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Title: Warren Commission (14 of 26): Hearings Vol. XIV (of 15)
Author: Commission, Warren
Language: English
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INVESTIGATION OF
THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY
HEARINGS
Before the President’s Commission
on the Assassination
of President Kennedy
PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a
Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating
to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and
S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon
the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine
witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas
_Volume_ XIV
UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE
WASHINGTON, D.C.
U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964
For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S.
Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402
PRESIDENT’S COMMISSION
ON THE
ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY
CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_
SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL
SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER
REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS
REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD
MR. ALLEN W. DULLES
MR. JOHN J. McCLOY
J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_
_Assistant Counsel_
FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS
JOSEPH A. BALL
DAVID W. BELIN
WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr.
MELVIN ARON EISENBERG
BURT W. GRIFFIN
LEON D. HUBERT, Jr.
ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr.
WESLEY J. LIEBELER
NORMAN REDLICH
W. DAVID SLAWSON
ARLEN SPECTER
SAMUEL A. STERN
HOWARD P. WILLENS[A]
[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the
Department of Justice.
_Staff Members_
PHILLIP BARSON
EDWARD A. CONROY
JOHN HART ELY
ALFRED GOLDBERG
MURRAY J. LAULICHT
ARTHUR MARMOR
RICHARD M. MOSK
JOHN J. O’BRIEN
STUART POLLAK
ALFREDDA SCOBEY
CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr.
Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be
found in the Commission’s _Report_.
Preface
The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume XIV:
Curtis LaVerne Crafard, Wilbyrn Waldon (Robert) Litchfield II, Robert
Carl Patterson, Alice Reaves Nichols, Ralph Paul, George Senator, Nancy
Perrin Rich, Breck Wall (Billy Ray Wilson), Joseph Alexander Peterson,
Harry N. Olsen, and Kay Helen Olsen, all of whom were friends,
acquaintances, employees, or business associates of Jack L. Ruby; Earl
Ruby and Sam Ruby, two of Ruby’s brothers, and Mrs. Eva Grant, one of
his sisters; Jack L. Ruby; Dr. William Robert Beavers, a psychiatrist
who examined Ruby; and Bell P. Herndon, an FBI polygraph expert who
administered a polygraph test to Ruby.
Contents
Page
Preface v
Testimony of—
Curtis LaVerne Crafard (resumed) 1
Wilbyrn Waldon (Robert) Litchfield II 95
Alice Reaves Nichols 110
Robert Carl Patterson 126
Ralph Paul 134
George Senator 164
Nancy Perrin Rich 330
Earl Ruby 364
Eva Grant 429
Sam Ruby 488
Jack L. Ruby 504
William Robert Beavers 570
Bell P. Herndon 579
Breck Wall (Billy Ray Wilson) 599
Joseph Alexander Peterson 615
Harry N. Olsen 624
Kay Helen Olsen 640
EXHIBITS INTRODUCED
Crafard Exhibit No.: Page
5202 1
5203 56
5204 62
5205 63
5206 63
5207 64
5208 65
5209 65
5210 65
5211 66
5212 66
5213 67
5214 68
5214-A 68
5215 68
5216 68
5217 68
5218 68
5219 68
5220 69
5221 69
5222 76
5223 76
5224-A 76
5224-B 77
5225 77
5226 82
5227 92
5228-A 93
5228-B 93
5229-A 93
5229-B 93
5230 94
Grant Exhibit No.:
1 430
2 436
3 436
4 437
Herndon Exhibit No.:
1 586
2 588
3 589
4 591
5 591
6 592
7 593
8 593
9 594
10 595
11 596
12 597
Nichols Exhibit No.:
5355 111
5356 112
Patterson Exhibit No.:
5357 128
5358 133
Paul Exhibit No.:
5319 162
5320 163
Rich Exhibit No.:
1 344
2 345
3 346
3-A 346
4 346
Ruby (Earl) Exhibit No.:
1 412
2 413
3 423
4 424
5 425
6 425
7 425
8 427
9 427
Ruby (Sam) Exhibit No.:
1 488
2 489
3 490
4 492
Senator Exhibit No.:
5400 303
5401 304
5402 319
5403 319
Hearings Before the President’s Commission
on the
Assassination of President Kennedy
TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD RESUMED
The testimony of Curtis LaVerne Crafard was taken at 9:15 a.m., on
April 9, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs.
Burt W. Griffin, Leon D. Hubert, Jr., and Albert E. Jenner, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to start out by stating for the record, for your
purposes, also, Larry, that we are continuing this deposition under the
same authority which it was commenced yesterday morning, and I know
that there is no mistake on your part that the oath which you took
before is still in effect.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What we propose to do today is to go through in some
detail some of the papers which have come into our possession. The
first thing I want to ask you to look at is a notebook, which is a
blue cover spiral notebook entitled, “Penway Memo Notebook” and it has
Commission Document No. 717, but for the record I will clarify this
that this is not the same number as the numbers that we are using in
the deposition. I will give it a deposition number in just a minute. I
am going to mark this for identification on the front cover—I am going
to mark this on the inside of the front cover at the bottom in pen,
“Washington, D.C., April 9, 1964, Exhibit 5202, Deposition of C. L.
Crafard,” and I am going to sign it with my signature, Burt W. Griffin.
Mr. HUBERT. For the purpose of the record, count the number of pages
and half pages. Perhaps it is a good idea to initial the bottom of each
page with your initials.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. In addition to the front cover, what I am going
to do is number the pages at the bottom, and I will put my initials on
each. I will make it clear that I am numbering only the separate sheets
of paper. I am not numbering each side of the paper. We can refer to
these pages as the numbered side and the reverse side for purposes of
discussion.
Mr. HUBERT. Why don’t you have the record show that pages——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 10 is a blank. Page 11 is a half sheet of paper which
has been torn off and there is nothing written on that page. Page 14 is
approximately a third of a sheet of paper, the bottom two thirds having
been torn off, and it does contain penciled writing on it. Page 15 is a
full sheet. Page 16 is approximately a half sheet with penciled writing
on it. Page 17 is a full sheet. There is a total of 18 pages including
half sheets and third sheets of paper in the notebook, and there is a
blue hard cardboard front cover and a buff or dirty brown back cover
which is also hard cardboard. Do we have photostatic copies of it?
Do you want to put that in the record?
Mr. HUBERT. I just wanted to get them numbered the same way. We can do
that later.
(The document was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5202 for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Commission
Exhibit 5202, and ask you, Larry, if you recognize that.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; this is a notebook I used to keep phone numbers when
I was working for Mr. Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you buy that notebook yourself?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I bought this myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how soon after you went to work for Jack Ruby did you
buy that?
Mr. CRAFARD. About a week after I went to work for him. You look real
close on the front you will see my name on the front of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you write that in there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you read what you see on there?
Mr. CRAFARD. C. L.—Larry Crafard, Carousel Club. Its got 1312½ Commerce
Street, Dallas, Tex. It’s real vague on there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is an impression that simply comes through as
actually scratches on there and doesn’t come through in any color?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it doesn’t come through in any color.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you bought this book, did Jack Ruby give you any
instructions with respect to maintaining the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just use it to put phone numbers down in, addresses of
people that called in wanting to talk, called in, put the phone number
down so I’d know how he could get in touch with them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the notations that appear in there follow any sequence
either chronological or by topic or anything of that sort?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe they do, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to take the time to look at it and see if
you recognize any sequence in the entries?
Mr. CRAFARD. The first portion of the book on the first page is more or
less numbers which was used quite frequently.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to page 1?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; page 1.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you want to look over on the back of page 1; the
reverse side?
Mr. CRAFARD. It is also numbers that were used quite frequently.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, look at page 2.
Mr. CRAFARD. Page 2, I believe, was an address on the top of page 2. It
was an address that I wrote down for Mr. Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What about the remaining entries on there. Were they
numbers that were used frequently?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to look at the reverse side of page 2?
Mr. CRAFARD. There is only one number on there, on the reverse side
of page 2 that we used very frequently. That was Little Lynn’s phone
number.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The front part of page 3?
Mr. CRAFARD. From the numbers on there, as far as I know, there was
only one of them that was used very frequently. It was Mickey Ryan. On
the reverse side is just more or less notations that were taken down
from phone calls. Then on page 4 is just numbers that were taken down
from phone calls. The first number on page 4, Norma Bennett, that was
that one girl I was trying to tell you about yesterday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. She was the waitress?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; she was the one I started saying about that Jack had
tried to get to work as a stripper to get her to work for this friend
of his, Ralph Paul.
Mr. HUBERT. What you mean is that during your testimony yesterday you
remembered her name as Norma but you did not remember her last name?
Mr. CRAFARD. I did not even remember her first name, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I thought you mentioned that her name was Norma.
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you now say that the person you were
testifying about yesterday who tried to get work and who was ultimately
placed at work by Ruby with Ralph Paul was Norma Bennett?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And the entry on page—what is it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Page 4.
Mr. HUBERT. Refreshes your memory to that extent, right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. On the reverse side of page 4 is just notations.
No. 5 is just notations, with some things that Jack had to do on that
day. Then the reverse side of 5 is just notations, phone calls. No. 6
is some draws that I took on different days. The reverse side of No.
6 is just notations, mostly for phone calls that was taken. No. 7 is
just notations with the exception of the top number, the top name, Joe
Roskydall, who was a friend of mine while I was previously living in
Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, in the pages that you have gone through so far,
have you noticed any handwriting in that book that is not your
handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As you go through this, if you do recognize any
handwriting that is not yours, would you point that out to us?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. On the reverse side of page 7 there is just
notations from phone calls. The bottom half of that page written in ink
isn’t my handwriting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize whose handwriting that is?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to recognize Jack Ruby’s handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I am not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to recognize Andy Armstrong’s handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I would recognize Andy’s writing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that appear to be Andy Armstrong’s handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to look at page 8?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is my writing on page 8. That is just phone numbers,
addresses that was taken down that Jack Ruby give me to write down,
addresses that he wanted to keep. On the reverse side of that is a
couple of phone numbers. I don’t recall what they were for. Page 9 I
don’t have any idea what that was for. I don’t recall it all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your handwriting on page 9?
Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like my handwriting, yes. The reverse side of
page 9 is blank. Page 10 is blank. A portion of a page, page 11, is
blank.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 11, incidentally, is a half sheet of paper. Do you
recall in using this notebook whether you had occasion to rip out
portions of the notebook?
Mr. CRAFARD. A couple of times I took a piece of paper and put a phone
number on it for Jack. Page 12 is just a few notations for some things
that I had to buy for myself. The reverse side of page 11 is——
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the reverse side of page 12?
Mr. CRAFARD. Page 12, yes; is just notations. Page 13 is a couple of
notations.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 13 is in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. This number in East Waco may not be mine. I don’t
know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to what appears to be 3902——
Mr. CRAFARD. East Waco.
Mr. GRIFFIN. East Waco, and that is written in pen?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I don’t recall I ever wrote it down, and it doesn’t
look like my handwriting.
Mr. HUBERT. Page 10?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; page 13.
Mr. CRAFARD. Page 13. The reverse side of that page is my handwriting.
It is just notations. Page 14 is some notations I took while I was
trying to make arrangement to ship a dog to California. It is about a
third of a page.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you read page 14 for us? It is a little difficult to
read.
Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not even sure what it is, myself. I can make out the
name Frank Fisher underneath, but that is all. I believe the rest of it
is something, Boeing Insurance it looks like.
Mr. HUBERT. How is it spelled?
Mr. CRAFARD. B-o-e-i-n-g. The reverse side of page 14 is just
notations. 15 is just notations. I don’t remember the bottom portion
of that number wrote in dark blue ink.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It begins with “WE-7-3037”?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What page?
Mr. CRAFARD. Page 15.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then there are three more lines which appear to read on
one line, “063” on the next line “Herman” printed, and the letters
“Flore” and then those are crossed out and written above it in longhand
is the word “flowers”. And then directly under “Herman Flowers” is in
longhand “from Wax-a-hatchy.” Do I understand that you do not recognize
that writing, for example, “from Wax-a-hatchy”, as being in your
handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. “Wax-a-hatchy”, I believe, is my handwriting. The rest of
it I don’t recognize. On the reverse side of that is figuring. That is
definitely not mine. Page 16 is just notations. That is about 2/3 of a
page. The reverse side of that page is just notations, people calling
in wanting reservations. Page 17 is just notations in my handwriting.
The reverse side of page 17 is just notations. Page 18 is just
notations in my handwriting. The reverse side of that is just notations.
Mr. GRIFFIN. With the exception of the pages in that book which you
have indicated are blank, every page in the book is filled, which means
that there are only a total of 18 pages in the book altogether. Do
you recall from looking at this notebook whether when you bought the
notebook it had more pages in it than appear to be there now?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it did have. I’m not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall ripping out any of the pages?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall ripping out any full pages; no, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether in making the entries in that book
you used pages in a consecutive fashion or whether you made entries on
pages at random so that there would be many blank pages interspersed
among pages that had writing on them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Most of it, I believe, was—from the first portion of the
book, from the front to the back was pretty well in rotation. If I turn
it over to the back and maybe flip over four or five pages and make a
notation in it, as I recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you mean by that that you would leave some blank pages
at the back?
Mr. CRAFARD. As I recall, there was blank pages left spaced in the back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So your testimony would be that the book as you see it now
is not in the same condition as it was in when you left Dallas on the
23d of November?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else about that book which appears to be
different from the way that you remember it when you left Dallas on the
23d?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can notice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any general questions, Mr. Hubert, that you
want to ask about the book?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I would like to. What was the purpose of keeping that
book?
Mr. CRAFARD. I used it, Jack would get calls he wanted to keep the
number of and I’d write the number down in this book and later transfer
to another book, and then I would use it if a phone call come in
somebody wanting to talk to Jack I’d put the number down where he could
get in touch with them at so I could give him the number to call.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you testified that the first three or four pages
were made when you first bought the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And were in fact numbers that you knew or he told you would
be frequently called, is that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; the first two pages on both sides.
Mr. HUBERT. He gave you those numbers?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you were to keep the book in order to advise him
currently, that is to say, daily, of the calls and messages and so
forth that came in?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. I suggest to you, therefore, that that book, in order to
serve the purpose that you stated, it was being kept for, would have
been used by making the entries in sequence as they came up and not
skipping around?
Mr. CRAFARD. I used the front of the book for numbers that Jack give me
that he wanted to keep. Then I’d use the back of the book for people
that called in for reservations at the club or he’d give me some
numbers he wanted to use right then, but he wouldn’t want to keep them,
or something of this sort.
Mr. HUBERT. My point is that when you first started to use the book did
you just put the first series of entries other than those numbers that
were frequently called just at random on any page, or would you put it
in the next available page?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would usually be on the next page. Sometimes I would
skip maybe two or three pages.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any reason for doing that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I’d want to have the pages there, a couple of blank pages
there, like this one here which should have been torn out. I don’t know
why I didn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. What page are you referring to?
Mr. CRAFARD. The reverse side of page 12. It is a list of some
sandwiches I went out and got for a couple of the girls that worked at
the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you suggesting to us that the book served several
functions and that there were different portions of it for each
function?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that the back of each page was used for
the function of putting down reservations.
Mr. CRAFARD. I might use two or three pages right in a row for that, or
I might take a page right out of the middle of the book.
Mr. HUBERT. And leave it in the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. Usually I tore the page out. The pages I transferred over
and when I got the book full I’d just throw the book away and get
another book.
Mr. HUBERT. Which book are you talking of?
Mr. CRAFARD. These notebooks like this.
Mr. HUBERT. You had more than one?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I had one other notebook similar to this, the
same type of a notebook as this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did with that notebook?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. I thought you testified that this was the one that you
started off with.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. There was another one that you bought later?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I used it quite frequently. I’d tear the pages out
and write down the reservations a lot, most of the time. I had this
book and when I started putting reservations down I thought I’d get
another book and use it for that and then I’d have this one just for
the phone numbers and I wouldn’t mess up the reservations.
Mr. HUBERT. Then the other book, when it was used up, as it were, was
thrown away?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have been through it. What we want to find out is
if there is any way that one can tell by looking at the book about the
date when any particular entry was made.
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you saying that you skipped around arbitrarily?
Mr. CRAFARD. It might be 2 or 3 days before I’d put anything down in
this book in a row, maybe. Personally, I couldn’t say anything about
the dates when I made the entries.
Mr. HUBERT. Suppose that you hadn’t used the book for a couple of days
and then you found occasion to make an entry. Would you make that entry
right following the last one you had made or would you make it at some
other page?
Mr. CRAFARD. Several times I would flip over in the book to the next
empty page, put down an entry, and later I’d take the first few pages
that I had left out, left where I could and there would be a number
Jack would want to keep and I’d write the number down. These numbers on
the first couple of pages here, I think the first page is all numbers
that I got the first day and then the others is numbers I added to it
later.
Mr. HUBERT. Then are we to understand that there is no possibility of
determining the sequence of events recorded in that book by referring
to the order in which they appear in the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, an entry on one of the later pages might
have been made prior to the one on the earlier page?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you testified, Larry, that you would sometimes flip
the book over and make entries on the back of the pages, and as you
have just done in front of us, you have turned the book over on its
face to the back of the book. Do I understand your testimony to mean,
then, that you worked, for some of your notations you worked backward?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. From the back of the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But am I correct in understanding that the pages in the
front of the book which have writing on the back side of the numbered
page were not entries that were made in this fashion that we have just
been describing but followed in the ordinary sequence that you would
have made in working from the front of the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. The first two pages in the book, as I
stated before, are numbers that he wanted to keep. I would fill the
front of the page and then turn the page over and fill the reverse side
of that same page.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you go through there, would you leaf through
those pages from one on, and tell us what the first page is that you
recognize that wasn’t made by working from the front of the book and
filling in sequence the back of the page after you had filled the front?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it would be page No. 4.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the back of page 4 has entries on it which might have
been made because you were working from the back of the book forward?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, I believe so. I believe that is where I made those.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You also explained to Mr. Hubert that you would transfer
some of the entries from that book into another notebook.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you describe the other notebook for us?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a Penway notebook, but it was a larger notebook. It
was a memo pad, I believe is what it was. Was wide enough that it had a
dividing line down the middle of the page, a red dividing line down the
middle of the page.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who purchased that notebook?
Mr. CRAFARD. I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long after you purchased this small Exhibit 5202
did you purchase the notebook that you have just been describing?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was about 3 or 4 days later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that book kept physically?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly on Jack’s desk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you leave that notebook at the Carousel when you left?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any entries that were made in that notebook
which were entered directly into that notebook without being placed in
some other notebook first?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there were a few in the last couple or few pages
in the notebook.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The entries that were in this larger Penway notebook
which you have been describing, did they include all of the telephone
numbers that are in this small Penway notebook which we have before us?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, not all of the numbers. There were numbers—the numbers
that Jack wanted to keep and used quite frequently.
I believe all of the numbers on both sides of the first two pages were
in that book along with some other numbers that he had given me that he
wanted to keep that I wrote down there in the front.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were all the numbers that were placed in the large Penway
notebook placed there at Jack’s instructions or did you place some of
them in there on your own initiative?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was numbers that Jack wanted to keep and he asked me to
write down, he had asked me to get another book and write them down in
it so he could have them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Up to the time that you bought this larger Penway
notebook, had Jack been maintaining a notebook?
Mr. CRAFARD. Very seldom that he used a notebook. He had a book full of
numbers he very seldom used it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he keep that book of phone numbers?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he had one on his desk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what kind of a book that was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was a regular phone number and address book.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think you would recognize that book if it were
shown to you again?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, do you recall at this point if there were other
entries in this small Penway notebook which you have identified as 5202
which you do not see in there now?
Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn’t say definitely that there was; no, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to refer now to the inside of the front cover.
At the top of the inside of the front cover there is a number which
appears to be “261-TA3-8101.”
Is that the way you would read that number?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would read it 261-7A3-8101.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that number?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, can you tell us what the number is underneath that?
Read it for the record.
Mr. CRAFARD. FE 5-3366.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that number?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a number under that, 612. Do you have any idea
what connection that has?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you see the name “Jeff,” which is written under 612?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who that might refer to?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t recall who it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the next number under Jeff?
Mr. CRAFARD. TA 1-1782.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That “T” is written the same as what you thought was a No.
7?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In 261——
Mr. CRAFARD. Just a second. Half the time I’ve got to figure it out,
myself.
Yes, that would be TA there, too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it what you are indicating is that you have a
tendency to make your “T’s” look like “7’s.”
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize this number TA 1-1782?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on the top of page 1 there is some sort of a word
written.
Mr. CRAFARD. The word “save.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the significance of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. That I want to save that piece of paper, that particular
sheet of paper, that I don’t want to destroy it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that the notation “Vegas Club” with its number
under it is the telephone number of the Vegas Club.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the next number is written “Jack’s home” and under
that “Whitehall 15601.”
That is Jack Ruby’s telephone number at home?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell us what this next notation “Buddy” Fort Worth——
Mr. CRAFARD. Buddy, Fort Worth, phone No. AX 3-0118 with the words
“twist board” underneath it is the fact that this Buddy was a gentleman
Jack called in reference to the twist board. I believe that is one of
the gentlemen had something to do with making the twist boards in Fort
Worth.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what Buddy’s last name was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not positive. I believe it was Buddy Heard.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your understanding as to Buddy Heard’s connections
to the twist boards?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that he had something to do with the production
of the twist board in Fort Worth.
Mr. HUBERT. What leads you to believe that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Because of the way it is set up here, he give me the
number, he give me the twist boards. It was something to do with either
the production or the selling of the twist boards.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, there is a line, rather a vacant space under “twist
boards.”
I would just as soon that you not make entries in the book.
After that blank line there is some writing “Fort Worth” and some other
things that follow.
Would you read that into the record, and then tell us what the
significance of that is?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would be the word “Fort Worth” phone No. “ED-51266”
with a dash, and the words “give to Mike Shore only.” That would be a
number where Jack Ruby could be reached and he didn’t want me to give
the number to anyone but Mike Shore.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why he didn’t want to give it to anyone but
Mike Shore?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Mike Shore a person that Ruby dealt with regularly?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he talked to Mike Shore two or three times a
week on the telephone.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have occasion to meet Mike Shore?
Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not sure, sir. I believe he was in the club. I’m not
positive.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have occasion to meet Buddy Heard?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall where Mike Shore lived?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you to state again what this entry in connection
with Mike Shore pertained to?
Mr. CRAFARD. The number would be a number where Jack Ruby could be
reached but he didn’t want me to give the number to anyone but Mike
Shore.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever call that number, ED-51266?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the number ED-51266 entered into this book the first
day that you got the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was within the first 2 or 3 days, I’m positive of that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have occasion to call Jack Ruby at that number?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I recall. I don’t remember making a call at that
number.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack say anything to you which would indicate how
often he visited the premises that that telephone number was located at?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a specific recollection of the conversation
that you had with Jack which resulted in making this entry in the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was over the telephone, and he called in, and
I believe I said something about Mike Shore had called wanting to talk
to him, and he give me that number and told me to give it to Mike Shore
only.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate whether he would be at that number only
that day or for a short period of time, or whether he could be reached
there every day, or what?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was just a couple hours that day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, under the name “Mike Shore only” there is another
line which has no writing on it, and then there is an entry “St.
Charles FL 7-0520.” What is the significance of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the name St. Charles is the last name of a
gentleman that Jack Ruby knew, but I don’t recall ever meeting the
gentleman or ever calling him to talk to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how that entry came to be put in the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, other than the fact that Jack give me the number. I
believe there is reference to that same number further on in the book.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Perhaps when we get to it we can discuss it at that point.
Mr. CRAFARD. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn over page one then.
There are no further entries on page one, are there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And we will look at the reverse side of page one.
Now, there is a name written here “Abe”——
Mr. CRAFARD. Klinman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How is that spelled?
Mr. CRAFARD. K-l-i-n-m-a-n.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Abe Klinman?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know what his position was or what he done for a
living, but I believe I met him at the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a local Dallas citizen?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this somebody that Jack dealt with regularly?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. Four or five different times that I know of Abe
called the club, and several times that Jack called Abe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a telephone number under there, “RI 8——”
Mr. CRAFARD. “4272.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Abe Klinman’s?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the next line there is something written in there.
Mr. CRAFARD. The word “personal,” the letters “UN,” that is a telephone
No. “UN-3-0400.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Whose number is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mr. Earl Ruby’s in Detroit, that is his home phone number.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were at the Carousel, do you recall Jack’s ever
telephoning Earl Ruby or Earl Ruby ever telephoning Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack phoned Earl two or three different times. I don’t
recall Earl phoning Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall why it was Jack called Earl?
Mr. CRAFARD. In connection—the one time that I can really recall was in
connection with the twist boards.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon was that after you went to work for Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that would have been about 2 or 3 weeks after I
went to work for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what do you recall about that telephone call?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just the fact that he told Earl about the twist boards,
and he told him he’d send him a couple of them and some of the
advertisement he had on them, so he could promote them a little bit up
Detroit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you overhear this telephone conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; there was something said about how they was
doing there, how they was selling there in Dallas, and the fact that
Jack thought that they would really go over pretty good up in Detroit,
Chicago, and in that area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is a number under “Earl Ruby, Detroit” is
written under “personal UN-3400” and under “Earl Ruby, Detroit” there
are some other notations. Would you indicate what those are?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would be the No. 313 would be a code number, I believe,
for Detroit. The phone No. “UN 3-5590” which would be the business
number for Earl Ruby, and the words “Cobo Laundry” with the address
“18135 Livernoise Avenue,” Livernoise Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. May I point out for the record that Livernoise is written
on two lines along the right-hand side of the page under the line
which says “Cobo Laundry 18135” on it, and it is bracketed off from a
notation, which is “Ed Pullman” and on the next line “TA-34484.”
Do you recognize the name Ed Pullman?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was a gentleman there in Dallas, I believe, that Jack
called several times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what his dealings were with Ed Pullman?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I do not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line under that telephone number, “UN-3” and
then “UN-3” is scratched out and then on the following line there is a
name written. What is that name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Leona Miller.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was she?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was a girl that called in connection with or
in answer to an ad that Jack Ruby had in the paper for waitresses.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So this entry, “Leona Miller” would not represent somebody
whom Jack called regularly?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not to my knowledge; no, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It doesn’t really go with the group of numbers then that
we have been talking about which were sort of permanent numbers?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Ed Pullman though. Would he fall in this
category of people that Jack called regularly?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there is a telephone number under the name Leona
Miller, and then there is a blank line, and there is something written
on the next three lines. What is that on the next three lines?
Mr. CRAFARD. Clark Dotty, I believe it is, D-o-t-t-y.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the telephone number.
Mr. CRAFARD. WH 1-1227.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Clark Dotty?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t; sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the reverse side of page one does it not?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Just before you finish that, let me ask you this. I notice
that there is apparently the name Clark Dotty written out at the bottom
of page one or the reverse of page one, and when it is written the
first time the word “Clark” seems to be written and scratched through
and then Clark Dotty is written again under its number.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Are both of those entries in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why you wrote it twice?
Mr. CRAFARD. About the only reason I can see here would be the fact
that when I wrote it the first time instead of the name Clark I put
some other name down. Then I wrote over it and I couldn’t make it out
so I wrote the name Clark Dotty underneath it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, do you recognize the name Mary Ray?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet Ed Pullman’s wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not to my knowledge, no, sir. Not that I can recall I
should say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the top of page 2 there is an entry. Mar-Din Co.
underneath that the name Henry Denture. The address 404 South Well,
Chicago 7, Ill. Phone number HA 7-3172. Do you remember how that entry
came to be made in the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was the number, if I can recall right, Clark called in
connection with the Earl Products Co. There is a company that I believe
Jack said this Mr. Denture and himself had been partners in one time in
Chicago. The company had went broke but they still had the papers and
everything on the company. It had never been dissolved. He was using
this as a name to sell the twist boards under, the Earl Products Co.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than contacting Henry Denture at the Mar-Din Co., do
you know of any other dealings that Jack had with Mar-Din?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; that I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your understanding that Henry Denture was involved
with Jack in the sale of twist boards?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you have that understanding?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack give me that understanding when he give me this Earl
Products Co. number, this number so I could call the Earl Products Co.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean the Earl Products Co. was at the same address and
number as this Mar-Din Co.?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; from what I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to ask on
this?
Mr. HUBERT. I understood you to say that Jack wanted to communicate to
the Earl Products Co. the fact that Mar-Din and Henry Denture would be
associated with the twist boards?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Referring to page 2 of Exhibit 5202, I take it that the
first six entries starting with Mar-Din Co. and ending with Earl
Products all relate to the same thing, is that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And were all entered about the same time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I am not clear just what the significance is and I wish
you’d state it again.
Mr. CRAFARD. This Henry Denture, he called, he said it had been checked
with him in this Earl Products before in Chicago and he was using the
Earl Products Co. as a name to sell the twist boards under.
Mr. HUBERT. Henry Denture was?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack Ruby was, and he called Henry Denture in Chicago
about the twist boards.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you overhear the call?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was there when he made the call. I don’t recall just
exactly what was said but it was something about the twist boards.
Mr. HUBERT. And he called a man called Henry Denture?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you why he wanted you to make this entry?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was just a number he wanted to keep.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, could the name Henry Denture be a mistake? Could
the last name really have been Kenter?
Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been; yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that?
Mr. CRAFARD. It is quite similar and I could have made a mistake and
put a “D” down in place of a “K.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now after the entry Earl Products Co., there is a line
with nothing written on it, and then there are two names. What are
those two names?
Mr. CRAFARD. Doris Land and Peggy Taylor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall either of those two girls?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they were girls who called in answer to the ad
that Jack was running in the paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the telephone number TA 4-6895?
Mr. CRAFARD. Would be the number where they could be reached at.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now under that there is the name Teddy Walters, and Teddy
is written in longhand and Walters is printed. Are both of those your
handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you recall who Teddy Walters was?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I do not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is a telephone number under that. What is that
telephone number?
Mr. CRAFARD. FE 7-4644.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an entry under that which looks like A. F.
McKnight, with a telephone number LA 6-2251. Do you remember anything
about A. F. McKnight?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Jack called, had a conversation with him a
couple of times on the telephone. Other than that I can’t recall
anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what those conversations were about?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 2 on the front side.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn the page over and ask you to look at
the back of page 2. Now there is a number WH 2-2371. Do you recognize
that number?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; it doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is written in pen and then there is a line with
nothing written on it, and then there is the entry Riverside 7-2362
Earl Products Co. How did that entry come to be put down?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was a local number Jack had me put down for
the Earl Products Co. If I recall right that was the pay telephone of
the Carousel Club, and anybody, he said if anybody called the Carousel
Club asking about this Earl Products Co. or anything about that, to
give them this number to call.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So Jack didn’t want the Earl Products number to be
associated with his personal phone at the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now was there a personal phone at the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just a business phone, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A business phone. What was the number on that business
phone?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember it, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it the same number as on his home phone?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; can I go back a little bit on this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. CRAFARD. Going back to page 2 starting with the Mar-Din Co., the
number below that I believe, the HA 7-3172 if I remember right it
seems to me that this number and the address were different. It seems
to me this number was either a Fort Worth or a Dallas number, and
this address up here was just an address where I sent something, or
something of that sort.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. CRAFARD. I was thinking about that and it kind of didn’t——
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t think the HA number is a Chicago number?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I believe that is either a Dallas or a Fort Worth
number after I think about it a little bit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are clear that there were two different telephones at
the Carousel Club. One was a pay phone and the other was a business
phone?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that the Riverside number was the business
phone number?
Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been; yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an entry, there is rather a line with nothing
written on it after the entry Earl Products Co., and then there is a
name and address and some numbers written; what is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Bill DeMar, Wichita, Kans. The telephone number JA 4-4241.
The telephone number JA 8-6116. Bill DeMar was a comedian that Ruby
had hired to come down to the club, and these are the numbers where
he could be reached. I believe one was a motel number and one was a
business number or something of that sort. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The entries in connection with Earl Products Co. and Bill
DeMar are all written in pencil.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And I want to ask you if these would have followed in
sequence or whether you were making these entries in there because they
were entries which were to be kept or sort of on a permanent basis?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe they follow sequence, I don’t believe the
number of Bill DeMar, numbers would be anything we would keep on a
permanent basis as far as I can recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you also don’t think that Bill DeMar called shortly
after or that number was given to you shortly after the Earl Products
number was given to you so that the two of them were made at roughly
the same time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive of that, sir. They could have been.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you about Bill DeMar. Did Jack have any
business with Bill DeMar other than to hire him as an entertainer?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After the entries in connection with Bill DeMar, there is
a line on which nothing is written, and then there is an entry Little
Lynn OP 34, and then 817—JE 4-8525. Do you remember making that entry?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember approximately when that entry was made?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I couldn’t say for dates. It was made about I
believe 2 or 3 days before Jack hired Little Lynn.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how did that call happen to come in?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember how it come about, but he give me the
number so he could have it to call Little Lynn.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack gave you that number or did you answer the telephone
and get that number from a long distance operator?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Jack gave me the number. I am not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after that there are some entries. Some figures
written on the next two lines. Can you tell us what those numbers are?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t know what they mean. There is the number
875, and number 1750. It seems like a hyphen behind the numbers with a
dash, and a three behind that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You haven’t any recollection what that might relate to?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the reverse side of page 2.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn over to page 3. What is the name
written at the top?
