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´╗┐Title: Warren Commission (2 of 26): Hearings Vol. II (of 15)
Author: Kennedy, The President's Commission on the Assassination of President
Language: English
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www.history-matters.com.



    INVESTIGATION OF
    THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

    HEARINGS
    Before the President's Commission
    on the Assassination
    of President Kennedy

PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a
Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating
to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and
S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon
the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine
witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas

_Volume_ II


UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.


U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S.
Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402



    PRESIDENT'S COMMISSION
    ON THE
    ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY


    CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_

    SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL
    SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER
    REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS
    REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD
    MR. ALLEN W. DULLES
    MR. JOHN J. McCLOY


    J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_


    _Assistant Counsel_

    FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS
    JOSEPH A. BALL
    DAVID W. BELIN
    WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr.
    MELVIN ARON EISENBERG
    BURT W. GRIFFIN
    LEON D. HUBERT, Jr.
    ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr.
    WESLEY J. LIEBELER
    NORMAN REDLICH
    W. DAVID SLAWSON
    ARLEN SPECTER
    SAMUEL A. STERN
    HOWARD P. WILLENS[A]

[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the
Department of Justice.


    _Staff Members_

    PHILLIP BARSON
    EDWARD A. CONROY
    JOHN HART ELY
    ALFRED GOLDBERG
    MURRAY J. LAULICHT
    ARTHUR MARMOR
    RICHARD M. MOSK
    JOHN J. O'BRIEN
    STUART POLLAK
    ALFREDDA SCOBEY
    CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr.


Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be found
in the Commission's _Report_.



Preface


The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume II:
James Herbert Martin, who acted for a brief period as the business
manager of Mrs. Marina Oswald; Mark Lane, a New York attorney; William
Robert Greer, who was driving the President's car at the time of the
assassination; Roy H. Kellerman, a Secret Service agent who sat to the
right of Greer; Clinton J. Hill, a Secret Service agent who was in
the car behind the President's car; Rufus Wayne Youngblood, a Secret
Service agent who rode in the car with then Vice President Johnson;
Robert Hill Jackson, a newspaper photographer who rode in a car at the
end of the motorcade; Arnold Louis Rowland, James Richard Worrell, Jr.,
and Amos Lee Euins, who were present at the assassination scene; Buell
Wesley Frazier, who drove Lee Harvey Oswald home on the evening of
November 21, and back to work on the morning of November 22; Linnie Mae
Randle, Buell Wesley Frazier's sister; Cortlandt Cunningham, a firearms
identification expert with the Federal Bureau of Investigation;
William Wayne Whaley, a taxicab driver, and Cecil J. McWatters, a
busdriver, who testified concerning Oswald's movements following the
assassination; Mrs. Katherine Ford, Declan P. Ford, and Peter Paul
Gregory, acquaintances of Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife; Comdr. James
J. Humes, Comdr. J. Thornton Boswell, and Lt. Col. Pierre A. Finck,
who performed the autopsy on the President at Bethesda Naval Hospital;
and Michael R. Paine and Ruth Hyde Paine, acquaintances of Lee Harvey
Oswald and his wife.



Contents

                                           Page
    Preface                                   v

    Testimony of--
      James Herber Martin (resumed)           1
      Mark Lane                              32
      Roy H. Kellerman                       61
      William Robert Greer                  112
      Clinton J. Hill                       132
      Rufus Wayne Youngblood                144
      Robert Hill Jackson                   155
      Arnold Louis Rowland                  165
      James Richard Worrell, Jr             190
      Amos Lee Euins                        201
      Buell Wesley Frazier                  210
      Linnie Mae Randle                     245
      Cortlandt Cunningham                  251
      William Wayne Whaley             253, 292
      Cecil J. McWatters                    262
      Katherine Ford                        295
      Declan P. Ford                        322
      Peter Paul Gregory                    337
      James J. Humes                        348
      J. Thornton Boswell                   376
      Pierre A. Finck                       377
      Michael R. Paine                      384
      Ruth Hyde Paine                       430


COMMISSION EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

    Exhibit No.:    Page
      328              1
      329              2
      330              2
      331             15
      332             22
      333             29
      334             38
      335             38
      336             38
      337             38
      338             38
      339             38
      340             38
      341             38
      342             38
      343             54
      344             64
      345             64
      346             65
      347             72
      348             72
      349             85
      350             86
      351             92
      352             95
      353             95
      354            155
      355            155
      356            189
      357            189
      358            189
      359            198
      360            198
      361            198
      362            198
      365            210
      366            210
      367            210
      368            257
      369            257
      370            261
      371            257
      372            268
      373            273
      374            274
      375            274
      376            275
      377            279
      378            282
      379            286
      380            286
      381-A          287
      382            292
      383-A          292
      384            340
      385            353
      386            353
      387            353
      388            353
      389            353
      390            353
      391            359
      392            362
      393            365
      394            365
      395            365
      396            367
      397            374
      398            374
      399            374
      400            380
      401            445
      402            455
      403            477
      404            479
      404-A          479
      405            480
      406            480
      407            483
      408            483
      408-A          483
      409            490
      409-A          490
      409-B          490
      410            494
      411            496
      412            496
      413            496
      414            496
      415            498
      416            498
      417            498
      418            498
      419            500
      420            501
      421            501
      422            502
      423            502
      424            502



Hearings Before the President's Commission

on the

Assassination of President Kennedy



_Thursday, February 27, 1964--Afternoon Session_

TESTIMONY OF JAMES HERBERT MARTIN RESUMED


The President's Commission reconvened at 3 p.m.

Mr. DULLES. Gentlemen, the Commission will come to order.

Are you ready to continue the testimony, Mr. Martin?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. DULLES. Will you carry forward, Mr. Redlich?

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I would like to hand you a group of newspaper
clippings which have not as yet been introduced in evidence and I would
ask you to look through them and to pick out any which you feel create
an image of Mrs. Marina Oswald which you feel does not conform to the
reality of her personality, as you know it, and ask you in regard to
each one to tell us in what respect the facts as reported in each of
these clippings do not conform to the real person as you know her.

Mr. DULLES. I assume we can avoid repetition, can't we?

Mr. REDLICH. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Incidents here have been touched on in other papers and we
don't need to touch them again.

Mr. REDLICH. Yes, Mr. Chairman.

During the intermission we have gone through all of the newspaper
clippings and eliminated the duplicate stories and hope to eliminate
duplicate facts as we go along.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, this one is inaccurate that it doesn't have anything
to do with her image, so to speak. It says she spent Christmas----

Mr. REDLICH. For the sake of the record if we are going to have comment
on them I would like to have them introduced as evidence because the
record wouldn't state what they are about.

Are you going to make comment?

Mr. MARTIN. Do you want me to?

Mr. REDLICH. If you are going to make comment about it, if you feel
there is some inaccuracy here then I would like to introduce that in
evidence, since apparently you are.

Mr. MARTIN. It is inaccurate as far as the date in the article is
concerned.

Mr. REDLICH. The witness has handed to us a newspaper story which we
have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 328.

Mr. DULLES. Could we have the inaccuracy mentioned here?

Mr. REDLICH. Yes, the headline of which is "Mrs. Oswald Will Bare Life
of Mate" and I request it be admitted in evidence.

Mr. DULLES. Any objection?

Mr. LEECH. No.

Mr. DULLES. It will be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 328 for
identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. REDLICH. I show you Commission Exhibit No. 328 and ask you if there
are any inaccuracies in that statement.

Mr. MARTIN. "Mrs. Oswald and Her Children Now Make Their Home at an
Undisclosed Hotel" which is inaccurate--"and it was in that motel room,
somewhere in the Dallas-Fort Worth area that the youngest Oswald child
spent her first Christmas. There was a tree, toys and even a visit from
Mrs. Oswald's brother who lives 30 miles to the north in Denton, Tex."

That was the inaccuracy that she spent Christmas not in a motel but in
our home.

Mr. DULLES. That is about from 3 o'clock in the afternoon as I recall
until 7:30 in the evening.

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir; that was Thanksgiving.

Mr. DULLES. That was Thanksgiving. Spent the whole day of Christmas in
your home?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, she lived there. She was at our home 24 hours a day.

This one--

Mr. REDLICH. The witness has produced before the Commission a newspaper
story which we have labeled as Commission Exhibit No. 329, the headline
of which reads, "Money Gifts to Tippit's Near $200,000 Mark."

Mr. Chairman, I request that Commission Exhibit No. 329 be admitted in
evidence.

Mr. DULLES. Any objection?

Mr. LEECH. No.

Mr. DULLES. It shall be admitted.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 329 for
identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I hand you Exhibit No. 329 and ask you if it
is inaccurate in any respect.

Mr. MARTIN. The article states that Mrs. Shirley Williamson, a Fort
Worth housewife, who felt compassion for the widow, Mrs. Oswald, and
the two babies said the fund for the Russian-born widow had reached
$76,000."

The fund that Mrs. Williamson collected amounted to some $2,600. That
was her total. That is the inaccuracy there.

Mr. DULLES. Is she referring to the funds she collected or the whole
collections?

Mr. MARTIN. Her funds. This has come up numerous times. We even called
her about it one time. She had given out press releases that she had
collected personally, I think, in excess of $8,000, whereas what she
was doing was adding what she had collected to what had already been
sent to Marina, and saying that she was holding that money.

Mr. DULLES. But even that total is exaggerated, is it not?

Mr. MARTIN. At that time, yes.

Mr. DULLES. The total collections?

Mr. MARTIN. At that time, yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, this article also makes reference to the fund
on behalf of the wife of Officer Tippit with which, of course, you have
no connection.

I would like to ask you, however, whether at the time you extended the
offer to Marina Oswald to live in your home you were aware of the fact
that there were funds being raised for Officer Tippit's wife.

Mr. MARTIN. I was undoubtedly aware of it but I don't recall any
conscious knowledge of it or thinking of it.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall whether you were aware at the time that
there were any funds coming in on behalf of Mrs. Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. You were not aware?

Mr. MARTIN. Not aware, no.

Mr. REDLICH. The witness has offered to, has presented to, the
Commission a newspaper story appearing in the Buffalo Evening News,
December 7, 1963, headline of which reads, "Oswald's Widow Reported
Hoping to be U.S. Citizen."

This story has been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 330 and I ask
that it be introduced in evidence.

Mr. DULLES. Any objection?

Mr. LEECH. None.

Mr. DULLES. Accepted.

(The newspaper article referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No.
330 for identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I show you Commission's Exhibit No. 330
and ask you if it is inaccurate in any respect to the best of your
knowledge?

Mr. MARTIN. In the second paragraph it says, "Mrs. Oswald, 23," which
is inaccurate--"Russian-born Mother of Three--"

Mr. REDLICH. Will you state the inaccuracy?

Mr. MARTIN. The age is inaccurate. She is 22, "Russian-born Mother of
Three" that is inaccurate. She is the mother of two, "burst into tears
when she learned at least $7,700 had been sent to her by sympathetic
Americans."

There was no burst of tears.

Mr. REDLICH. Will you tell the Commission what the reaction was?

Mr. MARTIN. I would say of happiness rather than--she was glad that
that was there, which is normal.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall anything she told you?

Mr. MARTIN. No. This was December 7. No, I have no recollection of
anything that she said?

Mr. DULLES. Didn't you testify before, maybe it is with regard to
another or similar clipping, that she had some reference to the silly
Americans who were giving this money?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, it was a comment she had made at sometime or another.
I don't know whether it was during this particular thing or not. I
think it was further on.

Mr. DULLES. On a similar occasion?

Mr. MARTIN. A little later date, yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, you have commented on the respects in which
the newspaper clippings were at variance with the facts about Marina
Oswald as you knew them.

Are there any other facts which perhaps were not reflected in these
clippings but which you might be aware of in respect to which the
public image of Marina Oswald differed from the true person that you
knew on the basis of your contact with her?

Mr. MARTIN. No. Of course, she is not the least bit frugal. She spends
money quite freely, which it is her money to spend, but it won't last
very long at the rate it is going.

Mr. REDLICH. In connection with that did Marina Oswald ever discuss
with you the financial difficulties she may have encountered while she
was married to Lee Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She remarked one time that she had always wished for
$500 just to do with as she wanted. She also mentioned that the small
amount of money that it took them to live upon. She said it ran between
$130 and $135 a month.

Representative FORD. Did she complain about this limited amount?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I asked her how she could live on that little and she
said well, all they had was rent and food, and occasionally she would
get a dress or get a pair of shoes. She said that she didn't object to
it.

Representative FORD. But when more money became available she found
ways and means of spending it?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Well, she mentioned one time to me that--I told her
she was spending too much money, and she said, "Well, when it is all
gone I will go to work." That is----

Mr. DULLES. That is a little Russian, may I say for the record.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, this Commission has recovered information to
the effect that the public announcements which you made concerning the
amount of funds which had been collected on Marina Oswald's behalf
actually reflected figures that were less than the amount which had
actually been collected on her behalf.

Without getting into specific figures at this time, are these reports
correct in your opinion?

Mr. MARTIN. Which report?

Mr. REDLICH. The report----

Mr. MARTIN. Oh, yes, we were obtaining a smaller figure, that is true.

Mr. REDLICH. That is true. Did you consult with Marina Oswald on this
policy on reporting to the press a lesser figure than had actually been
collected?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. What was your reason for doing it?

Mr. MARTIN. To--well, the money she had collected was considerable, and
most people in their life don't accumulate that much money in their
entire lifetime.

What we were trying to do for her was to build enough of a--enough
capital to furnish her from the interest a steady income. And by
keeping the figure down figured it would increase.

Mr. REDLICH. I don't want to put words in your mouth. Could you be a
little more specific about your reason?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, so people would keep contributing to her cause.

Mr. REDLICH. And she was in accord with this policy of keeping the
public amount at a low figure so that people would contribute to her
cause?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. I would like to revert to a point that you made this
morning to clear up the record. You said that you left your job at the
Six Flags Inn Motel because of your obligations to Marina Oswald. Did
you leave the job voluntarily or were you fired?

Mr. MARTIN. I left voluntarily. I actually left on the 15th of
December, and I had a week's vacation coming, they gave me that which
paid me to the 1st of January.

Mr. REDLICH. When you met Mrs. Oswald in late November and in your
conversations with her at that time, did she discuss with you the fact
of her husband's trip to Mexico?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Are you now----

Mr. MARTIN. She did at a later date, sometime in January before she
went to the Commission.

Mr. REDLICH. When did you first learn of Lee Oswald's trip to Mexico?

Mr. MARTIN. I guess it was from newspaper accounts.

Mr. REDLICH. When you read it in the newspapers did you ask Marina
about it?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. What prompted you to discuss with Marina in January the
question of her knowledge about it?

Mr. MARTIN. Let's see--she told me when the FBI was questioning her
one day, she told me that they had information that he had attempted
suicide, and that particular day she didn't want to see the FBI at all,
and she was a little bit unhappy with them and I just asked her what
else did she learn.

Mr. REDLICH. Who else was present at this conversation?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't think anybody.

Mr. REDLICH. Just you and Mrs. Oswald?

Mr. DULLES. Who was this who had attempted suicide, I didn't catch that?

Mr. MARTIN. Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. DULLES. At what time?

Mr. MARTIN. That was in Russia sometime before, I think before he met
her.

Mr. DULLES. And she said she had heard this from the FBI or the FBI had
asked her about it?

Mr. MARTIN. The FBI had read, I think, in his manuscript that he had
attempted suicide.

Mr. DULLES. And they asked her about it?

Mr. MARTIN. She didn't know that. Yes. And at that time I asked her if
she learned anything else, and she said no, but that they still didn't
know that she knew that he had gone to Mexico, and at that time we
were talking about the Commission, that general area of time, and I
mentioned to be sure to tell the truth to the Commission.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask her why she had not revealed knowledge of her
trip--of her knowledge of Lee Oswald's trip to Mexico?

Mr. MARTIN. I can't recall exactly whether I did or not.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask her?

Mr. MARTIN. I have a recollection but I have no idea what was said.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you and she discuss the purpose of Lee Oswald's trip
to Mexico?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you say you advised her to tell this Commission about
that trip to Mexico?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. When you were here and she testified did you inquire of
her as to whether in fact she did tell this Commission about the trip
to Mexico?

Mr. MARTIN. I inquired of John Thorne and he said that she had.

Mr. REDLICH. But in connection with the Nixon incident, you indicated
earlier in your testimony that you had not inquired of her as to
whether she had told this Commission about the Nixon incident.

Mr. MARTIN. Right.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you think that the Nixon incident was of less
importance than the Mexican trip?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I didn't quite believe the Nixon incident.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you believe it now?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know. I don't know if there is any corroboration
other than her say so.

Mr. REDLICH. It was because you had doubts about the actual existence
of the incident that you didn't pursue with her the question as to
whether she should tell this Commission about it?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I didn't tell her not to say anything about it. I
didn't mention it specifically at all. The only thing I told her to do
was to tell the Commission the truth in all cases.

Mr. REDLICH. At the conclusion of each day's testimony while she was
here before this Commission did you discuss the nature of her testimony
with her?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I asked her how the day went. And she would tell me,
"fine," and that was the end of it.

Mr. REDLICH. But you did inquire specifically about the Mexico trip?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Because I knew she lied about that to the FBI.

Mr. REDLICH. Are there any other incidents you knew she had lied about
to the FBI?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. That is the only one?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you and Marina Oswald ever discuss the question of her
husband's rifle practice?

Mr. MARTIN. No. The only time I recall that ever being asked of her was
at the press conference here in Washington, and I never specifically
asked her at all, whether he practiced.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever discuss with her the question of Lee Oswald's
ownership of a rifle?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. When you discussed the General Walker incident with her,
did you discuss his ownership of a rifle?

Mr. MARTIN. No. The only thing, I think about the only thing I asked
her about that was how he got there and how he got back.

Mr. REDLICH. What did she say?

Mr. MARTIN. She said he walked and took the bus.

Mr. REDLICH. And you didn't ask her what weapon he had shot at General
Walker with?

Mr. MARTIN. No. That was in the newspaper, it was a rifle. And there
were many things I didn't ask about because I was previously informed
through the news or I thought I was anyway.

Mr. REDLICH. You specifically, with regard to the rifle, you are
telling this Commission that you had no conversations with Marina
Oswald concerning her husband's practice with the rifle either in
Dallas or in New Orleans.

Mr. MARTIN. Let's see--I think I did discuss with her one time at the
rifle range out in Grand Prairie was it, wherever it was, that the
owner had seen Lee Harvey Oswald out there with a rifle, and he drove
up in a car.

Mr. REDLICH. Who is "they"?

Mr. MARTIN. The owner of the rifle range.

Mr. REDLICH. You say they drove up in a car?

Mr. MARTIN. He drove up in a car.

Mr. REDLICH. The owner of the rifle range?

Mr. MARTIN. No; Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. REDLICH. Drove to the rifle range in a car?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. And----

Mr. DULLES. Did he drive himself?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, this is a report from the rifle range owner who said
he had seen Lee Harvey Oswald there on numerous occasions practicing,
and that he drove up in a car by himself. He always came by himself,
and I did ask her if he could drive and she said no, definitely.

Mr. REDLICH. Where did you read this report or where did you hear about
it?

Mr. MARTIN. It was right after the start there, in the Dallas papers.

Mr. REDLICH. This was something you read. This was not a personal
conversation you had with the owner of the rifle range?

Mr. MARTIN. No, it was a newspaper account.

Mr. REDLICH. Were there any other conversations you had with Mrs.
Oswald concerning rifle practice?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you have any conversations with her concerning Lee
Oswald's ability as a rifleman?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Oswald ever discuss with you the fears that she
claims to have had that Lee Oswald would attempt to kill a public
figure as a result specifically of the Walker incident?

Mr. MARTIN. No, other than when she told me that she told him that
if he tried anything similar to the Walker incident she would have
him arrested. And she never mentioned to me a particular figure that
he would do anything like that. She evidently had it though or she
wouldn't have made the threat to him.

Mr. REDLICH. Other than the Nixon incident, and the Walker incident,
Mrs. Oswald never related to you any other specific incident with
regard to the attempt to take the life of anyone?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Representative FORD. Did Mrs. Oswald, Marina, ever indicate to you
her feeling toward guns; did she ever indicate any apprehension about
having one in the house?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Representative FORD. Related to rifles, pistols?

Mr. MARTIN. I have a 22 rifle in the house, for instance. Of course,
she may never have seen it. But I don't believe the question ever came
up at all.

Representative FORD. She never indicated to you that she had told Lee
Harvey Oswald that she was apprehensive about his use of a gun or his
having a gun in the household?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I would like to ask you whether Mrs. Oswald
ever discussed with you any aspects of the life of Marina Oswald and
Lee Harvey Oswald while they were in Russia.

Mr. MARTIN. Let's see now--she mentioned one time to both my wife and
I that Lee had gone to Moscow, I believe, and an old boy friend called
her up and she went out with him while Lee was gone.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she indicate to you at that time the purpose of Lee's
trip to Moscow?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she indicate to you whether she had told Lee about her
going out with this old boy friend?

Mr. MARTIN. She said she did tell him.

Mr. REDLICH. By the way, would you recall when Lee made this trip to
Moscow?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't think she mentioned the date at all. She may
have but I don't recall.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she indicate in connection with this trip of Lee
Oswald to Moscow that she herself subsequently went to Moscow while he
was there?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I think she said he was gone one day or one night and
came back the next day.

Mr. REDLICH. So that on the basis of your recollection, if there was a
trip in which Lee Oswald went to Moscow and she joined him there this
was a different trip from the one you are talking about?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Is that right?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Just to make sure of this you say to the best of your
recollection she said he went there for one day and returned?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Can you think of any other aspects of their life in the
Soviet Union that Marina discussed with you.

Mr. MARTIN. He used to like her aunt. Now, which aunt I don't know.
Yes, I do. It is the aunt that is working as a secretary and her
husband is on a pension. She has an aunt and an uncle by blood.

Now, the aunt's husband is on a pension, and the uncle's--The uncle is
a lieutenant colonel in the Soviet Army.

Mr. REDLICH. Now, the aunt and uncle that you say she liked very much,
is this the aunt and uncle with whom she was living at the time she met
Lee Oswald or is this a different aunt and uncle?

Mr. MARTIN. That was all very--always confusing to me because she
wouldn't call the spouse of the aunt, for instance, her uncle, and I
couldn't tell all the time which party she was talking about.

Mr. DULLES. These were both relatives to Marina, therefore, they were
not married.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, no; they were not married to each other.

Mr. DULLES. That is what I mean, yes.

Mr. MARTIN. There were two couples, and the aunt in one couple and the
uncle in the other couple. But she didn't refer to the opposite spouse
as an aunt and uncle.

Mr. REDLICH. Does the name Berlov refresh your recollection any?

Mr. MARTIN. Berlov?

Representative FORD. Did Marina ever indicate to you anything about her
education, what school she attended?

Mr. MARTIN. No, just the school of pharmacy, and she compared her grade
school or our grade school, which is, I guess similar to our grade
school in high school or junior high, anyway.

Representative FORD. She only referred to the pharmacy training?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. As any special training she received?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. But she did discuss that with you?

Mr. MARTIN. Not at length. Just stated the fact that she had finished
pharmacy school.

Representative FORD. But she didn't discuss any other training or
schooling of a special nature.

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Representative FORD. Did she ever discuss any special training that Lee
might have had while he was in Russia?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Representative FORD. Did she ever discuss Lee's employment while he was
in Russia?

Mr. MARTIN. Only that he was unhappy where he was working.

Representative FORD. Did she tell you where he worked, the kind of work
he was doing?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know, I have an idea it was in a factory of some
kind, whether she told me that or whether it was an assumption, I don't
know.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she ever discuss their apartment, their living
quarters in Minsk?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, she said she had a one-room apartment, and had a
balcony on it, and that as soon as the baby was born they were going to
move to a larger one. I questioned her about that because I understand
it is quite difficult to get more than a one-room apartment in Russia
and she said, well, Lee was an American and he could get things the
Russians couldn't get.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Oswald give you the impression that in general
she and Lee Oswald had better treatment than other Russians?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and actually her past life even before she met Lee
seemed a little bit strange to me, going to the opera, taking vacations
and holidays as she says. I understand it is quite expensive to go to
the opera, and she was making, what did she say, 45 rubles a month, and
she would take a girl friend with her when she went to the opera.

Now, how much that cost, I don't know.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever question her about her financial situation in
Russia?

Mr. MARTIN. I asked her how she could afford it and she said she got
by. She was living at home or with her aunt and uncle. So I imagine
their expenses there weren't high.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she mention any extra income which Lee Harvey Oswald
may have had apart from his job?

Mr. MARTIN. No; I asked her about that specifically because I had heard
an account that he was supposed to be getting Western Union money
orders, and asked her about that. She didn't know what a Western Union
money order was, for one thing, so I reworded the question and asked if
he was getting money from anyone else other than where he was working,
and she said no.

Mr. REDLICH. This was true of this life in the Soviet Union?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, apparently.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss with you the uncle with whom she
lived who was apparently a lieutenant colonel in the Soviet army?

Mr. MARTIN. No; except she didn't like him.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she say why?

Mr. MARTIN. No. She preferred her aunt, who has the husband on the
pension.

Mr. REDLICH. Can you search your memory at this point and tell this
Commission anything that you have not yet told us about Marina's
conversations with you concerning her life in the Soviet Union?

Mr. MARTIN. Her aunt used to bring food and liquor home after parties
had at the government building where she was working. Other than
talking about--she pulled one tooth out before she came to the United
States. A tooth was either crooked or broken and she pulled the tooth
out. That caused the other one to twist. I don't know what that was.

Representative FORD. Did Marina ever indicate to you while she was in
the Soviet Union that she drank beer, wine, liquor?

Mr. MARTIN. Vodka.

Representative FORD. When she came to the United States, you could
observe it, did she drink beer, wine, liquor of any kind?

Mr. MARTIN. She drank, I guess she drank a bottle of beer every day,
and occasionally she would drink some vodka.

Representative FORD. But not a heavy drinker?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, have you ever been curious about how Mrs.
Oswald was ever able to leave the Soviet Union?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I wasn't, until Don Levine brought up the subject. Of
course, I have no idea what it entails to get into Russia or out of it
as far as that is concerned.

But according to Mr. Levine, it is extremely difficult for people to
get out of Russia, especially when they have had the training that
Marina has had.

Mr. REDLICH. By training you mean what?

Mr. MARTIN. Pharmacy. He said they spent quite a bit of money on her
training, and he doesn't understand how she got out of Russia on such
short notice.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever ask this question of Marina Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. She said that Lee arranged it, and that is all she would
say.

Mr. REDLICH. She never discussed any other aspect of her departure from
the Soviet Union?

Mr. MARTIN. No. Let's see, they were in Moscow, she waited a couple
of days while he was, how did she put it, collecting money or getting
money together to come over to the States. I have forgotten the name
of the hotel they stayed in. She even remarked they had pancakes every
morning and she didn't like pancakes.

Mr. REDLICH. In terms of her official negotiations to leave the Soviet
Union, you asked her nothing other than the question that I have
already discussed with you?

Mr. MARTIN. No, she said that Lee arranged everything.

Mr. REDLICH. I would like to ask you a few questions now about some of
the individuals that Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald knew in Fort Worth
and Dallas, and ask you in each case whether Marina Oswald discussed
any of these individuals with you.

The first is George Bouhe.

Mr. MARTIN. I know the name but I don't think Marina has ever mentioned
him; Katya Ford has though.

Mr. REDLICH. Are you personally acquainted with George Bouhe?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us what Katya Ford has told you about Mr.
Bouhe?

Mr. MARTIN. It was relating to Marina--I think Katya Ford and Bouhe are
friends, and they had been discussing Marina all the time she was in
seclusion, and wondering what had happened to her, where she was. Now
this was after the news was out where she was.

Mr. REDLICH. Are you acquainted with----

Mr. DULLES. Excuse me, by "in seclusion", you mean at the time she was
with you in your house?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and the press didn't know where she was.

Mr. DULLES. I see.

Mr. REDLICH. Are you acquainted with George De Mohrenschildt or his
wife Jean De Mohrenschildt?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever discussed either George or Jean De
Mohrenschildt with Marina Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever discussed George and Jean De Mohrenschildt
with anyone else?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. DULLES. Did you ever hear the name mentioned before?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I think I would remember that name.

Mr. REDLICH. Are you personally acquainted with Peter Gregory?

Mr. MARTIN. I met him once, maybe twice, at the Inn. He was
interpreting for Marina, for the Secret Service, I believe, before Lee
Gopadze got there.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you know who he is?

Mr. MARTIN. I understand he is a geologist, and he also teaches Russian.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss either Peter Gregory or Paul
Gregory with you?

Mr. MARTIN. She mentioned--I don't know which one.

Mr. REDLICH. One is the father and one is a son.

Mr. MARTIN. I think it is the older gentleman that I met. She mentioned
that she liked him.

Mr. REDLICH. The older gentleman?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. And I think she corresponded with him. I know she
corresponded with him.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any knowledge of Mr. Gregory's son?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever met him?

Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. REDLICH. You have had no conversations with anyone else about him?

Mr. MARTIN. No. We were--I think John Thorne and I were talking about
at sometime we may need an interpreter, and I mentioned his name in
that instance.

Mr. REDLICH. That would be the elder Mr. Gregory?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. But nothing on Paul Gregory.

Mr. REDLICH. Nothing on Paul Gregory?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Are you aware of the fact that Paul Gregory is a student
at the University of Oklahoma?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss with you the fact that she had
helped tutor the son of Peter Gregory?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Are you familiar with--strike that. Do you have any
personal acquaintanceship with Gary Taylor?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever heard the name of Gary Taylor?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Marina Oswald has never discussed that name with you?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you know Mrs. Elena Hall?

Mr. MARTIN. Elena Hall? No.

Mr. REDLICH. Has Marina ever discussed her with you?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. The name John R. Hall, who is the husband of Mrs. Elena
Hall?

Mr. MARTIN. No, it sounded a little familiar but I can't place anything
on it.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you know Mrs. Katherine Ford?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us how you came to know her?

Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, she had contacted Marina a couple of times by
letter, and----

Representative FORD. While she was staying at your home?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes--well, she sent the letter to Grand Prairie, the
letters, Christmas cards, and I think two letters after that. So I
called her and Marina wanted to, expressed a desire to, talk to her. So
I called her and Marina talked to her on the phone. I think every time
she talked to her she talked nearly an hour.

Representative FORD. In Russian or in English?

Mr. MARTIN. In Russian.

Mr. DULLES. Was it on the telephone?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever tell you the gist of these conversations?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever relate to you whether she had ever lived
in Mrs. Ford's home?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe she had for a very short time.

Mr. REDLICH. You mean Marina related this to you?

Mr. MARTIN. I think Mrs. Ford told me that.

Mr. REDLICH. How did you get this knowledge, from Marina or from Mrs.
Ford? Did you ever discuss this with Marina?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I know Marina likes her home, I mean likes the house
that they live in.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you ever ask Marina how it came about that she was
separated from her husband and living at the home of Mrs. Ford?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did any of Marina's other Russian-speaking friends in the
Dallas-Fort Worth area write letters to her while she was at your home?

Mr. MARTIN. Mrs. Paine wrote at least once a week and----

Mr. DULLES. Once a week?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Marina did not answer, didn't answer any of the
letters and didn't call her.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Paine attempt to reach Marina by phone?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, until I had my telephone number changed and then she
couldn't find the phone number so she came over to the house.

Mr. REDLICH. What happened when she came to the house?

Mr. MARTIN. Nothing, I let her in the house and Marina and the children
were back in the den and the Secret Service men went back into the den,
and I don't believe she knew that she was there.

Mr. DULLES. Was the change in number, did it have anything to do with
Marina as objecting to receiving the calls?

Mr. MARTIN. No. That was strictly because the press pressure.

Mr. DULLES. The presence of the press?

Mr. REDLICH. I would like to go back to this incident when Mrs. Paine
came to see Marina. You say Marina did not know that Mrs. Paine was
there?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, she knew it.

Mr. REDLICH. She knew that Mrs. Paine was there?

Mr. MARTIN. Mrs. Paine didn't know that Marina was there.

Mr. REDLICH. But Marina knew that Mrs. Paine was there?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina see Mrs. Paine at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you talk to Marina at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, before and after.

Mr. REDLICH. At the time Mrs. Paine was there did you personally tell
Marina that Mrs. Paine wanted to see her?

Mr. MARTIN. I told her before Mrs. Paine came in the door that Mrs.
Paine was here, and she said she didn't want to see her. She stayed in
the den, and Mrs. Paine was in the living room.

Mr. REDLICH. Then did you convey this message to Mrs. Paine yourself?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Who did?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, she came with the intention or for the purpose of
bringing a package to Marina that she had received in the mail, and I
don't believe she knew that Marina was living there. I told her at that
time that because of security that Marina wasn't seeing anyone but I
don't believe she knew that Marina was at that address until later.

Mr. REDLICH. When Mrs. Paine called your home prior to the change of
phone, did you speak to Mrs. Paine?

Mr. MARTIN. No, my wife did.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall the nature of the conversations between your
wife and Mrs. Paine as reported to you?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, let's see, she called and asked for Marina or asked
to get in touch with Marina. My wife gave me the number and I guess I
called her back.

Mr. REDLICH. You called Mrs. Paine back?

Mr. MARTIN. A day or two later, yes.

Mr. REDLICH. What did you say to her?

Mr. MARTIN. I told her that under the present circumstances she just
didn't want to see anybody, and also the security on her didn't permit
her to go out too far. That we could possibly arrange a meeting at some
middle point later on.

Mr. REDLICH. Was Marina free to see anyone she wanted to see?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. And the reason she didn't see Mrs. Paine was because she
didn't want to see Mrs. Paine?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I asked her several times to call her, at least call
Mrs. Paine and tell her she didn't want to see her, and she just
shrugged her shoulders and said she didn't want to talk to her.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever tell you why she didn't want to talk to
her?

Mr. MARTIN. She said something about Mrs. Paine talking too much, and
she didn't like Mrs. Paine's children.

Mr. REDLICH. Were you aware at the time that Marina had lived with Mrs.
Paine?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Were you aware at the time that Mrs. Paine had taken the
Oswald family to New Orleans and had----

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Gone to New Orleans and brought them back to Irving, Tex.?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, that is why I felt she owed Mrs. Paine something.

Mr. REDLICH. What was Marina's attitude toward your comments?

Mr. MARTIN. She just didn't want to talk to her.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you yourself ever meet Mrs. Paine?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Would you describe that meeting?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, the first time I met her was we went over to the
Paine's house to pick up some of Marina's belongings.

Mr. REDLICH. Who is "we"?

Mr. MARTIN. John Thorne and I.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall about when this was?

Mr. MARTIN. I guess it was about a week after she had moved in, maybe
shorter, maybe sooner than that. There was not much said at all at that
meeting. Then when she came out to the house she talked at length, but
it was----

Mr. REDLICH. There is another occasion when you say she came?

Mr. MARTIN. When she came to my house.

Mr. REDLICH. That was the same occasion that you referred to earlier
when she came to pick up a package?

Mr. MARTIN. To deliver a package.

Mr. REDLICH. To deliver a package, I am sorry. Could you relate what
happened at that time?

Mr. MARTIN. I was quite distracted by the children. It was rather a
stiff meeting or conversation.

Representative FORD. This was the meeting at Mrs. Paine's house?

Mr. MARTIN. No, my house.

Representative FORD. Your house?

Mr. MARTIN. Mrs. Paine brought, I think, a package and some food,
cookies, things like that, for Marina, and----

Mr. DULLES. Those are from Mrs. Paine to Marina, but the package was a
third----

Mr. MARTIN. The package came through the mail.

Mr. DULLES. That you understand, but the cookies came from Mrs. Paine.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

I believe she brought some toys for the children. What the toys were,
I don't recall. Her children were running back and forth through the
living room making quite a bit of noise.

Mr. DULLES. Mrs. Paine's children?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. And I wasn't really paying too much attention to what
she was saying. I was wanting her to leave. I didn't ask her to leave
but I wasn't saying much to foster the conversation. Then she left in,
I guess, 15 minutes.

Mr. REDLICH. What did Mrs. Paine say to you?

Mr. MARTIN. Oh, boy----

Mr. DULLES. Was she disturbed, I mean was she annoyed, visibly annoyed,
that Marina wouldn't see her. She didn't know Marina was in the house,
I realize that.

Mr. MARTIN. She didn't know Marina was in the house. I am certain she
didn't.

Mr. REDLICH. You mean her children were running around the house
though, weren't they?

Mr. MARTIN. Her children were running in the living room and dining
room.

Mr. DULLES. But not into the den?

Mr. MARTIN. But not into the den and kitchen.

Representative FORD. Do you have a door on the den so you can close the
den off?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She talked mostly about generalities and she would
like to see Marina to make sure she is well taken care of, and so on.
She was concerned about her. And she came back after that time, she
came back once more. I wasn't there. My wife answered the door and
didn't invite her in.

Mr. DULLES. How long a trip is it from your house to Mrs. Paine's,
roughly, a few miles?

Mr. MARTIN. No, a good 20 miles.

Mr. DULLES. A good 20 miles?

Mr. MARTIN. Because it is 30 miles out to the Inn, and she lives about
8 or 10 miles toward me from the Inn, so it is about 20 miles.

Mr. REDLICH. Your wife did not invite Mrs. Paine into the house at that
time?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Was this at Marina's urging?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Mrs. Paine was quite upset at that--that is what Wanda
said, she looked upset at that time.

Representative FORD. On this occasion, did Mrs. Paine know Marina was
in the house?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't believe so.

Mr. DULLES. Did she ask where she was, specifically?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. DULLES. She didn't ask?

Mr. REDLICH. What was the purpose of her visit?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't believe--let's see, she may have brought something
that day, too. I don't recall whether she did or not. I know right
after that, the Civil Liberties Union got into it. Well, Mark Lane, was
first.

Mr. REDLICH. You say right after that Mark Lane got into it?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Would you elaborate on that?

Mr. MARTIN. Mark Lane came to Dallas, and contacted John Thorne and I.
We met him at the Statler and talked to him at lunch, and he expressed
a desire to talk to Marina Oswald so that he could represent her
husband, defend her husband in a hearing, and we told him that we would
relay that information to her.

So we did, and she said that she didn't want to have any
representation. She didn't want any more----

Mr. REDLICH. You mean she didn't want any representation for Lee Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, she didn't want any more to do about it.

Representative FORD. Can you recall the date of this visit by Mr. Lane?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Representative FORD. Was it in December or January?

Mr. MARTIN. It was in January, I believe.

Mr. REDLICH. And you transmitted Mr. Lane's message to Marina?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and she said that she didn't want any representation
for Lee.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you tell her this in English?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and explained it to her, and at that time she could
understand.

Mr. DULLES. To your knowledge, did Marina ever meet Mr. Lane?

Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge, no.

Mr. REDLICH. And you also related the Ruth Paine, second Ruth Paine,
visit to your home to something which you referred to as the American
Civil Liberties Union business.

Mr. MARTIN. It was right after--these incidents happened rather
closely. The letter from the Civil Liberties Union--well, first we
received a telephone call from the Civil Liberties Union wanting to see
Marina Oswald.

Representative FORD. Telephone call from Dallas or New York, or what?

Mr. MARTIN. From Richardson, the same person who wrote the letter which
you have there. Do you have that?

Mr. REDLICH. We do have. We are inventorying many of these documents of
which the American Civil Liberties letter is one and we will introduce
it at an appropriate time.

Mr. MARTIN. Richardson is a suburb of Dallas. This gentleman called,
what was his name?

Mr. LEECH. I can't remember it.

Mr. REDLICH. Would it refresh your recollection if I mentioned the name
Olds?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Greg Olds. He called on the phone and wanted to see
Marina Oswald, wanted to make sure she was being properly represented,
that she knew her rights, and so on and so forth.

John Thorne talked to him, and told him that he represented Marina
Oswald, and that he was definitely sure that all her rights were being
observed.

Then I think there was another phone call from them still wanting to
see Marina Oswald, and I talked to Marina and she said well, she would
talk to him. So they arranged a meeting with a third party, I can't
remember his name, who was a minister of some kind, and then Marina
changed her mind and said no, she didn't want to go at all, she didn't
want to talk to any of them. So then they wrote the letter. They wrote
a letter to her in Russian and sent one to me in English, one to John
Thorne in English, and I believe one to the Secret Service and one to
the FBI.

Mr. LEECH. Do you want to mention about their press releases at this
time?

Mr. MARTIN. There were a number of press releases at that time also
that she was being held incognito and not able to----

Mr. REDLICH. You mean incognito or incommunicado?

Mr. MARTIN. Incommunicado.

Representative FORD. Press releases by whom?

Mr. MARTIN. The Civil Liberties Union, and so they sent this letter to
her and she answered it with a two-page letter in Russian.

Representative FORD. In Russian?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you have a copy of that two-page letter?

Mr. MARTIN. No. She wrote it, put it in an envelope, put a stamp on it
and I mailed it. I didn't open it or look in it in any way. And that
seemed to be the end of it, but they still persisted they wanted to see
her.

Mr. REDLICH. And the reason Marina did not see them was entirely her
own volition?

Mr. MARTIN. Her own.

Mr. DULLES. She never talked to you about what was in the letter?

Mr. MARTIN. No, she said she just told them she didn't want to see them.

Mr. DULLES. In two pages?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; This was quoted, a portion of the letter was
quoted, in the Worker.

Representative FORD. I suggest, Mr. Chairman, that we get, if possible,
a copy of the original of that letter.

Mr. MARTIN. You probably can get it from Greg Olds.

Mr. DULLES. Would you make a note of that. I think we should do that.

That was dated sometime in the middle of January?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe so. The letter you have--she wadded the letter
up that was written to her in Russian and threw it away, and I got it
back out, and asked her to go ahead and write them a letter so it would
quiet them. So she said she would and she wrote a letter, I think,
that night, so it would be within a couple of days of the date of that
letter, the English copy of which you have.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, if you would like, we could take a 3- or
4-minute recess and I could get the American Civil Liberties Union
letter to Marina Oswald and introduce it at this time for the sake of
clarity in the record.

Mr. DULLES. Good. It is a good time for a breather.

(Short recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. All right, gentlemen, the Commission will be in order.

You are familiar with, Mr. Dulles, you are familiar with, the hearing
up to date. You go right ahead and preside, if you will.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Redlich will you go right ahead with your questions?

Mr. REDLICH. I believe Congressman Ford, you said you wanted to ask
your questions prior to your leaving.

Representative FORD. Do you wish to have that letter entered as an
exhibit at this point before I ask several questions?

Mr. REDLICH. The witness has produced before this Commission a letter
which I now mark Commission Exhibit No. 331 on the Dallas Civil
Liberties Union stationery, addressed to Mr. John Thorne, James Martin,
Mr. Sorrels, Secret Service, Mrs. Lee H. Oswald, and the Federal Bureau
of Investigation.

I ask that it be introduced in evidence.

Mr. DULLES. Any objection?

Mr. LEECH. No.

Mr. DULLES. It will be introduced.

(The letter referred to was marked for identification as Commission
Exhibit No. 331 and received in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. Have you seen it?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chief Justice, we have introduced that because
just prior to the recess we were discussing it and Congressman Ford
indicated he had to leave I believe and I wanted to ask some questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask one question on this letter for clarification?
It is my understanding it is your belief that Mrs. Oswald received a
copy of this letter in Russian?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, she received a letter on this letterhead written in
Russian. Now whether it was an exact copy, I don't know.

Mr. DULLES. About the length of this letter as far as you could tell?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. At about the same time?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it was the same day.

Mr. DULLES. That was the letter she crumpled up and put in the
wastepaper basket?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. But you retrieved it from the wastepaper basket, did you
not say?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir, and asked her to answer it.

Mr. DULLES. Where is that copy that you retrieved from the wastepaper
basket?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know.

Mr. DULLES. Maybe reassigned to the wastepaper basket?

Mr. MARTIN. It may have been, yes.

Representative FORD. I believe that was the letter that Mr. Redlich
indicated he would get a copy from the Dallas Chapter of the American
Civil Liberties Union.

Mr. MARTIN. Her answer is what he wanted to get.

Mr. REDLICH. I think Congressman Ford is right. We might be able to get
both a copy of the letter and their answer.

Mr. DULLES. Their statement in this letter is the English of the
Russian translation which they sent to her. I think it would be
adequate, wouldn't it?

Mr. REDLICH. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. It seems to me it would be adequate for our purposes.

Mr. REDLICH. We will contact the Dallas Division on that.

Representative FORD. Marina testified here, and she has said elsewhere,
that based on the facts as she now knows them, she believes that Lee
was guilty of the assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. Was that her attitude when you first met her?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, when I first met her, we didn't converse very well at
all. There was lack of communication because of the language barrier,
and I didn't discuss it with her probably until the latter part of
December, although she was speaking fairly good English by the 15th of
December.

Representative FORD. When you first discussed it with her, what was her
attitude?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, she said she thought he was crazy.

Representative FORD. But did she indicate when you first discussed the
question of guilt or not being guilty, what was her attitude?

Mr. MARTIN. She thought he was guilty.

Representative FORD. The first time you discussed the matter?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. Did she indicate why?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I asked her why, and she said it was just a feeling.

Representative FORD. At that point had she----

Mr. MARTIN. A woman's feeling.

Representative FORD. At that point had she been given or shown the
evidence that had been accumulated by various agencies of the Federal
Government?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know. I assume she had through the FBI. The FBI
were showing her pictures and numerous things. I was not in on any of
the questioning at all.

Mr. DULLES. Had she read the papers or had them read to her as far as
you know at that period?

Mr. MARTIN. Some of them, yes.

Mr. DULLES. Newspapers, I mean.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. From that first conversation you had with her
about this matter, the guilt of Lee Harvey Oswald, she has never
changed her mind?

Mr. MARTIN. No, and I have never heard her say anything other than he
was guilty.

Representative FORD. Did you ever discuss with Marina the conversation
she had with Lee Harvey Oswald at the Dallas police station the day he
was apprehended or the day following. Or at any time prior to his death?

Mr. MARTIN. The only time she said anything about it was that he told
her not to worry and to make sure and get the--get June a pair of shoes.

Representative FORD. She told you that is what he said to her?

Mr. MARTIN. That is what he said, yes.

Representative FORD. There was nothing extraordinary that she told you
about the conversation?

Mr. MARTIN. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Other than what you have indicated?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. He said not to worry. Everything would be all right.

Representative FORD. Did you ever ask her about this conversation
that she had with Lee Harvey Oswald while he was at the Dallas police
station?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Representative FORD. As her manager, as the manager of Marina, did you
have anything to do with the change of her appearance? Many people
have said to me the first picture they saw of her and the subsequent
pictures they saw of her she was wearing different kind of clothes. She
had a different hair-do, and so forth. Did you have anything to do with
that?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. What was the purpose of that?

Mr. MARTIN. Just to change her general appearance so she wouldn't be
recognized when she went out.

Representative FORD. Did she agree to this, was she willing to do it?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She didn't like her haircut particularly.

Representative FORD. She liked the previous way it was?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Representative FORD. How about the change in clothes, the type that she
wore?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, of course, that was for the better.

Representative FORD. Did she like it?

Mr. MARTIN. She liked the clothes, yes.

Representative FORD. That is all.

Mr. MARTIN. She tried makeup but that didn't work, because she couldn't
stand makeup.

Mr. REDLICH. We previously asked you, Mr. Martin, about various people
that Marina Oswald knew in the Dallas-Fort Worth area and you have
indicated the extent to which you knew them personally and the extent
to which they had contacted Marina Oswald during the time she was in
your home.

Are there any other friends of Marina Oswald's rather than those I have
asked you about that you--who attempted to contact her while she was
living at your home?

Mr. MARTIN. Ilya, I believe it is Mamatav or Mamantov--he is of the
Dallas Police Department and he has asked of her how she is.

Mr. REDLICH. Has he ever seen her, to the best of your knowledge other
than in an official capacity?

(At this point, Congressman Ford left the hearing room.)

Mr. MARTIN. Well, one time when we went to Sears, Sears Roebuck in
Dallas, and walked into the store he was walking and practically ran
into her, and they said hello and passed the time of day and he left.

Mr. REDLICH. There were no other friends of hers that you know about
who attempted to see her or call her while she was living at your home?

Other than those we have already discussed on the record? If I
mentioned the name of Mr. or Mrs. Teofil Meller--the first name is
Teofil, the last name is Meller.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, there was someone that called the office one day and
had a rather odd name, was that Meller, and said that Marina wanted to
talk to her, and we took it just for a crank call. She wouldn't leave
the number or anything like that. I am not sure whether that was Meller.

(Discussion off the record.)

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. MARTIN. There was no telephone number involved.

Mr. REDLICH. You have discussed at length the attempt of Ruth Paine to
see Mrs. Oswald. Did Mike Paine ever attempt to see Mrs. Oswald while
she was living at your home?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever talked to Michael Paine?

Mr. MARTIN. No. When we went over to get the clothes, for instance, he
stood back--I don't believe he said anything at all. It was a very odd
situation. He was helping us move things but he didn't say anything.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina ever discuss Michael Paine with you?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Only Ruth Paine but not Michael Paine?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She said they were separated.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, did Marina ever discuss with you her husband's
desire to go to Cuba?

Mr. MARTIN. She said that he had wanted to go to Cuba because he
wanted--because he wasn't happy in Russia and he wasn't happy in the
United States and then she said he wouldn't be happy in Cuba either.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she ever discuss with you a plan to hi-jack a plane?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she ever indicate what steps he was taking to get to
Cuba?

Mr. MARTIN. No. Not at all.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any knowledge at all of any plans he was
making to get to and live in Cuba?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Ford has asked you about the conversations which
Marina had with Lee Oswald at the Dallas Police Station on November 23
and you have replied. I would like to ask you about any--your knowledge
about any conversation which Robert Oswald had with Lee Oswald while he
was in the custody of the Dallas Police prior to his death?

Mr. MARTIN. I have no knowledge at all of that.

Mr. REDLICH. You have never had any conversations with Robert Oswald
concerning his conversations with Lee Oswald.

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever talked to Mrs. Marguerite Oswald concerning
any conversations which she had with her son while he was in the
custody of the Dallas police?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you had any conversations at all with Mrs. Marguerite
Oswald concerning the facts surrounding the assassination of President
Kennedy?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't think any direct conversation, I mean between
she and I. I was present at times out there at the Inn when she was
talking to this person or that person. But I don't believe I have had
any direct conversation with her at all.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Marguerite Oswald ever discuss with you an
incident concerning a photograph which was supposed to have been shown
to her by agents of the FBI on November 23, 1963.

Mr. MARTIN. No, I have heard that through news media but that is the
only place I heard it.

Mr. REDLICH. You have no direct knowledge of that incident yourself.
Did Marina Oswald ever discuss that incident with you?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Marina Oswald ever discuss with you her
mother-in-law's allegations that Lee Oswald was acting as an agent of
the United States Government?

Mr. MARTIN. No. She mentioned only one incident where the FBI came
to their house when they were in Oak Cliff, and they took him down
to the car, I believe he was about ready to sit down to dinner when
they arrived, and they took him down to the car and talked to him, and
Marina was upset because dinner was spoiling, and I think that is the
only reference she has made to anything like that.

Mr. REDLICH. She has never discussed with you the specific claims of
Marguerite Oswald in that respect?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. In the course of your conversations with Marina Oswald or
in the course of the preparation of any stories or releases on Mrs.
Oswald's behalf have you ever discussed with Mrs. Oswald the events of
November 21 and the morning of November 22?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you relate those conversations to us?

Mr. MARTIN. He came home Thursday night, which was unusual.

Mr. REDLICH. Just so the record is clear, I hope you are relating to us
now what Marina Oswald has related to you and not what you have read in
any publication.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. All right.

Mr. MARTIN. And, let's see, this was sometime in December that she was
telling me this--no, I remember when it was, when she was moving from
the Inn to my home.

Mr. REDLICH. By the Inn you mean----

Mr. MARTIN. The Inn of the Six Flags. She was in the back seat and Leon
Gopadze was in the front seat talking with her, and she told him that
he had come home Thursday night and that----

Mr. DULLES. In Russian?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. This was a conversation in Russian?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Lee translated it for me, Gopadze translated it.

Mr. DULLES. Afterwards or as it took place.

Mr. MARTIN. As it took place, well, it was immediately afterwards, and
she made a comment that he had left his wedding band on the dresser, I
think, and she got up the next morning she found his wedding band on
the dresser, which was strange.

Now, that is the only thing that relates to that period that I have
heard her say. Now, I didn't actually hear her say that.

Mr. REDLICH. You have had no other conversations with her with regard
to the period of November 21 and the morning of November 22?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any knowledge of the story which Marina Oswald
prepared in Russian and which she has sent to this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you state the extent of your knowledge?

Mr. MARTIN. I knew it was written, and written by her, and that is
about the extent of it.

Mr. REDLICH. Was it ever translated for you?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, we have part of it translated, a portion of it.

Mr. REDLICH. Are there any parts of that story which you now believe to
be inaccurate?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't have the whole thing translated, but I think
everything that is translated, I have no reason to doubt.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you assist Marina Oswald in the preparation for her
television appearance in January on CBS television?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Are there any portions of that interview which you now
believe to be inaccurate in any respect?

Mr. MARTIN. No. We set a format for CBS to use, specific questions,
and Marina was not prompted as to the answers to give. Those were
impromptu. But we went over the ones with her off the camera, and asked
her the questions so that she would understand them, and then she
answered them, and the second time she did it on camera.

Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge and recollection those
answers were accurate?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I can't remember them. But none of them struck me as
being----

Mr. REDLICH. Apart from the newspaper clippings which we went through
this morning and afternoon, are you familiar with any other narrative
prepared by or for Marina Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. Prepared by or for?

Mr. REDLICH. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. You mean other than newspaper articles?

Mr. REDLICH. Other than the newspaper articles which we discussed this
morning and this afternoon.

Mr. MARTIN. Life magazine.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you have anything to do with the recent story in Life
magazine?

Mr. MARTIN. No, we had nothing on that other than the picture. Time
magazine, she was interviewed for Time magazine.

Mr. REDLICH. When was that?

Mr. MARTIN. Saturday--Friday--she was here in Washington.

Mr. REDLICH. If I may refresh your recollection, she completed her
testimony before this Commission at approximately 5:30 on Thursday,
February 6.

Mr. MARTIN. Well, I believe it was Friday. We held a press conference
on Friday afternoon, and I think it was Friday night then.

Mr. REDLICH. It would be sometime after the completion of her testimony
is that correct?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Were you with her during the course of that interview?

Mr. MARTIN. It must have been Thursday night. It was Thursday night
because Secret Service was still with her.

Mr. REDLICH. You believe this interview took place on Thursday night?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. That would be February 6?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Were you with her during the course of this interview?

Mr. MARTIN. Part of the time. I left John Thorne and Marina and the
Time reporter at the table. June was restless, and I was walking her
around the restaurant.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you read the interview?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Are there any portions of it which you now believe to be
inaccurate, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't think so. I would have to re-read it to make it
definite, make a definite statement on it.

Mr. REDLICH. On the basis of conversations which you had during the
course of the testimony of Marina Oswald before this Commission and on
the basis of conversations which you have had subsequent to that time,
do you have any opinion concerning the truthfulness of the testimony
which she presented before this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I think primarily she is truthful, and I think that
under oath she would tell the truth.

Mr. REDLICH. Are you still Mrs. Oswald's business representative?

Mr. MARTIN. According to the contract, yes. According to my contract
with her.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you received any communication from her which raises
questions as to whether you are still her business representative?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Are we really concerned with that?

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, I intend to ask the witness why he was
discharged in terms of whether it had anything to do with any business
negotiations or anything to do with the testimony of Mrs. Oswald before
this Commission.

The CHAIRMAN. You can ask him if it has anything to do with her
testimony. We are not interested in her business affairs.

Mr. REDLICH. I merely wanted to establish the fact of----

The CHAIRMAN. This thing can go on interminably with all this minutia
and things that don't bear on what we are here to find out, whatever
his business relations are with Mrs. Oswald, it seems to me is his
business and not ours.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Mrs. Oswald's attempt to terminate the relationship
with you relate in any way to her testimony before this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. No. There was no reason given.

Mr. REDLICH. Did it relate in any way, in your opinion, to any
information which you may have given to anyone else with regard to
your knowledge of the facts concerning the assassination of President
Kennedy.

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Would you tell us about your association with him?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, it is a very minor association. I had been working in
the Statler Hotel in Dallas as assistant manager for maybe six months
before I met him, and met him through some of the other people in the
hotel.

Mr. DULLES. What year was this?

Mr. MARTIN. About 1955.

Mr. DULLES. I just want to get the general area.

Mr. MARTIN. 1955 or 1956. And as a club manager, I was club manager
in Dallas also, and didn't associate with him at all, even on a
bilateral communication through the clubs. But it was just a nodding
acquaintance, you might say. I knew him by his first name. He knew me
by my first name and we spoke when we saw each other and I think I have
been in his place twice.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall the approximate dates of those visits?

Mr. MARTIN. Let's see, once in 1962. I had some gentlemen from New
Orleans with me. They were visiting Dallas on business at the Inn of
the Six Flags, and they wanted to see the Carousel.

Mr. DULLES. That is what you mean by his place?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. So I called Jack Ruby and asked if it would be all
right if I brought them down. We stayed approximately an hour and a
half.

The other time was during the daytime, let's see, as it was then, I
had--I was walking in that area and just stopped in to say hello. The
club was closed at that time, not closed for business but it was before
opening hours.

Mr. REDLICH. Those are the only times you have been in Jack Ruby's
business establishment?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you consider yourself a friend of his?

Mr. MARTIN. No. An acquaintance.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you gone out socially?

Mr. MARTIN. No. He came out to the Inn one time with some little
gimmick. It is called a Detwist Board. It is quite a piece of plywood
about like this with a round plate on the bottom of it, seated in ball
bearings and you are supposed to stand on this thing to twist, and came
out to ask me to see who to ask at the park to merchandise it, the Six
Flags over Texas Amusement Park, and I told him. Now, whether he went
over there or not, I don't know.

Mr. REDLICH. I understand that you have had a conversation with an aid
of General Walker concerning the General Walker incident.

Would you tell the Commission about that?

Mr. MARTIN. They contacted us----

Mr. REDLICH. Who is "they"?

Mr. MARTIN. General Walker's aide, Mr. Moore or Morse, a tall thin
gentleman, about 55 or 60, and wanted actually an interview with Marina
which we didn't think was necessary.

They came out to John Thorne's office and we sat and talked. They were
of the opinion--what they were trying to do was find out who else was
involved--this was right after the announcement was made in the paper
about Lee Oswald shooting at Walker. They were trying to find out who
else was involved because General Walker is still in fear of his life.

Mr. DULLES. This was some time before the 22d.

Mr. MARTIN. No, it was after.

Mr. DULLES. After November 22?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir. This was after the announcement was made in the
paper that----

Mr. DULLES. Oh, yes.

Mr. MARTIN. That Lee Oswald had attacked him.

Mr. DULLES. The actual attack was in April. This was after the
newspaper announcement.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. After the newspaper announcements that Lee had tried to
kill him which was after the assassination?

Mr. MARTIN. That is correct.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. And they just wanted verification actually that or to try
to get verification as to how many people were involved, and we told
them that there was just one person involved.

Mr. REDLICH. At the time did you ask Marina about this?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. And this is what she told you?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. The persons involved in the Walker incident?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. She said that Lee did it alone without any help. There
was no one with him.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I have at this time no further questions other
than those which may be suggested by a perusal of the records which you
have forwarded to this Commission.

As we indicated in the brief recess earlier, Mr. Dulles is able to be
here at 9 o'clock this evening, and I would envisage then a very brief
session at which time your testimony would be completed.

Mr. MARTIN. All right.

Mr. REDLICH. Are there any questions that anyone would like to ask of
Mr. Martin at this time?

The CHAIRMAN. Would you like to ask your client any questions?

Mr. LEECH. No. I am not going to make that mistake.

(Laughter.)

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. DULLES. I have no questions. I will reserve them for tonight. I
don't think I have any further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rhyne, do you have any questions you would like to
ask. Mr. Rankin, are you through for the day?

Mr. RANKIN. Until 9 o'clock.

The CHAIRMAN. Well then, gentlemen, we will adjourn until 9 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 5:15 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)



Evening Session

TESTIMONY OF JAMES HERBERT MARTIN RESUMED


The President's Commission reconvened at 9:20 p.m.

Mr. DULLES. The Committee will come to order.

Will you continue with the testimony?

Mr. REDLICH. Thank you, Mr. Dulles.

Mr. Martin, at our last session I asked you whether you knew Jack Ruby,
and you replied that you did. You indicated the brief contact that you
have had with him and the two times, I believe, that you have been to
his business establishment?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Apart from your own personal contact with Jack Ruby, do
you have any other information about him and his activities which you
would like to present before this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. No, nothing that I definitely know about him. It is just he
is a city character. He is very friendly to everyone.

Mr. REDLICH. Please understand I am not asking you for rumors or that
type of thing.

Mr. MARTIN. No, I know. Well, just what I know of him, he seems very
friendly to everyone, and he is always around. You are liable to see
him anywhere.

Mr. REDLICH. Has he ever been to the motel that you have?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, I mentioned that.

Mr. REDLICH. Oh, yes.

Mr. MARTIN. He brought that twist board out there one time.

Mr. REDLICH. Never been there as a guest?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. I hand you a copy of an invoice for a Revere recorder and
a 1,200-foot reel of recording tape, and ask you if you have ever seen
this?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. That is a tape recorder that I rented and recorded
the----

Mr. REDLICH. I will ask you about it shortly. I would just like to know
if you are familiar with it.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, I am marking this as Commission Exhibit No.
332, and ask that it be admitted in evidence.

Mr. DULLES. Any objection?

Mr. LEECH. No, sir.

Mr. DULLES. It may be admitted.

(The tape recorder and tape invoice referred to were marked
Commission's Exhibit No. 332 for identification and received in
evidence.)

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 332, and
ask you to tell the Commission the conditions under which this invoice
arose?

Mr. MARTIN. We had Marina's manuscript interpreted by Ilya Mamantov,
and this was part of it. He was only able to interpret about half of it.

Mr. REDLICH. He interpreted it and put it on tape?

Mr. MARTIN. And we recorded that on tape as he interpreted it.

Mr. DULLES. How do you mean interpreted?

Mr. MARTIN. He read it in English?

Mr. DULLES. Oh, I see, translated it.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. From Russian into English?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. When I asked you this afternoon about your knowledge as to
the accuracy of that story, I take it your reply was based upon this
translation?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. And this only encompasses about half of the entire story,
is that right?

Mr. MARTIN. It is more than half, it is about 15 pages, I guess.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she consult with you at all in the preparation of that
story?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. And there is nothing on this tape other than the English
translation of that Russian story?

Mr. MARTIN. That is true.

Mr. DULLES. Do we have that translation as well as the copy of the
original?

Mr. REDLICH. Yes, Mr. Chairman, we have the original in Russian and
then it was translated by Mr. Gopadze, of the Secret Service.

Mr. MARTIN. Actually our translation is very poor. He was not able to
translate properly into English a lot of the phrases.

Mr. DULLES. Who is "he," Illa? Isn't that Ilya, by the way?

Mr. MARTIN. I am not sure.

Mr. DULLES. That is generally the Russian, I don't know.

Mr. RANKIN. That is right.

Mr. MARTIN. It might be.

Mr. DULLES. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. But he is professor at SMU. He has a list of titles that
long. He is very well thought of. I think he works for Sun Oil Company,
and is a well-respected individual. His wife and his mother, I believe,
teach Russian also. I think his mother taught Mrs. Paine a good deal of
her Russian.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, I would like to show you Commission Exhibit
No. 325 which was introduced earlier today. Mr. Leech, I believe you
have a photostat of this. If you could hand it to me during the course
of this questioning. I would appreciate it.

Mr. LEECH. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Thank you.

Could you tell the Commission what this document purports to state, and
then I will ask you about individual items.

Mr. MARTIN. These are contracts that we have made both in writing and
verbally for Marina Oswald's right, her story rights.

Mr. REDLICH. And the first item appearing on Commission Exhibit No. 325
is a contract with Texitalia Films.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Would you describe the terms and conditions of that
contract?

Mr. MARTIN. Texitalia Films is planning a 60-minute technicolor
documentary to start. They will pay $75,000 for World-Wide movie and
the TV rights.

Mr. DULLES. Excuse me, is this a documentary of Marina's life?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Any movie or television appearances Marina would be
paid $7,500 plus expenses for each appearance. Then for each personal
appearance, for instance, the film opens in St. Louis on such and such
a date and they would like for her to be there to make a personal
appearance for the showing, the opening of the film, she would receive
$1,500 plus expenses for each public appearance of that nature.

Mr. REDLICH. And this contract according to this exhibit was signed on
February 11, 1964?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. LEECH. By her?

Mr. MARTIN. No, by me acting for her.

Mr. REDLICH. By you acting on behalf of Mrs. Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, in accordance with my contract with her.

Mr. REDLICH. The second item appearing here is a contract with Life
magazine. Would you tell the Commission about that?

Mr. MARTIN. Life magazine purchased the rights, North American rights
on a photograph of Lee Harvey Oswald with a rifle and pistol, primarily
for their use on a cover issue.

Mr. DULLES. That is what appeared on the recent cover issue, I guess,
it was 2 weeks ago.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Now, that $5,000 has been paid. We have the $5,000 in an escrow account.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you actually have in your possession the photograph, a
copy of which appeared on the cover of Life magazine?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us how this contract was consummated, in
view of the fact that Life magazine apparently printed on its cover a
photograph which you never possessed?

Mr. MARTIN. They knew the photographs belonged to Marina. They have a
common law copyright, and the only way they could legally use the film
is to purchase the rights from Marina.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Life magazine indicate to you where they obtained the
photograph?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you had conversations with other publications
concerning that photograph?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I made the contact with the London Daily Mirror
for the purchase of the British Commonwealth rights on that same
photograph, and they guaranteed $2,200 plus 50-50 split on what they
sold in the Commonwealth. It was restricted to the Commonwealth only.

However, the London Daily Mail came out with the photograph prior to
the Mirror, and I was informed by Mr. Weggand of the London Daily
Express that the Detroit Free Press had sold this photograph to the
London Daily Mail for $500.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you have any idea how the Detroit Free Press obtained
this photograph?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I talked to Ken Murray, who I was informed was the
attorney for the Detroit Free Press.

Mr. REDLICH. Where did you talk to him?

Mr. MARTIN. At his home in Detroit.

Mr. REDLICH. By phone?

Mr. MARTIN. By telephone. And he stated that the photograph was public
property, and not covered under common law copyright. I asked him where
he got the photo, and he said he got it at the same place as Life did,
through a leak in the Commission. I talked to Life magazine attorney--I
can't remember his name. It is a very odd name. It begins with an "S".
Now, Murray said that Life had informed him that they had gotten it
from a leak through the Commission, and I contacted Life and he denied
saying anything of the sort to Murray.

However, Murray insisted that that is where he got that and he figured
it was public domain.

Mr. REDLICH. At the start of today's testimony when you mentioned
the possibility of a leak with regard to this photograph, something
that you said prior to the actual start of hearings, Mr. Rankin and I
commented on that assertion.

Would you tell the Commission what we said?

Mr. MARTIN. That there was definitely not a leak in the Commission, and
that you would certainly find out what Murray was talking about.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you talk to an editor of the Detroit Free Press with
regard to this photograph?

Mr. MARTIN. I called at night. It was at night, and I asked for the
news editor. He was not in, so I talked to a reporter, and he couldn't
say anything about it. He referred me to Ken Murray and gave me his
home telephone number.

Mr. REDLICH. The next item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 has reference
to Stern Magazine.

Would you tell the Commission about that, please?

Mr. MARTIN. Stern Magazine we have been working with since the middle
of December. They have been quite patient actually. For $12,500 they
wanted Marina's memoirs and photographs, available photographs for use
in Germany and Italy only. They wanted exclusive use in those two
countries. Then they would endeavor to sell these same memoirs and
pictures to other European countries, limiting it only to European
countries, and take a 30 percent commission on any sales that they
made, the remaining 70 percent going to Marina.

Mr. REDLICH. Has this contract been signed?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you know when it was signed? Can you approximate the
date?

Mr. MARTIN. I confirmed it by wire to them. It is in the exhibits.

Mr. REDLICH. We have not introduced----

Mr. MARTIN. You haven't come to that yet.

Mr. REDLICH. We do not intend to introduce the specific documents into
the record, just this summary.

Mr. LEECH. Give him an approximate date.

Mr. REDLICH. You say it was confirmed by telegram.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it was confirmed by telegram to Spiegelberg.

Mr. LEECH. When?

Mr. MARTIN. In New York. December 16 at 2:45 p.m.

Mr. REDLICH. The next item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 also refers to
Stern Magazine, an item of $2,650.

Could you comment on that?

Mr. MARTIN. This was a recent development wherein since they could not
send an author in to talk to Marina, they purchased seven photographs
for a total of $2,650, to take the memoirs later.

However, they will not hold off the memoirs forever.

Mr. REDLICH. These seven photographs are photographs of what?

Mr. MARTIN. Of Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald together and separate.

Mr. REDLICH. These were photographs which were not turned over to the
Dallas police?

Mr. MARTIN. No. They were photographs that we were given prints of by
the FBI. The FBI sent prints of these photographs to us.

Mr. REDLICH. Am I correct in assuming that all of the photographs which
were in the possession of Marina Oswald and Lee Harvey Oswald, either
in his apartment or in the Paine's apartment, were turned over to the
Dallas police?

Is that right?

Mr. MARTIN. As far as I know.

Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. And that any photographs which you have and which have
been the basis of any contract are copies which were made available to
you by some law enforcement authority?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Now, there was a check, there was a $250 cash down
payment made on this $2,650. Then a check for $2,400; the check was
stopped, payment on the check was stopped because of a letter written
by William McKenzie saying that I had no authority to sign any
contracts whatsoever for Marina, and that if they did use anything that
I had sold them, litigation would follow immediately. So consequently
they stopped payment on the check. I still have the check. It is still
attached to the letter that was sent with it.

Mr. DULLES. Could I ask who is that check made out to?

Mr. MARTIN. Made out to me.

Mr. DULLES. To you as agent?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Or to you just in your name?

Mr. MARTIN. I think it is just made out to me.

Mr. DULLES. I don't know if it is important.

Mr. LEECH. You go ahead and I'll find it.

Mr. MARTIN. Under the contract all checks were supposed to be made
payable to me. Then I would deduct my fee and forward the balance to
Marina.

Mr. REDLICH. The next item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 refers to
Meredith Press.

Mr. MARTIN. The Meredith Press is a book publisher with their main
office in Des Moines, Iowa. I had talked with Mr. Ted Purdy at great
length and on numerous occasions by phone. We had negotiated world
book rights for Marina Oswald's story. For this Meredith Press would
pay a $25,000 advance to her. Then on the first printing would be a 10
percent commission of the retail price of the book.

On the second printing would be 12-1/2 percent commission, and on the
third and succeeding printings it would be 15 percent commission.

Now, of course, the commissions were to be deducted from the advance.

Mr. REDLICH. And this was to be her life story?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Had you discussed with Marina at all the contents of this
book? Had you started making any preparations for writing?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I am not a writer, and wouldn't know the first thing
to do about a book. But we had negotiated with one writer, Isaac Don
Levine, who Meredith Press felt would be the best writer available for
this type of book because of the Russian attachment.

Mr. REDLICH. When you told us this morning of your initial concern over
the Nixon shooting incident, did it relate to these various agreements
that you have been working on concerning the sale of Marina Oswald's
story?

Mr. MARTIN. Did it relate to them?

Mr. REDLICH. Yes.

Mr. MARTIN. How do you mean?

Mr. REDLICH. Were you concerned about the publicity, the effect of the
publicity of the Nixon incident on these various agreements which you
were negotiating at the time?

Mr. MARTIN. No. As a matter of fact, it would enhance the price of it.

For instance, the Post magazine, the Saturday Evening Post, said that
they would like to buy American serial rights if there was something in
Marina's story that the Commission did not know.

Mr. REDLICH. When did they tell you this?

Mr. MARTIN. Around the first of the year I guess.

Mr. REDLICH. Around the first of the year. Did Marina know about this?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. This is the Saturday Evening Post you are talking about?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I talked to a Mr. Black.

Mr. REDLICH. And the Saturday Evening Post said to you that they would
buy the serial rights provided there was some information which would
not be known to the Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I told them there was no realm that would apply, and
we closed negotiations.

Mr. REDLICH. And you say you didn't relate this fact at all to Marina
Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. These negotiations with the Post.

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Was there in fact to the best of your knowledge material
which she did not in fact relate to this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. Not to my knowledge other than the Nixon affair.

Mr. REDLICH. And were you aware at the time she completed her testimony
here that she had not related this information to the Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Was there any connection between her failure to tell the
Commission of the Nixon incident and the negotiations, the temporary
negotiations that you had had with the Saturday Evening Post?

Mr. MARTIN. No, none whatsoever. That was closed off at least 30 days
before she testified.

Mr. REDLICH. Was there any attempt on your part or anyone acting on
Marina Oswald's part that you know of to negotiate the sale of the
information concerning the Nixon shooting incident?

Mr. MARTIN. No, not to my knowledge.

Mr. REDLICH. When Marina--did Marina ever give you an explanation for
why she did not tell the Commission about the Nixon incident?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I have never talked to her about that other than the
first time that she told me about it. I asked John Thorne if she had
mentioned it. I didn't discuss it with her.

Mr. REDLICH. And since Marina Oswald's return from Washington after
having testified here, you say you have never discussed the Nixon
incident with Marina Oswald in any way?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I probably would have had there been sufficient time.
Of course, she left my home the following day after she got back from
Washington.

Mr. REDLICH. When you say you probably would have, in what way?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, since she didn't mention it to the Commission, I feel
the Commission should know about it.

Mr. DULLES. Did you know at this time she had not mentioned it to the
Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. I asked John Thorne.

Mr. DULLES. Oh, you asked John Thorne?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. What did John Thorne say?

Mr. MARTIN. Said she had not mentioned it.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you ask John Thorne why she had not mentioned it?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did John Thorne offer any information as to why she had
not mentioned it?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you know whether John Thorne had urged her to mention
it?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. John Thorne was aware of the Nixon incident prior to
Marina Oswald's appearance before this Commission, was he not?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Because you had apparently told him about that shortly
after you learned about it in January.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you discuss the Nixon incident with Robert Oswald
after Marina Oswald's appearance before this Commission in February?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. You had not?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know if I discussed it with him prior to the
Commission's testimony or not. I may or I may not have. I don't know. I
don't know whether I mentioned it to him or not.

Mr. REDLICH. Coming back to Commission Exhibit No. 325, the next item
under London Daily Mirror, am I correct in assuming that this is, that
this item refers to the rifle photo which you discussed earlier in your
testimony tonight?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, that is right.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you have anything to add with regard to that rifle
photo that you have not already told us?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you discuss with Marina Oswald at any time this rifle
photo and the circumstances under which it was taken.

Mr. MARTIN. I asked her at one time why he wanted a photograph taken of
that type, and she said she didn't know. He just wanted pictures taken
that way.

Mr. REDLICH. Did she tell you when this photograph was taken in
relationship to any other incidents such as the General Walker incident
or the Richard Nixon incident?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Did you know where the photograph was taken?

Mr. MARTIN. I don't know, I don't even know if it was in Oak Cliff or
not. I have an idea that it was in Oak Cliff but I don't know whether I
know that or whether I have read it.

Mr. REDLICH. When you say Oak Cliff, some of us don't live in Dallas.

Mr. MARTIN. It is a suburb of Dallas, a section of Dallas.

Mr. REDLICH. Are you referring to the area where the Neely Street house
was located?

To refresh your recollection, Mr. Martin, the Oswalds lived in two
places in Dallas. One was on Elsbeth Street and the other on Neely. Are
they both in Oak Cliff?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, Elsbeth Street is right around the corner from Neely
Street, I believe they lived in an apartment on Elsbeth.

It was a group of apartments in one building, and on Neely Street, I
think, that was similar to a duplex.

Mr. REDLICH. And you are not certain as to where this photograph which
was the subject of these negotiations was taken?

Mr. MARTIN. No, except that the Elsbeth address, I believe, was a brick
residence, I mean a brick apartment, it is a dark building, and the
Neely Street address is a white building.

I believe the photo shows a white building.

Mr. REDLICH. On the basis of that you would conclude the photograph was
taken at which address?

Mr. MARTIN. At the Neely Street address.

Mr. REDLICH. At the Neely Street address. When you were negotiating
with various publications for this photograph, didn't anyone ask you
when and where it was taken?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, I told them that it was while they were living in Oak
Cliff. I didn't say where or when.

Mr. REDLICH. No one asked you.

Mr. MARTIN. And they apparently weren't concerned with the where or
when.

Mr. REDLICH. Did they ask you anything about the publication which Lee
Oswald had in his hand?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, and I told them that it was either the Militant or the
Worker. I was not sure which one. I am not even sure whether either one.

Mr. REDLICH. Your copy of the photograph did not indicate clearly which
one it was?

Mr. MARTIN. Correct.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you now know which one it was?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. DULLES. Are you sure it is one of the two?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I am not. I assume that it would be one of the two.

Mr. REDLICH. For the record it is the Militant.

Mr. DULLES. It is?

Mr. REDLICH. Is there anything about the circumstances of this
photograph, including the rifle, the pistol, the time, the place,
anything concerning this photograph that you have not told this
Commission about which you have knowledge?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. The last item on Commission Exhibit No. 325 is This Week
magazine, $1,000. Could you tell us about that. At the conclusion of
this list I will ask if there is anything else. We are now at This Week
magazine.

Mr. MARTIN. When Marina was here in Washington, she had the press
conference, and at the end of the press conference she mentioned, she
made a statement "Now I go to church." On the way to the CBS studios we
passed a Russian Orthodox Church, and she remarked about it, that she
would like to come back and go inside, see what it looked like. Someone
in This Week magazine caught that statement, and wanted to write a
short article on Marina going to church, and that is what that is.

Mr. REDLICH. What happened? Could you tell us how this article got
written?

Mr. MARTIN. It hasn't been written.

Mr. REDLICH. Did the reporter accompany Mrs. Oswald to church?

Mr. MARTIN. Oh, no. Actually when the television interview was over,
we came back and went to the church, but the church was locked and
we didn't get in at all. Now this contact was made after we left
Washington. This Week magazine contacted us after, not while we were
still here.

Mr. REDLICH. And what was the subject matter of this article
specifically supposed to be?

Mr. MARTIN. The title of it was supposed to be "I go to church," and it
would be an article written on Marina going to church.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, the total figure on the bottom of Commission
Exhibit No. 325 is $132,350. This presumably does not include any
future royalties, is that correct?

Mr. MARTIN. That is correct.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you made an estimate as to the total earnings which
would accrue as a result of these contractual arrangements?

Mr. MARTIN. It should be approximately $300,000 at a maximum, depending
on what American serial rights and British Commonwealth serial rights,
Asiatic serial rights would bring.

Mr. REDLICH. You say the maximum of $300,000?

Mr. MARTIN. I think so.

Mr. LEECH. Of those contracts?

Mr. REDLICH. That is what I am asking about are these.

Mr. MARTIN. Of these contracts, yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Could you tell us about any other contractual arrangements
that you have made or are negotiating on behalf of Marina Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. There are no others. I will have to refer to things.
We had an offer from Australia and also from New Zealand as far as
this photograph is concerned. However, it was thrown to the wind by
the Detroit Free Press, so they got it from Detroit Free Press, we
have been offered--we have not received an offer. The Australian
newspaper----

Mr. DULLES. Do you need these details do you think?

Mr. REDLICH. I want to get the total figure, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. MARTIN. Associated Newspapers Limited of Australia would like to
have Australian rights to a book that Marina would write, and also
the London Evening Standard would like to have the British rights, of
course, to the picture of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, Mr. Thorne has indicated to this Commission
that he estimated that Marina's earnings would approach approximately
$500,000. Would you comment on that estimate?

Mr. MARTIN. I think it might be a little high. Of course, if you take
into consideration she has $68,000, close to $70,000 in contributions
alone, then the advances on this Exhibit No. 325, that is $200,000
right there. I think $500,000 might be just a little bit high.

Mr. REDLICH. The final document I would like to show you is a photostat
of a letter which you presented to the Commission today, purporting to
be a letter written in Russian together with an English translation. It
starts, the English translation starts with the words "As the widow of
Lee Oswald." I show you Commission Exhibit No. 333 and ask you if this
is a photostat of the letter which you submitted to the Commission this
morning.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, apparently so.

Mr. DULLES. Who is that letter to?

Mr. REDLICH. We don't know yet.

Mr. DULLES. You don't know yet?

Mr. REDLICH. I will develop that in the questioning. I mark this
Commission Exhibit No. 333, being a Russian letter and what purports to
be its English translation and ask that it be admitted in evidence.

Mr. DULLES. Can you identify that any further than just a Russian
letter?

Mr. REDLICH. On the top appears a date, and the day of the month is the
20th. I am unable to tell what month it is.

Mr. MARTIN. But the year is 1964, and the words "Dallas, Texas" then
appear under the date.

Mr. DULLES. That helps identify it.

Mr. REDLICH. I ask that it be admitted in evidence.

Mr. DULLES. Any objection?

Mr. LEECH. No objection.

Mr. DULLES. It is admitted.

(The photostats of a Russian letter with an English translation were
marked Commission Exhibit No. 333 for identification and received in
evidence.)

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, with your permission I would just summarize
the contents of this letter, and if I have summarized it inaccurately,
just say so. This letter requests that the death penalty not be applied
to Jack Ruby, the person who has been charged with the murder of Lee
Harvey Oswald. Is that inaccurate?

Mr. MARTIN. No; that is correct.

Mr. REDLICH. That is a correct summary of the contents of the letter?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you recall to whom that letter was written?

Mr. MARTIN. She originally wrote the letter to Melvin Belli.

Mr. REDLICH. By "she" you mean Marina Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. Marina. I advised her against----

Mr. REDLICH. Melvin Belli?

Mr. MARTIN. Is the attorney for Jack Ruby. I advised her against
such an action, because of the possibility of the letter itself in
translating from Russian to English being misinterpreted and used in a
manner that might be derogatory to Marina Oswald. I suggested that she
send this letter to Henry Wade who would be the prosecutor in the case.
Now whether she changed the salutation on the letter I don't know.
I can't read Russian. And the salutation was not translated in the
translation. The translation was made by Katya Ford.

Mr. REDLICH. To the best of your knowledge has this letter ever been
sent to anyone?

Mr. MARTIN. No sir, it hasn't.

Mr. DULLES. You say it has not been?

Mr. MARTIN. It has not been.

Mr. DULLES. That is your belief or you have knowledge that it has not
been?

Mr. MARTIN. I have the original. Now if a letter has been sent, it
would be a different letter.

Mr. REDLICH. On the basis of your knowledge of Marina Oswald's
handwriting, would you tell the Commission whether you believe that
this letter is in her handwriting?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it is. I also observed her writing the letter.

Mr. REDLICH. Are you aware of the fact that Marina Oswald discussed
this letter when she appeared before this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. I believe you mentioned it sometime today.

Mr. REDLICH. Were you aware of it prior to your coming here?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. Do you know why it has not been sent?

Mr. MARTIN. She decided that it was best not to be sent unless she
actually thought that Ruby was going to get the death penalty. Actually
a letter like that should go to the Governor of the State.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Martin, do you have any additional information
concerning the assassination of President Kennedy, Marina Oswald, or
the assassination of her husband Lee Harvey Oswald which you would like
to present before this Commission at this time?

Mr. MARTIN. No, I don't think so. Nothing.

Mr. REDLICH. If it would be helpful for the work of this Commission for
you to return to Washington and appear again before this Commission,
would you be willing to do so?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Chairman, I have no further questions of this witness,
unless Mr. Rankin does or you do.

Mr. DULLES. I would just like to ask a question about this letter I am
just glancing over. Where did this letter paper come from? Is that some
personal paper with a tree on it?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I bought that.

Mr. DULLES. You bought it for her?

Mr. MARTIN. At a drug store, yes, sir, at a drug store in Arlington.

Mr. DULLES. Is this another draft or is this just a copy?

Mr. MARTIN. This is the original of the copy.

Mr. REDLICH. We have photographed what is now Commission Exhibit No.
333 and we are keeping the photostat. Mr. Martin, you will recall that
at the start of today's proceedings Chief Justice Warren read into the
record a copy of the letter which you received requesting certain
notes, records, documents in connection with today's hearing. Have
you made available to the Commission all of the material which was
requested in that letter?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I went through everything I had at home, and
could find nothing else.

Mr. REDLICH. If you should find anything else which you inadvertently
failed to bring before this Commission, will you mail it to us for
examination and we will return it to you.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; there is a Worker that I have.

Mr. REDLICH. You mean by Worker the Daily Worker?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. I think they dropped the "Daily."

Mr. DULLES. They are no longer daily.

Mr. MARTIN. It is called the Worker now. It has quite a lengthy article
about Marina in it, and I will send that to you.

Mr. REDLICH. And you will send anything that you may come across which
you may have inadvertently failed to produce before this Commission?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. REDLICH. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DULLES. There were some questions that Senator Cooper had
suggested. I don't know, have you looked those over? Have they been
covered?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Those have been covered.

Mr. DULLES. All been covered?

Mr. REDLICH. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. Did Marina ever express to you her opinion as to the guilt
or innocence of her husband in connection with the assassination of the
President?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. What did she say?

Mr. MARTIN. She believes he was guilty. She believes he did it, and
the first time she said it I questioned her as to why she thought he
did it, and she said she just felt it. It was a woman's intuition. She
didn't know the word intuition at that time. I had to look it up in the
Russian-English Dictionary.

Mr. DULLES. Did she indicate any view as to whether he did it alone or
had an accomplice or accomplices?

Mr. MARTIN. She remarked about the Walker incident, that that was
definitely done alone, and that he always was alone. He never did
anything with anyone else. I don't recall that she mentioned that
specifically in the case of the assassination of the President. But she
had made that remark before or during the interim about Walker.

Mr. DULLES. Did she ever at any time express to you any interest in
returning to the Soviet Union or her desire to stay in the United
States?

Mr. MARTIN. Well, she has always said that she wanted to stay in the
United States. One time she said that she thought she would go back to
Russia, and I asked her why and she said, well, she was just joking.

Mr. DULLES. Did she ever refer to you any letters she wrote to the
Soviet Embassy with regard to a desire to return?

Mr. MARTIN. No. There was only one incident that she told me about was
a letter to a friend in Russia.

Mr. DULLES. You mentioned that I think.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes.

Mr. DULLES. The one that she didn't put enough stamps on, enough
postage on.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, it came back "insufficient postage."

Mr. DULLES. Did she ever mention to you any names of any friends or
associates of her husband that had not been discussed here at one time
or another in this testimony, including the list of names that was read
out to you?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. DULLES. Do you know any other friends that Marina has other than
those that have been discussed in this testimony?

Mr. MARTIN. No. I was trying to think a while ago about that, and I
can't think of anyone else.

Mr. DULLES. That is all I have.

Mr. REDLICH. Mr. Leech, would you like to ask Mr. Martin any questions
at this time?

Mr. LEECH. Not a word.

Mr. DULLES. Mr. Rhyne? Mr. Rankin, have you any further questions?

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Chairman, I merely wish to thank him for appearing
voluntarily.

Mr. DULLES. I do thank you for coming and responding so fully to our
questions.

Mr. MARTIN. Anything I can do.

Mr. DULLES. And if anything occurs to you or to your counsel as
sometimes happens later, we will be very glad if you or your counsel
will bring it to our attention.

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, sir; I certainly will.

Mr. REDLICH. May I before we adjourn ask another question?

Mr. DULLES. Certainly.

Mr. REDLICH. Have you ever discussed with Mrs. Marguerite Oswald the
question of the guilt or innocence of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. No. The only time I was in contact with Marguerite Oswald
was at the Inn of the Six Flags in Arlington, Tex., and I don't believe
I really discussed anything with her. I was more on the sidelines and
didn't enter into any discussions with her at all.

Mr. REDLICH. And have you discussed with Robert Oswald the question of
the guilt or innocence of Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes. Let's see, on one occasion the article by Mark
Lane, I think it was in the National Observer, was printed in the
National Observer, and I called Robert's attention to that. I believe
he cited 15 points where he believed that Lee Oswald was innocent,
and I remarked to Robert that in nearly 100 percent of those points
they were just completely out of line. The brief I believe was taken
from newspaper accounts, from various newspaper accounts of the
assassination, and a number of them contradicted each other.

Mr. REDLICH. Did Robert Oswald comment on this?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. For the record I believe the publication you are referring
to is the National Guardian.

Mr. MARTIN. The National Guardian, yes.

Mr. REDLICH. Is that your recollection now?

Mr. MARTIN. Yes, National Guardian.

Mr. REDLICH. And Robert Oswald had no comment on this?

Mr. MARTIN. No.

Mr. REDLICH. We have no further questions.

Mr. DULLES. The Commission will stand adjourned, subject to call.

(Whereupon, at 10:20 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)



_Wednesday, March 4, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF MARK LANE

The President's Commission met at 2:30 p.m., on March 4, 1964, at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman
Cooper and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Norman Redlich,
assistant counsel; Charles Murray and Charles Rhyne, assistants to
Walter E. Craig.


The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.

The Commission has been informed that Mr. Lane has collected numerous
materials relevant to the Commission's work.

The Commission proposes to question Mr. Lane on all matters of which
he has knowledge concerning the assassination of President Kennedy and
the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald, and to request of Mr. Lane
that he make available to the Commission any documentary material in
his possession which can assist the Commission in its work.

In accordance with the rules of this Commission, Mr. Lane has been
furnished with a copy of this statement.

Mr. Lane, would please rise and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear to tell
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. LANE. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please.

Mr. Rankin, would you proceed with the examination, please?

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Lane, will you state your name?

Mr. LANE. My name is Mark Lane.

Mr. RANKIN. Where do you live?

Mr. LANE. 164 West 79th Street, New York City, New York State.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you a practicing lawyer?

Mr. LANE. Yes; I am.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you state your age, please?

Mr. LANE. I am 37 years old.

Mr. RANKIN. How long have you been practicing law?

Mr. LANE. Thirteen years.

Mr. RANKIN. You have qualified in the State of New York?

Mr. LANE. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Are you qualified in any other Jurisdiction?

Mr. LANE. Just in the Federal court.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have some information concerning the matters being
investigated by the Commission that you would like to present to the
Commission?

Mr. LANE. Yes; I do.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you proceed to do so?

Mr. LANE. Yes.

I wonder if I might ask at the outset if I will be able to secure a
copy of the transcript of my testimony tomorrow, or is that going to be
rushing things?

The CHAIRMAN. You will be able to obtain it. I don't know whether we
can promise it to you tomorrow morning or not. But we will do it just
as quickly as it can be transcribed by the reporter.

Mr. LANE. Thank you, sir.

At the outset, I would like to request that this portion of the
hearing, in any event, be opened to the public. I think that there are
matters here of grave concern to all the people of our country, and
that it would, therefore, be fruitful and constructive for the sessions
to be conducted in a public fashion, open to the public and to the
press.

Accordingly, I request that this session at least involving my
testimony be so opened to the public.

The CHAIRMAN. You would have a right, as any witness would have, to
request that, Mr. Lane. We will conduct this in an open hearing. We
will adjourn at this time to the auditorium downstairs, and we will
conduct the hearing there. It will be open to the public. I saw a good
many members of the press around, so it will really be a public affair.

(Whereupon, at 2:45 p.m., the Commission recessed and then reconvened
in the auditorium in open session.)



TESTIMONY OF MARK LANE RESUMED IN OPEN SESSION


The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.

The Commission convened in our committee room on the fourth floor.

A reporter has been appointed.

Mr. Lane has been sworn.

Mr. Lane has stated that he would like to give his testimony at a
public hearing. I explained to him that that was thoroughly agreeable
to the Commission. The Commission does not operate in a secret way. Any
witness who desires to have his--give his testimony in public may do so.

We have done it in the quiet of our rooms for the convenience of
witnesses, and in order to accelerate the program. But any witness who
desires to have his testimony recorded at a public hearing may do so.

The purpose of this Commission is, of course, eventually to make known
to the President, and to the American public everything that has
transpired before this Commission. All of it will be made available at
the appropriate time. The records of the work of the Commission will be
preserved for the public. So, Mr. Lane, we will be happy to accommodate
you, and to proceed with our hearing.

Now, Mr. Rankin will conduct the examination.

(Having been previously duly sworn.)

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Lane, will you proceed to tell the Commission whatever
you have that would bear upon this investigation? Start item by item,
and give us whatever you have in support.

Mr. LANE. Yes, sir.

At the outset, I would like to call to the Commission's attention a
matter which is somewhat peripheral, perhaps, and should the Commission
determine it does not wish to hear my testimony in that regard, I
will understand that. But I would like to call it to your attention,
because although it is peripheral I think it is related to both the
assassination and the investigation into the assassination of the
President.

That is in relationship to a picture which has been widely publicized,
probably in every single community of our country, allegedly showing
Lee Harvey Oswald holding in his hand a rifle which has been described
in at least one publication, Life magazine, as the weapon with which he
assassinated President Kennedy.

I would like to indicate to the Commission at this time that the
pictures which have been distributed throughout the country included
doctored and forged photographs. I would like to present evidence to
the Commission at this time in that regard.

I ask the Commission if it does conclude that the photographs have been
doctored, whether it will consider determining whether or not a crime
has been committed, or an effort has been made to submit evidence to
the Commission members, though not directly through the press, from
magazines, which evidence----

The CHAIRMAN. I didn't get that last sentence--something about the
Commission?

Mr. LANE. I am asking the Commission if it does conclude that the
pictures have been doctored, to consider investigating the method by
which the doctoring took place, who was responsible, and whether or not
an effort has been made to influence the members of the Commission,
while not directly, through the publication of this picture, which
certainly has been circulated very widely throughout our country.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be sure, Mr. Lane, that anything you present in
that regard will be thoroughly considered by the Commission.

Mr. LANE. Thank you, sir.

I would like to offer the February 21, 1964 issue of Life magazine.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you mark that, Mr. Reporter, please, the next number.

Mr. LANE. A picture appears on the entire cover of Life magazine, and
an identical picture appears in the interior pages, at page 80. The
caption on the cover reads, "Lee Oswald with the weapons he used to
kill President Kennedy and Officer Tippit."

I think it is quite plain from looking at both of the pictures that
there appears on the rifle, what appears to be a rifle in the left hand
of Lee Harvey Oswald, a telescopic sight.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr. Lane, we will mark that Exhibit No. 334.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 334, for
identification.)

Mr. LANE. Next I would like to offer a picture which is a glossy
8-1/2-by-11 picture, of a photograph published in the New York Times,
secured by the New York Times from the Associated Press.

Representative FORD. Is there any verification of the fact that that is
as you have identified it?

