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Title: Warren Commission (14 of 26): Hearings Vol. XIV (of 15)
Author: Commission, Warren
Language: English
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Italics are represented by _underscores_.



    INVESTIGATION OF

    THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

    HEARINGS
    Before the President’s Commission
    on the Assassination
    of President Kennedy

PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a
Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating
to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and
S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon
the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine
witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas


_Volume_ XIV


UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.


U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S.
Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402



    PRESIDENT’S COMMISSION
    ON THE
    ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY


    CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_

    SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL
    SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER
    REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS
    REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD
    MR. ALLEN W. DULLES
    MR. JOHN J. McCLOY


    J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_


    _Assistant Counsel_

    FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS
    JOSEPH A. BALL
    DAVID W. BELIN
    WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr.
    MELVIN ARON EISENBERG
    BURT W. GRIFFIN
    LEON D. HUBERT, Jr.
    ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr.
    WESLEY J. LIEBELER
    NORMAN REDLICH
    W. DAVID SLAWSON
    ARLEN SPECTER
    SAMUEL A. STERN
    HOWARD P. WILLENS[A]

[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the
Department of Justice.


    _Staff Members_

    PHILLIP BARSON
    EDWARD A. CONROY
    JOHN HART ELY
    ALFRED GOLDBERG
    MURRAY J. LAULICHT
    ARTHUR MARMOR
    RICHARD M. MOSK
    JOHN J. O’BRIEN
    STUART POLLAK
    ALFREDDA SCOBEY
    CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr.

Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be
found in the Commission’s _Report_.



Preface


The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume XIV:
Curtis LaVerne Crafard, Wilbyrn Waldon (Robert) Litchfield II, Robert
Carl Patterson, Alice Reaves Nichols, Ralph Paul, George Senator, Nancy
Perrin Rich, Breck Wall (Billy Ray Wilson), Joseph Alexander Peterson,
Harry N. Olsen, and Kay Helen Olsen, all of whom were friends,
acquaintances, employees, or business associates of Jack L. Ruby; Earl
Ruby and Sam Ruby, two of Ruby’s brothers, and Mrs. Eva Grant, one of
his sisters; Jack L. Ruby; Dr. William Robert Beavers, a psychiatrist
who examined Ruby; and Bell P. Herndon, an FBI polygraph expert who
administered a polygraph test to Ruby.



Contents


                                                      Page
    Preface                                              v

    Testimony of—
      Curtis LaVerne Crafard (resumed)                   1
      Wilbyrn Waldon (Robert) Litchfield II             95
      Alice Reaves Nichols                             110
      Robert Carl Patterson                            126
      Ralph Paul                                       134
      George Senator                                   164
      Nancy Perrin Rich                                330
      Earl Ruby                                        364
      Eva Grant                                        429
      Sam Ruby                                         488
      Jack L. Ruby                                     504
      William Robert Beavers                           570
      Bell P. Herndon                                  579
      Breck Wall (Billy Ray Wilson)                    599
      Joseph Alexander Peterson                        615
      Harry N. Olsen                                   624
      Kay Helen Olsen                                  640


EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

    Crafard Exhibit No.:                              Page
      5202                                               1
      5203                                              56
      5204                                              62
      5205                                              63
      5206                                              63
      5207                                              64
      5208                                              65
      5209                                              65
      5210                                              65
      5211                                              66
      5212                                              66
      5213                                              67
      5214                                              68
      5214-A                                            68
      5215                                              68
      5216                                              68
      5217                                              68
      5218                                              68
      5219                                              68
      5220                                              69
      5221                                              69
      5222                                              76
      5223                                              76
      5224-A                                            76
      5224-B                                            77
      5225                                              77
      5226                                              82
      5227                                              92
      5228-A                                            93
      5228-B                                            93
      5229-A                                            93
      5229-B                                            93
      5230                                              94

    Grant Exhibit No.:
      1                                                430
      2                                                436
      3                                                436
      4                                                437

    Herndon Exhibit No.:
      1                                                586
      2                                                588
      3                                                589
      4                                                591
      5                                                591
      6                                                592
      7                                                593
      8                                                593
      9                                                594
      10                                               595
      11                                               596
      12                                               597

    Nichols Exhibit No.:
      5355                                             111
      5356                                             112

    Patterson Exhibit No.:
      5357                                             128
      5358                                             133

    Paul Exhibit No.:
      5319                                             162
      5320                                             163

    Rich Exhibit No.:
      1                                                344
      2                                                345
      3                                                346
      3-A                                              346
      4                                                346

    Ruby (Earl) Exhibit No.:
      1                                                412
      2                                                413
      3                                                423
      4                                                424
      5                                                425
      6                                                425
      7                                                425
      8                                                427
      9                                                427

    Ruby (Sam) Exhibit No.:
      1                                                488
      2                                                489
      3                                                490
      4                                                492

    Senator Exhibit No.:
      5400                                             303
      5401                                             304
      5402                                             319
      5403                                             319



Hearings Before the President’s Commission

on the

Assassination of President Kennedy



TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD RESUMED

The testimony of Curtis LaVerne Crafard was taken at 9:15 a.m., on
April 9, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs.
Burt W. Griffin, Leon D. Hubert, Jr., and Albert E. Jenner, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.


Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to start out by stating for the record, for your
purposes, also, Larry, that we are continuing this deposition under the
same authority which it was commenced yesterday morning, and I know
that there is no mistake on your part that the oath which you took
before is still in effect.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What we propose to do today is to go through in some
detail some of the papers which have come into our possession. The
first thing I want to ask you to look at is a notebook, which is a
blue cover spiral notebook entitled, “Penway Memo Notebook” and it has
Commission Document No. 717, but for the record I will clarify this
that this is not the same number as the numbers that we are using in
the deposition. I will give it a deposition number in just a minute. I
am going to mark this for identification on the front cover—I am going
to mark this on the inside of the front cover at the bottom in pen,
“Washington, D.C., April 9, 1964, Exhibit 5202, Deposition of C. L.
Crafard,” and I am going to sign it with my signature, Burt W. Griffin.

Mr. HUBERT. For the purpose of the record, count the number of pages
and half pages. Perhaps it is a good idea to initial the bottom of each
page with your initials.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. In addition to the front cover, what I am going
to do is number the pages at the bottom, and I will put my initials on
each. I will make it clear that I am numbering only the separate sheets
of paper. I am not numbering each side of the paper. We can refer to
these pages as the numbered side and the reverse side for purposes of
discussion.

Mr. HUBERT. Why don’t you have the record show that pages——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 10 is a blank. Page 11 is a half sheet of paper which
has been torn off and there is nothing written on that page. Page 14 is
approximately a third of a sheet of paper, the bottom two thirds having
been torn off, and it does contain penciled writing on it. Page 15 is a
full sheet. Page 16 is approximately a half sheet with penciled writing
on it. Page 17 is a full sheet. There is a total of 18 pages including
half sheets and third sheets of paper in the notebook, and there is a
blue hard cardboard front cover and a buff or dirty brown back cover
which is also hard cardboard. Do we have photostatic copies of it?

Do you want to put that in the record?

Mr. HUBERT. I just wanted to get them numbered the same way. We can do
that later.

(The document was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5202 for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Commission
Exhibit 5202, and ask you, Larry, if you recognize that.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; this is a notebook I used to keep phone numbers when
I was working for Mr. Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you buy that notebook yourself?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I bought this myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how soon after you went to work for Jack Ruby did you
buy that?

Mr. CRAFARD. About a week after I went to work for him. You look real
close on the front you will see my name on the front of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you write that in there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you read what you see on there?

Mr. CRAFARD. C. L.—Larry Crafard, Carousel Club. Its got 1312½ Commerce
Street, Dallas, Tex. It’s real vague on there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is an impression that simply comes through as
actually scratches on there and doesn’t come through in any color?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; it doesn’t come through in any color.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you bought this book, did Jack Ruby give you any
instructions with respect to maintaining the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just use it to put phone numbers down in, addresses of
people that called in wanting to talk, called in, put the phone number
down so I’d know how he could get in touch with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the notations that appear in there follow any sequence
either chronological or by topic or anything of that sort?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe they do, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to take the time to look at it and see if
you recognize any sequence in the entries?

Mr. CRAFARD. The first portion of the book on the first page is more or
less numbers which was used quite frequently.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to page 1?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; page 1.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you want to look over on the back of page 1; the
reverse side?

Mr. CRAFARD. It is also numbers that were used quite frequently.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, look at page 2.

Mr. CRAFARD. Page 2, I believe, was an address on the top of page 2. It
was an address that I wrote down for Mr. Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What about the remaining entries on there. Were they
numbers that were used frequently?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to look at the reverse side of page 2?

Mr. CRAFARD. There is only one number on there, on the reverse side
of page 2 that we used very frequently. That was Little Lynn’s phone
number.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The front part of page 3?

Mr. CRAFARD. From the numbers on there, as far as I know, there was
only one of them that was used very frequently. It was Mickey Ryan. On
the reverse side is just more or less notations that were taken down
from phone calls. Then on page 4 is just numbers that were taken down
from phone calls. The first number on page 4, Norma Bennett, that was
that one girl I was trying to tell you about yesterday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. She was the waitress?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; she was the one I started saying about that Jack had
tried to get to work as a stripper to get her to work for this friend
of his, Ralph Paul.

Mr. HUBERT. What you mean is that during your testimony yesterday you
remembered her name as Norma but you did not remember her last name?

Mr. CRAFARD. I did not even remember her first name, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I thought you mentioned that her name was Norma.

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you now say that the person you were
testifying about yesterday who tried to get work and who was ultimately
placed at work by Ruby with Ralph Paul was Norma Bennett?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And the entry on page—what is it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Page 4.

Mr. HUBERT. Refreshes your memory to that extent, right?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. On the reverse side of page 4 is just notations.
No. 5 is just notations, with some things that Jack had to do on that
day. Then the reverse side of 5 is just notations, phone calls. No. 6
is some draws that I took on different days. The reverse side of No.
6 is just notations, mostly for phone calls that was taken. No. 7 is
just notations with the exception of the top number, the top name, Joe
Roskydall, who was a friend of mine while I was previously living in
Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, in the pages that you have gone through so far,
have you noticed any handwriting in that book that is not your
handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you go through this, if you do recognize any
handwriting that is not yours, would you point that out to us?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. On the reverse side of page 7 there is just
notations from phone calls. The bottom half of that page written in ink
isn’t my handwriting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize whose handwriting that is?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to recognize Jack Ruby’s handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I am not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to recognize Andy Armstrong’s handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I would recognize Andy’s writing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that appear to be Andy Armstrong’s handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to look at page 8?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is my writing on page 8. That is just phone numbers,
addresses that was taken down that Jack Ruby give me to write down,
addresses that he wanted to keep. On the reverse side of that is a
couple of phone numbers. I don’t recall what they were for. Page 9 I
don’t have any idea what that was for. I don’t recall it all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your handwriting on page 9?

Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like my handwriting, yes. The reverse side of
page 9 is blank. Page 10 is blank. A portion of a page, page 11, is
blank.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 11, incidentally, is a half sheet of paper. Do you
recall in using this notebook whether you had occasion to rip out
portions of the notebook?

Mr. CRAFARD. A couple of times I took a piece of paper and put a phone
number on it for Jack. Page 12 is just a few notations for some things
that I had to buy for myself. The reverse side of page 11 is——

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the reverse side of page 12?

Mr. CRAFARD. Page 12, yes; is just notations. Page 13 is a couple of
notations.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 13 is in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. This number in East Waco may not be mine. I don’t
know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to what appears to be 3902——

Mr. CRAFARD. East Waco.

Mr. GRIFFIN. East Waco, and that is written in pen?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I don’t recall I ever wrote it down, and it doesn’t
look like my handwriting.

Mr. HUBERT. Page 10?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; page 13.

Mr. CRAFARD. Page 13. The reverse side of that page is my handwriting.
It is just notations. Page 14 is some notations I took while I was
trying to make arrangement to ship a dog to California. It is about a
third of a page.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you read page 14 for us? It is a little difficult to
read.

Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not even sure what it is, myself. I can make out the
name Frank Fisher underneath, but that is all. I believe the rest of it
is something, Boeing Insurance it looks like.

Mr. HUBERT. How is it spelled?

Mr. CRAFARD. B-o-e-i-n-g. The reverse side of page 14 is just
notations. 15 is just notations. I don’t remember the bottom portion
of that number wrote in dark blue ink.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It begins with “WE-7-3037”?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What page?

Mr. CRAFARD. Page 15.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then there are three more lines which appear to read on
one line, “063” on the next line “Herman” printed, and the letters
“Flore” and then those are crossed out and written above it in longhand
is the word “flowers”. And then directly under “Herman Flowers” is in
longhand “from Wax-a-hatchy.” Do I understand that you do not recognize
that writing, for example, “from Wax-a-hatchy”, as being in your
handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. “Wax-a-hatchy”, I believe, is my handwriting. The rest of
it I don’t recognize. On the reverse side of that is figuring. That is
definitely not mine. Page 16 is just notations. That is about 2/3 of a
page. The reverse side of that page is just notations, people calling
in wanting reservations. Page 17 is just notations in my handwriting.
The reverse side of page 17 is just notations. Page 18 is just
notations in my handwriting. The reverse side of that is just notations.

Mr. GRIFFIN. With the exception of the pages in that book which you
have indicated are blank, every page in the book is filled, which means
that there are only a total of 18 pages in the book altogether. Do
you recall from looking at this notebook whether when you bought the
notebook it had more pages in it than appear to be there now?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it did have. I’m not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall ripping out any of the pages?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall ripping out any full pages; no, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether in making the entries in that book
you used pages in a consecutive fashion or whether you made entries on
pages at random so that there would be many blank pages interspersed
among pages that had writing on them?

Mr. CRAFARD. Most of it, I believe, was—from the first portion of the
book, from the front to the back was pretty well in rotation. If I turn
it over to the back and maybe flip over four or five pages and make a
notation in it, as I recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you mean by that that you would leave some blank pages
at the back?

Mr. CRAFARD. As I recall, there was blank pages left spaced in the back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So your testimony would be that the book as you see it now
is not in the same condition as it was in when you left Dallas on the
23d of November?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else about that book which appears to be
different from the way that you remember it when you left Dallas on the
23d?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can notice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any general questions, Mr. Hubert, that you
want to ask about the book?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I would like to. What was the purpose of keeping that
book?

Mr. CRAFARD. I used it, Jack would get calls he wanted to keep the
number of and I’d write the number down in this book and later transfer
to another book, and then I would use it if a phone call come in
somebody wanting to talk to Jack I’d put the number down where he could
get in touch with them at so I could give him the number to call.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you testified that the first three or four pages
were made when you first bought the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And were in fact numbers that you knew or he told you would
be frequently called, is that right?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; the first two pages on both sides.

Mr. HUBERT. He gave you those numbers?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you were to keep the book in order to advise him
currently, that is to say, daily, of the calls and messages and so
forth that came in?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. I suggest to you, therefore, that that book, in order to
serve the purpose that you stated, it was being kept for, would have
been used by making the entries in sequence as they came up and not
skipping around?

Mr. CRAFARD. I used the front of the book for numbers that Jack give me
that he wanted to keep. Then I’d use the back of the book for people
that called in for reservations at the club or he’d give me some
numbers he wanted to use right then, but he wouldn’t want to keep them,
or something of this sort.

Mr. HUBERT. My point is that when you first started to use the book did
you just put the first series of entries other than those numbers that
were frequently called just at random on any page, or would you put it
in the next available page?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would usually be on the next page. Sometimes I would
skip maybe two or three pages.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any reason for doing that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I’d want to have the pages there, a couple of blank pages
there, like this one here which should have been torn out. I don’t know
why I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. What page are you referring to?

Mr. CRAFARD. The reverse side of page 12. It is a list of some
sandwiches I went out and got for a couple of the girls that worked at
the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you suggesting to us that the book served several
functions and that there were different portions of it for each
function?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that the back of each page was used for
the function of putting down reservations.

Mr. CRAFARD. I might use two or three pages right in a row for that, or
I might take a page right out of the middle of the book.

Mr. HUBERT. And leave it in the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. Usually I tore the page out. The pages I transferred over
and when I got the book full I’d just throw the book away and get
another book.

Mr. HUBERT. Which book are you talking of?

Mr. CRAFARD. These notebooks like this.

Mr. HUBERT. You had more than one?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I had one other notebook similar to this, the
same type of a notebook as this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did with that notebook?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. I thought you testified that this was the one that you
started off with.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. There was another one that you bought later?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I used it quite frequently. I’d tear the pages out
and write down the reservations a lot, most of the time. I had this
book and when I started putting reservations down I thought I’d get
another book and use it for that and then I’d have this one just for
the phone numbers and I wouldn’t mess up the reservations.

Mr. HUBERT. Then the other book, when it was used up, as it were, was
thrown away?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have been through it. What we want to find out is
if there is any way that one can tell by looking at the book about the
date when any particular entry was made.

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you saying that you skipped around arbitrarily?

Mr. CRAFARD. It might be 2 or 3 days before I’d put anything down in
this book in a row, maybe. Personally, I couldn’t say anything about
the dates when I made the entries.

Mr. HUBERT. Suppose that you hadn’t used the book for a couple of days
and then you found occasion to make an entry. Would you make that entry
right following the last one you had made or would you make it at some
other page?

Mr. CRAFARD. Several times I would flip over in the book to the next
empty page, put down an entry, and later I’d take the first few pages
that I had left out, left where I could and there would be a number
Jack would want to keep and I’d write the number down. These numbers on
the first couple of pages here, I think the first page is all numbers
that I got the first day and then the others is numbers I added to it
later.

Mr. HUBERT. Then are we to understand that there is no possibility of
determining the sequence of events recorded in that book by referring
to the order in which they appear in the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, an entry on one of the later pages might
have been made prior to the one on the earlier page?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you testified, Larry, that you would sometimes flip
the book over and make entries on the back of the pages, and as you
have just done in front of us, you have turned the book over on its
face to the back of the book. Do I understand your testimony to mean,
then, that you worked, for some of your notations you worked backward?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From the back of the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But am I correct in understanding that the pages in the
front of the book which have writing on the back side of the numbered
page were not entries that were made in this fashion that we have just
been describing but followed in the ordinary sequence that you would
have made in working from the front of the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. The first two pages in the book, as I
stated before, are numbers that he wanted to keep. I would fill the
front of the page and then turn the page over and fill the reverse side
of that same page.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you go through there, would you leaf through
those pages from one on, and tell us what the first page is that you
recognize that wasn’t made by working from the front of the book and
filling in sequence the back of the page after you had filled the front?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it would be page No. 4.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the back of page 4 has entries on it which might have
been made because you were working from the back of the book forward?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, I believe so. I believe that is where I made those.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You also explained to Mr. Hubert that you would transfer
some of the entries from that book into another notebook.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you describe the other notebook for us?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was a Penway notebook, but it was a larger notebook. It
was a memo pad, I believe is what it was. Was wide enough that it had a
dividing line down the middle of the page, a red dividing line down the
middle of the page.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who purchased that notebook?

Mr. CRAFARD. I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long after you purchased this small Exhibit 5202
did you purchase the notebook that you have just been describing?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was about 3 or 4 days later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that book kept physically?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly on Jack’s desk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you leave that notebook at the Carousel when you left?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any entries that were made in that notebook
which were entered directly into that notebook without being placed in
some other notebook first?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there were a few in the last couple or few pages
in the notebook.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The entries that were in this larger Penway notebook
which you have been describing, did they include all of the telephone
numbers that are in this small Penway notebook which we have before us?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, not all of the numbers. There were numbers—the numbers
that Jack wanted to keep and used quite frequently.

I believe all of the numbers on both sides of the first two pages were
in that book along with some other numbers that he had given me that he
wanted to keep that I wrote down there in the front.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were all the numbers that were placed in the large Penway
notebook placed there at Jack’s instructions or did you place some of
them in there on your own initiative?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was numbers that Jack wanted to keep and he asked me to
write down, he had asked me to get another book and write them down in
it so he could have them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Up to the time that you bought this larger Penway
notebook, had Jack been maintaining a notebook?

Mr. CRAFARD. Very seldom that he used a notebook. He had a book full of
numbers he very seldom used it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he keep that book of phone numbers?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he had one on his desk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what kind of a book that was?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was a regular phone number and address book.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think you would recognize that book if it were
shown to you again?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, do you recall at this point if there were other
entries in this small Penway notebook which you have identified as 5202
which you do not see in there now?

Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn’t say definitely that there was; no, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to refer now to the inside of the front cover.
At the top of the inside of the front cover there is a number which
appears to be “261-TA3-8101.”

Is that the way you would read that number?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would read it 261-7A3-8101.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that number?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, can you tell us what the number is underneath that?
Read it for the record.

Mr. CRAFARD. FE 5-3366.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that number?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a number under that, 612. Do you have any idea
what connection that has?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you see the name “Jeff,” which is written under 612?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who that might refer to?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t recall who it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the next number under Jeff?

Mr. CRAFARD. TA 1-1782.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That “T” is written the same as what you thought was a No.
7?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In 261——

Mr. CRAFARD. Just a second. Half the time I’ve got to figure it out,
myself.

Yes, that would be TA there, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it what you are indicating is that you have a
tendency to make your “T’s” look like “7’s.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize this number TA 1-1782?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on the top of page 1 there is some sort of a word
written.

Mr. CRAFARD. The word “save.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the significance of that?

Mr. CRAFARD. That I want to save that piece of paper, that particular
sheet of paper, that I don’t want to destroy it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that the notation “Vegas Club” with its number
under it is the telephone number of the Vegas Club.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the next number is written “Jack’s home” and under
that “Whitehall 15601.”

That is Jack Ruby’s telephone number at home?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell us what this next notation “Buddy” Fort Worth——

Mr. CRAFARD. Buddy, Fort Worth, phone No. AX 3-0118 with the words
“twist board” underneath it is the fact that this Buddy was a gentleman
Jack called in reference to the twist board. I believe that is one of
the gentlemen had something to do with making the twist boards in Fort
Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what Buddy’s last name was?

Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not positive. I believe it was Buddy Heard.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your understanding as to Buddy Heard’s connections
to the twist boards?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that he had something to do with the production
of the twist board in Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. What leads you to believe that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Because of the way it is set up here, he give me the
number, he give me the twist boards. It was something to do with either
the production or the selling of the twist boards.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, there is a line, rather a vacant space under “twist
boards.”

I would just as soon that you not make entries in the book.

After that blank line there is some writing “Fort Worth” and some other
things that follow.

Would you read that into the record, and then tell us what the
significance of that is?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would be the word “Fort Worth” phone No. “ED-51266”
with a dash, and the words “give to Mike Shore only.” That would be a
number where Jack Ruby could be reached and he didn’t want me to give
the number to anyone but Mike Shore.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why he didn’t want to give it to anyone but
Mike Shore?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Mike Shore a person that Ruby dealt with regularly?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he talked to Mike Shore two or three times a
week on the telephone.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have occasion to meet Mike Shore?

Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not sure, sir. I believe he was in the club. I’m not
positive.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have occasion to meet Buddy Heard?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall where Mike Shore lived?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you to state again what this entry in connection
with Mike Shore pertained to?

Mr. CRAFARD. The number would be a number where Jack Ruby could be
reached but he didn’t want me to give the number to anyone but Mike
Shore.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever call that number, ED-51266?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the number ED-51266 entered into this book the first
day that you got the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was within the first 2 or 3 days, I’m positive of that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have occasion to call Jack Ruby at that number?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall. I don’t remember making a call at that
number.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack say anything to you which would indicate how
often he visited the premises that that telephone number was located at?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a specific recollection of the conversation
that you had with Jack which resulted in making this entry in the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was over the telephone, and he called in, and
I believe I said something about Mike Shore had called wanting to talk
to him, and he give me that number and told me to give it to Mike Shore
only.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate whether he would be at that number only
that day or for a short period of time, or whether he could be reached
there every day, or what?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was just a couple hours that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, under the name “Mike Shore only” there is another
line which has no writing on it, and then there is an entry “St.
Charles FL 7-0520.” What is the significance of that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the name St. Charles is the last name of a
gentleman that Jack Ruby knew, but I don’t recall ever meeting the
gentleman or ever calling him to talk to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how that entry came to be put in the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, other than the fact that Jack give me the number. I
believe there is reference to that same number further on in the book.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Perhaps when we get to it we can discuss it at that point.

Mr. CRAFARD. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn over page one then.

There are no further entries on page one, are there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And we will look at the reverse side of page one.

Now, there is a name written here “Abe”——

Mr. CRAFARD. Klinman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How is that spelled?

Mr. CRAFARD. K-l-i-n-m-a-n.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Abe Klinman?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know what his position was or what he done for a
living, but I believe I met him at the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a local Dallas citizen?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this somebody that Jack dealt with regularly?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. Four or five different times that I know of Abe
called the club, and several times that Jack called Abe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a telephone number under there, “RI 8——”

Mr. CRAFARD. “4272.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Abe Klinman’s?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the next line there is something written in there.

Mr. CRAFARD. The word “personal,” the letters “UN,” that is a telephone
No. “UN-3-0400.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whose number is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mr. Earl Ruby’s in Detroit, that is his home phone number.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were at the Carousel, do you recall Jack’s ever
telephoning Earl Ruby or Earl Ruby ever telephoning Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack phoned Earl two or three different times. I don’t
recall Earl phoning Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall why it was Jack called Earl?

Mr. CRAFARD. In connection—the one time that I can really recall was in
connection with the twist boards.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon was that after you went to work for Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that would have been about 2 or 3 weeks after I
went to work for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what do you recall about that telephone call?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just the fact that he told Earl about the twist boards,
and he told him he’d send him a couple of them and some of the
advertisement he had on them, so he could promote them a little bit up
Detroit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you overhear this telephone conversation?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; there was something said about how they was
doing there, how they was selling there in Dallas, and the fact that
Jack thought that they would really go over pretty good up in Detroit,
Chicago, and in that area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is a number under “Earl Ruby, Detroit” is
written under “personal UN-3400” and under “Earl Ruby, Detroit” there
are some other notations. Would you indicate what those are?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would be the No. 313 would be a code number, I believe,
for Detroit. The phone No. “UN 3-5590” which would be the business
number for Earl Ruby, and the words “Cobo Laundry” with the address
“18135 Livernoise Avenue,” Livernoise Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. May I point out for the record that Livernoise is written
on two lines along the right-hand side of the page under the line
which says “Cobo Laundry 18135” on it, and it is bracketed off from a
notation, which is “Ed Pullman” and on the next line “TA-34484.”

Do you recognize the name Ed Pullman?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was a gentleman there in Dallas, I believe, that Jack
called several times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what his dealings were with Ed Pullman?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I do not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line under that telephone number, “UN-3” and
then “UN-3” is scratched out and then on the following line there is a
name written. What is that name?

Mr. CRAFARD. Leona Miller.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was she?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was a girl that called in connection with or
in answer to an ad that Jack Ruby had in the paper for waitresses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So this entry, “Leona Miller” would not represent somebody
whom Jack called regularly?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not to my knowledge; no, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It doesn’t really go with the group of numbers then that
we have been talking about which were sort of permanent numbers?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Ed Pullman though. Would he fall in this
category of people that Jack called regularly?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there is a telephone number under the name Leona
Miller, and then there is a blank line, and there is something written
on the next three lines. What is that on the next three lines?

Mr. CRAFARD. Clark Dotty, I believe it is, D-o-t-t-y.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the telephone number.

Mr. CRAFARD. WH 1-1227.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Clark Dotty?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t; sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the reverse side of page one does it not?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Just before you finish that, let me ask you this. I notice
that there is apparently the name Clark Dotty written out at the bottom
of page one or the reverse of page one, and when it is written the
first time the word “Clark” seems to be written and scratched through
and then Clark Dotty is written again under its number.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Are both of those entries in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why you wrote it twice?

Mr. CRAFARD. About the only reason I can see here would be the fact
that when I wrote it the first time instead of the name Clark I put
some other name down. Then I wrote over it and I couldn’t make it out
so I wrote the name Clark Dotty underneath it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, do you recognize the name Mary Ray?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet Ed Pullman’s wife?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not to my knowledge, no, sir. Not that I can recall I
should say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the top of page 2 there is an entry. Mar-Din Co.
underneath that the name Henry Denture. The address 404 South Well,
Chicago 7, Ill. Phone number HA 7-3172. Do you remember how that entry
came to be made in the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was the number, if I can recall right, Clark called in
connection with the Earl Products Co. There is a company that I believe
Jack said this Mr. Denture and himself had been partners in one time in
Chicago. The company had went broke but they still had the papers and
everything on the company. It had never been dissolved. He was using
this as a name to sell the twist boards under, the Earl Products Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than contacting Henry Denture at the Mar-Din Co., do
you know of any other dealings that Jack had with Mar-Din?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; that I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your understanding that Henry Denture was involved
with Jack in the sale of twist boards?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you have that understanding?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack give me that understanding when he give me this Earl
Products Co. number, this number so I could call the Earl Products Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean the Earl Products Co. was at the same address and
number as this Mar-Din Co.?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; from what I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to ask on
this?

Mr. HUBERT. I understood you to say that Jack wanted to communicate to
the Earl Products Co. the fact that Mar-Din and Henry Denture would be
associated with the twist boards?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Referring to page 2 of Exhibit 5202, I take it that the
first six entries starting with Mar-Din Co. and ending with Earl
Products all relate to the same thing, is that right?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And were all entered about the same time?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I am not clear just what the significance is and I wish
you’d state it again.

Mr. CRAFARD. This Henry Denture, he called, he said it had been checked
with him in this Earl Products before in Chicago and he was using the
Earl Products Co. as a name to sell the twist boards under.

Mr. HUBERT. Henry Denture was?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack Ruby was, and he called Henry Denture in Chicago
about the twist boards.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you overhear the call?

Mr. CRAFARD. I was there when he made the call. I don’t recall just
exactly what was said but it was something about the twist boards.

Mr. HUBERT. And he called a man called Henry Denture?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you why he wanted you to make this entry?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was just a number he wanted to keep.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, could the name Henry Denture be a mistake? Could
the last name really have been Kenter?

Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that?

Mr. CRAFARD. It is quite similar and I could have made a mistake and
put a “D” down in place of a “K.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now after the entry Earl Products Co., there is a line
with nothing written on it, and then there are two names. What are
those two names?

Mr. CRAFARD. Doris Land and Peggy Taylor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall either of those two girls?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they were girls who called in answer to the ad
that Jack was running in the paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the telephone number TA 4-6895?

Mr. CRAFARD. Would be the number where they could be reached at.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now under that there is the name Teddy Walters, and Teddy
is written in longhand and Walters is printed. Are both of those your
handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you recall who Teddy Walters was?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I do not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is a telephone number under that. What is that
telephone number?

Mr. CRAFARD. FE 7-4644.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an entry under that which looks like A. F.
McKnight, with a telephone number LA 6-2251. Do you remember anything
about A. F. McKnight?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Jack called, had a conversation with him a
couple of times on the telephone. Other than that I can’t recall
anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what those conversations were about?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 2 on the front side.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn the page over and ask you to look at
the back of page 2. Now there is a number WH 2-2371. Do you recognize
that number?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; it doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is written in pen and then there is a line with
nothing written on it, and then there is the entry Riverside 7-2362
Earl Products Co. How did that entry come to be put down?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was a local number Jack had me put down for
the Earl Products Co. If I recall right that was the pay telephone of
the Carousel Club, and anybody, he said if anybody called the Carousel
Club asking about this Earl Products Co. or anything about that, to
give them this number to call.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So Jack didn’t want the Earl Products number to be
associated with his personal phone at the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now was there a personal phone at the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just a business phone, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A business phone. What was the number on that business
phone?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember it, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it the same number as on his home phone?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; can I go back a little bit on this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CRAFARD. Going back to page 2 starting with the Mar-Din Co., the
number below that I believe, the HA 7-3172 if I remember right it
seems to me that this number and the address were different. It seems
to me this number was either a Fort Worth or a Dallas number, and
this address up here was just an address where I sent something, or
something of that sort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. CRAFARD. I was thinking about that and it kind of didn’t——

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t think the HA number is a Chicago number?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I believe that is either a Dallas or a Fort Worth
number after I think about it a little bit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are clear that there were two different telephones at
the Carousel Club. One was a pay phone and the other was a business
phone?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that the Riverside number was the business
phone number?

Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an entry, there is rather a line with nothing
written on it after the entry Earl Products Co., and then there is a
name and address and some numbers written; what is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Bill DeMar, Wichita, Kans. The telephone number JA 4-4241.
The telephone number JA 8-6116. Bill DeMar was a comedian that Ruby
had hired to come down to the club, and these are the numbers where
he could be reached. I believe one was a motel number and one was a
business number or something of that sort. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The entries in connection with Earl Products Co. and Bill
DeMar are all written in pencil.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And I want to ask you if these would have followed in
sequence or whether you were making these entries in there because they
were entries which were to be kept or sort of on a permanent basis?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe they follow sequence, I don’t believe the
number of Bill DeMar, numbers would be anything we would keep on a
permanent basis as far as I can recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you also don’t think that Bill DeMar called shortly
after or that number was given to you shortly after the Earl Products
number was given to you so that the two of them were made at roughly
the same time?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive of that, sir. They could have been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you about Bill DeMar. Did Jack have any
business with Bill DeMar other than to hire him as an entertainer?

Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After the entries in connection with Bill DeMar, there is
a line on which nothing is written, and then there is an entry Little
Lynn OP 34, and then 817—JE 4-8525. Do you remember making that entry?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember approximately when that entry was made?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I couldn’t say for dates. It was made about I
believe 2 or 3 days before Jack hired Little Lynn.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how did that call happen to come in?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember how it come about, but he give me the
number so he could have it to call Little Lynn.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack gave you that number or did you answer the telephone
and get that number from a long distance operator?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Jack gave me the number. I am not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after that there are some entries. Some figures
written on the next two lines. Can you tell us what those numbers are?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t know what they mean. There is the number
875, and number 1750. It seems like a hyphen behind the numbers with a
dash, and a three behind that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You haven’t any recollection what that might relate to?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the reverse side of page 2.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn over to page 3. What is the name
written at the top?

Mr. CRAFARD. The top line is “See Paul Lubeachick.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. How does he spell that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that is L-u-b-e-a-c-h-i-c-k, I believe. On the
next line is “Here at 9:30.” That would be that Paul Lubeachick was
going to be at the club at 9:30 and wouldn’t be able to be there too
long and he wanted to see Jack and I was to tell Jack when he called on
the phone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The next entry is also an entry for Bill DeMar.

Mr. CRAFARD. It is Bill DeMar, Evansville, 824 West Idewild Drive, HA
3-7245, and I believe that was Bill DeMar’s home address; I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there is an entry in pen which follows that. What is
that entry?

Mr. CRAFARD. Ruth Shay, Inwood Road, FL 2-5494.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Ruth Shay?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was a girl called in connection with the ad
that Jack ran in the paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she ever hired?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there is a line and the name Mickey Ryan with a
telephone number.

Mr. CRAFARD. Mickey Ryan, DA 4-4378.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a number that was put in there for permanent
reference.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was his home number.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How often did you see Mickey Ryan?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have saw Mickey Ryan probably about eight or nine times
while I was working for Jack. Excuse me please.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.

Mr. CRAFARD. It seems to me that number should have been on the first
couple of pages that wrote down, but it seems like I transferred the
number to the front of the book after I wrote the number down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Mickey Ryan number?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mickey Ryan’s name and number are something that Jack
would keep on a permanent basis?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mickey come at any particular time of the day or night?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; he’d come in sometimes in the afternoon for a
little while and then maybe he would be in in the evening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And would he visit with other people in the club besides
Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. Sometimes Jack wouldn’t even be at the club. He’d come in
and talk to Andrew and I, and just visit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. These eight or nine times that you saw him, were they
spread out over the entire period that you worked there or was it just
in one particular brief period that he came in?

Mr. CRAFARD. Over the entire period of time I was working for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the first time that you met Mickey Ryan?

Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not clear. No, sir; I don’t recall exactly when I met
him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about the first time that you do recall meeting
Mickey Ryan and what happened.

Mr. CRAFARD. The first time I really remember talking to Mickey at the
club I believe he came in one afternoon and I was in the club. There
was a letter that had come for Mickey Ryan to the club and I gave that
to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody else receive mail at the club besides Mickey
Ryan?

Mr. CRAFARD. There was two or three people that had worked at the club
previously that had mail sent to the club after they left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mickey have anything to do with the sale of twist
boards?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Mickey’s relationship with Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know they were just friends.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any view about Mickey as to whether he was a
homosexual?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mickey seemed to be pretty decent guy. As far as I could
figure there was nothing of that sort there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever learn how Mickey met Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mickey have any kind of business dealings with Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned that Jack had a bookkeeper.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what his name was?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But that wasn’t Mickey Ryan?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a friend of Mickey Ryan’s?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, sir. It might have been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what Mickey Ryan’s occupation was?

Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I knew, sir, he was a bartender.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was a club called there a couple of days, a couple of
different times asking for Mickey. I believe it was at the Gun Club
where he went to work. When I first met him he was unemployed and then
he went to work afterwards.

Mr. HUBERT. It was your impression that he went to work as a bartender
at the Gun Club.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You formed that impression from what he told you?

Mr. CRAFARD. When they called they called asking for him and they said
they wanted him in reference to a job, and he said he was trying to get
a job as a bartender.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember his having told you that he had gotten the
job?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; that is the reason I formed the impression that
he had been a bartender.

Mr. HUBERT. He told you so.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I want to go back to that top entry on page 3 “see Paul”——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me finish up on Mickey Ryan a second. Do you know what
kind of a club this Gun Club was?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I had never been there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it just a bar or was it a place where people went to
shoot skeet or trap or something like that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, sir. I believe the call came in as the Hunt
Club or something like that or Hunter’s Club or something of that sort,
the call came in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you are not sure that the name of the club is the Gun
Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you have any idea where that club is located?

Mr. CRAFARD. It is near Dallas somewhere but that is all I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if it is in downtown Dallas or in the
outskirts or what?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was on the outskirts of Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this have been a country club, a golf club of some
sort?

Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, I am finished with that.

Mr. HUBERT. Going to the top of page 3 that entry “See Paul Lubeachick
here at 9:30.” I think you added something to that entry to the effect
that that entry meant that that man was going to be there at 9:30?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. The part you added was that he couldn’t stay very long.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is the impression that I had when I talked to him,
sir. He said something about——

Mr. HUBERT. You have a distinct recollection therefore of that
particular episode and that man?

Mr. CRAFARD. Of the call coming in; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a call?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. The man gave you that name and said that he would be there
at 9:30?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But that he could not wait very long?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was something like the fact that he would be
there at 9:30 and he wanted to see Jack, that he couldn’t stay there
for any length of time.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he came in at 9:30?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall, sir. After the club opened I was too busy
to notice who came in.

Mr. HUBERT. With an entry of that nature isn’t it fair to say that you
would have conveyed that information in its totality to Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you would have told him not merely that the
man was coming in at 9:30 but that he had said he couldn’t wait very
long.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall having done so?

Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not positive, sir. I don’t recall it clearly.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever at any time after that see a man named Paul
Lubeachick?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember, sir. I don’t believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do remember that you told Jack he couldn’t wait
very long?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember Jack’s reaction to that?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe Mickey Ryan and a telephone number under there
is the last entry on page 3.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn over page 3 to the back. There is the
name Stanley Kaufman and a telephone number after that. Did you ever
meet Stanley Kaufman?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall ever meeting him, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who he is?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now was Stanley Kaufman a name that Jack would have wanted
kept on a permanent basis?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line with nothing written on it following the
entry in connection with Stanley Kaufman, and there is a notation
“Wednesday pay bill at phone company.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that something you were to do?

Mr. CRAFARD. Something I was to remind Jack to do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would we be able to date anything in this book from that
entry of Wednesday pay phone bill, for example, if we knew when Jack
paid his telephone bill in October or November? Would we be able to
draw any conclusions as to all of the entries in the book which appear
before that entry “Wed pay bill at phone company?”

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line after the entry in connection with the
phone company, and then there is something written. What is written?

Mr. CRAFARD. Riky Kasada.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And is that somebody’s name?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your spelling of a name that was spoken to you or
did somebody actually dictate that spelling to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is my own spelling.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So it is simply what we would call your interpretation of
the phonetics?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Riky Kasada?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After that there is another name.

Mr. CRAFARD. Scotty Milles, M-i-l-l-e-s.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Scotty Milles, M-i-l-l-e-s?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir, M-i-l-l-e-s.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was he?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was a she. She was the woman who called me in reference
to Mickey on this job.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, she called to inquire about Mickey Ryan?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you remember the conversation you had with her?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she indicate where she was calling from?

Mr. CRAFARD. She said something about a club or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it this Hunt Club or Gun Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any connection between Riky Kasada and Scotty
Milles?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Under the entry reference on Mickey, there is a line and
then there are some figures written there. Do you make anything out of
those numbers?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would those be expenses that you had or money that you
took out of the cash register?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think if you sat here awhile and thought about it
you might be able to make something out of this?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. It might be some bills that I had
paid or something. Maybe some champagne I had bought or something like
that that I had put down, the money I had been given and what I had
spent.

Mr. HUBERT. You are clear though that those figures refer to money?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say so by the way they are wrote down.

Mr. HUBERT. Is the significant point about the way they are written
down that indicates that they refer to money.

Mr. CRAFARD. The number 1420 is wrote down like you write down $14.20.

Mr. HUBERT. By doing what to the 1420?

Mr. CRAFARD. Putting the dot behind your 14.

Mr. HUBERT. You put the decimal?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the way you write money?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you would say that those figures being in your
handwriting would be the way you would write figures concerning money?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back side of page 3. I want to turn to
page 4 then. What is written at the top of page 4?

Mr. CRAFARD. The name Norma Bennett with the number CA 4-2234.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Bennett or Barnett?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is Bennett. As I have wrote it it appears to
be Barnett.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you think the name is Bennett.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now who is Norma Bennett?

Mr. CRAFARD. She is a young lady that called in connection with the ad
that Jack had ran, subsequently came in and met Jack. Jack tried to
talk her to go to work as a stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she ever work for him in any capacity?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of, sir; not around the Carousel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first see her?

Mr. CRAFARD. When she came into the club the day after she phoned.
I believe that was about 4 weeks before President Kennedy was
assassinated.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you talk to her at all?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your conversation with her?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just getting acquainted with her more than anything. She
seemed like a pretty nice girl. We got along pretty well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did she remain in the club that day?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was around the club most of the afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And was Jack there during that period?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack came in after she arrived.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did Jack stay while she was there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he spent a couple of hours around the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any conversation Jack had?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not particularly, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. With reference to the entry on page 4 concerning Norma
Barnett, is there any doubt in your mind that, as it is written, it is
Barnett and not Bennett?

Mr. CRAFARD. No doubt in my mind it is spelled Barnett, B-a-r-n-e-t-t.

Mr. HUBERT. You got that over the phone when she called; is that right?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What makes you think that her name was not really Barnett
but Bennett?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that I already spoke of her as Norma Bennett I
believe when I spoke with her. I recall that.

Mr. HUBERT. Your testimony was that you subsequently met her.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you then learn that her name was Bennett instead of
Barnett?

Mr. CRAFARD. I very seldom used her last name after I met her. I
believe when she introduced herself it sounded to me like she said
Norma Bennett when she introduced herself to Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. Obviously when you heard it over the phone you thought it
was Barnett because that is the way you put it down.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But thereafter you think you learned from her that it was
Bennett?

Mr. CRAFARD. I might have misspelled it to myself or something. I
referred to her as Bennett all the time.

Mr. HUBERT. To whom did you refer as Bennett?

Mr. CRAFARD. Whenever I used her name to Jack a couple of times when we
was talking about her.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever use the name Bennett to her?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall ever using her last name to her, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that you really don’t know what her last
name is?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the next word after CA 4-2234?

Mr. CRAFARD. Waitress.

Mr. HUBERT. And then under that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Judy Armstrong.

Mr. HUBERT. What is under that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Congress, the phone number Congress 9-2576, Carlton, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think those four lines beginning with waitress and
ending up with Carlton, Tex., all deal with the same transaction?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the word “waitress” doesn’t deal with the
direction above it but the transaction below it?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was that, a call from somebody who wanted to be a
waitress?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever meet that person?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall meeting her.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if Jack called her?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know if he called her or not, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; let’s pass to the next entry under that.

Mr. CRAFARD. Excuse me 1 minute, please. It seems to me this Judy
Armstrong was a number that one night one of the girls was sick and one
of the other girls that had the night off and we needed another girl
and this is a girl that had worked for Jack, I believe, and we tried to
call her. I am not positive of that. Or we tried to call her to go to
work or something.

Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying is that insofar as the entry concerning
Judy Armstrong which begins with the word waitress and ends with
Carlton, Tex.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You first testified that you thought that this was a person
answering an ad?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you think that actually you all sought to call her to
work in place of someone who was ill?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the way it worked out she had called in
connection with the ad and we had her number down on the list of girls
to call and one night we needed a girl and we tried to call her and
couldn’t get in touch with her. Tried to call her to come to work and
couldn’t get in touch with her.

Mr. HUBERT. So that the entry on page 4 was actually made as you said
it was?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When she called applying for a job but you have an
independent recollection other than the entry that on some occasion you
called her to just see if she could substitute?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether you reached her.

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall reaching her, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have never met her?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; what about Burt Nelson?

Mr. CRAFARD. Burt Nelson, Chez Femme, the phone number EM 3-6324, and I
don’t know who Mr. Nelson is.

Mr. HUBERT. What is that Chez Femme?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that is a place he worked, I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a place is it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall, sir. I believe it was a clothing store of
some sort.

Mr. HUBERT. A what?

Mr. CRAFARD. A clothing store of some sort, sir, I believe, I am not
positive.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the entry under that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Buddy, hyphenized, Floyd Turner, phone number LY 2-5903,
Tyler, Tex. I don’t remember ever meeting him. I believe Jack referred
to him as Budd Turner though.

Mr. HUBERT. Would that be a call that had come in or a call given to
you by Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure, sir. I believe it was one given to me by
Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about that man?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Never met him.

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear his name spoken other than in this
connection?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s turn over to the next page then which is page 5.
Would you read it because I can’t read your handwriting.

Mr. CRAFARD. Page 5 or do you want to read the reverse of page 4, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I want to read the reverse of page 4 I beg your pardon.

Mr. CRAFARD. It starts with line Linda phone number RI 2-0720, and the
initials R. W. Bowsher.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that those three entries relate to the same
thing.

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe they do, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Then tell us what they do mean independently.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the line DA and the line number is a number
where we could get ahold of this girl Linda, but the R. W. Bowsher I
have no recollection of what it would be.

Mr. HUBERT. Does it seem to be written with a different pen or pencil?

Mr. CRAFARD. The pencil that was used for the word Linda and the phone
number seems to have been sharper than the one used for R. W. Bowsher.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it your custom to separate independent episodes by
leaving a blank line between them?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have done so most of the time; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In this case you don’t seem to have done so.

Mr. CRAFARD. Sometimes I would put them right under something else.

Mr. HUBERT. Anyway your recollection now is that you think the word
Linda and the telephone number under it is independent from the line
that immediately follows which reads “R. W. Bowsher?”

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is Linda?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, sir; I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. You said she was a——

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was more like a girl that called in answer
to the ad we ran in the paper.

Mr. HUBERT. What about R. W. Bowsher, then?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall anything about him.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s pass to the next entry which is separated from R. W.
Bowsher by a blank line.

Mr. CRAFARD. Buddy Heard, Loflin Hotel, phone number KE 2-4672.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t that 71?

Mr. CRAFARD. 71, yes sir. And underneath that the numbers 5336827, and
100 North Florence—and the word “office.” I believe that would be the
fact that Buddy Heard was staying at the Loflin Hotel. The KE number
would be a number where we could reach Buddy Heard. The next number
down would be probably a number for the office. I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. And the telephone for that office.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe would be the 533-6827. I am not positive.

Mr. HUBERT. You think that those five lines beginning Buddy Heard
and ending 100 North Florence—office are all related to the same
transaction?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would believe so; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think they are not related to the line which
immediately follows starting “Burt called?”

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I believe that is something entirely different.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Buddy Heard?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive. I believe I have met him. I am not
sure. But “Burt called” underneath that——

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s not leave Buddy Heard yet. Does the name mean
anything to you at all? You might have some recollection in your mind?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have heard the name mentioned several times but I don’t
know what Heard done for a living. I believe he had something in
connection with the actor’s union. I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t think you have ever met him?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Go to the next entry, then.

Mr. CRAFARD. Burt will call later. You have his home number. I believe
that would be all related.

Mr. HUBERT. Those four lines would be related to one another?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What would be the significance of that?

Mr. CRAFARD. The fact that this Burt called and wouldn’t leave the
number but said that Jack had his home number.

Mr. HUBERT. “You” there refers to Jack, right?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this was a note that was being written so
that when Jack read it if he weren’t there he would know it was written
to him?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is Burt?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall who he was.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. That finishes the back of page 4. Mr. Griffin,
do you want to start with page 5?

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, you got through the entries “Burt called.”
For my own clarification, did we identify where the Loflin Hotel is,
which city that is in?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; we didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where that is?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure. I believe that it is Dallas. I am not
positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are all of the entries from Buddy Heard to 100 North
Florence—office——

Mr. HUBERT. That has been covered.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then on the top of page 5 there is a series of notations.
Would you read those off.

Mr. CRAFARD. “Get ad off to Hyman.” In other words things to tell Jack,
to remind Jack he had to do was to get an ad off to Hyman, pay a phone
bill and go to the bank and then appointment call to Earl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what ad there was to get off to Hyman?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was the ad in connection with the
twistboards. I am not positive. We were sending an ad to this Hyman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where the ad was to be placed?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. He was to mail it, I believe, I am not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the meaning of “appointment call to Earl”? What is
an appointment call?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had called and asked the operator to place the call at
a certain time and to call him back when the connection had been made.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The mailing of the ad to Hyman and the paying of the phone
bill and the going to the bank and the appointment call to Earl, did
these all occur on the same day?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line drawn under appointment call to Earl. It
separates the page in half roughly.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the significance of that line.

Mr. CRAFARD. It would be that this top portion of the page would have
been 1 day, things I had wrote down for 1 day. The bottom of it would
have been another day or on 2 or 3 days later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is an entry there “get post office box.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was that in connection with?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was going to get another post office box to
use for this twistboard setup.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he already have one post office box before that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was receiving the mail through the Carousel
Club and his home address.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a number under there RI 1-0345. Do you know whose
phone number that is?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is a line with nothing written on it after that,
and there is another entry. What is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. “Pauline called” at I believe 4 and will be in about 7 or
something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was Pauline?

Mr. CRAFARD. She was more or less I’d say the assistant manager over at
the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was Pauline Hall.

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front part of page 5; is that correct?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to ask on
those entries on page 5?

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the appointment call with Earl?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Those entries at the top of page 5, the four of them, the
things that you were to do or remind him of, were they simply told to
you by Jack over the phone or in person and then you were to remind him
the next day or later?

Mr. CRAFARD. Things that Jack said and I was to remind him the next
day. I believe on this phone call he had tried to place it one day
and he couldn’t get the phone call through so he arranged for an
appointment call the next afternoon I believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do it yourself?

Mr. CRAFARD. If Jack did?

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember him doing it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can remember him placing, trying to place a call to Earl
one day and he couldn’t make it and he arranged a call for the next
day. But I don’t know if this was the incident or not.

Mr. HUBERT. What this simply means is that you were to remind him of it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That was then your function with respect to it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall Jack ever mentioning or did you ever hear
anything about the Triangle Manufacturing Co.

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall it, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if Jack had any dealings with any people in
Wisconsin?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn over to the back of page 5. There is a
name written at the top of the back of page 5. What name is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jerry Lindsay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Jerry Lindsay?

Mr. CRAFARD. He called in wanting a job. He had been a floorman in
another club and he called in asking about a job at the Carousel Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is a floorman?

Mr. CRAFARD. A polite way of saying bouncer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack employ a bouncer while you were there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to Jack about why he did or did not, why
he didn’t have a bouncer?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any need for a bouncer?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; not the Carousel Club. This would have been in
connection with the Vegas Club, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a tougher crowd at the Vegas Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. They had sometimes some pretty tough crowds out there on
weekend nights. People would get drunk and start giving them trouble.
The floorman would talk to the man trying to get him to quiet and if he
wouldn’t be quiet he would escort him to the door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Vegas Club didn’t have stripteasers did it?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yet there was a tougher crowd there at the Vegas.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?

Mr. CRAFARD. The type of crowd that frequented the clubs, the Carousel
Club and the other burlesque shows in town was the businessmen more
than anything, whereas the Vegas Club’s clientele was more or less
common laborers, working people. It was a dance club where you could
go in and buy beer, soft drinks and you could dance, and the clientele
there was of the rougher nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I was a little bit confused in your testimony yesterday.

Was it your impression that Jack was doing better financially off the
Vegas than off the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. Definitely; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you say that with positiveness? What makes you so
positive about that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Two or three different times Jack said if it wasn’t for
the Vegas Club he would have had to close the Carousel down a long time
before. The Vegas Club was making enough money to keep the Carousel and
the Vegas both running.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think he kept the Carousel open?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, sir. There had been a stretch where I guess
he had had pretty bad luck with the Carousel, hadn’t been making much
money and he used the money he made from the Vegas Club to keep the
Carousel going at that time from what I understood.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the time you were working there was the Carousel
carrying its own?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes, sir; to my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you felt that in the month or 2 months that you
worked for Jack, both the Vegas and the Carousel were self-sustaining
operations?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After this entry about Jerry Lindsay, there is a telephone
number TA 7-2553 floorman, and I understand from your testimony those
all should be read together. Then there is a line with nothing written
on it and there is a notation which I wonder if you can decipher.

Mr. CRAFARD. “Talked to Leo—Mrs. Grant.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recall the significance of that, who Leo was?

Mr. CRAFARD. He worked at, I believe he was handling the floor at the
Carousel most of the time. I don’t recall what his last name was. I
believe this was the night that I stayed at the Vegas Club for Jack the
first night. I believe Leo called and I talked to him and then I talked
to Mrs. Grant right away. Mrs. Grant called right away after that and I
talked to her. I am not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your impression that the call from Jerry Lindsay was
also taken at the Vegas Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; the call from Jerry Lindsay was taken at the Carousel
Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the telephone number under that, EM——

Mr. CRAFARD. That is FL 1-9303.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; do you know what——

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall what it would be in connection with, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or the next telephone number.

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 5. Now let me turn over to page 6.
There are some entries on there, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,
Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, and then from Sunday through Monday you
have entries of amounts of money after that. Did you make those entries
on there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what do those refer to?

Mr. CRAFARD. It refers to draws that I made from the till.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what week that would have been that you made
that entry?

Mr. CRAFARD. No sir; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The entries for Thursday, Friday, and Saturday are not
complete. Do you have any recollection on the basis of that that it was
the last week that you worked there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so, sir. I don’t believe it was. I
might have been but I don’t believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Larry, I notice that nowhere else in this little book are
there entries of that nature. Can we assume that you only kept such
records for 1 week or rather 4 days of 1 week?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe this was because of the fact that Jack had
agreed to start paying me a salary and he wanted me to keep track of
my draw slips, draws on that, and then it appears about Wednesday or
Thursday he told me to quit keeping it, didn’t have to keep track of it
any more or something.

Mr. HUBERT. When you first went there it was just on a draw basis.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you talked to him about a salary?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He told you that he would think it over.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And your testimony now is that after you all had talked
about a salary he wanted to know what your draw was so that he could
adjust the salary accordingly, is that right?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that these entries would have been made about the time
that you talked about a salary?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. It would have been about 3 weeks before the
assassination of President Kennedy I believe, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That you talked about——

Mr. CRAFARD. About the salary; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It is fair to say then that these entries relate to that
week, to wit, about 3 weeks before the assassination.

Mr. CRAFARD. It would be 2 or 3 weeks before the assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. You said that the significance of the fact that there are
no entries for Thursday, Friday and Saturday is that Jack told you that
it was no longer necessary to keep a record of your draws?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would believe so; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What did that mean with respect to whether you were going
on salary or not?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember what it had to do with that, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go on a salary?

Mr. CRAFARD. I never was paid any salary.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do remember he told you to stop keeping a record.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that would be the reason that I quit. I don’t
actually recall him saying so but I believe that would be the reason.

Mr. HUBERT. Doesn’t that refresh your memory?

Mr. CRAFARD. No sir; it doesn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t let me finish but I will repeat it. Doesn’t that
refresh your memory with respect to the fact that you all had agreed
upon a salary then? Could it have any other significance?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had said something; he said I would draw a salary but
I don’t believe there was ever any exact figure agreed upon. I don’t
remember of any.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on Wednesday, although you had not agreed
on what the amount of the salary would be, your recollection is that he
told you it was no longer necessary to keep this because there would be
a salary?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. But there never was any salary paid at all.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you normally make these entries?

Mr. CRAFARD. Whenever I’d make a draw. Usually in the evening I made
most of my draws.

Mr. HUBERT. And you would put it in the book immediately.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; usually.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that sometimes you would put it in there
the next day.

Mr. CRAFARD. I might sometimes the next day; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact also that at the beginning of that week you
wrote down all of these days and then the entries were made as you drew
for each day?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now an entry for Thursday would have been made on Friday,
wouldn’t it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it would have been made on Thursday.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you just told me that there was at least the
possibility.

Mr. CRAFARD. There was a possibility I would have waited until Friday
but I believe I would have made the entries on the day I made the draw.

Mr. HUBERT. I am suggesting to you that these sets of entries have to
do with the week in which President Kennedy was killed, and that is
that you had agreed upon a salary on the Wednesday.

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall exactly what week they had to do with, sir;
really. It could have been that week.

Mr. HUBERT. But you had agreed on salary?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But not the amount of it?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. And you never were paid any?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. For instance, the Saturday before you left Dallas you were
not paid a salary.

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Had a salary been agreed upon prior to that time?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall that, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. If it had it would have been paid wouldn’t it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it would have been.

Mr. HUBERT. Doesn’t that pinpoint then this series of days as being the
week during which President Kennedy was killed on a Friday.

Mr. CRAFARD. It seems to; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After the entry “Saturday” there is a blank line and then
there is an entry “call home as soon as possible.”

How did that come to be written?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember, sir. It could have been somebody called
in to have one of the girls call home or something like this. A couple
of the girls had been married and had children.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a note left for Jack Ruby or for yourself?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe it was for Jack Ruby. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you carry this notebook on your person at all times?

Mr. CRAFARD. When I was in the club it was in my pocket all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And when you were not in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Most of the time it would be in my pocket, anyway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there is a telephone number written after the previous
entry, and it is RI 1-4643. Do you remember that entry?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t remember it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 6.

Now let me turn over page 6 to the back, and there is something written
on there, Schroll. Is that in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then there is the name Dick Gifford, KTVT, Fort Worth,
TA 3-7110. Is that in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you remember how this Schroll name happened to be
written down?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or who that refers to?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Dick Gifford?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was I believe an MC over at the KTVT.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you remember how that entry happened to be put in
there?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was something in connection with the twist board setup.
I called him in connection with—Jack give me the number to call and ask
for this Dick Gifford.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you say to Dick Gifford?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was something on the price of advertisement
on TV, for a TV advertisement or something of that sort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what makes you think that it was the price of a TV ad?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly this next line hasn’t got anything on it. It has
been erased. I believe I erased it, 150 for 1 minute, and I recall this
150 for 1 minute was in connection with a TV advertisement.

I don’t remember whether I made the call or whether Jack made the call
or what.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After the line 150 for 1 minute, which is partially
erased, there is an entry “Names of record shops where it can be
bought.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that refer to?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure of what it does refer to, sir. Probably a
record of some kind that Jack was wanting to get ahold of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any records that Jack was interested in
buying?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was buying records and bought a lot of records he gave
away as prizes in the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of records were they?

Mr. CRAFARD. Such records as, Belly Dancer and Striptease for Your
Husband. Rusty Warren records and such as that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So they were what you might call party records?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; party records.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack show an interest in any other kind of records
besides party records.

Mr. CRAFARD. Not for the club that I ever saw.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about for other purposes?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember him ever saying anything about records
for anything else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back part of page 6.

We will turn over to the front part of page 7. There are some entries
there. Are those entries all in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The first entry is Joe Roskydall.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us again who Joe Roskydall is?

Mr. CRAFARD. The name Roskydall is the last name of a friend of mine.
This Joe was a number in the phone number I called when I was trying to
locate this friend of mine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your friend’s first name.

Mr. CRAFARD. Robert Roskydall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And was Robert living with Joe Roskydall?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I figured they might be related. He had been around
Dallas for quite a while and I thought they might be related in some
way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is something written on the next line after Joe
Roskydall. What is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like Benning, EV 1-6260.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that have any connection with Joe Roskydall?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what Benning was?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is written on the next line?

Mr. CRAFARD. W. J. Groveland, DA 1-5178.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a person?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how that entry came to be?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is another entry there.

Mr. CRAFARD. Dick Lenard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; who is Dick Lenard?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall that, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is another one.

Mr. CRAFARD. KTVT TA 3-7110.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the same number that you had for Dick Gifford.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that indicate that there was a second call made?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that this KTVT here was wrote down before the
other one was. It was later he give me the name Dick Gifford for the
same number.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After the entry about KTVT there is a line with nothing
written on it and there is some more writing.

Mr. CRAFARD. E. J. Evans.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who he was?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the next?

Mr. CRAFARD. Stevens Park Beauty Salon, 2140 Forth Worth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the significance of that entry?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack had me calling the beauty salons trying to get them
to promote this twist board for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you call more than one beauty salon?

Mr. CRAFARD. I called several of them around Dallas. I don’t remember
calling any in Fort Worth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you do when you would call these beauty salons.

Mr. CRAFARD. Talk to them about the twist boards.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would a typical conversation go.

Mr. CRAFARD. I’d call them and tell them——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Introduce yourself?

Mr. CRAFARD. Introduce myself and tell them that I was promoting a
twist board exerciser and tell them a little bit about the exerciser
and that we would like to arrange a deal where we could put this
exerciser in their salon, put it for sale in their salons.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you make any placements?

Mr. CRAFARD. No sir. Excuse me, but this one here was 2140 Fort Worth
Avenue in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be in Dallas.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. The phone number would be WH 6-9755. Underneath that
is mail brochure. I believe we were supposed to mail a brochure to them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that is mail brochure and not Maisel Brothers.

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I am positive that is mail brochure, almost positive
of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what were you supposed to do?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mail a brochure to this Stevens Park Beauty Salon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have brochures printed up?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after you started to work for him did he have
these brochures? When did he first have them?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was about 2 weeks before President Kennedy
was assassinated he got them. He hadn’t got them very long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe the brochures? How many pages were they?

Mr. CRAFARD. One page. It was a sheet, I believe it was 7½ inches long
and I believe it was about 5½ inches wide.

It said “Twist a waist exerciser,” and then it showed an exerciser
board. Then I believe it showed a couple of the different positions of
a person on an exerciser board. I am not positive of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How big were these twist boards?

Mr. CRAFARD. They were about an 8-inch square.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were they made out of?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was a 1½-inch pressed board.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be wood of some sort.

Mr. CRAFARD. Pressed wood.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a fiberboard?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is not a plastic though?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe these boards were made out of sort of a plastic
glue in the press board. Then underneath that would be a ball-bearing
disk, sort of a twist setup with a small piece of masonite attached to
the bottom of that. The board would twist on the ball bearings.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And would you lie on the floor on this thing?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; you would stand on it and twist.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who designed this item?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know who originally designed the item.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get the impression that Jack had designed it
himself?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t really know, sir. I never got any idea of who had
designed it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the brochure, did it have a picture of the twist board
on it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so. I am not positive of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 7, doesn’t it.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The front part of page 7.

Now turning to the back of page 7, there are some entries in pencil,
are those all in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what is the first entry?

Mr. CRAFARD. Ed McMulmore it looks like. It is probably spelled wrong.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that name?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then there is two telephone numbers written after that.

Mr. CRAFARD. There is the word “Johnnie call Detroit.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. But there are two telephone numbers.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then the note “Johnnie call Detroit Helene.” What does
that have to do with—?

Mr. CRAFARD. Johnnie was the first name of one of the MC’s Jack had
working for him. I don’t recall the last name. He got a call to call
Detroit, to call Helene in Detroit. Apparently he had the number
because that is all I got. I was told to have him call Helene in
Detroit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Helene was?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. I thought it was possibly his wife.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then there are three blank lines.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And a number written upside down. What number is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is RI 6-6807.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that number?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. I don’t believe that is my handwriting. It
doesn’t appear to be. For one thing for the fact that it is wrote with
the page turned upside down, for one thing, and the numbers aren’t
shaped like any numbers are shaped.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible, referring to the top of the page, that
this entry which looks like Ed McMulmore is really Ed Mc, and then
Mulmore?

Mr. CRAFARD. It could be; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that mean anything to you reading it that way?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now written on the right side up on the back of page 7
after the entry RI 6-6807, there is another entry. What is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. CEN, which would be I believe the abbreviation for
Central, and EX, which I believe would be the abbreviation for
Expressway, dash 5400.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that have to do with?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t think anything. I believe that is my writing. Let
me see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is or is not?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is. Wait a minute, Jack was going somewhere
or somebody else was going for him and he was having trouble, didn’t
know how to get there. Somebody was going somewhere and they didn’t
know how to get there and I was talking to the people they was going
to see and they told me to have him turn at Central Expressway 5400 on
McKinney to 2500.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Those are directions to get to some place?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; McKinney, but I don’t remember where.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were they directions for you or for Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. For somebody else. I don’t recall who it was for.

Mr. GRIFFIN. For a friend of Jack’s?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall. I give the directions to somebody else but
I don’t recall who it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is it your understanding then that you would drive out
Central Expressway to the 5400 block?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then at the 5400 block you would find McKinney?

Mr. CRAFARD. Make a right-hand turn I believe on McKinney, the 2500
block.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think you make a right-hand turn?

Mr. CRAFARD. I remember something about the conversation. I am trying
to remember. I can’t remember too much of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a conversation you had with somebody on the
telephone?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was. I am not positive. I would not swear
to it but I believe it was over the telephone that I was given these
directions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you were to pass the directions on to somebody else?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What part of Dallas would that be in, following those
directions?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it would be the southern portion of Dallas, I
am not sure. It seems to me 5400 on Central would be the other end of
Dallas, the southern end.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back part of page 7. Now on page 8
there are some entries. Whose entries are those?

Mr. CRAFARD. These are my entries.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, the first one has to do with somebody named
Lenard Woods.

Mr. CRAFARD. Lenard Woods, his social security number, his address,
3420 Medow, Apt. No. 235. These gentlemen on this page are all members
of the band that played at the Vegas Club, and it would be Milton
Thomas, his social security number, with the address 2220 Anderson,
the phone number HA 1-1026; Clarence McInnis, social security number,
the address 2607 Oakland, no phone number; James Dotson, the social
security number, the address 1136 Fletcher, his phone number RI 7-7436;
the name James T. Aycox, his social security number, 2715 Hebornia;
I believe it is with a notation under that that he also was known as
Bear; they called him the Bear. His phone number was HA 1-1026.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to come to put all of those notations
in there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack’s sister took sick. He had me get the names and the
addresses of the boys. I had understood him to say he wanted it for tax
purposes and I got the social security numbers too, so he could get in
touch with them for one thing when he did want to get in touch with
them and also for he said tax purposes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see these men at the Vegas Club and get the
information there or did you call them?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I got these from, it was either Jack’s sister or
Pauline. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front side of page 8.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the back of page 8 there are some entries. What are
those entries?

Mr. CRAFARD. The numbers, the phone number WH 3-9783. That doesn’t mean
anything to me whatsoever. The phone number TA 7-9088. I can’t make out
what is underneath it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know for sure. It could be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And this telephone number doesn’t mean anything to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 8. Let’s look at page 9.

There are some entries there. Are those in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t remember every making an entry of that sort.
For one thing this phone number has been gone over two or three times.
These numbers $3, $3.50, that has no meaning whatsoever to me. None of
this has any meaning to me whatsoever. I don’t recall ever making an
entry of that sort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you ever even decipher this 18 and then a 12 and then
something is written. What is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like M-M-L-E-S or it could be M-E-B-L-S. That is
as close as I can come to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a telephone number RI 7-5610 also on that page.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And is that in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so. It could be. It could be, I am not
positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 9, doesn’t it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The front part. And there is nothing written on the back
of page 9.

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is nothing written on the front or back of page
10.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 11 is a half sheet of paper and there is nothing
written on the front or back of what is left of that. Now on page 12
there are some items “supporter, shaving cream, after shave lotion,
tooth brush, code 10 hair cream.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And they are personal items?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That you purchased for yourself?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after you began to work for Jack was that entry
made?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe about 2 or 3 weeks after I went to work for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you left?

Mr. CRAFARD. That would be at least 4 or 5 weeks before I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the front part of page 12 and there is nothing
else on the front part of page 12. On the back part of page 12 there
are a number of entries. Can you read those off to us.

Mr. CRAFARD. The name Bonnie?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Bonnie?

Mr. CRAFARD. She is one of the waitresses at the Carousel Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is after that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Salami, swiss cheese on rye with mayonnaise.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what is the entry.

Mr. CRAFARD. Ham and cheese with mayonnaise.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an M or something up ahead.

Mr. CRAFARD. That signifies the mayonnaise.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. CRAFARD. PS, I don’t know exactly what that PS meant there. There
is ham and cheese with mayonnaise. I am not sure what the first part of
this was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that be Betty or Becky.

Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been Becky, probably Becky; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a girl there named Becky, a waitress?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; a waitress. Then the next entry on the page is Bill
Remike.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he?

Mr. CRAFARD. He called in for reservations at the Carousel Club. To
continue with that, Bill Remike, two couples at 9:30 they asked for
good locations. The next entry on that is the name Proctor, one couple
at 9 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is also a reservation.

Mr. CRAFARD. Also a reservation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back of page 12.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now page 13, there is an entry.

Mr. CRAFARD. The phone number WH 2-5326, Bobby Patterson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Bobby Patterson.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was at the Vegas Club, one of the players at
the Vegas Club. I don’t have his name down. He had something to do with
the band at the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he somebody that you saw? Had you met him?

Mr. CRAFARD. I met Bobby Patterson; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times would you say you met him?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I saw him once or twice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe once at the Carousel Club and I believe I saw
him at the Vegas Club one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall now the time you saw him at the Carousel,
when was that?

Mr. CRAFARD. He come in in the afternoon and talked to Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall how long he stayed?

Mr. CRAFARD. He wasn’t there very long, maybe 15 or 20 minutes at the
most.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall what he talked about with him?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was something about, had something to do with
who was in charge of the band at the Carousel or the Vegas Club or
something of that sort. I am not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the time that you think you saw him at the Vegas
Club.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe one night when I went over with Jack he was
there. He played at the Vegas Club. I am trying to get it straight.
I think he was a guitar player. No; wait a minute, a horn player,
saxophone player I believe it was. And this buddy of his, they had an
act where the buddy lay down across two chairs and he stepped up on his
buddy’s chest and he stood on his buddy’s chest playing his horn.

I believe that was Bobby Patterson. I am not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could this guy have been a police officer?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I am very doubtful of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t know any Bobby Patterson who was a police
officer?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is no question that you had met a guy named
Bobby Patterson.

Mr. CRAFARD. No question there; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would Andy Armstrong know Bobby Patterson?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe he would.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That entry is in pencil and there is a line with nothing
written on it and then there is another entry under that. What is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. It appears to be 3902 East Waco.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who made that entry?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you testified before you didn’t think that was
your handwriting.

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I would change that. I would say that was 0902 if you
take a close look at it. You can see that, 0902 East Waco.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or could it be E Street Waco?

Mr. CRAFARD. It might be that, but I never made the entry, I would
remember it if I saw it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front part of page 13. On the back of
page 13 there are some entries. What do those seem to be?

Mr. CRAFARD. I’d say the first one would be call Jack at the Carousel.
The next one would be call Mr. Ruby at the Carousel. The next one would
be Tex Lacy. It is prevedo I would say or something like that. That is
all I can make out. Pre, and v-e-d-o.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that mean anything to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. Were these entries “call Jack Carousel” and “Call Mr.
Ruby at the Carousel,” were these your entries?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I believe this would be my entry here, too. I am not
positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were those notes for yourself or——

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was something I told somebody else or
something. I don’t even—I can’t even figure why I would write it down.
I don’t know. That doesn’t really look like my handwriting. I wouldn’t
have put “Call Mr. Ruby.” I’d put “Call Jack.” And this looks like
“Mr.” up at the top of the page. It is something I can’t ever remember
putting something like that on the top of a page without finishing it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back portion of page 13. Page 14 is
about a third of a sheet written in pencil.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that say?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure what it is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated this is Boeing and something or other
afterward.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then “Frank Fisher.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Frank Fisher?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you indicated before that you thought that was in
connection with twist boards.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you still think that?

Mr. CRAFARD. It could be twist boards or something to do with these
dogs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think something to do with the dogs?

Mr. CRAFARD. Boeing would be possibly Boeing Aircraft and I was making
arrangements to ship one of the dogs to California, so it could be
something to do with one of the dogs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall a Frank Fisher who was a musician and who
was a friend of Jack Ruby’s?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe I ever met him. I am not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That information doesn’t refresh your recollection about
Frank Fisher at all?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front part of page 14. On the back of
page 14 there is a telephone number.

Mr. CRAFARD. TA 7-2553. I don’t recall what the number would be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then a notation about?

Mr. CRAFARD. “Tuna fish with lettuce wholewheat toast dry.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back of page 14. Now on page 15 at the
top there is an entry. What is that entry?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is Charley Boland, KTVT with a number LA
6-8303.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember making a call to that number?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything about that notation?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; sir. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the next telephone number on there, WE 7-3837?

Mr. CRAFARD. That doesn’t mean anything to me. I believe I stated
before I didn’t believe I put that down.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about “Herman Flowers,” that doesn’t mean anything to
you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So the entry here “Herman Flowers from Wax a Hatchy” is
the last entry on the front part of page 15.

We will turn that over and on the back of page 15 there are a lot of
numbers written down.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do those numbers have to do with?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea. It is definitely not my figuring.

(Short recess taken.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. We are on page 16 and we are looking at the first entry on
the page. What does that entry appear to be?

Mr. CRAFARD. “K. Hamilton.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that mean anything to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; the rest of the page, I would say that it was somebody
had called in for reservations.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It says, “9—3 couples between runway.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that page 16 is a half sheet of paper and there is
nothing more on the page, and turning it over on the back part of that
half sheet of paper there is an entry. What is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. “Mr. Miller Friday 15 people Collins Radio Co.” It would
be somebody called in for reservations for 15 people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is another entry under that.

Mr. CRAFARD. “Cody-City Hall.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know who Cody was?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack had said something about it. I think he was an
officer of the law. I’m not sure if he was an officer of the law or a
lawyer, or what he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you recall? Do you recall the name Joe Cody?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t recall the first name of the gentleman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you recall that Jack said about Cody?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall what Jack really did say. It had something
to do with when he give it to me it was something to do with city
hall, he had to see him, or he wanted me to remind him to call him, or
something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When would this have been?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Shortly before you left?

Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been 2 or 3 weeks. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is nothing further on that half sheet of paper, is
there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, looking at the top of page 17 there is a number
written. What is that number?

Mr. CRAFARD. “TA 3-8101.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whose number that is?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that would be the doctor’s number. I’m not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Under there is written the name “Dr. Aranoff.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your writing?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who Dr. Aranoff was?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was Mrs. Grant’s doctor, as I recall it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any conversation with him?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can recall. I never had any conversation
with the doctor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line with nothing written on it. And the next
line has what looks like a telephone number on it. What is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. The number “FR 4-2764.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a Dallas telephone number?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive of that. It might be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the number familiar to you at all?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t recall the number at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And on the next line, what is written?

Mr. CRAFARD. “LA 8-4716,” the name “Debby.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the name Debby familiar to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is a line with nothing written on it, and then
there is another line.

Mr. CRAFARD. “Overton Rd.,” and “Hawthorne” underneath, it would be
Hawthorne Road Drive, I believe, “Porta Build, Inc.” company. This is
all something of my own here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did that have to do with?

Mr. CRAFARD. This is all on my own. At that time, I was going to try
to get in touch with my brother-in-law who lives in Dallas, Tex., and
this Overton Road, I believe, is where one of the people that I went to
church with lived, out on Hawthorne Drive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Porta——

Mr. CRAFARD. I had at one time worked for Porter Building Corp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When had you worked for them?

Mr. CRAFARD. I had worked for them the year before, the previous year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you going to contact them?

Mr. CRAFARD. I was thinking about, maybe seeing if they needed any men
down there, or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you make that entry?

Mr. CRAFARD. This was about a month before President Kennedy was
assassinated.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever contact them about a job?

Mr. CRAFARD. I called them one time, I believe, and the gentleman
wasn’t there that I had talked to, and I never called back. The Litot
Trailer Park, that is where we was staying, where my wife and I lived
when we was living in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the next entry on there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the telephone number?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is the number of the Litot Trailer Park.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 17, the front half. On the back half
of page 17 there is a notation. What is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Call Buddy Heard, El Paso, dial direct, tell them that you
are in town, that you are a friend and would like to get in touch with
him. This is something for Andy. He was to call Buddy Heard in El Paso.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Andy go to El Paso?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; he was to make a call; dial direct to El Paso as if he
was in El Paso. I don’t remember exactly what it had something to do
with. It seemed like this Buddy here was a comedian or something that
Jack was trying to hire or something of that sort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Andy going to try to hire him?

Mr. CRAFARD. I think it was just he was doing that for Jack, trying to
find out how to get in touch with him. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there are two lines with no writing on them, and then
there is another entry. What is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. The name Mary.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anybody named Mary, in Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. It has no meaning to me except the fact that my
sister-in-law’s name is Mary.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the telephone number under that?

Mr. CRAFARD. It has no meaning to me whatsoever.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then the next telephone number?

Mr. CRAFARD. It has no meaning, either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That last telephone number on the page is RI 1-1456, and
the other telephone number on that page is DA 4-4378. That concludes
the back of page 17. Turning over to page 18, there are some entries on
there. What is the first entry on the page?

Mr. CRAFARD. It is D 2 with a dash and then the figure 175, $1.75.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure unless it is maybe some draws I took that
day or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that is $2 and not $200?

Mr. CRAFARD. It might possibly be $200.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any dealings with anybody about spending $200?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the notation after that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack took $20 from the bar till.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when that was?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is another entry after that, “Pete White Atty.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Pete White, attorney, Fidelity Union Life Building, with a
number, RI 1-1295.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make that entry?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall anything about Pete White?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what is the next entry on there?

Mr. CRAFARD. The next entry has to do with the twist boards. It is,
“Call beauty salon; tell them that I have a twist-a-waist exerciser,”
and let them have it for $2; in quantities for $1.75 each.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it fair to suggest that the $2-175 that is written at
the top of the page and this same entry about $2 and $1.75 both relate
to twist boards?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front part of page 18. Turning over to
page 18——

Mr. CRAFARD. The first thing on the page is “Jimmy Rhodes can tell
where to get blowups at.” Some blowups of some pictures that Jack
wanted and this fellow Jimmy Rhodes could tell him where to get them at.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jimmy Rhodes?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of him?

Mr. CRAFARD. I heard Jack mention the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is a line with nothing written on it, and the
name?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mr. Wooldridge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some idea?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is another line with nothing written on it. Then
there is a telephone number.

Mr. CRAFARD. The number WH 6-6220.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that number mean anything to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is another line with nothing written on it; and
the notation “8-5 tomorrow.” What did that have to do with?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is another line with nothing written on it. And the
name Bob Litchfield.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember him?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And a telephone number after that.

Mr. CRAFARD. It is TA 7-9301.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then a name after that.

Mr. CRAFARD. Mrs. Moddy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is she?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was his bookkeeper. I’m not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there are some numbers. That concludes page 18, does
it not?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. With the exception of a telephone number, RI 7-5311, which
is right under the name Mrs. Moddy.

Mr. CRAFARD. I imagine it is her number.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is some writing on the inside of the back
cover. There are three telephone numbers, RI 7-7436, CH 2-3442, CH
2-4114. What do those numbers relate to, if you know?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is another number Newton. There is a name
Newton. Does that mean anything to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not positive of that. It doesn’t appear to be my
writing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the number written under the name Newton?

Mr. CRAFARD. 2550.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is not your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I don’t ever recall of having wrote any of those
written in ink.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be everything on that page except the RI 7-7436?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on the outside portion of the back cover there are
some other things written on there. See if you can tell us what those
are.

Mr. CRAFARD. The name J. L. Coxsey.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know this person?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. The name Coxsey is the name of one of the gentlemen I
went to church with when my wife and I were living in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would that be spelled?

Mr. CRAFARD. His name was Lee Coxsey.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the same gentleman?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. And there is the number under that
that I can’t make out. Then there is a number EV 1-6979, and there is,
it looks like LV or something. I can’t understand that a bit. There is
the number FL 2-8995.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those things in your handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you left that book when you departed
from Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was either in Jack’s office or in the room right in
front of his office where I slept days. I’m not positive whether I left
it on his desk or on a stand in my room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But in any event did you leave it in the open, or did you
leave it in a drawer?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was lying right out on top of a table or a
desk, whichever it was. I’m not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert do you have any questions you want to ask?

Mr. HUBERT. Did I understand you to say earlier this morning that
normally you kept that book on your person?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t leave it hanging around?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. On occasion, Jack would be there and I
would be giving him a number and he would want me to go down maybe get
a paper or something like that and I’d leave the book lay on one of the
tables near the phone and go down and come back up.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you would get your book back?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I guess it is fair to say, then, that except for those
occasions, and then when you left the book, when you departed from
Dallas, the book was always in your possession?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever notice that some of the entries were made by
someone else in that book prior to the time you left for Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to say that they were not made prior to the
time you left for Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, specifically, some of the entries that you have said
are not in your handwriting——

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were not in that book when you left for Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. What makes you sure of that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Nobody else had wrote in the book.

Mr. HUBERT. No one had a chance to?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Jack would have had a chance to on a few occasions?

Mr. CRAFARD. On a couple of occasions he had a notebook just like it
that he carried himself.

Mr. HUBERT. But you never saw these entries even after Jack had
occasion to write them in?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. I never noticed them.

Mr. HUBERT. And no one else had a chance to write them in?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible that those entries were written
prior to the time you left Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. I doubt it very much. It was possible, but I doubt very
much if they were.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you testified this morning earlier, too, that the book
seemed to be somewhat different from when you last saw it in Dallas.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In what ways did it seem different?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there were more pages in it than was there.

Mr. HUBERT. Pages with writing, or blank pages?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t recall whether they was all blank pages or whether
they had writing on them, or what.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it this way: Do you recall any particular pages
that are not in that book at the present time?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You are not in a position to say, then, really, that any
pages with information on them have been taken out?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Your impression that the book is different than it was
before you left Dallas is based then upon the size of the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Does it seem to have fewer blank pages now than it did
before?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I thought there was half a dozen or so blank pages in
the middle of the book last time I used it.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your purpose in leaving the book in Dallas when
you determined to go away?

Mr. CRAFARD. There was numbers that, to me, that had to do with this
business and they didn’t mean anything to me, so I just left it there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do that deliberately?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I figured they was numbers that he wanted. It didn’t
mean anything to me. I had no use for it.

Mr. HUBERT. You wanted to see that he got them?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know where you left the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. I either left it—I am not positive exactly where I left
it. It was either in his office on the desk or in my room on a stand
where he would have saw it.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why you didn’t write a note saying why you
were leaving, where you would be?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t say why other than what I have said the other day.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware that Jack would argue you into staying?

Mr. CRAFARD. I thought he probably would; if I called him or anything
he would probably do his best to get me to stay, and I had made up my
mind to leave and I didn’t want to have to argue with him.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, that wouldn’t have prevented your writing a note.

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or of calling Armstrong.

Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t even think about it a bit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think at all about calling anybody?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This wasn’t even a matter that you pondered as to whether
you should or should not call?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; nothing I had thought of. I never had any idea. I
didn’t feel that there was any real reason for me to call anyone.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you told me that you felt grateful to Jack for what
he had done for you.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that the motivation for your leaving was not any anger.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. On your part against him, but, rather, that you wanted to
see your sister?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t think you owed it to him just to leave him a note?

Mr. CRAFARD. It just never entered my mind.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that there might be a question of how
much cash you had in fact taken?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the salary that was owed to you? Weren’t you
interested in that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t even think about it.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t say goodbye to anybody when you left Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t advise anyone that you were leaving Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; other than the fact that I give the key to the boy at
the parking lot and told him to tell Jack goodbye for me.

Mr. HUBERT. You did send a message of goodbye to Jack through this man?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave word where you would be?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you leave any message to the effect that you had taken
$5 out of the till?

Mr. CRAFARD. I left a draw slip in the till just like I always have.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in any kind of trouble there with a girl or
something of that sort?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. That required you to leave as hastily as you did?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it your custom to move around like that without leaving
any contact points?

Mr. CRAFARD. Quite frequently; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who knew you were working at the Carousel among your family
or friends?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I had wrote my cousin and informed her. I
believe I wrote my mother and informed her.

Mr. HUBERT. This girl Gail knew it?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is my cousin.

Mr. HUBERT. That is your cousin?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; the cousin I was referring to at this time.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you expect to have happen to the mail that you got
at the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t even realize I had left any mail. I had wrote to
the people. I hadn’t been getting any answers. My mother doesn’t write
an awful lot, and I hadn’t got any letters from my cousin for a little
while. My sister hadn’t answered the letter I wrote to her, so I just——

Mr. HUBERT. Weren’t you going out with a girl that you had gotten
fairly close to by that time?

Mr. CRAFARD. She had left Texas at this time. She had left Texas and,
as far as I know, went out to California.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there anybody else that you were interested in there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you say to us now that in your opinion, and by this I
mean your departure from Dallas under the circumstances you did depart
was normal in your life?

Mr. CRAFARD. Somewhat, yes; most of the time I go to leave, I just take
off and go.

Mr. HUBERT. You have done that before?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Many times?

Mr. CRAFARD. I’ve done it two or three times I can recall. I usually
leave from around my people, if I’m around my sister I’ll say something
to her that I’m going to take off and where I plan on going. If I
leave home I usually say something to the folks on where I plan on
going.

Mr. HUBERT. After you found out that Jack had killed Oswald, did it
ever occur to you that the way in which you had left Dallas might seem
odd?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it did occur to me that it might seem very odd.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you communicate that view to anyone?

Mr. CRAFARD. I think I said something to my sister to the effect that
I thought it might be kind of suspicious the way I had left Dallas, so
suddenly, without saying anything to anybody.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that to your cousin, too?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know for sure if I said anything to Gail about
that or not.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you told us that you spoke to your cousin, I am
talking about Roberts now, about the fact that you had left Dallas on
Saturday evening and the manner in which you left.

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall saying anything to him about the fact that
I thought it might be suspicious.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I am not suggesting that. But what I want to ask you
is whether he thought that the way in which you left might throw some
suspicion.

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall him saying anything about it, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that perhaps one easy way to clarify
your position would be to contact the FBI or some police agency and
tell them where you were?

Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t think about that. I figured that if they were
looking for me, if I had heard anything about the fact that they were
looking for me I figured I’d go to the nearest police station and tell
them who I was and that they was looking for me. But that is the only
thing I thought about on that.

Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t you rather know that they were looking for you?

Mr. CRAFARD. I wasn’t positive that they were. I thought they might be;
yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You had a pretty good idea that they might be?

Mr. CRAFARD. Like I say, I thought they might be looking for me but I
wasn’t positive.

Mr. HUBERT. Wouldn’t you want to find out positive evidence they were
looking for you?

Mr. CRAFARD. If there had been any definite evidence they were looking
for me, I would have went into the nearest police station and told them
who I was.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by definite evidence?

Mr. CRAFARD. The fact I knew for sure they were. I said I just thought
that they might be.

Mr. HUBERT. You just told us that you thought that they might be?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right; I said that I thought they might be.

Mr. HUBERT. That wasn’t enough to cause you to——

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; it isn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you contemplating, as a matter of fact, going to some
police agency prior to the time the FBI came to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe that I was.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you expect to get this positive evidence that they
were looking for you?