Mr. CRAFARD. The top line is “See Paul Lubeachick.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. How does he spell that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that is L-u-b-e-a-c-h-i-c-k, I believe. On the
next line is “Here at 9:30.” That would be that Paul Lubeachick was
going to be at the club at 9:30 and wouldn’t be able to be there too
long and he wanted to see Jack and I was to tell Jack when he called on
the phone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The next entry is also an entry for Bill DeMar.
Mr. CRAFARD. It is Bill DeMar, Evansville, 824 West Idewild Drive, HA
3-7245, and I believe that was Bill DeMar’s home address; I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there is an entry in pen which follows that. What is
that entry?
Mr. CRAFARD. Ruth Shay, Inwood Road, FL 2-5494.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Ruth Shay?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was a girl called in connection with the ad
that Jack ran in the paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she ever hired?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there is a line and the name Mickey Ryan with a
telephone number.
Mr. CRAFARD. Mickey Ryan, DA 4-4378.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a number that was put in there for permanent
reference.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was his home number.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How often did you see Mickey Ryan?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have saw Mickey Ryan probably about eight or nine times
while I was working for Jack. Excuse me please.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.
Mr. CRAFARD. It seems to me that number should have been on the first
couple of pages that wrote down, but it seems like I transferred the
number to the front of the book after I wrote the number down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Mickey Ryan number?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mickey Ryan’s name and number are something that Jack
would keep on a permanent basis?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mickey come at any particular time of the day or night?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; he’d come in sometimes in the afternoon for a
little while and then maybe he would be in in the evening.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And would he visit with other people in the club besides
Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. Sometimes Jack wouldn’t even be at the club. He’d come in
and talk to Andrew and I, and just visit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. These eight or nine times that you saw him, were they
spread out over the entire period that you worked there or was it just
in one particular brief period that he came in?
Mr. CRAFARD. Over the entire period of time I was working for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the first time that you met Mickey Ryan?
Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not clear. No, sir; I don’t recall exactly when I met
him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about the first time that you do recall meeting
Mickey Ryan and what happened.
Mr. CRAFARD. The first time I really remember talking to Mickey at the
club I believe he came in one afternoon and I was in the club. There
was a letter that had come for Mickey Ryan to the club and I gave that
to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody else receive mail at the club besides Mickey
Ryan?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was two or three people that had worked at the club
previously that had mail sent to the club after they left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mickey have anything to do with the sale of twist
boards?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Mickey’s relationship with Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I know they were just friends.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any view about Mickey as to whether he was a
homosexual?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mickey seemed to be pretty decent guy. As far as I could
figure there was nothing of that sort there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever learn how Mickey met Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mickey have any kind of business dealings with Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned that Jack had a bookkeeper.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what his name was?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But that wasn’t Mickey Ryan?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a friend of Mickey Ryan’s?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, sir. It might have been.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what Mickey Ryan’s occupation was?
Mr. CRAFARD. As far as I knew, sir, he was a bartender.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a club called there a couple of days, a couple of
different times asking for Mickey. I believe it was at the Gun Club
where he went to work. When I first met him he was unemployed and then
he went to work afterwards.
Mr. HUBERT. It was your impression that he went to work as a bartender
at the Gun Club.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You formed that impression from what he told you?
Mr. CRAFARD. When they called they called asking for him and they said
they wanted him in reference to a job, and he said he was trying to get
a job as a bartender.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember his having told you that he had gotten the
job?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; that is the reason I formed the impression that
he had been a bartender.
Mr. HUBERT. He told you so.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I want to go back to that top entry on page 3 “see Paul”——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me finish up on Mickey Ryan a second. Do you know what
kind of a club this Gun Club was?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I had never been there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it just a bar or was it a place where people went to
shoot skeet or trap or something like that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, sir. I believe the call came in as the Hunt
Club or something like that or Hunter’s Club or something of that sort,
the call came in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you are not sure that the name of the club is the Gun
Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you have any idea where that club is located?
Mr. CRAFARD. It is near Dallas somewhere but that is all I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if it is in downtown Dallas or in the
outskirts or what?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was on the outskirts of Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this have been a country club, a golf club of some
sort?
Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, I am finished with that.
Mr. HUBERT. Going to the top of page 3 that entry “See Paul Lubeachick
here at 9:30.” I think you added something to that entry to the effect
that that entry meant that that man was going to be there at 9:30?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. The part you added was that he couldn’t stay very long.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is the impression that I had when I talked to him,
sir. He said something about——
Mr. HUBERT. You have a distinct recollection therefore of that
particular episode and that man?
Mr. CRAFARD. Of the call coming in; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a call?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. The man gave you that name and said that he would be there
at 9:30?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But that he could not wait very long?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was something like the fact that he would be
there at 9:30 and he wanted to see Jack, that he couldn’t stay there
for any length of time.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he came in at 9:30?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall, sir. After the club opened I was too busy
to notice who came in.
Mr. HUBERT. With an entry of that nature isn’t it fair to say that you
would have conveyed that information in its totality to Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you would have told him not merely that the
man was coming in at 9:30 but that he had said he couldn’t wait very
long.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall having done so?
Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not positive, sir. I don’t recall it clearly.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever at any time after that see a man named Paul
Lubeachick?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember, sir. I don’t believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. But you do remember that you told Jack he couldn’t wait
very long?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember Jack’s reaction to that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe Mickey Ryan and a telephone number under there
is the last entry on page 3.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn over page 3 to the back. There is the
name Stanley Kaufman and a telephone number after that. Did you ever
meet Stanley Kaufman?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall ever meeting him, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who he is?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now was Stanley Kaufman a name that Jack would have wanted
kept on a permanent basis?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line with nothing written on it following the
entry in connection with Stanley Kaufman, and there is a notation
“Wednesday pay bill at phone company.”
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that something you were to do?
Mr. CRAFARD. Something I was to remind Jack to do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would we be able to date anything in this book from that
entry of Wednesday pay phone bill, for example, if we knew when Jack
paid his telephone bill in October or November? Would we be able to
draw any conclusions as to all of the entries in the book which appear
before that entry “Wed pay bill at phone company?”
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line after the entry in connection with the
phone company, and then there is something written. What is written?
Mr. CRAFARD. Riky Kasada.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And is that somebody’s name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your spelling of a name that was spoken to you or
did somebody actually dictate that spelling to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is my own spelling.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So it is simply what we would call your interpretation of
the phonetics?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Riky Kasada?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After that there is another name.
Mr. CRAFARD. Scotty Milles, M-i-l-l-e-s.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Scotty Milles, M-i-l-l-e-s?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir, M-i-l-l-e-s.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was he?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a she. She was the woman who called me in reference
to Mickey on this job.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, she called to inquire about Mickey Ryan?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you remember the conversation you had with her?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she indicate where she was calling from?
Mr. CRAFARD. She said something about a club or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it this Hunt Club or Gun Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any connection between Riky Kasada and Scotty
Milles?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Under the entry reference on Mickey, there is a line and
then there are some figures written there. Do you make anything out of
those numbers?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would those be expenses that you had or money that you
took out of the cash register?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. No?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think if you sat here awhile and thought about it
you might be able to make something out of this?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. It might be some bills that I had
paid or something. Maybe some champagne I had bought or something like
that that I had put down, the money I had been given and what I had
spent.
Mr. HUBERT. You are clear though that those figures refer to money?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say so by the way they are wrote down.
Mr. HUBERT. Is the significant point about the way they are written
down that indicates that they refer to money.
Mr. CRAFARD. The number 1420 is wrote down like you write down $14.20.
Mr. HUBERT. By doing what to the 1420?
Mr. CRAFARD. Putting the dot behind your 14.
Mr. HUBERT. You put the decimal?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the way you write money?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So that you would say that those figures being in your
handwriting would be the way you would write figures concerning money?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back side of page 3. I want to turn to
page 4 then. What is written at the top of page 4?
Mr. CRAFARD. The name Norma Bennett with the number CA 4-2234.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Bennett or Barnett?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is Bennett. As I have wrote it it appears to
be Barnett.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you think the name is Bennett.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now who is Norma Bennett?
Mr. CRAFARD. She is a young lady that called in connection with the ad
that Jack had ran, subsequently came in and met Jack. Jack tried to
talk her to go to work as a stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she ever work for him in any capacity?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of, sir; not around the Carousel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first see her?
Mr. CRAFARD. When she came into the club the day after she phoned.
I believe that was about 4 weeks before President Kennedy was
assassinated.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you talk to her at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your conversation with her?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just getting acquainted with her more than anything. She
seemed like a pretty nice girl. We got along pretty well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did she remain in the club that day?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was around the club most of the afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And was Jack there during that period?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack came in after she arrived.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did Jack stay while she was there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he spent a couple of hours around the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any conversation Jack had?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not particularly, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. With reference to the entry on page 4 concerning Norma
Barnett, is there any doubt in your mind that, as it is written, it is
Barnett and not Bennett?
Mr. CRAFARD. No doubt in my mind it is spelled Barnett, B-a-r-n-e-t-t.
Mr. HUBERT. You got that over the phone when she called; is that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What makes you think that her name was not really Barnett
but Bennett?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that I already spoke of her as Norma Bennett I
believe when I spoke with her. I recall that.
Mr. HUBERT. Your testimony was that you subsequently met her.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you then learn that her name was Bennett instead of
Barnett?
Mr. CRAFARD. I very seldom used her last name after I met her. I
believe when she introduced herself it sounded to me like she said
Norma Bennett when she introduced herself to Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. Obviously when you heard it over the phone you thought it
was Barnett because that is the way you put it down.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But thereafter you think you learned from her that it was
Bennett?
Mr. CRAFARD. I might have misspelled it to myself or something. I
referred to her as Bennett all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. To whom did you refer as Bennett?
Mr. CRAFARD. Whenever I used her name to Jack a couple of times when we
was talking about her.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever use the name Bennett to her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall ever using her last name to her, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that you really don’t know what her last
name is?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the next word after CA 4-2234?
Mr. CRAFARD. Waitress.
Mr. HUBERT. And then under that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Judy Armstrong.
Mr. HUBERT. What is under that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Congress, the phone number Congress 9-2576, Carlton, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think those four lines beginning with waitress and
ending up with Carlton, Tex., all deal with the same transaction?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the word “waitress” doesn’t deal with the
direction above it but the transaction below it?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What was that, a call from somebody who wanted to be a
waitress?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever meet that person?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall meeting her.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if Jack called her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know if he called her or not, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; let’s pass to the next entry under that.
Mr. CRAFARD. Excuse me 1 minute, please. It seems to me this Judy
Armstrong was a number that one night one of the girls was sick and one
of the other girls that had the night off and we needed another girl
and this is a girl that had worked for Jack, I believe, and we tried to
call her. I am not positive of that. Or we tried to call her to go to
work or something.
Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying is that insofar as the entry concerning
Judy Armstrong which begins with the word waitress and ends with
Carlton, Tex.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You first testified that you thought that this was a person
answering an ad?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now you think that actually you all sought to call her to
work in place of someone who was ill?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the way it worked out she had called in
connection with the ad and we had her number down on the list of girls
to call and one night we needed a girl and we tried to call her and
couldn’t get in touch with her. Tried to call her to come to work and
couldn’t get in touch with her.
Mr. HUBERT. So that the entry on page 4 was actually made as you said
it was?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When she called applying for a job but you have an
independent recollection other than the entry that on some occasion you
called her to just see if she could substitute?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether you reached her.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall reaching her, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have never met her?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; what about Burt Nelson?
Mr. CRAFARD. Burt Nelson, Chez Femme, the phone number EM 3-6324, and I
don’t know who Mr. Nelson is.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that Chez Femme?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that is a place he worked, I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a place is it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall, sir. I believe it was a clothing store of
some sort.
Mr. HUBERT. A what?
Mr. CRAFARD. A clothing store of some sort, sir, I believe, I am not
positive.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the entry under that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Buddy, hyphenized, Floyd Turner, phone number LY 2-5903,
Tyler, Tex. I don’t remember ever meeting him. I believe Jack referred
to him as Budd Turner though.
Mr. HUBERT. Would that be a call that had come in or a call given to
you by Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure, sir. I believe it was one given to me by
Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about that man?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Never met him.
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear his name spoken other than in this
connection?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s turn over to the next page then which is page 5.
Would you read it because I can’t read your handwriting.
Mr. CRAFARD. Page 5 or do you want to read the reverse of page 4, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I want to read the reverse of page 4 I beg your pardon.
Mr. CRAFARD. It starts with line Linda phone number RI 2-0720, and the
initials R. W. Bowsher.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that those three entries relate to the same
thing.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe they do, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Then tell us what they do mean independently.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the line DA and the line number is a number
where we could get ahold of this girl Linda, but the R. W. Bowsher I
have no recollection of what it would be.
Mr. HUBERT. Does it seem to be written with a different pen or pencil?
Mr. CRAFARD. The pencil that was used for the word Linda and the phone
number seems to have been sharper than the one used for R. W. Bowsher.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it your custom to separate independent episodes by
leaving a blank line between them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have done so most of the time; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In this case you don’t seem to have done so.
Mr. CRAFARD. Sometimes I would put them right under something else.
Mr. HUBERT. Anyway your recollection now is that you think the word
Linda and the telephone number under it is independent from the line
that immediately follows which reads “R. W. Bowsher?”
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is Linda?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, sir; I don’t recall.
Mr. HUBERT. You said she was a——
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she was more like a girl that called in answer
to the ad we ran in the paper.
Mr. HUBERT. What about R. W. Bowsher, then?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall anything about him.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s pass to the next entry which is separated from R. W.
Bowsher by a blank line.
Mr. CRAFARD. Buddy Heard, Loflin Hotel, phone number KE 2-4672.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t that 71?
Mr. CRAFARD. 71, yes sir. And underneath that the numbers 5336827, and
100 North Florence—and the word “office.” I believe that would be the
fact that Buddy Heard was staying at the Loflin Hotel. The KE number
would be a number where we could reach Buddy Heard. The next number
down would be probably a number for the office. I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. And the telephone for that office.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe would be the 533-6827. I am not positive.
Mr. HUBERT. You think that those five lines beginning Buddy Heard
and ending 100 North Florence—office are all related to the same
transaction?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would believe so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think they are not related to the line which
immediately follows starting “Burt called?”
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I believe that is something entirely different.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Buddy Heard?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive. I believe I have met him. I am not
sure. But “Burt called” underneath that——
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s not leave Buddy Heard yet. Does the name mean
anything to you at all? You might have some recollection in your mind?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have heard the name mentioned several times but I don’t
know what Heard done for a living. I believe he had something in
connection with the actor’s union. I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t think you have ever met him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Go to the next entry, then.
Mr. CRAFARD. Burt will call later. You have his home number. I believe
that would be all related.
Mr. HUBERT. Those four lines would be related to one another?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What would be the significance of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. The fact that this Burt called and wouldn’t leave the
number but said that Jack had his home number.
Mr. HUBERT. “You” there refers to Jack, right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this was a note that was being written so
that when Jack read it if he weren’t there he would know it was written
to him?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is Burt?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall who he was.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. That finishes the back of page 4. Mr. Griffin,
do you want to start with page 5?
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, you got through the entries “Burt called.”
For my own clarification, did we identify where the Loflin Hotel is,
which city that is in?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; we didn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where that is?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure. I believe that it is Dallas. I am not
positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are all of the entries from Buddy Heard to 100 North
Florence—office——
Mr. HUBERT. That has been covered.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then on the top of page 5 there is a series of notations.
Would you read those off.
Mr. CRAFARD. “Get ad off to Hyman.” In other words things to tell Jack,
to remind Jack he had to do was to get an ad off to Hyman, pay a phone
bill and go to the bank and then appointment call to Earl.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what ad there was to get off to Hyman?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was the ad in connection with the
twistboards. I am not positive. We were sending an ad to this Hyman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where the ad was to be placed?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. He was to mail it, I believe, I am not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the meaning of “appointment call to Earl”? What is
an appointment call?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had called and asked the operator to place the call at
a certain time and to call him back when the connection had been made.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The mailing of the ad to Hyman and the paying of the phone
bill and the going to the bank and the appointment call to Earl, did
these all occur on the same day?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line drawn under appointment call to Earl. It
separates the page in half roughly.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the significance of that line.
Mr. CRAFARD. It would be that this top portion of the page would have
been 1 day, things I had wrote down for 1 day. The bottom of it would
have been another day or on 2 or 3 days later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is an entry there “get post office box.”
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was that in connection with?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was going to get another post office box to
use for this twistboard setup.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he already have one post office box before that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was receiving the mail through the Carousel
Club and his home address.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a number under there RI 1-0345. Do you know whose
phone number that is?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is a line with nothing written on it after that,
and there is another entry. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. “Pauline called” at I believe 4 and will be in about 7 or
something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was Pauline?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was more or less I’d say the assistant manager over at
the Vegas Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That was Pauline Hall.
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front part of page 5; is that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to ask on
those entries on page 5?
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the appointment call with Earl?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Those entries at the top of page 5, the four of them, the
things that you were to do or remind him of, were they simply told to
you by Jack over the phone or in person and then you were to remind him
the next day or later?
Mr. CRAFARD. Things that Jack said and I was to remind him the next
day. I believe on this phone call he had tried to place it one day
and he couldn’t get the phone call through so he arranged for an
appointment call the next afternoon I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you do it yourself?
Mr. CRAFARD. If Jack did?
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember him doing it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can remember him placing, trying to place a call to Earl
one day and he couldn’t make it and he arranged a call for the next
day. But I don’t know if this was the incident or not.
Mr. HUBERT. What this simply means is that you were to remind him of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That was then your function with respect to it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall Jack ever mentioning or did you ever hear
anything about the Triangle Manufacturing Co.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall it, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if Jack had any dealings with any people in
Wisconsin?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to turn over to the back of page 5. There is a
name written at the top of the back of page 5. What name is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jerry Lindsay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Jerry Lindsay?
Mr. CRAFARD. He called in wanting a job. He had been a floorman in
another club and he called in asking about a job at the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is a floorman?
Mr. CRAFARD. A polite way of saying bouncer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack employ a bouncer while you were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to Jack about why he did or did not, why
he didn’t have a bouncer?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any need for a bouncer?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; not the Carousel Club. This would have been in
connection with the Vegas Club, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a tougher crowd at the Vegas Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. They had sometimes some pretty tough crowds out there on
weekend nights. People would get drunk and start giving them trouble.
The floorman would talk to the man trying to get him to quiet and if he
wouldn’t be quiet he would escort him to the door.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Vegas Club didn’t have stripteasers did it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yet there was a tougher crowd there at the Vegas.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. The type of crowd that frequented the clubs, the Carousel
Club and the other burlesque shows in town was the businessmen more
than anything, whereas the Vegas Club’s clientele was more or less
common laborers, working people. It was a dance club where you could
go in and buy beer, soft drinks and you could dance, and the clientele
there was of the rougher nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I was a little bit confused in your testimony yesterday.
Was it your impression that Jack was doing better financially off the
Vegas than off the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. Definitely; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you say that with positiveness? What makes you so
positive about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Two or three different times Jack said if it wasn’t for
the Vegas Club he would have had to close the Carousel down a long time
before. The Vegas Club was making enough money to keep the Carousel and
the Vegas both running.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think he kept the Carousel open?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know, sir. There had been a stretch where I guess
he had had pretty bad luck with the Carousel, hadn’t been making much
money and he used the money he made from the Vegas Club to keep the
Carousel going at that time from what I understood.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the time you were working there was the Carousel
carrying its own?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes, sir; to my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you felt that in the month or 2 months that you
worked for Jack, both the Vegas and the Carousel were self-sustaining
operations?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After this entry about Jerry Lindsay, there is a telephone
number TA 7-2553 floorman, and I understand from your testimony those
all should be read together. Then there is a line with nothing written
on it and there is a notation which I wonder if you can decipher.
Mr. CRAFARD. “Talked to Leo—Mrs. Grant.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recall the significance of that, who Leo was?
Mr. CRAFARD. He worked at, I believe he was handling the floor at the
Carousel most of the time. I don’t recall what his last name was. I
believe this was the night that I stayed at the Vegas Club for Jack the
first night. I believe Leo called and I talked to him and then I talked
to Mrs. Grant right away. Mrs. Grant called right away after that and I
talked to her. I am not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your impression that the call from Jerry Lindsay was
also taken at the Vegas Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the call from Jerry Lindsay was taken at the Carousel
Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the telephone number under that, EM——
Mr. CRAFARD. That is FL 1-9303.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; do you know what——
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall what it would be in connection with, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or the next telephone number.
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 5. Now let me turn over to page 6.
There are some entries on there, Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday,
Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, and then from Sunday through Monday you
have entries of amounts of money after that. Did you make those entries
on there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what do those refer to?
Mr. CRAFARD. It refers to draws that I made from the till.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what week that would have been that you made
that entry?
Mr. CRAFARD. No sir; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The entries for Thursday, Friday, and Saturday are not
complete. Do you have any recollection on the basis of that that it was
the last week that you worked there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so, sir. I don’t believe it was. I
might have been but I don’t believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Larry, I notice that nowhere else in this little book are
there entries of that nature. Can we assume that you only kept such
records for 1 week or rather 4 days of 1 week?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe this was because of the fact that Jack had
agreed to start paying me a salary and he wanted me to keep track of
my draw slips, draws on that, and then it appears about Wednesday or
Thursday he told me to quit keeping it, didn’t have to keep track of it
any more or something.
Mr. HUBERT. When you first went there it was just on a draw basis.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you talked to him about a salary?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He told you that he would think it over.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And your testimony now is that after you all had talked
about a salary he wanted to know what your draw was so that he could
adjust the salary accordingly, is that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So that these entries would have been made about the time
that you talked about a salary?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir. It would have been about 3 weeks before the
assassination of President Kennedy I believe, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That you talked about——
Mr. CRAFARD. About the salary; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It is fair to say then that these entries relate to that
week, to wit, about 3 weeks before the assassination.
Mr. CRAFARD. It would be 2 or 3 weeks before the assassination.
Mr. HUBERT. You said that the significance of the fact that there are
no entries for Thursday, Friday and Saturday is that Jack told you that
it was no longer necessary to keep a record of your draws?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would believe so; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What did that mean with respect to whether you were going
on salary or not?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember what it had to do with that, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go on a salary?
Mr. CRAFARD. I never was paid any salary.
Mr. HUBERT. But you do remember he told you to stop keeping a record.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that would be the reason that I quit. I don’t
actually recall him saying so but I believe that would be the reason.
Mr. HUBERT. Doesn’t that refresh your memory?
Mr. CRAFARD. No sir; it doesn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t let me finish but I will repeat it. Doesn’t that
refresh your memory with respect to the fact that you all had agreed
upon a salary then? Could it have any other significance?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had said something; he said I would draw a salary but
I don’t believe there was ever any exact figure agreed upon. I don’t
remember of any.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on Wednesday, although you had not agreed
on what the amount of the salary would be, your recollection is that he
told you it was no longer necessary to keep this because there would be
a salary?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. But there never was any salary paid at all.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you normally make these entries?
Mr. CRAFARD. Whenever I’d make a draw. Usually in the evening I made
most of my draws.
Mr. HUBERT. And you would put it in the book immediately.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; usually.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that sometimes you would put it in there
the next day.
Mr. CRAFARD. I might sometimes the next day; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact also that at the beginning of that week you
wrote down all of these days and then the entries were made as you drew
for each day?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now an entry for Thursday would have been made on Friday,
wouldn’t it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it would have been made on Thursday.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you just told me that there was at least the
possibility.
Mr. CRAFARD. There was a possibility I would have waited until Friday
but I believe I would have made the entries on the day I made the draw.
Mr. HUBERT. I am suggesting to you that these sets of entries have to
do with the week in which President Kennedy was killed, and that is
that you had agreed upon a salary on the Wednesday.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall exactly what week they had to do with, sir;
really. It could have been that week.
Mr. HUBERT. But you had agreed on salary?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But not the amount of it?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And you never were paid any?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. For instance, the Saturday before you left Dallas you were
not paid a salary.
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Had a salary been agreed upon prior to that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall that, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. If it had it would have been paid wouldn’t it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it would have been.
Mr. HUBERT. Doesn’t that pinpoint then this series of days as being the
week during which President Kennedy was killed on a Friday.
Mr. CRAFARD. It seems to; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After the entry “Saturday” there is a blank line and then
there is an entry “call home as soon as possible.”
How did that come to be written?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember, sir. It could have been somebody called
in to have one of the girls call home or something like this. A couple
of the girls had been married and had children.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a note left for Jack Ruby or for yourself?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe it was for Jack Ruby. I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you carry this notebook on your person at all times?
Mr. CRAFARD. When I was in the club it was in my pocket all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And when you were not in the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Most of the time it would be in my pocket, anyway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there is a telephone number written after the previous
entry, and it is RI 1-4643. Do you remember that entry?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t remember it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 6.
Now let me turn over page 6 to the back, and there is something written
on there, Schroll. Is that in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then there is the name Dick Gifford, KTVT, Fort Worth,
TA 3-7110. Is that in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you remember how this Schroll name happened to be
written down?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or who that refers to?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Dick Gifford?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was I believe an MC over at the KTVT.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you remember how that entry happened to be put in
there?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was something in connection with the twist board setup.
I called him in connection with—Jack give me the number to call and ask
for this Dick Gifford.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you say to Dick Gifford?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was something on the price of advertisement
on TV, for a TV advertisement or something of that sort.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what makes you think that it was the price of a TV ad?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly this next line hasn’t got anything on it. It has
been erased. I believe I erased it, 150 for 1 minute, and I recall this
150 for 1 minute was in connection with a TV advertisement.
I don’t remember whether I made the call or whether Jack made the call
or what.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After the line 150 for 1 minute, which is partially
erased, there is an entry “Names of record shops where it can be
bought.”
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that refer to?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure of what it does refer to, sir. Probably a
record of some kind that Jack was wanting to get ahold of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any records that Jack was interested in
buying?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was buying records and bought a lot of records he gave
away as prizes in the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of records were they?
Mr. CRAFARD. Such records as, Belly Dancer and Striptease for Your
Husband. Rusty Warren records and such as that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So they were what you might call party records?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; party records.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack show an interest in any other kind of records
besides party records.
Mr. CRAFARD. Not for the club that I ever saw.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about for other purposes?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember him ever saying anything about records
for anything else.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back part of page 6.
We will turn over to the front part of page 7. There are some entries
there. Are those entries all in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The first entry is Joe Roskydall.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us again who Joe Roskydall is?
Mr. CRAFARD. The name Roskydall is the last name of a friend of mine.
This Joe was a number in the phone number I called when I was trying to
locate this friend of mine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your friend’s first name.
Mr. CRAFARD. Robert Roskydall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And was Robert living with Joe Roskydall?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I figured they might be related. He had been around
Dallas for quite a while and I thought they might be related in some
way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is something written on the next line after Joe
Roskydall. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like Benning, EV 1-6260.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that have any connection with Joe Roskydall?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what Benning was?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is written on the next line?
Mr. CRAFARD. W. J. Groveland, DA 1-5178.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a person?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how that entry came to be?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is another entry there.
Mr. CRAFARD. Dick Lenard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; who is Dick Lenard?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall that, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is another one.
Mr. CRAFARD. KTVT TA 3-7110.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the same number that you had for Dick Gifford.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that indicate that there was a second call made?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that this KTVT here was wrote down before the
other one was. It was later he give me the name Dick Gifford for the
same number.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After the entry about KTVT there is a line with nothing
written on it and there is some more writing.
Mr. CRAFARD. E. J. Evans.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who he was?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the next?
Mr. CRAFARD. Stevens Park Beauty Salon, 2140 Forth Worth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the significance of that entry?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack had me calling the beauty salons trying to get them
to promote this twist board for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you call more than one beauty salon?
Mr. CRAFARD. I called several of them around Dallas. I don’t remember
calling any in Fort Worth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you do when you would call these beauty salons.
Mr. CRAFARD. Talk to them about the twist boards.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How would a typical conversation go.
Mr. CRAFARD. I’d call them and tell them——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Introduce yourself?
Mr. CRAFARD. Introduce myself and tell them that I was promoting a
twist board exerciser and tell them a little bit about the exerciser
and that we would like to arrange a deal where we could put this
exerciser in their salon, put it for sale in their salons.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you make any placements?
Mr. CRAFARD. No sir. Excuse me, but this one here was 2140 Fort Worth
Avenue in Dallas, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be in Dallas.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. The phone number would be WH 6-9755. Underneath that
is mail brochure. I believe we were supposed to mail a brochure to them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that is mail brochure and not Maisel Brothers.
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I am positive that is mail brochure, almost positive
of that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what were you supposed to do?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mail a brochure to this Stevens Park Beauty Salon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have brochures printed up?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after you started to work for him did he have
these brochures? When did he first have them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was about 2 weeks before President Kennedy
was assassinated he got them. He hadn’t got them very long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe the brochures? How many pages were they?
Mr. CRAFARD. One page. It was a sheet, I believe it was 7½ inches long
and I believe it was about 5½ inches wide.
It said “Twist a waist exerciser,” and then it showed an exerciser
board. Then I believe it showed a couple of the different positions of
a person on an exerciser board. I am not positive of that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How big were these twist boards?
Mr. CRAFARD. They were about an 8-inch square.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were they made out of?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was a 1½-inch pressed board.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be wood of some sort.
Mr. CRAFARD. Pressed wood.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a fiberboard?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is not a plastic though?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe these boards were made out of sort of a plastic
glue in the press board. Then underneath that would be a ball-bearing
disk, sort of a twist setup with a small piece of masonite attached to
the bottom of that. The board would twist on the ball bearings.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And would you lie on the floor on this thing?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; you would stand on it and twist.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who designed this item?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know who originally designed the item.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get the impression that Jack had designed it
himself?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t really know, sir. I never got any idea of who had
designed it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the brochure, did it have a picture of the twist board
on it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so. I am not positive of that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 7, doesn’t it.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The front part of page 7.
Now turning to the back of page 7, there are some entries in pencil,
are those all in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what is the first entry?
Mr. CRAFARD. Ed McMulmore it looks like. It is probably spelled wrong.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that name?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then there is two telephone numbers written after that.
Mr. CRAFARD. There is the word “Johnnie call Detroit.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. But there are two telephone numbers.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then the note “Johnnie call Detroit Helene.” What does
that have to do with—?
Mr. CRAFARD. Johnnie was the first name of one of the MC’s Jack had
working for him. I don’t recall the last name. He got a call to call
Detroit, to call Helene in Detroit. Apparently he had the number
because that is all I got. I was told to have him call Helene in
Detroit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Helene was?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir. I thought it was possibly his wife.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then there are three blank lines.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And a number written upside down. What number is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is RI 6-6807.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that number?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. I don’t believe that is my handwriting. It
doesn’t appear to be. For one thing for the fact that it is wrote with
the page turned upside down, for one thing, and the numbers aren’t
shaped like any numbers are shaped.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible, referring to the top of the page, that
this entry which looks like Ed McMulmore is really Ed Mc, and then
Mulmore?
Mr. CRAFARD. It could be; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that mean anything to you reading it that way?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now written on the right side up on the back of page 7
after the entry RI 6-6807, there is another entry. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. CEN, which would be I believe the abbreviation for
Central, and EX, which I believe would be the abbreviation for
Expressway, dash 5400.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that have to do with?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t think anything. I believe that is my writing. Let
me see.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is or is not?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is. Wait a minute, Jack was going somewhere
or somebody else was going for him and he was having trouble, didn’t
know how to get there. Somebody was going somewhere and they didn’t
know how to get there and I was talking to the people they was going
to see and they told me to have him turn at Central Expressway 5400 on
McKinney to 2500.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Those are directions to get to some place?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; McKinney, but I don’t remember where.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And were they directions for you or for Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. For somebody else. I don’t recall who it was for.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For a friend of Jack’s?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall. I give the directions to somebody else but
I don’t recall who it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is it your understanding then that you would drive out
Central Expressway to the 5400 block?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then at the 5400 block you would find McKinney?
Mr. CRAFARD. Make a right-hand turn I believe on McKinney, the 2500
block.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think you make a right-hand turn?
Mr. CRAFARD. I remember something about the conversation. I am trying
to remember. I can’t remember too much of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a conversation you had with somebody on the
telephone?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was. I am not positive. I would not swear
to it but I believe it was over the telephone that I was given these
directions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you were to pass the directions on to somebody else?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What part of Dallas would that be in, following those
directions?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it would be the southern portion of Dallas, I
am not sure. It seems to me 5400 on Central would be the other end of
Dallas, the southern end.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back part of page 7. Now on page 8
there are some entries. Whose entries are those?
Mr. CRAFARD. These are my entries.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, the first one has to do with somebody named
Lenard Woods.