Mr. LANE. That is what--a picture secured----

Representative FORD. From the New York Times, which in turn had
acquired it from the Associated Press?

Mr. LANE. Well, that is a statement which I have made under oath, and
it can be verified with the New York Times.

Mr. RANKIN. That is Exhibit 335 that you are just referring to, Mr.
Lane.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 335, for
identification.)

Mr. LANE. I suggest that is the identical picture with the one
published on the cover of Life magazine, Exhibit 334, in every respect,
including the creases in the trousers, the background, with the
exception of the rifle in the hands of Oswald, which appears to have no
telescopic scope in Exhibit 335.

In addition, there clearly has been some other doctoring of the
photograph around the head of Lee Harvey Oswald, and the trees and
other background material over his left shoulder have been removed from
the Associated Press picture, but are present in the Life magazine
picture.

Shadows and fenceposts which can be observed between the legs of Lee
Harvey Oswald in Exhibit 335 have been removed in the Life magazine
picture. I would like to offer this picture as the next exhibit.

Mr. RANKIN. That will be marked Exhibit 336.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 336 for
identification.)

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what that is, Mr. Lane?

Mr. LANE. Yes; 336 is an 8-1/2-by-11 glossy photograph of a picture
appearing in Newsweek magazine, March 2, 1964, credited by Newsweek
magazine to the Detroit Free Press. I would suggest that that is an
identical picture with the other two pictures in every respect, except
that it has no telescopic sight on the rifle, and there is a great deal
of metallic materials present on that rifle clearly not present in the
other two pictures.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you say metallics?

Mr. LANE. Metallics.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you tell us what you mean by that, Mr. Lane?

Mr. LANE. Yes. Just below the hand, the left hand of Lee Harvey Oswald,
there is clearly visible a series of pieces of metal, allegedly part of
the rifle, which are in no way clear--which are in no way present in
the other pictures.

The CHAIRMAN. I see.

Mr. LANE. To make that clearer, I would like to offer Exhibit 337,
which is an enlargement of the picture 335, the New York Times picture.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 337, for
identification.)

Mr. LANE. This enlarges the area on the rifle just below what is
allegedly Oswald's left hand. It clearly shows an absolute absence of
all of the metallic material present in the Newsweek photo, 336.

This is a front page of the New York Journal American dated February
18, 1964, which is an identical picture with the one published in
Life magazine, Exhibit 334, and the credit lines appearing on that
publication indicate that the picture has been secured from the
Associated Press through the Detroit Free Press.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 338, for
identification.)

Mr. LANE. That picture has a telescopic sight, and is not the picture
in terms of the metal material on the rifle which Newsweek stated they
secured through the Detroit Free Press, and is not the picture without
the telescopic sight which the New York Times states that it secured
through the Associated Press. In any event, I would like to submit a
picture procured from Worldwide Photos.

Mr. RANKIN. 339.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 339, for
identification.)

Mr. LANE. This is allegedly a picture taken in the Dallas Police
Station, showing the alleged murder weapon.

The CHAIRMAN. That is No. 339, Mr. Lane?

Mr. LANE. Yes, sir, and I would call the Commission's attention to the
curved line of the stock present in Exhibit 339, and obviously absent
from every other picture, indicating that in no event is the rifle
allegedly in the hands of Lee Oswald, in Exhibits 334 through 338
comparable to the alleged murder weapon as shown in the Dallas police
station.

And should the Commission decide to investigate the obviously doctored
pictures that have been circulated so widely in our country, I would
refer the Commission investigators to the Times Picayune of New
Orleans, published on November 24, 1963, in which an Associated Press
story indicated that the Dallas police chief, Jesse Curry, stated that
he had in his possession photographs found in the home of Lee Harvey
Oswald's Russian-born wife which linked Oswald with the rifle used
in the assassination of President Kennedy. Curry said in the article
attributed to Curry----

Mr. RANKIN. Do you wish to make that a part of the record?

Mr. LANE. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. That will be Exhibit 340.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 340 for
identification.)

Mr. LANE. The article attributes a statement to Curry indicating that
he, the Dallas Police Chief, found the pictures in the suburban Irving,
Tex., home in which Marina Oswald lived, and stated that Mr. Curry had
said that the pictures will be used in evidence in Oswald's murder
trial. This was published, I assume, prior to the time that Oswald was
himself killed on that day.

Representative FORD. Would the date of the paper be on the back side?

The CHAIRMAN. It is on the front. November 24th.

Mr. LANE. I would like to offer this as an exhibit.

Mr. RANKIN. This is marked Commission Exhibit 341.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 341, for
identification.)

Mr. LANE. Exhibit 341 is a page or portion of a page of the New York
Times, on Sunday, December 8, with a picture of the alleged murder
weapon, secured, according to the credit line under the picture, from
the United Press International, indicating clearly that that rifle is
not the rifle allegedly being held by Mr. Oswald in any of the pictures
so widely circulated throughout our country.

Mr. RANKIN. On what do you base that last conclusion, Mr. Lane? Would
you point out to the Commission the differences as you see them?

Mr. LANE. Yes; the reference of the stock. The stock has a clearly
curved and bent line in this picture.

Mr. RANKIN. That is in Exhibit 341?

Mr. LANE. Yes, and it is present in none of the pictures of Oswald
holding the rifle; 336, for example, in Newsweek magazine shows almost
a straight stock. Some of them show even an absolutely straight stock.

Exhibit 335 from the New York Times shows a perfectly straight
stock--which is not only a stock unlike this particular Italian 6.5
millimeter carbine, but is a stock I believe unlike any rifle stock
produced during the 20th century, and possibly the 19th century,
anywhere. Rifle experts seem to agree that every stock must have in
it some break, so that it is possible to place your hand around the
rifle while your finger holds the trigger. And there is no break in
the doctored photographs, in the stock portrayed on the doctored
photographs.

I have checked many rifle catalogs. This is not my field, and I don't
qualify as an expert. But I have checked many rifle catalogs, and have
only seen rifles with a break where the stock becomes narrow enough for
one's hand to grasp it while pulling the trigger.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that the basis of your opinion that you have just given,
that it doesn't have a break in it, and that other rifles for any
period later than you have described do?

Mr. LANE. Well, several persons who have described themselves as rifle
experts have made that statement to me.

Mr. RANKIN. Who are those?

Mr. LANE. I believe I have some of their names here. I don't have the
names of those who have called, but I can secure that at our first
break by a telephone call to my office.

Mr. RANKIN. Would you furnish that then?

Mr. LANE. Surely. In any event, whether there was another rifle or
not, the rifle portrayed in the picture is clearly--in the picture in
which Oswald is allegedly holding the rifle--clearly is not the rifle
allegedly claimed to be the murder weapon. I wonder if I might ask the
Commission if it might produce the rifle now, so that we might compare
the actual rifle with the pictures.

The CHAIRMAN. We will do that in due course. But we don't have the
rifle here now, Mr. Lane. We will make the proper comparisons, you may
be sure, with experts.

Mr. LANE. Now, on another peripheral matter--unless there are any
further questions in relation to this matter----

Mr. RANKIN. No, you may proceed. Do you have negatives of these
pictures you have produced?

Mr. LANE. No. I am glad you asked that question, because I can now
relate to you about a conversation that I had 2 or 3 days ago with
a Mr. Dirksen, who is on the photo desk of the Associated Press. I
called Mr. Dirksen and asked him for a glossy of the picture which the
Associated Press sent out over the wire service.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you identify Mr. Dirksen a little more clearly?

Mr. LANE. He just told me he was employed. I called the Associated
Press in New York City and asked for the photo desk, Mr. Dirksen
answered and said he was employed there. I asked him what his specific
position was there, and he declined to give me that information. He
said he didn't think it was relevant.

In any event, I asked him if he could secure for me a glossy, a glossy
copy of the picture sent by the Associated Press over the wires. And
I described the picture as the one of Oswald allegedly holding the
murder weapon in his left hand, and having on his right hip a pistol,
allegedly the pistol with which he slew Officer Tippit.

Mr. Dirksen stated to me that he could not make a glossy of that
picture available to me and I pointed out to him that in the past the
Associated Press had been most cooperative when I asked for pictures,
and he said, "Yes, we sent a whole batch up to you last week, didn't
we?" I said, "Yes, you did, I appreciated that. I wonder why this
picture is being treated differently from other pictures." He said,
"This is not a normal picture and this is not the normal situation."

I asked him what he meant by that. He explained that there was a
special contract--he did not have all the details, he said, because
he is not one of the persons who was involved in drafting the
contract--but there was a special contract between the Associated Press
and the source of this picture, and they agreed, the Associated Press
agreed in this contract that they would not make a glossy available
to anyone, that they would send the pictures out only to their
subscribers, and that no one else would be allowed to see the picture.

I said if that was the understanding, I certainly would not wish to
have them breach their agreement, and asked if instead he would make
the name of the source known to me, so that I might go directly to the
source and see if I might secure the picture in that fashion. He stated
he could not do that, because one of the other stipulations in the
contract would be that they could not reveal the name of the source of
the picture.

I discussed this with an employee of the New York Times thereafter,
since I knew that the New York Times was a subscriber to the services
made available by the Associated Press.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you identify that employee, please?

Mr. LANE. No, I am not going to be able to discuss sources, obviously,
here, I am sorry.

But this employee indicated to me thereafter that an inquiry had been
made by the New York Times to the Associated Press along the same lines
as the inquiry which I had made, in terms of trying to determine the
source of the Associated Press picture. And I was informed by this
employee of the New York Times that the Associated Press declined to
name the source of the picture, even when the New York Times made a
request. Therefore, I do not have the negative, and I do not know the
source of the picture.

Mr. RANKIN. Is that true with regard to all of the pictures that you
produced?

Mr. LANE. My office called Life magazine, and asked someone at Life
magazine on the photo desk, the editorial department, if a picture
could be made available and they stated that they would not make a
glossy available--it was their policy in reference to all pictures in
their possession.

Those are the only inquiries I made with reference to the source of the
pictures.

Mr. RANKIN. Now you may proceed.

Mr. LANE. Yes. I would like to raise one other peripheral matter before
going into the evidence, if I might. That is, I would like to call to
the attention of the Commission this article, and ask that it be marked
as an exhibit.

Mr. RANKIN. That has been marked Commission Exhibit 342.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 342, for
identification.)

Mr. LANE. Thank you.

This is an article appearing in the New York Journal American Sunday,
February 23.

Mr. RANKIN. This consists of two separate pages, does it not?

Mr. LANE. It does--the first page being a masthead and front page,
headline from the Journal American, dated Sunday, February 23, 1964,
and the second page containing a portion of the front page of the
Journal American on that date, and a portion of page 15, the continued
story of the Journal American on the same date.

This is an article written by Bob Considine, who enjoys a reputation
for being an excellent reporter. Mr. Considine states in his article
that an eyewitness to the shooting of Officer Tippit by the name of
Warren Reynolds was himself recently shot through the head by a man
with a rifle.

Now, I don't believe that it is alleged that Reynolds actually saw the
person pull the trigger which sent the bullets at Officer Tippit. As
I understand it, Mr. Reynolds has stated that he, Reynolds, heard the
shot, the shooting, left his office and saw a man running away, placing
new shells into a pistol as he ran away. And Mr. Considine indicates
that Reynolds thereafter identified Oswald as the person who was
running from the scene.

This article indicated that during January, Mr. Reynolds was himself
shot through the head with a rifle, and that he is in the hospital--I
believe he was in the hospital at that time. I don't know what the
state of his health is at the present time.

Mr. Considine indicates that a person was picked up in the Dallas area
and charged with the shooting, but that someone who Mr. Considine
refers to as "his girl"--I assume he is making reference to the
gentleman who was charged with the attack upon Reynolds--testified
in such a fashion, and took a lie detector test, so that the person
charged with the crime was released.

This person, Betty Mooney MacDonald, who helped to free her friend,
according to Mr. Considine, herself had worked as a stripper in the
Carousel Club in Dallas, owned by Jack Ruby.

Two weeks before this article was written, Miss MacDonald was herself
arrested for a fight with her roommate, and the week before the article
was written, Mr. Considine states she hanged herself in her cell.

I would request the Commission to investigate into these series of most
unusual coincidences, to see if they have any bearing upon the basic
matter pending before the Commission.

The CHAIRMAN. It may be introduced as are all of these pictures,
admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission
Exhibits Nos. 334 to 342, were received in evidence.)

Mr. LANE. In the course of my investigation, I have come across some
material which would be relevant only if I was first able to examine
the rifle, quite frankly. I wonder if that might be able to be
accomplished sometime during the day?

The CHAIRMAN. During the day?

Mr. LANE. Today, if possible.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, I think not, because we don't have it. But we will
make it available to you, though, at the very first opportunity, Mr.
Lane.

Mr. LANE. Fine. Then I will reserve my comment in reference to the
rifle for that occasion.

The CHAIRMAN. You may.

Mr. LANE. Thank you. I would like to, on behalf of Lee Harvey Oswald,
make this information available to the Commission.

It, of course, has been alleged by the chief of police of Dallas, and
by the district attorney of Dallas that Oswald was present on the
sixth floor of the Texas Book Depository Building during the very
early afternoon of November 22, 1963, and that from that area he fired
an Italian carbine, 6.5 millimeters, three times, twice striking the
President of the United States, wounding him fatally, and injuring the
Governor of Texas by striking him with a bullet, on one occasion.

The physician who signed the death certificate of the President
pronouncing him dead was Dr. Kemp Clark, whose name appeared on the
official homicide report filed by the Dallas Police Department, and
attested to by two police officers.

On the 27th of November, the New York Times reported, "Dr. Kemp Clark,
who pronounced Mr. Kennedy dead, said one bullet struck him at about
the necktie knot, 'It ranged downward in his chest and did not exit'
the surgeon said."

On the same day the New York Herald Tribune stated, "On the basis of
accumulated data, investigators have concluded that the first shot
fired as the Presidential car was approaching, struck the President in
the neck, just above the knot of his necktie, then ranged downward into
his body."

According to Richard Dudman--Mr. Dudman is the Washington
correspondent, as I am sure you all know better than I, for the St.
Louis Post-Dispatch--according to him, the surgeons who attended the
President while he was at the Parkland Memorial Hospital, described
the wound--were in agreement in describing the wound in the throat
as an entrance wound. The St. Louis Post-Dispatch on December 1
carried a rather long and involved story by Mr. Dudman, recounting his
conversations with the physicians who were treating the President on
the 22d at the Parkland Memorial Hospital.

Dr. Perry explained that he began to open an air passage in the
President's throat in an effort to restore his breathing, and he
explained that the incision had been made through the bullet wound in
the President's throat--since that was in the correct place for the
operation, in any event. Dr. Perry, according to Mr. Dudman, described
to him the bullet hole as an entrance wound.

Dr. Robert N. McClelland, who was one of the three physicians who
participated in that operation, later stated to Mr. Dudman, "It
certainly did look like an entrance wound."

He went on to say that he saw bullet wounds every day in Dallas,
sometimes several times a day, and that this did appear to be an
entrance wound.

One doctor made reference to the frothing of blood in the neck wound.
The doctor said, "He is bubbling air." Two of the doctors, Drs.
Peters and Baxter, inserted a tube into the right upper part of the
President's chest, just below the shoulder, to reexpand the lungs, and
to keep them from collapsing.

Dr. Jones and Dr. Perry inserted a similar tube on the left portion of
the President's chest.

The activity was necessitated because the bubbling air was the first
clue that they had that the President's lung had been punctured.

The prosecuting authorities, confronted with what seemed then to be
evidence that the President had been shot from the front, in the
throat----

The CHAIRMAN. Are you reading now, Mr. Lane?

Mr. LANE. No, I am just making reference to this. That is not a quote.

The CHAIRMAN. It is not a quote. You are just paraphrasing what was in
this article of Mr. Dudman's?

Mr. LANE. No, I am leaving Mr. Dudman now, and going on to statements
made by the prosecuting authorities. I will submit quotations--I will
try to remember to place quotation marks when I have a quotation.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, all right.

Mr. LANE. The authorities who were confronted with what seemed to be
irrefutable evidence that the President had been shot in the front of
the throat, concluded that the Presidential limousine was approaching
the Book Depository Building when the first shot was fired, because
it seems at the very outset a theory was developed by the prosecuting
authorities that Oswald was on the sixth floor of the Book Depository
Building, that he was the assassin, and that he acted alone.

I think that the record and an examination of the activities of the
Dallas police, and the Dallas district attorney's office, will show
that the only area where they have been consistent from the outset was
once this theory was enunciated, they stayed with the theory, and they
were devoted to the theory, regardless of the discovery of new evidence
and new facts.

For example, the New York Times stated on November 26, 1963, "The known
facts about the bullets, and the position of the assassin, suggested
that he started shooting as the President's car was coming toward him,
swung his rifle in an arc of almost 180┬░, and fired at least twice
more." At that time, the prosecution case had already been developed in
terms of the theory that Oswald was the assassin and that Oswald acted
alone.

There were newspaper pictures published in many portions of the country
showing the Textbook Depository Building on Houston Street where the
Presidential limousine approached the Book Depository Building, and Elm
Street, where after the limousine made a sharp left turn it continued
until it reached the underpass directly ahead.

And in these newspapers, there were superimposed dotted lines showing
the trajectory of the three bullets, showing that the first bullet was
fired while the Presidential car was still on Houston Street, still
approaching the Book Depository Building.

However, it soon became essential for the prosecution to abandon that
theory, because the eyewitnesses present, including Governor Connally,
and Mrs. Connally, stated that the limousine had already made a left
turn, had passed the Book Depository Building at the time that the
first shot was fired.

In essence, then, the prosecution remained with the theory that Oswald,
while acting alone, shot the President from the front from the back.

However,----

Mr. RANKIN. I don't understand that.

Mr. LANE. I don't understand that either, but this was the theory of
the prosecution--that the President had--it had been conceded at that
time that the President had been shot in the front of the throat.
However, the evidence then developed indicated that the Presidential
limousine had already passed the Book Depository Building, and the
President was not facing the Book Depository Building when the first
shot was fired. At that time, Life magazine explains it all in a
full page article entitled, "An End to Nagging Rumors, the 6 Crucial
Seconds."

And Life conceded that the limousine was some 50 yards past Oswald when
the first shot was fired, and that the shot entered the President's
throat from the front, but explained that the President had turned
completely around and was facing the Book Depository Building when the
shot was fired.

But that theory, however, could not----

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have the date of that article?

Mr. LANE. That was December 6, Life magazine. The full page article was
entitled "End to Nagging Rumors, the Six Critical Seconds."

The problem----

Senator COOPER. May I ask a question there--just to clarify? Did you
say that in this article that Life said that the late President had
turned around and was facing the Book Depository Building when the shot
was fired?

Mr. LANE. Yes, Senator. The trouble with that theory, however, which
was enunciated by Life, and from where they secured it I do not
know, but they certainly were in Dallas very much in evidence on the
scene--was that the week prior to then Life magazine itself printed
the stills of the motion pictures, and in those stills, with Life's
own captions, it was quite plain that the President was looking almost
completely forward, just slightly to the right, but almost forward, and
certainly not turned around when the first shot was fired. And so the
stills printed in Life's own publication a week before they enunciated
this theory proved that the Life theory was false.

In addition to this, persons present on the scene, such witnesses as
Mrs. Connally and the Governor of Texas, indicated that the President
was looking almost straight ahead. And I believe that Mrs. Connally
stated that she had just made a statement to the President, tragically
enough, something about, "You cannot say the people of Dallas have not
given you a warm welcome today," and he was about to respond when the
first bullet struck him.

In order for the prosecution to remain with the theory in the light
of the new evidence that Oswald was the assassin and he acted alone,
something would have to give, and it became plain that the third try
would have to result in a new examination of the medical testimony.

Mr. Dudman stated that the doctors at Parkland Hospital, who had, of
course, this vital evidence to offer, were never questioned about the
vital evidence by the FBI or by the Secret Service, and that it was not
until after an autopsy had been performed at Bethesda, that two Secret
Service agents, armed with that report, journeyed down to the Parkland
Hospital and talked to the doctors, for the purpose of explaining to
them that the new medical testimony and evidence indicated they were
all in error at the outset. And, eventually, that was the position
agreed to by the physicians, that they all had been in error when they
stated that it was an entrance wound in the throat.

Physicians seem to agree that a short period of time after death, as
a result of the deterioration of tissue, it is much more difficult to
examine wounds to determine if they are entrance wounds or exit wounds.

In addition to this, according to Mr. Dudman in the Post Dispatch
there had been an operation performed on what the doctors thought then
was an entrance wound; therefore, it would seem altering the wound in
the throat so that it would probably be more difficult to determine
if it were an entrance or an exit wound, after the operation had been
completed.

However, I do not know, of course, what is in the autopsy report--very
likely you have seen that report--but portions of it, whether
accurately or inaccurately, have been leaked to the public through
the press. And the portion which has been leaked to the press, to the
public through the press, in reference to the wound in the President's
throat, indicated that the bullet struck the back of the President's
head, and either a fragment of the bullet or a fragment of bone from
the President's head exited at the throat.

If this were so, while it could explain perhaps the wound in the
throat, it would be difficult to understand why this was not apparent
to the doctors in the Parkland Hospital, particularly in view of the
fact that it would indicate that the path of the bullet ran from the
top of the head down to the throat, not from the throat down to the
back of the chest, a very different path entirely.

And since Dr. Perry indicated that he inserted a tube into the
President's throat following the bullet wound, it would be difficult to
understand how he was not aware of the path of the bullet, when it was
absolutely in the opposite direction from the one he thought it was in
when he inserted the tube.

Most remarkable of all, though, is that if the bullet entered the top
of the head, and a portion of it or a portion of bone exited from the
throat, the collapse of the lungs and the frothing of air at the throat
are both indications of a punctured lung--it would be difficult to
explain by that particular bullet's path.

I think that an openminded investigating and prosecuting agency would
have found, at the outset, in view of the medical evidence available
at the outset, that the President was shot from the front while
facing slightly to the right, and after passing the book depository
building--an openminded investigating body in Dallas, the district
attorney's office or the police, or others who were associated in that
investigation, might have considered abandoning their theory that
Oswald was the assassin and that he acted alone, and might have been
led by the factual data to investigate in other areas as well--clearly
something that they did not do.

I have been informed by reporters, for example, that--reporters from
foreign countries covering the trial, that some of them were very
concerned about the fact that they would now not be able to leave
Dallas, that clearly the airports would be closed, there would be
roadblocks placed on many of the streets, the trains would be stopped
or searched, in order that the assassin or those who assisted him,
or those who assisted the assassins, might be prevented from readily
leaving the entire area.

I am informed by the reporters in the area that there were no such
roadblocks, that planes continued to leave, trains continued to leave,
and that the prosecution continued with its theory that Oswald was the
assassin, that he acted alone, and they had secured his arrest, and
there was nothing more to be done other than to prove as conclusively
as possible, utilizing the press as we know, and the television, and
the radio media for that purpose.

And while I am on this question, I wonder if I might ask the Commission
to give consideration to--although I don't believe that it is
present in any of the six panels which have been established by the
Commission--but to give consideration nevertheless to the 48 hours
in which Oswald was in custody, in reference to what happened to his
rights as an American citizen, charged with a crime in this country.

The statement by the National Board of the American Civil Liberties
Union, that had Oswald lived he could not have secured a fair trial
anywhere in this country.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be sure, Mr. Lane, that that will be given most
serious consideration by the Commission, and the Commission has already
appointed as an act in that direction the President of the American
Bar Association, with such help as he may wish to have, to make an
investigation of that very thing. I assure you it will be done by the
Commission.

Mr. LANE. Getting back to the evidence, Mr. Chief Justice, the
spectator closest to President Kennedy, a Mrs. Hill, who was a
substitute teacher in the Dallas public school system, stated to me
that she was in her view the closest spectator to the President, and
was standing alongside a Mary Moorman, who resides in Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have the date of this interview, Mr. Lane?

Mr. LANE. It was within the last week. She stated to me that she was
the closest spectator to the President, she and her friend, when the
President was struck by a bullet. She said that she heard some four to
six shots fired.

Now, she was standing on the grass across the--across Elm Street,
across from the Texas Book Depository Building. She said that in
her--it is her feeling that all of the shots, the four to six shots,
came from the grassy knoll near the triple overpass which was at that
time directly in front and slightly to the right of the Presidential
limousine, and that in her view none of the shots were fired from the
Book Depository Building which was directly across the street from her,
and which was to the rear of the Presidential limousine.

She said further that after the last shot was fired, she saw a man run
from behind the general area of a concrete facade on that grassy knoll,
and that he ran on to the triple overpass.

She told me that standing alongside of her was Mary Moorman, who took
a picture of the President just a brief moment before the first shot
was fired, and that agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation took
the film from Miss Moorman, and gave her a receipt, which she still has
in her possession, but that she has not been able to see the picture,
and that it is possible that the picture included the entire Book
Depository Building, taken just precisely a second or less before the
shots were fired.

Tom Wicker, who is a member of the New York Times White House staff,
who was the only New York Times reporter in Dallas when the President
was shot, stated in an article which appeared in the Saturday Review,
on January 11, 1964, "As we came out of the overpass, I saw a
motorcycle policeman drive over the curb, cross an open area, a few
feet up a railroad bank, dismount, and start scrambling up the bank."
Ronnie Dugger, who is the editor of the Texas Observer, a statewide
publication in Texas, stated in his publication on November 29, 1963,
and later stated to me in two different interviews material of the same
nature.

I am now quoting from the publication:

"On the other side of the overpass a motorcycle policeman was
roughriding across some grass to the trestle for the railroad tracks,
across the overpass. He brought his cycle to a halt and leapt from it
and was running up the base of the trestle when I lost sight of him."

Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us the date of the paper that came from?

Mr. LANE. Yes. That was the Texas Observer, November 29, 1963. That
statement has been confirmed by Mr. Dugger to me in two interviews in
Dallas.

James Vachule, who is a reporter for the Fort Worth Star Telegram,
said, "I heard the shots, several, at the triple overpass."

And Jerry Flemmons, reporting also for the Fort Worth Star Telegram,
on November 22, 1963, stated, "Kennedy was gunned down by an assassin,
apparently standing on the overpass above the freeway."

Now, I spoke to a Mary Woodward, who is an employee of the Dallas
Morning News, and she stated that she was present with three coworkers,
all employees of the Dallas Morning News, and they were standing near
the--the base of the grassy knoll, perhaps 50 feet or so from the
overpass, with the overpass to their right, and the book depository
building to their left. And on November 23, 1963, the Dallas Morning
News ran a story by Miss Woodward, and I have since that time spoken
with Miss Woodward by telephone, and she has confirmed portions--the
entire portion which I will quote from now--in her conversation with me.

That is, that as she and her three coworkers waited for the President
to pass, on the grassy slope just east of the triple overpass, she
explained that the President approached and acknowledged their cheers
and the cheers of others, "he faced forward again, and suddenly there
was an ear-shattering noise coming from behind us and a little to the
right."

Here we have a statement, then, by an employee of the Dallas Morning
News, evidently speaking--she indicated to me that she was speaking on
behalf of all four employees, all of whom stated that the shots came
from the direction of the overpass, which was to their right, and not
at all from the Book Depository Building, which was to their left.

Miss Woodward continued, "Instead of speeding up the car, the car came
to a halt. Things are a little bit hazy from this point, but I don't
believe anyone was hit with the first bullet. The President and Mrs.
Kennedy turned and looked around as if they, too, didn't believe the
noise was really coming from a gun. Then after a moment's pause there
was another shot, and I saw the President slumping in the car."

This would seem to be consistent with the statement by Miss Hill that
more than three shots were fired.

In addition to these statements, James A. Chaney, who is a Dallas
motorcycle policeman, was quoted in the Houston Chronicle on November
24, 1963, as stating that the first shot missed entirely. He said he
was 6 feet to the right and front of the President's car, moving about
15 miles an hour, and when the first shot was fired. "I thought it was
a backfire", he said.

Now, Miss Hill told me that when she was questioned--put that word
unfortunately in quotation marks--by the U.S. Secret Service agents,
that they indicated to her what her testimony should be, and that is
that she only heard three shots. And she insisted that she heard from
four to six shots. And she said that at least one agent of the Secret
Service said to her, "There were three wounds and there were three
shells, so we are only saying three shots." And they raised with her
the possibility that instead of hearing more than three shots, that she
might have heard firecrackers exploding, or that she might have heard
echoes.

Despite this type of questioning by the Secret Service, Miss Hill
continued to maintain, the last I spoke with her, about a week ago,
that she heard from four to six shots.

Now, to the best of my knowledge, from my investigation, which has been
very severely limited by lack of personnel and almost total lack of
funds, and, therefore, is clearly not the kind of investigation which
is required here--but from this limited investigation, it seems that
only two persons immediately charged into the Texas Book Depository
Building after the shots were fired. They were an officer of the Dallas
Police Force, Seymour Weitzman, who submitted an affidavit to the
Dallas police office, in which he stated that he discovered the rifle
on the sixth floor of the Book Depository Building.

There was one other gentleman who ran into the building, and that was
Roy S. Truly, who was and is, I believe, the director of the Book
Depository Building.

However, Mr. Truly stated that he believed that the shots came from the
direction of the overpass and from the grassy knoll. And although he
was standing directly in front of the Book Depository Building, he did
not believe that the shots came from that building.

Standing with him at the time of the assassination was O. V. Campbell,
who was the vice president of the Book Depository Building.

In the Dallas Morning News on November 23, 1963, it was stated that
"Campbell says he ran toward a grassy knoll to the west of the building
where he thought the sniper had hidden."

So we have two persons that we know of standing in front of the Book
Depository Building, and they both thought that the shots came from the
grassy knoll near the overpass.

The police officer, Seymour Weitzman, submitted an affidavit to the
Dallas district attorney's office, he and Mr. Truly, as I indicated
a moment ago were the only two who charged into the Book Depository
Building when the shots were fired.

Weitzman indicated in his affidavit--I assume you have the original of
that affidavit--that he ran "in a northwest direction, scaled the fence
toward where we thought the shots came from."

He indicated "then someone said they thought the shots came from the
old Texas Building. I immediately ran to the Texas Building and started
looking inside."

So even the two people who ran into the building indicated that they
did not believe the shots came from the building.

Mr. Weitzman went into the building because someone whose name he
did not give in his affidavit told him to go into the building, and
then Truly explained that although he thought the shots came from the
general direction of the grassy knoll or the overpass in front of the
President's limousine, he saw this officer run into the building, of
which he is a director, and he felt that since he knew the building and
the officer did not, he should go in the building to assist the officer.

From published accounts, and from my investigation, I can only find one
person who thought that the shots came from the building, and that was
the Chief of Police in Dallas, Jesse Curry, who said as soon as the
shots were fired, he knew they came from the building. From the Book
Depository Building.

Now, of course, there were many persons present there whom I have not
quoted, to whom I have no access.

Now, I spoke on several occasions with the reporter for the Fort Worth
Star Telegram, whose name is Thayer Waldo. Mr. Waldo was standing with
a police captain near the Dallas Trade Mart Building, which was the
building, public building, where the President was going to have spoken
that day. Mr. Waldo was awaiting his arrival, the President's arrival
there, when a sergeant who was seated in a police cruiser called the
captain over hurriedly to the police car. Mr. Waldo accompanied the
captain to the police car. And Mr. Waldo stated to me that he heard
the first bulletin which came over the Dallas police radio, and it was
"Bulletin. The President has been shot. It is feared that others in his
party have been wounded. The shots came from a triple overpass in front
of the Presidential automobile."

So even the police, despite the Chief of Police's later assertion that
he knew that the shots came from the Book Depository Building, behind
the Presidential limousine, the first police radio broadcast indicated
that it was the police position at that time that the shots came from
the front, not from the rear.

Now, Patrolman Chaney, who I made reference to a little earlier,
the motorcycle patrolman, stated that the Presidential car stopped
momentarily after the first shot. That statement was consistent
with Miss Woodward's statement in the Dallas Morning News, that the
automobile came to almost a complete halt after the first shot, and the
statement of many other witnesses as well.

Mr. RANKIN. When was that statement made?

Mr. LANE. That statement appeared in the newspaper I made reference to
before, the Houston Chronicle, on November 24, 1963.

Mr. RANKIN. When you made an independent inquiry at any time, would you
tell us, Mr. Lane?

Mr. LANE. Yes, I certainly shall do that.

Now, I think one has to conjecture as to why the Secret Service agent
who was undoubtedly trained for this assignment, and particularly the
agent who was driving the Presidential limousine in Dallas, where
we were told that the greatest efforts ever to protect an American
President were going to be made that day, because of the previous
difficulties in Dallas, the attack upon our Ambassador to the United
Nations and the attack upon the then Senator Johnson, when he spoke in
Dallas in 1960--one would assume that the most qualified Secret Service
driver that could be secured would be driving that automobile. It is
difficult to understand why the automobile almost came to a complete
stop after the first shot was fired, if the shots were coming from the
rear. The natural inclination, it would seem, would be to step on the
gas and accelerate as quickly as possible. However, if the driver were
under the impression that the shots were from the front, one could
understand his hesitation in not wanting to drive closer to the sniper
or snipers.

In addition, however, Roy Kellerman, who was in the front right-hand
seat of the automobile, who I am told was in charge of the Secret
Service operation that day, the director of the Secret Service not
being present in Dallas on that occasion--according to the pictures
printed in Life magazine, Mr. Kellerman looked forward until the first
shot was fired. Then he turned back, and looked at the President. He
immediately looked forward again, and was looking in the direction of
the overpass while the second shot was fired, and while the third shot
was fired.

One would certainly expect that Mr. Kellerman was and is a trained
observer, who would not panic in such a circumstance, for which he has
received his training.

The pictures I make reference to are those in Life magazine which I
referred to a little earlier in the afternoon.

Senator COOPER. May I ask a question there, Mr. Chief Justice?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, go right ahead, Senator.

Senator COOPER. This last statement you made, about the Secret Service
agent who turned, so that he was faced to the rear, toward the
President, and then turned forward--I didn't quite understand what you
deduced from that.

Mr. LANE. I assumed that he was looking toward the sound of the shots.

Senator COOPER. You mean when he turned to the rear, or turned ahead?

Mr. LANE. Well, when the President was shot, and was struck he then
turned around, which I would imagine would be an ordinary response when
somebody in an automobile with whom you are riding has been shot.

But immediately after that, before the second shot was fired, he turned
completely to the front, and was looking at the overpass during the
remainder of the time that the shots were fired. It would seem to
indicate to me that it is possible that Mr. Kellerman felt that the
shots were coming from the general direction in which he was looking.

Mr. RANKIN. What do you base your statement on that the car stopped,
the President's limousine?

Mr. LANE. The statement made by various witnesses, including Mr.
Chaney, a motorcycle policeman, Miss Woodward, who was one of the
closest witnesses to the President at the time that he was shot, and
others. I think that is the--I haven't documented that beyond that,
because that seemed to be so generally conceded by almost everyone,
that the automobile came to--almost came to a complete halt after the
first shot--did not quite stop, but almost did. And, of course, you
have the films, I assume, of the assassination and know more about that
than I do, certainly.

Now, in reference to the rifle, there is on file--I assume that you
have it or copies of it--in the Dallas district attorney's office or
the police office in Dallas, an affidavit sworn to by Officer Weitzman,
in which he indicates that he discovered the rifle on the sixth floor
of the Book Depository Building at, I believe, 1:22 p.m., on November
22, 1963.

Now, in this affidavit, Officer Weitzman swore that the murder
weapon--that the weapon which he found on the sixth floor was a
7.65 Mauser, which he then went on to describe in some detail, with
reference to the color of the strap, et cetera.

Now, the prosecuting attorney, of course, took exactly the same
position, and for hours insisted that the rifle discovered on the sixth
floor was a German Mauser, adding the nationality. A German Mauser is
nothing at all like an Italian carbine. I think almost any rifle expert
will indicate that that is so.

I have been informed that almost every Mauser--and I am not able to
document this, unfortunately, but I am sure that you have easy access
to rifle experts--that almost every German Mauser has stamped upon it
the caliber, as does almost every Italian carbine.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you know the difference between the two?

Mr. LANE. Do I know the difference?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. LANE. I know the difference between an Army M-l and an American
carbine--those are the only two weapons I fired--during the war. No, I
don't know anything about rifles, other than those two rifles, which I
used at one time.

I think it is most interesting to note that when Oswald was arrested
we were informed immediately that he had an alias--his last name was
Lee in that alias--as well as a great deal of material about his
political background and activities on behalf of the Fair Play for Cuba
Committee, and his defection to the Soviet Union, et cetera. But the
alias was raised immediately.

The following day, on the 23d, when it was announced by the Federal
Bureau of Investigation, that Oswald had purchased an Italian carbine,
6.5 millimeters, under the assumed name, A. Hidell, then for the first
time the district attorney of Dallas indicated that the rifle in his
possession, the alleged murder weapon, had changed both nationality
and size, and had become from a German 7.65 Mauser, an Italian 6.5
carbine. And, further he indicated then for the first time that they
knew of another alias maintained by Lee Oswald. In addition to the
name Lee, which they discovered, they said, by going to the home where
he lived--the house where he had lived in Dallas, where he rented a
room, a rooming house, they discovered there he had secured the room
under the name Lee. Mr. Wade stated that on Oswald's person, in his
pocketbook, was an identification card made out to A. Hidell, and
I have seen pictures of this reproduced in either Time magazine or
Newsweek, or one of the weekly news magazines--I believe it was one or
the other--with a picture of Oswald appearing on this card, plainly
indicating that Oswald had the alias A. Hidell, to Mr. Wade.

I think it is interesting that the name Lee as an alias was released
immediately, although some investigation was required to secure that
alias. But the name A. Hidell, was not released as an alias, although
that was present and obvious by mere search of Oswald's person when he
was arrested.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us the time of the release of the information
about the alias, A. Hidell?

Mr. LANE. That was on November 23.

Mr. RANKIN. And how about Lee?

Mr. LANE. November 22. The first release of the name A. Hidell came
from the district attorney's office after the FBI had indicated that
Oswald had purchased an Italian carbine under that name.

If I were permitted to cross-examine Mr. Wade, which evidently you have
decided that I shall not be permitted to do, and Officer Weitzman, I
would seek to find out how about the most important single element in
probably this case or any other murder case, physical evidence, the
murder weapon, in a case which I am sure is Mr. Wade's most important
case--how he could be so completely in error about this.

Mr. Wade is a very distinguished prosecuting attorney, has been one for
some 13 or 14 years, and I believe was an agent of the Federal Bureau
of Investigation prior to that time.

I would like to know how he could have been so wrong about something so
vital.

Now, assuming that the rifle found on the sixth floor was an Italian
rifle, Italian carbine, one must wonder how it was possible for any
number of things to happen for it to be fired there three times and
strike the President in front of the throat, although he was past
that building, and for the noise, according to the witnesses of the
shooting, to have come from a different place entirely.

But in addition to that, one must wonder if that rifle is capable of
the performance which the prosecuting authorities allege that it gave
on that day. An Olympic rifle champion, Hubert Hammerer, said that he
doubts that it could be done.

Mr. RANKIN. Could you give us his address?

Mr. LANE. He is not in the United States. The story appeared in the New
York Times. I don't have the exact date.

Representative FORD. What nationality is he?

Mr. LANE. I don't know.

Representative FORD. Do you know when he was Olympic champion?

Mr. LANE. No, I don't know that. I do know it probably was some time
after the Italian carbine was manufactured, since it is an extremely
old weapon, manufactured back in 1938, as I recall. There seems to be
an agreement that the period of time was between 5 and 6 seconds from
the first shot to the last shot.

There is a serious question in the minds, I think, of persons who have
fired that pistol--that rifle--first of all, as to its ability to be
fired that quickly accurately with a telescopic sight, and secondly, in
reference to the ammunition which is available. Various persons have
tested various lots of ammunition. Someone from the National Rifle
Association told me that he tested more than 30 rounds, a little over
30 rounds of the Italian 6.5----

Mr. RANKIN. When you refer to these people, will you tell us the names
of any of them that you can? It might be of help to us.

Mr. LANE. I should remember this gentleman, because I just spoke with
him. That is another name I am going to have to supply for you.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you.

Mr. LANE. He is a member of the board of directors of the National
Rifle Association. He purchased for one of the television networks some
30 rounds, a little over 30 rounds, and told me that 20 of them did
not fire at all, and 6 of them were guilty of hanged fire, which is a
phrase I don't know anything about, but he tells me that means it did
not fire fully, and, therefore, could not be accurate. Therefore, a
very small percentage of the ammunition was of any value.

Mr. Ed Wallace talked about making a similar test in the New York World
Telegram and Sun, in a feature article, and I think he said that he
went with an expert, and they got 20 rounds of this ammunition, and of
those 17 did not fire--only 3 fired. It was very old ammunition.

Representative FORD. Who is Ed Wallace, and who is the individual that
Ed Wallace referred to? Do you have that information?

Mr. LANE. I believe Mr. Wallace indicated that he was present when the
test was made. But it was an article appearing in the New York World
Telegram and Sun within a week after the assassination--from the 23d to
the 30th of November. And I can secure and mail to you a copy of that
article, if you prefer.

While there may be some question as to whether or not a rifle expert
could secure such performance from a rifle, or whether or not one could
secure enough good ammunition to get such performance, I think there
is general agreement that only in the hands of a rifle expert could
one attempt to come close to that kind of shooting that it is alleged
Oswald did on November 22.

The Times reported on November 23, "As Marines go, Lee Harvey Oswald
was not highly regarded as a rifleman." And you have in your files,
of course, the scorecard indicating Oswald's marksmanship or lack of
marksmanship while in the Marine Corps.

In addition to that, you have the documents given to you by Marguerite
Oswald, Lee Oswald's mother, which contained a scorecard maintained by
Oswald while in the Marine Corps, showing his score in fast and slow
shooting at various different yardages, in reference to both an M-l, as
I recall, and an American carbine. Now, of course, it has been alleged
on occasion that Mr. Oswald practiced with his rifle, on occasion, on
weekends, at rifle ranges.

Mrs. Paine, with whom Lee Oswald's wife lived for the 2 month period
preceding the assassination, and where Lee Oswald himself spent
weekends for that 2 months period preceding the assassination, told me
that Oswald could not have ever gone to a rifle range on a weekend,
since she can account for his whereabouts during that entire 2 month
period just preceding the assassination.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you give us the day of that conversation with Mrs.
Paine?

Mr. LANE. I have had about five conversations with her. The first one
would be, oh, I believe, New Year's Day. I think that is the first
time--this year--I believe that is the first time that she made the
statement to me. She said she could account for Oswald's whereabouts
during that 2 month period on weekends, from Friday late afternoon,
when he left work in Dallas and arrived there in Irving, until early
Monday morning.

She said the exception is during that time--she didn't watch him every
moment, of course--there might be exceptions when she went shopping for
half an hour, and he was left home to take care of the children, her
two children, his children. But that unless he ran out quickly into the
back yard with the rifle and shot and then quickly put the rifle away
while caring for three children, or four children, that it would be
impossible for him to practice with the rifle on weekends.

Since it has been alleged that the rifle was in the garage during the
entire period of time, of course--that was in Irving, Tex., and he was
in Dallas, Tex.--it would have been impossible for him to practice
during the week while he was in Dallas, with that particular rifle.

Of course one must zero in a rifle in order to be even fairly accurate
with it. One must practice with the specific weapon which one is going
to use, in order to have any accuracy, in any event.

Now, I spoke with Dial M. Ryder, who is a gunsmith in Irving, Tex.,
at the Irving Sport Shop, and he told me that he mounted a telescopic
sight on a rifle for a man named Oswald during October 1963.

Now, unfortunately, he does not recall--that is around the deer
season, he informed me, and a lot of people are getting rifles
fixed or repaired or sights mounted on them during that time in the
Dallas-Irving area. And he does not recall, therefore, what this
gentleman named Oswald looks like.

But he does know that a rifle was brought to him by someone whose name
now appears in this record as Oswald, and that he drilled three holes
in the rifle for a mount, telescopic mount. He said he had only seen
three rifles which required three holes for telescopic mount--a 303
British Enfield, a 303 American Springfield army surplus rifle, or an
Eddystone, which is also an American rifle. He said, therefore, he did
not attach a telescopic sight to the Italian carbine, because he would
have only drilled two holes.

His employer, I think his name is Greener, he told me, checked with all
the Oswalds they could find in the Irving area after this matter came
to their attention, and could not find anyone in that area--and they
called some people in Dallas also named Oswald--could not find anyone
named Oswald who brought the rifle in to him.

I talked to Milton Klein, who is the owner of Klein's sporting
goods store in Chicago--Klein's Sporting Goods is the name of the
establishment, in Chicago.

Mr. RANKIN. When was this?

Mr. LANE. I spoke with him within the last 2 or 3 days. And he told
me that--he runs the mail-order house which sent the carbine, Italian
carbine, to Dallas, not to Oswald, but to A. Hidell, and that he sent
that out with the holes already bored in the Italian carbine, and
equipped with a telescopic sight which was already attached to the
rifle.

Aguto Marcelli, who is a correspondent for an Italian publication which
appears physically very much to be like Life magazine, called Leuropeo,
stated to me that he had spoken with Mr. Klein, and Mr. Klein told him
that the FBI--"The FBI warned me to keep my trap shut."

Mr. RANKIN. When was this?

Mr. LANE. He told me this about 2 weeks ago. When I spoke with Mr.
Klein, about 3 days ago, 2 or 3 days ago, he indicated that he did not
want to discuss any aspect of this matter with me. And I asked him if
that was because he was told not to talk with anyone about this case,
and he said yes.

And I said, "Who told you that?"

He said, "The FBI agents told me, ordered me not to discuss this case."

I pointed out to him that if he did not wish to discuss the case
with me, I would not force him to. There was no way that he would
be compelled to answer any of the questions that I asked him. But,
however, in our democratic society, the FBI cannot order anyone not to
discuss a case, and that such an order to him was not a valid order, if
he wanted to discuss the case with me--he could.

So he did. And he told me what I informed you--that the FBI told him
not to discuss the case, and that he mailed this rifle with the holes
already bored and with the telescopic sight already mounted to someone
named A. Hidell.

He also said that "No ammunition was purchased from me by Hidell at
that time or since."

Senator COOPER. Mr. Chairman, may I ask a question?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did he name any person with the FBI who told him not to
discuss the case?

Mr. LANE. No; he did not.

Senator COOPER. Can you identify--did he identify him in any way?

Mr. LANE. He did not identify him. Earlier, perhaps before you arrived,
Senator, I made reference to a statement made by Mrs. Hill, who was
told by the Secret Service--I think perhaps you were here--that only
three shots were fired. And I asked her specifically if she could
identify that Secret Service agent, and she told me that she could not,
there was such tremendous confusion at that time, there were so many
agents of the FBI and Secret Service that she spoke to, that she did
not think she could. But possibly if she saw him, she might be able to
recognize him.

I didn't go any further into that question, however, with Mr. Klein. He
seemed very reluctant to discuss that entire area--to discuss anything,
but particularly that area.

I read in the Dallas Times Herald, on November 25, 1963, the statement
made by Mr. Wade, when asked what they had tying Oswald to the
"crime of the century" and his response was, according to the Dallas
Times Herald, "If I had to single out any one thing, it would be the
fingerprints on the rifle, and the book cartons which he used to prop
the weapon on."

On the same day the World Telegram and Sun reported "Federal
authorities have concluded that no readable print was found on the
murder weapon when it was flown to Washington for laboratory studies."

There were certain leaks that a fingerprint or a palm print was
discovered on the bolt of the rifle. If that is so, it would be
remarkable if it were a print belonging to anyone other than Captain
Fritz of the Homicide Squad in Dallas, because according to the
affidavit signed by Officer Weitzman, who discovered the weapon, and I
am quoting now from the affidavit on file--at that time on file with
the district attorney's office, "The time the rifle was found was 1:22
p.m. Captain Fritz took charge of the rifle, and ejected one live round
from the Chamber. I then went back to the office after this."

Now, you know if you have worked with that rifle that the--on most
Italian carbines that bolt is not worked too easily. One really has to
grab a hold of it and pull back. It would be unusual if a fingerprint
belonging to someone other than the person who did that survived.

The first statement made by Mr. Wade in reference to the taxi driver
who he alleged--he, Wade, alleged took Oswald generally from this
scene, indicated that the driver's name was Daryl Click.

Now, that statement was not made in the first hours of the arrest. That
statement was not made until after Chief Curry had announced to the
press in Dallas, on that day, November 24th that the case was closed,
there would be no further investigation--Oswald was the assassin, he
had acted alone, he was then dead. And as a result of the change in
policy, to reopen the case and have Mr. Wade assume a position in front
of the radio and television microphones and cameras of the Nation, on
that evening November 24, Mr. Wade then presented what he said was the
evidence "for you piece by piece." And part of the evidence which he
had secured was the proof that a taxi driver named Daryl Click drove
Oswald roughly from the scene to his home, to Oswald's home.

When I was in Dallas--I suppose this was on January 2d, my first trip
there in reference to this matter--I spoke with a Mr. Roseboro of the
Teamsters Union--they have organized the taxi drivers in Dallas--and
asked him if he knew--if he could give me any information about a Daryl
Click. He said he did not have the name in his files, but Texas being a
right-to-work law State, it is possible, he said, that Mr. Click was a
driver but not a member of that union. He referred me to the personnel
department of the City Transportation Co., which he told me was the one
company monopoly running all the taxis in Dallas.

I spoke with the City Transportation Co. personnel office, Mr. Pott, as
I recalled, who checked the records, and indicated to me that there was
no Daryl Click who drove a taxi in Dallas.

Some time after Mr. Wade stated that Daryl Click was the taxi driver,
he then stated that a person by the name of William Whaley was the taxi
driver who took Oswald from the scene after he left the bus to his home.

It is therefore alleged by the prosecution that Oswald, after firing
upon the Presidential limousine, walked the entire floor from the front
of the Book Depository Building to the rear of the warehouse, almost
to the extreme rear, where he hid the rifle, where it was found, and
then took the stairs at the rear of the Book Depository Building and
walked down four flights, until he arrived at the second floor, and
then he walked to the Coca-Cola machine, which was at the front of the
building, meaning he crossed the entire warehouse floor again, and
he purchased a Coca-Cola, and was sipping it when a police officer
arrived with a gun drawn, questioned him briefly. Mr. Truly explained
to the officer that Oswald worked there. And eventually Oswald left the
building, boarded a bus, then walked, after leaving the bus--walked two
blocks and entered Mr. Whaley's taxi, at exactly 12:30, according to
Mr. Whaley. The shots that killed the President were fired at 12:31.

Now, there is on file in the district attorney's office--I assume you
have the original or copies of it--a report of a paraffin test taken
of Oswald, of both his hands and his face. The test proved, according
to Mr. Curry, and the statement that he made on Saturday, November
23, to the press that Oswald had fired the murder weapon. However, a
reading of the test indicates that one could come to a very different
conclusion.

The test in reference to the face proved negative, indicating that
Oswald had not fired a rifle on November 22, 1963--although the test on
the hands showed positive--indicating, according to the person who did
the analysis, the kinds of patterns consistent with one having fired
a revolver. That was the statement on the test taken and conducted by
a Louis L. Anderson, on November 23, 1963, by the Dallas City County
Crime Investigation Laboratory.

Now, it has, of course, been alleged that after Oswald shot the
President and took a bus and a taxi, and went home and got a jacket,
he then shot and killed Officer Tippit. The affidavit in the district
attorney's office indicates that a person saw a stopped police car,
walked up to the police car, leaned on it with his arms on the window,
or what would be a windowsill or window ledge of the automobile, and
then stepped back a step or two, the officer came out, and this person
shot Officer Tippit to death.

The affidavit is peculiarly sparse in reference to the description of
the assailant, the man who killed Tippit, by an eyewitness who said she
was just 50 feet away.

Her description of this person is found in two different portions of
the affidavit--he was young, white, male, and that is the entire
description present in the affidavit at that time.

I spoke with the deponent, the eyewitness, Helen Louise Markham,
and Mrs. Markham told me--Miss or Mrs., I didn't ask her if she was
married--told me that she was a hundred feet away from the police
car, not the 50 feet which appears in the affidavit. She gave to me
a more detailed description of the man who she said shot Officer
Tippit. She said he was short, a little on the heavy side, and his
hair was somewhat bushy. I think it is fair to state that an accurate
description of Oswald would be average height, quite slender, with thin
and receding hair.

Helen Markham said to me that she was taken to the police station on
that same day, that she was very upset, she of course had never seen
anyone killed in front of her eyes before, and that in the police
station she identified Oswald as the person who had shot Officer Tippit
in the lineup, including three other persons. She said no one pointed
Oswald out to her--she was just shown four people, and she picked
Oswald.

She said--when I asked her how she could identify him--she indicated
she was able to identify him because of his clothing, a gray jacket and
dark trousers. And this was the basis for her identification--although
Oswald physically does not meet the description which she indicated.

Representative FORD. When did you have this conversation with the
deponent?

Mr. LANE. Within the last 5 days.

Representative FORD. Some time in late February 1964?

Mr. LANE. Or perhaps even early March, yes, sir.

Now, I inquired--I told her that I was coming here today, and that I
was completing my investigation as Oswald's lawyer, and asked her if
she would discuss the matter with me, and she said she would.

I asked her if anyone had asked her not to discuss this matter with me.
At first she seemed reluctant, and she said she was reluctant because
I called her at her place of employment, the Eat Well Cafe in Dallas.
I tried her at home many times before then, but her phone was always
busy. I believe it is a phone which is not her personal one, but is a
common phone shared by others in the building where she resides.

I apologized for calling her at her place of employment. And she seemed
reluctant to talk to me. I asked if anyone had asked her not to talk
about this case with anyone. She said yes, she had been told by the
FBI, by Secret Service agents, and by Dallas police, all three groups,
not to discuss anything in relation to this case, and that by and large
she had not.

I told her that somewhere it occurred to me that I had seen an article
in a newspaper in which she described the assailant of Oswald as short,
stocky, and with bushy hair--I'm sorry, the assailant of Tippit--as
being short, stocky, with bushy hair. And she said she did talk to a
reporter, she thinks, for one of the Dallas newspapers, the Dallas
Times-Herald or the Dallas Morning News--but that is the only time she
talked to anybody.

I would like to call to the Commission's attention the entire brief
narrative of the entire case, as presented by the district attorney's
office at this point, or at least on the 24th, because it seems to me
to be so full of incredible happenings, that it would be very difficult
to submit such a story to a jury by a prosecution generally.

If everything that the prosecution in this case says is true, one must
conclude that Oswald behaved in a very, very unusual manner from the
beginning to the end.

He decided on Thursday, November 21, that he was going to assassinate
the President, and so he decided to go back to Irving, Tex., to secure
a rifle there, in order to carry out that purpose. He had on his person
some $13 when arrested, and almost $150 in cash in the top drawer
of his dresser--so we can assume that on Thursday, the 21st, he had
roughly that amount of money present.

One can purchase a rifle for less than $13 in many stores in Dallas.
There is no question about that. By using a small portion of that $150,
he could have purchased a rifle absolutely superior to the Italian
carbine at home in Irving in many respects. And there are gun magazines
which have had editorials dwelling on this question, saying that if
Oswald did it with this weapon, and they do not move into the question
of whether or not he did, it was an absolute miracle, because no one
who knew anything about rifles would have chosen such a decrepit,
worthless rifle, as this Italian carbine, manufactured in 1938, for
which there is such pure ammunition. There are a series, I believe, of
editorials in gun magazines proving that Oswald, I think, as a matter
of pride, from a sportsman's viewpoint--that Oswald was in no way
associated with weapons and did not belong in that category, because he
could not have chosen such a weapon.

Representative FORD. Could you give us the citations of one of these
magazines?

Mr. LANE. Yes. One is called Gun Magazine. I do not recall the names.
But that is one of them. I am sure there was such an editorial in that
one. I will get the other one and mail those to you also.

But I think there would have to be a more compelling reason for Oswald
not to go home and get that particular inferior rifle if he decided on
Thursday to kill the President. That was the only rifle in the whole
world probably that could be traced to him. One can purchase a rifle
in almost any community in this country, certainly in Dallas, without
any notoriety attaching to it, without giving one's name or address, or
having a serial number attached to a receipt kept by a store indicating
who owns that particular rifle.

But here we have Oswald going home to get an inferior rifle, which
rifle is the only rifle in the whole world which can be traced to him,
which rifle he is going to leave behind as a calling card after the
assassination is complete.

And so he goes home to Irving, Tex., and he gets this rifle, and
he wraps it up in paper, we are told, and brings it in to the Book
Depository Building.

Now, the rifle can be broken down, I believe, from examining other
Italian carbines. But it would be not much shorter if it was broken
down--perhaps 6 or 7 inches shorter. Evidently, though, he did not do
that.

So he took this rifle into the book depository building, which I
suggest, gentlemen, is a most remarkable thing. This was going to be
the greatest series of precautions in the history of the United States
to protect an American President. As we know now, and suspected then,
with very good reason, because of the nature of what had gone before,
with reference to public officials in Dallas--and here we have a
man who has defected to the Soviet Union, who has married a Russian
national, active on behalf of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, we
see a discharge less than honorable from the U.S. Marine Corps, who
was working in the building exactly on the Presidential route. Not
only is it on the Presidential route, but it is the building where the
automobile is going to have to clearly slow down because of the sharp
turn, sharp left turn, made right in front of the building.

And despite all of these precautions--and I have been informed that
there were serious precautions taken in Dallas on that day by the
Dallas police and by others, and that persons who did no more publicly,
who did no more ever politically than to publicly speak in favor of
school integration, were followed that day as potential assassins in
Dallas.

Nevertheless, Oswald, with that background, is permitted to walk into
the Book Depository Building, directly on the Presidential route,
carrying with him in his hand a full rifle.

Mr. RANKIN. Can you tell us the information on which you base this,
about anyone who merely spoke about school integration?

Mr. LANE. Yes. A reporter for the Dallas Morning News told me that,
told me he was absolutely certain that was so. But before revealing
his name, I am going to have to call him and indicate I am going to do
that. I will be happy to do that. I am glad you are interested in that
matter, because I think it is a most important one.

I suggest that the Federal Bureau of Investigation knew that Oswald
worked at the Texas Book Depository Building, which was on the
Presidential route. An FBI agent by the name of Hosty visited the home
of the Paines in Irving, Tex., sometime during September and October.
He visited that home on more than one occasion. Each of the at least
two times that he was there, possibly three but I am not certain--but
I was told he was there two times--I know I was told by Mrs. Paine
in the presence of her husband, Michael Paine, that Agent Hosty was
there at least on two occasions--each time he was there he asked
where Oswald was. Mrs. Paine explained to Agent Hosty, she told me,
that Oswald lived there only on weekends, and that during the week
Agent Hosty could find him at his room in Dallas, where he stayed
during the week, or during the daytime could find him at the Texas Book
Depository Building, where he was an employee. Nevertheless--and that
Oswald would not be found in Irving, Tex. at the Paine's home during
the week. Nevertheless, Agent Hosty returned again at least one more
time to the Paine home in Irving, during the week, during the day,
I believe--certainly during the week--and again asked about Oswald,
and again Mrs. Paine told him that he worked at the Book Depository
Building, he would not be there, she said, "As we told you last time
he won't be here during the week. During the daytime during the week
you can find him at his job at the Book Depository Building, and during
the nighttime during the week you can find him at his rooming house in
Dallas."

Mr. RANKIN. Did she tell you whether she told him where the rooming
house was?

Mr. LANE. I do not believe I asked her that question, and I don't
believe she mentioned that.

Well, to go back to the prosecution narrative, or narrative according
to the facts presented by the prosecution, Oswald was on the sixth
floor, fired at the Presidential limousine, not as the automobile
approached the building, when the automobile came extremely close to
the building, so close that possibly even with that weapon one could
have shot occupants of the automobile from that window--but it is
alleged that Oswald never shot--it is now alleged that Oswald never
shot when the automobile was right outside of the building, but fired
when the automobile was some 75 yards beyond the building, when the
first shot was fired.

Then Oswald walked the entire floor--or ran--the entire floor of the
warehouse to the rear of the building, placing the rifle in between
some boxes, but visible, so that one can see it when one arrives on
the floor; went to the rear stairs, walked down the four flights to
the second floor, then to the front of the building again, where he
purchased a Coca-Cola--made no effort to leave the building at that
time, evidently was going to wait until the building was surrounded by
police before leaving.

He stayed at the top of the stairs near the Coke machine long enough so
that a police officer could come up and place a pistol near him, and
Roy Truly, the director, then intervened indicating that Mr. Oswald was
employed at the building at that time, and the officer then went on to
do other things in the building, including later on, I believe, to find
the rifle, if it was the same officer.

Mr. Truly stated that Oswald was quite calm when the officer approached
him on the stairs. He said although he did seem a little concerned
about that pistol being stuck at him--but otherwise he seemed quite
calm at that time.

Well----

Representative FORD. Where was this statement made, or testimony given?

Mr. LANE. By Truly?

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. LANE. This was reported very widely in probably dozens or scores
of newspapers. The New York Times carried that, as did many other
publications--direct quotations from Truly who was interviewed.

Then the next thing we heard from the prosecution in their opening or
closing statement to the television cameras, after Oswald was killed
was that--the next we hear of Oswald he was on a bus. Well, if Oswald
boarded the bus where the busdriver claims he did, then Oswald walked a
distance, in order to secure a bus which is going to take him directly
back to the Book Depository Building, which one would think he was
trying to flee after assassinating the President.

I would refer you to his story by Hugh Ainsworth in the Dallas Morning
News published during the first week after the assassination. Hugh
Ainsworth and Larry Grove published on November 28 in the Dallas
Morning News--this is headed "Oswald Planned To Ride By Scene"--in
which there are statements from the busdriver that--named C. J.
McWatters, in which Mr. McWatters indicates that Oswald entered the bus
at Elm and Griffin, and further indicates that the bus was going to
go seven blocks further west and turn at Houston Street, exactly the
scene of the assassination, or at least the scene of the Texas Book
Depository. So Oswald traveled somehow some seven blocks in order to
secure a bus which is going to take him back to the place that he left.

Now, although I have talked to Mr. Ainsworth, and he tells me that the
story is absolutely correct, and he questioned Mr. McWatters quite
thoroughly, and he will so testify, I believe, if he is asked--Mr.
Ainsworth will--and the affidavit which Mr. McWatters signed, or which
the busdriver signed, he does not state that Oswald walked seven blocks
and was going to get on a bus which was going to take him back. Indeed,
he states that he picked him up about Elm and Houston Street, at the
Book Depository Building. But the busdriver indicates that that story
in his affidavit is not true. He indicated that after the affidavit was
drawn and signed by him.

Mr. RANKIN. What did you say was not true, Mr. Lane--which part of it?

Mr. LANE. The affidavit. Mr. McWatters indicates that the affidavit in
which--let me start that again.

There is an affidavit from the busdriver, which I am sure you have,
which shows that according to his statement Oswald came into the bus
at Elm and Houston Street. However, the busdriver since that time has
indicated that Oswald came into the bus seven blocks from Elm and
Houston Street, and had entered a bus which was going to take him
to Elm and Houston Street. Elm and Houston Street of course is the
location of the Book Depository Building.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, when you say since that time he has indicated that,
you mean to you or to someone else?

Mr. LANE. To those two reporters for the Dallas Morning News with whom
I discussed--one of them--I discussed this specifically. And he said
that every word in that story is absolutely accurate, that he went to
see the busdriver, and had a prolonged interview with him, and went
over this in great detail with him. I think these two reporters will
testify as to what the busdriver told them in their interview with him.

Mr. RANKIN. But they have not published this later story that you are
telling about.

Mr. LANE. Yes, they have. That is the date that I gave you. The Dallas
Morning News, on Thursday, November 28, under the headline "Oswald
Planned To Ride By Scene".

Mr. RANKIN. Do you want to leave that with us?

Mr. LANE. I wonder if copies can be made of everything.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes.

Mr. LANE. Then I will be happy to leave it.

Mr. RANKIN. The story you were just referring to in the Dallas Morning
News is Commission Exhibit 343.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 343 for
identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. LANE. That's correct.

Well, now, Oswald allegedly had shot the President and has walked some,
talked to an officer, was calm, walked some seven blocks to find a bus
which was going to take him back to where he left, and then got off and
got--entered into a taxi after he had walked some two blocks from where
he left the bus. And this taxi he entered of course a minute before the
President was shot, if the taxi driver's log is accurate--after Oswald
had done all these things, after allegedly shooting the President and
the Governor.

Then the taxi driver drove him directly past his own home, according to
the statement and--past Oswald's Dallas rooming house, until he arrived
at a scene about a half a mile beyond Oswald's house, where Oswald then
left the taxi, and then walked or ran home to secure a jacket--leaving
behind, although one would assume he is now giving considering to
escaping, the $150 in the dresser drawer, and taking just his jacket
with him.

Mr. RANKIN. Which dresser drawer?

Mr. LANE. This is in Dallas.

Mr. RANKIN. Not at the Paine's?

Mr. LANE. Not at the Paine's. I do not know if there was money at the
Paine's, but if he had money there, he left that behind the night
before, knowing he was going to----

Mr. RANKIN. But the $150 you are speaking of was in his rooming house
at Dallas.

Mr. LANE. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have any affidavit or information in support of that
statement about the $150?

Mr. LANE. I do not have an affidavit. I have the statement of a
reporter who was told that--he was told this by a police officer who
was present when the money was found in the Dallas rooming house. I
have his statement. I can again ask for his permission to release that.

Mr. RANKIN. Would you do that, please.

Mr. LANE. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Mr. Chairman--perhaps it has been done, but I think it
would be proper in all cases in which he has referred to conversations
that he has had with individuals who made statements to him about some
aspect of this matter, and whose names he has not identified, that if
he could give to the Commission in all of those cases the names of the
individuals who gave him this information.

Mr. LANE. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. I mean at sometime--don't you think?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes, sir, it would be very helpful.

Mr. LANE. Yes, sir. I think there are only two occasions where I
indicated I had to check the source, and one is the name of the rifle
association board member whose name I will be happy to give to you, but
I just do not recall it--my office has that.

Senator COOPER. I did not remember that you gave the name of this
individual who told you that some policeman had told him that he had
been present when the $150 was found.

Mr. LANE. Yes; that is one.

Senator COOPER. Did you give that name?

Mr. LANE. No; I did not give that name.

Mr. RANKIN. You said you were going to ask him his permission.

Mr. LANE. Yes; that's correct.

Then Oswald took a taxi, which took him approximately a half mile
beyond his own house, his own room in Dallas, and he either walked or
ran back to get his jacket--although it was a very warm day in Dallas.
That day Mrs. Kennedy said later on that, reviewing the moment before
the President was shot--she said she saw this overpass ahead and looked
forward to being under it for a moment because there would be some
brief shade to protect them from the powerful sun that day.

Well, Oswald ran home to get his jacket. He left the house, saw
a police car parked, went up to the police car, according to the
affidavit of Mrs. Markham, leaned on the car, and when the officer
came out, he shot him to death, and then he went to the movies. And in
the movies, and just before he went into the Texas Theatre, he was so
extremely agitated that a gentleman on the outside of the theatre--I
think his name is John Brewer--I am not certain--you have that
affidavit, I am sure--indicated that Oswald was acting very agitated,
the cashier made the same statement, and changing from seat to seat.
The police were called and he was arrested.

Of course, one would wonder why Oswald, who might have thought that
he had made his getaway while in the Texas Theatre unobserved, would
become so extremely agitated, when just a moment after he allegedly
shot the President and the Governor, with the policeman charging up the
stairs, pointing a pistol at him, about to arrest him for these two
terrible crimes, he was calm, according to Mr. Truly, but he became
agitated only when he thought he had secured his getaway.

I think those of us who saw, as we all did, I guess, Oswald on
television in his brief appearance would conclude that he seemed, even
while in custody and charged with these two crimes, somewhat calm under
the circumstances--calm when charged with the assassination, calm a
moment after killing the President, when a policeman pointed a pistol
at him, but agitated only in the theatre, and just before going to the
theatre when he might have concluded that he was then in the clear.

I would just like to conclude on this note.

I hope the Commission will give consideration to my request, which the
Commission has answered, but which again I would like at this time to
renew. That is, that I be permitted, at the request of Mrs. Oswald,
the mother of the accused defendant, really, before this Commission's
hearing, to represent his interests here, to have access to the
material which you have access to, and the right to present witnesses.

It is not usual for an attorney representing a party to be given an
opportunity to testify, which is quite unusual--but rather to be given
the opportunity to present witnesses and to cross-examine them. It has
generally been my role in criminal cases. Never before have I testified
in behalf of a client.

If it is the Commission's position that this is not a trial in any
respect, and therefore Oswald is not entitled to counsel, that is the
position with which I would like to respectfully offer a dissent.

The fact that Oswald is not going to have a real trial flows only from
his death, and he is not responsible with that having taken place.
Every right belonging to an American citizen charged with a crime was
taken from him up to and including his life.

I think now that that episode is completed, hopefully never to reappear
ever again in our history, or anything close to it--I think it would
be proper to permit him to have counsel before the Commission, counsel
who can function on his behalf in terms of cross-examining evidence and
presenting witnesses. If it is the Commission's position now that he is
entitled to counsel, and the Commission will appoint counsel, then I
ask the Commission to consider that the Constitutional right to counsel
involves the right to counsel of one's choice, or in the event of the
death of a party, to counsel of the choice of the surviving members of
the family.

If Marina Oswald, the widow, sought to have counsel represent her
husband I would think--here--I would think that would cause a conflict
and a problem, if the widow and also the mother made the same request.
But as I understand it no request has been made by the widow, who
has indicated to the press that she believes her husband is guilty,
and through her former business agent, Mr. Martin, who I am told
was secured for her by the Secret Service as a business agent, she
indicated that even a trial which might prove he was innocent, she
would still be sure he was guilty, and has indicated since that time
no desire to my knowledge to secure counsel for her husband, her late
husband, before the Commission.

I think, then, the mother would, in almost any jurisdiction, be the
next person to make a decision in this area, and the mother has made a
decision, as you know. She has retained me to represent the rights and
interests of her son.

I think under those circumstances it would be proper for the Commission
to permit me to participate.

This, of course, is not a jury trial. With all due respect to the
integrity and background of each of the members of the Commission,
I suggest that it is not the function of the trying body to appoint
counsel, or the jury to appoint counsel, but in our society it is just
the reverse; it is the function of defense counsel to participate in
determining who the jury should be.

Many criminal lawyers, very noted counsel, would probably seek to
excuse certain--and again no disrespect at all is meant to the
background of members of this Commission--but defense counsel generally
seeks to excuse as jurors those who are in any way associated with
the Government in a criminal case. And here we have the Government
appointing the jury, and then the jury picking counsel, who also is
Government connected at this time. I in no way wish to raise the
question of the integrity of any of the members of the Commission
or counsel or anyone else, or their ability. But that truism about
equality has some meaning in terms of impartiality--everyone is
impartial to some people, and more impartial to other people. And
counsel, in order to function, I believe, must be totally independent
and totally committed to the responsibility of representing his client.

But above all, he must be secured by someone who has the ability to
speak for the deceased, in this case his mother and his wife. And under
those circumstances, I renew my request that I be permitted to, at the
request of Lee Oswald's mother, who survives him--to function before
this Commission as counsel on his behalf.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Lane, I must advise you that the Commission, as you
already know, has considered your request and has denied it. It does
not consider you as the attorney for Lee Oswald. Now, this is not for
any discussion. We are not going to argue it. You have had your say,
and I will just answer.

Lee Oswald left a widow. She is his legal representative. She is
represented by counsel. This Commission is cooperating with her in
any way she may request. If anyone else wants to present any evidence
to this Commission, they may do so. But it is the view and the
wish--the will of the Commission--that no one else shall be entitled to
participate in the work and the deliberations of the Commission.

We asked you to come here today because we understood that you did have
evidence. We are happy to receive it. We want every bit of evidence
that you have. You may present anything that you wish to us. But you
are not to be a participant in the work of the Commission. I assume you
have some questions you would like to ask Mr. Lane, Mr. Rankin?

Mr. RANKIN. Yes, sir. Do you have any affidavits that you would like
to submit to the Commission? I understood at one time you had some
affidavits.

Mr. LANE. Well, I do have some affidavits. They are not originals--they
are photostatic copies of affidavits taken by the Dallas police and
on file in the Dallas district attorney's office. Now--including the
paraffin test which I made reference to.

Now, if the Commission does not have copies of those, I would like to
be so informed and I will see what I can do. I assume the Commission
has copies of all those documents.

Mr. RANKIN. Yes. Do you have anything beyond that that you care to
submit?

Mr. LANE. I have the various statements which I have made reference to
from Mrs. Hill and Mrs. Markham, Mr. Klein, Mr. Ryder. But I have given
you the essence of those statements. If you are interested in pursuing
that, I think it might be best to call them.

Mr. RANKIN. I am interested if there was anything beyond what you have
given us, Mr. Lane. And if you say you have given us the substance,
then I take it that is complete as far as it could be of assistance to
us, except our going directly to the witness. Is that what you have in
mind?

Mr. LANE. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, do you have any witnesses that you would like to
present for the Commission?

Mr. LANE. Well, I would like--I do not know that I would be able to do
that, frankly.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, would you have any that you suggest that we should
interview, bring before the Commission, that you have not presented up
to this time in your testimony?

Mr. LANE. No; there is no one who I know of other than those names I
have given, and two other persons whose permission I am going to have
to secure in reference to other matters, and hopefully they will be
willing to not only allow their names to be used, but to come forward
and testify, if you wish to hear them.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, is there any documentary evidence beyond which you
have submitted that you would like to submit to the Commission?

Mr. LANE. Not beyond what I have submitted or made reference to.

Mr. RANKIN. In regard to the paraffin that you have referred to, do
you have any particular materials or anything you want to refer the
Commission to?

Mr. LANE. To that particular test taken by Mr. Anderson on November 23d?

Mr. RANKIN. Anything beyond that?

Mr. LANE. No; not at this time.

Mr. RANKIN. Now, I understand at one time you referred to some meeting
in the Carousel Club a week or so before the assassination. Do you have
any material on that or any information?

Mr. LANE. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything you would care to present to the
Commission?

Mr. LANE. Yes. I have been informed--and this is the source I will have
to check with again in order to secure his testimony----

Mr. RANKIN. You will advise us if you are permitted to.

Mr. LANE. Yes. But I can tell you the substance--that a meeting took
place on November 14, 1963, in the Carousel Club between Officer Tippit
and Bernard Weissman, Mr. Weissman being the gentleman who placed a
full-page advertisement in the Dallas Morning News which was printed on
November 22, asking a series of questions of President Kennedy. It was
addressed "Welcome to Dallas, President Kennedy. Why have you traded
the Monroe Doctrine for spirit of Moscow. Why has Gus Hall and the
Communist Party endorsed your 1964 election" and such matter. I think
these two give a rather clear indication of the kind of advertisement
that it was. And I have been informed that Mr. Weissman and Officer
Tippit and a third person were present there. I have been given the
name of the third person. But for matters which I will make plain to
the Commission, I will be pleased to give you the name of the third
person as given to me, but not in the presence of the press. I would
rather do that in executive session--that one piece of testimony.

The CHAIRMAN. That is satisfactory to do that, if you wish.

Mr. LANE. Thank you, sir.

Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything else about that incident that you know
and want to tell the Commission at this time?

Mr. LANE. No.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the entire story, is it?

Mr. LANE. That they were there for more than 2 hours conferring--these
three persons.

The CHAIRMAN. Your information does not--is not to the effect as to
what they were conferring on.

Mr. LANE. No; they did not hear that.

Mr. RANKIN. I am not suggesting, Mr. Lane, that you have been selective
about what you have told the Commission and what you have not told, but
I do wish to make the inquiry as to whether there is any information
you might have that the Commission should be informed of as to other
people that you might have interviewed in regard to this matter.

Mr. LANE. I have given the Commission at this time everything that I
know.

Mr. RANKIN. Is there anything about the palm prints that you can tell
us in addition to what you have given us?

Mr. LANE. Not in addition to what I have said.

Mr. RANKIN. Well, I will ask you generally--is there anything in
addition to what you have said that you would like to tell the
Commission at this time that has any bearing upon this investigation?

Mr. LANE. All I can say in reference to that, Mr. Rankin, is that I
am practically engaged in this project by myself, which means I am
extremely limited. This is not my profession--investigator. I am an
attorney. And there are many leads which I have followed, which have
led me nowhere at all, obviously. Before finding Mrs. Markham or before
finding Mrs. Hill, there were many other persons I talked to who were
not even present, who I have heard were present. But there are still
large numbers, probably at this point hundreds of leads which I have
heard of, and which I have not yet been able to trace or to check
through. I do not think it would be constructive just to tell you all
of the things I have heard, because most of them are patently untrue,
and they just require a great deal of work. But I will continue to do
that, and should I come across any material which might in any way
interest you, I will certainly either write to you for the purpose of
presenting it to you through the mail in affidavit form, if you prefer,
or indicate that I will be available to come and testify again if you
prefer that.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Lane, your client, Mrs. Marguerite Oswald, when she
was testifying before us, told us that she had sold some pictures to
the press and she wanted the originals of all the pictures that she
presented to us, because she said they were of great financial value to
her. Do you know what sales she has made concerning pictures such as
you have shown us?

Mr. LANE. In terms of the picture with the rifle, you mean, for example?

The CHAIRMAN. Well, we might start with that.

Mr. LANE. She has never seen such a picture, she has informed me, of
Lee Harvey Oswald with the rifle--except after they had been published.
She never had any knowledge of such pictures, and had never seen them.

I do not really represent Marguerite Oswald. She has retained me to
represent the interests of her son. And so in her business dealings in
terms of her sale of pictures and articles, I have not represented her.
I believe she has a literary agent or perhaps even another lawyer--I
don't know. But she has retained me to represent her son's interests,
not to represent her at all.

The CHAIRMAN. I see.

Mr. LANE. Of course, we have conferred. But I do not have that
information.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. RANKIN. Mr Lane, I have a further question. Have you ever been
prevented by any law enforcement officer from interviewing anyone
concerning this matter when you wished to?

Mr. LANE. Well, I would say that I have been prevented by the
statements made by the law enforcement persons or agents to the
individual, that he should not talk to anyone about this case, that it
is a secret matter. As I have indicated, Mr. Klein----

Mr. RANKIN. You have described those cases, have you?

Mr. LANE. I have also spoken to a reporter who is employed by a Dallas
newspaper, who informed me that he sought to question more than 150 in
the area, and that many of those persons informed him that they were
ordered by the FBI not to talk to anyone about this case, and that
almost none of the witnesses would talk with him about the case, and
that some of them, when he asked the reason that they were not talking
to him, it was "Was this because you have been told by the FBI?"--and
he indicated they were not even allowed to answer that question. But
many of them told him that the FBI or the Secret Service ordered them
not to talk. In no other respect have I been interfered with to my
knowledge.

Mr. RANKIN. Do you have the name of that reporter--can you reveal that
to us?

Mr. LANE. I cannot reveal it at this time, but I am hopeful you will
permit me to. He is one of the reporters I referred to earlier.

Mr. RANKIN. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator, do you have any questions?

Senator COOPER. No; I have no questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Rhyne.

Mr. RHYNE. Mr. Chief Justice--I wanted to ask Mr. Lane, on his inquiry
about what happened to Oswald during the 48 hours he was under
detention--you suggested that the Commission make an inquiry into
whether his civil rights were denied. Do you have any information on
that subject?

Mr. LANE. Yes. I saw what happened--I read in the newspapers and heard
on the radio.

Mr. RHYNE. It looked to me that most of the material presented here
today was really in the newspapers. You are merely repeating what
someone else has said.

Mr. LANE. I don't think that is an accurate characterization of my
testimony at all, sir. For example, I told you before of conversations
that I have had--I know you listened intently--I told you of
conversations that I had with Mr. Klein. I told you of conversations
I had with Miss Hill, who is probably the closest eyewitness to the
assassination, with Miss Woodward, who is perhaps the second or third
closest witness to the assassination, with Dial Ryder, with at least
two or three other persons.

Mr. RHYNE. But on this one point, with respect to denial of any civil
rights or protection of civil rights during this 48-hour period, you
say that is all in the newspaper stories?

Mr. LANE. No. What I meant by that response was that the basic denial
that I was discussing was the development of the case publicly against
him, so that it would be impossible in securing a jury panel to secure
12 jurors probably anywhere in this country who had not reached a
conclusion, first of all. And secondly, obviously the death of the
accused, which I know is a matter for the Commission's inquiry already.

Mr. RHYNE. I notice that you said your investigation was incomplete. So
I just wanted to be sure that I understood what you meant with respect
to this 48-hour detention period.

Mr. LANE. No; I have no knowledge over and above that that I could give
you in that area.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Murray, do you have any questions you would like to
ask?

Mr. MURRAY. No; I have none, Mr. Chief Justice, at this time.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mr. Lane, if any evidence should come to your
attention in the future, would you be willing to convey the information
to the Commission?

Mr. LANE. Yes; I certainly would, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We will appreciate it if you would. Thank you for your
attendance.

We will adjourn at this time.

(Whereupon, at 5:35 p.m., the President's Commission adjourned, and
reconvened in executive session.)



TESTIMONY OF MR. LANE RESUMED IN EXECUTIVE SESSION


The CHAIRMAN. The session will be in order.

Mr. RANKIN. Will you proceed, Mr. Lane, in executive session now, to
describe the names?

Mr. LANE. The third name that I was informed--the person that I was
informed was there, the third person, is named Jack Ruby. It was my
feeling, of course, while his case was pending it would not be proper
to comment on that in the presence of the press.

Mr. RANKIN. You mean the third person in the group apparently
conferring?

Mr. LANE. Yes. Tippit, Weissman, and Ruby.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you made any public statement of this kind before on
this subject--about this meeting?

Mr. LANE. Not about Ruby--about a meeting between Weissman and Tippit,
yes.

The CHAIRMAN. But you never named Ruby publicly?

Mr. LANE. No; I have not. I shall not.

The CHAIRMAN. I see. Do you know any way by which we might corroborate
that meeting--the fact that it was held?

Mr. LANE. I am going this evening to see, or tomorrow--I will try this
evening first--to see if I can secure permission by my informant to
reveal his name, and I hope he will be willing to come forward and
testify as to what took place.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission would like to know it, if you can do that.

Mr. LANE. Yes; I shall inform you as soon as I discover that. I would
like very much for the Commission to have that information. Can I
indicate to my informant that the matter can be so raised so that his
name will not be known to anyone other than the Commission?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, sir; you may.

Mr. LANE. That will be extremely helpful.

The CHAIRMAN. If you can think of any way that can be corroborated, it
would be most helpful to us.

Mr. LANE. I understand.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman, you just got in as we are about to adjourn.
Mr. Lane was telling us of one piece of information that he had
concerning a meeting that was held at the Carousel Nightclub, about a
week, did you say----

Mr. LANE. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. About a week before the assassination, at which the man
who financed this full-page article in the paper, Dallas paper, this
morning, concerning President Kennedy, and Officer Tippit, and he told
us in private here--he didn't want to mention it before the press--Jack
Ruby. And he tells us that he will try to find out from his informant
more about that, and if he possibly can deliver the information to us.

Senator COOPER. May I ask one question?

I assume from what you have said you wouldn't be able to answer it, but
was there any reason ascribed for the presence of Tippit?

Mr. LANE. My informant does not know the reason.

Senator COOPER. Or Ruby, with Weissman?

Mr. LANE. My informant does not know that information.

Representative FORD. May I ask a question, Mr. Chief Justice? When did
this information come to your attention, Mr. Lane?

Mr. LANE. Some weeks ago.

Representative FORD. Do you consider the informant a reliable,
responsible person?

Mr. LANE. Yes. I cannot vouch, of course, for the information
personally, but I believe the informant is a reliable and a responsible
person.

Representative FORD. Would your informant be willing, as far as you
know--be willing to testify and give the Commission this information
directly?

Mr. LANE. I am going to try to arrange that this evening. The Chief
Justice has indicated that his name would not be known if he did that,
and that I did not know that I could make that statement to him before
now. I hope that will be decisive.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything further, gentlemen?

If not----

Representative FORD. May I ask, Mr. Chairman, are we going to have a
schedule laid out, are we going to have a meeting of the Commission
where maybe we will know what the schedule is in the next week or 10
days or 2 weeks?

Mr. RANKIN. We have a draft now.

The CHAIRMAN. We have a draft for you to see.

Mr. LANE. Perhaps I should withdraw at this time.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. Lane, thank you very much, sir.

(Whereupon, at 5:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)



_Monday, March 9, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF ROY H. KELLERMAN, WILLIAM ROBERT GREER, CLINTON J. HILL,
AND RUFUS WAYNE YOUNGBLOOD

The President's Commission met at 9:10 a.m. on March 9, 1964, at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman
Cooper, Representative Hale Boggs, and Representative Gerald R. Ford,
members.

Also present were Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Arlen Specter,
assistant counsel; Walter Craig and Charles Murray, observers; and Fred
Smith, Treasury Department.


TESTIMONY OF ROY H. KELLERMAN, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, the Commission will be in order. Will you be
seated, please?

Would you state the names of the witnesses who are to be heard today,
Mr. Specter?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, Your Honor; the witnesses are to be Roy Kellerman of
the Secret Service, William R. Greer of the Secret Service, Clinton
Hill, also of the Secret Service, and Rufus Youngblood, representative
of the Secret Service.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, gentlemen; you know the purpose of the
meeting, and we will call first, Mr. who?

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman is our first witness.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Kellerman. Gentlemen, I want to announce that today
it will be necessary for me to spend practically all of the morning
with the Supreme Court, and in my absence Congressman Ford will conduct
the hearing today because he can be here practically all the time. I
will be here in and out throughout the day, however.

Congressman Ford, will you take over please?

Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you proceed? I believe the first thing is to swear
the witness.

Mr. SPECTER. Very good, sir.

Representative FORD. Do you promise to tell the truth, the whole truth,
so help you God?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I do, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. KELLERMAN. My name is Roy H. Kellerman.

Mr. SPECTER. By whom are you employed, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am employed as a special agent for the Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. How old are you?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am 48 years old.

Mr. SPECTER. Married?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Pardon?

Mr. SPECTER. Are you married?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; I am married and have two daughters; their
ages are 20 and 17.

Mr. SPECTER. Where do you reside?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Bethesda, Md.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your current duty station with the Secret Service?

Mr. KELLERMAN. My current duty station is assistant special agent in
charge of the White House detail.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been with the Secret Service?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is my 23d year.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you sketch in a general outline what your duties have
been with the Secret Service since the time you started with them,
please?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I was appointed an agent with the Secret Service in
Detroit, Mich., the 19th of December 1941. I was transferred to
Washington, D.C., the field office, on February 9, 1942. Prior to
that I had a 30-day assignment in the office of Cincinnati, Ohio,
temporarily. I worked in the Washington field office from the 9th of
February 1942 until the middle of March 1942, whereby I was temporarily
transferred to the White House detail. This transfer became permanent,
effective, I believe it was, the 17th of April or the latter part of
April in 1942, still as a special agent.

At the White House detail we work on shifts around the clock,
protecting the President and his family. I was a member of one of
those three shifts. Presently, these shifts change on a two-weekly
basis, from 8 to 4, 4 to midnight, and midnight to 8. I remained on the
White House detail until February 7, 1951, when I was transferred to
Indianapolis, Ind. Prior to that time I had received enough seniority
whereby I grew up on this shift from the bottom to the top, and was in
charge of one of the shifts prior to my departure to Indianapolis. This
was fieldwork in Indiana.

On February 1, 1955, I was transferred back to the White House detail.
On my return I was comparable to like, let's say, the No. 2 man of a
shift. I was not in charge of it.

From 1955, I believe a couple of years later a vacancy occurred, a top
man of that shift left and I received his position. That title was
assistant to the special agent in charge. You at that time governed
each man on your shift. You were in charge of him.

On October 1 of 1962 a vacancy was opened in the three top officials of
the White House detail, which are comprised of, let me say, the special
agent in charge, who has two assistants; one vacancy occurred. It was
the oldest man on the White House detail; it was given to me and that
is why today I have the title of assistant special agent in charge.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, since you brought us up to 1955, have your duties
remained the same since that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I should bring you up to 1964. In 1955, I was
transferred back to the White House detail, remained on that status on
shift work until 1962, whereas I am now an assistant special agent in
charge, which duties are the overseeing and the complete responsibility
of the entire White House detail.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background, Mr.----

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am a high school graduate only.

Mr. SPECTER. What year did you graduate from high school?

Mr. KELLERMAN. 1933.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities between graduation from high
school and the time you joined the Secret Service, please?

Mr. KELLERMAN. In October of 1937 I completed the training with the
Michigan State Police. I was sworn in as a trooper. I remained with the
Michigan State Police until December 18, 1941, when I resigned and was
appointed to the U.S. Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. How were you employed or occupied from the time of
graduation from high school until the time you joined the Michigan
State Police?

Mr. KELLERMAN. 1933 there wasn't too much work; 1935 was my first work
with the Dodge Corp. of the Chrysler people in Detroit.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you work there, sir?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Three years, off and on.

Mr. SPECTER. You described in a general way the organization of the
Secret Service on the White House protective detail. Who is the special
agent in charge?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Gerald A. Behn, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he the special agent in charge back on November 22,
1963?

Mr. KELLERMAN. He was.

Mr. SPECTER. How many shifts are there?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Three shifts, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And approximately how many men are assigned to each shift?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Ten men on each shift, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your specific duties back on November 22 of 1963?

Mr. KELLERMAN. My specific duty, gentlemen, on the 22d of November of
1963, I was in charge of the detail for this trip of President Kennedy,
for the trip to Texas in those 2 days.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you personally make the trip to Texas?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I rode on the President's plane on the entire tour.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline in a general way the times of departure
and arrival on the trip to Texas up until the morning of November 22,
please?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I just don't have the time we left Washington, D.C.

Mr. SPECTER. Without the precise times; just in a general way.

Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. We departed in the morning from Washington.
Our first stop was in San Antonio, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. Which morning was that, sir?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It was November 21; it was at San Antonio, Tex., that
we picked up the then Vice President Johnson. The two people continued
on this tour of the State in separate planes. During our stay in San
Antonio, we then flew from San Antonio to Houston, Tex. There were
ceremonies there, and the program there which had been set up. From
Houston we flew into Fort Worth, Tex., where we remained overnight on
November 21.

We arrived at the Texas Hotel, it was a little after 11 o'clock in the
evening. There were no activities until the following morning, November
22.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did the activities start the following morning?

Mr. KELLERMAN. On November 22, the activities started at around 8:25 in
the morning when the President, accompanied by the then Vice President
Johnson, and a few congressional leaders walked out the front door,
across this street which was a parking lot, and a few minutes' speech
was made to the gathering there. It was a light drizzle at the time.
From there we returned to the hotel and he attended a breakfast given
by the chamber of commerce and, I believe it was, a citizens group of
Fort Worth. On completion of the breakfast he returned to his suite.
The weather was then changing. It had quit raining and it looked
like it was going to break out and be a real beautiful day. In the
neighborhood of 10 o'clock in the morning I received a call from Mr.
Lawson, Special Agent Lawson, who had the advance from Dallas, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Lawson was with the Secret Service, was he?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; he is. He asked me to determine whether the
bubbletop car that the President would ride in in Dallas that day
should have the top down or remain up.

Mr. SPECTER. Let me interrupt you there for just a minute, Mr.
Kellerman. I show you a photograph which has been marked as Commission
Exhibit No. 344. Are you able to identify that picture and the
automobile in that picture?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; this is the 1961 Lincoln Continental four-door
convertible bubbletop. It is a special car.

Mr. SPECTER. For the purpose of the record, how many doors does that
car have?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This vehicle has four doors.

Mr. SPECTER. And in the posture of the picture identified as Commission
Exhibit 344, is the top up or down?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The top is down, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what top does that automobile have?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This top is a plastic top. From the rear of the
passenger all the way to the windshield there are four sections of
plastic glass. The one that comes over the top of the passengers in the
back seat, two little sections that come over the two doors, and one
over the driver and passenger in the front seat.

Mr. SPECTER. In what way is that attached, if any, to the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Securely bolted, screwed.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, may I ask that the Exhibit 344 be introduced
formally in evidence, please?

Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 344 for
identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 345.
Are you able to tell us what that depicts?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; this is the same vehicle as mentioned in 344.
The difference being the top is up and there is a covering, a cloth
covering that also fits over this plastic top.

Mr. SPECTER. And Exhibit No. 345 is taken from what angle, Mr.
Kellerman?

Mr. KELLERMAN. From the rear, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. As contrasted with Exhibit No. 344, which is taken from
what angle?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is from the right side.

Mr. SPECTER. I ask that Exhibit 345 be introduced, if the Commission
please.

Representative FORD. So admitted.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 345 for
identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 346,
Mr. Kellerman, and ask you if you can tell us what that depicts.

Mr. KELLERMAN. This picture depicts the interior of this same
automobile. It has a rear solid seat; there are two other jump seats
that can be folded forward in the rear and the complete solid front
seat for the driver and passenger. This is the same vehicle.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe what, if anything, is present between
the front seat and the rear seat area?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. This metal partition that is erected in back
of the driver, between the driver and the passengers in the rear seat,
is a metal framework that goes over the car. It has four holes in it.
These holes are utilized by the President for parades. As an example,
say it was used in Washington where you had an official visitor, and in
using one of the streets here as your parade route, he and his guest
would stand in this car where the people could view them a little
better than sitting in the rear seat.

Mr. SPECTER. Where is that metal bar positioned with respect to the
front seat?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It is positioned over the front seat; the top of this
bar would be 4 or 5 inches over my head.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it directly over the back portion of the front seat?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Directly over the front seat.

Mr. SPECTER. And you describe it as 4 or 5 inches over your head. Can
you give us an estimate of the distance above the top of the front seat?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, I am guessing in the neighborhood of 15, 18 inches.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the width of that metal bar?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The bar, 4 to 6 inches, I would say.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you tell us approximately how wide the automobile
itself is?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I can't.

Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the automobile, are there any running
boards?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There are no running boards.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any place on the car where someone can stand up
and ride as it proceeds in motion?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; on the rear of the vehicle, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How many such positions are there?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There is a step on each side of the spare tire, one man
on each one.

Mr. SPECTER. And is there any facility for holding on with a man riding
in those positions?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; there is a metal arm erected on the trunk
where a man can hold on while standing on the rear of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

May it please the Commission, I move that Exhibit 346 be introduced in
evidence.

Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 346 for
identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. With reference to the bubble top which you have heretofore
described, of what is that composed?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It is composed of plastic, clear plastic substance.
Its use would be for a weather matter whereby the President or his
occupants can see out. It is not an enclosed car.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it bulletproof?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It is not bulletproof.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it bullet resistant in any way?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It's not bullet resistant.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you describe in a general way at this point what
efforts, if any, have been made to obtain a bulletproof clear top for
the President's automobile?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Presently?