Mr. CRAFARD. I just figured if it was possible they might put something
in the paper or maybe something over the radio or something and if I
heard that they was looking for a young fellow that had worked for Ruby
by the name of Larry or anything like that, they was looking for this
young fellow that had worked for Ruby or anything, that I would have
went in and told them who I was.

Mr. HUBERT. I understood you said there was no radio or newspaper at
your sister’s house.

Mr. CRAFARD. No; but I was at other people’s places that had radios.

Mr. HUBERT. You expected to get the information that way?

Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t stay with my sister all the time.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you were making an effort to find out if they were
looking for you?

Mr. CRAFARD. I was where I would have found out if it was so, yes, on
several occasions.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you went to listen to radio programs or TV
programs with an effort to find out, among other things, whether they
were looking for you?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you might communicate with them and tell them where
you were?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. I figured one thing. I hadn’t done anything
wrong. I had no reason to hide from anything because I hadn’t done
anything wrong, so if there had been any indication whatsoever that
they was looking for me I would have walked into the nearest police
station and turned myself in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel that anybody else had done anything wrong?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I knew from what I had heard that Ruby had killed,
shot Oswald, I knew it was wrong. Like I say, I mean I had no idea that
anybody else connected with him had done anything.

Mr. HUBERT. What made you think in the first place that there might be
some suspicion cast upon you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the way I left, after I found out that Ruby shot
Oswald, the way I left, I thought just suddenly like that, didn’t leave
any word to anybody where I was going or anything.

Mr. HUBERT. How would that connect you with the killing of Oswald?

Mr. CRAFARD. I had been working for Ruby. He had shot Oswald. It could
be kind of insinuating circumstances why I left and everything like
that.

Mr. HUBERT. But you had left before Oswald was shot?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I had left before Oswald was shot.

Mr. HUBERT. So that really your concern was not that they would connect
you with the killing of Oswald?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But that——

Mr. CRAFARD. They might think that I had done something wrong, myself.

Mr. HUBERT. With reference to what?

Mr. CRAFARD. To anything. I mean breaking the law in any way.

Mr. HUBERT. With reference to the shooting of the President, too?

Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?

Mr. HUBERT. With reference to shooting of the President?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, it could be that they might have thought I was
involved in that in some way or something like that, and I just figured
if they thought, you know, the way I had left if they had any idea at
all that would further their idea, I mean if they had any idea that any
of Ruby’s employees were involved in it, that would further the idea
that I had been involved in this, in it.

Mr. HUBERT. You actually thought about that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I felt——

Mr. HUBERT. That was the thing that gave you concern and that is what
you talked to your sister about?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it kind of bothered me a little bit.

Mr. HUBERT. Couldn’t you have ended the bother by going to the nearest
police force?

Mr. CRAFARD. I probably could have. I never even thought about going in
like that, just walking in and talking to them, asking them about it or
anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you fear when you left Dallas that things might be
happening which would get you in trouble?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; it never entered my mind. I figured that that would be
the end of things when they had caught Oswald, I kind of figured that
would be the end of it and he would come to trial.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you fear that things might be happening which would
get Jack or other people you knew in trouble?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it point blank to you, Larry. Did you think that
possibly Ruby or someone among his friends might have had something to
do with this and the best thing for you to do as an innocent person was
to get out of there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I didn’t, because if I had had the slightest idea
that him or anybody he knew had anything to do with it, the first thing
I would have done would have been to walk right straight down to the
police station.

Mr. HUBERT. Then when you found out that he had killed Oswald,
didn’t it occur to you that he might be killing Oswald to remove the
President’s murderer?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe it really did occur to me at that time; no.

Mr. HUBERT. You see the point now, don’t you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I understand what you are trying to say. But later we
discussed the fact that Oswald and Ruby might have been connected, as I
believe everybody else has.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think there is anything, can you think of anything
as a result of what you saw down there in Dallas that would indicate
that Jack shot Oswald out of some kind of fear?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t really think of anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Out of some motive of self-preservation other than, or not
necessarily connected with the shooting of the President, but that he
would have feared Oswald in any kind of a way?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t think of anything that would prove that, that
would give me any reason to believe that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some idea on the basis of your experience with
Jack and so forth as to why he shot Oswald?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I haven’t, other than the fact that I believed ever
since it happened that Jack was out of his mind. I believe right today
that the man should be in a mental institution.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that simply because you can’t conceive of anybody doing
what he did, or from some other facts?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t conceive of a man that is in his right mind
walking up to a man, just walking up to a man, putting a gun in his
belly and pulling the trigger.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In a police station?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, I can’t conceive of it, of any man that is
in his right mind doing so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But, other than that, is there any indication that you had
that Jack wasn’t in his right mind?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you saw him for a period of about maybe 18 hours
after the President was shot. In that period that you saw him after the
President was shot, is there anything that indicated to you that he
wasn’t in his right mind in the way that, you know, his behavior was
markedly different?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From the way Jack Ruby usually acted?

Mr. CRAFARD. One thing he was kind of, when he would speak it was kind
of a choppy way of speaking. He would say two or three words, wait and
then say two or three more, which wasn’t usual for Jack. He might bust
off in the middle of a sentence and then pause for a couple of seconds
before he completed the sentence.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this what you were referring to when you talked about
Jack being nervous?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; very much that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it the kind of nervousness that a man might have if he
were afraid himself?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; that is possible, a man that was afraid for
himself would be nervous like this; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You observed those conditions prior to the time you left?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. This nervous condition?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; on the night when we went out and took those pictures
he was pretty well that way, he would talk in a burst and he would stop
and then talk in a burst again.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Larry, isn’t it a fact that the reason why you left
was because you didn’t want to have any part of what you saw going on
then?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t understand what you mean by that.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw Jack being nervous. You saw him taking all these
pictures. You saw his great concern about the death of the President.
Didn’t it occur to you, and isn’t it a fact that the reason you had
left was because you figured that you didn’t want to have any part of
anything that was going on, although you didn’t know what was going on?
Isn’t that a fact?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I cannot say that it is, because I had no idea there
was anything going on, period.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about Jack that indicated to you a
peculiar concern about the death of the President, that the death of
the President itself was some sort of a concern, a great concern to him
more than it seemed to be to you or to Andy or anybody else?

Mr. CRAFARD. It seemed to me more like it was more of a personal effect
on him than it did on anybody else that I talked to very much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean by that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t really explain it. To me, I was shocked and
everything, but it wasn’t like it had been a member, more or less, say,
a member of my own family. With him, it hit him more like it had been a
member of his own family, it seemed to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There was something he said in that connection?

Mr. CRAFARD. I think he said something, but I don’t recall what he said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: Were you present when Jack learned
that Officer Tippit had been shot?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. I’m not sure. I think Jack was at the club
or come to the club just shortly afterward.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Jack’s talking about Officer Tippit?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I think he said he knew him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk a lot about the death of the President?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe any more than anybody else did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Officer Tippit? Did he talk about that?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t recall as he said much about it other than the
fact that he said he knew him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated yesterday that you felt Jack’s concern
over the death of the President was related to his concern for the
convention business in Dallas. You remarked about his saying this is
going to ruin the convention business.

Mr. CRAFARD. Something to that effect. That was one of the first things
he said, but that was the only time he referred to it that I can recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you look at his activities, do you think that his
concern or what had happened down in Dallas, meaning the death of the
President and perhaps even the death of Officer Tippit, that Jack’s
concern might have been more related to his fear about what would be
happening to his business rather than any sympathy and grief over the
man himself?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t say that he did. I mean it seems to me like if
a man was really concerned about his business he wouldn’t have closed
Friday night like he did. It seems to me like something like that—you
know what I mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. But, again, that is an impression you are drawing from
some sort of outside event?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am asking you to look at just what Jack was talking
about and the things that he seemed to be concerned with and occupied
with after the death of the President.

Were they things, was his conversation mostly about the President, or
was it mostly about the things that he had to do in Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was mostly about the President, as near as I
can recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you talk with him at the Carousel about the
President?

Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, while he was there the first time we was talking about
it. I’m trying to recall there was something said there when he said
something about he was going to be closed, that we was going to be
closed that night. He seemed to think if we closed and the other clubs
stayed open it might help a little bit, help the club a little bit, or
something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that in Jack’s mind closing was an aid to his business?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Larry, when you decided to go, to leave Dallas, I take it
that you packed up all your belongings because you didn’t expect to
come back.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you told us you had two little cases?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you search around to see that you had done all that
needed to be done?

Mr. CRAFARD. I knew I had everything that I wanted to take with me. I
left a couple old shirts and a pair of old pants, I believe, that I
left there.

Mr. HUBERT. And you left the book?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What about that letter that you had written to Gale?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t even recall a letter that I had wrote to her that
I had left there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know that there was a letter there with your aunt’s
address on it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I had received a letter, but I believe I had threw the
envelope into the waste basket or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before you left had you received that letter?

Mr. CRAFARD. I think it had been probably about a week, I’m not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it stay in the wastebasket all that time?

Mr. CRAFARD. I think I had it lay on my desk, on the table there, for a
couple days, 3 or 4 days, or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. And then threw it in the wastepaper basket?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; the wastebasket wouldn’t have gotten empty until I
emptied it, and I wouldn’t have emptied it until it was full.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone else know about your aunt, her address in
Harrison?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Jack and Andy both knew that I had received a
letter from my cousin.

Mr. HUBERT. Your aunt and cousin? Well, it is Gail?

Mr. CRAFARD. Gail, Miss Eaton.

Mr. HUBERT. How did they know that? How do you remember that they knew
that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the fact, the reason I remember it, there was some
mail in on Jack’s desk for one of the guys and he told me to bring it
out by the cash register on the front desk and give it to them when I
went in, and when I went and got it there was this letter addressed to
me. I said something to Jack because he hadn’t give it to me and he
said he didn’t know that was my name, and Andy was there when I said
something.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any reason to believe that he or Andy made a
record of your aunt’s address?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. When you left, then, so far as you knew, no one was aware
of your aunt’s address or of Gail Eaton’s address?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. You had forgotten that the envelope was in the wastepaper
basket?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I had said something to one of the waitresses about
my cousin in Michigan, about where she had lived in Michigan, that she
lived in Harrison.

Mr. HUBERT. Which one of the waitresses did you say that to?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was two of them there at the time. I think
it was Bonnie and Little Marg, Marjory.

Mr. HUBERT. You had told them that you had a cousin called Gail?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that she lived in Harrison?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How close a cousin was that to you, a first cousin?

Mr. CRAFARD. A first cousin.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any sort of affection between you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; there was.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you told that to the girls?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I said something to them about the fact.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Gail when you stopped with your aunt?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, she knew you worked for Ruby at a Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got to see her, the news was out that Ruby had
killed Oswald?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to her about your connection with Ruby?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe we discussed it; yes. I know we talked about it.
I told her about what I had done for Jack, what kind of work I had done
with him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell her when you left?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell her or them—by them I mean your aunt and
uncle—the circumstances under which you had left?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know for sure if I did or not, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You must have told them that you left prior to Oswald’s
being shot.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I told them that I had left Saturday, about noon
Saturday.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they seem to express any concern about the matter?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you come to form in your own mind some concern about
the matter?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not other than the fact that I figured that I did say if I
heard anything in the news about looking for an employee of Ruby’s that
had left, I would go to the law officers and let them know who I was
and that I had been working for Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. But, as I understand it, then, the only one that really
discussed with you the position or the suspicion that you might be
under was your sister, and that neither your aunt nor your uncle nor
your cousin, Gail, nor your other cousin, Cliff Roberts, and his wife,
expressed any concern or discussed the matter with you at all?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall where there was anything said about
that I might be suspected of anything.

Mr. HUBERT. The only one you really talked to about that was your
sister?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You got to see her, I think, the night before the FBI came,
didn’t you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you really hadn’t had an opportunity to listen to
any radios or newspapers or to see whether anyone was looking for one
of Jack’s employees who had left suddenly?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not too much; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you had any?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just in the cars, when I was riding in the cars if they
had the radio on and the news was on I could hear whatever come over
the news that way.

Mr. HUBERT. That concern, then, that resolution of yours that if you
heard about that you would turn yourself in to the police was formed
much earlier than when you got to see your sister?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It was formed when?

Mr. CRAFARD. Shortly after I heard, found out that Ruby had shot
Oswald. I decided the fact if I heard anything in the news about
that—that they was hunting for one of Ruby’s employees—I would have
gone to the nearest law officers and told them that I had been an
employee of Ruby’s.

Mr. HUBERT. I guess we had better break for lunch.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

(Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)


TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD RESUMED

(The proceeding reconvened at 2:30 p.m.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me repeat the statement we have been making at the
beginning of every one of these sessions, that this is a continuation
of the deposition which was begun on Wednesday morning with Mr. Crafard
and, of course, you understand, Larry, that the oath which you took at
the beginning is still in effect for this deposition.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, before we proceed with the examination of further
documents, I might mention for the record that Mr. Crafard and I had
lunch this afternoon at Hogates Restaurant and we discussed informally
some of his experiences in Dallas and his impressions of the events
that have transpired since he first came to Dallas and since he left
Dallas, and I might—I am going to raise a few of the topics, and I hope
I cover them all. If I have left any of them out, I wish, Larry, that
you would clarify the record on it.

I ask you, first of all, if we had a conversation about the homosexual
relationship that you had mentioned before of Jack Ruby and George
Senator?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did I ask you whether you felt that Jack and George
were involved in a homosexual relationship between themselves?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your view of their relationship?

Mr. CRAFARD. My personal opinion is the fact that there was no
relationship between the two due to the fact, mostly because of the
fact that they did not show the general affection towards each other
that two men in this type of relationship would tend to show.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions you would like to ask on that
topic, Mr. Hubert?

Mr. HUBERT. Yesterday, you gave us the opinion that you thought both
Ruby and Senator were possibly homosexuals.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. But your point now is that they might be, but that you
didn’t perceive anything that would indicate that they practiced
homosexuality between themselves?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. There was, to my opinion, they were
both—appeared to me to have a homosexual tendency of sorts, but showed
no—but it showed no signs that there was a relationship between the two
of them in this way.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we also discussed whether or not you believed that
Jack Ruby was capable of engaging in activities which he would keep
secret from other people.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us now what your view is about his ability,
whether he is the kind of person that could have engaged in that
activity?

Mr. CRAFARD. From what I knew of his background and what I know of him,
I would say definitely that he is the type of person that could engage
in an activity of any type without anyone else having any knowledge of
it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you want to ask any questions on that?

Mr. HUBERT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We also discussed at lunch whether or not there—you have
any recollection of any connection between Ruby and Oswald, and you
mentioned to me a statement that you heard made at one time.

Would you tell us what that was?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was the one I made just as we got out of
the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.

Mr. CRAFARD. If I recall the words, I said, I told you that I believe
that before I left Dallas I had heard someone state that Oswald had
been in the Carousel Club on at least one previous occasion, that I
wasn’t positive who had made the statement, that I believed that it was
made before I left Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you indicate to me you had some idea?

Mr. CRAFARD. I thought it had been Andrew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By that, you mean Andy Armstrong?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You say before you left Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean, before you left Dallas the last time?

Mr. CRAFARD. Before I left Dallas after the assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean before you left Dallas on November 23?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. It seems to me that something had been said about
Oswald being in the club, and I figured that probably it had been
Andrew who said this because I had talked to him—been with him—more
than I had been with anybody else on that day.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen Andrew since?

Mr. CRAFARD. Only at the Ruby trial in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention it to him, then?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I hadn’t even thought about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk to you about it then?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, this statement must have been made to you
between 12:30 on the 22d and about really 5 or 6 o’clock in the
afternoon of the 23d.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see Andy after that, did you?

Mr. CRAFARD. I only saw Andy—I never saw Andy after the 22d, when
President Kennedy was assassinated.

Mr. HUBERT. That is right. Andy woke you up, you all looked at TV, and
then Jack came in and they all went off and you went to bed.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you got up the next morning and talked to Ruby.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It wasn’t Ruby who said that, was it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. It wasn’t George Senator who said it?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody else?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to anybody else other than that girl on the
phone?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. She didn’t mention it to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Who else could it be but Andy Armstrong?

Mr. CRAFARD. I said I believe I heard this statement had been made
before I left Dallas, I am not positive that it was made before I left
Dallas, I might have heard the statement afterwards, after I left
Dallas or after I went back, but I believe I heard the statement before
I left Dallas on the 23d.

Mr. HUBERT. If you did hear it before you left Dallas, it had to be
Armstrong; isn’t that right?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. There is no question about that?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Because you didn’t speak to anybody else that you could
have gotten it from?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you think it is possible that you read it in the paper?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. I didn’t read the papers on it too
much. I had a couple of the papers——

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you got it over the radio or TV or any other
news media?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Your thought is that you got the statement that Ruby—that
Oswald had been in the Carousel Club from a person?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, if it was after you left Dallas, can you help us as to
what person that might have been?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I cannot.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been any of your relatives?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been anybody you worked with?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. If it had been after I left Dallas
it would have been somebody who picked me up when I was hitchhiking.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated to me, Larry, I think in the car, that
Sunday you watched television someplace, that you may have seen this on
television Sunday.

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t see television Sunday, I was on the road all
the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t stop in any restaurants or bars and watch
television along the way?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I watched television the day of the assassination and
saw him on the morning after.

Mr. HUBERT. On Monday?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; the morning after the assassination, Saturday.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On Saturday between the time that you talked with Ruby,
when you called him at his home——

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the time that you left Dallas, did you see anybody
other than the man at the garage with whom you left the key?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not to talk to anybody; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you rode out of Dallas with that man whom
you had met at the State Fair, did you talk with him about the
assassination?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe we discussed it very much. He was telling
me about his place out on the lake more than anything else, so far as I
recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he know you had worked for Jack Ruby?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was something said about the fact that I
worked for Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this man know Jack Ruby?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that he would have mentioned having seen
Oswald at the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he ever been in the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on Saturday—or on Friday, rather, the day of the
assassination, did you and Andy and Jack Ruby watch television at the
Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. Some, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember seeing Oswald’s picture on television on
Friday?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember it, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember watching television or listening to the
radio when it was announced that Oswald had been apprehended and was
the suspect?

Mr. CRAFARD. Let’s see. I believe we heard that over the television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of who was present when you
heard that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, do you have a recollection on Friday of your
activities from the time Andy woke you up until Jack left to go to
Eva Grant’s house? Can you reconstruct for us your activities in some
detail?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just a vague outline is all I can do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to reconstruct this as best you can, what you did
first, how long you watched television, and so forth.

Mr. CRAFARD. I had the television on the rest of the day up until
about—it must have been about 7 or 7:30 when I turned the television
off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the television set located?

Mr. CRAFARD. In Jack’s office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How big an office did he have?

Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, about 10 by 10 or 10 by 12.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have chairs in there?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had a couch, a desk, and a chair in front of his desk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you spend a good bit of the day in that office
watching television?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. After you got up, when did you first go into
that office and start to watch television?

Mr. CRAFARD. Almost immediately.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you stay in there?

Mr. CRAFARD. We turned the television on and there was nothing on the
television just right at that time, on the channel we had it on. We
switched channels, while the set was warming up we went out front and
listened to Andy’s radio until the television warmed up, and then we
watched television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack Ruby wasn’t there at that time?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you stood in front of the television?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, we stood and watched the television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it possible to sit in Jack’s office and watch
television?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stand there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just a couple of minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you sit, and where was the television set?

Mr. CRAFARD. We sat on the couch and the set was in the corner behind
the door. There was a filing cabinet between it and the wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And sitting on the couch you could watch the television
set?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have to close the door in order to watch the
television set?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a telephone in that office?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far away, how many extensions were there to the
telephone?

Mr. CRAFARD. There was three of them altogether.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There were three extensions or was there a telephone——

Mr. CRAFARD. The telephone and two extensions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Where were the two extensions in relation to
the telephone in Jack’s office?

Mr. CRAFARD. There was one by the bar and one by the door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far away would that be from Jack’s office, each of
those?

Mr. CRAFARD. The first one, the one by the door would probably be 20,
maybe 20, 25 feet from the office. The other one would be maybe about
10 feet further, between 30 and 35 feet, I would say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You and Andy placed yourselves in front of that television
set?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you recall happening, what was the first thing,
do you have any recollection of what you saw on television, how things
transpired on television?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. I believe they were at the hospital.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Pardon?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they were at the hospital when we turned the
television on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You recall seeing some scenes at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I can recall seeing some scenes but I am not sure
whether it was as soon as we turned the television on or afterwards
during that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you recall seeing on television before Jack Ruby
came into the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t really recall what we saw on television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were, between the time you turned that
television set on and sat down and watched it and Jack came in, did
you leave the office, did you do other duties in the club, or just
watch TV?

Mr. CRAFARD. We just watched television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When Jack came in, were you people seated in
his office?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When Jack arrived, did you go out into the outer part of
the club to talk with Jack, or did you remain in the office?

Mr. CRAFARD. We went out by the front door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?

Mr. CRAFARD. More room for all of us to sit down who was in the office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you watch television from the front door?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you keep abreast of the news while you were out there
by the front door?

Mr. CRAFARD. Andy had his transistor radio on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say it was between the time that you
and Andy sat there and watched television before Jack came in?

Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn’t really say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a clock in Jack’s office?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall ever looking at that clock while you were
watching television?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; the clock wasn’t—It was one you had to wind, and it
wasn’t wound half the time. We didn’t pay any attention to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ordinarily wear a watch?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t, there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the period before Jack Ruby came in, did you get a meal
of any sort, any food?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you and Andy discuss the events on television as you
sat and watched it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I imagine we did. I don’t recall saying anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did anybody come into the club before Jack arrived?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any of the female employees of the club
arriving at the club on the day, on the 22d?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you think specifically about Tammi True, do you
recall if she came?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you say you don’t recall, that is not the same
as saying that she didn’t come in?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you would not make the statement, or would
you, that she didn’t come in?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would not make that statement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about as to any of the other girls—Joy Dale, for
example?

Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn’t make the statement of the fact that none of
them came into the club. I would say it was possible that any of them
came into the club, but I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if any of them had stayed for any length of time, 5,
10 minutes, or more, do you think you would have remembered it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you don’t recall anybody coming in and staying as long
as 10 minutes?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When Jack came in and you people sat out at the
front of the club, how far were you seated from the telephones?

Mr. CRAFARD. We was right beside the telephone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the one near the door?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You would have been, then, about 10 feet away from the one
at the bar?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you sat there with Jack, did you all sort of keep
your ears glued to the radio, or was there a general conversation?

Mr. CRAFARD. We was talking. We had the radio up loud enough so we
could hear, but we was talking.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a continuous conversation, or were there long
pauses in the conversation?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall. I don’t remember. We might have stopped,
we might just sat there 10 or 15 minutes at a time; I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How long did Jack stay there with you?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember. It seems to me he was there probably a
couple of hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think Jack was there a couple of hours with you in the
club?

Mr. CRAFARD. He might have been; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, while Jack was there, did you ever go back into his
office and watch television?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe we did; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of how long you remained with
Jack in his office watching television?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or how long it was after he came in that you went into his
office to watch television?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. It seems to me like it wasn’t very long after he came
before we went back into the office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of talking with Jack about
the dog that you were going to send to California?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not on that day, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you had talked about that, would you remember it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I would have, I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Certainly the knowledge that the suspected killer of the
President of the United States had been in the Carousel where you
worked would have come to you as a pretty heavy shock; isn’t that a
fair statement?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I suggest to you, then, that you can remember just when
that shock hit you.

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact, Larry, that you can tell us whether it
came from Armstrong definitely or that you just picked it up on one
of these rides later on because, as I say, it had to hit you and you
admitted it was a shock.

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether you were alone with the person who
told it to you, or was anybody else present?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that, either, sir. Most of that day is
very vague in my mind.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your best guess—that Andy Armstrong told you?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, if it had come from Andy Armstrong, it would
have made more of an impression on you than if it had come from some
person who had heard it as a rumor or over the radio, wouldn’t it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, putting your mind to it in that way, can’t you help us
a bit more as to who actually told you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I can’t. I have thought about it. I can’t recall
exactly who it was or exactly where it was I heard it. I believe it was
before I left Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. And if it was before you left Dallas, you already told us
it had to be Armstrong?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I come to, in effect, the question I asked you this
morning, Larry. I don’t want you to feel bound by what you said at
another time unless it was the truth.

Mr. CRAFARD. I realize that.

Mr. HUBERT. I suggest to you that the real motivation for leaving
Dallas was that you had found out that Oswald had been in the club, and
that the matter was getting a little too thick for you and you wanted
out of it.

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. That is not true?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; that is not true.

Mr. HUBERT. You say that is not true even if it is possible that
Armstrong told you that Oswald had been in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. If that is the case it was a subconscious
thought. It wasn’t conscious to where I would remember it. It would
have been a subconscious thought that it was the case.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t understand you when you say it was a subconscious
thought.

Mr. CRAFARD. Just that. It wouldn’t have been something that I thought
about for any period of time. It would have been something that I
had heard it and it just, I didn’t even think about it, and then
subconsciously that could have something to do with my leaving, but on
a conscious level I will say no.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you recall discussing it with this person who told
you, in any way, so that you ascertained from the person how they knew?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Had it been Armstrong wouldn’t you have asked him, “Well,
how do you know that, Andy? When did you see him? Where did you see
him? Who was he with?” You would have asked those questions, wouldn’t
you?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would have asked him how he knew for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall asking the person who told you that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, if you had heard that from some of the people
that you had been riding with it would have had to be after Ruby had
shot Oswald, wouldn’t it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it seems so. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have known about
Ruby being involved with him.

Mr. HUBERT. That is correct. But you didn’t find out about Ruby being
involved until Monday morning.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, it had to be after that so far as you are
concerned?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, if I wasn’t in Dallas. I believe that I
heard the statement before I left Dallas on the 23d.

Mr. HUBERT. That being the case, unless you want to tell us some other
things, it had to be Armstrong.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. That is all I can—I can’t say for sure who
it was, and I can’t even say for sure that I heard the statement before
I left Dallas. But I believe that it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when it was that you first began to think
about this statement?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with the people in Michigan, your relatives
in Michigan about it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember, sir. I might have, with my sister, but I
don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You told me, I believe, in the automobile that you had not
been aware until I mentioned it to you in the car that Bill DeMar had
made the statement that he saw Oswald in the club.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think, if someone had told you, one of your
relatives or somebody like that had told you, one of Ruby’s performers
or somebody who worked for Ruby had said that he saw Oswald there, do
you think you would have remembered that kind of information being
conveyed to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. I might have remembered something about the fact that one
of them had said, that one of his employees had said, that Oswald had
been there; but I wouldn’t necessarily remember who it was who had said
it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if somebody said to you one of Ruby’s entertainers
claims he saw Oswald in the club, what would your reaction have been?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would have been that——

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t know which entertainer it was or employee who
said that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn’t really know whether it was true or not. I
probably would state the fact that I had never saw him there personally
that I knew of.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me get through with this and see if this won’t help you
out.

If you had heard this statement that Oswald had been in the Carousel,
before you knew that Ruby had shot him, that would have had one
reaction on you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, that the man happened to be in the club.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. If you had heard it after you knew Ruby had shot Oswald,
I suggest to you that that would have been an entirely different
reaction, because then it ties in Ruby and the club. Now doesn’t
that assist you by determining what your reaction was when you heard
it, whether it was the first type of reaction or the second type of
reaction, or do you agree with me that your reaction would have been
different depending upon when you heard it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it would have been; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you accept my version that there would be two different
types along the lines I have said?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe there would have been.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your reaction, the first or the second?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t really remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, when you talked with the FBI on Thanksgiving Day——

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe the FBI asked you did you know any connection
between Ruby and Oswald.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And I believe your answer at that time was that you did
not.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you talked with the FBI were you being as frank and
straight-forward with them as you are with us right now?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; as much as I—to the best of my knowledge I told them
nothing but the truth the same as I am doing with you gentlemen.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention to them that you then knew that someone had
told you that Oswald had been in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe I did because I—I don’t believe I did. I
didn’t recall it.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you stating to us that you would not have recalled a
statement made to you about Oswald being in the club, which statement
had, by any hypothesis, already been made to you, when they asked you
if you knew of any connection between them?

Mr. CRAFARD. The thing is that if I remembered it, I would have said
so, told, said something to them. If I didn’t say anything to them, I
didn’t remember the fact.

Mr. HUBERT. They asked you if you knew of any connection between them,
didn’t they?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe they did.

Mr. HUBERT. And you then knew that someone had told you he had been in
the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe they did.

Mr. HUBERT. Why didn’t you tell them that you knew that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I evidently didn’t remember it.

Mr. HUBERT. But you have already stated that this thing made a great
impression upon you.

Mr. CRAFARD. I know that, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry——

Mr. HUBERT. Let me follow this through a bit. Didn’t they, in fact, ask
you if you had heard the rumor that Oswald had been in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know exactly how he asked me about it, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t he ask you, in fact, if you had ever seen him in the
club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he asked me that question; yes. I believe he
might have. My answer would have been——

Mr. HUBERT. Is your statement to us if he asked you that question it
would not have recalled to your memory that someone had told you that
he had been in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. My statement is that it did not at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you a little bit frightened when the FBI talked with
you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you at all concerned that your flight from Dallas
might make you a suspect of some sort?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe—I don’t remember having any such belief;
no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your feeling towards the FBI when they talked to
you?

Mr. CRAFARD. That they were talking to me because of the fact that I
had worked for Ruby, and they wanted to know what I knew about Ruby’s
movements in hopes that there might be something there that would help
them in their investigation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time when you talked to the FBI you formed a
tentative opinion about the connection between Ruby and Oswald or the
motivation for Jack’s doing what he did?

Mr. CRAFARD. I figured, formed the opinion, myself, as far as I could
figure Jack must have been out of his mind to shoot Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this, would you say this was a strong opinion that you
had?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I will say that it is the sort of opinion I have now,
it has been right along ever since I found out that Ruby had shot
Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But in spite of having that opinion that there was
somewhere along the line you began to think if there could be any
connection between Ruby and Oswald?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have considered the fact that there was a connection;
yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you start to think about this?

Mr. CRAFARD. I imagine I more likely thought about it as soon as I
found out or just shortly after I found out that Ruby had shot Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In trying to think about that connection, have you been
thinking about this rather regularly since then?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I have pretty well forgot just about, even, almost
forgot about it entirely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say it has been that you have been—have
forgotten about any thoughts you might have had that there could be a
connection between Ruby and Oswald?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I have just almost completely—I haven’t had a
thought about any of this since I appeared at the trial. I was of the
opinion that I was through with it and that I would just as soon forget
about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about when you started to work in the oil field up
there in Michigan for the drilling company? At that time, did you
ponder from time to time whether there was any connection between Ruby
and Oswald?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember doing so; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Keeping these sort of questions in mind, can you tell us
when it was before today that you first remembered that somebody might
have told you that Oswald had been at the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I know definitely that I was told by somebody that Oswald
had been in the club, but I haven’t given that fact too much thought
until we was talking this afternoon during the lunch break there, and
it seemed to me the statement had been made to me before I left Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am asking you when you remembered that statement. Keep
in mind I am distinguishing between the time you actually heard the
statement made and when you first remembered it again.

Mr. CRAFARD. I remembered hearing the statement that Oswald had been in
the club, but I believe there was something in the news about the fact
that he had been in the club two or three times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, when you saw this in the news, did that bring
to you a recollection that someone had also told you this independently?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall it doing so; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is it possible that the recollection that you are
giving us here is simply something that you really didn’t hear anybody
tell you but that you just read in the newspapers?

Mr. CRAFARD. It could be that it is mixed up in my own mind about the
fact that it come out that way, but I wouldn’t know for sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not sure now whether you independently remember
somebody telling you this or whether you just read about it in the
newspaper, and now are confused as to whether your source is from
somebody telling you or from the newspaper?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am almost positive that the statement was made to me by
a person, but it could have been that, like I say it could have been,
after I left Dallas, after it came out that Ruby had shot Oswald,
somebody had heard the statement over the television or read it in the
newspapers themselves, and made the statement to me that they had heard
that he had been in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. I come back to the point I made a little while ago, and I
would like you to consider it again because apparently, as you say,
you have not given this matter a great deal of thought up until now. I
suggest to you again that your reaction when you heard it would have
been quite different if you had heard that rumor about Oswald being in
the club before Ruby shot Oswald than it would have been if you had
heard it after he shot him.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now that reaction of yours is, I think, the key to your
recollection of it, and I suggest that you put your mind to it, Larry,
to see what—to have a recollection, if you can, which is true, of
course, but which will reflect what your reaction was. It has got to be
a different reaction between the two, and I think you have agreed with
me on that.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I do. I believe that—I am not sure whether it was
hearing a statement there when it was made to me or hearing it over the
television or something like that. It was something about the statement
where I said that if he had been I didn’t know about it, and I didn’t
believe Jack did either or something of that effect.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, you are telling us then that at the time you
heard this you made a comment?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. You made a comment to the person who told you that Oswald
had been in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And at the same time you made that comment that you hadn’t
seen Oswald in the club, you said you didn’t believe that Ruby did it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t believe that Ruby had saw him in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. That must have been then after Ruby was involved?

Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That would put it after Monday morning, November 25?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So, according to that it couldn’t have been before you left
Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. According to that; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But do you still, in light of that do you still, have the
recollection that you did hear it before you left Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this, Larry: If you had heard this before
you left Dallas, was your feeling nevertheless about Ruby’s insanity
or state of mind so strong at the point when you learned that Ruby
shot Oswald that you would have regarded such a statement as being of
minimal importance or was your initial reaction to Ruby’s having shot
Oswald a sort of quizzical one in which you really hadn’t made up your
mind about the man?

Mr. CRAFARD. My original reaction when I first heard about it was the
fact I couldn’t really believe that he had done it. I just couldn’t
believe, I couldn’t make myself believe, that Jack had done it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that? Was there something about Jack——

Mr. CRAFARD. From what I knew of him he didn’t strike me as the type of
person that would do so. I later made up my mind that, I come to the
opinion, if he had done it, if he had done it, he must have been insane
when he had done it, before I saw anything on television about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it then that your initial reaction that Jack
couldn’t have done this also reflected what you had seen of him on
Friday and Saturday, that he wasn’t in such—didn’t appear to you to be
in such—a state of mind at that time as being one who wanted to go out
and kill.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And who wasn’t so upset about the killing of the President
that he would be motivated by grief or something like that to do such a
thing.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you didn’t see him crying or weeping or emotionally,
terribly emotionally, upset about the President?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t actually see him crying. His eyes were very
red as if he had been crying the last time I saw him on Friday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or is that Saturday morning?

Mr. CRAFARD. Friday. But then again it struck me so hard that when I
finally realized that it really had happened, it struck me so hard,
that I almost cried myself. I believe there was a lot of people
throughout the country, men and women alike, that cried when they heard
about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But still other than that reaction which you saw on Jack,
there seemed to be nothing about Jack that made him appear any more
grief stricken than any of the rest of you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack the kind of a person who was given to concealing
his emotions?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not so far as I know; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about concealing his hostility toward other people,
did you ever have any indication that he concealed his hostility toward
other people?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. In fact, I would say it would be the other way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any people that he regarded as enemies in
Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. One person that he absolutely didn’t have any liking for
was this one MC from one of the other clubs that come up there once in
a while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack display his feelings toward that guy?

Mr. CRAFARD. On several occasions, on two or three occasions, he told
the guy he didn’t care to have him around the club, and he just as soon
he didn’t come to the club, and on one occasion he told the man to
leave the club and not to come back again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But after the man was out of his sight was Jack the kind
of person that he continued to talk about him and complain to the
employees or other people that he was with about somebody who was—about
whom he was annoyed or upset with?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he went on for a few minutes about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you about his feelings toward his
sister Eva?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can remember; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you weren’t aware of any hard feelings between Eva and
Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his feelings toward Abe Weinstein, the man who
ran the Colony Club, did Jack discuss those feelings?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. From what I can remember any time Jack talked to Mr.
Weinstein they got along fairly good.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So am I correct in understanding the way you describe Jack
when he had somebody that he didn’t like or had some hostility toward,
that he would only display this in the presence of that person in
solving some problem with the individual face to face?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me get back to the afternoon of the 22d again. What
time did Andrew Armstrong leave, do you remember?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember the exact time; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, about?

Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe 3:30, 4 o’clock, maybe a little later.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he leave before Jack left?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was after Jack left.

Mr. HUBERT. And you never saw him again really until you saw him in the
courthouse in Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Later that night you were with Jack; weren’t you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, everybody was reading, talking about
Oswald.

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure; sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that Ruby had a paper, was reading a
newspaper?

Mr. CRAFARD. He more than likely did, but I don’t remember it, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you are aware that Oswald had shot the President or
that it was believed that he had?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were talking with Ruby about the whole thing,
weren’t you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I imagine.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, if at that time you knew from Armstrong that
Oswald had been in the club, don’t you think you would have mentioned
to Jack, “Say, you know somebody says Oswald was in the club?”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe I would have mentioned the fact that I had
been told that Oswald had been in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that help your memory as to when you got this remark?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; it doesn’t. The fact it even makes me more positive
that it was after I left Dallas before I heard about it, because if I
had said something like that to Jack I believe I would have remembered
it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I’ll tell you what I suggest you do, since the matter
has only been really brought to your attention in the last hour or
so, you know, I suggest that you give it some more thought and try
to reconcile the different possibilities that exist as to when this
information came to you in light of the questions we have asked you and
the possibilities that have been expressed. Would you do that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I have been doing so right along.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s go to something else, and we can come back to that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think it might be well to let it rest for a while. I am
going to hand you, Larry, a Xerox copy of pages out of the notebook,
and I have marked this “Washington, D.C., deposition C. L. Crafard
Exhibit 5203, April 9, 1964,” and I am going to sign my name to it.
Now, I want you to take this Exhibit 5203 and look at those pages and
leaf through it and tell me if you have ever seen that before.

Mr. CRAFARD. There are nine pages in this one. I believe this is a
notebook that Jack carried in his pocket.

(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5203 for
identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you believe that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I recall seeing a notebook with these tear-out tabs on it
that he carried. I am not sure whether this is the one or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this Xerox copy which I have handed you is marked on
the cover page “This is a Robinson Reminder.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then there are what you call tear sheets.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does the first one say?

Mr. CRAFARD. “Jot it down....”

Mr. GRIFFIN. The second tear sheet, tear-out sheet?

Mr. CRAFARD. “Do it....”

Mr. GRIFFIN. The third?

Mr. CRAFARD. “Tear it out....”

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the fourth?

Mr. CRAFARD. “Live notes only.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Those are all the tear-out tabs on what appear to be on
the front cover?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting on that?

Mr. CRAFARD. It is printing, and it is pretty hard to recognize it. I
believe this was Jack’s notebook. It is his handwriting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You believe it is his handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is not the notebook, is it, that you transferred
entries into from your small Penway spiral notebook?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; it is not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you believe Jack carried this notebook in his pocket?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let us go through these entries and see if you recognize
any of them.

Mr. CRAFARD. There are a few in there I know the names of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Sandy?

Mr. CRAFARD. That has no meaning to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The second entry is A. F. McKnight.

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sue Pepper?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she had been a stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she employed as a stripper while you were there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard some talk about her?

Mr. CRAFARD. The name sounds like one of the girls I mentioned as a
stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Caroline Walker?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Strike that. Jack Yanover?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Caroline Walker?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Harold Tannebaum?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Margaret Caldwell?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this Kirk Dial or Kirk Diaz?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say Dial.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of him?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. James Herbert?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jules Herbert?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you read what is written under Jules Herbert?

Mr. CRAFARD. It looks to me like “Sherry care of Lincoln-Houston.” The
name “Sherry,” I believe she was a stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Gigi?

Mr. CRAFARD. She was a stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But not employed there while you were there?

Mr. CRAFARD. But not employed there while I was there. I have heard
mention of the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Wally Rack?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t remember the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Doctor’s Club, do you know what that was?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that appear to be, Linda Kubox?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say it looks like K-u-b-o-x to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of that person?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Betty Robbins?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Iwana Birdwell?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Ferris?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Skip Hutcheson?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was some, one young fellow that Jack had
staying there before I went there they referred to as Skip. I don’t
know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Skip Hutcheson you believe is the fellow who sort
of performed the job you did before you came?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you came was Hutcheson there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it had been 2 or 3 months, I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It had been 2 or 3 months that had passed between the
time——

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lynd Chenalt?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about W. O. Chenalt?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this Brenda?

Mr. CRAFARD. It appears to be, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a girl named Brenda there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t remember of any.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And is that Augie?

Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a fellow or a girl named Augie?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; the name means nothing to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about John, is that Rogers?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say so. It don’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Shirley Bruce?

Mr. CRAFARD. The name Shirley means nothing to me, but the last name
would have been Little Lynn’s correct name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, her correct name was Bruce?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I thought her last name was Carlin?

Mr. CRAFARD. Her husband’s name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Bruce Carlin? Bill Willis?

Mr. CRAFARD. The name sounds familiar, but I can’t put any meaning to
it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he play in the band?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he was one of the band players.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Gino Skaggs?

Mr. CRAFARD. Means nothing to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dottie Walters?

Mr. CRAFARD. That means nothing to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Barbara Brown?

Mr. CRAFARD. That means nothing to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tom Palmer?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had been employed at the club. We received some letters
at the club for him. That is all I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What had been his employment?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he connected with AGVA?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Sandra Moran?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is Kathy Kay.

Mr. CRAFARD. She was one of the strippers while I was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And Andy?

Mr. CRAFARD. That would be Andrew Armstrong, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Andrea Dalk?

Mr. CRAFARD. The name means nothing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about this Kathy?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember the name at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lorri Womack?

Mr. CRAFARD. The name doesn’t mean anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Margaret?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Here is Judy Oberlin?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. George, Sherman, Tex.?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Betty Kelley?

Mr. CRAFARD. That doesn’t mean anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Eberhardt?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Russ Knight?

Mr. CRAFARD. Russ Knight—that doesn’t mean anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Charles Senator?

Mr. CRAFARD. That doesn’t mean anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The House of Loan?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Joe, Whitehall 2-5424?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Jeannie?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jeanine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jeanine.

Mr. CRAFARD. She worked when I first went to work for Jack, she worked
as a cocktail waitress and then she also was an amateur stripper. She
went to work for Jack as a stripper while I was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What name did she strip under?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was under the first name of Jeanine. She used
a French last name. She was of French descent.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ralph Paul?

Mr. CRAFARD. Ralph Paul.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about American Airlines, and Tuesday, October 9, No.
985?

Mr. CRAFARD. That would mean nothing to me. George Senator is the next
one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, we have talked about George. Johnny Hayden?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Joy Herrod?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Joe Slayton?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wally Weston?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was the comedian, I believe. Jack employed him for a
short while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Campbell-Corrigan, building repair. Did somebody do some
building repairs for him?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that. Corrigan, doesn’t mean anything to
me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Chuck Isaacs?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I can’t read this.

Mr. CRAFARD. Davis Kitter—something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Kitter something or other.

Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t recognize that?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Earl Wilson?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tony Turner?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tom Busch?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; it doesn’t mean anything to me either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Joe Cook?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Barbara Hickman?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tammi True?

Mr. CRAFARD. Of course, she was one of the strippers who worked for
Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Here is Kay again, but you wouldn’t know what Kay that
would be?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Nicki?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dolores Meridith?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wiliford Jackson?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Phil Olian?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean a thing to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wendy Knight?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wanda?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Janice Anderson?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ann Petta?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. L. H. McIntyre?

Mr. CRAFARD. Nothing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jim Brown?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Carlos Camorgo, Mexico City?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything. The only thing I believe he had
a stripper, pictures of a stripper, from Mexico or South America, that
he had some papers from her indicating she had been there sometime in
the past.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You believe he employed a stripper from Mexico?

Mr. CRAFARD. She was either from Mexico or South America.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long ago had he employed this stripper?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know how long ago. I saw some pictures with her
name on it, Spanish name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Billie?

Mr. CRAFARD. That doesn’t mean anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Toni Rebel?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was something said about a Toni Rebel who
was a stripper or a girl who went by the name of Toni Rebel on the
stage.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Bill Towney?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Affiliated Polygraph? That is a lie detector.
Did you ever hear anything from Jack on that?

Mr. CRAFARD. The only thing I can think of there he had a sign there on
the bar that if anything come up of questionable or anything was stolen
in the club or anything all of the employees would be required to take
a polygraph test. I don’t know whether that was Affiliated or what.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he hang this out where the patrons could see it?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was hung on the front of the cash register.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of anybody being asked to take a
polygraph test?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Shirley Nole?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Margo Larve?

Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Kitty Keel?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mary Martin?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Gail or Carol?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ethel A. Piersol?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Gail Thompson?

Mr. CRAFARD. Nothing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Margie?

Mr. CRAFARD. That would have evidently been Little Marge, the one
waitress.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Peggy Steele?

Mr. CRAFARD. She had been a stripper, she was a stripper who had worked
there at the Carousel Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. John M. Crawford?

Mr. CRAFARD. It means nothing to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Huntsville State Penitentiary, Huntsville. Did you ever
hear him talk about anybody?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Linda?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Avrum?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sherry?

Mr. CRAFARD. She had been a stripper or was a stripper that had worked
for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Henry Segel?

Mr. CRAFARD. He would—Segel as it is used there wouldn’t mean anything
to me. But the address he has got it, Chicago, Ill.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of a Segel that Jack——

Mr. CRAFARD. Spelled differently than that, Segal Liquor Store is where
he bought champagne and other wines.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Roy Pike?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You never knew Mickey Ryan by the name of Roy Pike?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Lisa Starling?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Stewart’s Photo?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Gail Hall, Monroe, La.

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Luke of the Times Herald?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. H. G. Tiger?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. E. Fletcher?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Darrell Williams?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Vivian?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Statler Barbershop.

Mr. CRAFARD. Just it was a barbershop in the Statler Hilton.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that where Jack got his hair cut?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dovie?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What we have done is gone through all of the pages 1
through 9 of Exhibit 5203, and we have read off every name that
is in there. Now, I am going to hand you what has been marked
for identification as Exhibit 5204, and I have written on this,
“Washington, D.C., deposition C. L. Crafard, Exhibit 5204, April
9, 1964,” and I will sign this in pencil. Will you look at that?
It purports to be a notebook, and on the cover is simply the word
“Addresses.” It consists of 20 pages and, as I say, this is a Xerox
copy of the cover and those pages. Would you look at that and tell me
whether you have ever seen that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe this to be a copy of a notebook that Jack had,
kept, in his drawer in his desk.

(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5204 for
identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the notebook that you transferred items from your
Penway Spiral into?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that the notebook which is represented by Exhibit 5203
you believe Jack kept in his pocket?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And this notebook, which is represented by Exhibit 5204,
you believe he kept in his desk?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, or he might have kept in his pocket. He kept two or
three different books in his pocket at one time, but I believe that one
was in his desk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And he also kept on his desk a much larger Penway notebook?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But he didn’t have the larger Penway notebook until——

Mr. CRAFARD. Until after I went to work for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CRAFARD. There was another one. The Penway notebook was about 6
inches long, and about 4½ inches wide.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let us look at these names in here.

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recognize any.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize a single name? Did you know Cecil
Hamlin?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what the Century Distributors, Inc., are?

Mr. CRAFARD. Century Distributors, Inc.?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; what are they?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever know Jack to be interested in any
prizefighters?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I knew of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of a Willie Love?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack talk of Lewis McWillie?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. L. J. McWillie?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet a fellow named Lawrence Meyers?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet any of Jack’s friends from Chicago?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when you were at the State fair ever
meeting any other people with Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when the first time was that you met Joyce
McDonald?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was at the fairgrounds. She came out with Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet her out there; did you meet any men out there
with her?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t—it seems like there was a couple of men with them,
but I was never introduced to them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will state for the record that this notebook which we
have consists of 20 pages and those 20 pages include the cover which
is marked “Addresses,” and that is page No. 1, and the remainder of the
pages are numbered consecutively through 20. I might also indicate that
on each page of this exhibit, with the exception of page 1 and page 20,
two pages are photographed open, so that would make a total of almost
40 pages of actual written addresses. I hand you, Larry, what has been
marked as “Exhibit 5205, Washington, D.C., C. L. Crafard, April 9,
1964,” and I have put my signature on there. This is a photograph of
a group of people, and there is an arrow pointing toward one of the
people. First of all, can you tell us if you recognize the place in
which that photograph was taken?

Mr. CRAFARD. It appears to be the Carousel Club.

(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5205 for
identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything about it that looks like the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. You can just see the portion of the runway across here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is in the lower left-hand corner?

Mr. CRAFARD. Lower left-hand corner of the picture, and the Carousel
was the only club in Dallas to have runways, to seat the customers on
runways. These gentlemen are sitting right on the runway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you see anybody in that picture that you recognize?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. I see one of the waitresses back in the
background. I can’t make out which one it is on the upper right-hand
portion, standing holding a tray, but I can’t make out who it is though.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an arrow directed toward one of the individuals
in that picture. Do you ever recall seeing that individual in the club
before?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. I don’t recall seeing him at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that picture of yourself?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; definitely not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say definitely not?

Mr. CRAFARD. One thing, the clothing. He is wearing a checkered shirt.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CRAFARD. Any time I was in the club I wore a suit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You always wore a suit?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I sometimes took my dress jacket off and put on a
gold livery jacket on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever dressed in a sweater of any sort there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you wear a tie while you were in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. This gentleman is wearing what would appear to be a
sport shirt, and I would say he is an older gentleman than I am.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked for purposes of
identification as “Washington, D.C., C. L. Crafard. April 9, 1964,
Exhibit 5206,” and I have signed my name to it. Do you recognize the
place where that photograph was taken?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly on the stage of the Carousel Club looking down the
center runway.

(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5206 for
identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you see anybody in that picture that you know?

Mr. CRAFARD. Excuse me; that is looking down the side runway on the
left side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize anybody in that picture?

Mr. CRAFARD. The young lady on the stage with her back to us, I
believe, is the stripper known as Tammi True.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Blond hair?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is—how about the man who appears to be dressed in a
tuxedo and standing on the stage; do you recognize him?

Mr. CRAFARD. He looks like the comedian known, that I can only remember
the name as, Johnny. He worked with a couple of puppets.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the man in the checked shirt?

Mr. CRAFARD. Only from the fact that it was his picture in the—his
photo in the previous picture that was designated with an arrow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that an accurate, true and accurate, picture of what
the inside of the Carousel looked like at the time that you worked
there?

Mr. CRAFARD. From that angle; yes. If you like, I can explain what they
was doing when this picture was taken.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us what that depicts?

Mr. CRAFARD. It depicts the, what they call, raffling, you might say;
they give tickets out at the door, and then they spin a roulette wheel,
and the man with the numbers on the ticket that correspond with the
ticket on the roulette wheel wins the prizes. That is what they were
doing at that time; giving away prizes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do they give away prizes every night?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; weekends mostly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about during the week?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not too often. Sometimes they did. It depends on the size
of the crowd.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did Jack get his prizes?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give away twist boards?

Mr. CRAFARD. He gave away twist boards, Rusty Warren records, two
bottles of champagne, Wilkinson sword-edged blades, and stuffed animals.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give away all of those items every night they had a
raffle or different nights?

Mr. CRAFARD. He would give whoever won their choice. They would have,
give away, three prizes each night, and everyone would have their
choices out of the prizes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as “C. L.
Crafard, April 1964, 5207,” and I have signed my name to it. That is a
photograph. Can you tell me where that picture was taken?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was taken in Mr. Ruby’s office.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the arrangement of chair and desk and what appears to
be a couch in the foreground the arrangement that existed at the time
that you worked there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. This couch here is part of a sectional that was
turned crosswise of the office, the other portion being against the
wall on the left-hand side of the picture, which is where you cannot
see it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are the people in this photograph looking in the direction
of the TV camera, I mean of the TV set?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say the woman as I am looking at the left of the
picture, Joy Dale, is looking more in the direction than the rest of
them, the TV set in the corner over this way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a TV set as you look from Jack Ruby’s position in
the photograph. It would be off at the far wall in the left-hand corner?

Mr. CRAFARD. To the left of him; yes, it would be to his left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a door shown behind Jack Ruby there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; that is the door connecting his office to what was my
room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, in order to get into your room, you had to walk
through Jack’s office?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I had a door off in the hall to my room, but this was
a connecting door from his office to my room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is the door that enters Jack’s office?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would be almost immediately behind the girl on the
right-hand side, who is Little Lynn.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that door sort of opened up through the middle of the
wall or at one end of the wall?

Mr. CRAFARD. More or less to the end of the wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s mark on there, then, Little Lynn on the side that
she is on, and Jack Ruby in the middle; I am marking this on the back.
And Joy Dale. Now, the background of this picture, there appear to be
tacked up on the door a number of papers. Was that customary?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had a lot of different papers tacked, fastened to the
door there, hanging on it. He had a couple of pegs in the door he put
them on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of papers did he keep up there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly old bills and stuff like that that he just stuck up
on kind of a wire peg that he put them on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me show you what I have marked as Washington, D.C.,
C. L. Crafard, April 9, 1964, Exhibit 5208, and I have signed it. Was
that photograph taken at the Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. Do you want me to describe it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; would you?

Mr. CRAFARD. It shows Jack Ruby standing on the stage holding the mike
talking to the audience, and they are clapping him; applauding him, I
should say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when that photograph was taken?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember the date, but this photograph would have
been taken at the same time we had a photographer from a magazine
taking pictures. It would have been taken by him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How often did Jack M.C.; appear on stage?

Mr. CRAFARD. One or two nights. I believe one evening, one or two
evenings we was without an M.C. and Jack done the M.C.-ing. It was a
couple of evenings.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When there was ordinarily an M.C. there, do you ever
recall Jack going up on stage?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. It wasn’t his custom.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Looking at that picture, do you recognize anybody else in
the photograph?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to look at what I have marked in the same
fashion Exhibit 5209, and tell me if you recognize anybody in there?

First of all, let me rephrase the question. Do you recognize where that
was taken?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. It wasn’t taken in the Carousel Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recognize anybody in the picture?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I would say this picture was taken in a place where
the theme was more or less western theme than anything else. I remember
I commented to the other gentleman when he showed me a picture, we were
looking at the costume she had on, wasn’t anything I remembered.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked in the same fashion
Exhibit 5210. Do you recognize where that photograph was taken?

Mr. CRAFARD. This photograph was taken in the Carousel Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize who any people in those photographs are?

Mr. CRAFARD. A stripper. I don’t remember her name right now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the left-hand side, is that the same girl?

Mr. CRAFARD. The same girl in another one of the photographs. It looks
like Tammi True.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There are dogs in that—dachshund dogs in that photograph?

Mr. CRAFARD. These dogs belong to Jack Ruby. We placed them on the
stage as more or less the photographer was here, as more or less a
photography stunt more than anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they regularly used in acts?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; only on this one occasion they were used more or less
like, say, for a photographic stunt.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever been up on the stage while the lights were
on, while an act was in progress?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not while an act was in progress. Usually, during the
roulette wheel, I would put the prizes out and I’d take them off when
it was over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would the stage be lighted in the same way for the drawing
of prizes as it would be when an M.C. was on stage?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would only the stage be lit or would the patrons, the
customer area, also be?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just the stage.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to look out into the audience
from the stage when the roulette wheel, when the drawing, was in
progress?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you see faces in the audience?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was pretty hard to make out any faces unless they were
sitting right next, and then you wouldn’t recognize them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Unless they were sitting right next to the runway of the
stage?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there were——

Mr. CRAFARD. Excuse me a minute, please.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CRAFARD. You can just see a gentleman standing on the right-hand
corner of some of these photographs. This gentleman was the M.C. at
that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who he was?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was Johnny. Yes; there is the box, one of his
boxes. It was Johnny, but I am not sure what his last name was. There
is a woman in one of these pictures; I believe I can just see myself,
but it is not clear enough to make out. I believe it is me standing
there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This picture that you are looking at, this large
photograph, is actually a series of small photographs?

Mr. CRAFARD. It is actually a series of small photographs. It would be
the first and second photograph in the middle series of photographs
where you can just vaguely see me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want to show you what I have marked in the same
fashion Exhibit 5211. Do you recognize any of the people in that
photograph, that set of photographs?

Mr. CRAFARD. There is Johnny on the stage, the first one in the first
series. I can see Johnny on the stage again.

The next one shows Johnny.

The next one shows Johnny and, I believe it is Tammi True.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is the heavy man in the short-sleeved shirt that is
shown?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember his name. He was to the club on several
different occasions. He always sat in the same place because he was
such a heavy man nobody could get around him, such a big one.

In the middle series of photographs shows Tammi True in each of them.

And on the outside series of photographs is Little Lynn in Jack’s
office holding some stuffed animals.

The bottom picture on the right-hand series shows Johnny with one of
his puppets.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this about the fat man in the short
sleeves. Was he a friend of Jack’s?

Mr. CRAFARD. They knew each other. They seemed to be friendly, always
talked, Jack would always speak to him when he came in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you associate any name with this man?

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t remember his name, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was his name in any of the names that we went through in
the notebooks today?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember. I wouldn’t remember his name if I saw it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody else who would know him? Would Andy
Armstrong know him?

Mr. CRAFARD. Andy Armstrong would know him; yes. I believe that Andy is
the one that first told me his name and told me to always seat him in
the same place.

There was only one chair in the club that he could sit on and we had to
go get it all the time when he come in and put it in the place for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what I have marked in the same
fashion Exhibit 5212, which is also a series of photographs.

Do you recognize any of the people in those pictures?

Mr. CRAFARD. The stripper is Little Lynn.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In all of the pictures?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the patrons? Do you recognize any of the
patrons?

Mr. CRAFARD. Only myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you?

Mr. CRAFARD. This doesn’t look like me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; it is not me at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that you right there? You have indicated to me that
your photograph appears in a number of these pictures.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And let me indicate that you are in the photograph in the
upper right-hand corner, and you are the man in a black suit who is
seated second from the left along the runway.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And in the picture immediately below that you occupy the
same position?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The picture immediately below that which is the third from
the top, on the right-hand side you occupy the same position?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the stripper is Little Lynn?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then moving into the center set of pictures you appear in
the same position third from the bottom?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the same position at the bottom?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is this suit and dress that you show here, is that
the way you were normally dressed at the Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. These pictures were taken as a photographic stunt,
also.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During the day, Larry, if you had occasion to go out of
the Carousel Club, were you also dressed in a suit?

Mr. CRAFARD. During the day, up until about 5 o’clock, I was normally
dressed in a pair of white jeans, a long-sleeved shirt or a pair of
corduroys as I was usually working around the club and I didn’t care to
wear a suit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked in the same
fashion Exhibit 5213.

Now, this picture was taken inside the Carousel Club.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you look at these pictures and tell me looking at the
picture in the upper left-hand corner, who that is?

Mr. CRAFARD. Johnny, the M.C. on stage with his three puppets.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And in the photograph right below that there are two
girls. Who is the blond?

Mr. CRAFARD. Kathy Kay and I believe Tammi True in the dressing room.
The next photograph is the same.

The next photograph is Tammi True on stage. Going to the middle of the
first photograph is Tammi True. The middle series is all Tammi True on
stage.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the patrons in here?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t; except on the top picture on the right-hand
corner shows the heavy set man we have mentioned before in the same
position as before.

On the right-hand column it shows Kathy Kay on the top photo.

The next three photos are all pictures of Johnny with his puppets.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that Johnny, would his name be Johnny Turner?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he the only M.C., the only man who was employed at the
time?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was the only M.C. employed at that time; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the only other employees he had at that particular
time were strippers or entertainers?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; strippers and the waitresses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So let me understand this. That while you were there,
Billy DeMar was employed there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wally Weston?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Johnny Turner?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And anyone else?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was all. I can’t remember who the M.C. was
when I first went to work for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it a different one other than the three we have
mentioned?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure. That is what I was trying to remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did these M.C.’s have a regular run of a prescribed number
of weeks that they would play?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; maybe they might come in for 2 or 3 weeks, or they
might be there for 1 week and then they might stay for 3 or 4 months.
It would depend on the contract that they signed with Mr. Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Buddy Heard ever come and appear?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe he was ever there while I was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what has been marked as Exhibit
5214 and I want to ask you if you recognize any of the patrons in those
photographs.

Mr. CRAFARD. The heavy set gentleman that has been mentioned before is
in the second photograph in the left-hand series. He is in the first
photograph in the middle series. That is all. But other than that, I
don’t recognize any of the other patrons.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you now what has been marked as 5214-A
and all the markings are in the same fashion as the previous ones. Do
you recognize any of the patrons in there?

Mr. CRAFARD. The patron in the second and third photographs on the
right-hand side looks familiar but I can’t place him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am handing you is Exhibit 5215 which is also marked
in the same fashion as the others. Do you recognize any of the patrons
there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I show you Exhibit 5216. You will notice that this appears
to be the interior of a dressing room and there is some sort of a
plaque on the wall in the top two photographs in the center and the
photograph in the lower right-hand corner. Do you recall what that
plaque is?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you state whether that picture was taken at the
Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recognize those as Carousel Club dressing
rooms?

Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, yes. The dressing rooms have been redecorated since I
worked there, I know that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the dressing rooms look as they appear in that
photograph at any time while you were employed at the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe that is the dressing room of the Carousel.
I don’t remember this stuff along the bottom picture, the left-hand
side of the bottom picture in the left-hand column. The plywood door
that is shown in several pictures, I don’t recognize that as being of
the dressing room at the Carousel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked in the same
fashion as Exhibit 5217. Do you recognize the patron that is shown in
that photograph?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t, but I believe from this picture I can pretty
well state that that other last picture was photographs of the girls’
dressing room, from the location of the table. Instead of a door that
was a window that had been boarded up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I show you Exhibit 5218 which has been marked in the same
fashion. Do you recognize any of the patrons in that photograph?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Exhibit 5219 which has been marked in the same
fashion? Do you recognize any of those patrons?

Mr. CRAFARD. Only that I believe this one has been showed in previous
pictures.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this a duplicate of something we already have?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe it is a duplicate, but I believe this
gentleman in the white shirt has been shown in previous pictures.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about 5220? Do you recognize any of the patrons there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Only this one gentleman here. I can make him out
especially in the bottom picture in the middle column.

Mr. GRIFFIN. With the white shirt on?

Mr. CRAFARD. The gentleman with the short-sleeved white shirt on I can
recognize him from the previous pictures.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t have a recollection of who he is?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t have a recollection of who he is. I don’t think I
ever knew the gentleman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Exhibit 5221, do you recognize any of the patrons in
there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Only the gentleman on the right-hand would be the back
down in the picture towards the right-hand side would be the far side
of the stage the heavy set gentlemen that has been mentioned before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Officer Tippit?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever know a man named Bernard Weissman?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Ruby or anybody indicate that Officer
Tippit was ever in the Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember of hearing any indication.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about that Bernard Weissman? Was he in the Carousel
Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember any indication of that, either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever owned a gun?

Mr. CRAFARD. I had a pistol, but it was in Oregon when I was in Texas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a pistol was that?

Mr. CRAFARD. A .22.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever owned any other sort of a gun?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were in military service, did you have any
training with a rifle?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I had training with the M-1 rifle and with the M-1
carbine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were in Dallas, Tex., did you ever have any
occasion to go out to any rifle ranges?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know whether Jack Ruby ever went to any rifle
ranges?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your answer is you don’t know?

Mr. CRAFARD. I did not know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were in Dallas, Tex., did you attempt to
purchase an automobile?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you visit any used car lots?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever drive Jack Ruby’s car?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you drive an automobile at any time while you were in
Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever accompany anybody in an automobile to have it
repaired?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I believe when you talked with the FBI, you indicated
that you visited a store with Jack where he was going to get some
electrical or electronic equipment.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon was that after you began to work for Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. I think it was about 3 or 4 weeks after I went to work for
Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you talk about working for Jack, do you mean that to
include the time that you were working at the Dallas, Tex., State Fair?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As working for Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. Only the time, from the time the State fair closed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what kind of electrical equipment Jack was
purchasing, looking for when you went with him?

Mr. CRAFARD. Some speakers and—that is the boxes that are used to work
a speaker out of, the amplifier box.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he going to use these items?

Mr. CRAFARD. In the Carousel Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he had those items there before?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had the items in the Carousel Club, but he was going to
replace them with some better models.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were his existing models defective in any way?

Mr. CRAFARD. There was always something going wrong with one speaker or
the other.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he actually replace these?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not while I was there; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened at the electronics store that you visited?

Mr. CRAFARD. He talked with the gentleman for a few minutes and I
believe he give them a free pass to the Carousel Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do in connection with buying equipment?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had checked out some equipment they had there, their
prices, the types of equipment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What price range of equipment was he talking about?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was wanting to get a better model amplifier as cheaply
as he could.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this have been an expenditure of over $100?

Mr. CRAFARD. I really don’t know, but I don’t believe so. Could I go
back a little bit to the day. I believe that was about a week after I
went to work for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you testified yesterday I think that the girl whom you
identified in some pictures taken on the street outside the Carousel
with Jack Ruby, you identified this girl as Gloria McDonald.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could her name have been Gloria Fillmore?

Mr. CRAFARD. Her name could have been, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure about the name McDonald?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. In fact if I may be allowed to say so, I am not
positive that this girl is the girl I knew as Gloria. Her name could
have been something entirely different. I believe it was Gloria.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You believe it was Gloria in this picture?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you are not completely positive.

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I never knew her last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me try to refresh your recollection a little bit.
Going back to Wednesday, November 20, 2 days before the President was
killed, and Thursday, November 21, do you remember on either of those 2
days receiving any telephone calls from Bruce Carlin?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Bruce called the evening of Wednesday, the 20th
wanting to speak to Little Lynn. I am not positive but I believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now how about on the 21st. Do you remember anything on the
21st?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall anything, no. He might have but I don’t
recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever remember on the 21st a telephone call being
placed to Jack Ruby in the early portion of the evening, and your
answering the phone and talking to the person on the phone?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember it, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Bruce Carlin ever have occasion to call Jack Ruby in
your recollection?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember him ever doing so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet any of Bruce Carlin’s friends?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet a boy named Jerry Bunker?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember it, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Bruce used to call the Carousel regularly?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. There was only one or two occasions when I am sure
that Bruce called the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When are the other occasions?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was the evening of Wednesday the 20th Little
Lynn hadn’t went straight home from the club and he called asking,
wanting to know where she was at.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any idea of the financial condition of Little
Lynn or Bruce Carlin the week before the President died?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Little Lynn ever complain in your presence about not
having enough money?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that when she first went to work for Jack, Jack
either gave her an advance or loaned her some money, one or the other.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I recall yesterday in your talking with Mr. Hubert there
was some problem you felt that you had lost 8 hours in describing what
happened on your trip from Dallas to your destination in Michigan.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the time that has passed since then, have you been able
to find those 8 hours that were lost?

Mr. CRAFARD. Pretty well, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you think happened?

Mr. CRAFARD. I got mixed up on my routes in Oklahoma City and spent
quite a bit of time getting back. There is where I lost the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time did you arrive in Oklahoma City?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was about 7 o’clock in the evening of the 23d.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how did you happen to get mixed up on your routes?

Mr. CRAFARD. I got a ride with this gentleman and I believe he said
something about getting me out on my route or something like that, and
I got mixed up on my route.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ride with him in the wrong direction for a while?

Mr. CRAFARD. He took me out, he took me quite a ways more than where I
had to go.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On that basis what time would you say that you arrived in
Chicago?

Mr. CRAFARD. It probably would put me in Chicago sometime Monday, about
10:30 or 11 o’clock in the morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived in Chicago, then you knew that Ruby had
killed Oswald?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what time did you arrive in Lansing, Mich.?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was about 6:30 or 7 o’clock Monday evening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived in Chicago did you make any effort to
call any of the Rubensteins?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did that occur to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; that arrival in Lansing would have been about 3:30 or
4 o’clock. It would have been a couple hours earlier.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned that the ride that you had got out of Dallas
on the 23d with a man whom you had met at the Dallas State Fair.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do at the Dallas State Fair?

Mr. CRAFARD. There was a photography place on the fairgrounds. He
worked there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a full-time employee at the fairgrounds or was this
a temporary thing?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe this was just temporary for the fair.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of the photography place?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there a number of different photographers at the
fair?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was two or three different ones at the
fairgrounds. This one was right close to the place I worked was located.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far would it have been from a tent? Were you in a tent?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far would it have been from your tent?

Mr. CRAFARD. About 150 or 200 feet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In which direction?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would have been down on the main midway. It would have
been right on a corner of the main midway and the portion of the midway
I was on. We were located on a branch off the main midway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old would you say this man was?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say he was probably in at least his middle
forties, more likely in his late forties.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he bald or did he have hair?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t really remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a graying man or what color was his hair?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if he wore glasses?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what kind of a car he owned?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he had a Chevy. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you describe his physical build, anything
remarkable about it?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I could think of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a thin man?

Mr. CRAFARD. He was about medium build for a man his age and height.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you say he had a young boy with him?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he had a son about I believe 9 or 10 years old.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you catch the son’s name?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his name? Did you learn his first name?

Mr. CRAFARD. I more than likely knew his name but I don’t remember it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do at the photography studio?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know for sure just what he did do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a Dallas studio that had a place there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there some central office of the Dallas State Fair that
would keep records of the people who had charge of tents or booths
there?

Mr. CRAFARD. That would be the fair commission would know anyone that
had any kind of a stand or concession on the midway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where would this commission have its office when the
season was not in session?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would be on the fairgrounds. I am not sure where though.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is some sort of permanent office there on the
fairgrounds?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; the Dallas Fairgrounds is one of the largest
fairgrounds in Texas. It is open the year around.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is your belief that this man knew you worked for Jack
Ruby as he was taking you out of Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not until after we had got to talking and I told him I had
been working at the Carousel Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you estimate that you were with that man?

Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, maybe a half hour or maybe 45 minutes at the most.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And it is your belief that he had a cottage at some sort
of a lake?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What place?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember the name of the lake he lived on, that he
had his cottage on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you remember somewhat where he left you off and in
what direction he had to turn?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he went to the left of 77 when he let me off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You left Dallas on route 77?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how far would you say you went on route 77?

Mr. CRAFARD. We were about 20 miles outside the city limits of Dallas
at Carrollton, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He let you off in Carrollton?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just the other side of Carrollton a little ways.

Mr. GRIFFIN. North of Carrollton?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just north. Not very far. It couldn’t have been more than
maybe a mile.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this some sort of main intersection he let you off at?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so, yes; the main entry for the Carrollton
traffic on the north side of town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were at route 77 and the corner of some other road?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was just one of the so-called farm roads of
Texas. They have got a lot of the roads numbered farm road such and
such.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a sign up there that pointed to a lake that this
man had to turn to?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get any idea how large a lake it was? Was it a
resort area?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall that either, sir. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you do recall that the man had a cottage or something
of that sort on the lake?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he was going up to work on his cottage when he picked
me up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We talked at lunchtime about a man who called the Carousel
during the week before the President was assassinated.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And would you tell us about these calls?

Mr. CRAFARD. Is that the one where I said he wouldn’t give his name or
anything?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the one I had in mind.

Mr. CRAFARD. This gentleman would call maybe two or three times a day
asking for Jack. He would ask where he could reach Jack. It sounded
like it was pretty important that he reach Jack, and that he would
never leave a number where Jack could call him back at.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever give this man a number?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what time of the day or night this man would
call?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would usually be during the day. I can’t recall any
specific time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this man ever wake you up?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; it was always well after 9 o’clock, I know that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it ever appear to be around lunch hour?

Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been anywhere from 9 o’clock to 6 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he seem to call at regular times when he called?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe his voice in terms of age?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I couldn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this man call on Friday, November 22?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t really remember whether he did or not. I don’t
believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about on the morning of the 23d, Saturday the 23d?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he call the day before the President was assassinated?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he called sometime in the afternoon of the 21st.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to Andy Armstrong about this man?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I said something to Jack about him and I believe
Andy was there when I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you say to Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. That this guy called several times wanting to get a hold
of him, would never leave his name or address or number or anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack say to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack had told me previously not to give his number to
anyone unless I knew who it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is his home number?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, or some other number he left where he could be
reached at. He said not to worry about anybody that didn’t leave a
phone number, they didn’t want to get in touch with him very bad.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate that he knew who this man was who was
calling?

Mr. CRAFARD. I took it for granted he knew who the man was. He never
said definitely that he did know who the man was. I think when I told
him about it he just said forget it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You never met this man, did you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; if I had met the man I would have known his voice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many home telephone numbers did Jack have?

Mr. CRAFARD. He only had one home number that I knew of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have an assistant manager by the name of
Alexander?

Mr. CRAFARD. That would have been Andrew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we can finish a good part of this today if we
could take a break. I want to hand you a copy of your interview with
the FBI and ask you to take time to read that over. It is rather
lengthy. It covers eight pages. Make some notes. Let me put this on
the record. Let me ask you to take your time and read this, and we
will take a recess for as long a period as you feel necessary. Make
notes as you go along of any changes that you think ought to be made,
either because you didn’t tell that to the FBI or because you now upon
reflection think that it is inaccurate, or because after reading this
and reflecting on your other testimony you would adopt this rather that
what you have said before. Let’s figure this will take at least 15
minutes and maybe longer.


TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD RESUMED

The testimony of Curtis LaVerne Crafard was taken at 9:50 a.m., on
April 10, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by
Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of
the President’s Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, and Max
Phillips, Secret Service, were present.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state first for the record that this is a
continuation of the deposition that was begun on Wednesday morning,
April 8, with Mr. Crafard, and that the oath and all the formalities
that we went through on that date are still in effect. Yesterday
afternoon as Mr. Crafard and I were returning from lunch, he indicated
to me that he had received some telephone calls at the Carousel Club in
the week before President Kennedy was killed, from a man who would call
two or three, perhaps more times a day but would not leave his name but
simply ask for Jack Ruby, and in connection with that conversation Mr.
Crafard asked me if we had any recordings of Lee Oswald’s voice. Mr.
Crafard indicated that he would like to listen to the recordings with
the possibility that he might recognize the voice of somebody he had
talked to or overheard when he was in Ruby’s employ. We have located a
tape recording of an interview which was conducted with Mr. Oswald in
New Orleans shortly after he was arrested for disturbing the peace in
connection with the Fair Play for Cuba activities. The tape recording
was made by radio station WDSU, New Orleans on August 21, 1963. The
recording involves Lee Harvey Oswald, Carlos Bringuier, Ed Butler, and
Bill Stuckey. The recording is provided to us by the United States
Secret Service. It bears Secret Service No. 236.

I would also like to explain for Mr. Crafard’s benefit as well as
the rest of us that it will be very clear as you listen to this tape
recording which person on the recording is Lee Oswald. In some cases
his name may be used. In other cases the question and answer repartee
is such that it will be difficult not to realize who Oswald is if you
know anything about Oswald’s background. There also may be a certain
amount of distortion in the recording and we are not able to state for
the record at this time exactly how much distortion there is and how
this would compare favorably with what might heard over a telephone. I
would like you to keep all of this in mind in listening to this and try
to give us as accurate a recollection as you can of whether you have
ever heard this voice which will appear to be Oswald’s.

Mr. Hubert, do you have anything you want to add?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, it is just another way of putting what Mr. Griffin
has said, we don’t want you to identify a voice simply because it is
suggested to you by the content of the material. If that would be the
basis of your recollection—of your recognition it would be of no value
to us, you see. On the other hand, if you do recognize the voice we
expect you to tell us.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dr. Goldberg, do you have anything you would like to ask?

Dr. GOLDBERG. No; I have no questions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Phillips, if you would go ahead and commence the
recording we will all listen to it.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Phillips, you are going to be able to tell us after we
finish playing that at what point you began and at what point you ended?

Mr. PHILLIPS. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Might I ask the reporter if it is possible for him to take
down the first couple of sentences so we will have for the record——

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think it will be necessary if we can get into the
record its being at such a point in feet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you indicate to use what the footage is?

Mr. PHILLIPS. I have the index at zero right now with the paper index
in the reel. When it is through I will be able to know how much, what
the index reads and I will have a paper index in the other roll and
that space in between is what we have played. I will identify that
section.

Mr. GRIFFIN. May I suggest, though, Mr. Hubert that if there is
any possibility that portions of this tape might be deleted or
retranscribed onto another tape that it would probably be best if we
did have an indication of the opening words that are on here so that it
can be located?

Mr. HUBERT. That is an extra precaution.

(The tape recording commenced with the following):

“What price in dollars of Cuba selling sugar to Russia, Russia sending
to Cuba 80 percent in machinery in Russia and 20 percent in dollars,”
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera——

(This is a Cuban or Spanish speaking voice.)

“Could you straighten out that point, are you or have you been a
Communist?”

“Yes; I am a Marxist.

“What is the difference.

“Well, the difference is primarily the difference between a country
like Ghana, Guiana, Yugoslavia, China, or Russia.”

(End of transcription.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us now, Mr. Crafard, whether after listening
to this recording you recognize any of the voices on the recording?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Phillips, I want the record to show where you began
and where you left off and we have the double check with the opening
sentences of the excerpt and the closing sentences so that we may have
a mechanical check as well, would you state for the record precisely
how this can be identified at a later point in time.

Mr. PHILLIPS. This section of the tape can be identified by paper index
tabs which have been inserted. Secondly, the index numerical index
reads 163 on this stereophonic concord tape recorder. The numerical
index reads 163 which means from the time the tape was played which was
on zero index, the tape distance went 163 inches.

Mr. HUBERT. Those paper tabs are temporary, aren’t they?

Mr. PHILLIPS. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there a possibility of marking the tape in some way
without injuring it?

Mr. PHILLIPS. There would be.

Mr. HUBERT. So that there would be a permanent mark as to where the
paper tabs were?

Mr. PHILLIPS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you do that by making some sort of significant mark
with your initials?

Mr. PHILLIPS. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. We will ask you to do that also.

Mr. PHILLIPS. All right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Larry, did you recognize anyone of the voices in that
excerpt that we played?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You have never heard them at all?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And you are certain that it is not the voice of the man who
called Ruby that you referred to yesterday?

Mr. CRAFARD. How is that now?

Mr. HUBERT. Yesterday I understand that you referred to the fact that
a man had called Ruby by telephone on a sufficient number of occasions
so that you believe that you could recognize his voice if you heard it
again.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I will ask you if any of the voices that you heard in
this excerpt just run off on the machine is the voice of the man you
were talking about?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, having had a chance to listen to a number of voices
on the tape recording is there anything you can tell us about the voice
of the man who called you without leaving his name that Mr. Hubert has
been referring to. Did he have an accent?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; he didn’t have an accent.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he speak with any characteristic Texan or southern
speech patterns?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; his voice sounded more like a person from the East
would talk. His words were very pronounced and very definite.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is one photograph that I neglected to show you
yesterday which I want to show you now and ask you to identify.

I am going to mark this Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L.
Crafard, Exhibit 5222.

(Photograph marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5222 for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at that photograph and tell me if that is a
photograph of anyone you have ever seen before?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I have saw the gentleman before at the club but
I don’t believe I was ever introduced to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall in what connection you saw him in the
Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was a guest of Mr. Ruby’s.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when you may have seen him there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Exhibit 5223
which is a photograph of a piece of paper and it bears the name T. E.
Smith, and there is some other writing under it. Do you recognize that
name on that sheet of paper?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This exhibit is marked Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964,
C. L. Crafard Exhibit 5223 and it bears on the back the numeral one.

(Photographs marked Crafard Exhibits Nos. 5223 and 5224-A for
identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Washington,
D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard Exhibit No. 5224-A and I will ask
you if you will tell us what those are a picture of.

Mr. CRAFARD. They are pictures of a message, I would say that—there is
space for who the message is to, the date, who it is by, and when they
were there and the phone numbers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there three message slips photographed in that picture?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you ever recall seeing those around, such message
slips around, the Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever recall seeing those in any connection with Mr.
Ruby?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on there. Do you recognize any of the names on
those sheets of paper?

Mr. CRAFARD. None other than the name Ruby here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether Mr. Ruby received telephone calls
regularly at any phone other than the phone at the Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. He might at his home address. I wouldn’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at what I have marked in the same fashion
as Exhibit 5224-B and tell me if you recognize any of the names that
are shown in that photograph?

(Photograph marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5224-B for identification.)

Mr. CRAFARD. The middle one in the picture bears the name Pauline which
is the name of the assistant manager of the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether there was somebody who stayed
throughout the day at the Vegas Club in the same manner that you stayed
throughout the day at the Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe there was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you a series of photographs all of
which are marked Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964 and which I am going
to mark Exhibit 5225. Each of these 19 photographs has in the upper
right-hand corner on the reverse side of the photograph a letter in
sequence from A to S. I would like you to look at all 19 of these
photographs and tell me if you recognize the notebook which they
purport to depict.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe these to be a notebook that Jack Ruby used.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would you recall seeing that notebook?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he carried it on his person.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yesterday you identified two other notebooks one which you
thought he kept on his person, the other which you thought he kept in
his desk.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Having seen this is there—would you change your testimony
any way about the other two notebooks that you identified yesterday?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So it is your testimony that Jack maintained at least
three small-sized notebooks that you recall?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had several of them, two or three of which he carried
on him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to state for the record that these photographs do
not have the normal commission number that is put on documents when
they come into the office. These photographs at this time have come to
us by a letter from the Federal Bureau of Investigation dated April 7,
and the letter indicates that this notebook was found in Jack Ruby’s
automobile.

I will identify this notebook further as having on the front cover the
word “Alladin”. The notebook appears to be a pocket-size notebook which
might be 2 by 3 inches or 1½ by 3 inches.

Under the word “Alladin” there is a triangle with some writing which I
am unable to read. Under the triangle, on the cover is written notebook
No. 3164.

Mr. HUBERT. You had better identify that picture you hold in your hand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The picture I am referring to here is Exhibit 5225-A.
The one refers to the number that the Bureau has put on in the upper
right-hand corner on the reverse side. I am going to ask you to look at
these photographs in sequence if you will look at Exhibit 5225-B, will
you tell me whether you recognize any of the names written on there?

(Photographs marked Crafard Exhibits Nos. 5225-A through 5225-S for
identification.)

Mr. CRAFARD. The name Pauline is on this page.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Milt Jaffe?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the name Bonnie also appears on this, that would
be the last name on this page.

Mr. GRIFFIN. State what you understand—you are looking through a
magnifying glass now at photograph number one, in the series of
Exhibits 5225 and there is a name on there that you believe to be
Bonnie?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record that as I look at it it
appears to be Barney, but assuming that it is Bonnie, that is—is that
name familiar with you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Bonnie, a girl was—a girl by the name of Bonnie worked as
a waitress at the Carousel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about any of the other names on that page?

Mr. CRAFARD. The name Pauline mentioned before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Correction for the record, we are looking at photograph B
in the 5225 series.

Would you look at photograph C in that series and tell me if you
recognize any of the names on there?

Mr. CRAFARD. This photograph doesn’t contain any names. It has
something to do with taxes, admission tax.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what Jack Ruby’s practice was while you
worked with him as to keeping track of taxes and so forth?

Mr. CRAFARD. On this admission tax we had some numbered tickets. When
each customer came in we tore one in half, tore half of the tickets and
gave them half of the ticket and once a month they would go at it and
count the tickets.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where he kept his records for those things?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know where he kept his records at.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his making entries in a small notebook for
such records?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; not on the admission tickets.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have some sort of other book that he kept his tax
records in?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe his accountant kept most of the tax records but
there was something about the admission tax where him, Ruby and Andy
would work on that together and count the stubs.

But I don’t know where he kept record of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the admission charge to the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Two dollars.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it——

Mr. CRAFARD. This was including the taxes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that $2 every night or was there a different charge on
weekends?

Mr. CRAFARD. Two dollars every night at the Carousel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his charge for admission at the Vegas, if there
was any?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was 75 cents or 85 cents, something like
that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph D?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is another State admission tax note. July, August,
and September.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Exhibit D of Series 5225.

I want to show you E of Exhibit 5225. There are some names written down
there.

Do you recognize those names?

Mr. CRAFARD. Billy Brook, I have heard his name mentioned, I believe he
was a comedian; I am not sure.

There is Bobby Patterson. I have mentioned him as a band member for the
Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a notation under the name Bobby Patterson. Would
you read that?

Mr. CRAFARD. Right under the name?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t make it out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To the right of the name there is a 6 with two zeros, and
right under the name Bobby Patterson it says, “and friends” and on the
same line to the right of the words “and friends” and under the 600 it
says “10” with two zeros.

Do you recognize—does that mean anything to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that handwriting that is shown there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not positive, but I believe it is in Mr. Ruby’s
handwriting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the way Mr. Ruby made notations about money?

Mr. CRAFARD. This is his method of making notations with the 10 large
and two zeros small on the upper portion of the line.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else about that writing which makes you
think that is Jack Ruby’s writing?

Mr. CRAFARD. The fact that it is fairly small. And there is the name
Armstrong, the next name that I recognize, Andrew Armstrong. That is
all there is on that page.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph F and tell us if you
recognize anything on that photograph. This is of Exhibit 5225.

Mr. CRAFARD. What I recognize is really small writing down almost to
the bottom of the page, there are three lines right close together. The
names and phone numbers, the name Ruth Shay, I have heard the name, I
can’t recall exactly what her relation was, and the name Pauline again
and then Tex De Lacy, I believe I had his name and phone number wrote
down in my notebook.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph G and tell us if you
recognize any of the names there or any of the notations that are on
there.

Mr. CRAFARD. Other than the fact that it is apparently for excise tax
purposes for the Carousel Club, that is all I can say about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph H. Do you recognize any of
the names or notations on that photograph?

Mr. CRAFARD. This shows two pages and one page is excise tax for
Carousel Club. The other page has very little writing on it.

The name Joseph Rossi. I have heard Jack use the name Rossi quite a few
times, but I don’t know what it was about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Joseph R-o-s-s-i?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph I in this series that we
have been looking at and tell me if you recognize any of the names and
notations there.

Mr. CRAFARD. The name Tom Palmer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You already testified about him.

Mr. CRAFARD. I already testified about Palmer and the other page has
the words revenue from the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph J and tell us if you
recognize any of the names and notations there.

Mr. CRAFARD. There is one name on here, I believe I heard Jack mention,
but I am not sure. This Rocky Robinson, I am not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection as to the context or
connection that you may have heard that name used?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he introduced me to a man named Rocky, but I
can’t recall the last name of the gentleman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph K and would you tell us if
you recognize any of the names and notations there?

Mr. CRAFARD. None except for the insignia of KLIF Station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the Serv-U Pharmacy as being a business
in Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph L and tell us if you
recognize any of the names and notations there?

Mr. CRAFARD. This is a repetition.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a duplicate photograph of the same picture that we
showed?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As 5225-K.

Would you look at M in this series of photographs and tell us if you
recognize any of the names and notations?

Mr. CRAFARD. There is the name Jeanine, Tammi, Lynn that I recognize,
Brother Bear.

The name Norma, I believe is the same phone number as I give for Miss
Norma Bennett, or Barnett.

I believe there is a Bob Litchfield, I believe that is the last name on
there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Those are all names that you testified about previously?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. I am not sure about that Litchfield.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Bertha Cheek that appears on
there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at N in this series of photographs and tell
us if you recognize any of the names and notations there?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph O in the series and address
yourself to the same questions?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recognize any that is on here. There appears to be
the word “taxes”.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you look at P and tell us if you recognize any of the
names and notations there?

Mr. CRAFARD. There is the words Morning News, Carousel rent and
something about the laminating company.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do those—can you tell whose handwriting those notations
are in?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they are in Jack’s handwriting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it Jack Ruby’s practice to make notes for himself of
things he had to do any particular day?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know for sure whether he did or not. On one or two
occasions I have saw him make notes of things he wanted to do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at Exhibit Q and tell us if you recognize
any of the names or notations there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mike Shore.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You testified about him previously.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

There is Ed Pullman’s name on there. I have testified about him
previously.

And Joe Williams, I believe from the band at the Carousel Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to direct your attention back again to photograph
P in this series, Exhibit 5225. There is a notation on here “baby
bottle.” Do you have any idea what Jack Ruby would have had to do with
any baby bottles?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t, whatsoever.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On Exhibit Q in this series, 5225, there is a notation
“Goodwill Industries”. Did Jack—do you remember having anything to do
with Goodwill Industries?