Mr. CRAFARD. Lenard Woods, his social security number, his address,
3420 Medow, Apt. No. 235. These gentlemen on this page are all members
of the band that played at the Vegas Club, and it would be Milton
Thomas, his social security number, with the address 2220 Anderson,
the phone number HA 1-1026; Clarence McInnis, social security number,
the address 2607 Oakland, no phone number; James Dotson, the social
security number, the address 1136 Fletcher, his phone number RI 7-7436;
the name James T. Aycox, his social security number, 2715 Hebornia;
I believe it is with a notation under that that he also was known as
Bear; they called him the Bear. His phone number was HA 1-1026.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to come to put all of those notations
in there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack’s sister took sick. He had me get the names and the
addresses of the boys. I had understood him to say he wanted it for tax
purposes and I got the social security numbers too, so he could get in
touch with them for one thing when he did want to get in touch with
them and also for he said tax purposes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see these men at the Vegas Club and get the
information there or did you call them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I got these from, it was either Jack’s sister or
Pauline. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front side of page 8.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the back of page 8 there are some entries. What are
those entries?
Mr. CRAFARD. The numbers, the phone number WH 3-9783. That doesn’t mean
anything to me whatsoever. The phone number TA 7-9088. I can’t make out
what is underneath it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know for sure. It could be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And this telephone number doesn’t mean anything to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 8. Let’s look at page 9.
There are some entries there. Are those in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t remember every making an entry of that sort.
For one thing this phone number has been gone over two or three times.
These numbers $3, $3.50, that has no meaning whatsoever to me. None of
this has any meaning to me whatsoever. I don’t recall ever making an
entry of that sort.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you ever even decipher this 18 and then a 12 and then
something is written. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like M-M-L-E-S or it could be M-E-B-L-S. That is
as close as I can come to it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a telephone number RI 7-5610 also on that page.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And is that in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so. It could be. It could be, I am not
positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 9, doesn’t it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The front part. And there is nothing written on the back
of page 9.
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is nothing written on the front or back of page
10.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 11 is a half sheet of paper and there is nothing
written on the front or back of what is left of that. Now on page 12
there are some items “supporter, shaving cream, after shave lotion,
tooth brush, code 10 hair cream.”
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And they are personal items?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That you purchased for yourself?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after you began to work for Jack was that entry
made?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe about 2 or 3 weeks after I went to work for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you left?
Mr. CRAFARD. That would be at least 4 or 5 weeks before I left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the front part of page 12 and there is nothing
else on the front part of page 12. On the back part of page 12 there
are a number of entries. Can you read those off to us.
Mr. CRAFARD. The name Bonnie?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Bonnie?
Mr. CRAFARD. She is one of the waitresses at the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is after that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Salami, swiss cheese on rye with mayonnaise.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what is the entry.
Mr. CRAFARD. Ham and cheese with mayonnaise.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an M or something up ahead.
Mr. CRAFARD. That signifies the mayonnaise.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. CRAFARD. PS, I don’t know exactly what that PS meant there. There
is ham and cheese with mayonnaise. I am not sure what the first part of
this was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that be Betty or Becky.
Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been Becky, probably Becky; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a girl there named Becky, a waitress?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; a waitress. Then the next entry on the page is Bill
Remike.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he?
Mr. CRAFARD. He called in for reservations at the Carousel Club. To
continue with that, Bill Remike, two couples at 9:30 they asked for
good locations. The next entry on that is the name Proctor, one couple
at 9 o’clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is also a reservation.
Mr. CRAFARD. Also a reservation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back of page 12.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now page 13, there is an entry.
Mr. CRAFARD. The phone number WH 2-5326, Bobby Patterson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Bobby Patterson.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was at the Vegas Club, one of the players at
the Vegas Club. I don’t have his name down. He had something to do with
the band at the Vegas Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he somebody that you saw? Had you met him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I met Bobby Patterson; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times would you say you met him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I saw him once or twice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe once at the Carousel Club and I believe I saw
him at the Vegas Club one time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall now the time you saw him at the Carousel,
when was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. He come in in the afternoon and talked to Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall how long he stayed?
Mr. CRAFARD. He wasn’t there very long, maybe 15 or 20 minutes at the
most.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall what he talked about with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was something about, had something to do with
who was in charge of the band at the Carousel or the Vegas Club or
something of that sort. I am not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the time that you think you saw him at the Vegas
Club.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe one night when I went over with Jack he was
there. He played at the Vegas Club. I am trying to get it straight.
I think he was a guitar player. No; wait a minute, a horn player,
saxophone player I believe it was. And this buddy of his, they had an
act where the buddy lay down across two chairs and he stepped up on his
buddy’s chest and he stood on his buddy’s chest playing his horn.
I believe that was Bobby Patterson. I am not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could this guy have been a police officer?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I am very doubtful of that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t know any Bobby Patterson who was a police
officer?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is no question that you had met a guy named
Bobby Patterson.
Mr. CRAFARD. No question there; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would Andy Armstrong know Bobby Patterson?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe he would.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That entry is in pencil and there is a line with nothing
written on it and then there is another entry under that. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. It appears to be 3902 East Waco.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who made that entry?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you testified before you didn’t think that was
your handwriting.
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I would change that. I would say that was 0902 if you
take a close look at it. You can see that, 0902 East Waco.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or could it be E Street Waco?
Mr. CRAFARD. It might be that, but I never made the entry, I would
remember it if I saw it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front part of page 13. On the back of
page 13 there are some entries. What do those seem to be?
Mr. CRAFARD. I’d say the first one would be call Jack at the Carousel.
The next one would be call Mr. Ruby at the Carousel. The next one would
be Tex Lacy. It is prevedo I would say or something like that. That is
all I can make out. Pre, and v-e-d-o.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that mean anything to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. Were these entries “call Jack Carousel” and “Call Mr.
Ruby at the Carousel,” were these your entries?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I believe this would be my entry here, too. I am not
positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And were those notes for yourself or——
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was something I told somebody else or
something. I don’t even—I can’t even figure why I would write it down.
I don’t know. That doesn’t really look like my handwriting. I wouldn’t
have put “Call Mr. Ruby.” I’d put “Call Jack.” And this looks like
“Mr.” up at the top of the page. It is something I can’t ever remember
putting something like that on the top of a page without finishing it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back portion of page 13. Page 14 is
about a third of a sheet written in pencil.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that say?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure what it is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated this is Boeing and something or other
afterward.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then “Frank Fisher.”
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Frank Fisher?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you indicated before that you thought that was in
connection with twist boards.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you still think that?
Mr. CRAFARD. It could be twist boards or something to do with these
dogs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think something to do with the dogs?
Mr. CRAFARD. Boeing would be possibly Boeing Aircraft and I was making
arrangements to ship one of the dogs to California, so it could be
something to do with one of the dogs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall a Frank Fisher who was a musician and who
was a friend of Jack Ruby’s?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe I ever met him. I am not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That information doesn’t refresh your recollection about
Frank Fisher at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front part of page 14. On the back of
page 14 there is a telephone number.
Mr. CRAFARD. TA 7-2553. I don’t recall what the number would be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then a notation about?
Mr. CRAFARD. “Tuna fish with lettuce wholewheat toast dry.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the back of page 14. Now on page 15 at the
top there is an entry. What is that entry?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it is Charley Boland, KTVT with a number LA
6-8303.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember making a call to that number?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything about that notation?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; sir. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the next telephone number on there, WE 7-3837?
Mr. CRAFARD. That doesn’t mean anything to me. I believe I stated
before I didn’t believe I put that down.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about “Herman Flowers,” that doesn’t mean anything to
you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So the entry here “Herman Flowers from Wax a Hatchy” is
the last entry on the front part of page 15.
We will turn that over and on the back of page 15 there are a lot of
numbers written down.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do those numbers have to do with?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have no idea. It is definitely not my figuring.
(Short recess taken.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. We are on page 16 and we are looking at the first entry on
the page. What does that entry appear to be?
Mr. CRAFARD. “K. Hamilton.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that mean anything to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the rest of the page, I would say that it was somebody
had called in for reservations.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It says, “9—3 couples between runway.”
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that page 16 is a half sheet of paper and there is
nothing more on the page, and turning it over on the back part of that
half sheet of paper there is an entry. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. “Mr. Miller Friday 15 people Collins Radio Co.” It would
be somebody called in for reservations for 15 people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is another entry under that.
Mr. CRAFARD. “Cody-City Hall.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know who Cody was?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack had said something about it. I think he was an
officer of the law. I’m not sure if he was an officer of the law or a
lawyer, or what he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you recall? Do you recall the name Joe Cody?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t recall the first name of the gentleman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you recall that Jack said about Cody?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall what Jack really did say. It had something
to do with when he give it to me it was something to do with city
hall, he had to see him, or he wanted me to remind him to call him, or
something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When would this have been?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Shortly before you left?
Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been 2 or 3 weeks. I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is nothing further on that half sheet of paper, is
there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, looking at the top of page 17 there is a number
written. What is that number?
Mr. CRAFARD. “TA 3-8101.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whose number that is?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that would be the doctor’s number. I’m not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Under there is written the name “Dr. Aranoff.”
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your writing?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who Dr. Aranoff was?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was Mrs. Grant’s doctor, as I recall it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any conversation with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can recall. I never had any conversation
with the doctor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a line with nothing written on it. And the next
line has what looks like a telephone number on it. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. The number “FR 4-2764.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a Dallas telephone number?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive of that. It might be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the number familiar to you at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t recall the number at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And on the next line, what is written?
Mr. CRAFARD. “LA 8-4716,” the name “Debby.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the name Debby familiar to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is a line with nothing written on it, and then
there is another line.
Mr. CRAFARD. “Overton Rd.,” and “Hawthorne” underneath, it would be
Hawthorne Road Drive, I believe, “Porta Build, Inc.” company. This is
all something of my own here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did that have to do with?
Mr. CRAFARD. This is all on my own. At that time, I was going to try
to get in touch with my brother-in-law who lives in Dallas, Tex., and
this Overton Road, I believe, is where one of the people that I went to
church with lived, out on Hawthorne Drive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Porta——
Mr. CRAFARD. I had at one time worked for Porter Building Corp.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When had you worked for them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had worked for them the year before, the previous year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you going to contact them?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was thinking about, maybe seeing if they needed any men
down there, or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you make that entry?
Mr. CRAFARD. This was about a month before President Kennedy was
assassinated.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever contact them about a job?
Mr. CRAFARD. I called them one time, I believe, and the gentleman
wasn’t there that I had talked to, and I never called back. The Litot
Trailer Park, that is where we was staying, where my wife and I lived
when we was living in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the next entry on there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the telephone number?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is the number of the Litot Trailer Park.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes page 17, the front half. On the back half
of page 17 there is a notation. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Call Buddy Heard, El Paso, dial direct, tell them that you
are in town, that you are a friend and would like to get in touch with
him. This is something for Andy. He was to call Buddy Heard in El Paso.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Andy go to El Paso?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; he was to make a call; dial direct to El Paso as if he
was in El Paso. I don’t remember exactly what it had something to do
with. It seemed like this Buddy here was a comedian or something that
Jack was trying to hire or something of that sort.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Andy going to try to hire him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think it was just he was doing that for Jack, trying to
find out how to get in touch with him. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there are two lines with no writing on them, and then
there is another entry. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. The name Mary.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anybody named Mary, in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. It has no meaning to me except the fact that my
sister-in-law’s name is Mary.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the telephone number under that?
Mr. CRAFARD. It has no meaning to me whatsoever.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then the next telephone number?
Mr. CRAFARD. It has no meaning, either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That last telephone number on the page is RI 1-1456, and
the other telephone number on that page is DA 4-4378. That concludes
the back of page 17. Turning over to page 18, there are some entries on
there. What is the first entry on the page?
Mr. CRAFARD. It is D 2 with a dash and then the figure 175, $1.75.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure unless it is maybe some draws I took that
day or something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that is $2 and not $200?
Mr. CRAFARD. It might possibly be $200.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any dealings with anybody about spending $200?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the notation after that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack took $20 from the bar till.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when that was?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is another entry after that, “Pete White Atty.”
Mr. CRAFARD. Pete White, attorney, Fidelity Union Life Building, with a
number, RI 1-1295.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make that entry?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall anything about Pete White?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what is the next entry on there?
Mr. CRAFARD. The next entry has to do with the twist boards. It is,
“Call beauty salon; tell them that I have a twist-a-waist exerciser,”
and let them have it for $2; in quantities for $1.75 each.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it fair to suggest that the $2-175 that is written at
the top of the page and this same entry about $2 and $1.75 both relate
to twist boards?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the front part of page 18. Turning over to
page 18——
Mr. CRAFARD. The first thing on the page is “Jimmy Rhodes can tell
where to get blowups at.” Some blowups of some pictures that Jack
wanted and this fellow Jimmy Rhodes could tell him where to get them at.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jimmy Rhodes?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I heard Jack mention the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is a line with nothing written on it, and the
name?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mr. Wooldridge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some idea?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is another line with nothing written on it. Then
there is a telephone number.
Mr. CRAFARD. The number WH 6-6220.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that number mean anything to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And there is another line with nothing written on it; and
the notation “8-5 tomorrow.” What did that have to do with?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is another line with nothing written on it. And the
name Bob Litchfield.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember him?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And a telephone number after that.
Mr. CRAFARD. It is TA 7-9301.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then a name after that.
Mr. CRAFARD. Mrs. Moddy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is she?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was his bookkeeper. I’m not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there are some numbers. That concludes page 18, does
it not?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. With the exception of a telephone number, RI 7-5311, which
is right under the name Mrs. Moddy.
Mr. CRAFARD. I imagine it is her number.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is some writing on the inside of the back
cover. There are three telephone numbers, RI 7-7436, CH 2-3442, CH
2-4114. What do those numbers relate to, if you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, there is another number Newton. There is a name
Newton. Does that mean anything to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not positive of that. It doesn’t appear to be my
writing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the number written under the name Newton?
Mr. CRAFARD. 2550.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is not your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I don’t ever recall of having wrote any of those
written in ink.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be everything on that page except the RI 7-7436?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on the outside portion of the back cover there are
some other things written on there. See if you can tell us what those
are.
Mr. CRAFARD. The name J. L. Coxsey.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know this person?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. The name Coxsey is the name of one of the gentlemen I
went to church with when my wife and I were living in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How would that be spelled?
Mr. CRAFARD. His name was Lee Coxsey.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the same gentleman?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. And there is the number under that
that I can’t make out. Then there is a number EV 1-6979, and there is,
it looks like LV or something. I can’t understand that a bit. There is
the number FL 2-8995.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those things in your handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you left that book when you departed
from Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was either in Jack’s office or in the room right in
front of his office where I slept days. I’m not positive whether I left
it on his desk or on a stand in my room.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But in any event did you leave it in the open, or did you
leave it in a drawer?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was lying right out on top of a table or a
desk, whichever it was. I’m not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert do you have any questions you want to ask?
Mr. HUBERT. Did I understand you to say earlier this morning that
normally you kept that book on your person?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t leave it hanging around?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. On occasion, Jack would be there and I
would be giving him a number and he would want me to go down maybe get
a paper or something like that and I’d leave the book lay on one of the
tables near the phone and go down and come back up.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you would get your book back?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I guess it is fair to say, then, that except for those
occasions, and then when you left the book, when you departed from
Dallas, the book was always in your possession?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever notice that some of the entries were made by
someone else in that book prior to the time you left for Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to say that they were not made prior to the
time you left for Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, specifically, some of the entries that you have said
are not in your handwriting——
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were not in that book when you left for Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. What makes you sure of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Nobody else had wrote in the book.
Mr. HUBERT. No one had a chance to?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack would have had a chance to on a few occasions?
Mr. CRAFARD. On a couple of occasions he had a notebook just like it
that he carried himself.
Mr. HUBERT. But you never saw these entries even after Jack had
occasion to write them in?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. I never noticed them.
Mr. HUBERT. And no one else had a chance to write them in?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible that those entries were written
prior to the time you left Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I doubt it very much. It was possible, but I doubt very
much if they were.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you testified this morning earlier, too, that the book
seemed to be somewhat different from when you last saw it in Dallas.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In what ways did it seem different?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there were more pages in it than was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Pages with writing, or blank pages?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t recall whether they was all blank pages or whether
they had writing on them, or what.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it this way: Do you recall any particular pages
that are not in that book at the present time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You are not in a position to say, then, really, that any
pages with information on them have been taken out?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Your impression that the book is different than it was
before you left Dallas is based then upon the size of the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Does it seem to have fewer blank pages now than it did
before?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I thought there was half a dozen or so blank pages in
the middle of the book last time I used it.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your purpose in leaving the book in Dallas when
you determined to go away?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was numbers that, to me, that had to do with this
business and they didn’t mean anything to me, so I just left it there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you do that deliberately?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I figured they was numbers that he wanted. It didn’t
mean anything to me. I had no use for it.
Mr. HUBERT. You wanted to see that he got them?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know where you left the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. I either left it—I am not positive exactly where I left
it. It was either in his office on the desk or in my room on a stand
where he would have saw it.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why you didn’t write a note saying why you
were leaving, where you would be?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t say why other than what I have said the other day.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware that Jack would argue you into staying?
Mr. CRAFARD. I thought he probably would; if I called him or anything
he would probably do his best to get me to stay, and I had made up my
mind to leave and I didn’t want to have to argue with him.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, that wouldn’t have prevented your writing a note.
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or of calling Armstrong.
Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t even think about it a bit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think at all about calling anybody?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This wasn’t even a matter that you pondered as to whether
you should or should not call?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; nothing I had thought of. I never had any idea. I
didn’t feel that there was any real reason for me to call anyone.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you told me that you felt grateful to Jack for what
he had done for you.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that the motivation for your leaving was not any anger.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. On your part against him, but, rather, that you wanted to
see your sister?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t think you owed it to him just to leave him a note?
Mr. CRAFARD. It just never entered my mind.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that there might be a question of how
much cash you had in fact taken?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the salary that was owed to you? Weren’t you
interested in that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t even think about it.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t say goodbye to anybody when you left Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t advise anyone that you were leaving Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; other than the fact that I give the key to the boy at
the parking lot and told him to tell Jack goodbye for me.
Mr. HUBERT. You did send a message of goodbye to Jack through this man?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave word where you would be?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you leave any message to the effect that you had taken
$5 out of the till?
Mr. CRAFARD. I left a draw slip in the till just like I always have.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you in any kind of trouble there with a girl or
something of that sort?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That required you to leave as hastily as you did?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it your custom to move around like that without leaving
any contact points?
Mr. CRAFARD. Quite frequently; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who knew you were working at the Carousel among your family
or friends?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I had wrote my cousin and informed her. I
believe I wrote my mother and informed her.
Mr. HUBERT. This girl Gail knew it?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is my cousin.
Mr. HUBERT. That is your cousin?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; the cousin I was referring to at this time.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you expect to have happen to the mail that you got
at the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t even realize I had left any mail. I had wrote to
the people. I hadn’t been getting any answers. My mother doesn’t write
an awful lot, and I hadn’t got any letters from my cousin for a little
while. My sister hadn’t answered the letter I wrote to her, so I just——
Mr. HUBERT. Weren’t you going out with a girl that you had gotten
fairly close to by that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. She had left Texas at this time. She had left Texas and,
as far as I know, went out to California.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there anybody else that you were interested in there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you say to us now that in your opinion, and by this I
mean your departure from Dallas under the circumstances you did depart
was normal in your life?
Mr. CRAFARD. Somewhat, yes; most of the time I go to leave, I just take
off and go.
Mr. HUBERT. You have done that before?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Many times?
Mr. CRAFARD. I’ve done it two or three times I can recall. I usually
leave from around my people, if I’m around my sister I’ll say something
to her that I’m going to take off and where I plan on going. If I
leave home I usually say something to the folks on where I plan on
going.
Mr. HUBERT. After you found out that Jack had killed Oswald, did it
ever occur to you that the way in which you had left Dallas might seem
odd?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it did occur to me that it might seem very odd.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you communicate that view to anyone?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I said something to my sister to the effect that
I thought it might be kind of suspicious the way I had left Dallas, so
suddenly, without saying anything to anybody.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that to your cousin, too?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know for sure if I said anything to Gail about
that or not.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you told us that you spoke to your cousin, I am
talking about Roberts now, about the fact that you had left Dallas on
Saturday evening and the manner in which you left.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall saying anything to him about the fact that
I thought it might be suspicious.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I am not suggesting that. But what I want to ask you
is whether he thought that the way in which you left might throw some
suspicion.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall him saying anything about it, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that perhaps one easy way to clarify
your position would be to contact the FBI or some police agency and
tell them where you were?
Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t think about that. I figured that if they were
looking for me, if I had heard anything about the fact that they were
looking for me I figured I’d go to the nearest police station and tell
them who I was and that they was looking for me. But that is the only
thing I thought about on that.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t you rather know that they were looking for you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I wasn’t positive that they were. I thought they might be;
yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You had a pretty good idea that they might be?
Mr. CRAFARD. Like I say, I thought they might be looking for me but I
wasn’t positive.
Mr. HUBERT. Wouldn’t you want to find out positive evidence they were
looking for you?
Mr. CRAFARD. If there had been any definite evidence they were looking
for me, I would have went into the nearest police station and told them
who I was.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by definite evidence?
Mr. CRAFARD. The fact I knew for sure they were. I said I just thought
that they might be.
Mr. HUBERT. You just told us that you thought that they might be?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right; I said that I thought they might be.
Mr. HUBERT. That wasn’t enough to cause you to——
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; it isn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you contemplating, as a matter of fact, going to some
police agency prior to the time the FBI came to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe that I was.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you expect to get this positive evidence that they
were looking for you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I just figured if it was possible they might put something
in the paper or maybe something over the radio or something and if I
heard that they was looking for a young fellow that had worked for Ruby
by the name of Larry or anything like that, they was looking for this
young fellow that had worked for Ruby or anything, that I would have
went in and told them who I was.
Mr. HUBERT. I understood you said there was no radio or newspaper at
your sister’s house.
Mr. CRAFARD. No; but I was at other people’s places that had radios.
Mr. HUBERT. You expected to get the information that way?
Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t stay with my sister all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. So that you were making an effort to find out if they were
looking for you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was where I would have found out if it was so, yes, on
several occasions.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you went to listen to radio programs or TV
programs with an effort to find out, among other things, whether they
were looking for you?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. So that you might communicate with them and tell them where
you were?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. I figured one thing. I hadn’t done anything
wrong. I had no reason to hide from anything because I hadn’t done
anything wrong, so if there had been any indication whatsoever that
they was looking for me I would have walked into the nearest police
station and turned myself in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel that anybody else had done anything wrong?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I knew from what I had heard that Ruby had killed,
shot Oswald, I knew it was wrong. Like I say, I mean I had no idea that
anybody else connected with him had done anything.
Mr. HUBERT. What made you think in the first place that there might be
some suspicion cast upon you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the way I left, after I found out that Ruby shot
Oswald, the way I left, I thought just suddenly like that, didn’t leave
any word to anybody where I was going or anything.
Mr. HUBERT. How would that connect you with the killing of Oswald?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had been working for Ruby. He had shot Oswald. It could
be kind of insinuating circumstances why I left and everything like
that.
Mr. HUBERT. But you had left before Oswald was shot?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I had left before Oswald was shot.
Mr. HUBERT. So that really your concern was not that they would connect
you with the killing of Oswald?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. But that——
Mr. CRAFARD. They might think that I had done something wrong, myself.
Mr. HUBERT. With reference to what?
Mr. CRAFARD. To anything. I mean breaking the law in any way.
Mr. HUBERT. With reference to the shooting of the President, too?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that?
Mr. HUBERT. With reference to shooting of the President?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, it could be that they might have thought I was
involved in that in some way or something like that, and I just figured
if they thought, you know, the way I had left if they had any idea at
all that would further their idea, I mean if they had any idea that any
of Ruby’s employees were involved in it, that would further the idea
that I had been involved in this, in it.
Mr. HUBERT. You actually thought about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I felt——
Mr. HUBERT. That was the thing that gave you concern and that is what
you talked to your sister about?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it kind of bothered me a little bit.
Mr. HUBERT. Couldn’t you have ended the bother by going to the nearest
police force?
Mr. CRAFARD. I probably could have. I never even thought about going in
like that, just walking in and talking to them, asking them about it or
anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you fear when you left Dallas that things might be
happening which would get you in trouble?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it never entered my mind. I figured that that would be
the end of things when they had caught Oswald, I kind of figured that
would be the end of it and he would come to trial.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you fear that things might be happening which would
get Jack or other people you knew in trouble?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it point blank to you, Larry. Did you think that
possibly Ruby or someone among his friends might have had something to
do with this and the best thing for you to do as an innocent person was
to get out of there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I didn’t, because if I had had the slightest idea
that him or anybody he knew had anything to do with it, the first thing
I would have done would have been to walk right straight down to the
police station.
Mr. HUBERT. Then when you found out that he had killed Oswald,
didn’t it occur to you that he might be killing Oswald to remove the
President’s murderer?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe it really did occur to me at that time; no.
Mr. HUBERT. You see the point now, don’t you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I understand what you are trying to say. But later we
discussed the fact that Oswald and Ruby might have been connected, as I
believe everybody else has.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think there is anything, can you think of anything
as a result of what you saw down there in Dallas that would indicate
that Jack shot Oswald out of some kind of fear?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t really think of anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Out of some motive of self-preservation other than, or not
necessarily connected with the shooting of the President, but that he
would have feared Oswald in any kind of a way?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t think of anything that would prove that, that
would give me any reason to believe that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some idea on the basis of your experience with
Jack and so forth as to why he shot Oswald?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I haven’t, other than the fact that I believed ever
since it happened that Jack was out of his mind. I believe right today
that the man should be in a mental institution.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that simply because you can’t conceive of anybody doing
what he did, or from some other facts?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t conceive of a man that is in his right mind
walking up to a man, just walking up to a man, putting a gun in his
belly and pulling the trigger.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In a police station?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, I can’t conceive of it, of any man that is
in his right mind doing so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But, other than that, is there any indication that you had
that Jack wasn’t in his right mind?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you saw him for a period of about maybe 18 hours
after the President was shot. In that period that you saw him after the
President was shot, is there anything that indicated to you that he
wasn’t in his right mind in the way that, you know, his behavior was
markedly different?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. From the way Jack Ruby usually acted?
Mr. CRAFARD. One thing he was kind of, when he would speak it was kind
of a choppy way of speaking. He would say two or three words, wait and
then say two or three more, which wasn’t usual for Jack. He might bust
off in the middle of a sentence and then pause for a couple of seconds
before he completed the sentence.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this what you were referring to when you talked about
Jack being nervous?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; very much that way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it the kind of nervousness that a man might have if he
were afraid himself?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir; that is possible, a man that was afraid for
himself would be nervous like this; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You observed those conditions prior to the time you left?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. This nervous condition?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; on the night when we went out and took those pictures
he was pretty well that way, he would talk in a burst and he would stop
and then talk in a burst again.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Larry, isn’t it a fact that the reason why you left
was because you didn’t want to have any part of what you saw going on
then?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t understand what you mean by that.
Mr. HUBERT. You saw Jack being nervous. You saw him taking all these
pictures. You saw his great concern about the death of the President.
Didn’t it occur to you, and isn’t it a fact that the reason you had
left was because you figured that you didn’t want to have any part of
anything that was going on, although you didn’t know what was going on?
Isn’t that a fact?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I cannot say that it is, because I had no idea there
was anything going on, period.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about Jack that indicated to you a
peculiar concern about the death of the President, that the death of
the President itself was some sort of a concern, a great concern to him
more than it seemed to be to you or to Andy or anybody else?
Mr. CRAFARD. It seemed to me more like it was more of a personal effect
on him than it did on anybody else that I talked to very much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean by that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t really explain it. To me, I was shocked and
everything, but it wasn’t like it had been a member, more or less, say,
a member of my own family. With him, it hit him more like it had been a
member of his own family, it seemed to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There was something he said in that connection?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think he said something, but I don’t recall what he said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: Were you present when Jack learned
that Officer Tippit had been shot?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. I’m not sure. I think Jack was at the club
or come to the club just shortly afterward.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Jack’s talking about Officer Tippit?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I think he said he knew him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk a lot about the death of the President?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe any more than anybody else did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Officer Tippit? Did he talk about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t recall as he said much about it other than the
fact that he said he knew him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated yesterday that you felt Jack’s concern
over the death of the President was related to his concern for the
convention business in Dallas. You remarked about his saying this is
going to ruin the convention business.
Mr. CRAFARD. Something to that effect. That was one of the first things
he said, but that was the only time he referred to it that I can recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As you look at his activities, do you think that his
concern or what had happened down in Dallas, meaning the death of the
President and perhaps even the death of Officer Tippit, that Jack’s
concern might have been more related to his fear about what would be
happening to his business rather than any sympathy and grief over the
man himself?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t say that he did. I mean it seems to me like if
a man was really concerned about his business he wouldn’t have closed
Friday night like he did. It seems to me like something like that—you
know what I mean?
Mr. GRIFFIN. But, again, that is an impression you are drawing from
some sort of outside event?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am asking you to look at just what Jack was talking
about and the things that he seemed to be concerned with and occupied
with after the death of the President.
Were they things, was his conversation mostly about the President, or
was it mostly about the things that he had to do in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was mostly about the President, as near as I
can recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you talk with him at the Carousel about the
President?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, while he was there the first time we was talking about
it. I’m trying to recall there was something said there when he said
something about he was going to be closed, that we was going to be
closed that night. He seemed to think if we closed and the other clubs
stayed open it might help a little bit, help the club a little bit, or
something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that in Jack’s mind closing was an aid to his business?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Larry, when you decided to go, to leave Dallas, I take it
that you packed up all your belongings because you didn’t expect to
come back.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you told us you had two little cases?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you search around to see that you had done all that
needed to be done?
Mr. CRAFARD. I knew I had everything that I wanted to take with me. I
left a couple old shirts and a pair of old pants, I believe, that I
left there.
Mr. HUBERT. And you left the book?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What about that letter that you had written to Gale?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t even recall a letter that I had wrote to her that
I had left there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know that there was a letter there with your aunt’s
address on it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had received a letter, but I believe I had threw the
envelope into the waste basket or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. How long before you left had you received that letter?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think it had been probably about a week, I’m not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it stay in the wastebasket all that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think I had it lay on my desk, on the table there, for a
couple days, 3 or 4 days, or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. And then threw it in the wastepaper basket?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; the wastebasket wouldn’t have gotten empty until I
emptied it, and I wouldn’t have emptied it until it was full.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone else know about your aunt, her address in
Harrison?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Jack and Andy both knew that I had received a
letter from my cousin.
Mr. HUBERT. Your aunt and cousin? Well, it is Gail?
Mr. CRAFARD. Gail, Miss Eaton.
Mr. HUBERT. How did they know that? How do you remember that they knew
that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the fact, the reason I remember it, there was some
mail in on Jack’s desk for one of the guys and he told me to bring it
out by the cash register on the front desk and give it to them when I
went in, and when I went and got it there was this letter addressed to
me. I said something to Jack because he hadn’t give it to me and he
said he didn’t know that was my name, and Andy was there when I said
something.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any reason to believe that he or Andy made a
record of your aunt’s address?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. When you left, then, so far as you knew, no one was aware
of your aunt’s address or of Gail Eaton’s address?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. You had forgotten that the envelope was in the wastepaper
basket?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I had said something to one of the waitresses about
my cousin in Michigan, about where she had lived in Michigan, that she
lived in Harrison.
Mr. HUBERT. Which one of the waitresses did you say that to?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was two of them there at the time. I think
it was Bonnie and Little Marg, Marjory.
Mr. HUBERT. You had told them that you had a cousin called Gail?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that she lived in Harrison?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How close a cousin was that to you, a first cousin?
Mr. CRAFARD. A first cousin.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any sort of affection between you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; there was.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you told that to the girls?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I said something to them about the fact.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Gail when you stopped with your aunt?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, she knew you worked for Ruby at a Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When you got to see her, the news was out that Ruby had
killed Oswald?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to her about your connection with Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe we discussed it; yes. I know we talked about it.
I told her about what I had done for Jack, what kind of work I had done
with him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell her when you left?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell her or them—by them I mean your aunt and
uncle—the circumstances under which you had left?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know for sure if I did or not, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You must have told them that you left prior to Oswald’s
being shot.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I told them that I had left Saturday, about noon
Saturday.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they seem to express any concern about the matter?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you come to form in your own mind some concern about
the matter?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not other than the fact that I figured that I did say if I
heard anything in the news about looking for an employee of Ruby’s that
had left, I would go to the law officers and let them know who I was
and that I had been working for Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. But, as I understand it, then, the only one that really
discussed with you the position or the suspicion that you might be
under was your sister, and that neither your aunt nor your uncle nor
your cousin, Gail, nor your other cousin, Cliff Roberts, and his wife,
expressed any concern or discussed the matter with you at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall where there was anything said about
that I might be suspected of anything.
Mr. HUBERT. The only one you really talked to about that was your
sister?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You got to see her, I think, the night before the FBI came,
didn’t you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So that you really hadn’t had an opportunity to listen to
any radios or newspapers or to see whether anyone was looking for one
of Jack’s employees who had left suddenly?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not too much; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you had any?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just in the cars, when I was riding in the cars if they
had the radio on and the news was on I could hear whatever come over
the news that way.