Mr. SPECTER. Presently or heretofore.

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to have to go in the present day.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine.

Mr. KELLERMAN. This same vehicle, I understand, is being completed with
a bullet-resistant top and sides.

Representative FORD. Can you explain the difference between bullet
resistant and the existing kind of the top?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I can't; I really can't. I have been behind on this
thing and I am at a loss for a better answer.

Representative FORD. Could the present top deflect in any way, destroy
the accuracy of a shot?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This would be a guess, Mr. Congressman. I would think
that it would be deterred for, let's say, the velocity of a missile
coming in at great speed, I think it would deter it; I don't think it
would eliminate--it still would enter the top.

Representative FORD. The vehicle.

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am sure; yes, sir.

Representative FORD. But as far as you know the top that was available
would not impede the projectile? Do you know whether or not it would
deflect its accuracy?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, I have tried to study that, sir. The angle of
the back as an example which is, what degree I don't recall, hoping
that--of course, it was now known to be an upshot into the vehicle
hoping that it would deter its force and so forth, but I really don't
know. I kind of doubt it.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, in describing the top as being not
bulletproof and not bullet resistant, state whether you are describing
the top which they are currently working on or the top which was
present at the time of November 22, 1963?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the top that they are currently working on.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, as to the bubble top which accompanied this car on
November 22, 1963, was that bulletproof or bullet resistant?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It was not; neither.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not an effort is being made at the
present time to develop a bullet-resistant or bulletproof top.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes sir; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you personally familiar with the progress of that
effort?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am not, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how the President's automobile was transported
from Washington, D.C., to Texas?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. The President's vehicle was transported to San
Antonio by cargo aircraft. It was flown to San Antonio a day before the
President arrived. It was then flown from San Antonio to Dallas, where
it was used on November 22. This vehicle was not used in the other two
stops at Houston and Fort Worth.

Representative FORD. When you say cargo aircraft----

Mr. KELLERMAN. Like a C-130, sir.

Representative FORD. A Government?

Mr. KELLERMAN. You are right, sir; that is right.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what were the President's activities, if
you know immediately prior to the time he departed from Fort Worth?

Senator COOPER. Might I ask just one question?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Do you know whether or not prior to November 22 the
President's car had ever been equipped with a top which had the
capacity to stop or deflect a bullet?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Never had been, Senator.

Senator COOPER. There was none in existence?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what were the President's activities
immediately before departing from Fort Worth on the morning of November
22?

Mr. KELLERMAN. First he walked from the hotel across the street, spoke
to a group that were in a parking lot, with other congressional people
there in Texas. From there he walked right into the hotel and entered
the ballroom where a breakfast was held, given to him by the chamber of
commerce and, I believe, the citizens group in Fort Worth.

From there he returned to his suite because there was time left before
his departure for Dallas. It was up there in the neighborhood of 10
o'clock in the morning that Special Agent Lawson called me from Dallas
asking me to verify whether the top should be put on--should remain
on the President's car or should be taken off due to the change of
weather. It had been raining slightly in Dallas at that time. I said,
"One moment and I will check with you one way or the other."

As I said earlier, the weather was clearing in Fort Worth; it was going
to be a nice day. I asked Mr. Kenneth O'Donnell, who is President
Kennedy's appointment secretary: "Mr. O'Donnell," I said, "the
weather; it is slightly raining in Dallas, predictions of clearing up.
Do you desire to have the bubbletop on the President's car or do you,
or would you desire to have it removed for this parade over to the
Trade Mart?"

His instructions to me were, "If the weather is clear and it is not
raining, have that bubbletop off," and that is exactly what I relayed
to Mr. Lawson.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, at about what time did President Kennedy depart from
Fort Worth?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We were airborne from Fort Worth at 11:20 in the morning.

Mr. SPECTER. In what plane were you airborne?

Mr. KELLERMAN. In the President's special plane, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive in that plane in Dallas?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We arrived in Dallas, Love Field, at 11:40 a.m.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe in a general way what President Kennedy's
activities were at Love Field, please.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Very well. May I add this: Again I said there were two
planes in this program. The then Vice President Johnson would be in
a separate plane. He would land ahead of us by a minute or two, all
right. He is in Dallas by the time we arrive at 11:40 a.m. As we are
spotted on the apron at Love Field and when the ramp is pulled forward,
the Vice President, then Vice President Johnson and Mrs. Johnson,
together with a selected group of people would form a reception
committee from the end of the ramp straight out to where the motorcade
was in place.

At 11:40, as I said, the President and Mrs. Kennedy left that plane,
met these people. As we finished greeting these folks here, there was
an elderly lady wheeled up in a wheelchair; her name I do not know; the
both of them met her. By this time the people are starting to get in
their automobiles for this trip into town. The President then noticed
that there was quite a gathering of people at this airport in back of a
fenced area, and, with her, they both walked over to this crowded area
and started shaking hands and greeting these people who had been there
perhaps some time before we got in.

Mr. SPECTER. By "her", who do you mean, sir?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mrs. Kennedy; I am sorry.

Mr. SPECTER. What would you estimate the crowd to be?

Mr. KELLERMAN. In the thousands; I would say there were two, three,
four thousand people there.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did the greeting of the crowd at
Love Field last, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Fifteen minutes. The motorcade left Love Field at 11:55.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many cars were there in that motorcade?

Mr. KELLERMAN. At least 15.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the first car in line?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The first car in line, sir, was what we call the police
pilot car. The duties of these police officers in that car--they would
drive ahead.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you personally know who was in that car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How far ahead of the regular motorcade were they to be?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They could be several blocks ahead of us.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the general purpose of that pilot car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The purpose of that pilot car is to clear the roadway
and instruct the officers along the route that the President is in
motion and coming in back of them. Next you will find a small group of
motorcycles.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how many motorcycles there were in Dallas on
that day?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you tell us what the custom is with respect to
motorcycles?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; those motorcycles that would be in back of
that police car were to assist any officers along the way in any
disturbance that they would run into before we got to that point, or
secondly, in the event that we needed them back on our car they could
be called, utilized.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the next car in line?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The next car is the lead car. That car on that day was
driven by Chief Curry of the Dallas Police Department.

His occupants in that car was Special Agent Winston Lawson, who was
carrying a portable radio with him. Also in this car was Special Agent
in Charge Verne Sorrels, in charge of our Dallas office. The other
occupant, I believe, was a deputy sheriff.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it Sheriff Decker, perhaps, of Dallas County?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The name doesn't reach me, sir; I am sorry.

Mr. SPECTER. You described a radio. Will you tell us a little more
fully what radio transmission there was in the motorcade, please?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. This lead car which Mr. Lawson was in has a
portable radio. The President's car is next. This is equipped with a
permanent set radio on the same frequency as that gentleman up front.
The next car is our Secret Service followup car which has a permanent
installation. The Secret Service car, as I say, is equipped with a
permanent installation which connects the President's car and the lead
car. The next car in back of our Secret Service car was the then Vice
President Johnson. The Secret Service agent in that car had a portable
radio that he could read all three of us ahead. His car following was a
small Secret Service followup car, and they, too, had a portable set,
which could read all four.

So we had a net of five on our own frequency. In the police cars they
had their own city police frequency radios.

Mr. SPECTER. How many frequencies were used by your own network?

Mr. KELLERMAN. One.

Representative FORD. Do you have an alternative frequency, emergency
frequency?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; we do. We have two of them.

Mr. SPECTER. What automobile came behind the lead automobile?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The President's car.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe the occupants of that car, indicating their
positions, if you can, please.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. The President--President Kennedy sat on the right
rear seat. Next to him on the left seat was Mrs. Kennedy. On the right
jump seat in front of President Kennedy was Governor Connally. On the
left jump seat in front of Mrs. Kennedy was Mrs. Connally. I sat on the
right passenger seat of the driver's seat, and Special Agent William
Greer drove the vehicle.

Mr. SPECTER. How far were you behind the lead car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No more than two or three car lengths.

Senator COOPER. What is that? I didn't hear it.

Mr. KELLERMAN. No more than two or three car lengths, Senator Cooper.

Mr. SPECTER. What car immediately followed the President's car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Our own Secret Service followup car.

Mr. SPECTER. What kind of a car was that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a 1956 Cadillac, four-door touring car with the
top down.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that also a special automobile flown in?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a special automobile, flown in with the
President's car; yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. And who were the occupants of that car, indicating their
positions in the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. All during this ride in from Love Field Special Agent
Sam Kinney was the driver of this automobile. The assistant to the
Special Agent in Charge Emory Roberts was sitting in the front seat,
the passenger side. This car has running boards. Standing on the front
of the left running board was Special Agent Clinton Hill. In back of
him on the rear of that same running board on that side was Special
Agent William McIntyre. On the right running board standing forward was
Special Agent John Ready, and standing in back of him on the rear of
the right running board was Special Agent Paul Landis.

Mr. SPECTER. Did that automobile have jump seats?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This automobile has jump seats.

Mr. SPECTER. And what people occupied the jump seats?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It was occupied by Mr. Kenneth O'Donnell, who was the
appointment secretary of President Kennedy, and Mr. Dave Powers.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know which sat on which side?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. O'Donnell sat on the left; Mr. Powers sat on the
right.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was in the back seat of that automobile?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The back seat of that automobile on the right side was
Special Agent George Hickey, and on the left side Special Agent Glen
Bennett.

Mr. SPECTER. How were the special agents in the followup car armed, if
at all?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Each agent carries his own gun. This is a 4-inch
revolver on their person.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that apply to you and Mr. Greer as well?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Absolutely.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other arms in the President's followup car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; in this followup car we have what is now known
as an AR-15. This is a rifle, and it is on all movements; this vehicle
is out of the case; it won't be shown; it could be laying flat on the
floor, but she is ready to go.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how far behind the President's car did the
Presidential followup car follow?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not knowing how far it was behind, I would say, from the
practice of that driver that he has, five feet would be a maximum.

Mr. SPECTER. What car was in the motorcade immediately behind the
President's followup car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That was Vice President Johnson's car then.

Mr. SPECTER. What kind of a car was that on that particular day?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This was a Lincoln four-door Continental convertible.
This was a four-door car, with no top on it.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that a special car, also, or is that obtained on the
market?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is not a special car; it is a car that is on the
market.

Mr. SPECTER. What car followed the Vice President's car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The car following his car was a police car. It was
driven by a member of the Dallas Police Force, or I just don't recall.
I am sorry.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have personal knowledge or detail of the occupants
of the Vice President's car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I do.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was present there?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Special Agent Rufus Youngblood sat in the front seat on
the right side. In back of him on the right side and the rear was the
then Vice President Johnson. Next to him was Mrs. Johnson, and next to
Mrs. Johnson was Senator Yarborough.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Vice President Johnson seated on the right side or the
left side of the rear seat?

Mr. KELLERMAN. On the right side, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there jump seats in the Vice President's car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of the driver of the Vice
President's car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That was Mr. Hurchel Jacks. He is a Dallas police
officer.

Mr. SPECTER. Might he be a Texas State police officer?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; you are right.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of all of the individuals in the
Vice President's followup car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not the driver. The agents, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Who were they, sir?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Special Agent Thomas L. Johns, Special Agent Warren
Taylor, and I believe that is all.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to indicate their precise positions?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, no.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what car, if you know, followed the Vice President's
followup car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That was car--as an example, car No. 1, which would be a
congressional car; the occupants I do not know at the present time.

Mr. SPECTER. And behind that car, describe in a general way the balance
of the motorcade, if you will, please.

Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. The balance of the motorcade, the back
of that car No. 1 which would be the congressional people would be
two press cars, one covering the wire people, and one would be the
photographic group. Then you would have a series of guest cars, and
then a press bus. And then a police car followup, bringing up the
entire motorcade.

Mr. SPECTER. You described the motorcycles which followed the pilot
car. Were there any other motorcycles in the motorcade?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; we had four other motorcycles opposite the
back wheel of the President's vehicle, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Were those on both sides or on each side?

Mr. KELLERMAN. On each side; two on each side.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other motorcycles in the balance of the
motorcade?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I recall.

Mr. SPECTER. At what speed did the motorcade proceed at the various
times en route, say, from Love Field down to the downtown section of
Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we left Love Field, the driveway from this apron on
the field was sort of a winding thing, and there were many people that
gathered on the roadside to view him as they passed. I don't think
we traveled more than 12 to 15 miles until we left the airport apron
proper.

Mr. SPECTER. Twelve to fifteen miles per hour?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Per hour.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Then, as we were in the opening between there and the
city limits of Dallas, we could have gone 25 to 30.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the size of the crowd at that specific point?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Nothing in between then until we hit the outskirts of
the city. Of course, then you got into a residential, a school, area
where all the people were out on the curb line.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the speed when you reached that area?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Then we would reduce the speed down to 15 miles an hour.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the minimum speed traveled
until you reached the downtown area?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We could have been going 25 to 30 at several times, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the crowds like in the downtown area itself?

Mr. KELLERMAN. A lot of people.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the speed of the motorcade when you came into the
downtown area?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It would be reduced down to 10 to 15 miles an hour, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any unusual occurrences en route from Love
Field until, say, you got to the downtown area of Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we were on the outskirts of this town and apparently
reaching a crowded area there were a group of youngsters on the right
side of the car curb-line-wise, that had a large sign, oh, perhaps the
width of the two windows there, that said, "Please, Mr. President, stop
and shake our hands," and he saw this and he called to the driver and
said, "Stop," he said, "call these people over and I will shake their
hands," which we did. The entire motorcade stopped. I got out of the
car and stood alongside of it while these people were right up on me.
The agents who were on the followup car, all around it. And then after
a few seconds he said, "All right; let's travel on."

Mr. SPECTER. You say the agents in the followup car moved up at the
stopping?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Always, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Specifically, what did they do on that occasion?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They crowded right in between the President, the car,
and the people.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the President actually leave the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long did that stop last?

Mr. KELLERMAN. A matter of seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other unusual occurrence en route to the
downtown area itself?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I can recall, however, one small affair. I think
we were in the heart of Dallas on this street when a young boy jumped
off the curb and apparently he was thinking of running over to the
President's car and shaking his hands when one of our people left the
followup car and put him back on the curb, and that all happened in
motion so there was nothing out of the way.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No.
347 and ask you if you are at this time able to tell us what that
photograph represents.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, may I interrupt at this time to ask to
be excused? I have a session in the Supreme Court, but I will be back
later.

Representative FORD. Thank you very much, Mr. Chief Justice.

(Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.)

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is an aerial photo of the downtown parade.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to identify the street on which you proceeded
coming into the area depicted by that photograph?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. This is--this would be Main Street as we came
into the heart of Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. I think it might be helpful if we marked that as Main
Street if we can get a pencil or pen that will mark on that.

Mr. CRAIG. May I suggest the witness mark it?

Mr. SPECTER. I think it is a good idea. Will you mark the street which
you have identified as Main Street?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Will you also mark----

Mr. KELLERMAN. We were traveling----

Mr. SPECTER. The street onto which you turned from Main Street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we were coming up from Main Street or down, either
way.

Mr. SPECTER. In what general direction were you proceeding on Main
Street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This was a westerly direction.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you put an arrow indicating which way is north on
the map? That is a general northerly direction on the map.

(Witness indicating.)

Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark an arrow on Main Street showing the
direction on which you were proceeding on Main? And how far did you
proceed on Main Street to what street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Elm Street, sir. This is a very short block, maybe a
couple of hundred feet at the most.

Mr. SPECTER. My question was to what street did you proceed on Main?
You then drove to what street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Houston Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Which way did you turn onto Houston Street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Turned right, which would be north.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark the street that you have told us would be
Houston Street?

(Witness indicating.)

Mr. SPECTER. How far did you proceed down Houston Street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am sure it wasn't more than 200 feet at the most. It
was a real short block.

Mr. SPECTER. What street then did you turn onto as you turned off of
Houston Street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. From Houston we turned onto Elm, which was a rather
sharp turn with a downgrade, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that a turn on the left or the right?

Mr. KELLERMAN. To the left, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. I ask that Exhibit 347 be admitted in evidence, may it
please the Commission.

Representative FORD. It will be admitted.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit
No. 348, Mr. Kellerman, and I ask you if you are able at this time to
identify what building is in that picture?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This building right straight ahead in the photo--I
couldn't have told you on the day of the 22nd of November what it was,
but as of now this is the Texas Depository Building.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the building known as the Texas School Book
Depository Building?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir.

(The photograph marked Commission Exhibits Nos. 347 and 348 for
identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark on Exhibit 347--we have 348, we will get 348
back in a moment. I would like to have you mark in the aerial shot the
precise location of that building with the initials "TS."

(Witness marks.)

Mr. SPECTER. For the written part of our record will you describe how
many stories high the Texas School Book Depository building is?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a seven-story building. From here it appears to
be a rather square-type constructed.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. As you were proceeding in a generally northerly
direction on Houston Street, can you describe the layout of the street,
indicating first the approximate width of that street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Houston Street is a rather wide city street similar to
anything we have here in Washington, really, and being in the heart of
the business section, I would say that it was a six-lane street at the
time.

Mr. SPECTER. What was on your right as you proceeded down Houston
Street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The buildings.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about on your left?

Mr. KELLERMAN. On my left it was open.

Mr. SPECTER. As you turned left onto Elm Street, will you describe what
was on your right?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned left onto Elm Street and left this building
that we are speaking of here----

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; then your area became clear.

Mr. SPECTER. On the right?

Mr. KELLERMAN. On the right, sir. This was an open field area with a
hill. Now, there were, if I recall correctly, just at the brink of
the hill, right beyond this building in question, there was a small
white--how can I describe it?

Mr. SPECTER. A little park area?

Mr. KELLERMAN. A little park area; that is right. And beyond it it was
all open.

Mr. SPECTER. What was on your left at about that time as you proceeded
down Elm Street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. As we turned left on Elm Street off Houston,
this, too, was a little plaza area, and kind of a triangular thing
where the street was on the opposite side; this is an apparently
one-way street, and directly to our left as we turned you had to view,
this looked like a little one-story plaza building or structure.

Mr. SPECTER. To complete the scene, as you looked ahead of you down Elm
Street what, if anything, did you see immediately in front of you?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. First thing that I saw was that the road was going
to turn, and then a little further ahead we had a viaduct which we were
going under.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what name the Dallas Texans give to that
viaduct?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I really don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you heard it described since as the triple overpass?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I haven't.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the approximate width of Elm Street in lanes of
travel, if you recall?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It is at least three lanes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And describe the terrain, whether it was smooth, level or
in what way you went as you went down Elm Street.

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we went down Elm Street, there was a smooth road and
the terrain on each side was a grassy plotted area, a very cleared-off
area, visibility tremendous.

Mr. SPECTER. And describe the composure of the crowds at that time.

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned north on to Houston Street, this was
primarily the end of the crowd in Dallas, Tex.; in the downtown
section, there were still a few on the sidewalk until we got to Elm
Street. As we turned in a northerly direction to Elm Street, which
would be on our left, then the crowds just diminished. They were
spotty, standing on the grassy plot. They were not on the side of the
street. In fact, there were just a matter of a handful, that was all,
and we were through it.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what time it was when you got to the
intersection of Houston and Elm on November 22?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not at Houston and Elm; no. No; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the speed of the motorcade, Mr. Kellerman, as you
were proceeding down Main Street at about the time you turned right
onto Houston?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Ten, fifteen, no more; real parade speed.

Mr. SPECTER. How far ahead of you was the lead car at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Again, it was four or five car lengths in front.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how far behind you the President's followup
car was as you turned right onto Houston from Main Street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't, but I am positive it was right on our rear
wheels.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, as you turned left off Houston onto Elm, what is your best
estimate of the speed of the President's automobile at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned onto Elm Street and the crowd, we were
through the section of Dallas; we might have had--the driver picked
it up because we were all through. Purely a guess, we could have been
going at the most 25.

Mr. SPECTER. What would your estimate, your minimum estimate, of the
speed be?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Fifteen.

Mr. SPECTER. As you turned left onto Elm Street, how far were you
behind the lead car at that point?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say the same; three to five car lengths,
but I can, to go a little further, I can see this car ahead of me. He
is not running away from us.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the pilot car; was that car in sight?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; that I didn't see; I didn't see it.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know from your personal observation at the time you
turned left onto Elm Street how far the President's followup car was
behind you at that point?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not from personal observation.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, describe what occurred as you proceeded
down Elm Street after turning off of Houston.

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned off Houston onto Elm and made the short
little dip to the left going down grade, as I said, we were away
from buildings, and were--there was a sign on the side of the road
which I don't recall what it was or what it said, but we no more than
passed that and you are out in the open, and there is a report like a
firecracker, pop. And I turned my head to the right because whatever
this noise was I was sure that it came from the right and perhaps into
the rear, and as I turned my head to the right to view whatever it was
or see whatever it was, I heard a voice from the back seat and I firmly
believe it was the President's, "My God, I am hit," and I turned around
and he has got his hands up here like this.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating right hand up toward his neck?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir. In fact, both hands were up in that
direction.

Senator COOPER. Which side of his neck?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Beg pardon?

Senator COOPER. Which side of his neck?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Both hands were up, sir; this one is like this here and
here we are with the hands----

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the left hand is up above the head.

Mr. KELLERMAN. In the collar section.

Mr. SPECTER. As you are positioning yourself in the witness chair, your
right hand is up with the finger at the ear level as if clutching from
the right of the head; would that be an accurate description of the
position you pictured there?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. Good. There was enough for me to verify that the
man was hit. So, in the same motion I come right back and grabbed the
speaker and said to the driver, "Let's get out of here; we are hit,"
and grabbed the mike and I said, "Lawson, this is Kellerman,"--this is
Lawson, who is in the front car. "We are hit; get us to the hospital
immediately." Now, in the seconds that I talked just now, a flurry of
shells come into the car. I then looked back and this time Mr. Hill,
who was riding on the left front bumper of our followup car, was on the
back trunk of that car; the President was sideways down into the back
seat.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating on his left side.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right; just like I am here.

Mr. SPECTER. You mean, correct, left side?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct; yes, sir. Governor Connally by that time is
lying flat backwards into her lap--Mrs. Connally--and she was lying
flat over him.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was lying flat over him?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mrs. Connally was lying flat over the Governor.

Mr. SPECTER. You say that you turned to your right immediately after
you heard a shot?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the reason for your reacting to your right?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That was the direction that I heard this noise, pop.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have a reaction as to the height from which the
noise came?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; honestly, I do not.

Representative FORD. Was there any reaction that you noticed on the
part of Greer when the noise was noticed by you?

Mr. KELLERMAN. You are referring, Mr. Congressman, to the reaction to
get this car out of there?

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Congressman, I have driven that car many times, and
I never cease to be amazed even to this day with the weight of the
automobile plus the power that is under the hood; we just literally
jumped out of the God-damn road.

Representative FORD. As soon as this noise was heard, or as soon as you
transmitted this message to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As soon as I transmitted to the driver first as I went
to Lawson. I just leaned sideways to him and said, "Let's get out of
here. We are hit."

Representative FORD. That comment was made to Greer; not to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; that is right.

Representative FORD. And the subsequent message was to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. With relationship to that first noise that you have
described, when did you hear the voice?

Mr. KELLERMAN. His voice?

Mr. SPECTER. We will start with his voice.

Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. From the noise of which I was in the process of
turning to determine where it was or what it was, it carried on right
then. Why I am so positive, gentlemen, that it was his voice--there is
only one man in that back seat that was from Boston, and the accents
carried very clearly.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, had you become familiar with the President's voice
prior to that day?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; very much so.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the basis for your becoming familiar with his
voice prior to that day?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I had been with him for 3 years.

Mr. SPECTER. And had you talked with him on a very frequent basis
during the course of that association?

Mr. KELLERMAN. He was a very free man to talk to; yes. He knew most
all the men, most everybody who worked in the White House as well as
everywhere, and he would call you.

Mr. SPECTER. And from your experience would you say that you could
recognize the voice?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much, sir; I would.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, I think you may have answered this, but I want to
pinpoint just when you heard that statement which you have attributed
to President Kennedy in relationship to the sound which you described
as a firecracker.

Mr. KELLERMAN. This noise which I attribute as a firecracker, when this
occurred and I am in the process of determining where it comes because
I am sure it came off my right rear somewhere; the voice broke in right
then.

Mr. SPECTER. At about the same time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did President Kennedy say anything beside, "My God, I
am hit."

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the last words he said, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything at that specific time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, there was an awful lot of confusion in
that back seat. She did a lot of talking which I can't recall all the
phrases.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, pinpoint----

Mr. KELLERMAN. But after the flurry of shots, I recall her saying,
"What are they doing to you?" Now again, of course, my comparison of
the voice of her speech--certainly, I have heard it many times, and in
the car there was conversation she was carrying on through shock, I am
sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, going back to the precise time that you heard the
President say, "My God, I am hit," do you recollect whether she said
anything at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Whether or not you can re-create what she said?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I can recall right then, sir. This statement,
or whatever she said, happened after all the shooting was over.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, you have described hearing a noise which
sounded like a firecracker and you have described turning to your right
and described hearing the President's voice and, again, what was your
next motion, if any, or movement, if any?

Mr. KELLERMAN. After I was sure that his statement was right that he
was hit, turned from the back I come right down----

Mr. SPECTER. You just indicated that you had turned to the left. Had
you turned to the left after hearing his voice?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; certainly.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you see? You have described what you saw in
terms of position of his hands.

Mr. KELLERMAN. That was it.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is when I completely turned to my right and grabbed
for the mike in the same motion, sideways telling the driver, "Let's
get out of here; we are hit."

Mr. SPECTER. Will you give us the best estimate of the lapse of
time from the instant you heard the sound which appeared to you to
be a firecracker until you instructed Mr. Greer in the way you have
described?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. How many seconds?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Three or four.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how long did it take you to relay the instructions
which you have told us about to Special Agent Lawson; what your best
estimate would be?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Instant, in seconds again. Again it is three to five.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, in your prior testimony you described a flurry of
shells into the car. How many shots did you hear after the first noise
which you described as sounding like a firecracker?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, these shells came in all together.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to say how many you heard?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say two, and it was like a double
bang--bang, bang.

Mr. SPECTER. You mean now two shots in addition to the first noise?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir; at least.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the time, in seconds, from
the first noise sounding like a firecracker until the second noise
which you heard?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This was instantaneous.

Mr. SPECTER. No; let me repeat the question so I am sure you understand
it. From the time you first heard the noise coming to your right rear,
which you described as sounding like a firecracker, until you heard the
flurry of shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is about how long it took, sir. As I am viewing,
trying to determine this noise, I turned to my right and I heard the
voice and I came back and I verify it and speak to the driver, grab the
mike, these shots come in.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, you have described it as 3 to 4 seconds from the
time----

Mr. KELLERMAN. No more.

Mr. SPECTER. From the time of the first noise--wait a minute--until you
gave the instruction to Mr. Greer and then as you made the statement
to Special Agent Lawson over the microphone that was an instantaneous
timespan as you have described it.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How soon thereafter did the flurry of shots come?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They came in, Mr. Specter, while I am delivering that
radio message.

Mr. SPECTER. To Mr. Lawson. All right. Was there any timespan which
you could discern between the first and second shots and what you have
described as the flurry?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I will estimate 5 seconds, if that.

Representative FORD. But this flurry took place while you were occupied
with these other activities; is that correct?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir.

Representative FORD. You don't recall precisely a second shot and a
third shot such as you did in the case of the first?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Let me give you an illustration, sir, before I can give
you an answer. You have heard the sound barrier, of a plane breaking
the sound barrier, bang, bang? That is it.

Representative FORD. This is for the second and the third, or the
flurry as you described it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; that is right, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. On your 5-second estimate, was that in reference, Mr.
Kellerman, to the total timespan from the first noise until the flurry
ended?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; that is right.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, when the flurry occurred then, were you
still facing forward talking into the microphone to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Then precisely what was your next movement
after completing the delivery of that message to Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When I completed the delivery of those instructions to
Lawson, I just hung up the receiver and looked back.

Mr. SPECTER. To your right this time--to your left; pardon me.

Mr. KELLERMAN. To my left; that is right. This is when I first viewed
Mr. Hill, who was on the back of the----

Mr. SPECTER. Precisely where was he in that instant?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Lying right across the trunk of the car with Mrs.
Kennedy on the left rear. Mr. Hill's head was right up in back of her.

Mr. SPECTER. When you describe the left rear you mean as the car was
facing?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As the car is traveling, sir; yes, sir. He was lying
across the trunk of this car, feet on this side.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he flat across the trunk of the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Flat; that is right.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the position of Mrs. Kennedy's body at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. She was sitting up in the corner of this back seat, like
this.

Mr. SPECTER. So that she was on the buttocks area of her body at that
time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what movement, if any, did you observe Mrs. Kennedy
make at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I never did see Mrs. Kennedy leave that back seat, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say the back seat, are you referring----

Mr. KELLERMAN. The seat she was sitting on.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you referring to the seat itself of the automobile?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you look next; what did you observe following
that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Then I observed how the President was lying, which
was--he was--flat in the seat in this direction.

Mr. SPECTER. On his left-hand side?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Governor Connally was lying straight on his
back with Mrs. Connally over him about halfway.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Governor Connally say anything up to this point?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Connally say anything up to that point?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. When was it that Mrs. Kennedy made the statement which you
have described, "My God, what are they doing?"

Mr. KELLERMAN. This occurred after the flurry of shots.

Mr. SPECTER. At that time you looked back and saw Special Agent Hill
across the trunk of the car, had your automobile accelerated by that
time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Tremendously so; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, to the best of your ability to recollect, exactly
when did your automobile first accelerate?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Our car accelerated immediately on the time--at the
time--this flurry of shots came into it.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the acceleration----

Mr. KELLERMAN. Between the second and third shot.

Senator COOPER. Might I ask a question there?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Senator COOPER. A few minutes ago you said in response to a question
that when you spoke to the driver the car leaped forward from an
acceleration immediately. Did that acceleration occur before the second
shot was fired?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. Just about the time that it came in.

Senator COOPER. About the time it came in?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Not before?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Senator COOPER. One other question: You said the flurry of shots came
in the car. You were leaning forward talking to the driver after the
first shot. What made you aware of a flurry of shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Senator, between all the matter that was--between all
the matter that was blown off from an injured person, this stuff all
came over.

Senator COOPER. What was that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Body matter; flesh.

Senator COOPER. When you were speaking of a flurry of shots, was
there a longer interval between the first shot and the second shot as
compared to the interval between the second shot and the third shot?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you first notice the substance which you have
described as body matter?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When I got to the hospital, sir, it was all over my coat.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice it flying past you at any time prior to
your arrival at the hospital?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I know there was something in the air.

Mr. SPECTER. When, in relation to the shots, Mr. Kellerman, did you
notice the substance in the air?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine. When I have given the orders to Mr. Lawson, this
is when it all came between the driver and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe what it was in a little more detail as it
appeared to you at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is a rather poor comparison, but let's say you take
a little handful of matter--I am going to use sawdust for want of a
better item--and just throw it.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the sound of the flurry of shots by way
of distinction with the way you have described the sound of the first
shot?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, having heard all types of guns fired, most of
them, rather, if I recall correctly these were two sharp reports, sir.
Again, I am going to refer to it as like a plane going through a sound
barrier; bang, bang.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are referring to the flurry?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. Did it sound differently from the first noise you have
described as being a firecracker?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; definitely; very much so.

Representative FORD. Was there any other noise going on at the time of
the second and third shots different from the noise of the crowd or
otherwise at the time of the first shot?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We had no crowd, sir. There was nothing there.

Representative FORD. So the external noise was identical as far as
the----

Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much.

Representative FORD. First or second or the third shot?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. We are in an open-field area, so to speak, and
everything was just clear.

Representative FORD. So there was no other sound that would have
disturbed your hearing capability from the first through the third shot?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; no other shot.

Representative FORD. Your only problem would be your personal activity
after the first shot.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct.

Representative FORD. Your activity of speaking to Greer and talking to
Lawson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir; yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Was there any crowd reaction?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There was no crowd.

Representative FORD. There were a few stragglers?

Mr. KELLERMAN. A handful, and I didn't view any reaction, sir.

Representative FORD. All right.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, you said earlier that there were at least
two additional shots. Is there any area in your mind or possibility, as
you recollect that situation, that there could have been more than two
shots, or are you able to say with any certainty?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to say that I have, from the firecracker
report and the two other shots that I know, those were three shots.
But, Mr. Specter, if President Kennedy had from all reports four
wounds, Governor Connally three, there have got to be more than three
shots, gentlemen.

Senator COOPER. What is that answer? What did he say?

Mr. SPECTER. Will you repeat that, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. KELLERMAN. President Kennedy had four wounds, two in the head and
shoulder and the neck. Governor Connally, from our reports, had three.
There have got to be more than three shots.

Representative FORD. Is that why you have described----

Mr. KELLERMAN. The flurry.

Representative FORD. The noise as a flurry?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Excuse me, do you have any independent recollection, Mr.
Kellerman, of the number of shots, aside from the inference that you
make as to how many points of wounds there were?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Could you rephrase that, please?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes. You have drawn a conclusion, in effect, by saying
that there were four wounds for the President and three wounds for the
Governor; and from that, you say there must have been more than three
shots in your opinion or your view. But my question is: Do you have any
current recollection of having heard more than three shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No. I don't. I will have to say "No."

Senator COOPER. Has that been your recollection from the very time of
the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; it has been my opinion.

Senator COOPER. Not your opinion, but from the time of the shooting you
think then that you heard only three shots, or did you----

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Or did you ever think that you heard more than three?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I can't say that, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you referred to four wounds, Mr. Kellerman,
realizing, of course, your characterization is only lay opinion.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Very true.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us which wounds you made reference to by
that statement, please?

Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. Can I keep the train going from the time we
got to the hospital?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; do it in your own way just as you please.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine. As we arrived at the hospital I immediately got
out of the car. Our followup car is in back of us, as you will recall.
I yelled to the agents, "Get in"--"Go get us two stretchers on wheels."

In the meantime in a matter of seconds--I don't know how they got out
so fast--I turned right around to the back door and opened it. By this
time Mrs. Connally had raised up, and the Governor is lying in her lap,
face up. His eyes are open and he is looking at me, and I am fairly
sure he is alive. By this time I noticed the two stretchers coming out
of the emergency room, and I said to the Governor, I said, "Governor,
don't worry; everything is going to be all right." And he nodded his
head, which I was fairly convinced that that man was alive.

By this time the stretcher is there. I get inside on one side of him,
and Special Agent Hill on the other. Somebody is holding his feet, and
we remove the Governor and put him on the stretcher and they take him
in.

We then get in and help Mrs. Connally out. Our next move is to get
Mrs. Kennedy off from the seat, which was a little difficult, but
she was removed. Then Mr. Hill removed his coat and laid it over the
President's face and shoulder. He and I among two other people--I
don't know--we lifted up the President and put him on a stretcher and
followed him right into the emergency room.

Gentlemen, this emergency room is a, it looks like a, checkerboard;
it has a walkway down the center and a crossway and there are rooms
on each side. President Kennedy was put into the one on the right,
Governor Connally across on the left. And as we pushed the wheelchair
in--we pushed the stretcher inside, the medical people just seemed to
form right in, right there, and I walked around him and I wanted to
look at this man's face, they had him face up.

Senator COOPER. The President?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The President; I am sorry. I did not see any wounds in
that man's face.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating with your hand at that moment the front part of
his face?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. May I interrupt you just to ask whether you had any
view----

Mr. KELLERMAN. Surely.

Mr. SPECTER. Of the rear part of his head?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the rearmost or uppermost portion of President
Kennedy's head which you could observe at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It was the hairline to the ear, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Proceed.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Having all the medical people in there, my business is
left in their hands. So I left. Mrs. Kennedy, incidentally, was still
in there.

Mr. SPECTER. In where, sir?

Mr. KELLERMAN. In the emergency room with him. Which after a few
minutes they convinced her to leave, and she sat outside the room while
they were working over the President. I walked into this center area
of this emergency room--and I am looking for a telephone--which there
is a little doctor's office and I walked inside, and I am alone at
that time, except one medic who was in there. There are two phones and
I said, "Can I use either one of these phones to get outside?" and he
said, "Yes; just pick one up."

By this time Mr. Lawson enters and also Mr. Hill. I asked Mr. Lawson
for the telephone number of the Dallas White House switchboard.
He immediately has it and I said to Mr. Hill, "Will you dial it,
please?" By that time a medic comes into the room from President
Kennedy's section and he asks if anybody knows the blood type of the
President--President Kennedy. We all carry it. I produce mine, and that
is what I believe they used; I am not sure. By this time the connection
is made with the White House operator in Dallas, and I took the phone,
identified myself, and I said, "Give me Washington. Please don't pull
this line; let's leave it open."

I got the Washington operator and I said, identified myself, and I
said, "Give me Mr. Behn."

Mr. Behn was in the office at the time, and I said--his name is Gerald
Behn--and I said, "Gerry, we have had an incident here in Dallas. The
President, the Governor have been shot. We are in the emergency room
of the Parkland Memorial Hospital." I said, "Mark down the time."
Of course, since that time until now we have disagreed on about 3
minutes. I said it is 12:38, which would be 1:38 Dallas time. I am
sorry--Washington time.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that at the time you were talking to Mr. Behn?

Mr. KELLERMAN. To Mr. Behn; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And your version is that it is 12:38 Dallas time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. 12:38. He said it was 12:41; he told me the next day.

Mr. SPECTER. May I interrupt you there for you to tell us how long
after you arrived at the hospital did you make that telephone call to
Mr. Behn, to the best of your recollection?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Three to five minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. The topic we are on now, Mr. Kellerman, is your
own way of relating the description of the wounds, starting with four
wounds on President Kennedy.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right; OK.

Mr. SPECTER. Proceed, then.

Mr. KELLERMAN. I can eclipse an awful lot here and get into the morgue
here in Bethesda, because that is where I looked him over.

Mr. SPECTER. I will come back and pick up some of the other detail.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine.

Mr. SPECTER. But for the sequence at the moment, as it relates to your
conclusions on the shots which you have already testified about----

Mr. KELLERMAN. OK.

Mr. SPECTER. I would like to develop your understanding and your
observations of the four wounds on President Kennedy.

Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. This all transpired in the morgue of the Naval
Hospital in Bethesda, sir. He had a large wound this size.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a circle with your finger of the diameter of 5
inches; would that be approximately correct?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, circular; yes, on this part of the head.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the rear portion of the head.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. More to the right side of the head?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. This was removed.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say, "This was removed," what do you mean by this?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The skull part was removed.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Representative FORD. Above the ear and back?

Mr. KELLERMAN. To the left of the ear, sir, and a little high; yes.
About right in here.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "removed," by that do you mean that it was
absent when you saw him, or taken off by the doctor?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It was absent when I saw him.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine. Proceed.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Entry into this man's head was right below that wound,
right here.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the bottom of the hairline immediately to the
right of the ear about the lower third of the ear?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right. But it was in the hairline, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. In his hairline?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Near the end of his hairline?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the size of that aperture?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The little finger.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the diameter of the little finger.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was the position of that opening with respect to
the portion of the skull which you have described as being removed or
absent?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, I am going to have to describe it similar to this.
Let's say part of your skull is removed here; this is below.

Mr. SPECTER. You have described a distance of approximately an inch and
a half, 2 inches, below.

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct; about that, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. What other wounds, if any, did you notice on
the President?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The other wound that I noticed was on his shoulder.

Mr. SPECTER. Which shoulder.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right shoulder.

Mr. SPECTER. And was it--what was its general position with respect to
the breadth of the back?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right straight.

Mr. SPECTER. No. Upper shoulder, lower shoulder; how far below the
lower neckline would you say?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The upper neckline, sir, in that large muscle between
the shoulder and the neck, just below it.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the size of that opening?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Again about the size of a little finger.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described three wounds which you have
observed?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is three. The fourth one I will have to collaborate
with--the medical people in Dallas said that he had entry in the throat
or an exit.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you are indicating a part on the throat right
underneath your tie as you sit there, the knot of your tie.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This comes from a report from Dr. Kemp Clark.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to Dr. Clark personally?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not. This is a written report.

Mr. SPECTER. This is a written report which you have read?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; that is right.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge of that wound on the front side
aside from the written report of Dr. Kemp Clark?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Except that in the morgue it was very visible that they
had incisioned him here to insert the tracheotomy that they performed
on him.

Mr. SPECTER. So with the operative procedures to perform a tracheotomy,
was there anything, in your view, left of the original entry?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Entry or exit that you have described.

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All you could see at that point was the operative
procedure, the cutting of the surgeon's blade in Dallas?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Senator COOPER. You are saying this, then, that you did not see,
yourself, at any time the mark of any wound in his neck front?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When we took him into the hospital in Dallas; that is
right.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; when we took him in the hospital in
Dallas, I did not.

Senator COOPER. Did you ever see it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Only after he was opened up in the morgue; yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. You saw some indication or some mark of a wound in the
front of his neck?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Senator, from the report of the doctor who worked on him
in Dallas, that he enlarged the incision here in his throat to perform
that tracheotomy, and I believe in his own statement that that wound
was there prior to this incision.

Senator COOPER. I know, but I am asking----

Mr. KELLERMAN. I didn't see it, sir.

Senator COOPER. What you saw yourself?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I didn't.

Representative FORD. Was that because Hill had thrown his coat over the
President, or just didn't see the skin or the body at the time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. When I--that coat was thrown over, sir, to
eliminate any gruesome pictures.

Representative FORD. How far over that body? Did it go over the head
only or down the chest?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; the whole coat went all the way down to the
waistline, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You saw the President's face, though, at a later time as
you have described?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, thank you. This I had lost track of, to help you
out, Mr. Congressman. While he lay on the stretcher in that emergency
room his collar and everything is up and I saw nothing in his face to
indicate an injury, whether the shot had come through or not. He was
clear.

Representative FORD. But while he was on the stretcher in the emergency
room you saw his face?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Representative FORD. But he had his tie and his collar still----

Mr. KELLERMAN. Still on.

Representative FORD. Still on?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. You never saw his neck?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Representative FORD. At that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. At that time, I did not observe him.

Representative FORD. The only time you saw him was later at the morgue?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any blood on the portion of his body in
the neck area or anyplace in the front of his body?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't recall any.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any hole in the clothing of the President
on the front part, in the shirt or tie area?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. From your observation of the wound which you observed in
the morgue which you have described as a tracheotomy, would that have
been above or below the shirtline when the President was clothed?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It would have been below the shirtline, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described all of the wounds of the President
to which you have referred?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the three wounds which I believe you
said Governor Connally sustained?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am going to refer to the medical report on Governor
Connally, wherein they said one wound was in his right back----

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the upper shoulder area?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. One went through his wrist.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right wrist.

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am using the numbers, and he was--a missile went into
his thigh somewhere.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Governor Connally's wounds
aside from what you read in the medical report?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; not personally.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any independent knowledge of which wrist and
which thigh, aside from what you read in the medical reports themselves?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; I do, I talked to the Governor several times
later, and it is the right wrist, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. It is the right wrist?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And which thigh?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It would be the left one.

Representative FORD. Is this a good point for a recess?

Mr. SPECTER. This is fine.

Representative FORD. We will take a 5-minute break.

(Short recess.)

Representative FORD. The Commission will resume, and will you proceed,
Mr. Specter, please?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes sir. One of your last answers was that the position
of the wounds on Governor Connally was ascertained from a conversation
between you and Governor Connally, as well as from the medical reports
themselves. Is that correct?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it is really not.

Mr. SPECTER. Then tell us what your basis is for your testimony on
Governor Connally's wounds.

Mr. KELLERMAN. I have never conversed with the Governor as to his other
wounds outside of his wrist. Your medical report on Governor Connally
which indicate the shoulder wound, wrist, and in the thigh.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you have occasion to talk to him about his wrist
wound?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Over the holidays in Texas, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. The Christmas holidays?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now told us everything you know, either from
conversations or reports, about the wounds of Governor Connally?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Were you able to observe at the time of the
shooting and immediately thereafter, as Governor Connally went into the
hospital, any of his specific wounds?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Only of the--I am presuming now of the hand because,
when he was lying, he had it across his stomach here, and it was rather
bloody.

Mr. SPECTER. And was it the hand that was bloody, the stomach, or both?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I would say so right now; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Which?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The hand.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the stomach bloody at all?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. Kellerman, on the total
number of wounds in relationship to your view that there were more than
three shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, let's consider the vehicle.

Mr. SPECTER. Fine. What about the vehicle would you consider relevant
in this regard?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The windshield itself, which I observed a day or two
after the funeral here, had been hit by a piece of this missile or
missiles, whatever it is, shell.

Mr. SPECTER. While you are referring to the windshield, permit me to
hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit 349 and ask if you can
tell us what that photograph depicts?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This photograph is the windshield of the Presidential
special automobile that we used in Dallas on November 22. And it
depicts a hit by some instrument on the metal railing that covers the
windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. In what position is the hit on that metal railing?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Directly to the right of the mirror.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that on the top of the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is on the top of the windshield. I am sorry; this
is not the windshield itself; this is the top of the vehicle. This is
the framework.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you draw a red arrow with the pen that you have to
the mark which you have just described?

(Mr. Kellerman marked the photograph.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, when did you first observe that indentation?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This was observed a day or two after the funeral, which
funeral was the 25th of November; this would be upward of the 27th.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was the automobile at the time you observed that
indentation?

Mr. KELLERMAN. At the White House garage, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the windshield in the automobile at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it was in the automobile.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe or notice that indentation in the
windshield when you were in Dallas after the shooting occurred?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe or notice that indentation before the
shooting occurred?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state positively whether or not that
indentation was present before the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. So that you observed it on the first occasion when you
saw the car in the White House garage on or about November 27; is that
correct?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. The indentation could conceivably have been present before
the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It could have; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. But you didn't observe it before the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you not observe it in Dallas after the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the
windshield area after the assassination in Dallas?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the
windshield at any time after the assassination until you saw the car in
the garage on or about November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe for the record where that indentation
occurs or is placed?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This indentation is placed on the metal-bar framework
which is across the top of the windshield. The indentation is directly
to the right of the mirror holder.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that on the inside or the outside of the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is on the inside of the car.

Representative FORD. What prompted you to make that investigation on or
about November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. First, Mr. Congressman, I wanted to look this car over
for--let me go back a little bit. When this car was checked over that
night for its return to Washington, I was informed the following day
of the pieces of these missiles that were found in the front seat, and
I believe aside from the skull, that was in the rear seat, I couldn't
conceive even from elevation how this shot hit President Kennedy like
it did. I wanted to view this vehicle, whether this was a slant blow
off the car, whether it hit the car first and then hit him, or what
other marks are on this vehicle, and that is what prompted me to go
around and check it over myself.

Representative FORD. Had anybody told you of this indentation prior to
your own personal investigation?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not of the windshield; no, sir.

Representative FORD. You were the first one to find this indentation?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe I am the first one who noticed this thing up
on the bar.

Representative FORD. That is what I meant.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. You are the first one to notice this particular
indentation?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I believe I am, sir.

Representative FORD. All right.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to examine the windshield or the
framework closely before the assassination, either in Dallas or in
Washington?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I honestly didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, I move for the admission to evidence of
Exhibit No. 349.

Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 349
for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now I hand to Mr. Kellerman, through the Chairman,
Commission Exhibit No. 350, and ask you to describe what this picture
represents?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This picture represents the windshield of the
President's special automobile as we are looking into it. This is an
outside photo. My reason for this is that on inspection there is a--the
windshield has been struck by an instrument and it has been cracked.
This crack is opposite the mirror facing the driver would be toward the
driver, to the right of the mirror, and----

Mr. SPECTER. The photograph, Exhibit 350, is from the outside of the
car front looking toward the car; correct?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What mark, if any, appears in the photograph on the
windshield itself?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There is the cracked windshield located to the right of
the mirror as you look into the automobile.

Mr. SPECTER. That would be on the driver's side, as you previously
stated?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; on the driver's side of the vehicle.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, is this picture an accurate representation of the
appearance of the windshield at some time when you observed the
windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This windshield I observed on this same day.

Mr. SPECTER. On or about November 27, 1963?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that picture accurately represent what the windshield
looked like on that day when you observed it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any crack in the windshield as
the President's automobile was being driven from the point of
assassination to the hospital?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe it at any time prior to the time you saw
the automobile in the White House garage on or before November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did not, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to examine closely the
windshield after the time of the shooting up until the time you saw it
in the White House garage?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, at the time of your examination of the windshield in
the White House garage, did you feel the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. On the day that I visited the White House garage and
checked this car over for my own personal reasons, and this windshield
crack was pointed out to me, I did----

Mr. SPECTER. When you say it was pointed out to you, by whom?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There were other people in the garage, Mr. Specter, like
Mr. Kinney, I believe was there at the time, Special Agent Henry Rybka
was the other person.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it sufficiently prominent without having to have it
pointed out specially?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, yes; very much. And I felt this windshield both
inwardly and outwardly to determine first if there was something that
was struck from the back of us or--and I was satisfied that it was.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say struck from in back of you, do you mean on
the inside or outside of the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Inside, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Inside of the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the outside of the
windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did on that day; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you feel, if anything?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not a thing; it was real smooth.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to feel the inside of the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did.

Mr. SPECTER. How did that feel to you?

Mr. KELLERMAN. My comparison was that the broken glass, broken
windshield, there was enough little roughness in there from the cracks
and split that I was positive, or it was my belief, that whatever hit
it came into the inside of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. I move for the admission into evidence of Exhibit No. 350.

Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.

(The document referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibit No. 350
for identification, was received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. I now call the attention of the Commission to Exhibit
No. 351, which is the windshield itself which, as the Commission may
observe, is present in the hearing room. Now, with reference to Exhibit
No. 351, which is a marking placed over a glass object, Mr. Kellerman,
can you describe for the Commission what that is?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; this windshield, which has since been removed from
the vehicle, at the time I first viewed it, this area marked in here
was all that was cracked. These are later splints.

Mr. SPECTER. Before you proceed, Mr. Kellerman, do you have knowledge
as to the general removal procedure during which this windshield was
taken from the President's car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe I do not. However, I believe Mr. Greer would
be able to identify it better than I, on the removal side.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe the condition of the windshield in its
present state as we are viewing it here this morning?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The windshield this morning has--has been hit by some
object with sufficient force----

Mr. SPECTER. Perhaps we ought to start with the point of impact, Mr.
Kellerman. First, are you able to positively identify this as the
windshield from the President's automobile?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; I would say it was, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Is this the same windshield as depicted in Exhibits 349
and 350?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, starting with the principal point of
impact, where does that exist on this windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The principal point of impact is located to the left of
the mirror, to the right above the driver's head, and to the right of
his, I am going to say, view line.

Mr. SPECTER. As we view the windshield at this time, state whether or
not there are spidering lines which have emanated from that point which
you have described as the principal point of impact?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The spidering lines which extend in three different
directions--you are speaking of the large ones or the others?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, I want to put on this record all of the spidering
lines which exist here.

Mr. KELLERMAN. OK; the spidering lines which are in this encircled area
reflect, in my opinion, that when the instrument hit this glass it
shattered in half a dozen different ways.

Mr. SPECTER. Well now, with respect to the cracks themselves, is there
a crack which goes in a generally upwardly direction slanting off in
the general direction of the driver?

Mr. KELLERMAN. In the center of this, the impact of the center of this
scratch, one goes directly to the top of the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. On that line itself, is there a further splintering off of
that line at another point?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It then continues on a small leg, a straight leg, about
3 inches from the original direction.

Mr. SPECTER. And is there a change of direction at that point, or a
bifurcation, dividing it into two parts?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, you have described in a generally upwardly direction
of about 3 inches?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And is there not a crack which then extends all the way to
the top of the windshield moving, in the direction of the left side of
the windshield from the driver facing it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right. There is a complete crack from this
so-called cutoff to the top right of the windshield right above the
view line of the driver.

Mr. SPECTER. Taking that from a compass reading, would that be in a
generally northeasterly direction?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; northeasterly.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. From a point 3 inches from the center crack,
which we described as the principal point of impact, then, does there
form a point of crack in a V-direction with the line you have already
described?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; there does. There is a small splint, about 2
inches, that heads directly north off from this splinter that goes in a
northeasterly direction.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, moving in a clockwise direction.

Mr. KELLERMAN. In a clockwise direction.

Mr. SPECTER. What crack do you observe, if any?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I next observe on the eastward side of this center crack
a splint of about 3 inches long, which then makes a sharp veer to the
southeast to the bottom of the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving further in a clockwise direction, what crack
do you next observe emanating from the central point of impact?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The next crack from the central point of impact extends
down about 3 inches, to the southeast, and then veers to a sharp
southeast to the bottom of the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving further in a clockwise direction.

Mr. KELLERMAN. From this point----

Mr. SPECTER. Let's continue to move from the central point of impact
to finish up what divergent cracks there are from the central point of
impact. Is there one other?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There is one other point left. This is completely in a
westerly direction about 3 inches from the center of impact, which then
veers to the northwest to the top of the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there other cracks in the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There is one other splint, which is from the
southeasterly leg----

Mr. SPECTER. That would be southwesterly leg.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Southwesterly leg--I am sorry--that drops to within an
inch of the bottom of the windshield, whereby another splint travels in
a northwesterly direction to about halfway of the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described all of the visible cracks in the
windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That has completed it, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. As you have viewed this windshield, have you looked at it
from the outside looking in or the inside looking out?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I have been looking from the outside looking in.

Mr. SPECTER. Where you would have been if you had been, say, on
the front hood of the car when the windshield was in place on the
automobile?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I would have been--pardon?

Mr. SPECTER. On the hood of the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. On the hood of the car this would have been facing me as
it is sitting here today.

Mr. SPECTER. Have there been any measures taken to protect the outer
edges of this windshield in its position here in the hearing room?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. A form of protective tape has been placed around
the entire windshield to protect it, to keep it intact.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any differences in the cracks on the windshield
today as it sits in our hearing room from its condition when you
observed it on or about November 27, 1963?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. From the point of impact the four cracks that
looked in the four directions were the only ones on this windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any marking in color or otherwise on that piece
of the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There has been a yellow crayon marking the circumference
of these four cracks, apparently before the windshield was removed from
the automobile.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that yellow or red?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It is red.

Mr. SPECTER. Were the cracks present within the circumference of that
marking present at the time you observed the windshield on or about
November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Were any of the other marks present when you observed the
windshield on or about November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you at this time feel the outside of the windshield
and describe what, if anything, you feel at the point of impact?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The outside markings from the point of impact, the
extended lines----

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman. I would like for you at this time to
actually touch the outside and tell me, first of all, if it is the same
or if it differs in any way from the sense of feel which you noted when
you touched it on or about November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As I touch the outside on the impact, it would be the
same as I noticed on the 27th of November.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you notice, if anything?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It is a smooth surface without any----

Mr. SPECTER. Without any--finish your answer.

Mr. KELLERMAN. On the inside.

Mr. SPECTER. No; before. It is a smooth surface without any what?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Without any crack lines.

Mr. SPECTER. On the outside?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That can be felt.

Mr. SPECTER. On the outside?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; on the outside of the windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Feel the inside and tell us, first of all, whether it is
the same or different from the way you touched it on November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. On November 27, when I felt the inside of this impact
area, I was convinced that I could--that I felt an opening in one of
these lines, which was indicative to me that the blow was struck from
the inside of the car on this windshield.

Mr. SPECTER. Does it feel the same to you today as it did on or about
November 27?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As a matter of fact, it feels rather smooth today.

Mr. SPECTER. It feels somewhat differently today than it felt before?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; it does.

Representative FORD. Could we ask when the red circle was placed on the
windshield, if you know?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I do not know.

Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the shattering which existed on or about
November 27, which is within the red circle, could that condition have
existed on November 22 after the assassination?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Absolutely not. I don't think so.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the reason for your expressing your thought that
it could not have existed?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This automobile is never out of sight of any agent, or
even a police officer, before it is used--used or afterward. Let me
clarify that. The agent that accompanied these cars to Dallas was with
the vehicles from the time they left Washington aboard this plane.
One of his many duties outside of keeping it, having this car run
perfectly, is that all the equipment is in perfect condition.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, what you are saying, then, is there had
been no crack in the windshield prior to the time of the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. My next question is: Did you observe any crack in the
windshield after the shooting on November 22?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to look for or examine for any
crack in the windshield after the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I had no occasion whatsoever.

Mr. SPECTER. If the crack in the windshield had been as prominent as it
was on or about November 27, 1963, would you have observed it after the
shooting on November 22?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; I don't think I would have.

Senator COOPER. Is it correct then to say that you didn't find any
occasion to examine the windshield after you heard the shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, I did not have the opportunity.

Mr. SPECTER. And after the President was removed from the automobile,
did you ever go back and examine the car, including the windshield?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not in Dallas; no, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. To be absolutely certain our record is straight on this
point, when you observed this windshield on or about November 27, 1963,
was the windshield in or out of the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It was in the car. This was the same day they were going
to remove it.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they remove it later that day, to your knowledge?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; they did, and the mechanics were there.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you there at the time this was removed?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. But the mechanics had arrived preparatory to removing it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, we intended to describe the windshield
in detail prior to your mentioning it, but to go back to your train
of thought, you had brought up the windshield in response to my
question about whether you had told us everything that you had in mind
when you expressed the view that there were more than three shots.
Now, remaining on the subject of the windshield, what fact about the
windshield was important in your mind when you expressed the view that
there must have been more than three shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I may be a little--I am not ahead of myself in your
investigation of this case, but I think with the evidence that you
all have on the numbers, on the pieces of evidence that were found in
the car, plus the fact that you have a missile that was received from
Dallas, from one of the stretchers, plus the fact of the missile that,
to my knowledge, hasn't been removed from Governor Connally--it may
have, I don't know--count up to more than three to me, gentlemen.

Mr. SPECTER. All right; fine. But focusing just a moment on the
windshield in and of itself, is there any physical factor or
characteristic of the windshield other than those already described for
the record which has any bearing on your conclusion about the number of
shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it does not.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, moving on to the other pieces of evidence which you
have just described, you referred to pieces of evidence in the car.
What did you mean when you made that reference, sir?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I have--I was told, although this is a hearsay thing----

Mr. SPECTER. For these purposes, please tell us whatever you are
referring to, whatever its source, hearsay or not.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Okay; fine. That when they examined that vehicle that
night, when it was brought back to Washington, D.C., two pieces of a
bullet or bullets were found on the passenger side on the floor of the
front seat.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe those?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that, or what report?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Boring--Floyd Boring.

Mr. SPECTER. Who is Mr. Boring?

Mr. KELLERMAN. He is also an assistant special agent in charge.

Mr. SPECTER. Is he currently with the Secret Service?

Mr. KELLERMAN. He is currently with the Secret Service at the White
House; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Were those two pieces of bullet described with more
particularity than you have mentioned?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; they were not.

Mr. SPECTER. Were they described as fragments of bullets as
distinguished from whole bullets?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. But do you have any information as to the size of the
fragments?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other pieces of evidence in the car that you
were referring to there?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The only other piece of evidence in the car was
President Kennedy's skull.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Do you know what was done with those fragments
that Mr. Boring told you about?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not those were turned over to the
FBI?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I would say they were probably turned over to the FBI;
yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And why would you say they probably were?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Because they were assigned to going over the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it their procedure to turn over whatever they found to
the FBI?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything special in the nature of the skull
which you just mentioned which would have any bearing on the number of
shots fired in this assassination?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, but it would be one shell, one shot.

Mr. SPECTER. That would be your conclusion?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That would be my conclusion.

Mr. SPECTER. That it would take one shot to have separated that portion
of skull?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You mentioned a missile found on a stretcher in Dallas.
Will you elaborate on what you were referring to there?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This was given, I believe, in your statements there, to
a Special Agent Johnsen. I haven't seen this missile.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you referring there to the missile which was found on
the stretcher and to the sequence of events from which it was traced
back to one of the two victims of this shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any more knowledge about that other than that
which you have already mentioned?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. You mentioned a missile which was not removed from
Governor Connally. Specifically, what did you refer to there?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There was in the early--this was on the day in Parkland
Memorial Hospital, and this information comes from Dr. George Burkley,
the President's physician, when, I believe, I asked him the condition
of Governor Connally, and have they removed the bullet from him.

Mr. SPECTER. What did Dr. Burkley say?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Dr. Burkley said that to his knowledge he still has the
bullet in him.

Mr. SPECTER. And at what time on November 22 was that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This was after we got into the hospital after the
shooting, sir, between then and 2 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER. So that the operation on Governor Connally had not been
completed at that point?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any additional knowledge about any bullet in
Governor Connally?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you now told us about all of the facts which you took
into account in your conclusion that there were more than three shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add, Mr. Kellerman, by way of
explanation or elaboration, to tell us which might be helpful with
respect to your conclusion based on all of these items which you have
described to us that there were more than three shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Gentlemen, I think if you would view the films yourself
you may come up with a little different answer.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, have you viewed the films, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I have; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there something special in your viewing of the films
which led you to believe that there were more than three shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it doesn't point out more than three shots, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Which films are you referring to?

Mr. KELLERMAN. These are the colored ones that were taken on the right
side.

Mr. SPECTER. Taken by Mr. Abraham Zapruder?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. You are not familiar with the photographer?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I am not.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, can you describe the view you say is from the
right-hand side of the automobile?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. So that would be on the side of the road where the Texas
School Book Depository Building was?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And approximately where did those pictures begin and end?

Mr. KELLERMAN. These pictures began as we turned off Houston Street
onto Elm.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did they end?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we are, just before we are, going into the viaduct.

Mr. SPECTER. Were those black and white or in color?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; they were colored.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you seen any other films of the assassination?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; I saw a black-and-white, but I didn't--I saw a
black-and-white film. However, I didn't get enough out of it there
to----

Mr. SPECTER. Before proceeding any further, I would like to move for
the introduction in evidence of Exhibit 351.

Representative FORD. It is approved.

(The windshield referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 351 for
identification and was received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything at all to add which you think might
be helpful, Mr. Kellerman, on the question of how many shots were
fired, or have you told us everything you have in mind on that question?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe I have, Mr. Specter.

Senator COOPER. What was the name of the special agent driving the
car--the President's car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. William Greer.

Senator COOPER. He was the one to whom you spoke when you heard the
report?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Has he ever expressed any opinion to you as to the
number of shots that were fired?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. I think we are all of the opinion, Senator,
that we know of three.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, referring to Commission Exhibit No. 347,
will you pinpoint as precisely as you can on that aerial shot, aerial
picture, where the President's car was at the time of the first shot?
And mark that, if you would, please, with an "X" in red pencil.

Mr. KELLERMAN. My guess would be right in here, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you mark as closely as you can where the
President's car was at the time of the second shot and mark that with a
"Y" in red.

(Mr. Kellerman marking the picture.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have marked the cars being in approximately the
middle of the road; is that accurate, as you recollect it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is the general procedure, Mr. Specter; they were
traveling in the center of the road.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the time of the third shot, would
your marking be any different from the "Y" position?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; it would not.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, from the time of the shooting until the time the
automobile arrived at Parkland Hospital, did anyone in the President's
car say anything that you have not already told us about?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, there is a report from the Federal Bureau
of Investigation designated "Bureau File No. 105"--I believe there is
an "S", although it is somewhat illegible on my copy--"S2555, report
of Special Agent Robert P. Gemberling," dated December 10, 1963, which
refers to an interview of you by Special Agent Francis X. O'Neill, Jr.,
and James W. Sibert, in which the following is set forth:

"He"--and this obviously refers to you--"advised that he heard a shot
and immediately turned around looking past Governor Connally who was
seated directly in back of him, to the President. He observed the
President slumped forward and heard him say 'get me to a hospital.'
Mr. Kellerman then heard Mrs. Kennedy say, 'Oh, no,' as the President
leaned toward her." That is the end of the quotation. My question is:
Did you hear him; did you hear President Kennedy say, "Get me to a
hospital"?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear Mrs. Kennedy say, "Oh, no"?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any knowledge or explanation as to why you
would have been so quoted in the report of the FBI?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When these two gentlemen talked to me, I don't know
where they got those quotes, because the only two things that I told
them, they were interested in what I heard from the people in the back
seat, and one said "my God, I have been hit," which was President
Kennedy, and Mrs. Kennedy said, "What are they doing to you?"

Mr. SPECTER. You were interviewed, however, by Mr. O'Neill and Mr.
Sibert on November 22, 1963?

Mr. KELLERMAN. November what?

Mr. SPECTER. November 22.

Mr. KELLERMAN. No. November 22 is when they were in the morgue with me.
They interviewed me in the office that--it was around the 27th. This
was after the funeral.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they have any conversation with you about these events
in the morgue?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not that I recall, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a discussion with either of those gentlemen
about anything while you were at the morgue on November 22?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The only thing I can recall discussionwise--I just
forget which one it was, one of the two--this was before we even knew
that a shell had been found from the hole in the President's shoulder.
We couldn't determine what happened to it. They couldn't find it in the
morgue; they couldn't find any leeway as to whatever happened to the
shell when it hit the President's shoulder; where did it go. So our
contention was that while he was on the stretcher in Dallas, and the
neurosurgeon was working over him no doubt with pressure on the heart,
this thing worked itself out.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "our contention," what do you mean by that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. One of these agents--I forget which one it was; it could
have been Sibert or O'Neill, but I am not sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Did what?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We--our discussion or my discussion.

Mr. SPECTER. You had a discussion and when you say "our contention" by
that do you mean that was the conclusion you came to?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Conclusion--that is right, sir--as to where this bullet
went into the shoulder and where did it go.

Mr. SPECTER. While you are on that subject, was there any conversation
at the time of the autopsy on that matter itself?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much so.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you relate to the Commission the nature of that
conversation and the parties to it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There were three gentlemen who were performing this
autopsy. A Colonel Finck--during the examination of the President,
from the hole that was in his shoulder, and with a probe, and we were
standing right alongside of him, he is probing inside the shoulder with
his instrument and I said, "Colonel, where did it go?" He said, "There
are no lanes for an outlet of this entry in this man's shoulder."

Mr. SPECTER. Did you say anything in response to that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I said, "Colonel, would it have been possible that while
he was on the stretcher in Dallas that it works itself out?" And he
said, "Yes."

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any additional conversation between you and
Colonel Finck at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not on that point; no, sir; not on that point.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any conversation of any sort between you and
Colonel Finck which would be helpful to us here?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Well, from Humes, who was the other gentleman out there,
from the entry of the skull, from this hole here.

Mr. SPECTER. You are now referring to the hole which you describe being
below the missing part of the skull?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it was confirmed that the entry of the shell
here went right through the top and removed that piece of the skull.

Mr. SPECTER. And who confirmed that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. One of the three gentlemen; I don't recall.

Mr. SPECTER. You don't recall which one, but it was one of the three
doctors doing the autopsy?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. So you are saying it confirmed that the hole that was
below the piece of skull that was removed, was the point of entry of
the one bullet which then passed up through the head and took off the
skull?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Then that was all done by one bullet, based on what you
are telling us at this moment?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. From the confirmation that one of the three doctors made?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, was there any other conversation between you and
Colonel Finck or Commander Humes----

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. At that time, which was important on the subject we are
discussing?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Actually, from all the X-rays that were taken, and we
viewed them all together; when I say "we," I am saying the medical
people who were in the morgue at the time, the two Bureau agents,
myself, and also Mr. Greer, who was in there with me, naturally, they
were looking for pieces of fragmentation of this bullet. There was
none; only one piece to my knowledge. That was removed inside above the
eye, the right eye.

Mr. SPECTER. You have now told us all about the conversations between
you and Colonel Finck and Commander Humes and anyone else at the
autopsy which are important on the positions of the hole and the wounds
in the head?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any other conversation with either Special
Agent O'Neill or Special Agent Sibert of the FBI on November 22, 1963,
other than your conversations about the wounds on President Kennedy?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, while we are discussing this in
relationship to your conversations with Special Agents O'Neill and
Sibert, were there any other comments made by anybody else present
at the autopsy about the path of the bullet into Mr. Kennedy's back,
relating to whether there was any point of exit or anything of that
sort?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Colonel Finck did all the talking, sir. He was the only
one.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you told us everything Colonel Finck said about
that subject?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much so; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. So that there is nothing that was said on that subject
other than what you have already told us about?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; that is right.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, I have read to you a part of what Special
Agents O'Neill and Sibert have attributed to you in an interview which
they have written about on November 22, 1963. Referring to that in
the portion which I have read to you and which I will reread, I want
you to direct your attention to the issue about which way you turned.
The report states, "He advised he heard a shot and immediately turned
around looking past Governor Connally who was seated directly in back
of him to the President."

Now, did that describe a turn to the right or to the left? This is a
difficult question. Let me interject one thing. We are presupposing
here, based on your testimony, that you did not discuss with Special
Agents O'Neill or Sibert these specific events on November 22, to the
best of your recollection as we sit here today.

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Mr. SPECTER. So that the question really goes to a situation where
perhaps they have an inaccurate day or your recollection is inaccurate
as to some of the things you might have told them. So, my prefatory
question would be whether that is an accurate statement and is
something you told them at some time.

Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't believe I did. I think I will stand on my
original statement.

Representative FORD. The original statement you made here today?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; very much.

Mr. SPECTER. So that the statement I just read to you, so far as your
best----

Mr. KELLERMAN. I can't----

Mr. SPECTER. So far as your best testimony is at this time, it was
simply not made by you on November 22?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, now. Was that statement I just read to you, the
short one about your turn, to the best of your recollection at this
moment, did you ever make that statement to Special Agents O'Neill
and/or Sibert?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, everybody I have talked to I have always
turned to the right when I first heard the noise. I turned to my left
to view the people in my back seat because it is a more comfortable
position. So I don't think the turning is correct, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you say the report is incorrect?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right.

Representative FORD. May I ask--you have viewed these colored motion
pictures which were taken during the assassination. Have you looked at
those to see what your own actions were during this period of time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Do they coincide with what you have testified to
here today?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They certainly do.

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No.
352, and ask you if you can tell us what that picture represents?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; this was the rear seat of the President's car,
sir, after all the occupants were removed.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did the rear seat of the President's car look
like the picture 352?

Mr. KELLERMAN. After all the occupants were removed on the 22d of
November.

Mr. SPECTER. When the car was parked at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't know where this picture was taken, sir. This
could have been taken in the White House garage.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes; but aside from where the picture was taken, is that
the way the car looked at the time it was at Parkland Hospital after
President Kennedy and Governor Connally were removed from the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe for the written record very briefly what
this picture shows?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The picture shows the complete rear seat of the
Presidential limousine.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, is on the rear seat?

Mr. KELLERMAN. On the seat part of this car is splattered with blood;
there are a few petals of flowers, and the back seat cushion part is
pretty well bloodied up.

Mr. SPECTER. I move for the introduction in evidence of Commission
Exhibit No. 352.

Representative FORD. So admitted.

(The photograph referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 352 for
identification, and received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you, through the Chairman, Commission Exhibit
No. 353, move its admission into evidence, and ask you to tell us what
this depicts.

Mr. KELLERMAN. This is the same Presidential vehicle after the
occupants have been removed from the rear seat. It shows the--a goodly
amount of blood that had remained on the cushion and back part of the
seat and also little flower petals.

Mr. SPECTER. Is Exhibit No. 353 an accurate representation of the way
the rear seat of the President's automobile looked after----

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. After President Kennedy and Governor Connally were removed
to Parkland Hospital.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. You have described in answers to previous questions what
occurred upon the arrival at Parkland of the President's automobile.
What action, if any, did you take immediately after President Kennedy
and Governor Connally were taken into the hospital?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I believe we had got to the point where I had made
this phone call to Washington to alert these people back here of the
incident.

Mr. SPECTER. And proceeding from that point?

Mr. KELLERMAN. From this point, the agents who were in this followup
car had joined me in the emergency room. They took up security posts
at entrance into the emergency room to keep it clear of all people
except medical people. The only people allowed in there would be
workers. After this was done, Special Agent Kinney came to me and asked
permission to remove the President's car and our followup car to the
airport, to load it aboard this aircraft for shipment to Washington,
and I said, "Yes."

At that time the next move was Special Agent Warren Taylor, who was
assigned to the then Vice President Johnson, came to me and he said,
"Mr. Johnson wants to talk to you." So, I followed him into this room
that they had the Johnson party in. He asked me the condition of
President Kennedy, which I told him that President Kennedy is still in
the emergency room, his condition is serious. He then said, "You let me
know of any developments."

I then returned to the emergency room. By that time another shift of
agents, who were at the Trade Mart on duty for prior to our arrival,
reported into the emergency room. This is what is called as our
afternoon shift, the 4 to 12. Mr. Roberts, whose group was on the
followup car in the motorcade through Dallas, was the 8-to-4 shift.
The 4-to-12 shift then was under the supervision of Mr. Stewart Stout.
I then instructed Mr. Roberts to take his shift, which were the day
people, and join Special Agent Rufus Youngblood and stay with Vice
President Johnson.

Mr. SPECTER. How many agents were they to take with them?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They took the entire followup car, which would mean that
they had Roberts, Ready, Bennett, McIntyre; those four.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know where they went or what specifically they did
by way of establishing security for Vice President Johnson?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I really don't.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your next activity?

Mr. KELLERMAN. My next move, then, my next part in this was--by this
time it was after 1 o'clock--I am trying to pinpoint time--after 1,
because Dr. Burkley said that the President had died; it was after 1
o'clock. By this time other people who were in with Mr. Kennedy, such
as his staff--I am speaking of Mr. O'Donnell, Mr. Powers, I believe
Larry O'Brien--through them, and I believe Mr. Hill, they had obtained
a casket from one of the funeral people in town.

Mr. SPECTER. Where had Mrs. Kennedy been during this time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mrs. Kennedy was right outside the door to the emergency
room.

Mr. SPECTER. How long, if at all, was she inside the emergency room
with President Kennedy?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This I can't truly answer. However, I should say that,
as for the casket being brought into the hospital, another gentleman
came into this little doctor's room, his name I don't recall, but he
represented himself to be from the Health Department or commission,
some form. He said to me, he said, "There has been a homicide here, you
won't be able to remove the body. We will have to take it down there
to the mortuary and have an autopsy." I said, "No, we are not." And he
said, "We have a law here whereby you have to comply with it."

With that Dr. Burkley walked in, and I said, "Doctor, this man is from
some health unit in town. He tells me we can't remove this body." The
Doctor became a little enraged; he said, "We are removing it." He
said, "This is the President of the United States and there should be
some consideration in an event like this." And I told this gentleman,
I said, "You are going to have to come up with something a little
stronger than you to give me the law that this body can't be removed."

So, he frantically called everybody he could think of and he hasn't got
an answer; nobody is home. Shortly he leaves this little room and it
seems like a few minutes he is back and he has another gentleman with
him, and he said, "This is"--the name escapes me--he said, "He is a
judge here in Dallas," and he said, "He will tell you whether you can
remove this body or not." I said, "It doesn't make any difference. We
are going to move it," and I said, "Judge, do you know who I am?"

And he said, "Yes," and I said, "There must be something in your
thinking here that we don't have to go through this agony; the family
doesn't have to go through this. We will take care of the matter when
we get back to Washington." The poor man looked at me and he said, "I
know who you are," and he said, "I can't help you out." I said, "All
right, sir." But then I happened to look to the right and I can see
the casket coming on rollers, and I just left the room and let it out
through the emergency entrance and we got to the ambulance and put it
in, shut the door after Mrs. Kennedy and General McHugh and Clinton
Hill in the rear part of this ambulance.

I am looking around for Mr. Greer and I don't spot him directly because
I want to get out of here in a hurry, and I recognize Agent Berger and
I said, "Berger, you get in the front seat and drive and, Mr. Stout,
you get in the middle and I will set on this side," and as we are
leaving--Mr. Lawson, I should say, was in a police car that led us away
from Parkland Memorial Hospital. As we are leaving a gentleman taps on
the driver's window and they roll it down and he says, "I will meet you
at the mortuary." "Yes, sir." We went to the airport, gentlemen.

Mr. SPECTER. Who said, "Yes, sir"?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I did, sir. We went to the airport. In the meantime, Mr.
Johnson had been taken to the airplane. They had secured the airport;
nobody was there. They had removed seats off the rear part of the plane
so we could put the body and the casket in it. As we got to the airport
the ramp was there; we opened the door, and we moved the casket out and
walked it right up to the plane.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any further difficulty of any sort----

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Imposed by any Texas officials on the removal of the body?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir. Whatever happened to the hearse, I don't know.
I never left the plane.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe----

Mr. KELLERMAN. We left the hospital; we have a time on that; it is 4
minutes after 2. It is about a 10-minute ride to the airplane.

Mr. SPECTER. On the question of timing, pinning down these times as
best we can, how long did it take you to get from the shooting incident
to the time you arrived at Parkland, based on your best estimates?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, it seemed like hours, but we flew there, I
honestly don't know. I can't really tell you.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the best estimate of the speed of your vehicle en
route from the shooting to the hospital?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't know.

Senator COOPER. Let the record show that Congressman Ford has to go to
his official duties in the House and that I, Senator Cooper, am now
acting as Chairman.

(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

Senator COOPER. Go ahead.

Mr. SPECTER. Moving ahead, then, on to the sequences of time as best
you can recollect them, Mr. Kellerman, at what time was it ascertained
that the President had died and what was the basis of the pronouncement
of death.

Mr. KELLERMAN. That was on the death certificate, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you learn at or about 1 o'clock, while you were at
Parkland Hospital, that he had died?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I would think so. However, at that time let me say that
I wasn't watching any clock too closely and this time was given to me
by Dr. Burkley.

Mr. SPECTER. Then you have no independent recollection of time at
Parkland when the death was announced or pronounced?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, then, you have specified the time of departure from
Parkland Hospital and en route back to Love Field at what, sir?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We departed at 4 minutes after 2 from Parkland.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive at the President's plane?

Mr. KELLERMAN. 2:14.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your next activities?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Our next time, we had waited until Judge Sarah Hughes
had arrived for the swearing-in ceremonies.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did the swearing-in ceremonies occur?

Mr. KELLERMAN. 2:37 p.m.

Mr. SPECTER. And what time did the plane depart from Dallas?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We left at 2:48.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present during the swearing-in ceremonies?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. In a general way, tell us who else was present there,
recognizing that you don't know all the people there.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. President Johnson, Mrs. Johnson, Mrs. Kennedy,
Malcolm Kilduff. He was the press secretary for that trip. Congressman
Thornberry, Congressman Thomas, Marie Fehmer, Mrs. Evelyn Lincoln,
Jack Valenti, Bill Moyers, Special Agent Johns. There was another
congressional man--I believe his name was Congressman Roberts--Brooks;
I am sorry; Congressman Brooks. The picture was taken by Capt. Cecil
Stoughton and myself.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did the President's plane arrive back at the
Washington area?

Mr. KELLERMAN. May I look at my notes, sir?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, you may. Identify for us, if you will, what notes you
are referring to.

Mr. KELLERMAN. 5:58 p.m. This is my report.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Kellerman has just referred
to a four-page report dated November 29, 1963, entitled "The
Assassination of President John F. Kennedy on November 22, 1963, at
Dallas, Tex.," which is a copy of a report he made, three of the sheets
being carbon copies, and one being a photostatic reproduction. So that
our record may be complete, let the record show that this is the same
report which Mr. Kellerman submitted to the Secret Service which was,
in turn, submitted by the Secret Service to the Commission, as one of
the statements in Exhibit 12, statement 11, which was furnished by
the Secret Service to the Commission as the report of the U.S. Secret
Service on the assassination of President Kennedy, under the exhibits
section. I will return that to you.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine; thank you.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities; specifically where did you land
in the Washington area?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We landed at Andrews Air Force Base.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities then, immediately after landing
at Andrews?

Mr. KELLERMAN. While en route from Dallas to Washington, D.C., I had
several telephone communications with my special agent in charge,
Gerald Behn, concerning this, transportation for the people aboard
the plane, an ambulance for the body of President Kennedy, and my
instructions. I was instructed to stay with the late President
Kennedy. Aboard this plane were agents of the 4-to-12 shift which, as
I mentioned earlier, was under the supervision of Mr. Stewart Stout;
a conference was held with Mr. Rufus Youngblood, who was in charge of
the Johnson detail at that time. He was informed that he would take
all the agents under Mr. Stout's supervision and they would remain with
them for the remainder of the day. That I would have Special Agents
Hill, Landis, Greer, and O'Leary.

As we arrived at Andrews Air Force Base, arrangements were made prior
to having a lift brought up to the rear end of the plane, whereby all
the agents were requested by Mrs. Kennedy to carry this casket from the
plane to the ambulance. It was put aboard this carrier; from there we
took it from the carrier into the Navy ambulance. Mrs. Kennedy rode in
the back seat, or in the rear part of the ambulance, with Mr. Robert
Kennedy and General McHugh.

In the front seat the ambulance was driven by Special Agent Greer, of
which Agents Landis and myself and Dr. Burkley rode in the front seat
to the U.S. Naval Hospital in Bethesda. At that point Navy officials
there instructed us where to take the ambulance, to what part of the
building, and remove the casket into the morgue facilities.

As we landed in Andrews Air Force Base, I was met by our Chief, Mr.
James Rowley, who informed me that Mr. Sibert and Mr. O'Neill of the
FBI would join me at the Naval Hospital and to allow them in. I also
informed him that the vehicles--that is, the President's car and our
Secret Service followup car--are en route to Washington from Dallas,
and that he should assign some members from our Washington field office
to go over these cars for any evidence that might be left. In the
morgue, I should say that Special Agent Greer and myself remained all
night, Mr. O'Leary only briefly.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did the----

Mr. KELLERMAN. The family was placed----

Mr. SPECTER. Where did the family go?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They were placed in a room in the tower section of the
Naval Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you actually accompany the body from the vehicle to
the morgue room?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you present during the entire autopsy?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell us in a general way----

Mr. KELLERMAN. I only left on three different occasions.

Mr. SPECTER. For how long were you absent on those occasions?

Mr. KELLERMAN. A minute or two to make a phone call.

Mr. SPECTER. While the autopsy was in session, or when did you leave on
those three occasions?

Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. First I was informed by a Navy personnel that I
should call Mr. Rowley. There wasn't any phone--there was a phone in
the room, but I wasn't aware of it at the time. So, I left and walked
out into the corridor and called him. This was my first knowledge that
they had found a projectile. The second call, I think I called home;
that was my first call to home and that was it.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, the projectile that you just referred to was found
where?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This was the projectile that was reportedly given to our
Special Agent Richard Johnsen as we were leaving the hospital in Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you find out about that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. He says it was given to him by a security man or
security officer in the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you first hear about it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The phone call with Mr. Rowley that morning after we had
got to the morgue.

Mr. SPECTER. What time was this?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I am only guessing; 9 o'clock in the evening.

Mr. SPECTER. Nine o'clock in the evening. You had said morning; you
didn't mean morning; you meant 9 o'clock in the evening when you had a
telephone call. From whom was the call again?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Rowley, Chief of Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. You got the phone call from Mr. Rowley?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Who had called him, if you know?

Mr. KELLERMAN. This I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. But at that time Chief Rowley advised of the detection
of the bullet on the stretcher and brought you up to date with what
information was known at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, have you described all the times that you were absent
from the room of the autopsy?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The only other time that I was absent was when the
autopsy was about completed before the funeral directors were in, and
it was my decision to get Mr. Hill down and view this man for all the
damage that was done; so I went up to the floor where they were at and
brought him down and he inspected the incisions.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your reason for that, Mr. Kellerman?

Mr. KELLERMAN. More witnesses, Mr. Specter; I think more to view the
unfortunate happenings it would be a little better.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did that autopsy start, as you recollect it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Immediately. Immediately after we brought him right in.

Mr. SPECTER. What time was that approximately, if you have a
recollection?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't have a recollection.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did it end, if you recollect?

Mr. KELLERMAN. We left the hospital for the White House at 3:56 in the
morning.

Mr. SPECTER. 3:56 a.m. on November 23?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the autopsy last all that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No. They were going to give these people a couple of
hours that they worked on them.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you observe, during the course of the autopsy,
bullet fragments which you might describe as little stars?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, of the numerous X-rays that were taken mainly of
the skull, the head. The reason for it was that through all the probing
which these gentlemen were trying to pick up little pieces of evidence
in the form of shell fragments, they were unable to locate any. From
the X-rays, when you placed the X-ray up against the light the whole
head looked like a little mass of stars, there must have been 30, 40
lights where these pieces were so minute that they couldn't be reached.
However, all through this series of X-rays this was the one that they
found, through X-ray that was above the right eye, and they removed
that.

Mr. SPECTER. How big a piece was that above the right eye, would you
say?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The tip of a matchhead, a little larger.

Senator COOPER. Let me ask a few questions. Mr. Kellerman, from what
you have just said, I think it would be correct that from the time you
began to assist in removing President Kennedy from his car to the time
you left him in the emergency room that you never saw any bullet on a
stretcher, either his stretcher or Governor Connally's stretcher?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I never saw any bullet, sir.

Senator COOPER. I believe you testified that, at the time you heard
this first report, the President's car was approaching a viaduct?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Approaching, yes, but quite a little distance from it,
sir.

Senator COOPER. Can you make any estimate as to how far away it was.

Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't know the footage, Senator Cooper.

Senator COOPER. Can you see it?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; oh, yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Can you see the viaduct plainly?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Could you tell whether anybody was standing on top of
the viaduct, or did you observe?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I didn't notice anybody up there at all, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did you observe whether anyone was in the immediate
vicinity of the viaduct?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not at this distance; no.

Senator COOPER. Do you have any--at the time of the shots, at the time
that you were conscious of these shots being fired, do you have any
judgment as to from what direction they came?

Mr. KELLERMAN. None whatsoever. Except I should say again that when
this first one went off, which I indicated here that it sounded like
a firecracker to my right and, say, rear, I looked to my right to see
what it was.

Senator COOPER. Then it would be correct to say it was your judgment at
the time, at the time of the report----

Mr. KELLERMAN. It was my judgment, sir.

Senator COOPER. That it was to the right and to the rear?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That would be correct. It was my judgment, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did you observe any persons standing to the right of
the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Maybe a handful.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anything to indicate that any shot had been
fired by those persons?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir; not at the time.

Senator COOPER. When you heard the report and turned, could you see
this building known as the Texas Book Depository?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not by name. You could see the building because we
passed right in front of it, sir.

Senator COOPER. You didn't know it as the Texas Depository Building?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not then, no, sir.

Senator COOPER. Have you any idea how--what distance the President's
car traveled from the time you heard the first report until the time
you have described as hearing the flurry of shots?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I really don't know the distance. It wasn't too far.

Senator COOPER. What?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It wasn't too far.

Mr. SPECTER. For the record, I have some more questions when we
reconvene.

Senator COOPER. We will recess then until 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)



Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF ROY H. KELLERMAN, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE, RESUMED


The President's Commission reconvened at 2 p.m.

Representative FORD. The Commission will come to order.

Will you proceed, Mr. Specter?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, thank you. Mr. Kellerman, immediately before the
luncheon recess, Senator Cooper had asked some questions relating to
the presence of anyone on the triple overpass which was in front of
the President's car. Did you have any occasion, immediately before
or immediately after the shooting, to look for anyone on the triple
overpass or in that vicinity?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I really didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you in a position to state, then, whether there was or
was not someone on the triple overpass?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I am in no position to state that.

Mr. SPECTER. At the time of the shooting, did you observe any bullets
ricochet off of the windshield or off of any other part of the
automobile?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No. If any of the bullets ricocheted off the windshield
or front part of the car, this would have been matter that was blown
over mine and the driver's head from, I would say, the explosion of
President Kennedy's head.

Mr. SPECTER. But aside from the portions of President Kennedy's head
which you have already testified about, you observed nothing detectable
as being bullet fragments or bullets?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Ricocheting off any part of the car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you ever observe any bullet fragments in the car
at rest after the shooting?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe a priest at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; there were two.

Mr. SPECTER. And approximately what time were they present at the
hospital?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When we brought President Kennedy into the emergency
room, the request for a priest was made immediately by one of the
members of the staff. I do not recall who called for one. However, in
the interim, a second call was sent out. Consequently, two showed; not
at the same time, but one after the other.

Mr. SPECTER. How long were they at the hospital?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Just a matter of a couple of minutes of time.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you know where they went upon arrival at the
hospital?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. They went right in the emergency room with the
President.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you in the emergency room at the time they were there?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you know what services, if any, they performed
while they were there?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any conversations with either of them while
they were en route, either coming or going?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the state of readiness of Parkland
Hospital at your arrival, how long after you got there were stretcher
bearers at the front door?

Mr. KELLERMAN. To the best of my knowledge, there were no stretcher
bearers at the car--none.

Mr. SPECTER. At your arrival?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did some come shortly after you arrived?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, what sequence did follow with respect to the arrival
of the stretchers?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When we arrived at the hospital, I had called to the
agents to go inside and get two stretchers on wheels. Between those
people and police officers who also entered the emergency room, they
brought the stretchers out. I did not at any time see a man in a white
uniform outside, indicating a medical person.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you first see the first indication of a doctor?

Mr. KELLERMAN. When we got in the emergency room itself proper.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you know which doctor that was?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not by name or sight; no, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How many doctors did you see at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The room was full.

Mr. SPECTER. Who were the individuals who brought the stretchers on
wheels, if you know?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Agents who were in the followup car, police officers who
were ahead of us on motorcycles.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, did you state how long the autopsy lasted
when you testified this morning?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I didn't. However, this is going to be an assumption
on time; I think I can pin it pretty well.

Mr. SPECTER. Give us your best estimate on that, please.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Let's come back to the period of our arrival at Andrews
Air Force Base, which was 5:58 p.m. at night. By the time it took us
to take the body from the plane into the ambulance, and a couple of
carloads of staff people who followed us, we may have spent 15 minutes
there. And in driving from Andrews to the U.S. Naval Hospital, I would
judge, a good 45 minutes. So there is 7 o'clock. We went immediately
over, without too much delay on the outside of the hospital, into the
morgue. The Navy people had their staff in readiness right then. There
wasn't anybody to call. They were all there. So at the latest, 7:30,
they began to work on the autopsy. And, as I said, we left the hospital
at 3:56 in the morning. Let's give the undertaker people 2 hours. So
they were through at 2 o'clock in the morning. I would judge offhand
that they worked on the autopsy angle 4-1/2, 5 hours.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you present when the funeral director's personnel
were preparing the body?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I was; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And about what time, then, did they complete their work?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They were all through at 3:30.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do immediately after they completed their
work?

Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. Our communication between the Kennedy family
and staff, who were on another floor in the hospital, was in this
regard. We had telephone communication whereby we would tell them if
the body is ready to be taken out of the morgue and into the ambulance.
And they would hit the elevator and come right out the same way. So the
5 minutes it took to load the people in, we left the hospital morgue
part at least at 3:50, and, as I say, we were off at 3:56, driving to
the White House.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you go directly to the White House?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did that complete your tour of duty for that day?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; it did.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, with respect to the time you were present at the
autopsy, was there any conversation of any sort concerning the
possibility of a point of entry from the front of the President's body?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. You have testified about the impression you had as to the
source of the first shot, which sounded to you like a firecracker. Did
you have any impression as to the source of the other shots, which you
described as being a flurry?

Mr. KELLERMAN. If you will excuse me just a minute. I was trying to
elaborate on the last question.

Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me. Go ahead.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Just for the record, I wish to have this down. While the
President is in the morgue, he is lying flat. And with the part of the
skull removed, and the hole in the throat, nobody was aware until they
lifted him up that there was a hole in his shoulder. That was the first
concrete evidence that they knew that the man was hit in the back first.

Mr. SPECTER. When did they lift him up and first observe the hole in
the shoulder?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They had been working on him for quite some time,
Mr. Specter--through the photos and other things they do through an
autopsy. And I believe it was this Colonel Finck who raised him and
there was a clean hole.

Mr. SPECTER. What was said, if anything, by those present at the
autopsy concerning the wound in the throat?

Mr. KELLERMAN. To go back just a little further, the reason for the
hole in the throat, the tracheotomy; I am thinking they were of the
opinion that when the--when he was shot in the head, and they had found
this piece remaining above the eye underneath; I am sure there was some
concern as to where the outlet was, and whether they considered--this
is all an assumption now; whether they considered this--that there was
a hole here in the throat prior to the tracheotomy, I don't know. But
to complete the examination, they lifted him up by the shoulders, and
there was this hole. Now, I think you asked me a question. Could you
repeat it, please?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, let's be sure that we have your final answer on the
question of any conversation at all about a point of entry in the front
part of his body, in his throat, or any place else.

Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't believe, Mr. Specter, that it was ever concluded
that there was an entry in the front.

Mr. SPECTER. Then that completes the conversations at the autopsy?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. On any of the subjects I have asked you about?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right.

Mr. SPECTER. The question which I had then started to ask you was
whether you had any impression at the time of the second and third
shots, which you described as a flurry of shots, as to the point of
origin or source of those shots.

Mr. KELLERMAN. The only answer I can give to that is that they would
have to come from the rear.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, is that the impression or reaction you had at the
time of the flurry?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever, since the time of the assassination to this
date, had any contrary impression, reaction, or view that the shots
came from the front of the President?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, Mr. Kellerman, with respect to the immediate reaction
by you to the emergency situation, did you consider at any time leaving
your seat, on the right front of the President's automobile, to go into
the rear portion, where the President sat?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for--or what was the basis for your
conclusion on that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. After I had heard President Kennedy's voice say, "My
God, I am hit," I viewed him, which was enough for me that he was. My
decision was to get this man to a hospital, because he needed medical
treatment. And during the few seconds that I instructed the driver to
get out of here, we are hit, my second instruction was to the man in
the lead car ahead of us for the same, to lead us to a hospital, that
we are hit. I then turn around, and I had two people injured. Not only
was the President down in his seat; the Governor was down in his seat.
My presence back there was gone. On top of that, I had Mr. Hill lying
across that trunk.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean when you say, sir, that your presence
back there was gone?

Mr. KELLERMAN. They were comfortable, if there is a comfort in this.
Mr. Hill was taking care of Mrs. Kennedy. Mrs. Connally was over the
Governor; there was no motion. The next thing was a doctor, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you consider presenting a further shield for the
President at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the metallic handhold which you described early in
your testimony as being about 15 inches off the top of the seat and
going all the way across the width of the car, did that metal structure
present any substantial impediment to your moving from the front seat
to the rear seat of the automobile?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Specter, I think it would have been a small
obstacle. However, let me say this: If I thought in my own mind that
I was needed back there, there wouldn't have been an obstacle strong
enough to hold me.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the presence of Governor Connally in the jump
seat? Would the presence of Governor Connally or any passenger in the
jump seat provide a substantial obstacle to your moving from your seat
to shield the President's body?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not at all. It wouldn't have made any difference, sir.
Why? Because my job is to protect the President, sir, regardless of the
obstacles.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Greer at any time use the radio in your car?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Kellerman, did the President's automobile at any time
slow down after the first shot?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; not that I recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, that completes our questions, sir.