Mr. CRAFARD. Except the fact that most of my clothes were bought there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The name Dalton appears in connection with that.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he spoke with Mr. Dalton in connection with
trying to get the Goodwill Industries interested in the twist boards,
their manufacture, I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is also a notation after the word “Mike Shore”
appears to be the word “blades”. Did Mike Shore have anything to do
with the Wilkinson blades that Jack gave away?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of; not to my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is also a notation on here that appears to read
“Stubbe Machine”, some sort of machine that looks like Stubby.

Mr. CRAFARD. The only thing I could say with that it might be in
connection with the laminating machine that he was thinking about
getting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, tell us about the laminating machine that he
was thinking about getting.

Mr. CRAFARD. These free passes he was giving out he was having them
laminated in plastic and he was thinking about getting a machine to do
it himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he intending to purchase this machine?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. These were free passes to the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the practice of giving passes away to the Carousel
exist all the time you worked for Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. He started that practice just after I went to work
for him, giving them to people that he had business with, personal
acquaintances, and different important businessmen from different areas
of the country.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to Andy Armstrong or Jack so that you
would be able to state whether he had given away passes prior to that
time?

Mr. CRAFARD. To my—as far as I know, he had never given them away
before this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Monte that appears on this
photograph Q in the 5225 series?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the name of a fellow by the name of Monte
Timmons?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe I ever met the man. I don’t remember the
name.

Excuse me 1 minute.

I believe that is a woman’s name. There was a woman by the name of
Monte, had a phone call, had Ryan call her back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Ryan?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to show you photograph R and ask you if you
recognize any of the names or notations there.

Mr. CRAFARD. Bill Petty’s name is on there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was a friend of Jack’s. I met him at the
Carousel Club. Jack introduced me to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he live in Dallas?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what he did? How often did you meet him at the
Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was there two or three times while I was
working for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he come during business hours or would he come in
the afternoon, or morning, when there weren’t patrons there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe when I first met him was in the afternoon, but
other than that it was during business hours.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what the nature of Jack’s connection with
Petty was?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

There is the name Gladys. I spoke of her before.

And this Dr. Uhleviteh was Mrs. Grant’s doctor.

The name Oscar Newman seems familiar, but I don’t recollect what there
was about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There appears to be an abbreviation for Mrs. written above
Oscar Newman, does that mean anything to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will hand you photograph S in this series we have been
looking at. Do you recognize any of the names there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Little Lynn’s name is on there.

There is the name Gloria with the last name of R-e-t-t-i-g, the last
name doesn’t mean anything to me. The first name was the same as we
have mentioned before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Vicky Williams a name that you recognize?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yesterday I gave you a copy of the FBI report of its
interview with you. Did you have a chance to look that over?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As a result of having read that interview, are there any
changes or corrections that you desire to make in that interview?

Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly were minor changes. One was the spelling of my
wife’s maiden name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How should that be spelled?

Mr. CRAFARD. It should be spelled with a “P” instead of an “O” there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you take my pen and correct that and then initial it
and date it where it appears in the interview?

I am going to mark this exhibit, “Washington, D. C., April 10, 1964.
C. L. Crafard, Exhibit 5226,” and I am going to sign my name to the
bottom of the first page.

(The document was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5226, for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I have made this notation on the first page of what
purports to be an FBI report of an interview with Mr. Crafard, the
interview having been conducted on November 28, 1963, at Bellaire,
Mich., by Special Agent Theodore S. Kramer, K-r-a-m-e-r, dictated
November 29, 1963.

There are eight pages to this report and at the bottom of each page
there is a number beginning in sequence with the number 147 and
continuing through the number 154 on the last page.

I am going to put my own initials on pages 148 through 154.

You have made your first correction of the name of your wife?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the first page of this Exhibit 5226?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, are there any other changes?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, the date of our wedding instead of the 16th of June
was the 22d of June.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are correcting that in the same fashion that you made
of the other correction?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. The fact he stated here almost every hour Ruby was
asking about calls. Called between one and three times a day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s make a correction on there, then, if this is
agreeable to you the sentence reads, “other than that Ruby would
telephone I call, I contact him almost every hour for any calls.”

After the word “contact him” why don’t you cross out the remainder of
the sentence and then make a correction in your handwriting.

Mr. CRAFARD. “almost every hour.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are crossing out “almost every hour” and you are going
to write something in there.

He has written on here “one or two times” but he spelled day “b-a-y”
and he has put his initials CLC with the date 4-10-64. He has crossed
out the words “almost every hour.”

Are there any other additions or corrections?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there were a couple of small minor changes in
there. This about Ruby kept the revolver when he had money. There was
only one occasion when he would take the revolver from the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Well, we will have to change that, then.

Mr. CRAFARD. With this, I can go back and name the one MC I have
mentioned and I couldn’t think of his name, Bill Norman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you have referred to this sentence: “He
said that when transporting money Ruby kept his money in the trunk with
the revolver and always kept the revolver with him when moving money.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to cross out everything after the phrase
“with the revolver”?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And if you want to add anything, state something to the
effect that, as you have just told me that on one occasion you recall
him having the revolver with him.

Mr. CRAFARD. On one occasion I know of him having the revolver with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the correction you have made on the paper.

Let me ask you a few questions here, Larry.

Is the one occasion that you are referring to the time when he asked
you to go down and get the revolver for him, or are you talking about
another occasion?

Mr. CRAFARD. There was one other occasion when he brought the revolver
into the club and it stayed there all evening, when he stayed in the
club, and when he left he took the revolver with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when that was?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was about a week and a half before the
assassination of President Kennedy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you remember that episode?

Mr. CRAFARD. I was trying to remember as much as I can about it, and I
remember taking the revolver to him helped me remember the fact that he
had it on one occasion with him in the club before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything that he did or said which gave you any
indication of why he had the revolver with him in the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I believe he had money in the same sack with the
revolver, and he just brought it in all together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a safe in the club at that time?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; but he didn’t use it very often. I believe he had it.
I believe he had it at that time; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You testified before that it was Jack’s practice either at
the end of every business day or the next day to pick the money up and
take it away from the club.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On how many occasions would you say you were present when
Jack, when you saw Jack take money away from the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say almost every time that he took money from the
club I was present.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And on any of these occasions other than the one you have
just described, do you recall his having a gun on his person?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him take the money and actually put it in
his car?

Mr. CRAFARD. On several occasions, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would he put the money in his car?

Mr. CRAFARD. In the trunk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in a position where you could observe him put the
money into the trunk?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you observe him take anything out of the trunk on
those occasions?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in a position so you could have seen him if he
took a gun out of the trunk and carried it with him?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I was usually right beside him placing something in
the car, myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you then on these occasions accompany Jack any place?

Mr. CRAFARD. Once or twice, but usually just put stuff in the car for
him and went back upstairs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And when you would leave Jack on any of these occasions,
did he have other people with him, who drove off with him?

Mr. CRAFARD. One or two times; yes. A couple of times he had Mr. Ralph
Paul with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how many occasions would you say you went down with
him to the car when he carried money down, put the money in the trunk,
and Jack drove off then alone?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say most of the time when I went down with him he
drove off alone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us what your best estimate is of the number
of times this would have been when he drove off alone?

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say about eight or nine times that I am definite.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times a day did you have occasion to go into the
trunk of Jack’s automobile?

Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe it would be 2 or 3 days I wouldn’t go near his
automobile, and there might be a day when I would go get something out
of the trunk of his car two or three different times during the day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On occasions when you went down to the trunk of his car
was Jack carrying money around in the trunk of his car?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He most always had money in the trunk of his car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know this?

Mr. CRAFARD. He had told me so on several occasions, and on several
occasions I was with him when he placed money in his car when I went
upstairs and then he would send me down after something out of the
trunk of his car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell whether, after Jack would carry the
daily receipts down to the car if he would continue to carry money in
his car, in the trunk of his car, or whether he would take the money
out so that the next day when he would come back and pick up the next
day’s receipts the trunk was empty so far as money was concerned?

Mr. CRAFARD. He carried the money for the receipts for a week at a time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On these occasions when he carried the money for a week at
a time, do you ever recall him going into the trunk and putting the gun
in his pocket as he was driving off?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. Only one time that I can recall a gun being in the
car, I was in the car with Jack, I believe it was the second night I
was at the Vegas Club, he brought the money sack in and the money sack
that the gun was in, was in the main money sack, and we put it in the
front seat of the car between us, right by my side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it Jack’s practice to keep a key to the trunk of the
car any place in the automobile?

Mr. CRAFARD. Other than on his key ring, I wouldn’t know of any keys.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many occasions did you have to go down to Jack’s
automobile by yourself and open the trunk of the car?

Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, I would say between 15 or 20 or 25 times while I was
with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And on each of these occasions did you have to get a key
to open the trunk?

Mr. CRAFARD. Jack would give me the key, he would give me his key ring
with the key on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there ever any occasions when Jack left the trunk
unlocked that you recall?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. The trunk on his car was the type that you have got to
unlock it to open it, and when you close it it automatically locks, and
you remove the key and it automatically locks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have a regular parking space for his car near the
Carousel Club?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; in the parking garage right downstairs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen where he parked his car at his home?

Mr. CRAFARD. I saw the parking lot. I don’t know whether he used the
same space all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it an open parking lot?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Jack had any sort of a safe in this
apartment?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is, you don’t know.

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to ask
along this line?

Mr. HUBERT. You were talking about the trunk and the money and all
that. Did you get into the record about where the gun was?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe we did, but why don’t you ask the questions?

Mr. HUBERT. It wasn’t clear to me, perhaps I didn’t catch it, as to
whether or not Jack kept the gun in the trunk of the car or on his
person.

Mr. CRAFARD. In the trunk of the car, he kept it in a money sack in the
trunk of the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe your testimony was that, so that Mr. Hubert
can be brought up to date, that you only ever saw him carry the gun
on his person on two occasions, one of those occasions being when you
brought the gun up to him at the club in connection with some sort of
an argument that he had, and the other one was when he brought it in a
money bag on one occasion.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that your testimony a few moments ago concerning the
money and how you saw him put money in there, sometimes you carried
it down, or at least saw it there, is that when there was money there
there was a gun with the money, usually in a sack with the money?

Mr. CRAFARD. The money was usually in a different, separate sack from
the gun, but at times he would take the sacks, on these two occasions
that I know of, he took the sack the money was in, the sack the gun was
in and put them all in a larger sack.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him to own a holster?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. To hold a gun?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. On the two occasions that he did have the gun on his
person, how did he have it?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was inside of a money sack, and he carried it in his
hands, the money sack wrapped around the gun and laying in his hand.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the two occasions that you say he had it on his
person?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You never saw him put it in his pocket or his waistbelt?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. That is all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever heard from Jack or Andy Armstrong or anybody
else that Jack had ever been robbed or burglarized?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Continuing on with your copy of the FBI interview report,
are there any other corrections or additions or changes that you would
make?

Mr. CRAFARD. One addition I would like to make to my testimony of the
fact that when Ruby first came to the club on the day that President
Kennedy was killed, and before he left he called the paper and placed
an ad to the effect that we would be closed, from the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are reading this out of what is page 150?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of your interview report?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have had a chance to read this interview report, and
does this refresh your recollection?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. After reading it yesterday evening, and thinking
about the whole thing yesterday, last night at the hotel, I have
refreshed my memory to some extent.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After having refreshed your recollection with this report,
are you able to state how soon after Ruby came into the club he told
Andy Armstrong to notify the personnel?

Mr. CRAFARD. It wasn’t more than about a half hour or 45 minutes after
he came into the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But he didn’t do it right away?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You people sat around for awhile?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you discuss as you were sitting there the question of
closing the club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe we did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember how Jack came to give these instructions
to Andy?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon after Andy began to call the personnel do you
remember Jack calling the newspapers and changing the ad?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was just shortly after Andy started calling
personnel and Jack went in and used the pay phone and said something
about calling the paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You recall if up to that time Jack had received a
telephone call from any newspaper person asking him if his clubs were
going to be open?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any other additions or changes or corrections
that you would make in this interview report in your testimony as a
result of having read the interview report?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe yesterday I was talking about the financial
setup of the club. I believe I said it was fairly good. I would say
that this portion of my statement here referring to the financial setup
was gained from the fact that Jack was always complaining about going
broke, and a portion in my testimony the other day about the financial
position of the club was my own opinion.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are referring to page 150 of the interview report?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And as I understand what you are saying in here was that
when you told the FBI that the club couldn’t financially stand to be
closed, you were making that statement on the basis of what Jack had
said?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But your own personal opinion was?

Mr. CRAFARD. That the club was making enough money to hold its own,
even on a closure of 2 or 3 or maybe 4 days.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to make a change on page 150 so that—well,
maybe we shouldn’t make this change. There is no question in your mind
but that the FBI interview states, is an accurate reporting of what you
said at that time?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; there is no question.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, passing on to page 151, is there anything there that
you would change?

Mr. CRAFARD. The fact here that Ruby said he was going to his sister
at that time. I don’t believe he at that time mentioned where he was
going. When he returned later in the evening he mentioned where he was
going.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to the language at the top of page 151
which says, “Ruby said that he was going to his sister’s home and asked
Crafard if he desired to accompany him, which offer was refused”?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe there was a time element setup there where
they haven’t included in this testimony here of the fact that the early
portion of this was about the financial setup, about calling the paper
was at one time, and when he said something about going to his sister
was later in the afternoon.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Continuing on page 151, are there any other additions or
corrections or changes you would make?

Mr. CRAFARD. The second paragraph on page 151, the second complete
paragraph where it starts, “Ruby then came back to the club or called
Crafard about 7:30 p.m., that evening.” I would like to strike out or
called about 7:30 p.m., in the evening. The fact he had come back to
the club is something I have established yesterday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. But you did at that time you talked to the FBI,
you weren’t sure whether he came back or called?

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how about the time—7:30 p.m., as you think back about
that now?

Mr. CRAFARD. At the time——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that an accurate time?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so. I believe it was a supposed time,
approximate time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But is that your best recollection of the time, or would
you now alter your estimate of what time it was?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that I said yesterday it was about 6 or 6:30
when he came back to the club, I am not sure. I would say between 6:30
and 7:30 would be about the best estimate I might give on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you make that estimate?

Mr. CRAFARD. If I remember right, 8 o’clock I was sitting in the
drugstore eating lunch, approximately 8 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you recall being at the drugstore at 8 o’clock?

Mr. CRAFARD. The one girl that works over there goes off at 8 o’clock
and she left while I was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, actually, you got to the drugstore some time before 8
o’clock?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And by that time Jack Ruby had already returned to the
club and asked you to accompany him to Eva Grant’s?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack mention to you at that time anything about going
to the synagogue?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can remember. On the third paragraph on
page 151, I believe yesterday I gave an earlier time for this same
event of Jack calling me at the club on the morning of November 23.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the language you are referring to is on Saturday
morning, November 23, at about 5:30 a.m., Ruby called him and told him
to meet him downstairs with the Polaroid camera and some film.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe yesterday that the time I gave was about 2
hours earlier than this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your best recollection now as to the time? Was
your memory more accurate at the time you told the FBI about this
episode or is it more accurate now after having spent 2 days discussing
the matter?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe in the trial in Texas it came out pretty well to
where it just about had to be between 4:30 and 5 when he called.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you arrive at that conclusion?

Mr. CRAFARD. At the trial, there was quite a bit of questioning on this
effect.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of you?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. And I believe the different times that some of the
previous witnesses had given the lawyer, and I come to the agreement it
must have been about between 4:30 and 5 o’clock that he called me.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your best recollection now? That is what we want to
get.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s disregard what other people have told you to suggest
what the time is, and try to think about your own activities. As I
recall, you testified that you talked for 2 or 3 hours with a girl on
the telephone.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then you read for a while, and then you apparently
started to doze off, to go to sleep.

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the other time, the time element I used
yesterday would be more of a correct time than this.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us just your recollection right now today.

Mr. CRAFARD. I would say between about 3:30 and 4:30.

In the same paragraph further down, closer towards the bottom. “When he
got to the car, George, Ruby’s roommate, was also there and they drove
out on the Stemmons Freeway.” I believe in this testimony here the
Stemmons Freeway was more of a suggested name to me than anything else.
I would like to clearly state I am definitely not positive of that sign.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you testified also yesterday that it was the
Central Expressway.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I believe it was on the Central Expressway.

Referring to page 152 of this testimony, and back to previous
testimony, I have made here concerning the mention of the name of Lee
Harvey Oswald, I believe that this would be about the first time that
we used the name of Oswald, was used very much among us. Previous to
this, I don’t believe there was any reference made to this person by
name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Starting on page 151?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. With the sentence, “He also recalled that while being at
the waffle shop on Commerce Street, Ruby was reading about Lee Harvey
Oswald in a newspaper.”

Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long a time would you say you spent at the waffle shop?

Mr. CRAFARD. Twenty or twenty-five minutes, maybe a half hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what time it was when you were at the waffle
shop?

Mr. CRAFARD. Right around six in the morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you spend at the Earl Warren sign
photographing that sign?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not more than 20 minutes at the most.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think it might have been as long as 20 minutes?

Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you spend some time in the car talking about the sign
before you got out to photograph it?

Mr. CRAFARD. No. I believe we got out of the car immediately when we
pulled over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it take you 15 or 20 minutes to photograph the sign?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did it take so long?

Mr. CRAFARD. Trying to get the right angle on the sign where I could
get the clearest picture of the words of the sign.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have to walk across the street to photograph the
sign?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby get out of the car with you at the time?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; all three of us, Ruby, Senator and myself got out of
the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Going over onto page 152, are there any additions or
corrections which you would make?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; that is about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you some specific questions about that. I
have made some notes myself.

On the bottom of page 148 of the FBI interview, which is Exhibit 5226,
the FBI reports this language, “However, Andy Armstrong or Alexander,
the assistant manager and bartender would handle the money until
midnight.”

Did you ever know Andy Armstrong by the name of Alexander?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I couldn’t recall exactly what his last name was. At
that time I believe my recollection was that it was either Armstrong or
Alexander but I wasn’t positive just exactly what his last name was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In this interview as reported on page 147 of Exhibit 5226,
you state that “After completing this job Ruby asked him to stay at the
club and work for room and board.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He had the room in front of Ruby’s office? This would be
approximately November 1, 1963?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you have testified previously here that you
thought you worked for Ruby for 6 weeks to 2 months.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But, of course, if you went to work for him on November
1 you would have only worked for him about 3 weeks. Now, which is the
more accurate recollection?

Mr. CRAFARD. My dates are mixed up on that. I am not positive of the
date of the Dallas, Texas State Fair.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work at the State Fair until the State Fair closed?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I thought I understood your testimony on Wednesday to be
that the second show that you worked for there, the one with the band——

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Closed a few days before the State Fair actually closed.

Mr. CRAFARD. It closed the day before the State Fair actually closed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue to work at the State Fair?

Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed at the State Fair.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that the way to accurately date when you began to work
for Ruby would be in terms of when the State Fair closed?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would be starting the day after the Dallas, Tex., State
Fair closed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did the State Fair last?

Mr. CRAFARD. Two weeks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that the show, How Hollywood Makes Movies lasted about
1 week?

Mr. CRAFARD. Right at that; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the band show lasted about another week?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On page 149, the FBI reports you as indicating, and I am
quoting, “He said that one night approximately November 14 or 15, 1963,
Ruby was having trouble with an MC Earl Norman at the Carousel and
about 1:30 a.m., he, Ruby, sent Crafard out to the car to get the gun.”

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe in testimony yesterday I stated that I couldn’t
remember exactly who he had the trouble with, and I am right now not
clear after thinking all night, I am not clear in my mind as to the
fact that it was Earl Norman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your memory accurate at the time you talked with the
FBI?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure, though, that the reason Ruby went to get the
gun was because he was having trouble with the M.C.?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; that is what I say. I am not positive of the fact who
it was he was having trouble with.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that Ruby went to get the gun because he was
having trouble with somebody?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he had had some trouble with somebody and he had sent
me to get the gun.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You stated that the gun was believed to be the property of
Howard?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Negro employee, and I am reading that from page 149.
Is it still your understanding that that gun was Howard’s gun?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Shortly after I went to work for Jack he told me or Howard told me that
when he first went to work for Jack he had three or four different
guns and he had permits for his pistols, and on a couple of occasions
the law forces confiscated his pistols and later returned them, and he
was afraid this might happen again and he wouldn’t get this particular
pistol back so Jack asked him if he could borrow the gun and he told
Jack yes; he could use the gun as long as he wanted.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever say anything to you which indicated that the
gun was not Jack Ruby’s gun?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to Howard about the gun that Jack Ruby had at
any time after you went down to the car on the 14th or 15th of November
to bring the gun up to Jack?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk specifically with Howard about the gun
that Jack was carrying around in the trunk of his car?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; this was the gun our conversation was about. He said
that gun had belonged, it was his gun, that he had loaned it to Mr.
Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what kind of a .38 caliber revolver this
was?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was a Colt. Other than that I couldn’t say.
It was a snubnosed revolver, Colt snubnosed is all I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything distinguishing about the handle?

Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn’t describe anything distinguishable about the
handle, but I believe I could recognize the revolver if I was to see
it. Excuse me, that handle was an, I believe an imitation bone handle
on that pistol. I believe it was kind of a grayish-white imitation bone
handle with dark brown spots on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You testified that you believe Little Lynn called sometime
on Friday evening, November 22?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would be your recollection that telephone call
was received, was it before or after you had dinner at 8 o’clock over
at the drug store?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was before I had dinner. I believe I said
something to Jack about it when he came back and he said if she called
again to give, tell her to call Miss Grant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she call back?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. And I told her to call Miss Grant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On page 151 of Exhibit 5226 you are reported as saying in
connection with the photograph of the Earl Warren sign and the post
office box and I am quoting from the FBI report, “Crafard said he was
completely puzzled as Earl Warren was unknown to him.”

I believe you testified earlier here in Washington that you recall Ruby
making some connection between an advertisement that he had seen in the
newspaper and the Earl Warren sign.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remember that connection at the time you talked
with the FBI?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I said something to them about the numbers on
the address having something to do with something else that Ruby had
talked about. I don’t believe I would have anything to do with this
advertisement. I don’t believe anything on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that—are you clear that Ruby, now, that
Ruby did make some connection between the advertisement and the sign?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; very clear. It was in connection with the addresses
on the sign and this post office box number on this ad that he had saw
in the paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you making this statement as a result of something
that you personally recall or is this something that is now in your
mind because of conversations you may have had with other people?

Mr. CRAFARD. This is something that I personally, clearly recall him
making the statement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it—Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to
ask along that line?

On page 153 of Exhibit 5226 the FBI reports and I quote, “He knows of
no police contacts on Ruby’s behalf but said Ruby did keep a police
card in the cash register at the Carousel with a name unknown to him on
it.”

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you describe this police card?

Mr. CRAFARD. It was a white card with the emblem of a badge on it
with some numbers on top of it, numbers on the badge. I can’t recall
what they were, if they were even clear. I believe it to have been in
connection with some sort of a police club or something of that sort,
either that or it was a detective’s card that he might have one of the
business cards, something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was a card about the size of a business card?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And could you tell what police department this person was
from?

Mr. CRAFARD. Dallas, Tex., Police Department.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been the Dallas County Sheriff’s office?

Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been; yes, sir. It was from the Dallas, one
of the Dallas police departments.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did it have the name that was written on this card
or printed on the card, did it have a rank in connection with it?

Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been a card from a justice of the peace?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t believe so. I never saw a justice of a peace
card with an emblem of a shield on it. They usually have the emblem of
the Justice Department.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned Bill Willis as being a close friend of Jack.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Bill Willis the leader of the band that played at the
Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure of that?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive but I believe he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Bill Willis, Ruby’s closest friend, in the band?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What led you to that conclusion?

Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the fact that they would talk together quite often,
if something come up in connection with the band it was always Bill
he talked to. Bill seemed to talk to Ruby more than any of the other
member of the band, and Ruby when he talked to anybody in the band it
would be to Bill Willis more than anyone else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to depart from this exhibit for a bit. You
worked for the Tear Plating Company?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not clear whether that was in Texas or Oregon.

Mr. CRAFARD. In Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Ablon Poultry?

Mr. CRAFARD. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a detective by the name of Joe Cody?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that Jack had me call him on one occasion where
he wanted to talk to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned that you worked at the Dallas State Fair for
Bob Craven and Deke Miles.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about those men that would have led you
to believe that they were homosexuals?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were working for Jack did you know that he was
getting any skin or scalp treatments of any sort?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know anything about any trichology treatments he
was getting?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack express, ever express any concern about his
baldness?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This wasn’t a subject that he joked about or that other
people kidded him about?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I remember; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall while you were working for Jack, Jack’s
making any inquiry concerning a business partner?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He was trying to get somebody to go in with him to
open another club in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear him say about that?

Mr. CRAFARD. He called two or three different people and talked to them
trying to get them to go in with him on this club. He made something,
a statement to the effect that he had a building already, that it
wouldn’t take much to get it into shape, something about they could
make the best club in Dallas, make it into the best club in Dallas, I
believe specialized clientele, you might say a closed club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this going to be a striptease club?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any of the people that Jack talked with
about that?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack trying to interest these people in doing?

Mr. CRAFARD. Backing him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He was looking for money?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anything about any friends that Jack had at a
bar called Ed’s Bar?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar with Ed’s Bar?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Dallas Cabana, do you know anything about
any friends or acquaintances down there?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he knew the gentleman who runs the Cabana Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that man ever at the Carousel?

Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive. He may have been but I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea how often Jack visited the Cabana?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea how often he visited the Baker Hotel
or the Adolphus Hotel?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet or hear Jack talk about or hear anybody
else talk about a girl named Connie Tramel or Trammell?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you testified before that you don’t recall Jack
saying anything about, saying anything after the President was killed
about the dogs he was going to send to California?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether Jack visited the Ritz Delicatessen?

Mr. CRAFARD. The what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of the Ritz, R-i-t-z, Delicatessen?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he ate meals there occasionally, although I am
not positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack discuss any travels he had taken?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss having been to Cuba?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss anything about taking a
Caribbean cruise?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Plans for taking a Caribbean cruise?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss Barney Ross?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Barney Ross’ name familiar to you?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked as “Exhibit 5227”
and I would like you to look at that and tell me if you recognize that.

(Letter marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5227 for identification.)

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it is a letter I wrote.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to tell without having read that letter when
it was you wrote it?

Mr. CRAFARD. Not the exact date. It was while I was working for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you recall how long it was before you left Dallas
before you wrote that letter?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe about a week before I left Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall why you didn’t mail that letter?

Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you read that letter through and tell us if that is
the actual letter that you wrote?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; this is the letter I wrote.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you like that letter back?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I would.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you mind if we made a photocopy?

Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn’t mind it if you want it but that—but just give
me a moment. I believe the reason I didn’t mail this letter because I
had remembered—because I had rewrote the letter just about exactly as
it is here, but in a neater hand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you actually did mail that letter?

Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you left Dallas did you mail that letter?

Mr. CRAFARD. It would have been about a week. About the same time I
wrote it. I am not sure of it, I am not definite of that. But I believe
that is the reason, I have done so on several occasions, wrote a letter
and then rewrote it so it would be neater.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I realize the letter is a personal letter. However, I
think it reflects some things about your state of mind while you were
in Dallas and your relationship to Jack Ruby that we would like to have
for the record and maybe we can handle this by my giving you a copy of
that letter.

Mr. CRAFARD. Have you got a copy?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t have a photocopy of it but I have—it has
been written up in an FBI report and simply ask you if that is an
accurate—the FBI report is an accurate rendition of the letter and then
we can refer to it.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Crafard, I understand you have asked us to return to
you the original of the letter written by you to “Dear Gale” covering
the front and back of a page, which has a letterhead on it “Jack Ruby
Associates, Dallas, Texas” and which has been identified in this
deposition as Exhibit 5227. Normally when a witness produces a document
before the Commission we make a photostatic copy, keep the copy and
then give the witness his document back. However, this document did not
come into our possession in that way, you see.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. We got this document from the FBI. Therefore, we do not
have authority to give it back to you. I will be glad to have a copy
made for you if you would like to do that.

Mr. CRAFARD. That is all right.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you like a copy?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; there is no need to go to that trouble. It is just I
had no idea I had left that particular letter. I know I didn’t do it on
purpose. It was accidental, but I left it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, I want to hand you what has been marked for
identification as “Exhibits 5228-A” and “5228-B”. Now, do you recognize
those as photographs of anything?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; these are photographs of my DD-214, my Army
discharge, the front and back sides.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those, that DD-214, is the paper that you turned over
to us on Wednesday?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those true and accurate copies of the DD-214 that you
gave to us?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I am going to return to you your copy of the
DD-214, and thank you for producing that. I am also going to hand you
two photographs which I will mark in the following manner—hand you
one photograph—I am going to hand you two photographs which I may
have marked “Washington D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard, Exhibits
5229-A and B,” and I will ask you to look at those and tell us if you
recognize those as photographs of anything which you have seen before.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; they are exhibits of the front side and reverse side
of the subpena that I was handed for the Jack Ruby murder trial in
Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You brought this subpena to us and turned it
over to us on Wednesday, is that right?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to return you, then, the subpena which you
gave us on Wednesday, and thank you for bringing that in. Did you also
produce on Wednesday a diary?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you a series of 10 photographs which
are marked, “Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard, Exhibits
5230,” and they are numbered on the face of the photograph in a
sequence starting with “A” which contains a picture of the front cover
of a notebook which says, “USS” with a circle around the USS, and then
in quotation marks “oil well” and then down on the bottom right-hand
corner of this front cover which is photographed the number 1964. That
photograph has the letter “A” on the front of it. After that, there
are a series of photographs numbered in sequence 1 through 10 making a
total of 11 photographs altogether. Now, I would like you to look at
these photographs and tell us if that is a, if those photographs are
photographs of anything that you have ever seen before.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; these are photographs of a pocket diary that is put
out by United States Steel for the oil well corporation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who maintained that diary?

Mr. CRAFARD. I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that, are those photographs of the diary which you
turned over to us on Wednesday?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you go through those photographs and tell us if
everything that you have written in that diary up to date has been
photographed in those pictures?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; everything I have wrote in that book is here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do the Nos. 1 through 10 follow in sequence with the
pages, the sequence of the pages that contain writing in your notebook?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to direct your attention to photograph No. 1.
There is a notation at the top of that photograph. Would you read that
notation?

Mr. CRAFARD. “No. 844,” the letters HEB 12, 13 and underneath, 844 is
the Nos. 12 with a dash 23.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you put that notation in the notebook?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you put that on there?

Mr. CRAFARD. Just shortly after I got the notebook in Michigan.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is that notation, what does that refer to?

Mr. CRAFARD. It refers to the Bible. It is referring to the Book of
Hebrews, page 844 the 12th Chapter, and 23d verse.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you write that in there?

Mr. CRAFARD. There is something in the Bible that refers to the church
to which I belong.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What church is that?

Mr. CRAFARD. General Assembly Church of the First Born. That is the
only place in the Bible where the name can be found.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions that you want to ask
about the notebook?

Mr. HUBERT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to return the notebook to you at this time,
and I want to thank you for bringing those documents to us. I want
to ask you one final question. Is there anything which has come to
your attention in connection with the murder of Lee Oswald or the
assassination of President Kennedy that you haven’t told us about that
you think would be of value to the Commission?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t think of anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will ask you after we conclude this deposition if
anything does come to your attention which might be of value to the
Commission if you would contact us and bring it to our attention.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I will do so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions that you want to ask?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes. There have been several conversations between us which
might be called interviews in the sense we were talking about the
matter at hand during lunch and so forth, is that correct?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that anything we conversed about at lunch
or any interviews, has not been subsequently made a part of this
deposition?

Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever talked to any other member of the Commission
staff than Mr. Griffin and myself?

Mr. CRAFARD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you feel that considering your testimony and various
exhibits that you have identified that we have all you know about the
matter that the Commission is investigating?

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is, the death of President Kennedy, and the
subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and Ruby’s connection
therewith.

Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to thank you for coming here and spending these 3
days with us, and I believe that concludes the deposition.



TESTIMONY OF WILBYRN WALDON (ROBERT) LITCHFIELD II

The testimony of Wilbyrn Waldon (Robert) Litchfield II was taken at
1:35 p.m., on April 16, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301
Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr.
Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.


Mr. HUBERT. This will be the deposition of Mr. Wilbyrn Litchfield, II——

Mr. LITCHFIELD. When I sign, I sign “W. W. (Bob) II”,—does that need to
be in there?

Mr. HUBERT. You can bring that out later when I ask you more about your
name.

Mr. Litchfield, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy, under the provisions of Executive
Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress
No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in
conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, and I
have been authorized to take a sworn deposition of you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report on the facts relating to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Litchfield, the nature of the inquiry
today is to determine what facts you know or may know about the death
of Oswald, or any other facts you may know about the general inquiry,
or, about the possible connection, if any, of Jack Ruby with the death
of Oswald or the death of President Kennedy.

I think you have appeared here by virtue of a letter—written request
made to you?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t receive a letter to come?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Sorrels called me long distance.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I must advise you then that under the rules
established by the Warren Commission, to govern the procedure of
handling witnesses and so forth, every witness is entitled to a 3-day
written notice that we wish to take his deposition, but those rules
also provide that if a witness wishes to, he may waive that 3-day
notice and just go ahead and testify now. So, I ask you now whether you
are willing to waive the 3-day notice and proceed to testify now?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and I will administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. You are commonly known among your friends as Bobby?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Bob.

Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand also that there are some of your legal
documents that you always sign that way too?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I sign it “W. W. (Robert) Litchfield, II.”

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Thirty.

Mr. HUBERT. Now where do you reside?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. 654 West Cross Timbers, Houston, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Professional bowler and bowling instructor and I sell
trophies for a bowling supply and bowling equipment office—balls, bags,
shoes—etc.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Since January of this year—approximately the middle of
January.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation prior to that time?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. From July 1963, until January of 1964, I did not work.
In July 1963, from March 1, 1962, until July 1963, I sold books and
worked myself up to a regional manager’s position.

Mr. HUBERT. Of what company?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was with the Spencer International Press from March
of 1962 until May of 1963 working in Dallas-Fort Worth—made district
manager in San Jose, Calif., made regional manager February 1963, in
Atlanta, Ga., and stayed until May of 1963, and my father’s death
brought me back to Dallas. I left Spencer and went to work for Great
Books of the Western World in June, made district manager in 2 weeks,
and was terminated in July due to my past record.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by “past record”?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I have a criminal record when I was 19 years old,
that’s 11 years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the nature of it?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I forged some hot checks and paid them off, but because
I still had a bunch of them out—I had three charges in Fort Worth,
eight in Dallas, the sum total was roughly $3,000. Restitution was made
prior to the time I went to court. I went to court and received 3 years
concurrently on each charge, 3 years on each charge in Fort Worth, 3
years on each charge in Dallas, and concurrently backdated at Fort
Worth to August of 1952.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that in the Federal Court?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; State and county. I was in prison from
February—well, I was arrested August 1952, pleaded guilty in Fort Worth
in November 1952, pleaded guilty in Dallas in January 1953, went to
Huntsville Prison in February 1953, made conditional pardon in December
1953—do you want all this?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; and you were released then, I take it?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right. Pardon was reversed because I was married and I
was voluntarily returned from Denver, Colo.; I just came back myself
and turned myself in at Huntsville and I was released in April of 1956.

Mr. HUBERT. You were actually released from Huntsville in December
1953, under a conditional pardon?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir; to Denver, Colo.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, that it was with the permission of the
State of Texas—Texas authorities?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on any terms of good conduct?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I had to report each month.

Mr. HUBERT. In Denver?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right, and obtain a job, and I obtained one and my
parole officer—I asked him should I tell them I’m on parole, and he
said “No,” and three places I worked after I was there he called
and asked how I was doing and identified himself, which caused my
termination, and the last place I worked was a laundry. I was driving a
truck and the man told him—do you want the words he used?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. “I don’t give a damn what he is doing, he is doing a
good job.” And I have a better recommendation from him that he sent me
when I came back to Texas.

Mr. HUBERT. You said something about turning yourself in?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir; my parole was revoked in July 1955.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the reason for that?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. The reason on my revokement is “unadjustment, unable to
adjust.”

Mr. HUBERT. That was done in Texas or Colorado?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. It was done in Colorado—in Denver, and in August 1955,
I left Denver, Colo., and drove home and said goodbye to Mother and Dad
and drove down to Huntsville—in fact, my Dad drove down to Huntsville
with me.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you found out that the Colorado people
had in effect recommended the revocation or revoked your parole, you
knew that you would be eventually sought?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Or just sent back.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you just bypassed that and drove yourself into
Huntsville?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I went to Austin first to the parole board and they
said, “We have already reviewed your case and formulated an opinion.
You are going back.” And I said, “Well, I’m not going back today. I’ll
go back tomorrow,” and I went back the following day and turned myself
in.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. From August 1955 until April 1956, and I was discharged
in April 1956.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you discharged completely?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Completely.

Mr. HUBERT. Or on conditions?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Completely.

Mr. HUBERT. Completely?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No conditions whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. No conditions at all. Have you had any difficulty since
then?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Do you want the FBI fingerprint record for the time
I have been picked up? I have been picked up six or seven times for
investigation. I was picked up in Arizona for investigation, I was
picked up in Florida for investigation. I got low on money—I wrote some
hot checks in 1957 in Arlington, Va., and I paid them off and that was
my latest.

Mr. HUBERT. You were not charged?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes: in Arlington, Va., in 1957, I got 6 months.

Mr. HUBERT. And did you serve any part of that time?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And how much?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Five months—four months.

Mr. HUBERT. And then you were discharged from that without condition?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—without condition. That was in a county jail. I was
a trustee—I was head cook.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, have you had any other convictions since then?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Since then—no, sir; one felony and one misdemeanor.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s the two you have already told us about?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. When you were 19 and the other one in 1957?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was charged—excuse me—I was picked up in January or
February 1958 and returned to Arlington, Va., and I was released at
Arlington, Va., in August 1958.

Mr. HUBERT. Since August 1958, you have had no trouble with the law?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Other than the fact that I—of being picked up for
investigation.

Mr. HUBERT. But you had no convictions?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. None.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever charged at all—formally, I mean, by actual
indictment?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No—no indictments.

Mr. HUBERT. You are not under any charge right now?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you are married; when were you married?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I got married in 1961.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you support yourself between July 1963, and January
1964, when you were unemployed?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. My wife was working—my wife was working and I lived
with her and my mother.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you attempt to get work?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—that’s one reason I left Dallas. The person who
is division manager of Great Books that terminated me, falsified—the
reason I was terminated, he accused me of something I did not do, and
I couldn’t prove it. It was my word against his. I couldn’t prove it,
and in January I had a chance to go to Houston to work for Great Books
and I went there and I tried to use the name of Robert Field—I had made
man-of-the-month for the Great Books organization of the whole United
States, and my picture was in their magazine called the Phenix. And the
division manager in Houston recognized me and checked it out and then 2
weeks later I had requested from this gentleman here about three orders
for me to be paid off. He had said they did not clear, that there was
no money involved and 3 weeks later through my bank here in Dallas,
Bank of Services and Trust, it just so happens that the man’s name is
Charles Counter. He has his personal account there also, and I’ve got
him on two counts of forgery right now. He took my paycheck, signed my
name, and endorsed it over to him. I have the photostats from the bank
and the photostats of the canceled checks that cleared the company.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, the point I think you are making—that your
opportunity to get with Great Books of the Western World in Houston was
frustrated because of the fact that you had changed your name and they
found out. That is, changed your name to the extent of leaving off the
first syllable of your last name?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, and the division manager there even talked to the
president of the company and he said “No.” So, I went to work for this
bowling supply which is owned by F. M. Curtis and Mel Livingston and
I told them my past record, and Mr. Curtis is a highway patrolman, he
has an interest in the supply business and he said, “I’ll give you a
break,” and I’ve been doing real good since. He just gave me a break.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you are a professional bowler?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you competed?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; in 1960 and 1961 I did, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I bowled in the All-American here in Dallas, the
PBA tour in 1961, I bowled in the Santa Fe Open in 1961 and I bowled in
the small—when I say “small” I mean $3,000 to $5,000 total first place,
singles and doubles tournaments.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever won any prizes?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, I have won prizes but I have never won the first
place—no.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the most that you have won?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. $750.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Ardmore, Okla.

Mr. HUBERT. Ardmore, Okla.?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. 1961.

Mr. HUBERT. About what part of the year—what tournament was it?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. It’s called the Ardmore Classic. I think they run
it from about May to about August. It’s 8 games across 16 lanes,
handicapped from 2 to 10.

Mr. HUBERT. You won $750—which was not first place, but what?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. About eighth place.

Mr. HUBERT. And you won it under your name W. W. Litchfield or Bob
Litchfield?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you were living in Dallas, I take it, in the last 6
months of 1963?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I was.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you living then?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. 302 West Clarendon. I also lived at the Drexel House
Apartments.

Mr. HUBERT. Where are they located?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, me, I have forgotten the address—Henderson and Knox.

Mr. HUBERT. Who runs that?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I’ve forgotten the lady’s name that runs that.

Mr. HUBERT. Bertha Cheek.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No—she does not run it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Bertha Cheek?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what street she lives on?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I do—Bertha Cheek lives on Swiss Avenue. She owns
an apartment house on Swiss, but the Drexel House is on—right off the
corner of Knox.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever live at Bertha Cheek’s boarding house or
apartment?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Never?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Never.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you get to know her?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I met her through a fellow at the bowling alley—I don’t
remember his last name. He owns an electric company here in town, the
one that has the lighting for all the fairgrounds, Bob Sands Electric
Co.

Mr. HUBERT. And he operates the bowling alley?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; he was a bowler.

Mr. HUBERT. He was a bowler himself?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever visit at her place?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, her apartment?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, let’s see, spasmodically from September to October
and November of 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words you met her——

Mr. LITCHFIELD. In September—I’m pretty sure it was, about the latter
part of August or the first of September.

Mr. HUBERT. And you met her by simply being introduced to her by Sands
at a bowling alley?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; he told me she had planned on putting in a lounge
and Bob had given her my phone number and she called me on the pretext
that I might build it and run it for her.

Mr. HUBERT. So you went to see her then?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you went to her house?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; on Swiss.

Mr. HUBERT. You had never seen her before?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Never before that—she said she had seen me, but there
was no recollection or no introduction prior to that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what happened to the negotiations that you engaged in
with her?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. It would be that I would have had to divorce my wife
and had to have married her for any other further business to have been
transacted.

Mr. HUBERT. If I’m not mistaken, isn’t she an older woman than you are
a man?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe she is—she’s 30-something or 40-something.

Mr. HUBERT. And you are saying to us that she made it a condition?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. It wasn’t a verbal condition—it was a obvious
condition. It was a situation that was arising, let’s say that.

Mr. HUBERT. And you perceived that you would have to marry her if this
thing was to go forward?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. That, or divorce my wife.

Mr. HUBERT. But she did not say so?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You think she intimated it?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Let’s say, from my past experience and knowledge
of—worldly knowledge—I would assume this, that’s being kind of tactful.

Mr. HUBERT. I was wondering if you could point to any events, since you
can’t point to any words that gave you that impression?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Without being too personal or intimate on my own
actions or any actions other than hers, no; and I don’t care to be.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Did you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I knew Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you meet him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Jack used to own the Vegas Club and I used to go there
quite a bit.

Mr. HUBERT. How do—how long do you suppose it is that you have known
Jack?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, I would say from 1959—October, roughly.

Mr. HUBERT. Continuously?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I will go in and say “hello” to him, see him
whenever I would go in. It wasn’t a friendship relation that I would go
out of my way to call him or see him or that he would call me. He had
no way of knowing how to call me. He knew me when he saw me and said,
“Hello, how are you?”

Mr. HUBERT. What about the Carousel Club, did you visit it?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I have been in that place twice.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us when that was?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. When I was associated with Bertha and she was thinking
of putting in a business, we looked at a whole bunch of clubs she
thought were for sale, and I knew the Vegas Club was not making any
money and I would have liked to have tried to buy it from Jack, so one
night I went down to see him—I had called and he said he would be there
about 10:30 or 11 and he got there about 11:15 or 11:30, something like
that, and I discussed the purchase of the Vegas Club and that’s when he
told me it had, I think, $40,000 worth of Federal liens or something
against it which still had it, and he tried to sell me the Carousel and
I wouldn’t attempt to put in a private club in downtown Dallas; I was
thinking of making the Vegas a private club by remodeling it.

Mr. HUBERT. But what you wanted to put in was a private club, not an
open or public club like the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. That’s right—a private club.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was your opinion that the Carousel was not the
proper place for a private club?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right—any downtown location. You see, I cannot obtain
an open—let’s say a beer license because of my record with the city
of Dallas, but I can obtain a private club license from the State of
Texas, even though I have a record. I talked to Buddy Mills on the
liquor board and he said, “If you haven’t done anything in 3 to 5
years—no conviction or anything,” you can.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the first time you were in the Carousel and you
were there with Cheek?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; I was not. I was alone. That was the second time I
had been in there. I had been in there one other time—I just went in to
see what it was—I didn’t speak to anybody at all that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us the date of the second time that you did
speak to him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think right around the middle of October—the second
week or the third week, somewhere along in there—the exact date—no; I
cannot.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that at the time—or you said once before
in your statement—at the time you were there there were some people
taking pictures of the club?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. There were some fellows—you see, when I walked in Jack
wasn’t there and I told the doorman, whom I found out later was his
roommate—I don’t remember the man’s name, that I was to see Jack on
business and he said he wasn’t there, and so I sat down and had some
coffee and watched the bumps and what have you, and after Jack came in,
then he had to see two or three people before me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you happen to mention to the doorman or anybody else
around there that you were from California?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You did so?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you tell that to, do you remember?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. The doorman and some other fellow that was sitting
there. He asked me where I was from and I said, “California and
Phoenix”—is all I said. I didn’t think it was any of his business who I
was.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the name of the other man, other than the
doorman to whom you said that?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No—he was a little short fellow, I would say late
forties or maybe even middle fifties. If I remember right he had kind
of a silver hairline—I don’t remember—whether he was kind of bald in
the center or not, I know it was receding, and he had an appearance of
being of Jewish descent.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you might recognize his name?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I doubt it, because when he was introduced to me I
didn’t pay that much attention to it—no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who introduced you?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. The doorman. They were sitting there together drinking
a Seven-Up or a Sprite.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, so, you just stayed and waited for Jack?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you have to wait?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think—30 or 45 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. And Jack came in?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. The dog first, then him.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, did he see you right away?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, he walked by me because I was sitting right by the
door and he turned and said something to the doorman first and then I
think he went on back and put his hat up and came back to the doorman,
and that’s when the doorman pointed me out—he walked over and said—just
a moment—he had two or three other fellows to see him—I was sitting by
the door—have you ever been in the Carousel?

Mr. HUBERT. No, sir.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I was sitting by the door like this, as you are
walking in you have to turn left. There is an aisle and there was a
fellow sitting back here by the pole with the light switches on it
and there was a fellow sitting in front of me, and then there was
the photographer who was there. I didn’t meet the photographer until
after I had been introduced to Jack and Jack introduced me to him—some
magazine for strippers like Male or Stag type magazine and he was
taking pictures and he had to get releases from the strippers—some
kind of a release they would have to sign so that he could take their
pictures.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw him getting the releases from the people?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I saw how he came in and he had the releases in
his hand. He said he had to get all of the girls to sign them and he
said all of them would sign them except one.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was when you were talking to Jack in his office?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. In his office.

Mr. HUBERT. The photographer came in and said that he had some papers
in his hand which you understood to be releases?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, he said he had the releases and had to go out and
get them signed, and then he came back again and said all except one
was signed.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was on that occasion that you talked to Jack about
buying the Vegas?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he counteroffered by suggesting that you buy the
Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand that that was the last time you saw Jack
that night?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. It was until I saw him on television—I happened to be
playing poker then.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you fix the time of that occasion with reference to
particularly the death of the President, about how long before?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, like I said, it was probably the middle of
October.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it was about a month and a little bit before
the death of the President?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. He was killed the last half of November—maybe 5 weeks
or 6 weeks—it was about the middle of October.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have previously stated that you saw a man in
there on this occasion who you thought was Oswald?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I did—in fact, I made the statement, as I was saying a
while ago, when I was playing poker—a bunch of fellows from the bowling
alley—we usually play on Saturday night. We started about 9:30 and
the game continued all through the night—one of those $2 limit games
and we were still playing Sunday, and the fellow’s wife had carried
the children to church and come back and said something about Ruby
had shot Oswald on television. No, excuse me, “Had shot him.” She had
heard it on the radio, and so we turned on the television and they were
rerunning all of this and a big hullabaloo over it and that was the
next time I saw Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. And did you make any comment at that time that you had seen
Oswald in the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I had seen Oswald on television before. I said, “That
guy looks familiar,” and a few of the fellows were around, and I don’t
remember where I said it there at the poker game, but somebody said,
“I think I’ve seen that Oswald around somewhere,” and I made the
statement, “Yes, I think I have seen him too,” and that was the extent
of it. Nothing more was said.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that statement you made that you had seen Oswald around
somewhere, was it made before Oswald was shot?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you repeat it thereafter?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I did to a friend of mine who is on the vice squad here
in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. And what is his name?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Donald Green.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you tell him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, it was the day preceding the day that I went
down—I think I went down on a Monday to the police station to talk
to the FBI agents and everybody, so I must have talked to Don on the
Sunday night preceding that or on Saturday. I called him on the phone
and I told him, “I think I have seen that man with Jack up at the
Carousel.” I said, “I don’t know, but I’m pretty darn sure I have.” And
he made some calls and called me back and said the police department
right now wants to talk to me, and he met me—I believe it was Monday,
I’m pretty sure it was a Monday, he met me Monday morning about 9:15
or 9:30 at the coffee shop of the Statler and we walked on up to the
police station.

Mr. HUBERT. And you made a statement of that?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And subsequently that same day you made a statement to the
FBI?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Two FBI agents.

Mr. HUBERT. I think they asked you to take a polygraph test too?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. And the tests showed that I hadn’t seen him because
when the man giving it asked me, “Have you definitely seen him,” and I
said, “Yes,” and it showed that I hadn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he told you the results of the test?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, he didn’t tell me the results of the test, but
Donald did—he didn’t tell me—he didn’t come right out and say, “No,”
but it was obvious. They had me pick Oswald’s picture out of a bunch
of police photographs, and anybody on the street could pick that man’s
picture out. That doesn’t mean I have seen him—I told them that—I said,
“Heck, anybody walking can pick his picture out.”

Mr. HUBERT. And you had observed to someone prior to the shooting of
Oswald that you thought you had seen Oswald somewhere?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Who were the people that you were—that you observed that to?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Let me understand your question—whom did I say this to?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I mentioned it like I said, there at the poker game.

Mr. HUBERT. This was the same poker game that went on into Sunday the
24th?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Was that the day that Oswald was killed?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—that would be it. From Saturday the 23d to Sunday
the 24th—I made it then, and—

Mr. HUBERT. Did you make it after Oswald was shot at that same poker
game?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. That’s when I made it. We was watching it on
television—the rerun of it.

Mr. HUBERT. I had understood you to say that you had said you thought
you had seen Oswald somewhere, and that you made that statement prior
to the time that Oswald was shot?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I made it once but like I said, I don’t remember who I
made it to.

Mr. HUBERT. It was not at the poker game?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No—the statement at the poker game—we were watching it
on television and it showed everything there and someone says, “I think
I’ve seen that fellow,” and I said, “Yes; I think I’ve seen him too.”
That was the second time I had said it—before when his picture came out
and everything, I said, “I think I have seen him,” but I don’t remember
where I was when I said it.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did your poker game begin?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, Saturday night about 9 or 9:30.

Mr. HUBERT. And went on until——

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Into Sunday and until about 6:30.

Mr. HUBERT. In the afternoon?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that the first time you made the observation that you
thought you had seen Oswald somewhere must have been before the poker
game began?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—it was.

Mr. HUBERT. So that would be before 9 o’clock on Saturday?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—it was. It was right after the assassination—they
were showing all the films and the capture of Oswald, etc., and when I
was watching television, I don’t remember where I was, I said, “I think
I’ve seen him.” And people sitting around me said, “He looks familiar,”
and I made the statement, “I think I have seen him.”

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when Oswald was shot and you made the statement again
that you had thought you had seen Oswald, did you say anything that
would indicate that you had seen him, Oswald, at Ruby’s place?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; I just said, “I think I’ve seen him too,” I forgot
who it was I said that to, but the guy said. “I think I have seen him
or I think I know that guy,” and I just said, “Yes; I think I have seen
him, too.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that—then that it might have been that
you had seen him at Ruby’s place?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I started trying to remember—everybody was sitting
around and saying, “Where have you seen him?” Trying to think, and I
thought about it and I remembered seeing a man similar to him, very
similar to him at the Carousel that night I was there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that to anybody?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Just Don Green when I called him on the phone and then
when I went down to the police department.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that to any of the people you were playing
poker with?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you give us the names of the people you were playing
poker with, whose house was it at, first?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. J. W. Grubbs [spelling] G-r-u-b-b-s.

Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Boy, I can’t tell you that—I can tell you how to go
there, but I don’t remember what street it is. You go out Beckley past
the A. Harris shopping center—I don’t remember the name of the street,
you turn left and then you went down a couple of blocks and you turn
left again—there were three cars of us and I followed. I don’t remember
the name of the street.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us the names of some of the other people at
the poker game?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. J. W. Grubbs and there was Ernie Stoy [spelling]
E-r-n-i-e and S-t-o-y, and one fellow I just met, he just came in—I
didn’t know, and another fellow, gee, I sure wish I could remember his
name. I know him when I see him—they are always at the bowling alley,
he usually bets on the pot games, and he is a big heavy set black
headed fellow and Max Lewis was there.

Mr. HUBERT. [Spelling.] L-e-w-i-s?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes [spelling], L-e-w-i-s, and I think there was one
more—I don’t remember who that was.

Mr. HUBERT. They were all there throughout the game—were they all there
throughout the game?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Max left Sunday morning and then returned.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the time it became known that Ruby had shot Oswald,
did you observe to anyone that you knew Ruby?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe I did. I think everybody was saying whether
they knew him or not and I believe I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone else there know him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think one or two others might have said that they
knew him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Grubbs knew him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Who said they knew him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I could assume, but I don’t remember who said that they
knew him.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you did not at that time say that you thought
you had seen Oswald in the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; I just said that—you are getting mixed up. I
said—when it became obvious that Ruby had shot him, we were watching
it on television, and we were, you know, how you are talking, “I think
I know him,” and I said, “I’m pretty sure I know Jack Ruby,” and I
said, “What is that idiot doing now?” Or something like that, and I
forgot that someone said, “That Oswald, I think I’ve seen him somewhere
before,” and that’s when I said it.

Mr. HUBERT. You said the same thing, “I think I’ve seen him?”

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When was it you began to associate Oswald as a man that
you had seen somewhere before—and as also the man you had seen in Jack
Ruby’s club the last time you were there?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe it was that day—not that I was associating
necessarily it with Ruby—it was that everybody all of a sudden had seen
him and they were trying to think where they had seen him and I was
trying to remember where I had seen him.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, my point is that you ultimately came to tell Jack
Green——

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Don Green.

Mr. HUBERT. Don Green, that you thought you had seen him at the
Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. When did that firm up in your mind, because from what I
gather it was not firmed in your mind where you had seen him, on the
Sunday when you were playing poker, isn’t that right?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Correct. I wasn’t positive then, no, where I had seen
him.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you become positive that you had seen him at the
Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I was thinking about it during the week, on
Thursday or Friday, and it dawned on me that that looked like the
fellow that I had seen in the Carousel.

There was another fellow up there that I had never seen before and made
a heck of an impression on me—he was about twice my size, a real flashy
dresser, white on white shirt and his suit was a very flashy type,
and he had just gotten married, but he, himself, made a heck of an
impression on me, the way he was dressed and his size, and this fellow
that I had seen in the Carousel made a heck of an impression on me the
way he was dressed—he was dressed sloppy—in a sloppy shirt and kind
of a gray khaki-type pants. I thought, “What is this idiot doing up
here?” You know, because it is known that the Carousel is a clip joint
and you’ve got to be an idiot to go in there in the first place, or a
tourist, one of the two, and I just ran—I guess you would just say that
it came into my mind that that looked like the fellow I had seen. I was
associating the sloppy dress with him because he was dressed sloppy on
television and when you see it repeatedly and repeatedly—you remember
it.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how you think the man might have been Oswald that
you saw in the Carousel was dressed on the occasion you saw him, which
was the last time you saw Ruby?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. He had on a white sweater and kind of a T-shirt-type
sweater, and a pair of, I guess they were gray khakis or they might
have been gabardine, there was no crease in them and they were real
sloppy and his hair wasn’t combed, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t talk to him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, I didn’t talk to anybody while I was there other
than Jack and I did meet that photographer—I don’t remember his name.
Jack introduced me, and I did meet that great big guy. He came back
into the office—he did once while I was in there with Jack and he
had just gotten married to some girl from Galveston and they were
celebrating their honeymoon and I was thinking, “You’ve got to be a nut
to come to a place like this to celebrate a honeymoon.”

Mr. HUBERT. When you came out of Jack’s office, did you see this man
that you think might be Oswald in there still?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. When you come out of his office, you can’t see
nothing—you walk down the hall and turn left and then you are back in
the club part of it—the Carousel.

Now, when I came back in the club part, the man that I thought was
Oswald had already seen Jack—I was the last one to see him—I don’t
think there were more than two or three people left in the club—this
big heavy-set fellow and his wife were still there.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this man you thought was Oswald was waiting
to see Jack?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he was ahead of you?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you had an opportunity to observe him then as the man
who got to see Jack before you did?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he there before you got there?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And was sitting down at the table?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he drinking something?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I don’t remember if he had something or not. He was in
front of me and all I could see was his back at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever get a look at his face?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. When he left he had to walk right by me. The door is
not more than—it’s one of these partition-type doors and it is not
more than 5 feet or 4 feet wide, and the table I was sitting at—I was
sitting at the edge of the door. I couldn’t help but see him when he
walked along there.

Mr. HUBERT. How long was he in with Jack?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No more than 10 or 15 or 20 minutes, maybe, at the most.

Mr. HUBERT. And when he came out you went in Jack’s office?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; you see, Jack’s office is back, in the back and you
got to walk down two halls and Jack came out and got me. This fellow
came out and then Jack came out and got me and I went back there with
him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe what this fellow you thought might be
Oswald did at that time?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. He went on out the door.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him again?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; not until I saw him on television—and I thought it
was the same one.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, that impression got firmer and firmer in your mind, as
I gather it, as the week went on?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. After that Sunday television seeing Jack shoot him
there; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But when you told Don Green your impression, it was not the
same day, was it?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; it was a week later.

Mr. HUBERT. It was actually the Sunday later?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe it was Saturday or Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. And the impression began to grow on you more and more that
it might well be the same man?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And as a matter of fact, as I understand you, it grew so
much that you thought you should tell someone about it?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I called Don and asked him what he thought I should do.

Mr. HUBERT. And he suggested coming to the office and I think you have
told us about that.

Was there another man around there you heard had come from California?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. There was somebody waiting to see Jack, like I said,
that was sitting—there was a aisle going straight and you got to turn
left—back by the pole where the light switches are, and he was waiting
to see him and I believe he said he was from California and he was in
his middle thirties, a black-headed fellow. I never met the man and he
saw Jack and he was still there when I left.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. This fellow we are speaking of now.

Mr. HUBERT. From California, you mean?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think he said he was from California. I think when I
came in the doorman said, “Well, there are two other people here and
the photographer to see him ahead of you,” when I first came in, and he
said, “He’s late now, but you can have a seat and wait if you want to.”
And the two other people were the fellow whom I assumed that looked
like this Oswald, and this fellow, I believe that said he was from
California and the photographer—were the three people in front of me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see the man who said he was from California talk to
the man you think was Oswald?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You had never seen Oswald before?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; never had.

Mr. HUBERT. You were shown pictures of Oswald, is that right?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was shown a police photograph of him, front and side
view, with three others.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your impression at that time as to whether Oswald
was the man you had seen in the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I wasn’t asked my impression at that time—all I was
asked is, “Pick out Oswald,” and I said, “There he is, anybody walking
in Dallas could do it.”

Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose in having you pick out Oswald?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I would imagine the police department wanted to know if
I really knew him or really had seen someone like him.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, when you picked out Oswald, were you simply picking
out Oswald because you had seen his picture on television, or were you
picking him out because he was the man you thought you had seen in the
Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. When I picked out his picture, I was picking it out
because I had seen it on television so many times.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, the police wouldn’t ask you to pick out Oswald’s
picture unless there was some reason for your specific identification
of Oswald.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well——

Mr. HUBERT. You had called Green, from what you tell me, to tell him
that you thought that you had seen a man who looked like Oswald at the
Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t that the reason why they were asking you to pick out
the man that you had seen at the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I would assume—I don’t know. I wouldn’t know their
reasoning behind it. I would assume this would be it, but when I picked
him out, I told them at the time, I made the statement, “Anybody in
Dallas could pick him out—he was on the TV so much.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever tell them that the man I now know is Oswald
from the films and that I am now picking him out is also the man that I
saw at the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. You told them that?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And you believe that to be true?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I thought it was until they convinced me I was wrong.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you think about it now?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I said, “It sure as heck looked like him,” that’s all I
can say now. Of course, I don’t want to say I’m definitely positive it
is—I said, “It’s a heck of a close resemblance.”

Mr. HUBERT. That’s your testimony right now, that as far as the man
you saw and have described—sloppy clothes, white jacket—T-shirt
type—go in and see Ruby before you on an occasion approximately 5
weeks before the assassination of the President, that that man and the
Oswald photographs later shown you, you think that they bore a close
resemblance?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; they do—they bear a resemblance.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather that you were more positive of the identity of
Oswald as being the man in the Carousel on the occasion we have been
speaking about at one time than you are now?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What has caused your opinion in the matter to weaken?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. The fact that they gave me the polygraphic test, that
showed when they asked me—was it definitely him, it didn’t show up
right, and the fact that I had told Don when I called him, I said, “It
sure as heck looks like him,” and when the police were questioning me,
they said, “Are you positive, are you positive, are you positive?”

I said, “It looks like him, it looks like him, it looks like him.” And
they come back, “Are you positive, are you positive?” And then the fact
that when the Federal agents talked to me, they said, “You know, if you
say you are positive and it wasn’t him,” it’s a Federal charge, and I
said, “Well, I’m not that positive.”

Mr. HUBERT. The Federal agent told you if you gave an opinion——

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; they said, “If you give false information as to an
exact statement—” not an opinion, but if I say I’m positive, that’s a
statement.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you conveying to me that you really were
positive, but that——

Mr. LITCHFIELD. In my mind.

Mr. HUBERT. You were scared off of it?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; no, sir. I said in my mind I was positive that
it looked like him, but I’m just as fallible as anybody else. I could
be 100 percent wrong. I said, “In my mind, the man that I saw looked
just like him,” but then again, I can’t say 100 percent.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is still your opinion?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I said it bears a close resemblance, but not having
come in contact with Oswald at all or having never met him or anything,
and just seeing him for a fleeting glance, the back of his head and
when he walked by me; no, I can’t be 100 percent pure positive.

Mr. HUBERT. But you knew all of that the first time you told it to
Green?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, like I said, “It sure does look like him—the man
I saw there sure does look like Oswald,” those are my words.

Mr. HUBERT. But, what has caused you to weaken in your opinion it was
Oswald, as you tell it to me, is the fact that you got the impression
that if you gave a positive identification and it proved to be false,
that it would be a Federal offense, is that correct?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; they said, giving false information to the FBI,
and I’m not 100 percent pure positive. I say, “It bears a close
resemblance,” and this is all I can say.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s all you did tell them?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir; that’s the statement I signed.

Now, the big heavy-set fellow that I met, I shook hands with, made an
impression on me. I was as close to him as I am to you now, or closer.
I shook hands with him, and I saw him more than for a fleeting moment.

Mr. HUBERT. I want to show you a picture and ask you if you can see any
resemblance between the picture I am going to show you and the man you
thought might be Oswald—this picture I am going to show you, the man is
dressed up, but if you can use your imagination to see if there is any
resemblance?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. To see if there is any resemblance?

Mr. HUBERT. To see if there is any resemblance in the face, at least,
and the hair, and so forth?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; Oswald’s hair isn’t that thick in the center.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m not talking about Oswald, I’m talking about the man you
saw at the club you thought might be Oswald.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; there is no resemblance.

Mr. HUBERT. There is no resemblance?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the picture that I have shown
to the witness has been identified as Exhibit 5302 in the deposition
of Andrew Armstrong. Do you know Captain Fritz of the Dallas Police
Department?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had difficulties with him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Once.

Mr. HUBERT. In what regard?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. He sent two men to the place that I was working and
had them pick me up for investigation without a warrant, bodily remove
me out of my office, and held me on robbery by firearms, which I
couldn’t have a writ of habeas corpus that night, or something, I had
to go before a judge or something, and I didn’t get out until the next
morning, and he didn’t even appear at the hearing.

Mr. HUBERT. How long ago was that?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. That was in—I think it was March or April of 1961, I
believe.

Mr. HUBERT. You haven’t seen him since?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, when I had to go down to the police station, I
did.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean the next morning?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; when I had to go down for questioning. No, he
didn’t even show up at the hearing there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Jess Willard Lynch
[spelling] J-e-s-s W-i-l-l-a-r-d L-y-n-c-h?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I don’t think so—the name doesn’t sound familiar. I
know a Lynch, but Jess Willard Lynch?

Mr. HUBERT. What Lynch do you know?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I know a Donald Lynch from school.

Mr. HUBERT. Is he in Dallas?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. How long has it been since you have seen him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. High school.

Mr. HUBERT. I see—that is to say about 10 or 12 years ago?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Roughly—that name doesn’t sound familiar.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a person by the name of Earlene Roberts?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Earlene Roberts—I don’t remember whether I know her or
not. Closely, I don’t—I could have dated her or seen her, but closely,
I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. I’ll put it this way, when I mention the name of Earlene
Roberts, do you associate it with anybody you know?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I used to go out quite a bit in my life, and I
went with a number of people, and I was thinking that I dated one time
a girl named Earlene, but I don’t remember her last name—that’s why I
stopped and hesitated.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s the person whose image came to your mind when I
mentioned Earlene Roberts?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know that Earlene Roberts, that I am talking about,
is the sister of Bertha Cheek?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. If she’s her sister, I was trying to think if I ever
met Bertha’s sister. I talked to her on the phone once. Bertha told me
she had two sisters, I believe, wait a minute—Earlene Roberts is the
one that lives in California, I believe, I believe it is, and Bertha
went out to see her, maybe, when Bertha went out to California 4 or
5 days on some business, and then I was helping her remodel the home
over there and painting then, and I think I had to call her and I think
Earlene Roberts was the person I called in California, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. You called the person in California for Cheek?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. To talk to Bertha when she was out there.

Mr. HUBERT. That was when?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Maybe October—maybe November.

Mr. HUBERT. It was after you were negotiating with her?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, but I don’t remember the exact date. I knew that
name sounded real familiar.

Mr. HUBERT. Bill DeMar, or have you heard of him?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. You will have to associate it with something for me.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, he was an MC at Jack’s Carousel Club.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I don’t know that man. I saw him—he did a song
or something while I was there, but I don’t know him, if that’s who it
is—I don’t know him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the story in the Press after Ruby shot
Oswald that he said that he had seen him at the Carousel?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. I never knew of that—I never knew that.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you been interviewed by anybody of the Commission’s
staff other than myself?

Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; the only people I have talked to is the Dallas
Police Force and to two FBI agents, and I didn’t have any knowledge
that you would talk to me until yesterday. They called long distance
for me and he called me this morning—I bowl in a scratch league on
Thursday night and he told me I had to be here at room 301 at 3 p.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, we pushed it up a little bit for you.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, Mr. Sorrels called me this morning and asked me if
I could make it earlier, and I said “I will leave on the flight 11:45
and I am booked definite at 5:15 going back and on a standby on this
one here.”

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you can make the 5:15 now, because you are through
right now.

Mr. LITCHFIELD. Thank you very much. I enjoyed it. I will get to see my
wife for a while.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much.



TESTIMONY OF ALICE REAVES NICHOLS

The testimony of Mrs. Alice Reaves Nichols was taken at 2:15 p.m., on
April 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W.
Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.


Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record that Mrs. Alice Reaves Nichols
is present, and before we began anything, she walked into the room
and she asked me if it would be possible to withhold her name from
the press. I told her I would check. I have talked with Mr. Hubert
of our office, to find out what the policy has been in the past, and
he assured me that in the past we have, on the request of witnesses,
not released the name to the press. I stated previously that all we
have ever released is the name. We have never discussed and will not
discuss with the press any testimony. However, we can’t give you any
assurance that they won’t find out you were here. For example, there
are newspaper reporters all over this building, and I don’t recognize
them and perhaps you will, and perhaps they might recognize you or try
to find out, if they don’t recognize you, who you are. Unfortunately,
anything they can learn about what goes on is something that they want
to print, so we can’t assure you that the name won’t go out, but we can
assure you it won’t get out from anything we do. I am sorry we can’t
give you any more protection than that.

Mrs. NICHOLS. I appreciate that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a
special consultant to the General Counsel’s staff of the President’s
Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.

This Commission has been set up under a couple of governmental acts,
one of which is an Executive order issued by President Johnson on
November 30, 1963, and another one from the joint resolution of
Congress. The effect of both of these acts has been to establish a
Commission with a staff which has power to subpena witnesses and take
testimony and conduct an investigation and prescribe various rules and
procedures, and we are operating under these rules of procedure.

I might explain that under the rules of the Commission I have been
specifically designated to come here and talk to you and take your
deposition. Now the purpose of this deposition is to inquire into
all of the facts and evaluate the facts and report back to President
Johnson on the facts that have to do with the death of President
Kennedy and the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. In your particular case,
Mrs. Nichols, you have known Jack Ruby for many years, and you have
been good enough to tell the FBI at some length what you knew about
him. We want now to see if there is any more that can be added by
this type of questioning. But we are also interested, I might add, in
anything you might know that might have any significance to the whole
investigation we are conducting.

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you got a letter from the Commission asking you
to appear?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I did. I had a telephone call first.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From Mr. Sorrels of the Secret Service?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; it wasn’t Mr. Sorrels. I believe the man said his
name was Howell.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Howlett?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you receive your letter?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I received a letter last Friday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I might also say, I don’t want to scare you by saying
this, because we say it to everybody, that you are entitled under the
rules of the Commission to appear here with an attorney if you so
desire, and it is not unusual that people do that. But I see that you
don’t have an attorney here, and I take it that you don’t desire one.

Mrs. NICHOLS. I didn’t think it was necessary.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Most people do feel that way. It is an expense, for one
thing.

Mrs. NICHOLS. I know several attorneys here, but I didn’t think it was
necessary.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I don’t think anything will come up in the course of
your deposition that should make you feel you want an attorney. But I
always want to make clear that at any time throughout your deposition
you are free to stop the thing.

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We try to be pretty nice, and I don’t think we will have
too many difficulties. Let me ask you then if you have any questions
about the deposition that is to be taken, before I ask you to raise
your hand and be sworn? Anything that you think you would want to know?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I don’t know of anything.

Mrs. GRIFFIN. All right, would you raise your right hand.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give the court reporter your full name.

Mrs. NICHOLS. Alice Reaves Nichols.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Mrs. Nichols?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your maiden name?

Mrs. NICHOLS. My maiden name was Small: Alice Reaves Small.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live right now?

Mrs. NICHOLS. 8707 Redondo.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I hate to ask embarrassing questions of women, but could
you tell us when you were born?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. February the 1st, 1915.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you lived in Dallas all your life?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I lived away from Dallas. I was born and raised here, but
I lived away about 7 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. From 1937 to about 1944.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I am.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Southland Life Insurance Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you do there?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I am a secretary.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you work for anyone in particular?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I am secretary to the vice president and treasurer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is his name?

Mrs. NICHOLS. John E. Mangrum.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I want to ask you if you will hand me those two
documents that you have there?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to mark them and ask you some questions in
connections with them. I want to hand you what I have marked as
“Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1964, Alice R. Nichols’ Exhibit 5355.” This
document consists of a number of pages starting with the No. 283, at
the bottom, going through page 291.

It purports to be a copy of a report of an interview that you had with
two FBI Agents, Mr. Albert Sayres and Mr. Paul Scott on November 25,
1963. I am going to hand it to you and ask you if you had a chance to
read that over before the deposition started?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is there anything in there that you feel is not
accurate, an accurate report of what you told the FBI on that day? I am
not referring to whether or not you, after thinking about it, that you
make some changes, but whether you noticed anything in there that does
not accurately reflect what you said at that time, and if so, whether
you want to make some changes in it?

Mrs. NICHOLS. There are a few things in here that I notice that are not
exactly right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, let me ask you if you would refer to the page
on which the mistaken material appears, and if you would read the
material that is mistaken and then we will talk about it.

Mrs. NICHOLS. I may have said it as it is here, but I know that I said
that I didn’t think that Joe Bonds had an interest in the Vegas Club.
But after thinking it over, I believe that he had for a short time an
interest with Jack Ruby. But I believe that at this time that I talked
with the FBI men, I had forgotten about that. But since thinking it
over——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you pick out of there what page that appears on?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Let me put on my glasses. [Looks through document.]

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe I can find it for you.

Mrs. NICHOLS. I read it in there. It is in there some place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This would be on page 284. Let me read the language to
you, and you can tell me if that is what you had reference to.

The paragraph at the top of the page which reads: “During the time she
was associated with Jack Ruby, Ruby was friendly with one Joe Bond when
he operated the club on West Commerce Street in Dallas, Texas. She did
not believe that Ruby and Bond were ever associated in any business.”

Mrs. NICHOLS. That is it. Yes; that’s right, I believe for a short time
that Joe Bond had an interest in the Vegas Club with Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now has something happened since this interview, the
original interview that you had with the FBI that made you remember
that or think that Joe did have some business interest in the Vegas?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I have just thought over the questions that they asked
me, and I recall that I believe that he did. I have been thinking it
over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think that he did have?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I think that Jack Ruby told me himself that Joe
Bond had an interest.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am trying to get at here is, is there anything in
particular that made you remember this?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; nothing in particular.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else in this interview of November 25,
that you think ought to be changed or corrected?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now let me hand you what is marked for the purpose of
identification as Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1964, Alice R. Nichols’
Exhibit 5356. This document consists of two pages, and it purports to
be a copy of an interview that you had with another FBI Agent, Mr.
Albert Sayres. I guess you talked with Sayers on the 25th, also, but
this interview was on January 18, 1964. Have you had a chance to read
that over?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions or corrections you would make in
that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; that is correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I want to go back, and I am going to ask you some
questions that are, some of which are biographical and some have to do
with Jack Ruby, and some helter-skelter. When did your husband die?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I was divorced in 1947, but he didn’t die until
1961.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do for a living?

Mrs. NICHOLS. While we were married, he was with Commercial Standard
Insurance Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that here in Dallas?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do after your divorce?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I didn’t talk to him very often. He went into the
insurance adjusting business, his own business for a while. Then I
understand at the time of his death he was in the jewelry business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a Nichols’ Garage here in town. Is that any
relationship to your husband?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; it is not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe also that the building that Jack had the
Carousel Club in is owned by the Nichols’ family or by the Nichols’
estate.

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; I have heard that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that any relationship to your husband?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; there is no relationship.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to meet Jack Ruby?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I first saw him in a grocery store.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. It was close to his Silver Spur nightclub, there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. South Ervay Street?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. I was in a grocery store.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living in that general area?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No. My mother lived close by.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you never met him before?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack come up and talk to you?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t. I had my daughter with me, and later on
when I was waiting for the bus to go home, he saw me standing on the
corner and he came over and introduced himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About when was that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. That was the early part of 1949. I don’t know the exact
date.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think in your earlier interview with Agent Sayres on the
25th, you indicated that you thought you had met him in about 1948.
Have you had a chance to think since then so that your feeling now is
that it was 1949?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember. I started going with him the latter
part of 1949, and I don’t remember the exact date. It was several
months after I first saw him before I ever went with him. I would say
it was 1948, winter of 1948 and 1949, somewhere in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is there anything by which you place it? You mean
that would have been late 1948, or early 1949?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember the month.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular way that you place it at that period?
Anything in your life that is significant that would place it in late
1948?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I can’t remember whether the weather was cold or what
I had on; whether I was wearing a coat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean the particular year. Anything happen during the
year 1948 that sticks out in your mind so that you could date your
meeting Ruby in relationship to that event?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I can’t remember exactly when I first met him, first
saw him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old is your daughter?

Mrs. NICHOLS. My daughter is 25.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So if it were 1948, she would have been about 9 years old?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; that’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you started to date Jack, how often did you see Jack?

Mrs. NICHOLS. It’s been so long ago. I think at first I probably saw
him about once a week, and then later on in the year or so, I would say
about twice a week, was about the most I ever saw him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack the kind of man that had any family interests or
seemed to show any interest in settling down?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, in settling down?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; in getting married and raising a family and leading a
conventional kind of married life?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He talked about it some for a period of time. Not all the
time I was going with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you describe Jack in terms of his impressions
and what he would look forward to and the kind of things he liked?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I think that Jack had a lot of drive. He was
ambitious. He was always looking for some way to make money, some
extra way to make money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything in particular that attracted you to
Jack? Made Jack attractive to you? Any particular quality about him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He was very nice to me. He always treated me with respect.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack, was he the kind of person that would unburden
himself to you with his personal problems and background?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he talked to me about some of his problems. I don’t
know that he talked to me about all of them, but he did discuss some of
his problems with me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of problems did he seem to have?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, his business problems. When he lost the Bob Wills
Ranch House, he discussed that with me. He was very upset about that.
He lost a lot of money in that deal. He had to go back to Chicago at
that time, and he discussed his business deals with me—when he bought
the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He didn’t seem to have any particular anxieties that he
would discuss with you? No personal problems; family problems?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, when his two brothers split up their partnership in
Chicago, he talked about that some to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he tell you about that particular problem?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He went back to Chicago that time to try to help settle
their differences.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if this was Earl and Sam?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What seemed to be the differences between the two?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I don’t know whether it was—well, I guess it was
just a financial, trying to work out. Sam sold out to Earl, and I think
it was just trying to work out a financial settlement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever indicate to you why Sam sold out to Earl?
Why Sam left the business?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I thought it was just because they weren’t getting along
together, the two brothers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever tell you why they weren’t getting along?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw Jack then on a once-a-week or twice-a-week basis
until about what, 1956 or 1957?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; and then after that I only saw him about once a
week. I saw him about once a week until the latter part of 1959, about
the latter part of November 1959.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you date that in 1959? What makes your memory
remember it as the latter part of 1959 as opposed to 1958 or 1960?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, the reason why I remember that is, I think it
was Christmastime, and we weren’t going together at Christmastime. I
remember thinking that I wouldn’t buy him a Christmas present.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he own the Carousel Club at that time?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he hadn’t taken over the Carousel Club at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you about any trips he took?

Mrs. NICHOLS. The only trips that I knew he took were a few trips to
Chicago, and I knew that he went to Havana one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did he go to Havana?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Only once.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when that was?

Mrs. NICHOLS. That was in 1959. It was September of 1959.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you——

Mrs. NICHOLS. The first part of September.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you remember it as that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, it seemed to me like it was around Labor Day, as I
recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how long Jack stayed in Havana?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Not exactly; but I would say he was there from a week to
10 days.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you why he went to Havana?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I thought it was a pleasure trip.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him off at the airport?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you who he was going to visit in Havana?

Mrs. NICHOLS. The only person he told me he was going to see in Havana
was a man by the name of McWillie. I don’t know if Mr. Mac was his
first name or whether McWillie was his last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever met McWillie?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When had you met him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I had seen him a few times. Jack had introduced me to
him. I had seen him in the Vegas Club a few times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack indicate to you what McWillie was doing in Havana?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He was managing the Tropicana Night Club, so I understood.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is this something that you actually remember yourself,
or something you know from having read about these things in the
newspaper?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I remember him telling me that he was at the
Tropicana.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack indicate whether he had any business interests
with McWillie?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He didn’t indicate that he had any business interests.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you at any other time about Cuba or
any interests he might have in Cuba?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel that Jack talked to you about all of his
enterprises; business activities?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I knew of nothing that he didn’t discuss with me. I
don’t know of any activities that he didn’t discuss.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did you feel Jack was the kind of person who might
do things that he wouldn’t discuss with people?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Discuss with people?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; with other people who weren’t involved in that
particular activity?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know. He always talked freely to me, I thought. I
never did feel that he—Jack was a big talker. He talks a lot; quite an
extrovert.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to break up with Jack?

Mrs. NICHOLS. It was a gradual thing. We had no quarrel. We just quit.
He quit calling me. We just quit going together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you indicated that Jack returned to Chicago from time
to time?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. That was about August 1952.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you place it in August?

Mrs. NICHOLS. As I recall, he lost Bob Wills Ranch House about April or
May 1952, and he stayed here several months, and it was around August,
I believe, when he returned to Chicago. And he stayed about 6 weeks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say he lost it, did he go into bankruptcy? Go
through some court proceedings or just sell it to somebody at a loss?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether he took bankruptcy or not. I don’t
remember. I don’t think he got anything. I don’t believe he sold it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he forced out of it by anybody?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I was under the impression that he just didn’t have the
money to continue operating. He just had to leave it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of place was this Ranch House?

Mrs. NICHOLS. It was a western type.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Restaurant?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; nightclub.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Striptease shows?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did Jack first go into the striptease business?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I was not going with Jack when he got into the
striptease business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the Silver Spur a strip joint?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Vegas Club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I believe he did for a time have a strip, a few girls
doing the strip at the Silver Spur, but that was a very short time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this while you were dating him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; but not—that was just for a few months. Maybe not
even that long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to start to employ them there?

Mrs. NICHOLS. How did he what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did he start to employ them there?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, his business was bad and he was just trying to find
some way to build his business up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have entertainment at the Ranch House, Bob Wills
Ranch House?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Have floor shows?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t believe he ever had a floor show. I never did see
a floor show there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a band?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He had a band.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And he sold liquor?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; well, they sold beer and set-ups.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that located?

Mrs. NICHOLS. That was on Corinth and Industrial.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he operate that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I can’t remember just when he started that. It wasn’t but
a few months. Probably, I would say about 6 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the Silver Spur in operation when the Ranch House was
going?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, when he sold the Ranch House, what did he do with
the Silver Spur?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He continued to operate both of them. Wait, I beg your
pardon. When he sold which one?

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Ranch House?

Mrs. NICHOLS. When he sold the Ranch House?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what happened to the Silver Spur?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He still had the Silver Spur when he sold the Ranch
House, but he sold the Silver Spur.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After he sold the Ranch House?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To whom did he sell the Silver Spur?

Mrs. NICHOLS. A man by the name of Martin Gimbel or Gimpel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after he sold the Ranch House did he sell the
Silver Spur?

Mrs. NICHOLS. It was very soon. I would say within—doesn’t seem to me
like it—seems like it was about a month after he sold the Ranch House.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know—had you met Martin Gimpel?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you known Martin Gimpel before he bought the
Silver Spur?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I met Martin Gimpel soon after I met Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Martin living in Dallas at that time?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did Martin continue to live in Dallas?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t recall how long. I don’t recall how long he lived
in Dallas. Several years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Martin married?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of. I really don’t know whether he was
married.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of man was Mr. Gimpel?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I didn’t know him too well. I talked to him a few
times, but he seemed very nice to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how he earned his living before he bought the
Silver Spur?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I know that before, he had punchboards for a while,
before it became illegal in Texas, and that is the only business that
I know of that he had. I was under the impression that he had a little
money, that he had saved a little money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever sell punchboards in Texas?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I think you indicated to the FBI that Gimpel is dead?

Mrs. NICHOLS. That is what I heard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you hear that he died?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember. Jack Ruby called me and told me that he
had died, but I don’t know how long ago that was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he die here in Dallas?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No. I believe he said he died in Oklahoma.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you have had a chance to sit here, Mrs. Nichols, do you
recall any better as to when it was that Gimpel died?

Mrs. NICHOLS. It is since I started going with Jack Ruby, and it was
several years ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you still going with Jack Ruby at the time he died?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I was not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were dating Jack Ruby, how often did Jack see
Mr. Gimpel?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he was usually, he helped Jack around the
nightclub, the Silver Spur and the Vegas Club, and I used to see him
when we would go in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of help would he give?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he just would sort of manage it, see that
everything was going all right. I think I had seen him use the cash
register. Just anything that was needed to be done around there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did Jack pay him for what he did?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you mentioned in your interview with the FBI
that Jack was friendly with a man named Rocky Robinson. Do you remember
that name?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see Rocky Robinson but about twice, and then
it was when we would be some place and he would be; we would run into
him. I never did see him with Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think you indicated to the Bureau that you thought that
Jack sold the Silver Spur to Rocky Robinson?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you have also testified that you thought he sold the
Silver Spur to Martin Gimpel?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, now, he sold the Silver Spur to Martin Gimpel
first, right after he sold or right after he lost the Bob Wills Ranch
House. He sold the Silver Spur to Martin Gimpel, and he went back to
Chicago and stayed 6 weeks, and then he came back and took over the
Silver Spur again from Martin Gimpel, and then it was later on he sold
the club to Rocky Robinson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Why did Jack come back from Chicago?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he told me that he liked Dallas. He wanted to stay
here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I presume when he left, did he intend to stay in
Chicago permanently?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I think that he did plan to stay in Chicago permanently
when he left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened in Chicago that made him change his mind
after he had been there for 6 weeks?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I thought it was because Martin Gimpel didn’t want to run
the Silver Spur and Jack had a chance to buy it back, and he came back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think that Jack actually sold the Silver
Spur to Martin Gimpel?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he told me that he did. I don’t know what the
consideration was. He didn’t tell me how much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Rocky Robinson still in town?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Rocky been a friend of Jack’s before he sold the
Silver Spur to Mr. Robinson?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he become a friend of Jack’s after Jack sold the
Silver Spur to Rocky Robinson?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of. I never did see Rocky Robinson but on
about two occasions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I believe you told the FBI that you had met Jack’s
father?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you meet Mr. Rubinstein?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Where?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. NICHOLS. Jack picked me up after I left the office and took me by
to meet his father one evening. That was the only time I ever saw his
father.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did the father happen to be in Dallas?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he and one of Jack’s sisters were visiting Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When Jack sold the Silver Spur, did he also at the time he
sold the Silver Spur to Rocky Robinson, own the Vegas Club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In late 1958 and on up to the time you stopped seeing him
in 1959 or 1960, did Jack own the Vegas Club?

Did Jack own any club in addition to the Vegas Club during this 1-year
period prior to the time you stopped seeing Jack? Did he operate any
clubs besides the Vegas Club in that year?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In that year before you stopped seeing him, did Jack ever
discuss selling the Vegas Club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember him ever discussing selling the Vegas
Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your understanding that Jack was making a profit
off the Vegas Club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I suppose during the time that you were dating Jack, you
met most of his friends?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Jack introduced me to a lot of people while I was going
with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet a man by the name of Dewey Groom?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; I knew him slightly. I met him. He was a bandleader
at Jack’s Silver Spur for a while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After Jack closed the Silver Spur, did Jack continue to
see him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see him after that. I don’t know whether Jack
did or not. Jack did see most of the nightclubs; he went around to most
of the clubs and he probably did see Dewey Groom.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you know Ralph Paul?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge, when did Jack first become friendly
with Ralph Paul?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I don’t remember. Let’s see; I don’t remember
whether—I just can’t remember exactly when I first knew Ralph Paul.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he friendly with Ralph Paul when you first started
dating Jack?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I believe I went with him for several years before
I ever heard of Ralph Paul or met him. I just don’t remember when I
met Ralph Paul. I was trying to think whether I remembered him before
Jack went back to Chicago. I believe I met him before he went back to
Chicago in 1952.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any business connections with Jack at that
time?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Jack had mentioned that Ralph Paul had loaned him money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it, as you understand it, that Ralph first loaned
Jack money?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember exactly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Paul ever have an interest in the Vegas Club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; he had mentioned Gordon McLendon to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were dating Jack, how often did Jack contact Mr.
Paul?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I don’t know how often he contacted him. I would
see him around the club quite frequently.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you say that Mr. Paul, during the period you were
dating Jack, was one of the more frequent visitors to the Vegas Club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than the lending of money by Paul to Jack, do you
know of any other business relationship that Ralph Paul and Jack Ruby
had with each other?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were dating Jack, did you know George Senator?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I never did know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Jack Ruby was a friend of Gordon McLendon?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; he mentioned Gordon McLendon to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first hear Jack mention Gordon McLendon?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember. I would say several years before we
quit going together, before 1959, maybe 3 or 4 years. I can’t remember
when he first mentioned him to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack indicate to you about his acquaintanceship
with Mr. McLendon?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I think that he mentioned that Gordon McLendon had
given him some advertising time on his radio station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you understand it was free advertising time?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He didn’t say whether it was. I don’t recall him saying
whether he paid for it or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he know McLendon any way other than a business way?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether he went out with him socially or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. McLendon ever visit the Vegas Club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see him in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now did Jack ever mention the name of a man Stanley
Kaufman?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack know Mr. Kaufman when you began dating him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t believe he did. I never did hear him mention him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the nature of Jack’s acquaintanceship with Mr.
Kaufman?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he was Jack’s lawyer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack a social friend of his?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know. Well, I don’t know whether he ever went to
his home or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Kaufman visit the Vegas Club from time to time?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember ever seeing him in the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Tom Howard? Did Jack ever mention Tom Howard as
an acquaintance?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He had mentioned Tom Howard, but I had never seen—as far
as I know, they were not friends. I never did see them together.