Mr. HUBERT. That concern, then, that resolution of yours that if you
heard about that you would turn yourself in to the police was formed
much earlier than when you got to see your sister?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It was formed when?
Mr. CRAFARD. Shortly after I heard, found out that Ruby had shot
Oswald. I decided the fact if I heard anything in the news about
that—that they was hunting for one of Ruby’s employees—I would have
gone to the nearest law officers and told them that I had been an
employee of Ruby’s.
Mr. HUBERT. I guess we had better break for lunch.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
(Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)
TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD RESUMED
(The proceeding reconvened at 2:30 p.m.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me repeat the statement we have been making at the
beginning of every one of these sessions, that this is a continuation
of the deposition which was begun on Wednesday morning with Mr. Crafard
and, of course, you understand, Larry, that the oath which you took at
the beginning is still in effect for this deposition.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, before we proceed with the examination of further
documents, I might mention for the record that Mr. Crafard and I had
lunch this afternoon at Hogates Restaurant and we discussed informally
some of his experiences in Dallas and his impressions of the events
that have transpired since he first came to Dallas and since he left
Dallas, and I might—I am going to raise a few of the topics, and I hope
I cover them all. If I have left any of them out, I wish, Larry, that
you would clarify the record on it.
I ask you, first of all, if we had a conversation about the homosexual
relationship that you had mentioned before of Jack Ruby and George
Senator?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did I ask you whether you felt that Jack and George
were involved in a homosexual relationship between themselves?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your view of their relationship?
Mr. CRAFARD. My personal opinion is the fact that there was no
relationship between the two due to the fact, mostly because of the
fact that they did not show the general affection towards each other
that two men in this type of relationship would tend to show.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions you would like to ask on that
topic, Mr. Hubert?
Mr. HUBERT. Yesterday, you gave us the opinion that you thought both
Ruby and Senator were possibly homosexuals.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. But your point now is that they might be, but that you
didn’t perceive anything that would indicate that they practiced
homosexuality between themselves?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. There was, to my opinion, they were
both—appeared to me to have a homosexual tendency of sorts, but showed
no—but it showed no signs that there was a relationship between the two
of them in this way.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we also discussed whether or not you believed that
Jack Ruby was capable of engaging in activities which he would keep
secret from other people.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us now what your view is about his ability,
whether he is the kind of person that could have engaged in that
activity?
Mr. CRAFARD. From what I knew of his background and what I know of him,
I would say definitely that he is the type of person that could engage
in an activity of any type without anyone else having any knowledge of
it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you want to ask any questions on that?
Mr. HUBERT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We also discussed at lunch whether or not there—you have
any recollection of any connection between Ruby and Oswald, and you
mentioned to me a statement that you heard made at one time.
Would you tell us what that was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was the one I made just as we got out of
the car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.
Mr. CRAFARD. If I recall the words, I said, I told you that I believe
that before I left Dallas I had heard someone state that Oswald had
been in the Carousel Club on at least one previous occasion, that I
wasn’t positive who had made the statement, that I believed that it was
made before I left Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you indicate to me you had some idea?
Mr. CRAFARD. I thought it had been Andrew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. By that, you mean Andy Armstrong?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You say before you left Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean, before you left Dallas the last time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Before I left Dallas after the assassination.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean before you left Dallas on November 23?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. It seems to me that something had been said about
Oswald being in the club, and I figured that probably it had been
Andrew who said this because I had talked to him—been with him—more
than I had been with anybody else on that day.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen Andrew since?
Mr. CRAFARD. Only at the Ruby trial in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention it to him, then?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I hadn’t even thought about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk to you about it then?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, this statement must have been made to you
between 12:30 on the 22d and about really 5 or 6 o’clock in the
afternoon of the 23d.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see Andy after that, did you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I only saw Andy—I never saw Andy after the 22d, when
President Kennedy was assassinated.
Mr. HUBERT. That is right. Andy woke you up, you all looked at TV, and
then Jack came in and they all went off and you went to bed.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you got up the next morning and talked to Ruby.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It wasn’t Ruby who said that, was it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. It wasn’t George Senator who said it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody else?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to anybody else other than that girl on the
phone?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. She didn’t mention it to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Who else could it be but Andy Armstrong?
Mr. CRAFARD. I said I believe I heard this statement had been made
before I left Dallas, I am not positive that it was made before I left
Dallas, I might have heard the statement afterwards, after I left
Dallas or after I went back, but I believe I heard the statement before
I left Dallas on the 23d.
Mr. HUBERT. If you did hear it before you left Dallas, it had to be
Armstrong; isn’t that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. There is no question about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Because you didn’t speak to anybody else that you could
have gotten it from?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you think it is possible that you read it in the paper?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. I didn’t read the papers on it too
much. I had a couple of the papers——
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you got it over the radio or TV or any other
news media?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Your thought is that you got the statement that Ruby—that
Oswald had been in the Carousel Club from a person?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, if it was after you left Dallas, can you help us as to
what person that might have been?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I cannot.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been any of your relatives?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been anybody you worked with?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so. If it had been after I left Dallas
it would have been somebody who picked me up when I was hitchhiking.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated to me, Larry, I think in the car, that
Sunday you watched television someplace, that you may have seen this on
television Sunday.
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t see television Sunday, I was on the road all
the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t stop in any restaurants or bars and watch
television along the way?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I watched television the day of the assassination and
saw him on the morning after.
Mr. HUBERT. On Monday?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the morning after the assassination, Saturday.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On Saturday between the time that you talked with Ruby,
when you called him at his home——
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the time that you left Dallas, did you see anybody
other than the man at the garage with whom you left the key?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not to talk to anybody; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you rode out of Dallas with that man whom
you had met at the State Fair, did you talk with him about the
assassination?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe we discussed it very much. He was telling
me about his place out on the lake more than anything else, so far as I
recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he know you had worked for Jack Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was something said about the fact that I
worked for Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this man know Jack Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that he would have mentioned having seen
Oswald at the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he ever been in the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. To my knowledge, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on Saturday—or on Friday, rather, the day of the
assassination, did you and Andy and Jack Ruby watch television at the
Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. Some, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember seeing Oswald’s picture on television on
Friday?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember it, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember watching television or listening to the
radio when it was announced that Oswald had been apprehended and was
the suspect?
Mr. CRAFARD. Let’s see. I believe we heard that over the television.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of who was present when you
heard that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, do you have a recollection on Friday of your
activities from the time Andy woke you up until Jack left to go to
Eva Grant’s house? Can you reconstruct for us your activities in some
detail?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just a vague outline is all I can do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Try to reconstruct this as best you can, what you did
first, how long you watched television, and so forth.
Mr. CRAFARD. I had the television on the rest of the day up until
about—it must have been about 7 or 7:30 when I turned the television
off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the television set located?
Mr. CRAFARD. In Jack’s office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How big an office did he have?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, about 10 by 10 or 10 by 12.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have chairs in there?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had a couch, a desk, and a chair in front of his desk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you spend a good bit of the day in that office
watching television?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. After you got up, when did you first go into
that office and start to watch television?
Mr. CRAFARD. Almost immediately.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you stay in there?
Mr. CRAFARD. We turned the television on and there was nothing on the
television just right at that time, on the channel we had it on. We
switched channels, while the set was warming up we went out front and
listened to Andy’s radio until the television warmed up, and then we
watched television.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack Ruby wasn’t there at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you stood in front of the television?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, we stood and watched the television.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it possible to sit in Jack’s office and watch
television?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stand there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just a couple of minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you sit, and where was the television set?
Mr. CRAFARD. We sat on the couch and the set was in the corner behind
the door. There was a filing cabinet between it and the wall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And sitting on the couch you could watch the television
set?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have to close the door in order to watch the
television set?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a telephone in that office?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How far away, how many extensions were there to the
telephone?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was three of them altogether.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There were three extensions or was there a telephone——
Mr. CRAFARD. The telephone and two extensions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Where were the two extensions in relation to
the telephone in Jack’s office?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was one by the bar and one by the door.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How far away would that be from Jack’s office, each of
those?
Mr. CRAFARD. The first one, the one by the door would probably be 20,
maybe 20, 25 feet from the office. The other one would be maybe about
10 feet further, between 30 and 35 feet, I would say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You and Andy placed yourselves in front of that television
set?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you recall happening, what was the first thing,
do you have any recollection of what you saw on television, how things
transpired on television?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. I believe they were at the hospital.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Pardon?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they were at the hospital when we turned the
television on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You recall seeing some scenes at Parkland Hospital?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I can recall seeing some scenes but I am not sure
whether it was as soon as we turned the television on or afterwards
during that day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you recall seeing on television before Jack Ruby
came into the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t really recall what we saw on television.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were, between the time you turned that
television set on and sat down and watched it and Jack came in, did
you leave the office, did you do other duties in the club, or just
watch TV?
Mr. CRAFARD. We just watched television.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When Jack came in, were you people seated in
his office?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When Jack arrived, did you go out into the outer part of
the club to talk with Jack, or did you remain in the office?
Mr. CRAFARD. We went out by the front door.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. More room for all of us to sit down who was in the office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you watch television from the front door?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you keep abreast of the news while you were out there
by the front door?
Mr. CRAFARD. Andy had his transistor radio on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say it was between the time that you
and Andy sat there and watched television before Jack came in?
Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn’t really say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a clock in Jack’s office?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall ever looking at that clock while you were
watching television?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the clock wasn’t—It was one you had to wind, and it
wasn’t wound half the time. We didn’t pay any attention to it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ordinarily wear a watch?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t, there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the period before Jack Ruby came in, did you get a meal
of any sort, any food?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you and Andy discuss the events on television as you
sat and watched it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I imagine we did. I don’t recall saying anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did anybody come into the club before Jack arrived?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any of the female employees of the club
arriving at the club on the day, on the 22d?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you think specifically about Tammi True, do you
recall if she came?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you say you don’t recall, that is not the same
as saying that she didn’t come in?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you would not make the statement, or would
you, that she didn’t come in?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would not make that statement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about as to any of the other girls—Joy Dale, for
example?
Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn’t make the statement of the fact that none of
them came into the club. I would say it was possible that any of them
came into the club, but I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if any of them had stayed for any length of time, 5,
10 minutes, or more, do you think you would have remembered it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you don’t recall anybody coming in and staying as long
as 10 minutes?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When Jack came in and you people sat out at the
front of the club, how far were you seated from the telephones?
Mr. CRAFARD. We was right beside the telephone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the one near the door?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You would have been, then, about 10 feet away from the one
at the bar?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, as you sat there with Jack, did you all sort of keep
your ears glued to the radio, or was there a general conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. We was talking. We had the radio up loud enough so we
could hear, but we was talking.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a continuous conversation, or were there long
pauses in the conversation?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall. I don’t remember. We might have stopped,
we might just sat there 10 or 15 minutes at a time; I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How long did Jack stay there with you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember. It seems to me he was there probably a
couple of hours.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You think Jack was there a couple of hours with you in the
club?
Mr. CRAFARD. He might have been; yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, while Jack was there, did you ever go back into his
office and watch television?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe we did; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of how long you remained with
Jack in his office watching television?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or how long it was after he came in that you went into his
office to watch television?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. It seems to me like it wasn’t very long after he came
before we went back into the office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of talking with Jack about
the dog that you were going to send to California?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not on that day, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you had talked about that, would you remember it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I would have, I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Certainly the knowledge that the suspected killer of the
President of the United States had been in the Carousel where you
worked would have come to you as a pretty heavy shock; isn’t that a
fair statement?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I suggest to you, then, that you can remember just when
that shock hit you.
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact, Larry, that you can tell us whether it
came from Armstrong definitely or that you just picked it up on one
of these rides later on because, as I say, it had to hit you and you
admitted it was a shock.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether you were alone with the person who
told it to you, or was anybody else present?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that, either, sir. Most of that day is
very vague in my mind.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your best guess—that Andy Armstrong told you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, if it had come from Andy Armstrong, it would
have made more of an impression on you than if it had come from some
person who had heard it as a rumor or over the radio, wouldn’t it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, putting your mind to it in that way, can’t you help us
a bit more as to who actually told you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I can’t. I have thought about it. I can’t recall
exactly who it was or exactly where it was I heard it. I believe it was
before I left Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. And if it was before you left Dallas, you already told us
it had to be Armstrong?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I come to, in effect, the question I asked you this
morning, Larry. I don’t want you to feel bound by what you said at
another time unless it was the truth.
Mr. CRAFARD. I realize that.
Mr. HUBERT. I suggest to you that the real motivation for leaving
Dallas was that you had found out that Oswald had been in the club, and
that the matter was getting a little too thick for you and you wanted
out of it.
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That is not true?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; that is not true.
Mr. HUBERT. You say that is not true even if it is possible that
Armstrong told you that Oswald had been in the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. If that is the case it was a subconscious
thought. It wasn’t conscious to where I would remember it. It would
have been a subconscious thought that it was the case.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t understand you when you say it was a subconscious
thought.
Mr. CRAFARD. Just that. It wouldn’t have been something that I thought
about for any period of time. It would have been something that I
had heard it and it just, I didn’t even think about it, and then
subconsciously that could have something to do with my leaving, but on
a conscious level I will say no.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you recall discussing it with this person who told
you, in any way, so that you ascertained from the person how they knew?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Had it been Armstrong wouldn’t you have asked him, “Well,
how do you know that, Andy? When did you see him? Where did you see
him? Who was he with?” You would have asked those questions, wouldn’t
you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would have asked him how he knew for sure.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall asking the person who told you that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, if you had heard that from some of the people
that you had been riding with it would have had to be after Ruby had
shot Oswald, wouldn’t it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it seems so. Otherwise, I wouldn’t have known about
Ruby being involved with him.
Mr. HUBERT. That is correct. But you didn’t find out about Ruby being
involved until Monday morning.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, it had to be after that so far as you are
concerned?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right, if I wasn’t in Dallas. I believe that I
heard the statement before I left Dallas on the 23d.
Mr. HUBERT. That being the case, unless you want to tell us some other
things, it had to be Armstrong.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right. That is all I can—I can’t say for sure who
it was, and I can’t even say for sure that I heard the statement before
I left Dallas. But I believe that it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when it was that you first began to think
about this statement?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with the people in Michigan, your relatives
in Michigan about it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember, sir. I might have, with my sister, but I
don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You told me, I believe, in the automobile that you had not
been aware until I mentioned it to you in the car that Bill DeMar had
made the statement that he saw Oswald in the club.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think, if someone had told you, one of your
relatives or somebody like that had told you, one of Ruby’s performers
or somebody who worked for Ruby had said that he saw Oswald there, do
you think you would have remembered that kind of information being
conveyed to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. I might have remembered something about the fact that one
of them had said, that one of his employees had said, that Oswald had
been there; but I wouldn’t necessarily remember who it was who had said
it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if somebody said to you one of Ruby’s entertainers
claims he saw Oswald in the club, what would your reaction have been?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would have been that——
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t know which entertainer it was or employee who
said that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn’t really know whether it was true or not. I
probably would state the fact that I had never saw him there personally
that I knew of.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me get through with this and see if this won’t help you
out.
If you had heard this statement that Oswald had been in the Carousel,
before you knew that Ruby had shot him, that would have had one
reaction on you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, that the man happened to be in the club.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. If you had heard it after you knew Ruby had shot Oswald,
I suggest to you that that would have been an entirely different
reaction, because then it ties in Ruby and the club. Now doesn’t
that assist you by determining what your reaction was when you heard
it, whether it was the first type of reaction or the second type of
reaction, or do you agree with me that your reaction would have been
different depending upon when you heard it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it would have been; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you accept my version that there would be two different
types along the lines I have said?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe there would have been.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your reaction, the first or the second?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t really remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, when you talked with the FBI on Thanksgiving Day——
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe the FBI asked you did you know any connection
between Ruby and Oswald.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And I believe your answer at that time was that you did
not.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you talked with the FBI were you being as frank and
straight-forward with them as you are with us right now?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; as much as I—to the best of my knowledge I told them
nothing but the truth the same as I am doing with you gentlemen.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention to them that you then knew that someone had
told you that Oswald had been in the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe I did because I—I don’t believe I did. I
didn’t recall it.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you stating to us that you would not have recalled a
statement made to you about Oswald being in the club, which statement
had, by any hypothesis, already been made to you, when they asked you
if you knew of any connection between them?
Mr. CRAFARD. The thing is that if I remembered it, I would have said
so, told, said something to them. If I didn’t say anything to them, I
didn’t remember the fact.
Mr. HUBERT. They asked you if you knew of any connection between them,
didn’t they?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe they did.
Mr. HUBERT. And you then knew that someone had told you he had been in
the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe they did.
Mr. HUBERT. Why didn’t you tell them that you knew that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I evidently didn’t remember it.
Mr. HUBERT. But you have already stated that this thing made a great
impression upon you.
Mr. CRAFARD. I know that, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry——
Mr. HUBERT. Let me follow this through a bit. Didn’t they, in fact, ask
you if you had heard the rumor that Oswald had been in the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know exactly how he asked me about it, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t he ask you, in fact, if you had ever seen him in the
club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he asked me that question; yes. I believe he
might have. My answer would have been——
Mr. HUBERT. Is your statement to us if he asked you that question it
would not have recalled to your memory that someone had told you that
he had been in the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. My statement is that it did not at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you a little bit frightened when the FBI talked with
you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you at all concerned that your flight from Dallas
might make you a suspect of some sort?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe—I don’t remember having any such belief;
no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your feeling towards the FBI when they talked to
you?
Mr. CRAFARD. That they were talking to me because of the fact that I
had worked for Ruby, and they wanted to know what I knew about Ruby’s
movements in hopes that there might be something there that would help
them in their investigation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time when you talked to the FBI you formed a
tentative opinion about the connection between Ruby and Oswald or the
motivation for Jack’s doing what he did?
Mr. CRAFARD. I figured, formed the opinion, myself, as far as I could
figure Jack must have been out of his mind to shoot Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this, would you say this was a strong opinion that you
had?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I will say that it is the sort of opinion I have now,
it has been right along ever since I found out that Ruby had shot
Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But in spite of having that opinion that there was
somewhere along the line you began to think if there could be any
connection between Ruby and Oswald?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have considered the fact that there was a connection;
yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you start to think about this?
Mr. CRAFARD. I imagine I more likely thought about it as soon as I
found out or just shortly after I found out that Ruby had shot Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In trying to think about that connection, have you been
thinking about this rather regularly since then?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I have pretty well forgot just about, even, almost
forgot about it entirely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say it has been that you have been—have
forgotten about any thoughts you might have had that there could be a
connection between Ruby and Oswald?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, I have just almost completely—I haven’t had a
thought about any of this since I appeared at the trial. I was of the
opinion that I was through with it and that I would just as soon forget
about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about when you started to work in the oil field up
there in Michigan for the drilling company? At that time, did you
ponder from time to time whether there was any connection between Ruby
and Oswald?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember doing so; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Keeping these sort of questions in mind, can you tell us
when it was before today that you first remembered that somebody might
have told you that Oswald had been at the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I know definitely that I was told by somebody that Oswald
had been in the club, but I haven’t given that fact too much thought
until we was talking this afternoon during the lunch break there, and
it seemed to me the statement had been made to me before I left Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am asking you when you remembered that statement. Keep
in mind I am distinguishing between the time you actually heard the
statement made and when you first remembered it again.
Mr. CRAFARD. I remembered hearing the statement that Oswald had been in
the club, but I believe there was something in the news about the fact
that he had been in the club two or three times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, when you saw this in the news, did that bring
to you a recollection that someone had also told you this independently?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall it doing so; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is it possible that the recollection that you are
giving us here is simply something that you really didn’t hear anybody
tell you but that you just read in the newspapers?
Mr. CRAFARD. It could be that it is mixed up in my own mind about the
fact that it come out that way, but I wouldn’t know for sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not sure now whether you independently remember
somebody telling you this or whether you just read about it in the
newspaper, and now are confused as to whether your source is from
somebody telling you or from the newspaper?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am almost positive that the statement was made to me by
a person, but it could have been that, like I say it could have been,
after I left Dallas, after it came out that Ruby had shot Oswald,
somebody had heard the statement over the television or read it in the
newspapers themselves, and made the statement to me that they had heard
that he had been in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. I come back to the point I made a little while ago, and I
would like you to consider it again because apparently, as you say,
you have not given this matter a great deal of thought up until now. I
suggest to you again that your reaction when you heard it would have
been quite different if you had heard that rumor about Oswald being in
the club before Ruby shot Oswald than it would have been if you had
heard it after he shot him.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now that reaction of yours is, I think, the key to your
recollection of it, and I suggest that you put your mind to it, Larry,
to see what—to have a recollection, if you can, which is true, of
course, but which will reflect what your reaction was. It has got to be
a different reaction between the two, and I think you have agreed with
me on that.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I do. I believe that—I am not sure whether it was
hearing a statement there when it was made to me or hearing it over the
television or something like that. It was something about the statement
where I said that if he had been I didn’t know about it, and I didn’t
believe Jack did either or something of that effect.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, you are telling us then that at the time you
heard this you made a comment?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. You made a comment to the person who told you that Oswald
had been in the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And at the same time you made that comment that you hadn’t
seen Oswald in the club, you said you didn’t believe that Ruby did it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I didn’t believe that Ruby had saw him in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. That must have been then after Ruby was involved?
Mr. CRAFARD. It must have been; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That would put it after Monday morning, November 25?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So, according to that it couldn’t have been before you left
Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. According to that; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But do you still, in light of that do you still, have the
recollection that you did hear it before you left Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this, Larry: If you had heard this before
you left Dallas, was your feeling nevertheless about Ruby’s insanity
or state of mind so strong at the point when you learned that Ruby
shot Oswald that you would have regarded such a statement as being of
minimal importance or was your initial reaction to Ruby’s having shot
Oswald a sort of quizzical one in which you really hadn’t made up your
mind about the man?
Mr. CRAFARD. My original reaction when I first heard about it was the
fact I couldn’t really believe that he had done it. I just couldn’t
believe, I couldn’t make myself believe, that Jack had done it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that? Was there something about Jack——
Mr. CRAFARD. From what I knew of him he didn’t strike me as the type of
person that would do so. I later made up my mind that, I come to the
opinion, if he had done it, if he had done it, he must have been insane
when he had done it, before I saw anything on television about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it then that your initial reaction that Jack
couldn’t have done this also reflected what you had seen of him on
Friday and Saturday, that he wasn’t in such—didn’t appear to you to be
in such—a state of mind at that time as being one who wanted to go out
and kill.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And who wasn’t so upset about the killing of the President
that he would be motivated by grief or something like that to do such a
thing.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you didn’t see him crying or weeping or emotionally,
terribly emotionally, upset about the President?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I didn’t actually see him crying. His eyes were very
red as if he had been crying the last time I saw him on Friday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or is that Saturday morning?
Mr. CRAFARD. Friday. But then again it struck me so hard that when I
finally realized that it really had happened, it struck me so hard,
that I almost cried myself. I believe there was a lot of people
throughout the country, men and women alike, that cried when they heard
about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But still other than that reaction which you saw on Jack,
there seemed to be nothing about Jack that made him appear any more
grief stricken than any of the rest of you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack the kind of a person who was given to concealing
his emotions?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not so far as I know; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about concealing his hostility toward other people,
did you ever have any indication that he concealed his hostility toward
other people?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. In fact, I would say it would be the other way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any people that he regarded as enemies in
Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. One person that he absolutely didn’t have any liking for
was this one MC from one of the other clubs that come up there once in
a while.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack display his feelings toward that guy?
Mr. CRAFARD. On several occasions, on two or three occasions, he told
the guy he didn’t care to have him around the club, and he just as soon
he didn’t come to the club, and on one occasion he told the man to
leave the club and not to come back again.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But after the man was out of his sight was Jack the kind
of person that he continued to talk about him and complain to the
employees or other people that he was with about somebody who was—about
whom he was annoyed or upset with?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he went on for a few minutes about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you about his feelings toward his
sister Eva?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can remember; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you weren’t aware of any hard feelings between Eva and
Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his feelings toward Abe Weinstein, the man who
ran the Colony Club, did Jack discuss those feelings?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. From what I can remember any time Jack talked to Mr.
Weinstein they got along fairly good.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So am I correct in understanding the way you describe Jack
when he had somebody that he didn’t like or had some hostility toward,
that he would only display this in the presence of that person in
solving some problem with the individual face to face?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me get back to the afternoon of the 22d again. What
time did Andrew Armstrong leave, do you remember?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember the exact time; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, about?
Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe 3:30, 4 o’clock, maybe a little later.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he leave before Jack left?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was after Jack left.
Mr. HUBERT. And you never saw him again really until you saw him in the
courthouse in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Later that night you were with Jack; weren’t you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, everybody was reading, talking about
Oswald.
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure; sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that Ruby had a paper, was reading a
newspaper?
Mr. CRAFARD. He more than likely did, but I don’t remember it, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you are aware that Oswald had shot the President or
that it was believed that he had?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were talking with Ruby about the whole thing,
weren’t you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I imagine.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, if at that time you knew from Armstrong that
Oswald had been in the club, don’t you think you would have mentioned
to Jack, “Say, you know somebody says Oswald was in the club?”
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe I would have mentioned the fact that I had
been told that Oswald had been in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Does that help your memory as to when you got this remark?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it doesn’t. The fact it even makes me more positive
that it was after I left Dallas before I heard about it, because if I
had said something like that to Jack I believe I would have remembered
it.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I’ll tell you what I suggest you do, since the matter
has only been really brought to your attention in the last hour or
so, you know, I suggest that you give it some more thought and try
to reconcile the different possibilities that exist as to when this
information came to you in light of the questions we have asked you and
the possibilities that have been expressed. Would you do that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I have been doing so right along.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s go to something else, and we can come back to that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think it might be well to let it rest for a while. I am
going to hand you, Larry, a Xerox copy of pages out of the notebook,
and I have marked this “Washington, D.C., deposition C. L. Crafard
Exhibit 5203, April 9, 1964,” and I am going to sign my name to it.
Now, I want you to take this Exhibit 5203 and look at those pages and
leaf through it and tell me if you have ever seen that before.
Mr. CRAFARD. There are nine pages in this one. I believe this is a
notebook that Jack carried in his pocket.
(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5203 for
identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you believe that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I recall seeing a notebook with these tear-out tabs on it
that he carried. I am not sure whether this is the one or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this Xerox copy which I have handed you is marked on
the cover page “This is a Robinson Reminder.”
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then there are what you call tear sheets.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What does the first one say?
Mr. CRAFARD. “Jot it down....”
Mr. GRIFFIN. The second tear sheet, tear-out sheet?
Mr. CRAFARD. “Do it....”
Mr. GRIFFIN. The third?
Mr. CRAFARD. “Tear it out....”
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the fourth?
Mr. CRAFARD. “Live notes only.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Those are all the tear-out tabs on what appear to be on
the front cover?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting on that?
Mr. CRAFARD. It is printing, and it is pretty hard to recognize it. I
believe this was Jack’s notebook. It is his handwriting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You believe it is his handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is not the notebook, is it, that you transferred
entries into from your small Penway spiral notebook?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it is not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you believe Jack carried this notebook in his pocket?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let us go through these entries and see if you recognize
any of them.
Mr. CRAFARD. There are a few in there I know the names of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Sandy?
Mr. CRAFARD. That has no meaning to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The second entry is A. F. McKnight.
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sue Pepper?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe she had been a stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was she employed as a stripper while you were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard some talk about her?
Mr. CRAFARD. The name sounds like one of the girls I mentioned as a
stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Caroline Walker?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Strike that. Jack Yanover?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Caroline Walker?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Harold Tannebaum?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Margaret Caldwell?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this Kirk Dial or Kirk Diaz?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say Dial.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of him?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. James Herbert?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jules Herbert?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you read what is written under Jules Herbert?
Mr. CRAFARD. It looks to me like “Sherry care of Lincoln-Houston.” The
name “Sherry,” I believe she was a stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Gigi?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was a stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But not employed there while you were there?
Mr. CRAFARD. But not employed there while I was there. I have heard
mention of the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Wally Rack?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t remember the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Doctor’s Club, do you know what that was?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What does that appear to be, Linda Kubox?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say it looks like K-u-b-o-x to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of that person?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Betty Robbins?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Iwana Birdwell?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Ferris?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Skip Hutcheson?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was some, one young fellow that Jack had
staying there before I went there they referred to as Skip. I don’t
know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Skip Hutcheson you believe is the fellow who sort
of performed the job you did before you came?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you came was Hutcheson there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it had been 2 or 3 months, I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It had been 2 or 3 months that had passed between the
time——
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lynd Chenalt?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about W. O. Chenalt?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this Brenda?
Mr. CRAFARD. It appears to be, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a girl named Brenda there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t remember of any.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And is that Augie?
Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a fellow or a girl named Augie?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; the name means nothing to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about John, is that Rogers?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say so. It don’t mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Shirley Bruce?
Mr. CRAFARD. The name Shirley means nothing to me, but the last name
would have been Little Lynn’s correct name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, her correct name was Bruce?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I thought her last name was Carlin?
Mr. CRAFARD. Her husband’s name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bruce Carlin? Bill Willis?
Mr. CRAFARD. The name sounds familiar, but I can’t put any meaning to
it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he play in the band?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he was one of the band players.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Gino Skaggs?
Mr. CRAFARD. Means nothing to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dottie Walters?
Mr. CRAFARD. That means nothing to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Barbara Brown?
Mr. CRAFARD. That means nothing to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tom Palmer?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had been employed at the club. We received some letters
at the club for him. That is all I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What had been his employment?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he connected with AGVA?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Sandra Moran?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is Kathy Kay.
Mr. CRAFARD. She was one of the strippers while I was there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And Andy?
Mr. CRAFARD. That would be Andrew Armstrong, I believe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Andrea Dalk?
Mr. CRAFARD. The name means nothing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about this Kathy?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember the name at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lorri Womack?
Mr. CRAFARD. The name doesn’t mean anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Margaret?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Here is Judy Oberlin?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. George, Sherman, Tex.?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Betty Kelley?
Mr. CRAFARD. That doesn’t mean anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Eberhardt?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Russ Knight?
Mr. CRAFARD. Russ Knight—that doesn’t mean anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Charles Senator?
Mr. CRAFARD. That doesn’t mean anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The House of Loan?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Joe, Whitehall 2-5424?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Jeannie?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jeanine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jeanine.
Mr. CRAFARD. She worked when I first went to work for Jack, she worked
as a cocktail waitress and then she also was an amateur stripper. She
went to work for Jack as a stripper while I was there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What name did she strip under?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was under the first name of Jeanine. She used
a French last name. She was of French descent.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ralph Paul?
Mr. CRAFARD. Ralph Paul.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about American Airlines, and Tuesday, October 9, No.
985?
Mr. CRAFARD. That would mean nothing to me. George Senator is the next
one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, we have talked about George. Johnny Hayden?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Joy Herrod?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Joe Slayton?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Wally Weston?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was the comedian, I believe. Jack employed him for a
short while.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Campbell-Corrigan, building repair. Did somebody do some
building repairs for him?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that. Corrigan, doesn’t mean anything to
me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Chuck Isaacs?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I can’t read this.
Mr. CRAFARD. Davis Kitter—something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Kitter something or other.
Mr. CRAFARD. It looks like.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t recognize that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Earl Wilson?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tony Turner?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tom Busch?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it doesn’t mean anything to me either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Joe Cook?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Barbara Hickman?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tammi True?
Mr. CRAFARD. Of course, she was one of the strippers who worked for
Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Here is Kay again, but you wouldn’t know what Kay that
would be?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Nicki?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dolores Meridith?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Wiliford Jackson?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Phil Olian?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean a thing to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Wendy Knight?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Wanda?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Janice Anderson?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ann Petta?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. L. H. McIntyre?
Mr. CRAFARD. Nothing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jim Brown?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Carlos Camorgo, Mexico City?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything. The only thing I believe he had
a stripper, pictures of a stripper, from Mexico or South America, that
he had some papers from her indicating she had been there sometime in
the past.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You believe he employed a stripper from Mexico?
Mr. CRAFARD. She was either from Mexico or South America.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long ago had he employed this stripper?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know how long ago. I saw some pictures with her
name on it, Spanish name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Billie?
Mr. CRAFARD. That doesn’t mean anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Toni Rebel?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was something said about a Toni Rebel who
was a stripper or a girl who went by the name of Toni Rebel on the
stage.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bill Towney?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Affiliated Polygraph? That is a lie detector.
Did you ever hear anything from Jack on that?
Mr. CRAFARD. The only thing I can think of there he had a sign there on
the bar that if anything come up of questionable or anything was stolen
in the club or anything all of the employees would be required to take
a polygraph test. I don’t know whether that was Affiliated or what.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he hang this out where the patrons could see it?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was hung on the front of the cash register.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of anybody being asked to take a
polygraph test?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Shirley Nole?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Margo Larve?