Representative FORD. As you turned from Houston onto Elm, you were then
facing the triple overpass?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. You were looking forward at the time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. You were not looking to the side particularly, or
back at all?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Don't let me change your thought, Mr. Congressman. But
as we turned left on Elm, there is also another curve before you get to
this overpass.

Representative FORD. A rather slight curve to the right?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much. I still knew there was an overpass.

Representative FORD. But your concentration was ahead?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Ahead.

Representative FORD. Not to the side or to the rear?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; not to the rear especially; that is true. Let me
explain a little more. When you are riding in this automobile, which
is with him, and on your right side, naturally you are observing more
on the right. It is obvious. However, you still have time periodically
to glance over to the left for viewing anything that might be of a
danger--whether it is people or any other object.

Representative FORD. There is no way you would know from personal
observation in what direction the President was looking at the time he
was hit by the first shot?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; I would not.

Representative FORD. Could you outline for us here the process by which
you were put in charge of this particular operation?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. Can you outline for us the procedure that is
followed in such cases?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, indeed. As I said earlier, we have three
people, for a better word, in charge of the White House detail. Mr.
Behn--Gerald Behn--is the special agent in charge. There are two
assistants, Floyd Boring and myself. On all trips this was a divided
matter. And this one was my trip. Not that I picked it or anything.
It was my trip that Mr. Behn said, "You will make this one with the
President." The other two people would have other duties to do. And
this is how it fell on to me for that day, sir.

Representative FORD. Once this assignment is made by Mr. Behn, what
happens after that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. In regard to who, sir?

Representative FORD. To your responsibilities.

Mr. KELLERMAN. The overall.

Representative FORD. In other words, from that assignment by Mr. Behn,
you take charge; you execute; you make assignments and so forth?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Only one thing. I am not going to say that I don't make
assignments. Mr. Congressman, these people all work in a team form. We
have three shifts. They work together for a long time, and to say this,
that they knew each other's footprints, is probably an overstatement.
But they know each other's methods. Let me go back just one step
further. I want to give it clear to you.

Let's say the four or five stops that we had in Texas on this visit--we
had one overnight in Fort Worth. All right. Each time, each stop that
we make, the individual that we had sent out ahead to set up and
coordinate the program with the people in that area, whether it is
security or otherwise, through communications for the days he is away,
he keeps us abreast of what is going on, who to expect, and so forth.

And, again, I should say that in the morning of the 22d in Fort Worth,
this lad called me--Mr. Lawson--asked about the top, whether it should
remain on or off, which decision was reached from Mr. O'Donnell. I then
asked him--I said, "Are we going to be all right in Dallas?" He said,
"Oh, yes; it is a good program." Fine. If and when we ever arrived at
that spot, I would ask this man, is there anything unusual when we get
here. That is a general question that I have given these people all the
time.

Representative FORD. In other words, once the assignment has been made
that you handle this trip, and in this case there was first a stop at
El Paso, then at Houston----

Mr. KELLERMAN. San Antonio.

Representative FORD. San Antonio; then Houston, Fort Worth. You stayed
overnight at Fort Worth?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right.

Representative FORD. Then you proceeded to Dallas on the 22d?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Correct; yes, sir.

Representative FORD. As I understand it, when you arrived at San
Antonio, the man that is in charge there, you immediately contacted.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, indeed.

Representative FORD. When you go to Houston, the same process?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Fort Worth, the same?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine.

Representative FORD. And when you got to Dallas, when you arrived
there, whom did you see first?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Mr. Lawson.

Representative FORD. And what did he tell you?

Mr. KELLERMAN. He said, "Your program is all set. We have all the
equipment and there should be no problem here." Fine.

Let me go back to Fort Worth again. On that night we had an overnight.
The gentleman we had working that stop had an added thing thrown into
him, which was the speech before breakfast. The President spoke to a
crowd across the main street in front of the hotel. After the President
retired that night, he and I went down to that parking lot. I said,
show me where this man is going to be, where the platform is going to
be, where are you going to have all these folks, and how close are they
going to be; show me. He did.

You have got to keep abreast of these things, Mr. Congressman. Well, it
is your job.

Representative FORD. Were all of these men that had charge of these
various operations in San Antonio, Houston, Fort Worth, Dallas, men of
experience?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much; very much so. I want to give you a little
information on how these people are selected for doing your advance
work out of Washington. In the first place, when they are brought in,
you instruct them on everything you do securitywise around the White
House. You instruct them in rangework, followup car work, every little
phase entailed. Then say you have a little movement in town--the
President has a press conference, as an example. He doesn't do that.
Send him with an older fellow. Even if he just walks around, learn it.
Take him another place, a departure from an airport, or a theater. Give
him four or five. Then give him one, give him a little departure at
an airport, or a hotel. But have somebody with him. Then there is no
mistake made.

Representative FORD. Now, when these men are assigned to handle the
responsibilities in a particular city, such as Lawson in Dallas, is
Lawson on the staff here or is he a man from Dallas with the Secret
Service?

Mr. KELLERMAN. These are all people we have in the White House detail,
sir.

Representative FORD. In other words, Lawson was a White House detail
man from Washington?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right, sir. He is one of the men off those three shifts.

Representative FORD. Now, when was your assignment made as the man in
charge of this particular operation?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, I am going to say a week ahead, for lack of a better
time--in fact, I knew that much of it.

Representative FORD. November----

Mr. KELLERMAN. Say the 17th, for a better day.

Representative FORD. On or before November 17th you got this assignment.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Surely. I knew that I was making a trip, and none of the
other two gentlemen were.

Representative FORD. What did you do after you got this
assignment--what steps did you take?

Mr. KELLERMAN. OK. The steps that I took--this entails work right
here in Washington. First, to determine, to staff people in the White
House, who is all going to make it, who are the passengers. This is a
thing that those advance people out in the field do not know when they
leave. You set up the time schedule--flight time--because the people
on the other end want you there at 11:30 in the morning, you have to
work back a flight time from Washington, or the helicopter time from
the White House. All this is incorporated. Weatherwise--you will use an
automobile. Allow a little more time. All right.

From the people that are out in the field on those 4 or 5 different
spots, they are the ones that coordinate with the local folks what
program they would like, which is forwarded back, conferred with staff
people, whether it is approved, disapproved, added, or cut out. And
about the day before you leave, then it is all gelled.

Representative FORD. But this is your principal responsibility, to pull
everything together.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right.

Representative FORD. Now, according to the various reports we have,
when you know you are going to a particular city, or several cities,
you have a method or a procedure to check to see if there are any
individuals or organizations that present a serious threat to the
President.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. We have what we call a Protective Research
Section. This has been in existence for many years, through Roosevelt's
days--I will go back that far. Through the combined efforts of various
sources, through other agencies, they have a file on all the, let's
say dangerous, for a better word, people that could be suspected in
the city he arrives in. They will furnish the agents on those three
shifts, if there are a number of them, or even one--it doesn't make any
difference--all the data possible on that person--it will be given to
each shift. It is a report form; can be read by all. And, if possible,
there is a photograph included. That will be circulated around.

Representative FORD. Now, when you got your assignment on or about
November 17, what did you do in this regard?

Mr. KELLERMAN. One little thing I should say. Well, I am sorry. One
of the first things we do, when a trip is planned, is make a call on
that PRS Section and tell them, "On November 21 we are going to be in
San Antonio, Houston, and Fort Worth. On the 22d we will be in Dallas,
Austin, and at the ranch." And they take it from there, sir.

Representative FORD. So, on or about November 22d, you made this
inquiry.

Mr. KELLERMAN. This inquiry, sir, would be made a week ahead of time.

Representative FORD. A week ahead of the date that you were appointed?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That's right.

Representative FORD. Who would make that inquiry?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That would be made by any one of the three people--Mr.
Behn, Mr. Boring, or myself, or one other person which I interrupted
you a second ago. A departure is given to one man from one of the
shifts who would set up a departure from the White House to Andrews.
He, too, in turn notifies our Protective Research Section of this thing.

Representative FORD. Well, do you know who in this case for this trip
made that inquiry of the Protective Research Section?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't have the name right now.

Representative FORD. Would there be a record of that made?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; yes, sir.

Representative FORD. I think we ought to have that for the record--the
time it was made. You don't recall making it yourself, however.

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know if it was actually done?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It is always done, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. I know. But do you know if it was done in this case?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not for a fact; no.

Representative FORD. But you must assume it was done.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Very much so.

Representative FORD. Were you given the information from this inquiry,
even though you didn't make it yourself?

Mr. KELLERMAN. What kind of information, sir?

Representative FORD. Well, about those people who are considered
dangerous or a problem in any one of these four or five cities where
the President was going on this trip.

Mr. KELLERMAN. I will have to check this, but there was no record.

Representative FORD. In other words----

Mr. KELLERMAN. No information.

Representative FORD. In other words, PRS never turned over to you
any information about any dangerous individuals in any one of these
communities on this trip.

Mr. KELLERMAN. That's right.

Representative FORD. Is this unusual?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes. But let me reserve the right to recheck that
question again; may I?

Representative FORD. Absolutely. All we want in this case, as in any
other, are whatever the facts are to the best of records that are
available.

Mr. KELLERMAN. All right.

Representative FORD. In the report from the Secret Service it says,
and I quote, "Because of the incidents on the occasion of the visit of
Ambassador Stevenson to Dallas earlier in the fall, special attention
was given to extremist groups known to be active in Dallas. Appendix A
describes the action taken in Dallas in more detail." Were you familiar
with that part of the Secret Service activity prior to your departure
for Texas?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I have knowledge of that; yes, sir.

Representative FORD. How much knowledge?

Mr. KELLERMAN. But not enough to be written up, that I recall, sir.

Representative FORD. Well, could you describe for the Commission what
knowledge you did have in this regard?

Mr. KELLERMAN. The only knowledge I can describe to you, sir, is the
fact that we were aware of what this Ambassador went through down
there. However, we had no information that such an incident would
happen to President Kennedy on his trip into that State.

Representative FORD. But I gather from this report, which is the
official report of the Treasury Department, that somebody knew of these
previous incidents, and was thereby alerted to the possibility of--the
potential of one, because the report says, "Special attention is given
to extremist groups known to be in Dallas." Now, could you tell us what
special attention was given?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No. Outside of the fact that everybody was alerted to
this previous incident.

Representative FORD. PRS, Protective Research Section, didn't tell
you, as the person in charge, of any individuals or of any groups that
wanted special attention? I am using "special attention" as in the
report.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Right as of this minute, the only knowledge that I have
of any incident that could happen was in San Antonio, when I believe we
had information of some pickets. Now, those pickets showed up outside
of--he made a speech at that space hospital. Well, anyway, in view of
that, I cannot reach the name right now--these pickets were out at,
let's say, the main gate to the grounds, and just stayed right there
with their placards.

Representative FORD. Also on the report it says, "In accordance with
the usual practice, the local FBI office informed the local Secret
Service office of any information which affected the President's visit."

Mr. KELLERMAN. They did. That is the normal practice.

Representative FORD. That was the normal procedure?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It is always the normal procedure; yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Now, whom would they have informed in this case in
Dallas?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Their report would have come to Washington, and relayed
to our Protective Research Section.

Representative FORD. And the FBI in this instance gave you what
information, if any, that you should relay back to the people----

Mr. KELLERMAN. The only thing I can recall right now, sir, are those
pickets in San Antonio.

Representative FORD. Well, may I say if on your return to your office
you find any information on this particular point, I think it would be
very helpful for the record, and it should be included in the record.

Mr. KELLERMAN. All right. I surely will.

Representative FORD. The report also says, "On October 30, 1963, the
local FBI office gave the local Secret Service officer the name of a
rightwing individual in the Dallas area. An investigation was made.
On November 21 and 22 the local FBI office referred two pieces of
information to the local Dallas office of the Secret Service." Were you
familiar with that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Representative FORD. Who would, under your normal procedures, have been
familiar with that?

Mr. KELLERMAN. It would be the same organization, Protective Research
Section.

Representative FORD. But they did not give you any information of this.

Mr. KELLERMAN. No.

Representative FORD. Is this unusual or different?

Mr. KELLERMAN. If they evaluated this information, there would have to
be a degree of seriousness.

Representative FORD. But, as far as you can best recollect at this
point, you were never so informed.

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, indeed.

Representative FORD. The report does go on to say, and I quote, "One
involved scurrilous literature already in the hands of the Secret
Service, Exhibit 4. The second involved possible picket trouble which
the local police were aware of." That is the picket trouble you were
talking about?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Apparently so.

Representative FORD. The report also says on page 8, "Special Agent
Lawson, SAIC Sorrel, and Special Agent Howlett met with Dallas
law-enforcement officials. Special Agent Howlett also met with an
informant. They followed up all leads and tips and checked scurrilous
literature, Exhibit 4." Did you have any information personally about
this activity by Lawson, Sorrel, and Howlett?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Was it their responsibility to do it, to undertake
that kind of an operation?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Everybody but Lawson. These other two gentlemen you are
speaking of are field agents out of Dallas. Yes; they would investigate
the seriousness of this thing, through the information furnished by
the FBI. And, depending on the degree now, this would be furnished our
Protective Research Section here in Washington.

Representative FORD. Now, did Lawson or anybody else communicate to you
what was going on in this regard?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, no. I do not think Mr. Lawson got in this
investigative part at all. It would not be any part of his duties.

Representative FORD. I am only reading from the report.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes.

Representative FORD. And the report goes on to say, "Their
investigations did not bring to light the name or the individual Lee H.
Oswald, and he or his name was not known to them or any other Secret
Service agent in Dallas or elsewhere prior to this shooting of the
President." Would that be the same as far as you are concerned?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is very true.

Representative FORD. You did not know of Lee H. Oswald?

Mr. KELLERMAN. None whatsoever.

Representative FORD. Was it surprising to you that when the President
was going to a city as large as Dallas, that there were no names turned
over to you, either by your Protective Research Section or by any other
Federal agents--individuals or an individual dangerous to the President?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I recall, to give you an answer, Congressman, that it
did seem strange that here we are hitting five cities in one State
and--and from the apparent trouble Ambassador Stevenson had down there
one evening, we certainly should have had some information on somebody.

Representative FORD. Hypothetically, if you go to other large
metropolitan areas, do you normally get names from various agencies,
including PRS, warning you of an individual or groups that might cause
trouble?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Again I say that our PRS would recheck their files,
from all the cities--from all the cases that they have in that city,
and furnished us information, whether a report or photographwise.
They in turn would--and I believe I am correct on this--they in turn
notify the Bureau of this visit, or may have people check through their
files. They can doublecheck this stuff. I don't recall any information
whatsoever, except that picket thing.

Representative FORD. It is surprising to me, as well, and I gather it
was certainly, on reflection, surprising to you----

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes; it is.

Representative FORD. Was this in itself any warning to you that there
might be some breakdown in the system?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Gee--no; I never cherished that thought, sir.

Representative FORD. You assumed that the proper liaison between
various agencies was taking place, and your PRS was operating
effectively?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Oh, yes; very much; yes indeed. Now, if I am wrong, when
I check these two questions back here, I will let you know.

Mr. SPECTER. Congressman Ford, on this line, perhaps I should say that
organizationally we are divided into phases where this is a separate
phase in terms of protective devices. So, for the prepared part of what
the staff has set up, we have by design omitted that portion here, with
later witnesses to go into all these questions in some detail for the
Commission.

Representative FORD. I was trying to get from Mr. Kellerman--from his
testimony he was indicating that he was the person who from on or about
November 17 had the responsibility. And I was trying to trace precisely
how this responsibility was carried through, up to the point where you
started out this morning. Do I understand, then, that at some later
point in the Commission hearings with other witnesses we will go back
into the process of how these decisions are made, as far as PRS is
concerned?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir. There will be detailed witnesses on the workings
of PRS, and how they functioned with respect to this trip, and what
information the FBI had or the State Department had about Lee Harvey
Oswald, and whatever coordination, if any, was present. Our thought was
that that would be handled separately, organizationally. Certainly, to
some extent it is impossible to draw sharp lines of distinction here.
But that is the way the staff has prepared the distinctions--with Mr.
Kellerman going more specifically, as the other witnesses of today, on
the sequence of events themselves at the assassination.

Representative FORD. But, as far as the procedures within PRS and the
relationship between the Secret Service, the FBI, and other Federal
agencies, that will come up later on in other witnesses who are more
familiar with the precise workings.

Mr. SPECTER. Exactly; yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Who actually had the responsibility to check the
route from the airport to the Trade Mart? I mean to check the route,
lay out whatever security precautions should be taken from the outset
until the day of the President's visit?

Mr. KELLERMAN. That was coordinated, Mr. Congressman, between Mr.
Lawson and members of the Dallas Police Department, sir.

Representative FORD. You did not arrive in Dallas until the morning of
the assassination?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir; that is correct, sir.

Representative FORD. As you were in the car, in the right front seat,
and the car turned from Main Street right into Houston, you had for a
relatively short period of time an opportunity to look at the Texas
School Depository Building. Did you look at it; did you notice anything
about it? What was your reaction, if any, to that particular building?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Not knowing the name of the building--let me say this:
When you are driving down this street, regardless of Houston or which,
and you have buildings on either side of you, you are going to scan
your eyes up and down this building.

Representative FORD. Did this building create, as you turned into
Houston Street, any particular problem that would have alerted you one
way or another?

Mr. KELLERMAN. None whatsoever. It did not produce a thing.

Representative FORD. Your eyes scanned the area. Did they scan
sufficiently to identify anything, to be alerted by anything in any
window, on the roof, or anyplace else?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Did Mr. Lawson or anybody else indicate to you at
any time that the Book Depository Building was a problem?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Representative FORD. I mean beforehand.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Never mentioned it.

Representative FORD. Did Mr. Lawson or anybody else discuss with you
any particular danger involved in the overpass, the triple overpass?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Did you have minute knowledge as to the route in
Dallas, or was that left up to Lawson in his judgment?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Left up to Lawson and the people in Texas.

Representative FORD. But he did tell you when you arrived in Dallas;
what, again?

Mr. KELLERMAN. And the people in Texas, the police department.

Representative FORD. What did he tell you? When you arrived in Dallas
that morning, he told you something.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir. He said, "This is your reception committee,
which is at the bottom of the ramp leading out." I said, "Are we all
right in Dallas here all the way for today?" And he said, "Yes; this
will be fine." I said, "All right; let's get on with it."

Representative FORD. When were you first interviewed by anyone
regarding the directions from which the shots came?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I don't recall ever being interviewed.

Representative FORD. Did you ever make a statement for submission to
the Commission or to your supervisors?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Just this statement that I submitted here.

Representative FORD. Which is included in the Secret Service report.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Did you have anything to do with setting up the
method of trying to apprehend the alleged assassin? Was that outside or
within your jurisdiction?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Outside, sir.

Representative FORD. You did nothing in that regard.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Nothing.

Representative FORD. I believe that is all. I have to go back to a very
important committee meeting, Mr. Chairman. I may be able to get back
later, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. I will be here the rest of the afternoon, so there will
be no necessity of your coming back if you are tied up. Thank you very
much for presiding all day.

Mr. Specter, have you some more questioning?

Mr. SPECTER. I have just one or two other questions.

Mr. Kellerman, you referred to a single statement which you said you
had made. In the report of the U.S. Secret Service on the assassination
of President Kennedy, on Exhibit 12, statement 11--we have the first
statement which you made, which is four pages, and that is the one to
which you referred, to refresh your recollection earlier today, and I
show you what appears to be a second very brief report which you made 1
day later under date of November 30, 1963, with your name and initials,
and ask you if you made this one, also.

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is right; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. You referred to you and Mr. Boring being the
two assistant special agents in charge. Is that status the same at the
present time, or are there now three assistant special agents in charge?

Mr. KELLERMAN. There are three. Mr. Rufus Youngblood is the third one.

Mr. SPECTER. Has that slight shift been made since the time of the
assassination.

Mr. KELLERMAN. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, those are my only additional questions,
sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Craig, would you like to ask any questions, or do you
think of any other avenue that we should explore here?

Mr. CRAIG. No, sir; thank you, Mr. Chief Justice. As the interrogation
has progressed, I have been handing notes to counsel and he has been
very kind in asking those questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Murray, can you think of anything?

Mr. MURRAY. No, thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

Mr. SMITH. Off the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. CRAIG. Mr. Kellerman, is there any special agent in charge of the
protection of the person next in line in succession, to your knowledge?

Mr. KELLERMAN. I think Mr. Rowley would like to man that. I think they
have had a little difficulty to find a man.

Mr. CRAIG. There is no such person now?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No, they have made numerous attempts with the people,
and so far they have got a negative reply.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Mr. Kellerman, thank you very much, sir, for your
attendance and for your testimony.

Mr. KELLERMAN. Thank you, sir.

(At this point, Representative Ford left the hearing room.)

The CHAIRMAN. Now, Mr. Specter.

Mr. SPECTER. We will call Mr. Greer.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Greer, how do you, sir.

Mr. Greer, will you raise your right hand and be sworn.

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing
but the truth before this Commission, so help you God?

Mr. GREER. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you be seated, please.


TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM ROBERT GREER, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please.

Mr. GREER. William Robert Greer.

Mr. SPECTER. By whom are you employed, Mr. Greer?

Mr. GREER. The Treasury Department, Secret Service Division of the
Treasury Department.

Mr. SPECTER. How old are you at the present time?

Mr. GREER. Fifty-four years old.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been with the Secret Service Department?

Mr. GREER. I have been with the Secret Service Department since October
1, 1945.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background?

Mr. GREER. I have just education in public schools in Ireland, really.

Mr. SPECTER. And----

Mr. GREER. I took courses here in this country.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you a high school graduate, then?

Mr. GREER. Well, I have 2 years of high school.

Mr. SPECTER. And when did you complete this educational background?

Mr. GREER. I have to go back now.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately.

Mr. GREER. About 1924 or 1925.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline in a general way what your activities
have been since that time, up until your joining the Secret Service,
please?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. I was born and raised on farmwork, a farmer. And
I done that until I came to this country in February 1930. I worked
for a period of time--I lived in Boston for a little while. I worked
one summer on the estate of Henry Cabot Lodge. I was a chauffeur for a
family in Brookline, Mass., for about a year. And then I went to New
York, Dobbs Ferry, N.Y. I lived there for 13 years as a chauffeur for a
private family in Dobbs Ferry, N.Y. Then I went in the Navy in November
1942. I got discharged on September 18, 1945.

Mr. SPECTER. What were your principal duties while in the Navy?

Mr. GREER. I was seaman first class. I did almost 2 years at
Bainbridge, Md., with the seaman guard there. And then I was assigned
to the presidential yacht in May 1944, until I was discharged in
September. But most of my duty was at the White House in that period,
that year.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long after discharge from the Navy was it before
you joined the U.S. Secret Service?

Mr. GREER. Well, I got out of the Navy September 18 and October 1 I
went with the Secret Service--a matter of 14 or 15 days.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe your duties since joining the Secret Service,
please.

Mr. GREER. Since joining the Secret Service I was assigned to the
uniform force at first with the Secret Service at the Bureau of
Engraving and Printing. For about 2 years I was with the physical
education part of it. We had a gymnasium there. I was an instructor
there part-time--part of the time. And then I was assigned for about 2
years to pick up the food of the President at the White House. I had
that duty for about 2 years. And then I went back to the Treasury for
a short period, a few months. And then I was reassigned to the White
House as an agent in November--1950 I went, there. I was made a full
agent that following August 1951. I was there as a special officer from
November to August 1951.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you been assigned to the White House staff since
that time?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I have been there ever since.

Mr. SPECTER. And while assigned at the White House staff, how much of
your duty has involved driving the President's car?

Mr. GREER. Well, I drove the followup car for quite a long time--you
know, off and on. And then I drove the President at intervals
during President Truman's and President Eisenhower's terms. I was
also assigned a great many times to Mrs. Eisenhower. When she left
Washington, I was always assigned to her, to travel with her. And I
have been assigned to the President, to drive the President, since
election day, with President Kennedy. I was the senior agent assigned
to him, to drive him.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you get to Dallas yourself back on November 22,
1963?

Mr. GREER. I flew--I was on a plane with the President all during the
trip. And I flew from Fort Worth to Dallas that morning.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, I hand you documents which have been marked
Commission Exhibits 344, 345, and 346. I ask you if you can identify
those, starting with 344, what that depicts.

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I can identify this automobile very well. That is
the 1961 Lincoln, especially built for the President. And this is a
rear view of that same automobile. This is the interior of that Lincoln
Continental. Yes, sir, everything is very positive that I can identify.

Mr. SPECTER. How did that automobile--how was that automobile
transported to Texas?

Mr. GREER. It was flown there in a C-130.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you know where it was flown to?

Mr. GREER. Well, it was flown--let's see, I forget the day before where
our first stop was on that trip right now. I would have to go back into
my papers. But we used I believe more than one stop. I am trying to
think where we used it before we went to Dallas. It could have been at
Houston. I am not too sure whether we used it at Houston the day before
or not. I would have to go back in my records.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it possible the first time you used the automobile on
that Texas trip was at Dallas?

Mr. GREER. Right now it is so long ago, I have almost forgotten whether
we did use it at Houston prior to that or not. I am not too sure where
the first stop was. We sometimes use it more than one stop.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any covering which can be put on the President's
automobile?

Mr. GREER. There is--when we put the plastic--I put the plastic on it,
we have a black canvass-type cover that buttons over the top of the
plastic.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you please describe in a general way the plastic
covering you just referred to.

Mr. GREER. The plastic covering is made in six pieces. Three of
them--there are two corner pieces and a centerpiece on the back that
we fasten together before we set it up onto the car. Then there is a
front--one piece that goes across the front seat after that. Then the
last pieces we put on are two that go in the center, and they meet
together in the center--they come together in the center. That makes
the six pieces that it comes down in. We have to break it down in the
six pieces to store it in the trunk. It is kept in the trunk of the car
whenever we are not using it.

Mr. SPECTER. Are the three pieces that you described as being joined
together for the rear portion disassembled at all times?

Mr. GREER. We disassemble them to store them in the trunk, yes, sir.
But we put them together on the floor, on the ground or something like
that--we put the three pieces together, then we lift it up and set it
in place, which covers the back seat of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. And after you put the three pieces together for the back
portion of the car, how many additional pieces are there for the
balance of the car?

Mr. GREER. Three; three more pieces.

Mr. SPECTER. And how are they secured to the automobile itself?

Mr. GREER. They are secured with--I don't know what you would call
it--these fasteners, snaps, kind of snaps that snap on them. We have
them made that way so that we can install them or take them apart very
fast.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, is this cover transparent? Can it be seen through?

Mr. GREER. The plastic; yes. You can see through it.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the plastic made of, if you know?

Mr. GREER. Well, it is a type of plastic. I just don't know who
manufactures it. But it is clear plastic.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it bulletproof or bullet resistant?

Mr. GREER. No, sir. It is weather--the idea back of it was for
inclement weather, that the President could be seen if the weather was
too bad to have him outside. That is what we had in mind originally
with it.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any personal knowledge of any efforts made to
obtain a bulletproof or bullet-resistant transparent top?

Mr. GREER. Now, or before that?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, start beforehand.

Mr. GREER. No; I never had anything to do with that at all. I never had
anything to do with anything being made for that.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what efforts have been made subsequent to
the assassination of President Kennedy to obtain such a bulletproof
transparent top?

Mr. GREER. Only just hearing conversation; nothing definite; no, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time, to the best of your recollection,
did President Kennedy arrive in Dallas on November 22?

Mr. GREER. I would have to--I would not tell you right now. I would
have to go back and look into my--you probably have it there. I have it
also on my report.

Mr. SPECTER. If you don't recall the exact time, just give us your best
estimate.

Mr. GREER. Approximately 11:35. I am guessing.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was his mode of transportation into Dallas?

Mr. GREER. He flew on an Air Force plane.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did he fly from?

Mr. GREER. From Fort Worth to Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you tell us in a general way what he did upon arrival
in Dallas at Love Field?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. He got off the plane. He walked along the fence
along there, and shook hands with a great many people. There was a
large crowd there. He and Mrs. Kennedy both walked along and shook
hands with many people.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, approximately how long after arrival at Love Field
did he get into his automobile?

Mr. GREER. I would guess probably, say, approximately maybe 10 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. What were the weather conditions like that day as he got
into his automobile?

Mr. GREER. The weather was very nice that day. It was a beautiful day
in Dallas, very fine day, warm, fairly warm, nice day.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the car open?

Mr. GREER. The car was open; no top.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many automobiles were there in that
motorcade?

Mr. GREER. I wouldn't have--couldn't tell you right now how many. There
was quite a few cars.

Mr. SPECTER. Who were the occupants of the President's car?

Mr. GREER. On the back seat, on the right rear seat, the President,
Mrs. Kennedy on the left rear seat, Governor Connally was on the right
jump seat, and Mrs. Connally was on the left jump seat. Mr. Kellerman
was riding on the right front, and I was driving.

Mr. SPECTER. At what speed did you travel as you proceeded at various
points from Love Field, say, down into the downtown area of Dallas?

Mr. GREER. Well, we traveled at various speeds, according to the amount
of people, the crowd. If it was--if we came to a large crowd, we would
have to slow down. I would say, to probably 10 to 15 miles an hour.
Then we would pick it up possibly 25 or somewhere around--25 maybe to
30, where there was few people.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the maximum speed at which you drove from the
time you left Love Field until the time you got to downtown Dallas?

Mr. GREER. I wouldn't have the slightest idea now, after this length of
time. I could not say how much it would be.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us your best estimate on the minimum speed
from the time you left Love Field until the time you arrived at
downtown Dallas?

Mr. GREER. The minimum speed traveling at all would probably be 10 to
15 miles an hour.

Mr. SPECTER. And what sort of crowds were along the way?

Mr. GREER. There was large crowds--at some places there was quite large
crowds.

Mr. SPECTER. Did anything unusual occur en route from Love Field to the
downtown area of Dallas?

Mr. GREER. Well, I think--it may have been--we may have stopped one
time where he got out--didn't get out, but he stopped and spoke to some
young people, I believe, en route. I think there may have been a group
of people there.

Mr. SPECTER. I hand you a photograph which has already been marked
Commission Exhibit No. 347 and ask you if at this time you are able to
identify what that photograph depicts.

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. That is the photograph of the route that we
traveled in Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 348
and ask you if you can identify what that picture represents.

Mr. GREER. With pictures that I have seen since then, I would recognize
that as the Book Depository Building in Dallas--the street in front of
it.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you familiar with the name of this street, which has
since been marked by Mr. Kellerman, who identified this exhibit and
marked the name of the street on it?

Mr. GREER. No, I wasn't at the time, but I know now that it is supposed
to be Main Street.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you know in what general direction Main Street
proceeds?

Mr. GREER. I am not too sure. No; I wouldn't really know. I didn't have
enough time.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you familiar with the street which intersects with
Main----

Mr. GREER. Houston Street.

Mr. SPECTER. And what street did you turn off of from Houston?

Mr. GREER. Houston to Elm Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you were proceeding down Main Street, which I will
add is in a generally westerly direction, what is your best estimate of
your speed as you turned the corner right onto Houston Street?

Mr. GREER. I would estimate the speed was somewhere between 12 to 15
miles per hour, coming through there.

Mr. SPECTER. And as you made that right-hand turn onto Houston Street,
what was the composition of the crowds along the way, if any?

Mr. GREER. On Main Street there were very, very large crowds. They were
almost close up against the automobile. Sometimes the motorcycles on
the sides could not even get through. They were real close to us. And
very large crowds. And when we got around on Houston Street, the crowds
thinned out quite a lot. My recollection here is that there wasn't too
many people on Elm Street--a few scattered people at that point.

Mr. SPECTER. And your finger indicated there the position near the
Texas School Depository Building?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you have described motorcycles. How many were present
with the President's automobile, if any?

Mr. GREER. I could not tell the exact amount of motorcycles that were
escorting us at that time. We usually do have them on the two front
fenders and two rear fenders, and some probably preceding that, and
some along the motorcade behind us. I could not tell you exactly how
many there probably would be.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect that there were some on this occasion,
however?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; there were motorcycles.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you know how many cars back your car was in the
motorcade?

Mr. GREER. No; I don't know how many police cars were ahead of us. I
knew that the lead car was right directly ahead of me, with one of our
agents, or maybe two, and the chief of police in that car. But how many
police cars prior to that, I do not know how many there were at the
time in front of us.

Mr. SPECTER. How far ahead of you was that police car as you turned off
of Main Street onto Houston?

Mr. GREER. I usually allow 4 or 5 car lengths, if possible, between the
car and myself, in case that there is any reason to speed up quick. I
like to leave enough room that I can get out of there. I don't like to
get too tight to the lead car when possible--unless the crowds are so
big that I have to get in or they would close in on me--I have to get
in closer.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how far behind you the first car immediately
behind yours was?

Mr. GREER. The car behind me was only some few feet, because with our
training and all, we stay very, very close to the President's car.
Sometimes we are bumper to bumper. And the car never is much more than
10 to 12 feet away from the President's car, at slow speeds.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you endeavor to maintain a constant speed in the
operation of the President's car so as to avoid contact with this
close gap between the President's car and the President's follow-up
automobile?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. We tried to drive at a very steady speed. We are
used to driving with each other, and we almost can tell each other's
thoughts what we do, because of the training we have had, and we work
so long together. We drive at a steady pace of speed, so that we give
each other enough ample time to stop or move in close.

Mr. SPECTER. After turning off Main onto Houston, did you have any
opportunity to take a look at the building which you have since
identified as the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. GREER. No, sir. I had not any chance to look much at that building
at all. When I made the turn into Elm Street, I was watching the
overpass expressway--the overpass, or what was ahead of me. I always
look at any--where I go underneath anything, I always watch above, so
if there is anyone up there that I can move so that I won't go over the
top of anyone, if they are unidentified to me, unless it is a policeman
or something like that. We try to avoid going under them.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, when you turned off of Houston onto Elm, did you make
a right-hand or a left-hand turn?

Mr. GREER. I made a right-hand turn off of Main onto Houston.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you turned from Houston onto Elm, was that a
right-hand or a left-hand turn?

Mr. GREER. That was a left-hand turn.

Mr. SPECTER. And as you turned onto Elm Street, how far, to the best of
your ability to estimate, was your automobile from the overpass which
you have just described?

Mr. GREER. I wouldn't have a distance recollection at all on how far it
was. It wasn't too far. I just could not give you the distance.

Mr. SPECTER. At that time, did you make a conscious effort to observe
what was present, if anything, on that overpass?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. I was making sure that I could not see anyone that
might be standing there, and I didn't see anything that I was afraid of
on the overpass.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anything at all on the overpass?

Mr. GREER. Not that I can now remember.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection of the speed at which you
were traveling as you turned left off of Houston onto Elm?

Mr. GREER. My best recollection would be between 12 and 15 miles per
hour.

Mr. SPECTER. And how far were you at that time behind the police car
which was in front of you?

Mr. GREER. Probably 50 feet maybe--approximately. I will say
approximately 50 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. As you turned onto Elm, did you have any opportunity to
observe how far behind you the President's follow-up car was?

Mr. GREER. No, sir. I was not looking in my mirror; I could not say how
far it was behind me at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the nature of the crowd as you made the turn
onto Elm Street, if you recall?

Mr. GREER. To the best of my memory, the crowd had thinned out a great
deal, and there was not too many people in front of that building.

Mr. SPECTER. How many lanes of travel were there on Elm Street?

Mr. GREER. It was either three or four lanes wide. I have forgotten.

Mr. SPECTER. In what portion of the street were you traveling?

Mr. GREER. I was right in the center of the street.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe for us the contour of the street at
that point--whether it was level, hilly, or what.

Mr. GREER. It was starting to go down--gradually going down toward this
underpass. It was a down grade.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you tell us just what occurred as you were
proceeding down Elm Street at that time?

Mr. GREER. Well, when we were going down Elm Street, I heard a noise
that I thought was a backfire of one of the motorcycle policemen. And
I didn't--it did not affect me like anything else. I just thought that
it is what it was. We had had so many motorcycles around us. So I heard
this noise. And I thought that is what it was. And then I heard it
again. And I glanced over my shoulder. And I saw Governor Connally like
he was starting to fall. Then I realized there was something wrong. I
tramped on the accelerator, and at the same time Mr. Kellerman said to
me, "Get out of here fast." And I cannot remember even the other shots
or noises that was. I cannot quite remember any more. I did not see
anything happen behind me any more, because I was occupied with getting
away.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how many shots, or how many noises have you just
described that you heard?

Mr. GREER. I know there was three that I heard--three. But I cannot
remember any more than probably three. I know there was three anyway
that I heard.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an independent recollection at this moment of
having heard three shots at that time?

Mr. GREER. I knew that after I heard the second one, that is when I
looked over my shoulder, and I was conscious that there was something
wrong, because that is when I saw Governor Connally. And when I turned
around again, to the best of my recollection there was another one,
right immediately after.

Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your ability to recollect and estimate,
how much time elapsed from the first noise which you have described as
being similar to the backfire of a motor vehicle until you heard the
second noise?

Mr. GREER. It seems a matter of seconds, I really couldn't say. Three
or four seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. How much time elapsed, to the best of your ability to
estimate and recollect, between the time of the second noise and the
time of the third noise?

Mr. GREER. The last two seemed to be just simultaneously, one behind
the other, but I don't recollect just how much, how many seconds were
between the two. I couldn't really say.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe as best you can the types of sound of the second
report, as distinguished from the first noise which you said was
similar to a motorcycle backfire?

Mr. GREER. The second one didn't sound any different much than the
first one but I kind of got, by turning around, I don't know whether
I got a little concussion of it, maybe when it hit something or not,
I may have gotten a little concussion that made me think there was
something different to it. But so far as the noise is concerned, I
haven't got any memory of any difference in them at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe as best you can the sound of the third noise.

Mr. GREER. Just, to me it was similar, to the first two. They all
sounded practically the same to me.

Mr. SPECTER. You testified that at the second noise you glanced over
your shoulder.

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Which shoulder did you glance over?

Mr. GREER. Right shoulder.

Mr. SPECTER. And describe or indicate how far you turned your head to
the right at that time?

Mr. GREER. Just so that my eyes over, caught the Governor, I could see,
I couldn't see the President. I just could see the Governor. I made a
quick glance and back again.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the movement of your head just then approximately the
same?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. As the time?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You just indicated the turn of your head slightly to the
right.

Mr. GREER. My eyes slightly more than my head. My eyes went more than
my head around. I had vision real quick of it.

Mr. SPECTER. Exactly where was Governor Connally when you first caught
him out of the corner of your eye?

Mr. GREER. He was--he seemed to be falling a little bit toward Mrs.
Connally, to the left. He started to go over a little bit to the left.

Mr. SPECTER. And how far did you catch his movement during the time you
were able to observe him?

Mr. GREER. Just a second. He probably hadn't gotten his shoulder, he
hadn't fell down or anything. He probably was in a position such as I
am now.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall to the rear or to the side or how?

Mr. GREER. In my opinion, he fell toward Mrs. Connally which would be
to his left or to his side.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he fall then on his left shoulder and arm or in some
other way?

Mr. GREER. He appeared to me to be falling on his left shoulder when I
glanced. He had only started to move that way whenever he--when I saw
him.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to see anything of President Kennedy as you
glanced to the rear?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't see anything of the President. I didn't
look, I wasn't far enough around to see the President.

Mr. SPECTER. When you started that glance, are you able to recollect
whether you started to glance before, exactly simultaneously with or
after that second shot?

Mr. GREER. It was almost simultaneously that he had--something had hit,
you know, when I had seen him. It seemed like in the same second almost
that something had hit, you know, whenever I turned around. I saw him
start to fall.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you step on the accelerator before, simultaneously or
after Mr. Kellerman instructed you to accelerate?

Mr. GREER. It was about simultaneously.

Mr. SPECTER. So that it was your reaction to accelerate prior to the
time----

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You had gotten that instruction?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was my reaction that caused me to accelerate.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect whether you accelerated before or at the
same time or after the third shot?

Mr. GREER. I couldn't really say. Just as soon as I turned my head back
from the second shot, right away I accelerated right then. It was a
matter of my reflexes to the accelerator.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it at about that time that you heard the third shot?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; just as soon as I turned my head.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the speed of the car at the
time of the first, second, or third shots?

Mr. GREER. I would estimate my speed was between 12 and 15 miles per
hour.

Mr. SPECTER. At the time all of the shots occurred?

Mr. GREER. At the time the shots occurred.

Mr. SPECTER. Now what, if anything, was Mr. Kellerman doing at the time
of the first shot?

Mr. GREER. I couldn't really speak for where he was watching, what part
of the street or the buildings or what he was watching at that time. I
don't really know.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what Mr. Kellerman was doing at the time of
the second shot?

Mr. GREER. He was sitting there in the front. No, sir; I don't know
what his action was then. I was watching the overpass, I wasn't looking
his way.

Mr. SPECTER. When you were watching the overpass at that time, did you
observe anything on the overpass?

Mr. GREER. Not that I can remember now.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe that there was no one present on the
overpass?

Mr. GREER. My recollection, there may have been a police officer up
there. It is vague to me now everything that I had seen at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what Mr. Kellerman was doing at the time of
the third shot?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't say what he was doing.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any radio communication between your automobile
and any of the other automobiles?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Who made that radio communication?

Mr. GREER. Kellerman.

Mr. SPECTER. Tell us as precisely as you can when he made that radio
communication.

Mr. GREER. After he had said to me, "Get out of here fast." He got the
radio and called to the lead car, "Get us to a hospital fast, nearest
hospital fast."

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether he said anything else at that time?

Mr. GREER. After he had said to me, he said, "12:30," and that is all I
remember him saying to me was 12:30, and he had communications with the
cars but I don't remember what he had said to them.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he say just "12:30," or was it 12:30 used in a
sentence?

Mr. GREER. He said "12:30." He looked at his watch, he said "12:30,"
and we were in the underpass at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, would you on Commission's Exhibit 347, mark
with an "A" as best you can indicate the position of the President's
automobile at the time of the first shot?

Mr. GREER. Do you want me to mark it on this exhibit?

Mr. SPECTER. Right there, that is right, that red pencil with an "A," a
small "A."

Mr. GREER. This is the center, I would say [indicating].

Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark your best estimate as to the position of the
automobile at the time of the second shot with the letter "B"?

Mr. GREER. I would have to guess how far I had traveled at that time. I
really wouldn't know. It was probably a little farther, only guessing
how far I would go. I am guessing as to the distance between them.
Maybe farther but I am only guessing to say at that. I wouldn't have
any definite reason.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you make that "B" a little plainer, if you can?

Mr. GREER. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you give us the best estimate in feet as to the
distance you traveled from the time of the first shot to the time of
the second shot?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I don't believe I could. Anything I would say would
be guessing.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you be able to give us a meaningful mark on the
overhead photograph as to the position of your car at the time of the
third shot?

Mr. GREER. From this overhead. I probably was where this mark is here.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you mark it?

Mr. GREER. I will put it alongside.

Mr. SPECTER. Put a little "C."

Mr. GREER. This was for the third shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. GREER. This is "C." This not having an idea really of how much
footage is in there at all. I wouldn't----

The CHAIRMAN. I didn't understand.

Mr. GREER. I said I wouldn't probably know, Mr. Chief Justice, how many
feet would be in that distance, I would be guessing how many feet.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; I understand.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe the overhead as
you were driving along after the last shot occurred?

Mr. GREER. No, sir. I was fairly close to it, to the best of my memory,
and I was trying to watch then where I was going. I had to look ahead
to see, I was catching up on the lead car real fast, and I had to watch
what was ahead of me.

Mr. SPECTER. How fast was it possible to accelerate your automobile at
that time?

Mr. GREER. Well, it is a very heavy automobile, and it does not pick up
too fast on account of the weight. I have never tested to see how many
feet I could travel in a second. I have never had any reason to test it
to see how much I could travel. But it was in low gear at that time,
and that helps you to accelerate a lot faster.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you characterize it as a very rapid or a rapid
acceleration?

Mr. GREER. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Or how would you characterize it?

Mr. GREER. It is a very smooth car taking off anyway, and I would say
it wasn't rapid. It is fairly fast in low gear but not rapid like a
light car will be.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that car have an automatic transmission?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what are the varieties of forward speeds in the
vehicle?

Mr. GREER. It has a low gear and then it has drive one and drive two.
It has two top gears. One has, one probably has, free wheeling more
than the other. The other is not a free wheeling gear.

Mr. SPECTER. How fast can the car be driven in the low gear?

Mr. GREER. I would say safely you can drive it up to 40 miles an hour
in low gear. That is estimating it at 40.

Mr. SPECTER. From the time of the first shot until the time of the
third shot, was your car moving in a straight line or in an arc or how
would you describe it?

Mr. GREER. I was following the contour of the road, the center of the
contour of the road as it goes.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the path of the contour of the road?

Mr. GREER. Well, at the time I didn't think much of it but it is a
little, there is a little bend in the road going to the underpass.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear anyone in the car say anything from the time
of the first shot until the time of the third shot?

Mr. GREER. Not to the best of my recollection, I don't remember.

(At this point, Representative Boggs entered the hearing room.)

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, did you hear anyone say anything from the time
of the third shot until the time of arrival at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't. I didn't hear, I can't remember hearing
anyone say anything at all. We were quite preoccupied to get to the
hospital as fast as we can, as we could, and that was my mind was
really occupied on what I was doing. I didn't hear anything.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what speed you were traveling at en route to
the hospital?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't say. I was just getting through the
traffic and through the streets as fast as I could get through.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any estimate at all on speed?

Mr. GREER. I would estimate that I must have been doing 40 or 50, at
least 50 miles an hour at times. We might have been going as fast as 50
miles an hour, I am sure.

Mr. SPECTER. When you accelerated your automobile, did you at any time
come alongside of or pass the police car in front of you?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I never passed it. I came up alongside one or two
motorcycle men and I called to them "get to a hospital fast". You know,
I called to them "hospital".

Mr. SPECTER. Were you led to the hospital?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I was led to the hospital by the police car who
was preceding me.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any independent knowledge of the route from
where you were?

Mr. GREER. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. From the point of assassination to the hospital?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you escorted by any other automobiles besides the
police car in front of you?

Mr. GREER. We had motorcycles and I don't know if there were other
police cars out in front of that or not. I am sure there may have been,
but I couldn't say right now.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any radio communication between your automobile
and the hospital at any time prior to your arrival at the hospital?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; not between the hospital and our car.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Kellerman have any radio contact at all with
anyone in addition to that which you have already described?

Mr. GREER. He may have had some more communications to the car, the
lead car, but I can't remember what they were now.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullets strike any portion of the car
or ricochet in any way during the course of the shooting?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any bullets or fragments of bullets at
rest in the car after the shooting terminated?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't. I left the car at the hospital and I
didn't see it any more until the next day.

Mr. SPECTER. I hand you Commission Exhibit No. 349, Mr. Greer, and ask
if you are able to identify what that picture represents?

Mr. GREER. That represents the windshield of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Of the President's car?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it looks like the windshield of the President's
car.

Mr. SPECTER. Now calling your attention to a small arrow----

Mr. GREER. Arrow.

Mr. SPECTER. Which points up on what appears to be an indentation, I
ask you if you--when was the first time, if at all, that you observed
that indentation?

Mr. GREER. I didn't observe that----

Mr. SPECTER. On the car?

Mr. GREER. Until after I got back to Washington, until the car came
back to Washington. I saw it at the White House garage. It was the
first time I had ever noticed that.

Mr. SPECTER. On what date did you observe that indentation on the car?

Mr. GREER. That was the day after, the 23, would be it. It would be the
day after the shooting. We got back from Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. And what time of the day did you observe the car at the
White House garage on that date?

Mr. GREER. It was in the afternoon, I believe. I believe it was in the
afternoon, I believe.

Mr. SPECTER. Did anyone call that indentation to your attention at that
time?

Mr. GREER. Yes; I was asked if I knew about it.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was it who asked you?

Mr. GREER. I can't remember now who did say that, but I was shown that
indentation at the same time I was the break in the glass. I was shown
both and asked if I had known but I can't remember who might have asked
me.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever observed that indentation before the
assassination occurred?

Mr. GREER. No, sir. I had never noticed it before at any time. I had
never seen it before.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever had any occasion to examine closely that
metallic area to ascertain whether or not there was such an indentation
prior to the assassination?

Mr. GREER. Well, it seems to me I would have prior to that had it been
there because I do take care of the car sometimes, and it had never
been--I had never noticed it at any previous time.

Mr. SPECTER. I hand you Commission Exhibit 350 and ask you if you are
able to state what that depicts?

Mr. GREER. That depicts a break or a shatter in the windshield of it.

Mr. SPECTER. Does that picture accurately represent the status of the
windshield on the President's car at sometime?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; that windshield looks real familiar to me on the
way it----

Mr. SPECTER. At what time, based on your observation, did the
windshield of the President's car look like that picture?

Mr. GREER. I had never seen that until the following day after it came
back from Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. But on November 23, did the President's car windshield
look like that?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it looked like there was a break that had a
diamond, in the windshield whenever I was shown that at the garage, the
White House garage.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the size and scope of the crack the same as that which
is shown on that exhibit?

Mr. GREER. That I wouldn't remember whether it was quite that large
or not. I don't believe it was that big. It might not have been but I
wouldn't say for sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any crack on the windshield after the time
of the shooting on November 22?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't see it at all. I didn't know anything
about it until I came back, until the car came back and I was shown
that.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion on November 22, after the
shooting, to observe closely the windshield?

Mr. GREER. No, sir. The only time I was in the car was going to the
hospital and I never--I didn't see the car any more. It was just from
the shooting until we got to Parkland that I was with the car. I left
the car there and never did see it until it was back at the White House
garage.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state with certainty there was no crack in
that windshield prior to the shooting on November 22?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I am sure there was nothing wrong with that
windshield prior to that because I would have--it was almost in front
of me and I examined the car. I looked it all over when I got there. I
saw it was clean and everything, the windshield. I didn't see this ever
at any time previous.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, I now call your attention to a windshield
which has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 351, and I will ask
you to take a look at it and identify it for us, if you can, calling
your attention first of all to the windshield itself. Are you able to
state----

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; this is the windshield that came out of the
Lincoln.

Mr. SPECTER. That you were operating on the day of the assassination?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe what cracks, if any, which you see now on
that windshield were present?

Mr. GREER. When I looked----

Mr. SPECTER. When you observed the automobile windshield on November
23, the next day?

Mr. GREER. This little star, the star in here with the little star.
These cracks were not there.

Mr. SPECTER. Now by these cracks you are indicating----

Mr. GREER. These.

Mr. SPECTER. The long cracks which radiate off from the center?

Mr. GREER. That is right. This was the only cracks that I could see was
this star-type fragment.

Mr. SPECTER. There you are indicating what would be described as the
principal point of contact which was present when you observed it on
November 23?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Give me your best estimate on the diameter of the cracking
of the windshield as it existed on November 23?

Mr. GREER. To the best of my estimate it would be these little stars
that are here, the little shatters that are here.

Mr. SPECTER. Would it be fair to say that you are indicating a circle
with a circumference or diameter of approximately an inch to an inch
and a half?

Mr. GREER. I don't think--it probably would be an inch. The whole
diameter.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately 1 inch as you estimate it?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Excuse me, did you say you did not notice this
crack from the time that you drove the car after the shooting to the
hospital?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I had flags on the car and you know they were
waving at a high rate of speed and you have the Presidential flag and
the American flag in front of you there; you know when you are going
at a fast speed you get a lot of, well, I don't know how you would say
it, it attracts you so much that I didn't have any recollection of what
happened on the windshield.

Representative BOGGS. There was no glass or anything that spattered on
you in any way?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't feel anything at all. I didn't feel a
thing hit me. I was kind of shocked at the time, I guess anything
could have and I wouldn't have known what hit me. You are tense, I was
pretty tense, and naturally my thoughts were the hospital, and how fast
I could get there, and probably I could have been injured and not even
known I was injured. I was in that position.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, what is your best estimate and recollection of
the time that the shooting occurred?

Mr. GREER. Well, Mr. Kellerman saying 12:30 to me makes me--that stays
in my mind foremost, and that was when we had just left the scene of
the shooting, a few seconds or a second or two from it. That is why
that 12:30 stays in my mind, him saying 12:30 to me right after the
shooting, he said. His watch may not have been correct but that is what
he said to me at the time.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance between the
point where the assassination occurred and Parkland Hospital?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I haven't. It seemed like endless miles and
probably wasn't very far, but it seemed like to me it was endless
getting there. I was----

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to give us an estimate with reasonable
accuracy on the time it took?

Mr. GREER. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. From the time it took from the point of the shooting until
you arrived at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. GREER. I didn't check anything but I thought that probably it
would probably be 6 or 8 minutes. I am not too sure, somewhere in the
vicinity of 5 and 10 minutes. I would have to guess at that.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you know which entrance of the hospital to go to?

Mr. GREER. I followed the car that was in front of me right to where he
stopped and I was right at the entrance. The car stopped and I stopped
alongside of him.

Mr. SPECTER. Which entrance was that?

Mr. GREER. It seems, I think it was the emergency entrance, I am almost
sure. It was like a bay that you could pull in and out of. It looked
like an ambulance entrance.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe with respect to President Kennedy's
condition on arrival at the Parkland Hospital?

Mr. GREER. To the best of my knowledge he was laying, it seemed across
Mrs. Kennedy, looked like laying across her lap or in front of her, I
am not too sure which, I opened the doors--the doors were opened before
I got to it, someone else had opened the doors and they were trying to
get Connally out, and Mrs. Connally out of the seats so they could get
to the President.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe about the President with respect to
his wounds?

Mr. GREER. His head was all shot, this whole part was all a matter of
blood like he had been hit.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the top and right rear side of the head?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it looked like that was all blown off.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. GREER. I run around the front of the car and got hold of a
stretcher or thing and I got hold of it to keep it steady while they
lifted the President's body onto it and then I helped pull the front
end of it into the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Who was first removed from the automobile?

Mr. GREER. Governor Connally was first removed. He was on the jump
seats.

Mr. SPECTER. And what, if anything, did you observe as to Governor
Connally's condition on arrival at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. GREER. The best of my recollection he was lying across the seat
toward Mrs. Connally when they picked him up and got him out of the
car. And he was rushed in first into the hospital. That is when I
got the stretcher to bring it, to hold it until they would get the
President on it, on the right side of the car. They took him out on the
side he was sitting on, that side of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to make any personal observation about
Governor Connally's specific wound?

Mr. GREER. No, sir. I didn't know how badly anyone really was injured.
I had great thoughts the President was still living and that was the
only thing I was thinking about was to get them in quick.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anything specific which led you to the
conclusion that the President was still living?

Mr. GREER. No, sir. When he was in the emergency room and I was there,
I did see his chest expand and move, the movement of the chest a time
or so.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe any wound on the front side of
the President?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't, I never seen any on the front side of the
President. The only thing I saw was on the head. I didn't know at the
time of any other injuries on him.

Mr. SPECTER. As to the front side of the President's body, were you
able to observe any hole or tear in either his shirt or tie?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't and I brought them back, those things,
and I didn't see them at the time. I probably didn't inspect them very
closely but they were handed to me in a paper bag to bring back.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you acquire custody and possession of those items
of clothing?

Mr. GREER. After they had made the President's body ready for removal,
I was in the emergency room, and a nurse got two shopping bags and I
held them and she put the President's suit, his belongings into the
two bags including his shoes and socks, and his pants and jacket which
they had torn and the shirt they had torn, they had torn it to take it
off him, and the nurse put these into the two bags and I got custody of
them right then from the nurse at the emergency room.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other items of wearing apparel such as
shorts or undershirt?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; his shorts and that brace he wore, whatever it
was, and his sox and shoes, and shirt, and his trousers, and his suit
coat.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state with certainty that there was no
undershirt?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; there was no undershirt. I am sure there was no
undershirt. I would have to say it to the best of my recollection,
there was no undershirt. I had been with him so many times and I knew
he didn't normally wear an undershirt because I had heard him one time
previously, I offered him a coat.

He said, "I have an undershirt on today," it was at some ballgame. He
normally didn't wear an undershirt.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe with more particularity the brace you
just said he was wearing?

Mr. GREER. It looked like a, I would say, a corset-type brace, maybe 6
inches wide, he wore it around his, down low around his, haunches, a
little lower than the waist, probably, just probably below his belt he
wore it there. It was something he normally wore, and I would guess,
but I would say it was of a soft, maybe a kind of corset-type material,
maybe elastic or something like that support.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, when your automobile arrived at Parkland, was
there any medical individual awaiting your arrival?

Mr. GREER. I can't remember--there were--who brought the stretchers
out. There were some hospital people there, but who they were, I never
got--I couldn't identify or knew who they were. There were some medical
people there; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were they when you first saw hospital personnel?

Mr. GREER. When I pulled into the ambulance entrance there were some
people there on the right-hand side with these stretchers that they had
rushed out. I don't know just who they were from the hospital staff.
There was a great deal of confusion because everyone was trying to
help, the agents were there.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to state whether there was a doctor in
attendance at that time?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't state that.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after your arrival at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. GREER. I helped pull it, take the stretcher into the emergency room
that he was on. It is on wheels, and I helped to take that in, and I
stayed inside the door of the emergency room most of the time while
they were, the doctors were, working on the President's body.

Mr. SPECTER. How many doctors were working on him in the emergency room?

Mr. GREER. There were, between nurses and doctors. I would estimate
there were, between 10 or 12 people, maybe not that many, 8 to 10
people in and out of that room. I don't know how many of them were
doctors, attendants, nurses, and things like that with white jackets
and they would come in and say, "I am doctor so-and-so."

Mr. SPECTER. How long were they working on him there in the emergency
room?

Mr. GREER. I couldn't remember the time.

Mr. SPECTER. You say you were with him most of the time?

Mr. GREER. I was inside the door. I know, I kept the door closed most
of the time, let doctors and nurses in and out while he was--while they
were working on him. I stayed inside the emergency room door.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason for you to leave part of the
time?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't go any farther away than outside the door.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other Secret Service agents inside the
emergency room at that time?

Mr. GREER. Not at that time; I was inside the door.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was Mrs. Kennedy at this time?

Mr. GREER. Mrs. Kennedy was outside the door. They got her a chair out
there for a little while and then she insisted on coming in and she got
in the corner for a little while there and stayed there a little while
and I don't quite remember the time she went over to his body but she
did go over there, and I don't remember how far along the doctors had
been on him when that happened.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to overhear any of the conversations among
the doctors in the emergency room?

Mr. GREER. I don't understand anything that they were discussing at all.

Mr. SPECTER. Did a priest or more than one priest come upon the scene?

Mr. GREER. I believe there were two. To the best of my recollection
there eventually was two.

Mr. SPECTER. How long after President Kennedy arrived at the emergency
room did the priest arrive, if you recollect?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I wouldn't have any idea, it seemed to me it was
quite a little while in the matter, probably minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did the priests stay?

Mr. GREER. I don't remember that, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they say anything on leaving or in entering?

Mr. GREER. Not that I heard of personally. I was outside the room when
the priest was in there. I wasn't in the emergency room while he was in.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you find that the President had died?

Mr. GREER. When the priest was in to give him the last rites then I
knew that.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any reasonably close estimate on when the
President did die?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I haven't right off. I would have to look at some
reports.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after the President was pronounced dead?

Mr. GREER. We stayed there until everything was settled up. I believe
there was a judge came in there and I think, someone came in and made
the decisions on removing the body and the casket was brought in, and
the body was put in the casket. I had this, his clothing, I kept it in
my hand at all times, all the time. Then I went, when they removed the
casket from the emergency room, I was in front of it going out to make
a path to get it to the ambulance.

So, I helped get it into the ambulance and then I drove a car with some
agents and some people right behind the ambulance to Love Field back to
the airport again and helped to get the casket aboard the airplane.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present at the swearing in of President Johnson?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I was--we were all asked to come back into the
state room but I wasn't in too close. I was in the main part of the
plane, as close as I could get to it, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you personally return to Washington, D.C.?

Mr. GREER. I returned on Air Force 1 with the President's remains.

Mr. SPECTER. And at approximately what time did you leave Dallas to fly
back?

Mr. GREER. I would have to look in my reports to say exactly. I would
have to go back on the times. Two something but I don't remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any idea of the time you arrived in the
Washington area?

Mr. GREER. I believe it was 6 or 6:15. As I say I have it in my reports
but I haven't looked at the times recently.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you arrive in the Washington area?

Mr. GREER. At Andrews Air Force Base.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next in connection with this matter?

Mr. GREER. I helped to get the casket out of the plane, and put it into
a Navy ambulance and then I drove that Navy ambulance to Bethesda Naval
Center.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do upon arriving at the Bethesda Naval Center?

Mr. GREER. I stayed in, while the autopsy was being performed, I stayed
in the autopsy room with Mr. Kellerman and the doctors and the people
who were in there. I stayed in there and observed what was necessary
that I could do.

Mr. SPECTER. Were any Secret Service Agents present besides you and Mr.
Kellerman?

Mr. GREER. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. At the autopsy?

Mr. GREER. There may have been, Mr. Hill may have come in and out but
he didn't stay there. Mr. Kellerman and I stayed permanently the whole
time there. There may have been, Mr. Hill may have come in there and
have gone back out but he didn't stay in there.

Mr. SPECTER. During the course of the autopsy did you hear any doctor
say anything about the wound on the right side of Mr. Kennedy's back?

Mr. GREER. That was the first time that I had ever seen it, when the
doctors were performing the autopsy, they saw this hole in the right
shoulder or back of the head, and in the back, and that was the first
I had known that he was ever shot there, and they brought it to our
attention or discussed it there a little bit.

Mr. SPECTER. What conversation was there concerning the wound on the
right back?

Mr. GREER. Well, the doctors and people who were performing the
autopsy, when they turned the body apparently over they discovered that
this wound was in the back, and they thought that they probably could
get a bullet out of there, and it took a lot of--then they took more
X-rays, they took a lot of X-rays, we looked at them and couldn't find
the trace of any bullet anywhere in the X-rays at all, nothing showed
on the X-rays where this bullet or lead could have gone.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately where in the President's back was the bullet
hole?

Mr. GREER. It was, to the best of my recollection it was, back here,
just in the soft part of that shoulder.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the upper right shoulder area?

Mr. GREER. Upper right, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any effort made to probe that wound by any
doctor?

Mr. GREER. I believe, yes, I believe the doctors probed to see if they
could find that there was a bullet there.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know which doctor that was?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I don't, I don't have their names at this time.

Mr. SPECTER. Did any doctor make any statement about the results of his
probing effort?

Mr. GREER. I questioned one of the doctors in there about that, and
when we found out that they had found a bullet in Dallas, I questioned
the doctor about it and he said if they were using pressure on the
chest that it could very well have been, come back out, where it went
in at, that is what they said at the time.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. SPECTER. Was anything said about any channel being present in the
body for the bullet to have gone on through the back?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I hadn't heard anything like that, any trace of it
going on through.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you just mention, Mr. Greer, a hole in the President's
head in addition to the large area of the skull which was shot away?

Mr. GREER. No. I had just seen that, you know, the head was damaged in
all this part of it but I believe looking at the X-rays, I looked at
the X-rays when they were taken in the autopsy room, and the person who
does that type work showed us the trace of it because there would be
little specks of lead where the bullet had come from here and it came
to the--they showed where it didn't come on through. It came to a sinus
cavity or something they said, over the eye.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right eye.

Mr. GREER. I may be wrong.

Mr. SPECTER. You don't know which eye?

Mr. GREER. I don't know which eye, I may be wrong. But they showed us
the trace of it coming through but there were very little small specks
on the X-rays that these professionals knew what course that the bullet
had taken, the lead.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe in very general terms what injury you
observed as to the President's head during the course of the autopsy?

Mr. GREER. I would--to the best of my recollection it was in this part
of the head right here.

Mr. SPECTER. Upper right?

Mr. GREER. Upper right side.

Mr. SPECTER. Upper right side, going toward the rear.

And what was the condition of the skull at that point?

Mr. GREER. The skull was completely--this part was completely gone.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, aside from that opening which you have described and
you have indicated a circle with a diameter of approximately 5 inches,
would you say that is about what you have indicated there?

Mr. GREER. Approximately I would say 5 inches; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other opening or hole of any sort in
the head itself?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't. No other one.

Mr. SPECTER. Specifically did you observe a hole which would be below
the large area of skull which was absent?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to look in the back of the head
immediately below where the skull was missing?

Mr. GREER. No; I can't remember even examining the head that close at
that time.

Mr. SPECTER. When President Kennedy was being treated in the emergency
room at Parkland Hospital, were any pictures or X-rays taken of him
there?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; not that I know of. I didn't see any being taken.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he ever turned over that you observed while being
treated at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. GREER. No, sir. I can't recollect him ever being turned over.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any recollection that he was in fact not
turned over?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't even say. I didn't see them turn him
over in any way in my vision, although my back was to him quite often
and because I was attending to the door and they could have done it.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he on a stretcher at the time he was being worked on
at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. GREER. I can't remember whether they changed him from a stretcher
to a table. I am not sure on that.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Greer, as to the return of the President's automobile
to Washington, do you know how that was accomplished?

Mr. GREER. It was driven to Love Field, and put aboard the same C-130
it was taken out on and flown back to Andrews Air Force Base.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know when it was returned from Dallas to the
Washington area?

Mr. GREER. I believe it was returned shortly after, it left shortly
after, the President's plane left, was flown back.

Mr. SPECTER. I hand you two photographs marked Commission Exhibit No.
352 and Commission Exhibit No. 353.

Do those photographs represent the condition of the back seat of the
President's car at some time?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; they do.

Mr. SPECTER. And at what time do those pictures look just as the back
seat of the President's car looked?

Mr. GREER. It looked like that when it came back from Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Did it look like that immediately after President Kennedy
was removed from the back seat?

Mr. GREER. I wasn't there any more, sir. I was with the President after
they lifted him out. I didn't see the car after he had been removed.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe the back seat of the car at any time
from the time you arrived at Parkland Hospital until you observed the
automobile in Washington?

Mr. GREER. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. On November 23?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. By the way, Mr. Greer, how much, approximately, does or
did the President's automobile weigh?

Mr. GREER. It weighed between--well, for flight reason we said 8,000,
but it wasn't that much. It probably was 7,500. We had extra weight on
it.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to tell the Commission the dimensions of the
automobile, indicating its length?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. It is 21 feet 8 inches long.

Mr. SPECTER. And how wide?

Mr. GREER. I would have to go back for the width on it. I have it all
in black and white in the office, but I haven't got it with me in my
head right now; I am sorry.

Mr. SPECTER. Could three people sit comfortably in the front seat of
the automobile?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was wide enough for three. We many times had an
aide in there; many times, an aide rode in the front.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it as wide or wider than, say, a Cadillac automobile?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; it would be probably the same width.

Representative BOGGS. Was that car specially made for the President?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; it was a specially built car.

Representative BOGGS. Was it a Lincoln Continental?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; a Lincoln Continental.

Representative BOGGS. How did it differ from the ordinary Lincoln?

Mr. GREER. Well, Lincoln doesn't make a seven-passenger car, and this
was a seven-passenger car. The back seat on this car would raise 8
inches. It was electric, and you could lift, you could raise, the seat
up 8 inches from the ground, from the floorboards. It had a little step
that went with it. The President could raise it up and down himself. He
had a button alongside that would cause it to go up and down when the
top wasn't down. It wouldn't go up and down when the top was down. But
when it was off he could raise it up or down, and it would be above the
other seat.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether the seat was actually raised at the
time of the assassination?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I couldn't say right off. I don't believe it was,
but I wouldn't know.

Mr. SPECTER. Going back to the shots themselves, Mr. Greer, do you have
any reaction as to the direction from which the shots came?

Mr. GREER. They sounded like they were behind me, to the right rear of
me.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that be as to all three shots?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. They sounded, everything sounded, behind me, to
me. That was my thought, train of thought, that they were behind me.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever had any reaction or thought at any time
since the assassination that the shots came from the front of the car?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I had never even the least thought that they could
come. There was no thought in my mind other than that they were behind
me.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Boggs, are there any questions you would like
to ask the agent?

Representative BOGGS. I don't think so, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford.

Representative FORD. Did you ever have any thought there were more than
three shots?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I never did.

Representative FORD. Did you positively identify the fact that there
were one, two, three, or was there one, and then a delay, and then a
flurry?

Mr. GREER. To the best of my recollection, Congressman, was that the
last two were closer together than the first one. It seemed like the
first one, and then there was, you know, bang, bang, just right behind
it almost. The two seemed, the last two seemed, closer to me than the
other.

Representative BOGGS. Did you speed up after you heard the first shot?

Mr. GREER. After I heard the second. The first one didn't sink into me,
didn't give me the thought that it was a shot. I thought it was the
backfire of a motorcycle. But when I heard the second one and glanced
over my shoulder, I knew something was wrong then. I didn't know how
bad anyone was injured or anything, but I knew there was something
wrong, and right away after the second one I accelerated as fast as I
could.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Craig, would you like to ask any questions?

Mr. CRAIG. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

With respect to the position of the President's car that you were
driving as it approached the underpass, you state now that you couldn't
fix any specific distance. But would you say it was less than a mile
that the President's car was from the overpass?

Mr. GREER. Oh, definitely. I couldn't say in feet or yards, but it was
within--it was feet. I would say probably a hundred or 200 feet. It
could be within that; it was definitely right up close to me, but I----

Mr. CRAIG. With respect to your vision, was it unobstructed down the
roadway, looking at the overpass?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; there were no obstructions in the road that I
could see.

Mr. CRAIG. As I recall your testimony, you were actually observing the
overpass to see if there was any person there.

Mr. GREER. People up there at that time I would be doubtful of going
underneath.

Mr. CRAIG. Yes, sir. And you say now you do not recollect that you saw
anyone there?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. CRAIG. You said also, I believe, that it was some time now since
you made that observation. Did you make any report of any kind with
respect to anyone being on the overpass immediately after this incident?

Mr. GREER. No, sir.

Mr. CRAIG. You made no written report to anybody as to whether or not
there were people on the overpass or were not people?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I haven't.

Mr. CRAIG. Do you believe if you had observed people on the overpass at
that time you would now remember it?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir; I believe I would; yes, sir.

Mr. CRAIG. If you had observed people on the overpass as you proceeded
toward it, and they were other than a policeman or policemen or some
other law-enforcement agent, what would you have done?

Mr. GREER. Well, I try never to go underneath a bridge if there
are people up over it, if there are people who I don't know as law
enforcement. I try not to go underneath them. I will probably veer to
one side of them at any time. That is a matter of our training, that
we try not to go underneath anyone with an open car where anyone could
drop something.

Mr. CRAIG. Would you ever stop, if necessary, if you thought there were
people up there that you couldn't veer around?

Mr. GREER. If there was any danger there I would have to either change
my way of traveling. I have never had it happen, and never had any
reason to, but we try, I try, not to go underneath a group of people
standing on any overpass at any time. I try to move over, if the
condition permits me to. Sometimes, when the road is too narrow, I
couldn't. But that is part of our procedure, I think, to see that no
one is on an overpass.

Mr. CRAIG. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. If there are no further questions----

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, may I ask one or two other questions?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. I have just noted that we have the report of the FBI which
bears Bureau file No. 105-S, as it appears here somewhat indistinct,
S-2555, "Report of Special Agent Robert P. Gemberling, dated December
10, 1963," and this refers, Mr. Greer, to an interview of you by
Special Agents Francis X. O'Neill, Jr., and James W. Sibert. There is
a report here of an interview of you and of Special Agent Kellerman,
and the date here is listed as November 22, 1963, and there is this
reference made in the report, and I will quote it verbatim:

"Greer stated that he first heard what he thought was possibly a
motorcycle backfire, and glanced around and noticed that the President
had evidently been hit. He thereafter got on the radio and communicated
with the other vehicles stating that they desired to get the President
to the hospital immediately."

Mr. GREER. I didn't go on the radio. It was Mr. Kellerman who done the
radio talking. I didn't. It is a misquote if I done it. I didn't get on
the radio. Mr. Kellerman did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever make this statement, Mr. Greer, to Special
Agent O'Neill or Sibert?

Mr. GREER. Those two agents were in during the autopsy; those two
agents were in the autopsy room, with Mr. Kellerman and I, all night.
Mr. Sibert and O'Neill were both in the autopsy room with us during
that time, and the only time that any of us, either Mr. Kellerman or I,
we never left the room, one or the other. We went and got some coffee
and came right back, something like that, and the FBI did the same
thing. One of them left; the other stayed.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you now recollect whether or not you ever said to them
that you were the one who communicated on the radio with the other
vehicles?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I know I never remember saying that to them because
I know I didn't do it. So that is how I know that I didn't say it,
because I know I didn't do it. Mr. Kellerman did.

Mr. SPECTER. And the first part refers to your noticing that the
President evidently had been hit. Did you ever----

Mr. GREER. I have no recollection of ever telling the agents that I
said that; no, sir. If I said it, I don't remember saying it. The
Governor was the person that I knew was--when we were first in trouble,
when I see the Governor.

Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your current recollection, did you notice
that the President had been hit?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I didn't know how badly he was injured or anything
other than that. I didn't know.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you know at all, from the glance which you have
described that he had been hit or injured in any way?

Mr. GREER. I knew he was injured in some way, but I didn't know how bad
or what.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you know that?

Mr. GREER. If I remember now, I just don't remember how I knew, but
I knew we were in trouble. I knew that he was injured, but I can't
remember, recollect, just how I knew there were injuries in there. I
didn't know who all was hurt, even.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to recollect whether you saw the President
after the shots as you were proceeding toward Parkland Hospital?

Mr. GREER. No; I don't remember ever seeing him any more until I got to
the hospital, and he was lying across the seat, you know, and that is
the first I had seen of him.

Mr. SPECTER. Your best recollection is, then, that you had the
impression he was injured but you couldn't ascertain the source of that
information?

Mr. GREER. Right. I couldn't ascertain the source.

Representative FORD. Did you hear the President say anything after the
first shot?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; I never heard him say anything; never at any time
did I ever hear him say anything.

Representative BOGGS. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything to you while you
were driving to the hospital?

Mr. GREER. No, sir; she didn't.

Representative BOGGS. Did Mrs. Connally say anything to you?

Mr. GREER. No. Mrs. Connally didn't say anything, either. There is
quite a little distance between the front and the back seat of that
car. As you know, it is 21 feet long, and you are quite a little bit
away, and there was the sirens were all going. The following car had a
siren wide--the big one on the fender was wide open. There wasn't much
chance for me to hear anything, and I was really occupied with getting
there just as fast as I could and not seeing that anything happened,
avoid an accident or anything like that.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a siren on your car?

Mr. GREER. I didn't have mine going. There is a siren on that car, but
I didn't even reach down to work it.

Representative BOGGS. There was another agent in the car with you?

Mr. GREER. Mr. Kellerman; yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. And after the first shot, did he say to speed up
or what?

Mr. GREER. I believe it was at the second that he and I both
simultaneously--he said, "Get out of here fast," and I speeded up as
fast as I could then and as fast as the car would go.

The CHAIRMAN. If there are no further questions, thank you very much,
Mr. Greer.

Mr. GREER. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be excused.

Mr. GREER. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. We will take a short recess.

(Short recess.)

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Hill, come right in, sir. Would you raise your right
hand, please, and be sworn? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony
you give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HILL. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you be seated, please, Mr. Hill?

Mr. HILL. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter.


TESTIMONY OF CLINTON J. HILL, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Hill, would you state your full name for the record,
please?

Mr. HILL. Clinton J. Hill.

Mr. SPECTER. How old are you, sir?

Mr. HILL. Thirty-two.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background?

Mr. HILL. I went to secondary educational high school in Washburn, N.
Dak., and then went on to Concordia College, Moorehead, Minn. I was a
history and education major, with a minor in physical education.

Mr. SPECTER. What year were you graduated?

Mr. HILL. 1954.

Mr. SPECTER. What have you done since the time of graduation from
college, Mr. Hill?

Mr. HILL. I went into the Army in 1954; remained in the Army until
1957. Then I couldn't determine what I wanted to do, whether to go
to law school or not, and I took a couple of odd jobs. I worked for
a finance company at one time. Then I went to work for the Chicago,
Burlington & Quincy Railroad as a special agent in the spring of 1958,
and entered the Secret Service in September 1958.

Mr. SPECTER. You have been with the Secret Service since September 1958
to the present time?

Mr. HILL. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline for the Commission your duties with the
Secret Service during your tenure there?

Mr. HILL. I entered the Secret Service in Denver, and during that
period I did both investigative and protection work. I was assigned to
Mrs. Doud, the mother-in-law of President Eisenhower. I attended the
Treasury Law Enforcement School during my first year, and was sent to
the White House for a 30-day temporary assignment at the White House in
June 1959. In November of 1959, November 1, I was transferred to the
White House on a permanent basis as a special agent assigned to the
White House detail. I have been at the White House since that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you assigned to duties on the trip of President
Kennedy to Texas in November 1963?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any special duty assigned to you at that time?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. In connection with the trip?

Mr. HILL. I was responsible for the protection of Mrs. Kennedy.

Mr. SPECTER. And, in a general way, what does that sort of an
assignment involve?

Mr. HILL. I tried to remain as close to her at all times as possible,
and in this particular trip that meant being with the President because
all of their doings on this trip were together rather than separate. I
would go over her schedule to make sure she knows what she is expected
to do; discuss it with her; remain in her general area all the time;
protect her from any danger.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us, in a general way, what were the
activities of the President and Mrs. Kennedy on the morning of Friday,
November 22, before they arrived in Dallas?

Mr. HILL. I went to the fifth floor, I believe it was, where the
President and Mrs. Kennedy were staying in the Texas Hotel in Fort
Worth at 8:15 in the morning. President Kennedy was to go downstairs
and across the street to make a speech to a gathering in a parking lot.
I remained on the floor during the period the President was gone.

It was raining outside, I recall. About 9:25 I received word from
Special Agent Duncan that the President requested Mrs. Kennedy to come
to the mezzanine, where a breakfast was being held in his honor, and
where he was about to speak. I went in and advised Mrs. Kennedy of
this, and took her down to where the President was speaking; remained
with her adjacent to the head table in this particular area during the
speech; and accompanied she and the President back up to the, I believe
it was, the fifth floor of the hotel, their residential area; remained
on that floor until we left, went downstairs, got into the motorcade,
and departed the hotel for the airport to leave Fort Worth for Dallas.

We were airborne approximately 11:20, I believe, in Air Force 1. I was
in the aft compartment, which is part of the residential compartment,
and we arrived in Dallas at 11:40.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe, in a general way, what the President
and Mrs. Kennedy did upon arrival in Dallas?

Mr. HILL. They debarked the rear ramp of the aircraft first, followed
by Governor and Mrs. Connally, various Congressmen and Senators. And
Special Agent in Charge Kellerman and myself went down the ramp. There
was a small reception committee at the foot of the ramp, and somebody
gave Mrs. Kennedy some red roses, I recall. I walked immediately to
the followup car and placed my topcoat, which is a raincoat, and small
envelope containing some information concerning the Dallas stop in the
followup car, returning to where the President and Mrs. Kennedy were at
that time greeting a crippled lady in a wheelchair.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you estimate the size of the crowd to have been at
Dallas that morning?

Mr. HILL. At the airport?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HILL. It is rather difficult to say. They were behind a chain-link
fence, not on the airport ramp itself, and they were jammed up against
the fence holding placards, and many young people in the crowd. I
would say there were probably 2,000 people there.

Mr. SPECTER. At approximately what time did the motorcade depart from
Love Field to Dallas?

Mr. HILL. Approximately 11:55.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know approximately how many automobiles there were
in the motorcade?

Mr. HILL. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. In which car in the motorcade were you positioned?

Mr. HILL. I was working the followup car, which is the car immediately
behind the Presidential car.

Mr. SPECTER. And how many cars are there ahead of the followup car,
then, in the entire motorcade?

Mr. HILL. There was a lead car ahead of the President's car, the
President's car, then this particular followup car.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether there was any car in advance of the
car termed the lead car?

Mr. HILL. There could have been a pilot car, but I am not sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, approximately how far in front of the President's car
did the lead car stay during the course of the motorcade?

Mr. HILL. I would say a half block, maybe.

Mr. SPECTER. And how far was the President's car in front of the
President's followup car during the course of the motorcade?

Mr. HILL. Approximately 5 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there some well-established practice as to the spacing
between the President's car and the President's followup car?

Mr. HILL. It would depend upon speed. We attempt to stay as close to
the President's car as practical. At high rates of speed it is rather
difficult to stay close because of the danger involved. Slow speeds,
the followup car stays as close as possible so that the agents on the
followup car can get to the Presidential car as quickly as possible.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the first car to the rear of the President's
followup car?

Mr. HILL. The Vice-Presidential automobile.

Mr. SPECTER. What car was immediately behind the Vice President's
automobile?

Mr. HILL. The Vice-Presidential followup car.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what cars in the Dallas motorcade followed the
Vice President's followup car?

Mr. HILL. Well, I couldn't say which car any individual rode in after
that particular automobile, but I could say they were occupied by
members of the staff, both President Kennedy's and Vice President
Johnson's; Congressmen and Senators who were on this particular trip;
newspaper personnel who were on this trip.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you identify the occupants of the President's
followup car and indicate where each was in the automobile.

Mr. HILL. The car itself was driven by Special Agent Sam Kinney, and
Assistant to the Special Agent in Charge Emory Roberts was riding in
the right front seat. I was assigned to work the left running board of
the automobile, the forward portion of that running board. McIntyre was
assigned to work the rear portion of the left running board. Special
Agent John Ready was assigned the forward portion of the right running
board; Special Agent Paul Landis was assigned the rear portion of the
right running board. There were two jump seats, and they were occupied
by two Presidential aides, Mr. O'Donnell and Mr. Powers. Mr. Powers
was sitting on the right-hand side; Mr. O'Donnell on the left. The
rear seat was occupied, left rear by Special Agent Hickey, right rear,
Special Agent Bennett.

Mr. SPECTER. How were the agents armed at that time?

Mr. HILL. All the agents were armed with their hand weapons.

Mr. SPECTER. And is there any weapon in the automobile in addition to
the hand weapons?

Mr. HILL. Yes. There is an AR-15, which is an automatic rifle, and a
shotgun.

Mr. SPECTER. And where is the AR-15 kept?

Mr. HILL. Between the two agents in the rear seat.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the shotgun; where is that kept?

Mr. HILL. In a compartment immediately in front of the jump seats.

Mr. SPECTER. Is the President's followup car a specially constructed
automobile?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the make and model and general description of
that vehicle?

Mr. HILL. It is a 1955 Cadillac, nine-passenger touring sedan. It is a
convertible type.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that automobile flown in specially from Washington for
the occasion?

Mr. HILL. Yes; it was, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how that automobile was transported to Dallas,
Tex.?

Mr. HILL. Generally, it is flown in a C-130 by the Air Force. I am not
sure how on this particular occasion.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe, in a general way, the composition of
the crowds en route from Love Field down to the center of Dallas,
please?

Mr. HILL. Well, when we left Love Field, we went away from the crowd
to get to the exit point at Love Field, and there were no crowds at
all, and then we, departing Love Field, found the crowds were sporadic.
There were people here and there. Some places they had built up and
other places they were thinned out. The speed of the motorcade was
adjusted accordingly. Whenever there were large groups of people,
the motorcade slowed down to give the people an opportunity to view
the President. When there were not many people along the side of the
street, we speeded up. We didn't really hit the crowds until we hit
Main Street.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the maximum speed of the
automobile from the time you left Love Field until the time you arrived
at downtown Dallas?

Mr. HILL. I would say we never ran any faster than 25 to 30 miles per
hour.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the minimum speed during
this same interval?

Mr. HILL. Twelve to fifteen miles per hour. We did stop.

Mr. SPECTER. On what occasion did you stop?

Mr. HILL. Between Love Field and Main Street, downtown Dallas, on the
right-hand side of the street there were a group of people with a long
banner which said, "Please, Mr. President, stop and shake our hands."
And the President requested the motorcade to stop, and he beckoned to
the people and asked them to come and shake his hand, which they did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the President disembark from his automobile at that
time?

Mr. HILL. No; he remained in his seat.

Mr. SPECTER. At that time what action, if any, did you take?

Mr. HILL. I jumped from the followup car and ran up to the left rear
portion of the automobile with my back toward Mrs. Kennedy viewing
those persons on the left-hand side of the street.

Mr. SPECTER. What action was taken by any other Secret Service agent
which you observed at that time?

Mr. HILL. Special Agent Ready, who was working the forward portion of
the right running board, did the same thing, only on the President's
side, placed his back toward the car, and viewed the people facing
the President. Assistant in Charge Kellerman opened the door of the
President's car and stepped out on the street.

Mr. SPECTER. What action was taken by Special Agent McIntyre, if you
know?

Mr. HILL. I do not know.

Mr. SPECTER. How about Special Agent Landis?

Mr. HILL. I do not know.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your normal procedure for action in the event the
President's car is stopped, as it did in that event?

Mr. HILL. Special Agent McIntyre would normally jump off the car and
run to the forward portion of the left-hand side of the car; Special
Agent Landis would move to the right-hand forward portion of the
automobile.

Mr. SPECTER. Did anything else which was unusual occur en route from
Love Field to the downtown area of Dallas?

Mr. HILL. Before we hit Main Street?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. HILL. Not that I recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to leave the President's
followup car at any time?

Mr. HILL. When we finally did reach Main Street, the crowds had
built up to a point where they were surging into the street. We had
motorcycles running adjacent to both the Presidential automobile and
the followup car, as well as in front of the Presidential automobile,
and because of the crowds in the street, the President's driver,
Special Agent Greer, was running the car more to the left-hand side of
the street more than he was to the right to keep the President as far
away from the crowd as possible, and because of this the motorcycles on
the left-hand side could not get past the crowd and alongside the car,
and they were forced to drop back. I jumped from the followup car, ran
up and got on top of the rear portion of the Presidential automobile to
be close to Mrs. Kennedy in the event that someone attempted to grab
her from the crowd or throw something in the car.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say the rear portion of the automobile, can you,
by referring to Commission Exhibit No. 345, heretofore identified as
the President's automobile, specify by penciled "X" where you stood?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir [indicating].

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe for the record just what area it is back
there on which you stood?

Mr. HILL. That is a step built into the rear bumper of the automobile,
and on top of the rear trunk there is a handguard which you grab for
and hang onto when you are standing up.

Mr. SPECTER. Are identical objects of those descriptions existing on
each side of the President's car?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; they do.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any other occasion en route from Love Field
to downtown Dallas to leave the followup car and mount that portion of
the President's car?

Mr. HILL. I did the same thing approximately four times.

Mr. SPECTER. What are the standard regulations and practices, if any,
governing such an action on your part?

Mr. HILL. It is left to the agent's discretion more or less to move to
that particular position when he feels that there is a danger to the
President; to place himself as close to the President or the First Lady
as my case was, as possible, which I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Are those practices specified in any written documents of
the Secret Service?

Mr. HILL. No; they are not.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, had there been any instruction or comment about
your performance of that type of a duty with respect to anything that
President Kennedy himself had said in the period immediately preceding
the trip to Texas?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; there was. The preceding Monday, the President was
on a trip in Tampa, Fla., and he requested that the agents not ride on
either of those two steps.

Mr. SPECTER. And to whom did the President make that request?

Mr. HILL. Assistant Special Agent in Charge Boring.

Mr. SPECTER. Was Assistant Special Agent in Charge Boring the
individual in charge of that trip to Florida?

Mr. HILL. He was riding in the Presidential automobile on that trip in
Florida, and I presume that he was. I was not along.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, on that occasion would he have been in a position
comparable to that occupied by Special Agent Kellerman on this trip to
Texas?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; the same position.

Mr. SPECTER. And Special Agent Boring informed you of that instruction
by President Kennedy?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he make it a point to inform other special agents of
that same instruction?

Mr. HILL. I believe that he did, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And, as a result of what President Kennedy said to him,
did he instruct you to observe that Presidential admonition?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How, if at all, did that instruction of President Kennedy
affect your action and--your action in safeguarding him on this trip to
Dallas?

Mr. HILL. We did not ride on the rear portions of the automobile. I did
on those four occasions because the motorcycles had to drop back and
there was no protection on the left-hand side of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. When the President's automobile was proceeding in downtown
Dallas, what was the ordinary speed of the automobile, based on your
best estimate?

Mr. HILL. We were running approximately 12 to 15 miles per hour, I
would say.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a document which we have marked as Commission
Exhibit No. 354, which is an aerial photograph identical with the
photograph already marked as Commission Exhibit No. 347.

(The photograph referred to was marked Exhibit No. 354 for
identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. I ask you if, referring only to Exhibit 354, you are able
to identify what that scene is.

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to indicate the route which the President's
motorcade followed through that area?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I am.

Mr. SPECTER. And what does that scene depict--what city is it?

Mr. HILL. That is Dallas, Tex. It shows Main Street, Houston Street,
and Elm Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you write on the picture itself where Main Street is?
Would you now write, as best you can, which street is Houston Street?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you now write which street is Elm?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you indicate, if you know, which is a generally
northerly direction on that picture?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. What was the condition of the crowd as the
motorcade made a right-hand turn off of Main Street onto Houston?

Mr. HILL. The crowd was very large on Main Street, and it was thinning
down considerably when we reached the end of it, and turned right
on Houston Street. Noticeably on my side of the car, which was the
left-hand side of the street.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your best estimate as to the speed of the
President's car at the time it made the right-hand turn onto Houston
Street?

Mr. HILL. In the curve?

Mr. SPECTER. The speed--in the curve itself; yes.

Mr. HILL. We were running generally 12 to 15 miles per hour. I would
say that in the curve we perhaps slowed to maybe 10 miles per hour.

Mr. SPECTER. And how far behind the President's car was the
Presidential followup car as the turn was made onto Houston Street?

Mr. HILL. Four to five feet, at the most.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph of a building which has already
been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 348, and ask you if at this time
you can identify what that building is.

Mr. HILL. I believe I can, sir; yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what building is it?

Mr. HILL. It is the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, does that building appear on the Commission Exhibit
No. 354?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to notice the Texas School Book
Depository Building as you proceeded in a generally northerly direction
on Houston Street?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. It was immediately in front of us and to our left.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice anything unusual about it?

Mr. HILL. Nothing more unusual than any other building along the way.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your general practice, if any, in observing such
buildings along the route of a Presidential motorcade?

Mr. HILL. We scan the buildings and look specifically for open windows,
for people hanging out, and there had been, on almost every building
along the way, people hanging out, windows open.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you observe, as you recollect at this moment, any
open windows in the Texas School Depository Building?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; there were.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to recollect specifically which windows were
open at this time?

Mr. HILL. No, sir; I cannot.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the condition of the crowd along the streets, if
any, along Elm Street, in front of the Texas School Book Depository
Building?

Mr. HILL. On the left-hand side of the street, which is the side I was
on, the crowd was very thin. And it was a general park area. There were
people scattered throughout the entire park.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what is your best estimate of the speed of the
President's automobile as it turned left off of Houston onto Elm Street?

Mr. HILL. We were running still 12 to 15 miles per hour, but in the
curve I believe we slowed down maybe to 10, maybe to 9.

Mr. SPECTER. How far back of the President's automobile was the
Presidential followup car when the President's followup car had just
straightened out on Elm Street?

Mr. HILL. Approximately 5 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as the motorcade proceeded at that point, tell us
what happened.

Mr. HILL. Well, as we came out of the curve, and began to straighten
up, I was viewing the area which looked to be a park. There were people
scattered throughout the entire park. And I heard a noise from my right
rear, which to me seemed to be a firecracker. I immediately looked
to my right, and, in so doing, my eyes had to cross the Presidential
limousine and I saw President Kennedy grab at himself and lurch forward
and to the left.

Mr. SPECTER. Why don't you just proceed, in narrative form, to tell us?

Representative BOGGS. This was the first shot?

Mr. HILL. This is the first sound that I heard; yes, sir. I jumped from
the car, realizing that something was wrong, ran to the Presidential
limousine. Just about as I reached it, there was another sound,
which was different than the first sound. I think I described it in
my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard
object--it seemed to have some type of an echo. I put my right foot, I
believe it was, on the left rear step of the automobile, and I had a
hold of the handgrip with my hand, when the car lurched forward. I lost
my footing and I had to run about three or four more steps before I
could get back up in the car.

Between the time I originally grabbed the handhold and until I was up
on the car, Mrs. Kennedy--the second noise that I heard had removed a
portion of the President's head, and he had slumped noticeably to his
left. Mrs. Kennedy had jumped up from the seat and was, it appeared to
me, reaching for something coming off the right rear bumper of the
car, the right rear tail, when she noticed that I was trying to climb
on the car. She turned toward me and I grabbed her and put her back in
the back seat, crawled up on top of the back seat and lay there.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, referring to Commission Exhibit No. 354, would
you mark an "X", as best you can, at the spot where the President's
automobile was at the time the first shot occurred?

Mr. HILL. Approximately there.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you mark a "Y" at the approximate position where
the President's car was at the second shot you have described? What is
your best estimate of the speed of the President's car at the precise
time of the first shot, Mr. Hill?

Mr. HILL. We were running between 12 to 15 miles per hour, but no
faster than 15 miles per hour.

Mr. SPECTER. How many shots have you described that you heard?

Mr. HILL. Two.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear any more than two shots?

Mr. HILL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your best estimate of the speed of the
President's automobile at the time of the second shot?

Mr. HILL. Approximately the same speed as that of the first--although
at the time that I jumped on the car, the car had surged forward. The
President at that time had been shot in the head.

Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did the car
accelerate--that is, the President's car?

Mr. HILL. Almost simultaneously.

Mr. SPECTER. You testified just a moment ago that the President grabbed
at himself immediately after the first noise which you described as
sounding like a firecracker.

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us with more particularity in what way he
grabbed at himself?

Mr. HILL. He grabbed in this general area.

Mr. SPECTER. You are indicating that your right hand is coming up to
your--to the throat?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And the left hand crosses right under the right hand.

Mr. HILL. To the chest area.

Mr. SPECTER. To the chest area. Was there any movement of the
President's head or shoulders immediately after the first shot, that
you recollect?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. Immediately when I saw him, he was like this, and
going left and forward.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a little fall to the left front.

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. This was after a head wound?

Mr. HILL. No, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Before the head wound?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; this was the first shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what is your best estimate on the timespan between
the first firecracker-type noise you heard and the second shot which
you have described?

Mr. HILL. Approximately 5 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did the impact on the President's head occur
simultaneously, before, or after the second noise which you have
described?

Mr. HILL. Almost simultaneously.

Representative FORD. Did you see the President put his hands to his
throat and chest while you were still on the followup car, or after you
had left it?

Mr. HILL. As I was leaving. And that is one of the reasons I jumped,
because I saw him grab himself and pitch forward and to the left. I
knew something was wrong.

Representative FORD. It was 5 seconds from the firecracker noise that
you think you got to the automobile?

Mr. HILL. Until I reached the handhold, had placed my foot on the left
rear step.

Mr. SPECTER. When, in relationship to the second shot, did Mrs. Kennedy
move out of the rear seat?