I never did see Tom Howard in the club. But I have worked for Tom
Howard when I first started working for attorneys, and I knew that I
had known Tom Howard because I worked for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you work for Mr. Howard?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Right after I got my divorce in 1947, for a short time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then before you went to work for your present employer?

Mrs. NICHOLS. That’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have been employed continuously with your present
employer?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Since; yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for Mr. Howard?

Mrs. NICHOLS. About 6 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever mention Ed Pullman?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Who?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ed Pullman?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember that name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever mention the name of Frank Fisher?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever mention the name of Alex Gruber?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lawrence Meyers?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Mike Shore?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Buddy Heard?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, during the time that you were dating Jack, other
than the band that he would hire for his club, did Jack have business
contacts with the entertainment world?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Business contacts?

Mr. GRIFFIN. With the entertainment world?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether I understand. You mean personal,
individual, or bands?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; was it a regular practice of his to hire entertainers
other than the band to play at the Vegas Club? Singers and comedians or
dancers?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t hire any. He had a little colored boy one
time who used to put on a floor show out at the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that Little Daddy Nelson?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the only entertainer that you knew of that Jack
was connected with while you knew him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I believe you indicated to the FBI that Mr. Ruby was
very attached to his mother.

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he was devoted to his mother. He told me how—he had
remarked how much her death had hurt him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell whether he was more or less devoted
to his mother than to his father?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No. He seemed to be devoted to his father, too. He seemed
to be quite interested in his father’s welfare.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever mention to you in connection with his mother
that his mother had been a source of many problems to the family?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he had mentioned that she had been in an
institution; that she had a mental breakdown.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s attitude about that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He didn’t say much about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any hostility toward her on account of it?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever tell you how he happened to change his name
from Rubenstein to Ruby?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No. He had already changed his name when I first knew
him, and he never did tell me how he happened to do it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know that Jack had been associated with his brother
Earl and his brother Sam in a business in Chicago?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He told me that he had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever tell you how he happened to leave that
business and come to Dallas?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He told me that he came down here because his sister had
a nightclub here and she was having difficulty because business was
not going. He came down here to see if he couldn’t help her with the
nightclub business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever indicate anything about his relationship with
Sam and Earl in Earl Products?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He was a partner, I understood, in that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever indicate that he was dissatisfied in any way
with that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you about how close he was or friendly he
was with his brothers?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I got the impression that he was close to his
brothers, his whole family. He seemed to be close to the whole family.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What gave you that impression?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he was very upset when his brothers Earl and Sam
broke up their partnership, and he went up there to try to help settle
their differences, and he just—I always got the impression that he was
close to his family.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you mentioned a man by the name of Ned Weisbrod.

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As a person whom you thought was friendly with Jack, close
to him in one way or another. When did you first meet Mr. Weisbrod?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I believe that I met him soon after I met Jack. I would
say probably in 1950.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did they continue, Weisbrod, to be friendly with
Jack?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I had not seen him in—when I first knew Jack, he had the
Silver Spur, and I used to see Ned in there.

And after he took over the Vegas, I used to see him out there until
about—I think it was about the last 2 or 3 years I had not seen Ned in
there. And the same thing with this Sam; that they used to be together
a lot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sam Lassen?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. I had not seen either one of them in the Vegas Club
for, I would say, 2 years anyway before 1959, when we stopped going
together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever indicate why they stopped coming around?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any sort of quarrel that Jack had with them?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack seem to have any business relationship with
Weisbrod and Lassen?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were Weisbrod and Lassen more friendly with Jack than
Ralph Paul? Did you see them around more often than you saw Ralph Paul?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you also mention Adrian High as a person who was
friendly with Jack. And I believe, if my understanding is correct, that
High, Weisbrod, Lassen, and Ruby were sort of mutual friends?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether Adrian was a friend of Ned and Sam
or not. I have not seen Adrian High in, oh, since about, I would say
about 1956. I had not seen him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Weisbrod and Lassen are still in Dallas?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the last that you knew they were in Dallas?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I haven’t seen them since—the only place I ever saw them
was at the Vegas Club, and it’s been several years before I quit going
with Jack that I had seen them in there. At least 2 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack the kind of person that, if he had problems with
somebody or a dispute with somebody, that he would continue to talk
about it for some time after it occurred?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He didn’t talk to me about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know some people, when they have a problem, they just
have to talk and talk about it until it seems to get out of their
system. Did Jack seem to be that kind of a person?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t talk to me about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you ever see Jack getting into any fights with
anybody?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him hit anybody?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see him hit anyone. I know that he had had
trouble in the club. I would hear about it. But I never did see him. I
have seen him put people out of the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear of his fighting with somebody socially, in a
social quarrel?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The only time you know of his fighting or hitting somebody
was in connection with his acting as a bouncer for the club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see him, but I heard of it. I know that he
had a finger—he was putting a man out of his club and a man bit his
finger and he had to have it amputated, but I was not there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you dated Jack, how much money was he accustomed to
carrying with him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know. I never did ask him and he never did tell
me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Jack carry a gun with him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I have seen him with a gun when he would have his
moneybag for deposit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is his practice? You have seen him take money out of
the club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what was his practice? Would he have the gun at the
club, or where would he keep the gun?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether he had it at the club or whether he
carried it in his pocket.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him carry it in his pocket?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did ask him if he had a gun in his pocket, and
he never did tell me. I never did see him take it out of his pocket.
When we would go by the club, he would pick up the money and I would be
sitting at a table, and I don’t know when he got the gun, whether he
got it out of his pocket or whether he kept it at the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would you see the gun; on the table or where?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I just saw it with the moneybag, and we would walk
out to the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He would carry it in his moneybag?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I don’t remember ever seeing it in the moneybag,
but he used to put it on the seat with the moneybag.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he ever lock the money up in the trunk of his car?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see him do that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what did he use to do with his money after he took it
out of the club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I thought he put it in a night depository. He would
take me home first, and I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You also indicated to the FBI that Jack was a gambler,
liked to gamble?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see him gamble, but he told me that
he—several times that he had gone back to the Artists Club and played
cards after he took me home. I never did see Jack gamble. He never
talked to me about that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who the owner was of the Artists Club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know who owned it. A man by the name of Harris
was managing it. I think it was a musicians’ union.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of gambling would they have at the Artists Club?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see them gambling there, but I imagine it was
cards, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a——

Mrs. NICHOLS. They served food there, and we have gone up there late to
get something to eat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have a back room of some sort where they gambled?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know. I never did see them gambling there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Jack gambled with there?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how often would you say he would go there?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he only mentioned that to me for a short period of
time. I would say 3 or 4 months that he mentioned to me that he would
go up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a man by the name of Johnny Ross?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; I have seen him in the Vegas Club a few times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you described him as a gambler?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Jack told me that he was a gambler.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Jack ever gambled with him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Jack never did mention.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of gambling did Johnny Ross do?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have any business association with Johnny Ross?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now Jack called you on the day the President was killed?

Mrs. NICHOLS. That’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had it been before then that you had last seen
Jack?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I had seen him on the street one time in the spring of
1963 I didn’t talk to him. He was driving the car and I was walking.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before the time that you saw him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. And before that, it had been over a year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you talked to him on the telephone?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he had not called me in over a year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you told Mr. Sayres on the 18th of January that you
remembered that Jack had called you at about 2 o’clock on the 22d. How
did you happen to remember that at that time?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He called me sometime between 1 and 2, while I was out
for lunch and left his number for me to call him. And I called him back
as soon after 2, about 10 minutes after 2.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to know that Jack had called?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I go to lunch from 1 to 2 all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the first time that you talked with Mr. Sayres, you
didn’t remember apparently that Jack had called you?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or did you remember at that time?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he didn’t ask me about it and I didn’t think about
the importance of it until this investigation or for the defense
attorney asked me about that, if Jack had called me on that day, and I
remembered.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this investigator or one of Jack’s lawyers suggest
that you ought to call the FBI and let them know about this?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No. I got to thinking about it myself and I thought I
wanted to keep the record straight. I wanted to let the FBI know it,
too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the investigator indicate to you that you might
testify for Jack at the trial?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, no; he didn’t say. He didn’t tell me whether he
thought they would use me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some idea that you might?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, after I talked, after the investigator, contacted
me, I was afraid that I might be called.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever called?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I didn’t attach the importance to the telephone call at
the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you testify at the trial?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you willing to testify?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I didn’t want to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your reaction when you got this telephone call
from Jack shortly after the President had been shot?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I was just, I was surprised when he—after the
President had been shot?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that Jack had called you?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; I was surprised. We hadn’t been seeing each other
and I didn’t expect to ever hear from him again, and I was—he seemed to
be upset about the President’s assassination. I think everyone else was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think Jack called you?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know why he called me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever question his attorney about that?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I haven’t talked to—never did talk to his attorney.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked with Jack since then?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I have not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or any members of his family?

Mrs. NICHOLS. His sister-in-law has called me twice since that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that be his sister-in-law?

Mrs. NICHOLS. His sister-in-law, Sam’s wife.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever ask her why Jack called you that day?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I didn’t ask her why.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she ever indicate to you why he called you?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you talked with Jack, when you called him back at
around about 2:15 or whenever it was, did you indicate to Jack that you
were surprised to hear from him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I didn’t say anything to him about that, being
surprised.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The FBI reports here, Mr. Sayres’ report in his interview
of January 18, that Ruby was apparently calling to tell you what a
terrible thing he thought it was that President Kennedy had been
assassinated. Was there some question as to what Ruby really, why he
really was calling?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I was just surprised to hear from him. I don’t know
why he called me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what he said to you?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember the exact words, but the only thing, he
just talked about what a terrible thing the assassination was. It was a
very short, conversation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any particular thing he said?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or words that he used?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I don’t remember the words, the exact words that he
used.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you be able to tell me if he used the word,
“terrible,” there?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether he used the word, “terrible,”
or not. But generally it was just, he was just upset about the
assassination.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you at all about the effect that the
assassination would have on his business?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything particularly about President Kennedy?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he was talking about the assassination of President
Kennedy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any, did he say anything about what effect it
would have on the city of Dallas, the assassination?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t recall him saying that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you have a regular lunch hour?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your regular lunch hour?

Mrs. NICHOLS. From 1 to 2.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you place the time of the second telephone call
that Jack made to you?

Mrs. NICHOLS. In the evening?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, it wasn’t late in the evening, and I had finished
dinner and had my dishes washed and I was reading the paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time do you usually eat dinner?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I eat about 6.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody living with you at home?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I live alone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long does it usually take you to eat dinner?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I eat very slow in the evening. I usually listen to
music and I usually spend about 30 minutes, I would say. I take my time
and drink coffee and I sit at the table.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say to you when he called you?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he just was talking again about the assassination,
and he told me at that time that he was going to the synagogue.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say about the assassination on the second
occasion?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, what a terrible thing it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, weren’t you again surprised that he should call you?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, yes; I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I didn’t ask him why he called me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you indicate your surprise to him in any way?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I didn’t indicate it, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate that he would like to see you sometime?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No, he never; I can’t recall him asking how I had been or
anything personal. He didn’t say anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ask you how you felt about the assassination?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I told him I thought it was terrible, too, and I
was quite upset about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ask you for any advice of any sort?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You can’t think of any reason why Jack should have called
you?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The second time that he called you, did you have any
indication of where he was calling from?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I have no idea where he was calling from.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear any voices in the background?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Television set on?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I don’t remember hearing any noise.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you how soon he was going to the synagogue?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t tell me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you which synagogue he was going to?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t believe he did. I assumed it was Shearith Israel
because that is where he went.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you dated Jack, did Jack have any dogs?

Mrs. NICHOLS. He got his dog shortly before we stopped going together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But up until then, he had never owned a dog?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to buy the dog?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I think the first dog was given to him by someone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who gave it to him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No, I don’t know whether he told me or not. Or whether it
was anyone that I know. I just remembered where he got the dog, and it
was killed. It was run over a short while after he got it, so he got
another one right after that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of dog was given to him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. It was a dachshund.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the next dog that he got also a dachshund?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Up until the time that his dog was given to him, had he
expressed any interests in dogs?

Mrs. NICHOLS. His sister had a little dog that he—I don’t know whether
he—I believe it seemed like he had taken care of it some for her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Eva Grant?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; she had a dog.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a man by the name of Abe Kleinman?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; I believe he was a CPA or a bookkeeper. I believe he
kept Jack’s books, for a period of time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Floyd Turman, do you know him?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any police officers with whom Jack was
friendly?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I have seen police officers out there in the club,
but I never knew one in particular.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any of the women that he was friendly with
besides yourself?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know who else he dated.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about women that he saw in a business connection? Did
you see any women in the business? Did he see any women in a business
connection?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of. I don’t know of any.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anything else that we haven’t talked
about here today that you haven’t already told the FBI, that you think
would be of importance to the Commission?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I can’t think of anything that would be of importance.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you if, as time passes here, and if anything
does come to your attention which you think might be helpful to us, if
you would contact somebody in the Commission or contact the FBI or the
Secret Service and let them know?

Mrs. NICHOLS. I will be glad to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We also ask you, other than the interviews that Mr. Sayres
had with you, have you been interviewed by any member of this staff?

Mrs. NICHOLS. Of this staff?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to having your deposition taken here, did you and I
have any interview?

Mrs. NICHOLS. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t think I have any more questions to ask you.

I want to thank you for coming here and taking all this time to do it,
and I realize that you are a working woman and it is an inconvenience
to you.

Mrs. NICHOLS. That is quite all right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But it was quite nice of you to spend all of this time.

Mrs. NICHOLS. I am glad to help in any way I can.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much.



TESTIMONY OF ROBERT CARL PATTERSON

The testimony of Robert Carl Patterson was taken at 4:15 p.m., on April
14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.


Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself. My name is Burt Griffin, and
I am on the Advisory Staff of the General Counsel’s office of the
President’s Commission investigating the assassination of President
Kennedy.

This Commission has been set up by virtue of an Executive Order from
President Johnson which was issued on November 30, 1963, and also by
virtue of a Joint Resolution from Congress, No. 137.

As a result of these two official Acts, the Commission has been given
authority to put forth its own rules and regulations to accomplish the
purpose of the investigation which we have been asked to conduct, and
under these regulations I have been given authority to come here and
take your deposition, Mr. Patterson.

I want to explain to you a little bit about what the purpose of the
investigation is. The Commission has been asked to investigate,
evaluate and report back to President Johnson upon all the facts
surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent
murder of Lee Harvey Oswald.

We have asked you to come here this particular day, Mr. Patterson,
because we understand that you have had some acquaintanceship with Jack
Ruby. However, we are interested in anything that you might be able
to tell about the assassination of the President or anything that you
might think might be relevant to that.

We have a certain set of procedures that we follow in conducting these
depositions and in asking people to come here. I presume you got a
letter, did you not, from the Commission?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Signed by Mr. Rankin?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes; I think it was. I have it in my pocket. That’s
right. (Referring to letter.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you get the letter?

Mr. PATTERSON. Saturday, it was I got it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now also under the rules of the Commission I might explain
to you that anybody who desires to appear here with an attorney has the
right to do so, and we encourage people to do it. I notice that you are
not here with an attorney, and I take it it is because you don’t have
any desire to have one. However, if for any reason you think that you
would want an attorney, or as this interview progresses you think you
should want to be represented by an attorney, please feel free to tell
me about it and we will postpone matters and continue the deposition
at a later date. I presume by the fact that you are here without an
attorney, that you don’t desire to have anybody represent you?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I don’t think I would need an attorney, because
I don’t think—I don’t know it was that important, so far as I was
concerned.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I don’t see any reason why you should have one
either, but I want to tell you this so that you understand that you do
have a right to have an attorney, and I hope that if for any reason
that you think you want to be represented, feel free to state that.

Do you have any particular questions that you want to ask me about the
deposition that is about to begin before I ask you to be sworn? Feel
free to ask anything that comes to your mind, because I realize this is
an unusual experience for everybody who appears here.

Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t believe so other than how long?

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long will it take? I don’t think it will take very
long. I want to ask you to raise your right hand and I will administer
the oath.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PATTERSON. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give the court reporter your full name?

Mr. PATTERSON. Robert Carl Patterson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Patterson?

Mr. PATTERSON. 902 East Waco Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is in Dallas?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us when you were born?

Mr. PATTERSON. March 13, 1944.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you presently employed?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed?

Mr. PATTERSON. The Beachcomber.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of place is that?

Mr. PATTERSON. It is a night club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you do at the Beachcomber?

Mr. PATTERSON. Entertain.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind?

Mr. PATTERSON. Musician and singer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What instruments do you play?

Mr. PATTERSON. My major instrument is the guitar.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you sing any particular kind of songs?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I do mostly rhythm and blues and a few classicals.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been an entertainer?

Mr. PATTERSON. Approximately 5 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you a high school graduate?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. I’m in college.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are going to college?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are attending college right now?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you attending college?

Mr. PATTERSON. Arlington State.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in the Dallas area?

Mr. PATTERSON. It is in Arlington, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What are you majoring in?

Mr. PATTERSON. Music.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were interviewed sometime in December by an agent of
the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Do you recall that interview?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time you indicated that you had worked on some
occasions for Eva Grant, Ruby’s sister?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first work for Eva Grant?

Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t know the exact date. In fact, I can’t even
recall the month, but it was, I guess you could say, the last of the
summer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This summer, 1963, was the first time?

Mr. PATTERSON. 1963; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So the first time you worked for Eva Grant would have been
in the summer of 1963?

Mr. PATTERSON. Approximately. As far as I can recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much would you receive for a one night engagement with
Mrs. Grant?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, the pay varied from—I just played a one hour show,
say, about 10 or 15 minutes with a saxophone player. That is myself and
my band, and I would say the average pay I received was $8 for these 10
or 15 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you sometimes receive more and sometimes receive
less?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the least you received?

Mr. PATTERSON. $4.00.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the most that you received?

Mr. PATTERSON. $10.00.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you play there?

Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t know for sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you always appear with your saxophone player?

Mr. PATTERSON. Eighty percent of the time I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they pay the saxophone player separately?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they sometimes pay you?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you would pay the saxophone player?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are nodding yes?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever consult with Jack Ruby or with Eva Grant
about playing at Jack’s Carousel Club?

Mr. PATTERSON. No. It was my understanding that he had different type
music there than what I played.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How were you known to the Rubys; by what name?

Mr. PATTERSON. Mrs. Grant called me Bobby Patterson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever had occasion to talk with Jack Ruby?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, I talked with him several times about playing. He
wanted me to start playing in the Vegas, and we talked about salary and
hours and so forth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Patterson, I am going to hand you what I have marked
Exhibit 5357, which is a photograph of a page out of that notebook, and
I have marked this photograph, Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1964, Exhibit
5357, Robert C. Patterson, and I signed my name to it. Previously this
same photograph has been marked as Crafard Exhibit No. 5225, and as
Armstrong Exhibit No. 5305-E.

I want to hand you this and ask you to look at the notations on that
notebook. If you can’t read them, indicate to me that you can’t and I
will try to read them for you.

Mr. PATTERSON. I see Billy Brook. I can’t make out the second line.
Bobby Patterson, six something, special friend, and then a ten and two.
No, and quotation marks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have to keep your voice up so she can hear you.

Mr. PATTERSON. Three ... I can’t make out that word—I can’t make out
the next word, and 2409 Maple. LA 6-7568 for Robert Patterson—no,
Robert is all.

Three—now I can’t make out the next—six eight three seven four nine
thousand eight, oh six, fifty by a hundred and ninety-two.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of those notations shown in that
photograph as having anything to do with you?

Mr. PATTERSON. It would be my guess that these were some notations of
where he paid somebody, somebody paid us for playing one night, because
I think this Billy Brook is a singer. I remember Billy Brook that used
to sing over at the Vegas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he sing there while you also entertained there?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, a few times he was there. None of this other, I
don’t know what that could be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If that notation Bobby Patterson and friends had to do
with you, who would the friend be?

Mr. PATTERSON. Robert Simpson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the saxophone player?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a rate that was paid, six dollars to you and the
additional four dollars to Simpson?

Mr. PATTERSON. It could have been. We usually received the same pay. If
I got $5, he usually received $5. I don’t ever recall making any more
than he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is as much as you can remember about that?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has anything come to your attention in connection with
Jack Ruby or in connection with any of the work you have done for Jack
or his sister, Mrs. Grant, that you think would be of value to the
Commission?

Mr. PATTERSON. No, I can’t recall anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you actually talk with Jack Ruby?

Mr. PATTERSON. I couldn’t pinpoint it to a certain number of times, but
I can approximate.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us your best estimate?

Mr. PATTERSON. You mean on the phone and in person?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. PATTERSON. About 15 times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many of these times would have been in person?

Mr. PATTERSON. Not 10 times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were all the times that you met him in person at the Vegas
Club?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you seen him besides at the Vegas Club?

Mr. PATTERSON. He came to my house one night to talk to my mother about
me playing for him, and him taking over as my manager and promoting a
record for me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. PATTERSON. Some time in the first of November, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of record was he interested in promoting?

Mr. PATTERSON. Just a rock ’n roll record that he wanted to promote for
me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you already cut the record?

Mr. PATTERSON. I already record for another company and he said he had
some connections with a better record company that he could, you know,
he wanted me to record some new records.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who do you record for?

Mr. PATTERSON. Future.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that office located?

Mr. PATTERSON. Arkansas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Arkansas?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have to go up to Arkansas to cut the record?

Mr. PATTERSON. No, we cut here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many records have you cut for Future?

Mr. PATTERSON. Two.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with Jack about promoting a particular
song?

Mr. PATTERSON. Not a particular song.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But about promoting you?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack say to you and what did you say to him?

Mr. PATTERSON. He said he had connections with Reprise.

Mr. GRIFFIN. R-e-p-r-i-s-e?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. It is pronounced Reprise, with which Frank Sinatra
has something to do with, and never did say what Frank Sinatra had to
do with it, but he said he knew some people in this line that he would
have no trouble getting a record promoted and distributed nationally.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your response?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I told him if he could get this done, fine, I
would consider recording for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he make an effort to have that recording done?

Mr. PATTERSON. No. He was trying to get me to play in the Vegas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the Vegas or the Carousel?

Mr. PATTERSON. In the Vegas. And I never did think too much about the
recording, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time he talked to you about the recording, had you
ever played at the Vegas?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what do you mean he was trying to get you to play
there?

Mr. PATTERSON. The band he had was leaving, quitting, had quit already,
I would say, and they had been there a long time, for a number of
years, and they quit. And he wanted my band to start playing there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you feel about playing at the Vegas?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I didn’t really want to because the pay was too
low and the hours were too long. But he propositioned me to cut the
number of hours because I was going to college, and the other saxophone
player was too going to college, and the other two guys worked.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So did you finally agree to play at the Vegas with your
band?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the last that you talked to him about playing at
the Vegas?

Mr. PATTERSON. About—I don’t know the exact—it was one Sunday evening,
I would say, approximately two weeks before the incident.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before the assassination of the President?

Mr. PATTERSON. Could have been a week and a half or a week anyway in
there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time Jack didn’t have a band playing at the Vegas?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes; he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He did have a band?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. He had hired one band and one band had quit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He hired another one?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the plan was that he would have had your band replace
the one that was already playing there?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with Jack Ruby any place except at your
house and the Vegas Club?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, he came out to hear us. We were playing at SMU
college and he came out to hear the band.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. PATTERSON. This was the same Sunday that I talked to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other places that you talked to him?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I had an interview on the radio one night at the
Circle Bowl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where?

Mr. PATTERSON. Circle Bowl; bowling alley.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What radio station?

Mr. PATTERSON. KBOX.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to be interviewed there?

Mr. PATTERSON. It was the first night I met Jack Ruby. I was playing at
the Vegas. I did the show, and Mrs. Grant called me over and introduced
me to him, and he said, “I like the way you play. Do you want to talk
on the radio?” So I said, “Sure.” So he said, “Follow me,” and me and
Robert Simpson followed him over to the Circle Bowl, and Jack West was
doing his night program and he interviewed me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. PATTERSON. It was the first night that I met him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Back in the summer sometime, 1963?

Mr. PATTERSON. No, I didn’t know him, but I would say a month or month
and a half at the most prior to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But he called or spoke to you either in person or on the
telephone about 15 times in that month or month and a half?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. I mean in the same day and stuff like that, you
know, on different occasions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on any of these occasions that you saw him in person,
did he have anybody else with him?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. The night I met him, he had somebody else with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At SMU?

Mr. PATTERSON. No. I met him at the Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did he have with him?

Mr. PATTERSON. He introduced me to a guy that was entertaining at the
Carousel, Billy DeMar. I think that is the last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else with him that night?

Mr. PATTERSON. A little short guy. I don’t know his name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a Negro boy or a white one?

Mr. PATTERSON. I think he was just—he was an old man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how old a man would you say he was?

Mr. PATTERSON. I would say he was in his late forties.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How tall was he?

Mr. PATTERSON. About my size, about 5’2”.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his build, heavy, medium or thin man?

Mr. PATTERSON. For his size, he was kind of fat. Stomach went like that
[indicating].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he balding, or did he have all of his hair?

Mr. PATTERSON. I think he was balding.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if he wore glasses?

Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he appear to be a business associate of Jack Ruby’s?

Mr. PATTERSON. I couldn’t tell. I didn’t ride in the same car with him
or nothing. I just saw him with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This other fellow didn’t do any of the talking?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, we were talking about promoting the record and he
said, “Jack will put you over, don’t worry.”

He says, “If he likes you, he likes you, and if he don’t like you, he
don’t like you.” I remember him saying that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see this man again?

Mr. PATTERSON. No, I never did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet any other people with Jack?

Mr. PATTERSON. His roommate, George. I don’t remember his last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you meet George?

Mr. PATTERSON. At their apartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go up to Jack’s apartment?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, it was the same night that he came over to SMU to
listen at us, and he said, “What are you fixing to do?”

I said, “I am going home.” It was on a Sunday after we got through
playing and he said, “Why don’t you come by and let’s discuss, you
know, the pay that I would pay you and the hours and so forth.” So he
didn’t live too far from my house, and we stopped by there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You and your trumpet player?

Mr. PATTERSON. No, just me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And Jack—was Senator with Jack at SMU?

Mr. PATTERSON. Who?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was George, was he with Jack?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At SMU?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you got to Jack’s apartment, the roommate was
there, George?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else there?

Mr. PATTERSON. The dog, and another woman and a man came in. I had seen
her over to the club working. I guess she was related to him in some
way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You had seen her at the Vegas Club?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been Mrs. Grant?

Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time of the night did this man and woman come in?

Mr. PATTERSON. I guess it was around 8 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at the apartment that night?

Mr. PATTERSON. About 20 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice anything unusual about the apartment?

Mr. PATTERSON. No. Just an apartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the only time you ever saw George?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before the assassination of the President was it
that you went to Jack’s apartment?

Mr. PATTERSON. Approximately 2 weeks or 2½, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And it is your recollection that this was a Sunday?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have any record at home from which you could
determine when that was? Any record of being paid at SMU which would
indicate when it was?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The man who came into the apartment that Sunday night with
the woman, how old a man did he appear to be?

Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t recall, but I would say he was in his middle
thirties or maybe 40. I didn’t pay that much attention, because I don’t
think I ever seen him before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he appear to be a Jewish man?

Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t know. I don’t think I ever heard him talk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How tall do you recall him being?

Mr. PATTERSON. Maybe 5’ 11”, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his build, fat, medium, thin?

Mr. PATTERSON. He was fairly thin, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was the only occasion that you were ever in Jack’s
apartment?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet him any other places?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet any of the people who worked at the
Carousel Club outside of Billy DeMar?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anything else that you could tell us
about Jack Ruby, about your meetings with him or acquaintanceship with
him?

Mr. PATTERSON. Well, like I say, I hadn’t known him but about a month
and a half. Maybe a month. It might have been 3 weeks prior to this
incident, and I didn’t know him that well, but he was trying to get us
to play over there, because a band he had had for so long had left, and
the one he had wasn’t doing as good a job as he felt they should, and
having a lot of trouble. Actually, my business dealings with Jack were
with Mrs. Grant, and he came in one night while I was performing and
she called me over and introduced me to him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Patterson, I want to hand you a copy of a report that
the FBI made after the interview with you on December 16, 1963. It is a
copy of an interview report made by Special Agent James E. Garris, FBI,
and pertains to an interview with you on the 16th of December 1963.

I don’t know if you had a chance to read it, but, if you would, read
it over and tell me if there are any additions or corrections that you
would make to that other than what you have already told me here today,
and also, if you would, indicate to me if that is a true and accurate
report of the interview that you had with Mr. Garris? [Document marked
Patterson Exhibit No. 5358.]

Mr. PATTERSON. This part where it says intermittently for several
years, I wouldn’t say it was several years. More like a year, maybe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you indicated to me that the first time you ever
worked for Eva Grant was back in the summer of 1963?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That wouldn’t even be a year. Is there something that
makes you think that you worked for or knew her even before then?

Mr. PATTERSON. Sure. All the bands, more or less. I mean, knew of the
place, you know, because I had a friend, Joe Johnson was playing there,
and occasionally we would stop by and sit in, play a few numbers, so
therefore——

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. PATTERSON. I guess that is what I meant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you would qualify the statement which reads as
follows:

“He has worked for Eva Grant, Jack Ruby’s sister, at the Vegas Club in
Dallas intermittently for several years as a guitar player and singer.”

You would state instead that for maybe a year before this interview on
December 16, you had visited the Vegas Club occasionally to see your
friend Joe Johnson, and that on those occasions you had sat in with Joe
Johnson’s band?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But that you never actually began to work there for money
until the summer of 1963?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes; I couldn’t pinpoint it whether it was the summer,
beginning or end of the summer, really. I don’t actually recall. I
would have to go back and get—she put a few advertisements in the paper
with my name, and I can go back and look at them. I don’t remember, I
played so many places.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you belong to any musicians’ union?

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes; I did once.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you a member of any union when you were playing for
Eva Grant at the Vegas Club?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any agent at the time you were playing for
Eva Grant at the Vegas Club?

Mr. PATTERSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you said already that you don’t have anything more
that you could add, and I take it that there is nothing more that you
would change in this interview report, is that correct? Or would you
make some more changes in the interview report other than what we have
already discussed today?

Mr. PATTERSON. About Jack Ruby?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, or about anything that appears in this interview
report. You hesitate like you think there are some other things you
could tell us. Let me encourage you to come forward and tell us
everything that you do know.

Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, this is all I remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. I would like to ask if you in the future, or if you
should remember anything or anything should come to your attention
which could be of any assistance to the Commission, please get in
touch with the Commission or, if it would probably be easier to get in
touch with the FBI or Secret Service, let me know what it is.

I appreciate your coming out here this afternoon and speaking with us.
You have had to wait around a long time to get here, and I certainly
want to apologize for inconveniencing you and tell you again that we
appreciate very much the time you have given us, and the help you have
provided here, and it’s been very nice meeting you.

Mr. PATTERSON. Thank you.



TESTIMONY OF RALPH PAUL

The testimony of Ralph Paul was taken at 8:03 p.m., on April 15, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan
and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant
counsel of the President’s Commission.


Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Ralph Paul.

Mr. Paul, my name is Leon Hubert, I am a member of the advisory staff
of the General Counsel of President Johnson’s Commission to investigate
the death of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee
Harvey Oswald. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated
November 29, 1963, issued by the President’s Commission, the Joint
Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by
Congress in conformance with that Executive order and joint resolution,
I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition of you, Mr. Paul. I
state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts related to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Paul, the nature of the inquiry tonight
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about
Jack Ruby and his associates, and his business and social friends
and so forth. Now, I believe you have appeared here as a result of a
letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, the General Counsel of the
Commission, advising that we would be here and requesting that you
appear. Was that letter received by you more than 3 days ago?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand up and take the oath, please? Do you
solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Paul, will you state your name for the record, please?

Mr. PAUL. Ralph Paul.

Mr. HUBERT. And how old are you, Mr. Paul?

Mr. PAUL. I will be 65 this December.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?

Mr. PAUL. Right now I live with some friends—I’m building a house in
Arlington, 1602 Browning Drive.

Mr. HUBERT. The letter of request to appear was addressed to the
correct place?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; both places.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that you are the owner or manager, and that is
one of the things we want to clarify, of the Bull Pen?

Mr. PAUL. I am the owner.

Mr. HUBERT. You are the owner?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a corporation?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the name of the corporation?

Mr. PAUL. That is Bappo [spelling] B-a-p-p-o.

Mr. HUBERT. That is Bappo, Inc., isn’t it?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is a closely held corporation, I take it?

Mr. PAUL. Well——

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, do you own all the stock?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And, of course, the corporation owns the business and you
manage the business?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any other occupation at the present time?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you lived in Dallas?

Mr. PAUL. In Dallas—itself?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, let’s put it in the Dallas area, first. I
mean—Dallas-Fort Worth area.

Mr. PAUL. Okay—I came in December 1947.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live prior to that time?

Mr. PAUL. New York, New York City.

Mr. HUBERT. In New York City?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think that you originally are an immigrant, is that
correct?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That information, I believe is information in the statement
you have given.

Mr. PAUL. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what it was that caused you to come to Texas
from New York?

Mr. PAUL. I was connected with some show people and they came down here
and told me how great Texas was, and I came down, and in fact I came
down and leased the club, leased the Sky Club at first, and we stayed
there a month and then we bought it.

Mr. HUBERT. Leased which one?

Mr. PAUL. The Sky Club.

Mr. HUBERT. That was in 1947?

Mr. PAUL. That’s actually in 1948, I mean, I came to Dallas 2 days
before New Years or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Two days before New Years in 1947, so it’s practically 1948?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any connections here when you came?

Mr. PAUL. No—I didn’t know anybody here.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say “we”, you mean you and your wife?

Mr. PAUL. No—that entertainer and her husband brought me down here.

Mr. HUBERT. What were their names?

Mr. PAUL. Joe Bonds and Dale Belmont—it’s also in there.

Mr. HUBERT. They were husband and wife?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And they had been here before?

Mr. PAUL. They had been here before.

Mr. HUBERT. And they interested you in coming into this area?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave all your business and social connections in
New York?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you married?

Mr. PAUL. No; not at that time I came down from New York.

Mr. HUBERT. You have been married since?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You are not married at all?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You never have been married?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And is your wife dead or are you divorced from her?

Mr. PAUL. We got divorced in 1931.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have never remarried?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you supposed to supply capital to the venture?

Mr. PAUL. What venture?

Mr. HUBERT. With Joe Bonds?

Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say it was in a very short period after arriving
here you got interested in a place called the Sky Club?

Mr. PAUL. No; they interested me to come down here—they interested me
to come down here and rent the Sky Club from a man called Satterwhite,
and after we stayed there a month, he decided to sell it to us and then
is when we bought it.

Mr. HUBERT. Who put up the capital?

Mr. PAUL. We put up some capital—the rest of it was by notes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the corporation formed then?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So, it was owned by you and Bonds?

Mr. PAUL. Ralph Paul and Joe Bonds.

Mr. HUBERT. Half and half?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did that venture last?

Mr. PAUL. I sold out my interest in May of 1948.

Mr. HUBERT. So, it lasted a very short period of time?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you sell it to?

Mr. PAUL. I sold it to a man from Miami that came up here looking for
business—I can’t think of his name—Rosenheim.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember his first name?

Mr. PAUL. I think it’s some place in this—that is, his first name is.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s all right, we will get to that. What sort of place
was the Sky Club—what was it?

Mr. PAUL. A nightclub.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was it located?

Mr. PAUL. On the Fort Worth Cutoff. I think the address was six
something Fort Worth Avenue.

Mr. HUBERT. What venture did you go into after that?

Mr. PAUL. I opened up a bar in downtown Dallas called the Blue Bonnet,
underneath the Blue Bonnet Hotel.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you rent the premises there and operate the bar
yourself?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any partners in that?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you maintain that occupation?

Mr. PAUL. I maintained it close to 5 years. I opened it in November and
sold it 5 years later in September.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you would have opened it in November 1948?

Mr. PAUL. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And you would have sold it?

Mr. PAUL. In September 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. 1953?

Mr. PAUL. No; 1953—that’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And what did you do after 1953?

Mr. PAUL. Well, I didn’t do nothing for several months and then I and
Chris Semos opened up the Miramar Restaurant on Fort Worth Avenue.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was a partnership too?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; that was a partnership.

Mr. HUBERT. It was not a corporation?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, this Chris Semos, did he put up the money?

Mr. PAUL. We both put up some money and the rest was notes.

Mr. HUBERT. And what was the name of that?

Mr. PAUL. Miramar Restaurant.

Mr. HUBERT. That was a restaurant?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And nightclub, was it?

Mr. PAUL. No, just a restaurant and drive-in.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you operate that?

Mr. PAUL. Close to 3 years—about 3 years less 2 months.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you operated that until, say, July of——

Mr. PAUL. No; I operated that until February.

Mr. HUBERT. Of what year?

Mr. PAUL. Of 1957.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you sell that, then?

Mr. PAUL. I sold it to Chris Semos.

Mr. HUBERT. You sold the whole thing to him?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you take a note from him?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that in your income tax returns for some later
years you show interest received from Chris Semos of about $250 a
month; is that interest on that note?

Mr. PAUL. No; it’s $125 a month for seven years, that includes $100 a
month payments and $25 interest.

Mr. HUBERT. I beg your pardon—that’s what I meant to say.

Mr. PAUL. That’s $250 a year—and one time it was $250 because he
wouldn’t pay 2 months.

Mr. HUBERT. The interest you show as received, I said $250 a month, I
meant to say it was $250 a year.

Mr. PAUL. That’s right, $250 altogether, and one year he didn’t pay
full so it was only $250.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that loan paid out now?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. So, in February of 1957 you didn’t have any business
connections?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Sir?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir. I went into partners with Jack Ruby’s brother, Sam,
and in a little ice cream place. We opened up April 25, 1957, and
closed it—we didn’t close, we gave the lease away so they wouldn’t
hold us responsible for the lease, and we lost some money because the
fixtures that we bought was more.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you operate that?

Mr. PAUL. May, June, and July.

Mr. HUBERT. Just a few months?

Mr. PAUL. We saw it didn’t make, so there was no use in wasting time.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your next business venture then?

Mr. PAUL. Next, I didn’t go in business, I was helping Jack Ruby in the
Vegas Club from August until the following year—May.

Mr. HUBERT. August of what year?

Mr. PAUL. August 1957, to May 1958.

Mr. HUBERT. You were with Ruby, you say, at the Vegas Club?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; I just was helping him.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean on a salary?

Mr. PAUL. Well, no—it wasn’t really a salary. I helped him out on
Friday and Saturday.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any compensation at all?

Mr. PAUL. Well, the only compensation I received he owed me some money,
he paid me back.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps at that point then we should go back to—so
that you may tell us when you first met Jack Ruby.

Mr. PAUL. Like I said over here, it was one of these improvised
meetings that you meet somebody that comes over to you and introduces
himself.

Mr. HUBERT. When was it, about; do you know?

Mr. PAUL. 1958.

Mr. HUBERT. In 1958?

Mr. PAUL. I mean, in 1948.

Mr. HUBERT. In 1948?

Mr. PAUL. Those years fly back so fast, 1948. That’s the year I was up
to the Sky Club yet.

Mr. HUBERT. And he simply came over and introduced himself to you?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; he says, “I’m Jack Ruby. I own the Silver Spur.” I don’t
think it was known as the Silver Spur, but I can’t recall the name
it was known then. It keeps on running in my mind that it wasn’t the
Silver Spur—it was another name, but I can’t remember it.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it the Singapore?

Mr. PAUL. That’s it.

Mr. HUBERT. It was the Singapore?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he told you he was the owner of the Singapore?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And subsequently that became the Silver Spur.

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any business connections with Ruby at all
until he got to owe you some money?

Mr. PAUL. Well, I’ll tell you the whole thing—the whole story.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; that’s best—that’s the best way to do it.

Mr. PAUL. Well, one day he came in with a friend of his—he’s now
deceased.

Mr. HUBERT. If you could fix the time and place—as you go—it would be
helpful, and I know it’s a long time ago but perhaps we will have to
take an approximation.

Mr. PAUL. Maybe it was 1949 or 1950 or 1951, I can’t remember those
years, and he asked me for a loan.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what the friend’s name was? The one that he
came in with?

Mr. PAUL. He’s now deceased, but it was Marty Gimpel.

Mr. HUBERT. And the two of them came to you?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And wanted to borrow some money?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How much was it they wanted to borrow?

Mr. PAUL. $2,000.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you lend it to them?

Mr. PAUL. He said to me, “I’ve got a show, I want to buy the Bob Wills
Ranch House”—did you get this one in there any place—he said, “I’ve got
to show it,” and he says, “All I want to do is show them that I’ve got
the money and I’ll give it back to you the following day.” Well, not
that I knew the guy so much, but you know, you can’t turn people down
like that if he wants to pay me the next day, so I loaned him $2,000.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get a note?

Mr. PAUL. No; he was going to pay me back the next day. Well, the next
day didn’t come. Subsequently he roped me in for $3,700.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean—more?

Mr. PAUL. With the $2,000—$3,700 altogether.

Mr. HUBERT. Making $1,700 more?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, why don’t you just tell us in your own words just how
this relationship developed and so forth?

Mr. PAUL. It’s silly but true, and when I tell it, it’s really funny.
The next time he comes he says, “They didn’t think it enough money
to show for the place, I’ve got to show them $3,000,” so I gave him
another $1,000.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have been just a few days after?

Mr. PAUL. Yes—that’s 2 days afterwards. Instead of the next day
coming—he came 2 days and he says, “This is it positively—I’ve just got
to show them the money.” Well, he didn’t come around that Saturday,
and subsequently he came around and he said he had to use the money to
get into the business there. What do you do with a person—you’re just
stuck. You can’t do nothing until then—you can’t do nothing with them.
That went on for a couple of months, and now, listen to this: One day,
on a Friday—that’s how the other $700 is going to come in—on a Friday
he comes in and he says, “If I don’t get the money to buy beer, I’ve
got to close it down.” Well, you’ve got to think—you’re already stuck
with $3,000—that’s how the payments came when I was with him at the
Vegas Club—you understand me?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; so, you gave him another $700 on that occasion?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; but when he sold the Silver Spur at that time, he gave
me money back, because I have the note on the Silver Spur. He gave me
the note on the Silver Spur for the money, so in order to release the
note, he gave me $1,000.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, that’s a different transaction from the $3,700; is it?

Mr. PAUL. That’s from the $3,700. You see, I took a note afterwards,
when he went bankrupt—when he went with the Bob Wills Ranch House, he
gave me a note on the Silver Spur.

Mr. HUBERT. For what amount?

Mr. PAUL. For the $3,700.

Mr. HUBERT. Up to that time you didn’t have a note, but when the Ranch
House folded——

Mr. PAUL. Folded—it didn’t fold, his partner bought him out—the two of
them—he couldn’t—he didn’t get any money out of it anyway.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, he went into the Silver Spur?

Mr. PAUL. No; he was in the Silver Spur before.

Mr. HUBERT. He was in the Silver Spur already?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He was in both?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; he was in both.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you got him to give you a note to show the $3,700?

Mr. PAUL. But when he sold it, I think he sold it for $2,200, or
$2,700, but he had to pay so many people that he gave me a thousand.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when he sold the Silver Spur——

Mr. PAUL. I had to give him the note—he couldn’t sell it without the
note.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the note secured in any way?

Mr. PAUL. No; it was registered.

Mr. HUBERT. A registered note, which made it a lien against the Silver
Spur?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. So that if he was going to sell it to anybody he had
to clear the note, he had to get some sort of cancellation as to
registration and that required the note?

Mr. PAUL. I gave him the note.

Mr. HUBERT. And you gave him the note for $1,000.

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That left $2,700 still owing?

Mr. PAUL. Not exactly $2,700—he paid me in little sums like 50 or 100—I
think it left about $2,200.

Mr. HUBERT. At that time?

Mr. PAUL. At that time.

Mr. HUBERT. And, of course, you had no more note?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; but when I helped him at the club, he gave me $50 or $25
or anything he could get ahold of to give me, so that eventually the
note went down to $1,200, and that’s what it remained on that deal.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, from August 1957 to May 1958, you helped
out at the Vegas, which he was then operating?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. The Silver Spur had gone?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And then the indebtedness got reduced to about $1,200 you
think as of May 1958?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there any further story to that note, or is that money
still owing?

Mr. PAUL. That money is still owing.

Mr. HUBERT. That has never been paid?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have no note for it?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, after May 1958, what did you do?

Mr. PAUL. I bought into the Bull Pen.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was with Semos?

Mr. PAUL. No, no; that was with Bowman.

Mr. HUBERT. With Bowman?

Mr. PAUL. Bowman had a partner, and he got a notice from the building
department—what is it, VA or something like that—they wanted him—as an
examiner, so he sold out to me.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, originally you and Bowman were in as a
partnership alone, or was it a corporation when it started?

Mr. PAUL. No, no; when I bought this man out it was a stepfather
then—when I bought him out—Bowman and I were partners—50-50 partners.
Then we made it a corporation.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the year of the incorporation?

Mr. PAUL. I think it was 1960.

Mr. HUBERT. 1960, but you had operated prior to that as a 50-50
partnership with Bowman?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, you became a corporation and when did you buy out
Bowman completely so that you are now full owner?

Mr. PAUL. January 1, 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, after you left this association with Ruby in May of
1958, did you have any further business or social relationship with him?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; we were friends.

Mr. HUBERT. You had been friends actually for that time almost 10
years, hadn’t you?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; we were friends from the time he loaned the money from
me, let’s put it that way. We had to be friends.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him quite often?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How did that come about?

Mr. PAUL. Well, the nights I had off, you see, we used to work 1 day
and 1 night with my partners. If I worked nights, the next day he
worked nights, so we swung it around, so the nights I had off, either
I would go to the Vegas Club—at that time he had the Vegas Club alone,
and after that we would go out to eat.

Mr. HUBERT. Was his sister, Eva Grant, with the Vegas at that time? At
the very beginning?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When did she come in, do you know?

Mr. PAUL. When he opened up—not the Carousel, but the first one—which
one was that?

Mr. HUBERT. The Sovereign Club?

Mr. PAUL. The Sovereign Club.

Mr. HUBERT. What year was that—about?

Mr. PAUL. 1959 or 1960—I think it was 1959.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you known her before?

Mr. PAUL. Just a casual acquaintance, you know, I mean—I must have seen
her once or twice.

Mr. HUBERT. She didn’t live in Dallas?

Mr. PAUL. No; I think she was out on the road some place selling
merchandise.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any further business relations with Sam Ruby?

Mr. PAUL. No; just that ice cream place.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s all you ever had with him?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, did you ever have any financial interest in the Vegas?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t now and never have had any?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any, or have you ever had any financial
interest in the Sovereign Club?

Mr. PAUL. Actually—no—not interest at that time, but when I loaned
him money on the Sovereign Club, that was after he went out with his
partner. He and his partner couldn’t get along—Slayton.

Mr. HUBERT. That was Joe Slayton?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. They had started the Sovereign Club and they couldn’t get
along and Jack needed some money?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You loaned him some money, then, did you?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How much?

Mr. PAUL. Well, I think I loaned him for 3 months’ rent or 4 months’
rent—$550 a month, because that was the time he couldn’t pay the rent.

Mr. HUBERT. You loaned that in cash?

Mr. PAUL. No; I give him a check—not in cash.

Mr. HUBERT. You gave him a check?

Mr. PAUL. A check—I gave him a check.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any evidence of indebtedness?

Mr. PAUL. No; the following year he gave me 50 percent of the club,
telling me that if the thing don’t go, the fixtures and everything
should represent my money.

Mr. HUBERT. You had no note about it?

Mr. PAUL. No; he gave it to me—I knew about it.

Mr. HUBERT. No; but did he give you a note?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any kind of written agreement?

Mr. PAUL. It was a stock receipt.

Mr. HUBERT. That was a corporation?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he gave you a stock certificate?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how many shares it was for?

Mr. PAUL. Five hundred.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that half of the corporation?

Mr. PAUL. Half of the place.

Mr. HUBERT. And he endorsed that over to you?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, yes; I think he did—he and Slayton—I think did.

Mr. HUBERT. And what was the consideration, that is to say, what money
did you pay for that?

Mr. PAUL. To open up the Carousel——

Mr. HUBERT. No; I’m talking about the Sovereign.

Mr. PAUL. The Sovereign was no consideration—just the stock deal, that
if anything happens to the club I should get some money out of it for
the fixtures.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, as a matter of fact you had actually loaned him 4
months’ rent at $550, whatever that is?

Mr. PAUL. About $2,200.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; $2,200, so, was it considered that that loan or that
indebtedness was the consideration for the stock?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Or, was the stock merely to secure it?

Mr. PAUL. That’s the security of that money—the stock was the security
of the money.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, if he had paid the money back to you, he
was entitled to the stock?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right. In fact, he took the stock certificate one
time; he thought he would be able to sell the club.

Mr. HUBERT. I see.

Mr. PAUL. He thought he would be able to sell the club, so I give him
the stock certificates; you know—you deal with people in money, that’s
true, and you are very careful, but sometimes friendship overshadows a
lot of things.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you say there that therefore there was
a close friendship between you and Jack. Did you continue during that
time on a friendly basis; that is to say, visiting at the Vegas or
Sovereign Club?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; we were always friends.

Mr. HUBERT. You think you saw him two or three times a week during that
time?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That would be from 1958 on?

Mr. PAUL. No; prior to that I saw him a lot of times before.

Mr. HUBERT. Jack was never married, was he?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was the Sovereign located? Was it the same place as
the Carousel?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about the changeover from the
Sovereign to the Carousel?

Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes; I forced him to change that over.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; tell us about that, if you can tell us the dates
and times, as close as you can.

Mr. PAUL. And, he needed money; the Sovereign Club was dead, as far
as he was concerned. Either he closed it or—either he closes it or he
does something else with it. So, I told him to change it to a burlesque
house and I will give him $1,650 to pay more rent on the place so
he could go on, so I loaned him $1,650 more to turn it over to a
burlesque. That’s when he changed it from the Sovereign Club, a private
club, to a burlesque house, which was an open place.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, with the Sovereign Club you had to belong
to the club?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Sort of a bottle club, as required by the laws of Texas?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right; he had a bottle club.

Mr. HUBERT. If you belonged to the club, you could buy liquor in the
club, and if you didn’t you couldn’t, and it was your thought that the
thing could be a success if its nature were changed?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; well, it’s an open place.

Mr. HUBERT. It’s an open place, a burlesque house, but, of course, you
couldn’t sell hard liquor?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But it would sell beer?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. But your proposition to him was that you would advance
$1,650 in the new venture to at least pay the rent for some time?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about the incorporation of the S. &
R., Inc.?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; the S. & R. started the thing. That was the first deal;
S. & R. is Slayton and Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say “the first deal,” are you speaking of the
corporation that existed with reference to the Sovereign Club?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you aware that there was a corporation called
Sovereign, Inc., that owned the Sovereign Club?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you told me that he endorsed over as security 500
of the shares?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That was not the S. & R. shares with the stock
certificates, was it?

Mr. PAUL. The S. & R. was the Sovereign Club. The original Sovereign
Club was the S. & R., because Slayton didn’t belong to anything else
but the Sovereign Club.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me see if I can get this straight; you mentioned that
in order to start the Sovereign Club you advanced $1,650?

Mr. PAUL. No; that’s after Slayton went out.

Mr. HUBERT. After Slayton went out?

Mr. PAUL. Jack Ruby owned the whole thing then.

Mr. HUBERT. He did?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you loaned him 3 or 4 months’ rent?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In return for which he pledged to you or gave you as
security 500 shares of the stock of the corporation?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But I want to know what corporation was that; was that the
Sovereign?

Mr. PAUL. S. & R.

Mr. HUBERT. And what year would that have been in?

Mr. PAUL. In 1959 or 1960.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, apparently you were not aware that there was a
Sovereign, Inc.; a corporation called Sovereign, Inc.?

Mr. PAUL. No; all I knew was that it was the S. & R.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, when the place was changed to the Carousel, what
happened to your 500 shares?

Mr. PAUL. It’s still the same thing; Carousel is only a name. It’s
still S. & R.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you still have those shares?

Mr. PAUL. No; I gave them over to his sister.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that?

Mr. PAUL. February 14.

Mr. HUBERT. Of this year?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But you had held those shares, half of the ownership, as it
were, of the Sovereign Club originally, and subsequently the Carousel,
until recently?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you get any income from the corporation?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any kind of pay?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Of any sort; Jack never paid you any money through the
years at all?

Mr. PAUL. He never paid me a dime.

Mr. HUBERT. And I gather from that that he stands owing you now $1,200,
which was left from the original debt, about $2,200 that you loaned
him for which you got a security—500 shares of a corporation—and then
another $1,650 that you loaned him in order to open up the Carousel?

Mr. PAUL. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. A total of about $5,050, and is it your thought that he
still owes you that much money?

Mr. PAUL. Well, what am I going to do?

Mr. HUBERT. I just wanted to find out just what the picture was, as to
that. He never paid you any dividends?

Mr. PAUL. He never had any money to pay me dividends; he always used to
work from his pocket.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the Carousel very much?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir; once or twice a week.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you usually go on Saturday nights?

Mr. PAUL. Not every Saturday night; mostly Friday nights.

Mr. HUBERT. There is some evidence that on those occasions that you
went, there were some sort of payments made to you, Mr. Paul, and
that’s what I want to find out, if there were any. I don’t know what
the nature of them was; that’s why I’m asking you about it. If there
were payments on a loan or payments because of your ownership of the
Carousel.

Mr. PAUL. Not that I know of; not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your statement to me is that Jack Ruby
never paid you any money at all?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Either in the way of repaying the loan or in the way of
dividends? Or in the way of profits?

Mr. PAUL. In the first place, until the last year that he was there, he
was losing money.

Mr. HUBERT. At the Carousel?

Mr. PAUL. At the Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it make some money in the last year?

Mr. PAUL. In the last year I think it made some money, but he was
so much in the hole that he had to pay everybody else. When he was
arrested—now, mind you, when he was arrested—you wouldn’t think that an
electric company—you could owe them that much money, but there was $175
or $180 a month, and he owed them over $600.

Mr. HUBERT. The electric company?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; the electric company—Dallas Electric Lights, and the
telephone company—$153. He kept on owing everybody money.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, in any case, you didn’t get any payments of money
from him?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. For your share of what any profits might have been or
dividends or interest or repayment of loan or in any way at all; is
that correct?

Mr. PAUL. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say that you gave the 500 shares that you held up
until February 14 of this year to Eva Grant?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us why you did that?

Mr. PAUL. Well, for one reason, I couldn’t run the club; I tried to run
it, but I couldn’t run it. I lost about $3,000 in the time I run it
from the 25th of November until the 14th of February.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever find out who owned the other 500 shares?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it Jack?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know; I was never interested to know all the other
facts, because I never figured to get any money out of the place anyway.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Earl Ruby?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s Jack’s brother?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever met him prior to November 24 or November 25?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. PAUL. In Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he come here often?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I think I met him twice or three times.

Mr. HUBERT. In your whole life, until the 25th?

Mr. PAUL. Until the 25th, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any interest in the Carousel?

Mr. PAUL. I couldn’t tell you.

Mr. HUBERT. Does he claim any?

Mr. PAUL. I still don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know his brother Hyman?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; I met him one time.

Mr. HUBERT. Just one time?

Mr. PAUL. The Friday before the assassination.

Mr. HUBERT. Before the murder?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You never met him before?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What about his sister, Eileen?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know her at all?

Mr. PAUL. I never heard of her.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think he has another sister called Mrs. Anna Volpert.

Mr. PAUL. No; I don’t know her, either.

Mr. HUBERT. You never met any of the other brothers and sisters?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; Sam and his wife, and Eva and Earl, and that’s all.

Mr. HUBERT. And then Hyman?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Sam, of course, you have seen more often than any of them?

Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes; Sam—well, we were partners for about 3 or 4 months.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but you had no other business relations after that.

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, can you tell me why it was that this man owed you
this kind of money and you had the stock at least for security for
something; you gave it to Eva; what caused that to come about; did she
ask you, or did you volunteer to do that?

Mr. PAUL. No; I voluntarily gave it to her so she could sell the club.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your thought was that it wasn’t anything to
you?

Mr. PAUL. I told her, “I don’t want nothing out of it; I don’t want
nothing, I take my loss.” And I let her have it. If she could sell
it—to take the money and use it for herself, because she’s a poor widow
and she will verify everything I said—just the words.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she tell you that she had the other 500 shares?

Mr. PAUL. No; she just told me last week—she was over at my place, and
she told me she didn’t know who had the other 500 shares.

Mr. HUBERT. Has anyone asked Earl about it?

Mr. PAUL. I didn’t ask Earl about it.

Mr. HUBERT. What about Jack himself?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen Jack since he has been in jail?

Mr. PAUL. I have seen him three times since he has been in there—one
time I seen him—about 4 weeks ago—the time before I went to New York,
the week before I went to New York I was down there, the 27th, I think
it was, and I came back the 2d.

Mr. HUBERT. That was of April?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you saw him once just before that?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the first time you had seen him since he had been
in jail?

Mr. PAUL. No; I saw him twice when he first got into jail—twice I saw
him then.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there was the last time you saw him in jail
and then you saw him two other times before that?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When were those times—about?

Mr. PAUL. I think about the second week and the fourth week—I think.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss with him his business?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir—no, sir; I didn’t discuss it—I didn’t discuss
nothing—how could you discuss a man’s business when he is held for
murder?

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, I didn’t mean that you would bring up the
subject, but I was wondering if perhaps he had asked about it?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you have been unable to get from any source
Jack or Earl or Eva or Sam or anybody else where the other 500 shares
are?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And you gave your 500 you held to her—you received nothing
in return for it?

Mr. PAUL. No: what I told her to do was to pay the Government.

Mr. HUBERT. And from all you know, she doesn’t even know where the
other 500 shares are?

Mr. PAUL. No; that’s what she told me.

Mr. HUBERT. I noticed on your income tax return, too, that you had a
capital loss that you have spread over some years of $7,000; I think,
last year was about the last of it—I think you used about $1,000 a
year; is that in connection with any of this, or is that another
transaction?

Mr. PAUL. No; that’s from the Miramar and the ice cream place—that was
in 1957. The place wasn’t in existence in 1957.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of George Senator?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know about him, please, Mr. Paul?

Mr. PAUL. Well, he used to be a salesman, a dry goods salesman of men’s
apparel, let’s call it, shirts and so forth.

Mr. HUBERT. Wholesale?

Mr. PAUL. No; retail—maybe wholesale, I don’t know—he was working for
some firm on the road. Well, it’s Jack that made a friend of him you
know what I mean, coming up to the club. They got friendly and in the
last year I think he went into a novelty business with somebody—am I
right?

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the year 1963?

Mr. PAUL. I think so—some cars and little—different things, a lot of a
little truck, and then finally about—oh, maybe in July or August——

Mr. HUBERT. Of 1963?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; they pushed him out, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean his company did?

Mr. PAUL. It isn’t a company, they pushed him out because he wasn’t
selling anything, or he was using up the money or something to that
effect, and they pushed him out and he wasn’t doing nothing and he was
living with another man and they had an apartment and the other man got
married and he didn’t have no money, so Jack told him he could live
with him until he could get another job, but that’s George Senator.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known George?

Mr. PAUL. About 2 years.

Mr. HUBERT. And you think Ruby knew him about the same length of time?

Mr. PAUL. I think so—maybe a little longer.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he do any work around the Carousel?

Mr. PAUL. Who?

Mr. HUBERT. George Senator?

Mr. PAUL. I think he used to help him out on Saturday night. I don’t
know whether he paid him or not. Now, I would like to know who told you
I get money out of the Carousel? I wish I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, I can’t answer that.

Mr. PAUL. I know, but somebody must have told you I get money out of
that. You know what I used to do—I used to count the money for him at
the end of the night because he was such a flip, you know what I mean,
he used to argue with everybody that would count the money for him, and
hold it until he went downstairs, so I gave it to him.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that—that’s interesting.

Mr. PAUL. Well, if I be there on Saturday night or Friday night, at the
end of the night, he would say to me, “Clear the register.” So, I would
count the money. He says, “Let the boy from the bar give you the money
and hold it until we come downstairs and I go to the car.” And that’s
how I got the money.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you would be seen counting the money?

Mr. PAUL. Yes: that’s right—that’s why I wanted to know who told you.

Mr. HUBERT. But that’s all it amounted to, just that you had counted
the money for him?

Mr. PAUL. That’s all—I would bring it downstairs—he never carried it
with him actually—I don’t know why he carried so much money the last
time. Actually, he used to throw it in the back of the car in the trunk
and he said, “That’s the place that nobody looks.”

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you have known him to go home with money in the
sack and he never put it on his person at all?

Mr. PAUL. No—in the back of the car.

Mr. HUBERT. Even when he parked his car at night he wouldn’t take it
upstairs?

Mr. PAUL. What do you mean—no; he never took it up to the house—he left
it in the car.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have occasion to know how much money he had
around like that?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, you know, I suppose, from the newspapers
and what you have heard that when he was arrested he had altogether on
his person and in the car an so forth, something in excess——

Mr. PAUL. It was in the car too, wasn’t it?

Mr. HUBERT. Some of it, yes; but to your knowledge, most of the time he
didn’t keep it on his person at all?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the gun, did he keep that on his person?

Mr. PAUL. It’s a funny thing about the gun—he would always carry it in
a bag, in a deposit bag, a money bag.

Mr. HUBERT. A canvas bag, and——

Mr. PAUL. Unless he went some place special, because he always said
somebody might want to beat him up.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by “some place special”—like what?

Mr. PAUL. Well, like if he was going out on a date or something, you
know, I mean he wouldn’t carry the bag. I mean, if he went to a show or
something, he wouldn’t carry the bag.

Mr. HUBERT. But he took his gun?

Mr. PAUL. No; he left it in the bag. The only time he would carry the
gun—the bag was if he wasn’t going to no place or he went home—if he
went to eat, he would take it with him.

Mr. HUBERT. The gun or the bag?

Mr. PAUL. The bag with the gun.

Mr. HUBERT. From his car?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But yet he would leave it outside all night?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In the car?

Mr. PAUL. In the car.

Mr. HUBERT. But let me see if I get this straight—if he was going to
eat, he would go to his car, take the money out of the trunk——

Mr. PAUL. No; the bag.

Mr. HUBERT. The bag—with the gun only?

Mr. PAUL. The gun.

Mr. HUBERT. He would leave the money there and take the bag with the
gun, and then carried the gun in that fashion?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, many times he would be driving my car, he would leave
the bag and the money on the bottom and lock the car.

Mr. HUBERT. And the gun would be in there with the bag and the money?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But you say that there were occasions when he would take
the gun alone, leaving the money behind, but the gun not in a holster,
but in a bag?

Mr. PAUL. But in a bag—so everybody thought he was carrying money.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if he ever owned a holster?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him carry the gun in a pocket or tucked in
his waist?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I never did.

Mr. HUBERT. The only time you have ever seen him carry his gun was when
he carried it in a bag?

Mr. PAUL. In the bag.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Gruber that lives out in
California?

Mr. PAUL. Gruber?

Mr. HUBERT. Gruber [spelling] G-r-u-b-e-r.

Mr. PAUL. That name doesn’t sound familiar to me. I’ll tell you, Jack
had a million friends that I would never remember their names anyway.
He used to introduce me and the name just flew by.

Mr. HUBERT. What about this boy Larry Crafard or Curtis Laverne
Crafard, as he was called—do you know anything about him, that young
man that was around the club for the last month or so?

Mr. PAUL. I think he was cleaning up the place every day and used to
sleep there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to him?

Mr. PAUL. Jack brought up so many—no; I never did talk to him, but I
never talked to those people myself that Jack used to pick up in the
street and bring them up to work and do something, and in a couple of
weeks they disappeared.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was not a peculiar thing at all for Jack
to bring in someone?

Mr. PAUL. Take them home to sleep—a man that hasn’t got a place to
live. I used to say to Jack, “Suppose he robs you?” He says, “So, he
robs me.”

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Louis McWillie?

Mr. PAUL. McWillie? I knew him a long time ago. I think he is in—not
Vegas—what is the other place?

Mr. HUBERT. Vegas is right.

Mr. PAUL. Vegas—is he?

Mr. HUBERT. Tell me what you know about him, was he ever in Dallas?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; sure, he was in Dallas a long time.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his business when he was here?

Mr. PAUL. When he come—he used to go to golf places and bet on golf.

Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about golf tournaments and golf games?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, wasn’t he a gambler in general—all
sorts of gambling?

Mr. PAUL. I think so—I never had any dealings with him either.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of Ruby’s dealings with him?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, do you know that sometime in 1959, probably
around September or Labor Day, Jack went down to Havana, Cuba?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And stayed with McWillie?

Mr. PAUL. Well, McWillie sent him the carfare—McWillie was running the
gambling house down there for the—I don’t know what it was—Batista or
some of their people—somebody else down there.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know and how you found out about it?

Mr. PAUL. Well, Jack told me.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you?

Mr. PAUL. He told me he sent him money to come down there for a
vacation.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack supposed to work or was it just a vacation?

Mr. PAUL. Just a vacation.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any reason why, or did Jack tell you any
reason why, McWillie would be interested in financing a vacation for
Jack?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know, but I think Jack was a close friend of his.
Actually, he thought the whole world was built around McWillie.
Actually—and I never could see it, and I never used to go out with him
when McWillie was around.

Mr. HUBERT. You disliked McWillie?

Mr. PAUL. No: but I didn’t care too much for his personality.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever express yourself in that way to Ruby?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his answer?

Mr. PAUL. Well, he told me—that he thinks he is a great guy—Jack says.
Well, actually, I for one never meet too many friends with Jack, and
Jack made everybody a friend and I haven’t got too many friends. I
just work to make a living. I’m not interested in a whole lot of other
things.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, what you are saying is that Jack was a man
who made a lot of friends?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were one of his friends?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you had fewer friends than he did?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But you considered yourself one of his best friends?

Mr. PAUL. Yes—Jack’s best friend.

Mr. HUBERT. Both ways?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how long he stayed in Havana?

Mr. PAUL. A week or 10 days.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he went to Miami at that time or New
Orleans?

Mr. PAUL. I think he stopped in Miami and went from Miami to Cuba and
he came back to Miami. I think he had to do that anyway—it wasn’t a
straight flight.

Mr. HUBERT. But I take it that you are assuming that it was not—what I
wanted to get at was whether Jack had ever told you—that’s the way you
would know.

Mr. PAUL. I’m telling you that he did.

Mr. HUBERT. That he told you that he went from here to Miami?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And from Miami down to Havana?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And on the route back, he came back through Miami?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; I think that’s what he told me.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any other trips that he has taken?

Mr. PAUL. The only time when I was at the Vegas Club, he went to—what
are those Springs over there—Hot Springs—I think 2 weekends in a row.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any other travels that he might have made?

Mr. PAUL. He went to New York.

Mr. HUBERT. When?

Mr. PAUL. Last year to see the AGVA president.

Mr. HUBERT. That was in regard to the trouble he was having with the
Weinsteins?

Mr. PAUL. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that was in August, was it not?

Mr. PAUL. No; it was earlier than August, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of his trip to New Orleans last year?

Mr. PAUL. Yes—he went to—somebody told him about this strip down there.

Mr. HUBERT. Bourbon Street?

Mr. PAUL. Bourbon Street and he went down to catch her act.

Mr. HUBERT. He went for what purpose?

Mr. PAUL. To catch her act—to catch the girl’s act, so he could book
her.

Mr. HUBERT. He wanted to look at the girl’s act to see if he could get
any talent to come up here?

Mr. PAUL. The reason why—she asked for a lot of money.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is that?

Mr. PAUL. Oh, what is her name——

Mr. HUBERT. Jada?

Mr. PAUL. Jada.

Mr. HUBERT. He went down to Bourbon Street to see if he could get any
striptease acts?

Mr. PAUL. That was the one he was sent to look at.

Mr. HUBERT. He was especially sent for Jada?

Mr. PAUL. This Earl Norman—the M.C.—was down there.

Mr. HUBERT. Earl Norman?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; and he saw her and he asked Jack to go down and see and
get her, that she was going to bring him a lot of business.

Mr. HUBERT. And you knew this because Jack kept you in touch with the
things he was doing and he made a contract with Jada, did he?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; she worked at the club quite a while.

Mr. HUBERT. She brought in some money, as I understand?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; and no. At first she was doing all right, and then she
fell off to nothing.

Mr. HUBERT. She quit, I think, before her contract was over?

Mr. PAUL. Actually, it was a verbal contract—the last. You see, they
had a contract to start with and then it became a verbal contract—she
works as long as she wants to—as long as he wants to keep her.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the first contract was a written contract
but of limited time, and when it ran out it was on a weekly basis?

Mr. PAUL. On a weekly basis.

Mr. HUBERT. During last fall, say from the time Jack came back from New
York until November, do you think you saw him two or three times a week
then? Or spoke to him?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you are in a position to say whether or not
he left town during any of those times during the period after he came
back from New York—say, September, October, and November?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I don’t quite understand your answer—are you in a
position to say?

Mr. PAUL. He didn’t leave town.

Mr. HUBERT. In your opinion?

Mr. PAUL. The only place I know he went is New Orleans and New York,
last year.

Mr. HUBERT. And in your opinion if he had gone anyplace else, you would
have known it?

Mr. PAUL. I would have known it. In fact, I was the only one that knew
he went to New York, but when he went to New Orleans everybody knew
because that was another thing—that was no secret.

Mr. HUBERT. And you are basing your opinion on the knowledge of his
movements by the fact that you were in contact with him both in person
and by telephone several times a week all through this period?

Mr. PAUL. Almost every day.

Mr. HUBERT. You would telephone one another?

Mr. PAUL. What?

Mr. HUBERT. You would telephone one another or see one another?

Mr. PAUL. Yes—telephone mostly. In the last year, I think I used to go
to the club twice a week, Tuesday and Friday, because all the other
nights I was working.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, those were your nights off?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you went almost 100 percent of the time that you had
nights off, Tuesday and Friday, you went to the Carousel and you would
stay there all evening?

Mr. PAUL. Well, I wouldn’t come until late anyway.

Mr. HUBERT. You would come late and stay until it closed?

Mr. PAUL. And then go for coffee or something to eat.

Mr. HUBERT. And in other than those days you would get in touch by
telephone?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose—just friendship?

Mr. PAUL. That’s all—and, he had trouble with the Weinsteins and he
always asked for advice. That’s why he used to call me all the time.

Mr. HUBERT. The telephone records, as you know, show quite a number of
calls between you.

Mr. PAUL. They don’t?

Mr. HUBERT. They do, and I was wondering just what those calls were
about.

Mr. PAUL. Well, every day he would find something else he would like to
do—he would think of doing, or the union didn’t do right by him, the
AGVA, or the girls didn’t do right—that’s why he called me almost every
day.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he would call you if he had trouble with the
girls?

Mr. PAUL. If he had trouble with any of the girls, he would call me.

Mr. HUBERT. If he had trouble with the one—with the Weinsteins, he
would call you?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; and the AGVA people—you see, they’ve got a board of
directors and each one takes a part, and if this one doesn’t do
right—that was almost consistently—he called on that.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear that the President had been shot?

Mr. PAUL. On Friday—I was working. It was the lunch hour, you know, and
lunch hour is our busiest hour. I’m always there on the lunch hour, and
my landlord’s son called me on the telephone and told me the President
was shot—they got it on the radio, and so I turned on the radio and
then we all listened, everybody in the place naturally, because there
was some excitement—people hollered and cried all over the place, and
then everybody was listening to the radio to see what the result would
be, and at 2 o’clock I went home, or a little after 2—generally I
stayed until 2 o’clock on Friday. A little after 2—and when I got home
Jack called me and he said, “Did you hear what happened?” I said, “Yes;
I heard it on the air.” He says, “Isn’t that a terrible thing?” I said,
“Yes; Jack.” He said, “I made up my mind. I’m going to close it down.”
I said, “Well, I can’t close down, I’ve got an eating place.”

Mr. HUBERT. And did he suggest to you that you should close down your
place?

Mr. PAUL. That’s what he said, “Ain’t you going to close?” I said, “No;
I’ve got an eating place.” I says, “You can do whatever you want.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did he discuss with you whether he should close down?

Mr. PAUL. No; he didn’t discuss it. He told me he was going to close
down.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you for how long?

Mr. PAUL. Three days.

Mr. HUBERT. That was at 2 o’clock?

Mr. PAUL. Friday at 2—Friday night and Saturday night and Sunday night.

Mr. HUBERT. He was going to close up?

Mr. PAUL. Friday night and Saturday and Sunday nights.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you why he had chosen those 3 nights?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; in honor of the President being shot—he was heartbroken.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, why 3 nights instead of 2 or 4?

Mr. PAUL. That’s what I told him. I said to him, “Are the other clubs
going to close?” He said, “I don’t care about the other clubs.”

Mr. HUBERT. Where was he calling you from, do you know?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know—he didn’t say where he was calling me from. He
generally called me from a telephone booth or the club—not so much from
his home.

Mr. HUBERT. What would seem to be his condition when you were talking
to him, emotionally and otherwise?

Mr. PAUL. Very bad emotionally—he said, “I can’t believe it.”

Mr. HUBERT. What was it based upon, do you know?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know—if you don’t see the person, you can’t tell the
person on a telephone how he reacts or——

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, you have known him for a good many years.

Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes; I’ve known Jack for so many years and he has always
been that way, you know, reaction—fast—punch line—got to do this right
away [indicating]. With him it wasn’t—he thought and did. It wasn’t a
second thought.

Mr. HUBERT. But you are quite clear that when he called you about 2
o’clock——

Mr. PAUL. That’s about a little after the time I got home—was a quarter
to 3.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s the first time you had heard from him?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. The President was already dead?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was known he was dead?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything about Tippit?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I didn’t know nothing about Tippit. I didn’t know
nothing about Tippit.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t tell you?

Mr. PAUL. No; he didn’t tell me anything about Tippit.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, he said he had made up his mind he was going
to close up the club for 3 days already?

Mr. PAUL. Yes

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t ask you—he told you?

Mr. PAUL. No; he told me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention he thought that the death of the President
would hurt business in the Dallas area and therefore hurt his business?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. He did not?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did that conversation last—about?

Mr. PAUL. Three or 4 minutes—he says, “It’s a terrible, terrible
thing.” Then, when I got back to the place in the evening he called me.

Mr. HUBERT. That was about what time?

Mr. PAUL. Well, I came back at 5 and I think he called me at 6.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he was then?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir; he says, “It’s such a terrible thing that I’m going
to go to synagogue.” He says, “Do you want to come along?” I says,
“No; I don’t go to the synagogue, I’m not going to make a fool out of
myself.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did he go to the synagogue?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he go often?

Mr. PAUL. For a year he went every—should I say—every day.

Mr. HUBERT. That was after his father’s death?

Mr. PAUL. That was after his father died—yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s part of the Jewish religion that you should do that?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; that’s true.

Mr. HUBERT. And he followed that?

Mr. PAUL. He followed that very closely.

Mr. HUBERT. After that, did he go very much?

Mr. PAUL. No; once in a while on holidays—he made it a habit of going
on holidays to the synagogue.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the Jewish holidays?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t go every week?

Mr. PAUL. No—no.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a surprise to you that he would be going to the
synagogue?

Mr. PAUL. To tell you the truth, I didn’t—anything Jack does is no
surprise to me.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m sorry (addressing the reporter) I didn’t get that, did
you get that?

The REPORTER. “To tell you the truth, anything Jack does is no surprise
to me.”

Mr. HUBERT. But it was not his normal custom?

Mr. PAUL. No; but he says he’s going to pray because a thing like that
happened.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, that, you think, was about what time?

Mr. PAUL. About 6 o’clock in the evening.

Mr. HUBERT. And that conversation was just a matter of a few minutes,
too?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you hear from him next?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know whether it was that night again, after he
got out of synagogue—I can’t recall. But, he didn’t call me again—I
know—until Saturday night, or until Saturday afternoon, and he said,
“Did you see my ad in the paper?” I says, “What paper?” Well, Saturday
is a pretty bad paper, and I said, “What paper?” He says, “In the Times
Herald and the News.” I said, “What did you put?” He said, “That
I’m closing down for 3 days.” I said, “That’s what you said to me
yesterday.” He said, “But, it’s in the paper.” I said, “All right, I
believe you.”

Mr. HUBERT. You think that was Saturday afternoon?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You had not spoken to him or seen him since the night
before?

Mr. PAUL. No—I didn’t see him—no; when I saw him was Thursday night.

Mr. HUBERT. You were at the club then?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; then he called me Saturday when I got home.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?

Mr. PAUL. Well, I didn’t feel too good that night, and I left home—I
generally work until 1 o’clock in the morning. I left at 11 o’clock
and he said he called the place and they told him I went home and they
told him I didn’t feel well, and he says, “What’s wrong with you?” And
I says, “I’ve got a cold,” and then he told me that he was downtown and
that nobody was doing any business, so I says to him, “Well, if nobody
is doing any business, I guess you had better close.”

Mr. HUBERT. And what did he say to that?

Mr. PAUL. Then he called me back one more time—I didn’t give you this
before because I didn’t—then he called me back one more time and told
me that he was over at his sister’s house, Eva’s house, and Eva was
crying and they are both crying.

Mr. HUBERT. This was Saturday night?

Mr. PAUL. This was Saturday night—that was late. I said, “Jack, I don’t
feel good. Let me go to sleep.”

Mr. HUBERT. How long after the first call on Saturday night did the
second call come?

Mr. PAUL. The first call come, I think, was 9:30 or 10 o’clock, and the
second call I think was about 11:30.

Mr. HUBERT. You had left at what time?

Mr. PAUL. I left the place about 9 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Because of your feeling ill?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he reached you shortly after you got there?

Mr. PAUL. No, it was about an hour or so later.

Mr. HUBERT. You were in bed already?

Mr. PAUL. I was in bed already—that was the last time I spoke to him, I
says, “Jack, let me go to sleep because I don’t feel well.”

Mr. HUBERT. That was on the second call?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So, the second call was at what time?

Mr. PAUL. About 11 or 11:30.

Mr. HUBERT. The first call was about 9:30?

Mr. PAUL. No; about 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. About 10:30, and the second call about an hour after?

Mr. PAUL. No; I left the place, but it just takes me about 15 or 20
minutes to get home, and I doctored myself up with some hot tea and so
forth—it must have taken about another half hour, so it must have been
about 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on the first call—he had called your place
and found out you were not feeling well?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; he called me and I told him I wasn’t feeling well and he
told me that nobody downtown was doing any business.

Mr. HUBERT. And then you told him he ought to be glad he stopped,
because if nobody was doing any business he might as well be closed,
and that was about the subject of that conversation?

Mr. PAUL. That’s—that was that conversation. That’s the subject, and
then he called me back and he told me he was over at his sister’s house
and his sister was crying and he was crying with her on account of the
President, and that’s the last I spoke to him.

Mr. HUBERT. You could hear her crying or he told you?

Mr. PAUL. He just told me.

Mr. HUBERT. What about his own crying, could you tell that he was
crying, did he seem to be crying?

Mr. PAUL. No; he wasn’t crying then when he spoke to me.

Mr. HUBERT. He wasn’t crying then—in other words, what he was telling
you was that he and his sister had been crying?

Mr. PAUL. Had been crying.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that all he wanted to tell you?

Mr. PAUL. That’s all.

Mr. HUBERT. And you in effect told him you were sick and not to bother
you any more, would that be about it?

Mr. PAUL. And I went to sleep and that’s the last I talked to him.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, when was your next contact with Jack?

Mr. PAUL. When he was in jail.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you hear about the Oswald matter?

Mr. PAUL. Sunday morning—I was—I had just finished making out the
payroll.

Mr. HUBERT. At the Bull Pen?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; when John Jackson, my manager, called and the girl
answered the phone and she says—he says, “Oswald is shot.”

Mr. HUBERT. He said that to you?

Mr. PAUL. To the girl, and the girl relayed it to me. Just, “Oswald was
shot,” so I looked up and I says, “So what?” I mean—just the regular
coincidence. “So what?” 5 minutes later a fellow that lived around the
corner that knew me—he used to work at the Sky Club years ago, named
Howard something, came in and says, “Jack Ruby shot Oswald.”

Mr. HUBERT. That was in the Bull Pen at Arlington?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was that man’s name?

Mr. PAUL. Howard something.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s his first name?

Mr. PAUL. Howard is his first name—I can’t think of the second
name—he’s just a customer there—he used to work a long time ago at the
Sky Club—I think he was—he used to be their cabinet man there, so I
says, “Go away.” I says, “Wait, I’ll call the house.” So, I called the
house and nobody answered.

Mr. HUBERT. You called Jack’s house?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; I called Jack’s house and nobody answered, so Jackson
and his wife came in and said, “Yes, we just saw it on TV that Jack
Ruby shot Oswald.” So, I says, “All right”—that’s when I called Tom
Howard.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time was it you called Howard, do you know?

Mr. PAUL. I would say it was about in between 11:30 and 12 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, between 10 minutes or 15 minutes after the
shooting, to 30 to 40 minutes after the shooting?

Mr. PAUL. Well, you know—shooting—we didn’t think he killed him.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I understand.

Mr. PAUL. So, I says, “Tom,” well Tom has been my lawyer for the
longest time.

Mr. HUBERT. He has been your lawyer?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; and Jack’s too.

Mr. HUBERT. Jack’s too?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; and I says, “Tom, see what you could do for Jack. I
heard he shot Oswald.” He says, “Okay,” and that’s it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that he was not aware that Oswald
had been shot?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know whether he did or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you when you talked to him that he was
not aware that Ruby had shot him?

Mr. PAUL. No; I just told him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be surprised?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything to indicate he knew about it?

Mr. PAUL. No; he didn’t. He says, “Okay, I’ll take care of it.” Those
are the words he said.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you asked him to see what he could do and
without indicating whether he knew about it or not, as far as you could
tell, he says, “I’ll see what I can do.” And that was the end of the
conversation?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any appointment to meet him yourself?

Mr. PAUL. Who—Tom?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. PAUL. No; I went down to his office anyway.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you were at the Bull Pen at that conversation and you
went where?

Mr. PAUL. Downtown.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go?

Mr. PAUL. I went to the—John and I and the girl went down to the police
station and I saw Tom Howard there.

Mr. HUBERT. Inside the station?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Whereabouts was it, do you know?

Mr. PAUL. It was right off the entrance to the—as you walk in—do you
know where the entrance is when you walk in?

Mr. HUBERT. From Harwood Street?

Mr. PAUL. What?

Mr. HUBERT. On Harwood Street?

Mr. PAUL. No; it’s on Commerce.

Mr. HUBERT. Not the basement ramp?

Mr. PAUL. The basement ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. You went through the basement ramp?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was that, about?

Mr. PAUL. Maybe 1 o’clock, and so we meet him, and he says, “They won’t
let you see him anyway, you had better go over and stay at the office.
I think it’s on television.” So we walked over to his office and we
watched television until about 3 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. That was Jackson and you and Howard?

Mr. PAUL. No; not Howard—a girl Tammi True.

Mr. HUBERT. Tammi True and you went to Howard’s office?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And Howard was there?

Mr. PAUL. No; I was in the courthouse—he sent us over there.

Mr. HUBERT. Howard sent you to his office to watch television?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; to watch television.

Mr. HUBERT. And he went where, do you know?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what he did?

Mr. PAUL. No; he—some more lawyers they all got together and then they
left again and they came back again and riding into town, that’s when
we heard that Oswald was dead—died.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got to Howard’s office, you knew he had died?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Howard tell you he had tried to get a writ of habeas
corpus for Ruby?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And what happened to that proceeding, do you know?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. So you stayed there, you said, until about when?

Mr. PAUL. 3 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is Tammi True?

Mr. PAUL. That’s one of the girls that worked at the club before—she
was an entertainer.

Mr. HUBERT. Was she at the Bull Pen?

Mr. PAUL. No; she lives in Fort Worth.

Mr. HUBERT. How did she come to be riding with you and Jackson?

Mr. PAUL. She came up to the Bull Pen when she heard about Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you drive in her car?

Mr. PAUL. No; in Jackson’s car.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when she heard it at her home in Fort
Worth, she came to your place and the three of you came downtown and
stayed until 3 o’clock?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened?

Mr. PAUL. I went back—went back home.

Mr. HUBERT. The three of you?

Mr. PAUL. No; I went as far as—we took Tammi back and then I let
Jackson off and I went back to Dallas and went to the movies.

Mr. HUBERT. You took Tammi back to Fort Worth?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And then came back to Arlington?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And left off Jackson?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; and I went back to the movies, because when I came in,
I says, “Anybody looking for me,” to the cashier, and she says, “A
reporter and a photographer was calling you.”

Mr. HUBERT. That was at the Bull Pen?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you drove in your car alone and you went to the movies
and I think you said you went to the Majestic?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get there?

Mr. PAUL. I got there about 4:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you park your car some place?

Mr. PAUL. I parked it on the lot. You see, Sunday, you don’t have to
have no parking.

Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed in the Majestic and watched the show?

Mr. PAUL. I stayed there about an hour—I wasn’t interested too much in
the show, I just wanted to get away from everything.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come out of the show?

Mr. PAUL. It must have been about, oh, 6 something—I went back and I
went to Jackson’s house.

Mr. HUBERT. You went into the show about what time—4:30, you think?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there until about 6, when you came out,
about an hour and a half?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, what did you do?

Mr. PAUL. I went back and went over to Jackson’s house.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s on what street and where?

Mr. PAUL. That’s where I’m living now—Browning Street.

Mr. HUBERT. And you went to his house—go ahead?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; and stayed there about an hour or so.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was there with you?

Mr. PAUL. The girls.

Mr. HUBERT. What girls?

Mr. PAUL. Jackson’s girls.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean his daughters?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; two girls; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was just the three of you?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; they made me something to eat.

Mr. HUBERT. And you got there about what time?

Mr. PAUL. Then, I called the place and Jackson told me that the FBI was
looking for me and I kept on wondering what they wanted with me, and so
we stayed over there, and then his sister had had a little gathering
over at her house.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean Eva?

Mr. PAUL. No; Jackson’s sister, so we went over there.

Mr. HUBERT. Her name is Mrs. Gable?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; we had some ice cream and John walked in with the two
FBI men; that was 9 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mrs. Bowman?

Mr. PAUL. Mrs. Bowman?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. PAUL. Sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is she?

Mr. PAUL. She’s my ex-partner’s wife.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you living with her at that time?

Mr. PAUL. We were living together in a big house.

Mr. HUBERT. On that date?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; that’s way out in the country.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see her that day?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Not at all?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t think I did—I might have seen her when I left the
house.

Mr. HUBERT. And what time would that have been?