Mr. CRAFARD. It doesn’t mean anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Kitty Keel?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mary Martin?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Gail or Carol?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ethel A. Piersol?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Gail Thompson?
Mr. CRAFARD. Nothing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Margie?
Mr. CRAFARD. That would have evidently been Little Marge, the one
waitress.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Peggy Steele?
Mr. CRAFARD. She had been a stripper, she was a stripper who had worked
there at the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. John M. Crawford?
Mr. CRAFARD. It means nothing to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Huntsville State Penitentiary, Huntsville. Did you ever
hear him talk about anybody?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Linda?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Avrum?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sherry?
Mr. CRAFARD. She had been a stripper or was a stripper that had worked
for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Henry Segel?
Mr. CRAFARD. He would—Segel as it is used there wouldn’t mean anything
to me. But the address he has got it, Chicago, Ill.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of a Segel that Jack——
Mr. CRAFARD. Spelled differently than that, Segal Liquor Store is where
he bought champagne and other wines.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Roy Pike?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You never knew Mickey Ryan by the name of Roy Pike?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Lisa Starling?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Stewart’s Photo?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Gail Hall, Monroe, La.
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Luke of the Times Herald?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. H. G. Tiger?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. E. Fletcher?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Darrell Williams?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Vivian?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Statler Barbershop.
Mr. CRAFARD. Just it was a barbershop in the Statler Hilton.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that where Jack got his hair cut?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dovie?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What we have done is gone through all of the pages 1
through 9 of Exhibit 5203, and we have read off every name that
is in there. Now, I am going to hand you what has been marked
for identification as Exhibit 5204, and I have written on this,
“Washington, D.C., deposition C. L. Crafard, Exhibit 5204, April
9, 1964,” and I will sign this in pencil. Will you look at that?
It purports to be a notebook, and on the cover is simply the word
“Addresses.” It consists of 20 pages and, as I say, this is a Xerox
copy of the cover and those pages. Would you look at that and tell me
whether you have ever seen that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe this to be a copy of a notebook that Jack had,
kept, in his drawer in his desk.
(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5204 for
identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the notebook that you transferred items from your
Penway Spiral into?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that the notebook which is represented by Exhibit 5203
you believe Jack kept in his pocket?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And this notebook, which is represented by Exhibit 5204,
you believe he kept in his desk?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, or he might have kept in his pocket. He kept two or
three different books in his pocket at one time, but I believe that one
was in his desk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he also kept on his desk a much larger Penway notebook?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But he didn’t have the larger Penway notebook until——
Mr. CRAFARD. Until after I went to work for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. CRAFARD. There was another one. The Penway notebook was about 6
inches long, and about 4½ inches wide.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let us look at these names in here.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recognize any.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize a single name? Did you know Cecil
Hamlin?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what the Century Distributors, Inc., are?
Mr. CRAFARD. Century Distributors, Inc.?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; what are they?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever know Jack to be interested in any
prizefighters?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I knew of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of a Willie Love?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack talk of Lewis McWillie?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. L. J. McWillie?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet a fellow named Lawrence Meyers?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet any of Jack’s friends from Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when you were at the State fair ever
meeting any other people with Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when the first time was that you met Joyce
McDonald?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was at the fairgrounds. She came out with Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet her out there; did you meet any men out there
with her?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t—it seems like there was a couple of men with them,
but I was never introduced to them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will state for the record that this notebook which we
have consists of 20 pages and those 20 pages include the cover which
is marked “Addresses,” and that is page No. 1, and the remainder of the
pages are numbered consecutively through 20. I might also indicate that
on each page of this exhibit, with the exception of page 1 and page 20,
two pages are photographed open, so that would make a total of almost
40 pages of actual written addresses. I hand you, Larry, what has been
marked as “Exhibit 5205, Washington, D.C., C. L. Crafard, April 9,
1964,” and I have put my signature on there. This is a photograph of
a group of people, and there is an arrow pointing toward one of the
people. First of all, can you tell us if you recognize the place in
which that photograph was taken?
Mr. CRAFARD. It appears to be the Carousel Club.
(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5205 for
identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything about it that looks like the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. You can just see the portion of the runway across here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is in the lower left-hand corner?
Mr. CRAFARD. Lower left-hand corner of the picture, and the Carousel
was the only club in Dallas to have runways, to seat the customers on
runways. These gentlemen are sitting right on the runway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you see anybody in that picture that you recognize?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. I see one of the waitresses back in the
background. I can’t make out which one it is on the upper right-hand
portion, standing holding a tray, but I can’t make out who it is though.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is an arrow directed toward one of the individuals
in that picture. Do you ever recall seeing that individual in the club
before?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. I don’t recall seeing him at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that picture of yourself?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; definitely not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say definitely not?
Mr. CRAFARD. One thing, the clothing. He is wearing a checkered shirt.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. CRAFARD. Any time I was in the club I wore a suit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You always wore a suit?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I sometimes took my dress jacket off and put on a
gold livery jacket on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever dressed in a sweater of any sort there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you wear a tie while you were in the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. This gentleman is wearing what would appear to be a
sport shirt, and I would say he is an older gentleman than I am.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked for purposes of
identification as “Washington, D.C., C. L. Crafard. April 9, 1964,
Exhibit 5206,” and I have signed my name to it. Do you recognize the
place where that photograph was taken?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly on the stage of the Carousel Club looking down the
center runway.
(The document referred to was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5206 for
identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you see anybody in that picture that you know?
Mr. CRAFARD. Excuse me; that is looking down the side runway on the
left side.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize anybody in that picture?
Mr. CRAFARD. The young lady on the stage with her back to us, I
believe, is the stripper known as Tammi True.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Blond hair?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is—how about the man who appears to be dressed in a
tuxedo and standing on the stage; do you recognize him?
Mr. CRAFARD. He looks like the comedian known, that I can only remember
the name as, Johnny. He worked with a couple of puppets.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the man in the checked shirt?
Mr. CRAFARD. Only from the fact that it was his picture in the—his
photo in the previous picture that was designated with an arrow.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that an accurate, true and accurate, picture of what
the inside of the Carousel looked like at the time that you worked
there?
Mr. CRAFARD. From that angle; yes. If you like, I can explain what they
was doing when this picture was taken.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us what that depicts?
Mr. CRAFARD. It depicts the, what they call, raffling, you might say;
they give tickets out at the door, and then they spin a roulette wheel,
and the man with the numbers on the ticket that correspond with the
ticket on the roulette wheel wins the prizes. That is what they were
doing at that time; giving away prizes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do they give away prizes every night?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; weekends mostly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about during the week?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not too often. Sometimes they did. It depends on the size
of the crowd.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did Jack get his prizes?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give away twist boards?
Mr. CRAFARD. He gave away twist boards, Rusty Warren records, two
bottles of champagne, Wilkinson sword-edged blades, and stuffed animals.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give away all of those items every night they had a
raffle or different nights?
Mr. CRAFARD. He would give whoever won their choice. They would have,
give away, three prizes each night, and everyone would have their
choices out of the prizes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as “C. L.
Crafard, April 1964, 5207,” and I have signed my name to it. That is a
photograph. Can you tell me where that picture was taken?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was taken in Mr. Ruby’s office.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is the arrangement of chair and desk and what appears to
be a couch in the foreground the arrangement that existed at the time
that you worked there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. This couch here is part of a sectional that was
turned crosswise of the office, the other portion being against the
wall on the left-hand side of the picture, which is where you cannot
see it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are the people in this photograph looking in the direction
of the TV camera, I mean of the TV set?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say the woman as I am looking at the left of the
picture, Joy Dale, is looking more in the direction than the rest of
them, the TV set in the corner over this way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a TV set as you look from Jack Ruby’s position in
the photograph. It would be off at the far wall in the left-hand corner?
Mr. CRAFARD. To the left of him; yes, it would be to his left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there a door shown behind Jack Ruby there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; that is the door connecting his office to what was my
room.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So, in order to get into your room, you had to walk
through Jack’s office?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I had a door off in the hall to my room, but this was
a connecting door from his office to my room.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is the door that enters Jack’s office?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would be almost immediately behind the girl on the
right-hand side, who is Little Lynn.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that door sort of opened up through the middle of the
wall or at one end of the wall?
Mr. CRAFARD. More or less to the end of the wall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s mark on there, then, Little Lynn on the side that
she is on, and Jack Ruby in the middle; I am marking this on the back.
And Joy Dale. Now, the background of this picture, there appear to be
tacked up on the door a number of papers. Was that customary?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had a lot of different papers tacked, fastened to the
door there, hanging on it. He had a couple of pegs in the door he put
them on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of papers did he keep up there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly old bills and stuff like that that he just stuck up
on kind of a wire peg that he put them on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me show you what I have marked as Washington, D.C.,
C. L. Crafard, April 9, 1964, Exhibit 5208, and I have signed it. Was
that photograph taken at the Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. Do you want me to describe it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; would you?
Mr. CRAFARD. It shows Jack Ruby standing on the stage holding the mike
talking to the audience, and they are clapping him; applauding him, I
should say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when that photograph was taken?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember the date, but this photograph would have
been taken at the same time we had a photographer from a magazine
taking pictures. It would have been taken by him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How often did Jack M.C.; appear on stage?
Mr. CRAFARD. One or two nights. I believe one evening, one or two
evenings we was without an M.C. and Jack done the M.C.-ing. It was a
couple of evenings.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When there was ordinarily an M.C. there, do you ever
recall Jack going up on stage?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. It wasn’t his custom.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Looking at that picture, do you recognize anybody else in
the photograph?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to look at what I have marked in the same
fashion Exhibit 5209, and tell me if you recognize anybody in there?
First of all, let me rephrase the question. Do you recognize where that
was taken?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t. It wasn’t taken in the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recognize anybody in the picture?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I would say this picture was taken in a place where
the theme was more or less western theme than anything else. I remember
I commented to the other gentleman when he showed me a picture, we were
looking at the costume she had on, wasn’t anything I remembered.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked in the same fashion
Exhibit 5210. Do you recognize where that photograph was taken?
Mr. CRAFARD. This photograph was taken in the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize who any people in those photographs are?
Mr. CRAFARD. A stripper. I don’t remember her name right now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the left-hand side, is that the same girl?
Mr. CRAFARD. The same girl in another one of the photographs. It looks
like Tammi True.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There are dogs in that—dachshund dogs in that photograph?
Mr. CRAFARD. These dogs belong to Jack Ruby. We placed them on the
stage as more or less the photographer was here, as more or less a
photography stunt more than anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they regularly used in acts?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; only on this one occasion they were used more or less
like, say, for a photographic stunt.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever been up on the stage while the lights were
on, while an act was in progress?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not while an act was in progress. Usually, during the
roulette wheel, I would put the prizes out and I’d take them off when
it was over.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would the stage be lighted in the same way for the drawing
of prizes as it would be when an M.C. was on stage?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would only the stage be lit or would the patrons, the
customer area, also be?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just the stage.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to look out into the audience
from the stage when the roulette wheel, when the drawing, was in
progress?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you see faces in the audience?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was pretty hard to make out any faces unless they were
sitting right next, and then you wouldn’t recognize them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Unless they were sitting right next to the runway of the
stage?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And there were——
Mr. CRAFARD. Excuse me a minute, please.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. CRAFARD. You can just see a gentleman standing on the right-hand
corner of some of these photographs. This gentleman was the M.C. at
that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who he was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was Johnny. Yes; there is the box, one of his
boxes. It was Johnny, but I am not sure what his last name was. There
is a woman in one of these pictures; I believe I can just see myself,
but it is not clear enough to make out. I believe it is me standing
there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This picture that you are looking at, this large
photograph, is actually a series of small photographs?
Mr. CRAFARD. It is actually a series of small photographs. It would be
the first and second photograph in the middle series of photographs
where you can just vaguely see me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I want to show you what I have marked in the same
fashion Exhibit 5211. Do you recognize any of the people in that
photograph, that set of photographs?
Mr. CRAFARD. There is Johnny on the stage, the first one in the first
series. I can see Johnny on the stage again.
The next one shows Johnny.
The next one shows Johnny and, I believe it is Tammi True.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is the heavy man in the short-sleeved shirt that is
shown?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember his name. He was to the club on several
different occasions. He always sat in the same place because he was
such a heavy man nobody could get around him, such a big one.
In the middle series of photographs shows Tammi True in each of them.
And on the outside series of photographs is Little Lynn in Jack’s
office holding some stuffed animals.
The bottom picture on the right-hand series shows Johnny with one of
his puppets.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this about the fat man in the short
sleeves. Was he a friend of Jack’s?
Mr. CRAFARD. They knew each other. They seemed to be friendly, always
talked, Jack would always speak to him when he came in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you associate any name with this man?
Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t remember his name, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was his name in any of the names that we went through in
the notebooks today?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember. I wouldn’t remember his name if I saw it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anybody else who would know him? Would Andy
Armstrong know him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Andy Armstrong would know him; yes. I believe that Andy is
the one that first told me his name and told me to always seat him in
the same place.
There was only one chair in the club that he could sit on and we had to
go get it all the time when he come in and put it in the place for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what I have marked in the same
fashion Exhibit 5212, which is also a series of photographs.
Do you recognize any of the people in those pictures?
Mr. CRAFARD. The stripper is Little Lynn.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In all of the pictures?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the patrons? Do you recognize any of the
patrons?
Mr. CRAFARD. Only myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you?
Mr. CRAFARD. This doesn’t look like me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it is not me at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that you right there? You have indicated to me that
your photograph appears in a number of these pictures.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And let me indicate that you are in the photograph in the
upper right-hand corner, and you are the man in a black suit who is
seated second from the left along the runway.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And in the picture immediately below that you occupy the
same position?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The picture immediately below that which is the third from
the top, on the right-hand side you occupy the same position?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the stripper is Little Lynn?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then moving into the center set of pictures you appear in
the same position third from the bottom?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the same position at the bottom?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is this suit and dress that you show here, is that
the way you were normally dressed at the Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. These pictures were taken as a photographic stunt,
also.
Mr. GRIFFIN. During the day, Larry, if you had occasion to go out of
the Carousel Club, were you also dressed in a suit?
Mr. CRAFARD. During the day, up until about 5 o’clock, I was normally
dressed in a pair of white jeans, a long-sleeved shirt or a pair of
corduroys as I was usually working around the club and I didn’t care to
wear a suit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked in the same
fashion Exhibit 5213.
Now, this picture was taken inside the Carousel Club.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you look at these pictures and tell me looking at the
picture in the upper left-hand corner, who that is?
Mr. CRAFARD. Johnny, the M.C. on stage with his three puppets.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And in the photograph right below that there are two
girls. Who is the blond?
Mr. CRAFARD. Kathy Kay and I believe Tammi True in the dressing room.
The next photograph is the same.
The next photograph is Tammi True on stage. Going to the middle of the
first photograph is Tammi True. The middle series is all Tammi True on
stage.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the patrons in here?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t; except on the top picture on the right-hand
corner shows the heavy set man we have mentioned before in the same
position as before.
On the right-hand column it shows Kathy Kay on the top photo.
The next three photos are all pictures of Johnny with his puppets.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that Johnny, would his name be Johnny Turner?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he the only M.C., the only man who was employed at the
time?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was the only M.C. employed at that time; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the only other employees he had at that particular
time were strippers or entertainers?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; strippers and the waitresses.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So let me understand this. That while you were there,
Billy DeMar was employed there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Wally Weston?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Johnny Turner?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And anyone else?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was all. I can’t remember who the M.C. was
when I first went to work for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it a different one other than the three we have
mentioned?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure. That is what I was trying to remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did these M.C.’s have a regular run of a prescribed number
of weeks that they would play?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; maybe they might come in for 2 or 3 weeks, or they
might be there for 1 week and then they might stay for 3 or 4 months.
It would depend on the contract that they signed with Mr. Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Buddy Heard ever come and appear?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe he was ever there while I was there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what has been marked as Exhibit
5214 and I want to ask you if you recognize any of the patrons in those
photographs.
Mr. CRAFARD. The heavy set gentleman that has been mentioned before is
in the second photograph in the left-hand series. He is in the first
photograph in the middle series. That is all. But other than that, I
don’t recognize any of the other patrons.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you now what has been marked as 5214-A
and all the markings are in the same fashion as the previous ones. Do
you recognize any of the patrons in there?
Mr. CRAFARD. The patron in the second and third photographs on the
right-hand side looks familiar but I can’t place him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am handing you is Exhibit 5215 which is also marked
in the same fashion as the others. Do you recognize any of the patrons
there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I show you Exhibit 5216. You will notice that this appears
to be the interior of a dressing room and there is some sort of a
plaque on the wall in the top two photographs in the center and the
photograph in the lower right-hand corner. Do you recall what that
plaque is?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you state whether that picture was taken at the
Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recognize those as Carousel Club dressing
rooms?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, yes. The dressing rooms have been redecorated since I
worked there, I know that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the dressing rooms look as they appear in that
photograph at any time while you were employed at the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe that is the dressing room of the Carousel.
I don’t remember this stuff along the bottom picture, the left-hand
side of the bottom picture in the left-hand column. The plywood door
that is shown in several pictures, I don’t recognize that as being of
the dressing room at the Carousel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked in the same
fashion as Exhibit 5217. Do you recognize the patron that is shown in
that photograph?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t, but I believe from this picture I can pretty
well state that that other last picture was photographs of the girls’
dressing room, from the location of the table. Instead of a door that
was a window that had been boarded up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I show you Exhibit 5218 which has been marked in the same
fashion. Do you recognize any of the patrons in that photograph?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Exhibit 5219 which has been marked in the same
fashion? Do you recognize any of those patrons?
Mr. CRAFARD. Only that I believe this one has been showed in previous
pictures.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this a duplicate of something we already have?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe it is a duplicate, but I believe this
gentleman in the white shirt has been shown in previous pictures.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about 5220? Do you recognize any of the patrons there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Only this one gentleman here. I can make him out
especially in the bottom picture in the middle column.
Mr. GRIFFIN. With the white shirt on?
Mr. CRAFARD. The gentleman with the short-sleeved white shirt on I can
recognize him from the previous pictures.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t have a recollection of who he is?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t have a recollection of who he is. I don’t think I
ever knew the gentleman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Exhibit 5221, do you recognize any of the patrons in
there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Only the gentleman on the right-hand would be the back
down in the picture towards the right-hand side would be the far side
of the stage the heavy set gentlemen that has been mentioned before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Officer Tippit?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever know a man named Bernard Weissman?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Ruby or anybody indicate that Officer
Tippit was ever in the Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember of hearing any indication.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about that Bernard Weissman? Was he in the Carousel
Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember any indication of that, either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever owned a gun?
Mr. CRAFARD. I had a pistol, but it was in Oregon when I was in Texas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a pistol was that?
Mr. CRAFARD. A .22.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever owned any other sort of a gun?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were in military service, did you have any
training with a rifle?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I had training with the M-1 rifle and with the M-1
carbine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were in Dallas, Tex., did you ever have any
occasion to go out to any rifle ranges?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know whether Jack Ruby ever went to any rifle
ranges?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Your answer is you don’t know?
Mr. CRAFARD. I did not know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were in Dallas, Tex., did you attempt to
purchase an automobile?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you visit any used car lots?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever drive Jack Ruby’s car?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you drive an automobile at any time while you were in
Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever accompany anybody in an automobile to have it
repaired?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I believe when you talked with the FBI, you indicated
that you visited a store with Jack where he was going to get some
electrical or electronic equipment.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon was that after you began to work for Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. I think it was about 3 or 4 weeks after I went to work for
Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you talk about working for Jack, do you mean that to
include the time that you were working at the Dallas, Tex., State Fair?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As working for Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. Only the time, from the time the State fair closed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what kind of electrical equipment Jack was
purchasing, looking for when you went with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Some speakers and—that is the boxes that are used to work
a speaker out of, the amplifier box.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he going to use these items?
Mr. CRAFARD. In the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he had those items there before?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had the items in the Carousel Club, but he was going to
replace them with some better models.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were his existing models defective in any way?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was always something going wrong with one speaker or
the other.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he actually replace these?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not while I was there; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened at the electronics store that you visited?
Mr. CRAFARD. He talked with the gentleman for a few minutes and I
believe he give them a free pass to the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do in connection with buying equipment?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had checked out some equipment they had there, their
prices, the types of equipment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What price range of equipment was he talking about?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was wanting to get a better model amplifier as cheaply
as he could.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this have been an expenditure of over $100?
Mr. CRAFARD. I really don’t know, but I don’t believe so. Could I go
back a little bit to the day. I believe that was about a week after I
went to work for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you testified yesterday I think that the girl whom you
identified in some pictures taken on the street outside the Carousel
with Jack Ruby, you identified this girl as Gloria McDonald.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could her name have been Gloria Fillmore?
Mr. CRAFARD. Her name could have been, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure about the name McDonald?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. In fact if I may be allowed to say so, I am not
positive that this girl is the girl I knew as Gloria. Her name could
have been something entirely different. I believe it was Gloria.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You believe it was Gloria in this picture?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you are not completely positive.
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I never knew her last name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me try to refresh your recollection a little bit.
Going back to Wednesday, November 20, 2 days before the President was
killed, and Thursday, November 21, do you remember on either of those 2
days receiving any telephone calls from Bruce Carlin?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe Bruce called the evening of Wednesday, the 20th
wanting to speak to Little Lynn. I am not positive but I believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now how about on the 21st. Do you remember anything on the
21st?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall anything, no. He might have but I don’t
recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever remember on the 21st a telephone call being
placed to Jack Ruby in the early portion of the evening, and your
answering the phone and talking to the person on the phone?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember it, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Bruce Carlin ever have occasion to call Jack Ruby in
your recollection?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember him ever doing so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet any of Bruce Carlin’s friends?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet a boy named Jerry Bunker?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember it, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Bruce used to call the Carousel regularly?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. There was only one or two occasions when I am sure
that Bruce called the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When are the other occasions?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was the evening of Wednesday the 20th Little
Lynn hadn’t went straight home from the club and he called asking,
wanting to know where she was at.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any idea of the financial condition of Little
Lynn or Bruce Carlin the week before the President died?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Little Lynn ever complain in your presence about not
having enough money?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that when she first went to work for Jack, Jack
either gave her an advance or loaned her some money, one or the other.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I recall yesterday in your talking with Mr. Hubert there
was some problem you felt that you had lost 8 hours in describing what
happened on your trip from Dallas to your destination in Michigan.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the time that has passed since then, have you been able
to find those 8 hours that were lost?
Mr. CRAFARD. Pretty well, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you think happened?
Mr. CRAFARD. I got mixed up on my routes in Oklahoma City and spent
quite a bit of time getting back. There is where I lost the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About what time did you arrive in Oklahoma City?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was about 7 o’clock in the evening of the 23d.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how did you happen to get mixed up on your routes?
Mr. CRAFARD. I got a ride with this gentleman and I believe he said
something about getting me out on my route or something like that, and
I got mixed up on my route.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ride with him in the wrong direction for a while?
Mr. CRAFARD. He took me out, he took me quite a ways more than where I
had to go.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On that basis what time would you say that you arrived in
Chicago?
Mr. CRAFARD. It probably would put me in Chicago sometime Monday, about
10:30 or 11 o’clock in the morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived in Chicago, then you knew that Ruby had
killed Oswald?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what time did you arrive in Lansing, Mich.?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was about 6:30 or 7 o’clock Monday evening.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived in Chicago did you make any effort to
call any of the Rubensteins?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did that occur to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; that arrival in Lansing would have been about 3:30 or
4 o’clock. It would have been a couple hours earlier.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned that the ride that you had got out of Dallas
on the 23d with a man whom you had met at the Dallas State Fair.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do at the Dallas State Fair?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was a photography place on the fairgrounds. He
worked there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a full-time employee at the fairgrounds or was this
a temporary thing?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe this was just temporary for the fair.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of the photography place?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there a number of different photographers at the
fair?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there was two or three different ones at the
fairgrounds. This one was right close to the place I worked was located.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How far would it have been from a tent? Were you in a tent?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How far would it have been from your tent?
Mr. CRAFARD. About 150 or 200 feet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In which direction?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would have been down on the main midway. It would have
been right on a corner of the main midway and the portion of the midway
I was on. We were located on a branch off the main midway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old would you say this man was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say he was probably in at least his middle
forties, more likely in his late forties.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he bald or did he have hair?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t really remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a graying man or what color was his hair?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember that either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if he wore glasses?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what kind of a car he owned?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he had a Chevy. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you describe his physical build, anything
remarkable about it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I could think of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a thin man?
Mr. CRAFARD. He was about medium build for a man his age and height.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you say he had a young boy with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he had a son about I believe 9 or 10 years old.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you catch the son’s name?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his name? Did you learn his first name?
Mr. CRAFARD. I more than likely knew his name but I don’t remember it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do at the photography studio?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know for sure just what he did do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a Dallas studio that had a place there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there some central office of the Dallas State Fair that
would keep records of the people who had charge of tents or booths
there?
Mr. CRAFARD. That would be the fair commission would know anyone that
had any kind of a stand or concession on the midway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And where would this commission have its office when the
season was not in session?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would be on the fairgrounds. I am not sure where though.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is some sort of permanent office there on the
fairgrounds?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; the Dallas Fairgrounds is one of the largest
fairgrounds in Texas. It is open the year around.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is your belief that this man knew you worked for Jack
Ruby as he was taking you out of Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not until after we had got to talking and I told him I had
been working at the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you estimate that you were with that man?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, maybe a half hour or maybe 45 minutes at the most.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And it is your belief that he had a cottage at some sort
of a lake?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What place?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t remember the name of the lake he lived on, that he
had his cottage on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you remember somewhat where he left you off and in
what direction he had to turn?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he went to the left of 77 when he let me off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You left Dallas on route 77?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how far would you say you went on route 77?
Mr. CRAFARD. We were about 20 miles outside the city limits of Dallas
at Carrollton, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He let you off in Carrollton?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just the other side of Carrollton a little ways.
Mr. GRIFFIN. North of Carrollton?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just north. Not very far. It couldn’t have been more than
maybe a mile.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this some sort of main intersection he let you off at?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so, yes; the main entry for the Carrollton
traffic on the north side of town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were at route 77 and the corner of some other road?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was just one of the so-called farm roads of
Texas. They have got a lot of the roads numbered farm road such and
such.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a sign up there that pointed to a lake that this
man had to turn to?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get any idea how large a lake it was? Was it a
resort area?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recall that either, sir. I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you do recall that the man had a cottage or something
of that sort on the lake?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he was going up to work on his cottage when he picked
me up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We talked at lunchtime about a man who called the Carousel
during the week before the President was assassinated.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And would you tell us about these calls?
Mr. CRAFARD. Is that the one where I said he wouldn’t give his name or
anything?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the one I had in mind.
Mr. CRAFARD. This gentleman would call maybe two or three times a day
asking for Jack. He would ask where he could reach Jack. It sounded
like it was pretty important that he reach Jack, and that he would
never leave a number where Jack could call him back at.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever give this man a number?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what time of the day or night this man would
call?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would usually be during the day. I can’t recall any
specific time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this man ever wake you up?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; it was always well after 9 o’clock, I know that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it ever appear to be around lunch hour?
Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been anywhere from 9 o’clock to 6 o’clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he seem to call at regular times when he called?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe his voice in terms of age?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I couldn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this man call on Friday, November 22?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t really remember whether he did or not. I don’t
believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about on the morning of the 23d, Saturday the 23d?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he call the day before the President was assassinated?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he called sometime in the afternoon of the 21st.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to Andy Armstrong about this man?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I said something to Jack about him and I believe
Andy was there when I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you say to Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. That this guy called several times wanting to get a hold
of him, would never leave his name or address or number or anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack say to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack had told me previously not to give his number to
anyone unless I knew who it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is his home number?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, or some other number he left where he could be
reached at. He said not to worry about anybody that didn’t leave a
phone number, they didn’t want to get in touch with him very bad.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate that he knew who this man was who was
calling?
Mr. CRAFARD. I took it for granted he knew who the man was. He never
said definitely that he did know who the man was. I think when I told
him about it he just said forget it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You never met this man, did you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; if I had met the man I would have known his voice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many home telephone numbers did Jack have?
Mr. CRAFARD. He only had one home number that I knew of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have an assistant manager by the name of
Alexander?
Mr. CRAFARD. That would have been Andrew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we can finish a good part of this today if we
could take a break. I want to hand you a copy of your interview with
the FBI and ask you to take time to read that over. It is rather
lengthy. It covers eight pages. Make some notes. Let me put this on
the record. Let me ask you to take your time and read this, and we
will take a recess for as long a period as you feel necessary. Make
notes as you go along of any changes that you think ought to be made,
either because you didn’t tell that to the FBI or because you now upon
reflection think that it is inaccurate, or because after reading this
and reflecting on your other testimony you would adopt this rather that
what you have said before. Let’s figure this will take at least 15
minutes and maybe longer.
TESTIMONY OF CURTIS LaVERNE CRAFARD RESUMED
The testimony of Curtis LaVerne Crafard was taken at 9:50 a.m., on
April 10, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by
Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of
the President’s Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, and Max
Phillips, Secret Service, were present.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state first for the record that this is a
continuation of the deposition that was begun on Wednesday morning,
April 8, with Mr. Crafard, and that the oath and all the formalities
that we went through on that date are still in effect. Yesterday
afternoon as Mr. Crafard and I were returning from lunch, he indicated
to me that he had received some telephone calls at the Carousel Club in
the week before President Kennedy was killed, from a man who would call
two or three, perhaps more times a day but would not leave his name but
simply ask for Jack Ruby, and in connection with that conversation Mr.
Crafard asked me if we had any recordings of Lee Oswald’s voice. Mr.
Crafard indicated that he would like to listen to the recordings with
the possibility that he might recognize the voice of somebody he had
talked to or overheard when he was in Ruby’s employ. We have located a
tape recording of an interview which was conducted with Mr. Oswald in
New Orleans shortly after he was arrested for disturbing the peace in
connection with the Fair Play for Cuba activities. The tape recording
was made by radio station WDSU, New Orleans on August 21, 1963. The
recording involves Lee Harvey Oswald, Carlos Bringuier, Ed Butler, and
Bill Stuckey. The recording is provided to us by the United States
Secret Service. It bears Secret Service No. 236.
I would also like to explain for Mr. Crafard’s benefit as well as
the rest of us that it will be very clear as you listen to this tape
recording which person on the recording is Lee Oswald. In some cases
his name may be used. In other cases the question and answer repartee
is such that it will be difficult not to realize who Oswald is if you
know anything about Oswald’s background. There also may be a certain
amount of distortion in the recording and we are not able to state for
the record at this time exactly how much distortion there is and how
this would compare favorably with what might heard over a telephone. I
would like you to keep all of this in mind in listening to this and try
to give us as accurate a recollection as you can of whether you have
ever heard this voice which will appear to be Oswald’s.
Mr. Hubert, do you have anything you want to add?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, it is just another way of putting what Mr. Griffin
has said, we don’t want you to identify a voice simply because it is
suggested to you by the content of the material. If that would be the
basis of your recollection—of your recognition it would be of no value
to us, you see. On the other hand, if you do recognize the voice we
expect you to tell us.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dr. Goldberg, do you have anything you would like to ask?
Dr. GOLDBERG. No; I have no questions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Phillips, if you would go ahead and commence the
recording we will all listen to it.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Phillips, you are going to be able to tell us after we
finish playing that at what point you began and at what point you ended?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Might I ask the reporter if it is possible for him to take
down the first couple of sentences so we will have for the record——
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think it will be necessary if we can get into the
record its being at such a point in feet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you indicate to use what the footage is?
Mr. PHILLIPS. I have the index at zero right now with the paper index
in the reel. When it is through I will be able to know how much, what
the index reads and I will have a paper index in the other roll and
that space in between is what we have played. I will identify that
section.
Mr. GRIFFIN. May I suggest, though, Mr. Hubert that if there is
any possibility that portions of this tape might be deleted or
retranscribed onto another tape that it would probably be best if we
did have an indication of the opening words that are on here so that it
can be located?
Mr. HUBERT. That is an extra precaution.
(The tape recording commenced with the following):
“What price in dollars of Cuba selling sugar to Russia, Russia sending
to Cuba 80 percent in machinery in Russia and 20 percent in dollars,”
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera——
(This is a Cuban or Spanish speaking voice.)
“Could you straighten out that point, are you or have you been a
Communist?”
“Yes; I am a Marxist.
“What is the difference.
“Well, the difference is primarily the difference between a country
like Ghana, Guiana, Yugoslavia, China, or Russia.”
(End of transcription.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us now, Mr. Crafard, whether after listening
to this recording you recognize any of the voices on the recording?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Phillips, I want the record to show where you began
and where you left off and we have the double check with the opening
sentences of the excerpt and the closing sentences so that we may have
a mechanical check as well, would you state for the record precisely
how this can be identified at a later point in time.
Mr. PHILLIPS. This section of the tape can be identified by paper index
tabs which have been inserted. Secondly, the index numerical index
reads 163 on this stereophonic concord tape recorder. The numerical
index reads 163 which means from the time the tape was played which was
on zero index, the tape distance went 163 inches.