Mr. HILL. Just after it.

Mr. SPECTER. You say that it appeared that she was reaching as if
something was coming over to the rear portion of the car, back in the
area where you were coming to?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything back there that you observed, that she
might have been reaching for?

Mr. HILL. I thought I saw something come off the back, too, but I
cannot say that there was. I do know that the next day we found the
portion of the President's head.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you find that portion of the President's head?

Mr. HILL. It was found in the street. It was turned in, I believe, by a
medical student or somebody in Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any difficulty maintaining your balance on
the back of the car after you had come up on the top of it?

Mr. HILL. Not until we turned off to enter the Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what action did you take specifically with respect to
placing Mrs. Kennedy back in the rear seat?

Mr. HILL. I simply just pushed and she moved--somewhat
voluntarily--right back into the same seat she was in. The
President--when she had attempted to get out onto the trunk of the car,
his body apparently did not move too much, because when she got back
into the car he was at that time, when I got on top of the car, face up
in her lap.

Mr. SPECTER. And that was after she was back in the rear seat?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were the President's legs at that time?

Mr. HILL. Inside the car.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what, if anything, did you observe as to the
condition of Governor Connally at that time?

Mr. HILL. After going under this underpass, I looked forward to the
jump seats, where Mrs. Connally and Governor Connally were sitting.
Mrs. Connally had been leaning over her husband. And I had no idea that
he had been shot. And when she leaned back at one time, I noticed that
his coat was unbuttoned, and that the lower portion of his abdomen was
completely covered with blood.

Mr. SPECTER. When was it that you first observed that?

Mr. HILL. Just after going under the underpass.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe anything which was occurring on
the overpass as the President's motorcade moved toward the overpass?

Mr. HILL. From the time I got on the back of the Presidential
limousine, I didn't really pay any attention to what was going on
outside the automobile.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you noticed the overpass prior to the time you got on
the Presidential automobile?

Mr. HILL. Yes; I had scanned it.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you recollect what, if anything, you observed on
the overpass at that time?

Mr. HILL. There were some people there, but I also noticed there was a
policeman there.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how many people would you say were there?

Mr. HILL. Very few, I would say--maybe five, six.

Mr. SPECTER. And how were you able to identify that there was a
policeman there?

Mr. HILL. He was wearing the uniform--presumably a policeman.

Mr. SPECTER. What color uniform was it?

Mr. HILL. I think it was blue of some shade.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you identify it at that time as being of the identical
color which other Dallas policemen were wearing whom you had observed
in the area?

Mr. HILL. That's correct, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you characterize the type of acceleration which the
car made after it started to speed forward--that is, the Presidential
car.

Mr. HILL. Well, the initial surge was quite violent, because it
almost jerked me off the left rear step board. Then after that it was
apparently gradual, because I did not notice it any more.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance from the time
of the shooting to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. HILL. In time or----

Mr. SPECTER. Time and distance.

Mr. HILL. Distance, I have no idea.

Mr. SPECTER. How about time?

Mr. HILL. I would say roughly 4 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy say anything as you were proceeding from
the time of the shooting to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. HILL. At the time of the shooting, when I got into the rear of the
car, she said, "My God, they have shot his head off." Between there and
the hospital she just said, "Jack, Jack, what have they done to you,"
and sobbed.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any conversation by anybody else in the
President's automobile from the time of the shooting to the arrival at
Parkland Hospital?

Mr. HILL. I heard Special Agent Kellerman say on the radio, "To the
nearest hospital, quick."

Mr. SPECTER. Any other comment?

Mr. HILL. He said, "We have been hit."

Mr. SPECTER. Now, was there any other comment you heard Special Agent
Kellerman make?

Mr. HILL. Not that I recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Special Agent Greer say anything?

Mr. HILL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Connally say anything?

Mr. HILL. No, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Was Governor Connally conscious?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Governor Connally say anything?

Mr. HILL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did President Kennedy say anything?

Mr. HILL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate on the speed at which the
President's car traveled from the point of the shooting to Parkland
Hospital?

Mr. HILL. It is a little bit hard for me to judge, since I was lying
across the rear portion of the automobile. I had no trouble staying in
that particular position--until we approached the hospital, I recall,
I believe it was a left-hand turn and I started slipping off to the
right-hand portion of the car. So I would say that we went 60, maybe 65
at the most.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to secure a handhold or a leg-hold or any
sort of a hold on the automobile as you moved forward?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. I had my legs--I had my body above the rear seat,
and my legs hooked down into the rear seat, one foot outside the car.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the time of the
assassination itself?

Mr. HILL. Approximately 12:30.

Mr. SPECTER. I am not sure whether I asked you about this--about how
long did it take you to get from the shooting to the hospital?

Mr. HILL. Approximately 4 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe as to President Kennedy's condition
on arrival at the hospital?

Mr. HILL. The right rear portion of his head was missing. It was lying
in the rear seat of the car. His brain was exposed. There was blood and
bits of brain all over the entire rear portion of the car. Mrs. Kennedy
was completely covered with blood. There was so much blood you could
not tell if there had been any other wound or not, except for the one
large gaping wound in the right rear portion of the head.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any opportunity to observe the front part of
his body, to see whether there was any tear or rip in the clothing on
the front?

Mr. HILL. I saw him lying there in the back of the car, when I was
immediately above him. I cannot recall noticing anything that was
ripped in the forward portion of his body.

Mr. SPECTER. What action, if any, did you take to shield the
President's body?

Mr. HILL. I kept myself above the President and Mrs. Kennedy on the
trip to Parkland.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you do anything with your coat upon arrival at
Parkland Hospital to shield the President?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. I removed it and covered the President's head and
upper chest.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe as to Governor
Connally's condition on arrival at Parkland?

Mr. HILL. He was conscious. There was a large amount of blood in
the lower abdominal area. He was helped from the automobile to the
stretcher, and I do not recall him saying anything, but I know that he
was conscious. He was wheeled immediately into, I think, emergency room
No. 2.

Mr. SPECTER. And who was removed first from the automobile?

Mr. HILL. Governor Connally.

Mr. SPECTER. How long after the President's car arrived at Parkland
Hospital did medical personnel come to the scene to remove the victims?

Mr. HILL. Seconds. They were there when we were there almost--almost
simultaneously with the arrival.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know where President Kennedy was taken in the
hospital?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir. I accompanied he, and Mrs. Kennedy to the emergency
room.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, tell us what you did at the hospital from the time of
arrival on, please.

Mr. HILL. I went into the emergency room with the President, but it
was so small, and there were so many people in there that I decided I
had better leave and let the doctors take care of the situation. So I
walked outside; asked for the nearest telephone; walked to the nearest
telephone. About that time Special Agent in Charge Kellerman came
outside and said, "Get the White House."

I asked Special Agent Lawson for the local number in Dallas of the
White House switchboard, which he gave to me. I called the switchboard
in Dallas; asked for the line to be open to Washington, and remain
open continuously. And then I asked for Special Agent in Charge Behn's
office. Mr. Kellerman came out of the emergency room about that time,
took the telephone and called Special Agent in Charge Behn that we
had had a double tragedy; that both Governor Connally and President
Kennedy had been shot. And that was about as much as he said. I then
took the telephone and shortly thereafter Mr. Kellerman came out of the
emergency room and said, "Clint, tell Jerry this is unofficial and not
for release, but the man is dead." Which I did. During the two calls,
I talked to the Attorney General, who attempted to reach me, and told
him that his brother had been seriously wounded; that we would keep him
advised as to his condition.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was Mrs. Kennedy all this time, if you know?

Mr. HILL. Immediately upon arrival, she went into the emergency room.
And a few minutes afterward, she was convinced to wait outside, which
she did, remained there the rest of the period of time that we were
there.

Mr. SPECTER. And was there any pronouncement that the President had
died?

Mr. HILL. Not that I know of. Apparently there was. I was requested by
Mr. O'Donnell, one of the Presidential assistants, to obtain a casket,
because they wanted to return to Washington immediately. I contacted
the administrator of the hospital and asked him to take me where I
could telephone the nearest mortuary, which I did, requested that their
best available casket be brought to the emergency entrance in my name
immediately.

Mr. SPECTER. And what action was taken as a result of that request by
you?

Mr. HILL. The casket did arrive from the O'Neal Mortuary, Inc., in
their own hearse, which we then wheeled into the emergency room. I
left the emergency room and asked that two of our agents, Special
Agent Sulliman and Assistant Special Agent in Charge Stout clear all
the corridors, and I checked the closest and most immediate route to
the ambulance. We took the body from the hospital and departed the
Parkland Hospital about 2:04 p.m. The ambulance was driven by Special
Agent Berger. Special Agent in Charge Kellerman and Assistant Special
Agent In Charge Stout were riding in the front seat; Mrs. Kennedy, Dr.
Burkley, the President's body, and myself rode in the rear portion of
the ambulance.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did it take you to reach the
airplane at Love Field?

Mr. HILL. We arrived at Love Field at 2:14.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you present during the swearing-in ceremonies of
President Johnson?

Mr. HILL. I was aboard the aircraft; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you witness those ceremonies?

Mr. HILL. Well, the Presidential compartment was so small that not all
persons on the aircraft could get in. I was in the forward portion of
the aircraft, right adjacent to the area that the President was sworn
in.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the time of the swearing in?

Mr. HILL. 2:38.

Mr. SPECTER. And what time did the Presidential aircraft depart?

Mr. HILL. 2:47.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what time it arrived in the Washington area?

Mr. HILL. 5:59, I believe, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did it land?

Mr. HILL. We landed at Andrews Air Force Base.

Mr. SPECTER. And what action, if any, in connection with this matter
did you take following landing?

Mr. HILL. I assisted Mrs. Kennedy and the Attorney General, who had
joined her at that time, into the ambulance bearing the President's
body, and I entered the automobile immediately behind the ambulance
with Dr. John Walsh, Mrs. Kennedy's physician, and members of President
Kennedy's staff.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you go then?

Mr. HILL. Immediately to Bethesda Naval Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you stay with the President's family at that time?

Mr. HILL. When we arrived there, I went to the 17th floor with Mrs.
Kennedy, and I remained with Mrs. Kennedy except for one time when I
was requested to come to the morgue to view the President's body.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you view the President's body?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What action did you take following the time you viewed the
President's body in the morgue?

Mr. HILL. After the viewing of the President's body?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. HILL. I returned to the 17th floor and remained with Mrs. Kennedy
until we departed the hospital.

Representative BOGGS. May I ask a question? At the hospital in Texas,
you had seen--had you seen the whole body, or just the back of the
President's head?

Mr. HILL. I had seen the whole body, but he was still cold when I saw
him.

Representative BOGGS. At the morgue in Bethesda he was not cold?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; the autopsy had been completed, and the Lawler
Mortuary Co. was preparing the body for placement in a casket.

Representative BOGGS. At this time did you see the whole body?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir.

Representative BOGGS. Did you see any other wound other than the head
wound?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; I saw an opening in the back, about 6 inches below
the neckline to the right-hand side of the spinal column.

Representative BOGGS. Was there a frontal neck injury?

Mr. HILL. There was an area here that had been opened but----

Mr. SPECTER. You are indicating----

Mr. HILL. In the neck. It was my understanding at that time that this
was done by a tracheotomy.

Mr. SPECTER. What else, if anything, of importance did you do between
the time you viewed the body in the morgue until the termination of
your duties on that date, Mr. Hill?

Mr. HILL. We handled all communications on the 17th floor, up to the
17th floor, for Mrs. Kennedy, members of her family, Cabinet members
who were there at that time, and secured the 17th floor for all
personnel. No one was permitted there that we did not know.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you leave the 17th floor?

Mr. HILL. I believe, sir, it was 3:56, but I am not sure of the exact
time.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go from there?

Mr. HILL. We went downstairs to the rear of the hospital, where
the body was placed in a naval ambulance. I entered an automobile
immediately behind the ambulance. Mrs. Kennedy and the Attorney General
got into the rear of the ambulance with the body.

Mr. SPECTER. And from there, where did you go?

Mr. HILL. I accompanied them to the White House.

Mr. SPECTER. And did that mark the termination of your duties for that
day?

Mr. HILL. No, sir. I remained on duty until approximately 6:30 in the
morning; went home, changed clothes, and came back.

Mr. SPECTER. I believe you testified as to the impression you had as to
the source of the first shot. To be sure that the record is complete,
what was your reaction as to where the first shot came from, Mr. Hill?

Mr. HILL. Right rear.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you have a reaction or impression as to the source
of point of origin of the second shot that you described?

Mr. HILL. It was right, but I cannot say for sure that it was rear,
because when I mounted the car it was--it had a different sound, first
of all, than the first sound that I heard. The second one had almost a
double sound--as though you were standing against something metal and
firing into it, and you hear both the sound of a gun going off and the
sound of the cartridge hitting the metal place, which could have been
caused probably by the hard surface of the head. But I am not sure that
that is what caused it.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you describing this double sound with respect to what
you heard on the occasion of the second shot?

Mr. HILL. The second shot that I heard; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, do you now or have you ever had the impression or
reaction that there was a shot which originated from the front of the
Presidential car?

Mr. HILL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. That is all I have.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, any questions you would like to ask?

Representative FORD. No.

Representative BOGGS. I have no questions, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Craig.

Mr. CRAIG. No, thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. If not, thank you very much. We appreciate your coming.

Mr. HILL. Thank you, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Youngblood, will you raise your right hand? Do you
solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I do, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Be seated, please.

Mr. Specter will conduct the examination.


TESTIMONY OF RUFUS WAYNE YOUNGBLOOD, SPECIAL AGENT, SECRET SERVICE

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Rufus Wayne Youngblood.

Mr. SPECTER. How old are you, Mr. Youngblood?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Forty.

Mr. SPECTER. And by whom are you employed?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. The U.S. Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Since March of 1951.

Mrs. SPECTER. What is your educational background, sir?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I graduated from Georgia Institute of Technology.
Bachelor of Industrial Engineering.

Mr. SPECTER. In what year?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. 1949.

Mr. SPECTER. How were you occupied from termination of your college
work until starting with the Secret Service?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I worked for Bradshaws, Inc., which was a refrigeration
and air-conditioning concern in Waycross, Ga., and then worked for
Alvin Lindstrom, who is a consulting mechanical engineer in Atlanta, Ga.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you outline in general terms what your duties
have been with the Secret Service since the time you joined them?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I began in the Secret Service as a special agent,
criminal investigator, and started off at the Atlanta field office,
and stayed there about a year and a half. This time was spent
in investigation of Government forged check cases, bond cases,
counterfeiting, and similar investigations.

(At this point, Chief Justice Warren withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I came to the Washington, DC. area, and worked in the
Washington field office, a continuation of the same type of work I had
done in Atlanta, plus the beginning of the protective work, working
on temporary assignment at the White House detail. And then in 1953
I was assigned to the White House detail and worked there during the
Eisenhower Administration about 6 years, and returned to the Atlanta
field office for 3 more years in that area, during which time President
Eisenhower would come to Augusta and Albany, and on two occasions on
foreign trips I was called in.

And after 3 years in that field office, I returned to Washington again,
assigned to the White House detail. The last part of the Eisenhower
Administration and the beginning of the Kennedy Administration.

And in March of 1961, I was assigned to the Vice-Presidential detail.
This, at that time, was part of the Washington field office. And I have
been on an assignment with the Vice-Presidential detail since March
1961, except for a 1-month period when I returned to the White House
detail. And then back to the Vice-Presidential detail.

But during this time, the Vice-Presidential detail changed from a
field office assignment to a small independent office, and then,
later, in October of 1962, when legislation was passed, changing
the laws relative to protection of the Vice President, it became a
larger detail. And I have been on the Vice-Presidential detail in the
occurrence at Dallas, and returned to the White House detail when Mr.
Johnson became the President.

And during this period of time, I have been a special agent, assistant
special agent in charge, and was scheduled to be the special agent in
charge of the Vice-Presidential detail. But due to what occurred in
Dallas, I went to the White House as an assistant special agent in
charge.

Any other particulars?

Mr. SPECTER. Well, what was your rank at the time of the Dallas trip,
specifically on November 22, 1963?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I was the assistant special agent in charge of the
Vice-Presidential detail.

(At this point, Chief Justice Warren entered the hearing room.)

Mr. SPECTER. And as such, were you responsible for the security of the
Vice President on that trip?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what is your current rank?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Assistant special agent in charge of the White House
detail.

Mr. SPECTER. And, as such, do you hold one of the three positions of
the assistant special agent in charge at the White House detail?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that a rank comparable or exactly the same as that
now held by Special Agent Kellerman?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; he is senior to me, but it is a comparable
rank.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you outline briefly and in general terms the
activities of Vice President Johnson during the few days immediately
before Friday, November 22, 1963?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. On Tuesday of that week we made a trip from the ranch
to Dallas, and we went by commercial plane--actually, from the ranch
to Austin in the Vice President's plane, and from Austin to Dallas on
a commercial plane. And while in Dallas, he addressed the Bottlers
Convention. And we returned to the plane, flew back to Austin, then
flew back to the ranch later that night, and remained at the ranch the
next day and through Thursday.

And on Thursday we went to San Antonio, to join the group coming down
from Washington.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, when did Vice President Johnson then address the
Bottlers Association in Dallas?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. That was on Tuesday.

Mr. SPECTER. November 19?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would have to look at a calendar.

Mr. SPECTER. The preceding Tuesday----

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. The preceding Tuesday before the 22d; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, outline in a general way Vice President Johnson's
activities on the morning of November 22d, before he arrived in Dallas,
if you would, please.

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, our day began at the hotel in Fort Worth, where
we had stayed overnight. And that morning we went down to a mezzanine
floor where we met with President Kennedy and a group of White House
people. We went across from this hotel to a parking lot across the
street, and they had a speaker stand there, and they addressed an
assembled gathering.

Then they returned to the hotel, and there was a breakfast meeting in
the hotel. They attended that. And, after that, we formed a motorcade
and went to the field nearby in Fort Worth and boarded Air Force 2, and
flew into Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time did the Vice Presidential plane
arrive in Dallas?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. About 11:35.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you tell the Commission in general terms what
Vice President Johnson did upon arrival at the Love Field?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. All right, sir.

This plane, Air Force 2, had on board the Vice President and Mrs.
Johnson and other officials. And we disembarked from the plane and were
met by a welcoming committee composed of local dignitaries. And then we
moved from that area where we disembarked over to the area of the ramp,
which would be pushed out when Air Force 1, the President's plane,
arrived. And when his plane did arrive, which was just a few minutes
after ours, roughly 10 minutes, we went out to the foot of the ramp and
Vice President Johnson and Mrs. Johnson headed the reception committee
to greet the people who came off of Air Force 1.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long did the activities in greeting the
crowd and the general reception last at Love Field on that morning?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Do you mean from the time we arrived on Air Force 2
until we left?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I think it was about 15 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, in what position in the motorcade was Vice President
Johnson's automobile?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. We were following the Presidential followup car, and
the motorcade up to our point--there was a lead car, the President's
car, the Presidential followup car, and then our car.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there, to your knowledge, in advance of the lead car a
car known as the pilot car?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; in all probability. This is a normal police
arrangement.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you identify the occupants of Vice President
Johnson's car, indicating the positions in the car of each individual?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. All right, sir. The driver of this car was Hurchel
Jacks, and he is with the State Highway Patrol. And behind him was
Senator Ralph Yarborough, from Texas. And in the middle back seat was
Mrs. Johnson. And on the right-hand side of the back seat, behind me,
was the Vice President. And I was in the front seat on the right-hand
side.

Mr. SPECTER. And what kind of an automobile was it?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. This was a Lincoln convertible, a four-door convertible.

Mr. SPECTER. Is this a specially constructed automobile, or was it
obtained locally for use during this trip?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. It was obtained locally for use during the trip.

Mr. SPECTER. And what car immediately followed the Vice President's
automobile?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. The Vice Presidential detail had a followup car which
followed our car.

Mr. SPECTER. What kind of an automobile was that?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. It was either a Lincoln or a Mercury, I don't know the
exact make. It was a Ford product, and it was a four-door car. But it
was closed.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify the occupants of that car, stating where
each sat?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. The front seat, the driver, I think his name is Rich.
He is always on the Texas Highway Patrol. In the front seat in the
middle is Cliff Carter. He is an assistant to the Vice President's
staff.

(At this point, Representative Boggs withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. On the right-front side was Jerry Kivett. He is one
of the agents on the Vice Presidential detail. And in the back seat,
behind the driver, was Warren Taylor, and in the back seat on the other
side was my agent, Lem Johns.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how many cars there were in the balance of the
motorcade?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the maximum speed at which the motorcade
proceeded from Love Field down to the downtown area of Dallas?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I doubt if the motorcade ever exceeded 20 miles or 25
miles an hour, and most of the time it was going slower than that.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the minimum speed, would you estimate, during
that time?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. We actually came to stops during this time.

Mr. SPECTER. How many stops?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. More than one. Two or more.

Mr. SPECTER. What occurred during the course of those stops, or what
prompted them?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, these stops were made by the Presidential car
to greet well-wishers, students on one particular occasion, and other
groups of well-wishers, that were assembled along the streets.

Mr. SPECTER. Did Vice President Johnson greet anyone at those stops?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. He did greet them, but he didn't leave the car, I
think. He remained in the car. I got out of the car and stood by the
side of it on more than one occasion. He waved at people, and some did
run over, and I think he did touch some. But he didn't leave the car.

Mr. SPECTER. How far behind the President's followup car did the Vice
President's followup car drive?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. The Vice President's followup car?

Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me--the Vice President's automobile.

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. We usually stayed on motorcades like this about two or
three car lengths behind.

Mr. SPECTER. And did your distance on this occasion conform to your
customary practice of being that distance behind?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is the reason, if any, for staying that distance
behind the President's followup car?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, mainly so the crowd can see the Vice President,
and he can see them. If you are too close behind the Presidential
group, the crowd will be watching the President and will watch him
as he goes by, and then they will miss the next man. So it gives the
people a chance to recover and look back and see him, and they to see
each other.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph which has been marked as
Commission Exhibit No. 354, and ask you if you are able to identify
what that is a picture of.

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And what does that depict?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, it is a picture showing the main street, Houston
Street and Elm Street, and the assassination occurred on Elm Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you familiar at this time with the identities of Main,
Houston, and Elm?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; when I have a map such as this ahead of me.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. How far behind the President's automobile was
the Vice President's automobile in which you were riding when the Vice
President's automobile turned right off of Main Street onto Houston?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. You ask again how far were we behind the President's
car? Did you mean, sir, how far were we behind the Presidential
followup car?

Mr. SPECTER. No; I meant the President's car on that occasion.

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, we were a distance of about two car lengths
behind the followup car, and they were probably one car length behind
the Presidential car. But this would be a guess on my part.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the situation with respect to the crowd which was
lined up on Houston and Elm as you approached that intersection?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. On Houston Street, on the side where the tall building
is, the crowd was still somewhat continuous. On the side which is the
park side, the crowd was smaller. They did have some people there, but
it wasn't continuous in the same way it was on the building side.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the speed of the Vice
President's car as you proceeded down Houston Street toward Elm Street?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, our speed, of course, was governed by the
vehicles in front of us, but I would say we had just made one turn, and
it was only a block there before we would make another turn. It was
approximately 10 miles an hour, between 10 and 15.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph which has been marked as
Commission Exhibit No. 348, and I ask you if you are now able to
identify what that building is?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; I am now able to identify it.

Mr. SPECTER. What is that building, sir?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. That is the School Book Depository Building.

Mr. SPECTER. Where, as best you can recollect, was the Vice President's
car at the time the first shots were heard? And would you take
Commission Exhibit No. 354 and take the red pencil and mark as closely
as you can the exact position on Commission Exhibit 354 of the Vice
President's car with the capital letter "A" there?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. At the time of the first shot, did you say?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. It will be in this area here, I should think.

Mr. SPECTER. I want the Vice President's car at this time.

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, this is what I am attempting to locate. It would
be in the vicinity of this "X" right here, I do believe.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, will you describe----

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Excuse me. You said put an "A" here?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please. Will you describe just what occurred as the
motorcade proceeded past the intersection of Houston and Elm Streets?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, the crowd had begun to diminish, looking ahead
and to the right the crowd became spotty. I mean it wasn't continuous
at all, like it had been. As we were beginning to go down this incline,
all of a sudden there was an explosive noise. I quickly observed
unnatural movement of crowds, like ducking or scattering, and quick
movements in the Presidential followup car. So I turned around and hit
the Vice President on the shoulder and hollered, get down, and then
looked around again and saw more of this movement, and so I proceeded
to go to the back seat and get on top of him.

I then heard two more shots. But I would like to say this. I would not
be positive that I was back on that back seat before the second shot.
But the Vice President himself said I was. But--then in hearing these
two more shots, I again had seen more movement, and I think someone
else hit a siren--I heard the noise of a siren.

I told the driver to close it up, and stick close to that car in front.
And right away we started a hasty evacuation speed, and left this
immediate area, and we were following close behind. And I had a radio
which was on a Baker frequency, where I could communicate back with the
agents in my followup car. And they had a Charlie frequency, which was
on the same network of the Presidential motorcade. And I called back
and said I am switching to Baker frequency--I said, "I am switching to
Charlie." And as I switched, I heard some transmission over the Charlie
sets saying for me to keep my man covered, and I heard Kivett reply to
Emory Roberts that he was covered, and I saw agents in the followup
car, the Presidential followup car signaling us to stay close. I asked
the driver what his opinion was as to--I don't know for exact sure
just where we were going, but I knew our best protection was to stay
with that Presidential followup crew. And I asked the driver if he had
passed the Trade Mart. He said he passed it and we were going on to the
hospital. And I heard indications over the radio that we were going to
the hospital. We had a very fast ride there.

I told the driver to go as fast as he could without having a wreck.
There was some conversation between the Vice President and myself
while we were going to the hospital. I told him that I didn't know
how serious it was up in the front car, but when we arrived at the
hospital, I would like to get out of the car and go into the building
and not stop, and for him to stay close to myself and the other agents.
He agreed to.

When we arrived at the hospital, we immediately went right in. As we
stopped at the hospital, two of my agents from the Vice Presidential
car, followup car, were coming up to meet us, and two from the
Presidential followup were coming to meet us, and, with this group, we
proceeded into the hospital and then went into a room. I posted one
man at the door and said, not to let anyone in unless he knew him, was
certain of his identity.

I told Jerry Kivett and Warren Taylor to pull all the shades and
blinds, which they did. And they also busied themselves with evacuating
a couple of people out of there. There was a nurse and a patient in
there.

Mr. SPECTER. Before you go on, Mr. Youngblood, let me drop back and
pick up a few of the details theretofore.

What would your best estimate be of the speed of the Vice President's
car at the time you heard that first explosive noise?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Oh, approximately 12 miles an hour.

Mr. SPECTER. And had you maintained the distance which you have
described heretofore behind the President's followup car?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, generally. Sometimes as we went around corners,
we tried to close up the gap a little bit. But as soon as we got on a
straight stretch, we would drop back two or three car lengths.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, at this particular time, what is your best
recollection of the distance between the Presidential followup car and
the Vice President's car?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. We are on Elm Street now.

Mr. SPECTER. At the time the first shot occurred.

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. We were two or three car lengths behind.

Mr. SPECTER. And how far behind the President's car was the
Presidential followup car at the time of the first shot?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would think somewhat less than a car length.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the total timespan between
the first and third shots which you have already described?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. From the beginning to the last?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would think 5 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. And you have described the first shot as being an
explosive noise. How would you describe each of the second and third
shots?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, there wasn't too much difference in the noise
of the first shot and the last two. I am not really sure that there
was a difference. But in my mind, I think I identified the last two
positively as shots, whereas the first one I thought was just an
explosive noise, and I didn't know whether it was a firecracker or a
shot. It seems, as I try to think over it, there was more of a crack
sound to the last two shots. That may have been distance, I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to time interval--was there longer or less time or
the same between the first and second shots and the second and third
shots?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. There seemed to be a longer span of time between the
first and the second shot than there was between the second and third
shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have any reaction or impression as to the
source or point of origin of the first shot?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I didn't know where the source or the point of origin
was, of course, but the sounds all came to my right and rear.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how about as to the latter two shots, would the same
apply, or would there be a different situation there?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. No; all of them seemed to sound that they were from the
right.

Representative FORD. Did they sound on the surface or in the air or
couldn't you discern?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I couldn't say for certain. I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you then or have you ever had any contrary
impression that the shots might have come from in front as opposed to
the rear of the automobile?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, you say that you hit the Vice President's shoulder,
and at that time you were indicating your left hand, I believe.

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Which hand did you use in hitting the Vice President's
shoulder?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. My left, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And which shoulder of the Vice President did you hit?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. His right, because I turned this way. I turned to my
left, with the hand out, and then came into his right shoulder.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you moved from the front to the rear seat, would
you describe in as much detail as you can your relative position with
respect to the position of President Johnson's body?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, the Vice President says that I vaulted over. It
was more of a stepping over. And then I sat on top of him, he being
crouched down somewhat.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating towards the left?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. He moved towards the center, or towards his left, yes,
sir, and down. And then I sat on this portion of his arm here.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the right upper portion of the arm from elbow
to the shoulder?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; generally.

Mr. SPECTER. And what were the positions of the other occupants of the
back seat at the time you sat on the Vice President?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Mrs. Johnson more or less moved into a forward--just
moved forward. And Senator Yarborough also moved forward, and possibly
he moved over a little to the right. I am not sure. But we were all
below the window level of the car. And those two generally were
forward. But the Vice President was forward and a little to his left.

Mr. SPECTER. In what direction did you look when you were first sitting
on the Vice President?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. In what direction did I look?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Almost all directions.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a reaction with respect to looking in the
direction from which you thought the danger was emanating?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I think I first looked to the right--but to the right,
forward, up, as much as I could scan, and also the people in the
Presidential followup car. Because I recall seeing at the time one of
our agents, Hickey, who was in the Presidential followup car, in almost
a standing position with an AR-15 looking back and up.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to fix the precise time of the assassination?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would say 12:30. I was to keep the times. The Vice
President was asking me if we were running on time, and so forth. And
so he asked me how much further, and I would call back to our followup
car and ask them how many more miles and so forth.

So, for this reason, I was at that time keeping up with the time very
closely. And when we turned the corner, I noticed an illuminated clock
sign on this building, which I now know is the School Book Depository
Building. And that clock indicated 12:30. And the reason it is
significant is because this was the time we were supposed to arrive at
the Trade Mart.

Representative FORD. As you looked at the school depository building,
and noticed this clock, where is the clock? Can you identify it?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. This, right here.

Representative FORD. It is on top of the roof?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; right up here.

Representative FORD. And this is after you turned from Main Street on
to Houston Street?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. We were on Houston Street--just as soon as we got on
Houston Street. And I looked up and I saw it there.

Representative FORD. Did you notice anything else on the building as
you scanned it from the top down, or from the bottom up?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I noticed open windows, and some people, I think. But I
didn't notice this particular window.

Representative FORD. You saw nothing unusual in any of the open windows
that you noticed?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, sir, all through the day here we had been passing
buildings with windows and people. And that I saw. But I saw nothing
unusual.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Youngblood, what is your best estimate as to the time
it took to get to Parkland Hospital after the shooting occurred?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I believe it was between 5 and 8 minutes, something of
that nature.

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. SPECTER. And at what speed did your automobile proceed, based on
your best estimate, en route from the shooting to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I believe we were going around 60 or 70 miles an hour
at times.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you observe President Kennedy or Governor
Connally being removed from the President's automobile?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. No, sir; because I had--as I mentioned before--I had
told the Vice President, or suggested to the Vice President that we did
not want to linger, and get into the building as quickly as we could,
and we would find out the condition of the other party after we got
into a safe place.

Mr. SPECTER. Had they already been taken in by the time you arrived at
the scene?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. No, sir; I don't hardly see how they could have been,
because we arrived almost simultaneously with them. It was just a
matter of opening the door and getting out of the car and hastily
walking right on past. I think they were in the act of removing these
people, but I don't think they would have had time to have removed them.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you enter the emergency entrance as well?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, I interrupted you before when you were describing the
security arrangements which you were making on the room to which you
took the Vice President. Would you continue and describe for us what
occurred thereafter?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. At what point?

Mr. SPECTER. I interrupted you. You were in the room, you had pulled
the shades down, and were making security arrangements for the Vice
President.

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, we were in a corner of this room, and there was
the Vice President, Mrs. Johnson, and myself at first, with agents
Kivett and Warren Taylor also in the big room, but not right over in
the corner at the beginning. And shortly thereafter Emory Roberts came
in. He was one of the White House detail agents. He told us that the
situation--situation with President Kennedy looked very bad. The Vice
President asked me what I thought--what we should do. And I said I
think we should evacuate the hospital as soon as we can, and get on
the plane, and return to Washington. And Emory Roberts concurred. And
the Vice President agreed. But he wanted to get a better report on the
condition and so forth.

Then we were joined by many others. Congressman Homer Thornberry came
in, and Congressman Brooks, and Cliff Carter, and the Vice President
had some conversations with these gentlemen. And at one time Cliff
went out and got coffee. And then Mr. Ken O'Donnell and Roy Kellerman
came down on one occasion, and Ken O'Donnell said for us to return to
Washington, and to go ahead and take the President's plane.

The Vice President was worried about Mrs. Kennedy. So Mrs. Johnson
thought that she would go see Mrs. Kennedy and Mrs. Connally. She did.
Agents Kivett and Taylor went with her. Then later, after she came
back, Ken O'Donnell and Roy Kellerman came down again and told us that
the President had died.

Mr. SPECTER. About what time was that, sir?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I don't know. I had told Lem Johns to try to keep up
with all the times. I think it is a matter of record. I believe you
have it in other documents.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, are you referring to a document which I will mark as
Commission Exhibit 355?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 355 for
identification.)

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. This is our shift report, and this is the times that
Lem Johns was keeping that day. He shows 1 p.m., President Kennedy died
at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that daily shift report prepared under your
supervision, Mr. Youngblood?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you review it and approve it when it was completed,
after the end of the workday on November 22?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, not exactly at the end of the workday, sir. These
agents would keep notes. And in this particular case you can see that
this one, it says, "Date completed, December 2" down at the bottom.
That is when he got around to typing it.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, does this document bear your initial in any place?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; up at the top. The "RYW" is my initials.

Mr. SPECTER. And does that signify your approval shortly after
completion of the document?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Would you go ahead and tell us what your
activities were from the time you had learned that the President had
died?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, when Mr. O'Donnell and Roy Kellerman told us that
he had died, the Vice President said, "Well, how about Mrs. Kennedy?"

O'Donnell told the Vice President that Mrs. Kennedy would not leave the
hospital without the President's body. And O'Donnell suggested we go
to the plane and that they just come on the other plane. And I might
add that, as a word of explanation, there were two jet planes, one Air
Force 1, in which the President flew, and the other Air Force 2, in
which the Vice President and his party flew on. And O'Donnell told us
to go ahead and take Air Force 1. I believe this is mainly because Air
Force 1 has better communications equipment and so forth than the other
planes.

President Johnson said that he didn't want to go off and leave Mrs.
Kennedy in such a state. And so he agreed that we would go on to the
airplane and board the plane and wait until Mrs. Kennedy and the body
would come out. Shall I go on?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes. Proceed. Did you then depart from Parkland Hospital?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir; previous to all of this, I had Johns, my
agent, line up some unmarked police cars so that they would be ready
when we did decide to evacuate the hospital.

So we left the room and proceeded out to these cars. The car that
we went in was driven by Chief Curry, the Dallas Police Chief, and
Congressman Thornberry was in the front seat, and the Vice President
and I were in the back seat. And I had told the Vice President before
we left the room that I would prefer that he stay below window level,
and stay close with me as we went out, and that I would also prefer
Mrs. Johnson to go in another car, but she would be accompanied by
agents. And Mrs. Johnson did get in a second car. She was accompanied
by Warren Taylor and Jerry Kivett and Congressman Brooks, and also Glen
Bennett, another agent from the White House.

And as we started to leave the hospital area, that is drive away,
just as we started away, Congressman Thomas saw us leaving--I imagine
he saw Congressman Thornberry, and he said, "Wait for me." I don't
think he saw the Vice President. And I told the driver to continue. I
didn't want to stop there in front of the hospital. But by this time
Congressman Thomas was right over at the side of the car, and the Vice
President said, "Stop and let him get in."

So he got in in the front seat with Congressman Thornberry, having
Congressman Thornberry move over closer to the driver. And then we
started out again. This probably takes longer to tell about it than it
actually took. It was about a 30-second stop.

We started out again, and the Vice President asked Congressman
Thornberry to climb on over and get in the back seat, which he did,
while the car was in motion. And then that put Congressman Thornberry
behind the driver, and on the Vice President's left, and I was on his
right.

And we continued on our way. We were momentarily stopped as we were
leaving the hospital on this access road. There was a truck or delivery
or something coming in there. We were stopped for one moment. But then
the police got us on through, and we went on out to the main roads, and
we were getting a motorcycle escort.

And they started using the sirens, and the Vice President and I both
asked Chief Curry to discontinue the use of sirens, that we didn't want
to attract attention. We were going on an unscheduled different route.
We were not using any particular route. But in telling Lem Johns to get
a car available, I told him to be sure and get a local driver who knew
the area, a local policeman who could take us any route that we needed
to go, and knew all the areas of evacuation and so forth.

So we went on to the airport. But we did have him stop using the
sirens. And just before arriving at the airport, I called on the radio
and told Air Force 1 to be ready to receive us, that we would be coming
on board immediately. We arrived there and ran up the ramp onto the
plane.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long after that did the swearing-in ceremonies
occur? Approximately?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I would say in the neighborhood of about 40 or 45
minutes after that.

Mr. SPECTER. How long after the arrival of the Vice President on the
plane did the party of the late President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy
arrive at the plane?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Approximately--after we got on the plane, I would say
it was approximately 30 or 35 minutes before Mrs. Kennedy and that
party arrived.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long after the swearing-in ceremonies did the
plane take off for the Washington area?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. After the swearing-in ceremonies, it took off
immediately. It was just a matter of letting the people who had to get
off the plane, such as Judge Hughes and Chief Curry disembark, and as
soon as they had disembarked, we closed the door and started taxiing
out.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there any conversations between Vice President
Johnson and anyone else with respect to advice on the swearing-in
ceremonies?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir. I think probably the first thing the Vice
President did after he got on board the plane was to place a call to
the Attorney General. In fact, he talked to the Attorney General, I
believe, two times--at least two times.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when those conversations occurred?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I was present when he placed the first call. I think he
placed the first call from the bedroom there of the plane. Then someone
from the Attorney General's office called back--not the Attorney
General, but someone from the office--and gave the wording of the oath.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you informed as to what advice Vice President Johnson
received from Mr. Kennedy with respect to the time of swearing in?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. I heard him discussing this--because after we got on
board the plane I told them to pull down the shades, and then I told
the Vice President, I am going to stick with you like glue while we
are on the ground here. And so we were joined by Mrs. Johnson and then
by Congressman Thornberry and Thomas, and Congressman Brooks. And I
heard them discussing about taking the oath immediately, right there in
Dallas. I heard the Vice President ask about anyone in particular that
should administer the oath. And as I gathered from conversation, it was
anyone who was authorized to administer a Federal oath. And then he put
in calls to Judge Hughes, and he told me to expect Judge Hughes and to
be sure she could get through the security lines.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, were you informed that Attorney General Kennedy
advised Vice President Johnson that he should have himself sworn in as
promptly as possible?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, as I said, I was in the area, in their immediate
vicinity, when they were talking about it. And this is what I gathered
from hearing them talk--that the Attorney General had told him to go
ahead and be sworn in there, as soon as possible.

Mr. SPECTER. And upon arrival back in Andrews Air Force Base, what
activity, if any, were you engaged in then, along with President
Johnson?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Well, on the plane, on the flight up here, there had
been numerous radio contacts in making arrangements and so forth. But
when we actually arrived, Mrs. Kennedy and the body were removed first
by the lift that was provided, and then when the ramp was in place,
our party disembarked from the plane, and then President Johnson had a
short statement that he was to make, and we went over to an area where
the microphones were set up, and he made this brief statement. And then
we proceeded from there to the awaiting helicopter, which was just a
few yards away. We boarded the helicopter and flew in to the south
grounds of the White House.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you then accompany President Johnson to his home?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. He didn't go to his home at that time; but the answer
to your question is yes, when he did go later that night. You see,
he went to his office in the EOB, the Executive Office Building, and
conducted business there until in the vicinity of 9 o'clock. And then
he went home, at which time I accompanied him, and many other agents.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe briefly what security arrangements if
any were instituted on that day for the Vice President's daughters?

Mr. YOUNGBLOOD. Yes, sir.

While we were in the hospital, receiving these reports relative to
President Kennedy's condition, I asked Mrs. Johnson--I knew generally
where Luci and Lynda were, but I wanted to get the very latest from
her, since sometimes these girls might visit a friend or a relative.
And I knew that Lynda was going to the University of Texas, and that
Luci was going to National Cathedral. So I confirmed the locations with
Mrs. Johnson and then told Agent Kivett, who was in our presence at the
time I was talking to her, to make the necessary calls to have Secret
Service protection placed around Lynda and Luci. And Agent Kivett made
these calls and then came back and reported to me that Lockwood, from
Austin, who is in the San Antonio office, but he was in Austin at the
time, had proceeded to the University of Texas to get Lynda, and that
an agent from the Washington field office would go out and get Luci at
the school.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I move for the admission into evidence
of Commission Exhibits No. 354, which is a reproduction of the overhead
shot, and 355, which is a reproduction of the Vice Presidential detail
schedules.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission
Exhibits Nos. 354 and 355, were received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. That concludes my questions, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Craig, any questions?

Mr. CRAIG. No, sir.

Mr. MURRAY. I have no questions, Mr. Chief Justice.

The CHAIRMAN. Well, Agent Youngblood, thank you very much for coming
and testifying. We appreciate it.

We will adjourn now. We will adjourn until 9 in the morning.

(Whereupon, at 6:20 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)



_Tuesday, March 10, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF ROBERT HILL JACKSON, ARNOLD LOUIS ROWLAND, JAMES RICHARD
WORRELL, JR., AND AMOS LEE EUINS

The President's Commission met at 9:15 a.m. on March 10, 1964 at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman
Cooper and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members.

Also present were Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel; David W. Belin,
assistant counsel; Norman Redlich, assistant counsel; Arlen Specter,
assistant counsel; and Edward L. Wright, Chairman, House of Delegates,
American Bar Association.


TESTIMONY OF ROBERT HILL JACKSON

The CHAIRMAN. All right, gentlemen, are we ready? Would you raise your
right hand and be sworn, Mr. Jackson? Do you solemnly swear to tell the
truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. JACKSON. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please.

Mr. Specter will conduct the examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state----

The CHAIRMAN. First, I will read a very small short statement for the
record. The purpose of this day's hearing is to hear the testimony
of Arnold Louis Rowland, Amos Lee Euins, James Richard Worrell, and
Robert H. Jackson, who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene
on November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these witnesses
for facts concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President
Kennedy.

You have seen a copy of this, have you, Mr. Jackson?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, you may proceed, Mr. Specter.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. JACKSON. Robert Hill Jackson.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your address, Mr. Jackson?

Mr. JACKSON. 4030 Sperry.

Mr. SPECTER. What city is that located in?

Mr. JACKSON. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you lived at that address, please?

Mr. JACKSON. Since September of 1963.

Mr. SPECTER. And of what State are you a native?

Mr. JACKSON. I am a native of Dallas, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you lived in Dallas all your life?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation at the present time?

Mr. JACKSON. Staff photographer for the Dallas Times Herald.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. JACKSON. Since August of 1960.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline for us briefly----

The CHAIRMAN. 1950 or 1960?

Mr. JACKSON. 1960.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline for us briefly your educational
background, please?

Mr. JACKSON. I attended Highland Park High School and then Southern
Methodist University, where I studied for a business degree, and I did
not finish. I lack about 8 hours of finishing, of getting a degree.

Mr. SPECTER. What year did you leave the university?

Mr. JACKSON. 1957.

Mr. SPECTER. How were you occupied between the time you left the
university and the time you started to work for the newspaper?

Mr. JACKSON. I did some freelance photography work for a while, over
a year, until I went into the service on the 6 month's plan through
my National Guard unit, and I was a photographer there in the Army,
on-the-job training, and then after I was released from the Army I did
freelance work, I guess for about a year, until I got the job at the
Herald.

Mr. SPECTER. How old are you at the present time?

Mr. JACKSON. Twenty-nine.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your marital status?

Mr. JACKSON. I am married.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have children?

Mr. JACKSON. One child. One girl 15 months today.

Mr. SPECTER. Going back to November 22, 1963, by whom were you employed
at that time?

Mr. JACKSON. Dallas Times Herald.

Mr. SPECTER. What was your assignment on that specific day?

Mr. JACKSON. I was assigned to the motorcade to meet the President,
Love Field, and go to the Trade Mart and that was the extent of it,
cover the parade, I mean the motorcade and the speech.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you assigned to take pictures?

Mr. JACKSON. To take pictures, yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you meet the President at Love Field?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you take photographs for your newspaper at Love
Field?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe briefly your activities at Love Field on the
morning of November 22, please.

Mr. JACKSON. Well, we got there, I guess, 30, 40 minutes early.

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time would that have been?

Mr. JACKSON. I have to think to remember exactly what time, around 9,
I guess, 9 to 9:15, I believe. And I took pictures there. There were
other photographers from our paper there, our chief photographer. And
we just took shots of the crowd, and waited for the President to arrive.

And then when he did arrive, our chief photographer left and went
directly to the Trade Mart and I got into the motorcade to ride to town.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know exactly which car you were in in the motorcade?

Mr. JACKSON. We counted up, and it is either the seventh or eighth car.
We said eighth car from the President, from the lead car.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say we counted up, whom do you mean?

Mr. JACKSON. The photographers in the car. As we left Love Field, we
were trying to figure how far back we were and we all decided it was
the eighth car.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you reconstruct that count for us which provided the
basis for your conclusion that you were in the seventh or eighth car.
For example, how many cars ahead of you was the President's car or the
Vice President's car, if you can recollect, please.

Mr. JACKSON. Let me think a minute. I know there was a photographer's
car directly in front of us which I believe had some of the local
press. It was a convertible. Then in front were, I believe, two
or three cars carrying the press, the White House press, and then
President Johnson, I guess would be in the next car, and then the
President in the lead car, or the next car, and I believe there was
another car in the lead.

Mr. SPECTER. So as you recollect the scene there was the lead and
immediately behind the lead car, whose car?

Mr. JACKSON. The President's, I believe.

Mr. SPECTER. And then immediately behind the President's whose car?

Mr. JACKSON. The Vice President's.

Mr. SPECTER. And immediately to the rear of the Vice President's car?

Mr. JACKSON. Press vehicles and I was told it was the White House
press, two or three cars.

Mr. SPECTER. And then there was one car filled with photographers?

Mr. JACKSON. Directly in front of us.

Mr. SPECTER. Between your car and the cars which you believe to have
been filled with White House newsmen?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Wasn't there a Secret Service car directly behind the
President's car?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Between it and the Vice President's car?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; that is right.

Mr. SPECTER. Wasn't there a Secret Service car immediately behind the
Vice President's car, if you know?

Mr. JACKSON. There must have been. That is what I can't recall is which
was which in there. I knew the White House press was in there but I
didn't know how many cars. I am sure there were Secret Service cars,
yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. As you were proceeding along in the motorcade, were you
within sight of the President's automobile?

Mr. JACKSON. At times. When he was--when we could not get a clear view
of it because of the photographers in the car ahead of us who were
sitting up on the back of the seat just like we were, we did not have a
clear view of the car at all times.

Mr. SPECTER. As you proceeded along approximately how far behind the
President's car were you, expressed either in cars, block lengths or in
any way that is convenient for you?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, I would say approximately a block, average city
block, maybe closer at times.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Jackson, I show you a photograph which has been marked
heretofore as Commission Exhibit No. 347, and ask you to look at it for
a moment, and see if you can identify what that photograph depicts.

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; this is the scene of the assassination, parade
route, Main and Houston, left on Elm.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, which street did the Presidential motorcade take
coming on to that scene which you have described as the assassination
scene.

Mr. JACKSON. They were on Houston.

Mr. SPECTER. And before Houston what street were they on?

Mr. JACKSON. Main Street.

Mr. SPECTER. What direction were they proceeding on Main Street?

Mr. JACKSON. West.

Mr. SPECTER. Now without reference to the photograph, will you tell us
what happened as the motorcade proceeded west on Main Street?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, on Main, as we neared Houston Street everyone was
more or less in a relaxed state in our car, because we were near the
end of the route, I guess, nothing unusual happened on Main Street.

The final block on Main, before we turned on Houston I was in the
process of unloading a camera and I was to toss it out of the car as we
turned right on Houston Street to one of our reporters.

Mr. SPECTER. Had that been set up by prearrangement?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. And that I did as we turned the corner, and
when--it was in an interval and as I threw it out the wind blew it,
caught it and blew it out into the street and our reporter chased
it out into the street and the photographers in our car, one of the
photographers, was a TV cameraman whom I do not recall his name, and
he was joking about the film being thrown out and he was shooting my
picture of throwing the film out.

Mr. SPECTER. At this point could you tell us, to the best of your
recollection, precisely who was with you in the car at that time?

Mr. JACKSON. Jim Underwood from KRLD-TV station, Tom Dillard, chief
photographer for the Dallas Morning News, and me, and then two newsreel
cameramen who I know by sight but I don't know their names.

One is with WFAA which is the Dallas Morning News station, and I
believe the other was channel 11, I believe.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you position those people in the automobile for us
with respect to where each was sitting?

(At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. JACKSON. Tom Dillard and Jim Underwood were in the front seat with
the driver.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you identify who the driver was?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. But he was a sixth individual separate and apart from the
five heretofore described?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. And in the back seat were the two I know by
sight but I can't remember the names.

And I was on the right side of the car.

Mr. SPECTER. On the right side of which seat?

Mr. JACKSON. Back seat, sitting up on the back of a seat.

Mr. SPECTER. What kind of a car was it, sir?

Mr. JACKSON. I believe it was a Chevrolet convertible.

Mr. SPECTER. Top down?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you carrying one camera or more than one camera?

Mr. JACKSON. Two cameras.

Mr. SPECTER. And was one camera loaded at the time you rounded the
corner of Main and Houston?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; and one was empty.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it from the camera which was empty that you had taken
the roll of film which you have just described?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Will you now proceed to tell us what happened
as you rounded the corner of Main and Houston, please?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, as our reporter chased the film out into the street,
we all looked back at him and were laughing, and it was approximately
that time that we heard the first shot, and we had already rounded the
corner, of course, when we heard the first shot. We were approximately
almost half a block on Houston Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you identify for me on Commission Exhibit 347,
precisely as possible, where your automobile was at the time you heard
the first shot?

Mr. JACKSON. Approximately right here, I would say the midpoint of this
building. Approximately where we heard the first report.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you mark in a black "X" on 347 the spot where
your car was at the time you heard the first shot?

Mr. JACKSON. Right here approximately. And as we heard the first shot,
I believe it was Tom Dillard from Dallas News who made some remark as
to that sounding like a firecracker, and it could have been somebody
else who said that. But someone else did speak up and make that comment
and before he actually finished the sentence we heard the other two
shots. Then we realized or we thought that it was gunfire, and then
we could not at that point see the President's car. We were still
moving slowly, and after the third shot the second two shots seemed
much closer together than the first shot, than they were to the first
shot. Then after the last shot, I guess all of us were just looking all
around and I just looked straight up ahead of me which would have been
looking at the School Book Depository and I noticed two Negro men in a
window straining to see directly above them, and my eyes followed right
on up to the window above them and I saw the rifle or what looked like
a rifle approximately half of the weapon, I guess I saw, and just as I
looked at it, it was drawn fairly slowly back into the building, and I
saw no one in the window with it.

I didn't even see a form in the window.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next?

Mr. JACKSON. I said "There is the gun," or it came from that window. I
tried to point it out. But by the time the other people looked up, of
course, it was gone, and about that time we were beginning to turn the
corner.

Mr. SPECTER. Which corner were you beginning to turn?

Mr. JACKSON. Houston onto Elm.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photograph marked as Commission Exhibit
No. 348 and ask you if you can identify what that depicts?

Mr. JACKSON. This is the School Book Depository. This is the window the
two colored men were looking out of. This is the window where the rifle
was.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark the window where the rifle was with an "A"
and would you please mark the window where you have identified the men
below with a "B."

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Referring to your mark of "A," the photograph will show
that you have marked the window on the sixth floor with the mark being
placed on the window on the westerly half of the first double window.

Mr. JACKSON. I am sorry. This window here on the very end was
the window where the weapon was. I am sorry, I just marked the
double--actually this is the rifle window right here.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you take the black pencil again and draw an
arrow--before you start to mark, hear the rest of the question--as
precisely as you can to the exact spot where you saw what you have
described as the rifle.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Was the window you have just marked as being the spot from
which the rifle protruded, open when you looked up?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection as to how far open it was
at that time?

Mr. JACKSON. I would say that it was open like that window there,
halfway.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a window on the sixth floor of the westernmost
portion of the building open halfway as you have described it.

My last comment, as to the description of your last window, is only for
the purpose of what you have said in identifying a window to show how
far open the window was.

Mr. JACKSON. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Which you heretofore marked with an arrow, correct?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Also in that window I could see boxes, corrugated boxes on the left
portion which would be my left, of the window, of the open window.

Mr. SPECTER. How many boxes could you see?

Mr. JACKSON. I couldn't tell. It just seemed like a stack of boxes.

Mr. SPECTER. How high were the boxes stacked?

Mr. JACKSON. Maybe two is all I saw. They were stacked, I believe they
were as high as the window was open, halfway up the window.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection of the size of those boxes
which you say you saw?

Mr. JACKSON. Maybe like that, that wide.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating approximately 3 feet wide?

Mr. JACKSON. Three feet or a little less maybe.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the height of those boxes?

Mr. JACKSON. I would say high enough to hide a man. Let's say, between
5 and 6 feet high, I would say to the best of my recollection. From the
angle I was looking at it, I would say they were 5 feet high at least.

Mr. SPECTER. That is each box would be 5 feet high?

Mr. JACKSON. No; the stack, the stacked boxes.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you see how many boxes were stacked up to reach a
total height of 5 to 6 feet?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you able to see anyone in front of those boxes?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Whether or not you could identify anyone, could you see
even the form or outline of the man?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. It looked to me like the man was over to the side
of the window because the rifle was at quite an angle to me.

Mr. SPECTER. Which side of the window?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, from the position of the rifle it would be the
corner of the building, the east. It would be to the right of the
window from my view.

Mr. SPECTER. Which direction was the rifle pointing?

Mr. JACKSON. West. To my left.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it pointing in a straight westerly direction or was it
pointing at an angle from the building.

Mr. JACKSON. It was at an angle from the building. I am not--well,
let's see--well, it wouldn't be directly west.

Mr. SPECTER. What was the general line of direction of the pointing of
the rifle?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, directly down the street.

Mr. SPECTER. And by down the street you are pointing out what street?

Mr. JACKSON. Down Elm Street toward the triple, toward the underpass.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it pointed as you have indicated at the angle which
Elm Street traverses heading toward the triple underpass?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. And the rifle was pointing slightly down.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you at any time in this sequence observe the
President's automobile?

Mr. JACKSON. As we turned the corner--or we stopped where the
intersection, actually we stopped before we began to turn left onto Elm
Street, or rather I would say we hesitated and we were all looking down
towards the President's car and I could see two cars going under the
underpass. I barely saw the President's car. I would say just the rear
end of it as it disappeared under the underpass.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that the only time you saw the President's car from
the time you made a right-hand turn off of Main Street onto Houston
Street?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the time span between the
first shot you heard and the last shot you heard?

Mr. JACKSON. I would say 5 to 8 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us a breakdown between the shots which you
heard as to how many seconds elapsed between each one?

Mr. JACKSON. I would say to me it seemed like 3 or 4 seconds between
the first and the second, and between the second and third, well, I
guess 2 seconds, they were very close together. It could have been more
time between the first and second. I really can't be sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure you heard three shots?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you mark on the overhead shot, which is Exhibit
347, with a "Y" as precisely as you can the position of your automobile
at the time you heard the second shot?

Mr. JACKSON. With a "Y"?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Would you now mark on the same exhibit the precise
position of your car as closely as you can recollect it when you heard
the third shot with a letter "Z"?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. When, in relation to the timing of the shots, which
you have described, did you first look toward the Texas School Book
Depository Building?

Mr. JACKSON. It couldn't have been more than 3 seconds before I looked
at that window.

Mr. SPECTER. Three seconds from what point in time?

Mr. JACKSON. From the last shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you say from the last shot?

Mr. JACKSON. From the last shot, yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection or estimate of the speed
of your automobile as you were proceeding in a generally northerly
direction on Houston Street at the time of the shooting?

Mr. JACKSON. I would say not over 15 miles an hour.

Mr. SPECTER. What would your best estimate be as to the minimum speed?

Mr. JACKSON. Ten, I would say.

Mr. SPECTER. Where, in the window were the two Negro men, whom you have
described?

Mr. JACKSON. Well, there was one in each of those double windows.

Mr. SPECTER. On which floor was that?

Mr. JACKSON. The fifth floor.

Mr. SPECTER. And will you place an arrow where you saw each of those
men, please?

Mr. JACKSON. Each one of them?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any reaction from either or both of those
two men when you saw them?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. Just looking up.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you see their faces reasonably clearly to observe
that they were looking up.

Mr. JACKSON. I could tell they were looking up because they were
leaning way out just like that. I couldn't see their faces very well at
all.

Mr. SPECTER. The witness has leaned forward and turned his head to
the right and looking upward as he sits in the witness chair, may the
record show.

Representative FORD. Did they both turn the same way as you have
indicated in answer to Mr. Specter's question?

Mr. JACKSON. To the best of my recollection one man looked up to his
right and the other man looked up like this to his left, one in each
window.

Representative FORD. Can you identify which to his right and which to
his left?

Mr. JACKSON. I believe the one on the right window, my right, was
looking to his right. The one on the west window, the one to my left
was looking to his left. I believe I am right on that but I may not
be because I just looked at them for a fraction of a second, I just
followed them up.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance which separated
you from those two men at the time you observed them?

Mr. JACKSON. I am not very good at distances. I was about the middle of
the block, I guess. I would say around a hundred yards, I guess.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see those two men before or after you observed the
rifle?

Mr. JACKSON. Before.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of how many inches of the rifle
that you observed?

Mr. JACKSON. I saw the barrel and about half--well, I did not see a
telescopic sight, but I did see part of the stock, so I guess maybe 8
or 10 inches of the stock maybe. I did see part of the stock, I did not
see the sight.

Mr. SPECTER. Eight or ten inches of the stock, and how much of the
barrel would you estimate?

Mr. JACKSON. I guess possibly a foot.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anyone's hands on the rifle?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as best as you can recollect it, what exact words did
you state at or about the time you made the observation of the rifle,
if any?

Mr. JACKSON. I said, "There is the gun" and somebody said "Where?" And
I said, "It came from that window" and I pointed to that window.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect who it was who said "Where?"

Mr. JACKSON. Somebody in the car, I don't recall who.

Mr. SPECTER. Did anybody else in the car say anything else at that time?

Mr. JACKSON. Nothing that I could remember. I am sure they were all
talking.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you say anything else at about that time?

Mr. JACKSON. If I did, I don't remember.

Mr. SPECTER. Did anyone in the automobile state that he, too, had seen
the rifle from the window?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a conversation with all of the men in the car
immediately after the incident?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; because as, I guess after the third shot, I do
recall the driver speeding up, and we hesitated at the corner before
turning left, and three of the occupants of the car got out, jumped out.

Mr. SPECTER. Who were those three?

Mr. JACKSON. That was Underwood, Jim Underwood, Tom Dillard and one of
the TV cameramen. The WHAA channel 8 cameraman and I were left in the
back seat. We couldn't make up our minds.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there an individual in the car by the name of Mr.
Couch, to your knowledge?

Mr. JACKSON. Couch?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. JACKSON. I don't know him.

Mr. SPECTER. Malcolm Couch?

Mr. JACKSON. The name is familiar. I might state what I did see as we
did hesitate there, at the corner, I don't recall whether this was
before the other three fellows got out of the car or not, I believe we
were still all in the car, as we observed these other things, but in
a fleeting glance as I saw the cars go under the underpass, I did see
people running. I saw a motorcycle policeman jump off his motorcycle,
in fact, he just hit the curb and just let it fall, and he went down on
his knees on the grass, on the lawn of that parkway.

I did see a family covering up their child, and I just saw a state of
confusion, people running, and that is about all I saw at that point of
the scene.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Jackson, at the time you heard the first shot, did you
have any reaction or impression from the sound itself as to the source
of the shot, point of origin?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; I didn't. It did sound like it came from ahead of
us or from that general vicinity but I could not tell whether it was
high up or on the ground.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say that general vicinity, what vicinity did you
mean?

Mr. JACKSON. We were sure it came from ahead of us which would be in a
northerly direction, northwesterly direction. It did sound as though it
came from somewhere around the head of the motorcade.

Mr. SPECTER. From the second shot, did you have any reaction or
impression as to the source of this shot?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. Through all three shots, I could just tell that
it was ahead of me and not behind me, that is it.

Mr. SPECTER. And the same impression then prevailed through the third
shot as well.

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. To me it never sounded like it was high or low.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had occasion since this incident to relate the
factual sequences, your observations and what you heard? Have you had
occasion to tell anybody about what you saw and heard as you have
described it to us?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Has there been any variation in your recollection or
impressions about your observations on these occasions?

Mr. JACKSON. Not to my knowledge. The other times were not as thorough
as this.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, those are all of the questions which I
have, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, any questions you would like to ask Mr.
Jackson?

Representative FORD. Mr. Jackson, when and by whom were you questioned
or interrogated subsequent to the event? I was thinking of the FBI, the
Secret Service, or any investigative organization.

Mr. JACKSON. You say when, how soon afterwards?

Representative FORD. Right.

Mr. JACKSON. I would say within 2 days afterwards, let's see, the next
day was the first day.

Representative FORD. Saturday November 23?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir; I believe it was the first time.

Representative FORD. Who, by name, if you can, but if not by what
organization?

Mr. JACKSON. The FBI called me, I believe it was Friday evening, and I
believe I did give some information on the phone Friday night.

Representative FORD. Was that followed up----

Mr. JACKSON. And they came and saw me in the office, I believe on
Saturday.

Representative FORD. How did they happen to contact you? Had you made a
statement publicly before?

Mr. JACKSON. Our newspaper ran an article by me or I got a byline on it
stating this in general which I have stated today.

Representative FORD. Following this initial contact have you made
subsequent statements to various organizations or any organization?

Mr. JACKSON. I made statements to the Secret Service also. Other than
that there was none other.

Representative FORD. How good are your eyes, do you wear glasses?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Representative FORD. Have you had an eye examination recently or when
was the last examination?

Mr. JACKSON. I had a physical when I reenlisted in the National Guard,
let's see, that was, I believe, about a year and a half ago, I had that
physical and I had 20-20 vision.

Representative FORD. 20-20 vision?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. You just indicated you were in the Texas National
Guard?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. How long have you been in the Texas National Guard?

Mr. JACKSON. I joined in October 1958.

Representative FORD. And you have been in continuously since?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. So you are familiar with guns in general?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. So you would readily identify, if you saw it, a
rifle?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Did any others in the automobile in which you were
riding recollect as far as you know, hearing you say "There is the gun."

Mr. JACKSON. I don't know whether they would remember it or not.

Representative FORD. Have you ever talked with any others in the car?

Mr. JACKSON. I have never sat down and talked with them about the
events, no, sir. I have seen them, of course, several times but I have
never discussed it with them.

Representative FORD. You never discussed what you said or what they
said?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir. I guess the one man I have discussed it more
with than anybody else was Tom Dillard, the chief photographer for the
Dallas News, and we recalled to each other the scene but we really
never went into any detail or as to what each one of us said either.

Representative FORD. At the time you were in the car, after it had
turned from Main onto Houston, was there any noise from the crowd on
either side of the street, Houston Street?

Mr. JACKSON. There was very little crowd on Houston, as I recall. On
Houston itself. The crowd--I mean as compared to Main Street, to the
other end of town and down through Main. The crowd thinned out as we
got down near the intersection of Main and Houston, and there were a
lot less people but I couldn't make an estimate of how many.

Representative FORD. There was no noise from the crowd at that point?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir; no noise, I would say.

Representative FORD. At the time you heard the first shot, what was
your position in the car? Were you standing or sitting?

Mr. JACKSON. I was sitting on the back of the seat, on the right-hand
side of the back seat, sitting up.

Representative FORD. Did you have your camera in your hand?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes; I had one camera around my neck and the camera I
had just emptied, it was in my lap. I had thrown my film out to this
reporter over the side of the car as we rounded the corner and I still
had the camera lying in my lap, and the other one was around my neck.

Representative FORD. Was this the position you were in at the time you
heard the first shot?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. After the third shot and as the car hesitated,
did you see any law enforcement officials move in any concentrated or
concerted direction?

Mr. JACKSON. I saw at least one, there may have been more, run up the
School Depository steps, toward the door. That is one of the things I
saw in this confusion.

Representative FORD. This was separate from the policeman on the
motorcycle?

Mr. JACKSON. Yes, sir. Yes. I should have said that a while ago. There
was a policeman who moved toward the door of the Depository. But to my
best knowledge there was no concentrated movement toward any one spot.
It looked like general confusion to me, and of course, I stayed in the
car. As we did turn the corner our driver speeded up and we went by the
scene pretty fast and I do recall this Negro family covering up their
child on the grass, and I, as we passed them, they were just getting up
and he had the child in his arms and the child looked limp and I didn't
know whether the child was shot or not. But then we were moving fast
and went on under the underpass.

Representative FORD. That is all, Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wright, do you have any questions?

Mr. WRIGHT. No, Mr. Chief Justice, I passed a question on.

Mr. SPECTER. I have just one additional question, and that is whether
Mr. Jackson had any occasion to see anybody leave the scene of the
Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. JACKSON. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. That is all, Your Honor.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Jackson, thank you very much for coming.

Mr. JACKSON. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. We appreciate it.

Who is next?

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland.

The CHAIRMAN. Would you raise your right hand and be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this Commission will
be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter will conduct the examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please, but
before you do, Mr. Chief Justice, is it your practice to read that
statement to the witness?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I will read a short statement to you for the purpose
of the hearing.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Arnold Louis
Rowland, Amos Lee Euins, James Richard Worrell, and Robert H. Jackson,
who were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on November
22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these witnesses for facts
concerning their knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy.

A copy of that statement was furnished to you, was it not?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

The CHAIRMAN. You didn't see it. You have one before you. Very well.


TESTIMONY OF ARNOLD LOUIS ROWLAND

Mr. SPECTER. Will you please state your full name for the record, Mr.
Rowland?

Mr. ROWLAND. Arnold Louis Rowland.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your address?

Mr. ROWLAND. 1131 Aphinney.

Mr. SPECTER. And in what city do you reside?

Mr. ROWLAND. This is Dallas, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you resided in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. ROWLAND. About 9 months at present.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live before coming to Dallas?

Mr. ROWLAND. In Salem, Oreg.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Salem, Oreg.

Mr. ROWLAND. About 3 months.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live before moving to Salem, Oreg.

Mr. ROWLAND. Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Dallas at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 4 years.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born?

Mr. ROWLAND. Corpus Christi, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you lived in Texas most of your life?

Mr. ROWLAND. Most of my life.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your age at the present time, Mr. Rowland?

Mr. ROWLAND. Eighteen.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your exact date of birth, please?

Mr. ROWLAND. April 29, 1945.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your marital status.

Mr. ROWLAND. Married.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you any children?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been married?

Mr. ROWLAND. Ten months.

Mr. SPECTER. What education have you had, sir?

Mr. ROWLAND. High school.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you attending high school at the present time?

Mr. ROWLAND. I have finished, and fixing to go to college.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you graduate from high school?

Mr. ROWLAND. June 1963.

Mr. SPECTER. How have you been occupied or employed since June of 1963?

Mr. ROWLAND. Worked in Oregon at three different jobs. Exchange Lumber
Co. as a shipping clerk, Meier Frank Co. as a clothes salesman, and
part time at West Foods. The business was mushroom processing. That was
during the summer.

Upon my return to Dallas, I worked part time, while doing some
postgraduate work, at the Pizza Inn. At present I am working with the
P. F. Collier Co.

Mr. SPECTER. What sort of work are you doing with P. F. Collier?

Mr. ROWLAND. That is promotional advertising.

Mr. SPECTER. What college are you attending, if any, at the present
time?

Mr. ROWLAND. None at the present.

Mr. SPECTER. What postgraduate work had you been doing that you just
mentioned?

Mr. ROWLAND. Studies in math and science.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you studying these courses?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was a high school in Dallas as advanced courses.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been accepted in any college?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; several. Texas A. & M., Rice, SMU, Arlington.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have plans to attend one of those colleges?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Which one do you plan to enter?

Mr. ROWLAND. Preferably Rice.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have an entry date set?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I am trying for a scholarship for it.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been in the military service?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I haven't.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the general condition of your health.

Mr. ROWLAND. Good.

Mr. SPECTER. What is the condition of your eyesight?

Mr. ROWLAND. Very good.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you wear glasses at any time?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. When, most recently, have you had an eye test, if at all?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 7 months ago.

Mr. SPECTER. And you know the results of that test?

Mr. ROWLAND. Very good vision.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what classification the doctor placed on it?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't remember it.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect if it was 20-20?

Mr. ROWLAND. He said it was much better than that.

Mr. SPECTER. And what doctor examined your eyes?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was the firm of doctors Finn and Finn.

Mr. SPECTER. F-i-n-n and F-i-n-n?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where are they located?

Mr. ROWLAND. The Fidelity Union Life Building in Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long ago was that examination?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 6 months.

Mr. SPECTER. Going to the day of November 22, 1963, how were you
occupied at that time, Mr. Rowland?

Mr. ROWLAND. I was attending classes in school part of the day, working
part time as a pizzamaker in Pizza Inn.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you regularly scheduled classes on the morning of
November 22, 1963?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. I had classes up until 11. I just had two classes on
Friday.

Mr. SPECTER. And what school were you attending at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. W. H. Adamson High.

Mr. SPECTER. How far is that from the intersection of Houston and Elm
Streets in Dallas, approximately?

Mr. ROWLAND. It must have been about a mile and a half.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe for the Commission what you did on that
morning, in a general way, up until approximately noon time?

Mr. ROWLAND. I went to my classes. My wife got out of school early. We
went to town. I had to go to work at 4, so we were going downtown to do
some shopping. We went early so we could see the President's motorcade.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive in town?

Mr. ROWLAND. We rode a bus from the school. We got to town
approximately a quarter to 12.

Mr. SPECTER. What school was your wife attending at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. The same: Adamson.

Mr. SPECTER. What time did her classes end?

Mr. ROWLAND. She got out at 11 also.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do from the time you arrived in town at
approximately a quarter of 12 for the next 15 minutes?

Mr. ROWLAND. Trying to find a good vantage point. We walked about five
or six blocks.

Mr. SPECTER. From where did you walk?

Mr. ROWLAND. We got off at the junction, at the intersection of Main
and Houston, walked up toward Ervay, about four blocks, I would say
up to Akard. We walked from Houston to Akard on Main, and then we
walked back down Commerce and then over to the sheriffs or the county
courthouse, there was a lesser crowd there.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the reason you selected the spot you ultimately
picked to watch the parade?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, there was no one in front of us, no one around that
area.

Mr. SPECTER. I am going to show you a photograph, Mr. Rowland, which
has already been identified as Commission Exhibit No. 347 and first ask
you if you can identify what scene this represents.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I can.

Mr. SPECTER. What scene is that?

Mr. ROWLAND. This is the triple underpass, this is the scene where the
President was assassinated.

Mr. SPECTER. What is this plaza called in Dallas?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know exactly. It is just known as the triple
underpass.

Mr. SPECTER. Is it known as Dealey Plaza to your knowledge?

Mr. ROWLAND. I have never heard it called that.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you point with your finger for me at the spot where
you were standing as best you can recollect it?

Mr. ROWLAND. We were about in this area on this sidewalk of this
building. I say approximately two-thirds of the distance between here
and here in this direction.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

I have a substitute photograph for you to mark. I am now showing you
an identical scene on a photograph which has been heretofore marked as
Commission Exhibit No. 354. Will you mark with an arrow as closely as
possible to the point where you were standing?

Mr. ROWLAND. There is an elevator shaft below this second window on
that building that comes through a sidewalk. I was about 5 feet to the
left of it, about the third window or right here in this area.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark that a little more heavily, please?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. What time were you so positioned?

Mr. ROWLAND. We got there about 5 after 12.

Mr. SPECTER. Did your position move at any time during the course of
the next half hour?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. We did move to this corner, there were too many
people on this corner.

Mr. SPECTER. You are indicating back to the corner of Houston and Main?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. Houston and Main there were too many crowds so we
came back to this street here, Commerce is that right; no, Elm and
Main. We came back to Elm and Main and figured it wouldn't be a very
good vantage point because of the crowd there so we went back to where
we were.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you standing at the time the President's
motorcade passed by you?

Mr. ROWLAND. At that position.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. The position you have marked with a "V," inverted "V."

Will you mark with the letter "A" the point to which you had moved when
you described it as being at Commerce which you corrected to Elm and
Houston.

Mr. ROWLAND. It was this corner.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately what time did you move to the position you
have marked "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 10 after 12.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay at position "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Momentarily, just long enough to look, maybe a minute.

Mr. SPECTER. To look at what?

Mr. ROWLAND. To look at the position itself. There was too much of a
crowd in that area. When the President would come by they would be
pushing or rushing in that area and it would be too crowded for us.

Mr. SPECTER. At that point you did what?

Mr. ROWLAND. Then we went back to where we were.

Mr. SPECTER. To position "V"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, and we stayed there for a minute or so, walked to the
corner of Main and Houston.

Mr. SPECTER. Mark Main and Houston with the letter "B," if you would,
where you moved next.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. ROWLAND. Stayed there momentarily, less than a minute. There was
quite a crowd there and we went back to where we were, our original
position.

Mr. SPECTER. To position "V"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What time would you say you got back to your position "V"?

Mr. ROWLAND. We got back there 14 after, I noticed the time on my
watch, and the Hertz time clock I noticed was about a minute later.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was the Hertz time clock located?

Mr. ROWLAND. That was on top of the school depository building.

Mr. SPECTER. Was your watch synchronized with the Hertz up on top.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I always set it by the same clock whenever I pass it.
I pass it coming into town and I set my watch at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you observe at any time the building which is
depicted in Commission Exhibit No. 348?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. We were looking around it, my wife and I, amongst the
crowd, the different areas, making note of the policemen on top of the
underpass itself, in that area, and the security precautions that were
being taken.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, I would like to show the witness the same
photograph, but a different picture on an exhibit marked Commission
Exhibit No. 356.

Mr. Rowland, I show you a picture marked Commission Exhibit No. 356 and
ask you if you can identify what that represents?

Mr. ROWLAND. That is Houston, Elm running in front of this building.
This is the school book depository building.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you familiar with that building prior to November 22,
1963?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I have been in there on occasion.

Mr. SPECTER. You have been in the building?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, to purchase books.

Mr. SPECTER. When were you in the building most recently prior to
November 22, 1963?

Mr. ROWLAND. Within the first week of November. This was to buy a
physics notebook.

Mr. SPECTER. What part of the building were you in at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. Just inside the door of the main lobby.

Mr. SPECTER. On the first floor?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever had occasion at any time to be on any floor
other than the first floor?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. While you were standing on Houston Street in the various
positions which you have described, did you have occasion at any time
to observe the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. When we returned to position "V" we stayed there,
we began looking around. My wife and I were discussing the security
precautions that were taken in view of the event when Mr. Stevenson was
there.

Mr. SPECTER. Before you go on, let me ask you at which time was this on
your return to position "V"?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was 12:15.

Mr. SPECTER. All right; proceed to tell us what you saw and heard at
about that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. We were discussing, as I stated, the different security
precautions, I mean it was a very important person who was coming
and we were aware of the policemen around everywhere, and especially
in positions where they would be able to watch crowds. We talked
momentarily of the incidents with Mr. Stevenson, and the one before
that with Mr. Johnson, and this being in mind we were more or less
security conscious. We looked and at that time I noticed on the sixth
floor of the building that there was a man back from the window, not
hanging out the window.

He was standing and holding a rifle. This appeared to me to be a fairly
high-powered rifle because of the scope and the relative proportion of
the scope to the rifle, you can tell about what type of rifle it is.
You can tell it isn't a .22, you know, and we thought momentarily that
maybe we should tell someone but then the thought came to us that it is
a security agent.

We had seen in the movies before where they have security men up in
windows and places like that with rifles to watch the crowds, and we
brushed it aside as that, at that time, and thought nothing else about
it until after the event happened.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, by referring to the photograph on this Commission
Exhibit No. 356, will you point to the window where you observed this
man?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was very odd. There were--this picture was not taken
immediately after that, I don't think, because there were several
windows, there are pairs of windows, and there were several pairs where
both windows were open fully and in each pair there was one or more
persons hanging out the window.

Yet this was on the west corner of the building, the sixth floor, the
first floor--second floor down from the top, the first was the arched,
the larger windows, not the arch, but the larger windows, and this was
the only pair of windows where both windows were completely open and no
one was hanging out the windows, or next to the window.

It was this pair of windows here at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Will you mark that pair of windows with a circle?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best recollection as to how far each of those
windows were open?

Mr. ROWLAND. To the fullest extent that they could be opened.

Mr. SPECTER. What extent would that be?

Mr. ROWLAND. Being as I looked half frame windows, that would be
halfway of the entire length of the window.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the approximate status of those windows depicted
here in Exhibit 356?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. In which of those double windows did you see the man and
rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was through the window to my right.

Mr. SPECTER. Draw an arrow right into that window with the same black
pencil please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. How much, if any, or all of that rifle could you see?

Mr. ROWLAND. All of it.

Mr. SPECTER. You could see from the base of the stock down to the tip
of the end of the rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. The barrel of the rifle?

The CHAIRMAN. Congressman Ford, will you excuse me for just a few
minutes to run across the street to my office. You conduct during my
absence.

Representative FORD. Will you proceed, Mr. Specter?

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance between where
you were standing and the man holding the rifle whom you have just
described?

(The Chief Justice left the hearing room.)

Mr. ROWLAND. 150 feet approximately, very possibly more. I don't know
for sure.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you very good at judging distances of that sort?

Mr. ROWLAND. Fairly good.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any experience or practice at judging such
distances?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. Even in using the method in physics or, you know,
elementary physics of looking at a position in two different views, you
can tell its distance. I did that quite frequently. And the best I can
recollect it was within 150 to 175 feet.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the rifle with any more particularity
than you already have?

Mr. ROWLAND. No. In proportion to the scope it appeared to me to be a
.30-odd size 6, a deer rifle with a fairly large or powerful scope.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say, .30-odd-6, exactly what did you mean by that?

Mr. ROWLAND. That is a rifle that is used quite frequently for deer
hunting. It is an import.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you own any rifles?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; my stepfather does.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever gone hunting deer with such a rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I have.

Mr. SPECTER. And is that a .30-odd-6 rifle that you have hunted deer
with?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that a popular size of rifle in the Dallas, Tex., area?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know about Dallas. I do know in Oregon it is one
of the most popular for deer hunting.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the rifle which you observed similar to, or perhaps
identical with, .30-odd rifles which you have seen before?

Mr. ROWLAND. The best I could tell it was of that size.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you seen such .30-odd rifles before at close range
which had telescopic sights?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; one my stepfather has has a very powerful scope on it.

Mr. SPECTER. And did this rifle appear similar to the one your
stepfather owned?

Mr. ROWLAND. From my distance, I would say very similar or of similar
manufacture.

Mr. SPECTER. In what manner was the rifle being held by the man whom
you observed?

Mr. ROWLAND. The way he was standing it would have been in a position
such as port arms in military terms.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say port arms you have positioned your left hand
with the left elbow of your hand being about level with your shoulder
and your right hand----

Mr. ROWLAND. Not quite level with my shoulder, and the right hand being
lower on the trigger of the stock.

Mr. SPECTER. So the waist of the imaginary rifle you would be holding
would cross your body at about a 45-degree angle.

Mr. ROWLAND. That is correct.

Mr. SPECTER. How long was the rifle held in that position?

Mr. ROWLAND. During the entire time that I saw him there.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him hold it in any other position?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, I didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. For example, was he standing at any time in a parade-rest
position?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; not to my knowledge.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe, as best you can, the appearance of the
individual whom you saw?

Mr. ROWLAND. He was rather slender in proportion to his size. I
couldn't tell for sure whether he was tall and maybe, you know heavy,
say 200 pounds, but tall whether he would be and slender or whether he
was medium and slender, but in proportion to his size his build was
slender.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you give us an estimate on his height?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I couldn't. That is why I said I can't state what
height he would be. He was just slender in build in proportion with his
width. This is something I find myself doing all the time, comparing
things in perspective.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he a white man or a Negro or what?

Mr. ROWLAND. Seemed, well, I can't state definitely from my position
because it was more or less not fully light or bright in the room. He
appeared to be fair complexioned, not fair, but light complexioned, but
dark hair.

Mr. SPECTER. What race was he then?

Mr. ROWLAND. I would say either a light Latin or a Caucasian.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you able to observe any characteristics of his
hair?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; except that it was dark, probably black.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe whether he had a full head of
hair or any characteristic as to quantity of hair?

Mr. ROWLAND. It didn't appear as if he had a receding hairline but I
know he didn't have it hanging on his shoulders. Probably a close cut
from--you know it appeared to me it was either well-combed or close cut.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe as to the clothes he
was wearing?

Mr. ROWLAND. He had on a light shirt, a very light-colored shirt, white
or a light blue or a color such as that. This was open at the collar.
I think it was unbuttoned about halfway, and then he had a regular
T-shirt, a polo shirt under this, at least this is what it appeared to
be. He had on dark slacks or blue jeans, I couldn't tell from that. I
didn't see but a small portion.

Mr. SPECTER. You say you only saw a small portion of what?

Mr. ROWLAND. Of his pants from his waist down.

Mr. SPECTER. Which half of the window was open, the bottom half or the
top half?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was the bottom half.

Mr. SPECTER. And how much, if any, of his body was obscured by the
window frame from that point down to the floor?

Mr. ROWLAND. From where I was standing I could see from his head to
about 6 inches below his waist, below his belt.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you see as far as his knees?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. And what is your best recollection as to how close to the
window he was standing?

Mr. ROWLAND. He wasn't next to the window, but he wasn't very far back.
I would say 3 to 5 feet back from the window.

Mr. SPECTER. How much of the rifle was separated from your line of
vision by the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. The entire rifle was in my view.

Mr. SPECTER. In the open part of the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And how much of his body, if any, was in the open view
where there was no window between your eyes and the object of his body?

Mr. ROWLAND. Approximately two-thirds of his body just below his waist.

Mr. SPECTER. Up to what point?

Mr. ROWLAND. Mid point between the waist and the knees, this is again
in my proportion to his height that I make that judgment.

Mr. SPECTER. So from the waist, some point between his knees and his
waist, you started to see him clear in the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And from that point how far up his body were you able to
see without any obstruction of a window between you and him?

Mr. ROWLAND. To the top of his head. There was some space on top of
that where I could see the wall behind him.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the space between the top of
his head and the open window at the perspective you were observing?

Mr. ROWLAND. Two and a half, three feet, something on that--that is
something very hard to ascertain. That would just be an estimation on
my part.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else you observed about his appearance
or his clothing or the rifle which you haven't already told us about?

Representative FORD. Was he facing toward you directly?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Representative FORD. In other words, did you get a full view of his
face and his chest and the front of him?

Mr. ROWLAND. He appeared to me as though he were looking out the window
and watching the crowd in particular.

Representative FORD. Excuse me, go ahead.

Mr. ROWLAND. That is all right.

Representative FORD. Was he looking toward the corner of Houston and
Main?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I would say he was looking in the area or the general
vicinity of where I was.

Representative FORD. And you were on the sidewalk on Houston in front
of the building that you have indicated?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. Now, I can't--here again I wasn't close enough to
see his eyes but from the position of his head he was looking in that
general area. It could have been that maybe he was--his eyes were a
little bit off perspective and he was watching that corner, I don't
know.

Representative FORD. In what position did you say his hands were on the
rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. One hand was at what is called the gun stock of the rifle,
just above the trigger, it was around the rifle. The other was at the
other end of the rifle about 4 inches below the end of the stock.

Representative FORD. Was the rifle held above his waist?

Mr. ROWLAND. The majority of it was, just a small portion of butt below
his waist.

Representative FORD. The butt or the end of the rifle, the barrel end?

Mr. ROWLAND. The butt, the stock end, was below his waist. The barrel
being pointed in the air toward the ceiling or the wall next to him.

Representative FORD. I see. The stock was down and the barrel was up.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to form any opinion as to the age of that
man?

Mr. ROWLAND. This is again just my estimation. He was--I think I
remember telling my wife that he appeared in his early thirties. This
could be obscured because of the distance, I mean.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to form any opinion as to the weight of
the man in addition to the line of proportion which you have already
described?

Mr. ROWLAND. I would say about 140 to 150 pounds.

Representative FORD. When did you tell your wife you thought he was in
his thirties?

Mr. ROWLAND. Right after I noticed the man, I brought him to my wife's
attention, and she was looking at something else at that time, we
looked at that, and when we both looked back she wanted to see also,
and he was gone from our vision.

Representative FORD. So she never saw him?

Mr. ROWLAND. My wife never saw him.

Representative FORD. Did you say at that time how old he was or how old
you thought he was?

Mr. ROWLAND. I think I remarked to my wife that he appeared in his
thirties, early thirties.

Mr. SPECTER. When, after you first observed him did you have a
conversation about him with your wife?

Mr. ROWLAND. Right afterwards. There was--just before I observed him
there was a police motorcycle parked just on the street, not in front
of us, just a little past us, and the radio was on it giving the
details of the motorcade, where it was positioned, and right after the
time I noticed him and when my wife was pointing this other thing to
me, I don't remember what that was, the dispatcher came on and gave the
position of the motorcade as being on Cedar Springs. This would be in
the area of Turtle Creek, down in that area.

I can't remember the street's name but I know where it is at. And this
was the position of the motorcade and it was about 15 or 16 after 12.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you tell your wife about the presence of this
man immediately after you saw him?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the quality or condition of her eyes?

Mr. ROWLAND. She has nearsightedness and has to wear glasses.

Mr. SPECTER. Was she wearing glasses at the time?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, she wasn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Based on your knowledge of her eyesight, would it have
been possible for her to have seen him considering your relative
positions?

Mr. ROWLAND. Had he still been there she would have been able to
acknowledge the figure with no description.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you see him there in total point of time?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was all relatively brief, short time, 15 seconds, maybe
20. I was looking at the building, looking at the people hanging out of
the building, I noticed him, my eye contact was at that position for 15
to 20 seconds. This is all relatively very short length of time.

Mr. SPECTER. Now----

Mr. ROWLAND. But a lot can happen in that much time.

Mr. SPECTER. When you saw him, you told her about him, and then did she
look in the direction of the man?

Mr. ROWLAND. After she pointed something else out to me she looked in
that direction.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you then look back toward the direction of, to the
window where you had seen him?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I even pointed to it with my wife.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you look back at the same time she looked back?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And when you looked back what, if anything, did you
observe in the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was nothing there then.

Mr. SPECTER. Following that did you and she have any additional
conversation about this man in the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. We talked about it momentarily, just for a few seconds
that it was of most likelihood a security man, had a very good vantage
point where he could watch the crowds, talked about the rifle, it
looked like a very high-powered rifle.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you mention that to your wife?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you described as fully as you can everything you
discussed with your wife at that juncture?

Mr. ROWLAND. I think so.

Representative FORD. Was there anybody else standing close to you as
you had this conversation with your wife?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was a policeman about as far as me to the flag.

Representative FORD. That is about how many feet, would you say?

Mr. ROWLAND. Twelve, thirteen feet.

Representative FORD. There was no one between you and the policeman in
that line of vision?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

Then there were three or four colored men just behind the elevator, and
a couple on the elevator that had come up through the sidewalk. This
was a distance of--this was on the opposite side of us about 15 feet,
just a little further than the officer.

Representative FORD. There was no one closer to you and your wife than
10 to 15 feet?

Mr. ROWLAND. That is correct. That is one of the main reasons we
selected that spot.

Representative FORD. Did it ever enter your mind that you should go and
tell the policeman of this sight or this vision that you had seen?

Mr. ROWLAND. Really it didn't.

Representative FORD. It never entered your mind?

Mr. ROWLAND. I never dreamed of anything such as that. I mean, I
must honestly say my opinion was based on movies I have seen, on the
attempted assassination of Theodore Roosevelt where they had Secret
Service men up in the building such as that with rifles watching the
crowds, and another one concerned with attempted assassination of the
other one, Franklin Roosevelt, and both of these had Secret Service men
up in windows or on top of buildings with rifles, and this is how my
opinion was based and why it didn't alarm me.

Perhaps if I had been older and had more experience in life it might
have made a difference. It very well could have.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, did the man with the rifle have any
distinctive facial appearance such as a mustache or a prominent scar,
anything of that sort which you could observe?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was nothing dark on his face, no mustache. There
could have been a scar if it hadn't been a dark scar. If it was, you
know, a blotch or such as this, there was nothing very dark about the
color of his face.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, will you recount as precisely and as
specifically as you can, the exact conversation between you and your
wife from the time you first noticed this man until your conversation
about the man concluded, indicating what you said and what she said in
language as closely as you can recollect it?

Mr. ROWLAND. That is a whopper.

I am almost sure I told her or asked her, did she want to see a Secret
Service agent. She said, "Where," and I said, "In the building there,"
and at that time she told me to look--I remember what she was looking
at. Right directly across from us in this plaza in front of the pond
there was a colored boy that had an epileptic fit or something of this
type right then, and she pointed this out to me and there were a couple
of officers there and a few moments later they called an ambulance,
this is what she told me to look at then, and we looked at this for a
short period of time, and then I told her to look in the building, the
second floor from the top and on that end, the two open windows, is I
think what I said, and I said, "He is not there now."

I think that is what I said. She said, "What did he look like," and I
told her just that--I gave her more or less a brief description of what
he looked like, open collared shirt, light-colored shirt, and he had a
rifle, I described the rifle in as much detail as I have to you to her.

Mr. SPECTER. You described the rifle to her in as much detail as you
have to us?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

And then she said something about wishing she could have seen him but
he was probably somewhere else in another part of the building watching
people now. Then we were discussing again, just preceding that we
were discussing the event with Mr. Stevenson, this was about 2 weeks
beforehand, this was fresh on our mind, and right after that we started
discussing that it was a security man.

We were looking around, we became very security conscious. We noted
that policemen, I think there were maybe 2, maybe 3 on the viaduct
itself; some 20 or 30, I would say 20 to 25 policemen being in that
immediate area.

Representative FORD. About what time, as you can best recollect, did
this conversation with your wife take place?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 5 minutes until about 22 after. I think I again
looked at my watch.

Representative FORD. After you and your wife looked up and saw that
there was no one in the window, did you ever again look at the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did, constantly.

Representative FORD. And as you looked at the window subsequently did
you ever see anything else in the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; not in that window, and I looked back every few
seconds, 30 seconds, maybe twice a minute, occasionally trying to find
him so I could point him out to my wife.

Something I would like to note is that the window that I have been told
the shots were actually fired from, I did not see that, there was
someone hanging out that window at that time.

Representative FORD. At what time was that?

Mr. ROWLAND. At the time I saw the man in the other window, I saw this
man hanging out the window first. It was a colored man, I think.

Representative FORD. Is this the same window where you saw the man
standing with the rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; this was the one on the east end of the building, the
one that they said the shots were fired from.

Representative FORD. I am not clear on this now. The window that you
saw the man that you describe was on what end of the building?

Mr. ROWLAND. The west, southwest corner.

Representative FORD. And the man you saw hanging out from the window
was at what corner?

Mr. ROWLAND. The east, southeast corner.

Representative FORD. Southeast corner. On the same floor?

Mr. ROWLAND. On the same floor.

Representative FORD. When did you notice him?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was before I noticed the other man with the rifle.

Representative FORD. I see. This was before you saw the man in the
window with the rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. My wife and I were both looking and making remarks
that the people were hanging out the windows. I think the majority of
them were colored people, some of them were hanging out the windows to
their waist, such as this. We made several remarks to this fact, and
then she started watching the colored boy, and I continued to look, and
then I saw the man with the rifle.

Representative FORD. After 12:22 or thereabouts you indicated you
periodically looked back at the window in the southwest corner where
you had seen the man with the rifle. What happened as the motorcade
came along?

Mr. ROWLAND. As the motorcade came along, there was quite a bit of
excitement. I didn't look back from then. I was very interested in
trying to see the President myself. I had seen him twice before but I
was interested in seeing him again.

Representative FORD. Did you notice a sedan come by with any officials
in it at the outset of the motorcade?

Mr. ROWLAND. The first car in the motorcade was, I think it was, a
white or cream-colored Ford. This appeared to be full of detectives or
such as this; rather husky men, large men.

I think there were four in this car.

Representative FORD. Was this an open or a closed car?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was a sedan, the doors were closed.

Representative FORD. What was the next car you noticed?

Mr. ROWLAND. The next car was the President's car.

Representative FORD. Did you notice again or did you look again during
this period of time at the School Depository Building?

Mr. ROWLAND. No. From where we were standing the motorcade came down
Main, and when it turned on Houston we watched the motorcade, my wife
remarked at Jackie's clothing, Mrs. Kennedy, and we made a few remarks
of her clothing and how she looked, her appearance in general, and we
also discussed--we didn't immediately recognize Governor Connally and
his wife being in the car, we were trying to figure out who that was.

Then the motorcade turned on Elm and was obscured from our vision by
a crowd, and we were discussing the clothing of Mrs. Kennedy at that
time. My wife likes clothes.

Representative FORD. You never again, after the motorcade once came
into your view, looked back at the School Depository Building?

Mr. ROWLAND. I did after the shots were fired.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you finished telling us all about the conversation
between you and your wife concerning this man?

Mr. ROWLAND. To the best of my recollection, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

You have described seeing someone in another window hanging out. Would
you draw a circle and put an "A" beside the window where you say you
saw someone hanging out. That is on Exhibit No. 356.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time was it that you observed someone
hanging out of the window that you have marked as window "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Again about 12:15 just before I noticed the other man.

Mr. SPECTER. You have marked the double window there. Would you draw
the arrow in the red pencil indicating specifically which window it was.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe with as much particularity as you can
what that man looked like?

Mr. ROWLAND. It seemed to me an elderly Negro, that is about all. I
didn't pay very much attention to him.