Mr. PAUL. Oh, in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t see her after Oswald was shot?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t think so—I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go back to the house after Oswald was shot?

Mr. PAUL. I think I went from the movies to the house and changed
clothes—that’s what I think I did, and then went over to Jackson’s
house.

Mr. HUBERT. When was it that you decided to take over the operation of
the club?

Mr. PAUL. That Monday after the shooting.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack ask you to do so?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I didn’t see Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Eva ask you to do so?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, why did you do it?

Mr. PAUL. Personally, I don’t know—I just did it on the spur of the
moment, and I have been sorry every day after that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask Jack, or send word to him that you were going
to do this?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask—well, weren’t you interested in salvaging some
of the debt that was owed to you if you could?

Mr. PAUL. If I could.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I meant—that was why you did it?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; but I saw what I was getting into—it turned out to be a
lemon.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, it turned out, as you say, to be a lemon, but your
motive was to see if you could operate it to see if anything could be
made out of it, to see if you could recover some of the debt that was
owed to you?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. And at the same time, I suppose, if you could make the
thing a success—whatever Jack’s interest was, it would be helpful to
him, too?

Is that a fair statement of what was running in your mind?

Mr. PAUL. Well, naturally—I mean——

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t want to put words in your mouth—if it’s not so,
tell me.

Mr. PAUL. Actually, it was on the spur of the moment that I did it, and
I learned right away it cost me money.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Eva object?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did any of his brothers or sisters object?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And you actually operated it for approximately 2½ months?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And then why did you close it?

Mr. PAUL. Well, maybe I would still be operating it—no, I wasn’t going
to operate it any more. I told Eva, “I’m going to give you the stock,”
and let her do whatever she wanted to with it, because I couldn’t
do it any more. The second thing is, I had a broken foot—I couldn’t
make it any more over there. I was only coming up once a week, and the
thing was shot, and then on the same day I decided to that, the liquor
control board closed it up. They didn’t close it up, they sent me a
notice that I can’t sell beer, so I might as well close it up.

Mr. HUBERT. And it hasn’t been opened since then?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You paid the rent and all the bills during that time?

Mr. PAUL. When I was operating it?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you came out a deficit of about $3,000?

Mr. PAUL. At least—maybe more—I paid the Government $1,770.

Mr. HUBERT. What was that for?

Mr. PAUL. Back taxes.

Mr. HUBERT. Excise taxes?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; it was for September, November, October, December.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that excise tax?

Mr. PAUL. Excise tax—that’s the cabaret tax, they call it.

Mr. HUBERT. It doesn’t have anything to do with the social security or
withholding taxes?

Mr. PAUL. I paid them some of that too—there was only one person that
was getting paid—all the entertainers got their own—they don’t go under
social security.

Mr. HUBERT. They are self-employed?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a woman by the name of Bertha Cheek?

Mr. PAUL. What is her name?

Mr. HUBERT. Bertha Cheek.

Mr. PAUL. It doesn’t even ring a bell.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby ever tell you that just towards the end, in a week
or two prior to the death of Oswald, that he was trying to borrow some
money from her, and get her interested in opening a new cabaret?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Or doing something to the Carousel?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir; that name don’t even ring a bell to me.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know her at all and he never mentioned her?

Mr. PAUL. Never.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor did he mention that he was trying to raise any money?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I think perhaps you would be in as good a position as
anybody else to tell us some things about Jack’s personal life. As you
may know, there have been some rumors at least, that maybe Jack was a
homosexual?

Mr. PAUL. Oh, no—there was rumors?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, you have heard the rumors?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. We would like your opinion on that subject.

Mr. PAUL. Oh, no—no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You knew the man a long time?

Mr. PAUL. A long time.

Mr. HUBERT. It is your opinion he was not a homosexual?

Mr. PAUL. Positively.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his relationship with women generally; do you know?

Mr. PAUL. Well, he liked women.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have affairs with them?

Mr. PAUL. Yes—just different times, different women all the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he ever particularly attached to one?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?

Mr. PAUL. Let me remember that name again—mention some names, I can’t
think of the name.

Mr. HUBERT. Alice Nichols?

Mr. PAUL. Alice Nichols—yes, I think they were going around together
for about 10 or 11 years. I used to go out with them too.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his relationship to the girls who used to work in
his place, was it strictly a business relationship?

Mr. PAUL. With the girls—strictly business. He would like to make a
girl that would come up there, but not the girls that was working for
him.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he wouldn’t try to date the strippers or
waitresses?

Mr. PAUL. No—we used to take them out for coffee after they got
through, but that’s all.

Mr. HUBERT. I would like to show you a picture, or rather several
pictures which have already been identified, and I’m not going to give
them a new identification number. I’m going to show you a group of
five pictures, exact copies of which have already been identified in
connection with the deposition of Andrew Armstrong, as Exhibits 5300 A
through F and ask you if it is not so that Jack Ruby appears in each
one of those pictures?

Mr. PAUL. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, there are two girls in there?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. One has blonde hair and is wearing dark clothes and the
other is—has darker hair and is wearing a striped dress.

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us who they are, referring first to the one
with the blonde hair with the black dress?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, that’s Kathy Kay.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is the other one?

Mr. PAUL. This is Alice—somebody—I don’t know the second name anyway.

Mr. HUBERT. Alice Anderson?

Mr. PAUL. Yes—I never knew her second name. She worked there.

Mr. HUBERT. When did she work there?

Mr. PAUL. Alice was a waitress or a champagne girl, what you call them,
and she was the strip.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, Kathy Kay was a strip?

Mr. PAUL. Kathy Kay was a strip.

Mr. HUBERT. How long had the girl that you identify as Alice, to wit,
the girl in those pictures with the striped dress, how long had she
been working at the club?

Mr. PAUL. Well, from the time he made a burlesque out of it, she used
to work a couple of weeks, a couple of months, then quit and come back
and work another couple of months or couple of weeks and then quit. She
was never a steady girl.

Mr. HUBERT. Is she married?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he date her?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you positive or is it that you just don’t know?

Mr. PAUL. That I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. But I take it from the way you answered the question that
you knew him so well that you probably would have known it if he had?

Mr. PAUL. Yes—if he did I would have known.

Mr. HUBERT. He would tell you that?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He told you about his affairs with women, is that right?

Mr. PAUL. No; not always—he told me about affairs he wanted to tell me
about, let’s put it that way.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there lots of them?

Mr. PAUL. Well, there were quite a few.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of a girl by the name of Joyce McDonald?

Mr. PAUL. Joyce?

Mr. HUBERT. I think her stage name was Joy Dale?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize her in the photo I am now showing you?

Mr. PAUL. Oh, I recognize her.

Mr. HUBERT. This photograph has been identified in connection with the
deposition of Andrew Armstrong, as Exhibit 5301 A through E, and there
are five pictures here showing a man and two girls—Jack Ruby is the
man, of course; is that right?

Mr. PAUL. I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. And the girl on your right, as you look at the picture?

Mr. PAUL. I’m not seeing it.

Mr. HUBERT. I would like for you to identify both girls, but do so in
such a way that the record can show it—in other words, when you say,
“this” it won’t show up on the record, but when you say “this” you must
say the girl on the left-hand side of the picture as you are looking at
it—is that who you mean?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; that’s Dale.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the girl called Joyce Day?

Mr. PAUL. Joy Dale.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s the one on the right-hand side of the picture?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; the one on the right-hand side is—what do you call her
again—that little girl up that went to court?

Mr. HUBERT. Little Lynn?

Mr. PAUL. Little Lynn.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s Karen Bennett, did you know her as that?

Mr. PAUL. No; I never knew her as that, all I knew her was Little Lynn.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what the relationship between this Dale girl
and Jack Ruby was that you have identified in Exhibit 5301 A through E,
the deposition of Andrew Armstrong?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know what Andrew knew, but I know nothing about her.
I know she worked there—she was a stripper.

Mr. HUBERT. So far as you know, was there any romantic relationship or
sex relationship?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know. I wouldn’t say “yes” and I wouldn’t say “no.”

Mr. HUBERT. You just don’t know?

Mr. PAUL. Anything I don’t know—I can’t say I know.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s absolutely correct. I am simply asking you because
you have been a friend a long time and as you said a moment ago, he
told you some of the things that he wanted you to know?

Mr. PAUL. Well; I don’t think he wanted me to know about any of the
girls that worked in the club, even if he did have affairs with
them—that would be—I probably would say something to him, but on the
outside, I know a lot of girls that he had affairs with.

Mr. HUBERT. I’m now going to show you a picture which has been
identified as one of the pictures in Exhibit 5303 A through M
deposition on Andrew Armstrong, a picture which shows a girl in a
bikini suit, a blond girl. There seems to be two sailors in the picture
and on the right-hand side of the picture as you look at it, there is
a rather large man in a white shirt with his left elbow leaning on the
stage, and I ask you if you know who the girl is, do you recognize her?

Mr. PAUL. That’s the same Kathy Kay.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s Kathy Kay?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is the man, the fat man, that I have referred to with
the white shirt, the very heavy man?

Mr. PAUL. This one over here?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him there?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You never did?

Mr. PAUL. No—there isn’t a familiar face in there. What is he supposed
to be? No answers [laughing].

Mr. HUBERT. I will show you now two pictures that have been previously
identified as Exhibit 5304 A and B in connection with the deposition
of Andrew Armstrong, the first one showing a girl serving a man who is
seated, and there is apparently a boy in the background, and I ask you
if you can identify that place, first of all, is that the Carousel?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize the place at all?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the girl is who is in the stripper suit?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the man is, sitting down at the table?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who that bartender is standing at the back?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Mickey Ryan?

Mr. PAUL. No—I might have heard the name but I never knew a guy with a
name like that.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recognize the man at the bar?

Mr. PAUL. No—it’s not in the Carousel, that’s for sure. The Carousel
had no cloths on the tables.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor did it have a bar?

Mr. PAUL. It had a bar.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, not for liquor.

Mr. PAUL. No; that’s right—that looks like a private club.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you familiar with the notebooks and memo books that
Ruby kept?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see them at all?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that one of the girls in the club had a boy friend
named Tommy, do you know who that was—Tommy?

Mr. PAUL. The only real boy friends that I can give you the name of and
she got married to the boy recently.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?

Mr. PAUL. He was in the police department, but I can’t think of his
name. He made her give up the business and they got married and went to
California, but you know, talking about boy friends, those girls have
boy friends all the time—they are different boy friends—you never know
which one is which. I can’t remember one name from another.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, here’s what I wanted to get at—after you took over
the club, you apparently hired someone to collect the cover charge at
the front?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He was a gray-haired man, I’m told?

Mr. PAUL. No, it was Leo Torti.

Mr. HUBERT. [Spelling] T-o-r-t-i?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have a gray-haired man there?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you get him, had he been there before?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He had worked there before?

Mr. PAUL. Well, he didn’t actually work, he used to help Eva, and when
Eva closed that place down he came to help there, but he never got paid
for anything—just, I took him home and I took him out for a bite to eat.

Mr. HUBERT. How old a man would he have been?

Mr. PAUL. Forty or forty something—he isn’t gray. I’m the only gray man
that was there.

Mr. HUBERT. There was no gray man who was on the door collecting?

Mr. PAUL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Eva close up the Vegas?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, she closed it up and then she sold it.

Mr. HUBERT. When—before the Carousel was closed up?

Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes, she closed it up right after New Year’s.

Mr. HUBERT. Right after Ruby was put in jail?

Mr. PAUL. No, right after New Year’s.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean she sold it?

Mr. PAUL. She sold it.

Mr. HUBERT. Whom did she sell it to?

Mr. PAUL. She sold it to two men and a woman that formed a corporation
and bought it. It’s still called the Vegas Club—they’ve got it in the
paper “under new management—Vegas Club.” I don’t even know who they are.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I handed you at the beginning of the deposition, or
even before the deposition began, a number of sheets of paper, the
first group numbering nine pages, purporting to be a report of an
interview of you by the FBI agents Lish [spelling] L-i-s-h and Barratt
[spelling] B-a-r-r-a-t-t, relating to an interview with you on November
24, 1963, running, as I said, for nine pages.

For the purpose of identification, I am marking the first page as
follows: “Dallas, Texas, April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5319, Deposition of
Ralph Paul,” and I am putting my name on the first page, and also
writing my initials on the lower right-hand corner of every one of the
other pages.

Now, I ask you if you have had an opportunity to read that document,
now identified as Exhibit 5319?

Mr. PAUL. What do you mean?

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had a chance to read it?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Does it represent the truth as far as you know?

Mr. PAUL. As far as I know.

Mr. HUBERT. Are there any corrections you want to make or errors you
want to correct in it?

Mr. PAUL. Well, you asked me the same thing——

Mr. HUBERT. By referring specifically to Exhibit 5319, you see, is
there anything in Exhibit 5319 that is not the truth as far as you
know, in this document here?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, that’s why I asked you to read it, so you could tell
me whether there is anything you want to change in there and you may
take your time with it—I don’t want to rush you at all.

Mr. PAUL. This page alone, or the whole thing?

Mr. HUBERT. The whole thing.

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know what I could change.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you read it?

Mr. PAUL. I think I did—in what respect are you asking me that?

Mr. HUBERT. I just want to know if everything in there is correct, and
to give you the opportunity of changing anything in there that is not
correct.

Mr. PAUL. Well, I told you the same thing that you asked me—that’s all
here—I can’t change it in any way.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you can if it is not the truth, because all we want
is the truth.

Mr. PAUL. That’s what I told you—the truth.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you willing to state, then, that the facts
related, the statements made in the documents, consisting of nine pages
which I have now identified as Exhibit 5319, are correct?

Mr. PAUL. As far as I can recall they are correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have anything to add that document that you think of
right now?

Mr. PAUL. As far as I could tell, when they asked me those questions, I
told them that was that.

Mr. HUBERT. And this seems to be a true and fair report of the
interview with you?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything you want to delete from that because it
is wrong?

Mr. PAUL. How is it wrong?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, if it is not wrong, I would take it you would not
want to delete it. That’s what I’m trying to do—is to ask you if there
is anything in there that’s incorrect, because what we are seeking to
get is the truth.

Mr. PAUL. You think this is wrong?

Mr. HUBERT. No, sir; I didn’t suggest it was wrong. I want to ask
you—since you have had an opportunity to read it——

Mr. PAUL. Everything I told them at the time was the right thing—I told
them.

Mr. HUBERT. And that seems to be a fair and honest report of the
interview you had with them?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, that’s all I wanted to know about that.

Now, there is another document which purports to be an interview with
you by FBI Agent Clements.

Mr. PAUL. On the telephone.

Mr. HUBERT. On November 28, 1963?

Mr. PAUL. Yes, over the telephone.

Mr. HUBERT. Which I am marking for purposes of identification as
follows: “Dallas, Texas, April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5320, Deposition of
Ralph Paul,” and I am signing my name on that document. That document
contains only one page and it refers——

Mr. PAUL. To the stock deal.

Mr. HUBERT. To some stock deal.

Mr. PAUL. Let me see it just a minute.

Mr. HUBERT. This document relates to some conversation with Special
Agent Clements, which was had with you, and it is a report of it. Now,
will you tell me—I think that that conversation was over the phone?

Mr. PAUL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t believe the document so indicates, but if that
is one thing we have learned from this is that that was over the
phone—does it fairly state the content of the conversation you had with
the agent?

Mr. PAUL. Yes; he asked me what was my interest in the club and I told
him I got a certificate of 50 shares, which I received from Jack Ruby
because he wanted to protect the money I loaned him, that if anything
goes wrong—well, he didn’t put it in so many words—he put it in a
different—collateral—you know what that means—and he said, “Is that
what you mean?” And I said, “I guess that’s what it is supposed to be.”

I told him that Jack Ruby and Slayton formed the Sovereign Club and it
was called the S. and R., Incorporated. I never knew anything about the
Sovereign Club, Incorporated, that it was then terminated and became
the Carousel Club, which he gave it a name.

Now, I don’t know whether the Carousel Club was incorporated, and I
said, “I think it is Earl, Ruby’s brother, that had the 500 other
shares,” but I didn’t know for sure, that’s what I told him. He said
he believes Earl, Ruby’s brother. I was confused with the question of
whether I owned stock or not, which I was. I thought it was merely—he
gives me the stock because, like I told you, when he wanted to sell the
place he asked me for the stock so he could sell the place.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, at the time you spoke to him, in fact you were
confused as to what the situation was?

Mr. PAUL. I sure was.

Mr. HUBERT. What I’m asking you, is—is this a fair statement of what
you told him?

Mr. PAUL. I think I gave him a fair statement right up to the
minute—not that statement—that statement isn’t up to the minute, but up
to the time.

Mr. HUBERT. But at the time—it was accurate?

Mr. PAUL. At the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been interviewed by any member of the
President’s Commission before?

Mr. PAUL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Paul, one final thing—we have the two statements
that you have given to the FBI, and you have what you have told us
tonight—do you think that putting those two things together we have
just about all you know about Jack Ruby and about what he had to do
with the slaying of Oswald and so forth?

Mr. PAUL. I don’t know nothing about the slaying of Oswald—that’s for
sure.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that, but we know all you know about it when
we have what you told us tonight and this statement—there’s nothing
else?

Mr. PAUL. I just told you all I know about Jack Ruby for 15 years.

Mr. HUBERT. There’s nothing we don’t know that you know?

Mr. PAUL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a fair statement?

Mr. PAUL. If I knew any more I would be willing to tell you, because
you didn’t pull the words out of my mouth either.

Mr. HUBERT. No; that’s correct.

Mr. PAUL. I spoke to you as I knew it.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else to add?

Mr. PAUL. No—really, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, thank you, sir. I appreciate your coming in and I am
sorry it took so long.

Mr. PAUL. Well, that’s perfectly all right.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much for coming in.

Mr. PAUL. All right, thank you.



TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR

The testimony of George Senator was taken at 9:45 a.m., on April 21,
1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W.
Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s
Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.


Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of George Senator beginning at 9:45
a.m.

Mr. Senator, my name is Leon Hubert and this is Mr. Burt Griffin. We
are both members of the advisory staff of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963,
the Joint Resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure
adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and
the joint resolution, we have both been authorized to take a sworn
deposition from you, Mr. Senator.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Senator, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about
Jack Ruby.

Now, Mr. Senator, I think you have appeared today by virtue of written
request made to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff
of the President’s Commission. Is that a fact, sir?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive that letter?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the date of it?

Mr. SENATOR. April 16, 1964.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive it?

Mr. SENATOR. I received it Saturday. I don’t know what date it was.
What was the date Saturday?

Mr. HUBERT. Saturday would have been the 18th.

Now, under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a
3-day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition, but the
rules adopted by the Commission also provide that a witness may waive
this notice, and I ask you now whether you do waive the notice in the
event that you did not get the full 3 days.

Mr. SENATOR. We will continue.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand by your answer that you say that you do waive
it.

Mr. SENATOR. I waive it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, Mr. Senator. Will you rise now and take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this
matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?

Mr. SENATOR. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Now will you state your full name?

Mr. SENATOR. George Senator.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, Mr. Senator?

Mr. SENATOR. Fifty years old. I was born in Gloversville, N.Y.

Mr. HUBERT. And when?

Mr. SENATOR. September 4, 1913.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your present address, that is residence?

Mr. SENATOR. Right now?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. 2255 Grand Concourse, Bronx, N.Y.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that your permanent residence?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I mean I just come up, you know, I just came to New
York about 2½ weeks ago and am staying with my sister temporarily.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you propose to go to another place, to move to another
place?

Mr. SENATOR. Eventually I will, yes; in New York, but momentarily I do
not know where.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you are staying at your sister’s home
temporarily?

Mr. SENATOR. Temporarily.

Mr. HUBERT. But your purpose is to live in New York?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you will, when you find an apartment, some other place
to live, move out from your sister’s house?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you would go over briefly in your own words the
facts of your life, particularly where you lived, and your occupation,
beginning actually with your education.

Mr. SENATOR. My education was up to the eighth grade.

Mr. HUBERT. And where was that?

Mr. SENATOR. Gloversville, N.Y.

Mr. HUBERT. Then after you finished the eighth grade, what did you do?

Mr. SENATOR. I moved to New York and went to work.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean New York City?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; New York City. I lived with my sister, too. I mean I
moved in with my sister at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the same sister you are now living with?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is her name, by the way?

Mr. SENATOR. Freda Weisberg, Mrs. A. J. Weisberg.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live with her?

Mr. SENATOR. Originally, let me say approximately about 3 years. I went
back and forth actually from New York back to home. Of course, I was
only in my teens then.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of work did you do?

Mr. SENATOR. In New York I was working in a silk house, I was working
for a wholesaler where we delivered silk to the dress manufacturer.

Mr. HUBERT. And you continued in that occupation——

Mr. SENATOR. Just in my young teens.

Mr. HUBERT. Until you were how old?

Mr. SENATOR. Possibly about 18, to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. You were living with your sister as you said?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, at age 18, did your life take a change by way of
occupation and residence?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I got sick a couple of times so every time I got
sick I went home to mother. I went back home. Of course, the distance,
was about 190 miles from my home town to New York City. At one time
I had pleurisy, went back home and stayed a year. Another time I had
peritonitis. I went back home again.

Mr. HUBERT. This was after age 18 or before?

Mr. SENATOR. No; this is now after 18.

Mr. HUBERT. Then I take it that after age 18 and for a period of 1 or
2 years you were not working because of illness and you were staying
mostly with your mother at home?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; well, my brother had a restaurant, or rather, still
does. He has a restaurant. I used to help him up there.

Mr. HUBERT. Where? What place was that?

Mr. SENATOR. Gloversville, N.Y. He had a restaurant by his name, by his
last name.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work with him?

Mr. SENATOR. On and off, this is a rough guess, it has been so many
years. I would probably say maybe a couple of years, something like
that.

Mr. HUBERT. At which time you lived with your mother?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, I lived home.

Mr. HUBERT. Would that take us then in your life to about age 22?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say around there, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened after those days of your life?

Mr. SENATOR. Then I went back. I can’t quote you the exact years, but I
went back to New York.

Mr. HUBERT. City, you mean?

Mr. SENATOR. New York City, and I went to work for a—I was jerking
sodas in the early thirties. That is when I was in my twenties yet then.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live during that period?

Mr. SENATOR. I was still home with my sister. I went back. I shuttled
either from my sister to my mother.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not have any residence of your own?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did she live during that period?

Mr. SENATOR. My sister? She lived in the Bronx, still does.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean the same address?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the address, or were there several? I am
talking now about this other period, you see, that is to say when you——

Mr. SENATOR. I can think of the streets but I probably could not think
of the numbers.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, that is all right. Give us the streets.

Mr. SENATOR. All right. When I originally came to New York it was on
Davidson Avenue in the Bronx.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have been when you were about 12 years old?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no. I first came to New York when I was 15.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did she live then?

Mr. SENATOR. On Davidson Avenue in the Bronx. Then from Davidson I
think I moved to Walton Avenue. These are all close by, these streets,
you know. I would probably say a distance of maybe 4, 5, or 6 blocks,
something of that nature. Then I lived there—I am trying to think now.
I have to jump back a lot of years and can’t think of these outright.

Mr. HUBERT. We understand that and we understand therefore that your
answers must be approximations.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, they are approximations. When I got this job jerking
sodas there, now I’m in my twenties already. Of course, this is in the
1930 years. I was approximately around 25 when I was working in the
Bronx jerking sodas and still living with my sister.

Mr. HUBERT. That was around 1938, I take it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, and 1939; 1938 and 1939.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the place at which you worked?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, sure, J. S. Krums, chocolatiers. That is on the Grand
Concourse.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say I may have been there around 2 years.
Now this is roughly guessing. Then the place went out on strike and I
went out of a job. Then from there, two other fellows who were employed
with us, we all went down to Florida. We went down to Florida for the
winter and got a job there for $14 a week and stayed all winter, then
we come back again.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work were you doing and who was your employer?

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Or employers?

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t remember. It was a cafeteria with a soda
fountain and I worked at the soda fountain. It has been so many, many
years.

Mr. HUBERT. Who were the other two people that you went with?

Mr. SENATOR. One fellow, his name was Ike Heilberun, and the other is—I
can’t remember his name.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen either of those two people in the last 10 or
20 years?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say—no, one I haven’t seen in many, many years. As
a matter of fact, I think even before the war.

Mr. HUBERT. Which one, the one whose name you don’t remember?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And the other one?

Mr. SENATOR. The other I think the last time I saw him must have been
maybe around 6 years or 7 years ago. He is down in Florida.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work is he doing?

Mr. SENATOR. He is in the stationery business, if he still is, I mean.
He was.

Mr. HUBERT. And you met him in connection with work or socially or how,
that is 6 years ago?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; it happened to be I went down there. I went down
there for a vacation there.

Mr. HUBERT. And you looked him up?

Mr. SENATOR. And I looked him up and I found him and when I found him
he was in the stationery end.

Mr. HUBERT. How extended was your visit with him then?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, just casual. I would probably say maybe I saw him two
or three times.

Mr. HUBERT. No business relations?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; no business relations whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s go back now and pick up the time when you came back
from Florida. I say “came back.” I assume you went back to New York.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I went back to New York.

Mr. HUBERT. And tell us again——

Mr. SENATOR. I do not remember if I stayed in New York or went back
home now, because I would say on and off I had worked for my brother at
various times.

Mr. HUBERT. Your brother?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is his name?

Mr. SENATOR. Jake Senator. Senator’s Restaurant in Gloversville, N.Y. I
worked on and off at his place many times.

Mr. HUBERT. How far have you progressed in your own mind as to this
chronicle of your life? We are up to what year now that you were
working for your brother?

Mr. SENATOR. At the time I enlisted. In other words, when the war broke
out I enlisted down at Albany, N.Y., at the Federal Building in Albany,
N.Y. That was in August of 1941, I believe. I think it was August 20 or
August 21, 1941, and I was with my brother at the time when I enlisted.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember working for the Admiral Hotel in Miami
Beach and the Times Square Cafeteria?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is it. That is the place, the Times Square
Cafeteria.

Mr. HUBERT. And David and Elizabeth Rosner at the Astor Hotel?

Mr. SENATOR. It could be possible. I just don’t remember. It could be
possible.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were in Miami and worked for several
people whose names I have mentioned during the winter of 1939–40 and
until about the end of the season in Miami Beach, I take it?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you enlist?

Mr. SENATOR. I enlisted August 20 or 21 of 1941.

Mr. HUBERT. That was before Pearl Harbor then?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what you did or where you lived from the
summer of 1940?

Mr. SENATOR. What is that?

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what occupation you had or where you lived
from the summer of 1940 when you returned from Miami to New York until
you entered into the service in August of 1941?

Mr. SENATOR. I believe I was back home with my brother.

Mr. HUBERT. That is working for him?

Mr. SENATOR. The restaurant, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in the service?

Mr. SENATOR. I’ll have to read it, or I’ll let you read it.

Mr. HUBERT. No: that is all right. You served for the duration of the
war, I suppose? You hand me now a little document which is a laminated
copy.

Mr. SENATOR. The reason I handed you that is because I lost my original
and I am happy that I have got that.

Mr. HUBERT. You were honorably discharged from the Army of the United
States on September 9, 1945, given to you at the Separation Center,
Fort Dix, N.J? This reflects also that you were a staff sergeant.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That your serial number was 12006042, and that at the time
of your discharge you were with the 101st Bomber Fortress Squadron?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; when I came out.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Then after you left the service in September of
1945, where did you go and what did you do?

Mr. SENATOR. When I came back out of the service, this fellow Ike
Heilberun, who I mentioned living down there, we went into the
luncheonette business and lasted approximately about a year and lost
our shirts.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of that? Is that the outfit called the
Denise Foods, Inc.?

Mr. SENATOR. Where is that located? Do you have the location on that?

Mr. HUBERT. 254 West 35th Street.

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t remember the name. I remember the street. That
is why I asked you.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, that was a corporation formed by you and
this man you talked about?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. We bought somebody out, that is right.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were occupied with that endeavor through most of
1946?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say approximately about that to the best of my
knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. And where did you live then?

Mr. SENATOR. I was living—of course, I can’t remember if I got married
before that or after that.

Mr. HUBERT. But sometime along in there after you left the service, you
got married?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I believe I got married in January 1946, if I am not
mistaken.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of the lady you married?

Mr. SENATOR. Sherley Baren.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell that?

Mr. SENATOR. B-a-r-e-n.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you still married to her?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you divorced?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When? Approximately.

Mr. SENATOR. Approximately about 7 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Ago?

Mr. SENATOR. Approximately, I’m not sure of the date. I’d say
approximately about that.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you lived together as man and wife
approximately for 10 years?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Seven years ago would be 1957. You said that you married
her in January of 1946. Maybe you did not live together that long.
Maybe the divorce came after you had physically separated.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Actually, we had been separated I would probably say
around 3 years, I think. I think it must have been around 3 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Before the divorce?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I think that is it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any children of that marriage?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I have one son 16 years old.

Mr. HUBERT. He is now 16 years old?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is his name?

Mr. SENATOR. Bobby.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you divorced?

Mr. SENATOR. Through the mail. She was in Miami and I was in Texas.

Mr. HUBERT. But where were the divorce proceedings actually instituted?

Mr. SENATOR. In Miami.

Mr. HUBERT. She brought the divorce suit?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Has she remarried?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know to whom?

Mr. SENATOR. His name is Milton Wechsler. I am not sure of the spelling
of it. I think it is W-e-c-h-s-l-e-r. I think that is how you spell it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where they live?

Mr. SENATOR. Coral Gables.

Mr. HUBERT. Now would you tell us of your occupation and residences
after your marriage, say from January 1946 forward?

Mr. SENATOR. After I went out of business, after my partner and I went
out of business, I moved down to Miami and I had two or three odd jobs
there.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?

Mr. SENATOR. At these jobs, do you mean?

Mr. HUBERT. No.

Mr. SENATOR. Or Miami?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I stayed in Miami, I would say, around 7 or 8 years. As a
rough guess, something like that, offhand.

Mr. HUBERT. You had a number of jobs during the first year that you got
there; is that right?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work did you do?

Mr. SENATOR. Restaurant-type work.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that your social security records indicate that
you either had no earnings or at least that none were reported for the
second half of 1947 and the first half of 1948, approximately a year.
Can you explain that?

Mr. SENATOR. 1947 and 1948?

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, for the third and fourth quarters from
a social security point of view of 1947 and the first and second
quarters——

Mr. SENATOR. Of 1948?

Mr. HUBERT. Of 1948, so it would be roughly from July 1947 to June of
1948 there were no earnings reported.

Mr. SENATOR. 1947 and 1948?

Mr. HUBERT. After which—this may assist your memory—for the third
quarter of 1948, that is say from July on, you report having worked at
the Lake Carrolton Club Grill in Pike. N.H.

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So, perhaps if you remember working in New Hampshire, you
can back off and tell us what happened in that year when there were no
earnings reported. This may assist you too. The social security records
show that in the first quarter of 1947, that would have been January,
February, and March, you apparently worked for the T-A Hensroost.

Mr. SENATOR. I believe that was the first job I had when I got down in
Miami, if I am not mistaken. I think that was the first job I got. That
was an open stand on the oceanfront.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that you worked there actually for the
first 6 months?

Mr. SENATOR. At the Hensroost?

Mr. HUBERT. Of 1947.

Mr. SENATOR. At Hensroost? I can’t quote how long I worked there, but I
know that I worked there.

Mr. HUBERT. Now then, perhaps we can reconstruct the thing, because
you apparently left there at the Hensroost in midsummer of 1947, and
then you pick up in midsummer of 1948 in New Hampshire, and it is the
intervening year that I would like to have you cover.

Mr. SENATOR. Wait a minute. Oh, then I think after that, yes, I was out
of a job for a while and I don’t recall how long. Then I got a job in
another little luncheonette for a while and I don’t know how long that
was.

Mr. HUBERT. It may be that you did not have enough earnings to require
reporting them, you see. What I am trying to do is assist your memory.
Do you recall leaving Miami Beach to go to New Hampshire?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure; I remember going. I don’t remember what year,
but I remember going, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time of the year, whatever year it was?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I went there for one summer.

Mr. HUBERT. For the season?

Mr. SENATOR. The season; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Your wife went with you?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. She stayed in Miami?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When you finished the season there, what happened?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I come back and I was—I’m trying to think. What year
was that, 1940-what?

Mr. HUBERT. It was the last half of 1948. Perhaps I can assist your
memory too by pointing out that your social security records indicate
that you worked for T-A Troops.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, that is the place I was trying to mention to you but
I couldn’t think of it. Now I don’t remember if I worked for that place
after I come back or before. That is the thing I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. You worked for that place quite a length of time, I believe.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long? Do you remember?

Mr. SENATOR. Gee, I don’t remember how long I worked there.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live when you were working for Troops?

Mr. SENATOR. Northwest Fourth Terrace.

Mr. HUBERT. Miami Beach?

Mr. SENATOR. No; Miami.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the restaurant was in Miami Beach?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. On Collins Avenue?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You lived in Miami City itself?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you living with your wife then?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what your next move was?

Mr. SENATOR. I believe my next move is I got a job selling. I was
broken in selling women’s apparel, if I recall right.

Mr. HUBERT. Women’s apparel?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Before we leave the Miami Beach situation, what was
the cause of your leaving Miami Beach and the Miami area, because
apparently you did?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean when I went to Texas?

Mr. HUBERT. No, when you left Miami you did not go directly to Texas,
did you?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.

Mr. HUBERT. You did?

Mr. SENATOR. Sure. Come this May 15, and I think I am pretty well on
the date, I have been in Texas 10 years.

Mr. HUBERT. So you moved to Texas in 1954?

Mr. SENATOR. May of 1954.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember working for the Rhea Manufacturing Co.?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; out of Milwaukee, Wis. That was my start. Is that in
the year of 1950, something like that? I don’t remember, 1949, 1948?

Mr. HUBERT. The social security records indicate 1951.

Mr. SENATOR. Is that what it is? I just don’t remember. It could be
1951.

Mr. HUBERT. You were working for Rhea Manufacturing Co., and the
records also show that you worked for Smoler Bros., Inc., in Chicago.

Mr. SENATOR. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. The Rhea Manufacturing Co. was in Milwaukee, Wis. Did you
live in Milwaukee?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And in Chicago?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words——

Mr. SENATOR. I only worked for them out of there. In other words, the
only time that I ever went there is when they had sales meetings, when
they called the people in for sales meetings.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you living then?

Mr. SENATOR. In Miami.

Mr. HUBERT. That same residence?

Mr. SENATOR. Northwest Fourth Terrace?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your area, sales area?

Mr. SENATOR. Florida.

Mr. HUBERT. Just Florida?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You sold women’s apparel?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Wholesale?

Mr. SENATOR. Wholesalers. They were manufacturers.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice from these records, too, that apparently during
the years 1951, 1952, and 1953, your employer seems to alternate
between Smoler Bros., Inc., and Hartley’s, whose address is given as
144 East Flagler in Miami.

Mr. SENATOR. Hartley’s is a large—it almost looks like a department
store but it is not. It is a large specialty shop.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you working for both?

Mr. SENATOR. The only time I worked for Hartley’s was, I think it
was either one or two seasons. I don’t remember which. Just for the
Christmas holidays only.

Mr. HUBERT. When you did work for Hartley’s, did you leave Smoler’s?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Smoler’s continued right on?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. In other words, I would probably say maybe a week or
something like that before the Christmas holidays I worked in there. I
would say approximately like that. Approximately a week or something
like that.

Mr. HUBERT. These records also indicate that actually you worked for
Smoler’s out of Chicago, wherever you actually lived or whatever your
territory might have been, until 1958; is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Smoler’s is the one who forced me to Texas.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that.

Mr. SENATOR. There were two men they were releasing in Dallas, Tex.,
and it happened to be I was in Atlanta, Ga., and it happened to be on a
Friday, I recall this very distinctly. My boss called me and I couldn’t
imagine what he was calling me for. He said, “George, we are releasing
a couple of men and we want you to go to Dallas.” And I didn’t want to
go. But he said, “You are going.” So I wound up in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. When was that? I know you said is was a Friday, but do you
remember the year, the month?

Mr. SENATOR. No. Oh, wait; yes. It was 10 years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. 1954?

Mr. SENATOR. Because I have been there—come next month, it will be 10
years I have been there.

Mr. HUBERT. So the telephone conversation on Friday would have been in
May of 1954, on a Friday?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Actually, May 15, I think you said.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I think I arrived in Dallas, I think it was May 15.

Mr. HUBERT. Did your wife go with you?

Mr. SENATOR. No; she wouldn’t go.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been living together up to that time?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that the cause of your separation?

Mr. SENATOR. I believe that is.

Mr. HUBERT. She never did go to Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. No; she wouldn’t go, and I had a job to hold down.

Mr. HUBERT. She kept the child?

Mr. SENATOR. She kept the child.

Mr. HUBERT. And still has it?

Mr. SENATOR. And still has it, and, of course, there could have been
a possibility if I didn’t go—I only say possibility—that I could have
been released from my job. This, I only say, there could have been a
possibility.

Mr. HUBERT. Now tell us what you did then in Dallas. You continued to
work, I take it, for Smoler’s?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live? Can you give us a list of the various
places where you lived?

Mr. SENATOR. The first year I was just living, you know, in motels,
from one place, you know, wherever I was, because I was traveling the
State of Texas.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your territory there?

Mr. SENATOR. Texas.

Mr. HUBERT. The whole of Texas?

Mr. SENATOR. I started off the whole thing and then I wound down until
I probably wound up with just a corner of it. And when I wound up with
that there I said this is not for me, because I can’t make it on only
part of Texas.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, that comes a little later.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live in Dallas? Give us a list of your
various addresses just roughly.

Mr. SENATOR. The first place that I actually centrally located in, I
don’t remember the name of the place but I do remember the name of the
street.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. SENATOR. I could go to the place and know where it is but I can’t
think of the name of the place, which was on McKinney Avenue.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I would probably say, I’d have to guess, I
would probably say maybe 6 months to a year. I’m not sure now.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it an apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it was an apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you alone?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I was with a couple other boys.

Mr. HUBERT. Who were they?

Mr. SENATOR. One fellow by the name of George Guest. George Guest, he
was a, what do you call them, xylophones. He was a musician.

Mr. HUBERT. He played the instrument called the xylophone?

Mr. SENATOR. What is the one with the woods? It is not xylophone. What
is the one that is made out of wood?

Mr. HUBERT. Marimba?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, it is the marimba. Is the marimba made out of wood?

Mr. HUBERT. As a musical instrument?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. A percussion instrument?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did he work?

Mr. SENATOR. He played wherever he got engagements. He got booked
locally, out of town.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was the other one?

Mr. SENATOR. The other one who stayed with us a short while, his name
was Mort Seder.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he do?

Mr. SENATOR. He sells men’s apparel, traveling salesman.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you maintained contact with either of those?

Mr. SENATOR. George Guest got married many, many, years ago. The last I
heard that at that time he had moved to, I think it was Fort Lauderdale
by the sea.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the other one?

Mr. SENATOR. Seder I have seen, the last time I ran across Seder, of
course, he is always traveling, the last time I saw him was, I would
probably say in the last 2 months.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him often prior to that?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure. We lived together for a while. We lived together.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you lived together initially?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And then lived together after that?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes. Wait a minute, I’m trying to figure how we broke
up. Oh, yes, we lived together for a while but he wanted his own place.
He wanted to live alone. At that time he was not doing too well and he
couldn’t stand the pressure of having an apartment by himself, at that
time. So we lived together.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the first 6 months or so when you settled in that
place?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. It happened to be that we both almost got divorced
around the same time. He was living in Houston at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, so that accounts, I take it, for your residence
at the McKinney Street address.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that broke up?

Mr. SENATOR. No; from there it broke up and Seder and I moved to
another place.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?

Mr. SENATOR. That was on Shadyside Lane.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long did you live there?

Mr. SENATOR. This is another guess. I would probably say 6 months to a
year, with a guess again, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. That is you and Seder?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Seder.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go from there?

Mr. SENATOR. Columbia Avenue.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say we may have lived there maybe a
couple of years. I’m not sure now.

Mr. HUBERT. You were still with Seder then?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and that is where he wanted to have his own place.

Mr. HUBERT. So he left you, as it were?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you remain at the Columbia Avenue address?

Mr. SENATOR. I remained there for a while.

Mr. HUBERT. And then what happened?

Mr. SENATOR. I remained there for a while and then he stayed there. I’m
trying to figure where I went from there.

Mr. HUBERT. After you left Seder, if you left the apartment in which
you were living with Seder at Columbia Avenue, do you recall whether
you then——

Mr. SENATOR. I stayed there for a while.

Mr. HUBERT. You stayed there for a while alone?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I had my own place.

Mr. HUBERT. When you moved next, did you move in with somebody else or
were you alone?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I moved in with somebody else. I’m trying to think
where, though.

Mr. HUBERT. It might help if you remember who it was that you lived
with?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I moved to the Oasis.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that an apartment house?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; these are all apartment houses—the various places.
They have all been apartment houses. That was on Live Oak. I believe
that is where I moved next.

Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you share that apartment with?

Mr. SENATOR. I stayed there with two other boys, Ronnie Unger and
Kenny—I can’t think of his last name.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there?

Mr. SENATOR. Pardon me?

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there?

Mr. SENATOR. Let me get to this first, please. After I moved, when I
moved in with them, the thing I was trying to figure out before I got
there, now I got through with Smoler Brothers and I can’t think of what
year. Do you have a listing of it?

Mr. HUBERT. Our records indicate you last worked for Smoler’s, or
rather, that there is no more income reported from Smoler’s after July
of 1958.

Mr. SENATOR. That is probably when I got through, in 1958. That is when
I got through with Smoler’s, in 1958. I don’t remember when I was with
Smoler’s that I was still living at Columbia Avenue or not. I may have
been living there yet. I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, we have the sequence of your addresses and the last
place was at the Oasis.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, from Oasis where did you go to live?

Mr. SENATOR. Where I moved to?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. From the Oasis I think, I’m not sure now but I think from
the Oasis, I think I went on the road for 9 months and just lived all
over, if I recall right.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you working with Smoler’s then?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I’m not sure I went from the Oasis. I don’t remember
if I——

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if this will assist your memory. The social
security reports indicate that after the second quarter of 1958, which
would mean after July of 1958, you reported no income or no earnings
were reported, put it that way, for the last half of 1958, for all of
1959, for all of 1960, and for all of 1961. Now, can you tell us what
you were doing and where you were living for those 3½ years, starting
from July of 1958 until apparently——

Mr. SENATOR. July of 1958?

Mr. HUBERT. July of 1958 until apparently the beginning of 1962, when
you were employed by the Volume Sales Co. and Merchandise Mart, Dallas.
That is 3½ years there and I would like to know just what you were
doing and where you were living?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t know if I can put them all together right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do the best you can.

Mr. SENATOR. Now, when I was still living on Columbia Avenue, I don’t
remember if I was still with Smoler’s then.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case you moved to the Oasis?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I moved to the Oasis.

Mr. HUBERT. From the Oasis and after you left Smoler’s whenever it was,
you got on the road.

Mr. SENATOR. Wait; after I left Smoler’s, I had a couple of odd jobs
traveling which did not mean too much because they were not top lines
and moneywise there was no money to really be made. These were odds,
and then I finally got back with Rhea again.

Mr. HUBERT. R-h-e-a?

Mr. SENATOR. R-h-e-a. Rhea Manufacturing.

Mr. HUBERT. Milwaukee?

Mr. SENATOR. Milwaukee. I got back with Rhea again, I don’t remember
what year. But anyhow, in between that I would almost say there could
be a span with a rough guess approximately about a year and a half I
was unemployed.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you manage to sustain yourself by way of paying
normal expenses?

Mr. SENATOR. I was cooking for the boys and doing odd things for them.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you living in Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.

Mr. HUBERT. All that period?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, during the period we are talking about, the
3½ years from July of 1958 until January of 1962, you never did change
your residence from Dallas, even though you might be traveling?

Mr. SENATOR. January of 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s get this part settled. From the time you left
Smoler’s, you were definitely living in Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever actually establish a residence of a permanent
nature other than in Dallas any place else?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. So that even though you were traveling during those years,
doing odd jobs or for Rhea’s, you always lived in Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; wait, there was one time, excuse me, I was staying
with a friend of mine in Houston. There was one time, I remember that.

Mr. HUBERT. How long ago?

Mr. SENATOR. But actually, that still wasn’t a permanent residence
because I was traveling with this guy because I was unemployed and I
used to help him.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?

Mr. SENATOR. His name is George Hamrah.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell it?

Mr. SENATOR. H-a-m-r-a-h.

Mr. HUBERT. He still lives in Houston?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he still lives in Houston.

Mr. HUBERT. So aside from that period that you are talking about, you
always lived in Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you bring us forward then as to your residence from the
Oasis on?

Mr. SENATOR. From the Oasis I believe now, I believe from the Oasis I
went to Jack Ruby’s, if I am not mistaken. I think I moved in with Jack.

Wait, I’ll tell you when I moved in with Jack. It was in February or
March, I’m not sure now, of 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. And you think that you were in the Oasis in the interval.

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; wait, wait. Before I moved in, excuse me, yes,
I moved in with Jack from the Oasis. Now I lived in three different
places in the Oasis with different boys because I was unemployed.

Mr. HUBERT. We are not particularly interested in the apartment numbers
in the Oasis.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But we are in the names of the people that you lived with
at the Oasis.

Mr. SENATOR. I gave you the names——

Mr. HUBERT. Of two of them, as I recall.

Mr. SENATOR. Of one apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Right. Then another apartment I lived in, the fellow, his
name was Frank Irwin.

Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.

Mr. SENATOR. The other one was James Young, and the other one was—this
is all in one apartment. I can’t think of the other one’s name.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen them in the last few years?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, the last time I saw any of them was around the latter
part of last year.

Mr. HUBERT. Even the man whose name you don’t know?

Mr. SENATOR. Even the man whose name I don’t know. I’m trying to think
of his name. I shouldn’t forget it. I think it is John.

Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps it will come to you in a minute. We will come back
to it.

Mr. SENATOR. I shouldn’t forget his name as long as I’ve known him. I
just can’t put my finger——

Mr. HUBERT. But you lived with those people at the Oasis?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. At various apartments?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Until January or February of 1962 when you moved in with
Jack Ruby; is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was Ruby living then?

Mr. SENATOR. Ruby was living at the Marsalla—

Mr. HUBERT. Palace?

Mr. SENATOR. There is a bunch of apartments there.

Mr. HUBERT. Marsalla South?

Mr. SENATOR. It may have been Marsalla South.

Mr. HUBERT. There is actually a Marsalis Street; is there not?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but there is an apartment, a few begin with Marsalla,
Marsalla Apartments or Marsalla South. This one here was on Marsalla on
the street.

Mr. HUBERT. It was on Marsalis Street?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live with Jack then?

Mr. SENATOR. At that time I stayed, I lived with him approximately 5 to
6 months; something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Anybody else live there with you?

Mr. SENATOR. No; just Jack and myself.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the occasion for your leaving him?

Mr. SENATOR. I left him because I had a chance to go into the postcard
business.

Mr. HUBERT. How does that relate to leaving Jack? You still lived in
Dallas; did you not?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure. I never left Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live after you left Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. After I left who?

Mr. HUBERT. Ruby. Now, incidentally, I judge from the dates that that
would have been around in September.

Mr. SENATOR. August.

Mr. HUBERT. August of 1962?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; August.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go then?

Mr. SENATOR. I moved in with a fellow whose name was Stan Corbat.

Mr. HUBERT. And where was that apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. That was on Maple Avenue.

Mr. HUBERT. You say that the reason why you moved from Jack’s was
because you got a chance to be a salesman in the postcard business?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How does that relate, how does your getting this employment
relate to your moving from Jack’s apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack likes to live alone in the overall picture. First of
all, it is an interference of the time that I wake up and the time that
he goes to bed which don’t coincide. That is part. And then Jack don’t
live too clean. I mean he is a type—in other words, he comes home, he
is reading a newspaper, on the floor, if he is in the bathroom the
newspaper goes on the floor and things of that nature. Though he was
very clean about himself, he wasn’t clean around the apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. I judge from what you tell me then that your real reasons
for moving were those that you just mentioned rather than the fact that
you got employment selling postcards? Is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. Why I moved?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Please run that back again.

Mr. HUBERT. I say I judge from what you have said that the real
reason for your moving from the apartment with Jack in 1962 was your
dissatisfaction with the living conditions rather than that you got a
job selling postcards?

Mr. SENATOR. No; not necessarily. I mean that is part of it. That is
not necessarily it; no.

Mr. HUBERT. How does the postcard job, selling postcards, contribute or
how did it contribute to the fact that you had to move from Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I didn’t have to. I didn’t have to; but this way here
I started to get self-sustaining a little bit.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see. So you had a steady job?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; see, the other way, when I was living with Jack, of
course, I was helping him at the club. I was helping him at the club,
and, of course, I abided by everything he said and did.

Mr. HUBERT. So the reasons for moving then, were a combination of
factors. One, that you were dissatisfied generally with the living
conditions as you have indicated?

Mr. SENATOR. That is only partially it. I had a chance to go out.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were financially better off and you had a chance to
go with Corbat, and you did?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long did you stay with Corbat?

Mr. SENATOR. When I went in with Corbat, of course, he only had a
one-bedroom apartment and I had to sleep on the couch again. I slept
on so many couches lately. So I told Stan, I told this friend of mine,
Corbat, when we were staying on Maple Avenue, that just as soon as I
get a little extra money I want to get a two-bedroom apartment and that
is where I moved into this last apartment, 225 South Ewing.

Mr. HUBERT. That was about when?

Mr. SENATOR. I moved in there, I believe it was the latter part of
November of 1962, we found a nice two-bedroom apartment that was very
reasonable. I told Jack about it and Jack moved next door.

Mr. HUBERT. But he moved later than you, didn’t he?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, see, I moved in first.

Mr. HUBERT. With Corbat?

Mr. SENATOR. No. Yes; first I went in alone, no furniture or nothing. I
moved in alone and I was there approximately about a week or something
like that, and Corbat stayed over at the other place because he wanted
to finish the balance of the month out. He wanted his last days in
there, you know, for we paid for the rent, and then he moved in right
after that.

Mr. HUBERT. He moved in with you?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was in November of 1962?

Mr. SENATOR. I believe it was the latter part of November of 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. When did Ruby move in?

Mr. SENATOR. He moved in around that same time.

Mr. HUBERT. But after you?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I would probably say within the week I would probably
say, something like that, within that week.

Mr. HUBERT. And then you stayed there until when?

Mr. SENATOR. The unfateful day.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t live with Corbat all that while?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I lived with Corbat from the time we moved in there
until August.

Mr. HUBERT. Of 1963?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now, the reason Corbat moved out——

Mr. HUBERT. Ruby had another apartment in the same building?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, yes; we lived, you know, one apartment next to the
other. Now, the reason Corbat moved was because he got married August
8, and there I was in the apartment alone and I couldn’t handle it
alone. But I did stay there 2 months with a struggle.

Mr. HUBERT. So then when did you move from that apartment to Ruby’s
apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. It was the first week in November of 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. By the way, would you state for the record what was the
number of the apartment you and Corbat had?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know the number. I said Maple Avenue. The
apartment was Granberry. You mean on Maple Avenue?

Mr. HUBERT. No.

Mr. SENATOR. Room number?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; on South Ewing.

Mr. SENATOR. 223 South Ewing.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the apartment number that you lived in with Corbat
which was next door, you say, to Jack’s and what was Ruby’s number. I
want to get that in the record.

Mr. SENATOR. I think Ruby’s was 206 and mine was 207, if I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. They were next to one another, or opposite?

Mr. SENATOR. No; in other words, you go along this corridor. There is
one apartment here. Right next door there is another apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. And they are numbered in sequence?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; 206, I believe his was 206 and mine was 207,
something like that. I think it was 206 and 207.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, for a moment, let’s go back to Frank Irwin, who was
one of your roommates. Have you seen him lately?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I have not seen Frank in, oh, I imagine it must be a
couple years.

Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing when you last saw him?

Mr. SENATOR. What does he do?

Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing then?

Mr. SENATOR. I believe he is a guard for the Bell Helicopter.

Mr. HUBERT. What about James Young?

Mr. SENATOR. James Young works for a finance—I think it is a finance
corporation called Warner.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you last see him?

Mr. SENATOR. I saw him, he was coming through, he was working out of El
Paso and he was being transferred, I think he said to Oklahoma City,
and I saw him that one day, rather, that one night in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. What time?

Mr. SENATOR. At night.

Mr. HUBERT. No; what day?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. What time of the year, what month?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I think it was in December.

Mr. HUBERT. Of 1963?

Mr. SENATOR. I think so, in December 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. When had you seen him prior to that time?

Mr. SENATOR. Prior to that time? I don’t remember. It could have been a
couple years, I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned that there was another man, a third
man——

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Whose name you couldn’t remember at the time. Can you
remember his name now?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack Loftus.

Mr. HUBERT. L-o-f-t-u-s?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, that is correct, Jack Loftus, and he lives in
Hillsboro, if he is still there.

Mr. HUBERT. What is his occupation?

Mr. SENATOR. I think he works for a newspaper down there now in
Hillsboro.

Mr. HUBERT. Texas?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, Hillsboro, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time you saw him?

Mr. SENATOR. I saw him the same night I saw Young. I may have seen
him after that. I know I have seen him a couple of times, but I don’t
remember if it was after that or before that. I don’t remember that,
but I do definitely remember seeing him the last time in December. This
part I do remember.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the same day you saw Young?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that just a coincidence or was it a plan?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; no coincidence. They were looking for me and I’ll
tell you where I saw him. I saw him up at Jack Ruby’s club.

Mr. HUBERT. That was after Oswald was shot?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. They were looking for you for what reason?

Mr. SENATOR. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. For what reason were they looking? Why were they looking
for you?

Mr. SENATOR. Just friends, that is all, because I had lived with them,
you know, for a while. Nothing particular.

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose, too, they had known that you were in the
apartment with Ruby.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, it was national news.

Mr. SENATOR. They had read of the incident or heard of the incident
somehow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that after Ruby killed Oswald that you saw
them?

Mr. SENATOR. These two boys?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I think it was in December now. I don’t remember if it was
a week, two or three. I’m not sure. I just don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you relate it to say Christmastime, Christmas day?

Mr. SENATOR. It could be. I just can’t think of when it was. Possibly.

Mr. HUBERT. How long prior to then had you seen Loftus?

Mr. SENATOR. Before?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, say before Oswald was shot. How long had it been since
you had seen Loftus?

Mr. SENATOR. Let me put it this way: I can’t quote it. I really can’t
quote it, but I would say that he lived in Hillsboro and he used to
come up on weekends and I believe he stayed with his friend in Irving,
Frank Irwin.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the friend’s name?

Mr. SENATOR. Frank Irwin.

Mr. HUBERT. I-r-w-i-n?

Mr. SENATOR. I-r-w-i-n, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that person lived in Irving, Tex.?

Mr. SENATOR. Irving, yes; he lived in Irving. Now I used to run across
him once in a while. He used to come up you know for the weekend.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he know Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he knew him casually.

Mr. HUBERT. What about these others, Frank Irwin and James Young?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if they knew Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Stanley Corbat know him?

Mr. SENATOR. Casually, because Stanley and I lived next door to him.
But, of course, Stan never went to his club unless I took him there.

Mr. HUBERT. Stan got married, of course, and that is why he moved out
of the apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is he living now, in Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know the number, but I think he is living on
Munger Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen him since Oswald was shot?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you come in contact with him, socially?

Mr. SENATOR. I just happened to run across him one day. I ran across
him once in a delicatessen.

Mr. HUBERT. Just once?

Mr. SENATOR. In the delicatessen. I ran across him once in a
delicatessen. Then I ran across him another time. As a matter of fact,
I ran across him I think it was twice since the happenings.

Mr. HUBERT. What does he do?

Mr. SENATOR. He is a buyer for a department store. He buys women’s
budget dresses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which department store?

Mr. SENATOR. Titche.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is in Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located?

Mr. SENATOR. That is I think on Main Street. I think it is on Main
Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you a few other questions about yourself.

Have you ever been in any difficulties with the law, that is to say, by
way of charges?

Mr. SENATOR. No; the only incident I ever had with the law, and I have
been asked many times before on this already, that one night—this goes
back maybe 3 or 4 years ago—there was another chap and I, we went to a
cocktail lounge and we both had two scotches and water. We crossed the
street and I think we crossed the street against the light because in
Dallas they are very meticulous of crossing against the lights, and we
went into the coffee shop to get something to eat. We no sooner got in
the coffee shop than two cops nabbed me, us rather. They said we were
drunk. Now I wasn’t any more drunk than he was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they charge you?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they took us down to jail, 4 hours to sober up, but I
had nothing to sober up with.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they follow up with any charges?

Mr. SENATOR. No; we were fined $15.

Mr. HUBERT. You were fined?

Mr. SENATOR. I believe it was $15.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the only time?

Mr. SENATOR. The only time in my life.

Mr. HUBERT. The only time you have ever been arrested?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. There have been no other charges?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Also I gather from the fact that you got an honorable
discharge, that you had no difficulties with military justice?

Mr. SENATOR. Never.

Mr. HUBERT. During the war?

Mr. SENATOR. Never, none whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, while you were living in Miami, did you have occasion
to get to know or meet or make friends with, either one, any person who
would be classified as gamblers, professional gamblers?

Mr. SENATOR. Professional?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to any gambling houses?

Mr. SENATOR. Me? No; of course I’m certain there must be sneak gambling
you know, like anyone else. They call it sneak gambling, you know, you
do it under cover. But at that time when I got down there, I think it
was either shut down or close to being shut down. I don’t remember just
what year it was. They just clamped down, you know.

Of course, I remember when I first went there as a kid, everything was
open. Slot machines used to be on the streets and all that.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you yourself ever done any gambling?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I’m no gambler. When you put it this way, I will
put it this way: You mean have I played poker at home, 5 and 10 or
something like that?

Mr. HUBERT. No.

Mr. SENATOR. No; the only time that I ever did any gambling was when
I was overseas. I was in the jungles for approximately 3 years. What
other recreation did we have? So we gambled.

Mr. HUBERT. I want to explore a bit more the means by which you
obtained money to live during the 2½ years that you were apparently
unemployed, at least no earnings were reported, that is to say, from
July of 1958 until the first of 1962.

Mr. SENATOR. What years?

Mr. HUBERT. According to the records, there were no earnings reported
for you by anybody nor did you apparently report any yourself from July
roughly of 1958 until January 1 of 1962, or the first part of 1962.

Mr. SENATOR. Approximately about 4 weeks ago the Internal Revenue had
me and they called me right after I got off the witness stand at the
Jack Ruby trial that they wanted to see me.

Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.

Mr. SENATOR. They gave me a notice to come up and see them. They
allowed me 10 days to come up and see them, which I did.

When I was unemployed, when I lost my job I think it was in 1958, when
I was with Rhea, which is a very depressing feeling, I don’t know how
to explain this, I really don’t know how to explain it to you, I didn’t
file. Why I didn’t file I can’t even answer, I don’t know why I didn’t
file.

Mr. HUBERT. Before you get to that, maybe we ought to get to this part.

You say you lost your job. You are talking about being with Smoler’s?

Mr. SENATOR. No; that was with Rhea.

Mr. HUBERT. You were with Smoler’s a long time. What caused you to lose
your job there?

Mr. SENATOR. With Smoler Brothers?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. As I say, they weren’t happy with me and I wasn’t happy
with them.

First of all, I’ll tell you they had cut down the territory and they
were unhappy with the type business I was doing. So, this was a volume
house, and the type operation was, I don’t know if I classify, if I
tell you $3.75 a dress, I don’t know if it means anything to you or
not, but at this price range, at the wholesale price range, you have
got to do a volume business to make any money. And through this they
weren’t happy. And I wasn’t happy because they had cut my territory
down so, so we parted good friends. I wasn’t making any money anyhow
over that.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you had times with Smoler’s when you had done
considerably better?

Mr. SENATOR. There were times that I did better. I don’t say that I did
a fantastic job with them, but I have done a little better than that.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been able to make any savings to carry you forward?

You see, that is what I want to get at. We find when you left Smoler’s,
you go to Rhea’s——

Mr. SENATOR. Excuse me, before I went to Rhea I had other odd jobs you
know that were nothing to speak of.

Mr. HUBERT. Here is what I want to get at.

Here is a period of 2½ years, you had to have some money to live on
or people gave you money or something of that sort. Now tell us about
that.

Mr. SENATOR. I lived on handouts.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about it.

Mr. SENATOR. I lived on handouts. When I mentioned these boys here and
I was living on handouts with them. In other words, I used to cook for
them and wash dishes and things of that nature. I was really depressed,
extremely depressed and down and out, and they slipped me five, three,
two, whatever it was, and I helped them along in the house there and
they kept me for a while.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not pay any part of the rent?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is true for that whole 2½-year period?

Mr. SENATOR. It wasn’t two and a half. I would say it was approximately
a year and a half, to my knowledge. I don’t think it was 2½ years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You went from Smoler Brothers to Rhea directly?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; I say I had the odd jobs directly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how much time was there between Smoler Brothers and
Rhea?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think there was much time between them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you say, 3 months?

Mr. SENATOR. It’s hard for me to really guess. I’d have to make such a
fantastic guess I wouldn’t know if I was right or wrong.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was not too long ago. This was back in 1957.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, if I told you 3 months I don’t know how close I’d be
and if I told you 6 months I don’t know how far I’d be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you had odd jobs. Can you be more specific?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, I was with another dress house for a short while,
which didn’t last too long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Doing the same kind of work?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, doing the same kind of work.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Covering territory?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, they were with a top house. I didn’t stay with them
long and I wasn’t making any money with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What company was that?

Mr. SENATOR. Junior Age. I don’t believe they are in business any more.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say you were with them?

Mr. SENATOR. It may have been 3 months. I don’t know, 2 months, 4
months. I’m not sure. It wasn’t too long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on a straight commission with them?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. No, a draw against commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A draw against commission?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But if you didn’t make your draw, you were in the hole
with them and had to pay it back supposedly, somehow?

Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t pay it back, but I was in the hole, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But after you left this dress house, who did you work for
next?

Mr. SENATOR. I’m trying to think from the time there until Rhea. I know
I did some odd things. I was with Rhea——

Mr. HUBERT. Were these odd things always in the same line, or did you
get into other lines?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I worked in a little bare place, I think I lasted, I
worked there for about 6 weeks once at hardly nothing, just to keep me
going.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that in Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that was before you worked for Rhea, or was it?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I think that was after. I think that was after I
worked for Rhea.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did the Rhea employment last?

Mr. SENATOR. I may have been with them maybe a year, year and a half,
I’m not sure now.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any money off of that?

Mr. SENATOR. Just a draw part.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on the handout basis when you were working for
Rhea, that is to say, handout with your roommates, or did you have
enough money then to pay your fair share?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; I paid my fair share as long as I was——

Mr. HUBERT. So when you are talking about the handouts——

Mr. SENATOR. The handouts is when I was completely out.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have any employment at all?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I was completely out.

Mr. HUBERT. That was for about a year, year and a half?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say about a year and a half at a rough guess.

Mr. HUBERT. When did that begin and when did that end, that year and a
half? Let’s look at it this way: You were not working at the time you
were living with Ruby, were you, that is to say you were not making any
money?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You were not contributing?

Mr. SENATOR. No. Ruby gave me handouts.

Mr. HUBERT. That is right?

Mr. SENATOR. Certainly.

Mr. HUBERT. So that is a year and a half back from November of 1963, is
it not, roughly?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I was with this Volume Sales like you mentioned before.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I was with them. Now, I was with Volume for maybe about 9
months, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s take the time that you were with Corbat. Was that on
a handout basis too, or did you pay your fair share then?

Mr. SENATOR. No; with Corbat I paid him very little. I’ll tell you when
I paid him very little, though. I paid him very little when I first
moved in with him, because I had no money.

Mr. HUBERT. And then you got——

Mr. SENATOR. Then when I moved, when I was able to a little, we went on
a 50-50 basis.

Mr. HUBERT. That is when you moved to South Ewing?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Which was in August of 1962?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you making money at that time?

Mr. SENATOR. The cards. My half of the rent was $62.50 a month and his
half. In other words, it ran about $15 a week, approximately.

Mr. HUBERT. And you earned enough to pay your half by selling postcards?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I was in the postcards.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what business? What company is that?

Mr. SENATOR. Texas Postcard & Novelty Co.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with them?

Mr. SENATOR. I was sales manager, whatever that means.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with them?

Mr. SENATOR. August of 1962 until November of 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. What part of November?

Mr. SENATOR. The latter part of November.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you ceased your employment with them after Oswald
was shot?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is when I fell apart with the incident.

Mr. HUBERT. What were you making then?

Mr. SENATOR. $75 a week, but $61.45, that is my actual draw.

Mr. HUBERT. That was your actual draw?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. In cash?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Roughly $250 a month?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you paid your half of the rent with Corbat?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; $15 a week, $16 a week, or whatever it was.

Mr. HUBERT. And then when you lost that employment—just a minute;
you had not lost that employment at the time you moved in with Ruby,
because you say that that employment——

Mr. SENATOR. No, no, no; you mean prior to——

Mr. HUBERT. To the shooting.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You were still working with them?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were still drawing that pay?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you mean when you said a little while ago that you
were on a handout basis with Ruby since you were making $250?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I am referring to the first time.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see.

Mr. SENATOR. That was in 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. You were living in another place?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; in 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. But with reference to the last time you lived with Ruby;
that is to say, commencing the beginning of November of 1963?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You were——

Mr. SENATOR. I was under pressure those 2 months because the rent—you
know, when you switch from $62.50 to $125 you are going broke.

Mr. HUBERT. From the time you left Corbat until you moved with Ruby——

Mr. SENATOR. I struggled for the 2 months, and Jack Ruby said to move
in, so I moved in.

Mr. HUBERT. And were you supposed to pay any part?

Mr. SENATOR. With Jack, no.

Mr. HUBERT. The arrangement was that you were not to pay anything?

Mr. SENATOR. I wasn’t to pay, but you know I would help him. I would
help him Fridays and Saturdays, or once in a while I would pop up
during a week night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you something to get it straight about this
Rhea Manufacturing Co.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did they do? What did they make?

Mr. SENATOR. They manufacture dresses and sportswear.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I notice your social security earnings record with Smoler
Bros., that there seemed to be times regularly where you did not report
any earnings from them, or they did not report any payments to you I
should say, to be more accurate. Was there something seasonal about
that business with Smoler Bros.?

Mr. SENATOR. The type business?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; every season wasn’t good. In other words, let me
put it this way: When you get down to the latter part of the year,
you know, see, we are more so of a cotton housecoat, not a housecoat
but a cotton dress. You have seen these women wear these inexpensive
cotton dresses. They look like plaid variations. Well, this wasn’t a
big factor at that time of the year. In other words, our spring and our
summer was the best for us as far as selling goes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the spring and the summer were you selling for the
spring and summer seasons, or were you selling in the spring and summer
for the following season?

Mr. SENATOR. Let me explain it this way: I’m certain we are both on the
right track, but let me explain it this way. In other words, we will
start in May. In May your fall lines come out, see, come out, and you
start selling them in May. Some of them sell them in April, even. It
all depends who the manufacturer is and how fast they put them out.
Then your spring line—let’s see, from the fall line your spring line
will come out in, I think it’s August, August of the year.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if we cannot get it this way. You never actually
ceased your employment with Smoler’s at any time until the final time?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, there are periods from these reports that we have in
which Smoler’s apparently did not report any earnings for you. What we
want to know, is: Is it a fact that you did not earn anything during
that period or did not even draw during that period, or have you any
explanation for the reason that Smoler’s apparently did not report any
earnings for you during several years in a row for certain quarters,
seemingly for the third and fourth quarter of each year, and why would
that be?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you always on a draw right along?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there some periods during each year when you did not
earn your draw?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes: there were many times I didn’t earn my draw.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything seasonal about that? Were there certain
times of the year when you were working when it regularly happened that
you did not earn your draw?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What times of the year did that tend to be when you did
not earn your draw?

Mr. SENATOR. I cannot base it on any particular time or periods, but
there were many times, especially when you get chopped down a bit on
your loans. I have never made what you call any big money with them. I
was always, I would imagine, hitting probably around my draw part, or
there may have been times when I fell even behind.

Mr. HUBERT. I want to get to the time when you first met Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, I have a couple of questions. I would like to
clear up on some much earlier stuff before you get to that.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. First of all, where is Gloversville, N.Y.? What part of
New York State is that?

Mr. SENATOR. Are you familiar with Albany?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. You are familiar with Schenectady?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. How about Amsterdam?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if I am not, if you tell us where it is.

Mr. SENATOR. I haven’t been there in so many years I may not have the
right direction now. All I know is I am trying to figure what the
locality is. It is 30 miles from Schenectady. In other words, it is off
the beaten path a bit from your main lines.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is upstate New York?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I would probably say in the locale of the foothills
of the Adirondacks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I perhaps did not catch this, but there was a period
in 1947 when you went to work in New Hampshire?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you go to New Hampshire?

Mr. SENATOR. I needed a job.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go there?

Mr. SENATOR. The man who was running the Red Rooster—what was the name
of it again?

Mr. HUBERT. The Hensroost.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the Hensroost; he was up there for the summer. So he
got me a job up there for the summer. That was another time when I was
very much in need of a job. The type of work that I did up there, they
had a little place where the help used to come in, you know, to eat or
drink or buy cigars, separation from the guest part. This is the part I
worked, made them hamburgers or whatever it may be of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I do not have anything else, Mr. Hubert, if you want to go
on.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, as I understand it, it was in May of 1954, almost 10
years ago, that you moved to Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How soon after moving to Dallas did you meet Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say it may have been—I would say approximately
about within a year or approximately about a year; I’m not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not know him prior to moving to Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; I had never heard of Jack Ruby before in my life.

Mr. HUBERT. You think it would be somewhere in 1955 that you first met
him?

Mr. SENATOR. I would even say in 1955 or early 1956. I mean give or
take a few.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us the circumstances under which you met him.

Mr. SENATOR. How I met him?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I was with a friend of mine one day. We went over to—I am
certain you heard of the Vegas Club in Dallas?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. That is where, you know—at that time this is all Jack Ruby
had was the Vegas Club and this is where I met him casually. Never seen
him before, and I was introduced to Jack Ruby like I guess anybody else
walked in, Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; now, starting from then, would you tell us how
your friendship or acquaintance developed?

Mr. SENATOR. I have seen Jack; I have met Jack here or there, you know;
it can be in a restaurant or whatever it might be or a luncheonette or
something like that. I have met him many times. I have seen him, “Hi,
George”; “Hi, Jack, how are you?”

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the Vegas Club frequently after that first
meeting?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; very, very seldom, very seldom, and the only time
that I really got close to Jack was about 2 years ago. Always previous
to that it has always been, “Jack, how are you?” wherever I met him;
having coffee, he always offered to buy me something to eat.

Mr. HUBERT. You describe your relationship with Jack up to 2 years ago
as casual?

Mr. SENATOR. Strictly casual, like I’d meet any other friend anywhere
else.

Mr. HUBERT. It could hardly be called friendship as it ultimately
developed, in any case.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I respected him; he respected me. We talked nice.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not go to the Vegas very much?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t go to the Vegas very much.

Mr. HUBERT. At the time you indicated that there was a change in that
casual relationship to something else 2 years ago.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what brought that about?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. (Brief recess.)

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Senator, we have had about a 10-minute recess. You
understand, of course, that we are continuing this deposition by the
same authority and under the same conditions which I stated to you at
the very beginning of it, and further that you are under the same oath
that you were prior to the recess. Is that agreeable with you? You
understand that?

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t lie because I didn’t bring a lawyer with me.

Mr. HUBERT. What?

Mr. SENATOR. I said I am not lying because I didn’t bring a lawyer with
me.

Mr. HUBERT. So that the record may be clear on the point, I want to see
if I understand your last remark. Does it indicate that you wish to
have a lawyer?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I just wanted to get it straight.

Mr. SENATOR. I say that I didn’t come here to lie; so I don’t need a
lawyer.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, now we are at the point about 2 years ago when
a casual relationship which you have described with Ruby changed into
something else. Why don’t you just tell us about that in your own words?

Mr. SENATOR. All right. I mentioned before Volume Sales. When I got
through with Volume Sales I was unemployed again, and I used to jump up
to Jack’s place, his other place, which is the Carousel. Previous to
that there was the Sovereign Club, a private club. On rare occasions I
used to go up there and we started getting a little more friendly.

Mr. HUBERT. That was about 2 years ago or prior to that?

Mr. SENATOR. No; that was while I was still with Volume Sales. In other
words, that was, I would say, approximately about 2½ years ago. I used
to go up to the Sovereign Club; you know it is a private club; they
don’t let you in normally, but he used to let me in to watch the show.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember actually when that opened?

Mr. SENATOR. Which?

Mr. HUBERT. The Sovereign.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when it changed from the Sovereign to the
Carousel?

Mr. SENATOR. I wasn’t around for the change, but I would say that it
was over 2 years ago. Now just how much over, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you concur in the suggestion that it would be
approximately Christmas of 1961, which would be about 2 years and 5 or
6 months?

Mr. SENATOR. That it changed to the Carousel?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t quote that. I couldn’t even quote it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can I interrupt you here Mr. Hubert? How did you happen to
come to terminate your employment with Volume Sales?

Mr. SENATOR. You have got to know the man. He is a hard guy to work
for. He was really a tough guy to work for. You see, No. 1, he is a
salesman himself, and he is a pretty shrewd salesman, and he had Volume
Sales, which were novelty, sort of novelty and gift item type things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of things?

Mr. SENATOR. Novelties? Well that would be variations. In other words,
you probably have seen these little things with different sayings on
them. Remember the little miniature loving cups with the different
sayings on them? Things of this nature, and other gag items and key
chains and little bar sets and little weather sets and things of that
nature, and funny matches. Just a variation of those things of that
nature. And when I traveled for him and I’d get back to town, he would
knock me off $50. In others words, my draw wasn’t stable with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first started to visit the Sovereign Club, as you
say Jack would let you in, I take it you didn’t have membership in the
Sovereign Club?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because I think at the Sovereign Club I probably
attended that place maybe three or four times or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Mr. Ruby running the same kind of shows at the
Sovereign Club that he later had at the Carousel?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; he was running acts, you know, he had acts,
singers or dancers or comedians, something of that nature you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have striptease performance?

Mr. SENATOR. No; the Sovereign; no; there were no strippers when he had
the Sovereign Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you familiar with the other nightclubs in town when
Mr. Ruby had the Sovereign Club?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I knew some of them; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you visit any of those?

Mr. SENATOR. On rare occasions; yes. I couldn’t afford them, number
one. I was never a member because I couldn’t afford membership. I
wasn’t making that kind of money. But I’d either go up with a friend
who was a member or something of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there something about the Sovereign Club that was more
attractive to you than some of the other clubs?

Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly; no. It is just that I knew Jack and
Jack said like he said a thousand times to many people. First of all
the Carousel of course is a $2 admission. But many people would say
“Come on up, be my guest,” free admission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any other nightclub operators in town at the
time Jack was running the Sovereign Club and letting you in?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, normally on getting into clubs I would probably go
in with a friend who was a member. You probably know the Kings Club and
the Adolphus don’t you or you heard of it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; for example did you know the manager of the Theatre
Lounge?

Mr. SENATOR. As of recent?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Back there when you were going to the Sovereign Club and
Jack would let you in.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I knew who the owner was but I didn’t know the
manager, who the manager was at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know Abe Weinstein?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; I don’t know him that well. I know who he is, I
know him casually.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you visited his clubs?

Mr. SENATOR. On very rare occasions. Abe’s place I have probably been
up maybe as long as I have been in Dallas, if I have been up there four
times I have been up there a lot, if I have been up there that many
times.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; now we had progressed to the point where your
casual relationship with Jack Ruby had developed into a little more
than that commencing roughly about 2½ years ago when you began to go
to the Sovereign Club. I think you went there about four or five times
before it changed to the Carousel. But you have previously mentioned
that about 2 years ago something happened that changed this improving
relationship let’s say in the sense that you got to know each other
better, so that you could be called friends then. Something happened
you said about 2 years ago, and that is what I want you to take it from
there.

Mr. SENATOR. When I got through with Volume Sales I was unemployed
again. In other words, I was down again. So Jack Ruby is of a nature,
he will help somebody. Rather he has to feed them or give them a place
to sleep or something of this nature, this is when he took me in when
he knew I was broke. He said “George you can stay with me.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him you were broke or did he find out from
another source?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I told him I was down.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask to go in with him?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I’ll tell you why. I don’t think I did. At that time
Jack was changing over and he had some pretty rough times. He had
changed over from this Sovereign Club. Now how rough he had it there
I don’t know because I wasn’t intimate with him at that time, that
intimate. And he went into this burlesque business.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the Carousel you mean?

Mr. SENATOR. The Carousel and he was bucking somebody who had never
been bucked before. That is the Weinstein brothers who owned the
Theatre Lounge and the Colony Club and who have had the monopoly of
that type nature of business for many, many years. Now, for him to buck
them he has really got something to buck.

Mr. HUBERT. So he was having difficulties and you were too?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; originally I was sleeping at the club and so was he.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he didn’t have an apartment at all?

Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t have an apartment at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did that situation go on?

Mr. SENATOR. It didn’t last too long, because as business started to
pick up some he was sleeping, he had his own room in the club and he
had a fold-out bed that I could sleep on and I slept there for awhile.

Mr. HUBERT. So that originally when Jack took you in, as it were, to
assist you, he took you in at the club, and not into any apartment
which he then had?

Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t have an apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what I say.

Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t have an apartment at that time. But he was
always good in feeding somebody if they were down and out.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he gave you cash?

Mr. SENATOR. Either that or he gave me a little cash for spending money
or he would just take me.

Mr. HUBERT. Just do what?

Mr. SENATOR. Take me to eat, you know, when he went to eat. He’d pay
for my laundry or have my suit pressed, things of that nature.

Mr. HUBERT. But then he did get an apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. He got an apartment but I don’t remember just how long
after that.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case when he got an apartment you moved into that
apartment with him?

Mr. SENATOR. See I am a little blank on one point there. I just don’t
remember how the outcome was when he moved out of there into the
apartment. I can’t remember just how long I stayed up at the club with
him. It wasn’t too long, though. I don’t remember how long. But anyhow
he got this apartment on South Ewing.

Mr. HUBERT. On South Ewing?

Mr. SENATOR. No; Marsalis.

Mr. HUBERT. And then you moved in with him right away?

Mr. SENATOR. Then I went in with him. Now I don’t remember if I went
in with him—I don’t remember how I went in with him. I can’t place it
together but I know I was there.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have to pay any rent?

Mr. SENATOR. No; but I helped him in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Now when you helped him in the club, what did you do? What
kind of work did you do at the club?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I sort of ran the lights for him for awhile and I’d
take cash for him.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean that is on the front door?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; on the front door.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the $2 admission charge?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is right.

Mr. HUBERT. And what other jobs did you do?

Mr. SENATOR. Whatever errands he wanted me to do during the course
of the daytime, if he wanted me to pick up something here or pick
up something there or buy something that he needed for the club, go
shopping and things of that nature, whatever it might be.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t do the clean-up jobs?

Mr. SENATOR. No. He had a clean-up boy.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was he?

Mr. SENATOR. His name was Andrew Armstrong I believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he there when you first went there?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He was with Jack quite awhile. He was with Jack, I
think he was with Jack before I was there, yes, and he was there until
the time the club closed down.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you travel around with Jack during this period when you
were unemployed and he was helping you out and you were helping him out
by doing errands and so forth? I mean when you got up in the morning
did you both go together? Did you move together or how was it?

Mr. SENATOR. It all depends. First of all he slept pretty good. He
slept pretty late. He liked to sleep. And he used to get up in the
afternoon and mess around, sit around the apartment. If the weather
was right, I mean if it happened to be summertime, he is a great fan
for swimming. Or he’d just mope around the place or hang around the
apartment house.

Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is whether your helping him out
at the club was a regular thing or just done once in a while.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I was doing it regularly. As long as he was keeping me
up, I had to do something, see.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what I had in mind.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the club at the same time that he did?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave at the same time that he did?

Mr. SENATOR. I would leave when he left.

Mr. HUBERT. Because you were both going back to the same house?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What about going there? You went earlier?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; I left earlier. In other words he could sit in
the apartment longer than I could.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you normally go to work then?

Mr. SENATOR. He would always make me go in in early, somewheres around
between 7 and 8. He wanted me to see that things were set up.

Mr. HUBERT. You never had to go in midafternoon though?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; unless if we did go in midafternoon, which was
rare, probably maybe to feed the dogs or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Who took care of the reservations and all other matters of
that sort?

Mr. SENATOR. Andrew.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did Andrew get there?

Mr. SENATOR. Andrew was there; Andrew would come there somewhere around
1 o’clock in the afternoon. See Andrew lived there for a short while
too after we had left. He was staying there. And then I think he got
married or something like that. But Andrew was with him about 2 years I
guess, maybe a little longer.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already covered the next stage, and that
was when you got a job and also you were disgusted with the conditions
and so you moved in with Corbat?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now during the period that you lived with Corbat, which
would have been, as I remember it, from August of 1962 until August of
1963—is that right?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your relationship with Jack then?

Mr. SENATOR. August of 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. That is when you moved out of Jack’s apartment and took up
with Corbat.

Mr. SENATOR. I always went to see him. I always used to come up there.
At rare times I would help him at the door.

Mr. HUBERT. But you had a job then?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. But I would go up there and I would help him at the
door, things of that kind.

Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, he for a good part of that period
he actually lived in the South Ewing Apartments where you lived with
Corbat, is that right?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. We moved there practically the same time; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that in spite of the fact that you broke up the domestic
establishment that you had, there was no ill feeling between you.

Mr. SENATOR. Never, no, no. We have never had any ill feeling. We got
along excepting when he hollered at me.

Mr. HUBERT. Well we will get to that. In this new job which you had
when you were living with Corbat did you have to use an automobile?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; a wagon.

Mr. HUBERT. A station wagon?

Mr. SENATOR. Volkswagen, one of those box things, what do you call them?

Mr. GRIFFIN. One of those Volkswagen microbuses?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it a passenger car?

Mr. SENATOR. No; it is one of these solid enclosures. It looks like a
box, you know. I don’t know what you call them.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it to hold goods you were displaying?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right; but there was no windows to it except in
the back, the back part.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it your car or did it belong to the company?

Mr. SENATOR. It was the company.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say you continued to go to the Carousel from time
to time. How often about, just roughly?

Mr. SENATOR. Two or three times a week. It all depends.

Mr. HUBERT. And you would help there?

Mr. SENATOR. Not always. Sometimes I would, sometimes I wouldn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. If you helped did he pay you?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I did it because I still remember what he has done for
me when I was down and out, and it wasn’t that many hours or it wasn’t
difficult labor or anything of that nature. But I still remembered the
things he did for me, when I was down and out.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then I think we have covered the time when
Corbat left and you lost your job and found that you were down and out
and again you moved into his apartment then, giving up the apartment
next door.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he invite you in then or did you ask him?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he invited me. He knew I was pressed.

Mr. HUBERT. And you had to give up the automobile at that time?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I had the automobile until January.

Mr. HUBERT. The fact is I think you told us that you were working with
these people until after Oswald was shot?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But at the stress of the——

Mr. SENATOR. But the stresses.

Mr. HUBERT. The stress of having to carry the whole apartment when
Corbat left was one of the factors that put pressure upon you, is that
right?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it is the pressure of the extra amount of money.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not own an automobile of your own I take it?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, when I was traveling the road; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time you owned an automobile?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know, it must have been about 4 or 5 years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind was it?

Mr. SENATOR. I think the last one I had was, I think it was a Buick.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you sell it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t remember if I sold it or traded it in.

Mr. HUBERT. You traded it in for what?

Mr. SENATOR. I had a Buick once. I mean I had a few Buicks. When I say
a few I mean there might have been about 3, and I had a Ford once I
believe.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case you haven’t owned a car of your own for about 4
or 5 years?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And the last car you owned you must have sold it I suppose.
You couldn’t have traded it in because then you would have gotten a new
car.

Mr. SENATOR. I am trying to think what was I doing with the last car. I
think the last car, I think I lost it on payments. I couldn’t keep up
the payments if I am not mistaken, if that is the one. I think that is
it. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt a second to clarify one thing in my mind.
You mentioned this Volkswagen. The last time you had it was in January?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what year?

Mr. SENATOR. 1964.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Just a couple of months ago?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Coming to the first part of November 1963, was that when
you moved in with Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I believe it was somewhere around the 1st or 2d of
November, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Then I suppose you went back to the routine of the general
mode of living and working with him that had existed before?

Mr. SENATOR. No; then I was helping him, I mean I was staying with
him, so I was helping him on weekends. Once in a while I would pop in
maybe on a weekday.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your operation——

Mr. SENATOR. Just at the door.

Mr. HUBERT. Your operation insofar as the Carousel is concerned was not
like it was before?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Not on a daily basis?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Just at night, not every night?

Mr. SENATOR. Normally I would come in on Friday and Saturday.

Mr. HUBERT. But you were still at your job?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; after all I was staying there and felt he was
entitled to something, you know, so I’d come in there and help him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you assist in the cooking or anything of that sort?

Mr. SENATOR. There was no food. The only food there was, they make
pizzas once in a while.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t mean at the Carousel, I mean at the house, the
apartment.

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; but I couldn’t cook right for him. He is a funny
guy in cooking.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do any cooking there at all?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. If I don’t broil right for him, if I make him eggs,
it has got to be so much of this in the butter because he was watching
his diet, and I got so tired of it I says, “Make your own eggs.” You
just couldn’t make anything right for him. And all meats had to be
broiled. He don’t believe in fried stuff. And he was just hard to cook
for.

Mr. HUBERT. The routine then I suppose is that you were working and
you would come back to the apartment after normal working hours, which
would be around when, 5 or 6 in the evening?

Mr. SENATOR. To cook for him? That would be rare. I got away from that.

Mr. HUBERT. I am getting to the normal routine as to your relationship.
You had a regular working day I take it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Which started off at 8 or so in the morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And ended up at 5 or 6 in the evening? He, on the other
hand, would be sleeping in the morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And I understand would leave the apartment after you got
back at night or before, as a normal thing?

Mr. SENATOR. It wasn’t always necessarily that I came home between 5
and 6 because many times I stayed out.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any kind of a pattern at all to your living in
point of time?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; there is no particular pattern.

Mr. HUBERT. What about weekends? Was that different?

Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly. First of all I always get up before
he does, whether I am working or otherwise.

Mr. HUBERT. You would help him at the club?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. On weekends and if you did I suppose you came back about
the same time he did?

Mr. SENATOR. At night? Yes. But as far as I getting up in the morning,
I always got up much earlier than he did. It was just natural. It was
natural for me to get up, and it doesn’t make any difference what
particular time I went to bed at 2, 3, 4 or 5, I am of that nature that
I get up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your regular rising time?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say 7, 7:30, sometimes 6 in the morning. A lot of
times it would probably depend what time I go to bed. If I go to bed at
10 o’clock at night I probably wake up at 5 or 5:30 in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. What about on weekends?

Mr. SENATOR. On weekends? Say like a Sunday. I would probably wake up
at 7:30 or 8 o’clock in the morning on Sunday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has it been your habit when you get up in the morning you
make yourself a breakfast or what do you do?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I will tell you, when I wake up in the morning I want
coffee, but I don’t have that appetite in the morning when I get up. It
is very rare that I will eat the moment I wake up in the morning. But I
get hungry maybe an hour or two later or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So on a working day would you go to work, grab a cup of
coffee and go to work?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; on working days I go downtown and have my coffee.
I don’t even make it there. Never. I don’t sit there and make coffee in
the morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular place that you eat at regularly?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where?

Mr. SENATOR. I had a hangout. The Eat Well. There is three places that
I normally went to. Eat Well, I always went there every morning, even
on Sunday, and then the Chefette. Down where the Chefette is in the
Hotel Adolphus and then the Walgren also in the Hotel Adolphus. Those
are the three places I normally was always in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any regular place where you ate lunch?

Mr. SENATOR. No; there is no particular—I mean I don’t pick my spot
where I eat lunch.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you do about dinners?