Mr. HUBERT. Those paper tabs are temporary, aren’t they?
Mr. PHILLIPS. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there a possibility of marking the tape in some way
without injuring it?
Mr. PHILLIPS. There would be.
Mr. HUBERT. So that there would be a permanent mark as to where the
paper tabs were?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you do that by making some sort of significant mark
with your initials?
Mr. PHILLIPS. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. We will ask you to do that also.
Mr. PHILLIPS. All right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Larry, did you recognize anyone of the voices in that
excerpt that we played?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You have never heard them at all?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And you are certain that it is not the voice of the man who
called Ruby that you referred to yesterday?
Mr. CRAFARD. How is that now?
Mr. HUBERT. Yesterday I understand that you referred to the fact that
a man had called Ruby by telephone on a sufficient number of occasions
so that you believe that you could recognize his voice if you heard it
again.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I will ask you if any of the voices that you heard in
this excerpt just run off on the machine is the voice of the man you
were talking about?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, having had a chance to listen to a number of voices
on the tape recording is there anything you can tell us about the voice
of the man who called you without leaving his name that Mr. Hubert has
been referring to. Did he have an accent?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; he didn’t have an accent.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he speak with any characteristic Texan or southern
speech patterns?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; his voice sounded more like a person from the East
would talk. His words were very pronounced and very definite.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is one photograph that I neglected to show you
yesterday which I want to show you now and ask you to identify.
I am going to mark this Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L.
Crafard, Exhibit 5222.
(Photograph marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5222 for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at that photograph and tell me if that is a
photograph of anyone you have ever seen before?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I have saw the gentleman before at the club but
I don’t believe I was ever introduced to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall in what connection you saw him in the
Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was a guest of Mr. Ruby’s.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when you may have seen him there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Exhibit 5223
which is a photograph of a piece of paper and it bears the name T. E.
Smith, and there is some other writing under it. Do you recognize that
name on that sheet of paper?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This exhibit is marked Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964,
C. L. Crafard Exhibit 5223 and it bears on the back the numeral one.
(Photographs marked Crafard Exhibits Nos. 5223 and 5224-A for
identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked as Washington,
D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard Exhibit No. 5224-A and I will ask
you if you will tell us what those are a picture of.
Mr. CRAFARD. They are pictures of a message, I would say that—there is
space for who the message is to, the date, who it is by, and when they
were there and the phone numbers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there three message slips photographed in that picture?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you ever recall seeing those around, such message
slips around, the Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever recall seeing those in any connection with Mr.
Ruby?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on there. Do you recognize any of the names on
those sheets of paper?
Mr. CRAFARD. None other than the name Ruby here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether Mr. Ruby received telephone calls
regularly at any phone other than the phone at the Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. He might at his home address. I wouldn’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at what I have marked in the same fashion
as Exhibit 5224-B and tell me if you recognize any of the names that
are shown in that photograph?
(Photograph marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5224-B for identification.)
Mr. CRAFARD. The middle one in the picture bears the name Pauline which
is the name of the assistant manager of the Vegas Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether there was somebody who stayed
throughout the day at the Vegas Club in the same manner that you stayed
throughout the day at the Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe there was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you a series of photographs all of
which are marked Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964 and which I am going
to mark Exhibit 5225. Each of these 19 photographs has in the upper
right-hand corner on the reverse side of the photograph a letter in
sequence from A to S. I would like you to look at all 19 of these
photographs and tell me if you recognize the notebook which they
purport to depict.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe these to be a notebook that Jack Ruby used.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would you recall seeing that notebook?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he carried it on his person.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yesterday you identified two other notebooks one which you
thought he kept on his person, the other which you thought he kept in
his desk.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Having seen this is there—would you change your testimony
any way about the other two notebooks that you identified yesterday?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So it is your testimony that Jack maintained at least
three small-sized notebooks that you recall?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had several of them, two or three of which he carried
on him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to state for the record that these photographs do
not have the normal commission number that is put on documents when
they come into the office. These photographs at this time have come to
us by a letter from the Federal Bureau of Investigation dated April 7,
and the letter indicates that this notebook was found in Jack Ruby’s
automobile.
I will identify this notebook further as having on the front cover the
word “Alladin”. The notebook appears to be a pocket-size notebook which
might be 2 by 3 inches or 1½ by 3 inches.
Under the word “Alladin” there is a triangle with some writing which I
am unable to read. Under the triangle, on the cover is written notebook
No. 3164.
Mr. HUBERT. You had better identify that picture you hold in your hand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The picture I am referring to here is Exhibit 5225-A.
The one refers to the number that the Bureau has put on in the upper
right-hand corner on the reverse side. I am going to ask you to look at
these photographs in sequence if you will look at Exhibit 5225-B, will
you tell me whether you recognize any of the names written on there?
(Photographs marked Crafard Exhibits Nos. 5225-A through 5225-S for
identification.)
Mr. CRAFARD. The name Pauline is on this page.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Milt Jaffe?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the name Bonnie also appears on this, that would
be the last name on this page.
Mr. GRIFFIN. State what you understand—you are looking through a
magnifying glass now at photograph number one, in the series of
Exhibits 5225 and there is a name on there that you believe to be
Bonnie?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record that as I look at it it
appears to be Barney, but assuming that it is Bonnie, that is—is that
name familiar with you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Bonnie, a girl was—a girl by the name of Bonnie worked as
a waitress at the Carousel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about any of the other names on that page?
Mr. CRAFARD. The name Pauline mentioned before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Correction for the record, we are looking at photograph B
in the 5225 series.
Would you look at photograph C in that series and tell me if you
recognize any of the names on there?
Mr. CRAFARD. This photograph doesn’t contain any names. It has
something to do with taxes, admission tax.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what Jack Ruby’s practice was while you
worked with him as to keeping track of taxes and so forth?
Mr. CRAFARD. On this admission tax we had some numbered tickets. When
each customer came in we tore one in half, tore half of the tickets and
gave them half of the ticket and once a month they would go at it and
count the tickets.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where he kept his records for those things?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know where he kept his records at.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his making entries in a small notebook for
such records?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not on the admission tickets.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have some sort of other book that he kept his tax
records in?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe his accountant kept most of the tax records but
there was something about the admission tax where him, Ruby and Andy
would work on that together and count the stubs.
But I don’t know where he kept record of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the admission charge to the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Two dollars.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it——
Mr. CRAFARD. This was including the taxes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that $2 every night or was there a different charge on
weekends?
Mr. CRAFARD. Two dollars every night at the Carousel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his charge for admission at the Vegas, if there
was any?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was 75 cents or 85 cents, something like
that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph D?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is another State admission tax note. July, August,
and September.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Exhibit D of Series 5225.
I want to show you E of Exhibit 5225. There are some names written down
there.
Do you recognize those names?
Mr. CRAFARD. Billy Brook, I have heard his name mentioned, I believe he
was a comedian; I am not sure.
There is Bobby Patterson. I have mentioned him as a band member for the
Vegas Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a notation under the name Bobby Patterson. Would
you read that?
Mr. CRAFARD. Right under the name?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. CRAFARD. I can’t make it out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To the right of the name there is a 6 with two zeros, and
right under the name Bobby Patterson it says, “and friends” and on the
same line to the right of the words “and friends” and under the 600 it
says “10” with two zeros.
Do you recognize—does that mean anything to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that handwriting that is shown there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I’m not positive, but I believe it is in Mr. Ruby’s
handwriting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the way Mr. Ruby made notations about money?
Mr. CRAFARD. This is his method of making notations with the 10 large
and two zeros small on the upper portion of the line.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else about that writing which makes you
think that is Jack Ruby’s writing?
Mr. CRAFARD. The fact that it is fairly small. And there is the name
Armstrong, the next name that I recognize, Andrew Armstrong. That is
all there is on that page.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph F and tell us if you
recognize anything on that photograph. This is of Exhibit 5225.
Mr. CRAFARD. What I recognize is really small writing down almost to
the bottom of the page, there are three lines right close together. The
names and phone numbers, the name Ruth Shay, I have heard the name, I
can’t recall exactly what her relation was, and the name Pauline again
and then Tex De Lacy, I believe I had his name and phone number wrote
down in my notebook.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph G and tell us if you
recognize any of the names there or any of the notations that are on
there.
Mr. CRAFARD. Other than the fact that it is apparently for excise tax
purposes for the Carousel Club, that is all I can say about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph H. Do you recognize any of
the names or notations on that photograph?
Mr. CRAFARD. This shows two pages and one page is excise tax for
Carousel Club. The other page has very little writing on it.
The name Joseph Rossi. I have heard Jack use the name Rossi quite a few
times, but I don’t know what it was about.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Joseph R-o-s-s-i?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph I in this series that we
have been looking at and tell me if you recognize any of the names and
notations there.
Mr. CRAFARD. The name Tom Palmer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You already testified about him.
Mr. CRAFARD. I already testified about Palmer and the other page has
the words revenue from the Vegas Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph J and tell us if you
recognize any of the names and notations there.
Mr. CRAFARD. There is one name on here, I believe I heard Jack mention,
but I am not sure. This Rocky Robinson, I am not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection as to the context or
connection that you may have heard that name used?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he introduced me to a man named Rocky, but I
can’t recall the last name of the gentleman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph K and would you tell us if
you recognize any of the names and notations there?
Mr. CRAFARD. None except for the insignia of KLIF Station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the Serv-U Pharmacy as being a business
in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph L and tell us if you
recognize any of the names and notations there?
Mr. CRAFARD. This is a repetition.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a duplicate photograph of the same picture that we
showed?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As 5225-K.
Would you look at M in this series of photographs and tell us if you
recognize any of the names and notations?
Mr. CRAFARD. There is the name Jeanine, Tammi, Lynn that I recognize,
Brother Bear.
The name Norma, I believe is the same phone number as I give for Miss
Norma Bennett, or Barnett.
I believe there is a Bob Litchfield, I believe that is the last name on
there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Those are all names that you testified about previously?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. I am not sure about that Litchfield.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Bertha Cheek that appears on
there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at N in this series of photographs and tell
us if you recognize any of the names and notations there?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at photograph O in the series and address
yourself to the same questions?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t recognize any that is on here. There appears to be
the word “taxes”.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you look at P and tell us if you recognize any of the
names and notations there?
Mr. CRAFARD. There is the words Morning News, Carousel rent and
something about the laminating company.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do those—can you tell whose handwriting those notations
are in?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe they are in Jack’s handwriting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it Jack Ruby’s practice to make notes for himself of
things he had to do any particular day?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know for sure whether he did or not. On one or two
occasions I have saw him make notes of things he wanted to do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look at Exhibit Q and tell us if you recognize
any of the names or notations there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mike Shore.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You testified about him previously.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
There is Ed Pullman’s name on there. I have testified about him
previously.
And Joe Williams, I believe from the band at the Carousel Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to direct your attention back again to photograph
P in this series, Exhibit 5225. There is a notation on here “baby
bottle.” Do you have any idea what Jack Ruby would have had to do with
any baby bottles?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t, whatsoever.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On Exhibit Q in this series, 5225, there is a notation
“Goodwill Industries”. Did Jack—do you remember having anything to do
with Goodwill Industries?
Mr. CRAFARD. Except the fact that most of my clothes were bought there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The name Dalton appears in connection with that.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he spoke with Mr. Dalton in connection with
trying to get the Goodwill Industries interested in the twist boards,
their manufacture, I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is also a notation after the word “Mike Shore”
appears to be the word “blades”. Did Mike Shore have anything to do
with the Wilkinson blades that Jack gave away?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I know of; not to my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is also a notation on here that appears to read
“Stubbe Machine”, some sort of machine that looks like Stubby.
Mr. CRAFARD. The only thing I could say with that it might be in
connection with the laminating machine that he was thinking about
getting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, tell us about the laminating machine that he
was thinking about getting.
Mr. CRAFARD. These free passes he was giving out he was having them
laminated in plastic and he was thinking about getting a machine to do
it himself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he intending to purchase this machine?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. These were free passes to the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the practice of giving passes away to the Carousel
exist all the time you worked for Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. He started that practice just after I went to work
for him, giving them to people that he had business with, personal
acquaintances, and different important businessmen from different areas
of the country.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to Andy Armstrong or Jack so that you
would be able to state whether he had given away passes prior to that
time?
Mr. CRAFARD. To my—as far as I know, he had never given them away
before this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Monte that appears on this
photograph Q in the 5225 series?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the name of a fellow by the name of Monte
Timmons?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe I ever met the man. I don’t remember the
name.
Excuse me 1 minute.
I believe that is a woman’s name. There was a woman by the name of
Monte, had a phone call, had Ryan call her back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Ryan?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to show you photograph R and ask you if you
recognize any of the names or notations there.
Mr. CRAFARD. Bill Petty’s name is on there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was a friend of Jack’s. I met him at the
Carousel Club. Jack introduced me to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he live in Dallas?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what he did? How often did you meet him at the
Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he was there two or three times while I was
working for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he come during business hours or would he come in
the afternoon, or morning, when there weren’t patrons there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe when I first met him was in the afternoon, but
other than that it was during business hours.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what the nature of Jack’s connection with
Petty was?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
There is the name Gladys. I spoke of her before.
And this Dr. Uhleviteh was Mrs. Grant’s doctor.
The name Oscar Newman seems familiar, but I don’t recollect what there
was about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There appears to be an abbreviation for Mrs. written above
Oscar Newman, does that mean anything to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will hand you photograph S in this series we have been
looking at. Do you recognize any of the names there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Little Lynn’s name is on there.
There is the name Gloria with the last name of R-e-t-t-i-g, the last
name doesn’t mean anything to me. The first name was the same as we
have mentioned before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Vicky Williams a name that you recognize?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yesterday I gave you a copy of the FBI report of its
interview with you. Did you have a chance to look that over?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As a result of having read that interview, are there any
changes or corrections that you desire to make in that interview?
Mr. CRAFARD. Mostly were minor changes. One was the spelling of my
wife’s maiden name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How should that be spelled?
Mr. CRAFARD. It should be spelled with a “P” instead of an “O” there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you take my pen and correct that and then initial it
and date it where it appears in the interview?
I am going to mark this exhibit, “Washington, D. C., April 10, 1964.
C. L. Crafard, Exhibit 5226,” and I am going to sign my name to the
bottom of the first page.
(The document was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5226, for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. I have made this notation on the first page of what
purports to be an FBI report of an interview with Mr. Crafard, the
interview having been conducted on November 28, 1963, at Bellaire,
Mich., by Special Agent Theodore S. Kramer, K-r-a-m-e-r, dictated
November 29, 1963.
There are eight pages to this report and at the bottom of each page
there is a number beginning in sequence with the number 147 and
continuing through the number 154 on the last page.
I am going to put my own initials on pages 148 through 154.
You have made your first correction of the name of your wife?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the first page of this Exhibit 5226?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, are there any other changes?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes, the date of our wedding instead of the 16th of June
was the 22d of June.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are correcting that in the same fashion that you made
of the other correction?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. The fact he stated here almost every hour Ruby was
asking about calls. Called between one and three times a day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s make a correction on there, then, if this is
agreeable to you the sentence reads, “other than that Ruby would
telephone I call, I contact him almost every hour for any calls.”
After the word “contact him” why don’t you cross out the remainder of
the sentence and then make a correction in your handwriting.
Mr. CRAFARD. “almost every hour.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are crossing out “almost every hour” and you are going
to write something in there.
He has written on here “one or two times” but he spelled day “b-a-y”
and he has put his initials CLC with the date 4-10-64. He has crossed
out the words “almost every hour.”
Are there any other additions or corrections?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe there were a couple of small minor changes in
there. This about Ruby kept the revolver when he had money. There was
only one occasion when he would take the revolver from the car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Well, we will have to change that, then.
Mr. CRAFARD. With this, I can go back and name the one MC I have
mentioned and I couldn’t think of his name, Bill Norman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you have referred to this sentence: “He
said that when transporting money Ruby kept his money in the trunk with
the revolver and always kept the revolver with him when moving money.”
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to cross out everything after the phrase
“with the revolver”?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And if you want to add anything, state something to the
effect that, as you have just told me that on one occasion you recall
him having the revolver with him.
Mr. CRAFARD. On one occasion I know of him having the revolver with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the correction you have made on the paper.
Let me ask you a few questions here, Larry.
Is the one occasion that you are referring to the time when he asked
you to go down and get the revolver for him, or are you talking about
another occasion?
Mr. CRAFARD. There was one other occasion when he brought the revolver
into the club and it stayed there all evening, when he stayed in the
club, and when he left he took the revolver with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when that was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was about a week and a half before the
assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you remember that episode?
Mr. CRAFARD. I was trying to remember as much as I can about it, and I
remember taking the revolver to him helped me remember the fact that he
had it on one occasion with him in the club before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything that he did or said which gave you any
indication of why he had the revolver with him in the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I believe he had money in the same sack with the
revolver, and he just brought it in all together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a safe in the club at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; but he didn’t use it very often. I believe he had it.
I believe he had it at that time; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You testified before that it was Jack’s practice either at
the end of every business day or the next day to pick the money up and
take it away from the club.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On how many occasions would you say you were present when
Jack, when you saw Jack take money away from the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say almost every time that he took money from the
club I was present.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And on any of these occasions other than the one you have
just described, do you recall his having a gun on his person?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I can recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him take the money and actually put it in
his car?
Mr. CRAFARD. On several occasions, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would he put the money in his car?
Mr. CRAFARD. In the trunk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in a position where you could observe him put the
money into the trunk?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you observe him take anything out of the trunk on
those occasions?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in a position so you could have seen him if he
took a gun out of the trunk and carried it with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I was usually right beside him placing something in
the car, myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you then on these occasions accompany Jack any place?
Mr. CRAFARD. Once or twice, but usually just put stuff in the car for
him and went back upstairs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And when you would leave Jack on any of these occasions,
did he have other people with him, who drove off with him?
Mr. CRAFARD. One or two times; yes. A couple of times he had Mr. Ralph
Paul with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how many occasions would you say you went down with
him to the car when he carried money down, put the money in the trunk,
and Jack drove off then alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say most of the time when I went down with him he
drove off alone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us what your best estimate is of the number
of times this would have been when he drove off alone?
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say about eight or nine times that I am definite.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times a day did you have occasion to go into the
trunk of Jack’s automobile?
Mr. CRAFARD. Maybe it would be 2 or 3 days I wouldn’t go near his
automobile, and there might be a day when I would go get something out
of the trunk of his car two or three different times during the day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On occasions when you went down to the trunk of his car
was Jack carrying money around in the trunk of his car?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He most always had money in the trunk of his car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know this?
Mr. CRAFARD. He had told me so on several occasions, and on several
occasions I was with him when he placed money in his car when I went
upstairs and then he would send me down after something out of the
trunk of his car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell whether, after Jack would carry the
daily receipts down to the car if he would continue to carry money in
his car, in the trunk of his car, or whether he would take the money
out so that the next day when he would come back and pick up the next
day’s receipts the trunk was empty so far as money was concerned?
Mr. CRAFARD. He carried the money for the receipts for a week at a time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On these occasions when he carried the money for a week at
a time, do you ever recall him going into the trunk and putting the gun
in his pocket as he was driving off?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. Only one time that I can recall a gun being in the
car, I was in the car with Jack, I believe it was the second night I
was at the Vegas Club, he brought the money sack in and the money sack
that the gun was in, was in the main money sack, and we put it in the
front seat of the car between us, right by my side.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it Jack’s practice to keep a key to the trunk of the
car any place in the automobile?
Mr. CRAFARD. Other than on his key ring, I wouldn’t know of any keys.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many occasions did you have to go down to Jack’s
automobile by yourself and open the trunk of the car?
Mr. CRAFARD. Oh, I would say between 15 or 20 or 25 times while I was
with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And on each of these occasions did you have to get a key
to open the trunk?
Mr. CRAFARD. Jack would give me the key, he would give me his key ring
with the key on it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there ever any occasions when Jack left the trunk
unlocked that you recall?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. The trunk on his car was the type that you have got to
unlock it to open it, and when you close it it automatically locks, and
you remove the key and it automatically locks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have a regular parking space for his car near the
Carousel Club?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; in the parking garage right downstairs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen where he parked his car at his home?
Mr. CRAFARD. I saw the parking lot. I don’t know whether he used the
same space all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it an open parking lot?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Jack had any sort of a safe in this
apartment?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is, you don’t know.
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to ask
along this line?
Mr. HUBERT. You were talking about the trunk and the money and all
that. Did you get into the record about where the gun was?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe we did, but why don’t you ask the questions?
Mr. HUBERT. It wasn’t clear to me, perhaps I didn’t catch it, as to
whether or not Jack kept the gun in the trunk of the car or on his
person.
Mr. CRAFARD. In the trunk of the car, he kept it in a money sack in the
trunk of the car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe your testimony was that, so that Mr. Hubert
can be brought up to date, that you only ever saw him carry the gun
on his person on two occasions, one of those occasions being when you
brought the gun up to him at the club in connection with some sort of
an argument that he had, and the other one was when he brought it in a
money bag on one occasion.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So that your testimony a few moments ago concerning the
money and how you saw him put money in there, sometimes you carried
it down, or at least saw it there, is that when there was money there
there was a gun with the money, usually in a sack with the money?
Mr. CRAFARD. The money was usually in a different, separate sack from
the gun, but at times he would take the sacks, on these two occasions
that I know of, he took the sack the money was in, the sack the gun was
in and put them all in a larger sack.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him to own a holster?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. To hold a gun?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. On the two occasions that he did have the gun on his
person, how did he have it?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was inside of a money sack, and he carried it in his
hands, the money sack wrapped around the gun and laying in his hand.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the two occasions that you say he had it on his
person?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You never saw him put it in his pocket or his waistbelt?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That is all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever heard from Jack or Andy Armstrong or anybody
else that Jack had ever been robbed or burglarized?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Continuing on with your copy of the FBI interview report,
are there any other corrections or additions or changes that you would
make?
Mr. CRAFARD. One addition I would like to make to my testimony of the
fact that when Ruby first came to the club on the day that President
Kennedy was killed, and before he left he called the paper and placed
an ad to the effect that we would be closed, from the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are reading this out of what is page 150?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of your interview report?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have had a chance to read this interview report, and
does this refresh your recollection?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. After reading it yesterday evening, and thinking
about the whole thing yesterday, last night at the hotel, I have
refreshed my memory to some extent.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After having refreshed your recollection with this report,
are you able to state how soon after Ruby came into the club he told
Andy Armstrong to notify the personnel?
Mr. CRAFARD. It wasn’t more than about a half hour or 45 minutes after
he came into the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But he didn’t do it right away?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You people sat around for awhile?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you discuss as you were sitting there the question of
closing the club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe we did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember how Jack came to give these instructions
to Andy?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon after Andy began to call the personnel do you
remember Jack calling the newspapers and changing the ad?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was just shortly after Andy started calling
personnel and Jack went in and used the pay phone and said something
about calling the paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You recall if up to that time Jack had received a
telephone call from any newspaper person asking him if his clubs were
going to be open?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any other additions or changes or corrections
that you would make in this interview report in your testimony as a
result of having read the interview report?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe yesterday I was talking about the financial
setup of the club. I believe I said it was fairly good. I would say
that this portion of my statement here referring to the financial setup
was gained from the fact that Jack was always complaining about going
broke, and a portion in my testimony the other day about the financial
position of the club was my own opinion.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are referring to page 150 of the interview report?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And as I understand what you are saying in here was that
when you told the FBI that the club couldn’t financially stand to be
closed, you were making that statement on the basis of what Jack had
said?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But your own personal opinion was?
Mr. CRAFARD. That the club was making enough money to hold its own,
even on a closure of 2 or 3 or maybe 4 days.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to make a change on page 150 so that—well,
maybe we shouldn’t make this change. There is no question in your mind
but that the FBI interview states, is an accurate reporting of what you
said at that time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; there is no question.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, passing on to page 151, is there anything there that
you would change?
Mr. CRAFARD. The fact here that Ruby said he was going to his sister
at that time. I don’t believe he at that time mentioned where he was
going. When he returned later in the evening he mentioned where he was
going.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to the language at the top of page 151
which says, “Ruby said that he was going to his sister’s home and asked
Crafard if he desired to accompany him, which offer was refused”?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe there was a time element setup there where
they haven’t included in this testimony here of the fact that the early
portion of this was about the financial setup, about calling the paper
was at one time, and when he said something about going to his sister
was later in the afternoon.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Continuing on page 151, are there any other additions or
corrections or changes you would make?
Mr. CRAFARD. The second paragraph on page 151, the second complete
paragraph where it starts, “Ruby then came back to the club or called
Crafard about 7:30 p.m., that evening.” I would like to strike out or
called about 7:30 p.m., in the evening. The fact he had come back to
the club is something I have established yesterday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. But you did at that time you talked to the FBI,
you weren’t sure whether he came back or called?
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how about the time—7:30 p.m., as you think back about
that now?
Mr. CRAFARD. At the time——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that an accurate time?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so. I believe it was a supposed time,
approximate time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But is that your best recollection of the time, or would
you now alter your estimate of what time it was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that I said yesterday it was about 6 or 6:30
when he came back to the club, I am not sure. I would say between 6:30
and 7:30 would be about the best estimate I might give on it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you make that estimate?
Mr. CRAFARD. If I remember right, 8 o’clock I was sitting in the
drugstore eating lunch, approximately 8 o’clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you recall being at the drugstore at 8 o’clock?
Mr. CRAFARD. The one girl that works over there goes off at 8 o’clock
and she left while I was there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So, actually, you got to the drugstore some time before 8
o’clock?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And by that time Jack Ruby had already returned to the
club and asked you to accompany him to Eva Grant’s?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack mention to you at that time anything about going
to the synagogue?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; not that I can remember. On the third paragraph on
page 151, I believe yesterday I gave an earlier time for this same
event of Jack calling me at the club on the morning of November 23.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, the language you are referring to is on Saturday
morning, November 23, at about 5:30 a.m., Ruby called him and told him
to meet him downstairs with the Polaroid camera and some film.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I believe yesterday that the time I gave was about 2
hours earlier than this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your best recollection now as to the time? Was
your memory more accurate at the time you told the FBI about this
episode or is it more accurate now after having spent 2 days discussing
the matter?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe in the trial in Texas it came out pretty well to
where it just about had to be between 4:30 and 5 when he called.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you arrive at that conclusion?
Mr. CRAFARD. At the trial, there was quite a bit of questioning on this
effect.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of you?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. And I believe the different times that some of the
previous witnesses had given the lawyer, and I come to the agreement it
must have been about between 4:30 and 5 o’clock that he called me.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your best recollection now? That is what we want to
get.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s disregard what other people have told you to suggest
what the time is, and try to think about your own activities. As I
recall, you testified that you talked for 2 or 3 hours with a girl on
the telephone.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then you read for a while, and then you apparently
started to doze off, to go to sleep.
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe the other time, the time element I used
yesterday would be more of a correct time than this.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us just your recollection right now today.
Mr. CRAFARD. I would say between about 3:30 and 4:30.
In the same paragraph further down, closer towards the bottom. “When he
got to the car, George, Ruby’s roommate, was also there and they drove
out on the Stemmons Freeway.” I believe in this testimony here the
Stemmons Freeway was more of a suggested name to me than anything else.
I would like to clearly state I am definitely not positive of that sign.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you testified also yesterday that it was the
Central Expressway.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. I believe it was on the Central Expressway.
Referring to page 152 of this testimony, and back to previous
testimony, I have made here concerning the mention of the name of Lee
Harvey Oswald, I believe that this would be about the first time that
we used the name of Oswald, was used very much among us. Previous to
this, I don’t believe there was any reference made to this person by
name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Starting on page 151?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. With the sentence, “He also recalled that while being at
the waffle shop on Commerce Street, Ruby was reading about Lee Harvey
Oswald in a newspaper.”
Mr. CRAFARD. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long a time would you say you spent at the waffle shop?
Mr. CRAFARD. Twenty or twenty-five minutes, maybe a half hour.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what time it was when you were at the waffle
shop?
Mr. CRAFARD. Right around six in the morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you spend at the Earl Warren sign
photographing that sign?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not more than 20 minutes at the most.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You think it might have been as long as 20 minutes?
Mr. CRAFARD. It might have been; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you spend some time in the car talking about the sign
before you got out to photograph it?
Mr. CRAFARD. No. I believe we got out of the car immediately when we
pulled over.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it take you 15 or 20 minutes to photograph the sign?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did it take so long?
Mr. CRAFARD. Trying to get the right angle on the sign where I could
get the clearest picture of the words of the sign.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have to walk across the street to photograph the
sign?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby get out of the car with you at the time?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; all three of us, Ruby, Senator and myself got out of
the car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Going over onto page 152, are there any additions or
corrections which you would make?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; that is about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you some specific questions about that. I
have made some notes myself.
On the bottom of page 148 of the FBI interview, which is Exhibit 5226,
the FBI reports this language, “However, Andy Armstrong or Alexander,
the assistant manager and bartender would handle the money until
midnight.”
Did you ever know Andy Armstrong by the name of Alexander?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I couldn’t recall exactly what his last name was. At
that time I believe my recollection was that it was either Armstrong or
Alexander but I wasn’t positive just exactly what his last name was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In this interview as reported on page 147 of Exhibit 5226,
you state that “After completing this job Ruby asked him to stay at the
club and work for room and board.”
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He had the room in front of Ruby’s office? This would be
approximately November 1, 1963?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you have testified previously here that you
thought you worked for Ruby for 6 weeks to 2 months.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But, of course, if you went to work for him on November
1 you would have only worked for him about 3 weeks. Now, which is the
more accurate recollection?
Mr. CRAFARD. My dates are mixed up on that. I am not positive of the
date of the Dallas, Texas State Fair.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work at the State Fair until the State Fair closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I thought I understood your testimony on Wednesday to be
that the second show that you worked for there, the one with the band——
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Closed a few days before the State Fair actually closed.
Mr. CRAFARD. It closed the day before the State Fair actually closed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue to work at the State Fair?
Mr. CRAFARD. I stayed at the State Fair.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that the way to accurately date when you began to work
for Ruby would be in terms of when the State Fair closed?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would be starting the day after the Dallas, Tex., State
Fair closed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did the State Fair last?
Mr. CRAFARD. Two weeks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that the show, How Hollywood Makes Movies lasted about
1 week?
Mr. CRAFARD. Right at that; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the band show lasted about another week?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On page 149, the FBI reports you as indicating, and I am
quoting, “He said that one night approximately November 14 or 15, 1963,
Ruby was having trouble with an MC Earl Norman at the Carousel and
about 1:30 a.m., he, Ruby, sent Crafard out to the car to get the gun.”
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe in testimony yesterday I stated that I couldn’t
remember exactly who he had the trouble with, and I am right now not
clear after thinking all night, I am not clear in my mind as to the
fact that it was Earl Norman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your memory accurate at the time you talked with the
FBI?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive of that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure, though, that the reason Ruby went to get the
gun was because he was having trouble with the M.C.?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; that is what I say. I am not positive of the fact who
it was he was having trouble with.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure that Ruby went to get the gun because he was
having trouble with somebody?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; he had had some trouble with somebody and he had sent
me to get the gun.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You stated that the gun was believed to be the property of
Howard?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Negro employee, and I am reading that from page 149.
Is it still your understanding that that gun was Howard’s gun?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Shortly after I went to work for Jack he told me or Howard told me that
when he first went to work for Jack he had three or four different
guns and he had permits for his pistols, and on a couple of occasions
the law forces confiscated his pistols and later returned them, and he
was afraid this might happen again and he wouldn’t get this particular
pistol back so Jack asked him if he could borrow the gun and he told
Jack yes; he could use the gun as long as he wanted.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever say anything to you which indicated that the
gun was not Jack Ruby’s gun?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to Howard about the gun that Jack Ruby had at
any time after you went down to the car on the 14th or 15th of November
to bring the gun up to Jack?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk specifically with Howard about the gun
that Jack was carrying around in the trunk of his car?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; this was the gun our conversation was about. He said
that gun had belonged, it was his gun, that he had loaned it to Mr.
Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what kind of a .38 caliber revolver this
was?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe it was a Colt. Other than that I couldn’t say.
It was a snubnosed revolver, Colt snubnosed is all I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything distinguishing about the handle?
Mr. CRAFARD. I couldn’t describe anything distinguishable about the
handle, but I believe I could recognize the revolver if I was to see
it. Excuse me, that handle was an, I believe an imitation bone handle
on that pistol. I believe it was kind of a grayish-white imitation bone
handle with dark brown spots on it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You testified that you believe Little Lynn called sometime
on Friday evening, November 22?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time would be your recollection that telephone call
was received, was it before or after you had dinner at 8 o’clock over
at the drug store?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that was before I had dinner. I believe I said
something to Jack about it when he came back and he said if she called
again to give, tell her to call Miss Grant.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she call back?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so. And I told her to call Miss Grant.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On page 151 of Exhibit 5226 you are reported as saying in
connection with the photograph of the Earl Warren sign and the post
office box and I am quoting from the FBI report, “Crafard said he was
completely puzzled as Earl Warren was unknown to him.”