Mr. SPECTER. At or about that time did you observe anyone else hanging
out any window or observe any one through any window on the same floor
where you have drawn the two circles on Exhibit 356?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; no one else on that floor.

Mr. SPECTER. You testified before that there were other windows where
you had seen people hanging out, is that correct?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us and indicate on the picture, Exhibit
356, to the best of your ability to recollect just which those windows
were?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was either two or three people in this window.

Mr. SPECTER. Mark that with a "B" if you would, please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. ROWLAND. Those pair of windows. I think this was all on that floor.

Here on this floor.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the second floor?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Circle the windows and mark it with a "C" if you will.

Mr. ROWLAND. I think it was this pair immediately over the door, and
this pair.

Mr. SPECTER. Mark one "C" and one "D," if you will.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. ROWLAND. Here I know there were two Negro women, I think.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating window "C." You say two Negro women?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And were those women each in one window, both in one
window or what?

Mr. ROWLAND. They were one in each window. Then at the window "D" there
was one, one window open.

Mr. SPECTER. Which was that, indicate that by an arrow, if you please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. ROWLAND. The one on the west side, and this appeared to have two
heads just inside the window, no one hanging out the window as with the
others.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anyone else hanging out the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was someone on the third floor. I think it was--wait
a minute--yes, the third floor had three adjoining sets of windows that
were open. They were all open to the fullest extent they would open.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you mark those "E," "F" and "G," please.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any people in those windows marked "E,"
"F," and "G"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, and this pair, "E," both windows were open, and there
appeared to be one man in the eastern window.

Mr. SPECTER. Which you have now marked with an arrow.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How about as to window marked "F"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Both windows were completely up, and there appeared to
be several people in that window, four or five, a number that I don't
remember, you know I couldn't see all of them.

Mr. SPECTER. How about window "G"?

Mr. ROWLAND. This again, both windows were open all of the way and I
think there was one person in each window.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe any other people either through any other
window or hanging out of any other window in the building?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was no one in the fourth floor to my knowledge, to
my recollection.

There were what appeared to be secretaries, several young white girls
or ladies, standing on the steps of the building in this general area.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the door of the building.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. ROWLAND. And there was no one else in there, except I think there
was a policeman in front of the door on the sidewalk.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you described everybody you have observed, with
respect to everybody hanging out the windows?

Mr. ROWLAND. To the best of my recollection.

Mr. SPECTER. Or anybody you could see through the windows?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. As to the window which you have marked "A", that double
pair of windows, which, if either or both, was open?

Mr. ROWLAND. The one on the eastern side was open and not all of the
way it would open.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the one you have marked with an arrow?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How much of that window was open?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was open about that far.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating 2-1/2 feet?

Mr. ROWLAND. Two feet.

Mr. SPECTER. Two feet.

Mr. ROWLAND. Indicating 2 feet. It looked like the windows might open
3--two-thirds or three-fourths of the distance.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the other of the windows in the double-set
marked "A," was that completely closed?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the windows in the group marked "B," was either
of those windows open?

Mr. ROWLAND. They were both completely open.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe with any more particularity the people
you saw in the window which you have marked "B"?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was a white man hanging out either "G" or "B," I do
not remember which. He was the only white man, besides the man in these
windows that I saw----

Mr. SPECTER. When you said "these windows" you mean the first window
you marked with a black circle and a black arrow?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else you can tell us about the people
you saw in window "B"?

Mr. ROWLAND. I think to the best of my recollection there was either
two or three people in window "B," and as I stated before, either "B"
or "G" had a white man in the window. I do not remember which. I do
remember it was one of the windows on the corner.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect if the other people in window "B" were
white or Negro?

Mr. ROWLAND. They were Negro.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you have any occasion to look back at window "A"
from the time you saw the man whom you described as a Negro gentleman
in that window until the President's procession passed by?

Mr. ROWLAND. Well, up until the time the procession was----

(Short recess.)

Representative FORD. I suggest, Mr. Specter, we resume the hearing.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you read the last question, Mr. Reporter, please.

(Question read.)

Mr. SPECTER. Would you like to start the question again or would you
like the question repeated?

Mr. ROWLAND. I understand the question.

Let me see, the exact time I do not remember, but the man, the colored
man, was in that window until the procession reached Commerce--I mean
Main, and Ervay. I was looking back quite often, as I stated.

Mr. SPECTER. How do you fix the time that he was there until the
procession reached the intersection of Commerce and Ervay?

Mr. ROWLAND. The police motorcycle was almost in front of me with the
speaker on very loud, giving the relative position about every 15 or 20
seconds of the motorcade, and this is how I was able to note that.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you observing the window which you marked "A" at the
time he departed?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, I didn't. I just know, I was looking at the crowd
around, and then I glanced back up again, and neither did I see the man
with the rifle nor did I see him. The colored man went away.

Mr. SPECTER. How long was that after you first noticed the colored man
in the window "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Fifteen minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you looked back at window "A" at any time during that
15 minute interval?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you seen anybody in window "A" during that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. The colored man was that----

Mr. SPECTER. So how many times did you notice him altogether?

Mr. ROWLAND. Several. I think I looked back about two, maybe three
times a minute, an average. I was, you know, trying to find the man
with the rifle to point him out to my wife. I noticed the colored man
in that window. I looked at practically every window in the building
but I didn't look at anything with the detail to see what I was looking
for.

Mr. SPECTER. Over how long a time span did you observe the Negro man to
be in the window marked "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. He was there before I noticed the man with the rifle and
approximately 12:30 or when the motorcade was at Main and Ervay he was
gone when I looked back and I had looked up there about 30 seconds
before or a minute before.

Mr. SPECTER. How long after you heard the motorcade was at Main and
Ervay did the motorcade pass by where you were?

Mr. ROWLAND. Another 5 minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. So that you observed this colored man on the window you
have marked "A" within 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade passed
in front of you?

Mr. ROWLAND. Approximately 5 minutes prior to the time the motorcade
came, he wasn't there. About 30 seconds or a minute prior to that time
he was there.

Mr. SPECTER. A few moments ago in your testimony you stated that in
observing policemen in the area you had observed some officers on the
overpass?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how far were you from the overpass at that
time?

Mr. ROWLAND. 125 yards approximately.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe with clarity the individuals who
were standing on the overpass?

Mr. ROWLAND. Not with detailed distinction. I do remember there were
three women there, two or three men, a couple of boys, and two officers
on the overpass itself.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you identify the officers as being policemen?

Mr. ROWLAND. They were uniformed officers.

Mr. SPECTER. What kind of uniforms were they wearing?

Mr. ROWLAND. Blue; I think trimmed in gold, uniforms.

Mr. SPECTER. Are those the regular uniforms worn by the Dallas police?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you standing at the time you observed the
people on the overpass whom you have just described?

Mr. ROWLAND. Position "B."

Mr. SPECTER. At about what time was it when you observed those
individuals?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was between the time between 12:15 and 12:30. I think
I looked more than once.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times did you look?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know really. I was more or less scanning the crowd.

Mr. SPECTER. Did the individuals present on the triple overpass change
at the various times when you looked in that direction?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't think so. I don't think anyone went off who was up
there or anyone else went on.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you now relate what occurred as the Presidential
motorcade passed by you?

Mr. ROWLAND. Well, the car turned the corner at Houston and Main.
Everyone was rushing, pressing the cars, trying to get closer. There
were quite a few people, you know, trying to run alongside of the car
such as this; officers were trying to prevent this. The car turned--we
had more or less a long period of time that they were within our sight
considering some of the other people.

The car went down Houston, again turned on Elm, and it was proceeding
down Elm when we heard the first of the reports. This I passed off
as a backfire, so did practically everyone in the area because gobs
of people, when I say gobs, I mean almost everyone in the vicinity,
started laughing that couldn't see the motorcade. The motorcade was
obscured from our vision by the crowd.

Mr. SPECTER. What would the occasion be for laughter on the sound of a
backfire?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't know. A lot of people laughed. I don't know. But
a lot of people laughed, chuckled, such as this. Then approximately 5
seconds, 5 or 6 seconds, the second report was heard, 2 seconds the
third report. After the second report, I knew what it was, and----

Mr. SPECTER. What was it?

Mr. ROWLAND. I knew that it was a gun firing.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you know that?

Mr. ROWLAND. I have been around guns quite a bit in my lifetime.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the sound of the fire different from the first and
second sounds you described?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, that is just it. It did not sound as though there was
any return fire in that sense.

Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by return fire?

Mr. ROWLAND. That anyone fired back. You know, anyone in the procession
such as our detectives or Secret Service men fired back at anything
else. It gave the report of a rifle which most of the Secret Service
men don't carry in a holster although I am sure they had some in the
cars but the following two shots were the same report being of the
same intensity. I state, because from a different position I know that
the same rifle is not going to make the same sound in two different
positions especially in a position such as it was, because of the
ricocheting of sound and echo effects.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your basis for saying that, Mr. Rowland, that the
rifle would not make the same sound in two different positions?

Mr. ROWLAND. This is due to a long study of sound and study of echo
effects.

Mr. SPECTER. When had you conducted that study?

Mr. ROWLAND. In physics in the past 3 years.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you read any special books on that subject?

Mr. ROWLAND. Quite a few.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect any of the titles and authors?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you take any special courses which would give you
insight into that subject matter?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was more or less on my own initiative. The instructor
gave me help and aided me when I requested this during my off periods
of class.

Mr. SPECTER. What instructor was that?

Mr. ROWLAND. His name was Foster.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall his first name?

Mr. ROWLAND. Sam.

Mr. SPECTER. And at what school does he teach?

Mr. ROWLAND. He teaches at Crozier Tech, Downtown Technical High School.

Mr. SPECTER. Is he still there?

Mr. ROWLAND. To my knowledge.

Mr. SPECTER. How recently did you have a course with him?

Mr. ROWLAND. Last year, last school year.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the second sound by comparison with the
first sound which you have described as being similar to a backfire?

Mr. ROWLAND. The second to my recollection was identical or as closely
as could be.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the third shot?

Mr. ROWLAND. The same.

Mr. SPECTER. Sounded the same to you?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any impression or reaction as to the point of
origin when you heard the first noise?

Mr. ROWLAND. Well, I began looking, I didn't look at the building
mainly, and as practically any of the police officers that were there
then will tell you, the echo effect was such that it sounded like it
came from the railroad yards. That is where I looked, that is where all
the policemen, everyone, converged on the railroads.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say railroad yards, what area are you referring
to? Identify it on Commission Exhibit No. 354, for example?

Mr. ROWLAND. In this area in here.

Now most of the officers converged on this area----

Mr. SPECTER. When you say "in here," I will get a black pencil here and
see if we can draw a circle around the area where you have described
the echo effect?

Mr. ROWLAND. The echo effect felt as though it came from this general
vicinity.

Mr. SPECTER. Mark that with the letter "C" in the center of your circle.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as to the second shot, did you have any impression as
to the point of origin or source?

Mr. ROWLAND. The same point or very close to it.

Mr. SPECTER. And how about the third shot?

Mr. ROWLAND. Very close to the same position.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you look, if you recall, after you heard the
first shot, in what direction?

Mr. ROWLAND. We were standing here at position "B." At the sound of the
second report, I proceeded across the street. My wife was very anxious
to find out what was going on. I proceeded to cross the street like
this.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating you were--she was pulling you ahead?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. She was very anxious to find out what was going on.

Mr. SPECTER. That was at the sound of the second report?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, it was.

Mr. SPECTER. And will you mark with this black pencil, with the letter
"D," where you went to, as she pulled you across the street?

Mr. ROWLAND. We crossed the street in this area, proceeded down the
sidewalk, around here, there was quite a bit of crowd, people were
running.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you at the time that you heard the second
report?

Mr. ROWLAND. At the second report we were approximately at the curb,
out from the curb, we were off the sidewalk.

Mr. SPECTER. At point "V"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the third shot, where were you then?

Mr. ROWLAND. At the third shot I was in this vicinity halfway to where
we crossed the street to the end of the block.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you indicate with the letter "D" where you were at
the time of the third shot?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you look when you heard the third report?

Mr. ROWLAND. Well, we were trying to actually see the President's car,
that is what my wife was trying to do, and then I decided I might as
well give in to her.

Mr. SPECTER. After the shots occurred, did you ever look back at the
Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I did not. In fact, I went over toward the scene of
the railroad yards myself.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you not look back at the Texas School Book
Depository Building in view of the fact that you had seen a man with a
rifle up there earlier in the day?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember. It was mostly due to the confusion, and
then the fact that it sounded like it came from this area "C," and that
all the officers, enforcement officers, were converging on that area,
and I just didn't pay any attention to it at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. How many officers were converging on that area, to the
best of your ability to recollect and estimate?

Mr. ROWLAND. I think it would be a very good estimation of 50, maybe
more.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how fast the President's automobile was
driving as it proceeded in front of you when you were standing at
position "B"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Very slow pace, 5, 10 miles an hour.

Mr. SPECTER. When, if at all, did you first report what you had
observed in the Texas School Book Depository Building about the man
with the rifle to anyone in an official position?

Mr. ROWLAND. That was approximately 15 minutes after the third report
that I went to an officer, he was a plainclothesman who was there
combing the area, close to position "C," looking for footprints and
such as this, some lady said someone jumped off one of the colonnades
and started running, there was an officer looking in this area for
footprints and such as this.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that lady ever identified to you?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I do not remember his name. He introduced himself and
showed me his ID.

Mr. SPECTER. I mean the lady you talked about.

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Now as to the officer to whom you made a report, was he a
State, City or Federal official, if you know?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was a Dallas detective.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you give him a statement or what procedure did he
follow?

Mr. ROWLAND. It happened such as this: He was looking in this area for
footprints or any visible marks. I started looking around also. I found
a fountain pen that someone had probably dropped during the confusion
or fell out of their pocket when they fell on the ground or such. I
picked it up and handed it to him. I had on gloves, I wasn't to mess up
the fingerprints because it very possibly could have fallen out of the
pocket of the man who supposedly had jumped down.

Mr. SPECTER. You were wearing gloves on that day?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it a chilly day?

Mr. ROWLAND. The sun was shining, it was a fair day but the wind was
blowing and it was breezy.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it cold enough to have gloves?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I had on my overcoat and my wife had a fairly heavy
coat.

Mr. SPECTER. Proceed, and tell us what you did.

Mr. ROWLAND. I handed this pen to the officer and I started thinking
and I went to him and told him again just before the motorcade came
I saw a man in the building with a rifle, and he immediately took me
to Sheriff Decker which, in turn, asked two other deputies to take
me to his office. We went there to his office. There was quite a few
reporters around, such as this. They took my wife and I to a back room
and shut us off completely from the reporters and everyone. There was
no one in that room for 4 hours but this sheriff and a FBI agent, Agent
Sorrels, and a stenographer, and I think another lady and a man that
had seen another man carrying a rifle in a case on the other end of
town earlier prior to this time.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure there was a court reporter present?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was one of the secretaries from the office of the
sheriff, stenographer who was taking, using an electric typewriter
every time.

Mr. SPECTER. Was she taking down in shorthand----

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. As you could observe----

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Each word that you were saying?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did she have any sort of a machine, such as a stenograph,
as the gentleman who is serving as court reporter has?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; she took it down in shorthand and retyped it on an
electric typewriter that she brought into the room.

Mr. SPECTER. Did she type up what you had said?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; typed up three or four copies and then I signed it at
that time.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a photostatic copy of what purports to
be an affidavit which you gave to the Sheriff's Department of the
County of Dallas, Tex., on November 22, 1963, and has been marked as
Commission Exhibit No. 357. Would you take a look at that, take your
time, of course, and tell us whether or not that is the affidavit which
you took on the occasion which you have just related?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. In fact, at this time I also noted that my wife
dragged me across the street.

Mr. SPECTER. Just one detail on that statement: There is a reference
here to the man holding the rifle being in a position which you
describe as "a parade-rest sort of position." That appears----

Mr. ROWLAND. It does appear in there?

Mr. SPECTER. Eighteen lines down.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I see it. It wasn't a parade-rest position. It was
a port-arms position. I never noticed that in there before. There
were--actually, I will say this, I said what I had to say. The FBI
agent reworded it, and she took it down.

Now this happened; it wasn't my words verbatim, it was reworded.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever use the words "parade-rest" position?

Mr. ROWLAND. Not to my recollection.

Mr. SPECTER. So it is just an error in transcription which you did not
notice when you signed it.

(At this point, Chief Justice Warren entered the hearing room.)

Is there any other aspect of the affidavit which you gave, which you
have just observed, which is at variance with your current recollection
of what you saw and heard on that date?

Mr. ROWLAND. Here it states we were at the west entrance of the
sheriff's office, that is just a general approximation, we were 25 feet
from there, in fact.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other portions of it which vary from your
current recollection?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember saying definitely that he was back about
15 feet. In fact, I think I said, as I said now, 3 to 5 feet, because
from my point of view if he was back 15 feet I couldn't have even seen
him.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other parts of the affidavit which vary from
your current recollection?

Mr. ROWLAND. The actual time between the reports I would say now, after
having had time to consider the 6 seconds between the first and second
report and two between the second and third. It is very fast for a
bolt-loading rifle.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether or not the statement is accurate in
that you told the police officials at that time that there was a time
span of 8 seconds between the first and second shots and a time span of
3 seconds between the second and third shots?

Mr. ROWLAND. I think I did tell them that, yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And with respect to the facts which appear in the
statement that you said the man was standing about 15 feet back
from the windows, did you actually tell them that when you made the
statement, or is that an error of transcription?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't think I said that.

Mr. SPECTER. Now are there any other points where the affidavit is at
variance from your current recollection?

Mr. ROWLAND. The time that it states here, we arrived in downtown
Dallas at approximately 12:10. Actually we arrived before 12 but we
took the position that we have, approximately 12:10, that position "V"
on this other Exhibit 354.

Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other variances between your current
recollection and this statement?

Mr. ROWLAND. I do not think so.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell the police officials at the time you made
this statement that there was a Negro gentleman in the window on the
southwest corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building which you
have marked with a circle "A"--pardon me, southeast?

Mr. ROWLAND. At that time, no. However, the next day on Saturday there
were a pair of FBI officers, agents out at my home, and they took
another handwritten statement from me which I signed again, and this
was basically the same. At that time I told them I did see the Negro
man there and they told me it didn't have any bearing or such on the
case right then. In fact, they just the same as told me to forget it
now.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Reporter, will you please repeat that last answer for
us?

(Answer read.)

Mr. SPECTER. I am now handing you a document which I have marked as
Commission Exhibit No. 358, which purports to be a reproduction of a
statement which was purportedly given by you to the FBI, two agents of
that Bureau.

Will you take a look at that and tell us if that is the statement which
you gave to the FBI to which you just referred?

Mr. ROWLAND. Again, I have a variance of time and a variance of
distance that he was from the window.

Mr. SPECTER. Before you direct your attention to those factors, Mr.
Rowland, are you able to tell us whether or not this is the statement
which you gave to the FBI?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes. My wife was with me when I gave the statement.

Mr. SPECTER. And without looking at the statement which, may the record
show, you are not now doing, do you recollect the names of the FBI,
don't look there, just tell me if you can recollect without seeing
their names on the statement?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I talked to seven different pairs of FBI agents
and I don't remember their names.

Mr. SPECTER. Seven different pairs?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes, sir; I had--this is only one of the statements. They
came to my home or where I worked and took three more besides this one.
There were four handwritten statements that I signed.

Mr. SPECTER. Before getting the details on those, tell me in what
respect, if any, the statement which we have identified as Commission
Exhibit No. 358 differs from what you told the FBI agents at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. I do not think it differs.

Mr. SPECTER. Then that statement accurately reflects what you said at
that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I am sure it does.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, in what respects, if any, does that statement vary
from your current recollection about the facts which are contained
therein?

Mr. ROWLAND. The time factor, the time that we arrived in town. Here
again it states 12:10. Now this is the time that we arrived at the
position that we stayed at, not the time we arrived in town, and the
distance the man was back from the window. Here it states 12 to 15
feet. I do not remember saying that although I very well could have.
Everything was confusing.

Mr. SPECTER. But what is your current recollection on the distance that
the man was back from the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. Three to four, five feet, somewhere in that neighborhood.
He wasn't very far. Far enough for the sunlight to hit him and at the
angle the sun was that wouldn't be very far.

Mr. SPECTER. Now noticing that the date on that statement is November
24, 1963, does that appear to you to be the date when that statement
was taken, or was it taken on the 23d, the day after the assassination?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was Saturday morning, the 24th.

Mr. SPECTER. On what day was the assassination?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was Thursday, wasn't it?

Mr. SPECTER. No; the assassination occurred on Friday.

Mr. ROWLAND. I am sorry, that is right. It is so confused in this.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, was the statement taken the second day after the
assassination or the morning of the first day after the assassination?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; it was taken on Saturday morning before I went to work
because on Sunday there was another statement taken from me at my job
where I was working. This occurred right after Oswald was shot himself.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, are you able to identify that statement which we
have marked Exhibit 358, as the statement taken on Saturday, the 23d,
as distinguished from the statement taken on Sunday, the 24th of
November?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How can you be certain of that, Mr. Rowland?

Mr. ROWLAND. The one on Sunday, this particular one, I do remember the
agent used a legal pad. He did have three pages of it handwritten. I
made corrections on this in different parts of it. The one on Sunday
was not a legal pad. It was a steno pad and it, in fact, covered a page
and a half, I think, and it was concerned with mainly could I identify
the man that I saw, his description.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, at the time you made the Saturday statement, which
you say was transcribed and appears as Exhibit 358, did you at that
time tell the interviewing FBI agents about the colored gentleman who
you testified was in the window which you marked with an "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you ask them at that time to include the information
in the statement which they took from you?

Mr. ROWLAND. No. I think I told them about it after the statement, as
an afterthought, an afterthought came up, it came into my mind. I also
told the agents that took a statement from me on Sunday. They didn't
seem very interested, so I just forgot about it for a while.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that information included in the written portion of
the statement which was taken from you on Sunday?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, it wasn't. It shouldn't but the agent deleted it
though himself, I mean I included it in what I gave.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say deleted it, did he strike it out after
putting it in, or did he omit it in the transcription?

Mr. ROWLAND. Omitted it.

Senator COOPER. I think you said a while ago that when you told the FBI
agents on Saturday that you had seen this Negro man in the window, that
they indicated to you that they weren't interested in it at all. What
did they say which gave you that impression?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember exactly what was said. The context was
again the agents were trying to find out if I could positively identify
the man that I saw. They were concerned mainly with this, and I brought
up to them about the Negro man after I had signed the statement, and at
that time he just told me that they were just trying to find out about
or if anyone could identify the man who was up there. They just didn't
seem interested at all. They didn't pursue the point. They didn't take
it down in the notation as such.

Mr. SPECTER. It was more of the fact that they didn't pursue it, didn't
include it?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Or that they said something which led you to believe they
were not interested?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was just the fact they didn't pursue it. I mean, I
just mentioned that I saw him in that window. They didn't ask me, you
know, if was this at the same time or such. They just didn't seem very
interested in that at all.

Mr. WRIGHT. By man who was up there you mean man with the rifle?

Mr. ROWLAND. They were interested in the man with the rifle, and
finding out if anyone could identify him. The other man was the colored
man in the other window.

Representative FORD. A minute ago you indicated that you could see
the man in the window with the rifle because of the light conditions,
I think you referred to the sun shining in that direction toward the
building. Was the sun bright, do you recall that at all?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; the sun was out, somewhat bright. I didn't have any
sunglasses on at that time because I had broken them the week before,
and I hadn't gotten any new ones. The sun was shining in from what I
could tell he was standing where I seen him through the window on my
right. This would be the east window of the pair. It appeared as though
the sun were shining in through either a window on the other side of
the building, on the west side of the building, or possibly the western
pair, one of the pair. This sun was--that hit him about from the
shoulders down as far as I could see, that is why I was able to tell
the rifle was of the type or such that it was.

Representative FORD. As you faced the window, as you faced the
building, the sun was shining over which shoulder, to your left or your
right shoulder?

Mr. ROWLAND. As I faced the building the sun was shining--well, I would
have been facing the building if the building were in this direction
more or less this way and the sun would have been shining from this
area.

Representative FORD. Over your left shoulder?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; forward.

Representative FORD. That is all.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to identify the man whom you saw in the
window with the rifle for the FBI agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they have pictures with them at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. I have seen three pictures of Lee Harvey Oswald, two of
them in the paper. They had a morning newspaper was all they had. It
wasn't a very good picture, and I couldn't tell. I didn't know, I
wasn't going to say because I didn't, I mean. I just couldn't identify
him. I wouldn't be--I had already resigned myself not to be given that
task, because I couldn't definitely say any one man was that man.

Mr. SPECTER. And what was the basis of your concluding, as you put it,
that you resigned yourself to that task?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was because I just didn't have a good enough look at
his face.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that your conclusion at this moment that you are
unable to identify, with precision and certainty, the man whom you saw
holding the rifle in the window of the Texas School Book Depository
Building?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is true.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you believe that you could identify the Negro gentleman
in window "A" whom you testified you saw?

Mr. ROWLAND. I would have to say perhaps. I can't say for sure.

Mr. SPECTER. A moment ago you testified that you gave statements
to seven different pairs of FBI agents. Have you already testified
about three of those occasions, or, stated differently, start at the
beginning and tell us, as best you can recollect, what were those
occasions, when they occurred, where you were when you had those
meetings with the seven different pairs of agents.

Mr. ROWLAND. The first statement I gave was in the sheriff's office on
that date.

Mr. SPECTER. Were there two FBI agents present?

Mr. ROWLAND. I think there were.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you recollect their names?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. When was the second occasion?

Mr. ROWLAND. The Saturday morning.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was that statement given?

Mr. ROWLAND. That was in the agent's car in front of my mother-in-law's
house.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect the identities of those FBI agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, I do not.

Mr. SPECTER. That is the statement you have identified as being
reproduced in Commission Exhibit 358?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, when was the third statement obtained?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was Sunday morning, the following day, November 25.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was that statement obtained?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was at my place of employment at the Pizza Inn.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, Sunday after the assassination would have been the
24th.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is right, I am sorry, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you certain of the day of the week, however?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I am certain of that because I went to work at noon
on Sunday and they were there when I got to work, they were waiting on
me.

Mr. SPECTER. That is the statement which you described as having been
taken on a stenopad?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign that statement?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did. This was in the presence of my wife because
she was there.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect the identity of those FBI agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I do not, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When was the fourth statement taken?

Mr. ROWLAND. The fourth was Tuesday night of that week.

Mr. SPECTER. Of the following week?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was that statement taken?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was at my mother-in-law's house, and----

Mr. SPECTER. Was that reduced to writing?

Mr. ROWLAND. That was merely one paragraph. They were concerned with
identification of the man that I saw.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you tell them essentially at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. The description and that I could not positively identify
him.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign a statement for them at that time?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of those FBI agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Up to this point were any of the FBI agents the same who
had interviewed you and taken statements from you?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All different?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. When did the fifth occasion take place when you were
interviewed by the FBI?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was again where I worked. This was, it was not a
formal written statement. They just took notes on what I said, had me
recount that entire thing to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. SPECTER. When did this occur, the fifth one?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was on the following Friday.

Mr. SPECTER. About what time of the day or night was it?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 8:30 p.m.

Mr. SPECTER. At the Pizza Inn?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; Dallas time.

Mr. SPECTER. And do you recall the identities of those FBI agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Were they the same as any who had ever interviewed you
before?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; none of them are the same.

Mr. SPECTER. When was the sixth occasion when you were interviewed by
the FBI?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was again on Sunday.

Mr. SPECTER. This would have been November--it would have been December
1st?

Mr. ROWLAND. I don't remember that date but it was----

Mr. SPECTER. The second Sunday after the assassination?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was the sixth interview conducted?

Mr. ROWLAND. This was at the Pizza Inn.

Mr. SPECTER. About what time of the day or night was that?

Mr. ROWLAND. About 1 o'clock. This was again right after I came to work.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the statement taken from you at that time reduced to
writing?

Mr. ROWLAND. It was again informal, just taking notes on my statement,
had me recount what I had told the other agents.

Mr. SPECTER. What were they interested in specifically at that time if
you recall?

Mr. ROWLAND. They just wanted me to recount everything that I could
recall.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the identity of those agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Were they again different agents?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; they were.

Mr. SPECTER. From all those you had seen before?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. When had you given the seventh statement to the FBI?

Mr. ROWLAND. The last statement I gave I think it was to one FBI agent
and a Secret Service Agent.

Mr. SPECTER. When did that occur?

Mr. ROWLAND. That was either Tuesday or Wednesday of the week. I do not
remember which.

Mr. SPECTER. On the week following the Sunday when you gave the sixth
statement?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the identities of those men?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever seen either before?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I hadn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they reduce your statement to writing?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; they just had me recount everything again.

Mr. SPECTER. In addition to the times you have already stated, have you
ever been interviewed by the FBI on any other occasion?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been interviewed by the Secret Service on
any other occasion?

Mr. ROWLAND. The afternoon of the 22d and the seventh time was the only
two times of the Secret Service.

Mr. SPECTER. There was a Secret Service agent present in the sheriff's
office?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; he was Agent Sorrels.

Mr. SPECTER. When you gave the affidavit which we have identified as
Commission Exhibit 357?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. In addition to the times you have mentioned, have you
ever been interviewed by any agent or representative of the Federal
Government?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir; I have not.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any other agent or
representative of the State Government of Texas?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, on any of the other occasions, other than those you
testified about, did you mention seeing the Negro gentleman in the
window which we have circled with the "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, what was the quality of your grades in high
school?

Mr. ROWLAND. Well, up until my senior year they were 4.0 straight A's,
in my senior year I got a couple of B's.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what your IQ or intelligence quotient is?

Mr. ROWLAND. 147.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know when you were tested for that?

Mr. ROWLAND. In 1963; in May.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Rowland, a couple of other questions.

Are you able to give us any other type of a description of the Negro
gentleman whom you observed in the window we marked "A" with respect to
height, weight, age?

Mr. ROWLAND. He was very thin, an elderly gentleman, bald or
practically bald, very thin hair if he wasn't bald. Had on a plaid
shirt. I think it was red and green, very bright color, that is why I
remember it.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us an estimate as to age?

Mr. ROWLAND. Fifty; possibly 55 or 60.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us an estimate as to height?

Mr. ROWLAND. 5'8", 5'10", in that neighborhood. He was very slender,
very thin.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you give us a more definite description as to
complexion?

Mr. ROWLAND. Very dark or fairly dark, not real dark compared to some
Negroes, but fairly dark. Seemed like his face was either--I can't
recall detail but it was either very wrinkled or marked in some way.

Mr. SPECTER. Shortly after the assassination and before these
interviews that you described were completed, Mr. Rowland, had you
learned or heard that the shots were supposed to have come out of the
window which we have marked with the "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. No, sir. I did not know that, in fact until Saturday when
I read the paper.

Mr. SPECTER. Which Saturday is that?

Mr. ROWLAND. The following Saturday.

Mr. SPECTER. Would that be the second day, the day after the
assassination?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, knowing that, at that time, did you attach any
particular significance to the presence of the Negro gentleman, whom
you have described, that you saw in window "A"?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is why I brought it to the attention of the FBI
agents who interviewed me that day. This was as an afterthought because
I did not think of it firsthand. But I did bring it to their attention
before they left, and they----

Mr. SPECTER. That was at the interview on the Saturday morning November
23?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you think it of sufficient significance to bring it
to the attention of any of the other interviewing FBI agents on the
balance of the interviews you have described?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; I did on the following Sunday to the agents who
interviewed me where I worked.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the following Sunday?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, at this time I move for the admission
into evidence of the three exhibits which we have shown this witness.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

Mr. SPECTER. Exhibits Nos. 356, 357, and 358. That completes our
questioning, Your Honor.

(The documents referred to were marked Commission's Exhibits Nos. 356,
357, and 358 for identification and admitted into evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Cooper, have you any questions?

Senator COOPER. You said earlier that you had been much interested in
and pursued studies in sounds, I believe?

Mr. ROWLAND. I have studied quite a bit of electronics, sound. Math and
science is what I like.

Senator COOPER. You said you had read books on this subject. Did you
ever conduct any experiments yourself?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; in the form of--there is a theory that sound is a
basis of a transmitter and a receiver, that you have to have a receiver
to have sound. There is a theory that if a tree falls down in the
middle of a forest and there is nobody around where they can hear it,
there is no sound.

Well, I have conducted experiments on this, and I--it is very
interesting, very fascinating, but you can't prove it or you can't
disprove it because if you have got a microphone there you have got a
receiver.

Senator COOPER. Did you ever conduct any experiments with rifles,
firing a rifle in relation to sound?

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; in a firing range.

Senator COOPER. Beg pardon?

Mr. ROWLAND. Firing range.

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. ROWLAND. I did conduct a few experiments. One of them was firing a
bullet over water; you know, we were using a set of wood blocks to fire
into, so we had a big vat of water that we were firing over, and we
had several different articles and composition floating on the water,
trying to measure the effect of the sound wave upon that. Such as this
we did conduct.

Senator COOPER. I think you did say that when you heard the first
report that you considered it to be a rifle shot?

Mr. ROWLAND. I did, but almost immediately everyone started laughing
so I did not give it any further consideration until the second shot,
second report.

Senator COOPER. At the time you saw a man standing near a window in the
Texas School Book Depository with a rifle, can you state whether there
were any, did you know whether or not any police officers were near you?

Mr. ROWLAND. There was an officer about 20 feet to my left.

Senator COOPER. Did you see any others?

Mr. ROWLAND. There were officers all over, that was the closest one.
There were four or five on the block across the street from me, two of
them being with the boy who had the epileptic fit.

There was also an officer in front of the doors to that building.
There were several on the corners. I would say there were 20 uniformed
officers right there in that 1-1/2-block area.

Senator COOPER. Could any of the officers that you saw whose position
you noted, have seen this window from the place where they were
standing?

Mr. ROWLAND. They could have; yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. You don't remember whether any of them were looking up
there?

Mr. ROWLAND. No; I don't remember whether they were. No; I don't.

Senator COOPER. Did it occur to you that you should speak to the
officer about seeing a man in the window?

Mr. ROWLAND. It has. Do you ever have reoccurring dreams, sir?

Senator COOPER. What?

Mr. ROWLAND. Do you ever have reoccurring dreams?

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. ROWLAND. This is a reoccurring dream of mine, sir, all the time,
what if I had told someone about it. I knew about it enough in advance
and perhaps it could have been prevented. I mean this is something
which shakes me up at times.

Senator COOPER. I don't want to disturb you about that but my point was
at the time did you--I think you said, though, you thought that he was
a--he could have been a--Secret Service man, officer.

Mr. ROWLAND. Yes; that is right.

Senator COOPER. That is all.

The CHAIRMAN. Anything further, Congressman Ford?

Representative FORD. Mr. Rowland, have you ever had occasion to go back
to the scene and reconstruct it? Have you ever gone back----

The CHAIRMAN. Supposing we take a few minutes recess.

Mr. ROWLAND. The answer to that question is yes; I do all the time. I
pass that area very frequently.

The CHAIRMAN. Any other questions, gentlemen, Mr. Wright?

Mr. WRIGHT. No, Your Honor.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well, Mr. Rowland, I want to thank you for coming
here and cooperating with the Commission. I know that this is a matter
that recalls very sordid thoughts to your mind, and I can see how you
would be somewhat distressed about it but you have been very frank and
cooperative with us and I appreciate it.

We will take a short recess.

(Short recess.)


TESTIMONY OF JAMES RICHARD WORRELL, JR.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Will you raise your right hand and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before this
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please.

Mr. Worrell, the purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of
Arnold Louis Rowland, Amos Lee Evins, yourself, and Robert Jackson, who
were in the vicinity of the assassination scene on November 22, 1963.
The Commission proposes to ask you and the other witnesses for facts
concerning your knowledge of the assassination of the President.

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Specter, will you proceed with the examination.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. WORRELL. James Richard Worrell, Jr.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator, will you preside while I answer a phone call to
another member of the Commission?

Mr. SPECTER. What is your address, Mr. Worrell?

Mr. WORRELL. 13510 Winterhaven Drive.

Mr. SPECTER. What city is that?

Mr. WORRELL. In Dallas, it is the Farmers Branch of the suburb of
Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. How long have you resided in Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. WORRELL. About 12 years.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you live before that?

Mr. WORRELL. 3140 Storey Lane.

Mr. SPECTER. And in what city is Storey Lane located?

Mr. WORRELL. Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born?

Mr. WORRELL. Livermore, Calif.

Mr. SPECTER. And how old are you at the present time?

Mr. WORRELL. Twenty.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in California?

Mr. WORRELL. I am not exactly sure. I was a little bitty old thing and
I think it was 2 or 3 years.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you move from California?

Mr. WORRELL. From California we moved to Abilene, I think.

Mr. SPECTER. Abilene, Tex.?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And have you lived in Texas since that time?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your marital status?

Mr. WORRELL. Sir?

Mr. SPECTER. Are you married or single?

Mr. WORRELL. Single, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you live with your parents?

Mr. WORRELL. My mother and sister.

Mr. SPECTER. And how much schooling have you had?

Mr. WORRELL. Eleven years.

Mr. SPECTER. When did you end your schooling, if you have ended it?

Mr. WORRELL. I ended it October of this year, I quit.

Mr. SPECTER. What school were you going to at that time?

Mr. WORRELL. Thomas Jefferson.

Mr. SPECTER. High school?

Mr. WORRELL. High school; yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Located in Dallas, Tex.?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you in the 11th grade or had you completed the
11th grade?

Mr. WORRELL. I was a senior.

Mr. SPECTER. How were your grades in school?

Mr. WORRELL. Average.

(The Chief Justice entered the hearing room at this point.)

Mr. SPECTER. How were you occupied or employed back on November 22,
1963?

Mr. WORRELL. I was in school then. I skipped school to go there.

Mr. SPECTER. You were attending Jefferson High School on that day or
were enrolled at that time?

Mr. WORRELL. I was enrolled but I hadn't been going since October.

Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason for your not going since
October?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Had you been employed anywhere from the time you stopped
going to school?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. I was employed for El Capitan Oil Drilling out
in Kermit, Tex.

Mr. SPECTER. What sort of work were you doing for them?

Mr. WORRELL. I was a floor man on a derrick.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you say floor man?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. On November 22, 1963, were you working on that day for
your employer?

Mr. WORRELL. No. I didn't start this oil job until--it was the last of
January.

Mr. SPECTER. Of 1964?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you working for them at the present time?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Whom are you working for now?

Mr. WORRELL. I am not employed now.

Mr. SPECTER. Then going back to November 22, 1963, you had no job at
that time?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did you attend school that day at all?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you outline for us briefly what your activities were
from the time you awakened until about noon time on November 22?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I got up about, well, I got up at my usual time,
about 6:30. I was going to go to school that day but I decided to go
see the President and my mother left about 7:30, and my sister left
about a quarter of 8. I left about 8, and hitchhiked down to Love Field
and got there. It took me quite a while to get there, about 9, and just
messed around there until the President come in, whatever time that
was. And then I didn't get to see him good at all. So, I caught a bus
and went over, went downtown and I just, I don't know, happened to
pick that place at the Depository, and I stood at the corner of Elm and
Houston.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you leave Love Field before the President did?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Why did you happen to leave Love Field before he left?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, so I could see him better.

Mr. SPECTER. Couldn't you get a good view of him at Love Field?

Mr. WORRELL. No, I just saw him off the plane and I figured that I
wasn't going to see him good so I was going to get a better place to
see him.

Mr. SPECTER. How did you travel from Love Field down to Elm and Houston?

Mr. WORRELL. Bus. No, no; I just traveled so far on the bus. I went
down to Elm, and took a bus from there. I went down as far as, I don't
know where that bus stops, anyway I got close to there and I walked the
rest of the way.

Mr. SPECTER. What time, to the best of your recollection, did you
arrive at the intersection of Elm and Houston?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, about 10, 10:30, 10:45, something around there.
There weren't many people standing around there then.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, about how long before the Presidential motorcade
came to Elm and Houston did you get there?

Mr. WORRELL. An hour; an hour and a half.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure you were at Love Field when the President
arrived there?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now I am going to show you a photograph which I
have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 359. Take a look at that, if you
would, please, and tell us whether or not you can identify what scene
that is?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, this is Elm, Pacific, and Commerce. This is the
Depository right here, and this is Stemmons, and this is the way the
President come down.

Mr. SPECTER. So is that the assassination scene itself?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now take a look at that picture and tell us where you
were standing--and I will give you a pencil so you can mark it on that
picture itself--at the time the Presidential motorcade came by. Mark
it with an "X," if you would, just exactly where you were standing, as
best as you can recollect it, at this moment, at the time the President
went by.

Mr. WORRELL. Right underneath that window right there.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, how close were you standing to this building which I
will ask you to identify; first of all, what building is that?

Mr. WORRELL. That is the Texas Depository.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now how close to that building were you standing?

Mr. WORRELL. I was, I don't know, 4 or 5 feet out from it.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you standing with your face to the building, with
your back to the building, or how?

Mr. WORRELL. My back was to the building.

Mr. SPECTER. I show you a photograph which has been identified as
Commission Exhibit 360 and I will ask you if you can identify what that
building is?

Mr. WORRELL. That is the Depository.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now on this picture will you again, with an "X," mark where you were
standing as closely as you can recollect it.

Mr. WORRELL. That car is in the way.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Put the mark then right above where the car is,
indicating where you were standing on the sidewalk near that building.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you observe the President's motorcade come by?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Describe to us what you saw, heard, and observed at that
time, as the motorcade came by.

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I saw him--I was standing looking--I don't know my
directions very well; anyway, I was looking down towards Elm Street
watching him come, and they filed by me----

Mr. SPECTER. On which street were you watching them come?

Mr. WORRELL. This way.

Mr. SPECTER. Look at Exhibit 359 and pick out which street they were on?

Mr. WORRELL. They were coming down this way, so on and so forth.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, now, were they coming down Elm Street or were they
coming down Main Street with a right-hand turn on to Houston Street
with a curve on Houston down Elm, recollect it if you can?

Mr. WORRELL. That is right. They did turn around.

Mr. SPECTER. Did they come down----

Mr. WORRELL. I didn't see him up there.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was the President's motorcade at the time you first
saw it?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, about right in here.

Mr. SPECTER. Proceeding in this direction, indicating in a generally
northerly direction on Houston Street, right?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, north.

Mr. SPECTER. Then tell us what the President's motorcade did?

Mr. WORRELL. It turned and went down this way.

Mr. SPECTER. Made a left-hand or right-hand turn?

Mr. WORRELL. Left-hand turn.

Mr. SPECTER. Did it pass right by in front of where you were standing?

Mr. WORRELL. Within a hundred feet, I guess.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to get a pretty good view of the President's
motorcade?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right; go ahead and tell us.

Mr. WORRELL. Didn't get too good a view of the President either, I
missed out on there too. But as they went by, they got, oh at least
another 50, 75 feet on past me, and then I heard the shots.

Mr. SPECTER. How many shots did you hear?

Mr. WORRELL. Four.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you observe anything at about that time?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir, I looked up and saw the rifle, but I would say
about 6 inches of it.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you see the rifle?

Mr. WORRELL. I am not going--I am not too sure but I told the FBI it
was either in the fifth or the sixth floor on the far corner, on the
east side.

Mr. SPECTER. Now looking at the picture which we have identified as
Commission Exhibit No. 360, which is where you have drawn an "X," can
you indicate the line of vision which you followed to the point where
the rifle was to the best of your ability to recollect?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, when I heard the first shot it was too loud to be
a firecracker, I knew that, because there was quite a big boom, and I
don't know, just out of nowhere, I looked up like that, just straight
up.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating you looked straight back over your head,
raising your head to look over your body at the 90 degree angle?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes; and I saw it for the second time and I looked back to
the motorcade.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe at that time?

Mr. WORRELL. I saw about 6 inches of the gun, the rifle. It had--well
it had a regular long barrel but it had a long stock and you could only
see maybe 4 inches of the barrel, and I could see----

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe any of the stock?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How much of the stock were you able to observe?

Mr. WORRELL. Just very little, just about 2 inches.

Mr. SPECTER. How many inches of the barrel then could you observe
protruding beyond the stock?

Mr. WORRELL. About 4 inches, I would say, not very much.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, at the time of the second shot were you able to
observe anything at that precise instant?

Mr. WORRELL. You mean as to firing it.

Mr. SPECTER. As to anything at all. What did you see when the second
shot went off?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I looked to see where he was aiming and after the
second shot and I have seen the President slumping down in the seat,
and----

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see the President slump in his seat after the
second shot?

Mr. WORRELL. Uh, huh. And about that----

Mr. SPECTER. Did you look up and see the rifle between the first and
the second shots?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir. And saw the firing on the second and then before
he could get a shot I was--I took in everything but especially the car,
the President's car, and saw him slumping, and I looked up again and
turned around and started running and saw it fire a third time, and
then----

Mr. SPECTER. When did you see it fire a third time, when you looked up,
the time you just described?

Mr. WORRELL. When I was, I did it all in one motion, I looked up,
turned around and ran, pivoted.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you hear, if anything, after that?

Mr. WORRELL. Just a lot of commotion, everybody was screaming and
saying "duck."

Mr. SPECTER. After the third shot, did you hear a fourth shot?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes. Just as I got to the corner of Exhibit 360, I
heard the fourth shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, did these four shots come close together or how
would you describe the timing in general on those?

Mr. WORRELL. Succession.

Mr. SPECTER. Were they very fast?

Mr. WORRELL. They were right in succession.

Mr. SPECTER. Now going back to the position of the rifle which you
testified that you saw, you say it was either on the fifth or sixth
floor?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any way you can tell us which floor it was on, or
would the angle of your observation permit you to be sure it was the
fifth or sixth floors?

Mr. WORRELL. I am not going to say I am positive, but that one there.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, would you mark that one----

Mr. WORRELL. Because that right there, I feel, would have obstructed my
vision but I said it was either on the fifth or sixth floor.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, now, will you mark with a "Y" the window which you
have just pointed to?

(At this point Chief Justice Warren departed the hearing room.)

Mr. WORRELL. A "Y?"

Mr. SPECTER. A "Y."

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. You have marked the "Y" over two windows. Was it the
window--which window was it there as best you can recollect, as between
those two?

Mr. WORRELL. I didn't mean to bring it down that far but this one.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you put an arrow then at the window that you have
just indicated, was the one where the rifle was protruding from?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. So, the sum of it is you are not sure whether it was the
fifth or the sixth floor, but you believe it was on the floor where you
have marked a "Y" which is the sixth floor and that was the line of
vision as you looked straight up over your head?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you run, which is what you have just described
that you did next?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, a better view of it is here in 360. I ran down
Houston Street alongside the building and then crossed over the street,
I ran alongside the building and crossed over, and in 359, I was
standing over here, and I saw this man come bustling out of this door.

Mr. SPECTER. Before you get to that, Mr. Worrell, let me show you a
diagram which has been prepared here, which may be of some assistance
to you in telling us your movements in running. I will mark this as
Commission Exhibit 361 and ask Mr. David Belin, Staff Counsel, to make
a statement as to the preparation of this exhibit for the record.

Mr. BELIN. The record will show that Exhibit 361 was prepared in the
exhibit section of the Federal Bureau of Investigation by Inspector
Leo. J. Gauthier and Eugene Paul Airy, exhibit specialist, with the
assistance of Charles D. Musser, illustrator, with particular reference
to showing the Texas School Book Depository Building, and the immediate
area with relation to the parking lot that employees used.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, take a good look at this. Study it for just
a moment in order to get your bearings on this particular map. This
is the Texas School Book Depository Building designated as such. This
is Houston Street and this is the direction I am indicating that the
motorcade, as you have described from the other exhibit, came from, a
generally northerly direction. This is generally north, and it made the
left-hand turn which you have already described for the record, onto
Elm Street Parkway going down the front there.

Now perhaps the best place to start on this is with this red pencil, to
put a small "X" where you were standing on this map.

Mr. WORRELL. Where I was standing?

Mr. SPECTER. Where you were standing.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now will you describe your movement in running as you had
started to a few moments ago, indicating with a line of the red pencil
just exactly where you went and describe it as you go along.

Mr. WORRELL. Well, as I said on the third shot I was looking up and
pivoting and turning to run at the same time. When I got here I heard
the fourth shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating that you were at that point right at the corner
of the building on Houston?

Mr. WORRELL. Making a turn.

Mr. SPECTER. Having moved slightly to your left, and beginning to make
a turn to go in a generally northerly direction on Houston Street?

Mr. WORRELL. I thought that was north.

Mr. SPECTER. No, this is north, there is a symbol showing which is
north.

Mr. WORRELL. Okay. Then I turned the corner, went right down beside the
building on the sidewalk and when I got to the corner----

Mr. SPECTER. Corner of what?

Mr. WORRELL. Of this building.

Mr. SPECTER. Of the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do there?

Mr. WORRELL. Cut directly across, kind of at an angle.

Mr. SPECTER. Across Houston Street as you have drawn the red line there?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, and I rested there, I was out of breath, I smoke too
much, short winded.

Mr. SPECTER. Will you mark that "Y" where you stopped and rested and
tell us how long you stopped there?

(Witness marking.)

Mr. WORRELL. How long?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.

Mr. WORRELL. I was there approximately 3 minutes before I saw this man
come out the back door here.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now will you put a "Z" where you first saw the man whom you have just
described or mentioned?

Mr. WORRELL. It is here I am pretty sure, I am not positive.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. You are pretty sure--but you can't be positive--but you
are pretty sure?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Okay. Now, describe as best you can the man whom you have
testified you saw at point "Z."

Mr. WORRELL. Describe his appearance?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes. Start by telling us how tall he was, to the best of
your ability to recollect and estimate?

Mr. WORRELL. To the--it is going to be within 3 inches, 5-7 to 5-10.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to his weight?

Mr. WORRELL. 155 to 165.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to his height?

Mr. WORRELL. 5-7, 5-10.

Mr. SPECTER. Pardon me, your best estimate as to his age.

Mr. WORRELL. Well, the way he was running, I would say he was in his
late twenties or middle--I mean early thirties. Because he was fast
moving on.

Mr. SPECTER. Of what race was he?

Mr. WORRELL. White.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you describe the characteristics of his hair?

Mr. WORRELL. Black.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he have----

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I will say brunette.

Mr. SPECTER. Did he have a full head of hair, a partial head of hair,
or what?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, see, I didn't see his face, I just saw the back
of his head and it was full in the back. I don't know what the front
looked like. But it was full in the back.

Mr. SPECTER. What clothes did the man have on?

Mr. WORRELL. Dark, like a jacket like that.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating a dark gray jacket?

Mr. WORRELL. No, no. It was a jacket like that.

Mr. SPECTER. A suit jacket?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Or was it a sports jacket?

Mr. WORRELL. Sports jacket.

Mr. SPECTER. Did not have on matching coat and trousers?

Mr. WORRELL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it dark in color or light?

Mr. WORRELL. It was dark in color. I don't know whether it was blue,
black, or brown, but it was dark, and he had light pants. And that is
all I can say on his clothes, except his coat was open and kind of
flapping back in the breeze when he was running.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, are there any other distinguishing characteristics
that you can describe about him?

Mr. WORRELL. Not a thing.

Mr. SPECTER. What did he----

Mr. WORRELL. He wasn't holding nothing when he was running. He was just
running.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe him do, if anything?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, when he ran out here, he ran along the side of the
Depository Building and then when he got----

Mr. SPECTER. Make a dotted line as to where he went, or take this black
pencil and make a line as to where he went.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you see him eventually go?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, he went on further.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that the last you saw him?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And did something come between you and him so that your
vision was obstructed?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. As of the point you have just dotted out there?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What obstructed your view of him at that juncture or at
that point?

Mr. WORRELL. I can't really be sure, it was a building, but the type of
building, I don't know.

Mr. SPECTER. During the course of your seeing him, did you ever get a
view of his face?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, no, no.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. What did you do next, Mr. Worrell?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I went on down this way and headed up back to Elm
Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating you went on down to Pacific?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And then proceeded----

Mr. WORRELL. No, no; that is wrong. I went on Pacific and----

Mr. SPECTER. Just a minute. You proceeded from point "Y" on in a
generally northerly direction to Pacific and then in what direction did
you go on Pacific, this would be in an easterly direction?

Mr. WORRELL. I went east.

Mr. SPECTER. You went in an easterly direction how many blocks down
Pacific?

Mr. WORRELL. I went down to Market and from Market I went on Ross.

Mr. SPECTER. You went left on Market down to Ross, and then?

Mr. WORRELL. From Ross I went all the way to Ervay.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you heading for at that time?

Mr. WORRELL. For the bus stop near my mother's office. And I rode the
bus from there out to the school and hitchhiked the rest of the way to
Farmers Branch.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. When did you first report to any official what
you had seen and heard on this occasion?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I turned the TV on early next morning to see what
had happened, and Chief Curry was making a plea----

Senator COOPER. Is that going to become a part of the evidence at this
point?

Mr. WORRELL. Chief Curry was making a plea for anyone who had seen the
shooting, would they please come down and make a statement. So I called
the Farmer Branch police, and told them, and they come and picked me
up, and they called the Dallas police, and they come way out there and
picked me up and took me downtown to make a statement and brought me
back home.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, before we leave this Exhibit 361, are you
able to testify as to the accuracy of the scale drawing here which
represents the part of it that you have testified about, specifically
the presence of the Texas School Book Depository Building on the
northwest corner of Elm and Houston. Is that the accurate location of
that building?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And is it an accurate reproduction of the intersection of
Elm and Houston leading into the parkway on Elm Street?

Mr. WORRELL. As far as this?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. As far as all the parts you have testified about Elm and
Houston. Is it accurate that Pacific is one block in the northerly
direction away from Elm Street?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And Ross is another block, generally, in a northerly
direction away from Pacific?

Mr. WORRELL. No, Ross is over here. This is Record Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, first there is Elm, then there is Pacific, and then
there is Ross. Is that much accurate as the map shows it to be, is that
the way the streets are laid out?

Mr. WORRELL. I think so.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the general width of Houston Street in relation
to the general width of the Texas School Depository Building, is that
about right?

Mr. WORRELL. I don't know, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right, that is fine.

At the same time that we have marked Exhibit 361, Mr. Chairman, I would
like to use the next number in sequence, No. 362 to mark the other half
of this same exhibit which is designated Texas School Book Depository
floor plan of the first floor, which we will not use at this time, but
I would like to mark it in sequence.

And at this time I ask that Commission Exhibits Nos. 359, 360, 361, and
362 be admitted into evidence.

Senator COOPER. So ordered. Let those exhibits be admitted as part of
the evidence.

(The documents referred to, heretofore marked Commission Exhibits Nos.
359, 360, 361, and 362 were admitted into evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, you had told us that you heard a plea by
Chief of Police Curry for all witnesses to come forward.

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And you heard that plea on the 23d of November?

Mr. WORRELL. It was on Saturday.

Mr. SPECTER. What action, if any, did you take in response to that
request?

Mr. WORRELL. I called on the phone to the Farmers Branch police.

Mr. SPECTER. You called who?

Mr. WORRELL. The Farmers Branch police.

Mr. SPECTER. I see. And what did you do then?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I told them what I had seen and they said, "Well,
stay there and we will come and get you."

Mr. SPECTER. Did they come and get you?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you then tell the police what you had seen and heard?

Mr. WORRELL. I told a Lt. Butler what I had seen, and I don't know
if--they placed the call into the Dallas police and something like an
hour later they came to pick me up there.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you make a statement or take an affidavit on what you
had seen and heard?

Mr. WORRELL. To the Dallas police?

Mr. SPECTER. Yes.

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes, sir. I made a statement and signed five of them.

Mr. SPECTER. I will show you a paper which is marked Commission Exhibit
363 which purports to be an affidavit bearing your signature.

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Let me ask you first of all if that is your signature?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And would you take just a minute, take your time and read
that affidavit over, please.

Have you had a chance to read that over, Mr. Worrell?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell us that you signed five different statements
or five copies of the same statement?

Mr. WORRELL. Five copies of the same statement.

Mr. SPECTER. Is this the statement which you signed in affidavit form
at that time?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And----

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. As you have just--have you had time to read it over just
now?

Mr. WORRELL. Oh, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that statement accurate based on your current
recollection of the event?

Mr. WORRELL. It is accurate down to, well, I changed my height to 5-8
from 5-7.

Mr. SPECTER. Aside from that minor variation, is it accurate in its
entirety; that is, is it all accurate?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I left out, when I was making my affidavit, I left
out, while I was running I heard a gun fire two more times. Well, as I
told you, I was turning the corner when I heard it and saw it fire the
third time, and then the fourth.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, are there any other additions or modifications
that you would like to make from the contents of your statement in
accordance with your recollection at this moment?

Mr. WORRELL. I can't verify that--the time they got here because I am
not too sure of that.

Mr. SPECTER. You are not sure of that now?

Mr. WORRELL. No.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Are there any other modifications that you would want to make in the
contents of the statement?

Mr. WORRELL. Leave out firecracker. It sounded, it was too loud for a
firecracker.

Mr. SPECTER. Your current recollection is that it was too loud for a
firecracker?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other respect in which your current
recollection differs from this affidavit?

Mr. WORRELL. Instead of looking I ran, I looked up.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other respect in which your current
recollection differs from the affidavit?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I left out on the barrel of the rifle, I left out
part of the stock. I didn't recollect that at that time.

Mr. SPECTER. Is there any other aspect in which your current
recollection differs from the facts set forth in this affidavit?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, everything else is O.K.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate as to the length of time
between the first shot and the last shot which you heard?

Mr. WORRELL. The best estimate 5, 6 seconds.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to, been interviewed by or given a
statement to any Federal agent?

Mr. WORRELL. The FBI down at Dallas.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times have you seen the FBI agents?

Mr. WORRELL. Once.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect the names of the agents you saw?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect when it was that you saw those agents?

Mr. WORRELL. It was on that Saturday, the 23d.

Mr. SPECTER. And where were you when you saw them?

Mr. WORRELL. In the Dallas Police Station.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did that interview last?

Mr. WORRELL. Thirty minutes.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you sign a statement for them?

Mr. WORRELL. I just signed it for the Dallas police. They didn't have
me sign anything.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you been interviewed by any other Federal agent or
representative?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, Mr. Sorrels interviewed me when he called me and
asked me some questions when he called me up Wednesday night, I guess
it was.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that in relationship to your coming here to this
Commission hearing?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. What sort of questions did Mr. Sorrels ask you?

Mr. WORRELL. What I saw. And I told him.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that just on the telephone?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. How long did that conversation last?

Mr. WORRELL. Not very long. He talked to my mother first. He talked to
her for 15 minutes, something like this.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he talking to her about what you saw or about travel
arrangements to get you here?

Mr. WORRELL. I don't know. I was watching television, I didn't know
even who she was talking to.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Aside from that conversation with Mr. Sorrels
and the interview you have had with the FBI, have you ever talked with
any agent or representative of the Federal Government.

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Have you talked to any police official of Dallas or the
State of Texas after you gave this affidavit?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Based on seeing only the back of this man, were you ever
able to make any identification of him?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chairman, I move for the admission into evidence of
the other exhibit which we have used with Mr. Worrell being Commission
Exhibit No. 362.

Senator COOPER. The exhibit will be admitted to evidence.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 362 for
identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. That concludes our questions.

Senator COOPER. You stated that, I believe, you looked up after you had
heard the first report?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. You looked up and saw the barrel of a rifle, and then
the rifle fired. What made you know that it fired?

Mr. WORRELL. Pardon?

Senator COOPER. How did you know it was fired when you were looking at
it?

Mr. WORRELL. Well, I saw what you might call a little flame and smoke.

Senator COOPER. You saw something that came out of the barrel?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Were you looking at it when you heard the third report?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir, looking at it, turning around and started to run.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anything then?

Mr. WORRELL. Same thing, a little flash of fire and then smoke. I
didn't see it on the fourth one.

Senator COOPER. Did you only look at the car in which the President was
riding one time when you said you saw him slump?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did you look back at the President's car then?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir. I didn't do that because I mean I didn't know if
there was one or more guns, because I wondered why if it was in such
rapid succession being a bolt action, I found out later, and I didn't
know what was coming off, so I was running to the back of the building
because I figured that would be the safest place.

Senator COOPER. Did you see anyone in the windows, in the Texas
Depository Building?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did you notice where this man you have described later
as running away from the building, did you see him come out of the
building?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Where?

Mr. WORRELL. At the back entrance. Approximately where I put the mark
"Z."

Senator COOPER. Was he running all the time you saw him?

Mr. WORRELL. Yes, sir, he sure was.

Senator COOPER. That is all.

Mr. WRIGHT. Prior to hearing the first shot, had you looked up at the
School Book Depository Building?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir; I sure didn't.

Mr. WRIGHT. That is all.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to observe the direction of the barrel which
you have described?

Mr. WORRELL. Pointing right down at the motorcade.

Mr. SPECTER. Any special part of the motorcade?

Mr. WORRELL. I mean, I couldn't really say that because it was too high
up and he could have been pointing at anyone of the cars. I mean I
couldn't tell from where I was standing.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it on the part of the motorcade which had turned down
Elm Street or on the part of the motorcade that was still on Houston or
what?

Mr. WORRELL. It was the part that was turned down Elm Street.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Worrell, we have a report of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation which contains a purported interview with you, designated
as report of Robert P. Gemberling dated November 30, 1963, which has
this statement:

"He"--referring to you--"stated that last night when he saw photographs
of Lee Harvey Oswald on television he felt this was the person he had
seen running away from the building. He stated this person did not look
back but he was certain this was a white person since he had a profile
view."

My question, first of all, to you: Did you have a profile view of the
man who ran away from the building that you described?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. The second question is, did you tell the FBI that you had
a profile view?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir, I sure didn't.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell the FBI agent who interviewed you, that you
felt that this person was Lee Harvey Oswald?

Mr. WORRELL. I don't know if I did or not.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anyone else leave the building, that is the
Texas School Book Depository Building, except the man you have already
described to us?

Mr. WORRELL. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. I have no further questions, Mr. Chairman.

Senator COOPER. Are there any further questions? I believe we will
stand in recess until 2 o'clock.

(Whereupon, at 1:10 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)



Afternoon Session

TESTIMONY OF AMOS LEE EUINS


The President's Commission reconvened at 2:15 p.m.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will come to order.

Amos, will you stand up, please, and raise your right hand?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. You may be seated. How old are you?

Mr. EUINS. Sixteen.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, should we start by reading the purpose?

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. I think you received a copy of this statement. But I
just want to say to you that the purpose of today's hearing is to hear
the testimony of Arnold Louis Rowland, James Richard Worrell, Robert
H. Jackson, and yourself who were in the vicinity of the assassination
scene on November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask you facts
concerning your knowledge of the assassination of President Kennedy.

You understand that?

Mr. EUINS. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you tell us your full name for the record, please?

Mr. EUINS. Amos Lee Euins.

Mr. SPECTER. What is your exact date of birth, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. January 10, 1948.

Mr. SPECTER. January 10, 1948?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And are you a school boy at the present time?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What school do you go to?

Mr. EUINS. Franklin D. Roosevelt.

Mr. SPECTER. What grade are you in at that school?

Mr. EUINS. The ninth.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you live with your parents, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How is your health generally?

Mr. EUINS. I guess it is all right.

Mr. SPECTER. How are your eyes?

Mr. EUINS. They are all right.

Mr. SPECTER. Can you see good at a distance?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, I can see good at a distance, but I can't see at real
close range.

Mr. SPECTER. Are you able to read without glasses?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You don't use glasses for any purposes, then?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say you have trouble at close range, just what do
you mean by that?

Mr. EUINS. You know, like I put something on real close.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 4 or 5 inches from your eyes?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. And then they kind of get dim. But on a long
scene, I can see good.

Mr. SPECTER. How are your grades in school, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. They are all right.

Mr. SPECTER. Are they better than average, or what?

Mr. EUINS. They are about average.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Going back to November 22, 1963, that is last year, Amos, do you recall
what you were doing early on that morning?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. When I first got up, I went to school. Then about
11:30, well, the teachers called us and told us the ones that wanted
to go downtown to see the President come down to the office and get an
excuse and they could go. So I went down to the office, and I got an
excuse, so I went downtown.

Mr. SPECTER. And what time did you leave school?

Mr. EUINS. 11:30.

Mr. SPECTER. And where did you go from your school?

Mr. EUINS. Downtown.

Mr. SPECTER. What part of downtown?

Mr. EUINS. Right over by the county jail.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the names of those streets, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. If I told you they were Elm and Houston, would that help
your memory as to what the names of those streets were?

Mr. EUINS. It was right by the freeway.

Mr. SPECTER. All right. Let me show you a photograph, Amos, which is on
a document I have marked as Commission Exhibit No. 365.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 365 for
identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. Take just a minute and look at that, and see if you can
recognize where that is.

Mr. EUINS. This is going across the railroad tracks, back up to
here--right here at the corner is the Book Depository Building.

Mr. SPECTER. That is the Book Depository Building, you say?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Why don't you just put an "X" with this pencil on the Book Depository
Building, as you identify it there, Amos--on the building itself.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you somewhere in that area when the President's
motorcade went by?

Mr. EUINS. I was right here.

Mr. SPECTER. Why don't you take this black pencil and put an "A" right
where you were, Amos.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what time did you get to the place where you have
marked with an "A"?

Mr. EUINS. Oh, I would say around about 15 minutes or something like
that to 12, because my mother brought me down there.

Mr. SPECTER. She drove you down, did she?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were you with anybody when you came to that spot, or
did your mother leave you off there by yourself?

Mr. EUINS. She left me. She had to go on to work.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, about how long was it after you got there that the
motorcade came by?

Mr. EUINS. Oh, I would say about--I had been there about 15, maybe 20
minutes. It come around the corner, come on around.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Amos, I want to show you another picture here that I have marked as
Commission Exhibit No. 366.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 366 for
identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. I ask you if you can recognize what that building is.

Mr. EUINS. This here is the Book Depository Building.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, look back over here at 365. Can you tell us which direction the
President's motorcade came from on this picture?

Mr. EUINS. It come from right in here.

Mr. SPECTER. First of all, do you know what the name of this street is?
Would that be Main Street, in Dallas?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; I think so.

Mr. SPECTER. Coming down Main Street, indicating in a general westerly
direction. Turning which way?

Mr. EUINS. This way.

Mr. SPECTER. Turned right.

Do you know if that is Houston Street?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show the witness is identifying a street
heretofore identified as Houston.

Then which way did the motorcade go after proceeding in a general
northerly direction on Houston?

Mr. EUINS. It come this way, turn.

Mr. SPECTER. Which way--right or left?

Mr. EUINS. It turned to the left, coming down, going on.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know the name of the street it turned onto when it
made the left turn?

Mr. EUINS. I was just trying to keep an eye on the President.

Mr. SPECTER. The witness has identified a street heretofore identified
as Elm Street.

Tell us what you saw as the motorcade went by.

Mr. EUINS. I was standing here on the corner. And then the President
come around the corner right here. And I was standing here. And I was
waving, because there wasn't hardly no one on the corner right there
but me. I was waving. He looked that way and he waved back at me. And
then I had seen a pipe, you know, up there in the window, I thought it
was a pipe, some kind of pipe.

Mr. SPECTER. When had you first seen that thing you just described as a
pipe?

Mr. EUINS. Right as he turned the corner here.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, exactly where did you see that thing you have
described as a pipe come from. And take a good look now before you tell
us where it was.

Mr. EUINS. Right here.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, will you mark an "X" on Exhibit No. 366 where you saw
the pipe? Mark the exact window, if you can, Amos.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Proceed to tell us what happened, Amos.

Mr. EUINS. Then I was standing here, and as the motorcade turned the
corner, I was facing, looking dead at the building. And so I seen this
pipe thing sticking out the window. I wasn't paying too much attention
to it. Then when the first shot was fired, I started looking around,
thinking it was a backfire. Everybody else started looking around.
Then I looked up at the window, and he shot again. So--you know this
fountain bench here, right around here. Well, anyway, there is a little
fountain right here. I got behind this little fountain, and then he
shot again.

So after he shot again, he just started looking down this, you know.

Mr. SPECTER. Who started looking down that way?

Mr. EUINS. The man in the window. I could see his hand, and I could see
his other hand on the trigger, and one hand was on the barrel thing.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, at the time the second shot was fired, where were you looking then?

Mr. EUINS. I was still looking at the building, you know, behind
this--I was looking at the building.

Mr. SPECTER. Looking at anything special in the building?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. I was looking where the barrel was sticking out.

Mr. SPECTER. How many shots did you hear altogether?

Mr. EUINS. I believe there was four, to be exact.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, where were you looking at the time of the third shot,
if you remember?

Mr. EUINS. After he shot the first two times, I was just standing
back here. And then after he shot again, he pulled the gun back in
the window. And then all the police ran back over here in the track
vicinity.

Mr. SPECTER. Slow down just a little bit in what you are telling us.

When the second shot occurred, were you still standing at the point
where you marked with an "A" on 365?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. But I was right behind this little----

Mr. SPECTER. Were you a little bit behind of where that "A" is?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; right back here.

Mr. SPECTER. Let's mark that with a "B," where you were at the time the
second shot occurred.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, when the third shot occurred, Amos, let me ask you again, where
were you looking then?

Mr. EUINS. I was still down here, looking up at the building.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you see in the building?

Mr. EUINS. I seen a bald spot on this man's head, trying to look out
the window. He had a bald spot on his head. I was looking at the bald
spot. I could see his hand, you know the rifle laying across in his
hand. And I could see his hand sticking out on the trigger part. And
after he got through, he just pulled it back in the window.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him pull it back in the window?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And were you still standing at point B?

Mr. EUINS. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. When he pulled it back in the window?

Mr. EUINS. I was still behind here, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Where were you when you heard what you described as the
fourth shot?

Mr. EUINS. The first shot I was standing here.

Mr. SPECTER. Now you are referring to 366. Put an "L" on 366 where you
were standing at the first shot.

Mr. EUINS. Right here.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. EUINS. And then as I looked up there, you know, he fired another
shot, you know, as I was looking. So I got behind this fountain thing
right in there, at this point B.

Mr. SPECTER. At point B on 365?

Mr. EUINS. I got behind there. And then I watched, he did fire again.
Then he started looking down towards my way, and then he fired again.

Mr. SPECTER. The question I have for you now is where were you when he
fired on that fourth time.

Mr. EUINS. I was still behind point B.

Mr. SPECTER. You were still at point B when he fired the fourth time?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. Then he pulled the gun back in the window.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see him pull the gun back in the window after the
fourth shot?

Mr. EUINS. Yes; he just come back like this.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you watch what he did after that?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; because after he had pulled it back in the window,
I ran this way, and went across the tracks.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

You start on Exhibit 365, and put the black mark and show us the path
of where you ran on 365.

Mr. EUINS. I was here at "B."

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

(Witness marking.)

Mr. EUINS. I was coming down like this here, and there was a policeman,
you know there is a little cut you can come through there. There was a
policeman standing right around here.

Mr. SPECTER. Where was the policeman standing? Mark that with point
"C," Amos.

Mr. EUINS. Right there.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. You ran past the policeman standing at point C?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir. You see, I come from point B, and ran here, and
told the policeman I had seen the shot, because they were looking at
the railroad tracks. So he put me on the cycle and he went to here.

Mr. SPECTER. He put you on the cycle and took you where?

Mr. EUINS. Up to the front of the building.

Mr. SPECTER. The Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; and then he called some more cars. They got all
around the building. And then the policemen came from the tracks, and
they got around the building.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you see the policemen come from the tracks to go
around the building?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. About how many policemen were there, would you say, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. There was about 14 or something like that. They were coming
from the tracks here.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the name of that policeman was, who was
in that position where you have marked C?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir. He was kind of an old policeman. I ran down and got
him. And he ran up here.

Mr. SPECTER. You mean----

Mr. EUINS. The Book Depository Building.

Then he called some more cars. They got all the way around the
building. And then after that, well, he seen another man. Another man
told him he seen a man run out the back.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who that man was who said somebody ran out the
back?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir. He was a construction man working back there.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you there when the man talked about somebody running
out the back?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. He said the man had--he said he had kind of bald
spot on his head. And he said the man come back there.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what the name of the man was who told the
police that someone had run out the back?

Mr. EUINS. . No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. So then they took me over to the county jail. And that is
where I told them what happened. And then they was standing around the
Book Depository Building, and I stayed over there to the jailhouse
about 6 o'clock. And then they took me home.

Mr. SPECTER. And did they question you about what happened and what you
observed on that occasion?

Mr. EUINS. At the jailhouse?

Mr. SPECTER. At the jailhouse.

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Amos, would you tell us everything that you can remember about what you
saw about the gun itself?

Mr. EUINS. Well, when I first got here on the corner, the President was
coming around the bend. That is when--I was looking at the building
then.

Mr. SPECTER. What did you think it was when you first saw it?

Mr. EUINS. I thought it was a piece of pipe or something sticking out
the window.

Mr. SPECTER. Did it look like it was a piece of metal to you?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; just a little round piece of pipe.

Mr. SPECTER. About an inch in diameter, would you say?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And how long was the piece of pipe that you saw?

Mr. EUINS. It was sticking out about that much.

Mr. SPECTER. About 14 or 15 inches?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. And then after I seen it sticking out, after
awhile, that is when I heard the shot, and everybody started looking
around.

Mr. SPECTER. At that time, Amos, did you see anything besides the end
of the pipe?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. For example, you didn't see anything about a stock or any
other part of the rifle?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir--not with the first shot. You see, the President was
still right along down in here somewhere on the first shot.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, when you saw it on the first occasion, did you think
it was a rifle then? Or did that thought enter your mind?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I wasn't thinking about it then. But when I was
looking at it, when he shot, it sounded like a high-powered rifle,
after I listened to it awhile, because I had been in the NDCC for about
a year.

Mr. SPECTER. What is NDCC?

Mr. EUINS. We call it a military army for the boys, at our school.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that ROTC?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. ROTC. And have you had any opportunity to fire a weapon in
that ROTC class?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; not outside of just .22's. We fire them on the
firing range.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, when you looked up at the rifle later, you described seeing some
of the trigger part.

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, describe as fully as you can for us what you saw
then, Amos.

Mr. EUINS. Well, when he stuck it out, you know--after the President
had come on down the street further, you know he kind of stuck it out
more, you know.

Mr. SPECTER. How far was it sticking out of the window would you say
then, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. I would say it was about something like that.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 3 feet?

Mr. EUINS. You know--the trigger housing and stock and receiver group
out the window.

Mr. SPECTER. I can't understand you, Amos.

Mr. EUINS. It was enough to get the stock and receiving house and the
trigger housing to stick out the window.

Mr. SPECTER. The stock and receiving house?

Mr. EUINS. Yes.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what direction was the rifle pointing?

Mr. EUINS. Down--what did you say--Elm?

Mr. SPECTER. Elm Street?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; down Elm.

Mr. SPECTER. Was it pointing in the direction of the President?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, could you see anything else on the gun?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I could not.

Mr. SPECTER. For example, could you see whether or not there was a
telescopic lens on the gun?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else about the gun that you can
describe to us that you have not already told us about?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, what kind of a look, if any, did you have at the man
who was there?

Mr. EUINS. All I got to see was the man with a spot in his head,
because he had his head something like this.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating his face down, looking down the rifle?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; and I could see the spot on his head.

Mr. SPECTER. How would you describe that man for us?

Mr. EUINS. I wouldn't know how to describe him, because all I could see
was the spot and his hand.

Mr. SPECTER. Was he slender or was he fat?

Mr. EUINS. I didn't get to see him.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you tell from where you looked whether he was tall
or short?

Mr. EUINS. No.

Mr. SPECTER. Of what race was he, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. I couldn't tell, because these boxes were throwing a
reflection, shaded.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you tell whether he was a Negro gentleman or a white
man?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Couldn't even tell that? But you have described that he
had a bald----

Mr. EUINS. Spot in his head. Yes, sir; I could see the bald spot in his
head.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, could you tell what color hair he had?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Could you tell whether his hair was dark or light?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. How far back did the bald spot on his head go?

Mr. EUINS. I would say about right along in here.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 2-1/2 inches above where your hairline
is. Is that about what you are saying?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; right along in here.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, did you get a very good look at that man, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to tell anything about the clothes he was
wearing?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, when you were at the sheriff's department in the
police station that you have described, did they ask you to sign an
affidavit or statement for them, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. I now show you a paper, Amos, which I have marked as
Commission Exhibit No. 367.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 367 for
identification.)

Mr. SPECTER. This is supposed to be a statement which is signed. Let me
first point out to you that it is a copy of it. I ask you if this is a
copy of your signature?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, will you take your time, Amos, and read that over, and then I want
to ask you a couple of questions about it.

Did you have a chance to read it over?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Let me ask you about a couple of specific things here, Amos.

In the statement you say here that he was a white man. By reading the
statement, does that refresh your memory as to whether he was a white
man or not?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I told the man that I could see a white spot on his
head, but I didn't actually say it was a white man. I said I couldn't
tell. But I saw a white spot in his head.

Mr. SPECTER. Your best recollection at this moment is you still don't
know whether he was a white man or a Negro? All you can say is that you
saw a white spot on his head?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Then, did you tell the people at the police station that
he was a white man, or did they make a mistake when they wrote that
down here?

Mr. EUINS. They must have made a mistake, because I told them I could
see a white spot on his head.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, is there anything else in this statement, Amos, which
is different from the way you remember this event, as you are sitting
here right now?

Amos, did you understand the last question?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you answer it for us?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I don't think there is.

Mr. SPECTER. I don't understand you, Amos. The question I am trying to
get at it, as you read that statement over now, you have testified or
told us here today what you remember about this assassination?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And I am asking you, when you read that statement over,
is there anything on that statement which you think is wrong, based on
what you remember right now?

For example, you told us that they were wrong when they wrote down that
you identified him as a white man. Were they wrong about anything else
that they wrote down?

Mr. EUINS. Not that I can see.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

When you looked up and saw this man, Amos, did he have on a hat?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice any boxes behind him at that time, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; there were some boxes, you know, all the side of
the window. Like this window--there were some boxes in these windows up
here.

Mr. SPECTER. You saw some boxes in these windows?

Mr. EUINS. In these windows, and these windows, and there was boxes in
half of this one.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, mark the windows where you saw those boxes, Amos. Start off
with--mark the window "Y" where you saw boxes.

(Witness marking.)

Mr. SPECTER. You made a figure 9, as I read it, on the two places you
saw boxes in the windows.

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; in this half.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, were there boxes in the window marked "X"?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir. There were about two or three of them right along
here.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating the middle dividing line there?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Was that window marked "X" opened, Amos, or closed?

Mr. EUINS. It was open.

Mr. SPECTER. How far open was it?

Mr. EUINS. About that high.

Mr. SPECTER. Indicating about 19 inches?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. And was the window in the other double window immediately
next to the window marked "X" open or closed?

Mr. EUINS. The top window, on the sixth floor?

Mr. SPECTER. I am referring to the window right next to it.

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; it was not open.

Mr. SPECTER. Amos, when you heard the first shot, did you have any
reaction or impression as to where the noise was coming from at that
exact time?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; not at the exact time. You know, because everybody
else started looking around. So I just started looking around, thinking
it was a backfire, just like everyone else.

Mr. SPECTER. Did you look up towards that window before the second
shot, or just when the second shot occurred?

Mr. EUINS. I think--just a little before, because as soon as I did, I
looked at it--pow.

Mr. SPECTER. You heard a pow?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Now, as you were watching and heard, did you have the
impression that the noise you heard was coming from that rifle?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I didn't, because I wasn't thinking of the rifle at
first--you know, because it looked like a pipe at first.

Mr. SPECTER. When you say the second--when you heard the second shot,
when you say you were looking at the rifle, did you have the feeling
that the noise came from the rifle when you heard the second shot, when
you were looking at it?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. SPECTER. Well, did you have any impression at all about where the
noise was coming from?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir; not on the first shot.

Mr. SPECTER. How about the second shot?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Where did you think the noise was coming from on the
second shot?

Mr. EUINS. I seen him shoot on the second shot.

Mr. SPECTER. So you thought the noise was coming from the rifle on the
second shot?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Did you say you thought, or saw?

Mr. EUINS. I saw him shoot the second shot.

Mr. SPECTER. How high were those boxes behind him, Amos?

Mr. EUINS. They was probably about 2 feet high stacked in the back of
him.

Mr. SPECTER. Amos, were you questioned later by the FBI?

Mr. EUINS. Yes, sir; over in the office.

Mr. SPECTER. How many times were you questioned by the FBI?

Mr. EUINS. Oh, once.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember when that was?

Mr. EUINS. It was around about 2 or 3 o'clock.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember how many days after the assassination it
was?

Mr. EUINS. About 4.

Mr. SPECTER. You think they might have talked to you more than once?

Mr. EUINS. No, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I move for the admission into evidence
of the statement marked Commission Exhibit 367.

The CHAIRMAN. That may be admitted.

(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission
Exhibit No. 367 was received in evidence.)

Mr. SPECTER. That concludes the questioning I have, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Wright?

Mr. WRIGHT. Nothing further, Mr. Chief Justice.

Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Chief Justice, I would like to move for the admission
into evidence of all the exhibits here--365, 366, as well as 367.

The CHAIRMAN. Very well.

(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Commission
Exhibits Nos. 365 and 366, were received in evidence.)

The CHAIRMAN. Amos, you may be excused, then. Thank you very much for
coming and helping us out with your testimony.

We will recess until tomorrow morning at 9 o'clock.



_Wednesday, March 11, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER, LINNIE MAE RANDLE, AND CORTLANDT
CUNNINGHAM

The President's Commission met at 9:45 a.m. on March 11, 1964, at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Sherman
Cooper and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball,
assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Albert E. Jenner,
Jr., assistant counsel; Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel; Norman
Redlich, assistant counsel; Charles Murray and Lewis E. Powell, Jr.,
observers.


TESTIMONY OF BUELL WESLEY FRAZIER

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission will be in order.

Mr. BALL. I would like to assign Commission Exhibit No. 364 to a paper
sack which the FBI has identified as their C-109 Exhibit. That will be
the Commission's Exhibit No. 364 for identification at this time.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

(The paper sack referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 364 for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. Also for the record I would like to announce that prior
to--this morning, Mr. Cortlandt Cunningham and Charles Killion of the
Federal Bureau of Investigation laboratory, the Ballistics Division,
Firearms Division, I guess it is, broke down, that is unscrewed
Commission Exhibit No. 139, an Italian rifle, and that rifle has been
placed in, after being disassembled, has been placed in Commission's
No. 364 for identification, that paper sack.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

Mr. BALL. We have also here before the Commission, Commission No. 142
which is a paper sack which is identified as the FBI's Exhibit No. 10.
I think that has its number, exhibit number on it.

I have been informed that was 142. My notes show that the brown paper
sack is 142.

I think we can call the witness now.

The CHAIRMAN. All right; would you call Mr. Frazier, please.

Raise your right hand to be sworn, please.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this
Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mr. FRAZIER. I do.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Joseph Ball of our staff will examine you, Mr.
Frazier, but I would like to read a very short statement concerning the
purpose of the meeting.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Buell Wesley
Frazier, and Linnie Mae Randle. The Commission has been advised that
these two witnesses have stated that they saw Lee Harvey Oswald on the
morning of November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these
witnesses questions concerning their knowledge of the assassination of
President Kennedy.

You have a copy of this, have you not?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, you may proceed, Mr. Ball.

Mr. BALL. You call yourself Buell or Wesley?

Mr. FRAZIER. I go by Wesley.

Mr. BALL. Well, Wesley, what is your age?

Mr. FRAZIER. Sir?

Mr. BALL. What is your age?

Mr. FRAZIER. Nineteen.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. FRAZIER. For the time being I am living in Irving now.

Mr. BALL. Irving, Tex.?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is the address where you live?

Mr. FRAZIER. 2439 West Fifth Street.

Mr. BALL. Did you live there in November 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. And who lives in that house with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. My sister and brother-in-law and their three children.

Mr. BALL. Will you state their names, your sister's name?

Mr. FRAZIER. Linnie Mae Randle and my brother-in-law. I believe his
real name is William Edward Randle. We call him Bill. They have three
little girls, Diana, Patricia and Caroline Sue.

Mr. BALL. Where does your mother live?

Mr. FRAZIER. She lives in Huntsville.

Mr. BALL. Where is that?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is about 200 miles south of Dallas there.

Mr. BALL. What is the name of the town?

Mr. FRAZIER. Town, you mean where my mother lives? Huntsville.

Mr. BALL. Huntsville?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; that is about, it is about 70, 80 miles north of
Houston.

Mr. BALL. What is your mother's name?

Mr. FRAZIER. Essie Mae Williams.

Mr. BALL. Was she visiting you and your sister sometime in November
1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; she was.

Mr. BALL. How long was she there?

Mr. FRAZIER. She was there for, I believe, for a period of about 4 or 5
weeks because my stepfather was with her and he got sick and they had
to put him in the hospital and he was in the hospital 3 or 4 weeks,
somewheres, 4 or 5 weeks because they were there a week before he got
sick.

Mr. BALL. Then on November 21 and 22, living with you in this residence
at Irving, Tex., were your mother, Mrs. Williams, and your sister,
Linnie Mae Randle?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And her husband and their three children?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Where do you work?

Mr. FRAZIER. Work at Texas School Books.

Mr. BALL. How long have you worked there?

Mr. FRAZIER. I have been working there since September.

Mr. BALL. September of 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. Correct.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work do you do there?

Mr. FRAZIER. I fill orders.

Mr. BALL. How did you happen to get that job?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I went to see, first I come up there and started
looking for a job and couldn't find one myself so I went to one of
these employment agencies and through that a lady called up one
morning, I was fixing to go out and look for one, I was looking for
myself in the meantime when they were, too, and so she called up and
gave me a tip to it if I was interested in a job like that I could go
over there and see about that and for the time being I wasn't working
and needed some money and so I did and I went over there and saw Mr.
Truly, and he gave me an interview, and then he hired me the same day I
went over there.

Mr. BALL. You say you came up, you mean you came up from Huntsville?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That was in September 1963?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. BALL. Looking for a job around Dallas?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you go to live with your sister at that time?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. What--where is the employment agency and what is its name
when you first applied for a job?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I went to several but, see, this one got me this job
the main one was Massey, the employment agency, and it is over there on
Shady Grove Road.

Mr. BALL. In Dallas?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; in Irving.

Mr. BALL. How do you spell that name, the name of the employment agency?

Mr. FRAZIER. Massey?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe it is M-a-s-s-e-y.

Mr. BALL. And it was a woman at the employment agency that called you
and told you to go to see the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, right.

Mr. BALL. And you went to see Mr. Truly and after an interview he gave
you a job?

Mr. FRAZIER. Correct.

Mr. BALL. Then you started work there about what date in September?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was the 13th. I say that was the same day I went for
an interview. I went early enough that morning that he told me to come
back after lunch.

Mr. BALL. And you are still working there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When Mr. Truly hired you did he tell you it would be a
full-time job or just a temporary job?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he told me that he was looking for somebody full
time and I told him, well, that is what I wanted, and so he said that
would be just fine.

Mr. BALL. How much did he start to pay you?

Mr. FRAZIER. He started me off with a dollar and a quarter an hour.

Mr. BALL. That is for an eight-hour day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. Five days a week.

Mr. BALL. Did you commute back and forth from your sister's home in
Irving?

Mr. FRAZIER. Over there to the Texas School Books?

Mr. BALL. To the Texas School Book Depository.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. From the first day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you still do?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you own a car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Your own car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You had it, did you, when you started to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Still have it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you have been since September driving that car from your
sister's home in Irving over to the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. FRAZIER. Correct.

Mr. BALL. Go there in the morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. What time do you get to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. I get there around 8 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. When do you quit?

Mr. FRAZIER. I quit at 4:45.

Mr. BALL. Then you drive home?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long for lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. 45 minutes.

Mr. BALL. Do all the employees have the same lunch hour?

Mr. FRAZIER. Now, the ones who work down there filling book orders
around where I work now, so we all work the same hours. Some people
work up there in the offices, I hear that they come in a little bit
later. Now, I don't know for sure but I see primarily the ones who does
the same type of work I do, we all start the same time and work the
same time.

Mr. BALL. Those are the people who fill the orders?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. How far is it in miles from your sister's home to Texas
School Book Depository?

Mr. FRAZIER. It is roughly around 15 miles.

Mr. BALL. And did you take the same route every day?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean since I have been going over there; since the
first day?

Mr. BALL. That is right.

Mr. FRAZIER. Up to now?

Mr. BALL. Yes, right.

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

You see, I found two ways, you can more judge by the traffic and you
can go some days one way and the traffic will be easier than others,
but most times I use just one route.

Mr. BALL. What route did you usually use?

Mr. FRAZIER. Used one like you go down from the house there.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER. Go down and right Storey Road, see Fifth Street is just
one block off Storey Road, and just go down and hit Storey Road and
stay on it until you come to Stemmons Freeway and you stay right on
Stemmons until you come right on into Dallas there.

Mr. BALL. About what length of time does it take you to go from your
sister's home to work in the morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. Usually, I usually leave not any later than 7:25. I
usually try to leave about 7:20, and if you leave at 7:20, you usually
get around there, by the time you get down to the parking lot now it is
usually pretty close to 5 minutes to 8 and that gives you enough time
to walk to the Book Depository, put up your lunch and take off your
coat.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a place to park your car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was it assigned to you by Mr. Truly?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he just said we had a parking lot there and
showed me where it was and said you can park in the parking lot.

Mr. BALL. Was that the parking lot two or three blocks from the
building.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir, it is down there; right across from the
warehouse there.

Mr. BALL. Then you would walk from there from that parking lot----

Mr. FRAZIER. Up to the other Depository up there at the corner of
Houston and Main.

Mr. BALL. We have here a map which has been marked as Commission's
Exhibit No. 361.

Mr. FRAZIER. I see.

Mr. BALL. And north is to the bottom of the map.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Instead of the top, as usually the case.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. It has two pictures over here, one to the left and one to the
right of the map.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Let's take a look at the picture to the right of the map. Do
you recognize that area?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I do.

Mr. BALL. What is it?

Mr. FRAZIER. I see that is right there where you say that is the street
going up to the parking lot there.

Mr. BALL. Do you recognize this car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What car is that?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is my car.

Mr. BALL. Is that where you usually park every day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I would say at the time being when I first started
to work there I first started to park there but now I park on the other
side of the fence there.

Mr. BALL. But that is a picture of the parking lot, is it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where you park is in the parking lot?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. I park inside the fence but what I am talking
about--I park on the different side of the lot.

Mr. BALL. Different side of the same lot?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we just have one lot there.

Mr. BALL. Do you see the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; right there.

Mr. BALL. And you walked from about the place where your car is parked?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Usually up to the Depository Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, correct.

Mr. BALL. Now, the map to the left, upper left-hand corner of the map,
there is a picture.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you see this area where I point my finger which is marked
"parking lot No. 1."

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is that?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is the same parking lot we were looking at right here.

Mr. BALL. What route do you walk, which way do you walk when you park
in this parking lot No. 1, to the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Do you want me to get up to where I can show it to you?

Mr. BALL. Yes; show it to us.

Mr. FRAZIER. I usually always come up, you know, you can come right,
you see the building right down here, and you notice a series of
railroad tracks, so usually early in the morning, now about 8 o'clock
there is usually not any cars right here, but I say they are switching
back and forth.

Mr. BALL. By "cars" you mean railroad cars?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they usually start switching around 8 o'clock.
Usually, there are not any cars, it is usually a long train that moves
up pretty soon but I usually move up in this direction here, especially
when it is dry. When it is wet I walk on this because it is harder. But
when it is raining, I usually walk around here, because in this area
right here, when you get up closer to the railroad tracks it has more
trenches, and it gets muddy and slimy and you can get bogged down.

So, when it is bad weather, I usually walk on this side. But I say nine
times out of ten I come up right down here.

Mr. BALL. Let's look at the map. Here is the parking lot here, is that
the parking lot where you usually park?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. BALL. This is parking lot No. 1.

Mr. FRAZIER. That is parking lot No. 1, isn't it?

Mr. BALL. Right.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. We will show you this map later, but just to illustrate, how
do you usually, what is the route you usually take, just show us on
the board here, the route you usually take to the Texas School Book
Depository Building in the morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean when I am coming off of the freeway?

Mr. BALL. After you park here.

Mr. FRAZIER. You know right here, you say like the car, you notice that
little house right there, I assume you have checked off. You know like
I was telling you now. I usually park over in this corner. But at the
time I parked right there. But anyway, there is a little cyclone fence
and this was the series of railroad tracks, I was talking to you about.

Mr. BALL. That is right.

Mr. FRAZIER. I usually come down here.

Mr. BALL. Munger Street?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, and usually cross along the railroad tracks
and come up here.

Mr. BALL. Houston Street?

Mr. FRAZIER. Houston runs into it, now they are doing some work across
the tracks and you can't go any further than the tracks, right along
here this line, cyclone, but that type of fence and I usually walk
right up, you know.

Mr. BALL. To the buildings?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And enter the rear of the building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Now, we call it a loading zone out there, dock area.

Mr. BALL. Fine.

Did anyone else ride with you in the morning, usually did anyone else
ride with you in the morning from home to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody ride with you from work to home?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.

Mr. BALL. When did you first hear of Lee Harvey Oswald, first hear the
name?

Mr. FRAZIER. I first heard, I never really did know his name, we just
called him Lee around there. But the first time I ever saw him was the
first day he come to work.

Mr. BALL. Had you heard he was coming to work before he came to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. I will say, you know, talking back and forth with the
bossman all the time and from being around and getting along real fine
and so he told me, I assume the day after he hired him that he was
going to have him come in on Monday and he asked me had I ever seen him
and I told him then no; I had never seen him.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. BALL. Had your sister told you that this fellow Lee was coming to
work?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; she did. She said one afternoon when I went home she
told me she found out from one of the neighbors there he came over for
that interview with Mr. Truly and Mr. Truly had hired him.

Mr. BALL. You heard that from your sister?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Before you saw him?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, before I saw him.

Mr. BALL. When you first saw him was it a Monday morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it was.

Mr. BALL. Do you have any idea of the date itself, do you have any
memory of the date when you first saw him?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Was it sometime around the middle of October, do you think,
would that be close to it?

Mr. FRAZIER. It could have been because it was sometime in October
because I remember I went to work there on the 13th and I had been
working there, 4 or 5 weeks and then he come there.

Mr. BALL. Where was he when you first saw him?

Mr. FRAZIER. I first saw him he was--we have a table not as large as
this, but just about half as large as this, and we have just like you
walk up to it where I am sitting over here and we have four or five
boxes there and we have different names on it, you know, for different
publishing companies, and he was there getting some orders, and I say,
as well as I remember, I said, the foreman there was getting him out
some real easy orders. Some of the orders we have are real easy to
fill, easier than the others, you don't have to know so much about the
textbooks to be able to fill them and he was getting some of them easy
ones out to start on, when we have a great number of them, you see, the
little pamphlet type books and all we do is count them out and read the
invoice number.