Mr. SENATOR. Dinners I normally would like to go home, for meal, but I
ate more when I was living with Stan or by myself than I did with Jack,
because I just can’t cook of his nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack in the habit of coming home for dinner?

Mr. SENATOR. A lot of times, yes; and then I would probably say maybe;
on rare occasions, no. It wasn’t necessarily that he had to be home for
dinner because there were many times he also ate out. But he was hard
on food, even at a restaurant he was not easy. It had to be so-so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did the shopping?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack did the shopping. I couldn’t do no shopping. I can’t
shop for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So Jack in effect would buy the meat for the meals and he
would plan the meals? Is that the idea? Then you would cook them?

Mr. SENATOR. He would buy what would suit himself, and if I didn’t like
it that is too bad.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a regular routine of going to a grocery store
once a week and going shopping for a week or how did it work?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say something like that. Of course, it
all depends, you know, how much he is buying, how much he is going to
buy. But he always had a lot of meat. He always kept his refrigerator
pretty well filled. He’d buy grapefruits, half a grapefruit and
grapefruit juice like crazy. Holy God, you know he’d wake up in the
morning, the number one thing was that grapefruit. If he bought
grapefruit which he’d normally buy 6, 8, 10 of them at a clip, he would
cut up about 2 of them, 2 at once mind you, and put them through the
wringer and wring them down, you know, the machine he had home and
drink solid grapefruit juice, but from 2 of them, 2 whole grapefruits,
unless he had the frozen grapefruits which he diluted with water. This
is number one before he did anything, the grapefruit bit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this pattern prevail both when you were living with
him the first time and when you were living with him the second time?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or was there some difference in your relationship?

Mr. SENATOR. No; there was no difference. His way of living was set
before I ever heard of Jack Ruby, his way of eating.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He would do all the shopping? Who would decide on any
particular evening what the meal was going to be?

Mr. SENATOR. I had no say. I had no say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he call you in advance to let you know when he was
coming back for dinner?

Mr. SENATOR. No; no call; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you do? Did you have a time when you liked to
eat, if Jack wasn’t there that you would?

Mr. SENATOR. If he wasn’t there then I’d help myself or even if I made
a couple of eggs or whatever it might be. Sure, I mean there was no
particular time that I had to sit down and eat with him, because if I
wasn’t there he ain’t waiting for me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you felt like eating dinner, would you go into the
icebox and pull out a steak and make some potatoes and do what you
wanted to do?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; sure, sure. If he wasn’t there, look, I am not going
to sit there and wait for him, you know. And he certainly isn’t sitting
there waiting for me, because I probably don’t know what time he is
going to be home and he probably doesn’t know what time I am going to
be home or sometimes we may be there together. But there was no set
pattern. There was no particular time.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from all this, from the fact that your
acquaintanceship with Ruby ripened into friendship, and ripened further
in the fact that you were sharing an apartment together, that you got
to know the man pretty well as a man, and knew his habits?

Mr. SENATOR. I knew something about them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. His likes and dislikes. You expressed an opinion about
that already and that is what I would like to get to now with reference
to particular areas. You have mentioned the question of dogs, and I
would like you to tell us about what you know of him with reference to
dogs and his attitude towards them and so forth.

Mr. SENATOR. He had enough of them.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from that you mean he had plenty of them?

Mr. SENATOR. He had a few dogs.

Mr. HUBERT. All the time that you have known him was that so or when
did that begin?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I don’t know when it began because he had dogs the
first time that I got close to him or acquainted with him.

Mr. HUBERT. That is about 2½ years ago?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know anything about the dogs?

Mr. SENATOR. Previous to that I didn’t know anything about dogs before.

Mr. HUBERT. I guess the number of dogs varied, didn’t it?

Mr. SENATOR. It happened to be why he had so many dogs, his dog Sheba,
who was attacked by one of Sheba’s sons at a later date, gave birth to
six at one time. What are you going to do? He had dogs.

Mr. HUBERT. So he kept them.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He didn’t want to give them away.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did he keep them?

Mr. SENATOR. They were born in the apartment. He had them in the
kitchen until they were old enough, you know, whatever age that they
might be, a month or two, and then he brought them down to the club
and he puts them way in the back room of the club. He used to bring
everybody in “See my dogs.” Of course, his pet was Sheba, which
everybody in this country knows.

Mr. HUBERT. She was the mother?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that was the mother of the whole crew. So he wound up
with——

Mr. HUBERT. Did Sheba stay at the club or at his house?

Mr. SENATOR. Both. Jack goes to the club, Sheba goes with him.

Mr. HUBERT. Sheba was always with him?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this was the only one. I would say on rare occasions
he would probably bring the other dog home or two, just overnight.

Mr. HUBERT. He gave some of the dogs away didn’t he?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Jack had close to 10 dogs. He had about 9 or 10 dogs.
Don’t forget Sheba had six at one clip.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his attitude towards these animals? Was it a
normal attitude that people have to dogs?

Mr. SENATOR. I know people have mentioned it to me before in the past
and the quotations that I have heard though I have never heard them
from him though I have heard them otherwise like “My family” or “My
wife.” I have read these. I am certain everybody else has too or heard
it. But he liked dogs. To me this has no meaning. To me it has no
meaning when he says this.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear these comments made by other people concerning
Ruby and his dogs prior to the shooting or afterwards?

Mr. SENATOR. What?

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the shooting or afterwards?

Mr. SENATOR. Prior I don’t recollect. I don’t say—it had to be prior
to. No; it had to be prior.

Mr. HUBERT. You have read perhaps a lot about the dogs——

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Since the shooting?

Mr. SENATOR. I heard somebody mention once that he went up to see his
Rabbi Silverman who I am certain you probably heard of I guess, and I
don’t know if he had two or three dogs with him or what it was. I’m not
sure of the words he used but I think he said to the Rabbi “I want you
to meet my family” or something like that. There was a quotation he
used. Now this may have been it, I’m not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there other people that you remember who commented to
you about Ruby and his dogs? You have mentioned one. That is that he
was——

Mr. SENATOR. I heard two things already. One was “my family” and one
was “my wife,” which absolutely has——

Mr. HUBERT. Both of those you heard prior to the time Jack went to jail?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; these were prior to it, but when I heard it it was
after, see.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. You mean that the remarks were made prior?

Mr. SENATOR. The remarks were made after, that is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Wait a while, let me get that straight, the remarks were
made after?

Mr. SENATOR. After.

Mr. HUBERT. But the occurrences were supposed to have, the facts were
supposed to have occurred prior?

Mr. SENATOR. Prior. Right. Prior I never heard.

Mr. HUBERT. You do not remember having heard anything prior to the
shooting?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your own opinion as to his attitude toward these
animals?

Mr. SENATOR. Like any other human being who had a dog for a number of
years.

Mr. HUBERT. There was nothing abnormal about it?

Mr. SENATOR. Nothing. To me, there was nothing absolutely abnormal
about it. Just like anybody else having a dog, and I am certain anybody
who has a dog he has had about 5, 6 or 7 or 8 years who is very much
attached to him. I would probably say the overall picture of the
majority owners are attached to a particular dog of whatever the dog
may be.

Mr. HUBERT. There is some rumor if you want to call it that that at
some time or another Jack had a strange sort of relationship with one
of the dogs. Have you any comment to make on that?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t listen to that stuff because it is not true.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you never saw anything of that sort yourself?

Mr. SENATOR. Never, never, and I tell you this from my heart.

Mr. HUBERT. From your knowledge of Ruby and his relationship with the
dog, do you think that that is likely or unlikely?

Mr. SENATOR. What?

Mr. HUBERT. From your knowledge of Ruby and of his relationship with
those animals do you think that such a story is likely or unlikely?

Mr. SENATOR. That he would have?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No; that is so far-fetched I don’t believe in that stuff.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you be a little bit more explicit about why you feel
that way?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I feel that I have been around him enough to see him
pet the dog, and I pet the dog many times. I picked up the dog many
times like anybody else has picked up a dog and just scratched him on
the head but I have never seen an incident like this, at no time.

Mr. HUBERT. What about his interest in physical culture and keeping
himself in good shape? There have been some reports about that but you
are in a position perhaps to give us further details about it.

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he loves to swim, and when he gets into a pool he
can really go from one end to the other and go, because I heard it
mentioned one time he said “George you know I used to be able to swim
2 or 3 miles” which I would probably say is a pretty good distance. I
know I can’t do anything like that, or nowheres near it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he do any ice skating?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, we were ice skating once.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he good at it?

Mr. SENATOR. He was good because—I’ll tell you why he was good, because
he had never been on ice skates before.

Mr. HUBERT. You just know of one occasion he had been on ice skates?

Mr. SENATOR. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. You just know of one occasion that he was on ice skates?

Mr. SENATOR. I was with him and a group of people one time. They asked
me to go, too, and did I suffer.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the first time he had been, too, to your knowledge?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if that was the first time we had been. I
mean I was only there one time. That was over at the fair ground in
Dallas, but he had been I think twice. And the people who he was with,
you know, we had some of the show folks there of the help, the people
who worked there, thought he did very well for a man who had never been
on ice skates, including his age.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he take any regular exercise so far as you knew?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; his dumbbells. He didn’t do them every day but he
did them quite often. Not the dumbbells; what do you call the things,
weightlifters.

Mr. HUBERT. Weightlifting equipment?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He had them in the house?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he exercised and very frequently he used to go to the
YMCA which he went for quite a long while. He has gone to the Y before
I ever knew him or even became acquainted with him.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his general physical condition?

Mr. SENATOR. Excellent.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he a powerful man?

Mr. SENATOR. A powerful man?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I’ll tell you, I won’t want to get rapped by him.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever heard of any of his episodes in which he
tangled with people?

Mr. SENATOR. I have never had the pleasure—I can’t say pleasure. I have
never really witnessed a battle with him. Now I have seen him poke a
couple of people.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean between him and other people.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have seen him poke a couple people.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about those, would you?

Mr. SENATOR. Take for instance in the club. All right, here is a man
who is of a temperament you know, he is a temperament man. He has a
temper. And I would probably say that he flies off, if you want to
compare us, I am an angel when it comes to flying off compared to him,
because he can go this fast, you know. I mean he can fly off pretty
well. If somebody was hollering or out-of-line or pinch a girl which
happens now and then while the girls are dancing he doesn’t like this.

Mr. HUBERT. You said you remember two specific instances. Could you
just tell us about those.

Mr. SENATOR. I’ll tell you one.

Mr. HUBERT. About where they happened and the time.

Mr. SENATOR. I saw one happen, this was outside of the club, this one.
Do you want it in the club or out of the club?

Mr. HUBERT. Any one.

Mr. SENATOR. This was outside of the club.

Mr. HUBERT. When was it?

Mr. SENATOR. Last year.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time last year?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say it was sometime last summer.

Mr. HUBERT. The summer of 1963?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened.

Mr. SENATOR. I was sitting in the Burgundy Room. You know where the
Burgundy Room is?

Mr. HUBERT. The Adolphus Hotel.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I was in there having a drink and I was sitting with
this fellow here.

Mr. HUBERT. Who, what fellow?

Mr. SENATOR. His name?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Don Taber or Tabin.

Mr. HUBERT. T-a-b-e-r or T-a-b-i-n?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You were with that man?

Mr. SENATOR. I was with him for a while but he shifted. He saw some
girl and went over to talk to her.

Mr. HUBERT. So you were alone at the table?

Mr. SENATOR. I was sitting there. I was sitting at another table and I
assumed he come in looking for me to see what I was doing.

Mr. HUBERT. Who came in?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack Ruby. Jack don’t like to have me drink. He doesn’t
like to see me getting drunk. He thinks I’m always drunk all the while
which I am not. And as he walked in through the door, this Don Taber
was getting pretty well loaded. He had a few drinks in him, you know,
and he has always had a grudge against Jack for some reason or other,
I don’t know what it was, and Jack was always telling him “Don, I want
you to stay away from me” and I have heard him warn him once before by
the club, downstairs from the club. Well, he used a pretty obscene word
with him. I don’t know if you want to take this down or not?

Mr. HUBERT. On the occasion in the Burgundy Room?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; you tell us what happened exactly.

Mr. SENATOR. I think he told him to go “F” yourself.

Mr. HUBERT. Go what?

Mr. SENATOR. Do you want me to use the word?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. He told him to go —— himself.

Mr. HUBERT. Who told who?

Mr. SENATOR. Don to Jack.

Mr. HUBERT. Told that to Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he is a type, he is a great guy when he is sober but
when he isn’t he is not easy to get along with you know.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean when Jack came in?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Taber or Tabin told him that?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And there had been no previous conversation between them?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because he has always picked on Jack for some reason
or other.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me get the picture. Jack walks into the room and this
man Taber says “Go —— yourself?”

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. To Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened?

Mr. SENATOR. I forgot what Jack says. Jack says something to him. Then
I think there was an answer back or something, I just don’t remember
but all I know is Jack let him have it, hauled off.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he hit him?

Mr. SENATOR. He hit him.

Mr. HUBERT. With his fist or what?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any knucks?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or pistol?

Mr. SENATOR. It was his fist, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened?

Mr. SENATOR. So they got into a little battle.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack knock him down with that first blow?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. So they actually squared off?

Mr. SENATOR. They squared off. It didn’t last long though.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened?

Mr. SENATOR. They stopped it but the other fellow got the worst of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he knocked off his feet?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he a big man, this Taber?

Mr. SENATOR. He was a little taller than I. I believe he was a little
taller than I. But I would probably say he is a chap about maybe around
I would say between 165 and 170 or 175. I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. And how tall?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say he is probably, and I am only guessing, I
would say maybe 5 feet 9 inches or 5 feet 10 inches.

Mr. HUBERT. How big a man is Jack by the way in point of height and
weight?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack I think, is about 5 feet 9 inches.

Mr. HUBERT. And weighed what?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack weighed around 185, somewheres around that, 185.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you consider most of that was bone or muscle or did
he have much fat?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he is 52. I don’t care how you drill yourself, I am
certain there is a certain amount of flab that hangs around the side
which I didn’t dare comment on. If I told him that he didn’t like it.
But still there is a certain amount of flab, but he had a powerful
back. I mean to look at the man’s back at his age, he had a tremendous
back.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he fast with his fists?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say for his age he was.

Mr. HUBERT. When you saw this battle with Taber?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he was pretty fast.

Mr. HUBERT. And he definitely got the best of him?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the other occasion?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, there was one occasion where he hit somebody I
didn’t catch it with my eye but I happened to be there. I was there and
he hit a guy bigger than him. I don’t remember what it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us where that was, in the club?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, it was in the club. It was in the hallway near the
stairs. But it happened to be I didn’t see it because I happened to be
around the side and all I caught is the tail end.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when?

Mr. SENATOR. That was in 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he knock the man off his feet?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. But I know he got the first lick in.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that? He told you?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I heard he always gets the first lick in. He ain’t
going to get hit first if he can help it, if it comes to an argument.

Mr. HUBERT. Is this the opinion that is generally held?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if that is the opinion that is generally held
or not.

Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is how you got it. Is that your
opinion then that he always gets the first lick in?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say so because he is pretty fast for his age.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the provocation for his hitting the fellow at the
club?

Mr. SENATOR. I think this chap here was getting a little loud. I don’t
remember what the incident was. I think he was making a scene there of
some nature.

Mr. HUBERT. Those are the only two occasions that you yourself knew
about from having observed them yourself?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I have seen him push somebody out without hitting him.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen that often?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I don’t say often. I have seen it happen. And when it
has happened, he happened to hold down certain people.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him threaten anybody?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Like throwing them down the stairs?

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard somebody talk about that. Who did I hear? Oh
yes, I’ll tell you where that was quoted. When I was on the witness
stand and Mr. Alexander asked me that.

The question he asked me, if I can quote him, was that he picked on
nothing but small men who were drunk and women who were drunk and beat
them up.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your answer?

Mr. SENATOR. If I recall right, he sort of hollered at me a bit if I
remember right.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did?

Mr. SENATOR. Mr. Alexander.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case what is the truth?

Mr. SENATOR. What did I answer him?

Mr. HUBERT. What you answered I suppose is the truth. What is the truth
as to that question.

Mr. SENATOR. I’ll tell you how I answered him.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, all right; tell us that first.

Mr. SENATOR. I answered him, I said to Jack Ruby, height has nothing to
do with it, or something to that effect if I remember right. It doesn’t
make any difference if the man is bigger than Jack Ruby because that
isn’t going to stop him. Jack Ruby isn’t afraid of height or size,
something like that I answered him.

Mr. HUBERT. That is your opinion now, too?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you base that opinion on what?

Mr. SENATOR. In other words, I base this opinion to say, when I was
asked this question on the witness stand, that all he would do would
beat up people who were smaller than he and who were drunk.

Mr. HUBERT. And you think that is not so?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I say that he doesn’t go according to size. I mean I
know that he doesn’t fear anybody who is taller than he is.

Mr. HUBERT. Now how do you know that? How do you form that opinion
right now?

Mr. SENATOR. How do I form that opinion?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Because I think Jack is of that temperament where size
don’t mean anything to him.

Mr. HUBERT. You just base that upon your general knowledge of the man?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t think he is of the nature who would back off.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him act in what might be considered brutal
in the sense that he went further than he had to go with reference to
anything?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never witnessed any.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know or have you ever heard of an occasion where he
had a fight with a man who bit part of his finger off?

Mr. SENATOR. I haven’t seen it. I mean I see the finger. I have heard
that, yes. How it happened I don’t know. There was some sort of a fight
and the guy bit it. Now what happened I don’t know but I’ve heard that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack ever talk to you about it?

Mr. SENATOR. No; as a matter of fact I have noticed his finger, you
know, I have seen his finger but I never asked him why, because it
happens to be we both got the same type finger. Mine is a paper cut.
His cut much more off than mine.

Mr. HUBERT. He never told you how he lost that part of the finger?

Mr. SENATOR. He told me that he lost it, somebody bit his finger in
a fight. Now I don’t know if it was the Silver Spur or wherever it
happened. I just don’t remember where or how it happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear about him beating up a taxicab man who
came in to fetch a fare, or to collect a fare?

Mr. SENATOR. I have never seen it.

Mr. HUBERT. You have heard about it?

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard about it. I never heard no names or anything
of that. I heard about it but I have never seen it.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you have expressed to us your opinion that Jack is a
man who was not fearful of anyone irrespective of size. Would you give
us your opinion as to whether or not he was the type of man, from all
you know of him, who would be brutal in a fight? By brutal I mean when
he got his man down he would kick him and be sure he was down, kick him
in the groin, in the head or something of that sort?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I couldn’t answer that. I have never
witnessed anything of this nature.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you an opinion?

Mr. SENATOR. You would ask me guess then and if I guessed I wouldn’t
know what I was guessing at.

Mr. HUBERT. I would ask you to guess on the same basis that you
expressed an opinion that he was afraid of nobody.

Mr. SENATOR. He certainly wasn’t afraid of size. In other words, if the
man happened to be 6 inches taller than him he wouldn’t back off.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was formed I think you told us from your general
knowledge.

Mr. SENATOR. That is right. He wouldn’t back off.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your opinion from your general knowledge?

Mr. SENATOR. Now when you ask me about kicking and all that, I mean I
don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. You know the man and that is all I’m asking. Is he the type
of man who would do that in your opinion?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. First of all I don’t think so.
Personally, I don’t think so, but after all I can’t answer for what
another individual would think in his mind. I don’t know, see.

Mr. HUBERT. We understand this is merely your opinion, you see.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t personally think so. I don’t think he would
be that brutal.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw him in this fight with Taber or Tabin?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, but there was no kicking.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you about this. I take it this was not a
prolonged thing. Jack hit him once and that was it?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; there were probably six or eight blows swapped.
But I would say Jack got most of the blows in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And this guy swung. What caused Jack to stop? Did somebody
pull him off?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they stopped it. They stopped it and pulled off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This episode at the Carousel that you saw, you say you
didn’t actually see any blows thrown at the Carousel. You came in at
the tail end of it.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I would say, see, there is an archway; in other words,
it is going up a flight of steps.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. And at the flight of steps the doors open and then there
is a walk in, you know, an archway. It is almost like in a closed
archway which is maybe about 20 or 25 steps. Well, around the =L= shape
of it I didn’t see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell from where you were how many blows were
thrown?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did this last?

Mr. SENATOR. It didn’t last long because there must have been one or
two blows and that was it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody come in and break that up?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what happened. I just don’t remember what
happened there. I think he knocked him down. I’m not sure. I think he
knocked him down with that blow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack accomplish his purpose?

Mr. SENATOR. There was a few people gathered around and the next thing
I think they took him down or something like that. I don’t know. I just
don’t recall what happened on that particular incident but I do know
that something did happen at the time where this fellow I think he was
drunk. I really don’t know if he was. I think he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever talked with Jack about what his attitude is
about using his fists?

Mr. SENATOR. No; this, which I don’t know too much about his youth, it
probably comes from the bringing up of his youth, the poverty that the
family went through. His father was a habitual drunkard, of which I
have heard, and the separations of the family and they lived in a cold
water flat and the only way I’m familiar of something of this nature is
what I have seen in motion pictures of past years of this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want you to tell me now if you think I am wrong. I am
going to suggest this to you and I want to know if this is a fair
evaluation.

Would you say from what you know of Jack that the background that he
came from was such that he had the value that one of the ways you
solved problems is in certain kinds of situations you haul off and
smack the guy, and that this is a tool that people use? Now there are
some people who in their daily life wouldn’t hit anybody because they
don’t think that is a proper thing. Would you say that Jack looked at
this as a tool that was perfectly acceptable to use?

Mr. SENATOR. To tell you the truth if I answered it I don’t even know
if I would be answering it correctly. I would probably say maybe in
certain aspects yes and maybe others no. I really couldn’t answer
correctly. I couldn’t give you a truthful answer on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why is that that you couldn’t give an answer?

Mr. SENATOR. Because I couldn’t, because I can’t think for what the man
thinks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t know that much about him?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To be able to say that?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I would probably say maybe in certain
instances it may happen. Maybe in others it wouldn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask it this way. Knowing Jack Ruby, would you say
that there are situations where Jack would haul off and hit a guy, not
because he was emotionally concerned but because he felt this was the
way to solve the problem at that particular point.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I would probably
say that he would have to be beefed up pretty good about something
before he hit somebody. I would probably say that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the case with the man at the Carousel?

Mr. SENATOR. Apparently the man, which I never saw, apparently he must
have done something wrong. I don’t know what it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But this wasn’t something where he built up a head of
steam on this guy.

Mr. SENATOR. Maybe this is something that just went off
instantaneously. Maybe the guy said something to him which I didn’t
know. Maybe he called him a curse word, you know. I don’t know what it
could have been.

Mr. HUBERT. You have indicated along here in your testimony,
particularly in answer to a question of a little while ago, that he had
a fast temper. I think you said he was a man of temper. I think that
was your phrase?

Mr. SENATOR. Agree.

Mr. HUBERT. And you snapped your fingers and said he would just go like
that.

Mr. SENATOR. He could have a pretty fast temper.

Mr. HUBERT. Now that must be based, that is to say your impression must
be based upon episodes when you witnessed him losing——

Mr. SENATOR. I witnessed him on me, but not hitting me.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about——

Mr. SENATOR. Hollered at me, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about some of the episodes that you saw concerning
yourself or others which indicated to you that he had a fast temper?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, if there should have been discussion about
something, whatever it might be, with me he would make wrong and holler
at me and flare up at me.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by “make wrong”?

Mr. SENATOR. I could never be right with the man, see what I mean? I
couldn’t be right. In other words, if I said black was black he would
say no it is white and that is it.

Mr. HUBERT. And he would do that in a gruff fashion do you think?

Mr. SENATOR. With me? Oh my, you have no idea how many times he has
hollered at me but he’d never lay a hand on me. And the funny thing is
that is how fast he got over it, and he’d forget about it.

Mr. HUBERT. You snapped your fingers again? You mean that he would——

Mr. SENATOR. In other words, when I snapped my fingers I meant he would
get over it that fast from me.

Mr. HUBERT. So, from your own experience there have been innumerable
occasions where he would react toward you in such a way that you would
describe it as anger, manifested——

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Wait a while.

Mr. SENATOR. You would think he was going to hit me but I knew he
wouldn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. This anger being manifested by a loud tone and certain
gestures which would indicate he was going to hit you, but didn’t, and
that you have seen many times, and you also tell us that——

Mr. SENATOR. I have seen it on myself at certain times. Many times with
others, but whatever the thing might be, I mean I don’t know. Like I
told you before, if somebody come up there and pinched a stripper or
something like that, which has happened, man, this would throw him off.
He didn’t like that.

Mr. HUBERT. But you say he would calm down right away?

Mr. SENATOR. He would calm down right away. And he would warn them
“Again, out” and he would put them out. There wouldn’t be any
hesitation. He protected his girls up there, this I’ll tell you, at all
times.

Mr. HUBERT. I want to explore another aspect of this that you have
mentioned, and that is that as quickly as he flared up he seemed to
flare down, if you want me to put it that way, calm down. Can you give
us examples of that?

Mr. SENATOR. I can give you examples of myself on that.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean that following one of these flareups that you have
described?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he would holler at me.

Mr. HUBERT. Then it would be all over.

Mr. SENATOR. He would holler at me and raise the roof at me and then he
would tone down.

Mr. HUBERT. How long would it take?

Mr. SENATOR. A matter of a minute or two.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he wouldn’t brood over it. Having gotten
mad at you he wouldn’t be a brooder. He would change to another subject
and be quite his normal self again?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. See I couldn’t make this man wrong. I can’t make
him wrong, you know. I’m the wrong one. I refer to myself, mind you.
Whatever it might be I can’t be right.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the way he treated you?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To stay in this same general area here, did you know that
Jack owned a pair of knuckles?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when he bought them?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I would probably say that he probably had them before
I was ever close to him. I am only guessing. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you learn that he had them?

Mr. SENATOR. I saw them in a cloth sack once. He carried them in a
cloth sack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he keep that sack?

Mr. SENATOR. No particular place. The one time I saw it, it was home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep anything else in the sack?

Mr. SENATOR. Of course, he had a gun which everybody knows. You see,
Jack’s bank account was his pockets, not the bank but his pockets. That
is where his bank was. And he always carried various sums of money,
which could be $1,500, $2,000, $3,000, $4,000, whatever it might be, in
all different pockets.

Mr. HUBERT. Now before we explore that area further, I want to get a
few generalities concerning Jack. What were his drinking habits? You
shake your head. What does that mean?

Mr. SENATOR. He is not a drinker.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t drink at all?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t drink at all, or very little?

Mr. SENATOR. I wouldn’t say at all but I would probably say if he took
a half dozen drinks a year he took a lot.

Mr. HUBERT. How about smoking?

Mr. SENATOR. No smoking whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his attitude toward women?

Mr. SENATOR. Like any other man.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say any other normal man?

Mr. SENATOR. Any other normal man.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever observed any traits which suggested to you
the possibility of homosexuality?

Mr. SENATOR. Never.

Mr. HUBERT. On his part?

Mr. SENATOR. Never.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any peculiar mannerisms which might have
suggested such a thing to other people, even though it was not so?

Mr. SENATOR. I never noticed it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he lisp?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. So do I.

Mr. HUBERT. Jack has a lisp?

Mr. SENATOR. He has a lisp. He has always had it to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. In your opinion he was not homosexual at all?

Mr. SENATOR. No. Just as normal as any human being.

Mr. HUBERT. He was single.

Mr. SENATOR. He has got a brother older than he is and single, never
been married, Hyman.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any girl friends?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he went out with various girls.

Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at is what you know about his sex
relationships.

Mr. SENATOR. His sex relationship, you know I’m not there to watch
wherever he may be.

Mr. HUBERT. Still you may have some knowledge of facts which would
throw light upon that.

Mr. SENATOR. He likes women.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?

Mr. SENATOR. How do I know he likes women?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I like women.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever tell you that he liked them?

Mr. SENATOR. Did he ever tell me? In any normal conversation I’m
certain anybody here, who doesn’t say they don’t like women. I think
this is a normal thing to say.

Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is simply this. Very naturally
as you pointed out a moment ago, it is very rare that there are any
eyewitnesses to acts of sexual intercourse. On the other hand, there
are other facts and circumstances from which one may judge if a man is
having sexual intercourse with a particular woman, and that is what I
am trying to get at. Do you know of any such things?

Mr. SENATOR. This here I’m never around.

Mr. HUBERT. What?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean when he is having sexual intercourse with a woman?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; of course you wouldn’t be around, but do you have any
opinion as to whether or not he was having any affairs of a sexual
nature with anybody? If you are reticent about naming names, perhaps we
can leave that off.

Mr. SENATOR. I have no names to name, but I am certain that he likes
women. I know he talks to them like I talk to them or anybody else
talks to them.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever bring any to the apartment that you know of?

Mr. SENATOR. I am certain he has had them up for coffee when I have
been there, such as that or a drink or talk, conversation. He has had
even the help up there, you know. Once in a while we have a party. This
is when I turn out to be the cook.

Mr. HUBERT. But you can’t tell us then of any particular person that
you would think Jack had intimate relationships with?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know of any at all that you could even suggest in
your own mind?

Mr. SENATOR. I have seen him talking to many girls but if anything of
that nature I am not around where he don’t want me around.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever ask you to leave, for example, because he was
having some feminine company, or indicate that he was?

Mr. SENATOR. On rare occasions he has said he was going to have some
company or somebody over.

Mr. HUBERT. And he indicated that he wanted you to leave?

Mr. SENATOR. On rare occasions.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the sort of thing I am talking about that would
indicate some factual situations upon which you can base your opinion.
That is what I was speaking of a moment ago when I asked you for facts
and circumstances that would throw light on your opinion, recognizing
fully that normally one never actually is an eyewitness to such a
thing. Do you have any other types of episodes or evidence of that
nature?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his relationship do you think with the girls at
his club, I mean the waitresses?

Mr. SENATOR. The girls in his club? Strictly business, strictly
business.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that if a person said that Jack was on the
make for every one of the girls that worked for him it would be a wrong
statement?

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard that expressed many a time.

Mr. HUBERT. What do you think about that statement?

Mr. SENATOR. It definitely is a wrong statement.

Mr. HUBERT. You never saw it.

Mr. SENATOR. Now what their conversations may be, you know, after all,
he has talked to all the girls in the club at one time or another. What
the conversations are I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. But you never saw anything that would indicate to you in
any way, or heard anything by him that would lead you to the conclusion
that his relationship with any of the girls was of an intimate
character?

Mr. SENATOR. No; if it was, I didn’t know about it.

Mr. HUBERT. What about Jack’s attitude about what his girls did in the
nature of sexual intimacies with other people than himself?

Mr. SENATOR. The girls working in the club?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. You refer to the strippers or the cocktail waitresses?

Mr. HUBERT. I refer to both, and if there is a difference between them
then I would ask you to explain the difference.

Mr. SENATOR. Well, if there was any and he heard about it, I am certain
he would probably yank him out. He didn’t go for that bit.

Mr. HUBERT. Something must have happened that leads you to that
opinion. What is it that leads you to that opinion that he would
certainly have done something about it?

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard him mention that he doesn’t want anybody
outside using any of his girls.

Mr. HUBERT. You yourself have heard him say that?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he don’t want any of his girls going out with
customers. He didn’t want the place to have a reputation such as that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he carry that policy to the point of supervising the
personal lives of his strippers and waitresses beyond the area of
relations with people who were in the club?

Mr. SENATOR. Beyond the area?

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you mentioned a moment ago that he didn’t
want any girls to have any dates or anything with any patrons of the
club or customers.

Mr. SENATOR. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now my next question is did he extend that policy of
supervision of what his girls did to their personal relations with
people who were not patrons of the club?

Mr. SENATOR. That I don’t know. I don’t know about that. I don’t know.
First of all there can never be controllability of that. After all,
where they are, that is their business, wherever they are, whether it
is day or night. This I can’t even answer you.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack sensitive about his religion?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how you know that?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he didn’t like the M.C.’s having any jokes about the
Jewish race, things of that nature. Now I have heard him say so to a
couple of M.C.’s already.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever talk to you personally about it, say anything
to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly. I mean it has always been in the
open. I have even heard him say it right in the club. He don’t want any
Jewish jokes. He was sensitive this way.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think he was overly sensitive on the subject?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I don’t know, overly sensitive, but he was sensitive.

Mr. HUBERT. Is he more sensitive than other Jews that you have known?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say he is; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. With reference to his religion, did he practice it actively?

Mr. SENATOR. As far as going to church, synagogue?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. He went to church; he went to synagogue on holidays.

Mr. HUBERT. That is, Jewish holidays?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; always.

Mr. HUBERT. He wasn’t one who went regularly then to synagogue?

Mr. SENATOR. This I don’t know. I would have to leave this question
because I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you lived with him.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. During the time that you lived with him did he ever
indicate or did you gather that he was a regular churchgoer?

Mr. SENATOR. They go on Friday nights.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see any pattern of his going on Friday nights
regularly?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I have never seen a pattern of it. Now I don’t say
that he has or hasn’t been. Maybe he has at certain times and probably
not on other times. I don’t say this is every Friday night that
he goes, no. I wouldn’t say that. But he does make, you know, the
important holidays.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider him to be a religious man?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how, to tell you the truth, I don’t know how
to break it down for you, how religious he is. Now we never went into
an aspect to talk about just how religious he is. All I can say is that
he observes as to holidays.

Mr. HUBERT. He never told you anything which would indicate that he was
either religious or not religious.

Mr. SENATOR. No. Well, I think he fasts on a certain type holiday.
He fasts, for this kind of fast it is really something, but he does
observe those things.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean not the regular Saturday fast?

Mr. SENATOR. No. This is the one time of the year you fast. You don’t
eat anything for 24 hours. I know he does that.

Mr. HUBERT. I think it is a good time for recess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask one question here. Does he belong to any lay
organizations connected with any of the synagogues in town?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he belonged to them or not. This I can’t
know. But I think he went—it was Temple Emanuel. I don’t know which one
he went to. I think it was Temple Emanuel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge, do you have any knowledge of his ever
participating in any activities, Jewish activities?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. B’nai B’rith?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say maybe in donations or something like
that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than giving money he didn’t belong to the
synagogue’s men’s clubs?

Mr. SENATOR. No, not to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. Supposing we take a recess now until 2 o’clock.

(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the proceeding recessed.)


TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR RESUMED

(The proceeding reconvened at 2 p.m.)

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Senator, we are now continuing the deposition which we
began this morning. I am sure you understand and I want the record to
show that this deposition is being continued under the same authority
and under the same conditions as it began this morning, and also that
you are under the same oath. Now there are a few more general areas
that I would like to talk to you about concerning the character of Jack
Ruby and the type of man he was. Let me direct your attention to the
political beliefs and thinking of Jack Ruby, and ask you what comment
you have to make about that.

Mr. SENATOR. None whatsoever on his beliefs on political issues.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you mean by that that you don’t know?

Mr. SENATOR. Break down when you say political issues.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean do you know anything about what his thinking was
from what he told you concerning his beliefs about politics in general?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he was not of the nature, he never went into anything
of that nature.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him discuss international politics?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to show any interest in international affairs
as they were developing?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean would he be the type of person that would read the
newspapers at all? Did he read newspapers at all?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure; he read newspapers religiously every day.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he read all of them, I mean every part of it?

Mr. SENATOR. I will tell you, when you ask me that, I tell you where
his reading is. On the toilet bowl. That is where all his reading is—is
on the toilet bowl. It may sound funny, but it is true.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us any idea from what you know, of what his
reaction to international events was, such as, for instance, the Cuban
crisis in 1962?

Mr. SENATOR. He never discussed these.

Mr. HUBERT. You are familiar with what I am talking about? I think it
was in the fall of 1962 when we discovered that Cuba had some possible
atomic weapons over there, a subject of national interest.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have read that.

Mr. HUBERT. And the Berlin crisis of the year before?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is the sort of thing I mean. Did he comment about that?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it your thought that he just had no interest in that
sort of thing at all?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, if he did or not, he never discussed it too much.
He would read a paper. He would read his ad. He reads these—of course,
I am certain he reads all parts of the paper, but especially the
entertainment part, he was very anxious in reading.

Mr. HUBERT. Normally when two people share space such as you do, and
are in each other’s company and have any conversation at all, the
conversation normally relates to the topics of the day, as it were, as
reflected by newspapers and other news media.

I wonder if you can throw any light on what his attitude was or his
interest was towards topics of the day of international import.

Mr. SENATOR. I just don’t recall. All I know is that he reads the—of
course, I am certain he reads all of the paper, you know, or various
parts, but he would talk about show business a lot with me, see.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him discuss at all any international
incident?

Mr. SENATOR. I just can’t think offhand. I don’t say he did or didn’t.
I just can’t think offhand if he did or didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever seek to engage him in small talk, shall we
say, about subjects of that nature?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he talked about the President. I remember once we
were watching a picture of President Kennedy’s kid going between the
desk. He thought that was so wonderful, you know, enjoyed over that. I
remember that distinctly.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean he saw that on TV?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this he marveled over. But the discussion, we never
went into papers too much. He was mainly, I know when he grabbed the
paper the first thing he would go to is the show part of it, his
competitors, the show part of it, the night life, Tony Zoppi, with a
nightclub. He is like, I don’t know how to compare him, to somebody who
writes a column in New York.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall in all of the years you have known Jack of
his being interested in international affairs to the point that you can
remember any discussion with him?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. At all?

Mr. SENATOR. I really can’t think offhand. I don’t say that he probably
hadn’t, but I just don’t think offhand.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember any such discussions?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Now what would be your impression, knowing Jack as a whole,
of his interest in international affairs?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. The reason I asked you that, although I realize it is an
opinion question, is because you have been able to give us your opinion
on other aspects of his life and character, for instance, that he was a
man who was not a homosexual, and so forth, and you based your opinions
upon your experience with him, and this is just another aspect of his
character, that is all.

Now I am simply asking you what is your opinion about his interest in
communism or rightism or leftism or middle-of-the-roadism or any kind
of ism.

Mr. SENATOR. The only way I can refer to anything of that nature is the
time we saw the billboards.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean that was——

Mr. SENATOR. The impeachment of——

Mr. HUBERT. After the President was——

Mr. SENATOR. Right; this was the time that I saw——

Mr. HUBERT. We will get to that, but are you willing to say now, as
far as you can remember, that that is the only time you ever saw him
interested in a matter of that nature?

Mr. SENATOR. You see, when he gets home at night, the first thing he
heads for is the bathroom, and the paper goes with him, and from there
on he sits there, I don’t know, 45 minutes reading the paper.

Mr. HUBERT. I appreciate your comment because it throws some light on
it, but I would like to have an answer if you can give it to me to that
question. I don’t know if I can rephrase it.

(The previous question was read by the reporter.)

Mr. HUBERT. Can you answer that question?

Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t get that.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if I can rephrase it. You mentioned that you saw
him interested in a matter that concerned an ism. I had previously
asked you whether or not he had, to your knowledge, any interest in
rightism, communism, leftism, middle-of-the-roadism, and you mentioned
that one incident.

Mr. SENATOR. Those, none whatsoever, because he is a lover of the
country he lives in. He was never——

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose that would be called Americanism.

Mr. SENATOR. Americanism. He loves the nation he is in.

Mr. HUBERT. You formed that opinion, of course, on certain events or
things that he told you. Can you refer to what those things would have
been?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I can’t, but I know that he has never belonged to any
organizations. He has never attended any meetings to my knowledge, and
this is the only way that I can in all reality base it.

Mr. HUBERT. You say that he is a lover of his country. Now, did he
say so or did he act in certain ways regarding certain instances that
caused you to form that opinion?

You see what I mean, any impression that you have about anybody is
based upon your reactions to things said or done, and that is all I am
asking you to say.

Now you say he is a man who loves his country. I ask you, did you
hear him say so or did you get that impression from things he did, or
attitudes?

Mr. SENATOR. I just take this for granted that he does, the same way as
I take it that I know that I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you know you do from your own experience, but on
the other hand you don’t know about somebody else.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how to base it with him. I know he is very
fond of the city he lived in.

Mr. HUBERT. And how do you know that?

Mr. SENATOR. Because he has told me he likes Dallas. He likes Dallas,
he likes everything about it. He liked living there. He liked it
because there wasn’t any hustle and bustle like any large, big city
like New York or Chicago or California.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you similar facts or experiences upon which to base
your opinion that he is a lover of the United States as such?

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t base it on anything. It is only what I think. And,
of course, to my way of thinking I think everybody does.

Mr. HUBERT. I think I am beginning to see what you mean. You assume
that everybody loves their country.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Unless there is something to the contrary.

Mr. SENATOR. Sure.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask some questions along that line.

Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead and do it now unless you prefer to wait.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I would just as soon, when you finish with an area,
pick up from notes I have been making.

Did Jack Ruby, George, to your knowledge show any interest in any
political candidates for local office in Texas?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know on that. I will tell you, as far as I know of
him, he has never spoken of or never messed around with anything like
that, political-wise or anything of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him with any campaign literature for
anybody?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I haven’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him with any literature of any political
sort that would be other than newspaper literature?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know in Texas and elsewhere there are all sorts of
organizations that are putting out literature, the John Birch Society
and Civil Liberties Union.

Mr. SENATOR. He never messed around with that. The only first showing I
ever seen of any nature was that night he woke me up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned that Jack read newspapers, and you thought
every day. Did you have a newspaper delivered to your apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he bought it on the way home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he read newspapers from outside of Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he bought the morning paper and the evening paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he buy the Fort Worth papers?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and Fort Worth, come to think of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular reason why he should buy a Fort Worth paper
rather than a Dallas paper?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because he bought them both. No particular reason, but
he would buy them both for news or see what is going on in Fort Worth,
I assume.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He would buy a Fort Worth paper at a Dallas newsstand or
would he only buy the Fort Worth newspaper when he went to Fort Worth?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he would buy a Fort Worth paper, I will tell you where
he bought it, he bought it at the Adolphus Hotel. He always picked
his paper up at the stand in front of the Adolphus. He would buy the
morning news. As a matter of fact, he would buy any paper that was
laying around there that the man had in front of the stand there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he read the Wall Street Journal?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t even think he could understand it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about magazines? Did he subscribe to any magazines?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Time magazine, Newsweek?

Mr. SENATOR. I never seen any magazines come in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any magazines around the house?

Mr. SENATOR. No; the only magazines I ever bought was Reader’s Digest.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you people have a television set at your apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you have a radio?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack accustomed to being at home and watching the TV
or listening to the radio?

Mr. SENATOR. On the TV part; yes, he would put that on. He would have
that on, and, of course, there is two things I know interested him on
TV.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were those?

Mr. SENATOR. Those were Westerns and the stories, you know, whatever
stories there might be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean the movies?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the movies, and he liked the Westerns, you know, the
half-hour or hour programs, whatever they were.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a radio in his car?

Mr. SENATOR. He had, what do you call those little things?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Transistor?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; transistor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have one that was installed in the car itself?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean put in?

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know.

Mr. SENATOR. He had it put in?

Mr. GRIFFIN. A car radio.

Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes; installed with the car?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this any sort of special kind of radio?

Mr. SENATOR. No; just a radio that came with the car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It wasn’t equipped to receive any kind of frequencies?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. FM or anything like that?

Mr. SENATOR. No. As a matter of fact, the last car he bought he bought
second-hand, which he thought he had a good buy on, and he bought it,
and, of course, the thing had a radio in it, you know, whatever make it
was. Nothing special about, just the ordinary car radio.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about your radio at home? Could that pick up FM?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or shortwave?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if it could or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a radio was it?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t even know the make or the brand. One side there
was a clock and the other side was a radio.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it then your conclusion about Jack Ruby would
be that he didn’t have any particular political feelings one way or
another, and he wasn’t a great patriot and he wasn’t disloyal. As far
as you knew he was just an ordinary American citizen.

Mr. SENATOR. He was a good, sound American citizen, and politics, he
never messed around with that. He never messed around politically at
all. The majority was connected with the music industry, the night
life, you know, his club, his competitors, what they were doing.

Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to the automobile and the radio——

Mr. SENATOR. Pardon me.

Mr. HUBERT. Concerning the radio in the automobile, what was his custom
about putting it on when he was riding? Was it his custom to put it on
or not?

Mr. SENATOR. No, not. He normally didn’t put it on.

Mr. HUBERT. Normally he would not put it on?

Mr. SENATOR. Normally he wouldn’t have it on. He also had one of the
little transistors, one of these transistors that he had. The reason he
had this transistor, of course he had it before I was around, the car
he had before then, the radio didn’t work, so he had the transistor.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did he keep it, in the automobile?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he laid it on the seat.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he play it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he put on the music.

Mr. HUBERT. So that was his custom when he was driving around, instead
of turning on the radio in the automobile?

Mr. SENATOR. I wouldn’t say at all times. Certain times he would put it
on and play the music.

Mr. HUBERT. He would play the transistor?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. That was on the car he had when the radio, the car
radio was not working.

Mr. HUBERT. What was Ruby’s habit so far as you know concerning his
finances, and his banking and so forth?

Mr. SENATOR. As far as I know about it, his bank was his pockets. Now,
if he had any banking, I don’t know what he had in it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe then that he carried large sums of money?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes; always. Everybody knew that.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, how did he carry it?

Mr. SENATOR. In ready cash.

Mr. HUBERT. But I mean did he roll it up and put it in his pocket?

Mr. SENATOR. Rolled it up or have a string around it, not a string, you
know, one of these rubber bands around it. He would carry some here and
he would carry some here, and some here, and some in his back pocket. I
don’t think he knew where he had it half the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that when the witness was saying “here,
here and here,” he was pointing to various pockets.

Mr. SENATOR. This is the way. As a matter of fact, he used to say to me
“George, where is my money,” because he can’t remember where he put his
money.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you were with him frequently when he closed up the
Carousel at night and you would go home?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How was the money handled then, that is the receipts of
that night?

Mr. SENATOR. In his pocket.

Mr. HUBERT. We have heard something about a canvas bag, a money bag.
Did you ever see that?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t know what he would have in the bag. You know
when it comes to money, that is his business. It doesn’t get that close
to me.

Mr. HUBERT. No; we are just asking you what you observed, that is all,
about his handling of it.

Mr. SENATOR. He has had money in the bag, and he has had it in his
pockets. Now I don’t know what the separation could be unless he has
got a certain amount of money for bills or what it is I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. When he had money in the bag where did he leave the bag?

Mr. SENATOR. The bag? In the trunk.

Mr. HUBERT. In the trunk of the car?

Mr. SENATOR. While going home.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you would come out of the Carousel he
would take his bag up, and it had money in it, and bring it and throw
it in the trunk of the car?

Mr. SENATOR. Right. He would get home, open the trunk, take the bag up.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know anything about a gun that he had, a pistol?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know about it.

Mr. SENATOR. I know he had a pistol, one of the small ones. In the
nature of his type business, carrying all this money, this cash with
him, this is why he always had the gun with him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he keep the gun on his body?

Mr. SENATOR. At times he had it on his body and at times he had it in
his pocket.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he own a holster for the gun?

Mr. SENATOR. No; not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Either a shoulder holster or a hip holster?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never seen it.

Mr. HUBERT. So when he carried a gun on his person where would he keep
it?

Mr. SENATOR. It would be in his pants pocket or sometimes it may be in
the bag.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know anything, from talking to him or otherwise,
about the ownership of the Vegas Club? Who owned the Vegas, in other
words, as far as you know?

Mr. SENATOR. As far as I know Jack Ruby owned it.

Mr. HUBERT. Am I correct in assuming that your opinion on that point is
from what he told you, or did he say anything else?

Mr. SENATOR. I always understood that he owned it, I mean as far as I
know. Of course, there is a lot of things that I don’t know that he
never told me, you know. He doesn’t expose everything.

Mr. HUBERT. Eva Grant was actually the operator of it, wasn’t she?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but Eva always felt like she was the owner. This is a
sister. Of course, she had it and managed it for quite a while. I don’t
know how long she managed it, has been at the Vegas Club, because it
was before me even, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. On what do you base that opinion that she thought that she
really was the owner?

Mr. SENATOR. Because I assumed that Jack was a brother and she felt it
was like hers.

Mr. HUBERT. You see what I am trying to get at is whether or not there
are any statements or incidents that occurred which led you to the
opinion that she thought she owned the Vegas. Do you see what I mean?

Mr. SENATOR. The only way I could express that is Jack used to say to
me that “Eva thinks she owns the club,” because she has been staying
there so long.

Mr. HUBERT. How do they get along?

Mr. SENATOR. They are both of the same nature, like cats and dogs.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it from that you mean they used to fight a lot.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; because as well as Jack would holler, let me assure
you she can holler too.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have been a witness to some of those instances?

Mr. SENATOR. As a matter of fact, the further away the better.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t quite understand.

Mr. SENATOR. For me the further away the better. In other words, I
shied away from all that. I didn’t want to listen to that kind of stuff.

Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying is——

Mr. SENATOR. I am not happy over the fights.

Mr. HUBERT. My question is how frequently it happened.

Mr. SENATOR. How frequent I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. But you were a witness to some, I take it, and when it
began you would want to get away, is that the idea?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I tell you where I heard most of it, I mean what
I can recollect is when around the telephone. Of course, I can’t
hear her, but I can hear him shouting, so apparently I know there is
something that is flickering.

He is hollering at her about something, or she is hollering at him
about something. See, she is hard to get along with, with the employees
of the Vegas Club. She is just hard to work for. All I know is I never
want to work for her.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the ownership of the Sovereign and the Carousel?
Do you know anything about that, who owned that?

Mr. SENATOR. The Sovereign, he has some partner. I don’t remember who
his partner was. Of course, this is all before I got that close, but he
had a partner in the Sovereign Club.

Mr. HUBERT. Joe Slayton was it?

Mr. SENATOR. That is it, Joe Slayton.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, Slayton ultimately got out of it, didn’t he?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it your impression that Jack owned the Sovereign
entirely?

Mr. SENATOR. No; Joe Slayton was a part owner.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean after Slayton left.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know about that. That is a little before me.

Mr. HUBERT. What about Ralph Paul? Did he have any part in it?

Mr. SENATOR. Ralph Paul had a part in it. I don’t know what the
breakdown was, but I know Ralph Paul was connected with it.

Mr. HUBERT. Connected by way of ownership?

Mr. SENATOR. I believe he was connected by ownership. I mean if he
owned half or what it was I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. On what facts do you base that?

Mr. SENATOR. On guesswork. I know he had something to do with it. What
part he owned I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. What facts make you state that you know he had something to
do with it? There must be something that occurred again.

Mr. SENATOR. Nothing occurred because I mean I have seen Ralph, I know
Ralph, and I know there is the association of him having a part of that
club somehow.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it to you this way. Did Jack ever tell you that
Ralph Paul owned part of it?

Mr. SENATOR. Not directly, but I knew. You know as well as I know Jack,
there was an awful lot of things he didn’t tell me circularwise. You
can say moneywise where he kept his money, if he had a bank account, I
know he had a connection with Ralph Paul. How much Ralph owned I don’t
know.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Paul ever tell you anything about his interest or
ownership?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the first time he mentioned it to me, and, of course,
this is after this whole deal happened.

Mr. HUBERT. The shooting?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you?

Mr. SENATOR. He said once that he had a part of that place there. He
was part owner of that place.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when he told you that, and where?

Mr. SENATOR. He told me at the Carousel, but I don’t remember when. I
mean I can’t specifically remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that he took over the management right
away, as soon as Jack was in jail?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he did. Now, I don’t know how much he owned or how
much Jack owned.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that it was an ownership interest?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, there was, but how much I don’t know. In other words,
I don’t know who owned the bigger piece or if it was equal.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that only the two of them had an interest in
it?

Mr. SENATOR. To my knowledge. I don’t know of anybody else.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear of his brother Earl having a possible
interest in it?

Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Earl?

Mr. SENATOR. Sure. The first time I met Earl is, of course, when all
this happened.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know him before that?

Mr. SENATOR. Never seen him before in my life.

Mr. HUBERT. What about Sam?

Mr. SENATOR. Sam? I knew Sam. I have never seen him that often. Of
course, I met Sam at the Vegas Club. Sam at one time worked there with
Eva, and they couldn’t get along, so Sam was out, fighting like cats
and dogs. Eva is just a hard girl to work for.

Mr. HUBERT. What was Jack Ruby’s attitude toward the police as a group?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, all I know is apparently he must like them. They
always used to come to see him.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about those who came to see him. Do you know who
they were?

Mr. SENATOR. I knew a lot of them by face. I didn’t know them all by
name.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they come frequently?

Mr. SENATOR. Various ones, yes, every day. I don’t say it is the same
ones, whoever was coming in, but they would either be plain clothes or
police in uniforms.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they come to inspect or to enjoy the club as a place of
entertainment?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, they came to inspect, to my knowledge I would say
they came to inspect, but Jack always offered them a coffee, asked them
if they wanted coffee, a Seven-Up or a Coke.

Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t it a rule in fact that they could get such little
items as coffee and Cokes and Seven-Ups and soft drinks without cost?
He gave them that?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that was the nature of it.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the arrangement about the entrance fee? They
didn’t pay that, if they came socially?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You have been on the door yourself?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any instructions on that?

Mr. SENATOR. No, they didn’t pay entry.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they pay for drinks?

Mr. SENATOR. They had a special rate.

Mr. HUBERT. What was it?

Mr. SENATOR. I think 40 cents, or anybody that was a friend of his—in
other words, for an example, your taxi drivers, the taxi drivers used
to bring customers. In other words, an out-of-towner would say “where
can you go,” they would say the Carousel or the Colony or wherever they
may bring them.

So they brought them up there, in other words, if they were off duty
and wanted to come up, they were guests of Jack’s, and they paid a
special price for drinks.

Mr. HUBERT. And they didn’t pay the admission charge?

Mr. SENATOR. No. Now the fellows who worked downstairs in the garage,
they were allowed in, but at a special price. The special price was no
different for anybody. It was all one price, the special.

In other words, they gave them a discount on beer or the setups,
whichever they were having, and your hotel bellcaps and things in that
area, he always let them in free.

I mean he was good to these type people, you know, and, of course,
these weren’t people of tremendous means or of that nature, and
everyone had a cut price, he always gave them a discount on the drinks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to go back a bit. Talking about the ownership of
the Vegas Club and the Carousel Club, did Jack rent the premises of the
Vegas Club or did he own part of that building?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I think he rented it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He rented it, so when you talk about ownership of that
operation out there——

Mr. SENATOR. Not owning the building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not talking about any real estate.

Mr. SENATOR. No, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He did have some physical assets out there I suppose? He
had tables and chairs?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And a piano maybe?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, that is what you are talking about when you talk about
ownership?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Right?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. In other words, ownership, I refer to the merchandise
or the things in the place, not only the building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the right to get the profits if there were any?
Did he get the profits off the Vegas Club or did Eva Grant get the
profits, or did they share it in some way?

Mr. SENATOR. This part I don’t know. All I know is the money was
handled by Eva, and which way the money ever swung was left out of
my—wasn’t any of my business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack had a practice at the Carousel, and correct me if I
am wrong about this, that at the end of every night, he would take that
night’s receipts and he would take them down to his car, right?

Mr. SENATOR. Either that or put them in his pocket.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or put them in his pocket?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, whichever he saw fit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what would he do once he got that money in his pocket
or in the car? What would he do with it, take it back to the apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would he do with it in the apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. Just leave it in his pants or whatever it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a safe back in the apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a safe at the Carousel Club?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he visit the Vegas Club every night?

Mr. SENATOR. No. He would probably say he would visit the Vegas
Club—you know, for a while they were running this amateur hour every
Friday, and Jack would go after he closed the Carousel, he would go
over to the Vegas because the Vegas would stay open one hour later.

I don’t know how to describe it. They were able to stay open until
3 o’clock in the morning, and they would have a little bit of
entertainment from 2 to 3, and Jack would sort of MC it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you say Jack wouldn’t go there every night?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many nights a week would he go to the Vegas Club?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say, of course, I can’t always say, I
don’t always see him all the time, you know, and I am not with him all
the time, but I would probably say it was more so weekends. Now, during
the week I don’t say that he probably hasn’t jumped over there, because
if he has I don’t even know, because when he does go out he doesn’t
tell me his moves where he is going.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were living with Jack at the Carousel Club in
that period of time, how long was that that you lived at the Carousel
Club?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how long he lived there before me. I don’t
know how long he lived there previous to when I came, but I wasn’t
there too long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there a week or 2 weeks?

Mr. SENATOR. It might be. I just don’t remember how long it could be.
It might have been 2 weeks. It might have been 3 weeks, I don’t know.
It might be that long. Mind you, I want you to know this is guesswork.
I am only guessing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your impression that during the week on 5-day weeks
that maybe 3 or 4 nights out of a week he would not go to the Vegas
Club?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am saying that he wouldn’t go to the Vegas Club. There
would be 3 or 4 nights out of the week that he would not go to the
Vegas Club?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; I would probably say that, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what was done with the money over at the Vegas Club
every night?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know, that part I don’t know. I am not familiar
with that part.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Jack take any money from the Vegas Club
and bring it back to the apartment or put it in his car or in his
pockets?

Mr. SENATOR. No; not out of the Vegas. I don’t know if it has been
done, but I haven’t witnessed it. The money is handled, at the Vegas
the money is handled by Eva. Now, how she disburses it or banks it I
don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any bank accounts that Jack maintained?

Mr. SENATOR. He had one bank. What he had in it I don’t know. I am
trying to think of the name of the bank. Do you have a listing of the
banks he has? Can you refresh my memory on it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I can give you a list of banks and read off some names.
Tell me if any of these are familiar to you. How about the Park Cities
Bank and Trust Company?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the National Bank of Commerce?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The American Bank and Trust Company?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Mercantile National Bank?

Mr. SENATOR. No; see, if you can find one on—continue.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, the Industrial National Bank.

Mr. SENATOR. Merchants. Have you got Merchants? That is the one I am
thinking of. I think he had a bank account at the Merchants.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But not the Mercantile National Bank?

Mr. SENATOR. If he did I didn’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there two different banks, one the Merchants and the
other the Mercantile?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the South Oak Cliff State Bank?

Mr. SENATOR. If he did I didn’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you only heard of one?

Mr. SENATOR. I heard of the Merchants.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss what was done with the
receipts from the Vegas Club?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Eva Grant mention that?

Mr. SENATOR. No; but I will tell you what I assumed. I assumed the
money was paid, what money was taken in, I assumed that the employees
were paid off, the band was paid off, the gas and electric and the rent
would come out of that. This is what I assumed, or whatever incidentals
there might be. Now, the disposal otherwise I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Then the fact is that you don’t really know how the funds
at the Vegas were handled?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or what part Jack got of it?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now let’s move to the period of the week of the
assassination of the President Can you tell us first of all where you
were when you heard of the assassination?

Mr. SENATOR. I was in a bar having a liquid lunch. I was uptown. I was
in a bar and had a couple of beers for lunch instead of eating lunch,
and some chap walked in, who I don’t know, and he drove up with his car
and he had the radio on, and as he walked in he said, “The President
was shot.” And I hollered “You’re kidding.” He says, “No; I am not
kidding.” So we got outside, and this is all going on on this car radio
we listened to.

Mr. HUBERT. That was in downtown Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I was uptown.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen the Presidential parade?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t see it at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Jack planned to see the parade?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he comment about the President’s visit?

Mr. SENATOR. You see, let me jump a little ahead of that. That morning,
you see, of course, which is a working day for me, I am up much earlier
than he is, and he was sleeping when I left that morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him the night before?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the night before.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you discussed the visit of the President, his coming
the next day?

Mr. SENATOR. We talked about that. We talked about the President was
coming in, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of his comment concerning this?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember what he said.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t mean the words, but the ideas.

Mr. SENATOR. Well, we were happy that he was coming.

Mr. HUBERT. Jack was too?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; coming into Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack tell you why he felt happy about it?

Mr. SENATOR. No: I just don’t remember if he did relate that or not,
but we thought it was a great honor for him to come to Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he think his coming would help business in Dallas
generally, and his business in particular?

Mr. SENATOR. No; there was no comment on that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he state whether or not he was going to try to see the
parade?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t mention that.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have previously said in a statement that you
saw him sometime that night, and he went out or something, and then,
you went to bed?

Mr. SENATOR. No. The next time that I saw him was the following morning
when he woke me up.

Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about the night now of the 21st, before
the President was shot, Thursday night, you all talked about the
President’s coming. Did he go out or stay at home, do you recall?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he is at the club. He goes to the club.

Mr. HUBERT. He is at the club?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You went to bed, and when he came in I assume you were
sleeping.

Mr. SENATOR. You are talking about Thursday?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, I am talking about Thursday night and Friday morning.

Mr. SENATOR. Thursday night—the President came in Friday.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but Thursday night did Jack follow his usual routine?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; his usual routine.

Mr. HUBERT. You were asleep I guess when he got back?

Mr. SENATOR. Thursday night I don’t remember if I was or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, Friday morning when you got up he was asleep.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you didn’t talk to him until you heard of the death of
the President?

Mr. SENATOR. No; the next time that I talked to him was Saturday
morning.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t speak to him at all on Friday afternoon after
the death?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I never saw him at all. I was out. I was out all day.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go home on Friday night at all?

Mr. SENATOR. Sure.

Mr. HUBERT. What time?

Mr. SENATOR. Friday night I must have went home around somewheres
between 10 and 11. Of course, I bought the paper at the Adolphus before
I went home. I always buy a paper, too.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack home then?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. He had not attempted to contact you from the time of the
President’s death at all?

Mr. SENATOR. No. He couldn’t contact me because I was around.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you try to contact him?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you bring out where it was that he was around?

Mr. SENATOR. When I said “around”?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Mr. SENATOR. Around town, no particular place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you going from bar to bar?

Mr. SENATOR. No, not bar to bar. I had been at a couple of bars. I was
with a friend of mine that night, and we went out, we had a couple of
beers and we were so disgusted, if you can picture the overall picture
of Friday night in the city of Dallas after the occurrence, what
happened that afternoon or late that morning, the city was, I don’t
know how to describe it, morguelike. They were brooding. Everybody was
brooding, a sad affair.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course you don’t know whether Jack went to the apartment
on Friday night before you got there?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. So you went home and went to bed.

Mr. SENATOR. I read the paper in bed, and that is when I saw the why’s
about the President. They had a list, “Why, Mr. President?”

Mr. HUBERT. A full-page ad?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; “Why, Mr. President,” so and so, “Why are you here?”

Mr. HUBERT. The one signed by Bernard Weissman? W-e-i-s-s-m-a-n.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You saw that before you saw Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. As a matter of fact, I read the paper in bed.

Mr. HUBERT. You went to sleep, I take it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened next?

Mr. SENATOR. The next thing I know somebody was hollering at me, and
shaking me up. This was around 3 o’clock in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. That was who?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Now describe him to us at that time. What was his condition?

Mr. SENATOR. He was excited. He was moody; and the first thing come out
of his mouth is the incident. Of course, the incident what happened
to President Kennedy, and he said, “Gee, his poor children and Mrs.
Kennedy, what a terrible thing to happen.”

Mr. HUBERT. Had he been drinking?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack don’t drink.

Mr. HUBERT. He wasn’t drinking on this occasion?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he don’t drink, no.

Mr. HUBERT. And his remarks were concerning the children?

Mr. SENATOR. The children and Mrs. Kennedy and how sorry he felt for
them.

Mr. HUBERT. What other comments did he make?

Mr. SENATOR. Then he brought up the situation where he saw this poster
of Justice of the Peace Earl Warren, impeach him. Earl Warren.

Mr. HUBERT. He said he had seen that poster?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he had saw that poster.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say when he had noticed it?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I think he noticed it that day or sometime that day, I
assume. I am not sure, but I think it was that day, and I assume that
when something goes into his brain he wants to follow it up and find
out why, why that poster was up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you had some experiences like that before?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But I mean you said some experiences where he got
something in his mind and he wanted to find out why, and he followed it
up.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I can’t relate any, but I assume these
things could happen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you had never had any experience of that sort?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I haven’t had any experience.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, this was a new experience for you.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and he made me get dressed.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you when he made you get dressed?

Mr. SENATOR. He was telling me about this sign here.

Mr. HUBERT. Why did he want you to get dressed?

Mr. SENATOR. He wanted me to go down to see the sign, and meanwhile he
had called. He had a kid sleeping in the club who helps around, and he
has got a Polaroid camera. So he calls the kid up, wakes him up.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear that call?

Mr. SENATOR. What?

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear that call?

Mr. SENATOR. Yeah, he calls him up and says, “Larry, get up, get
dressed,” something of that nature, “and get that Polaroid with the
flashbulbs and meet me downstairs. I’ll be right downtown.”

Mr. HUBERT. That was after he told you to get dressed?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; after he told me first.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he at that time comment upon or notice the Weissman
ad that you had been reading the night before, the big ad that you
commented upon, “Why, Mr. President,” I think it was called?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember he noticed it there or he noticed it
after the incident. Now, if he seen it before I just don’t remember,
but I know after we got through this incident, which I will relate to
you, we were looking at this ad.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was at the house?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; this was—I saw it myself originally.

Mr. HUBERT. In the newspapers?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You had the newspaper on your bed. You had gone to sleep
reading?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I probably threw it on the floor. I think I threw it
on the floor before I went to bed.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case you have no recollection that you discussed the
ad prior to leaving the house?

Mr. SENATOR. I just don’t remember if I did or not, but I do know that
we did look at that ad that night at another place.

Mr. HUBERT. We will get to that. What happened next then?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I got dressed, went downstairs, got in the car. I
got dressed. We went downtown. We picked up Larry. He drove over to
where this billboard was.

Mr. HUBERT. Had he told you where it was beforehand?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he told me it was on the corner of Hall and the
expressway.

Mr. HUBERT. Which expressway?

Mr. SENATOR. North Central Expressway. I had an indication because I
sort of knew the location of the area. I know where Hall Street is and
I know where the expressway is.

Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead. Just pick up as to what happened.

Mr. SENATOR. So we went downtown and picked up Larry. From there we
drove over to where this billboard was, and he had the kid take three
Polaroid shots of this billboard. Now, what his intentions were with
these I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t express any?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t say what he was going to do with them but he
wanted three shots.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him or did anyone else ask him why he wanted to
take pictures of this?

Mr. SENATOR. No; all he said to me, “I can’t understand why they want
to impeach Earl Warren.” He said, “This must be the work of the John
Birch Society or the Communist Party.” And he wanted to know why.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say how taking a picture would help him to find out?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t. He didn’t say how that would help him to
find out. So from there we went down to the post office.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Larry go with you?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. To the post office, I mean.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do at the post office?

Mr. SENATOR. Wait now, we went down to the post area. This sort of
slips away from me when the time gets by on the ad. We must have
discussed it or seen it at the house. I just remember now, but I think
we probably did. We must have seen it. So anyhow we went up to the post
office.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say “the ad”——

Mr. SENATOR. The paper ad.

Mr. HUBERT. The Bernard Weissman ad?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the Bernard Weissman ad.

Mr. HUBERT. So you now think, and let me get it straight, you
previously stated that you weren’t sure?

Mr. SENATOR. I wasn’t sure.

Mr. HUBERT. That Ruby had noticed the Bernard Weissman ad after he had
wakened you at the house, and you were dressing, and before you left,
but you think now you must have?

Mr. SENATOR. We must have because we went to the post office.

Mr. HUBERT. When he did see the ad, was there a comment about that?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he wanted to know why on this.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there were two things he wanted to know why
on.

Mr. SENATOR. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Why the Earl Warren poster and why the Bernard Weissman ad?

Mr. SENATOR. Right; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So then he had you take Polaroid pictures of the poster
concerning Chief Justice Warren, and then you went to the post office.

Mr. SENATOR. We went to the post office.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of going there, and in connection with
what?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, that was in connection—going to the post office was
in connection with the paper ad now.

Mr. HUBERT. How was it connected to the paper ad?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, there was a post office box on this ad. I just don’t
recall the number of the post office box. But he wanted to see if there
was such a box.

Mr. HUBERT. So did you go into the post office with him?

Mr. SENATOR. We went into the post office. We saw a box with that
number on it. There was a lot of mail in there.

Now, of course, who it belonged to—we don’t know if it belonged to him
or not, but he did press the night buzzer. There was a little hole
there where you get the night clerk, and he asked the night clerk who—I
think it was 1762 or something like that. I just don’t remember the
number.

He asked him who it is. The night man says, “I can’t give you any
information. Any information you want there is only one man can give it
to you and that is the postmaster of Dallas.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby make a reply to that?

Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge. You mean to him?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; to the clerk. Did he say anything more?

Mr. SENATOR. No; if I am not mistaken, I think he said “How do you get
to the postmaster” or something of that nature. I am not sure now.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he annoyed with the clerk?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he wasn’t annoyed with the clerk, but he was deeply
annoyed with the ad, with both ads.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you how checking the box at the post
office would assist him in whatever he had in mind?

Mr. SENATOR. He wanted to know; he had also said that he had checked
the telephone directory and couldn’t find this Bernard Weissman, who
supposedly put an ad like this here, and couldn’t have been local
because he looked to see if there was a Bernard Weissman in the Dallas
telephone book.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see him look it up. He merely told you that?

Mr. SENATOR. He merely told me that. I didn’t see him look it up.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Larry Crafard go with you to the post office?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay in the automobile, or come to the post office
with you?

Mr. SENATOR. I believe he came into the post office. I have to guess on
this. I am not sure, but I think he came into the post office.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. SENATOR. Then from there we went to the Southland Hotel coffeeshop.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located?

Mr. SENATOR. That is on the corner, on Commerce, and I don’t know what
the little side street is, but it is just below the Adolphus Hotel on
Commerce Street. I don’t know what the side street is.

Mr. HUBERT. Who went?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack, Larry, and myself.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?

Mr. SENATOR. I would assume we stayed there—maybe about 15 minutes
would be a rough guess.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the nature of the discussion between you at
that time?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He reread this paper ad of the why’s of the President.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did he get the paper from?

Mr. SENATOR. It happened to be it was lying on the counter. The news
was lying on the counter, and, of course, he ruffled through it.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say he reread it; so now you are quite certain that
he had read it before?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he must have read it before. See, now, I can’t tell
you if he read it before that or I showed it to him or what. I just
don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case when he saw it at the coffeeshop, it was
obviously the second time.

Mr. SENATOR. He was very disturbed.

Mr. HUBERT. Or the third time.

Mr. SENATOR. He was very, very disturbed over both of these.

Mr. HUBERT. Explain what actions of his lead you now to the conclusion
that you describe as a disturbed condition.

Mr. SENATOR. His voice of speech; the way he looked at you.

Mr. HUBERT. His voice was loud or low or different or what?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it was different. It was different; the way he looked
at you. It just don’t look like the normal procedure.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him in that condition before?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say—I don’t know how to put these
conditions together, but I have seen him hollering, things like I told
you in the past, but this here, he had sort of a stare look in his eye.
I don’t know how to describe it. I don’t know how to put it together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn’t catch that. What kind of a look?

Mr. SENATOR. A stare look; I don’t know. I can’t express it. I don’t
know how to put it in words.

Mr. HUBERT. But it was different from anything you had ever seen on
Jack Ruby before?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was noticeably so?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I could notice it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it disturb you any?

Mr. SENATOR. I wouldn’t say exactly I was disturbed, but I could notice
it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be concerned about the President’s death or
the ad or what?

Mr. SENATOR. To me, I would probably say it must have been a
combination of the entire thing. I know he was deeply hurt about the
President, terribly.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you know that. How do you know that?

Mr. SENATOR. What? By his feelings; by the way he talked about the
family and the children; by tears in his eyes, which I have seen, and I
am not the only one who has seen it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that he was more disturbed than the average
person that you know was disturbed about the President’s death?

Mr. SENATOR. All I know, while I can’t say about the average because
all I know, he was really deeply disturbed, but I can’t describe an
average because there might be another individual of his nature, too,
who knows. Who knows the affections of each and every individual?

Mr. HUBERT. In any case his reaction was such——

Mr. SENATOR. It was pretty well—you know, disturbed as I was and as
disturbed as I have seen many friends of mine, it was worse with him
than it was with the others who I have seen.

Mr. HUBERT. That is exactly what I was getting at. So he got hold
of this newspaper ad and read it again—is that it—that is, in the
coffeeshop?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he looked it over again.

Mr. HUBERT. What comment did he make, while reading it or after?

Mr. SENATOR. While reading it?

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t mean his words, you understand, his exact words,
but the meaning, the thoughts expressed.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the thoughts. He can’t understand it. It is so
penetrated in his mind he can’t understand why somebody would want to
do something like this.

Mr. HUBERT. The ad had nothing to do with killing the President?

Mr. SENATOR. No; but he couldn’t understand why an ad like this should
break out, about this ad. Another thing he couldn’t understand why in
the world would they want to impeach Justice Earl Warren. Incidentally,
that sign come out of Massachusetts, that billboard.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it your impression that Ruby was putting the three
instances together as being connected in some way; to wit: the death of
the President, the impeach Earl Warren sign, and the Weissman ad? Was
he seeming to do that?

Mr. SENATOR. He was seeming to do at that time—he was seeming to do
with the impeachment of Earl Warren, and the Weissman sign; he couldn’t
understand why these things were of a nature—I don’t know how long this
billboard has been out. I don’t know if it has been a day, two, or what
it was, and then the ad break out the same day that President Kennedy
was coming in. He wanted to know the whys.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, as I understand you, you gathered that was
running through his mind, was why the ad, and the poster, appeared at
the same time as the visit of the President; is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say it is something of that nature, I
guess.

Mr. HUBERT. I want to distinguish that, if possible, from another
situation, and that is whether or not you gathered that he was disposed
to place the killing of the President together with the poster and the
ad.

Mr. SENATOR. Run that again.

Mr. HUBERT. From what you could gather from his attitude, from what
he said and how he acted, do you think it was running through his
mind that there was a connection between the Earl Warren poster,
the Weissman ad, and the killing of the President rather than the
President’s visit?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I would say the subject at that time, when he was
looking at the sign and taking pictures of it, and the newspaper ad,
that this is where he really wanted to know the whys or why these
things had to be out. He is trying to combine these two together, which
I did hear him say, “This is the work of the John Birch Society or the
Communist Party or maybe a combination of both.”

Mr. HUBERT. What is the work of those two; the death of the President?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no, no, no.

Mr. HUBERT. The publication of these signs?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He did not indicate what his impressions were as to who was
behind the death of the President?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t indicate that.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor did he seem to associate the ads and the poster with
the President’s death?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know about that part.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do know that he was wondering why these two things,
the poster and ad, should come out at the same time?

Mr. SENATOR. Now, mind you, I don’t know if they come out at the same
time, because the billboard, I don’t know if that thing was there a day
or a week.

Mr. HUBERT. But he was associating the two of those together?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Or trying to find out if there was any connection between
those two?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he wanted to know why.

Mr. HUBERT. And it was the fact that the ad was published and the sign
was posted that he attributed to the Communists or the Birch Society.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and he couldn’t understand why the Dallas Morning
News would ever print such a thing like that, say that in their paper.

Mr. HUBERT. You see what I am trying to get at is whether he manifested
in any way that his thinking associated the assassination of the
President with the posting of the Warren poster and publication of
the ad, or rather whether he was simply associating the fact of the
publication of the ad and the posting of the poster with communism, and
so forth.

Mr. SENATOR. To my belief I think he was trying to associate the ad and
the poster with the Communist Party or the John Birch Society.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not gather from what he said that he associated the
death of the President to the Birch Society or the Communists or any
other group?

Mr. SENATOR. Not at the time that we were talking; rather, he was
talking about the signs.

Mr. HUBERT. That is, the poster and the ad?

Mr. SENATOR. The poster and the ad.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you all talked to anybody else in the coffeehouse, in
the coffeeshop?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I don’t think there was anybody in there at that time
outside of, I think, a cashier and probably a waitress.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he made any comment to the cashier or
the waitress?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Larry have any comment to make that you recall?

Mr. SENATOR. I just don’t remember if he had any or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, when Ruby stated what you said he stated
concerning the poster, and so forth, did you have any comment to make
about it?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, nothing compared to him. Of course, after I heard
him mention it, then I sort of wondered also why an ad like that would
be put in the paper, or why anybody would want to impeach Justice Earl
Warren. What did it mean?

Mr. HUBERT. Jack had taken the pictures and he had gone to the post
office to check on the box. Did he state what he intended to do further?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you tried to calm him down?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it your impression that his state was that he should be
spoken to by a friend and calmed down?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I don’t know. It is hard for me to say these things.
Who would really know?

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case you didn’t argue with him about his view?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I don’t argue with him at any time.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not state a concurring view, I take it?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or an opposing view?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor did Larry?

Mr. SENATOR. Larry I can’t speak for because I just don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. And you don’t remember whether Ruby spoke to anybody else
or anyone else spoke to him?

Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what did you all do next?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you go on, did Jack indicate what he was going to
do with the photographs that he took?

Mr. SENATOR. No. He just took them and he never said what he was going
to do with them. Of course, I know what the windup was with them later
on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was that?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I believe the local policemen got them after the
shooting when they searched him, took his money and his papers, and all
of that, and I believe those pictures were with it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you——

Mr. SENATOR. At least I assumed the pictures were with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where this sign was located? When you rode
out there in the car, do you recall any conversation you had with him,
out to the sign?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. That was covered.

Mr. SENATOR. You see, when I have to jump 5 months back, it is hard to
remember little things. It is not holding back. It is hard to remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you all go then?

Mr. SENATOR. From there he dropped Larry off, and Larry went back up
and went to bed, up at the club. Then we went home.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any further discussion at all between you and
Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. Let’s see; I think we put on the TV for awhile that
morning.

Mr. HUBERT. It was about what time of the morning when you got back?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say somewhere between 5 and 6. Of course, I am
guessing the time.

Mr. HUBERT. It was still dark, wasn’t it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, but I think it was sort of a break already; you know,
sort of lighting up a little bit.

Mr. HUBERT. Go on.

Mr. SENATOR. And if I remember right, I think it was a rerun of the
episodes of the day, if I remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to bed before Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean when we came back to the apartment?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. The same time. We went at the same time.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you all looked at TV for a period. How long
a period?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know; maybe 10 or 15 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you all went to bed?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You went to sleep?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether he did or not?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he went to bed. I assumed——

Mr. HUBERT. You were in a different room from him?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I assumed he did, because when I woke up he was still
asleep; you know, later on.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was that?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say I must have woke up around, I don’t know, 10
o’clock, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. That is Saturday morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Saturday morning. I would say something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. He was still asleep?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he was still asleep, but through the normal
shuffling, you know, going to the bathroom and such and such, it woke
him up.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was the telephone in that apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. In the living room, but it had a long wire.

Mr. HUBERT. But the ringing sound came from the actual machine itself?
The ring would be where the phone was located?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was the phone located that night, do you know, in the
living room?

Mr. SENATOR. I think it was in the living room.

Mr. HUBERT. How far from your bedroom was it?

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t——

Mr. HUBERT. As close as his?

Mr. SENATOR. Let me tell you. In the living room, of course, he had
one of these extension wires that would probably run, what, 13 feet or
something like that, 12 feet, I don’t know what the extension is, but
where it was at that moment I don’t know. I assumed that it was on the
table. I just don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Would he normally take it in his room?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think he could get it all the way in his room. You
see, he had the far bedroom and my bedroom was closer. I could take
it in mine, but I don’t think I could take it in his, or he might be
able to take it just partially a little bit, but I don’t think it would
extend that far.

Mr. HUBERT. If the phone machine was in the living room where it
normally was, you would be closer to it, right, than he would?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it you did not hear a phone call for him that
morning?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever had occasion where the ringing of the phone
wakened you?

Mr. SENATOR. I would have to say “No” on that because I am always up
before he is.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us whether or not if Jack had received a phone call
about 8:30 Saturday morning you would have heard it and it would have
wakened you?

Mr. SENATOR. If he did I just don’t recollect. I wouldn’t say he did or
didn’t have one because I just don’t remember if he did have one.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember if he had one?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. That I understand. But what I am asking you is whether
or not the ringing of that phone in the position it was as you have
explained it that is closer to you than to him, would have awakened you.

Mr. SENATOR. Oh sure, sure. I could have heard it.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to go so far as to state that since it did
not awaken you, that there was no phone call?

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t quote because I don’t know if there was a phone
call.

Mr. HUBERT. That is not what I asked you. I am asking you whether you
are willing to state that if there had been a phone call, it would have
awakened you?

Mr. SENATOR. I would assume so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me go back a bit here. Up until the time you went to
bed early Saturday morning, had Jack told you what he had done since
the President was shot?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know of some of them. I know that he went to the
synagogue.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you did he tell you that night? I am not asking
you what you know now, but before you went to bed Saturday morning had
Jack told you what he had done that night, rather what he had done
since the President had been shot?

Mr. SENATOR. I think he went to the—wait, I don’t remember if he
told me that night or it was the next day. This is the thing I don’t
remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I am trying to get at is whether you have any
recollection.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember, but I do know that he had told me
that he went to a synagogue and that he brought sandwiches around to
the police station, these are things I knew that he did. But I don’t
remember if he told me that night or the next morning. I don’t remember
which time it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got up the next morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack up?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he was sleeping.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see Jack before you left the house Saturday
morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes. He was still home when I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he awake?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you talked with him?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is where I had left off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. That is why I stopped.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said as a matter of fact here that the process
of your waking up and moving around the house and so forth wakened
him. How long did you stay around the house?

Mr. SENATOR. Saturday morning you are referring to?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; after awakening.

Mr. SENATOR. Saturday morning I must have left, as a guess, mind you,
somewhere around, maybe somewheres between 11:30 and 12:30. Of course,
I am only guessing. I could be a half hour off or I might be an hour
off.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say that you stayed around the house anywhere
from 1 hour to 2 hours after you awakened?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I would probably say that.

Mr. HUBERT. And during most of that time Jack was awake and up, too?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He awoke after.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you recall the substance of the conversations between
you during that period of either 1 hour or 2 hours or something in
between?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, we watched TV a bit, and he had mentioned—of course,
he wasn’t feeling good when he woke up—he had mentioned the fact, he
sort of rehashed the President and the kids all the time, how sorry he
felt for them and how a great man like President Kennedy could have
been shot. He thought this was a terrible thing to happen. Many a time
he went through this how sorry he felt for the kids and Mrs. Kennedy, a
poor tragic thing like this to happen to them.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that he had decided to close the clubs?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I wasn’t with him. That was Friday night.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that, but I mean by Saturday morning, we are
speaking of the conversations of Saturday morning.

Mr. SENATOR. No; this I already knew.

Mr. HUBERT. You already knew?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you find that out?

Mr. SENATOR. Friday night.

Mr. HUBERT. Who told you?

Mr. SENATOR. The ad in the paper.

Mr. HUBERT. That is how you first saw it?

Mr. SENATOR. That is how I knew. That was an ad at the same time——

Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss with him at any time, either on Friday
night or Saturday morning, the fact that he had closed the clubs, and
the reason therefor?

Mr. SENATOR. He told me why he closed the club. He put this in heavy
black, in heavy black block, that the Carousel will be closed Friday,
Saturday, and Sunday, because he thought it was a terrible thing for
anybody to be dancing and entertaining or drinking of that nature there
at a time such as this.

Mr. HUBERT. You say that he put an ad In the paper Friday night that
the club would be closed for 3 days?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what time because I assume he put it in
sometime Friday afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. But the first time you saw the notice about the closing of
the clubs, there was an announcement that the club would be closed for
3 days?

Mr. SENATOR. Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, I mean Friday, Saturday,
and Sunday. That is the way the ad ran.

Mr. HUBERT. And you saw that on Friday night before going to sleep?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to him about it?

Mr. SENATOR. About the ad?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Being closed?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I told him that I read it.

Mr. HUBERT. And what was his comment, or query?

Mr. SENATOR. He was hoping that everybody else would close. He was
hoping that the two other strip joints would close when they read his
ad, because he didn’t feel they should be open on account of the simple
reason of the tragedy that happened, where they should be having
entertainment, dancing, and drinking. He didn’t think it was the right
thing to do at this time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that he thought it would hurt them
if they did not close also?

Mr. SENATOR. That it would hurt their business?

Mr. HUBERT. The other business, his competitors?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I don’t know about that, but I assumed, of course,
I am assuming only what I think, that I believe a lot of stores also
closed that day. I think Neiman Marcus closed. I believe in that
downtown area there was quite a few stores that did close.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it come to your attention that he was attempting to
keep his competitors from knowing that he proposed to close?

Mr. SENATOR. How could he when he ran an ad?

Mr. HUBERT. I mean for the Friday night.

Mr. SENATOR. To keep them from knowing?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever indicate to you——

Mr. SENATOR. As a matter of fact, I would think he would want them to
close.

Mr. HUBERT. Why?

Mr. SENATOR. And I assumed that the way he put that ad in there. He
thought everybody should observe something, such as what happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware that he had told Larry Crafard not to put a
little sign that was posted in front of the Carousel, not to tack it
up announcing the closing of the Carousel until after the time for the
opening of the other competitors?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because I never saw him that day.

Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t indicate to you as a matter of fact that he
would like to see them open while he was closed?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. In grief over the President?

Mr. SENATOR. I was sort of inclined with my own thoughts in mind that
he would probably want to see them closed. This was my own thought of
mind.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack give you any of his reflections on how this
tragedy of the death of the President would affect the community of
Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. No; not that I can recall.

Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about either Friday night or Saturday or at
any other time.

Mr. SENATOR. You are referring to the individuals in the city of
Dallas, right, the people of the city of Dallas?

Mr. HUBERT. The business principally.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall his making any comment to the effect that
this tragedy would hurt the convention business of Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. If he said it I just don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment to you that you recall or heard to
the effect that the tragedy and the hurting of the convention business
would hurt his own Carousel and Vegas business?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. He did not comment upon that at all?

Mr. SENATOR. If he did, I just don’t remember. I really don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his general condition on Saturday morning during
the hour or 2 hours that you had occasion to observe him as opposed to
the condition that you have already described on Friday night?

Mr. SENATOR. He still had that hurt feeling within him of what
happened, and apparently this had never left his mind.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk about the poster and the pictures he had
obtained of it, or the Bernard Weissman ad?

Mr. SENATOR. He was now referring to the tragedy of the President, and
of the family, what would happen to the family.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on Saturday morning the events of earlier
that morning, that is his agitation over the poster and his agitation
over the advertisement seemed to have passed away?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if it did or not.

Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t comment on it?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember him commenting on it.

Mr. HUBERT. And his attitude at least was different in that regard than
what it was the night before?

Mr. SENATOR. What he thought I still don’t know about that.

Mr. HUBERT. You have given us a description of what his reaction was to
the poster and to the ad.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now what happened——

Mr. HUBERT. That Friday night. All I am trying to do is get a
comparison of his attitude in those areas between the two times. Do you
see what I mean? I gather from what you tell me, let me see if I can
rephrase it, that on Saturday morning the stress, if it could be called
that, or the most important aspect of his reaction that you observed
was his feeling of sorrow as to the President’s family.

Mr. SENATOR. Saturday morning?

Mr. HUBERT. Saturday morning.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; which was working on him pretty good.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you say that it was working on him pretty good,
and that is a mental impression that must have been created by the
happening of events or by statements being made. How was it working on
him pretty good? What did he say or do to convey to you that it was
working on him pretty good?

Mr. SENATOR. He kept on repeating these things, numerous times he
repeated that.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that extraordinary for him?

Mr. SENATOR. I would think it would be. To me it would be.

Mr. HUBERT. And what else was he doing that indicated to you——

Mr. SENATOR. And I had seen him cry, because I guess who hasn’t you
know.

Mr. HUBERT. And what else?

Mr. SENATOR. And I had seen him cry, and he just got that funny look in
his eyes. I don’t know how to describe it. You call it a far-away look
or a look of something. I don’t now how to tear it down. But it wasn’t
a natural look.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have that impression that morning or have you
reconstructed all this in your mind after all the events had happened?

Mr. SENATOR. About his looks?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No; you could see it. After all, I have been around him
enough to know the difference.

Mr. HUBERT. You noticed the difference. And, of course, he shot Oswald.

Mr. SENATOR. What?

Mr. HUBERT. You noticed this difference, and you now have a
recollection of noticing that difference about the events of the next
day; is that right?