I believe you testified earlier here in Washington that you recall Ruby
making some connection between an advertisement that he had seen in the
newspaper and the Earl Warren sign.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remember that connection at the time you talked
with the FBI?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe I said something to them about the numbers on
the address having something to do with something else that Ruby had
talked about. I don’t believe I would have anything to do with this
advertisement. I don’t believe anything on that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that—are you clear that Ruby, now, that
Ruby did make some connection between the advertisement and the sign?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; very clear. It was in connection with the addresses
on the sign and this post office box number on this ad that he had saw
in the paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you making this statement as a result of something
that you personally recall or is this something that is now in your
mind because of conversations you may have had with other people?
Mr. CRAFARD. This is something that I personally, clearly recall him
making the statement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it—Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to
ask along that line?
On page 153 of Exhibit 5226 the FBI reports and I quote, “He knows of
no police contacts on Ruby’s behalf but said Ruby did keep a police
card in the cash register at the Carousel with a name unknown to him on
it.”
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you describe this police card?
Mr. CRAFARD. It was a white card with the emblem of a badge on it
with some numbers on top of it, numbers on the badge. I can’t recall
what they were, if they were even clear. I believe it to have been in
connection with some sort of a police club or something of that sort,
either that or it was a detective’s card that he might have one of the
business cards, something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was a card about the size of a business card?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And could you tell what police department this person was
from?
Mr. CRAFARD. Dallas, Tex., Police Department.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been the Dallas County Sheriff’s office?
Mr. CRAFARD. It could have been; yes, sir. It was from the Dallas, one
of the Dallas police departments.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did it have the name that was written on this card
or printed on the card, did it have a rank in connection with it?
Mr. CRAFARD. I don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been a card from a justice of the peace?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t believe so. I never saw a justice of a peace
card with an emblem of a shield on it. They usually have the emblem of
the Justice Department.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned Bill Willis as being a close friend of Jack.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Bill Willis the leader of the band that played at the
Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you sure of that?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive but I believe he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Bill Willis, Ruby’s closest friend, in the band?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What led you to that conclusion?
Mr. CRAFARD. Well, the fact that they would talk together quite often,
if something come up in connection with the band it was always Bill
he talked to. Bill seemed to talk to Ruby more than any of the other
member of the band, and Ruby when he talked to anybody in the band it
would be to Bill Willis more than anyone else.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to depart from this exhibit for a bit. You
worked for the Tear Plating Company?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not clear whether that was in Texas or Oregon.
Mr. CRAFARD. In Dallas, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Ablon Poultry?
Mr. CRAFARD. Dallas, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a detective by the name of Joe Cody?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe that Jack had me call him on one occasion where
he wanted to talk to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned that you worked at the Dallas State Fair for
Bob Craven and Deke Miles.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about those men that would have led you
to believe that they were homosexuals?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were working for Jack did you know that he was
getting any skin or scalp treatments of any sort?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know anything about any trichology treatments he
was getting?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack express, ever express any concern about his
baldness?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This wasn’t a subject that he joked about or that other
people kidded him about?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I remember; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall while you were working for Jack, Jack’s
making any inquiry concerning a business partner?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes. He was trying to get somebody to go in with him to
open another club in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear him say about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. He called two or three different people and talked to them
trying to get them to go in with him on this club. He made something,
a statement to the effect that he had a building already, that it
wouldn’t take much to get it into shape, something about they could
make the best club in Dallas, make it into the best club in Dallas, I
believe specialized clientele, you might say a closed club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this going to be a striptease club?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any of the people that Jack talked with
about that?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack trying to interest these people in doing?
Mr. CRAFARD. Backing him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He was looking for money?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anything about any friends that Jack had at a
bar called Ed’s Bar?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar with Ed’s Bar?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Dallas Cabana, do you know anything about
any friends or acquaintances down there?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he knew the gentleman who runs the Cabana Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that man ever at the Carousel?
Mr. CRAFARD. I am not positive. He may have been but I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea how often Jack visited the Cabana?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea how often he visited the Baker Hotel
or the Adolphus Hotel?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet or hear Jack talk about or hear anybody
else talk about a girl named Connie Tramel or Trammell?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you testified before that you don’t recall Jack
saying anything about, saying anything after the President was killed
about the dogs he was going to send to California?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether Jack visited the Ritz Delicatessen?
Mr. CRAFARD. The what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of the Ritz, R-i-t-z, Delicatessen?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe he ate meals there occasionally, although I am
not positive.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack discuss any travels he had taken?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss having been to Cuba?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss anything about taking a
Caribbean cruise?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Plans for taking a Caribbean cruise?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss Barney Ross?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not that I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Barney Ross’ name familiar to you?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked as “Exhibit 5227”
and I would like you to look at that and tell me if you recognize that.
(Letter marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5227 for identification.)
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; it is a letter I wrote.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to tell without having read that letter when
it was you wrote it?
Mr. CRAFARD. Not the exact date. It was while I was working for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you recall how long it was before you left Dallas
before you wrote that letter?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe about a week before I left Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall why you didn’t mail that letter?
Mr. CRAFARD. No, I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you read that letter through and tell us if that is
the actual letter that you wrote?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; this is the letter I wrote.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you like that letter back?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I would.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Would you mind if we made a photocopy?
Mr. CRAFARD. I wouldn’t mind it if you want it but that—but just give
me a moment. I believe the reason I didn’t mail this letter because I
had remembered—because I had rewrote the letter just about exactly as
it is here, but in a neater hand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you actually did mail that letter?
Mr. CRAFARD. I believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you left Dallas did you mail that letter?
Mr. CRAFARD. It would have been about a week. About the same time I
wrote it. I am not sure of it, I am not definite of that. But I believe
that is the reason, I have done so on several occasions, wrote a letter
and then rewrote it so it would be neater.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I realize the letter is a personal letter. However, I
think it reflects some things about your state of mind while you were
in Dallas and your relationship to Jack Ruby that we would like to have
for the record and maybe we can handle this by my giving you a copy of
that letter.
Mr. CRAFARD. Have you got a copy?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t have a photocopy of it but I have—it has
been written up in an FBI report and simply ask you if that is an
accurate—the FBI report is an accurate rendition of the letter and then
we can refer to it.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Crafard, I understand you have asked us to return to
you the original of the letter written by you to “Dear Gale” covering
the front and back of a page, which has a letterhead on it “Jack Ruby
Associates, Dallas, Texas” and which has been identified in this
deposition as Exhibit 5227. Normally when a witness produces a document
before the Commission we make a photostatic copy, keep the copy and
then give the witness his document back. However, this document did not
come into our possession in that way, you see.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. We got this document from the FBI. Therefore, we do not
have authority to give it back to you. I will be glad to have a copy
made for you if you would like to do that.
Mr. CRAFARD. That is all right.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you like a copy?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; there is no need to go to that trouble. It is just I
had no idea I had left that particular letter. I know I didn’t do it on
purpose. It was accidental, but I left it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry, I want to hand you what has been marked for
identification as “Exhibits 5228-A” and “5228-B”. Now, do you recognize
those as photographs of anything?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; these are photographs of my DD-214, my Army
discharge, the front and back sides.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those, that DD-214, is the paper that you turned over
to us on Wednesday?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are those true and accurate copies of the DD-214 that you
gave to us?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I am going to return to you your copy of the
DD-214, and thank you for producing that. I am also going to hand you
two photographs which I will mark in the following manner—hand you
one photograph—I am going to hand you two photographs which I may
have marked “Washington D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard, Exhibits
5229-A and B,” and I will ask you to look at those and tell us if you
recognize those as photographs of anything which you have seen before.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; they are exhibits of the front side and reverse side
of the subpena that I was handed for the Jack Ruby murder trial in
Dallas, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You brought this subpena to us and turned it
over to us on Wednesday, is that right?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to return you, then, the subpena which you
gave us on Wednesday, and thank you for bringing that in. Did you also
produce on Wednesday a diary?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you a series of 10 photographs which
are marked, “Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard, Exhibits
5230,” and they are numbered on the face of the photograph in a
sequence starting with “A” which contains a picture of the front cover
of a notebook which says, “USS” with a circle around the USS, and then
in quotation marks “oil well” and then down on the bottom right-hand
corner of this front cover which is photographed the number 1964. That
photograph has the letter “A” on the front of it. After that, there
are a series of photographs numbered in sequence 1 through 10 making a
total of 11 photographs altogether. Now, I would like you to look at
these photographs and tell us if that is a, if those photographs are
photographs of anything that you have ever seen before.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; these are photographs of a pocket diary that is put
out by United States Steel for the oil well corporation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who maintained that diary?
Mr. CRAFARD. I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that, are those photographs of the diary which you
turned over to us on Wednesday?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you go through those photographs and tell us if
everything that you have written in that diary up to date has been
photographed in those pictures?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; everything I have wrote in that book is here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do the Nos. 1 through 10 follow in sequence with the
pages, the sequence of the pages that contain writing in your notebook?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to direct your attention to photograph No. 1.
There is a notation at the top of that photograph. Would you read that
notation?
Mr. CRAFARD. “No. 844,” the letters HEB 12, 13 and underneath, 844 is
the Nos. 12 with a dash 23.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you put that notation in the notebook?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you put that on there?
Mr. CRAFARD. Just shortly after I got the notebook in Michigan.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is that notation, what does that refer to?
Mr. CRAFARD. It refers to the Bible. It is referring to the Book of
Hebrews, page 844 the 12th Chapter, and 23d verse.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you write that in there?
Mr. CRAFARD. There is something in the Bible that refers to the church
to which I belong.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What church is that?
Mr. CRAFARD. General Assembly Church of the First Born. That is the
only place in the Bible where the name can be found.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions that you want to ask
about the notebook?
Mr. HUBERT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to return the notebook to you at this time,
and I want to thank you for bringing those documents to us. I want
to ask you one final question. Is there anything which has come to
your attention in connection with the murder of Lee Oswald or the
assassination of President Kennedy that you haven’t told us about that
you think would be of value to the Commission?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I can’t think of anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will ask you after we conclude this deposition if
anything does come to your attention which might be of value to the
Commission if you would contact us and bring it to our attention.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes; I will do so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions that you want to ask?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes. There have been several conversations between us which
might be called interviews in the sense we were talking about the
matter at hand during lunch and so forth, is that correct?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that anything we conversed about at lunch
or any interviews, has not been subsequently made a part of this
deposition?
Mr. CRAFARD. No; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever talked to any other member of the Commission
staff than Mr. Griffin and myself?
Mr. CRAFARD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you feel that considering your testimony and various
exhibits that you have identified that we have all you know about the
matter that the Commission is investigating?
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is, the death of President Kennedy, and the
subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and Ruby’s connection
therewith.
Mr. CRAFARD. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to thank you for coming here and spending these 3
days with us, and I believe that concludes the deposition.
TESTIMONY OF WILBYRN WALDON (ROBERT) LITCHFIELD II
The testimony of Wilbyrn Waldon (Robert) Litchfield II was taken at
1:35 p.m., on April 16, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301
Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr.
Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This will be the deposition of Mr. Wilbyrn Litchfield, II——
Mr. LITCHFIELD. When I sign, I sign “W. W. (Bob) II”,—does that need to
be in there?
Mr. HUBERT. You can bring that out later when I ask you more about your
name.
Mr. Litchfield, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy, under the provisions of Executive
Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress
No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in
conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, and I
have been authorized to take a sworn deposition of you.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report on the facts relating to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Litchfield, the nature of the inquiry
today is to determine what facts you know or may know about the death
of Oswald, or any other facts you may know about the general inquiry,
or, about the possible connection, if any, of Jack Ruby with the death
of Oswald or the death of President Kennedy.
I think you have appeared here by virtue of a letter—written request
made to you?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t receive a letter to come?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Sorrels called me long distance.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I must advise you then that under the rules
established by the Warren Commission, to govern the procedure of
handling witnesses and so forth, every witness is entitled to a 3-day
written notice that we wish to take his deposition, but those rules
also provide that if a witness wishes to, he may waive that 3-day
notice and just go ahead and testify now. So, I ask you now whether you
are willing to waive the 3-day notice and proceed to testify now?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and I will administer the oath.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. You are commonly known among your friends as Bobby?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Bob.
Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand also that there are some of your legal
documents that you always sign that way too?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I sign it “W. W. (Robert) Litchfield, II.”
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Thirty.
Mr. HUBERT. Now where do you reside?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. 654 West Cross Timbers, Houston, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Professional bowler and bowling instructor and I sell
trophies for a bowling supply and bowling equipment office—balls, bags,
shoes—etc.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Since January of this year—approximately the middle of
January.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation prior to that time?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. From July 1963, until January of 1964, I did not work.
In July 1963, from March 1, 1962, until July 1963, I sold books and
worked myself up to a regional manager’s position.
Mr. HUBERT. Of what company?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was with the Spencer International Press from March
of 1962 until May of 1963 working in Dallas-Fort Worth—made district
manager in San Jose, Calif., made regional manager February 1963, in
Atlanta, Ga., and stayed until May of 1963, and my father’s death
brought me back to Dallas. I left Spencer and went to work for Great
Books of the Western World in June, made district manager in 2 weeks,
and was terminated in July due to my past record.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by “past record”?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I have a criminal record when I was 19 years old,
that’s 11 years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the nature of it?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I forged some hot checks and paid them off, but because
I still had a bunch of them out—I had three charges in Fort Worth,
eight in Dallas, the sum total was roughly $3,000. Restitution was made
prior to the time I went to court. I went to court and received 3 years
concurrently on each charge, 3 years on each charge in Fort Worth, 3
years on each charge in Dallas, and concurrently backdated at Fort
Worth to August of 1952.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that in the Federal Court?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; State and county. I was in prison from
February—well, I was arrested August 1952, pleaded guilty in Fort Worth
in November 1952, pleaded guilty in Dallas in January 1953, went to
Huntsville Prison in February 1953, made conditional pardon in December
1953—do you want all this?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; and you were released then, I take it?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right. Pardon was reversed because I was married and I
was voluntarily returned from Denver, Colo.; I just came back myself
and turned myself in at Huntsville and I was released in April of 1956.
Mr. HUBERT. You were actually released from Huntsville in December
1953, under a conditional pardon?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir; to Denver, Colo.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, that it was with the permission of the
State of Texas—Texas authorities?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you on any terms of good conduct?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I had to report each month.
Mr. HUBERT. In Denver?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right, and obtain a job, and I obtained one and my
parole officer—I asked him should I tell them I’m on parole, and he
said “No,” and three places I worked after I was there he called
and asked how I was doing and identified himself, which caused my
termination, and the last place I worked was a laundry. I was driving a
truck and the man told him—do you want the words he used?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. “I don’t give a damn what he is doing, he is doing a
good job.” And I have a better recommendation from him that he sent me
when I came back to Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. You said something about turning yourself in?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir; my parole was revoked in July 1955.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the reason for that?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. The reason on my revokement is “unadjustment, unable to
adjust.”
Mr. HUBERT. That was done in Texas or Colorado?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. It was done in Colorado—in Denver, and in August 1955,
I left Denver, Colo., and drove home and said goodbye to Mother and Dad
and drove down to Huntsville—in fact, my Dad drove down to Huntsville
with me.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you found out that the Colorado people
had in effect recommended the revocation or revoked your parole, you
knew that you would be eventually sought?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Or just sent back.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you just bypassed that and drove yourself into
Huntsville?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I went to Austin first to the parole board and they
said, “We have already reviewed your case and formulated an opinion.
You are going back.” And I said, “Well, I’m not going back today. I’ll
go back tomorrow,” and I went back the following day and turned myself
in.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. From August 1955 until April 1956, and I was discharged
in April 1956.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you discharged completely?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Completely.
Mr. HUBERT. Or on conditions?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Completely.
Mr. HUBERT. Completely?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No conditions whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. No conditions at all. Have you had any difficulty since
then?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Do you want the FBI fingerprint record for the time
I have been picked up? I have been picked up six or seven times for
investigation. I was picked up in Arizona for investigation, I was
picked up in Florida for investigation. I got low on money—I wrote some
hot checks in 1957 in Arlington, Va., and I paid them off and that was
my latest.
Mr. HUBERT. You were not charged?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes: in Arlington, Va., in 1957, I got 6 months.
Mr. HUBERT. And did you serve any part of that time?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And how much?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Five months—four months.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you were discharged from that without condition?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—without condition. That was in a county jail. I was
a trustee—I was head cook.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, have you had any other convictions since then?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Since then—no, sir; one felony and one misdemeanor.
Mr. HUBERT. And that’s the two you have already told us about?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. When you were 19 and the other one in 1957?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was charged—excuse me—I was picked up in January or
February 1958 and returned to Arlington, Va., and I was released at
Arlington, Va., in August 1958.
Mr. HUBERT. Since August 1958, you have had no trouble with the law?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Other than the fact that I—of being picked up for
investigation.
Mr. HUBERT. But you had no convictions?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. None.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever charged at all—formally, I mean, by actual
indictment?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No—no indictments.
Mr. HUBERT. You are not under any charge right now?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you are married; when were you married?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I got married in 1961.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you support yourself between July 1963, and January
1964, when you were unemployed?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. My wife was working—my wife was working and I lived
with her and my mother.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you attempt to get work?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—that’s one reason I left Dallas. The person who
is division manager of Great Books that terminated me, falsified—the
reason I was terminated, he accused me of something I did not do, and
I couldn’t prove it. It was my word against his. I couldn’t prove it,
and in January I had a chance to go to Houston to work for Great Books
and I went there and I tried to use the name of Robert Field—I had made
man-of-the-month for the Great Books organization of the whole United
States, and my picture was in their magazine called the Phenix. And the
division manager in Houston recognized me and checked it out and then 2
weeks later I had requested from this gentleman here about three orders
for me to be paid off. He had said they did not clear, that there was
no money involved and 3 weeks later through my bank here in Dallas,
Bank of Services and Trust, it just so happens that the man’s name is
Charles Counter. He has his personal account there also, and I’ve got
him on two counts of forgery right now. He took my paycheck, signed my
name, and endorsed it over to him. I have the photostats from the bank
and the photostats of the canceled checks that cleared the company.
Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, the point I think you are making—that your
opportunity to get with Great Books of the Western World in Houston was
frustrated because of the fact that you had changed your name and they
found out. That is, changed your name to the extent of leaving off the
first syllable of your last name?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, and the division manager there even talked to the
president of the company and he said “No.” So, I went to work for this
bowling supply which is owned by F. M. Curtis and Mel Livingston and
I told them my past record, and Mr. Curtis is a highway patrolman, he
has an interest in the supply business and he said, “I’ll give you a
break,” and I’ve been doing real good since. He just gave me a break.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you are a professional bowler?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you competed?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; in 1960 and 1961 I did, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I bowled in the All-American here in Dallas, the
PBA tour in 1961, I bowled in the Santa Fe Open in 1961 and I bowled in
the small—when I say “small” I mean $3,000 to $5,000 total first place,
singles and doubles tournaments.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever won any prizes?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, I have won prizes but I have never won the first
place—no.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the most that you have won?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. $750.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Ardmore, Okla.
Mr. HUBERT. Ardmore, Okla.?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. 1961.
Mr. HUBERT. About what part of the year—what tournament was it?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. It’s called the Ardmore Classic. I think they run
it from about May to about August. It’s 8 games across 16 lanes,
handicapped from 2 to 10.
Mr. HUBERT. You won $750—which was not first place, but what?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. About eighth place.
Mr. HUBERT. And you won it under your name W. W. Litchfield or Bob
Litchfield?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you were living in Dallas, I take it, in the last 6
months of 1963?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I was.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you living then?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. 302 West Clarendon. I also lived at the Drexel House
Apartments.
Mr. HUBERT. Where are they located?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, me, I have forgotten the address—Henderson and Knox.
Mr. HUBERT. Who runs that?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I’ve forgotten the lady’s name that runs that.
Mr. HUBERT. Bertha Cheek.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No—she does not run it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Bertha Cheek?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what street she lives on?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I do—Bertha Cheek lives on Swiss Avenue. She owns
an apartment house on Swiss, but the Drexel House is on—right off the
corner of Knox.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever live at Bertha Cheek’s boarding house or
apartment?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Never?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Never.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you get to know her?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I met her through a fellow at the bowling alley—I don’t
remember his last name. He owns an electric company here in town, the
one that has the lighting for all the fairgrounds, Bob Sands Electric
Co.
Mr. HUBERT. And he operates the bowling alley?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; he was a bowler.
Mr. HUBERT. He was a bowler himself?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever visit at her place?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, her apartment?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, let’s see, spasmodically from September to October
and November of 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words you met her——
Mr. LITCHFIELD. In September—I’m pretty sure it was, about the latter
part of August or the first of September.
Mr. HUBERT. And you met her by simply being introduced to her by Sands
at a bowling alley?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; he told me she had planned on putting in a lounge
and Bob had given her my phone number and she called me on the pretext
that I might build it and run it for her.
Mr. HUBERT. So you went to see her then?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you went to her house?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; on Swiss.
Mr. HUBERT. You had never seen her before?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Never before that—she said she had seen me, but there
was no recollection or no introduction prior to that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what happened to the negotiations that you engaged in
with her?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. It would be that I would have had to divorce my wife
and had to have married her for any other further business to have been
transacted.
Mr. HUBERT. If I’m not mistaken, isn’t she an older woman than you are
a man?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe she is—she’s 30-something or 40-something.
Mr. HUBERT. And you are saying to us that she made it a condition?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. It wasn’t a verbal condition—it was a obvious
condition. It was a situation that was arising, let’s say that.
Mr. HUBERT. And you perceived that you would have to marry her if this
thing was to go forward?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. That, or divorce my wife.
Mr. HUBERT. But she did not say so?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You think she intimated it?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Let’s say, from my past experience and knowledge
of—worldly knowledge—I would assume this, that’s being kind of tactful.
Mr. HUBERT. I was wondering if you could point to any events, since you
can’t point to any words that gave you that impression?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Without being too personal or intimate on my own
actions or any actions other than hers, no; and I don’t care to be.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Did you know Jack Ruby?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; I knew Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you meet him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Jack used to own the Vegas Club and I used to go there
quite a bit.
Mr. HUBERT. How do—how long do you suppose it is that you have known
Jack?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, I would say from 1959—October, roughly.
Mr. HUBERT. Continuously?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I will go in and say “hello” to him, see him
whenever I would go in. It wasn’t a friendship relation that I would go
out of my way to call him or see him or that he would call me. He had
no way of knowing how to call me. He knew me when he saw me and said,
“Hello, how are you?”
Mr. HUBERT. What about the Carousel Club, did you visit it?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I have been in that place twice.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us when that was?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. When I was associated with Bertha and she was thinking
of putting in a business, we looked at a whole bunch of clubs she
thought were for sale, and I knew the Vegas Club was not making any
money and I would have liked to have tried to buy it from Jack, so one
night I went down to see him—I had called and he said he would be there
about 10:30 or 11 and he got there about 11:15 or 11:30, something like
that, and I discussed the purchase of the Vegas Club and that’s when he
told me it had, I think, $40,000 worth of Federal liens or something
against it which still had it, and he tried to sell me the Carousel and
I wouldn’t attempt to put in a private club in downtown Dallas; I was
thinking of making the Vegas a private club by remodeling it.
Mr. HUBERT. But what you wanted to put in was a private club, not an
open or public club like the Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. That’s right—a private club.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was your opinion that the Carousel was not the
proper place for a private club?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right—any downtown location. You see, I cannot obtain
an open—let’s say a beer license because of my record with the city
of Dallas, but I can obtain a private club license from the State of
Texas, even though I have a record. I talked to Buddy Mills on the
liquor board and he said, “If you haven’t done anything in 3 to 5
years—no conviction or anything,” you can.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the first time you were in the Carousel and you
were there with Cheek?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; I was not. I was alone. That was the second time I
had been in there. I had been in there one other time—I just went in to
see what it was—I didn’t speak to anybody at all that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us the date of the second time that you did
speak to him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think right around the middle of October—the second
week or the third week, somewhere along in there—the exact date—no; I
cannot.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that at the time—or you said once before
in your statement—at the time you were there there were some people
taking pictures of the club?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. There were some fellows—you see, when I walked in Jack
wasn’t there and I told the doorman, whom I found out later was his
roommate—I don’t remember the man’s name, that I was to see Jack on
business and he said he wasn’t there, and so I sat down and had some
coffee and watched the bumps and what have you, and after Jack came in,
then he had to see two or three people before me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you happen to mention to the doorman or anybody else
around there that you were from California?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You did so?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you tell that to, do you remember?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. The doorman and some other fellow that was sitting
there. He asked me where I was from and I said, “California and
Phoenix”—is all I said. I didn’t think it was any of his business who I
was.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the name of the other man, other than the
doorman to whom you said that?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No—he was a little short fellow, I would say late
forties or maybe even middle fifties. If I remember right he had kind
of a silver hairline—I don’t remember—whether he was kind of bald in
the center or not, I know it was receding, and he had an appearance of
being of Jewish descent.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you might recognize his name?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I doubt it, because when he was introduced to me I
didn’t pay that much attention to it—no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Who introduced you?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. The doorman. They were sitting there together drinking
a Seven-Up or a Sprite.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, so, you just stayed and waited for Jack?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you have to wait?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think—30 or 45 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. And Jack came in?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. The dog first, then him.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, did he see you right away?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, he walked by me because I was sitting right by the
door and he turned and said something to the doorman first and then I
think he went on back and put his hat up and came back to the doorman,
and that’s when the doorman pointed me out—he walked over and said—just
a moment—he had two or three other fellows to see him—I was sitting by
the door—have you ever been in the Carousel?
Mr. HUBERT. No, sir.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I was sitting by the door like this, as you are
walking in you have to turn left. There is an aisle and there was a
fellow sitting back here by the pole with the light switches on it
and there was a fellow sitting in front of me, and then there was
the photographer who was there. I didn’t meet the photographer until
after I had been introduced to Jack and Jack introduced me to him—some
magazine for strippers like Male or Stag type magazine and he was
taking pictures and he had to get releases from the strippers—some
kind of a release they would have to sign so that he could take their
pictures.
Mr. HUBERT. You saw him getting the releases from the people?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I saw how he came in and he had the releases in
his hand. He said he had to get all of the girls to sign them and he
said all of them would sign them except one.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was when you were talking to Jack in his office?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. In his office.
Mr. HUBERT. The photographer came in and said that he had some papers
in his hand which you understood to be releases?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, he said he had the releases and had to go out and
get them signed, and then he came back again and said all except one
was signed.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was on that occasion that you talked to Jack about
buying the Vegas?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he counteroffered by suggesting that you buy the
Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand that that was the last time you saw Jack
that night?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. It was until I saw him on television—I happened to be
playing poker then.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you fix the time of that occasion with reference to
particularly the death of the President, about how long before?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, like I said, it was probably the middle of
October.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it was about a month and a little bit before
the death of the President?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. He was killed the last half of November—maybe 5 weeks
or 6 weeks—it was about the middle of October.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have previously stated that you saw a man in
there on this occasion who you thought was Oswald?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I did—in fact, I made the statement, as I was saying a
while ago, when I was playing poker—a bunch of fellows from the bowling
alley—we usually play on Saturday night. We started about 9:30 and
the game continued all through the night—one of those $2 limit games
and we were still playing Sunday, and the fellow’s wife had carried
the children to church and come back and said something about Ruby
had shot Oswald on television. No, excuse me, “Had shot him.” She had
heard it on the radio, and so we turned on the television and they were
rerunning all of this and a big hullabaloo over it and that was the
next time I saw Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. And did you make any comment at that time that you had seen
Oswald in the Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I had seen Oswald on television before. I said, “That
guy looks familiar,” and a few of the fellows were around, and I don’t
remember where I said it there at the poker game, but somebody said,
“I think I’ve seen that Oswald around somewhere,” and I made the
statement, “Yes, I think I have seen him too,” and that was the extent
of it. Nothing more was said.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that statement you made that you had seen Oswald around
somewhere, was it made before Oswald was shot?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you repeat it thereafter?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I did to a friend of mine who is on the vice squad here
in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. And what is his name?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Donald Green.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you tell him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, it was the day preceding the day that I went
down—I think I went down on a Monday to the police station to talk
to the FBI agents and everybody, so I must have talked to Don on the
Sunday night preceding that or on Saturday. I called him on the phone
and I told him, “I think I have seen that man with Jack up at the
Carousel.” I said, “I don’t know, but I’m pretty darn sure I have.” And
he made some calls and called me back and said the police department
right now wants to talk to me, and he met me—I believe it was Monday,
I’m pretty sure it was a Monday, he met me Monday morning about 9:15
or 9:30 at the coffee shop of the Statler and we walked on up to the
police station.
Mr. HUBERT. And you made a statement of that?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And subsequently that same day you made a statement to the
FBI?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Two FBI agents.
Mr. HUBERT. I think they asked you to take a polygraph test too?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. And the tests showed that I hadn’t seen him because
when the man giving it asked me, “Have you definitely seen him,” and I
said, “Yes,” and it showed that I hadn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he told you the results of the test?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, he didn’t tell me the results of the test, but
Donald did—he didn’t tell me—he didn’t come right out and say, “No,”
but it was obvious. They had me pick Oswald’s picture out of a bunch
of police photographs, and anybody on the street could pick that man’s
picture out. That doesn’t mean I have seen him—I told them that—I said,
“Heck, anybody walking can pick his picture out.”
Mr. HUBERT. And you had observed to someone prior to the shooting of
Oswald that you thought you had seen Oswald somewhere?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Who were the people that you were—that you observed that to?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Let me understand your question—whom did I say this to?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I mentioned it like I said, there at the poker game.
Mr. HUBERT. This was the same poker game that went on into Sunday the
24th?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Was that the day that Oswald was killed?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—that would be it. From Saturday the 23d to Sunday
the 24th—I made it then, and—
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make it after Oswald was shot at that same poker
game?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. That’s when I made it. We was watching it on
television—the rerun of it.
Mr. HUBERT. I had understood you to say that you had said you thought
you had seen Oswald somewhere, and that you made that statement prior
to the time that Oswald was shot?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I made it once but like I said, I don’t remember who I
made it to.
Mr. HUBERT. It was not at the poker game?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No—the statement at the poker game—we were watching it
on television and it showed everything there and someone says, “I think
I’ve seen that fellow,” and I said, “Yes; I think I’ve seen him too.”
That was the second time I had said it—before when his picture came out
and everything, I said, “I think I have seen him,” but I don’t remember
where I was when I said it.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did your poker game begin?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Oh, Saturday night about 9 or 9:30.
Mr. HUBERT. And went on until——
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Into Sunday and until about 6:30.
Mr. HUBERT. In the afternoon?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So that the first time you made the observation that you
thought you had seen Oswald somewhere must have been before the poker
game began?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—it was.
Mr. HUBERT. So that would be before 9 o’clock on Saturday?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes—it was. It was right after the assassination—they
were showing all the films and the capture of Oswald, etc., and when I
was watching television, I don’t remember where I was, I said, “I think
I’ve seen him.” And people sitting around me said, “He looks familiar,”
and I made the statement, “I think I have seen him.”
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when Oswald was shot and you made the statement again
that you had thought you had seen Oswald, did you say anything that
would indicate that you had seen him, Oswald, at Ruby’s place?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; I just said, “I think I’ve seen him too,” I forgot
who it was I said that to, but the guy said. “I think I have seen him
or I think I know that guy,” and I just said, “Yes; I think I have seen
him, too.”
Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that—then that it might have been that
you had seen him at Ruby’s place?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I started trying to remember—everybody was sitting
around and saying, “Where have you seen him?” Trying to think, and I
thought about it and I remembered seeing a man similar to him, very
similar to him at the Carousel that night I was there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that to anybody?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Just Don Green when I called him on the phone and then
when I went down to the police department.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that to any of the people you were playing
poker with?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you give us the names of the people you were playing
poker with, whose house was it at, first?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. J. W. Grubbs [spelling] G-r-u-b-b-s.
Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Boy, I can’t tell you that—I can tell you how to go
there, but I don’t remember what street it is. You go out Beckley past
the A. Harris shopping center—I don’t remember the name of the street,
you turn left and then you went down a couple of blocks and you turn
left again—there were three cars of us and I followed. I don’t remember
the name of the street.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us the names of some of the other people at
the poker game?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. J. W. Grubbs and there was Ernie Stoy [spelling]
E-r-n-i-e and S-t-o-y, and one fellow I just met, he just came in—I
didn’t know, and another fellow, gee, I sure wish I could remember his
name. I know him when I see him—they are always at the bowling alley,
he usually bets on the pot games, and he is a big heavy set black
headed fellow and Max Lewis was there.
Mr. HUBERT. [Spelling.] L-e-w-i-s?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes [spelling], L-e-w-i-s, and I think there was one
more—I don’t remember who that was.