Mr. BALL. What was the name of the foreman showing him?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean the foreman, that was Mr. Shelly.

Mr. BALL. S-h-e-d?

Mr. FRAZIER. S-h-e-l-l-y.

Mr. BALL. Shelly.

What floor was this on?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was on the first floor there.

Mr. BALL. Did Shelly introduce you to him or did you go up and shake
hands with him?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. I remember, I knew, you know that he
was going to be coming to work so naturally I hadn't been there very
long, you know, living in Dallas and so I wanted to make friends with
everybody I could, because you know yourself friendship is something
you can't buy with money and you always need friends, so I went up and
introduced himself to myself, and he told me his name was Lee and I
said "We are glad to have you."

We got talking back and forth and he come to find out I knew his wife
was staying down there at the time with this other woman and so I
thought he would go out there and I said, "Are you going to be going
home this afternoon?"

And he told me then, he told me that he didn't have a car, you know,
and so I told him, I said, "Well, I live out there in Irving,"--I found
out he lived out there and so I said, "Any time you want to go just let
me know."

So I thought he would go home every day like most men do but he told me
no, that he wouldn't go home every day and then he asked me could he
ride home say like Friday afternoon on weekends and come back on Monday
morning and I told him that would be just fine with me.

I told him if he wanted a ride any other time just let me know before
I go off and leave him because when it comes to quitting time some of
these guys, you know, some of them mess around the bathroom and some of
them quit early and some of them like that and some leave at different
times than others.

But I said from talking to him then, I say, he just wanted to ride home
on weekends with me and I said that was fine.

Mr. BALL. Did he say at that time he was living in Dallas, he had a
room in Dallas?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did. He had an apartment.

Mr. BALL. Did he say where?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. He just said he had an apartment over
in Dallas.

Mr. BALL. Had you known his wife before that? Had you ever met his
wife, Marina Oswald?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never had.

Mr. BALL. Had you heard that a Russian girl was staying there in the
neighborhood?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say about this time I met him, you know, I knew
that at the time then but I didn't think anything about it because, you
know, the people travel from one country to the next all the time.

Mr. BALL. Did you know Mrs. Paine, Ruth Paine?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't until all this had happened because I
will be frank with you, people around there, I say, they just don't
make friends very easy. I say you can have somebody living three doors
from you and you can live a couple of years and you still might not
know the name.

Mr. BALL. And you had never met Mrs. Ruth Paine before the day you met
Lee Oswald?

Mr. FRAZIER. No.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did Lee do, what kind of work was assigned
to him?

Mr. FRAZIER. He filled orders like I do and several other men.

Mr. BALL. How many order fillers were there employed at that time?

Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, I would say roughly around five, six at that time.
Because about the time we was real busy, the busy season. I come there,
you know, and they was going pretty good when I went to work there and
I say we were still going pretty good when he come to work there.

We had a lot of work to do and usually when we have a lot of work to do
we have more order fillers.

Mr. BALL. Did he ride home with you in your car on weekends?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL. On Friday nights.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. From that time until November 22, did he ride home with you
every weekend?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he did every weekend but one.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember that date?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. In the statement you made I believe you said it was the 16th
and 17th of November. I am just reminding you of that.

Does it refresh your memory any?

Mr. FRAZIER. I remember one weekend, I say, right now I can't recall
because just to be frank with you I couldn't tell you roughly; I say I
might have at that time but I say it slipped my mind but the thing is I
do know he rode home with me every weekend up to that but one.

Mr. BALL. And why did--did he tell you why he wasn't going to ride home
that weekend?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, he did. He said he was working on his driving license
and he was going to go take a driving test.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever ask him afterward if he had taken his driver's
test?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never did. I assumed that he had taken it and
passed it what part of the test he was taking.

Most men do, I say, they usually work at it, study at it good enough so
they don't flunk out.

Representative FORD. Do you have to get a learner's permit in Texas
before you can get a driver's permit?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I say, you don't. Just two steps to it. I say,
first no matter what age you are; say, when you have to be at least 14
is about the youngest you can get it in Texas and then you have to take
a DE, Driver's Education, if you are going to school but otherwise,
the age is 16 and you just go around to the driving license bureau
there, they have an office in most any town of any size in Texas, and
you just go in and see the driving license man and just tell him that
you plan to take your driving test and you would like to have the auto
manual, and the manual covers any laws and so forth in the State of
Texas, and you can either study for your operator's or your commercial
and you pick out which one you want, and you study up for it and then
he is there, he tells you what days he is in his office, and so he goes
there a certain time and he gives you several sheets of paper, a quiz
and you answer them questions, and if you--you have to make a grade of
70 on it to pass and if you make a grade of 70 or above, well, I say,
in another week or two you go down there and you say like for instance
if you are going to want a driver's license for a car----

Representative FORD. Did Lee ever ask you or did Lee ever tell you
whether he had ever actually applied for a driver's license?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he never had, except I told you that weekend that
he said he was going down to take his driving test, and so I knew from
being in the State of Texas that you have to know something; you have
to have the manuals and so forth to study up on it. Or there isn't any
use going down there if you don't know the rules because you are not
wasting any time but your own.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not one weekend that he didn't
go down with you but he rode back with you, say, on the Armistice Day
holiday? Do you remember?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Your memory is that he went, he rode home with you every
Friday and came back the following Monday?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Except this one weekend?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, that is what I say. If he went home with me on
Friday afternoon he always rode back with me on Monday morning. It
wasn't no added job when he would come with me on the weekend. He would
ride home with me on Friday and he would come back with me on Monday.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you that he had or had not applied for a
driver's license?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; he had not except he told me he was going down to take
it.

Mr. BALL. He never told you that he had or had not?

Mr. FRAZIER. No.

Mr. BALL. And he never told you whether he had obtained a driver's
license?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to him on whether or not he could drive a
car, knew how to drive a car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, I believe the first afternoon, the first time
we was going home and we were talking about that and he said he was
working on his driving license then, and then naturally like I told you
several weeks later, then he told me he was going to take his driving
test and I assumed he could drive a car being as old as he was because
most everybody in the State of Texas by the time you are my age if you
can't drive a car something is wrong with you.

Mr. BALL. He did never say whether he could or couldn't?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever ask you about the parts of a car?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe he did.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember any conversation when he asked you what the
clutch was?

Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, yes. We got talking about that. He noticed, you know,
most cars as old as mine, you know most of them are standard shift,
and when I bought this old car it kind of fooled me it had automatic
transmission on it so we got talking about it on the way home driving
home and I told him that I really prefer a standard because you know,
they are a lot easier to work on and you know, when an automatic goes
dead it goes dead, there is no rolling a couple of feet and jumping on
the clutch and starting when the battery is down.

And I remember he said it was a little bit different to drive with a
clutch. I said, if you are not used to it, but if you get used to it.
You have to find a friction point on any car, even on Chevrolet or
Ford, you know yourself the friction points on a clutch and the brakes
are different adjusted on every car you drive.

And I told you there is nothing you do. You just have to get used to
a car of the individual, you can drive one car to do it, and you can
drive another one it may take you a couple of days to get used to it.

Mr. BALL. He is the one who mentioned the clutch, is he, that you
didn't have a clutch?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

I guess he noticed that I didn't have a clutch.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Did he pay for any part of the trip, buy your gasoline?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. I never did ask him. Because like I
said I drove over there anyway and it doesn't take any more to drive
one guy than it does to drive a carload.

Mr. BALL. Did he offer to pay any time?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he never did.

Mr. BALL. At any time coming back after a weekend did you ever stop at
a restaurant for breakfast?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we never did.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever stop on the way home on Friday night and buy
anything?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; stopped one time and bought some gas, I remember.

Mr. BALL. Did he pay for it?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did he offer to?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him have any money in his possession, bills,
change?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never did see him out playing around with any
money.

Mr. BALL. On the way back and forth did you talk very much to each
other?

Mr. FRAZIER. N,. sir; not very much. He is, probably in your line of
business you have probably seen a lot of guys who talk a lot and some
don't and he was one of these types that just didn't talk. And I have
seen, you know, I am not very old but I have seen a lot of guys in my
time, just going to school, different boys and girls, some talk a lot
and some don't, so I didn't think anything strange about that.

About the only time you could get anything out of the talking was about
babies, you know, he had one and he was expecting another, that was
one way he had him get that job because his wife was pregnant and I
would always get something out of it when I asked him about the babies
because it seemed he was very fond of children because when I asked
him he chuckled and told me about what he was doing about the babies
over the weekend and sometimes we would talk about the weather, and
sometimes he would go to work and it would be cloudy in the morning and
it would come out that afternoon after work, sometimes during the day
and it would turn to be just one of the prettiest days you would want
anywhere, and he would say some comment about that, but not very much.

He would say a few words and then he would cut off.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you he had been to Russia, say anything about
that?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, we were talking about one time talking about
the service, and so I asked him had he ever been overseas and he said
he had, and I asked him had he ever been to Germany and he said he had
been through there.

So, most times when boys are in the service in the United States they
either go to Japan or, I say, they either go over there or you know, go
to some of these, say, like Germany or France somewhere like that.

And so other than that he told me that he had been through there.

Mr. BALL. Did he say he had been to Russia?

Mr. FRAZIER. He said, you know, like I say, he said he had been over
there and he said he had been there so I thought when he told me, yes;
he had, so I thought maybe, you know, by being, I know he told me had
been in service and I thought maybe that is how he got in.

Mr. BALL. In other words, your answer is yes; he did tell you he had
been in Russia?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did he go into detail and tell you how he got there and what
he did there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, he didn't. I, to be frank with you I, was more
interested about France and Germany and I asked him about them towns
and he told me he liked France, I mean he said not that he didn't like
France, he said people in France was more the kind to con the United
States boys out of their money and he was in Germany there 2 or 3 days
and he said he liked Germany better than France because that is one
reason. Because he said if you didn't really know how to count that
French money them French guys would really take you.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything about being in the Marines?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; he told me he was a Marine.

Mr. BALL. That he had been to Japan?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't say he had been to Japan.

Mr. BALL. Ever talk about politics?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Ever mention any subjects like, political parties, the
Democrats, Republicans?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Ever mention anything about Communists, Marxists or any words
like that did he use?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where he met his wife?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever talk much about his wife?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't. I say, like I said, he was just a guy
who didn't talk very much at all.

Mr. BALL. At the Texas School Book Depository, you have lunch,
45-minute lunch hour, don't you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you pack your lunch from home?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir, I always took lunch.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not when Oswald came back with you
on any Monday morning or any weekend did he pack his lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL. He did?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. When he rode with me, I say he always brought
lunch except that one day on November 22 he didn't bring his lunch that
day.

Mr. BALL. But every other day he brought a lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, when he rode with me.

Mr. BALL. Would he bring it in a paper sack or what kind of a container?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; like a little paper sack you get out of a
grocery store, you have seen these little old sacks that you could buy,
sandwich bag, sack.

Mr. BALL. Did you carry your lunch in a paper sack?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. There is a lunch room in the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that on the first floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; on the second floor.

Mr. BALL. There is some kind of a recreation room on the first floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. There is a little domino room there where some of the guys
go in and play dominoes.

Mr. BALL. But the lunch room is on the second floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Do they sell any food there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they don't. About all they sell in the lunch room
is different types of soft drinks and then near the window, the men who
work in the offices there they have coffee there, you can drink coffee
up there, I never did. Then you have an assortment of cookies and
candies and peanuts and so forth on the machine there. That is about
all they have.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not Oswald packed his lunch,
brought his lunch on other days, the days that he didn't ride with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I don't know whether he brought his
lunch because I will tell you one way, some guys bring their lunch
there and some guys buy it there because we have a caterer service, you
see, comes around about 10 o'clock the man comes around and several
of the boys they go out there and buy their lunch from the catering
service.

Mr. BALL. Then later on at 11:45?

Mr. FRAZIER. 12 o'clock is when we always eat lunch.

Mr. BALL. 12 to 12:45?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. When you get off your job, did you usually go to the lunch
room on the second floor to eat your lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; most of the time I don't. Most of the time you
see several of us guys sitting down at our own table and we just sit
there. I say we usually go up there to get something to drink and I say
I have ate up there several times but most of the times I eat with the
guys I work with.

Usually we just sit down and eat, and we lay down on the big tables
there and sometimes talk or go to sleep.

Mr. BALL. That is on the first floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice where Oswald had his lunch usually?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Now, I say we have a refrigerator there, some of the boys put their
lunches in there.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever eat lunch with Oswald?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never have.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him eating lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never have seen him eat lunch. I have seen him
go to the Doctor Pepper machine by the refrigerator and get a Doctor
Pepper but I never have seen him, you might say, sit right down and eat
his lunch.

Mr. BALL. In driving back and forth with Oswald did you ever hear
him--did he ever talk about guns?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he never did.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you he owned a gun?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did Oswald ever say anything to you about buying an
automobile in any of these trips?

Mr. FRAZIER. One time we were talking about it, he said he thought he
would just buy him an old car, you know, like mine. I say most models
like that you can get them pretty cheap and as far as going back and
forth for work that is about all they are good for.

I said, "You don't need a new car to be used for going back and forth.
You don't need it unless you drive a good-sized distance."

But that is what he said in the long run he planned to buy one but so
far as I know he never did.

Mr. BALL. Did he say that once or more than once?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; just one time.

Mr. BALL. When he said he would get an old car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you he had gone to an old car dealer?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you he had tried out a car?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. So far as I--like I say, that one time, that
is as far as I can ever recall that we even talked much about
anything--about cars--except a while ago he asked me--we were talking
about the clutch and automatic transmission and so forth.

Mr. BALL. There is a bus service between Dallas and Irving?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; there is.

Mr. BALL. Can you get the bus anywhere near the Texas School Book
Depository?

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you I will say I have never ridden the
bus from Irving over there, but I assume you can get off there just
like any other bus at any street corner you want to.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what the fare is?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Is there a toll charge to call from Dallas to Irving?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it is not.

Mr. BALL. For 10 cents you can call there, can you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say just for your regular telephone bill, you just
pick it up and call.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Now, there was the one date that Oswald came to you and asked you to
drive him back to Irving, it was not a Friday, was it?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it wasn't.

Mr. BALL. It was on a Thursday.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Was that the 21st of November?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Well, tell us about that.

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, we were standing like I said at the
four-headed table about half as large as this, not, quite half as
large, but anyway I was standing there getting the orders in and he
said, "Could I ride home with you this afternoon?"

And I said, "Sure. You know, like I told you, you can go home with me
any time you want to, like I say anytime you want to go see your wife
that is all right with me."

So automatically I knew it wasn't Friday, I come to think it wasn't
Friday and I said, "Why are you going home today?"

And he says, "I am going home to get some curtain rods." He said, "You
know, put in an apartment."

He wanted to hang up some curtains and I said, "Very well." And I never
thought more about it and I had some invoices in my hands for some
orders and I walked on off and started filling the orders.

Mr. BALL. This was on what floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. This was on the first floor.

Mr. BALL. About what time in the morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say sometime between eight and ten, because I go
to work at eight and I would break at ten.

Mr. BALL. Was it at the break time or before?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was before the break.

Mr. BALL. It was before noon then?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see him at the noon hour?

Mr. FRAZIER. That day?

Mr. BALL. That day.

Mr. FRAZIER. I don't recall, to be frank with you. You know, I will
just be frank with you, I say just like after a guy works there for
a while and he comes by and he walks by you, you don't pay so much
attention but say like somebody else comes in there strange, you
automatically just look at them.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again until quitting time?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, to be frank with you, like I said, the only
time--you know, like I say, he didn't talk very much and about the
only time--other than like I told you about talking about them babies
and about the weather sometimes he would ask me some questions about a
book because down there, I say, if you have ever been acquainted with
books a lot of times maybe just a little bit of difference in a title
or something like that would make the difference in what type of book
they want and sometimes maybe they will forget to put that on there and
you look at the price.

If you can tell the price, some editions we have a paperback and some
we have hard bound and the price can automatically tell you which one
they want, and sometimes he would ask me something like that which
book do they want and I would tell him and that was about the only
conversation we had.

Mr. BALL. You didn't talk any more with him that day concerning the
ride home?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. But you did go home with him?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is he rode home with me.

Mr. BALL. What time did you get off from work?

Mr. FRAZIER. 4:40.

Mr. BALL. What time did you get to Irving?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, usually get there, if you make good time, get there
maybe around 5:20 or 5:25. But if you catch the traffic and catch the
train crossing the tracks, it is usually about 5:30 or 5:35, it is just
according to how bad the traffic is.

If you get ahead of it before it starts coming out, you can make pretty
good headway.

Mr. BALL. Did you make any stop in the car before you got home?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe we did.

Mr. BALL. Did the two of you walk together down to the parking lot?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. BALL. And you dropped him off at the place where his wife was
staying, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I believe I did. I, to be frank with you I, say
sometimes he rode home with me, sometimes--a little store not too far
from the house, there and if I was going to the store I would just
drop him off by the house, but if I wasn't going to the store he would
usually go on to the corner near the house and walk the rest of the way
to the house up to where his wife was staying just about a half a block
from my house up to where he was, his wife was staying, so he would
walk there just a little bit.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember if you talked to him any on the walk down two
or three blocks down to the parking lot, anything said that you can
remember?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe so.

Mr. BALL. When you got in the car and went home do you remember if you
said anything, if you said anything to him, or if he said anything to
you?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe he did. Like I said, he didn't
talk very much. About the only time we would talk was about the weather
and babies, something like that.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember this day whether or not you let him walk to
the house where his wife was staying?

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I can't remember positively whether
I let him off at the house or whether he got out there where I lived,
just to be frank with you.

Mr. BALL. You know where the house is, don't you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where Mrs. Paine lives?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. How far is that from your house?

Mr. FRAZIER. Like I say, it is just about half a block up the street.

Mr. BALL. It is on the same street, is it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, we lived at the corner of Westbrook and Fifth
Street, and Fifth Street runs on up, you know, and I say they live on
Fifth Street.

Mr. BALL. What direction does Fifth run, east, west, north or south?

Mr. FRAZIER. It runs east and west.

Mr. BALL. East and west. And you live on the corner of Westbrook and
Fifth?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And Paine's house is east or west of your house?

Mr. FRAZIER. It is west.

Mr. BALL. It is west of of your house?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. About a half block?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. On the same street. Fifth Street?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. What side of the street do you live on, the north side or
south side of Fifth Street?

Mr. FRAZIER. North side.

Mr. BALL. What side of the street do the Paine's live on, the north or
south side of Fifth Street?

Mr. FRAZIER. North.

Mr. BALL. You both live on the north side?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. So to walk from Paine's house to your house you walk east
along the north side of Fifth Street across Westbrook, is that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Now, from the corner of Westbrook and Fifth you walk west
on the same side of the street on the north side.

Mr. BALL. On the north side?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. From your house to Paine's?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, you walk west.

Mr. BALL. And from Paine's house to yours. OK.

Now, did you see Oswald any that night, the Thursday night----

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. You brought him home.

Next morning what time did you get up? What time did you get up the
next morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe I got up around 6:30, that is the time I usually
get up, right around 6:30 there.

Mr. BALL. Always eat your breakfast before you go to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember the night before, that is after you got home
that night, that your sister asked you how it happened that Oswald came
home with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; I believe she did or something. We got to talking
about something and said, I told her that he had rode home with me
and told her he said he was going to come home and pick up some
curtain rods or something. I usually don't talk too much to my sister,
sometimes she is not there when I am in because she is either at the
store or something like that and I am either when she comes in as I say
I am playing with the little nieces and we don't talk too much about
work or something like that.

Mr. BALL. This night, this evening, do you remember you did talk to her
about the fact that Oswald had come home with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell her what he had told you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. I believe she said why did he come home now and
I said, well, he says he was going to get some curtain rods.

Mr. BALL. The next morning you had breakfast about what time?

Mr. FRAZIER. Between 7 and 7:15, that is the time I usually, I usually
come to the breakfast table about 7.

Mr. BALL. Breakfast table in the kitchen?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is in the den.

Mr. BALL. And the kitchen windows look out on what street, Westbrook or
Fifth?

Mr. FRAZIER. Westbrook.

Mr. BALL. They look onto Westbrook?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. There is a back door, is there, to the kitchen?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; there is. I say when we come in there we have a
double carport more or less type of garage.

Mr. BALL. Is that on Westbrook?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; the entrance to the garage there, more or less
carport; yes, the entrance is from Westbrook.

Mr. BALL. As you were having breakfast did your mother say anything to
you about----

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say----

Mr. BALL. Oswald?

Mr. FRAZIER. I was sitting there eating my breakfast there, so sitting
there, I usually talk to my little nieces, you know, they have them
cartoons on for a while and we usually talk a little bit back and forth
while eating breakfast and I was just finishing my coffee there and
my sister, you know, was working over there around, you know the sink
there, and she was fixing my lunch so she was somewhere around there
over on the cabinets fixing the cabinets and mother just happened to
glance up and saw this man, you know, who was Lee looking in the window
for me and she said, "Who is that?"

And I said, "That is Lee," and naturally he just walked around and so I
thought he just walked around there on the carport right there close to
the door and so I told her I had to go, so I went in there and brushed
my teeth right quick and come through there and I usually have my coat
laying somewhere on the chair and picked it up and put it on and by
that time my sister had my lunch, you know, in a sack and sitting over
there on the washer where I picked it up right there by the door and I
just walked on out and we got in the car.

Mr. BALL. Now, did your sister say anything as you were having
breakfast?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; she didn't say anything to me at all.

Mr. BALL. She didn't say anything to you either about Oswald or did she?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; say, she didn't say, you know, when I looked up
and saw him I knew who it was.

Mr. BALL. You saw him?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. What was he doing?

Mr. FRAZIER. He just looked through the kitchen window. To see from
there on the ground outside there. I say you don't have to be any
height at all, you don't have to be too tall to be able to look in the
kitchen window there.

I say, if you have the window open you can see in, if you have light on
in there.

Mr. BALL. When your mother mentioned, "Who is that," you looked up and
saw Lee Oswald in the kitchen window?

Mr. FRAZIER. I just saw him for a split second and when he saw I saw
him, I guess he heard me say, "Well, it is time to go," and he walked
down by the back door there.

Representative FORD. When he would go with you on Monday, on any
Monday, was this the same procedure for getting to, getting in contact
with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean coming in there and looking through the window?

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it wasn't. I say, that is the first time he had
ever done that. I say, most times I would usually call him, you know,
I was already out in the car fixing to go out the driveway there, and,
you know, around to pick him up if he hadn't come down but most times,
once in a while I picked him up at the house and another time he was
already coming down the sidewalk to the house when I was fixing to pick
him up and I usually picked him up around the corner there.

Representative FORD. Did this different method of him meeting you raise
any questions in your mind?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it didn't. I just thought maybe, you know, he
just left a little bit earlier but when I looked up and saw that the
clock was, I knew I was the one who was running a little bit late
because, as I say, I was talking, sitting there eating breakfast and
talking to the little nieces, it was later than I thought it was.

Mr. BALL. When you went out the back door where was Oswald?

Mr. FRAZIER. He was standing just a few feet there outside the back
door there.

Mr. BALL. He wasn't in the car?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he wasn't.

Mr. BALL. Was he near the car?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he wasn't.

You see, always I keep my car parked outside the carport there, on the
other side.

Mr. BALL. He was just a few feet outside your back door when you came
out?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you walk together to the car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; we did.

Mr. BALL. And you got in one side and he got in the other?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes. Right in front there.

Mr. BALL. Did you say usually you had to go by and pick him up?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I said I had a couple of times. Most of the time,
you know, he was usually walking down the sidewalk as I was driving
out of the driveway so, therefore, I didn't have to go up to the house
there to pick him up. I just usually picked him up around the corner
because he was usually on the sidewalk and I just stopped and picked
him up.

Mr. BALL. Were you later than usual that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe we were, because we got to work
on time. I say, when I looked at the clock, after I glanced he was
there a split second and I just turned around and looked at the clock
to see what time it was and it was right around 7:21 then and I went in
and brushed my teeth real quick and running through the house put my
coat on and we left.

Mr. BALL. You both got in the car about the same time?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. All right.

When you got in the car did you say anything to him or did he say
anything to you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Let's see, when I got in the car I have a kind of habit
of glancing over my shoulder and so at that time I noticed there was a
package laying on the back seat, I didn't pay too much attention and I
said, "What's the package, Lee?"

And he said, "Curtain rods," and I said, "Oh, yes, you told me you was
going to bring some today."

That is the reason, the main reason he was going over there that
Thursday afternoon when he was to bring back some curtain rods, so I
didn't think any more about it when he told me that.

Mr. BALL. What did the package look like?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I will be frank with you, I would just, it is
right as you get out of the grocery store, just more or less out of a
package, you have seen some of these brown paper sacks you can obtain
from any, most of the stores, some varieties, but it was a package just
roughly about two feet long.

Mr. BALL. It was, what part of the back seat was it in?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was in his side over on his side in the far back.

Mr. BALL. How much of that back seat, how much space did it take up?

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say roughly around 2 feet of the seat.

Mr. BALL. From the side of the seat over to the center, is that the way
you would measure it?

Mr. FRAZIER. If, if you were going to measure it that way from the end
of the seat over toward the center, right. But I say like I said I just
roughly estimate and that would be around two feet, give and take a few
inches.

Mr. BALL. How wide was the package?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I would say the package was about that wide.

Mr. BALL. How wide would you say that would be?

Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, say, around 5 inches, something like that. 5, 6 inches
or there. I don't----

Mr. BALL. The paper, was the color of the paper, that you would get in
a grocery store, is that it, a bag in a grocery store?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. You have seen, not a real light color but you know
normally, the normal color about the same color, you have seen these
kinds of heavy duty bags you know like you obtain from the grocery
store, something like that, about the same color of that, paper sack
you get there.

Mr. BALL. Was there anything more said about the paper sack on the way
into town?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there wasn't.

Mr. BALL. What route did you take into town that day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Went down--you know, I told you I had two routes; that day
I went down, you know, Fifth Street runs into Sixth after you cross
the Storey Road there, so I just went on down Sixth until I come to
O'Connor, and then took a left on O'Connor and it takes you right on
out to Stemmons and from there I went right on into Stemmons and come
up Commerce, and you go up Commerce, there until you hit Record Street,
that is one block over from Houston and then I went down until I hit
McKinney and then it goes right down to the warehouse and then take a
left and you go right around to the parking lot.

Mr. BALL. You didn't stop any place on your way in?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Park in the parking lot?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where did you park in the parking lot this time?

Mr. FRAZIER. I parked in the same place the picture I showed you there.

Mr. BALL. As shown in the picture. That is Exhibit No. 361.

Anything else said about curtain rods?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there wasn't.

Mr. BALL. Anything else said about the package?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; there wasn't.

Mr. BALL. Who got out of the car first?

Mr. FRAZIER. He did.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember any conversation on the way in about anything?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I asked him did he have fun playing with them
babies and he chuckled and said he did. And so that morning I said just
a few minutes after we started you know it was a cloudy day and it
started misting and rain and by the time we got out on the Freeway I
said, you know, how those trucks throw that grime on the windshield and
finally it was getting pretty thick on there with spots of rain, and
I turned on the windshield wiper and you know how grime spatters your
windshield and I said, "I wish it would rain or just quit altogether, I
wish it would do something to clear off the windshield," and the drops
started getting larger so eventually it cleaned off the windshield and
by the time I got down to Dallas there I just turned off the windshield.

Just a few clouds, and rained a little bit to get out of it. But other
than that just saying the weather was messy, that is about all.

Mr. BALL. Was it foggy?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; not in too particular. I say in other words, just
old cloudy, dull looking day and like I say fine mist of rain and after
we got a little bit further we got into larger drops.

Mr. BALL. Was there anything said about the President coming to Dallas
that day?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; it wasn't.

Mr. BALL. Did he say anything about that the day before?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever have any conversation with him with reference to
the President's visit to Texas?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you got to the parking lot who got out of the car first?

Mr. FRAZIER. He did.

Mr. BALL. You didn't get out immediately then?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I was sitting there, say, looked at my watch and
somewhere around 7 or 8 minutes until and I saw we had a few minutes
and I sat there, and as I say you can see the Freeway, Stemmons
Freeway, from the warehouse and also the trains coming back and forth
and I was sitting there.

What I was doing--glanced up and watching cars for a minute but I was
letting my engine run and getting to charge up my battery, because when
you stop and start you have to charge up your battery.

Mr. BALL. Did you have your lunch beside you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice whether or not Lee had a package that looked
like a lunch package that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. You know like I told you earlier. I say, he didn't take
his lunch because I remember right when I got in the car I asked him
where was his lunch and he said he was going to buy his lunch that day.

Mr. BALL. He told you that that day, did he?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. That is right. So, I assumed he was going to buy
it, you know, from that catering service man like a lot of the boys do.
They don't bring their lunch but they go out and buy their lunch there.

Mr. BALL. What did he do about the package in the back seat when he got
out of the car?

Mr. FRAZIER. Like I say, I was watching the gages and watched the car
for a few minutes before I cut it off.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER. He got out of the car and he was wearing the jacket that
has the big sleeves in them and he put the package that he had, you
know, that he told me was curtain rods up under his arm, you know, and
so he walked down behind the car and standing over there at the end of
the cyclone fence waiting for me to get out of the car, and so quick as
I cut the engine off and started out of the car, shut the door just as
I was starting out just like getting out of the car, he started walking
off and so I followed him in.

So, eventually there he kept getting a little further ahead of me and
I noticed we had plenty of time to get there because it is not too far
from the Depository and usually I walk around and watch them switching
the trains because you have to watch where you are going if you have to
cross the tracks.

One day you go across one track and maybe there would be some cars
sitting there and there would be another diesel coming there, so you
have to watch when you cross the tracks, I just walked along and I just
like to watch them switch the cars, so eventually he kept getting a
little further ahead of me and by that time we got down there pretty
close to the Depository Building there, I say, he would be as much as,
I would say, roughly 50 feet in front of me but I didn't try to catch
up with him because I knew I had plenty of time so I just took my time
walking up there.

Mr. BALL. Did you usually walk up there together.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; we did.

Mr. BALL. Is this the first time that he had ever walked ahead of you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he did.

Mr. BALL. You say he had the package under his arm when you saw him?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You mean one end of it under the armpit?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; he had it up just like you stick it right under
your arm like that.

Mr. BALL. And he had the lower part----

Mr. FRAZIER. The other part with his right hand.

Mr. BALL. Right hand?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. He carried it then parallel to his body?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, straight up and down.

Representative FORD. Under his right arm?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did it look to you as if there was something heavy in the
package?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I will be frank with you, I didn't pay much
attention to the package because like I say before and after he told me
that it was curtain rods and I didn't pay any attention to it, and he
never had lied to me before so I never did have any reason to doubt his
word.

Mr. BALL. Did it appear to you there was some, more than just paper he
was carrying, some kind of a weight he was carrying?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, yes, sir; I say, because one reason I know that
because I worked in a department store before and I had uncrated
curtain rods when they come in, and I know if you have seen when they
come straight from the factory you know how they can bundle them up and
put them in there pretty compact, so he told me it was curtain rods so
I didn't think any more about the package whatsoever.

Mr. BALL. Well, from the way he carried it, the way he walked, did it
appear he was carrying something that had more than the weight of a
paper?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, you know like I say, I didn't pay much
attention to the package other than I knew he had it under his arm and
I didn't pay too much attention the way he was walking because I was
walking along there looking at the railroad cars and watching the men
on the diesel switch them cars and I didn't pay too much attention on
how he carried the package at all.

Mr. BALL. I will show you this picture again, this map, which is the
Commission's Exhibit No. 361, and would you show us the way he walked,
the course he walked from the place your car was parked up to the Texas
School Book Depository. You come around here and here is a black pen.
Show us the course that he walked.

Mr. FRAZIER. Like I say, I had that car parked.

Mr. BALL. Put an "X" there which will represent your car.

Mr. FRAZIER. All right (indicating).

Mr. BALL. That is where your car was parked?

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say roughly like in there, you know like the
picture shows right in there.

Mr. BALL. Now, draw a line to show the way that he walked.

Mr. FRAZIER. O.K.

Mr. BALL. The direction he walked.

Mr. FRAZIER. All right.

Like I say, he was standing right about there when I got out of the
car so naturally he started off walking so we just come on right on
just like you would come across these tracks right here, and he was
coming right on along the fence like that. Just coming right on, right
here now is the School Book Depository, right, so he was coming right
on down this fence there and he was coming across these tracks, and
standing right in here somewhere at the door.

Mr. BALL. Door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. At the end of that put a "XY", so "X" to "XY" will represent
the course he walked. It shows "XY".

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Then "X" to "XY" is the course he took, is that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you go in the same door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. You walked the same direction?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Now when he went in the door you were about 50 feet behind
him?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. The last time I saw him I was right in this area
coming across these railroad tracks and I just happened to glance up
and see him going through the door there and shut the door.

Mr. BALL. Let's see, the last time you saw him he was at the door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Which is at "XY" and you were crossing the railroad tracks on
Pacific Avenue?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I say this is Houston.

Mr. BALL. Pacific runs east and west?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Put a mark there, put a "Z" there as to your location.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right in there.

Mr. BALL. That is about where you were, a "Z" when he entered the door
at "XY"?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Now, you went on in the Building, did you, afterwards?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. I went on in.

Mr. BALL. Well, the first floor of the Texas School Book Depository is
fairly clear, isn't it, it is clear of partitions?

Mr. FRAZIER. Pretty well. I will say we have bins after you get so far.

Mr. BALL. Toward the middle of the floor you have bins?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee as you walked in the door?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Here is Commission 362 which we will show you. I will put it
up high so everyone can see it. There is a picture in the lower left
corner which is marked "Exterior View of Entrance Door from Houston
Street Loading Dock."

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Is that the door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is the door that Lee entered?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And that is also the door that you entered, is that correct?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And over to the right here is the interior view of entrance
door.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is the same door, isn't it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Now, this door, you see right there is that door right
there.

Mr. BALL. In other words, the door in the lower left-hand corner is the
outside door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And as you walk through--and this is the door, the outside
door, is shown in the picture on the lower right-hand corner?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, right there, that is this same door you are
looking at over here.

Mr. BALL. Then there is an interior door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Leading into the interior that is also shown there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is sort of, what is it--a little corridor that you walk
through?

Mr. FRAZIER. I say it is just about that distance from here over to
that man over there.

Mr. BALL. Let's take a look there.

Mr. FRAZIER. It is called the loading zone there.

Mr. BALL. This map shows certain steps up, doesn't it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Where is the door that you entered or that he entered.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right here.

Mr. BALL. That is the door. Is that covered, is that area covered with
a ceiling roof?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it is.

Mr. BALL. And this is also walled in, is it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. The railroad track runs along here.

Mr. BALL. After you get into this outside shed how did you get into the
first floor of the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. FRAZIER. Through that door.

Mr. BALL. Through the door there, into the interior door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. How much of the first floor here is clear so that you can see
anybody there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Roughly say, let's see, just a few feet back, you know
here is the door right here.

Mr. BALL. Whose door?

Mr. FRAZIER. Mr. Shelley's.

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER. Just a few feet back in here is where the bins start, they
run this way.

Mr. BALL. Can you mark in this where the bins start, the place?

Mr. FRAZIER. Here.

Mr. BALL. Just draw a line across, you don't need to draw in the bins
but just where the bins start and we we will know it is the area.

Mr. FRAZIER. Somewhere right in here.

Mr. BALL. Draw the line clear across.

We will mark the line "A" on one side and "B" on the other so that we
can refer to it.

Now, the area between, all the area shown in here from entrance to line
"AB", is clear, is it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Now, the line from "AB" to the Elm Street side there are
bins, are they?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And are those bins man high?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. 6, 7 feet?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Like I say these bins, we have two or three that
run across this way, like I have this line drawn, and they have broken
spaces, and you can see a man on the other side of these bins because
they are not sealed up in the back.

In other words, you can put books in, say, from this side and go on the
other side and have another. Anyway, we have more like these window
here.

Mr. BALL. The windows on Elm Street?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. We have some bins running this way, over here,
several bins, two or three over here, and two or three over here.

Mr. BALL. Is this the only entrance to the first floor of the Building,
the one you have shown us?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir, it is not.

Mr. BALL. What other entrance is there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right here is the main entrance.

Mr. BALL. The main entrance?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, coming on through here.

Mr. BALL. There are two entrances. There is a main entrance in the
front of the Building or the Elm Street entrance, and then there is the
door through which you entered the first floor, is that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, then we have another.

Mr. BALL. Where?

Mr. FRAZIER. Out over here, let's see if I can find it, where the
garage where we have the truck. Let's see.

Mr. BALL. There is an overhead door here.

Mr. FRAZIER. I see, right through here now, I see right through this
door here we come out right here and we come out in this area right in
here where we have another dock right out in this area right here, in
that area there.

Mr. BALL. That would be----

Mr. FRAZIER. That would be one, two, three. From this loading, like I
say, where we keep the truck.

Mr. BALL. Is this overhead door usually covered, usually down closed,
rather?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I say we keep it closed, and we have it here
back in cold weather and we kept it closed and like I say when you go
out there and get into the truck like you are going to drive the truck.

Mr. BALL. Mark an arrow that you say is the entrance or exit, mark an
arrow going out.

Mr. FRAZIER. Going out.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Now, this day did you see Lee Oswald the rest of the morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I saw him back and forth, you know, that morning
walking around, filling books and so forth, filling orders, had
invoices filling orders.

Mr. BALL. When you came in that morning to go to work where did you go
first?

Mr. FRAZIER. I went like I did every morning, I went down in the
basement there and hung up my coat and put up my lunch.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald down there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Then you went to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. How did you get to the basement?

Mr. FRAZIER. Went down through the, now over there where they have--are
you familiar with the Depository Building?

Mr. BALL. Only through the map.

Mr. FRAZIER. We have the----

Mr. BALL. There is the map of the first floor. Does it show the steps
leading down to the basement?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. You see the one there where you have the arrow
that is one entrance to the basement and that is the entrance I used
the biggest part of the time, that is the one I go down.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. During the morning you say you saw Oswald around filling
orders?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Were you on the sixth floor any that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. One time just a few seconds. I said to Mr. Shelley we had
some book returns. They had sent back and he told me to count the books
and make sure they were all there and put them in the space and so I
took the elevator and loaded them on with a two-wheeler and so I know
where they went, and I went to the shelf off the elevator and put them
on the shelf and turned around and went right on down.

Mr. BALL. Were they doing some work there that day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they were.

Representative FORD. What time was that?

Mr. FRAZIER. When I went to put up the stock?

Representative FORD. Yes. On the sixth floor.

Mr. FRAZIER. That was sometime between 8 and 10 o'clock. I say it was
the early part of the morning.

Mr. BALL. What kind of work did you notice they were doing up there?

Mr. FRAZIER. As well as I remember they were moving stock, I believe
putting up some stock, straightening up the stock.

Mr. BALL. Any work done on the floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. I don't remember if they were working on the floor or not.
They may have because upon the fifth floor I know we have done the
fifth floor.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember the names of any workmen you saw on the sixth
floor that morning you were there?

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe Billy was up there, Billy Lovelady, but so far
as I can say I went and put books on the shelf and turned around and
walked back and glanced up when I was coming back, I didn't stay any
length of time because when we are pretty busy, some fill out orders
and some doing something else and if you have a lot of orders to fill
you haven't got a lot of time to sit around and be talking.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Oswald on the sixth floor any time that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. I didn't because like I say that was the only
time I went up there at all that day and I was just up there for a few
seconds.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him any that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. I don't believe I did much unless he asked me something
about a book like I told you, and I was always willing to help anybody
I can.

Mr. BALL. Now, you knew that the President was going to pass that
building sometime that morning, didn't you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I heard he would.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to some of the men around there about it?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever talk to Oswald about that?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. What time did you knock off for lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. 12.

Mr. BALL. Did you eat your lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; not right then I didn't. I say, you know, he was
supposed to come by during our lunch hour so you don't get very many
chances to see the President of the United States and being an old
Texas boy, and [he] never having been down to Texas very much I went
out there to see him and just like everybody else was, I was standing
on the steps there and watched for the parade to come by and so I did
and I stood there until he come by.

Mr. BALL. You went out there after you quit work?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, for lunch.

Mr. BALL. About 12 o'clock?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And you hadn't eaten your lunch up to that time?

Mr. FRAZIER. No.

Mr. BALL. Did you go out there with somebody?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Who did you go out there with?

Mr. FRAZIER. I stayed around there pretty close to Mr. Shelley and this
boy Billy Lovelady and just standing there, people talking and just
talking about how pretty a day it turned out to be, because I told you
earlier it was an old cloudy and misty day and then it didn't look like
it was going to be a pretty day at all.

Mr. BALL. And it turned out to be a good day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Pretty sunshiny day.

Mr. BALL. Warm?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was pretty warm.

Mr. BALL. Then let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were there.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Anybody else you can remember?

Mr. FRAZIER. There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked
upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last
name.

Mr. BALL. Were you near the steps?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step
down from the top there.

Mr. BALL. One step down from the top of the steps?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; standing there by the rail.

Mr. BALL. By steps we are talking about the steps of the entrance to
the Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Shown in this picture?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Which is Commission's Exhibit No. 362. Can you come over here
and show us about where you were standing?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Like I told you this was an entrance right here.

Mr. BALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. FRAZIER. We have a bar rail running about half way up here. This
was the first step and I was standing right around there.

Mr. BALL. Put a mark there. Your name is Frazier, put an "F" there for
Frazier.

Mr. FRAZIER. O.K.

Mr. BALL. In the picture that would show you about there, would it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; you can see, just see, the top, about the top
rail there, I was standing right in there.

Mr. BALL. Right in there?

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I say, shadow from the roof there
knocked the sun from out our eyes, you wouldn't have any glare in the
eyes standing there.

Mr. BALL. There was a roof over your head, was there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you stand there for 30 minutes or--tell us how long you
stayed there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I stood there until the parade come by.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the President go by?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anything?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, just right after he went by he hadn't hardly
got by, I heard a sound and if you have ever been around motorcycles
you know how they backfire, and so I thought one of them motorcycles
backfired because right before his car came down, now there were
several of these motorcycle policemen, and they took off down toward
the underpass down there, and so I thought, you know, that one of them
motorcycles backfired, but it wasn't just a few seconds that, you know,
I heard two more of the same type of, you know, sounds, and by that
time people was running everywhere, and falling down and screaming,
and naturally then I knew something was wrong, and so I come to the
conclusion somebody else, somebody was shooting at somebody and I
figured it was him.

Mr. BALL. You figured it was who?

Mr. FRAZIER. I figured it was somebody shooting at President Kennedy
because people were running and hollering so I just stood still. I have
always been taught when something like that happened or anywhere as far
as that it is always best to stand still because if you run that makes
you look guilty sure enough.

Mr. BALL. Now, then, did you have any impression at that time as to the
direction from which the sound came?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, to be frank with you I thought it come from down
there, you know, where that underpass is. There is a series, quite a
few number, of them railroad tracks running together and from where
I was standing it sounded like it was coming from down the railroad
tracks there.

Mr. BALL. Were you able to see the President, could you still see the
President's car when you heard the first sound?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I couldn't. From there, you know, people were
standing out there on the curb, you see, and you know it drops, you
know the ground drops, off there as you go down toward that underpass
and I couldn't see any of it because people were standing up there in
my way, but however, when he did turn that corner there, there wasn't
anybody standing there in the street and you could see good there, but
after you got on past down there you couldn't see anything.

Mr. BALL. You didn't see the President's car at the time you heard the
sound?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. But you stood right there, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. Stood right where I was.

Mr. BALL. And Mr. Shelley was still standing there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And also Billy Lovelady?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The three of you didn't go any place?

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe Billy and them walked down toward that direction
but I didn't. I just stood where I was. I hadn't moved at all.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody after that come into the Building while
you were there?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean somebody other that didn't work there?

Mr. BALL. A police officer.

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I stood there a few minutes, you know, and some
people who worked there; you know normally started to go back into the
Building because a lot of us didn't eat our lunch, and so we started
back into the Building and it wasn't but just a few minutes that there
were a lot of police officers and so forth all over the Building there.

Mr. BALL. Then you went back into the Building, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And before you went back into the Building no police officer
came up the steps and into the building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I know. They could walk by the way and I was
standing there talking to somebody else and didn't see it.

Mr. BALL. Did anybody say anything about what had happened, did you
hear anybody say anything about the President had been shot?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; right before I went back, some girl who had
walked down a little bit further where I was standing on the steps, and
somebody come back and said somebody had shot President Kennedy.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who it was who told you that?

Mr. FRAZIER. Sir?

Mr. BALL. Do you know who the girl was who told you that?

Mr. FRAZIER. She didn't tell me right directly but she just came back
and more or less in a low kind of hollering she just told several
people.

Mr. BALL. Then you went back into the Building, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And police officers came in there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would say by the time, you know some of us
went back in, and it wasn't just a few minutes, I say there were
several.

Mr. BALL. Did you stay on the first floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, stayed on the first floor there for a few minutes
and I hadn't eaten my lunch so I had my lunch down there in the
basement and I went down there to get my lunch and eat it and I walked
back up on the first floor there.

Mr. BALL. When you came back into the Building, you came in the front
door, didn't you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Did you go down to the basement immediately or did you stand
around on the first floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I stood around for several minutes there, you
know, and then, you know, eventually the ones who hadn't eaten their
lunch, some of them had taken their lunch outside.

Mr. BALL. Did other people go downstairs with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.

Mr. BALL. You went down alone, did you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you go at any time in the back end of the Building back
near the door to the loading dock?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I never did.

Mr. BALL. Perhaps I had better ask you to point out on the map here
where you were. Come over here, please.

Mr. FRAZIER. O.K.

Mr. BALL. You came in back into the Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Tell us where you went and what you did?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know like I said I come back through here
[indicating on Commission Exhibit No. 362, diagram of first floor].

Mr. BALL. By "coming back through here," you mean you came down the
hallway and into the entrance into the first floor warehouse?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, and you come by Mr. Shelley's office, that is his
counter right here, after you get in, you get off here, that is his
office, anyway, right out, I come out around here, you know where
several of the people walked around here.

Mr. BALL. That is in the bin area?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; the bins don't start automatically right up in
here. I say, there is a little bit more or less, like more or less a
hall through here, but anyway, you know, I say, you have two or three
bins.

Mr. BALL. Through here you mean there is sort of a hall after you enter
into the warehouse?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Right.

Mr. FRAZIER. From it, after you come past this counter you have several
rows of bins coming this way, but, I say, right after you get past,
say, this last bin right here running that way, right out this general
area right here you have a telephone and everything out in here.

Mr. BALL. Well, you indicated that everything that would be beyond this
line, the bin lines, would be clear on the first floor.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, beyond here.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever go into that area where it was clear before you
went downstairs?

From the time you came back into the room, did you go down into this
area which was clear before you went downstairs?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't go in here. I was right over right close
to Mr. Shelley's office right around here and sit around and talked
with some guys around there.

Mr. BALL. You are indicating around Mr. Shelley's office?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; pretty close right there, like I say more or
less right out over in here we have a----

Mr. BALL. Put a mark there.

Mr. FRAZIER. Let's see----

Mr. BALL. Put a circle to show the general area where you and the rest
of them stood around and talked.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right in there is right around near the telephone and we
were just right around in there.

Mr. BALL. Where did you go?

Mr. FRAZIER. We left, you know, after we stood and talked with some
guys there, some of them had eaten and some of them didn't, some of
them had sandwiches in their hands, so naturally I felt like eating and
I walked around the bin and walked down the steps there.

Mr. BALL. Got your lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Come back up?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't come back up. I was sitting eating
my lunch. I looked at my watch and didn't have but 10 minutes, so
I naturally ate faster than normal, so I was eating a couple of
sandwiches, and eat an apple or something and come right back up and
the guys, the people who worked there, standing around on the first
floor, some of them eating their lunches and others merely talking.

Mr. BALL. You never went back to work?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we didn't. I didn't work any more that day.

Mr. BALL. You stayed there on the job until you were told to go home?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What time did they tell you to go home?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was between 1 and 2 there sometime, roughly, I don't
know what time it was.

Mr. BALL. Had the police officers come in there and talked to you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they come in and talked to all of us. They asked
us to show our proper identification, and then they had us to write our
name down and who to get in touch with if they wanted to see us.

Mr. BALL. Did they ask you where you had been at the time the President
passed?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; they had. I told them I was out on the steps
there.

Mr. BALL. Asked you who you were with?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I told them and naturally Mr. Shelley and Billy
vouched for me and so they didn't think anything about it.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear anybody around there asking for Lee Oswald?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. At any time before you went home, did you hear anybody ask
for Lee?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe they did, because they, you know,
like one man showed us, we had to give proper identification and after
we passed him he told us to walk on then to the next man, and we, you
know, put down proper information where he could be found if they
wanted to see you and talk to you any more, and then we went on up to a
little bit more to the front entrance more toward Mr. Shelley's office
there with another man and stood there for a little while and told us
all that was there could go ahead and go home.

Mr. BALL. Then you went on home?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Representative FORD. Did all this occur after you had finished your
lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it did.

Representative FORD. Did it ever occur to you at any time following the
shooting there was something connecting the shooting with Lee Oswald
and the package?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say not particularly not at that time, I didn't
think anything about it because, to be frank with you, some were over
here, one or two would be over here talking and just strung out here,
on the first floor and I didn't think anything about it. I see some of
the guys, they go out for lunch and they come back 12:45 so I didn't
know whether he had went out to lunch or not. Some of them do every
week.

Representative FORD. Did any of the policemen interfere with your
efforts to go into the Building and eventually down into the basement
where you had your lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.

Mr. BALL. Before you left, did you look for Oswald to see about taking
him home?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; I didn't, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was there some reason why you didn't?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did. Because like I told you, he was going
home to get the curtain rods and I asked him at the time, the same
time, it would be about that, would he be going home with me Friday
afternoon like he had been doing, he said no. So naturally when they
let us go I took on off because I thought maybe they had already
dismissed him and he went on home.

Mr. BALL. When you talked to him on Thursday and he told you he
wouldn't be going home on Friday, did he tell you what he was going to
do, why he wasn't going to go home?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to him again on Friday morning as to whether or
not he had changed his mind? Did you ask him whether or not you could
pick him up at the end of the day?

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, Mr. Ball, I am not sure.

Mr. BALL. Whether you did or not.

Did anybody tell you that Lee Oswald was missing before you went home?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; they didn't.

Representative FORD. Could you describe for the Commission where you
went on the sixth floor that morning in relationship to the overall
picture of the sixth floor?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I could.

Representative FORD. Would you do so, please?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Do you have a piece of paper I can draw? [Witness draws diagram on
piece of paper.]

Let's see, right here is your two elevator shafts we have. That morning
I used this one over here.

Representative FORD. Would you mark Houston, Elm and the other streets?

Mr. FRAZIER. This is Houston, this is Elm right out here. Anyway, like
I said, I won't draw these buildings. I have these two elevator shafts
here. Quickly you come off these elevator shafts right here, we have
skids with books on them, and you see right on those skids you would
have some shelves right about like this and so I merely walked over
to the elevator with the two-wheeler we use on the dock and walked
somewhere say maybe halfway, not quite halfway, there and put up some
books, put them down on the floor there, on the floor level and so I
just turned around and come back to the elevator and come on down, and
went about my business. He had me putting up some books there on the
shelves.

Representative FORD. From this point here could you see the windows or
the area at the corner of Houston and Elm in the Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; you could. I say you could look down and see
this area back over here.

Representative FORD. Did you look over there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Right on down there, I knew where the books went so normally I didn't
have to look around. I say, I was going to get through, if you are not
familiar with the books and so forth it would take you a little longer
to find and put them up. But if you know where they go you can put them
up very quickly.

So I knew this book went in the shelf because this book we don't handle
very many of them and that is where I put books you don't handle very
many, put them in the shelf.

So I put the books in the shelf and turned around and put them in the
elevator and come on down.

Mr. BALL. Can I have this marked as Commission Exhibit 368, the diagram
just drawn by the witness to illustrate his work on the sixth floor?

The CHAIRMAN. It may be marked.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 368, for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. I have here Commission's 163, a gray blue jacket. Do you
recognize this jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see Lee Oswald wear this jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe I have.

Mr. BALL. Commission Exhibit No. 162, which can be described for the
record as a gray jacket with zipper, have you seen Lee Oswald wear this
jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I haven't.

Mr. BALL. I have here Commission 150, which is described as sort of a
rust brown shirt. Have you ever seen Lee Oswald wear this shirt? It has
a hole in the sleeve near the elbow.

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't believe I have because most time I
noticed when Lee had it, I say he put off his shirt and just wear a
T-shirt the biggest part of the time so really what shirt he wore that
day I really didn't see it or didn't pay enough attention to it whether
he did have a shirt on.

Mr. BALL. On that day you did notice one article of clothing, that is,
he had a jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What color was the jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was a gray, more or less flannel, wool-looking type of
jacket that I had seen him wear and that is the type of jacket he had
on that morning.

Mr. BALL. Did it have a zipper on it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was one of the zipper types.

Mr. BALL. It isn't one of these two zipper jackets we have shown?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what kind of trousers he had on, what color?

Mr. FRAZIER. Not that day, I don't remember.

Mr. BALL. You wouldn't remember that day?

Mr. FRAZIER. I had seen him wear some gray ones before.

Mr. BALL. Here is Commission's Exhibit No. 157 which are gray trousers.
Had you ever seen him wear these?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; to be frank with you, I had seen something more or
less of that order, that type of material, but so far as that, being
sure that, was his pants or some of his clothes, I couldn't be sure.

Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 156 which is a pair of gray trousers.
Did you ever see him wear trousers of that type?

Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I know of.

Mr. BALL. You are not able to tell us then anything or are you able to
tell us, describe any of the clothing he had on that day, except this
gray jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is the only thing you can remember?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. I have here a paper sack which is Commission's Exhibit 364.

That gray jacket you mentioned, did it have any design in it?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was it light or dark gray?

Mr. FRAZIER. It was light gray.

Mr. BALL. You mentioned it was woolen.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Long sleeves?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Buttoned sleeves at the wrist, or do you remember?

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, I didn't notice that much about the
jacket, but I had seen him wear that gray woolen jacket before.

Mr. BALL. You say it had a zipper on it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now we have over here this exhibit for identification which
is 364 which is a paper sack made out of tape, sort of a home made
affair. Will you take a look at this. Does this appear to be anything
like the color of the sack you saw on the back seat?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I would say it was, it was more a color like
this.

Mr. BALL. It was more like this color, correct?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Did it have tape on it or did you notice it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, like I say, I didn't notice that much about it as I
didn't see it very much.

Mr. BALL. Will you take a look at it as to the length. Does it appear
to be about the same length?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. We will just use this. Was one end of the sack turned over,
folded over? Do you remember that?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know, like I was saying, when I glanced at it,
but I say from what I saw I didn't see very much of it, I say the bag
wasn't open or anything like it where you can see the contents. If you
was going to say putting--to more or less a person putting in carefully
he would throw it in carefully, you put it more toward the back. If he
had anything folded up in it I didn't see that.

Mr. BALL. When you saw him get out of the car, when you first saw him
when he was out of the car before he started to walk, you noticed he
had the package under the arm?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. One end of it was under the armpit and the other he had to
hold it in his right hand. Did the package extend beyond the right hand?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. Like I say if you put it under your armpits and
put it down normal to the side.

Mr. BALL. But the right hand on, was it on the end or the side of the
package?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; he had it cupped in his hand.

Mr. BALL. Cupped in his hand?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Take a look at this paper bag which is Commission Exhibit 364
for identification, with reference to the width.

Was the bag about that width or a different width?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well. I would say it appears to me it would be pretty
close but it might be just a little bit too wide. I think it is,
because you know yourself you would have to have a big hand with that
size but like I say he had this cupped in his hand because I remember
glancing at him when he was a walking up ahead of me.

Mr. BALL. This is another bag here which has been marked Commission's
Exhibit 142. But I don't see the stamp on it. This is FBI No. 10. This
was shown to you before, wasn't it, in Dallas?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. BALL. You were asked if you had seen this before, weren't you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I was.

Mr. BALL. When you first saw it, you felt that the bag you saw was of a
different color, didn't you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right, and I say they told me this one had been treated in
the lab.

Mr. BALL. If you will note there is a part of this bag which has not
been treated.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. So I will show you this part of this exhibit that hasn't been
treated, and tell me whether or not the paper, the color of the paper
that has not been treated, is or is not similar to the color of the
paper on the bag you saw on the back seat of your car that morning.

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Mr. FRAZIER. To be frank with you, more like I say the color, the color
I saw would be more like it but I imagine if this hadn't been run
through that process that this color here that you unwrapped would be
more closer to this. This seems to have a little bit different color to
me.

Mr. BALL. I didn't get the answer because of the--let's refer to this
bag, that is the colored bag.

Mr. FRAZIER. Okay, sir.

Mr. BALL. And the bag that is not colored, and the other is just a bag.

Mr. FRAZIER. Okay, sir.

Mr. BALL. We are talking about the colored bag, the one that has
changed its color. There is a part of the colored bag that hasn't
changed color, isn't it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is the part I want to call your attention to.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. The color of this bag, the colored bag, has not been treated.
Take a look at it. Is that similar to the color of the bag you saw in
the back seat of your car that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. It would be, surely it could have been, and it couldn't
have been. Like I say, see, you know this color, either one of these
colors, is very similar to the type of paper that you can get out of a
store or anything like that, and so I say it could have been and then
it couldn't have been.

Mr. BALL. Do you mean by that that it is similar to the color?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. And do you have a definite memory of the color of the bag you
saw on the back seat of your car so that you can distinguish between
one color and another?

Mr. FRAZIER. I believe it would be more on this basis here.

Mr. BALL. You say it would be more on the color of bag No. 364, is that
right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. You will notice that this bag which is the colored bag, FBI
Exhibit No. 10, is folded over. Was it folded over when you saw it the
first time, folded over to the end?

Mr. FRAZIER. I will say I am not sure about that, whether it was folded
over or not, because, like I say, I didn't pay that much attention to
it.

Mr. BALL. This is Commission Exhibit No. 142.

The CHAIRMAN. That is the dark bag?

Mr. BALL. The dark bag is Commission Exhibit No. 142.

When you were shown this bag, do you recall whether or not you told the
officers who showed you the bag--did you tell them whether you thought
it was or was not about the same length as the bag you saw on the back
seat?

Mr. FRAZIER. I told them that as far as the length there, I told them
that was entirely too long.

Mr. BALL. What about the width?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, like I say now, now I couldn't see much of
the bag from him walking in front of me. Now he could have had some
of it sticking out in front of his hands because I didn't see it from
the front. The only time I did see it was from the back, just a little
strip running down from your arm and so therefore, like that, I say, I
know that the bag wouldn't be that long.

So far as being that wide like I say I couldn't be sure.

Mr. BALL. It could have been that wide?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Now, you said that some of the bag might have been beyond his
hands, did you say?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I said it could have, now I am not saying it was.

Mr. BALL. In other words, it could have been longer than his hands?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. It has been suggested that you take this bag, which is the
colored bag, Commission Exhibit No. 142, and put it under your arm just
as a sample, or just to show about how he carried the bag.

Mr. FRAZIER. Okay.

Mr. BALL. Put it under your armpit.

Mr. FRAZIER. Like that, normally your hand would come down like that
and you would say, you would have an item, like you have seen people
carry items like they would be walking along and your arm would come
down like that, just like----

Mr. BALL. But are you sure that his hand was at the end of the package
or at the side of the package?

Mr. FRAZIER. Like I said, I remember I didn't look at the package very
much, paying much attention, but when I did look at it he did have his
hands on the package like that.

Mr. BALL. But you said a moment ago you weren't sure whether the
package was longer or shorter.

Mr. FRAZIER. And his hands because I couldn't see that about the
package.

Mr. BALL. By that, do you mean that you don't know whether the package
extended beyond his hands?

Mr. FRAZIER. This way?

Mr. BALL. No; lengthwise, toward his feet.

Mr. FRAZIER. No; now I don't mean that.

Mr. BALL. What do you mean?

Mr. FRAZIER. What I was talking about, I said I didn't know where it
extended. It could have or couldn't have, out this way, widthwise not
lengthwise.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you say it could have been wider than your
original estimate?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. But you don't think it was longer than his hands?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. How tall are you?

Mr. FRAZIER. I am 6-foot, a little bit over 6-foot.

Mr. BALL. Do you know what your arm length is?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't.

Mr. BALL. We can probably measure it before you leave.

Did you ever see Lee taking home anything with him from the Texas Book
Depository Building?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; never did.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him taking a package home with him?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. When was the last time you can remember you saw Lee?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean on the 22d?

Mr. BALL. On the 22d, that day.

Mr. FRAZIER. Somewhere between it was after 10 and somewhere before
noon, because I remember I was walking down to the first floor that
day, that was the only time I went up on the elevator was, like I say,
for a few minutes and, I put that box of books up and put it down, and
I was on the first floor putting up books all day and I seen him back
and forth and he would be walking and getting books and put on the
order.

Mr. BALL. That was the last time you saw him all day?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. You didn't talk to him again?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you wear a coat or jacket to work that morning?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. It was chilly, was it?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; it was.

Mr. BALL. When you stood out on the front looking at the parade, where
was Shelley standing and where was Lovelady standing with reference to
you?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, see, I was standing, like I say, one step down from
the top, and Mr. Shelley was standing, you know, back from the top step
and over toward the side of the wall there. See, he was standing right
over there, and then Billy was a couple of steps down from me over
toward more the wall also.

Mr. BALL. Usually when Lee walked in the Building in the morning, when
you came to work with him where did he go, do you know?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. He just walked in, say, like inside the Building,
and like I say I always went and put my lunch up and hang my jacket or
coat up, whichever I wore, and he was usually around there on the first
floor there after some of them put their lunch in the refrigerator, so
far as that I never paid too much attention to what he usually did.

Mr. BALL. You usually walked in together?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is right, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you separated after you got in there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; after we got into the interior I just went and put my
lunch up.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice where Lee kept his lunch?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him come into the Building on other days
than the days that he rode with you?

Mr. FRAZIER. You mean did I ever see him come in the Building when he
rode with me?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; because when he rode with me we always walked
together.

Mr. BALL. No; other than when he rode with you.

Mr. FRAZIER. Oh, other than when he rode with me. No, sir; I didn't.

The CHAIRMAN. Did he have any particular associates around there that
you knew of?

Mr. FRAZIER. Not that I knew of. I say he didn't mingle with other guys
like the rest of us. The rest of us usually joked back and forth with
practically everybody who worked around there. But he usually kept to
himself, that was the only time he talked to anybody was when he wanted
to know something about a book or something like that.

Mr. BALL. We have got a picture taken the day of the parade and it
shows the President's car going by.

Now, take a look at that picture. Can you see your picture any place
there?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; I don't, because I was back up in this more or
less black area here.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Mr. FRAZIER. Because Billy, like I say, is two or three steps down in
front of me.

Mr. BALL. Do you recognize this fellow?

Mr. FRAZIER. That is Billy, that is Billy Lovelady.

Mr. BALL. Billy?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Let's take a marker and make an arrow down that way. That
mark is Billy Lovelady?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. That is where you told us you were standing a moment ago.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. In front of you to the right over to the wall?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Is this a Commission exhibit?

We will make this a Commission Exhibit No. 369.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 369 for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. That is written in. The arrow marks Billy Lovelady on
Commission's Exhibit No. 369.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you have any lockers there in which you put your
clothes, and so forth?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; we don't.

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. FRAZIER. Some boys hang their jackets up in there in that little
domino room where they were going to play dominoes. But here lately,
I have been wondering, you know, most of us wear our jackets, what we
have on, because if you are going out there on a dock in the cold air
we usually keep them on.

The CHAIRMAN. I see.

Mr. BALL. On Thursday afternoon when you went home, drove on home, did
he carry any package with him?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir; he didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did he have a jacket or coat on him?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a jacket or coat did he have?

Mr. FRAZIER. That, you know, like I say gray jacket.

Mr. BALL. That same gray jacket?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. Now, I can be frank with you, I had seen him
wear that jacket several times, because it is cool type like when you
keep a jacket on all day, if you are working on outside or something
like that, you wouldn't go outside with just a plain shirt on.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator, have you any questions you would like to ask?

I think that is all.

Does anybody else have any questions to ask? Do you have any questions?

Mr. BALL. Mr. Frazier, we have here this Exhibit No. 364 which is a
sack and in that we have put a dismantled gun. Don't pay any attention
to that. Will you stand up here and put this under your arm and then
take hold of it at the side?

Now, is that anywhere near similar to the way that Oswald carried the
package?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, you know, like I said now, I said I didn't pay much
attention----

Mr. BALL. Turn around.

Mr. FRAZIER. I didn't pay much attention, but when I did, I say, he had
this part down here, like the bottom would be short he had cupped in
his hand like that and, say, like walking from the back if you had a
big arm jacket there you wouldn't tell much from a package back there,
the physical features. If you could see it from the front like when you
walk and meet somebody you could tell about the package, but walking
from behind you couldn't tell much about the package whatsoever about
the width. But he didn't carry it from the back. If this package were
shorter he would have it cupped in his hands.

The CHAIRMAN. Could he have had the top of it behind his shoulder, or
are you sure it was cupped under his shoulder there?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; because the way it looked, you know, like I say, he
had it cupped in his hand.

The CHAIRMAN. I beg your pardon?

Mr. FRAZIER. I said from where I noticed he had it cupped in his hands.
And I don't see how you could have it anywhere other than under your
armpit because if you had it cupped in your hand it would stick over it.

Mr. BALL. Could he have carried it this way?

Mr. FRAZIER. No, sir. Never in front here. Like that. Now, that is what
I was talking to you about. No, I say he couldn't because if he had you
would have seen the package sticking up like that.

From what I seen walking behind he had it under his arm and you
couldn't tell that he had a package from the back.

Mr. BALL. When you cupped the bottom of your package in the hands, will
you stand up, again, please, and the upper part of the package is not
under the armpit, the top of the package extends almost up to the level
of your ear.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Or your eye level, and when you put the package under your
armpit, the upper part of the package, and take a hold of the side of
it with your right hand, it extends on approximately about 8 inches,
about the span of my hand, more than 8 inches, 8, 10 inches.

Mr. FRAZIER. If you were using a yardstick or one of these little----

Mr. BALL. I was using my hand.

Mr. FRAZIER. I know you were, but there are some different means to
measure it. I will say it varies, if you use a yardstick. You can go
and measure something with a tape measure, with a yardstick and come
up with a different measurement altogether, maybe a quarter of an inch
shorter or longer.

Mr. BALL. I was asked, there was some uncertainty in your testimony as
to the direction from which you heard the shots fired. Let's see if we
can illustrate it.

You heard the shots fired and you expressed an opinion that it came
from a certain direction. I would like to clear that up, if I could, on
this map.

Here is the Texas School Book Depository Building, and you were
standing right here, you said, weren't you? Can you tell me?

Mr. FRAZIER. You know the entrance there is not quite at that corner.

Mr. BALL. That close.

Now, you say you heard these three sounds which you later thought were
probably shots, you thought it came from a certain direction.

Can you tell us from what direction as illustrated on the map?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. Now I say, you know where it is the straight curve
that goes under the underpass.

Mr. BALL. That is the parkway?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. I say it runs over this parkway, you don't have it
on here--anyway, I say these railroad tracks there is a series of them
that come up over this, up over this overpass there, and from where I
was standing, I say, it is my true opinion, that is what I thought, it
sounded like it came from over there, in the railroad tracks.

Mr. BALL. That would be east and south?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; that would be west and south.

Mr. BALL. West and south?

Mr. FRAZIER. No; it would be north.

Mr. BALL. No; it wouldn't be north.

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes; it wouldn't be south because that is in that
direction.

Mr. BALL. This is north, and you say it, I believe, it came from north?

Mr. FRAZIER. It would be more or less west and north were these tracks
from this overpass.

Mr. BALL. Your direction was west and north as the source of the sound.

Well, take a look at the map that does show the overpass and you will
put a mark on that.

Did any other people who were standing there with you express any
opinion as to where they thought the sounds came from?

Mr. FRAZIER. Well, I say, after we found out it was shots I see some of
the other people around there said when they were staying there, said
that is what it was, downward right back from us, like where we were
standing. If we had been standing somewhere else you might have gotten
a different opinion, but from where we were standing on the steps there
it sounded like back down to the right.

Mr. BALL. Here is a Commission Exhibit, No. 347. It is an aerial
photograph, and it shows the Texas School Book Depository Building.

Mr. FRAZIER. Here is the Depository Building here.

Mr. BALL. That is right, sir. Here is the parkway.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. Here are the overpasses here.

Can you show us on that map where you think--will that map--can you
on that map indicate the general direction from which you thought the
sounds came from?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir; because we were standing right here.

Mr. BALL. Don't mark it up right now.

Mr. FRAZIER. Right. But what I am trying to say is we were standing
down there, and back over here, this over here is more or less a
knoll, and you can look over there and see this. You see this furthest
left line that curved around here is the ones we take to come out on
Stemmons Expressway, and this is a high knoll up here which runs where
the tracks are, from standing there it sounded like it came from this
general area over here.

Mr. BALL. Just mark on that if you can, if you can mark a source.

Mr. FRAZIER. This is where it is.

Mr. BALL. Mark a circle.

Mr. FRAZIER. I would say just like over in here.

Mr. BALL. Let's make it a little heavier. In that general direction?

Mr. FRAZIER. Yes, sir. That was just part of the knoll.

Mr. BALL. The circle marked on No. 347, we will identify it with an
"F," the circle marked "F" represents the direction, general direction,
of a source of sound as you--as occurred to you as you stood on the
front steps of the Texas Book Depository Building, is that right?

Mr. FRAZIER. Right.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Anything from you, Senator?

Well, that will be all. Thank you very much for coming and testifying
before the Commission.

Mr. FRAZIER. Thank you, Mr. Warren.

The CHAIRMAN. All right, bring in the next witness.

The Commission will be in order.

Mrs. Randle, I will just read you a brief statement of the purpose of
our meeting today.

The purpose of today's hearing is to hear the testimony of Buell Wesley
Frazier and Linnie Mae Randle. The Commission has been advised that
these two witnesses have stated that they saw Lee Harvey Oswald on the
morning of November 22, 1963. The Commission proposes to ask these
witnesses questions concerning their knowledge of the assassination of
President Kennedy.

You have a copy of that, do you not?

Very well, Mr. Ball will conduct the examination.

Will you rise and be sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Please be seated.

Mr. Ball?


TESTIMONY OF LINNIE MAE RANDLE

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Randle, where do you live?

Mrs. RANDLE. 2438 Westfield, Irving, Tex.

Mr. BALL. And you live there with your husband and three daughters, do
you?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And your brother?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Wesley?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long has Wesley been living there?

Mrs. RANDLE. Since September, somewhere around the first, I am not sure
just the date.

Mr. BALL. Do you know Mrs. Ruth Paine?

Mrs. RANDLE. She is a neighbor that lives up the street from me.

Mr. BALL. When did you first meet Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, for a period, I am not sure of this, it is quite 2
years, I lived across the street from her. I didn't visit with her, but
I visited with her neighbor who lives next door.

Mr. BALL. What is her name?

Mrs. RANDLE. Mrs. Dorothy Roberts.

Mr. BALL. That is on Fifth Street in Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. RANDLE. That is right; yes.

Mr. BALL. That was before you moved down the street to the corner of
Westfield and Fifth Street?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You had never visited in Mrs. Paine's home?

Mrs. RANDLE. I was in her home on one occasion that I remember at a
birthday party for one of her children and she invited mine.

Mr. BALL. How long ago?

Mrs. RANDLE. It has been about a year ago.

Mr. BALL. That is the only time you have visited Mrs. Paine?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever meet Marina Oswald?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. BALL. When did you meet her?

Mrs. RANDLE. The first time I met her was over at this Mrs. Roberts.
I had gone up there to see Mrs. Roberts and her, Mrs. Oswald and Mrs.
Paine was over there drinking coffee, that was the first time I met her.

Mr. BALL. When was that?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I believe it was the first week in October.

Mr. BALL. That is the first time you had ever met Mrs. Oswald?

Mrs. RANDLE. Officially met her. I had seen her out in the yard and
through the neighbor I knew who she was. I hadn't met her until that
time.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see her again to talk to her, Marina Oswald?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, she couldn't speak English, "How are you" and things
like that was about all she could say and I did visit with Mrs. Roberts
quite often and so she would be out in the yard and she would speak.

Mr. BALL. In whose yards, Mrs. Roberts' yard or Mrs. Paine's?

Mrs. RANDLE. Mrs. Paine's. She played with her children, and kept the
yard and things like that.

Mr. BALL. But on this one occasion she was in the house, Mrs. Roberts'
house?

Mrs. RANDLE. Mrs. Roberts.

Mr. BALL. With Mrs. Paine, Mrs. Roberts and yourself?

Mrs. RANDLE. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Was there some conversation at that time about her husband
Lee Oswald?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, they had--it was just general knowledge in the
neighborhood that he didn't have a job and she was expecting a baby. Of
course, I didn't know where he was or anything. And of course you know
just being neighborly and everything, we felt sorry for Marina because
her baby was due right away as we understood it, and he didn't have any
work, so they said, so it was just----

Mr. BALL. Mrs. Paine told you that Lee didn't have any work?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I suppose. It was just in conversation.

Mr. BALL. Marina didn't take part in the conversation?

Mrs. RANDLE. No. She couldn't. So far as I know, she couldn't speak.

Mr. BALL. You and Mrs. Roberts and Mrs. Paine talked about it?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was there anything said then about the Texas School Book
Depository as a place he might get a job?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, we didn't say that he might get a job, because
I didn't know there was a job open. The reason that we were being
helpful, Wesley had just looked for a job, and I had helped him to try
to find one. We listed several places that he might go to look for
work. When you live in a place you know some places that someone with,
you know, not very much of an education can find work.

So, it was among one of the places that we mentioned. We mentioned
several others, and Mrs. Paine said that well, he couldn't apply for
any of the jobs that would require driving because he couldn't drive,
and it was just in conversation that you might talk just any day and
not think a thing on earth about it. In fact, I didn't even know that
he had even tried any place that we mentioned.

Mr. BALL. What were some of the other places mentioned?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I remember two of them. Mrs. Roberts entered into
the conversation and, of course, she is more familiar with the place
than I am. It was Manor Bakeries which was a home delivery service.

Then there was this Texas Gypsum which makes sheet rock and things like
that, and we mentioned because Wesley had tried those places that I
mentioned those.

Mr. BALL. And then you also mentioned the Texas Book Depository?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I didn't know there was a job opening over there.

Mr. BALL. But did you mention it?

Mrs. RANDLE. But we said he might try over there. There might be
work over there because it was the busy season but I didn't have any
previous knowledge that there was any job opening.

Mr. BALL. Did you later learn that Lee had applied for a job?

Mrs. RANDLE. She told me, Mrs. Paine told me, later that he had applied
for the job, and had gotten the job and she thanked us for naming the
places and things like that.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell your brother that a fellow named Lee Oswald was
going to work for them?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir; I didn't even know his name. She said Lee so I
just assumed that was his last name and I just merely mentioned to
Wesley that he had got the job or a job over there.

Mr. BALL. That Lee had the job?

Mrs. RANDLE. That Mrs. Paine said that, I had told Wesley that he
might--that she said he was going to call over there.

In fact, Mrs. Paine asked me if I would call and see if there was a
job available and I told her, no, that I didn't know anybody over
there, and if she wanted to call over the place she would have to do it
because I didn't know if there was any job openings over there.

Mr. BALL. You told Wesley, though, that you had--Mrs. Paine had told
you that Lee had applied for a job and gotten a job there?

Mrs. RANDLE. Sir, I don't remember if I mentioned it to him or not.

Mr. BALL. When you said a moment ago that you had mentioned something
to Wesley?

Mrs. RANDLE. I might have had. But I can't say for sure I did because
at the time it was unimportant to me. It didn't really matter.

Mr. BALL. In other words, you are not sure whether you did or didn't?

Mrs. RANDLE. That is right. I might have, I don't know maybe for sure
if I did.

Mr. BALL. Did Lee tell you at sometime that he had started to drive?

Mrs. RANDLE. I never talked to Lee.

Mr. BALL. Did Wesley tell you that he was driving Lee home weekends or
driving him to Irving weekends?

Mrs. RANDLE. Wesley had told me that he asked to ride out on weekends.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever see him arrive with Lee?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you recall on a Thursday night, November 21 that you saw
Lee get out of Wesley's car?

Mrs. RANDLE. That is right.

Mr. BALL. About what time of night was it?

Mrs. RANDLE. About 5:20, I believe, 5:15 or 5:25 something like that.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him?

Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the grocery store.

Mr. BALL. Did you talk to Wesley about the fact that he had brought Lee
home on this night?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you think it was unusual that he had come home that night?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I knew that he had--Friday is the only time he had
ever ridden with him before which was a couple of times, I don't think
he rode with him over three times, I am not sure but I never did know
of him arriving, you know, except on Friday.

Mr. BALL. Well, did you mention to Wesley that night or did you ask
Wesley that night how Lee happened to come home on Thursday?

Mrs. RANDLE. I might have asked him.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember anything about curtain rods?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What do you remember about that?

Mrs. RANDLE. He had told Wesley----

Mr. BALL. Tell me what Wesley told you.

Mrs. RANDLE. What Wesley told me. That Lee had rode home with him to
get some curtain rods from Mrs. Paine to fix up his apartment.

Mr. BALL. When did Wesley tell you that?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, that afternoon I suppose I would have had to ask
him, he wouldn't have just told me.

Mr. BALL. You mean that night?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. After he came home?

Mrs. RANDLE. I was on my way to the store. So I probably asked him when
I got back what he was doing riding home with him on Thursday afternoon.

Mr. BALL. You think that was the time that Wesley told you----

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; after I got back home.

Mr. BALL. That Lee had come home to get some curtain rods?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, I am sure he told me that.

Mr. BALL. The next morning did you get breakfast for Wesley, you, and
your mother?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes; mother and my children.

Mr. BALL. And you were packing his lunch, too, were you?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see Lee?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, I did.

Mr. BALL. Where did you see him?

Mrs. RANDLE. I saw him as he crossed the street and come across my
driveway to where Wesley had his car parked by the carport.

Mr. BALL. What street did he cross to go over?

Mrs. RANDLE. He crossed Westbrook.

Mr. BALL. And you saw him walking along, did you?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was he carrying any package?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes; he was.

Mr. BALL. What was he carrying?

Mrs. RANDLE. He was carrying a package in a sort of a heavy brown bag,
heavier than a grocery bag it looked to me. It was about, if I might
measure, about this long, I suppose, and he carried it in his right
hand, had the top sort of folded down and had a grip like this, and the
bottom, he carried it this way, you know, and it almost touched the
ground as he carried it.

Mr. BALL. Let me see. He carried it in his right hand, did he?

Mrs. RANDLE. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And where was his hand gripping the middle of the package?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir; the top with just a little bit sticking up. You
know just like you grab something like that.

Mr. BALL. And he was grabbing it with his right hand at the top of the
package and the package almost touched the ground?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. He walked over to your house, did he?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, I saw him as he started crossing the street. Where
he come from then I couldn't say.

Mr. BALL. You don't know where he went from that?

Mrs. RANDLE. Where he went?

Mr. BALL. Did you see him go to the car?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What did he do?

Mrs. RANDLE. He opened the right back door and I just saw that he was
laying the package down so I closed the door. I didn't recognize him
as he walked across my carport and I at that moment I wondered who was
fixing to come to my back door so I opened the door slightly and saw
that it--I assumed he was getting in the car but he didn't, so he come
back and stood on the driveway.

Mr. BALL. He put the package in the car.

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; I don't know if he put it on the seat or on the
floor but I just know he put it in the back.

Mr. BALL. We have got a package here which is marked Commission Exhibit
No. 364. You have seen this before, I guess, haven't you, I think the
FBI showed it to you?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was the color of that package in any way similar to the color
of this package which is 364?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Similar kind of paper, wasn't it?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, was the length of it any similar, anywhere near similar?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well, it wasn't that long, I mean it was folded down at
the top as I told you. It definitely wasn't that long.

Mr. BALL. How about the width?

Mrs. RANDLE. The width is about right.

Mr. BALL. The width is about right.

Can you stand up here and show us how he was carrying it. Using this
package as an example only?

Mrs. RANDLE. What he had in there, it looked too long.

Mr. BALL. This looks too long?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. About how long would you think the package would be, just
measure it right on there.

Mrs. RANDLE. I would say about like this.

Mr. BALL. You mean from here to here?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; with that folded down with this much for him to
grip in his hand.

Mr. BALL. This package is about the span of my hand, say 8 inches, is
that right? He would have about this much to grip?

Mrs. RANDLE. What I remember seeing is about this long, sir, as I told
you it was folded down so it could have been this long.

Mr. BALL. I see. You figure about 2 feet long, is that right?

Mrs. RANDLE. A little bit more.

Mr. BALL. A little more than 2 feet.

There is another package here. You remember this was shown you. It is a
discolored bag, which is Exhibit No. 142, and remember you were asked
by the Federal Bureau of Investigation agents if this looked like the
package; do you remember?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, first of all with color, you told them the bag was not
the color?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. But they showed you a part of the bag that had not been
discolored, didn't they?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Looking at this part of the bag which has not been discolored
does that appear similar to the color of the bag you saw Lee carrying
that morning?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes; it is a heavy type of wrapping paper.

Mr. BALL. Now, with reference to the width of this bag, does that look
about the width of the bag that he was carrying?

Mrs. RANDLE. I would say so; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What about length?

Mrs. RANDLE. You mean the entire bag?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mrs. RANDLE. There again you have the problem of all this down here. It
was folded down, of course, if you would take it from the bottom----

Mr. BALL. Fold it to about the size that you think it might be.

Mrs. RANDLE. This is the bottom here, right. This is the bottom, this
part down here.

Mr. BALL. I believe so, but I am not sure. But let's say it is.

Mrs. RANDLE. And this goes this way, right? Do you want me to hold it?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mrs. RANDLE. About this.

Mr. BALL. Is that about right? That is 28-1/2 inches.

Mrs. RANDLE. I measured 27 last time.

Mr. BALL. You measured 27 once before?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. How was Lee dressed that morning?

Mrs. RANDLE. He had on a white T-shirt, I just saw him from the waist
up, I didn't pay any attention to his pants or anything, when he was
going with the package. I was more interested in that. But he had on a
white T-shirt and I remember some sort of brown or tan shirt and he had
a gray jacket, I believe.

Mr. BALL. A gray jacket. I will show you some clothing here. First, I
will show you a gray jacket. Does this look anything like the jacket he
had on?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That morning?

Mrs. RANDLE. Similar to that. I didn't pay an awful lot of attention to
it.

Mr. BALL. Was it similar in color?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; I think so. It had big sleeves.

Mr. BALL. Take a look at these sleeves. Was it similar in color?

Mrs. RANDLE. I believe so.

Mr. BALL. What is the Commission Exhibit on this jacket?

Mrs. RANDLE. It was gray, I am not sure of the shade.

Mr. BALL. 163.

I will show you another shirt which is Commission No. 150.

Does this look anything like the shirt he had on?

Mrs. RANDLE. Well now, I don't remember it being that shade of brown.
It could have been but I was looking through the screen and out the
window but I don't remember it being exactly that. I thought it was a
solid color.

Mr. BALL. Here is another jacket which is a gray jacket, does this look
anything like the jacket he had on?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir; I remember its being gray.

Mr. BALL. Well, this one is gray but of these two the jacket I last
showed you is Commission Exhibit No. 162, and this blue gray is 163,
now if you had to choose between these two?

Mrs. RANDLE. I would choose the dark one.

Mr. BALL. You would choose the dark one?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Which is 163, as being more similar to the jacket he had?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir; that I remember. But I, you know, didn't pay an
awful lot of attention to his jacket. I remember his T-shirt and the
shirt more so than I do the jacket.

Mr. BALL. The witness just stated that 163 which is the gray-blue is
similar to the jacket he had on. 162, the light gray jacket was not.

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

The CHAIRMAN.. Senator, have you any questions?

Senator COOPER. No questions.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you any questions, Mr. Powell?

Mr. POWELL. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. I think I do have one.

Prior to the assassination of President Kennedy, did any FBI agents or
police officer ever visit your house?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. And said anything to you about Lee Oswald?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Could I ask, Mr. Chief Justice, along the line Senator
Cooper touched on--whether there had been any conversation in the
neighborhood prior to the assassination of any FBI agents or police
officers having visited in the neighborhood?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You heard nothing along rumors of that kind?

Mrs. RANDLE. No. Later, after all this was over, I had heard that they
had been to Mrs. Paine's residence.

Mr. JENNER. But there was no excitement in the neighborhood up to that
point?

Mrs. RANDLE. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. I have one question, Mr. Chief Justice.

You used an expression there, that the bag appeared heavy.

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You meant that there was some weight appeared to be----

Mrs. RANDLE. To the bottom.

Mr. BALL. To the bottom?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes. It tapered like this as he hugged it in his hand. It
was more bulky toward the bottom than it was this way.

Mr. BELIN. Toward the top? More bulky toward the bottom than toward the
top?

Mrs. RANDLE. That is right.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Senator COOPER. On that point--did you see Lee Oswald place the package
in the automobile?

Mrs. RANDLE. In the automobile. I do not know if he put it on the seat
or on the floor.

Senator COOPER. I mean did you see him throw open the door?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. When he placed the package in there do you remember
whether he used one hand or two?

Mrs. RANDLE. No; because I only opened the door briefly and what made
me establish the door on Wesley's car, it is an old car and that door,
the window is broken and everything and it is hard to close, so that
cinched in my mind which door it was, too. But it was only briefly that
I looked.

Mr. JENNER. Mr. Chief Justice, could I ask--how far away were you? You
were at the kitchen door and the automobile was in the driveway, what
was the distance between yourself and Mr. Oswald?

Mrs. RANDLE. Sir, I don't know. The carport will take care of two cars,
and then Wesley's car was on the other side of the carport so that
would be three car lengths plus inbetween space.

Mr. JENNER. Car widths?

Mrs. RANDLE. Car widths, excuse me.

Mr. JENNER. Was it a light day?

Mrs. RANDLE. It was sort of cloudy, but there wasn't any--I mean it
wasn't dark or anything like that.

Mr. JENNER. Would you be good enough as you can recall--can you recall
what the fabric of the jacket was that Mr. Oswald had on this morning,
was it twill or wool or gabardine? Cotton?

Mrs. RANDLE. Probably cotton or gabardine, something like that that
would repel water probably, and that is just my own opinion.

Mr. JENNER. That is your present recollection?

Mrs. RANDLE. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you.

The CHAIRMAN. Mrs. Randle, thank you very much for coming, you may be
excused.


TESTIMONY OF CORTLANDT CUNNINGHAM

Mr. BALL. Will you state your name for the record?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Cortlandt Cunningham.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Cunningham, will you raise your right hand and be
sworn, please?

Do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this Commission will
be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you
God?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I do.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Cunningham, be seated there.

What is your business?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am a special agent of the FBI.

Mr. BALL. What is your specialty with the FBI?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I am assigned to the FBI laboratory in the Firearms
Identification Unit.

Mr. BALL. There is a rifle here that has been identified as Commission
Exhibit No. 139, it has been in your custody, hasn't it?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. It has.

Mr. BALL. You brought it over here this morning?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did.

Mr. BALL. And I requested you disassemble it?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I did.

Mr. BALL. Let's take it out of the sack and put it before the
Commission.

Do you need any special tools to assemble this rifle?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. I notice you have a screwdriver there. Can you assemble it
without the use of a screwdriver?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What can you use?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Any object that would fit the slots on the five screws
that retain the stock to the action.

Mr. BALL. Could you do it with a 10-cent piece?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Will you do that--about how long will it take you?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I know I can do it, but I have never been timed as far
as using a dime. I have been timed using a screwdriver, which required
a little over 2 minutes.

Mr. BALL. 2 minutes with a screwdriver.

Try it with the dime and let's see how long it takes.

Okay. Start now. Six minutes.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. I think I can improve on that.

Mr. BALL. And the only tool you used was a 10-cent piece?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. That is all.

Senator COOPER. Does the bolt work all right now?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Once in a while with regard to the top portion--namely
the retaining screw and the top stock--you have trouble getting them
engaged on this particular model.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. That is the case on this weapon. On that one over
there, however, it slid right on when I put it together a little while
ago; it was much faster.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes. This is a weapon identical to the one that has been
identified as the assassination weapon?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. This is the assassination weapon.

Mr. BALL. This is the weapon found on the sixth floor of the Texas Book
Depository.

The CHAIRMAN. May I ask, have you fired it?

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Many times.

The CHAIRMAN. That has been fired many times?

Mr. BELIN. You can disassemble it in a lesser amount of time, I assume.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Definitely, it comes apart much faster. I can do it for
you.

The CHAIRMAN. I understand with a screwdriver you put the rifle
together in 2 minutes.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Yes, sir; a few seconds over 2 minutes, somewhere
around 2-1/4, 2-1/2 minutes, readily.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. And I am sure I can assemble it faster the second time
with a dime than I did the last time but I did have trouble with that
one retaining screw.

The CHAIRMAN. Is there anything more you have on this?

Mr. BALL. No.

The CHAIRMAN. Anybody?

Well, Agent Cunningham, thank you very much, sir.

Mr. CUNNINGHAM. Thank you, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Gentlemen, if there are no further witnesses today,
we will adjourn for the day, and we will meet tomorrow morning at 9
o'clock for the purpose of taking further testimony.

(Whereupon, at 12:45 p.m., the President's Commission recessed.)



_Thursday, March 12, 1964_

TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM WAYNE WHALEY AND CECIL J. McWATTERS

The President's Commission met at 9:20 a.m. on March 12, 1964, 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C.

Present were Chief Justice Earl Warren, Chairman; Senator John Cooper
and Representative Gerald R. Ford, members.

Also present were J. Lee Rankin, general counsel; Joseph A. Ball,
assistant counsel; David W. Belin, assistant counsel; Melvin Aron
Eisenberg, assistant counsel; Lewis F. Powell, Jr. and Charles Murray,
observers.


TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM WAYNE WHALEY

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Whaley, the purpose of our meeting today is to
take some further testimony concerning the events surrounding the
assassination of President Kennedy, and we understand you have some
facts that will bear on it in a way and we would like to ask you
questions concerning it.

Will you rise, please, raise your right hand to be sworn?

Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing
but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WHALEY. I do, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Will you be seated, please? Mr. Ball will conduct the
examination.

Mr. BALL. Mr. Whaley, what is your business?

Mr. WHALEY. I am a taxi driver, sir.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been a taxi driver?

Mr. WHALEY. 37 years.

Mr. BALL. You worked all that time in Dallas?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is your residence?

Mr. WHALEY. 619 Pine Street, Route 2, Louisville, Tex., 26 miles north
of Dallas.

Mr. BALL. But you drive a taxicab in Dallas?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Whom do you work for?

Mr. WHALEY. City Transportation Company.

Mr. BALL. You are an employee of theirs, are you?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You don't own your own cab?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; they don't allow that in that city.

Mr. BALL. How long have you worked for that company?

Mr. WHALEY. 37 years. Not for that company, sir, but for the original
owners, it started out. I have been in with that original company but
all banded together in one cab company.

Mr. BALL. Were you on duty on the 22nd of November 1963?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What were your hours that day at work?

Mr. WHALEY. Well, my hours run from 6 to 4, sir; 6 in the morning to 4
in the afternoon.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a cab were you driving on that day?

Mr. WHALEY. A 1961 Checker.

Mr. BALL. Was it equipped with radio equipment?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You can call in to your dispatcher?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I can.

Mr. BALL. By a two-way radio?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you operate on cab stands or do you cruise?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; you just go out in the morning and wherever they
send you you go to work and wherever you unload you check in they give
you another call like that.

Mr. BALL. About 12:30 that day where were you?

Mr. WHALEY. Well, about 12:30 as you say, sir; I was at the Greyhound
bus station. I have a copy of my trip sheet here.

Mr. BALL. Could I see that, please?

Mr. WHALEY. The FBI took the original and the pictures of the cab and
everything.

Mr. BALL. That is what I have been waiting for.

Mr. WHALEY. I think it is supposed to be delivered to you, sir.

Mr. BALL. That is right. I am glad you have that copy.

Mr. WHALEY. I thought maybe you might need it. You look down there it
says Greyhound, 500 North Beckley, I think it is marked 12:30 to 12:45.
Now that could have been 10 minutes off in each direction because I
didn't use a watch, I just guess, in other words, all my trips are
marked about 15 minutes each.

Mr. BALL. I am going to let you use this manifest to refresh your
memory, Mr. Whaley. I have seen it. I am going to ask you some
questions and you refresh your memory if you will from the manifest.

First of all, describe the document you are using, what is that?

Mr. WHALEY. It is a trip sheet manifest. The company gets the amount of
money you have run, your meter reading and all, and they have to keep
it because of the city ordinance requirement that the taxis make this
kind of manifest.

Mr. BALL. Tell me when you make the entries, you make the entries when?

Mr. WHALEY. Sometimes I make them right after I make the trips, sir,
and sometimes I make three or four trips before I make the entries.

Mr. BALL. Are you required by your employer to describe the trip, where
you went, how far it was?

Mr. WHALEY. Not by the employer, sir. All the employers are interested
in are the meter reading and your tolls. The city of Dallas ordinance
requires that you put down where you picked the passenger up, where you
unload the passenger. They are not interested in the price, the number
of passengers and the time.

Mr. BALL. Now, the manifest does contain that information, though, does
it?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. BALL. Will you describe the different columns of the manifest, that
information that is in each column generally?

Mr. WHALEY. Over on the left side, where you see call or pickup, if you
get the call on your radio you mark with a "C" and if somebody hails
you on the street that is marked "P" for pickup.

In the next column it has the trip numbers from one to fifty.

Mr. BALL. The number of the trips you make that day?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. In the third column it says "from." Like this
first one, 4924 Belmont and then to the next column, to the airport.

The next column is the "meter reading," what the meter said, $1.75. The
next column says "flat rate." If it had been an extra passenger or so
and you had a flat rate you would put it in that column.

The third column is "charge," the people who have the charge accounts
through the company in the car, you put the meter reading in there
because you don't get cash and you put charge, the company takes it off.

The next column says the number of passengers and that first trip was
four passengers, time out six o'clock, I got that trip out of the barn
and it is marked "call."

6:20 is "time in." "Mileage in" was 44. Now, see I didn't put the
mileage out on the first one, the mileage out is up here, 35 to 44. It
would have been nine miles I made on the first trip.