Let me show you what I mean. I want you to try to remember whether you
had a distinct impression, which you now recollect, on Saturday about
his worsening condition. Do you have that recollection now, Mr. Senator?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I could tell by facial expressions, facial look.

Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at is whether or not in thinking over
this thing as you must have done, of course, that you reconstructed all
of this, and that your recollection is of the reconstruction rather
than of the fact itself. Do you understand what I mean?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know what you mean when you ask me if I am
reconstructing it.

Mr. HUBERT. What I mean is this. When after all this whole thing came
to a climax with the shooting of Oswald by Ruby, you must have put all
of your thoughts together concerning those last days, and as a matter
of fact you have been questioned a number of times by a number of
people.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Including Government agents?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And including his lawyer. What I want to know is whether
what you are telling us now is a recollection of the reconstruction of
this whole period, or is it now a distinct recollection independent of
any reconstruction that you made in telling the story to anybody else.
Do you remember now, today, that on that Saturday morning you had the
feeling that man is getting worse on this subject?

Mr. SENATOR. That is the way he appeared to me.

Mr. HUBERT. And you remember that now, that that thought turned over in
your mind on Saturday morning.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it alarm you in any way?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how to describe myself with it, but I know it
didn’t look good.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your fear?

Mr. SENATOR. I wasn’t fearing anything. I just didn’t like the way he
looked.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say it didn’t look good, in what way do you mean?

Mr. SENATOR. It didn’t look like the normal look as I have known him.

Mr. HUBERT. Was your concern, if not your fear, that he might go off
his normal method of thinking or that he would do himself harm? I mean
were you concerned or was it just simply an observation which you
passed on?

Mr. SENATOR. I am observing all this. You know I can tell. But I didn’t
know what to think. I didn’t know how to think.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already said that you didn’t have any
fears of anything.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I wasn’t afraid of him.

Mr. HUBERT. No; but I mean were you concerned that something might
happen to him, that he might do something?

Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you think that——

Mr. SENATOR. The thing is I never asked him the thoughts within him or
what he was thinking about.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that maybe somebody ought to talk to
him about it, that his grief was going to the point, or his condition
of being upset was going to the point that somebody ought to talk to
him about it?

Mr. SENATOR. I know he visited his sister, and, of course, both were in
grief together, and I don’t know if he contacted his rabbi or not.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned a little while ago that he told you
he had been to the——

Mr. SENATOR. To the synagogue.

Mr. HUBERT. To the synagogue?

Mr. SENATOR. If he talked to the rabbi, I don’t know. Now, I know that
he went to the synagogue that Friday night to pray for the President.
Now, if he had personal contact with the rabbi I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether he went to the synagogue on Saturday?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I really don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. You left him at the house when you left?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you left at approximately 12:30?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say something around that nature.

Mr. HUBERT. He would certainly not have gone to the rabbi then, to the
synagogue, on Saturday morning.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I mean I couldn’t answer that. I wouldn’t
know.

Mr. HUBERT. Maybe you can, or at least you can give us some facts. He
was asleep when you awoke at 10:30, isn’t that right?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but he was up. He Was up when I left.

Mr. HUBERT. And you left at 12:30?

Mr. SENATOR. I am only assuming within an hour.

Mr. HUBERT. So it could have been 11:30?

Mr. SENATOR. 11:30, 12, 12:30. I can’t say because actually, you know,
when this period is going on, I am not watching clocks. I don’t own
one. I can’t go by a timetable because I didn’t have the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Certainly, he didn’t leave the house from the time he got
up until you left.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I left first.

Mr. HUBERT. That is correct.

Mr. SENATOR. Now, what time he left I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t leave the house from the time you got up
until the time you left?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, perhaps we can fix the time when you left a little
better by going on and seeing where you went. I ask you where you went?

Mr. SENATOR. Saturday where did I go? Saturday I think I stopped down,
I think my first stop was down at the coffee shop. I think I went down
for coffee, and my whereabouts, I don’t even know where I went that
day because I don’t work on Saturdays. I guess I probably just as well
stood around. Just where I went, I remember where I went Saturday
evening, but I don’t remember where I went Saturday afternoon. Just no
particular place or anything unusual.

Mr. HUBERT. You do recall that your first stop in any case was the
coffeeshop?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Which one was that?

Mr. SENATOR. I think it was Eatwell Coffee Shop that I went to.

Mr. HUBERT. You had sort of breakfast and coffee?

Mr. SENATOR. Coffee and. Maybe coffee and a doughnut or coffee and a
bun or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. You were driving the Volkswagen?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You were not on business?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say you have a distinct recollection of some event
that night?

Mr. SENATOR. Of where I was?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes; because when I came home that night, I think it
was around somewheres between 7 and 7:30, I think I come home that
night, and I come home with some groceries that I wanted to make. So I
made some groceries and——

Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack home at that time?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he was gone.

Mr. HUBERT. He was not there?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he wasn’t there.

Mr. HUBERT. That was about 7:30?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say I think it was around 7:30. So I made the
groceries and then I left some for him, and I ate and I was assuming
that maybe he would be home by the time I was making the groceries. But
he wasn’t home, so after I ate I went out again.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been drinking that afternoon?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. Possibly I may have had a beer or two.
I just don’t remember. I am not a heavy drinker. I am not a drunkard,
mind you.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I didn’t mean to infer that at all, but I was wondering
why it was that you couldn’t give us any indication of where you went,
whether it was one or several places between noon or 12:30 until 7:30
that night. I think you can remember some of the things, some of the
places.

Mr. SENATOR. Well, let me see.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t come home until 7:30?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I was out.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you follow any usual Saturday afternoon routine?

Mr. SENATOR. No. There is nothing. There is no routine. Saturday, there
is no routine.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t call on any customers?

Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing. Just out, that is all.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you riding around for 7½ hours?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go?

Mr. SENATOR. This is what I am trying to think, where did I go. I don’t
remember if I called my lawyer friend or met my lawyer friend or not
that day.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is your lawyer friend?

Mr. SENATOR. I have got—Jim Martin. I don’t remember if I called him.
Once in a while I’d have a beer with him.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know whether you had a beer with him, I
suppose?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. I just don’t remember the routine of the
day. There was nothing that I did in general.

Mr. HUBERT. You did go to some grocery store to pick up the groceries?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which one that was?

Mr. SENATOR. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which grocery store it was?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I think I went to Safeway.

Mr. HUBERT. Safeway?

Mr. SENATOR. Safeway.

Mr. HUBERT. On what street?

Mr. SENATOR. That is on Jefferson.

Mr. HUBERT. Well now, does the recollection of that fact, which must
have been what you did almost immediately before going home—let me put
it this way. Was your trip to Safeway to pick up the groceries the
thing that you did immediately before you went home?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So it would be safe to say, wouldn’t it, that you went to
Safeway around a half hour to an hour before you went home?

Mr. SENATOR. I probably had gone maybe around 6:30 or 7, something like
that.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that help to refresh your memory as to where you had
been just before you went to the grocery?

Mr. SENATOR. Is it possible to forget?

Mr. HUBERT. Why yes, of course, it is.

Mr. SENATOR. Mind you this is 5 months.

Mr. HUBERT. But it is my duty to explore the possibilities.

Mr. SENATOR. I know that. If I could think and help you out I would be
happy to, if I knew. I just can’t place, place to place, where I have
been. I may have been out having a beer or I may have been out chewing
the fat with some friend of mine. I just don’t remember what I was
doing that day.

Mr. HUBERT. It may be that if you think about it a bit more you can
help us a little later on.

Mr. SENATOR. I could if I wanted to, I could have made up a fictitious
story to you and say that I sat in the bar for 3 hours or I was out
with some girl or something like that. He is writing all this down. But
I am telling you the truth.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t want you to tell us something that is fictitious.
If it is a fact that you do not remember, then that is the fact and
that is all we want to know. I think that sometimes one’s memory is
refreshed, as it were, by events. If you can’t remember it now, we
will come back to it a little later and see if you can recollect what
happened in this period of about 6 hours on that Saturday afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, unless you want to pursue this further, let me
ask him a question.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that you might have visited with Jim Martin.
Is this someone that you see regularly?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Jim is an attorney down in Dallas, a very good friend
of mine, who on occasions I will have a beer with. Now, possibly I may
have had it and I just don’t remember. I go to see him often, or I meet
him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Jim single?

Mr. SENATOR. Pardon me?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is he a married man?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he is a married man. He is the one who also was on
the Ruby case for a while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are his offices located?

Mr. SENATOR. On Main Street. As a matter of fact he just moved
recently. He was on Main Street, and he is still on Main Street, but
the lower part of town in what they call the Lawyers’ Building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you accustomed to visiting at his home?

Mr. SENATOR. I go to his home once in a while, yes. I have eaten dinner
at his home or I have went up there and cooked for him once in a while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you known Mr. Martin?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say roughly around 2 or 3 years I guess, something
like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to meet him?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I met him through a friend of mine one day, if
I remember right. I think we were having a cocktail one day in the
Burgundy Room. I think this is how I met him. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has he represented you in any legal matters?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is he a friend of Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. He knows Jack. I believe all the lawyers in Dallas know
Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if you visited in the area where the
President was shot, on Saturday?

Mr. SENATOR. What?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if you visited in the area where the
President was shot?

Mr. SENATOR. Was I down there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No. I drove by. I mean I didn’t stop. I drove by there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any errands or chores or anything that you
customarily do on Saturday?

Mr. SENATOR. No, nothing in particular, no. I will tell you Saturday I
just don’t like to work. I just don’t like to do anything particular,
you know. Of course, I would say that, of course, Saturday is a wash
day. It is not that I wash every Saturday, you know, or launderette
day. I do my own.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you do Jack’s also?

Mr. SENATOR. No. Jack doesn’t even do his own. He sends them out, but I
do my own.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you do your laundry?

Mr. SENATOR. Downstairs in the apartment. There is a couple of washers,
two or three washers, and a couple dryers right in the apartment. It is
like these machines similar to the store like.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Jack use those? Did Jack use those?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have some particular place he sent his laundry?

Mr. SENATOR. He takes it out and has somebody do it for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where that was?

Mr. SENATOR. I was there one time with him when he was picking up
his laundry. If I am not mistaken, I think it was on the McKinney or
Fitzhugh, Fitzhugh or McKinney. I think it was somewhere up in that
neighborhood. But Jack, he takes his laundry and sends it to this
place. He takes it over. But instead of him doing it, he has a girl do
it for him, and they straighten it out for him when it dries up and all
that there. Then he will come back and pick it up. If he don’t pick it
up one day he will pick it up the next.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He takes it over to this laundry?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The girl does it for him at the laundry?

Mr. SENATOR. She does it with the soap and powder and all that. They
have girls over there, a couple colored girls.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This would ordinarily be a self-service laundromat?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But there are people there so that if you don’t want to
serve yourself they will do it for you?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is the nature of this place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. His brother Sam, wasn’t he in the laundry business?

Mr. SENATOR. Sam fixes those machines. I think Sam was employed by
somebody. I don’t know who he was employed by, but he fixes these
washers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But he doesn’t have washaterias?

Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge; no. I think he is an employee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This area that you are describing, is that in the general
Oak Cliff area that you people lived in?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no. This is in town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Downtown?

Mr. SENATOR. Not downtown but you have to go through downtown to go
uptown.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What section would you call this section?

Mr. SENATOR. That area would be I would say sort of north—northwest
part of town I think.

Mr. HUBERT. While you are on the laundry subject, wasn’t there some
equipment in the basement of the building you were in?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I said I did mine but he don’t do his.

Mr. HUBERT. When you came home, as I understand it, it was about
7:30, and you fixed a meal for yourself. Before I pass for the moment
from this period on Saturday afternoon, let me ask you this. You were
interviewed I think by the FBI and by Elmer Moore of the Secret Service
very shortly after these events, by the FBI, I believe, on Sunday the
24th?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. No; first the police had me, the local had me.

Mr. HUBERT. The local police?

Mr. SENATOR. Then from the local they put me into the FBI.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they question you at that time as to your activities
during this period of 6 hours on Saturday afternoon between roughly 12
and 6 or 12:30 and 6:30?

Mr. SENATOR. No; they questioned me, I believe they questioned me from
Friday.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell them at that time that you had no recollection
of what you had done during this 6-hour period?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember what I told them. I don’t know if I was
asked that, if I can remember right. I believe the questions they asked
me, if I remember right, is when was the next time I saw Jack that
day, if I remember right, that when I left, what time did I leave that
Saturday, and I believe when was the next time I saw him, if I am not
mistaken, if that is the way it ran.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you give the police a written statement?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You signed a written statement for the police?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they made me sign a written statement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what time it was that the police
questioned you on Sunday?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I’ll tell you why I don’t remember. When they grabbed
me, they took me and shoved me into some little room all by myself, and
I don’t wear a watch because I am allergic to watchbands. I can’t wear
a watch. And I don’t know how long I was in this little room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that in the evening or the afternoon on Sunday?

Mr. SENATOR. That was the afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And had you talked with Jack Ruby up to that time, between
the time of the shooting and the time that you were questioned by the
police?

Mr. SENATOR. The last time that I saw Jack Ruby is when he left Sunday
morning. That is the last time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you didn’t see him again on Sunday?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I saw him when they waltzed me by. When the police got
through with me they waltzed me by to the FBI, that is when I saw him
through a glass.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But never talked to him?

Mr. SENATOR. No; couldn’t get near him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with his sister or with——

Mr. SENATOR. That day?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or with anybody else who had seen Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you were questioned?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I’ll tell you why. When I got out, when I got through
with this whole thing that night, it was already dark outside, and I
for one had never seen the shooting on TV, and I still have never seen
it to this day, the shooting on TV, and I never saw the runs because
they had me there that late. I don’t remember what time I got out that
night, but I assume it was dark. It may have been around 7 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So between the time you left Jack Ruby back at the
apartment on Sunday, and the time that the police first started to
question you later on Sunday afternoon, you didn’t see Jack Ruby in
that interval?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At least to talk to?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Eva Grant?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Tom Howard?

Mr. SENATOR. Tom Howard?

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s take a little recess at this point.

(Short recess.)

Mr. HUBERT. We will convene again after recess, with the same
conditions and same understanding about the oath and so on.

Now I think you said you came back home at 7:30 on Saturday night and
you had bought some groceries and Ruby was not there.

Mr. SENATOR. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. You fixed yourself something to eat, and I believe you said
that you left.

Mr. SENATOR. No; first of all I was thinking that he might show up
while I was——

Mr. HUBERT. You fixed enough I think you said for two people.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he come home before you left?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you leave?

Mr. SENATOR. I left about maybe around 8, 8:30. As I say, I got to——

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any phone calls prior to your leaving?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go?

Mr. SENATOR. From there I went downtown. I think I went to the Burgundy
Room, if I am not mistaken, that night.

Mr. HUBERT. That is in the Adolphus Hotel?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and I met a friend of mine there, and we were feeling
low. I was feeling low.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the name of the friend?

Mr. SENATOR. Bill Downey.

Mr. HUBERT. What is his occupation?

Mr. SENATOR. He is a traveling salesman who sells musical equipment and
all the other stuff that goes with it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Mr. SENATOR. Let’s see now, and Mike Barclay. He is an attorney.

Mr. HUBERT. The three of you were together?

Mr. SENATOR. Went out.

Mr. HUBERT. The three of you were together you say?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. We went out to a bar and we had a beer or two, and
everybody was low down and got disgusted, and they all wanted to go
home including myself.

Mr. HUBERT. So you all did so?

Mr. SENATOR. So we all went home, and I think I got home about 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack there then?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Jack was there. He had eaten, and he said he was
going out. Now, where he went I don’t know, but he said he was going
out.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you describe his condition then?

Mr. SENATOR. His condition was in the same thing it was in the past.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it like it was in the morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He was in that same kind of condition.

Mr. HUBERT. He was no worse?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, it is hard to say how much worse it was. He didn’t
look good.

Mr. HUBERT. The reason I asked that question is because——

Mr. SENATOR. You know when you say “worse,” I don’t know how to
put words together, you know, in expressions, the expression of an
individual’s face.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me show you what I mean. Perhaps you can help me when I
tell you what I have in mind. You have told us earlier that you thought
that his condition on Saturday morning was worse than it was on Friday
night and early Saturday morning.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think the expression you used, “the thing was getting
at him,” so that you formed the impression that the condition was
worsening, isn’t that correct? Is that a fair statement?

Mr. SENATOR. That is the way it looked; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I ask you if you will give us a comparison.

Mr. SENATOR. I know what you are talking about, but I don’t know how to
compare these things, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it worsening? Was it getting to him more? Did it seem
to be getting to him more Saturday night as opposed to 12 hours earlier
roughly Saturday morning?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say it was of the same nature or
something like that. It wasn’t good, because for me to try to express,
and I don’t know how to express a facial nature. It is just hard for
me to put in words. If you take the complete facial expression and the
eyes and all that, I am not a connoisseur at just being able to express
these things, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I am just asking you for another comparison because
you had given us a previous one, and I thought that another comparison
between another period, two others periods, would be useful if you
could give it to us, and that is all. I gather from you that your
general impression was that there had not been much change in his
condition over what it was on Saturday morning.

Mr. SENATOR. I will say something in the same nature.

Mr. HUBERT. That it was of the same nature?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what the nature of the conversation was
between you two that night?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because when I walked in, he was just about on his way
out. I asked him if he ate. I told him I bought groceries. He said,
“Well, I ate already.” He ate.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after you arrived did he leave?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, God, within 5 minutes. It was just that short, that
fast, and out he went. Now, I don’t know where his visitation was. I
don’t know if he went to see his sister.

Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t tell you where he was going?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Then or ever?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t tell me at all where he was going.

Mr. HUBERT. He never did tell you later?

Mr. SENATOR. No; and I didn’t ask him.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you don’t know where?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because when I went home, you know, when I got home I
went to bed. I was going to bed.

Mr. HUBERT. And you went to bed about 10:30?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say about half an hour later, maybe around 11.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time he came in?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because I wasn’t awake.

Mr. HUBERT. The next time you saw him?

Mr. SENATOR. Was Sunday morning.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you awaken on Sunday morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Sunday morning I assume it was somewhere around between 8
or 9, somewheres in that time. Just something in that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any way to fix it at all?

Mr. SENATOR. No; you see, when I was on the witness stand with Mr.
Bill Alexander, now he tried to make me pinpoint it right down to the
minute. It is highly impossible. If you are not watching a clock and
don’t have one, how can you pinpoint these things? How can you really
do it? How is it possible? How can you pinpoint time when you are not
watching it?

Mr. HUBERT. In any case what you are saying, your best estimate is that
it was——

Mr. SENATOR. I have to estimate it. Now, as I say when I estimate it, I
can be 15 minutes, a half hour or maybe an hour off on time.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you told us earlier that when you went to bed as
early as 11 o’clock you usually woke up quite early.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is why I say I probably woke up maybe around 8
or 9 that morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Ruby——

Mr. SENATOR. Of course, I read in bed, you know. I read in bed.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Ruby there when you woke up, or not?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he was sleeping.

Mr. HUBERT. When did he waken?

Mr. SENATOR. Ruby must have woke up I assume it probably would have
been maybe—of course, I have to guess again—I would assume somewheres
around between 9 and 9:30.

Mr. HUBERT. Why don’t we put it in terms of how much after you did Ruby
wake up. In other words, no matter what time you awoke, can you tell us
how long after he awakened?

Mr. SENATOR. It could be maybe three-quarters of an hour or an hour. I
am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your first distinct recollection of him that
morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, the moment he got up he went to the bathroom, which
is normal for him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him then?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I did. Of course, we turned on the TV. He had the TV
going. He turned it on to see what the latest news was. Then he went to
the bathroom. Of course, then he washed, and he went in and made his
own breakfast. I only had coffee. He made himself a couple of scrambled
eggs and coffee for himself, and he still had this look which didn’t
look good.

Mr. HUBERT. Again I want to ask you, can you give us a comparison
between the look that he had that morning, which you just described, as
opposed to what it was on other occasions in the sense of whether it
was growing worse or not?

Mr. SENATOR. He looked a little worse this day here. But if you ask me
how to break it down, how he looks worse, how can I express it? The
look in his eyes?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, is that one of the things?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is the way it seems.

Mr. HUBERT. The way he talked or what he said?

Mr. SENATOR. The way he talked. He was even mumbling, which I didn’t
understand. And right after breakfast he got dressed. Then after he got
dressed he was pacing the floor from the living room to the bedroom,
from the bedroom to the living room, and his lips were going. What
he was jabbering I don’t know. But he was really pacing. What he was
thinking about——

Mr. HUBERT. That was after he was dressed?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now, what he was thinking about, I don’t know what he
was thinking about. But he did, which I forgot to tell you, he did get
that call from this Little Lynn from Western Union.

Mr. HUBERT. You remember the call?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you answer the phone?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he had already been up.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you know it was Little Lynn?

Mr. SENATOR. I could hear him say. I heard him say Lynn, Western Union.
I heard him mention Western Union. I heard about the money and that he
was sending it to Fort Worth. She needed $25 for rent.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that?

Mr. SENATOR. I heard him mention $25 over the phone.

Mr. HUBERT. How did he mention it, that he would send $25?

Mr. SENATOR. He would send $25 to her by Western Union.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention that it was for rent?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he told me after it was for rent.

Mr. HUBERT. He told you?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t hear Little Lynn ask for it?

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t hear it.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course not.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore he must have told you.

Mr. SENATOR. He said she called, and, of course, I knew it was Lynn
because I knew——

Mr. HUBERT. You knew who she was?

Mr. SENATOR. Sure.

Mr. HUBERT. But after he hung up, he told you that she needed $25 for
rent?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention that she had called the night before?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not know that at the time?

Mr. SENATOR. If she did I don’t know. This I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time that call was?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. It could have been anywheres between 9:30, I
am not sure, maybe 10. I am not sure what time it was. See now——

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s get at it this way.

Mr. SENATOR. Now you are placing me from the time I woke up to the time
Jack woke up, but I say with all these things I still have to guess the
times.

Mr. HUBERT. That is why I am going to put it to you this way. The time
of the call is known, and that is why I would like you to relate events
backwards from that time, you see.

Mr. SENATOR. I know that I was off on the time because——

Mr. HUBERT. No; I am not trying to get you off. I am trying to get the
facts, so let’s approach it this way. How long before the Little Lynn
call would you estimate it was that Jack woke up?

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t estimate the time, but I don’t think he was up
too long.

Mr. HUBERT. You say he had gone to the bathroom and that he had cooked
his breakfast and that he had gotten dressed?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he wasn’t dressed at the time Little Lynn called.

Mr. HUBERT. He was not dressed at the time?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he was still in his shorts. I think he was still in
his shorts.

Mr. HUBERT. If you could help us on this it would be valuable for us
to know about how long prior to the Little Lynn call did Jack actually
get up. If you want to break that into segments as to how long it was
before he started breakfast, and so forth, well, do that too. It may be
helpful to you and it would be to us. I can help you if you want along
these lines. Did the Little Lynn call come after he had finished his
breakfast?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I think that call came in before he had breakfast. I
think it did. I think it was before breakfast. I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. He answered the phone as I understand it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When he got up he went to the bathroom?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did the call come while he was in the bathroom?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. After he left the bathroom he went to fix breakfast as I
understand it.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if the call came in before or after he went
to the bathroom. It was one of the two. I don’t know which. As I say, I
would have to twist it.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t want you to twist it or to guess.

Mr. SENATOR. I have to guess. I have got to guess.

Mr. HUBERT. You have got to give your best estimation.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. If I don’t know I can’t answer it because I
have got to guess on this. You put me to guesswork.

Mr. HUBERT. No; we don’t want to have you guess. We want your best
estimation of the passage of time. If you don’t know, we certainly
don’t want you to guess. But you were there and we weren’t. Therefore,
we would like to know if you know. We don’t want you to guess.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I don’t know the times.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me give you another approach to assist you on this. You
said that you might have awakened anywhere from 8 to 9 yourself, is
that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that it was as long as 1 hour after you awoke
that the call came from Little Lynn?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. You know this is very complicated
when you try to make a timepiece out of this. It really is. I mean
especially if you are not watching the time and don’t know the time. It
is just a complicated thing trying to place a time together.

Mr. HUBERT. That is true, but on the other hand when we have a fixed
time, sometimes we can relate events to that time in terms of hours and
half hours and so forth. That is what I am asking you to do now.

Mr. SENATOR. You see when you are relating all three there, in the
relation of all three here from the time I got up to the time Jack got
up to the time he had his breakfast, from the time that Little Lynn
called I would be jamming all these things into maybe a half hour to an
hour in differences, and they would all almost clog together because
I would have to guess at all these, because, mind you, this wasn’t a
great expanse of hours. This is why I say I will be guessing and have
to be wrong. Mind you from the time that I wake up at 8 o’clock in the
morning, supposedly around 8 or maybe it was 8:30 or 9, I have to have
the answers, supposed to have the answers for what time I woke up, what
time Jack got up, Little Lynn in the short span of hours, and it is
hard to break these things down and be accurate.

Mr. HUBERT. We understand that, and the purpose is to find out if it is
possible to know, and if your answer to us is that you can’t tell us,
we don’t want you to guess.

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t tell you. The reason it is hard to tell you,
because I would have to guess at all these and I have no hours. It was
such a short span of hours, I would probably assume this whole thing
would consummate maybe in what, approximately 2 hours, whatever it may
be, maybe 2½ hours, I don’t know. Now, you know you have got to jam
hours in for these three things to fit, and I can’t jam them together
to make them fit.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if we can’t fix sequence of events instead of
trying to fix hours. You got up first.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And Jack got up next.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then another fixed event is the time that he went to the
toilet. That came next, didn’t it? He went to the bathroom?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then he fixed himself some breakfast.

Mr. SENATOR. Now you have asked me if he fixed breakfast first or the
telephone call, I mean her call.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember which came first. Now I am guessing that
the call came first. I am not sure. I can’t relate to be sure right now.

Mr. HUBERT. As to the sequence of those two events, we now know what
your recollection is, and that is that it could have been before or it
could have been after.

Mr. SENATOR. I just don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any event, he certainly dressed after he got the
call, is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. And after breakfast.

Mr. HUBERT. And after breakfast?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Then after he dressed he paced about some?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, at least we have the sequence of events so far as we
are able to put them together.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. We also know, you see, Mr. Senator, that as to one
sequence, you don’t know. I am not critical of you because you don’t
know, but we weren’t aware that you didn’t know until right now.

Mr. SENATOR. As I say, I mean when you take these four incidents and
try to, you know, try to jam them all into this short span of hours, I
just can’t break it down and be right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now let’s get to this. Was Jack normally a fast dresser or
would you care to estimate whether it took him——

Mr. SENATOR. No; Jack was never a fast dresser or never a fast washer.
He took his time. In other words, if I wanted to compare us, I could
dress five times as fast as he could or shave or anything else that
much quicker than he could.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that normally it took him a half hour to get
dressed and shaved?

Mr. SENATOR. A half hour to get dressed and shaved? I would probably
assume it would take something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. And do you think it took him that long on this morning?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if it took him that long.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case he did dress and you would think that that
took him a half an hour?

Mr. SENATOR. I would only have to guess. I can’t say.

Mr. HUBERT. Normally it would have?

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t assume the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Normally it would take him a half hour?

Mr. SENATOR. I would so surmise that it would.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did this pacing go on after he got dressed? It
may have been a matter of only a couple of minutes, but if it was more
than that, I think you would know it. I think if it was a half hour you
would know it.

Mr. SENATOR. I would say that he paced back and forth 5 or 10 minutes.
I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Was it at that point that he left?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything upon leaving?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he say?

Mr. SENATOR. He said, “George, I am taking the dog down to the club.”

Mr. HUBERT. Anything else?

Mr. SENATOR. That was it, and out he went.

Mr. HUBERT. He was fully dressed?

Mr. SENATOR. He was fully dressed.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe how he was dressed?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he wore a hat, wore a suit and a shirt and tie.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say when he was coming back?

Mr. SENATOR. No; that is the only words he said when he walked out.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him speak to Elnora Pitts on Sunday morning
over the telephone?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who Elnora Pitts is?

Mr. SENATOR. It is a colored maid. No; I have heard that incident
before, but I don’t remember this at all. I just don’t remember if he
did or not. I can’t, in other words, I can’t refresh my mind whatsoever
that Elnora called. Now, I could be wrong on this, but my mind is not
fresh for that long.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible that you were in a part of the
house or outside the house maybe?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I wasn’t out.

Mr. HUBERT. You never left the house?

Mr. SENATOR. I was in my shorts all the while, unless I—no, I don’t
even know. Maybe I could have been in the bathroom. I am not even sure.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case you have no recollection of Elnora calling?

Mr. SENATOR. I do not remember at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it her custom to call when she was coming out there?

Mr. SENATOR. I think he—I don’t know, but I know that he has driven by
to tell her to come up and clean the apartment sometimes or something
of that nature. Now, I know he did that one time, but I don’t know if
it is his custom to have her call or not. Maybe it had been, maybe it
hadn’t been. I don’t know on that.

Mr. HUBERT. I know I am asking you for another estimate, but I would
like to know what your view of it is. That is how long after Karen
Bennett called did Jack leave the house?

Mr. SENATOR. Who? Oh, Little Lynn?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Well, Jack was still in his shorts then when she called.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes?

Mr. SENATOR. This I do remember.

Mr. HUBERT. He had to dress?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But you are not sure whether he had fixed breakfast or not?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know which came first, if she called or he fixed
breakfast first.

Mr. HUBERT. Leaving those aside, all I was asking was whether or not
you could give us an estimate of the time from when Little Lynn called
until he told you “I am leaving and I am going out and take this dog to
the club.” Have you any idea at all? If you don’t, tell us.

Mr. SENATOR. Wait, wait, what time she called?

Mr. HUBERT. No; the time interval between when she called and when he
left.

Mr. SENATOR. I will make a wild guess. I would say it was at least
three quarters, it must have been about three quarters of an hour.

Mr. HUBERT. On what do you base it?

Mr. SENATOR. I am just guessing. I can’t base it on anything. I am only
guessing.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it quite guessing? You knew he had to dress.

Mr. SENATOR. Sure you have got to dress.

Mr. HUBERT. So that took up some time.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; had to wash.

Mr. HUBERT. And you also say that he paced up and down for some little
interval of time.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So when you characterize it as a wild guess——

Mr. SENATOR. I have got to guess.

Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if it is a guess so much as it is a putting
together of these little segments of time and estimating what each
would take.

Mr. SENATOR. I am saying I would have to guess. I would have to guess
all this.

Mr. HUBERT. When you said three quarters of an hour, wasn’t it really
the result of your thinking of how much time would be occupied to do
these little segments of activity such as dressing and pacing up and
down and so forth, and you added them up and came to about three
quarters of an hour; wasn’t that your mental processes rather than a
wild guess?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no, no. You asked me a question and I said I would
have to guess it. You know it is really amazing to put hours together.
Mind you, 5 months have elapsed already, and to try to put these hours
together you have got to fluctuate. How can you be sure?

Mr. HUBERT. That is true, but——

Mr. SENATOR. You have got to fluctuate. It is strictly all guess work.

Mr. HUBERT. That is true, but your attention was directed specifically
to these time lapses, not 5 months ago, but on that very day.

Mr. SENATOR. They were all guess work, they were all supposedly. I had
to give guess works.

Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying now is that the times that you
estimated then were guess works even on that very day as to the times
on that very day? You were examined, weren’t you?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. About 3, 4, or 5 o’clock in the evening?

Mr. SENATOR. And I have always said I would have to guess the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Even as to that day you would have to guess the time?

Mr. SENATOR. That Sunday?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I always have to guess.

Mr. HUBERT. On Sunday you said you had to guess the time as to the
earlier part of the day?

Mr. SENATOR. I had to guess the time Saturday, I had to guess the time
Sunday when he woke me up. I was only guessing it was around 3 o’clock
in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. You see the reason why I am bringing that to your attention
is that you stated a moment ago that it is difficult for you to recall
these things after 5 months. But I was inviting your attention to the
fact that your memory had been directed to these intervals of time for
the first time not today, but on that very day, and your answer to me
is that even on that day you were guessing as to the intervals of the
earlier part of the day; is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. Of times?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Of times.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a fair statement?

Mr. SENATOR. If a man doesn’t see a clock, or doesn’t see a watch, what
else can he do? What else can you go by?

Mr. HUBERT. All I am saying is that even on the 24th when the police
and the FBI asked you about these segments of time on that same day,
your statement to us is that even then you were largely guessing?

Mr. SENATOR. I would have to guess the approximate times. If you can
tell me if you don’t see a clock or a watch, how do you tell?

Mr. HUBERT. You might be able to tell by remembering what TV program
was going on at the time. Do you, at any particular time?

Mr. SENATOR. At that time I believe it was something about the late
President, but I don’t just recall what it was, but I believe it was——

Mr. HUBERT. Practically everything that day was. You don’t remember any
specific part?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t; no. I don’t remember any specific part.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack look at it, too? I think you said he did. Did he
make a particular comment as to a particular part then being shown?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was the last time you saw Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me get this straight. Were you awake, did you wake up
on Sunday morning before Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Sunday morning? Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have an actual recollection of that, or are you
stating this because it was almost always your practice that you did
wake up before Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. I always—I would say 95 percent of the time I was up
before him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But on this day do you have any recollection?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know. He was asleep because when I got up he was
still in bed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got up, as I understand; you made some breakfast
for yourself?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You did not?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I had coffee. I made coffee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Coffee?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In this period between the time you got up and the time
that Jack left the apartment, did you remain in the apartment the
entire period?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I was still in my shorts when he left the apartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you visited by anybody?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That day?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or that morning?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know which are the neighbors in that apartment? Let
me start over again? You lived at that South Ewing address on that very
same floor right next to Jack for 11 months, approximately?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before this Sunday we are talking about. Now, did you know
any of the other people who lived in the apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. Just to say hello, but that is about as far as it went.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Sidney Evans?

Mr. SENATOR. Sidney Evans?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. If I did, I don’t know them by name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about a man named Malcolm Slaughter?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They work for the Red Ball Freight Company or Motor
Express, truck drivers apparently.

Mr. SENATOR. Did they live there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. They were supposed to; yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. If I did, I don’t know them by name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know the people who lived across the hall from you?

Mr. SENATOR. When you say across the hall, it was a =U=. That was just
by the U shape.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A balcony sort of a situation?

Mr. SENATOR. A balcony, but it was a =U=. In other words, when I walked
out of my door, if I kept walking and went over the bannister I would
hit the ground. There was nobody facing me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about on either side?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack was on one side. Then there were some girls on the
other side. The next apartment over there were three girls, something
like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That =U= that you are talking about, is it sort of a
stairwell, is that it? The =U= is on one floor of the stairwell?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there were three suites on the landing that you people
were on? There was the old suite that you occupied, Jack’s suite which
you were living in on the 24th, and the suite occupied by some girls?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; then it went down further. That wasn’t the end of
the strip.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a hallway, wasn’t there?

Mr. SENATOR. No; there was a balcony.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A balcony?

Mr. SENATOR. A railing—I mean you are outdoors. There is nothing
concealed. It was just a railing and you are looking outdoors.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you opened out onto this balcony?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Along this balcony, how many other suites were there along
that balcony?

Mr. SENATOR. Running our way, you have got to transplant in your
mind—in other words, say that I am facing my door right now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. And the balcony goes =U=-shaped like this. Do you follow
me? In other words, this is all space out here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Everything in front of you is space?

Mr. SENATOR. Space. Now right past mine, if you turn to the right of
mine, then you walk down another balcony. See, there are balconies on
this side plus balconies this way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now along this same level that you were on, and
following the whole set of balconies around on the same level, how many
different——

Mr. SENATOR. The entire level.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. How many different?

Mr. SENATOR. This is another guesswork. I would say, I would sort of
estimate around a dozen places, a dozen apartments.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now these dozen different apartments, was there a single
stairway that led up to that level, or was there more than one stairway?

Mr. SENATOR. No; there was two stairways. There was one from the front,
there was one level that come up South Ewing. In other words, you drive
around through the back where you park your cars and come up this way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Another stairway?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on this level how many of those dozen suites there
perhaps—how many of those people did you know?

Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t know any. I never had a conversation with any of
them. Now I said hello to the girls next door, but I never talked to
them, never had a conversation with them. Of course, they were young
girls, not of my category. And the people on the sides, I didn’t know
any of them. In other words, anybody who walked in, you know, you would
say hello whether you knew them or not. But there wasn’t a conversation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, I want to carry this on a little bit from what
happened after Jack left the apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. I promised him that we would stop at 5 because he expressed
the fact that he was somewhat fatigued. He has been up since 2:30. I
think rather than get into another segment we might adjourn for the
day. You were turning to another subject?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I was going to take him up to the time when he left the
apartment.

Mr. HUBERT. That I think would be another subject.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, the interval between when Jack left and——

Mr. HUBERT. We have it now to the point where Jack has left the
apartment, and I think that is a good stopping point. It is a quarter
past 5 and I had promised we would stop at 5.

Mr. SENATOR. I am not mad at you.


TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR RESUMED

The testimony of George Senator was taken at 8:35 a.m., on April 22,
1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W.
Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s
Commission.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Senator, you will understand that this is a
continuation of the deposition which was begun yesterday, and that
Mr. Griffin and I, who are examining you, are doing so under the same
authority and under the same conditions as were indicated to you at
the beginning of the deposition yesterday. Likewise, I take it that
you understand, unless I hear to the contrary that you are still under
the same oath which you took at the commencement of the testimony on
yesterday; is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the end of the session on yesterday we reached the
point where on Sunday, November 24, you had left your apartment or you
were leaving your apartment, as I recall it. Your testimony was that
Mr. Ruby had already left. I think you fixed, but just for the purpose
of continuity at the moment, would you now try to fix the approximate
time at which he left?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean when I left?

Mr. HUBERT. No; when he left.

Mr. SENATOR. To me, I thought it was somewheres between 10:15 and
10:30. Of course, I found out hereafter in the courtroom that I was
wrong, but this at that time was the approximate figure that I had that
he left.

Mr. HUBERT. You told us yesterday that whatever time it was, your
thought was that it was approximately three-quarters of an hour after
he received the call from Little Lynn?

Mr. SENATOR. No. At the time he left—in my courtroom statement there I
fixed the time at approximately 10:15 or 10:30. That is where I thought
he had left around that time.

Mr. HUBERT. I ask you now to fix it not in point of clock time but in
point of how many hours or minutes it was, or parts of hours it was,
after the long distance call from Little Lynn in which you understood
that she asked for $25.

Mr. SENATOR. I would have to say it would probably be approximately
somewhere, I imagine somewhere between three-quarters to an hour. Now
this is about as close as I can think of it.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you base that upon two considerations, at least
that you stated to us yesterday. That he was not yet dressed.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. When Little Lynn called?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And that he got dressed and cleaned up, washed up?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And then spent some short, relatively short period of time
pacing around, as you said?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Before leaving. And that you estimated yesterday I think it
was about three-quarters of an hour.

Mr. SENATOR. Three-quarters of an hour. I mean this is just an
estimation.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, when he left he told you he was taking the dog Sheba
down to the club?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And he made no other comment?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say what time he was coming back?

Mr. SENATOR. No; there was no mention of anything at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what did you do next? How long did you stay in the
apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. After he left I’m still sitting around in my shorts yet.
I’m not dressed or not washed or anything outside of having a cup of
coffee. I had coffee.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have TV on?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I’ll tell you, after he left I was reading the Sunday
paper.

Mr. HUBERT. And you cut off the TV?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I didn’t have the TV going. I was just reading. I
read the paper, and from there I washed, shaved, got dressed, and took
a ride downtown, and as I say, this place, the Eatwell——

Mr. HUBERT. How long after Ruby left did you leave?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say it was about three-quarters of an hour, I
guess, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you went directly to the Eatwell?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You used your Volkswagen, I think you said?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you park, do you remember?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I parked right by the Eatwell.

Mr. HUBERT. There is a parking lot there?

Mr. SENATOR. No; it is right on the street. You know Sunday there is no
difficulty.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then take it from there. Tell us what happened.

Mr. SENATOR. So I went in there. I sat down there. Now, this is the
place that I go every morning, you know, rather Sunday or Monday
because I don’t like to sit indoors. So I went there and had a cup of
coffee. Then the first thing—then I had another cup of coffee. Now, on
my second cup of coffee I heard the girl, the waitress—now where she
got her information from I don’t know. It had to be either telephone or
radio, I don’t know which. Maybe they had the radio on.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice any kind of a radio of any type in the
restaurant?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they usually have any?

Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, what happened?

Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge. The first time she said she heard
that somebody shot Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. Was she speaking to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no, it was loud; but it happened to be she was near me.

Mr. HUBERT. There were other people in the place?

Mr. SENATOR. Not a lot. There were others you know, the usual morning
Sunday business in the restaurant is sort of minute. So what I did when
I heard that, I called up the lawyer. I was going to give him the news.
I figured he would probably be sitting home, you know, Jim Martin, who
happens to be a friend of mine. But when I called him. I spoke to his
daughter and she told me her dad and mother were in church. Dad would
be home in half an hour. I said all right, maybe I’ll call him back.

A short while later, the same girl, the same waitress hollered out that
the man—she wasn’t pronouncing the name right, the Carousel Club, but
I sort of got the drift of the name and she hollered Jack Ruby killed
Oswald. This is what she come up with later.

Mr. HUBERT. How much later?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say about 5 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. But it was after you had called Martin?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; after I called Martin.

Mr. HUBERT. You called Martin right away?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I was going to tell him that. I didn’t think he would
be—of course, I didn’t know he was going to church or anything.

Mr. HUBERT. He is a close friend of yours?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He is an attorney there; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, then?

Mr. SENATOR. Then when I heard that again, then I went up to see him.
Of course, I froze in that chair there. I said my God, I didn’t know
what in the world to think. Then I went up there and I no sooner got
there, he had just got there, I don’t know, I think a moment or two
before me. His wife and daughter had just come out of church.

Mr. HUBERT. You went to his home, you mean?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I went to his house. I told Jim and he said, “I heard
already. I saw it on TV.”

Mr. HUBERT. He was already at his house, you said?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he was home already.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after your phone call to him do you suppose you
got to his house?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he lived quite a ways. I would probably say it was
about a 20-minute ride.

Mr. HUBERT. You left the Eatwell just as soon as the girl announced
that the man who had shot Oswald was Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. I finished my coffee. I had about a half a cup left,
something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not attempt to call Martin again?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t call him. I just went direct. I figured if he
wasn’t home I’d wait for him.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your reason for wanting to see Martin?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, after all, this was my roommate. No particular
reason. I happened to know he was a lawyer.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to him as a lawyer or as a friend?

Mr. SENATOR. As a friend, as a friend. So I went up there and said,
“Jim, what in the world are we going to do?”

Mr. HUBERT. I take it from what you said a moment ago, “After all, he
was my roommate”, that you felt some concern for yourself.

Mr. SENATOR. I’ll tell you how I felt. I knew after this had happened,
I thought it was best that I volunteered than somebody come after me.

Mr. HUBERT. You thought that somebody would be coming after you?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, eventually they would have to. Eventually somebody
would have to be coming after me. After all, I was his roommate.

Mr. HUBERT. I assume you were going to see Martin really to seek his
advice as a lawyer as well as a friend?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; what to do. What should I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that true of the phone call as well?

Mr. SENATOR. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Was that motivation true of the phone call to Martin as
well?

Mr. SENATOR. No. The first call, I was just going to tell him that I
heard that Oswald was shot, which the girl told me. But on the second
time—I didn’t——

Mr. HUBERT. You realized your position at that time as being his
roommate and that gave you concern because you thought that the police
might be picking you up?

Mr. SENATOR. Sure.

Mr. HUBERT. And you thought you had better have the advice of a lawyer?

Mr. SENATOR. To ask him what to do. Should I go down there or what?

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do in fact?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, we went down there. We went down there and, of
course, we had a tough time getting in. When we got down the place was
just jammed.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you at Martin’s house, speaking to him?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say maybe 5 minutes, maybe 10 minutes something
like that.

Mr. HUBERT. And did you in effect ask him what you should do?

Mr. SENATOR. I asked him what I should do and I thought it would be
best to go down. He thought so, too.

Mr. HUBERT. It was your suggestion that it would be best to go down, or
his.

Mr. SENATOR. I think it was a combination of both.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, within about 5 minutes the decision had
been made?

Mr. SENATOR. 5 or 10, something like that. I’m not sure of the exact
time.

Mr. HUBERT. The decision had been made to go down to the police
department. Now, what was the purpose of going down there?

Mr. SENATOR. I went down there, I thought it would be best if I go down
there than to be picked up, because after all, I’m his roommate and I
know they are going to eventually pick me up, because I was living with
him.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the idea was that you were going to go down
there and say, “Now look, I’m George Senator. I was a roommate of Jack
Ruby’s and do you have anything to ask of me?” That was it?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say it was in the nature of that; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Incidentally, a moment ago you said that you were sleeping
with Jack Ruby, and in some circles sleeping with someone is——

Mr. SENATOR. I said I was what?

Mr. HUBERT. You were sleeping with Jack Ruby.

Mr. SENATOR. I was sleeping with him?

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that.

Mr. SENATOR. I never said that, never.

Mr. HUBERT. I misunderstood you then.

Mr. SENATOR. You sure did.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not mean——

Mr. SENATOR. You sure did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did I hear that right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I did not catch it.

Mr. SENATOR. You sure did.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, if I did hear that I was wrong about that?

Mr. SENATOR. You definitely were wrong. You definitely were wrong. I
don’t even remember this incident being said.

Mr. HUBERT. That is all right. I just wanted to get it clear, because
some people might misunderstand the phrase, and I would not want that
to be misunderstood if it were not true.

Mr. SENATOR. It definitely isn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. So when you got there, what happened?

Mr. SENATOR. The place was mobbed, and, of course, I believe there were
a couple of police attendants by the elevator as we got off.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go, in fact?

Mr. SENATOR. Actually, I didn’t know where to go. We went upstairs.

Mr. HUBERT. What entrance, do you remember?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I guess the front entrance, we went up.

Mr. HUBERT. You went to the Chief of Police office, or what office?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what office I was at.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whom you reported to or whom you were with?

Mr. SENATOR. First we were mobbed. I told these people, these two
policemen, whoever they were I don’t know, I told them who I was.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were they stationed?

Mr. SENATOR. They were right by the elevator as you got off.

Mr. HUBERT. As you got off on one of the upper floors?

Mr. SENATOR. One of the floors. I don’t remember what floor it was on.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were not mobbed, as you put it, or you
did not speak to anybody as you came into the building?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. On the ground floor?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But as you got off, whatever floor it was, two policemen
stopped you; is that the idea?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I was with Jim Martin.

Mr. HUBERT. And when they stopped you, they asked your name I suppose?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you told them?

Mr. SENATOR. Told them who I was. And then, you know, the place was
mobbed and there was a bunch, whoever these people were, reporters or
whatever, there were some of them there. They happened to overhear it,
and they mobbed me. They mobbed me.

Then eventually two great big policemen came over and one grabbed me on
one side of the arm, you know, they looked like giants to me, and one
on the other side and they took me into this room. Remember I told you
they put me into a little sort of solitary room.

Mr. HUBERT. That is on the same floor?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. And I don’t remember how long. I mean I had no way
of knowing time that I was in there in this room there waiting for
somebody who was going to—they said to wait there, I don’t know. They
kept me in this room. Then somebody finally approached me. They wanted
a statement.

Mr. HUBERT. You got there, I suppose, about 20 or 30 minutes after
leaving Martin’s house?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say something like that, between 20 and 30 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were, almost immediately after getting off on one
of the upper floors of the building, mobbed by the press group and
taken by these two policemen?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And put into a room on the same floor?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And then was Mr. Martin with you?

Mr. SENATOR. He was with me, but he never, you know, when they took me
to this room they wouldn’t let him in.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask to go in or to remain with you?

Mr. SENATOR. He says “I’m his lawyer”; he was my lawyer. But we still
were separated.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask that he be allowed to remain with you?

Mr. SENATOR. He wanted to get in.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you remember whether he actually asked to get in with
you?

Mr. SENATOR. It seemed like he wanted to get in. I mean I don’t
remember the exact words that he said, because they wouldn’t let him
in, so apparently he was trying to get in too.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether you were placed under arrest?

Mr. SENATOR. No, never placed under arrest.

Mr. HUBERT. When you were escorted to this room and sat down, was the
door locked?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you told to remain there?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any guards on the door?

Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge. I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you handcuffed?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say you don’t know how long you remained there?

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t tell. This was a little tiny room. It looked
like where they keep some inventory books—not books, probably paper
goods or something like that. It was a very small room.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you hear what was going on outside the room?

Mr. SENATOR. No, couldn’t hear a thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Did the room have any windows in it?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was the light on?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. It was very small. It was a very small room. As I
say, it must be a room like they keep paper goods, things of that
nature, or something like that in there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did the police search you or frisk you?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. They did not take anything away from you?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I wasn’t under arrest at all.

Mr. HUBERT. And what was the next thing that happened?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, finally, I don’t remember this man’s name, you
may have a note of it, I assume he was a detective. He was in plain
clothes. He questioned me.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he question you in that same room, or take you outside?

Mr. SENATOR. No, he questioned me in that room.

Mr. HUBERT. Just one man?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember his name?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he connected with the Federal Government or the State
government?

Mr. SENATOR. I assumed he was local.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you found out since who he was?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I didn’t. I think he must have been a detective of
some nature. I mean I don’t know what his classification was, because
all I know is, he was in plain clothes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of his inquiry?

Mr. SENATOR. It was, you know, what happened from the time of the
shooting up until the present time. That was the inquiry.

Mr. HUBERT. The time of the President’s shooting?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, from the President to——

Mr. HUBERT. Did he more or less ask you to go over and to account for
your time during that period?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean where I was?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Am I right then in saying that his inquiry was to ask you
what you had been doing since the President had been shot and what Ruby
had been doing too, I suppose?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Both of you?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He asked you concerning the events in your life during the
afternoon of Friday, November 22?

Mr. SENATOR. I believe that is how it started.

Mr. HUBERT. And on the night of the 22d and the early morning of the
23d?

Mr. SENATOR. There is only one thing that slipped my mind to tell him,
and that was the paper issue, the newspaper issue and the billboard,
“Impeach Earl Warren”. That was the only thing I forgot to tell him
that slipped my mind.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him that you had gotten up, that Jack had
wakened you early in the morning and had asked you to go out with him?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he questioned me on that or not. I don’t
remember if he did or not on that. I don’t remember if he did on that.

Mr. HUBERT. But if he did——

Mr. SENATOR. But I had been in a pretty shaky mood that day, most
naturally nervous.

Mr. HUBERT. But your point is that if he did ask you about whether you
had gone out with Ruby in the early hours of the morning, you did not
tell him about the concern of Ruby over the Bernard Weissman ad, nor
did you tell him about taking the pictures of the Earl Warren poster?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I didn’t tell him that.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what was your reason for not?

Mr. SENATOR. No particular reason.

As a matter of fact, I’m sorry that I—I should have told him. If I
thought about it I should have told him that because I think this was a
benefactor for Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say that the reason why you did not mention these
two episodes was forgetfulness?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

I was a pretty shaken boy. I’m not used to something like this. This is
something that will shake you up.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it that you were shaken up and thought it best not to
mention anything about it, or that you actually forgot?

Mr. SENATOR. Just forgot.

Mr. HUBERT. And I assume that that officer then carried you through the
events of Saturday morning after you got up and Saturday afternoon and
Saturday night and Sunday morning, is that not so?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And at that time did you tell him what you had done on
Saturday afternoon?

Mr. SENATOR. No, because I didn’t—I don’t think I did because I don’t
know if I was questioned on that. As a matter of fact, to the best of
my knowledge I don’t think I was questioned at any time what I did on
Saturday afternoon, to the best of my knowledge that I can think of.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean they questioned you about what you did on Friday
night and Saturday morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And Sunday morning, but they omitted Saturday afternoon?

Mr. SENATOR. The best that I can recollect, it was more important of
the events of when I had seen Jack, and the times that he got home and
when I got home.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him concerning all of those matters
approximately as you have told us to date?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean from the events of Saturday?

Mr. HUBERT. Friday, Saturday and Sunday up to the point we have reached
in this deposition.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, but you are more thorough than they are.

Mr. HUBERT. How long do you suppose that interview with the police
officer lasted?

Mr. SENATOR. I have no idea.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened next?

Mr. SENATOR. From there he took me to the FBI on the same floor in
another room, and his story was about the same.

Of course, if I remember right, I think he goes back like you started,
you know, my name——

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the FBI examination of you?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember his name. Yes, the FBI man. And if I
recall right, I think he asked me, you know, my name, how old I was,
you know, like you started off.

Mr. HUBERT. He went into details as it were?

Mr. SENATOR. Pardon me?

Mr. HUBERT. He went into more detail?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; because the details—in other words, he started
from where I came from, my name and how old I was and things of that
nature, like you did.

Mr. HUBERT. And I think you said that his examination was thorough as
it were.

Mr. SENATOR. Well, there was more to it.

Mr. HUBERT. In what way? Did he ask you for more details?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he went into my personal life, you know, like you
started off.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that his examination of you was along the
same lines as mine has been?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because—well, in certain parts I would say, but I
think yours are more meticulous—is that the proper word—than his. In
other words, yours are more thorough.

Mr. HUBERT. But he asked you to account for your time?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you told him about going out in the morning with Jack,
having been awakened by Jack and going out, and so forth?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I forgot that. In other words, when they shoved me
from one to the other, it was the same way.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you do not have any recollection of having told
the FBI that Jack had awakened you in the morning and that you had gone
out with him?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember if I did or not. I may have. I don’t
remember if I did or not, now, on that.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any distinct recollections as to whether or not
you mentioned the Earl Warren poster or the concern of Ruby about the
Bernard Weissman advertisement?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember if I did or not. Maybe I did, maybe I
didn’t. I don’t remember that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you about accounting for your time on Saturday
afternoon?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember that, either.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did this interrogation by the FBI man take?

Mr. SENATOR. Of course, it’s guesswork again. I would say maybe it took
a couple hours.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it one man or more?

Mr. SENATOR. One. I would say now——

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell either the State officer who interrogated you
or the FBI man who interrogated you that you had a lawyer and that his
name was Martin?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I did.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not ask that your lawyer be present?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. What occurred then after the interview with the FBI man was
over? What happened?

Mr. SENATOR. Then they let me go. They released me.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did that, in fact, the FBI man or a State officer?

Mr. SENATOR. The FBI man. If I remember right, I think the FBI man
said, “That is all there is.” That is all there was of the interview.

Mr. HUBERT. And you were permitted to leave?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you left?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say it was between 6 and 7 at night because I know
when I got outside again it was dark.

Mr. HUBERT. Was anybody waiting for you?

Mr. SENATOR. No; there was nobody waiting for me. Somebody gave me a
message, or handed me a message, I don’t remember who it was, that Jim
Martin would meet me, the fellow who brought me down, the attorney who
brought me down.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that a police officer?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; you mean who handed me the message?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a written message? I asked that because you said you
did not remember who handed you——

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember who it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Which would indicate it was written, you see?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember who it was. All he said, he would meet me
there. In other words, he was going to meet me across the street from
the——

Mr. HUBERT. Was it a verbal message?

Mr. SENATOR. I think it was a written message. I don’t remember who
gave it to me.

Mr. HUBERT. You just put it in your pocket or something?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I read it.

Mr. HUBERT. You read it and threw it away?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I knew I would meet him. So I met him. As a matter
of fact, I was with three attorneys when we met, either two or three
attorneys.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Griffin, do you want to ask any questions on this
segment that I have covered this morning up to this point?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I want to go back a little bit. When Jack Ruby left
the house Sunday morning, you were dressed, were you not?

Mr. SENATOR. I?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were not dressed?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I was in my underwear.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got down to the Eatwell Restaurant, can you tell
us which of the waitresses, management people, were on duty?

Mr. SENATOR. Which of the waitresses?

Mr. GRIFFIN. And management people were on duty.

Mr. SENATOR. I would say there were probably two or—no; not glancing
around or anything of that nature, I would probably say there were 2 or
3 waitresses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You eat there regularly?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I stop there every day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you know these waitresses?

Mir. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So what I am asking you is to tell us which of the
waitresses were on duty.

Mr. SENATOR. I could recollect the one who said it when I heard her say
it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which one was that?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know her name. I know her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you not know the names of any of the people who work in
there?

Mr. SENATOR. This girl here, I mean I know them all, but I don’t know
them by name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know any of them by name?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know any of them by name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the names of the owners?

Mr. SENATOR. I know the owner. I know his first name. I don’t know his
last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is that?

Mr. SENATOR. His first name is Jim. There is a father and son. Jim is
the father and Charles is the son.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old would you say they are?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say Charles must be—of course, they
weren’t there that day. Charles I would probably say is in—could be
in I guess his late thirties, I’m not sure, and the father I would
probably say is maybe in his late sixties or early seventies.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe the waitress that was on duty?

Mr. SENATOR. She was a woman about, I would probably say in her late
forties or maybe early fifties, dark haired if I remember rightly, and
I believe brown eyes. I don’t know how to describe her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know a waitress there by the name of Helen?

Mr. SENATOR. Helen? A little short girl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know what she looks like.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know one. The other is a little short girl I think
by the name of Helen. I think it is Helen. See, now once in a while
they wear badges but I can’t remember one from the other, outside of
their faces. I always say hello to them. On the other hand, I never
take that much notice of who’s who.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, the waitress who was on duty knew that you were
Jack Ruby’s roommate, did she not?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t think she did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The people at the Eatwell knew——

Mr. SENATOR. Some know me but I don’t think this one knew me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They know Jack as well as they know you, don’t they?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know if they know him. See, Jack and I never
went in there, I mean together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack eats there regularly?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or ate there regularly, did he not?

Mr. SENATOR. No; Jack don’t eat there because he don’t like their type
cooking. No; Jack don’t eat there. Now I go there every day. I go
there every day, I go there every morning. I have coffee, I would say,
probably 7 days a week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any recognition by anyone at the Eatwell while
you were in there?

Mr. SENATOR. There was very few people in there that morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But of the people who were there, did any of them appear
to recognize that you were connected with Jack Ruby when they learned
over the television set that Jack Ruby had——

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say to the best of my knowledge, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that would indicate that nobody said anything to you
about it. You did not have anything to——

Mr. SENATOR. No, they didn’t say a word to me about it. Now, if they
did or not, as I say, to the best of my knowledge, no. Now I can’t
quote myself, if I am that correct or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am curious as to any other people that you thought of
contacting after you heard that Jack had shot——

Mr. SENATOR. No; that was it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, you——

Mr. SENATOR. I called up Jim because I happened to know Jim and Jim was
an attorney.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You thought about calling Jim before you knew who it was
that had shot Lee Oswald?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know at the time that you tried to call Martin
that it was somebody associated with the Carousel Club that had done it?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean Jack Ruby, my roommate?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Now, you say it was after you called Martin that you
learned that it was Jack Ruby who had shot Oswald, but you said as I
understand it somewhere between the time you learned Oswald was shot
and you learned Ruby had done it, you heard something about it being
someone from the Carousel Club.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You did not?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that at the time you called Mr. Martin, you had no idea
who shot——

Mr. SENATOR. I called him because it was local news. That is why I
called Jim.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think of calling anybody else?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think of trying to get ahold of Jack Ruby to tell
him about it?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because Jack left home shortly before that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some idea where he was?

Mr. SENATOR. No; none whatsoever.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you walked into the police station, I understand
you to say that you were mobbed by members of the press? Did you say
anything to those members of the press?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, they ganged me so and everybody was throwing
questions at me, and I don’t even remember the things that I answered
because they asked me so many things and so many people were mobbing me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you were answering their questions?

Mr. SENATOR. I was answering some of them, whatever they were asking me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say it was that you answered questions?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. Maybe about 5 minutes I guess before two
policemen nabbed me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any of the questions they asked?

Mr. SENATOR. No; God, they was throwing them left and right. I couldn’t
keep up with them. I just couldn’t keep up with them, what they were
talking about. I was just in circles, you know. Now how can I answer
these questions there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see reports in the newspaper the next day or that
evening about what you had said down at the police station?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t. I didn’t see no papers that evening. As a
matter of fact, I never even saw the run, I—still to this day—I’ve
never seen the TV of the shooting. I have never seen that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went out to Martin’s house, did you have any fear
for yourself?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any fear or thought that the police or
someone might try to implicate you?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you describe yourself as being shaken up when you
were at the police station——

Mr. SENATOR. Something like this, I would say the normal person it
would make him nervous. Here I have gone through a half a century
already and I have never had any incidents in my life, and I would say
the normal person would be shaken up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t have any more. Wait a second. Let me ask this.
When you came downtown with Mr. Martin, did you come down in his car or
your car?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I came down in my truck. No, I think I came down
in his car. I’m not sure but I think I came down in his car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you parked, whose car it was where you
parked downtown?

Mr. SENATOR. Either parked on Commerce or Main Street, one of the two.
I’m not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Near Harwood or near Pearl, or were you right in front of
the police station?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; we were down further, just to grab a parking
space. I just don’t remember how far down it was, but I would assume,
I think we walked, I don’t know, maybe two or three blocks to my
knowledge, something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you come by the Western Union station?

Mr. SENATOR. Going up with Mr. Martin?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Either way, either going downtown or walking back to the
police station.

Mr. SENATOR. I think we come up Commerce. I’m not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me then be more direct about this. Do you have any
recollection that day of seeing Jack Ruby’s car downtown?

Mr. SENATOR. No; that I have never seen, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t think I have anything more, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. Before I pass on to another aspect, I think there is one
point that needs a bit of clarification. Mr. Griffin asked you whether
or not you considered calling Ruby when you heard that Oswald had
been shot, to convey the news to him as you conveyed it to your other
friend, Mr. Martin. You said that you had not because you didn’t know
where he was; is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I knew he left the house, you know, before I did.

Mr. HUBERT. You have also testified that he had told you that he was
going to take the dog to the club.

Mr. SENATOR. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, you knew he was at the club or at least you had
some indication?

Mr. SENATOR. He could have been there. Now he told me he was going to
the club.

Mr. HUBERT. And the club was just about a block away?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. So when you didn’t get Mr. Martin, you didn’t try Ruby at
the club?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You knew the number of the club?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you any comment to make as to why you didn’t call Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. No particular reason. I didn’t think of it, because when
he left the house he said he was going to take the dog to the club and
most naturally I heard the conversation he was going to the Western
Union, so who knew where his whereabouts would be.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, you didn’t know his whereabouts after you
called Martin?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right, there was no particular reason. It just
happened to be that I thought of Jim Martin.

Mr. HUBERT. All I want to do is to give you an opportunity to state
for the record why it was that you did not next think of calling your
friend and roommate whose approximate location you knew?

Mr. SENATOR. It just didn’t enter my mind, that is all. I just didn’t
think about it. There was no particular reason why.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this, Mr. Senator. Was it your practice to
spend time socially with Jack Ruby other than when you saw him at the
apartment? Did you and he do things together?

Mr. SENATOR. No; first of all I’m out most of the time. When I get up
in the morning, I mean he is still sleeping when I got up, and I don’t
see him in the daytime. Maybe on rare occasions something will happen,
but the overall picture, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you say you are out most of the time. Is this in
connection with your business?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a set of calls that you make every day?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I make calls.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Regular customers that you call on?

Mr. SENATOR. Customers, or at times probably get new ones.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on Saturdays or Sundays you do not work?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. With whom do you spend your time on Saturdays and Sundays
normally?

Mr. SENATOR. Nothing in general. Once in a while I would meet Jim
downtown because Jim Martin comes downtown on a Saturday, like a lot of
lawyers do. They come down about 10, 10:30, 11 o’clock and they check
their mail or any messages come in, such as that. Incidentally Jim
Martin’s office is right across the street; of course, he just moved
recently. It was at the Davis Building which is across the street from
the Adolphus Hotel on Main. He has been there for quite a number of
years to my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who would you list as your friends in Dallas outside of
Jim Martin and Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, the people I stayed with who were friends of mine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us their names?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Jean and Lindy Lauve, a fellow by the name of Bill
Downey, Tom Howard, the attorney. I don’t say I associated with him but
he is a friend of mine. Another lawyer by the name of Mike Barclay: he
is a friend of mine. Not that these are complete associations that you
are with them every day or so, or things of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But are there other people whom you see more often and you
are closer to than Barclay and Howard?

Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly. Of course, every now and then an
out-of-town friend of mine would come in, a traveling man; if he
happened to be in Dallas I would see him, or he may call me. In other
words, I’ll put it this way—I had a particular hangout.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?

Mr. SENATOR. That was the Burgundy Room. I used to go there quite often.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is in the Adolphus Hotel?

Mr. SENATOR. That is in the lobby of the Adolphus Hotel. When I used
to go in, you know, the latter part of the afternoon, around 5, used
to always run across friends that you know and we would always have a
talk session or something of that nature there. Of course, I had many
friends that came in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you would say that you saw Barclay and Howard and
Martin more often than you saw the other people?

Mr. SENATOR. Martin more so than the others. But the others, I’d see
them every now and then. Like the trial I’d seen them down at the
courthouse and things of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what about the Lauves?

Mr. SENATOR. The Lauves, those are people who I stayed with, who kept
me up when I didn’t have a place to stay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you see them more often than you saw Howard and
Barclay?

Mr. SENATOR. I stayed there every day. I was living there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean prior to the shooting.

Mr. SENATOR. Prior to that on rare occasions, on rare occasions. One
time I used to see them quite often. Of course, that is when I was
traveling.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But at the time that Jack Ruby shot Lee Oswald, of all
the people you have mentioned, Jim Martin was the person you felt the
closest to?

Mr. SENATOR. He was a close friend of mine. I used to see him almost
every day, especially more so during the trial.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But what I am trying to get at is was there anybody else
to whom you felt equally as close?

Mr. SENATOR. I had—let me put it this way—I had a lot of good friends.
I don’t know how you want to classify what you call close. Many friends
I had, good friends.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Apparently of all the people you knew in Dallas, the one
that you felt most inclined to call when you heard that Oswald had been
shot was Jim Martin.

Mr. SENATOR. It happened to be I thought of Jim Martin, yes, and I
called him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And if you had reached him at that time, I suppose you
would have gone out to his house or you would have carried this on
further. You have had some conversation with him about it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I imagine so. I would imagine so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am getting at is you didn’t really have to convey
the news to Jim Martin or anybody else.

Mr. SENATOR. No; it just happened to be it was local news, you know. It
is like probably a thousand other people did, called their friends “Did
you hear this, did you hear that.” It could be anywheres in the country.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When the President was shot did you call anybody?

Mr. SENATOR. No; because I didn’t know. I was told.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But when you were told did you call anybody?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no; because the reason I didn’t call anybody, it was a
weekday. Now this is only guesswork. It was a weekday, and, of course,
I assumed that everybody knew it as fast as I knew it or probably
faster than I knew it, with the many thousands of people who were in
that locale, they knew it before I did.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, let’s continue from the point that you left the
jail. Did you meet anyone?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who?

Mr. SENATOR. I was with Jim, I met Jim Martin and another attorney who
I had only met for the first time and I don’t remember his name.

Mr. HUBERT. They were waiting for you or you met them outside?

Mr. SENATOR. They told me they would meet me somewheres.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?

Mr. SENATOR. We met at a bar across the street from the courthouse.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the name of the bar?

Mr. SENATOR. I think it was the TV Bar.

Mr. HUBERT. The message you had was that they would meet you there, is
that right?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did go there and talked to Martin and the other
lawyer?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the other attorney.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with them?

Mr. SENATOR. If I recall right, I would say we sat in that bar and had
two or three beers, if I remember right. I think I said to Jim “I don’t
have a place to sleep or a place to go” because I was afraid to go home.

Mr. HUBERT. You told that to Jim Martin?

Mr. SENATOR. I told that to Jim, and I believe—wait a minute now—I
believe, I am not sure but I think I went to his house and he said he
would put me up on the couch if I was afraid to go anywheres, which I
was. From there on in I was afraid to go home.

Mr. HUBERT. Why?

Mr. SENATOR. Why was I afraid to go home? Well, I was just scared, that
is all.

Mr. HUBERT. Of what?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know of what, but I was scared.

Mr. HUBERT. Obviously you were scared that somebody might try to hurt
you?

Mr. SENATOR. Very possibly, yes; on something like this. Now who or
what I don’t know but that was the instinct I had. As a matter of fact
I was scared for about 10 days after that.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you were scared for 10 days after being——

Mr. SENATOR. In other words, for about 10 days I was afraid to sleep
in the same place twice. Who I was to fear I don’t know, but just the
normal thing, I was afraid.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say you slept at different places every night?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; until I finally moved in with Jean.

Mr. HUBERT. What were some of the places you slept in?

Mr. SENATOR. I slept at Jim’s a few times. I checked into an
inexpensive hotel one time. I slept at another fellow’s apartment one
time and then I finally went to Jean’s and stayed there, Jean Lauve.
She said she would put me up because she and everybody else knew I was
scared. You asked me what I feared. I don’t know who I feared or what I
feared but I just——

Mr. HUBERT. You honestly feared that somebody——

Mr. SENATOR. I was just in fear that is all which is a natural instinct
in a situation such as this.

Mr. HUBERT. I am not saying it is not natural.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But I am trying to see if you had any idea in your own mind
what you were afraid of. Now obviously you were afraid of being hurt.

Mr. SENATOR. Certainly I was afraid.

Mr. HUBERT. Possibly being killed?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now of who or what I don’t know. It could be a
crackpot. I don’t know what it could be.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you give some consideration to the thought that whoever
had been involved with the killing of the President might want to kill
you?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I didn’t know who to fear. It was just a
natural instinct. I would imagine anybody in the same situation would
probably fear something. It was just a natural thing for a human being
to do.

Mr. HUBERT. I am not criticizing you, Mr. Senator; at all. I am just
trying to find out the reason.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I had no reason or any particular thing. There was no
reason for it.

Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned one, that a crank might try to hurt you.

Mr. SENATOR. A crank might. Yes; I can’t measure what or who. It was
just a fear.

Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it your thought that there might be some group of
people who might want to hurt you?

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t say it was a group or what it is or who it may be.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that you don’t know of any group?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But didn’t it cross your mind that there might be a group
who would want to get rid of you for some reason or other?

Mr. SENATOR. This didn’t enter my mind that it was any group or
anything of this nature here. All I knew is I had a fear. I don’t know
who, but something. I was just afraid, that is all.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you arm yourself in anyway?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I never armed myself in my life. The only gun I ever
had is when they had me overseas. That is the only time I ever had a
gun. I never carried a knife or a gun in my life.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do during these several days when you were in
effect afraid? Did you move out in the open or did you stay——

Mr. SENATOR. I was afraid of the nighttime, not the daytime. In other
words, I wanted—I didn’t want to be in an isolated place anywhere. It
is not that I wasn’t out at night or daytime, which I was, but I didn’t
want to be in an isolated place. In other words, I wouldn’t want to be
walking down a lonely street or something like that because that would
scare the life out of me. But around groups or something like that, I
didn’t fear it that much. Now what I feared I don’t know, but it was
just a natural thing I feel any individual would fear.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you communicate that fear to Jim Martin?

Mr. SENATOR. Not only to him but to many of my friends. I said, “I’m
just afraid.”

Mr. HUBERT. It was for that reason that several of them put you up?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right. I told them I was afraid. They said “What
are you afraid of?” You know people say, “What are you afraid of?” I
said, “I’m just scared, that is all”—and who wouldn’t be?

Mr. HUBERT. So your friends also were asking you as I have been as to
what would you be afraid of. That is a fact isn’t it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they asked me, “What are you afraid of?” I said, “I
don’t know, I’m just afraid, that is all.” I can’t say who I am afraid
of. I don’t know who I am afraid of.

Mr. HUBERT. I know that you wouldn’t know necessarily individuals, but
you must have done something——

Mr. SENATOR. Or groups, individuals or groups as you mentioned. I can’t
place my finger on it.

Mr. HUBERT. But what I am suggesting to you is that your fear came from
the thought that any individual or group that had anything to do with
either the slaying of the President or the slaying of Oswald may have
you in mind next?

Mr. SENATOR. No; my thoughts didn’t run that way. My thoughts were
nothing but fear, and I didn’t have my mind on any groups or anything
like that. I just didn’t know. It might be an individual crackpot
walking the streets, who knows, he doesn’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I think that is a very understandable reason that you
gave us as to the crackpot.

Mr. SENATOR. It could be. I don’t know what it could be.

Mr. HUBERT. It went beyond that though, didn’t it?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Just your fear of a crackpot?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. That is all it was?

Mr. SENATOR. When you say “beyond that,” what do you mean “beyond that”?

Mr. HUBERT. That your fear went beyond the mere fear that a crackpot
would hurt you, your fear and your thought about the matter went to the
point that some people other than a crackpot might——

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t think that way.

Mr. HUBERT. Then are you willing to say that it was only your fear of a
crackpot?

Mr. SENATOR. I use “crackpot” as one but I don’t know how to describe
it. Who knows what it could be. It could be an individual walking the
street, I don’t know. When I was scared I had no particular thing in
mind. It was just I was scared, that is all.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it ever occur to you during this period when you were
frightened that Jack Ruby might have been set up by someone to kill
Oswald?

Mr. SENATOR. Run that back again. Let me understand it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it ever occur to you at anytime after the shooting and
when your fears began to develop that Jack Ruby might have been part
of a plot to kill Oswald, and that there were others involved in the
matter?

Mr. SENATOR. None whatsoever.

Mr. HUBERT. That never occurred to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was not any part of the basis of your fear?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand you then, you considered right from the
start that this was an individual act on the part of Ruby, unconnected
with anyone else?

Mr. SENATOR. Run your words again. I’ve got to follow you.

Mr. HUBERT. I say as I understand it then your thoughts from the very
beginning were that Ruby’s action was his own and that no one else was
connected with it?

Mr. SENATOR. Did you say his actions was his own when this thing
happened?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; and that you never considered that anyone else was in
it at all but Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. No; definitely not. I never thought of anything such as
that.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t understand your answer. Pardon me. You wouldn’t
think of anything such as what?

Mr. SENATOR. To me he wasn’t connected with anybody whatsoever of any
nature.

Mr. HUBERT. You think that now and you have always thought that, is
that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he wasn’t connected with anyone.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, your fears could not have been based upon the
thought that anyone that he was connected with would want to hurt you,
obviously, since you never thought that he had any connections?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t have any. Let me put it this way. Even today
I still have a certain fear. Now you ask me what I fear today, I don’t
know. This is something you just don’t erase out of your mind, that is
all. This is not a little thing; this is a big thing.

Mr. HUBERT. After that Sunday night, when you talked to the lawyers for
awhile, you went home I understand to Jim Martin’s?

Mr. SENATOR. If I remember right, I’m not sure but I think Jim put me
up because I was afraid to go home and I didn’t have a place to go to.
If I remember right I think he did. I think I went to his apartment,
his home rather.

Mr. HUBERT. I am moving to the next few days, Mr. Griffin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever given any consideration to the thought or to
the possibility that someone else might have been associated with Jack
Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the killing of Oswald?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not asking you whether you ever believed such a thing
but whether you ever explored that possibility in your own mind?

Mr. SENATOR. No; never could think of anything such as that. Jack was
a true American. He loved his country. This is for sure. He loved the
land that he lived in as I have told you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated before that there were a lot of things Jack
didn’t talk to you about.

Mr. SENATOR. That Jack would talk to me about?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That he did not, Jack didn’t talk to you about everything
he did?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack lived in the show business type. This is his life. He
lived in the glamour of the show business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you feel that Jack talked to you about everything that
he was doing?

Mr. SENATOR. Who can answer that? How could I answer that? How could I
really answer that and know?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, sometimes you associate with a person and you know
he is the kind of person who doesn’t go out and talk about everything
he is doing, in fact that he is the kind of person who is reticent to
talk about some of the things he is doing.

Mr. SENATOR. I would say Jack was the type that would not hold back to
my knowledge, that would hide anything. I don’t think he would hide
anything from me. I can’t say positive but I don’t think he would.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, he didn’t discuss his relationships in the Vegas
Club or in the Carousel Club with you.

Mr. SENATOR. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To any extent, did he?

Mr. SENATOR. Look, his money parts he isn’t going to detail to me how
much he is taking in and things of that nature or who he owes or what
he don’t owe. I mean I wasn’t confided in that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you about any of the problems he was having
at the club?

Mr. SENATOR. He had problems, you know, he had problems with his sister
because they were of the same nature. They were cat and dog fighters.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he having any problems with the Federal Government?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I assume he was. What they were I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then it is——

Mr. SENATOR. What I mean to say, the Federal Government, you mean tax
problems?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I am certain he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But I take it these were not things that he discussed with
you?

Mr. SENATOR. No; you could be friendly, friendly and all that there,
but you don’t know. I mean they don’t tell you everything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So what I am suggesting again or asking you again is if
Jack was not the kind of person who about certain matters which he
considered personal or important to himself wouldn’t talk about it.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think he would discuss everything; as a
matter of fact I don’t think there is any individual who will tell you
everything. I don’t care who they are. I am certain, I know there are
people, every little thing, I mean there are certain things they keep
to themselves. I would probably say like you, you, or anybody else.
They are not going to tell you everything about their whereabouts,
their notes, what they owe or what they don’t owe or things of that
nature. Everybody has a little secret or two.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To put it another way, you wouldn’t describe Jack Ruby as
the kind of person who as a matter of his constitutional and emotional
makeup had to tell you everything he was doing? There are some people
like that.

Mr. SENATOR. You mean would he tell me everything he was doing?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; there are some people who are the kind of people who
just somehow have to unload almost everything they are doing to other
people. Now Jack Ruby wasn’t that kind of person, was he?

Mr. SENATOR. Of what he thought you mean or his thinking?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or his problems and so forth.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think he would; no. I don’t think he would unload
everything. I am certain there are things that he may have owed or
certain discussions he may have had that I am certain he wouldn’t
discuss with me. I am certain he didn’t want me to know everything
there was to know, you know, like anybody else would. There are certain
things that an individual keeps to themselves, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. I want to pass to the next day, which is to say Monday,
the 25th, unless you can advise me now that there was nothing of
significance that occurred on the night of the 24th after you had met
with Mr. Martin and Mr. Barclay.

Mr. SENATOR. You mean Sunday night?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Barclay wasn’t with me Sunday night.

Mr. HUBERT. There was another attorney.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I didn’t say Barclay. I don’t remember his name.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember his name?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see Tom Howard that night?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if I did or not. I don’t remember if I saw
him or not that night.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to bed early?

Mr. SENATOR. You see I can’t quote if I did or didn’t. I just don’t
remember if I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you went to bed at Jim Martin’s
house?

Mr. SENATOR. No; it could have been 11, 12, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. As I remember it, you said you met them at about 6 or 7. It
was dark in any case?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. You stayed about a half hour and you left?

Mr. SENATOR. What?

Mr. HUBERT. You stayed about a half hour in the beer place?

Mr. SENATOR. It may have been a half hour, it may have been an hour, I
don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. And you left and went to Jim Martin’s?

Mr. SENATOR. I believe we went to Jim Martin’s house. I think that I
slept there that first night.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you meet anyone else that first night or speak to
anyone else that first night, that is November the 24th, 1963?

Mr. SENATOR. November 24?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Are you talking about Friday?

Mr. HUBERT. No; November 24 was a Sunday.

Mr. SENATOR. No; because I was wrapped up. I was wrapped up in the
courthouse all that day.

Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean to say after you left the beer parlor, which I
think you said was the TV Bar?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You said you think you went to Jim Martin’s house?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember if I met Tom Howard. I just don’t
remember the incident but I am almost certain that I went there to
sleep.

Mr. HUBERT. You went to Jim Martin’s house?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What I am asking you is that prior to the time——

Mr. SENATOR. Did we meet anybody else?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t remember but I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s come then to Monday morning.

What happened then?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, if you can let me interrupt you here before
you get to Monday morning.

When you met with Martin at the TV Bar, did you all talk about Jack
Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; there was discussion of it, that there and the
events. Of course, he asked me what happened after I got in there. I
told him. This detective, I guess, I just don’t remember who the man
was, they interrogated me and I told them the FBI interrogated me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Martin say anything to you about Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t remember. I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate whether or not he had seen Jack while you
were being interrogated by the police?

Mr. SENATOR. If I remember right, I think he said he seen him at a
glance behind us, I think it was the same window that I saw. They had
him in this room there and I think there were three or four men there,
something like that, but there was this glass partition. In other
words, you could see in. I think he saw him. I am not sure but I think
he saw him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Tom Howard at the TV Bar at that time?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. I remember there was Jim, there was this
other attorney, but I don’t remember if Tom was or not. In other words,
I don’t want to quote and say he was or wasn’t because I just don’t
remember. He may have been now. He may have been there. I just can’t
think if he was or not that night. He may have been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what your conversation was about at the TV
Bar?

Mr. SENATOR. No; of course, I told him—he asked me what happened, you
know. I told him I was interrogated by the local police and the FBI.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about Jack’s defense?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now Saturday night, the 23d, you spent some time with Bill
Downey and Mike Barclay?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see them?

Mr. SENATOR. We were sitting at a bar.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which bar was that?

Mr. SENATOR. I think we were in the Burgundy Room and then we went to
another one there and had I think either one or two beers and then we
went home. At least I went home anyhow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the other bar that you were in?

Mr. SENATOR. It was very seldom I ever went there. I’m trying to think
of the name of it. It is a short name too, and I can’t even put my
finger on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What street was it on?

Mr. SENATOR. On Fitzhugh.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located?

Mr. SENATOR. It was on Fitzhugh. It runs off of, I think—down where
Travis is?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No.

Mr. SENATOR. Fitzhugh and Travis. I should know the name of it but I
can’t get it off my tongue. It is a short name too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that anywhere near Hall Street?

Mr. SENATOR. No; this is uptown about I would probably say from the
downtown area I would imagine it would probably take you 10 minutes to
get up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you mean the time you spent with Downey and
Barclay—what did you talk about with them that night, Saturday night?

Mr. SENATOR. We talked about the occurrence of the shooting of the
President, that there. It was just a gloomy night. That is why I didn’t
want to stay long. I said I wanted to get home and they said they
wanted to get home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you had a date to meet them at the Burgundy Room?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I think I met them both by chance there. Now I am not
sure if I had a date to meet Bill or not, I don’t remember, but I think
Mike just walked in casually. I mean just happened to walk in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Bill married?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about Mike?

Mr. SENATOR. Mike; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they know Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Who don’t know Jack in Dallas? They all knew him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about Jack that night?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how much time would you say you spent with them
Saturday?

Mr. SENATOR. We went to that bar, I would roughly say maybe a half hour
to three quarters of an hour, I would guess around that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was at the Burgundy Room?

Mr. SENATOR. No; that is when we went to this other place and had a
beer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All together, the time you spent at the Burgundy Room and
the other place on Fitzhugh how much time did you spend with them?

Mr. SENATOR. Maybe an hour and a half.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then when you went home what did you do?

Mr. SENATOR. I went home and went to bed. I think I took a newspaper
with me, if I am not mistaken and went home and went to bed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get to bed at what you would consider an early
hour Saturday night?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I would say it was somewhere around 11.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much sleep do you normally get, when you go to bed,
how much sleep do you normally put in in a night?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, of course, that would go according to what time you
went to bed, you know. It could be 4, 5, 6, 7 hours. I doubt if I ever
stay in bed more than 8 hours the most, if it ever happens that long,
which is rare.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So would it be your estimate that on Sunday morning you
arose by 7 o’clock?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think I got up that early.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you didn’t get up that early, then would it have been
because you got to bed late that night after 11 or after midnight?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I must have been home about 11 o’clock that night. I
think I read a little bit but I know I was in bed before 12. I think I
was in the apartment around 11. I got home around 11.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t think you got more than 8 hours sleep that night
or do you?

Mr. SENATOR. I doubt if I got more than 8 hours sleep.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then I suggest to you that in all probability you got up
on Sunday morning before 8 o’clock.

Mr. SENATOR. I would say around 8. Now mind you I got home 11 o’clock;
so I assume I got in bed maybe around 12. Now mind you it is not
necessarily that you fall asleep right away. Look, there is many a
night that I toss and turn for 4 or 5 hours and didn’t fall asleep,
which is rare, but it has happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have trouble sleeping that night?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I mean when I went to sleep, when I fell asleep I
slept well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. Now let’s see. I think we were at the point of Monday
morning, and I should like you to tell us what happened on Monday
beginning with the time you got up on Monday morning. I think you said
you slept at Jim Martin’s house.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do the next day?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I got up and I drove him to his office and I think
from there I went——

Mr. HUBERT. In your car?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I drove him down, and I dropped him off, and then I
went and had coffee. I don’t remember if it was around 9 or something
like that. He gets down about 9 in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anything happen at the coffee shop?

Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing particular, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Did the people there talk about Ruby and your connection
with him?

Mr. SENATOR. Talk to me about him? No; they didn’t say anything, but
they knew, you know. The people who knew me knew.

Mr. HUBERT. But nobody said anything to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But the fact that you had been his roommate.

Mr. SENATOR. No; it was pretty silent. It was pretty silent.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened the rest of the day? What did you do that day?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I just roamed around in a fog that day, nothing in
particular.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t attempt to do your normal business?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I wasn’t in any condition for business. I didn’t feel
that good.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember seeing anybody that day at all.

Mr. SENATOR. I am certain—who I saw I don’t remember but I am certain
that I seen people; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned that sometime you saw Howard and you don’t
know whether you saw Howard the night before.

Mr. SENATOR. It is very possible that I may have seen Howard the next
day. I may have seen him. Now where or when I don’t know, you know.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you see him about? Can you tell us what the nature
of the conversation was?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I heard that Howard was getting the case, the Jack
Ruby case.

Mr. HUBERT. So you went to see him about what? Put it this way, did he
call for you?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Or did you just decide to go and see him?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t call for me.

Mr. HUBERT. You went to see him?

Mr. SENATOR. I saw him sometime during that day.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us what it was about, what you talked about?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t believe it was anything particular that we talked
about except I heard that he was getting the Jack Ruby case.

I don’t remember the particular conversation at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps you can tell us this then. Since he didn’t call
upon you, you called upon him, what was the purpose of your visiting
him? To find out the status of it?

Mr. SENATOR. Of me?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. To find out the status of Ruby’s defense, to see if you
could help, to see if you could throw light upon it, to find out what
was going on?

Mr. SENATOR. Everything in general was going on, you know. The
photographers were around and the newspapers were around, and I believe
he was down at the jailhouse. It is a conglomeration of things going on.

Mr. HUBERT. But you went to see him, and I suppose that was the purpose
of the visit, that was the purpose in mind.

Mr. SENATOR. No; there was no purpose in mind. It was just going to see
him. When you say the purpose in mind—I was so mixed up myself I didn’t
know what was going on.

Mr. HUBERT. I am not trying to confuse you.

Mr. SENATOR. There was no general purpose in mind.

Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying to us is then that you just went to see
him, Mr. Howard, and that there was no purpose in mind.

Mr. SENATOR. No particular purpose in mind. I saw him. I saw Jim Martin
later on that day.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you excuse me a minute. Will you take over.

(Short recess taken.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will simply ask you to remember everything that Mr.
Hubert has been in the practice of repeating before we proceed.

Mr. SENATOR. If I can remember it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To the effect that you are still under oath and we are
continuing under the same circumstances that we began.

I believe we were talking about Monday, and you had indicated that on
Monday you went to see Tom Howard.

Mr. SENATOR. I saw him. I just don’t remember where. Monday there was
so much excitement going that when I say excitement, of the occurrence
of the day before, and with your photographers around town and your
pressmen and whatnot, you know, and the incoming of the FBI and things
of that nature there, you know, it was a crazy cycle, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to any members of the Ruby family that day?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I saw them that day. I can’t quote every
instance.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his employees?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I went up—let’s see, the club was closed Friday,
Saturday and Sunday, and I think they did open Monday, and I think
I was up there Monday night, if I am not mistaken, and, of course,
going up there you had all your photographers, especially the ones
from Europe and various parts were coming around. Of course, everybody
wanted to see what the Carousel Club was. You know, it was just a
mixed-up thing, so many things were going on there, and you were just
roaming here and there, and, of course, people were questioning. A lot
of people wanted to take pictures of me and this thing here. It was
just a jammed-up, mixed-up day.