Over here on the side here, it has the number of trips I made that
day which is 21, on the meter registered 21 trips 45 cents a trip is
$9.45. 157 units, a unit is a dime clicks every four-tenths of a mile.
That would be 157 units at $15.70. Added total of $25.15. I used 5-1/2
gallons of gas, had eight pickups in 13 calls and 29 passengers. That
is it complete, sir.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Now, look at your manifest and tell me where you were at 12 o'clock the
day of November 22, 1963.

Mr. WHALEY. 12 o'clock I got a call to the Travis Hotel. I have got it
marked 16 which is the Continental bus station, stand No. 15, 55 cents.
I unloaded that at 12:15.

Mr. BALL. Then where did you go at 12:15 according to your record?

Mr. WHALEY. According to my record I got a pickup at the Continental
bus station which is stand 16 and went to the Greyhound which is 55
cents. I unloaded at the Greyhound, I have got it marked 12:30. See
there is that 15 minutes you say I am off, I just mark it 15, I don't
put the correct time on the sheet because they don't require it, sir,
but anywhere approximate.

Mr. BALL. In other words, it took you about 15 minutes to go----

Mr. WHALEY. It actually took about nine minutes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And you put the trip ending Greyhound around 12:30?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You remember that trip, do you, you remember the fact that
you took the trip to the Greyhound and parked your car at the Greyhound
or your cab at the Greyhound, don't you?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I remember it.

Mr. BALL. Were you standing at the Greyhound, at your cab stand at the
Greyhound, long before you picked up another passenger?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir, there was no one at the Greyhound stand and when
I unloaded at the door I just pulled up about 30 feet to the stand
and stopped and then I wanted a package of cigarettes, I was out so I
started to get out and I saw this passenger coming so I waited for him.

Mr. BALL. He was coming down the street?

Mr. WHALEY. He was walking down the street.

Mr. BALL. What street was he walking down?

Mr. WHALEY. Lamar.

Mr. BALL. Would that mean he was walking south on Lamar?

Mr. WHALEY. He was walking south on Lamar from Commerce when I saw him.

Mr. BALL. That would be on which side of the street?

Mr. WHALEY. The west side of the street.

Mr. BALL. South on Lamar?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you notice how he was dressed?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. I didn't pay much attention to it right then. But
it all came back when I really found out who I had. He was dressed in
just ordinary work clothes. It wasn't khaki pants but they were khaki
material, blue faded blue color, like a blue uniform made in khaki.
Then he had on a brown shirt with a little silverlike stripe on it and
he had on some kind of jacket, I didn't notice very close but I think
it was a work jacket that almost matched the pants.

He, his shirt was open three buttons down here. He had on a T-shirt.
You know, the shirt was open three buttons down there.

Mr. BALL. Now, what happened after that, will you tell us in your own
words what he did?

Mr. WHALEY. Well, on this which was the 14th trip when I picked up at
the Greyhound I marked it 12:30 to 12:45.

Mr. BALL. You say that can be off 15 minutes?

Mr. WHALEY. That can be off either direction.

Mr. BALL. Anything up to 15 minutes, you say?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I wrote that trip up the same time I wrote the
one up from the Continental bus station to the Greyhound, I marked this
12:15 to 12:30 and started 12:30 to 12:45. And the next one starts at
1:15 to 1:30 and it goes on all day long every 15 minutes the time
keeps pretty approximate.

Mr. BALL. Let's take the 12:30 trip, tell me about that, what the
passenger said.

Mr. WHALEY. He said, "May I have the cab?"

I said, "You sure can. Get in." And instead of opening the back door he
opened the front door, which is allowable there, and got in.

Mr. BALL. Got in the front door?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir. The front seat. And about that time an old lady,
I think she was an old lady, I don't remember nothing but her sticking
her head down past him in the door and said, "Driver, will you call me
a cab down here?"

She had seen him get this cab and she wanted one, too, and he opened
the door a little bit like he was going to get out and he said, "I will
let you have this one," and she says, "No, the driver can call me one."

So, I didn't call one because I knew before I could call one one would
come around the block and keep it pretty well covered.

Mr. BALL. Is that what you said?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; that is not what I said, but that is the reason I
didn't call one at the time and I asked him where he wanted to go. And
he said, "500 North Beckley."

Well, I started up, I started to that address, and the police cars, the
sirens was going, running crisscrossing everywhere, just a big uproar
in that end of town and I said, "What the hell. I wonder what the hell
is the uproar?"

And he never said anything. So I figured he was one of these people
that don't like to talk so I never said any more to him.

But when I got pretty close to 500 block at Neches and North Beckley
which is the 500 block, he said, "This will do fine," and I pulled over
to the curb right there. He gave me a dollar bill, the trip was 95
cents. He gave me a dollar bill and didn't say anything, just got out
and closed the door and walked around the front of the cab over to the
other side of the street. Of course, traffic was moving through there
and I put it in gear and moved on, that is the last I saw of him.

Mr. BALL. When you parked your car you parked on what street?

Mr. WHALEY. I wasn't parked, I was pulled to the curb on Neches and
North Beckley.

Mr. BALL. Neches, corner of Neches and North Beckley?

Mr. WHALEY. Which is the 500 block.

Mr. BALL. What direction was your car?

Mr. WHALEY. South.

Mr. BALL. The cab was headed?

Mr. WHALEY. South.

Mr. BALL. And it would be on the west side of the street?

Mr. WHALEY. Parked, stopped on the west side of the intersection, yes,
sir.

Mr. BALL. When he got out of the cab did he go around in front of your
cab?

Mr. WHALEY. He went around in front, yes, sir; crossed the street.

Mr. BALL. Across to the east side of the street?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you see whether he walked south?

Mr. WHALEY. I didn't see whether he walked north or south from there.

Mr. BALL. In other words, he walked east from your cab and that is the
last time you saw him?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Was there anything in particular about him beside his
clothing that you could identify such as jewelry, bracelets?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; he had on a bracelet of some type on his left
arm. It looked like an identification bracelet. Just shiny, you know,
how you see anything shiny, an unusual watchband or something shiny,
you notice things like that.

Mr. BALL. I have a map of Dallas here, which I would like to have
marked as the Commission's next exhibit which is Exhibit No. 371.

The CHAIRMAN. It will be so marked.

(The map referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 371 for
identification.)

Mr. BALL. I would like to offer into evidence Exhibits Nos. 368 and 369
that were marked yesterday.

The CHAIRMAN. They may be admitted.

(Commission Exhibits Nos. 368 and 369, heretofore marked for
identification, were received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. And 371 being a form map of Dallas can probably be offered
in evidence at this time. It is going to be used to illustrate the
witness' testimony.

The CHAIRMAN. That may be done.

(Commission Exhibit No. 371, heretofore marked for identification was
received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. There is a map here which is described as Dallas street map,
Republic National Bank of Dallas, and in one corner of this map there
is shown a small map of downtown Dallas.

Will you point on the map there to the Greyhound bus station?

Let's take the small map. It was on the corner of Jackson?

Mr. WHALEY. And Lamar.

Mr. BALL. And Lamar.

Mr. WHALEY. The northwest corner, Greyhound bus station.

Mr. BALL. You have seen this map before, have you not?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; I am very familiar with that map.

Mr. BALL. And let's take Lamar, here is Jackson.

Mr. WHALEY. Lamar is down here, sir.

Mr. BALL. This is Jackson, this is the Houston viaduct.

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Here is Jackson, and Lamar is right there.

Mr. WHALEY. Well, the Greyhound bus station is on the northwest corner.

Mr. BALL. Suppose we make an "X" there at Jackson.

Mr. WHALEY. All right, sir.

Mr. BALL. And Lamar. That is where you picked your passenger up?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. When you started out which direction did you go, and before
you mark just take this blunt end and then we will mark it after you
describe it on the map.

Now, the next street is Austin, just to the west of Lamar?

Mr. WHALEY. That is right.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Mr. WHALEY. I turned to the left.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Mr. WHALEY. I turned to the left off Lamar onto Jackson, went one block
to Austin, then from Austin I turned to the left again and went one
block over to Wood Street.

Now, the reason for that is if you catch this light right at Lamar and
Jackson, this other light turns green as you make your turn here and
the other one turns green as you make your turn at Wood. You just move
through traffic. That was my reason for making the turn.

Then I turned left on Wood off Austin and went straight on down Wood to
Houston which is the street which we call the old viaduct.

Mr. BALL. You call that the Houston Street viaduct?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes.

(At this point Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. WHALEY. Went across the viaduct to Zangs, as soon as you get across
the angle to the left, that is Zangs Boulevard.

Mr. BALL. Take the black pen and draw your course along this small map
as far as you can go and we will go to the continuation of the map.

Now, can you tell us--did everybody see this course--now can you tell
us where you were when the sirens were blowing and you saw police cars
all around?

Mr. WHALEY. I was still at the Greyhound, sir.

Mr. BALL. You were still there?

Mr. WHALEY. They were there when I loaded.

Mr. BALL. Now, in the course of your travel down to the Houston viaduct
did you see any police cars?

Mr. WHALEY. Oh, yes, sir; lots of them, what we call triangle,
three-wheeled motorcycle, they all seemed to be converging on one spot.

Mr. BALL. What spot?

Mr. WHALEY. Well, it seemed to be the courthouse, that is what it
seemed to me at that time. I didn't know what had happened.

Mr. BALL. The courthouse is about a block from the Texas State Book
Depository?

Mr. WHALEY. You could throw a baseball from one building to the other.

Mr. BALL. Now we will turn to the large map and we will still use
the--get downtown. Here we are. Will you use--Lamar and Jackson again.

Mr. WHALEY. This will be kind of ticklish because that is very small.

Mr. BALL. That is right.

Mr. WHALEY. Main, Commerce, Jackson, Lamar.

Mr. BALL. Do the same thing.

Mr. WHALEY. To Austin, to Wood, to Houston, to the viaduct, across
the viaduct, let's see, Colorado comes in off this, this is the Zangs
Boulevard, the red line where it hits Marcel is here, that is Zangs
Boulevard. Up past Colorado, still going Zangs here.

Mr. BALL. You are going along Zangs, will you go along----

Mr. WHALEY. I am trying to find Beckley, the green light changed from
red to green on Beckley, right here is an intersection; Zangs Boulevard
goes on up, and Beckley turns off.

Mr. BALL. Here is Neches right here.

Mr. WHALEY. Let me see where Neches is, is that right? Yes, that is it.
This is the intersection right there.

Mr. BALL. We put an "X" there.

Mr. WHALEY. That is where he got off.

Mr. BALL. That is where you dropped your passenger, is that right?

Mr. WHALEY. That is--as far as I can see that is Neches.

Mr. BALL. That is Neches, that is Beckley.

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is right, because that is the 500 block of
North Beckley.

Mr. BALL. Now, we will mark the beginning of your trip on the large map
as "Y", and where you dropped your passenger as an "X".

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. "Y" is the corner of Lamar and Jackson, and "X" is the corner
of Neches and Beckley.

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. O.K.

Can you tell me what distance that was?

Mr. WHALEY. Well, it was 95 cents on the meter, the meter starts off at
45 cents, then it goes four-tenths of a mile and it clicks a dime which
would be 55, then a dime every four-tenths of a mile after that and it
was almost ready to click a $1.05 when it stopped, so I imagine that
would be 55 cents, would be eight-tenths of a mile and then after the
first 45 cents it runs 25 cents a mile, because it gets a dime every
four-tenths.

Mr. BALL. So you had 95 cents?

Mr. WHALEY. 65 cents would be three, four-tenths, would be 1 mile and
two-tenths. 75 would be one mile and six-tenths. 85 would be one--would
be 2 miles. 95 would be 2 and four-tenths, almost ready to click.

Mr. BALL. What do you give them for 45 cents?

Mr. WHALEY. Four-tenths of a mile.

Mr. BALL. Four-tenths of a mile?

Mr. WHALEY. It goes four-tenths of a mile.

Mr. BALL. Five clicks after the first?

Mr. WHALEY. 45 cents.

Mr. BALL. Well, then, you ran about----

Mr. WHALEY. About 2-1/2 miles, sir.

Mr. BALL. Two and one-half miles?

Mr. WHALEY. Approximately.

Mr. BALL. Two miles and four-tenths approximately.

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Can you give me any estimate of the time it took you to go
that 2-1/2 miles?

Mr. WHALEY. Not actually, sir. I run it again with the policeman
because the policeman was worried, he run the same trip and he couldn't
come out the same time I did. But he was turning off of Jackson and
Lamar when the light was wrong, and he was hitting a red light at
Wood--I mean at Austin and Jackson and he hit a red light at Wood and
Austin, then he hit a red light at Houston. Where I wait to make my
turn until the light is right just after it has been green, almost
ready for it to come red, turn right then, then the other lights turn
green just as fast as you get to them, go on right through, you save
about 2 minutes in traffic that way. That is where I got the 2 minutes
on him he never could make up. So I had to go back with him to make
that trip to to show him I was right.

Mr. BALL. How much time, in that experiment, when you hit the lights
right, how long did it take you?

Mr. WHALEY. Nine minutes.

Mr. BALL. Nine minutes?

Mr. WHALEY. Nine minutes.

Representative FORD. Now on this particular trip with Oswald, do you
recall the lights being with you?

Mr. WHALEY. They were with me, sir; for I timed them that way before I
took off. Because I made that so much that I know the light system and
how they are going to turn.

Representative FORD. So this was a typical trip?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The witness has been driving a taxicab in Dallas for 36
years.

Mr. WHALEY. Thirty-seven, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Thirty-seven.

Mr. WHALEY. You name an intersection in the city of Dallas and I will
tell you what is on all four corners.

Mr. BALL. Did you stop and let your passenger out on this run on the
north or south side of the intersection?

Mr. WHALEY. On the north side, sir.

Mr. BALL. North side?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That would be----

Mr. WHALEY. Northwest corner.

Mr. BALL. Northwest corner of Neches and Beckley?

Mr. WHALEY. Northwest corner of Neches and Beckley.

Mr. BALL. I have some clothing here. Commission Exhibit No. 150, does
that look like the shirt?

Mr. WHALEY. That is the shirt, sir, it has my initials on it.

Mr. BALL. In other words, this is the shirt the man had on?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir; that is the same one the FBI man had me identify.

Mr. BALL. This is the shirt the man had on who took your car at Lamar
and Jackson?

Mr. WHALEY. As near as I can recollect as I told him. I said that is
the shirt he had on because it had a kind of little stripe in it,
light-colored stripe. I noticed that.

Mr. BALL. Here are two pair of pants, Commission Exhibit No. 157 and
Commission Exhibit No. 156. Does it look anything like that?

Mr. WHALEY. I don't think I can identify the pants except they were the
same color as that, sir.

Mr. BALL. Which color?

Mr. WHALEY. More like this lighter color, at least they were cleaner or
something.

Mr. BALL. That is 157?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. But you are not sure about that?

Mr. WHALEY. I am not sure about the pants. I wouldn't be sure of the
shirt if it hadn't had that light stripe in it. I just noticed that.

Mr. BALL. Here is Commission No. 162 which is a gray jacket with zipper.

Mr. WHALEY. I think that is the jacket he had on when he rode with me
in the cab.

Mr. BALL. Look something like it?

And here is Commission Exhibit No. 163, does this look like anything he
had on?

Mr. WHALEY. He had this one on or the other one.

Mr. BALL. That is right.

Mr. WHALEY. That is what I told you I noticed. I told you about the
shirt being open, he had on the two jackets with the open shirt.

Mr. BALL. Wait a minute, we have got the shirt which you have
identified as the rust brown shirt with the gold stripe in it.

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You said that a jacket----

Mr. WHALEY. That jacket now it might have been clean, but the jacket he
had on looked more the color, you know like a uniform set, but he had
this coat here on over that other jacket, I am sure, sir.

Mr. BALL. This is the blue-gray jacket, heavy blue-gray jacket.

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Later that day did you--were you called down to the police
department?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Were you the next day?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; they came and got me, sir, the next day after
I told my superior when I saw in the paper his picture, I told my
superiors that that had been my passenger that day at noon. They called
up the police and they came up and got me.

Mr. BALL. When you saw in the newspaper the picture of the man?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You went to your superior and told him you thought he was
your passenger?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did the Dallas police come out to see you?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Or FBI agents?

Mr. WHALEY. The Dallas police came down and took me down and the FBI
was waiting there.

Mr. BALL. Before they brought you down did they show you a picture?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. They didn't?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. They brought you down to the Dallas police station?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you do there?

Mr. WHALEY. Well, I tried to get by the reporters, stepping over
television cables and you couldn't hardly get by, they would grab
you and wanted to know what you were doing down here, even with the
detectives one in front and one behind you. Then they took me in
an office there and I think Bill Alexander, the Assistant District
Attorney, two or three, I was introduced to two or three who were FBI
men and they wanted my deposition of what happened.

So, I told them to the best of my ability. Then they took me down in
their room where they have their show-ups, and all, and me and this
other taxi driver who was with me, sir, we sat in the room awhile and
directly they brought in six men, young teenagers, and they all were
handcuffed together. Well, they wanted me to pick out my passenger.

At that time he had on a pair of black pants and white T-shirt, that is
all he had on. But you could have picked him out without identifying
him by just listening to him because he was bawling out the policeman,
telling them it wasn't right to put him in line with these teen-agers
and all of that and they asked me which one and I told them. It was him
all right, the same man.

Mr. BALL. They had him in line with men much younger?

Mr. WHALEY. With five others.

Mr. BALL. Men much younger?

Mr. WHALEY. Not much younger, but just young kids they might have got
them in jail.

Mr. BALL. Did he look older than those other boys?

Mr. WHALEY. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And he was talking, was he?

Mr. WHALEY. He showed no respect for the policemen, he told them what
he thought about them. They knew what they were doing and they were
trying to railroad him and he wanted his lawyer.

Mr. BALL. Did that aid you in the identification of the man?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; it wouldn't have at all, except that I said
anybody who wasn't sure could have picked out the right one just for
that. It didn't aid me because I knew he was the right one as soon as I
saw him.

Mr. BALL. You don't think that that in any way influenced your
identification?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir; it did not. When you drive a taxi, sir, as long as
I have, you can almost look at a man, in fact, you have to, to be able
to tell whether you can trust or whether you can't trust him, what he
is.

Now, like you got in my taxicab and I looked you over and you told me
just wait for me here and went in the building, well, I will have to
know whether I could just say, "OK, sir." Or say, "Will you leave me a
$5 bill, sir?"

When you drive a taxi that long you learn to judge people and what I
actually thought of the man when he got in was that he was a wino who
had been off his bottle for about two days, that is the way he looked,
sir, that was my opinion of him.

Mr. BALL. What was there about his appearance that gave you that
impression? Hair mussed?

Mr. WHALEY. Just the slow way he walked up. He didn't talk. He wasn't
in any hurry. He wasn't nervous or anything.

Mr. BALL. He didn't run?

Mr. WHALEY. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did he look dirty?

Mr. WHALEY. He looked like his clothes had been slept in, sir, but
he wasn't actually dirty. The T-shirt was a little soiled around the
collar but the bottom part of it was white. You have to know those
winos, or they will get in and ride with you and there isn't nothing
you can do but call the police, the city gets the fine and you get
nothing.

Mr. BALL. Who was the other cab driver?

Mr. WHALEY. I don't know his name, sir. He worked for the same company
but he works out of the Oak Cliff branch. They say he was the one who
saw him kill the policeman, the one who used the policeman's microphone.

Mr. BALL. Is that Mr. Scoggins?

Mr. WHALEY. What is his name?

Mr. BALL. Scoggins.

Mr. WHALEY. It could have been, sir.

Mr. BALL. You don't know him?

Mr. WHALEY. I just know he drives taxi 213. He works out of Oak Cliff
branch.

Mr. BALL. I would like to have a copy of the manifest temporarily
marked 370.

Mr. WHALEY. You may have it, sir.

Mr. BALL. Commission 370, and offer it into evidence and ask leave to
submit the original, if it is brought in, when it is brought here by
the FBI.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes, it may be admitted.

(The manifest referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 370 for
identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. This will be 370.

Could we excuse Mr. Whaley now? There are two pieces of evidence to be
here and they are not here.

The CHAIRMAN. Excuse him and we will take the other witness.

Mr. BALL. We will excuse him and take the other witness.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Whaley, will you wait outside until we get the other
exhibits and we will finish with you very shortly.

Mr. McWatters, would you be seated please.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. The Commission is meeting today to take further testimony
concerning the events surrounding the assassination of President
Kennedy, and it is our understanding that you have some information
that would bear on that subject, and that is the reason for our asking
you to come here and testify.

Would you raise your right hand to be sworn please.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you give before this Commission
will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?

Mr. McWATTERS. I do.


TESTIMONY OF CECIL J. McWATTERS

The CHAIRMAN. Would you be seated please, and Mr. Ball will conduct the
interrogation.

Mr. BALL. Mr. McWatters.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What is your business?

Mr. McWATTERS. I am a bus driver.

Mr. BALL. How long have you been a bus driver?

Mr. McWATTERS. Let's see, this coming September will be 19 years.

Mr. BALL. Whom do you work for?

Mr. McWATTERS. The Dallas Transit Company.

Mr. BALL. How long have you worked for the Dallas Transit Company?

Mr. McWATTERS. It will be 19 years in September, I believe.

Mr. BALL. Where do you live?

Mr. McWATTERS. 2523 Blyth Drive, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. BALL. On November 22,1963, were you on duty as a driver?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What kind of a bus were you driving?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I was driving a 44-passenger, let's see, it is a
44-passenger city bus made by White, I believe is the maker of the bus.

Mr. BALL. What hours of work were you assigned that day?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I was assigned that day on the particular run from
11:52 until 2:27.

Mr. BALL. What was your run?

Mr. McWATTERS. Do you mean the name of the run?

Mr. BALL. What course did you take, what part of Dallas did you drive
in.

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I went from----

Mr. BALL. Describe it generally, you don't need to go into any detail.

Mr. McWATTERS. I would say from northeast Dallas in the Lakewood
addition of Dallas to the Oak Cliff addition of Dallas, which is, would
be southwest.

Mr. BALL. Would that be northeast to southwest?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. There is a place near the downtown area of Dallas where you
timed your run, wasn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I have after I get into town, when I get into
the downtown part of it, now St. Paul Street is my official time point
going in, where they have a supervisor that stays at this checkpoint
there, to check all incoming vehicles.

Mr. BALL. You would be coming in from northeast Dallas at that time?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I am coming in from the Lakewood addition of
Dallas, which I came in on. The main thoroughfare is Gaston Avenue.

Mr. BALL. And you got to the intersection of what street and St. Paul
when you were timed by your dispatcher?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is Elm, Elm Street.

Mr. BALL. Elm and St. Paul?

Mr. McWATTERS. Elm and St. Paul.

Mr. BALL. If you are ahead of time do you stop there until you are
assigned a time to get in?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, sir; no sir; you don't--a man he has his watch and
schedule. If you are ahead of your schedule he will come out and stop
you, in other words, and ask you if your watch is right or what is it,
you know, the idea of you being there. There is no excuse, you know for
a man being ahead of his schedule.

Mr. BALL. If you are ahead of your schedule does he stop you there
until you leave?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is right.

Mr. BALL. What time are you due, according to your schedule, to leave
the corner of St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. 12:36.

Mr. BALL. What time did you leave there that day?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I left there that day on time because coming into
town that day, I guess everybody done went to, down to, see the parade,
I didn't have over four or five passengers coming into downtown.

Mr. BALL. Were you ahead of your schedule?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I stopped about a block before--now, just a block
before we get to St. Paul, there is a big theater there, and it has all
loading zones, no parking there and a lot of times if we are a minute
or two ahead of our schedule when we pull in in front of this theater
before we get there in time, in other words, we kill a minute.

Mr. BALL. What did you do this day?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I was a little ahead of my schedule and I killed
about a minute, I guess, before I went to cross St. Paul Street.

Mr. BALL. After your dispatcher checked you in what time did you leave
that corner of St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the best I can remember I don't recall even
picking up a passenger there. I think I discharged one lady passenger
there on that, to the best I can recall, because I remember that I had,
when I crossed Field Street, I think I had five passengers on my bus.

Mr. BALL. Well then, back to the question, what time did you leave that
day, leave Elm and St. Paul?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would have to say I left there around, in other
words, 12:36 because I know I was on good time when I come in there.

Mr. BALL. And you think you left at the time you were supposed to leave?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I am almost positive I did, because, as I say, we
generally come in on schedules on good time because from that street on
is where we generally--for the next seven or eight blocks--is where we
get all of our passengers going through the downtown area.

Mr. BALL. Had you heard any sirens before you got to St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you know if your dispatcher keeps a written record?

Mr. McWATTERS. The only way he keeps a written record is if you are
ahead of your schedule. He has a little pad, and if a man is ahead of
his schedule, in other words, he writes, of course, we all go by badge
numbers, in other words, he would write your badge number, your bus
number, and if you was ahead of schedule he would write how much ahead
of schedule you were, and----

Mr. BALL. Do you think he did anything, did he write anything up on you
on that day?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; the guy that we have down there now, if you are
ahead of schedule he will come out, in other words, because he stands
on the corner all the time, and if you are a minute or two ahead of
your schedule he will come out and if nothing else, converse with you
for a minute or two to see that you leave it on time and very seldom, I
mean, if ever--of course, a report goes in on you, it goes against your
record.

Mr. BALL. In other words, if he did make a record it would be by way of
a reprimand to you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. As you went on down Elm you left your post at St. Paul and
Elm, did you hear any sirens?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you pick up any passengers?

Mr. McWATTERS. I picked up within a period of from the time I picked up
two or three passengers, I can't recall just exactly which stop. I have
after I leave St. Paul Street, I have Ervay Street and Akard Street,
and Field Street which would be three stops where I can't recall that,
exactly where I discharged or picked up passengers, because I had the
few passengers that I had which I came into town with.

Mr. BALL. Well then, do you remember picking up a passenger at a place
other than at a bus stop as you went down Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

As I left Field Street, I pulled out into the, in other words, the
first lane of traffic and traffic was beginning to back up then; in
other words, it was blocked further down the street, and after I pulled
out in it for a short distance there I come to a complete stop, and
when I did, someone come up and beat on the door of the bus, and that
is about even with Griffin Street.

In other words, it is a street that dead ends into Elm Street which
there is no bus stop at this street, because I stopped across Field
Street in the middle of the intersection and it is just a short
distance onto Griffin Street, and that is when someone, a man, came up
and knocked on the door of the bus, and I opened the door of the bus
and he got on.

Mr. BALL. You were beyond Field and before you got to Griffin?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. It was along about even with Griffin
Street before I was stopped in the traffic.

Mr. BALL. And that is about seven or eight blocks from the Texas Book
Depository Building, isn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. It would be seven, I would say that is seven,
it would be about seven blocks.

Mr. BALL. From there?

Mr. McWATTERS. From there, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did the man look like who knocked on your door and got
on your bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I didn't pay any particular attention to him. He
was to me just dressed in what I would call work clothes, just some
type of little old jacket on, and I didn't pay any particular attention
to the man when he got on.

Mr. BALL. Paid his fare, did he?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; he just paid his fare and sat down on the
second cross seat on the right.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember whether or not you gave him a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Not when he got on; no, sir.

Mr. BALL. You didn't. Did you ever give him a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I gave him one about two blocks from where he
got on.

Mr. BALL. Did he ask you for a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember what he said to you when he asked you for the
transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the reason I recall the incident, I had--there
was a lady that when I stopped in this traffic, there was a lady who
had a suitcase and she said, "I have got to make a 1 o'clock train at
Union Station," and she said, "I don't believe--from the looks of this
traffic you are going to be held up."

She said, "Would you give me a transfer and I am going to walk on
down," which is about from where I was at that time about 7 or 8 blocks
to Union Station and she asked me if I would give her a transfer in
case I did get through the traffic if I would pick her up on the way.

So, I said, "I sure will." So I gave her a transfer and opened the door
and as she was going out the gentleman I had picked up about 2 blocks
asked for a transfer and got off at the same place in the middle of
the block where the lady did.

Mr. BALL. Where was that near, what intersection?

Mr. McWATTERS. It was the intersection near Lamar Street, it was
near Poydras and Lamar Street. It is a short block, but the main
intersection there is Lamar Street.

Mr. BALL. He had been on the bus about 2 blocks?

Mr. McWATTERS. About 2 blocks; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Up to that time had you heard any sirens?

Mr. McWATTERS. Not up until--now just about the time that, let's see,
that is when I left Griffin, right about the time this gentleman got on
the bus the traffic was starting and that was about the first that I
can recall of hearing the sirens, but when, in other words, when they
started it seemed to me like they was coming from all over town.

Mr. BALL. Did you have a radio in your bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you hear a radio from nearby cars announcing anything
about the President's assassination?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, there was cars that were stopped alongside of the
bus and I think someone raised the window but I couldn't hear. I never
did hear anything outside of the----

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you first heard the President had been
shot?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I was sitting in the bus, there was some gentleman
in front of me in a car, and he came back and walked up to the bus and
I opened the door and he said, "I have heard over my radio in my car
that the President has been--" I believe he used the word--"has been
shot."

Mr. BALL. Is that when you were stalled in traffic?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. That is when I was stalled right there.

Mr. BALL. Was that before or after the man got off the bus that asked
for the transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. That was before. In other words, at that time no one had
gotten off the bus.

Mr. BALL. What was your location then, near what street?

Mr. McWATTERS. Between Poydras and Lamar, in other words, because I
stayed stopped there for, I guess oh, 3 or 4 minutes anyway before I
made any progress at that one stop right there and that is where the
gentleman got off the bus. In fact, I was talking to the man, the man
that come out of the car; in other words, he just stepped up in the
door of the bus, and was telling me that what he had heard over his
radio and that is when the lady who was standing there decided she
would walk and when the other gentleman decided he would also get off
at that point.

Mr. BALL. At that point.

What course did you take after that?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I still was going west, in other words, in the
same direction, going west, in other words, towards Houston Street. In
other words, I went there before I changed my course which was about, I
would say, three or four blocks.

When I got to Houston Street, in other words, I turned to the left,
which would be south----

Mr. BALL. You went by the Texas School Book Depository Building?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I turned at the corner of Elm Street and
Houston which this book store is on the opposite corner from where I
changed course there.

Mr. BALL. Was traffic still heavy along there?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; the traffic was still tied up, but the police,
they opened up a lane there, they had so many buses and everything that
was tied up, they opened up, moved traffic around that they run quite a
few of these buses through there.

In other words, from two blocks on this side of where the incident
happened they had, in other words, they was turning all the traffic to
the right and to the left, in other words, north and south.

Mr. BALL. You went on down to Houston viaduct then?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I turned after they finally let--they weren't
letting any cars through at that time but they just run a bunch of
those buses through there.

Mr. BALL. Is there a bus stop in front of the Texas School Book
Depository Building?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL, Where do you stop for that intersection?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, you stop, in other words, on this side of the
street.

Mr. BALL. You stop on the south side of, the southeast corner of the
intersection?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

In other words, like you would be going, direct south towards the
Building, the bus stop is on this corner over here on this side.

Mr. BALL. You mean the corner of Houston and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Which corner, north, south, east, west?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, it would be on the north.

Mr. BALL. North.

Mr. McWATTERS. On the north.

Mr. BALL. Here is a map and maybe you can show us where the bus stop
is. This is Exhibit No. 371.

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, this is south, in other words.

Mr. BALL. This is west. You are going west on Elm.

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, I am going--right here is where the
police had all traffic, they wasn't allowing anything to go any further
than Market Street here.

In other words, all the traffic there they were moving was turning
either to the right or left, on Market Street. But after they held us
up there so long, of course, they run these buses in this right lane
here and they did open up and let a bunch of these buses go right on
down here to Houston, of course, a lot of them go straight on and a
lot of them turn left to Houston Street, a lot of them go under the
underpass here.

Mr. BALL. Wait a minute, you turned to the left?

Mr. McWATTERS. I turned to the left.

Mr. BALL. On Houston?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, my last stop, in other words at this
corner right here on Record Street, all buses turning to the left have
to stop at this corner right here.

Mr. BALL. At Record and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. At Record and Elm.

Mr. BALL. Do you have a bus stop at Houston and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; there is a bus stop there for the buses that
go on under the underpass.

Mr. BALL. Is there a bus stop for the buses that go south on Houston?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; all the buses, we have to get in, this is a
one-way street and you have to get over in this lane here.

Mr. BALL. By the lane you mean the extreme left lane?

Mr. McWATTERS. The extreme left lane to make----

Mr. BALL. To make the left turn south on Houston Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And your last bus stop, as you go west on Elm and before you
turn is the northeast corner of Record and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. BALL. You went on over to Houston Viaduct into the Oak Cliff
section, didn't you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; to the Oak Cliff section.

Mr. BALL. And there was some conversation occurred on that bus that you
told the FBI officers about?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Tell us what that was?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, there was a teenage boy, I would say 17 or 18
years of age, who was sitting to my right on the first cross seat and
me and him had, we had conversationed a little while we was tied up
in the traffic, you know, of the fact of we wondered where all, what
all the excitement was due to the fact of the sirens and others, and
after I turned on Houston Street I said to him and I made the remark,
I wonder where the President was shot, and I believe he made the
remark that it was probably in the head if he was in a convertible
or something to that effect. I don't remember just exactly the way
we worded it or what it was, but it was a conversation about the
President, in other words, to where he was shot.

In other words, and he made the remark or something, he was probably
shot in the head, if he was sitting in a convertible or to that effect.
I really don't know just exactly at that time. Just like I say I never
thought anything about it.

Mr. BALL. Didn't some lady say something?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, yes, sir.

Now, as we got on out on Marsalis, along about it was either Edgemont
or Vermont, I believe it was Vermont Street, there was a lady who was
fixing to cross the intersection and I stopped and asked her if she was
going to catch the bus into town from the opposite direction, and she
said that she was and I told her that we was off schedule, that the
other bus had done went into town, and I asked her did she care to just
ride on to the end of the line and come back and she wouldn't have to
stand there and wait, and she was getting on, and I asked her had she
heard the news of the President being shot, at the time that was all I
knew about it, and she said, "No, what are you--you are just kidding
me."

I said, "No, I really am not kidding you." I said, "It is the truth
from all the reliable sources that we have come in contact with," and
this teenage boy sitting on the side, I said "Well, now, if you think
I am kidding you," I said, "Ask this gentleman sitting over here," and
he kind of, I don't know whether it was a grinning or smile or whatever
expression it was, and she said, "I know you are kidding now, because
he laughed or grinned or made some remark to that effect."

And I just told her no it wasn't no kidding matter, but that was part
of the conversation that was said at that time.

Mr. BALL. Was this teenage boy--do you know where this teenage boy got
on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; he got on at between, he got on at the stop,
in other words, I stopped in front of the Majestic theater which is a
block before I get to St. Paul; in other words, it is a middle of the
stop, block stop, in other words. We pull in and stop in the center of
the block, and my next stop would be St. Paul; in other words, that is
where the teenage boy got on.

Mr. BALL. He was on the bus when this man knocked on the door of your
bus and got on?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. BALL. He was on the bus when the man asked for the transfer and got
off?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Were you later called down to the--did the teenage boy ask
for any transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, you were called down to the Dallas police department
later, weren't you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What day was it?

Mr. McWATTERS. It was on the same day, the 22d.

Mr. BALL. 22d. Do you know how they happened to get in touch with you,
did you notify them that you----

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I didn't know anything to that effect.

Mr. BALL. Did they come out and get you?

Mr. McWATTERS. They come out and----

Mr. BALL. What did they ask you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they stopped me; it was, I would say around 6:15
or somewhere around 6:15 or 6:20 that afternoon.

Mr. BALL. You were still on duty, were you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Still on your bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. I was on duty but I was on a different line and a
different bus.

Mr. BALL. What did they ask you when they came out?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they stopped me right by the city hall there when
I come by there and they wanted me to come in, they wanted to ask me
some questions. And I don't know what it was about or anything until I
got in there and they told me what happened.

Mr. BALL. What did they tell you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they told me that they had a transfer that I had
issued that was cut for Lamar Street at 1 o'clock, and they wanted to
know if I knew anything about it. And I, after I looked at the transfer
and my punch, I said yes, that is the transfer I issued because it had
my punch mark on it.

Mr. BALL. Did your punch mark have a distinctive mark?

Mr. McWATTERS. It had a distinctive mark and it is registered, in other
words, all the drivers, every driver has a different punch mark.

Mr. BALL. What makes it different?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, it is, it would be, the symbol of it or angle, in
other words, every one; it is different, in other words.

Mr. BALL. You have a punch there?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I have the punch right here.

Mr. BALL. Is that the punch that you used?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is the punch I used.

Mr. BALL. Will you punch a piece of paper and show us?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, that is the type of punch that this one
makes right here, in other words.

Mr. BALL. That is a different type of punch than any other driver has?

Mr. McWATTERS. Any driver, in other words.

Mr. BALL. On any bus in Dallas?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, the superintendent has a list, in other
words, it would be just like this and every man has a punch and he has
his name, and everything. In other words, if anyone calls in about
a transfer or anything, I mean brings one in he can look right down
the list by the punch mark and tell whose punch it is, and who it is
registered to.

Mr. BALL. Now, the sample of your punch there has been on a piece of
paper and we would like to have it marked as 372 at this time.

(The paper referred to was marked Commission Exhibit No. 372 and
received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. If you punched, made a punch mark, on a transfer, did you
designate the time of the punch or the place of the punch?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I designate the time of the--we have one
general transfer point. In other words, Lamar Street is what we call
our general transfer point in which all transfers are cut within the
quarter of the hour in which you are supposed to be there.

In other words, if you was to arrive there at, say, 12:50 or in that
vicinity, you always give the passenger the 15 minutes, in other words,
within the hour of the transfer. In other words, is the way they have
you to cut your transfers across your cutter.

In other words, it is just a little thing that you raise up and down
and you can adjust them, and right here is a book of them in which you
can see the time. It is one, in other words, 2:15, 3:30, and 4:45, and
we set them in other words, if you wanted at 1:15, 1 o'clock would be
across this direction. If you wanted it 1:15 you would cut across this
direction or if you wanted it 1:45 you would cut it in this direction.
In other words, 1:15, -:30 and -:45. In other words, the 15 minutes is
always given at the time, at the general transfer point.

Representative FORD. It is 10:25 now. How would you cut it right now?

Mr. McWATTERS. At 10:25.

Representative FORD. Why don't you cut one?

Mr. McWATTERS. I have a regular cutter, you see; let's see if he can
get something that would--in other words, 10:25, I will just cut it, in
other words, cut across there, and cut it, in other words, at 10:30,
in other words, it would show at 10:30.

(At this point, Senator Cooper entered the hearing room.)

Representative FORD. Where do you put your own identification?

Mr. McWATTERS. On here. Well, if it is in the morning or in the
afternoon, here is your a.m., or your p.m. In other words, it is before
12:45, in other words, we consider up to 12:45 a.m., in other words,
that is the way they are.

In other words, I would punch it in the a.m. side of it, and if it
was in the afternoon, in other words, after that, it would be a p.m.
transfer, and whatever line that you are working has the name on it
right here.

In other words, at that time that transfer I had punched was punched a
p.m. Lakewood, in other words, because I was coming from the Lakewood
addition is the way that was punched on the transfer.

Mr. BALL. Well now, do you punch the transfer when the passenger asks
for it?

Mr. McWATTERS. No. No, sir; in other words, when you leave this, you
are inbound when you are going into town or when you are going, in
other words, out of town, in other words.

I was coming in, in other words, when I got in Lakewood Addition I set
my transfers for downtown.

Mr. BALL. For downtown and you set them for what time?

Mr. McWATTERS. I set them for 1 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. You set them for 1 o'clock?

Mr. McWATTERS. 1 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. When you reached your end of the run in northeast Dallas then
you set your transfers for 1 o'clock, did you?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, when I was coming back in.

Mr. BALL. And when you gave this transfer near Poydras and Elm----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you pull out a transfer that had already been set for 1
o'clock time?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. In other words, I just reached up on my cutter
and just tore off one which is already punched.

Mr. BALL. Then did you punch it again or was it already punched?

Mr. McWATTERS. It was already punched.

Mr. BALL. And you had punched it at the end of the line?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. So all you had to do is pull the transfer off of the pile of
transfers and hand it to the man?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. And you had anticipated at the end of the line that when
you got to about this point it would be a 1 o'clock transfer, is that
correct?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, that is right.

In other words, there is enough time on it, just like I say, within a
quarter of an hour, but----

Mr. BALL. When you got to the police station that day did they show you
a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. What did you tell them about the transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I recognized the transfer as being the transfer
that I had issued.

Mr. BALL. How did you recognize it?

Mr. McWATTERS. By my punch mark on it.

Mr. BALL. And what about the line?

Mr. McWATTERS. The line?

Mr. BALL. Lakewood.

Mr. McWATTERS. The Lakewood punch on it, and where it was punched and
Lakewood with my punch mark on it.

Mr. BALL. Were you able to identify it any further as a particular
transfer you had given to any particular passenger?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir. Only----

Mr. BALL. Go ahead.

Mr. McWATTERS. I only gave two transfers going through town on that
trip and that was at the one stop of where I gave the lady and the
gentleman that got off the bus, I issued two transfers. But that was
the only two transfers that were issued.

Mr. BALL. Did you tell the police in Dallas that?

Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether I did or not.

Mr. BALL. But you do remember it now?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

(At this point Chief Justice Warren left the hearing room.)

Mr. BALL. All right. Now, what else did you do that day?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, let's see----

Mr. BALL. Did they show you any prisoner?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; when they stopped me over there and took me
into the police department there, like I say, it was around 6:15 or
6:20, they took me down before the lineup there and asked me if I could
identify anyone in that lineup as getting on my bus that day.

Mr. BALL. Did they take you down and show you a lineup?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You sat there with police officers and they brought men in
there?

Mr. McWATTERS. They brought four men out. In other words, four men
under the lights; in other words, they was all----

Mr. BALL. All the same age?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; they were different ages, different sizes and
different heights. And they asked me if I could identify any man in
particular there, and I told them that I couldn't identify any man in
particular, but there was one man there that was about the size of the
man. Now, I was referring back, after they done showed me this transfer
at that time and I knew which trip, that I went through town on at that
time, in other words, on the Lakewood trip and just like I recalled,
I only put out two transfers and I told them that there was one man
in the lineup was about the size and the height and complexion of a
man that got on my bus, but as far as positively identifying the man I
could not do it.

Mr. BALL. What was the size and the height and complexion of the man
that knocked on the window of this bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would say, just like I told the police, to me he
was just a medium-sized man. To me he was, I would say, not, I wouldn't
call him--just of average weight, and I would say a light-complected,
to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. BALL. When you say "average weight" what do you mean?

Mr. McWATTERS. I figured just like I saw, the man, he looked like to me
the best way I can describe him would be 135 or 140 pounds.

Mr. BALL. What about height?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I told them, it looked like to me he
would probably be five-seven or five-eight, in that vicinity.

Mr. BALL. Anyway, you were not able to identify any man in the lineup
as the passenger?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. As the passenger who had gotten on?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You said there was one man who closely resembled in height,
weight and color?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. Do you know who that was?

Mr. McWATTERS. Just like I told them, I didn't know who was who or
anything.

Mr. BALL. Did you ever learn who that person was?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I don't know whether that was really the man or
not, I don't know.

Mr. BALL. I see.

Now, I have a map here.

(Discussion off the record.)

Representative FORD. All right, proceed.

Mr. BALL. You remember you told us about the man that knocked on the
window of the door of your bus just before you got to Griffin, wasn't
it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; along about the vicinity of Griffin Street, it
comes to.

Mr. BALL. You let him on the bus, and he paid his fare, how much is
that fare?

Mr. McWATTERS. It is 23 cents.

Mr. BALL. 23 cents, and you went about down almost to Poydras.

Mr. McWATTERS. Almost, between Poydras and Lamar.

Mr. BALL. Between Poydras and Lamar, closer to Lamar than to Poydras?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. And a man got on. Was it the same man?

Mr. McWATTERS. That was the same man who got on the bus that I picked
up, in other words.

Mr. BALL. And the man you gave the transfer to?

Mr. McWATTERS. The man I gave the transfer to when the woman--in other
words, when the man that got on Griffin Street there got off at the
same place she did.

Mr. BALL. And he was only on the bus about 2 blocks?

Mr. McWATTERS. Two blocks was the only distance.

Mr. BALL. How long did it take you to go those 2 blocks?

Mr. McWATTERS. Now, he paid as far as from St. Paul Street. I
made--there wasn't any traffic holding me up whatsoever, I come on
right down to where I picked the man up there, in other words, about
Field, and that is where the traffic was starting to back up to. So
the best of my knowledge I would say it took me 3 or 4 minutes to get
down there, so I will just have to say it was in the vicinity of around
12:40.

Mr. BALL. In other words, how long was the man on your bus, the man
who got on, about Griffin and got off and you gave him the transfer,
approximately?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, he got on, and when he got on, I made that one
block, and then the other, well, I would be safe in saying he wasn't on
there 5 minutes.

Mr. BALL. And you think he got off or on around 12:40?

Mr. McWATTERS. 12:40 that is the best.

Mr. BALL. What time did you say he got on approximately?

Mr. McWATTERS. On the bus?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would say in the vicinity from where I left
up there it would be probably it took me, I would say, 3 minutes to
come, let's see, it would be Ervay, Akard and Field, that is about 3
blocks there where I left my time point which I would say just a rough
estimation it would be with no traffic would be 2 or 3 minutes, I would
say 3 minutes anyway.

So, it must have been somewheres 12:39 or--so.

Mr. BALL. When he got on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. 12:40.

Mr. BALL. And then he was on the bus about how many minutes?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say he wasn't on the bus over 4 or 5
minutes, in other words, just made that 1 block there, and in other
words, when the traffic stopped, well, that is when he got off the bus.

Representative FORD. During the time he was on the bus this man rapped
at your door or was your door open, and spoke up and said that the
President had been shot?

Mr. McWATTERS. He was on the bus, you mean was the door open?

Representative FORD. No. You previously testified that while you were
stalled or jammed up in the traffic----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. A man came to the door of the bus and indicated by
word of mouth----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. That the President had been shot.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Now, was the man to whom you issued the transfer
on the bus at that time?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Now, the man who spoke up and said that the
President had been shot, how loudly did he say that?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, he said it loud enough that I guess everybody on
the bus heard him when he stepped up in the bus.

Representative FORD. In other words, that would be your best impression
or best recollection that whoever said this, that the President had
been shot, said it loudly enough for not only you but the other bus
passengers to hear it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. Because he stepped up in the bus and when he
made the statement in other words, he said that the President had been
shot, because I am pretty sure everybody--he said it to the fact. I
think that everybody, there might have been some, if there was anybody
in the extreme back of the bus, might not have heard it, but I think
anyone who was near the front part of the bus could have.

Representative FORD. But at that time when this man made this
statement, there was a teenager sitting in the first cross seat on the
right-hand side of the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And the man who had gotten on the bus to whom you
later issued the transfer, was sitting in the second?

Mr. McWATTERS. In the second seat.

Representative FORD. What is the distance from the door of the bus
where the man was standing who made this statement to the second cross
seat?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I would say, let's see, it would be I would say 6
or 8 feet.

Representative FORD. Was he sitting alone in the second cross seat?

Mr. McWATTERS. He was sitting alone.

Representative FORD. Did you notice any reaction on the part of any of
your passengers to this comment by this man who made this statement?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the only reaction that I knew is when he got up
and said that, well, that is when the lady got off first, which she
jumped up and got her suitcase and said, in other words, made a remark
to something. "I am afraid you are going to be tied up here in this
traffic and I want to get off."

Representative FORD. Where was this lady sitting who got up and asked
for this transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Now, this lady was sitting behind me, in other words, I
am the driver.

Representative FORD. On the left-hand side of the bus looking forward?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; in other words, it is a cross seat. I mean a
side seat, in other words, like the driver sitting here, the first seat
is the one that runs parallel with the bus, in other words.

Representative FORD. Well now, the seat in which the lady was sitting
would be parallel to the second cross seat on the other side of the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, in other words----

Representative FORD. It would be on the same line?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. The first seat would be ahead--the first seat on
the right-hand side of the bus would be ahead of the seat where the
lady was sitting?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, you mean the lady, I am referring to who got off
first?

Representative FORD. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. No, the lady--I was sitting in the driver's seat, she
was sitting right behind me, in other words, facing out his way.

Representative FORD. But she obviously heard what the man said about
the President being shot?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. There is no doubt in your mind she heard that?

Mr. McWATTERS. I wouldn't think so because when she got up and stated
she wanted to get off----

Representative FORD. Was she any further from the man who made this
statement about the President being shot than the man who was sitting
in the second cross seat?

Mr. McWATTERS. She was closer to the man actually than the man that got
off with her was.

Representative FORD. How many feet or how much difference?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the lady in other words, from the door here, it
is just two cross seats, and two seats where you sit sideways and then
the two seats in which he would be back here.

Representative FORD. Could you diagram that as best as you can?

Mr. BELIN. Congressman, we have a diagram. We have a picture of the
side of the bus.

Mr. McWATTERS. Right here.

Representative FORD. Sit down.

Mr. McWATTERS. You can see it from this point right here, in other
words. You see this cross seat, in other words, these first two right
here, the driver's seat, you see the first two seats there, in other
words.

Representative FORD. Could you sit down and mark it?

Mr. McWATTERS. This is the inside, let's see, this is the driver right
here. Here is your cross seat right here. Here, about back here, is
where the lady got off who was sitting on this seat.

Representative FORD. Will you mark that with an "L"?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, right here.

Representative FORD. Where was the man in the first cross seat sitting?

Mr. McWATTERS. Right here is the first. Right here is where the man
that was sitting, got off, in this seat right here, I believe it is.

Representative FORD. Will you mark that "M" where the man who was
sitting also got off who got the transfer?

Mr. BALL. Maybe we had better use a black pen that will show better on
that glazed surface.

Representative FORD. This is where the man was sitting who you issued
the transfer to at the same time the lady was issued the transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. And the teenager was sitting in what seat?

Mr. McWATTERS. Right here.

Representative FORD. Will you mark that "O"?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. Where was the man standing who came to the bus and
said the President had been shot?

Mr. McWATTERS. Right here.

Representative FORD. On the step?

Mr. McWATTERS. On the step. I guess, I presume this would be the second
step there. To the best of my recollection he stepped up on the first
step.

Representative FORD. Mark that "P."

Mr. McWATTERS. "P."

Representative FORD. Now, after the man who was standing at "P" said
the President was shot, what did the lady do who was sitting in "L"?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the lady, she had a suitcase sitting right there
beside me and she left. When the lady got up and said she would like to
get off the bus, and that she was going to walk to the Union Station
and asked me if I would give her a transfer in case that I caught up
with her, and asked me if I would pick her up.

Representative FORD. You gave her a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. What happened?

Mr. McWATTERS. She got off and by the time when she was talking to me
that is when he got up, this gentleman here in the seat got up, at seat
"M" got off. In other words, the door was never closed of the bus from
the time the gentleman stepped up in the door of that there, in other
words, when he said what he did, and got on back in his car, in other
words, the lady got off, and the man got off, too, both at the same
stop.

In other words, the bus hadn't moved at that stop.

Mr. BALL. I would like to mark this as the next exhibit, Commission's
exhibit, which will be the diagram of the bus with the initials "M,"
"O," "L," "P," will be marked as Commission's Exhibit 373.

Representative FORD. It will be so admitted.

(The diagram referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 373 for
identification and received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. And a photograph of the interior of the bus, I would like to
have marked as 374.

And a diagram of the bus itself showing front and side as 375.

(The photograph and diagram referred to were marked Commission Exhibits
Nos. 374 and 375, respectively, and received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. I will hand you a photograph of the exterior of the bus.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; in other words, that is the same bus number.

Mr. BALL. That is right.

Mr. McWATTERS. That is the bus it was.

Mr. BALL. That is the bus. Number----

Mr. McWATTERS. 433.

Representative FORD. So admitted.

Mr. BALL. These are all admitted.

Now, we have this map which is Commission's Exhibit 371. Can you show
me your starting point which is where you started your time on Elm and
what street?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is Elm and St. Paul.

Mr. BALL. Will you mark an "X" there with your black pen, or let's take
red pen this time for you, on this same map, here it is right there,
that is where you commenced your time, is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Put an "O" there.

Mr. McWATTERS. Put an "O" here.

Mr. BALL. Just circle that intersection.

Mr. McWATTERS. O.K.

Mr. BALL. Now, you went along Elm, westerly along Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right----

Mr. BALL. Put a "P" about the place where the man knocked on the window
of your door of your bus and got on. Here is Griffin.

Mr. McWATTERS. This is Griffin right here, mark that with a "P".

Mr. BALL. And put an "R" at the place where the man got off the bus.

Mr. McWATTERS. Let's see.

Mr. BALL. Here is Lamar.

Mr. McWATTERS. Here is Lamar here. I want to find Poydras.

Mr. BALL. That is right in here.

Mr. McWATTERS. That would be, in other words, about the center here
would be, in other words, a little bit closer to Lamar than----

Mr. BALL. Put an "R" there to indicate the approximate position where
he got off.

"O" is where you started, so you had better raise those up to Elm. The
place he got on and the place he got off.

Perhaps, if you would just draw a line up and put your "R" it would be
easier.

Mr. McWATTERS. On Griffin here now that is where you want----

Mr. BALL. Where he got on, wherever it was.

Mr. McWATTERS. Is that where you want the "P"?

Mr. BALL. That is where he got on?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. O.K. right here.

Mr. BALL. And where he got off "R".

Mr. McWATTERS. That is a very short block right in between Poydras and
Lamar here.

Mr. BALL. All right.

Now, let's use the map here. You made your start at St. Paul and Elm
didn't you, and went west.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Now, you picked up a man who knocked on the window of your
bus at a place in the street that was not a bus stop, is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. And its approximate location was where?

Mr. McWATTERS. At Griffin Street.

Mr. BALL. And you have marked that as "P"?

Mr. McWATTERS. Marked that as "P".

Mr. BALL. That same man stayed on your bus until you got to what
location

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the location was between Poydras and Lamar Street.

In other words, I would say closer to Lamar than to Poydras.

Mr. BALL. At that point he got off the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. He got off the bus.

Mr. BALL. And you gave him a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. And you have marked that "R", is that correct?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, yes.

Mr. BALL. There is another map I would like to show you that hasn't
been marked yet as a Commission Exhibit, and I will have that marked as
376, a map of Dallas.

You have already marked on this map, haven't you, or it has been marked
in advance then by someone.

(The map referred to was marked Commission's Exhibit No. 376 and
received in evidence.)

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Now, take a look at this map and tell me if that map, the
blue line on the map, indicates your route on that day, where you
started in northeast Dallas?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is the original starting line there.

Mr. BALL. What is the street?

Mr. McWATTERS. I believe--I can't even see that small print on that.
That is Ellsworth and Anita, that is where it is coming back there.

Mr. BALL. Ellsworth and Anita, and then you proceeded downtown along
that course, did you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. This is Lakewood shopping center.

Mr. BALL. Do you have an alternative route through there?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, in other words, that is where the main thoroughfare
starts right there at Gaston Avenue. Gaston right here which is the
main street when you leave this shopping center.

Mr. BALL. You went down Gaston to Pacific?

Mr. McWATTERS. Went down Gaston to, let's see this is Hawkins Street
right here.

Mr. BALL. Then you went left on Hawkins to Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. To Elm Street, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then you went on Elm.

Mr. McWATTERS. Went from Elm to, this would be Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. Turned on Houston Street viaduct?

Mr. McWATTERS. Left on Houston Street.

Mr. BALL. To Marsalis?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, this is the Houston Street viaduct and
this is Marsalis where you turn and come off Houston Street viaduct.

Mr. BALL. Then you go south how far?

Mr. McWATTERS. Go south all the way to, let's see, it is Ann Arbor.
This is all Marsalis right here.

Mr. BALL. A straight run south?

Mr. McWATTERS. Straight run.

Mr. BALL. Then you make a turn and go back?

Mr. McWATTERS. I make a turn, in other words, on Ann Arbor and in other
words, just circle, make a loop, just circle right around this little
shopping center here.

Mr. BALL. And go back.

Mr. McWATTERS. And right back down Marsalis.

Mr. BALL. Marsalis is how far from Beckley?

Mr. McWATTERS. Marsalis is, let's see----

Mr. BALL. This is Beckley here?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You can count the streets there, can you?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, it would be seven blocks.

Mr. BALL. Seven blocks, Beckley is seven blocks west of Marsalis, is
that correct?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Your bus line doesn't run down Beckley?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. It doesn't run seven blocks, close to Beckley? Have you seen
this? Here is Beckley and here is Marsalis, the bus line.

Is there a bus route on Beckley?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; there is.

Mr. BALL. Can you get a bus that goes down Beckley some place around
Houston and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; the bus comes, the Beckley bus comes in on
St. Paul and Elm, in other words, at the time that I was, before we
started, in other words, that is where the Beckley bus enters Elm
Street there and then he goes the same route through town.

Mr. BALL. Same route you go down to the Houston viaduct?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes. In other words, after the Book Depository down
there, he goes straight on.

Mr. BALL. Let me ask you this: The Beckley bus, the bus that will take
you south on Beckley, has a starting point the same place as yours at
St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. St. Paul, in other words, the time element is the same.
In other words, he comes in there.

Mr. BALL. Then that Beckley bus goes west on Elm the same as your bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. But instead of turning south on the Houston Street viaduct
the Beckley bus goes straight west on Elm, doesn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. Can you show us the bus stop for the Beckley bus on this
Commission Exhibit No. 361?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, yes; his last bus stop would be right here at the
corner of----

Mr. BALL. Let's put a mark on this. Here is a red pencil, and put a
mark on this in red and show us the place where the Beckley bus would
stop.

Mr. McWATTERS. It would stop--in other words, we consider this corner
of this intersection right here, any letter or what.

Mr. BALL. Just put a rectangular mark about the size of a bus
indicating bus stop--take black ink and indicating a place where the
bus would stop.

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, the bus would stop along in this place
right here.

Mr. BALL. All right, now that is bus stop for Beckley bus.

Mr. McWATTERS. That is bus stop for Beckley bus.

Mr. BALL. Northeast corner Houston and Elm.

Mr. McWATTERS. Northeast corner of Houston and Elm.

Mr. BALL. The Beckley bus goes on across directly in front of the Texas
School Book Depository Building?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. As your bus gets into another lane of traffic and does not
stop at Houston and Elm and makes a turn south on Houston.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Then the Beckley bus stop, the stop of the Beckley bus, which
is in black ink on the northeast corner of Houston and Elm, we will
mark that with a big "B" which stands for Beckley bus.

Representative FORD. How long have you been on this run that you had
the day of November 22?

Mr. McWATTERS. I worked this run for, I would say, this is the second
year. This makes 2 years that I worked this.

Representative FORD. Two years consecutively?

Mr. McWATTERS. 2 years consecutively that I have been on this run and
worked it.

Representative FORD. So you would be familiar with the route?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; just like I say, I worked it, this is the
second year that I have worked the same, in other words, the same
hours, and the same route.

Representative FORD. How many hours a day do you work this route?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, now, this one particular route right here, I work
it only 2 hours and 35 minutes.

Representative FORD. Each day?

Mr. McWATTERS. Each day.

Representative FORD. How many days a week?

Mr. McWATTERS. 5 days, Monday through Friday. And after that, in other
words, I work on another, a different bus line.

But this one particular one here is just 2 hours and 35 minutes each
day.

Representative FORD. When you say a different bus line, you mean the
same company but a different route?

Mr. McWATTERS. A different route.

Representative FORD. You would be familiar with the time schedules and
all of the stops on this particular route from your 2 years' experience?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. May I ask a question?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Have you testified that you saw this passenger whom
you later recognized in the lineup, get on the bus in the vicinity of
Murphy Street--is Murphy Street on your right?

Mr. McWATTERS. Murphy Street is the street that, in other words, that
comes in.

Senator COOPER. Does it run into Elm Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. It runs into Elm Street, it dead ends, in other words,
into Elm Street.

Here is Field Street, in other words, across this intersection and we
stopped across the intersection of Field, and Murphy Street comes in to
the intersection at about where the bus stops, in other words, where
Field Street stops and I guess that Griffin is the next small street
that comes in just, it is just a short distance below.

Senator COOPER. Well, did the passenger that you have testified about,
and whom you stated that you later identified, did he get on in the
vicinity of Murphy Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Murphy Street--you proceeded from Murphy Street toward
the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Is that correct?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Senator COOPER. Was the passenger that got on near Murphy Street the
same passenger that you later have testified about who told you that
the President had been shot in the temple?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, they told me later that it was, but at the time
they didn't tell me.

Senator COOPER. Who didn't tell you?

Mr. McWATTERS. The police didn't.

Senator COOPER. When you say this passenger got on near Murphy Street,
was there anything about him that caused you to take notice of him
particularly?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, no, sir. I wouldn't say there was. He was, I would
say, he didn't have on no suit or anything, he had on, I believe, some
type of jacket, cloth jacket.

Senator COOPER. What caused you to remember him getting on?

Mr. McWATTERS. What caused me to remember?

Senator COOPER. Yes; at the time he got on.

Mr. McWATTERS. Because, the reason I remembered exactly because I
didn't put out but two transfers, and that, in other words, from where
he got on and everything, I didn't have but one, there wasn't but one
man on the bus and that was the teenage boy, when he got on the bus, in
other words, when he got off, he was the only man except the teenage
boy who was on the bus at the time.

Senator COOPER. Now was this man that you saw got on the bus the same
one who told you that the President had been shot in the temple?

Mr. McWATTERS. The man who got on the bus now?

Senator COOPER. Yes. The man to whom you have just referred as getting
on the bus near Murphy Street.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Is he the same man who told you that the President had
been shot in the temple?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Who told you that?

Mr. McWATTERS. A man in an automobile in front of me, in other words,
that was sitting in a car come back and told me.

Senator COOPER. Told you what?

Mr. McWATTERS. That the President had been shot, that he had heard over
his radio in his car that the President had been shot.

Senator COOPER. I think you have testified that someone, some passenger
on the bus, in response to a question that you had asked, "I wonder
where they shot the President" said, "They shot him in the temple."

Mr. McWATTERS. Oh, that was now, that was after we had done, that is
when I turned on Houston Street, the conversation with the teenage boy.

Senator COOPER. It was the teenage boy who told you that?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it was the teenage boy, sitting on his right
side of the side seat there, the one that I conversationed with about
the President being shot in the head or the temple, I don't remember,
but the teenage boy was the one.

That was after the man that already got off that had boarded my bus up
around Griffin there.

Senator COOPER. Then the one who told you the President had been shot
in the temple was not the one you later identified in the police lineup?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. This probably has been testified to, but where did the
man that you later identified in the police lineup get off the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Got off between Poydras and Lamar Street.

Senator COOPER. Was that after you crossed over the viaduct or before?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; that was before I crossed over.

Senator COOPER. When did the teenage boy get off the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. He got off at Oak Cliff, I believe. He got off at
Marsalis and Brownley.

Senator COOPER. Was that after the bus had crossed the viaduct?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is after the bus had----

Senator COOPER. Past the Texas Depository?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is about 3 or 4 miles out in the Oak
Cliff section where the teenage boy got off of the bus.

Senator COOPER. From the time the man got on the bus, which you later
identified in the police lineup until he got off, had you noticed him,
had you looked at him again?

Mr. McWATTERS. Had I looked at him again?

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. Not until just like I say he was sitting--I was talking
to this teenage boy and he was sitting right behind this boy, but I
didn't pay him any particular attention, to the man.

Senator COOPER. You saw him get on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Did you see him get off?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes; I gave him a transfer when he got off the bus,
the same place that was, the same place I was stopped where the man
come back and stepped up in the bus and told me what he had heard over
his radio in his car, the same place that the lady got off, with a
suitcase, is the place that the man got off.

Senator COOPER. The man you later identified in the police lineup?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct; yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Did you pay any particular attention to him when he got
off?

Mr. McWATTERS. Not no more than I did than, I think, when he got on.

Senator COOPER. Do you remember anything about his clothes or his
general appearance in any way?

Mr. McWATTERS. Just like I say, I remember he had on, to me he had on
just work clothes, he didn't have on a suit of clothes, and some type
of jacket. I would say a cloth jacket.

Senator COOPER. I believe that is all.

Mr. BALL. You didn't--as I understand it, when you were at the police
lineup, you told us that you didn't--weren't able to identify this man
in the lineup as the man who got off, that you gave the transfer to.

Mr. McWATTERS. I told them to the best of my knowledge, I said the man
that I picked out was the same height, about the same height, weight
and description. But as far as actually saying that is the man I
couldn't----

Mr. BALL. You couldn't do it?

Mr. McWATTERS. I wouldn't do it and I wouldn't do it now.

Mr. BALL. You signed an affidavit for the Dallas Police Department, do
you remember that?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I will show you a copy of it, we can get the original if you
want, but there is a copy of it, a picture taken of it.

Will you read it, please?

(At this point, Representative Ford withdrew from the hearing room.)

Mr. BALL. This document, I would like to have marked as 377, at this
time, Commission Exhibit, with the understanding that we may substitute
the photostat for the original.

Senator COOPER. Very well; let it be substituted. It has been
identified, and will be identified.

Mr. BALL. Yes, it will be; I will identify it for the record as a
photostat of an affidavit of Cecil J. McWatters made before Patsy
Collins, Notary Public of Dallas County, Tex., November 22, 1963.

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 377, and
received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. Now, having read that, first of all, does that look like your
signature, Mr. McWatters?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it does.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember the circumstances under which you made that
affidavit?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I just told them the best I could remember.

Mr. BALL. I am showing this to you for the purpose of refreshing your
memory.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I know.

Mr. BALL. I know it has been several months.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I know what you mean.

Mr. BALL. And sometimes when you see something that you signed before
it refreshes your memory.

Mr. McWATTERS. It sure does.

Yes, that is what you mean, I know what you mean, I said that looked
like the man I saw.

Mr. BALL. In this affidavit, it says, it mentions the fact that when
you went to Marsalis and picked up a woman.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. You asked her if she knew the President had been shot, you
told us about that a few moments ago.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. She thought you were kidding, and you told her, "I told her
if she didn't believe me to ask the man behind her, that he had told me
the President was shot in the temple."

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was the man, was that the teenager?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, sir, that was the teenage boy. In other
words, he was, I would say, around 17 or 18 years old.

Mr. BALL. You said here, "The man didn't say anything but he was
grinning."

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you think that happened?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, when the lady asked him, he just kind of grinned,
in other words, and she said, "This is not a grinning or laughing
matter," or something to that effect I don't remember just exactly what
she did say.

Mr. BALL. Now you told them at that time you didn't know where you let
this man off.

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, I didn't at that time, I didn't know
where he got off.

Mr. BALL. You told us a few moments ago you thought he got off another
place.

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, sir.

Mr. BALL. What was that place?

Mr. McWATTERS. He got off at Brownley, because the man rode with me the
next day.

Mr. BALL. You went out there the next day, did you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. With an FBI man or a Dallas policeman?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, I mean----

Mr. BALL. The same teenager?

Mr. McWATTERS. The same teenager rode with me the next day.

Mr. BALL. And you noticed he got off there?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, and I noticed, and I asked him, like I told him, I
said that I was--I thought that, you know, that he was, when he first
got on down there, I says, "From all indications, we had you kind of
pinpointed as the man who might have been mixed up in the assassination
and everything." And----

Mr. BALL. Do I understand the day after you made the affidavit, this
would be the 23d of November?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. That this same teenager got on your bus again?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, he got on.

Mr. BALL. And you noticed where you let him off?

Mr. McWATTERS. I noticed where I let him off, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Is that the reason that today you remember he got off?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is it today I remember, just like I say, I remember
I talked to him the next day, and he told me where he got on, and he
told me where he got on, and where he got off and where he lived, and,
you know that----

Mr. BALL. Has he been on your bus since?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. He has?

Mr. McWATTERS. He has rode with me since.

Mr. BALL. Yes. I see.

Did you give him a transfer that day?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, because he gets on and he lives within about two
blocks of the busline, in other words, where he gets off.

Mr. BALL. Do you know this boy's name?

Mr. McWATTERS. I believe his name is Milton Jones.

Mr. BALL. Milton Jones?

Mr. McWATTERS. Milton Jones. I don't believe I know where he lives, but
I pass where he lives. But he told me his name was Milton Jones and he
told me he was 17.

Mr. BALL. Did he ever tell you where he works?

Mr. McWATTERS. He told me that, I believe, he goes to school half a
day, believe he said and I believe he goes home and he has a part-time
job, but he never did state where he works.

Mr. BALL. Did he tell you where he went to school?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; he never did tell me where he went to school.

Mr. BALL. Or where he worked?

Mr. McWATTERS. Where he worked, either one.

Mr. BALL. You notice in the affidavit there it says, "This
man"--referring to the man who was grinning----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. "This man looks like the No. 1 man I saw in the lineup
today."

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Who was the No. 2 man you saw in the lineup on November 22,
1963?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say, he was the shortest man in the
lineup, in other words, when they brought these men out there, in other
words, he was about the shortest, and the lightest weight one, I guess,
was the reason I say that he looked like the man, because the rest of
them were larger men than----

Mr. BALL. Well, now, at that time, when you saw the lineup----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Were you under the impression that this man that you saw in
the lineup and whom you pointed out to the police, was the teenage boy
who had been grinning?

Mr. McWATTERS. I was, yes, sir; I was under the impression----

Mr. BALL. That was the fellow?

Mr. McWATTERS. That was the fellow.

Mr. BALL. You were not under the impression then that night when you
saw the lineup that the No. 2 man in the lineup was the man who got off
the bus, to whom you had given a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is what I say. In other words, when I told them,
I said, the only way is the man, that he is smaller, in other words,
he kind of had a thin like face and he weighs less than any one of
them. The only one I could identify at all would be the smaller man on
account he was the only one who could come near fitting the description.

Mr. BALL. Let me ask you this, though. Did you tell them the man, the
smaller man, you saw in the lineup, did you tell them that you thought
he was the man who got off your bus and got the transfer or the man who
was on the bus who was the teenager who was grinning?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I really thought he was the man who was on the bus.

Mr. BALL. That stayed on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. That stayed on the bus.

Mr. BALL. And you didn't think he was the man who got off the bus and
to whom you gave a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. At that time you didn't?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is why I say I pinpointed that transfer on that boy
as far as that is concerned. But at first, just like I say, I really
thought from the height and weight of the two men, I mean was just
like I say, was both of them were small. In the lineup they had, in
other words, bigger men, in other words, he was the smallest man at the
lineup.

Mr. BALL. We have got--we have this diagram that you have already drawn
of the bus which has several initials on it. Could you tell me where on
the bus this lady sat who told the teenager it was no grinning matter?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, now, that is, in other words, I don't think at
that time--now this teenager was still on the bus near, but I had a
couple of more passengers on there, I believe I had two women on there,
but I can't recall just, when I picked her up where she sat down on the
bus.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember you said to the woman, "Look at that man
behind you?"

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, she was standing up here at the fare, paying fare.

Mr. BALL. And the teenager was where?

Mr. McWATTERS. He was sitting right here.

Mr. BALL. At the place "O", is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, at the place "O".

Mr. BALL. I see.

Mr. McWATTERS. That is where the conversation was going on.

Mr. BALL. Mr. McWatters, that affidavit you have there, will you look
at another item you have there?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. "Today, November 22, 1963, about 12:40 p.m., I was driving
Marsalis Bus No. 1213."

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. First of all, you have referred to that as another bus,
Munger Bus, is that the same bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; in other words, that number there is my run
number right here on my card.

Mr. BALL. I understand that, but do you call that run the Marsalis run
as well as the Munger run?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. Well, here you can--let me show you here on
this schedule right here, Marsalis, Ramona, Elwood and Munger.

Mr. BALL. Can we take this and have a Xerox----

Mr. McWATTERS. You can just take the whole thing.

Mr. BALL. All right. We will have a Xerox of this and mark it 378, a
Xerox copy.

Will you identify that document and tell me what it is?

(The document referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 378, for
identification.)

Mr. McWATTERS. This is a schedule, I will just say a bus schedule.

Mr. BALL. That is for the Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger run?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. Run 1213. Is this the run schedule that was in effect on
November 22, 1963?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is correct.

Mr. BALL. It shows here at St. Paul you were to leave at 12:36; is that
correct?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. We will make a photostat of that and we will give you back
the original.

Mr. McWATTERS. You can keep that if you want to. They made another copy
of it.

Mr. BALL. All right, then, we will keep this as an original.

Can this be introduced into evidence, Senator?

Senator COOPER. Yes, let it be made a part of the evidence.

(The document heretofore marked for identification as Commission
Exhibit No. 378, was received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. I have a few more questions to ask you, a few more questions,
Mr. McWatters.

Let's look again at this affidavit.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. "I picked up a man on the lower end of town on Elm around
Houston," as I remember you didn't stop at Elm and Houston; you stopped
at Record and Houston for a pickup.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember having picked up any man around the lower end
of town at Elm around Houston?

Mr. McWATTERS. Elm and Houston?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. No, no, sir; I didn't pick up. I made a statement here I
picked up----

Mr. BALL. Take a look at it, "I picked up a man on the lower end of
town on Elm around Houston."

Mr. McWATTERS. No, I didn't. I picked--"I picked a man up at the lower
end of town at Elm," no, sir, I didn't pick up no man.

No, I was tied up in traffic there. Market Street is the--I must not
have read that very good when I signed that, because I sure didn't. No,
I didn't.

Mr. BALL. Did you pick up a man at Record and Houston?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You didn't?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; that is not even no stop.

Mr. BALL. In other words, this statement is not an accurate statement?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, sir, because in fact that day the police
wouldn't let nobody, in other words they run them buses through but
they wouldn't let nothing stop there, in other words.

Mr. BALL. Let's get back to that lineup.

Did you pick out one man or two men that night as people you had seen,
as a person you had seen before?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I picked out, the only one that I told them it was
the short man that I picked out up there.

Mr. BALL. And you thought he was the teenager whom you described?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, first that is what I thought he was.

Mr. BALL. Now you have named him Milton Jones.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, he was----

Mr. BALL. Now you realize you were mistaken in your identification that
night?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. As I understand it, neither then nor now are you able to
identify or say that you have again seen the man that got off your bus
to whom you gave a transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I couldn't. I could not identify him.

Mr. BALL. This Beckley bus that we talked about, remember the one that
has the starting point at St. Paul and Elm----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. The same as your bus, the Marsalis bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. What is the difference in the time run, what time does the
Beckley bus leave--let me withdraw the question.

Your bus leaves St. Paul and Elm at 12:36, scheduled to leave there as
of November 22d?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Using the same schedule, can you tell me at what time around
12:30 or so that the Beckley bus would leave Elm and St. Paul and
proceed westerly on Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. He is scheduled in there the same time as I am, 12:36.

Mr. BALL. 12:36. Was that bus in the line?

Mr. McWATTERS. No. In other words, that bus was behind me, in other
words, because when I got there as a general rule, when we pull up
there every day, in other words, I am coming in one direction and he
is another, in other words, most every day, we will pull up at this
intersection at the same time.

Now, whichever way the light changes is who gets, in other words, who
gets in front of who. But at that day, I am sure that I was ahead of
the Beckley bus.

Mr. BALL. You are sure you were ahead of it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Because there wasn't another bus in front of me. I was
the first bus down there that was tied up in there in the traffic.

Mr. BALL. Did you see the Beckley bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Mr. BALL. You don't remember whether he was behind you or not?

Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether he was behind me or not.

Mr. BALL. Can you transfer from your bus to the Beckley bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; sure can.

Mr. BALL. Any particular transfer point?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, there are particular transfer points, but we don't
question anybody within the downtown section with a transfer.

Mr. BALL. If you gave a transfer to your bus, then that transfer would
be good on a Beckley bus any place along Elm, wouldn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, it sure would.

Mr. BALL. Up to the place where you change courses?

Mr. McWATTERS. It would be accepted; yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Your course is westerly on Elm, is identical with that of the
Beckley bus between St. Paul and Houston, isn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. And from that point you go south on Houston, and the Beckley
bus continues west on Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct.

Mr. BALL. So that would be a normal transfer point, wouldn't it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Houston and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. That would be a transfer. In other words, now, like I
say, Lamar is the general transfer point of where all the buses cross.

Mr. BALL. Now, that night of the lineup, when you identified this one
short man----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. As being probably the teenager that had been on the bus----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was there anything unusual in the conduct of anyone in the
lineup?

Mr. McWATTERS. No.

Mr. BALL. Did any man in the lineup talk more than anyone else?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, I believe they had a guy that asked them their
address, and they said, "address" and I don't know, he asked them, I
believe he asked some of them where they lived or some or them where
they worked, or I don't remember just what, in other words, he asked
some enough, every one of them to say some few words.

Mr. BALL. You could hear them talk?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; you could hear them talk.

Mr. BALL. Was any one man boisterous, mean, loud, anything of that sort?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, not that I could tell any difference. They all
talked to me as, in other words, you just asked them their name and
address. If they did, I didn't pay any attention to it.

(At this point, Representative Ford entered the hearing room.)

Mr. BALL. This is Exhibit No. 376 that I will show you again. You have
indicated on the map the course of your bus south on Marsalis. Is there
any other bus route that goes south on any street east of Marsalis?

Mr. McWATTERS. You mean that crosses it this way?

Mr. BALL. No, goes south.

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, let's see.

Mr. BALL. Is there a main highway called Denley? Is there a bus route
on Ewing?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir. Bus route on Ewing.

Mr. BALL. That goes south on Ewing?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Does that bus come anywhere near, does that bus run down Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where does it turn to get to Ewing?

Mr. McWATTERS. In other words, it turns, it goes just like the Marsalis
bus here goes, until he gets----

Mr. BALL. Let's start up at Elm here, Elm and Houston now. Does the bus
that goes down Ewing come west on Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Does it go by St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Have a starting point there?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; it is a final point for it right there.

Mr. BALL. And it goes west on Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Where does it turn off Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. It turns the same place as I do, in other words.

Mr. BALL. South on Houston?

Mr. McWATTERS. South on Houston.

Mr. BALL. And then does it go across the Houston Street viaduct?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Then it turns on, how does it get onto Ewing?

Mr. McWATTERS. It comes on out to Marsalis to, let's see, I have to
find the zoo. That is where it turns right there at the Marsalis
Park, and turns and goes over to Ewing, let's see, what is the name
of that--this bus turns to the left off Marsalis there, it is a
park--there is a big expressway there and it is the first street when
it crosses over the expressway where it turns off of Marsalis on
Opera. The name of the bus is Ramona, it is the same, in other words,
it is the same line as this other one.

Mr. BALL. As I understand it now the bus that goes down Ewing comes off
the Houston Street viaduct as far as, comes down the Houston Street
viaduct as far as Marsalis, does it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; and it goes south on Marsalis.

Mr. BALL. It goes south on Marsalis?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right.

Mr. BALL. And it turns over to Ewing, that would be east on Ewing?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes; that would be east.

Mr. BALL. At or about what point?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, in other words, that is the Marsalis Zoo is where
it is, after you cross the expressway there, it is the first street,
Opera is the name of that and it goes right down to Ewing.

Mr. BALL. Then at the corner of 11th, at the intersection of 11th and
Marsalis both buses travel the same route?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; they sure do. Both buses travel the same route
to Marsalis and the Ramona bus on that part travel the same route.

Mr. BALL. Probably on the same route.

Now, I show you this document which is the bus schedule of
Marsalis-Ramona-Elwood-Munger, and it shows you leave St. Paul at 12:36
and you arrive at Lamar 12:40.

The bus transfers are punched you told me for 1 o'clock. We have a
transfer here that you have seen or we will show you in a few minutes
as soon as it gets here, which has a punch mark of 1 o'clock. You told
Senator Cooper that you usually punched within 15 minutes of the time
you reached the transfer points?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. If that is the case, what----

Mr. McWATTERS. You mean why did I have it punched at 1 o'clock?

Mr. BALL. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. Because I punch it p.m. In other words, I have a punch,
I am going to Lakewood, I mean I am going Marsalis and I am going back
Lakewood, so I just take me two books of transfers. Instead of punching
one of them a.m. and one p.m. I just punched them p.m.

Mr. BALL. Do you punch within 15 minutes of the time you reach the
transfer points?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is the way that the transfers are supposed to be
cut.

Mr. BALL. Well, if you reach Lamar, if you were to reach Lamar at
12:40, what time, according to the rules should you punch it?

Mr. McWATTERS. I should have punched it at 12:45.

Mr. BALL. At 12:45?

Mr. McWATTERS. But I would have to punch one book a.m. and another one
p.m., so I just punched both of them p.m.

Mr. BALL. In other words, what you do is punch on the hour rather than
the 45 and 15 minutes usually?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. In other words, your usual practice is not to punch on the
15-minute interval, is that right, but to punch on the hour?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say within the closest of the hour
like that, in other words.

Mr. BALL. Suppose today you were wanting to punch some transfers at the
end of the line and you knew you were going to get to Lamar at 12:40.
Would you punch--what would you punch it?

Mr. McWATTERS. I work that run all the time, I punch at 1 o'clock every
day. As I say I worked it 2 years and as I say in order to keep from
punching one of them a.m. and one p.m., for the difference in the hour
there, I just punch them p.m.

Mr. BALL. I don't quite understand that. Doesn't your p.m. start at
after 12 o'clock?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, the way the transfers are there, did you notice
how they was, they run them until--see how 12:45 there, in other
words, that is what they use that up to a.m. in other words.

Mr. BALL. It is 12:45 a.m., it runs up to a.m.

Mr. McWATTERS. That is what they run it to a.m. In other words, after
12:45 or in there, in other words, everything is punched p.m.

Mr. BALL. In other words, everything in the hour from 12 on is punched
a.m., the day time, 12 to one is a.m., 12 to 12:45, for that hour, a
transfer good in that hour is punched a.m., is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, it can be punched a.m. up to, just like 12:45.

Mr. BALL. And the next punch is 1 o'clock and that is p.m.?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is p.m.; yes, sir. That is the way they have them.

Representative FORD. The day that you punched this particular transfer,
November 22?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Representative FORD. You punched them the same that day as you did
every other day?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right. Every day, in other words, I just punch
them p.m. I punch them p.m., and in other words, so it will be just a
straight cut across it.

Representative FORD. Is that the usual practice for all bus drivers to
use this practice?

Mr. McWATTERS. The practice they are supposed to cut them within the
quarter of the hour, but in other words, I just have been working that
run and I just, it is p.m., and I just make one trip one way and one
back the other, and so I--all I carry are two books of transfers and so
I just punch two books p.m., using one going one way at 1 o'clock and
the other coming back at 2.

Representative FORD. This is the practice you have used for 2 years
approximately?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is right, when I worked that run, in other words,
when I am going one way at 1 o'clock, coming back from the other end of
the line I set them at 2. I am back in there at, my next trip I am back
in there at Lamar Street, I think it is 1:38 but I always just set them
at 2 o'clock.

Mr. BALL. We have a couple of more pictures here. 378 and 379 which
are pictures of the interior of the bus--Nos. 379 and 380. (Picture
marked for identification as Commission Exhibit No. 374 is the same as
Commission Exhibit No. 379.)

I will first show you 379. Is that a picture of the bus from front to
rear of your bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is the front and that is the rear.

Mr. BALL. Here is 380, is that a picture of the bus taken from the
front taken looking towards the rear?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. I offer these in evidence, too.

Representative FORD. So admitted.

(The pictures referred to were marked Commission's Exhibits Nos. 379
and 380 and received in evidence.)

Mr. BALL. I have here an exhibit which I would like to have marked as
381 which can be identified as a transfer issued by Dallas Transit
Company, Friday, November 22, 1963.

Do you identify it, can you tell me, if you have ever seen that
transfer before?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, that is my punch mark right on that there; p.m.

(The transfer was marked Commission Exhibit No. 381 for identification.)

Mr. BALL. You issued it, did you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Tell me when you issued it, on what run?

Mr. McWATTERS. I issued it on Marsalis and Munger line at I would
say, around to the best of my knowledge it would be around 12:40 or
somewheres in that vicinity on November 22.

Mr. BALL. And it has your punch mark, has it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is my punch mark.

Mr. BALL. Identify it punched in the p.m. section?

Mr. McWATTERS. Of the Lakewood column here on the transfer.

Mr. BALL. When did you punch it exactly? Where were you when you
punched it?

Mr. McWATTERS. I punched it before I left the end of the line, in other
words.

Mr. BALL. This is number 004459, is the transfer number. Entitled "The
Shoppers Transfer." Every transfer has a separate number, has it?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; everyone has a separate number.

Mr. BALL. What we would like to do is mark a photostat of the transfer
as 381A and substitute the photostat and we can return the transfer to
the custody of the FBI.

Representative FORD. The exhibit will be admitted.

(The photostat referred to was marked Commission Exhibit 381A and
received in evidence.)

Representative FORD. How many of those transfers did you issue on this
particular run?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well----

Representative FORD. Up to the time you passed the Texas School
Depository.

Mr. McWATTERS. I really don't know because I didn't, see. I didn't know
anything--I didn't put out any--most of the transfers that you put out
at this time or that time of day are for elderly women which get the
shopper's transfers, in other words. It has got a line there, and it
entitles them to a free ride back to where they came from, in other
words, and that time of the morning, because when I get downtown, in
other words, you can catch a bus at Elm Street going to any place that
I would go without having a transfer, in other words.

Representative FORD. Would you have any recollection of how many
passengers you picked up from the beginning of the line to the time
that this man got on at the middle of the block on Elm Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, I don't--I recall that I didn't have very many
passengers that day, because I figured that everybody had done gone to
town to see the parade, to see the President, and it just wasn't what
few passengers I recall was mostly elderly women that was going into
town.

I don't recall just how many of them I did have on the bus.

Representative FORD. But you did have these two men, the teenager and
this other young man?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that were on the bus.

Representative FORD. And you very specifically recall giving a transfer
to this woman with the suitcase and the man who was in the second seat
on the right-hand side?

Mr. McWATTERS. On the right side that got off. In other words, to the
best of my knowledge that is the only two transfers that I put out
going through town that I can recall at all, I mean, because I don't
recall putting out any more transfers than those two that I put out
when I was held up there in traffic.

Mr. BALL. Mr. McWatters, on this transfer is the name of Shopper's
Transfer.

Does that have any significance?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is what I was telling him. In other
words, if they want a Shoppers; well I put my punch mark in that
Shoppers there, which they cannot use it for a transfer, in other
words, any more than other than--all the stores, most of them in
downtown Dallas, if you buy as much as a dollar's worth between the
period of ten and four in the afternoon they give you a little white
slip which entitled you to ride what is called the Shopper's Pass. It
rides you back, but in other words you have to, a passenger has to, ask
for it in other words.

When they say a Shopper, you take a punch and punch your punch mark
where it says Shoppers, but they are not supposed to use the transfer
then to transfer to another bus. They are supposed, in other words,
where it is punched in the store, get it exchanged for their return
fare.

Mr. BALL. In other words, all your transfers have on them printed the
word "Shopper's Transfer"?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; they do.

Mr. BALL. And in order to make it a Shopper's Transfer so that the
transfer can be exchanged for a merchandise coupon to ride home, it has
to have your punch in the Shopper's Transfer area, is that right?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is correct, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you know, did you remember, an elderly woman getting on
your bus some place on Elm after you left St. Paul?

Mr. McWATTERS. Not that I recall.

Mr. BALL. Do you remember when this man, do you remember when this man
knocked on your window, and you opened your bus and let him on, some
place around Murphy or Griffin and Elm, that an elderly woman got up in
the bus and moved?

Did you see that or anything like that?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, I don't recall.

Mr. BALL. Do you know whether or not you left an elderly woman off down
around in the Oak Cliff area some place?

Mr. McWATTERS. The best I can recall I had two or three or four elderly
women, the best I can remember on the bus when I left town, but I don't
recall where any of them got off.

Mr. BALL. Do you know a woman named Mary Bledsoe?

Did you pick anybody up at St. Paul and Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. I really don't--I really can't recall whether I did or
not.

Mr. BALL. I have no further questions.

Senator COOPER. I would like to ask a few, if I may.

Am I correct in saying that the direction of your bus at the time of
these events you have testified to it was going west on Elm Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. West on Elm. In other words, west, the streets of Dallas
all run east and west.

Senator COOPER. But when you got to Houston Street, then you turned
south?

Mr. McWATTERS. I turned south, that is correct.

Senator COOPER. Did your bus pass the Texas School Book Depository?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well----

Senator COOPER. I mean does it pass it directly?

Mr. McWATTERS. It doesn't pass it directly, no, sir. In other words,
where I turn to the left on Houston Street, the book store is across on
the opposite corner.

Senator COOPER. Now, as you reached Lamar Street, or did you reach
Lamar Street on that date before you passed near the Texas School Book
Depository?

Mr. McWATTERS. You mean--yes, I have to pass Lamar Street before I get
down to there.

Senator COOPER. Now, this first affidavit you made on November 22----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Which has been referred to in the testimony.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. It stated in this affidavit that, "I picked up a man on
the lower end of town on Elm around Houston."

Now, you picked up a man at that time it would have been after you
passed Lamar Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. It would have been after I passed Lamar.

Senator COOPER. The remainder of the affidavit, which has been made a
part of the testimony----

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Refers to that you picked up a woman and you asked her
if she knew the President had been shot, and then the man--you asked
her then to speak to the man behind her.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. "Who said the President was shot in the temple." Now,
then, this incident that you testified to in this affidavit, was after
you had passed Elm Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; that is right.

Senator COOPER. Was the man that you were talking about in this
affidavit the teenager?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. At the time this affidavit was made, were you asked
about any other man who may have been on the run that day at that time?

Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether I was or not.

Senator COOPER. What was it then that caused you at some time later to
remember that another man had got on the bus near Murphy and had left
the bus, as you have stated in 2 or 3 blocks in the vicinity of Elm
Street?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, just like I say, the best I can remember is the
man, I believe in fact beside the boy, I believe he was the only man on
board the bus. After I got to recall, in other words----

Senator COOPER. But what I am asking you is what it was that caused you
to remember the teenager at the time you made this affidavit on the
22d, and what it was that, why it was that, you didn't at that time
speak of the other man who had got on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is what I say, it just didn't--it just doesn't
register, I don't know.

Senator COOPER. Were you asked whether or not any other man was on the
bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. I don't remember whether I was or not.

Senator COOPER. When was it that you remembered about the second man
being on the bus, the man that you now state got on around Murphy
Street and got off at Elm?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well. I just studied and tried to remember everything
that I could. In other words, I still, you know, just try to see if I
could remember any incidents or anything that was said or done that I
hadn't thought of and everything.

Senator COOPER. I think you stated you did not give the teenager any
transfer?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, I don't--no.

Senator COOPER. Was the fact then that you were shown a transfer by the
police that called your attention to that?

Mr. McWATTERS. I guess that would probably be----

Senator COOPER. Another man?

Mr. McWATTERS. That would probably be the reason.

I don't know of any other reason that it would be unless it was the
transfer, that I can recall.

Senator COOPER. Are you absolutely certain that you did see another man
on that bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Do you mean the day?

Senator COOPER. A man other than the teenager?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir; I picked up a man.

Senator COOPER. Where?

Mr. McWATTERS. Along about Griffin Street that knocked on the door of
the bus.

Senator COOPER. Is that near Murphy?

Mr. McWATTERS. That is near Murphy, in other words, Murphy is over here
zig-zags, Griffin zig-zags across to Murphy.

Senator COOPER. Why was it then that when you made this affidavit, you
wouldn't remember that a man knocked on the door to get in the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Just like I say, I guess it never did dawn on me until
I just got to thinking about it and everything, and I had this boy, I
mean was the one I was referring to in that affidavit right there.

In other words, he was just kind of a slight build, so far as him and
Oswald, I guess they probably somewhere in the same size, I don't know.
But I was mistaken in that, in other words, that was the boy right
there----

Senator COOPER. Did the police ask you if any man other than the
teenager was on the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. I don't recall whether they did or not.

Senator COOPER. Did you tell the police at that time on the 22d or the
Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 23d about a man knocking on the
window and wanting to get into the bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, I believe I did.

Senator COOPER. What is it about this transfer that makes you know that
it was a transfer which you issued?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, you look at that old punch mark, I guess as many
times as I have punched it----

Senator COOPER. Does each--does each driver have a different punch?

Mr. BALL. When you weren't here he showed us his punch and he punched
it for us. He has got his punch.

Mr. McWATTERS. Each driver has a different punch. They all are
registered. In other words, regardless of how many there are--that is
my punch right there--there is some shape or form different, just like
I say the superintendent has every man's name and a punch mark right on
down, in other words, so when----

Senator COOPER. Do you know whether the punches are different in the
shape that they make?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; no, sir; I don't know anything about that. I
know----

Senator COOPER. What you are saying is, then, you have punched so many
of these transfer that you recognize your own punch?

Mr. McWATTERS. I can recognize my own punchmark. I don't think there is
supposed to be another----

Senator COOPER. Is there anything else on the transfer which indicates
that it was one which would be issued on your bus?

Mr. McWATTERS. Well, except only where it is punched--in other words,
I come off of Lakewood Boulevard there where that would be the only
distinction right there, is the punchmark and the name of where I have
it punched there.

Senator COOPER. Did anyone tell you, either the police or the FBI or
any other officer or any other person, tell you at the time you made
your first affidavit or later that there was another man reported to
have been on your bus and got off?

Mr. McWATTERS. I don't recall.

Senator COOPER. Have you ever reported to the police the fact that you
have carried as a passenger since November 22d the teenager whom you
have now identified as having the name of Milton Jones?

Mr. McWATTERS. Did I ever report it to the police?

Senator COOPER. Yes.

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Have they ever been back to talk to you any more about
this?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. About this matter?

Mr. McWATTERS. They have never been back to me. The only time they have
talked to me----

Senator COOPER. Did you ever see----

Mr. McWATTERS. I beg pardon?

Senator COOPER. You saw--was any of the men in the police lineup ever
identified to you as being Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWATTERS. Any men in the----

Senator COOPER. Yes, I think you saw the men in the lineup, didn't you?

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes.

Senator COOPER. Before you were asked to select a man in the lineup,
did the police or any officer identify any one of them as bearing the
name of Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; they never stated anything.

Senator COOPER. Later was he identified to you in any way?

Mr. McWATTERS. Was he identified to me?

Senator COOPER. As being Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, they didn't tell me as far as saying, mentioning any
name Lee Oswald, it was never, the name Lee Oswald, I don't believe was
ever mentioned while we was back there.

Senator COOPER. Did you ever see this same man you call No. 2 in the
lineup again--did you ever go back there after that time and see this
same person again?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir.

Senator COOPER. Identified as No. 2?

Mr. McWATTERS. No, sir; I never did go back any more, that was the only
time I was ever there was the one on November 22, about 6 something in
the afternoon.

Senator COOPER. Have you seen photographs of a man who is named in
those photographs as being Lee Oswald?

Mr. McWATTERS. Have I saw them?

Senator COOPER. Yes, sir.

Mr. McWATTERS. Yes, sir.

Senator COOPER. Well, now, you have seen this young man, Milton Jones,
several times