I know I saw Tom Howard that day. I don’t remember where I saw him, if
I called on him or what it was because so many things were going on
there and my mind was in a muddle even with that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The questioning that took place on Monday, did it have to
do with what you had done on Friday, Saturday and Sunday?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What Jack had done on Friday, Saturday or Sunday?

Mr. SENATOR. No; there was nothing in general. I mean there was nothing
particular. I mean all my questionings—I mean all my questionings—I had
that Sunday you know, with the local detective or whoever the gentlemen
was, and the FBI man.

But Monday, when they wanted to know about Jack Ruby, they wanted to
see pictures of him. They wanted to see the club of his. They wanted to
see whatever they could get their hands on to see. They wanted to know
this about him and that about him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they want to know if he was involved with anybody
else, whether there could have been a plot or a conspiracy to kill
Oswald?

Mr. SENATOR. I am certain that probably would run through the minds of
everybody.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they asking questions about that?

Mr. SENATOR. They have asked me so many questions that I can’t even
remember to think of them, you know, because there were so many
questions thrown at you. And when they are throwing them at you, the
general questions, they wanted to see the club, they wanted to see
pictures, who were the strippers, this, that and whatnot. There was
nothing precise except the curiosity of the things they wanted to see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now when you talked with Howard, of course, Howard
indicated to you that you probably would be a witness for Jack, did he
not?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember the incident at that time. I don’t
remember if he said it or not because I would probably say it was a
little too soon at that time, the happenings, and I assume that Howard
was kept pretty busy at the beginning, probably going to see Jack Ruby
and this. You see, people were grabbing everybody.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When is the first time that you recall talking with anyone
about being a witness for Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. At that time it didn’t even enter my head. I wasn’t
thinking about that even. But as time went by, and I can’t specify just
how much time went by, I believe it was when Mr. Belli came into the
case. See, I don’t remember just how long it was from there until they
got this Belli.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: After you heard that Jack had killed
Oswald, did you have any idea, did you think, why did he do it?

Mr. SENATOR. I hadn’t the slightest idea. I couldn’t imagine why. I’ll
tell you why I say that. Because he never at any time ever gave me any
indication of anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you since then——

Mr. SENATOR. I just couldn’t picture this man doing it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?

Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t think. I couldn’t picture him being of this
nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And there was nothing that he had done that you had seen
up to that point that would indicate that he had any thought about it?

Mr. SENATOR. No, none whatsoever. As a matter of fact, he had never
even mentioned this Oswald to me during this occurrence even, but he
had talked about the President, and he had talked about Mrs. Kennedy
and the children, I don’t know how many times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you think he was any more disturbed than what you——

Mr. SENATOR. He was plenty disturbed. He was plenty disturbed. The man
was crying. People have seen him, not only I, people have seen him
crying. As a matter of fact, one of the kids in the club one night when
we sat in a corner related he was crying and very, very disturbed. I
believe it was one afternoon he was in there, if I remember right, I
think it was the colored boy, Andrews, if I am not mistaken, I think
said he saw him in a solemn condition or whatever condition you want to
call it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when you were interviewed by Elmer Moore?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you living at that time? Who were you staying
with at that time?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t want to be quoted, but I think I was staying with
Jean Lauve then. I am not sure, but I think I was there at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did the interview take place?

Mr. SENATOR. At the FBI building. I can’t think of the name of the
building, but the FBI people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The office of the Secret Service? Moore is with the Secret
Service.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, the Secret Service. I meant to say the Secret Service.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he call you and ask you to come down?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He had left a message at the Carousel or he may have
been up there. As a matter of fact, I can even show you his card if you
would like to see it. I’ve still got that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think you were staying with the Lauves at
that point?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I was there. I’m not sure. I don’t remember just
where, but I think I was there at that time, because when Elmer Moore
called me, I just don’t remember how many days have elapsed by when he
called me, see. I think it was a few days that were elapsed by when he
called me and I think I may have been at the Lauves at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you return to work at any time before Moore——

Mr. SENATOR. Return to work?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; before Moore called you.

Mr. SENATOR. I hadn’t worked at all from this thing here up until I
told you I went to work the other day. If you want to classify me, I
was just existing here and there, that is all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your employment up until the time that the President was
killed was with the Texas Postcard & Novelty Co.?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that your own company?

Mr. SENATOR. I was classified as sales manager and partner, but with no
say. In other words, I had no money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were the people, the backers?

Mr. SENATOR. The backers?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. The people? A fellow by the name of Mort Seder and Ernest
St. Charles.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to get involved in that?

Mr. SENATOR. In the postcard business?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; with them?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, Ernest St. Charles found out—see, he had a card rack
like a lot of drug stores do or gift shops or things of that nature. He
had found out that this fellow wanted to sell his business because this
was a minute business with him because, he had another one, you know,
which was much larger or whatever, the household goods or something of
that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As I understand it, the Texas Postcard & Novelty Co. was a
going business.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before Seder and St. Charles got involved in it?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it was going. It was a going business. And he
wanted to get rid of this business, because I just don’t remember if
he couldn’t handle it or he couldn’t handle both of them, I think
it was. And this business here, he had to get rid of because it was
deteriorating a bit because it wasn’t getting the service. It wasn’t
being handled for the service. In other words, his business had slipped
a certain amount.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Seder and St. Charles put up some money to acquire
this business?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, they put up the money; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how much money did they put up?

Mr. SENATOR. I think they put up somewheres around $1,500 apiece, and
I think they took a note for $1,500. I think the business went for
$3,000, if I can remember right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What assets, what kind of assets did they acquire?

Mr. SENATOR. The cards.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No office space?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no. See, he is in business in a little sort of a
garage like in the back of his house. In the back of his house he has
got this sort of garage-like thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who are you talking about?

Mr. SENATOR. The fellow that had it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what his name was?

Mr. SENATOR. I should remember his name. I can’t even think of his name
right now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, maybe you will think of it later. Did Seder and
St. Charles have another business which they operated while they——

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this business was a small little thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was a sideline with them?

Mr. SENATOR. Just a little thing. It wasn’t even, you know—it was a
small little business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Seder’s main business?

Mr. SENATOR. Seder was a traveling man who sold men’s apparel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was St. Charles’ main business?

Mr. SENATOR. St. Charles, a drugstore.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you acquire the postcards and novelties from?

Mr. SENATOR. The novelties, you see, there was a few novelties that he
had left over in this thing here, in this business here, which weren’t
that good, and I got rid of them at a loss, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you buy any——

Mr. SENATOR. There wasn’t that much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you buy any more novelties to supplant those?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you buy those?

Mr. SENATOR. Some I bought locally and some were bought out of town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And I take it the postcards, you had some source supplying
the postcards too?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Seder and St. Charles between the time that
Jack Ruby killed Oswald and the time that Elmer Moore talked with you?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him by telephone?

Mr. SENATOR. Who?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Seder and St. Charles.

Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it then that you did not feel any obligation to
report back to them and tell them that you were not going to be——

Mr. SENATOR. I was obligated, but the condition I felt, it was just a
no-care attitude any more.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any sort of a draw from this postcard and
novelty company?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your draw?

Mr. SENATOR. It was $75 a week, but I was drawing $61.45.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue with your draw after Jack——

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t continue after Jack killed Oswald?

Mr. SENATOR. Nothing. I didn’t do anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after Elmer Moore talked with you, you were then
interviewed some time later by two FBI agents, Mr. Rawlings and Glonek?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you were staying at that time?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I was staying with Lauve. The first approximately
10 days you know, I was just jumping around. But from there on in I was
with Lauve.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stay with the Lauves?

Mr. SENATOR. I must have stayed with them, I would probably say
approximately around 5 weeks, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you leave Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. I left Dallas, I think it was about the end of the first
week, if I remember right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of what?

Mr. SENATOR. January.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And when did you return to Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. It was the latter part of February. I think it was the
last week in February.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were away from Dallas, where were you?

Mr. SENATOR. At my sister’s.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Freda Weisberg in New York?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your occasion for returning to Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. I knew I had to be a witness because I was called on the
first bond hearing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was your occasion?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. For returning?

Mr. SENATOR. I had to come back as a witness.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the bond hearing?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no. I was at the bond hearing before I went away. I
think I was at the first bond hearing. I don’t remember the date, but
it was in December sometime.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that before or after you talked with Agents Rawlings
and Glonek that you appeared at the bond hearing?

Mr. SENATOR. That was before because I remember one day that I met one
of the agents. As a matter of fact, I was in the lobby of the Adolphus
Hotel and one of the agents hollered out, “Hi, George” and I turned
around to see who it was. It happened he was talking to some other
agents and they were departing, they were going home.

So I walked over to him and I asked him who would I notify if I wanted
to, who would I notify with the FBI that I was going to leave, that I
wanted to go home but I wanted them to know where I was going, and he
mentioned, call Mr. Clements.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time of the first bond hearing, who was
representing Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. Mr. Belli, Joe Tannenbaum—not Tannenbaum, Joe Tonahill.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anyone else?

Mr. SENATOR. Tom Howard was in it, but at that time he had no say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened that Howard was not given any say?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I am not sure how to relate it, but I think that
Earl Ruby, who was in Detroit then, was still in Detroit, spoke to some
lawyer I think in Chicago now. I think it was in Chicago, looking for a
lawyer, a big lawyer for Jack Ruby, and this lawyer to my knowledge, if
I understand it right, was quoted to get Mr. Belli.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about Tonahill? How did Tonahill get in?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. Tonahill, it seems, must have been a friend
of Belli. The relationship I don’t know, how they met or something of
that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Jack Ruby between the time you last saw
him that Sunday morning, the 24th of November, and now?

Mr. SENATOR. In the jail.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to him?

Mr. SENATOR. In jail, sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you talk with Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Various times, various times that Sheriff Decker would let
me up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him before the bond hearing?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I did, yes. I think so. I think I was up there. I
mean I can’t quote dates. I don’t even remember what the date of the
bond hearing was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the first time you went up to see him?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go up with anybody?

Mr. SENATOR. No, I went up alone. The reason for that, the reason I
say I went up alone is because nobody was up there, allowed up there,
besides the family and maybe very, very close friends because Sheriff
Decker wouldn’t allow anybody in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you spend with Jack that first time?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. You know, they have got a limitation on
you. I don’t remember just how long I talked to him. It wasn’t too long
because they let you know that you have got to go.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what happened on this occasion.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember what it was. First of all, I never talked
to him, I would never ask him what happened. I never talked about that.
I talked about anything else, and he was telling me, he said he wanted
me to look up certain people, the locales, tell them where he was and
things like that there, like sisters and Gordon McLendon which he asked
me to go, whom I never saw, never got to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s relationship with Gordon McLendon?

Mr. SENATOR. He just knew him. There was no relationship. He mentioned
a lot of names. He mentioned a lot of names to call them for the bond
hearing. I remember this. He was trying to get certain people to come
to the bond hearing. And he was rattling off a lot of big names. He
rattled off the manager, I don’t remember the name, from the Statler
Hilton, anybody who was prominent, such as I think the rabbi too if I
am not mistaken.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack appear to want to make bond at that time?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. He didn’t discuss that, but I do know—I
can’t answer unless you want me to surmise something, guess on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Unless you have some information which leads you to think
how he felt.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t have information on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to the lawyers about whether they were
really serious about making bond?

Mr. SENATOR. I think the lawyers were trying to get bond for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with them?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I will tell you something. The lawyers didn’t discuss
anything with me at no time. They said, “George, we are going to use
you as a witness,” which I knew they wanted me for that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There came a time when Howard was no longer part of the
case?

Mr. SENATOR. He was part of the case; he was still part of the case
when I left, you know, but how big his say was I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got back for the trial, however, he was not a
part of the case; is that correct?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I think he was out of it before I got back. I am not
sure, but I think he was. I don’t think he was in the case.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you returned for the trial, did you have occasion to
talk with Howard at all?

Mr. SENATOR. I saw him on certain occasions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever learn how he happened to get out of the case?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he got out of the case—I mean I really don’t know,
but I feel he got out of the case because he was—there was nothing,
practically, to speak of. I guess that is about the best way to
describe him. He had no say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it something he had told you?

Mr. SENATOR. What?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it something he had told you?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no. But he had no say any more. So I don’t know how to
classify his sitting there, just being there with no say any more, no
nothing. After all, when he originally started, he was the leadman, you
know, and then all the things materialized after that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times would you say you saw Jack Ruby in his jail
cell between the time that he shot Oswald and the time that he was
tried, actually went to trial, in Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. How many times?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. A guess?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Your best estimate. Try to give some thought to it.

Mr. SENATOR. Let me see now. I would say maybe 10 or 15 times, I would
guess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice any change in him over this period of time?

Mr. SENATOR. Sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first notice that he was changing; that there
was some change?

Mr. SENATOR. I saw him very few times, you know, previous to when I
went away, but his change—when I really noticed the change was after I
came back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was in February?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After the 18th of February?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. His voice was getting lower, and his head was hanging
down, and this is the way it was all the way up until the period, even
after the trial. I don’t know—I don’t know how to describe the words;
you call it deterioration or whatever runs through him; I don’t know. I
would never ask him anything like that, you know. I never spoke about
anything like that; anything but that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice a change——

Mr. SENATOR. He had lost weight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He had lost weight?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You noticed a change in his voice and something about the
way he carried his head?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything else?

Mr. SENATOR. And he lost weight. Of course, he quoted the Bible to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he ever done that before?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean to you; had he ever quoted from the Bible to you
before?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think so, that I can remember of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What passages of the Bible was he quoting?

Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t. He didn’t quote the passages, but he quoted
that he was reading the Bible. He didn’t quote any passages to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his manner of speech other than the deepness of
his voice? Was there anything about the manner of his speech?

Mr. SENATOR. What do you mean; the manner of his speech?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Coherence, his ability to carry through on a topic of
conversation. Was he able to discuss topics as lucidly as he had
discussed them previously to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I’ll tell you, it got so that there was a hesitation.
The words were even silent. There was no speaking at times; just, you
know, like, you know. In other words, you know, there is very little of
him I could see. I was looking through this little glass. I couldn’t
touch him or nothing. In other words, instead of his wall being
plaster, the thing was steel or iron, whatever it was; see what I mean?

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you and he would be separated?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes. I couldn’t even touch him. It was impossible.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of him could you see? We are going to have to get
this on the record. This is the problem.

Mr. SENATOR. In other words, I am standing up here and I am looking
through a glass about like this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are looking through a little glass door?

Mr. SENATOR. And like this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A little glass window?

Mr. SENATOR. A window something like this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe 12 inches long and 8 inches high or something?

Mr. SENATOR. Approximately. This is a guess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At about eye level?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it’s eye level. And under it are these perforations
that you have to talk to; holes. You know; perforated holes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Perforations in a door of some sort?

Mr. SENATOR. No door; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Just a wall?

Mr. SENATOR. Just a wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you could not see Jack other than through that window?

Mr. SENATOR. No. That is the only thing. It is just a solid——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Steel?

Mr. SENATOR. A solid steel wall. At one end was a door, but that was
solid, too. In other words, when you looked at the door you might as
well say it was part of the wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was the cell that Jack was kept in?

Mr. SENATOR. No; this was no cell. I don’t know what cell he was in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack stay in there?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He was brought in?

Mr. SENATOR. This is a hallway. This was a narrow hallway. Apparently
they didn’t let you know the cell he was in. I never saw him in a cell.
I have never seen any cells. They’d bring him down in, and, of course,
I can’t see which way they are coming through. All I can say is they
are coming this way when I walk in, and this is this little hall, this
little hallway. I can’t see every bit of him, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were these always the conditions under which you
talked to Jack, even before you left Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. That is the only way I have ever seen him, from beginning
to end. That is the only way I could ever see him. In other words,
there was no time that I could even touch him to shake his hand;
nothing, because there was nothing but a solid iron or steel, or
whatever it was, wall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that, of course, you noticed the most
marked change in him when you returned to Dallas, and I take it from
that that, up until the time you left Dallas, you didn’t notice any
substantial changes in him?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say that there may have been a little—you
know, there may have been some change, but how much there was or how
much; I know this; I am certain within the man there would have to be
some change, because when I left already, how long has passed, maybe
5 or 6 weeks have already passed by. Within the feelings of himself,
which I don’t know, there must have been some change within him, you
know, which I sort of surmised. Now, how much, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has there ever been any time that you have talked to Jack
where he wasn’t coherent?

Mr. SENATOR. Take that coherent word and use another phrase.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You use a phrase that is more appropriate to you. I take
it you have some idea of what I am suggesting.

Mr. SENATOR. Well, when you say “coherent,” break it down to another
word and make it more simplified for me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anytime that you talked to him where it appeared
that he did not understand what you were saying to him?

Mr. SENATOR. I never noticed it, or even thought about it that way. I
don’t even know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there ever anytime when you would ask him a question
or say something to him and you would get back a response which did not
make any sense to you?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so; not that I can recall. I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anytime when you would ask Jack questions and he
would not be able to respond at all?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he was able to respond.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you at anytime talked with Jack about the events of
November 22, 23, and 24?

Mr. SENATOR. Never at anytime have I ever been at that jailhouse where
anything like that ever come up. I have never asked him, and I don’t
think anybody would to my knowledge, would ask him questions like that,
because this would be a hard subject to talk about. I would assume
probably in the condition that he was in and the locale, the placement
of where he is in, of what he is in——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever indicate to you any fear; has he indicated
any fear to you in the times that you have talked to him since he shot
Oswald?

Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t look fearful to me. Now I don’t know, you know.
I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I want to do now is go through with you some
documents. I have got a series of photographs and other things here,
and I want to ask you some questions about them. I am going to hand you
what has been marked for identification as “Exhibit 5304-A,” which was
used in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong. That is a photograph, and
I am going to hand it to you and ask you if you recognize where that
photograph was taken?

Mr. SENATOR. I am not familiar with it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize anybody in that photograph?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t. Where is it supposed to be?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I am asking you.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you look at the man who is tending bar? Do you
recognize him?

Mr. SENATOR. No; it is a pretty shady picture to see his face.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked as Exhibit
5304-B, which was also used in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong.
That is another photograph, and it shows a girl in a western costume
standing on a table. Do you recognize any of the people in that
photograph, or do you recognize where that photograph was taken?

Mr. SENATOR. No; never seen a place with elkhorns or whatever they are.
Is that a night club or a restaurant, that place?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I was hoping you would be able to tell us.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I’ll tell you with a guess; it looks like a
restaurant, according to the curtains. That is what it looks like to
me. I don’t even know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what has been marked as “Exhibit
5302,” and unless I indicate to the contrary, all of these exhibits
have been used in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong. That is a
photograph of a man. Do you recognize that man?

Mr. SENATOR. No; is he a Dallas man? I don’t know that man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then I hand you Exhibit 5303-A, and I would like you to
look over that photograph. It is actually a series of about 12 small
photos. Can you tell me if you recognize anybody in there?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I know it is the Carousel. These prints are pretty
small for my eyesight. I have seen him. I don’t know who he is, but I
have seen him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating a fat, obese man?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have seen him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you seen him?

Mr. SENATOR. At the Carousel. I believe these occurred, I think, when
they were having—what do you call that now? I think when they were
giving prizes away, if I am not mistaken, on this particular time, and
then sometimes they would have on Friday or Saturday, Saturday night,
amateur hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This would be amateur strippers?

Mr. SENATOR. Once in a while—there was one girl who would always bring
up, after she got through she would always bring up one fellow to do
the twist. Now this wasn’t every night; only this one girl when she was
on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of Jack’s stripteasers?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. As a matter of fact, I think I saw him do the twist
once.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That big, fat man?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. But I can’t see the faces here. But I can’t help but
recognize him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You can’t make out the faces in looking at those
photographs?

Mr. SENATOR. This is an M.C.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating the center photograph at the top?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is an M.C. This looks like Tammi.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tammi True?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The left-hand side in the third photograph?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. As a matter of fact, are they all Tammi’s? Yes; that
is Tammi. This girl is not clear enough for me to see. I am certain I
know her, but I can’t tell which one that is. That is about all I can
see there. The majority are all customers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you do not recognize any of the customers.

Mr. SENATOR. No, because they ain’t looking this way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now let me hand you Exhibit 5303-B and ask you if you
recognize any of the people in those photographs.

Mr. SENATOR. That is Tammi True.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The stripper that is shown in those photographs is Tammi
True?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the customers?

Mr. SENATOR. This you can’t see at all. This you can’t see at all.
I can’t tell from this. This is no way of seeing; this is no way of
seeing. This you can’t see hardly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I hand you Exhibit 5303-C and ask you if you recognize any
of the people in those photographs?

Mr. SENATOR. I know the stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that?

Mr. SENATOR. That is Kathy Kay, but I can’t recognize anybody from the
back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; now, Exhibit 5303-D; do you recognize anybody
in there?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is Little Lynn.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The stripper is Little Lynn?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; as I know her. You called her Karen. What is her last
name?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Bennett.

Mr. SENATOR. Bennett; yes. I don’t recognize anybody else here though.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Little Lynn before you began to live with
Jack Ruby the last time?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. All I know—see, I didn’t always come
there every night, you know, but I walked in one night and I saw her
there and, of course, I didn’t know who she was. She had already been
there a few days, I think, or something like that, which I didn’t know.
This is the one that, I guess you probably know, that came in with that
gun with no firing pin. I guess you heard about that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was at the trial, was it not?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or one of the hearings.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; she come in with this gun, which I believe didn’t
have a firing pin, and, of course, there was no ammunition, but it was
a blank gun. According to what I have heard around the station there,
that she had switched bags and was in a hurry or something like that,
and she didn’t even know the gun was in there, according to what I have
heard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You haven’t talked to her about it?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no. When that happened, she was being searched just as
you walk into the courtroom, and that is where they got her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you look at Exhibit 5303-E and tell me if you
recognize anybody in there?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know the stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that?

Mr. SENATOR. Joy Dale. The people, no. They are all facing the other
way. That is why I can’t recognize anybody.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now look at Exhibit 5303-F and tell me if you recognize
anybody in there?

Mr. SENATOR. This is Kathy Kay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The stripper is Kathy Kay?

Mr. SENATOR. Kathy Kay, and this is Joy on this side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Joy Dale on the right-hand side, a stripper?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And Kathy Kay on the left?

Mr. SENATOR. This is that big heavy-set fellow which I can tell. I
don’t know his name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The top picture in the center?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. And the cocktail waitress.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is the cocktail waitress?

Mr. SENATOR. Bonnie something. I don’t know her last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is she shown in the picture in the lower right-hand side?

Mr. SENATOR. Bonnie. I don’t know her last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t recognize anybody else?

Mr. SENATOR. Let me see. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I hand you Exhibit 5303-G. Do you recognize anybody in
there?

Mr. SENATOR. This is Kathy Kay, the stripper. Excuse me, not Kathy Kay.
This is Tammi True. That is an error. But I can’t see no faces there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5303-H. Other than the strippers,
do you recognize any of the other people in those pictures?

Mr. SENATOR. You don’t want the strippers, right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.

Mr. SENATOR. I am looking for the face here but I can’t see it. This
one I can’t see the face well. Whether I know him or not, I don’t think
so but I just can’t see their face well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now Exhibit 5303-I, other than the stripper and the fat
man who is shown there, do you recognize any of the people?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, Exhibit 5303-J, other than the entertainers, do
you recognize any of the people?

Mr. SENATOR. I can tell that this is Tammi True from the back. No, no,
I don’t. The M.C. I don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is the M.C.?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t even know his name. He was only there a short
while, this particular one here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me give you Exhibit 5303-K.

Mr. SENATOR. Where did you get this good picture?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the people shown there?

Mr. SENATOR. That is the cocktail waitress. I can’t distinguished who
it is. This sort of looks like Jack, but I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are pointing to——

Mr. SENATOR. But I am not sure. I’ll tell you, I am looking at the head
because it is sort of baldish.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the people in the foreground in that picture, you
don’t recognize any of them?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, Exhibit 5303-L. Other than Jack Ruby, do you
recognize anybody in there?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5300-A and ask you if you
recognize any of the people in that picture other than Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. Kathy Kay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the blonde on Jack Ruby’s right, or left as you
look at the picture?

Mr. SENATOR. This is a cocktail waitress. Her name is Alice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The girl on Jack Ruby’s left, Jack’s left but the right
side of the picture?

Mr. SENATOR. Alice, I don’t remember her last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had Alice worked for Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. I would say on and off for maybe a year and a half or two,
but I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack date Alice?

Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Alice every solicit up at Jack’s apartment?

Mr. SENATOR. I think she came there once for I think it was a job
interference. I think for some reason, I don’t know what it was because
I didn’t stay, but she was there once. She came there one afternoon. I
don’t know what happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5301-D. Do you recognize any of
the girls in that picture?

Mr. SENATOR. This is Joy Dale on the left and this is Little Lynn.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the right?

Mr. SENATOR. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the right of the picture as you look at the
picture?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes: Little Lynn on the right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am going to do, Mr. Senator, I am going to hand you
a set of photographs, 5306-A and 5306-B. These photographs are pictures
of memoranda that were made at one time or another. Let me ask you to
look at those. First, I will ask you a general question about these
memoranda.

Do you ever recall Jack Ruby having any memoranda pads similar to those
that are shown in those photographs?

Mr. SENATOR. No; with him, everything went on a piece of paper, it
don’t matter what type it was. He would keep his papers and notes,
everything else like he kept his money, all over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep some of his papers and notes at home?

Mr. SENATOR. It could be at the office or at home because he wasn’t
immaculate in where he kept things, things of that nature there. It
would lay here, lay there, lay in the office, wherever it laid. That is
the way he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any memoranda pads such as this?

Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. I can’t say yes or no, but not to my
knowledge that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to take messages for him at home?

Mr. SENATOR. Very seldom if the phone rang and all I would do is
write it on whatever piece of paper it might be. No particular paper,
sometimes even on a newspaper, whatever it was, whatever is close by.
I have seen those go on pieces of paper this big even, you know. It is
just no particular type piece of paper with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Nancy Barker might have been?

Mr. SENATOR. No; it could have been maybe somebody calling for a job. I
don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Joyce Harvey was?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Linda Bumwalt was?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Emma Ship?

Mr. SENATOR. No; the only thing possibly could happen, I may know
somebody by face maybe but not by name. This could be. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jean Bordon?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Archie Esquavill? Did you ever hear of him?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of a person named T. E. Smith?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I am going to hand you a series of photographs which
are marked Exhibits 5305-A to 5305-S. These are photographs of a
notebook which had a cover which said “Aladdin,” and I ask you first of
all if you have ever seen this Aladdin notebook?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I have. I mean, his things that he kept in
his pocket, I assume that is it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look through those photographs and look through
all of them, and I am going to ask you a general question whether you
recognize that notebook?

Mr. SENATOR. So far this stuff I have never seen, though I do know he
had books, you know, notebooks, but I have never seen the insides of
them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to read what is on those pages?

Mr. SENATOR. Some yes and some no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will ask you the question again: Do you ever recall
having seen this particular notebook?

Mr. SENATOR. I know he had a book. Now, I don’t know about the cover,
but I know he had a book. As a matter of fact, I think he had two or
three of them. But I am not sure of the cover part of it, but I do know
that he had a notebook of some sort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you Exhibit 5305-B, which purports to
be a photograph of a page of that notebook. Can you read the names on
there?

Mr. SENATOR. Leonard, isn’t that right? That is Leonard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I just want to know if you have difficulty reading them.

Mr. SENATOR. Frank Barber.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you do have some difficulty reading the names.

Mr. SENATOR. Frank Bourber or Barber.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me read the names to you and ask you if you recognize
any of them.

Mr. HUBERT. May I make this suggestion?

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. SENATOR. I know some of the names on there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting on that page?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Jack Ruby’s handwriting?

Mr. SENATOR. It probably could be Jack’s, I guess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But would you recognize Jack’s handwriting?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think, offhand, I would, but I assume these
probably are Jack’s handwritings, I guess.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, did you know Frank Barber?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack speak or did you know Milt Jaffe?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know of any friend Jack had named Barney?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Pauline?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Pauline Hall?

Mr. SENATOR. Now, you may ask me some names. I may know the face but I
may not recognize the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any people that worked at the Vegas Club?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, Pauline Hall; yes, I do. I am glad you mentioned that.
Pauline worked at times at the Vegas Club, if that is her last name.
I am not sure. Now, I know her first name was Pauline, so it might be
Pauline Hall, if that is her last name, but she worked at the Vegas
Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say she worked there at times?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; not steady. I wouldn’t say she worked there steady.
There were times I walked in there with Jack at night on a weekend I
have seen her working, and then there are other times I haven’t seen
her working.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Billy Brook?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Bobbie Patterson?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I have heard of that name, but I can’t think who
it is. I think I have heard of that name. I think I have heard of that
name Bobbie Patterson, but I can’t refresh my mind. It seems I have
heard that name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Howard Foster?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sammy Tucker?

Mr. SENATOR. No. Would it be easier, you know, what you want to do,
would it be easier if I could pick up the ones I knew?

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you could read them. Could you go through there and
pick out the ones you know, and indicate to me if there are any on
there you can’t read.

Mr. SENATOR. What is this? Is this Goody?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Grady to me, but I am not sure.

Mr. SENATOR. Fred Fillman, I don’t know who he is. You want me to sound
out the names, don’t you?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Just comment on the ones you recognize.

Mr. SENATOR. What does this say? It looks like Rita.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Ruth Shay.

Mr. HUBERT. You had better make reference to the document you are
talking about. Let the record show the comments of the witness are with
reference to Exhibit 5305-F.

Mr. SENATOR. Here is one that says Pauline. That may be Pauline Hall, I
don’t know. I have heard that name. I don’t know who she is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What name are you talking about?

Mr. SENATOR. Tex DeLacy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Take a look at 5305-G and tell me if you recognize the
name R. T. Brown on there.

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know who that is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you 5305-H.

Mr. SENATOR. There is no other names on there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. 5305-H, do you recognize any of the names
on there?

Mr. SENATOR. What is that, Joseph Rossi?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him. The rest are just figurations here,
numbers or moneys.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Take a look at 5305-I. There is the name Tom Palmer.

Mr. SENATOR. Tom Palmer, I think he is the booking agent in Dallas. In
other words, he books. Not the booking agent. I have got to find out
how to classify him now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what he does.

Mr. SENATOR. He is with, I think he is with AGVA.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is the American Guild of Variety Artists?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I believe he has an office in Dallas. Let me see how
he is classified. How do you classify him? I guess he has something to
do with the acts, you know, the working hours, and the pay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of the entertainers?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you met Tom Palmer?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you met him?

Mr. SENATOR. I have seen him in the Carousel, or occasionally on the
street, or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many different occasions would you say you have
met him?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I have seen him maybe a dozen times or so, maybe more.
I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you first meet him through Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; because when he came up there, he always went to
Jack, you know. I mean, he had no occasion to come to me or anything of
that nature, but he always came to Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any particular dealings Jack had with him
in the few weeks before Oswald was shot?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5305-J, and I will ask you if you
recognize any of the names on there.

Mr. SENATOR. What is this, Grace Wilkins, the first one? Is that what
that says? I don’t know her, but is that what it says?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Grace Wilkins; yes. Do you recognize that
name?

Mr. SENATOR. No. And Woodruff, I don’t know who that is. But, mind you,
I want you to bear in mind I may know these people and don’t know the
names. I may know them if I see their face.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. J. B. Gruber, I don’t know who he is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will hand you Exhibit 5305-K and ask you if you
recognize any of the names on there.

Mr. SENATOR. KLIF radio station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. KLIF?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I have heard of the name Harrigan. I don’t know if
Harrigan is KLIF, I am not sure. It says diskjockey. I knew he was
something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you met him?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I have ever met him, but I have heard of
that name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk to you about him?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how I heard of it. Very possibly he may have,
but I have heard the name. I know I have heard the name before. I don’t
know who this other is. I believe it says Chuck Dunnaway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that name?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I am not familiar with these. I am not familiar with
these.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Alex Gruber?

Mr. SENATOR. No. As I say, I may know him by face, but I am not
familiar with the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you Exhibit 5305-M and ask you if you
recognize the names on there. I might state for the record that 5305-L
is a duplicate of 5305-K, and that is why I didn’t hand it to the
witness.

Mr. SENATOR. Here it says Nick Turman. The reason I say that, I happen
to know somebody by the name of Buddy Turman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Buddy Turman?

Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Turman, I believe, is out on the West Coast. He used
to be the light heavyweight or heavyweight champion of Texas, a real
fine fellow. That is why I say I don’t know Nick.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was he a friend of Jack’s?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he was of Jack’s sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet Turman through Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Through Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if I met Turman through Jack. No, I met him
some other place. I met him some other place. I can’t think where I met
him, but I didn’t meet him through Jack, but I have seen him at Jack’s
place. As a matter of fact, he has helped Jack every now and then. This
Nick Turman, I don’t know if this is related to him or what it is. I am
not familiar with the name Nick. You have got a Norma here, and I know
a name Norma, and I can’t place it; I wonder if this is somebody who
ever worked for him, Norma.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Buddy Turman have any particular dealings, that you
know of, with Jack Ruby in the last month or so before——

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, Buddy has been gone quite a while. He went to the West
Coast. As a matter of fact, the last time I saw Buddy he said he was
going to the West Coast to train, because from there—now I don’t know
if it ever materialized—from there he was going to England to fight. I
can’t think of that heavyweight fighter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Bruce Wilcox?

Mr. SENATOR. No. Name a couple more. This one fighter didn’t fight too
long ago. You may have seen him on TV. He is the type that fights very
awkward, and sort of a slap, like. Do you remember who that is?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No, I don’t. Now, did Jack Ruby have an interest in
prizefighting?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I would say that he liked the fights. He liked to
watch them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But he never expressed any particular interest to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No, but he liked to watch the fights.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever tell you about any interest he had in the
fight game when he was a younger man?

Mr. SENATOR. I know that he used to carry Barney Ross’ bag around. How
young he was or what age, in Chicago, I don’t remember. But I know it
was as a youngster.

I assume this first name, Tammi, is Tammi True, and I assume the other
one is Little Lynn; right? These are only first names. This says Tammi,
so I assume that must be Tammi True, and Lynn, that might be Little
Lynn.

Wait; I haven’t gone through the rest. There is a Dick Lenard there,
and I think this man is a booking agency. I think he is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. For entertainers?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, if it is the same Dick Lenard. I don’t know the rest
of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 5305-N,
and ask you to look at the names on there and tell us if you recognize
any of them.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is a Murray Wynn, who owns, I assume, because it
says The Smoker’s Lounge, and I know the place, but I never knew his
last name. I assume it is the right one. He owns a tobacco and pipe
store.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What dealings did Jack have with him?

Mr. SENATOR. None that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack didn’t smoke, did he?

Mr. SENATOR. No. He probably just met him like he meets a lot of
people, I assume. I have heard of this Grant Koch. I have heard of the
name, but I don’t know who he is. It is a name I remember hearing at
one time or another; and I don’t know who this Kierney Aikens is. I
don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A-i-k-e-n-s?

Mr. SENATOR. A-i-k-e-n. I don’t who he is. What does this say here?
This is pretty hard to read. Do you see this one right here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Donald Wiley. Do you recognize that name?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will read you the other names on here. Pauline Foch.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Etheridge?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ray Hawkins?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sue Blake?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not going to hand you the next exhibit, which is
5305-O, because there are no names written on there of any persons. And
I am not going to hand you Exhibit 5305-P. I will take that back. I
will hand you that. There is a name “Bishop” written there. Does that
name mean anything to you?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I have heard of the name, but I don’t know who it
is. I don’t know what that is. I believe I have somewheres heard of
that name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to read to you from Exhibit 5305-Q, and
tell me if you recognize any of these names. Monte?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Shore?

Mr. SENATOR. Mike Shore? Is there an address or something that goes
with it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dr. Uhlevitch?

Mr. SENATOR. Does it say what he is?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No.

Mr. SENATOR. Is he local, Dallas?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I presume so.

Mr. SENATOR. What is the exchange?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It doesn’t give an exchange, just the name.

Mr. SENATOR. Uhlevitch?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that name?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Stanley Kaufman?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he is a lawyer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you met him?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never met him, but I know who he is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Jack about him or has Jack talked to
you about him?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he is, I believe, a civil attorney, and I know that
Jack has always called him for conferences of some nature or another,
whatever it may be, but I wasn’t——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a personal friend of Jack’s?

Mr. SENATOR. I assume that he has known Jack for some time. Now, how
personal, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea whether Jack was as close to Kaufman
as you were to Jim Martin, for example?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know, but I know that—as a matter of fact, even
now during the trial, trying to get the new trial now, I know that they
keep in contact with Kaufman. So I don’t know what you want to actually
call close, you know. I can’t tell you what close is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about John Hilt?

Mr. SENATOR. I never heard of that name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dick Shepard?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know that, either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Abe Klinman?

Mr. SENATOR. Abe Klinman is a CPA. I know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he do work for Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. He has done some work for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jerry Wilson?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know that name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Riaf?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tom Palmer’s name is on here, but you have talked about
that.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ed Pullman?

Mr. SENATOR. Ed Pullman; yes. Ed Pullman; his wife had worked for Jack
for a short spell as a cocktail waitress. She is an elderly woman. Ed
Pullman, he is a man who thinks up gadgets, you know. I don’t know how
to describe it. He is an idea man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A promoter?

Mr. SENATOR. Things that he makes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. An inventor?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; in that classification.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack have any business dealings with Ed Pullman?

Mr. SENATOR. The only thing is—no; no business dealings. The only thing
is he had a show once, Ed Pullman, like a market show—you know what I
mean, sort of an exhibit like where people come to look—exhibits.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of things did he exhibit?

Mr. SENATOR. Things that he had made, to show and see what he could do
with them. In other words, he wasn’t manufacturing them, but he had
already made these things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he exhibiting these items?

Mr. SENATOR. At a place called Market Hall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ed Pullman——

Mr. SENATOR. Ed Pullman exhibited a thing for him that Jack was trying
to promote.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was that?

Mr. SENATOR. This is what they call—what do they call the little thing?
It is a little twistaboard. It is a little square twistaboard, and you
get on it and it moves around like this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is a weight reducer, like?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; a twister.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long had Jack Ruby been promoting this twistboard?

Mr. SENATOR. It never came to the promotion part. I would assume that
he fooled around with it for about a month, I guess, something like
that, as a rough guess. In other words, he was going to buy them. I
think somebody was going to make them for him, and he was going to try
and sell them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And for a month, what would this month cover, from the
1st of November to the time that he shot Oswald, or before the 1st of
November?

Mr. SENATOR. No; it was either September or October, somewheres in
there. I will have to take it to the extension of these 2 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it fall through somewhere along the line? Did he lose
interest in it, or something?

Mr. SENATOR. It never materialized. In other words, look, he had
competition because there was one already out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who designed this twistboard?

Mr. SENATOR. I think it was manufactured by somebody in, I don’t know
the name of the place, in Fort Worth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was associated with Jack in the twistboard
project?

Mr. SENATOR. Nobody. This is something that never really got off the
ground. See, I think Jack had—what was it—maybe four or five or six
dozen of the things. I just don’t remember. But it never got off the
ground.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He bought these, and then what was he going to do with
them?

Mr. SENATOR. He was going to have them manufactured to resell.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he buy them from some place other than Fort Worth, or
from Fort Worth?

Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure whether he bought them from Fort Worth or
some place else. I don’t know just where he got them from.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of material were they made out of?

Mr. SENATOR. It was a compressed—I don’t know what you would call it—it
was a compressed thing. In other words, let me say that it was about
this size here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating about a foot long?

Mr. SENATOR. Approximately about a foot square.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A foot square?

Mr. SENATOR. Approximately about a foot square, and on the bottom of
it—this is a compressed thing. I don’t know if you call it a compressed
board, or what you call it. There was a compression. Then on the bottom
of it it had, I believe, a steel roller with ballbearings in it, on the
bottom, so the thing could revolve. Under that was another piece of
staple, where it was staple. In other words, it had to hold the weight
of an individual.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was something that you would lean up against?

Mr. SENATOR. No, no. It was on the floor, and you just got on it like
that, and you go—I am not a good exhibit for a twister.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, you would stand on this board?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, you would stand on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You wouldn’t put it up against your back, or anything?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You would stand on it?

Mr. SENATOR. Strictly stand on it, and it was a novelty.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the bottom part would remain stationary?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the other part would swivel as you moved on it?

Mr. SENATOR. That is right. In other words, instead of going in the
twist, this thing did it for you. In other words, you revolved and,
of course, this was classified as an exerciser, or something of that
nature. As I say, it never got off the ground.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge, nobody else was involved in the
promotion of it with Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. No; definitely not; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about John Newman? Do you recognize that name?

Mr. SENATOR. John Newman works for the Herald or the Times, the Herald
or the News. He works for either the Dallas Morning News—I forgot
now—or the Herald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know him?

Mr. SENATOR. I met him on occasion when Jack used to go up there to
place an ad once in a while, when I was living with him in 1962, you
know, I went up there with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Newman at the Carousel Club?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if I have or not. I just don’t remember. I
couldn’t say yes or couldn’t say no. I just don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to read to you the names that are on Exhibit
5305-R. Bill Petty. Do you recognize that name?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I have heard of that name, but don’t know who it
is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Bill Cantrell?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Gladys?

Mr. SENATOR. Gladys who?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all it says.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. J. B. Herred?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Oscar Newman?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to read to you the names that are on Exhibit
5305-S. Gloria Rettig?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Little Lynn you have mentioned.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Vicky Williams?

Mr. SENATOR. Vicky Williams; I don’t know that name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the photographs that pertain to the
Aladdin notebook. I am going to hand you what has been marked for
identification as Exhibit 5309-A, and this is a Xeroxed copy of another
notebook that has on the front cover, “This is a Robinson reminder. Jot
it down. Do It. Tear it. Live notes only.”

I am going to hand you this and ask you to tell me, first of all, go
through it and tell me if you remember ever seeing that notebook.

Mr. SENATOR. I think I have seen the cover of this. These are little
tear things out, aren’t they, you tear them out?

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to what appears to be perforated
segments.

Mr. SENATOR. Isn’t that what it is? That is what it looks like.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the front page. I believe that is right.

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard of the name Sue Pepper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are looking at the first page of that notebook?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you are going to identify the names?

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard of the name. I don’t know who it is. A lot of
the names I heard, but I just don’t know who they are. Does this say
Jack Hanover? This is a little hard to read.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yanover, I think.

Mr. SENATOR. Carroll Walker I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know a Jack Hanover?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I don’t know the balance of these in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting on that page?

Mr. SENATOR. I think it is Jack’s. I assume it is. I am not sure, but
I assume it is. It all looks like the same. I have seen the cover of a
book like this. Now, the insides of it I have never seen, but I think I
have seen it on him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are turning to the next page. Does that have a
small numeral down at the bottom of that page? It has numeral 3. It is
actually the second page on which there is any writing.

Mr. SENATOR. Wally what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Rack—R-a-c-k? Do you know a Wally Rack?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anything about the Doctors Club?

Mr. SENATOR. The Doctors Club?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I never knew there was a Doctors Club in Dallas. What is
Linda’s last name?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like——

Mr. SENATOR. Kuhox?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Kuhox.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does anything like that ring a bell?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I don’t know anybody here. He has some first names
here. I don’t know what they mean. Brenda and Angie.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of those first names?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s turn to the page that is numbered 4.

Mr. SENATOR. I know Bill Willis. Bill Willis was the drummer in the
band at the Carousel Club. Tom Palmer is here again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You talked about him.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Kathy Kay is a stripper. Andy is the boy. I assume
that is Andy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Andy Armstrong?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I assume the first name Kathy is Kathy Kay; right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know.

Mr. SENATOR. That is what I think it is anyhow. I don’t know. This
girl, I never knew her last name, but this could have been a former
stripper of some time back, this Lauri.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Lauri?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Lauri have a last name?

Mr. SENATOR. There is a last name here, but I don’t know who.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the last name?

Mr. SENATOR. Womack, W-o-m-a-c-k. I knew a Lauri, I think, that was a
stripper for him for a while. I think it was last summer if I am not
mistaken, or something like that. Russ Knight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. K-n-i-g-h-t?

Mr. SENATOR. He is with a radio station, but I can’t think which one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you met him?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I knew Russ.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you met him?

Mr. SENATOR. I have met him—I have seen him at the bowling alley when
we used to go up there at night. I have seen him on rare occasions when
he would come down to the Carousel. He was, I guess you would call him,
a disc jockey.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you bowl with?

Mr. SENATOR. Sometimes people—very seldom, mind you, very seldom—but
sometimes people from the club which was very seldom. As a matter of
fact, I only bowled one time, I believe. It wears me out particularly.
But very seldom.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack bowl frequently?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he bowl more than you did?

Mr. SENATOR. Maybe a little more. I’ll tell you, this particular alley
is a tremendous place in Dallas, but we always went up there to eat, on
occasions, when we did go. It was always we would go up there to eat.
They had a big restaurant there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What eating places did Jack frequent?

Mr. SENATOR. A lot of times when he went out, the majority of the times
when he went out I wasn’t with him when he went out to eat. But he has
been to—of course, it probably pertains to the time of day or night,
you know, but he ate in the waffle shops, he ate at—wait; it will
come to me in a minute. There is a couple on Commerce just above the
Adolphus Hotel. What in the world is the name of it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Egyptian Lounge?

Mr. SENATOR. He has ate at the Egyptian Lounge, but there is a couple
in the downtown area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That he ate at regularly, I take it?

Mr. SENATOR. It is not, particularly. I can’t say regularly. I don’t
know. Let me say he just varies the place. He may want to try certain
foods, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack visit the Dallas Cabana?

Mr. SENATOR. Dallas Cabana? What in the world is the Dallas Cabana?

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Cabana Motel.

Mr. SENATOR. The Cabana?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Jack has been down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he have friends there?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he has friends there or not. He certainly
probably does know some people there. Yes; there is one chap he knew
there that I know for sure, and I think he was the assistant, if he is
still there, was the assistant manager. There is Ralph Paul. Of course,
I am certain you have heard of his name before, Ralph Paul.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; Ralph we talked about earlier. How often would Jack
see Ralph?

Mr. SENATOR. Ralph would come up, I would probably say he would
probably come up maybe two or three times a week, about like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would they telephone each other during the week also?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say they have. I mean, not that I was
always around when he did, if he did telephone him, but I am certain
there were telephone calls.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have any occasion to telephone Ralph Paul?

Mr. SENATOR. Did I ever have occasion?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I called him, yes; I called him a couple of times. The
reason I called him, I had no car, I had to go down and see him once in
a while, a free lunch. He has got this place in Arlington, if you know
where Arlington is, called the Bullpen. It is one of these barbecue
places.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to Ralph Paul on the weekend of the 22d, 23d,
and 24th of November?

Mr. SENATOR. By phone?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about in person?

Mr. SENATOR. It may have been possible that I may have seen him. I just
don’t recall if I have seen him on that weekend. I can’t say yes or no,
but it may have been possible that I may have seen him at the club. Oh,
no; the club wasn’t even open.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was after the President was killed?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; no, I don’t think I did. I don’t think I have seen
him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You seem to have some recollection, though, that you might
have.

Mr. SENATOR. No; let’s see. No; I saw him, I think the first time I saw
him was, it may have been, I would say within the week. I can’t name a
date or a day. But I will say within the week after the Ruby shooting
up at the Carousel. That is about the best that I can recollect on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall talking to Little Lynn at any time on
Friday, Saturday, or Sunday, November 22, 23, or 24?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t even see her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know her husband?

Mr. SENATOR. No; but I have seen him—if it is her husband—sort of a
blond. I will tell you where I have seen him. I saw him the day of that
trial when she was carrying that gun, he come up with her, if it is her
husband or if it is her boy friend, I don’t know what.

The reason I say that, because to the best of my knowledge I don’t
even know if she wore a marriage band. But I have seen him. I think he
is sort of a blondish-haired fellow. I don’t even know his name. I am
through with this. Do you want the next page, page 6?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; go ahead.

Mr. SENATOR. There is a Joe Slayton here. Of course, Joe Slayton—this
Joe Slayton, I know him by sight but I don’t know him by conversation.
Wally Weston, he was an MC of his. I know this guy only by reading
about him, Earl Wilson, the New York Post. I don’t know him. I believe
this Tony Turner here, this name is a stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. T-o-n-i?

Mr. SENATOR. T-o-n-y it says here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think that is a stripper?

Mr. SENATOR. Tony Turner is T-o-n-i. I think that is how she spells her
name. This says Tony, T-o-n-y, Turner. It could be a man. I don’t know.
I am only guessing at this one here. Tammi True. I know her. This is a
stripper. Then there is Kay here. I don’t know if that is Kathy Kay,
or what it is. That is all I know on this one. One here says Porter.
I don’t know what that is. I don’t know what that means, if that is a
porter, or what it is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know, either. How about page 7? Let me just read
off the names and see if you recognize them. Phil Olian?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wendy Knight?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wanda?

Mr. SENATOR. Just a girl’s name?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I think, I am not sure now; I think he had a cocktail
waitress by the name of Wanda, if I am not mistaken, at one time. I am
not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Janice Anderson

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ann Petta?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. L. H. McIntyre?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jim Brown?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Carlos Camorgo?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know of any acquaintances Jack had in Mexico City?

Mr. SENATOR. Where?

Mr. GRIFFIN. In Mexico City. Did you know of any acquaintances he had
in Mexico City?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any trips that Jack took?

Mr. SENATOR. To Mexico City?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Not while I knew him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any foreign trips that he has taken?

Mr. SENATOR. No, but I have heard at some time that he went to Cuba.
Now, that is before my relation with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear this from Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I have heard it, I don’t know if I read it in the
newspapers or where I read it, but I know I heard it at one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you about Cuba at all?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about someone named Billie?

Mr. SENATOR. B-i-l-l-i-e?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Is that a man or a woman?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know.

Mr. SENATOR. Is there a telephone number?

Mr. GRIFFIN. FE 9-7914? Toni Rebel?

Mr. SENATOR. I think that is a stripper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Bill Towney? Bill Towney, WH 2-8129?

Mr. SENATOR. Bill Towney?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Shirley Nole?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Margo?

Mr. SENATOR. Let me place this Margo. This is a cocktail waitress that
he had, if it is here. It is a cocktail waitress that he had at one
time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Kitty Keel?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mary Martin?

Mr. SENATOR. It sounds like the one from Hollywood. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ethel A. Piersol?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Gail Thompson?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sam George?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Margie?

Mr. SENATOR. Margie was a cocktail waitress that he had, if it is the
same one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Peggy Steel?

Mr. SENATOR. Peggy Steel was a stripper that he had at one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. John M. Crawford?

Mr. SENATOR. Don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This man has an address, Huntsville State Penitentiary.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of any friends Jack had there?

Mr. SENATOR. No, and I don’t want to hear of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Linda?

Mr. SENATOR. I think Linda could have been a cocktail waitress.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Avrum?

Mr. SENATOR. Never heard of that name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sherry?

Mr. SENATOR. I am trying to figure if Sherry was a stripper. I am not
sure. I can’t make it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Henry Segel? This man is from Chicago.

Mr. SENATOR. I wouldn’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Roy Pike?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mickey Ryan?

Mr. SENATOR. Mickey Ryan, I know Mickey Ryan. Of course, Mickey Ryan
lives in California. He is in California. Mickey Ryan used to sell
cars, and he worked, the last job I think he worked at, he worked at a
club for a while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, a private club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say he is in California or from California?

Mr. SENATOR. From California, and back there. He is back in California.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But he was in Dallas at the time that the President was
shot?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he was, before or after. No, I don’t
really know. He may have been, now. I think he was after.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to return to California?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. He said he was going back to California. I
met him one day, and he said he was going back to California. Now, why,
I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet him before you went to New York to live with
your sister?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure; yes. I never same him after I come back. I
saw him last year. It could have been, it may have been November or
December. I think it may have been December.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So some time after——

Mr. SENATOR. I think the last time I saw him was after the incident, if
I remember right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And at that time, and this was before you left New York to
live with your sister?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or left Dallas to live with your sister?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I think it was in December the last time I saw him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He told you at that time he was moving to California?

Mr. SENATOR. He said he was going back to California.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you why?

Mr. SENATOR. No; no particular reason why.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what acquaintanceship or relationship he had
with Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. As a friend.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have any business dealings?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever work for Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. He may have helped him a little bit. Now, I am not sure.
I think he helped him for a very short while in the Carousel, if I
remember, but it was a very short while. Now, how long it was, I don’t
know. It was just a short while, though, I think he helped him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Lisa Starling?

Mr. SENATOR. I knew a girl by the name of Lisa, and I can’t place it. I
am not familiar with the last name. I am trying to figure who, a Lisa I
knew. Now, I knew a Lisa Lynn. Lisa Land I think it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But Gail Hall, Monroe, La.?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk about any friends he had in Louisiana?

Mr. SENATOR. Gail Hall?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Is there a city?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Monroe, La.

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard him mention Monroe, La.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In what connection have you heard him mention Monroe?

Mr. SENATOR. I think he met a girl once in Dallas that came from
Monroe. Now, if this is the girl or not, I am not sure. I think he met
a girl. I am not sure if he met her at the club, or where it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What about H. G. Tiger?

Mr. SENATOR. Tiger?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. E. Fletcher, F-l-e-t-c-h-e-r?

Mr. SENATOR. E. Fletcher?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Is there an address or something?

Mr. GRIFFIN. 40 Central Park, something or other.

Mr. SENATOR. 40 Central Park?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Central Park, and I don’t know what.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. There is a fellow I knew by the name of
Ernie Fletcher. I don’t know E. Fletcher.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a friend of Jack Ruby? Does he know Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I mean, I have never seen him with Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know him in Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. I knew him in Dallas, yes. I have seen him in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do?

Mr. SENATOR. I haven’t seen him in a long, long time, because the last
I heard, I think he was living in New York.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do?

Mr. SENATOR. I never knew what he did. He was a promoter, but what, I
don’t know. I think he was an oil promoter or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Darrell Williams?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on page 9 of this particular notebook that we have
been looking at, there is the name Vivian, Statler Barbershop.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; there is a manicurist there by the name of Vivian.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack frequent the Statler Barbershop?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. The barbershop he frequented the most was a
place in another section of town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?

Mr. SENATOR. Loma Alto.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It may have been called the Loma Alto?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it is two words, the Loma Alto section.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What general part of Dallas is that, northeast, southwest,
Love Field?

Mr. SENATOR. Let me say it was on the way up to that way, Love Field.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Towards Love Field from downtown Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. From downtown. I tell you, the best way I can describe it
to you is it ran off of—I have got a good memory, haven’t I? You are
writing that down, too? I can’t think of the name of the street. I’ll
tell you why he went to this barbershop, which I never knew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. SENATOR. When the barber cuts his hair, he doesn’t like clippers.
He won’t let them use a clipper. He wants everything by hand, and he
could probably drive a barber crazy the way he wants his hair cut. To
my knowledge, I don’t think he lets a barber shave. You know how the
barber shaves you back here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. He won’t let him shave the back of his neck?

Mr. SENATOR. You know why? I’ll tell you why. Because he grows hair too
fast.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is what Jack told you, that your hair grows too fast
when it is shaved off?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; you know how some of the hairs will grow in the rear
of a person, like mine, I have got a few, the barber will shave them
off. He wants them clipped off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So he requires the back of his neck to be clipped rather
than shaved?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now, he has got a barber, he has got this barber who
knows just what to do with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack concerned about baldness?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, you should only know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us.

Mr. SENATOR. He used to drive me crazy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that.

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he would have these treatments. I don’t know the
name of the place where he got these treatments, and he had the stuff,
you know, they’d rub into his head, whatever this medication. I don’t
know what the stuff was, you know.

I have always seen him use it, whatever it was, and he would rub it
into his head. He spent 45 minutes under a shower when he was really
working with the stuff, and he would rub it into his head. He was
always combing his hair all the time, what little was left, but he
couldn’t stand being bald.

He used to comment, “How does my hair look; how does my hair look?”.
And it was really funny. I used to laugh, but he would get mad when I
laughed at him. But he was very, very particular about his hair.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he been this way all the time that you knew him, or
was this something that had come on?

Mr. SENATOR. No; this is, of course, as long as, you knew, as long as I
have known him. Actually, I can’t say as long as I have known him, but
as long as I have been around him. Oh, man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And he actually had some treatments for his hair, didn’t
he?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure, sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were these called trichology treatments, or something like
that?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know the nature of the word they used.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he go to some practitioner?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who worked on his head?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he went to somebody, he actually went. And I believe
he picked up all his medication from him, too. They came in plastic
tubes, a little vial like. I would probably say these tubes would hold
approximately maybe about half a pint. He had two different types
whatever they were; one was wash and one was rinse, or what it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And he would use these on his head?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And was this a daily thing that he did?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any particular ritual, any period of time of
the day that he would do this?

Mr. SENATOR. No; it was just whatever time, not particularly. It could
be in the morning, but I would say it was about every day, once a day
some time, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you told us yesterday, I believe it was, that Jack
would spend 45 minutes in the bathroom, or something like that, he was
very slow getting up in the morning, was this part of the procedure?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he did it that day or not. I don’t
remember if he did it that way, but I tell you, when he gets in the
bathroom when he is going through the entire ritual, he takes longer
than a woman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Part of this ritual would involve this scalp treatment?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Hair treatment?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What else was involved in the ritual?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, of course, the door was closed, you know. I am not
actually watching him. Of course, the shave and the shower.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he shower every day?

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; sure. I will tell you when he really did his big
cleaning up was at night, before going to work. That was when the big
ritual was, he spent a big time in there. But it was really something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The next one I am going to hand you is Exhibit 5204. This
was used in the deposition of C. L. Crafard. I don’t believe there
are any other marks on here. I am going to ask you to look at this
notebook, or rather, the Xerox pages of a notebook, and ask you, first
of all, generally if you recognize that notebook?

Let me say that the notebook, if you will turn to the first page of
all those papers that are put together, and look at that first page
carefully, you will see that the notebook had written on the cover just
the word “Addresses,” and, of course, we can’t tell from what color the
notebook was or what material it was made out of, how it was bound,
although it appears to be not a looseleaf kind of notebook but one that
was perhaps stitched at the back or something.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever recall anything like that?

Mr. SENATOR. I know he had two or three of those little things. Like I
told you before, I knew he had two or three of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting in this particular
notebook?

Mr. SENATOR. I assume it is Jack’s.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t actually recognize it as Jack’s?

Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure, but I assume it is Jack’s. To me they sort
of all look like the same handwriting, so I assume they are his.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, look at the first page that has writing on it, which
actually in this exhibit is numbered page 2, and tell us, do you
recognize any of the names there?

Mr. SENATOR. There is one here, and the reason I recognize this name
here, Patricia Stevens, because Patricia Stevens I think is a modeling
school.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. In Dallas?

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack deal with that modeling school?

Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize that name through any association you
had with Jack Ruby?

Mr. SENATOR. No. That is the only way I would recognize the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any other names on that page?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Turn to the next page, which is page 3, and tell us if you
recognize any of the names there.

Mr. SENATOR. There is a name here I am not sure of, but it says Thelma
Brown. This could be a singer. I am not sure. Or Bertha Brown. I know
there is a girl by the name of Brown who was a colored girl, who was a
singer, and she has come pretty well up the line. Now, if this is the
girl or not, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she sing for Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. A long, long time ago when she was smaller. Now she is
big-time. Now, where she is singing I don’t know. I don’t know if that
is her first name, but I know there was a girl by the name of Brown. I
don’t know if it was Thelma Brown, Bertha Brown, or whatever it is. I
am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any other names on page 3?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Turn to page 4 and tell us if you recognize any of the
names there.

Mr. SENATOR. Ed Bernet. I have heard that name, but I don’t know what
it is. I can’t make out what it is. It sounds like an entertainer, but
I am not sure. The others I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize any other names on that page?

Mr. SENATOR. No. There is only one other name there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Turn to the next page. Is that page 5?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and I don’t know who that is. It is just one name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What name is that?

Mr. SENATOR. Bill Capehart. I don’t know who that is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to turn to page 6?

Mr. SENATOR. Bob Eisman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that name?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know who he is. There is nothing else but the
name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you want to turn to the next page, page 7.
Do you recognize that name, Ham Faust?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 8; do you recognize the name there?

Mr. SENATOR. This boy here, he is resting in peace.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Martin Gimpel?

Mr. SENATOR. He died of a heart attack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he die?

Mr. SENATOR. He died, I would say, I would probably say a year and a
half ago, which tore Jack apart because they were kids together all
their life.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From Chicago?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He has been gone now about a year and a half, maybe 2
years, I am not sure, something like that. Now, the other name I don’t
know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ann Gibson. What was Jack’s relationship in Dallas with
Mr. Gimpel?

Mr. SENATOR. He was a tool salesman. He traveled. He sold tools. Now, I
have never seen him sell them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what kind of tools, household tools or
industrial tools?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I think they were industrial tools. To my knowledge, I
think that is what it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Gimpel have a family in Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he single?

Mr. SENATOR. When he came here, he didn’t always stay here. I mean, I
haven’t known him that long, when I met him, but when he was here, I
don’t know how long he stayed. He stayed, and traveled. But in this
area, or rather in the Dallas area, or wherever he was traveling, I
don’t know if it was in the State of Texas or out of it, or just where
he traveled. Of course, he stayed with Jack because he didn’t pay no
rent.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack supported him?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 9.

Mr. SENATOR. There is a name here that I think is an entertainer. I am
not sure, Trinidad, Colo. Wait a minute; that is Trinidad, Colo., but I
knew somebody by the name of Trinidad. There was an entertainer. Cecil
Hamlin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he?

Mr. SENATOR. He is with the union. Now, what capacity or what, I don’t
know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which union?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know which union.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he friendly with Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know, because I have only seen the man one time
in my life, and the time that I saw him I was introduced to him, not
knowing who he was, down at the courthouse, at the courthouse.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that at the trial or the bail bond hearing, or
something like that?

Mr. SENATOR. It was at this trial here, in the lobby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Ruby trial?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I saw him in the lobby once. That is the only time I
ever seen the man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you had never seen him before?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I had never seen him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you had never heard Jack speak of him?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have heard the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How had you heard Jack speak of him?

Mr. SENATOR. Jack has asked me to call him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In what connection?

Mr. SENATOR. There was somebody, there were a couple of people owed
Jack some money, and he asked me to ask Cecil to see if Cecil would
call them to get the money or pick up the money. He had a couple of
hundred dollars out, and he wanted to ask him if he would be kind
enough to collect it for him or try to collect it for him, or call them
up, or something of that nature. I don’t know the rest of them. Page 10.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the names on page 10?

Mr. SENATOR. I think he had a stripper, a part-time stripper, at one
time, I am not sure. Of course, I don’t know if this is, but this says
Grapevine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Grapevine, Tex.?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but I don’t know. A girl by the name of Linda, but I
never knew her last name, so I don’t know if this is her or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 11.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who this is. I have seen this name before on
other pages, Jeanie. I don’t know what that is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 12.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 13.

Mr. SENATOR. Latin Band, is that what that says?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like that.

Mr. SENATOR. I am thinking of Larry, the kid who works at the club, but
what would the Latin Band be? I don’t know who that is. I don’t know
who this is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 14.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 15.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This doesn’t have a page number.

Mr. SENATOR. This is a repeat of the other.

Mr. GRIFFIN. A duplicate of the previous page?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t say it is a duplicate of the page, but the
name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s read the name so that the record is complete. Pat
Sancipian, Patricia Stevens. Xavier Cugat?

Mr. SENATOR. I know the name. Who don’t know it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack never talked to you about him?

Mr. SENATOR. No; where he got it, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Turning to another page, which doesn’t have a number on
it, Sam Schwartz.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Robyn Hoy Smith, Tom Teel?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And turning to the last page, which is numbered 20, it
simply says Elizabeth. You don’t recognize that name?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you another book that is marked Exhibit
5202, which was used in the deposition of C. L. Crafard, and it is a
blue spiral notebook with the word “Penway” written on the front. It
is called a “Penway Memo Book.” Look through that.

Mr. SENATOR. Is this Jack Ruby’s book? I can’t picture him writing like
that. This is terrible handwriting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are looking now at the Crafard Exhibit No. 5202. Do
you recognize the handwriting in that book?

Mr. SENATOR. There is only one person who I think possibly could write
like this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that?

Mr. SENATOR. I would have to guess, and say probably Andrew, maybe. I
am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t recognize it as Jack Ruby’s handwriting?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think it is. I don’t think this is Jack Ruby’s
handwriting. Jack don’t write this bad. This is terrible writing. I
don’t think that is Jack’s handwriting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have had a chance to go through this notebook. You
mentioned, looking at page 1 of Exhibit 5202, in which there is written
some words such as “Save, Vegas Club, Jack’s home,” and so forth. And
there is the name Buddy, with the words “Fort Worth” written after it,
and a telephone number underneath. Do you recognize that?

Mr. SENATOR. This could be probably this guy that he was going to have,
I imagine, I am not sure, probably made those twistboards.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Buddy?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never seen him; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned the name St. Charles.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And St. Charles is written on this first page, with a
telephone number under it. Do you recognize that?

Mr. SENATOR. That probably is his home number.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember St. Charles’ number?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember the number offhand; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby ever have anything to do with Mr. St.
Charles?

Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing whatsoever. He knew him. He used to go through
and buy some medicine, or whatever it might be, a toothbrush, and
things of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. St. Charles ran a drugstore?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he has a drugstore in the Statler Hilton Hotel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. St. Charles have any connection with Jack Ruby’s
twistboards?

Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing. Never knew he had a twistboard. I would
venture to say that this book here, this is only one person I think who
has a handwriting like that, that would write this here. This probably,
this could be, though I have never seen this book, the handwriting
looks like Andrew’s, Andrew Armstrong, the colored boy. This is what I
think it is. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. You made the remark that you know
that St. Charles didn’t know anything about the twistboards.

Mr. SENATOR. No; not to my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But have you talked with St. Charles since Ruby shot
Oswald, and have you learned from St. Charles that he was unaware of
the twistboards?

Mr. SENATOR. I have seen St. Charles exactly one time since then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What prompted you to make the statement that St. Charles
didn’t know anything about the twistboard?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say, to the best of my knowledge, he
didn’t know anything about the twistboard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You would be surprised if he did?

Mr. SENATOR. If he did, I can’t say. It is possible that he did, but I
would say, to the best of my knowledge. I can’t say positively. I don’t
think he did. Now, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Turning over page 1, look at the names there. There are
two names at the bottom of the page. You testified about Abe Klinman.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes, the attorney. That is Earl Ruby, and Ed Pullman,
which I mentioned before to you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t even read the first name. It looks like Leona or
Lena.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Leona?

Mr. SENATOR. Miller; is that who it is?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It might be.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Clark Dotty?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Turning over to page 2, do you recognize any of the names
on that page?

Mr. SENATOR. This says Mar-Din?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. This is another name, Henry Denture. I wouldn’t know who
that is. Earl Products.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will skip over the back of page 2 because there is
nothing on there that you haven’t talked about. Look at page 3.

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t even understand what that last name is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to the first name on there.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what it is anyhow, but I can’t even read the
last name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize any of those names there?

Mr. SENATOR. No; that is Shay, I believe, isn’t it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, Ruth Shay.

Mr. SENATOR. No. I think we talked about this one before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now on the back of page 3 you have mentioned
Stanley Kaufman.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But there is a Riky Kasada.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Scotty Milles or Mills?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize that?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. On page 4, Norma Bennett?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Judy Armstrong?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Burt Nelson?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Floyd Turman you mentioned previously.

Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Turman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the name?

Mr. SENATOR. No; his name is Buddy. Wait; he comes from Tyler, Tex.
Yes, here it is. This says Buddy. I didn’t know him by his first name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Floyd Turman is——

Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Turman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The other Turman we talked about is Nick Turman?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t know who that is. Now, see, he is known
by his fighting name, is Buddy Turman and, of course, that is all I
recall. I never knew it was Floyd, but he is billed, and everything
else, as Buddy Turman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the back of page 4 there is the name Buddy Heard. Did
you know Buddy Heard?

Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Heard, yes. He is an entertainer who worked for Jack
once, I would probably say about two years ago was the last time he was
in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has Jack maintained a relationship with him recently?

Mr. SENATOR. No. I would say it was approximately, it must have been
approximately two years ago. He worked for him, I think, one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say “no” to my question about Jack maintaining a
relationship with him recently?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know of any.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about any of the other names that you see there on the
back of page 4? Do you recognize any of those?

Mr. SENATOR. What does this say? Is this Burt?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Burt. Did you know a Burt?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not going to direct your attention to page 5 because
page 5 doesn’t have anything on it. I believe it has nothing on it that
we haven’t already talked about. The back of page 5 has the name “Jerry
Lindsay”. Do you recognize that name?

Mr. SENATOR. No. Floorman, that is the man that worked on the floor or
did some work for him, or something, but I don’t recognize the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name of Leo? Do you know anybody
named Leo?

Mr. SENATOR. Leo Tardi? He worked for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his name?

Mr. SENATOR. I think it is Tardi. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he work for Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. The last time he worked for Jack, he had worked both
clubs, you know, the Vegas and that one there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of work did he do?

Mr. SENATOR. After the shooting he worked up at the club at nights and,
of course, he was a salesman in the daytime.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But what kind of work?

Mr. SENATOR. He took the tickets in, you know, the $2 admission fees.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he sell during the daytime?

Mr. SENATOR. I think clothing in a store.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what department store he worked for?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or what store?

Mr. SENATOR. No. It was in one of the downtown stores there. I don’t
know which one it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to pass over the front half of page 6 because
there is nothing written on there that appears to be a name, and I will
direct your attention to the back of page 6. Do you recognize any of
the names there?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him, at the radio station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dick Gifford?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize anything else on there?

Mr. SENATOR. What is this supposed to say?

Mr. GRIFFIN. S-c-h-r-o-l-l.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now look at the front of page 7. Do you recognize any of
those names?

Mr. SENATOR. This particular Leonard I have mentioned to you before,
the booking agent. The thing is to read these things. Who can read them?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me help you, if I can.

Mr. SENATOR. What does the top one say?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Joe Roskydall.

Mr. SENATOR. Never heard of him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Dick Lenard you mentioned. E. J. Evans?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. What is this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. W. E. Groveland?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Stevens Park Beauty Salon?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maisl Brothers?

Mr. SENATOR. Boy, I tell you, you do all right with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The back of page 7, I will read these off to you. Ed
McMulmore. Does that mean anything to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. McKinney?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. The front of page 8; Leonard Wood?

Mr. SENATOR. Don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Milton Thomas?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Clarence McInnis?

Mr. SENATOR. Don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. James Dotson?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. James T. Aycox?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Nothing on the back of page 8 or the front of page 9.
Page 9, the back is blank. Page 10 is blank on both sides. Page 11 is
a half sheet which is blank on both sides. Page 12 I won’t direct your
attention to because there are no names on there. The back of page
12, the only name that appears on here is Bill Remike. Does that mean
anything to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Here is the name, Bobby Patterson.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On page 13. I will turn over to the back of page 13. There
is the name, Tex Lacy, which we talked about before.

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard about that name, but I don’t know what
capacity Tex Lacy is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I said the back of page 13. Now on page 14, which is
about a third of a sheet of paper, there is the name Frank Fisher. Did
you know Frank Fisher?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Frank Fisher?

Mr. SENATOR. Frank Fisher was a trumpet player and the leader of his
band at one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of a band?

Mr. SENATOR. In the Carousel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what else did he do besides performance as a musician?

Mr. SENATOR. That is all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he an interior decorator?

Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. If he was, that is news to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk to you or did you know in the week or so
before the President was shot whether Jack was considering opening up
any new night club?

Mr. SENATOR. He had talked about one. I have never seen it. But he was
talking about a location that he had mentioned on McKinney Avenue. I
think this was a house type place and, as far as I know, nothing ever
materialized or whatever it was going to be. This is the only thing I
knew about it. He never took me over there. I have never seen it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How was Jack going to finance it?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. That I didn’t know. Possibly he may have
been looking for a partner. I don’t know, or how or what I don’t know.
You’ve got me there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I won’t mention the back of page 14 because there is
nothing there. Clark Boland, does that mean anything to you?

Mr. SENATOR. No; it seems that is a radio station there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Herman Flowers?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. K. Hamilton. That is the front of page 16.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Miller, Collins Radio?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Cody City Hall; do you now anybody by that name?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jimmie Rhodes, do you know him?

Mr. SENATOR. The name sounds like I heard of it, but I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Wooldridge?

Mr. SENATOR. Never heard of him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Bob Litchfield?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Moddy?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know that either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the back cover is written the name Newton.

Mr. SENATOR. The only name I know of a Newton would be John Newton of
the newspaper. If that is him or not, I don’t know, because this is a
telephone number, I assume, isn’t it, but there is no prefix to it.
Maybe this is it now. I don’t even know if that is him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went out to look at the Earl Warren sign,
“Impeach Earl Warren” sign, on Friday, or was it Saturday morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack write anything down?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recall?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. I didn’t see him write anything down. I
can’t quote if he did or didn’t, but I didn’t see him. I will put it
that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have any newspapers in the car with him?

Mr. SENATOR. That day?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. I really don’t know. I just don’t refresh my mind if he
did have any newspapers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you drive Jack’s car?

Mr. SENATOR. No; he drove it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I suggest now we probably ought to break to two-thirty.

(Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m. the proceeding recessed.)


TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR RESUMED

The proceeding reconvened at 2:10 p.m.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will repeat what we say at the beginning of each
session. We are taking this deposition under the same conditions that
we started out with, and you are under the same oath that you have been
under at the outset.

Just before we took a break for lunch we had been through a number of
notebooks which had many, many names in them. Let me ask you about some
other names.

Did you know or hear Jack mention a Lawrence Meyers?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This man would have been from Chicago and he would have
been engaged in a sales capacity in sporting goods.

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, wait a minute. You mentioned sporting goods. That’s
right. I met someone up there. As a matter of fact, Jack got a pair of
pushups from him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Barbells?

Mr. SENATOR. If it is Lawrence Meyers. I think that is the name. I am
not sure. Barbells, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you met some man or you heard of some man?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who you think might be Lawrence Meyers?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know who you mean. When you mentioned sporting
goods, then it——

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know of this man?

Mr. SENATOR. I met him at the Carousel one night when he was in town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before Oswald was shot would that have been?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I think it was in the summer. I think it was
this past summer. I think it was in the summer of 1963.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been in the month of November of 1963?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I think it was much longer, much before that. Well,
it couldn’t have been that. The reason I say that is because I wasn’t
living with Jack then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In November of 1963 you were.

Mr. SENATOR. I was living next door to Jack. I wasn’t living with him.
When you mentioned—was it November?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No; because——

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you met this man you were not living with Jack?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I was still living in my same apartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You met him——

Mr. SENATOR. I think this was some time in the summer, or maybe the
latter part of the summer of 1963.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time did you spend with this man in the Carousel?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, he was up at the Carousel. From there we went out
and had a bite to eat, and that was it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And can you describe him? How old a man was he?

Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say he was 6 foot tall. I would say he
is around about 6 foot. I don’t remember the color of his eyes, black,
brown, or blue. I don’t remember. Either they are brown or blue. He had
a good healthy build, now, of a normal man of that height.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a man was he?

Mr. SENATOR. I would have to say maybe in the late forties. I am not
sure. I am certain it is in the forties, if anything, you know. It
could jump up a little more. I would probably say he was in the——

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Jack happen to know this fellow?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. That was the one time I saw him in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you learn about him?

Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t learn anything about him. I knew he was selling
these things, sporting goods, I guess, of various natures. As a matter
of fact, I heard him mention once that they had a plant or something
like that in, I think, Bonham, Tex., or a plant or something out there
too, which is maybe about 75 miles from Dallas, or an office there or a
plant or something out there I know. I don’t know what it is. Maybe it
is a manufacturing plant they had there now. That was the only one time
I saw him in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any idea how Jack came to meet this fellow?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mentioned the name Alex Gruber.

Mr. SENATOR. Who?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Alex Gruber.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were going through the notebooks?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And I believe you indicated you didn’t recognize that name.

Mr. SENATOR. Not the name; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me see if I can put this to you. Did you know of any
friend Jack had in California who might have been at one time a truck
driver?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t. A truck driver?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you remember anybody that Jack was going to send a
dog to in California?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t. I have heard that mentioned before. I have
heard it mentioned. I don’t remember now if I read it in the newspaper
or from mouth to ear or what it was, but I have heard that, that he was
going to send it to somebody in California. Who it was, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about L. J. McWillie?

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard of the name McWillie, but I don’t know him.
Is it McWillie?

Mr. GRIFFIN. M-c-W-i-l-l-i-e.

Mr. SENATOR. All I know is the name McWillie.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you know about that name?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t even know him. Never met him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you heard the name?

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard Jack mention the name in the club. He was an
old friend of Jack’s at one time or another. From where, what or how, I
don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any friends of Jack——

Mr. SENATOR. As a matter of fact, I thought McWillie was two names. I
thought his first name was Mac and his last name was Willie. But, of
course, I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any friends of Jack who are in jail
presently, in the penitentiary?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of a friend, a fellow who Jack had a business
association with, who is now in the penitentiary on a sodomy charge?

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard that there is somebody. It might be
Huntsville. It might be. I am not sure. I heard that somebody is down
there. Now who the man is, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk about him?

Mr. SENATOR. I have heard it mentioned quite some time ago, but who he
is, I don’t know. I don’t know the man. As a matter of fact I don’t
even know the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar with the name H. L. Hunt?

Mr. SENATOR. I think everybody is. He is one of the very wealthy men.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever mention having met him?

Mr. SENATOR. Not to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know H. L. Hunt is politically active, he has a radio
program.

Mr. SENATOR. He is in everything. He is in many, many things, I
understand; oh, well, I didn’t know what all his activities are, but
the name is like, when you hear the name, it is like listening to the
name of the President—I mean that well known, I would say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever seen Jack with any literature that was put
out by H. L. Hunt?

Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of offhand.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever heard Jack mention Lamar Hunt?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. That is his son, I think. I don’t think
so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, George, have you ever belonged to any
political organizations?

Mr. SENATOR. Never, never.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t simply mean by that the Democratic Party or the
Republican Party, but any kind of organization which was interested in
some public issue, or something.

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your practice with respect to using Jack’s
telephone?

Mr. SENATOR. What was what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your practice with respect to using Jack Ruby’s telephone
at home. I take it you used it to make local calls.

Mr. SENATOR. Once in a while; yes. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make long-distance calls, telephone calls, from
Jack’s home?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By long distance I mean any toll call, even to Fort Worth.

Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. I don’t think I ever have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to call Ralph Paul from Jack’s
telephone?

Mr. SENATOR. I have called him, but I don’t think I have ever called
him from the house that I can remember, mind you. Now I don’t know if
I have ever or not. I can’t quote and say “Yes, I did,” or “Yes, I
didn’t.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to state whether or not on Friday, November
22, you made any long-distance phone calls from Jack’s telephone?

Mr. SENATOR. On November 22?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; Friday, November 22.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t think I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the next day, on Saturday?

Mr. SENATOR. On Saturday?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make any toll calls on that day?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. When I say I don’t think so, I don’t
remember if I did or not, but I don’t think so. I don’t want to say
“No” positively or “Yes” positive, because I am not sure. I just don’t
think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Saturday morning, November 23, do you
remember whether Jack received any telephone calls that morning?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recall, for example, whether Larry Crafard
called that morning?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember if he did or not. As I say, I can’t be
quoted, because I ain’t positive. I can’t say yes or no because I don’t
remember on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first become aware that Larry Crafard was no
longer in Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. The following Tuesday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you find out about that?

Mr. SENATOR. When I went up there I asked Andrew one night, and I
happened to remember that it was Tuesday, one of the things I do
remember, and I said to Andrew, I said, “Andrew, where is Larry?” I
said, “I didn’t see him yesterday either,” or something like that, to
that effect, and he said he had left, and I said, “When did he leave?”
He said he had left Saturday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Andrew know that?

Mr. SENATOR. He said—I think now he said he took $8 from the till,
or something to that effect, and I think he left a note that he was
leaving, something like that. These are not positive words, but I think
this is what he said. Something to that effect. And that is the first
time I ever knew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Andrew have any explanation as to why Larry left?

Mr. SENATOR. No; not that I know of. Incidentally, Andrew was back at
the trial, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry?

Mr. SENATOR. I mean Larry, because Andrew lives in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; he was at the trial?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they said he hitchhiked in from Wisconsin or some
place out there. I don’t know where it is. They said he hitchhiked all
the way back for the trial. That is what I heard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I talked to him when I was sitting on the witness
bench one day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you why he came back to Dallas?

Mr. SENATOR. No; but he said, he mentioned that he hitchhiked back, but
he didn’t say why he came back or anything of that nature.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything to you about why he left?

Mr. SENATOR. No: he didn’t. I never asked him. As a matter of fact,
I wanted to ask him, but I didn’t. I couldn’t imagine why he left. I
believe he was on the witness stand. What happened, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know we were talking about what you did on Saturday.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During the afternoon.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I have here in front of me a copy of a statement that you
provided the Dallas Police Department. I notice in here that you say
that you left the house around noon on Saturday.

Mr. SENATOR. Something like that; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And that you had some things to do. Now try to think back
to when you talked with the police department. What things did you have
to do on Saturday?

Mr. SENATOR. I can’t imagine. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have anything to do in connection with your
business?

Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t work that day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any shopping to do other than for the
groceries you bought?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, I did that. I don’t remember if I did that. I just
wonder if I did the laundry. I normally do the laundry on Saturday or
something. But I don’t even recollect if I did that that day or not.
I don’t remember. I think I saw Jim Martin, but to the best of my
recollection anything I did was only minute, just the passing of an
afternoon, or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some recollection of having seen Jim Martin on
Saturday?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I had a cocktail. I am not sure, but I think I had
a cocktail with him, at the Burgundy Room. I think I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that have been in the afternoon?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; because he is around his office between somewhere
between 12 and 1. I mean that is when he will leave, he won’t leave
before that, and if I remember right—I am not sure on that—but if I
remember I think we may have had a cocktail at the Burgundy Room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you do begin to have some recollection of having
spent some time at the Burgundy Room?

Mr. SENATOR. I know I was there that day, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But I mean Saturday afternoon.

Mr. SENATOR. I think I may have been there for a while, because I know
later on that I met who I mentioned yesterday, Bill Downey, that I was
there, and that we went some other place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Downey before——

Mr. SENATOR. I think I saw Downey the latter part of the afternoon, or
something like that, or the early part of the evening. I don’t know if
I met him in the latter part of the afternoon or when it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you——

Mr. SENATOR. It might have been in the early part of the afternoon. I
am not sure. But I also met him later. It must have been around 8 or
8:30 when we went out together. I was at the Burgundy Room. Then we
went to this other place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It is your recollection that you saw Downey then both in
the afternoon and the evening?

Mr. SENATOR. I think I saw him in the afternoon, but the evening for
sure. I think I saw him in the afternoon. I am not sure. I think I made
an appointment to meet him later, and then we would go out for a beer
or two. This is what I think. I think now I am not sure on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you troubled on Saturday over your having gone with
Jack out to photograph this impeach Earl Warren sign?

Mr. SENATOR. Was I troubled when I went with him?

Mr. GRIFFIN. On Saturday did this trouble you in any way?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean Saturday afternoon?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. You mean did I think about it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I imagine that I would probably say that I had thought
about it; yes. As a matter of fact, I thought about that thing many a
time; I don’t know why; I don’t know why he wanted to go out that night
and take these pictures. He never mentioned why he wanted to see it or
why he wanted to snap the pictures.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t mention this to the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You did mention, however, that you went out with Jack and
had coffee with him that morning?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes; at the Southland Hotel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, this was all in sequence with having gone out
to see that Earl Warren sign?

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But what was it that made you omit to tell the police that?

Mr. SENATOR. Nothing particularly. I don’t know why. Just it was a
shaken-up day for me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you worried that this might hurt Jack to talk about
that particular episode?

Mr. SENATOR. No. As a matter of fact, it would do him justice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you feel that way?

Mr. SENATOR. I think if a man is exploring somebody who put out a sign,
whoever it may be, who would want to impeach Earl Warren, our Supreme
Court Justice, or somebody who would put out these whys about the
President the day he is coming here, which weren’t good, the whys, I
would say that this would be in favor of him of wanting to know these
things, why should they be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would that——

Mr. SENATOR. Why would somebody want to impeach Earl Warren? For what
reason? I don’t know. I mean I don’t have the answer to it. But why
would a sign be put up there? Why did they want to impeach Earl Warren?
Impeach him about what? I have asked myself this many times, but I
don’t know the answer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You see, it seems strange that you should have mentioned
your going to the Southland Hotel and having coffee and that occurred
immediately after you had gone out to see the Earl Warren sign and had
also gone to the post office—then I say I wonder how you could have
forgotten it, once you had your mind on having one to the Southland
Hotel. You know you didn’t go right from your apartment to the
Southland Hotel to have coffee.

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I don’t know why. I know I explained that to
Elmer Moore one day, and I said, “Elmer,” or “Mr. Moore,” rather, when
he was questioning me, I said, “Elmer, of course, the first day I had
been shaken up,” and I had mentioned to Mr. Moore when he took my text
of the whole thing how going about the sign, the two signs, how these
had bypassed my mind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Two signs?

Mr. SENATOR. Well, when I say the signs, the billboard and the
newspaper ad, when they took my statement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you talked to me on the telephone from New York, I
guess it was on Monday——

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You asked me if I had a copy, or if I had seen the Bernard
Weissman ad.

Mr. SENATOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And I take it that in your mind this is a justification,
this somehow is a justification or some assistance to Jack in his
defense, the fact that he was interested in finding out about that
advertisement and about the sign?

Mr. SENATOR. That’s right. He wanted to know the whys. He wanted to
know why somebody would want to impeach him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is this a thought that has come to you after knowing,
or after having talked with the attorneys and knowing what the strategy
of the trial was going to be?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Talking with people?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or is this something that you felt almost immediately,
that this would be a justification?

Mr. SENATOR. I thought definitely in my own thinking that this was a
justification, because when I was put on the witness stand for the bond
hearing in early, I think it was, December, I am not sure just when
it was, when I was questioned about that by Mr. Alexander, I told him
that if anything this would be helping Jack, in wanting to know why
something of this nature would want to be put out in Dallas. Why did
the Dallas Daily Morning News want to accept an ad like this when the
President was coming into town that day?

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went out with Jack, did Jack tell you at all what
he was going to do with this information that he got?

Mr. SENATOR. No; none whatsoever.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate that he might have been working for a
newspaper?

Mr. SENATOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Trying to do some freelance work for a newspaper?

Mr. SENATOR. No; there wasn’t a thing mentioned. I say when Jack gets
his mind set on something, he wants to know why, the information, the
why.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that you first learned that Jack had spent
sometime at the police station on Friday night? Did you ever learn it?

Mr. SENATOR. You mean the Friday when he was bringing the sandwiches
and things of that nature there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. When did you first learn about that?

Mr. SENATOR. I think it was after he woke me up that morning. I think
that is when he told me, and I think he mentioned it, yes, and then he
mentioned that he went to the synagogue there Friday and prayed for the
President, and that he saw his sister, and they were both crying, as it
was related to me, over the President.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t tell any of that to the——

Mr. SENATOR. To who?

Mr. GRIFFIN. To the police department when you talked to them on the
24th, did you?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. See, you must understand——

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you take a look—well, go ahead.

Mr. SENATOR. You must understand when a person is grabbed the way I
was grabbed, or I will say not particularly me, but any human being,
wouldn’t it shake a human being up?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it the police department asked you to tell them
everything you knew about what Jack had done.

Mr. SENATOR. Let me say in the condition that I was in, I was pretty
well shaken up at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel that his being at the police department might
hurt him?

Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I didn’t think about that. That didn’t even
enter my mind whether it did or not. All I know is he said he took
sandwiches over there, and that is all I know on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you also——

Mr. SENATOR. Now why he took it over there, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You also didn’t mention——

Mr. SENATOR. Maybe I forgot a lot of things at that particular time,
being shook up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You also didn’t mention in this statement that you gave
the police department on the 24th——

Mr. SENATOR. Didn’t what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the statement that you gave to the police department on
the 24th.

Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t mention what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. You did not mentio