Mr. HUBERT. They were all there throughout the game—were they all there
throughout the game?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Max left Sunday morning and then returned.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the time it became known that Ruby had shot Oswald,
did you observe to anyone that you knew Ruby?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe I did. I think everybody was saying whether
they knew him or not and I believe I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone else there know him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think one or two others might have said that they
knew him.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Grubbs knew him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Who said they knew him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I could assume, but I don’t remember who said that they
knew him.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you did not at that time say that you thought
you had seen Oswald in the Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; I just said that—you are getting mixed up. I
said—when it became obvious that Ruby had shot him, we were watching
it on television, and we were, you know, how you are talking, “I think
I know him,” and I said, “I’m pretty sure I know Jack Ruby,” and I
said, “What is that idiot doing now?” Or something like that, and I
forgot that someone said, “That Oswald, I think I’ve seen him somewhere
before,” and that’s when I said it.
Mr. HUBERT. You said the same thing, “I think I’ve seen him?”
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When was it you began to associate Oswald as a man that
you had seen somewhere before—and as also the man you had seen in Jack
Ruby’s club the last time you were there?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe it was that day—not that I was associating
necessarily it with Ruby—it was that everybody all of a sudden had seen
him and they were trying to think where they had seen him and I was
trying to remember where I had seen him.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, my point is that you ultimately came to tell Jack
Green——
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Don Green.
Mr. HUBERT. Don Green, that you thought you had seen him at the
Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. When did that firm up in your mind, because from what I
gather it was not firmed in your mind where you had seen him, on the
Sunday when you were playing poker, isn’t that right?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Correct. I wasn’t positive then, no, where I had seen
him.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you become positive that you had seen him at the
Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I was thinking about it during the week, on
Thursday or Friday, and it dawned on me that that looked like the
fellow that I had seen in the Carousel.
There was another fellow up there that I had never seen before and made
a heck of an impression on me—he was about twice my size, a real flashy
dresser, white on white shirt and his suit was a very flashy type,
and he had just gotten married, but he, himself, made a heck of an
impression on me, the way he was dressed and his size, and this fellow
that I had seen in the Carousel made a heck of an impression on me the
way he was dressed—he was dressed sloppy—in a sloppy shirt and kind
of a gray khaki-type pants. I thought, “What is this idiot doing up
here?” You know, because it is known that the Carousel is a clip joint
and you’ve got to be an idiot to go in there in the first place, or a
tourist, one of the two, and I just ran—I guess you would just say that
it came into my mind that that looked like the fellow I had seen. I was
associating the sloppy dress with him because he was dressed sloppy on
television and when you see it repeatedly and repeatedly—you remember
it.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how you think the man might have been Oswald that
you saw in the Carousel was dressed on the occasion you saw him, which
was the last time you saw Ruby?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. He had on a white sweater and kind of a T-shirt-type
sweater, and a pair of, I guess they were gray khakis or they might
have been gabardine, there was no crease in them and they were real
sloppy and his hair wasn’t combed, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t talk to him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, I didn’t talk to anybody while I was there other
than Jack and I did meet that photographer—I don’t remember his name.
Jack introduced me, and I did meet that great big guy. He came back
into the office—he did once while I was in there with Jack and he
had just gotten married to some girl from Galveston and they were
celebrating their honeymoon and I was thinking, “You’ve got to be a nut
to come to a place like this to celebrate a honeymoon.”
Mr. HUBERT. When you came out of Jack’s office, did you see this man
that you think might be Oswald in there still?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. When you come out of his office, you can’t see
nothing—you walk down the hall and turn left and then you are back in
the club part of it—the Carousel.
Now, when I came back in the club part, the man that I thought was
Oswald had already seen Jack—I was the last one to see him—I don’t
think there were more than two or three people left in the club—this
big heavy-set fellow and his wife were still there.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this man you thought was Oswald was waiting
to see Jack?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he was ahead of you?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you had an opportunity to observe him then as the man
who got to see Jack before you did?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he there before you got there?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And was sitting down at the table?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he drinking something?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I don’t remember if he had something or not. He was in
front of me and all I could see was his back at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever get a look at his face?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. When he left he had to walk right by me. The door is
not more than—it’s one of these partition-type doors and it is not
more than 5 feet or 4 feet wide, and the table I was sitting at—I was
sitting at the edge of the door. I couldn’t help but see him when he
walked along there.
Mr. HUBERT. How long was he in with Jack?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No more than 10 or 15 or 20 minutes, maybe, at the most.
Mr. HUBERT. And when he came out you went in Jack’s office?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; you see, Jack’s office is back, in the back and you
got to walk down two halls and Jack came out and got me. This fellow
came out and then Jack came out and got me and I went back there with
him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe what this fellow you thought might be
Oswald did at that time?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. He went on out the door.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him again?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; not until I saw him on television—and I thought it
was the same one.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, that impression got firmer and firmer in your mind, as
I gather it, as the week went on?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. After that Sunday television seeing Jack shoot him
there; yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But when you told Don Green your impression, it was not the
same day, was it?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; it was a week later.
Mr. HUBERT. It was actually the Sunday later?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe it was Saturday or Sunday.
Mr. HUBERT. And the impression began to grow on you more and more that
it might well be the same man?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And as a matter of fact, as I understand you, it grew so
much that you thought you should tell someone about it?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I called Don and asked him what he thought I should do.
Mr. HUBERT. And he suggested coming to the office and I think you have
told us about that.
Was there another man around there you heard had come from California?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. There was somebody waiting to see Jack, like I said,
that was sitting—there was a aisle going straight and you got to turn
left—back by the pole where the light switches are, and he was waiting
to see him and I believe he said he was from California and he was in
his middle thirties, a black-headed fellow. I never met the man and he
saw Jack and he was still there when I left.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. This fellow we are speaking of now.
Mr. HUBERT. From California, you mean?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I think he said he was from California. I think when I
came in the doorman said, “Well, there are two other people here and
the photographer to see him ahead of you,” when I first came in, and he
said, “He’s late now, but you can have a seat and wait if you want to.”
And the two other people were the fellow whom I assumed that looked
like this Oswald, and this fellow, I believe that said he was from
California and the photographer—were the three people in front of me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see the man who said he was from California talk to
the man you think was Oswald?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You had never seen Oswald before?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; never had.
Mr. HUBERT. You were shown pictures of Oswald, is that right?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was shown a police photograph of him, front and side
view, with three others.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your impression at that time as to whether Oswald
was the man you had seen in the Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I wasn’t asked my impression at that time—all I was
asked is, “Pick out Oswald,” and I said, “There he is, anybody walking
in Dallas could do it.”
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose in having you pick out Oswald?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I would imagine the police department wanted to know if
I really knew him or really had seen someone like him.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, when you picked out Oswald, were you simply picking
out Oswald because you had seen his picture on television, or were you
picking him out because he was the man you thought you had seen in the
Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. When I picked out his picture, I was picking it out
because I had seen it on television so many times.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, the police wouldn’t ask you to pick out Oswald’s
picture unless there was some reason for your specific identification
of Oswald.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well——
Mr. HUBERT. You had called Green, from what you tell me, to tell him
that you thought that you had seen a man who looked like Oswald at the
Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t that the reason why they were asking you to pick out
the man that you had seen at the Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I would assume—I don’t know. I wouldn’t know their
reasoning behind it. I would assume this would be it, but when I picked
him out, I told them at the time, I made the statement, “Anybody in
Dallas could pick him out—he was on the TV so much.”
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever tell them that the man I now know is Oswald
from the films and that I am now picking him out is also the man that I
saw at the Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I did.
Mr. HUBERT. You told them that?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you believe that to be true?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I thought it was until they convinced me I was wrong.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you think about it now?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I said, “It sure as heck looked like him,” that’s all I
can say now. Of course, I don’t want to say I’m definitely positive it
is—I said, “It’s a heck of a close resemblance.”
Mr. HUBERT. That’s your testimony right now, that as far as the man
you saw and have described—sloppy clothes, white jacket—T-shirt
type—go in and see Ruby before you on an occasion approximately 5
weeks before the assassination of the President, that that man and the
Oswald photographs later shown you, you think that they bore a close
resemblance?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; they do—they bear a resemblance.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather that you were more positive of the identity of
Oswald as being the man in the Carousel on the occasion we have been
speaking about at one time than you are now?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I was; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What has caused your opinion in the matter to weaken?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. The fact that they gave me the polygraphic test, that
showed when they asked me—was it definitely him, it didn’t show up
right, and the fact that I had told Don when I called him, I said, “It
sure as heck looks like him,” and when the police were questioning me,
they said, “Are you positive, are you positive, are you positive?”
I said, “It looks like him, it looks like him, it looks like him.” And
they come back, “Are you positive, are you positive?” And then the fact
that when the Federal agents talked to me, they said, “You know, if you
say you are positive and it wasn’t him,” it’s a Federal charge, and I
said, “Well, I’m not that positive.”
Mr. HUBERT. The Federal agent told you if you gave an opinion——
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; they said, “If you give false information as to an
exact statement—” not an opinion, but if I say I’m positive, that’s a
statement.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you conveying to me that you really were
positive, but that——
Mr. LITCHFIELD. In my mind.
Mr. HUBERT. You were scared off of it?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; no, sir. I said in my mind I was positive that
it looked like him, but I’m just as fallible as anybody else. I could
be 100 percent wrong. I said, “In my mind, the man that I saw looked
just like him,” but then again, I can’t say 100 percent.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is still your opinion?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I said it bears a close resemblance, but not having
come in contact with Oswald at all or having never met him or anything,
and just seeing him for a fleeting glance, the back of his head and
when he walked by me; no, I can’t be 100 percent pure positive.
Mr. HUBERT. But you knew all of that the first time you told it to
Green?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, like I said, “It sure does look like him—the man
I saw there sure does look like Oswald,” those are my words.
Mr. HUBERT. But, what has caused you to weaken in your opinion it was
Oswald, as you tell it to me, is the fact that you got the impression
that if you gave a positive identification and it proved to be false,
that it would be a Federal offense, is that correct?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes; they said, giving false information to the FBI,
and I’m not 100 percent pure positive. I say, “It bears a close
resemblance,” and this is all I can say.
Mr. HUBERT. And that’s all you did tell them?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir; that’s the statement I signed.
Now, the big heavy-set fellow that I met, I shook hands with, made an
impression on me. I was as close to him as I am to you now, or closer.
I shook hands with him, and I saw him more than for a fleeting moment.
Mr. HUBERT. I want to show you a picture and ask you if you can see any
resemblance between the picture I am going to show you and the man you
thought might be Oswald—this picture I am going to show you, the man is
dressed up, but if you can use your imagination to see if there is any
resemblance?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. To see if there is any resemblance?
Mr. HUBERT. To see if there is any resemblance in the face, at least,
and the hair, and so forth?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; Oswald’s hair isn’t that thick in the center.
Mr. HUBERT. I’m not talking about Oswald, I’m talking about the man you
saw at the club you thought might be Oswald.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; there is no resemblance.
Mr. HUBERT. There is no resemblance?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the picture that I have shown
to the witness has been identified as Exhibit 5302 in the deposition
of Andrew Armstrong. Do you know Captain Fritz of the Dallas Police
Department?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had difficulties with him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Once.
Mr. HUBERT. In what regard?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. He sent two men to the place that I was working and
had them pick me up for investigation without a warrant, bodily remove
me out of my office, and held me on robbery by firearms, which I
couldn’t have a writ of habeas corpus that night, or something, I had
to go before a judge or something, and I didn’t get out until the next
morning, and he didn’t even appear at the hearing.
Mr. HUBERT. How long ago was that?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. That was in—I think it was March or April of 1961, I
believe.
Mr. HUBERT. You haven’t seen him since?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, when I had to go down to the police station, I
did.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean the next morning?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No; when I had to go down for questioning. No, he
didn’t even show up at the hearing there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Jess Willard Lynch
[spelling] J-e-s-s W-i-l-l-a-r-d L-y-n-c-h?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I don’t think so—the name doesn’t sound familiar. I
know a Lynch, but Jess Willard Lynch?
Mr. HUBERT. What Lynch do you know?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I know a Donald Lynch from school.
Mr. HUBERT. Is he in Dallas?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. How long has it been since you have seen him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. High school.
Mr. HUBERT. I see—that is to say about 10 or 12 years ago?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Roughly—that name doesn’t sound familiar.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a person by the name of Earlene Roberts?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Earlene Roberts—I don’t remember whether I know her or
not. Closely, I don’t—I could have dated her or seen her, but closely,
I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. I’ll put it this way, when I mention the name of Earlene
Roberts, do you associate it with anybody you know?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I used to go out quite a bit in my life, and I
went with a number of people, and I was thinking that I dated one time
a girl named Earlene, but I don’t remember her last name—that’s why I
stopped and hesitated.
Mr. HUBERT. And that’s the person whose image came to your mind when I
mentioned Earlene Roberts?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know that Earlene Roberts, that I am talking about,
is the sister of Bertha Cheek?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. If she’s her sister, I was trying to think if I ever
met Bertha’s sister. I talked to her on the phone once. Bertha told me
she had two sisters, I believe, wait a minute—Earlene Roberts is the
one that lives in California, I believe, I believe it is, and Bertha
went out to see her, maybe, when Bertha went out to California 4 or
5 days on some business, and then I was helping her remodel the home
over there and painting then, and I think I had to call her and I think
Earlene Roberts was the person I called in California, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. You called the person in California for Cheek?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. To talk to Bertha when she was out there.
Mr. HUBERT. That was when?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Maybe October—maybe November.
Mr. HUBERT. It was after you were negotiating with her?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, but I don’t remember the exact date. I knew that
name sounded real familiar.
Mr. HUBERT. Bill DeMar, or have you heard of him?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. You will have to associate it with something for me.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, he was an MC at Jack’s Carousel Club.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Well, I don’t know that man. I saw him—he did a song
or something while I was there, but I don’t know him, if that’s who it
is—I don’t know him.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the story in the Press after Ruby shot
Oswald that he said that he had seen him at the Carousel?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. I never knew of that—I never knew that.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you been interviewed by anybody of the Commission’s
staff other than myself?
Mr. LITCHFIELD. No, sir; the only people I have talked to is the Dallas
Police Force and to two FBI agents, and I didn’t have any knowledge
that you would talk to me until yesterday. They called long distance
for me and he called me this morning—I bowl in a scratch league on
Thursday night and he told me I had to be here at room 301 at 3 p.m.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, we pushed it up a little bit for you.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Yes, Mr. Sorrels called me this morning and asked me if
I could make it earlier, and I said “I will leave on the flight 11:45
and I am booked definite at 5:15 going back and on a standby on this
one here.”
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you can make the 5:15 now, because you are through
right now.
Mr. LITCHFIELD. Thank you very much. I enjoyed it. I will get to see my
wife for a while.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much.
TESTIMONY OF ALICE REAVES NICHOLS
The testimony of Mrs. Alice Reaves Nichols was taken at 2:15 p.m., on
April 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W.
Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record that Mrs. Alice Reaves Nichols
is present, and before we began anything, she walked into the room
and she asked me if it would be possible to withhold her name from
the press. I told her I would check. I have talked with Mr. Hubert
of our office, to find out what the policy has been in the past, and
he assured me that in the past we have, on the request of witnesses,
not released the name to the press. I stated previously that all we
have ever released is the name. We have never discussed and will not
discuss with the press any testimony. However, we can’t give you any
assurance that they won’t find out you were here. For example, there
are newspaper reporters all over this building, and I don’t recognize
them and perhaps you will, and perhaps they might recognize you or try
to find out, if they don’t recognize you, who you are. Unfortunately,
anything they can learn about what goes on is something that they want
to print, so we can’t assure you that the name won’t go out, but we can
assure you it won’t get out from anything we do. I am sorry we can’t
give you any more protection than that.
Mrs. NICHOLS. I appreciate that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself. I am Burt Griffin, and I am a
special consultant to the General Counsel’s staff of the President’s
Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.
This Commission has been set up under a couple of governmental acts,
one of which is an Executive order issued by President Johnson on
November 30, 1963, and another one from the joint resolution of
Congress. The effect of both of these acts has been to establish a
Commission with a staff which has power to subpena witnesses and take
testimony and conduct an investigation and prescribe various rules and
procedures, and we are operating under these rules of procedure.
I might explain that under the rules of the Commission I have been
specifically designated to come here and talk to you and take your
deposition. Now the purpose of this deposition is to inquire into
all of the facts and evaluate the facts and report back to President
Johnson on the facts that have to do with the death of President
Kennedy and the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. In your particular case,
Mrs. Nichols, you have known Jack Ruby for many years, and you have
been good enough to tell the FBI at some length what you knew about
him. We want now to see if there is any more that can be added by
this type of questioning. But we are also interested, I might add, in
anything you might know that might have any significance to the whole
investigation we are conducting.
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you got a letter from the Commission asking you
to appear?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I did. I had a telephone call first.
Mr. GRIFFIN. From Mr. Sorrels of the Secret Service?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; it wasn’t Mr. Sorrels. I believe the man said his
name was Howell.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Howlett?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you receive your letter?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I received a letter last Friday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I might also say, I don’t want to scare you by saying
this, because we say it to everybody, that you are entitled under the
rules of the Commission to appear here with an attorney if you so
desire, and it is not unusual that people do that. But I see that you
don’t have an attorney here, and I take it that you don’t desire one.
Mrs. NICHOLS. I didn’t think it was necessary.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Most people do feel that way. It is an expense, for one
thing.
Mrs. NICHOLS. I know several attorneys here, but I didn’t think it was
necessary.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I don’t think anything will come up in the course of
your deposition that should make you feel you want an attorney. But I
always want to make clear that at any time throughout your deposition
you are free to stop the thing.
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We try to be pretty nice, and I don’t think we will have
too many difficulties. Let me ask you then if you have any questions
about the deposition that is to be taken, before I ask you to raise
your hand and be sworn? Anything that you think you would want to know?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I don’t know of anything.
Mrs. GRIFFIN. All right, would you raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give the court reporter your full name.
Mrs. NICHOLS. Alice Reaves Nichols.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Mrs. Nichols?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your maiden name?
Mrs. NICHOLS. My maiden name was Small: Alice Reaves Small.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live right now?
Mrs. NICHOLS. 8707 Redondo.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I hate to ask embarrassing questions of women, but could
you tell us when you were born?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. February the 1st, 1915.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you lived in Dallas all your life?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I lived away from Dallas. I was born and raised here, but
I lived away about 7 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mrs. NICHOLS. From 1937 to about 1944.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I am.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Southland Life Insurance Co.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you do there?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I am a secretary.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you work for anyone in particular?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I am secretary to the vice president and treasurer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is his name?
Mrs. NICHOLS. John E. Mangrum.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I want to ask you if you will hand me those two
documents that you have there?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to mark them and ask you some questions in
connections with them. I want to hand you what I have marked as
“Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1964, Alice R. Nichols’ Exhibit 5355.” This
document consists of a number of pages starting with the No. 283, at
the bottom, going through page 291.
It purports to be a copy of a report of an interview that you had with
two FBI Agents, Mr. Albert Sayres and Mr. Paul Scott on November 25,
1963. I am going to hand it to you and ask you if you had a chance to
read that over before the deposition started?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is there anything in there that you feel is not
accurate, an accurate report of what you told the FBI on that day? I am
not referring to whether or not you, after thinking about it, that you
make some changes, but whether you noticed anything in there that does
not accurately reflect what you said at that time, and if so, whether
you want to make some changes in it?
Mrs. NICHOLS. There are a few things in here that I notice that are not
exactly right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, let me ask you if you would refer to the page
on which the mistaken material appears, and if you would read the
material that is mistaken and then we will talk about it.
Mrs. NICHOLS. I may have said it as it is here, but I know that I said
that I didn’t think that Joe Bonds had an interest in the Vegas Club.
But after thinking it over, I believe that he had for a short time an
interest with Jack Ruby. But I believe that at this time that I talked
with the FBI men, I had forgotten about that. But since thinking it
over——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you pick out of there what page that appears on?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Let me put on my glasses. [Looks through document.]
Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe I can find it for you.
Mrs. NICHOLS. I read it in there. It is in there some place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This would be on page 284. Let me read the language to
you, and you can tell me if that is what you had reference to.
The paragraph at the top of the page which reads: “During the time she
was associated with Jack Ruby, Ruby was friendly with one Joe Bond when
he operated the club on West Commerce Street in Dallas, Texas. She did
not believe that Ruby and Bond were ever associated in any business.”
Mrs. NICHOLS. That is it. Yes; that’s right, I believe for a short time
that Joe Bond had an interest in the Vegas Club with Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now has something happened since this interview, the
original interview that you had with the FBI that made you remember
that or think that Joe did have some business interest in the Vegas?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I have just thought over the questions that they asked
me, and I recall that I believe that he did. I have been thinking it
over.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think that he did have?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I think that Jack Ruby told me himself that Joe
Bond had an interest.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am trying to get at here is, is there anything in
particular that made you remember this?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; nothing in particular.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else in this interview of November 25,
that you think ought to be changed or corrected?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now let me hand you what is marked for the purpose of
identification as Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1964, Alice R. Nichols’
Exhibit 5356. This document consists of two pages, and it purports to
be a copy of an interview that you had with another FBI Agent, Mr.
Albert Sayres. I guess you talked with Sayers on the 25th, also, but
this interview was on January 18, 1964. Have you had a chance to read
that over?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. I have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions or corrections you would make in
that?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; that is correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I want to go back, and I am going to ask you some
questions that are, some of which are biographical and some have to do
with Jack Ruby, and some helter-skelter. When did your husband die?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I was divorced in 1947, but he didn’t die until
1961.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do for a living?
Mrs. NICHOLS. While we were married, he was with Commercial Standard
Insurance Co.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that here in Dallas?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do after your divorce?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I didn’t talk to him very often. He went into the
insurance adjusting business, his own business for a while. Then I
understand at the time of his death he was in the jewelry business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is a Nichols’ Garage here in town. Is that any
relationship to your husband?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; it is not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe also that the building that Jack had the
Carousel Club in is owned by the Nichols’ family or by the Nichols’
estate.
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; I have heard that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that any relationship to your husband?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; there is no relationship.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to meet Jack Ruby?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I first saw him in a grocery store.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?
Mrs. NICHOLS. It was close to his Silver Spur nightclub, there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. South Ervay Street?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. I was in a grocery store.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living in that general area?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No. My mother lived close by.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you never met him before?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack come up and talk to you?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t. I had my daughter with me, and later on
when I was waiting for the bus to go home, he saw me standing on the
corner and he came over and introduced himself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About when was that?
Mrs. NICHOLS. That was the early part of 1949. I don’t know the exact
date.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think in your earlier interview with Agent Sayres on the
25th, you indicated that you thought you had met him in about 1948.
Have you had a chance to think since then so that your feeling now is
that it was 1949?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember. I started going with him the latter
part of 1949, and I don’t remember the exact date. It was several
months after I first saw him before I ever went with him. I would say
it was 1948, winter of 1948 and 1949, somewhere in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, is there anything by which you place it? You mean
that would have been late 1948, or early 1949?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember the month.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular way that you place it at that period?
Anything in your life that is significant that would place it in late
1948?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I can’t remember whether the weather was cold or what
I had on; whether I was wearing a coat.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean the particular year. Anything happen during the
year 1948 that sticks out in your mind so that you could date your
meeting Ruby in relationship to that event?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I can’t remember exactly when I first met him, first
saw him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old is your daughter?
Mrs. NICHOLS. My daughter is 25.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So if it were 1948, she would have been about 9 years old?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; that’s right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you started to date Jack, how often did you see Jack?
Mrs. NICHOLS. It’s been so long ago. I think at first I probably saw
him about once a week, and then later on in the year or so, I would say
about twice a week, was about the most I ever saw him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack the kind of man that had any family interests or
seemed to show any interest in settling down?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, in settling down?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; in getting married and raising a family and leading a
conventional kind of married life?
Mrs. NICHOLS. He talked about it some for a period of time. Not all the
time I was going with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you describe Jack in terms of his impressions
and what he would look forward to and the kind of things he liked?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I think that Jack had a lot of drive. He was
ambitious. He was always looking for some way to make money, some
extra way to make money.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything in particular that attracted you to
Jack? Made Jack attractive to you? Any particular quality about him?
Mrs. NICHOLS. He was very nice to me. He always treated me with respect.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack, was he the kind of person that would unburden
himself to you with his personal problems and background?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he talked to me about some of his problems. I don’t
know that he talked to me about all of them, but he did discuss some of
his problems with me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of problems did he seem to have?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, his business problems. When he lost the Bob Wills
Ranch House, he discussed that with me. He was very upset about that.
He lost a lot of money in that deal. He had to go back to Chicago at
that time, and he discussed his business deals with me—when he bought
the Vegas Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He didn’t seem to have any particular anxieties that he
would discuss with you? No personal problems; family problems?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, when his two brothers split up their partnership in
Chicago, he talked about that some to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he tell you about that particular problem?
Mrs. NICHOLS. He went back to Chicago that time to try to help settle
their differences.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if this was Earl and Sam?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What seemed to be the differences between the two?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I don’t know whether it was—well, I guess it was
just a financial, trying to work out. Sam sold out to Earl, and I think
it was just trying to work out a financial settlement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever indicate to you why Sam sold out to Earl?
Why Sam left the business?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I thought it was just because they weren’t getting along
together, the two brothers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever tell you why they weren’t getting along?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw Jack then on a once-a-week or twice-a-week basis
until about what, 1956 or 1957?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; and then after that I only saw him about once a
week. I saw him about once a week until the latter part of 1959, about
the latter part of November 1959.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you date that in 1959? What makes your memory
remember it as the latter part of 1959 as opposed to 1958 or 1960?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, the reason why I remember that is, I think it
was Christmastime, and we weren’t going together at Christmastime. I
remember thinking that I wouldn’t buy him a Christmas present.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he own the Carousel Club at that time?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he hadn’t taken over the Carousel Club at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you about any trips he took?
Mrs. NICHOLS. The only trips that I knew he took were a few trips to
Chicago, and I knew that he went to Havana one time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did he go to Havana?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Only once.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when that was?
Mrs. NICHOLS. That was in 1959. It was September of 1959.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you——
Mrs. NICHOLS. The first part of September.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you remember it as that?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, it seemed to me like it was around Labor Day, as I
recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how long Jack stayed in Havana?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Not exactly; but I would say he was there from a week to
10 days.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you why he went to Havana?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I thought it was a pleasure trip.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him off at the airport?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you who he was going to visit in Havana?
Mrs. NICHOLS. The only person he told me he was going to see in Havana
was a man by the name of McWillie. I don’t know if Mr. Mac was his
first name or whether McWillie was his last name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever met McWillie?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I had.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When had you met him?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I had seen him a few times. Jack had introduced me to
him. I had seen him in the Vegas Club a few times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack indicate to you what McWillie was doing in Havana?
Mrs. NICHOLS. He was managing the Tropicana Night Club, so I understood.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is this something that you actually remember yourself,
or something you know from having read about these things in the
newspaper?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I remember him telling me that he was at the
Tropicana.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack indicate whether he had any business interests
with McWillie?
Mrs. NICHOLS. He didn’t indicate that he had any business interests.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you at any other time about Cuba or
any interests he might have in Cuba?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel that Jack talked to you about all of his
enterprises; business activities?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I knew of nothing that he didn’t discuss with me. I
don’t know of any activities that he didn’t discuss.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did you feel Jack was the kind of person who might
do things that he wouldn’t discuss with people?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Discuss with people?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; with other people who weren’t involved in that
particular activity?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know. He always talked freely to me, I thought. I
never did feel that he—Jack was a big talker. He talks a lot; quite an
extrovert.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to break up with Jack?
Mrs. NICHOLS. It was a gradual thing. We had no quarrel. We just quit.
He quit calling me. We just quit going together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you indicated that Jack returned to Chicago from time
to time?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mrs. NICHOLS. That was about August 1952.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you place it in August?
Mrs. NICHOLS. As I recall, he lost Bob Wills Ranch House about April or
May 1952, and he stayed here several months, and it was around August,
I believe, when he returned to Chicago. And he stayed about 6 weeks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say he lost it, did he go into bankruptcy? Go
through some court proceedings or just sell it to somebody at a loss?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether he took bankruptcy or not. I don’t
remember. I don’t think he got anything. I don’t believe he sold it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he forced out of it by anybody?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I was under the impression that he just didn’t have the
money to continue operating. He just had to leave it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of place was this Ranch House?
Mrs. NICHOLS. It was a western type.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Restaurant?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; nightclub.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Striptease shows?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did Jack first go into the striptease business?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I was not going with Jack when he got into the
striptease business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the Silver Spur a strip joint?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Vegas Club?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I believe he did for a time have a strip, a few girls
doing the strip at the Silver Spur, but that was a very short time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this while you were dating him?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; but not—that was just for a few months. Maybe not
even that long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to start to employ them there?
Mrs. NICHOLS. How did he what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did he start to employ them there?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, his business was bad and he was just trying to find
some way to build his business up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have entertainment at the Ranch House, Bob Wills
Ranch House?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Have floor shows?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t believe he ever had a floor show. I never did see
a floor show there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a band?
Mrs. NICHOLS. He had a band.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he sold liquor?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; well, they sold beer and set-ups.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that located?
Mrs. NICHOLS. That was on Corinth and Industrial.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he operate that?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I can’t remember just when he started that. It wasn’t but
a few months. Probably, I would say about 6 months.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the Silver Spur in operation when the Ranch House was
going?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, when he sold the Ranch House, what did he do with
the Silver Spur?
Mrs. NICHOLS. He continued to operate both of them. Wait, I beg your
pardon. When he sold which one?
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Ranch House?
Mrs. NICHOLS. When he sold the Ranch House?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what happened to the Silver Spur?
Mrs. NICHOLS. He still had the Silver Spur when he sold the Ranch
House, but he sold the Silver Spur.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After he sold the Ranch House?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To whom did he sell the Silver Spur?
Mrs. NICHOLS. A man by the name of Martin Gimbel or Gimpel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after he sold the Ranch House did he sell the
Silver Spur?
Mrs. NICHOLS. It was very soon. I would say within—doesn’t seem to me
like it—seems like it was about a month after he sold the Ranch House.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know—had you met Martin Gimpel?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you known Martin Gimpel before he bought the
Silver Spur?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I met Martin Gimpel soon after I met Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Martin living in Dallas at that time?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did Martin continue to live in Dallas?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t recall how long. I don’t recall how long he lived
in Dallas. Several years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Martin married?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of. I really don’t know whether he was
married.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of man was Mr. Gimpel?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I didn’t know him too well. I talked to him a few
times, but he seemed very nice to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how he earned his living before he bought the
Silver Spur?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I know that before, he had punchboards for a while,
before it became illegal in Texas, and that is the only business that
I know of that he had. I was under the impression that he had a little
money, that he had saved a little money.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever sell punchboards in Texas?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I think you indicated to the FBI that Gimpel is dead?
Mrs. NICHOLS. That is what I heard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you hear that he died?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember. Jack Ruby called me and told me that he
had died, but I don’t know how long ago that was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he die here in Dallas?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No. I believe he said he died in Oklahoma.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As you have had a chance to sit here, Mrs. Nichols, do you
recall any better as to when it was that Gimpel died?
Mrs. NICHOLS. It is since I started going with Jack Ruby, and it was
several years ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you still going with Jack Ruby at the time he died?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I was not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were dating Jack Ruby, how often did Jack see
Mr. Gimpel?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he was usually, he helped Jack around the
nightclub, the Silver Spur and the Vegas Club, and I used to see him
when we would go in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of help would he give?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he just would sort of manage it, see that
everything was going all right. I think I had seen him use the cash
register. Just anything that was needed to be done around there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, did Jack pay him for what he did?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you mentioned in your interview with the FBI
that Jack was friendly with a man named Rocky Robinson. Do you remember
that name?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see Rocky Robinson but about twice, and then
it was when we would be some place and he would be; we would run into
him. I never did see him with Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think you indicated to the Bureau that you thought that
Jack sold the Silver Spur to Rocky Robinson?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you have also testified that you thought he sold the
Silver Spur to Martin Gimpel?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, now, he sold the Silver Spur to Martin Gimpel
first, right after he sold or right after he lost the Bob Wills Ranch
House. He sold the Silver Spur to Martin Gimpel, and he went back to
Chicago and stayed 6 weeks, and then he came back and took over the
Silver Spur again from Martin Gimpel, and then it was later on he sold
the club to Rocky Robinson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Why did Jack come back from Chicago?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he told me that he liked Dallas. He wanted to stay
here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I presume when he left, did he intend to stay in
Chicago permanently?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I think that he did plan to stay in Chicago permanently
when he left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened in Chicago that made him change his mind
after he had been there for 6 weeks?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I thought it was because Martin Gimpel didn’t want to run
the Silver Spur and Jack had a chance to buy it back, and he came back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think that Jack actually sold the Silver
Spur to Martin Gimpel?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he told me that he did. I don’t know what the
consideration was. He didn’t tell me how much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Rocky Robinson still in town?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Rocky been a friend of Jack’s before he sold the
Silver Spur to Mr. Robinson?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he become a friend of Jack’s after Jack sold the
Silver Spur to Rocky Robinson?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of. I never did see Rocky Robinson but on
about two occasions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I believe you told the FBI that you had met Jack’s
father?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you meet Mr. Rubinstein?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Where?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. NICHOLS. Jack picked me up after I left the office and took me by
to meet his father one evening. That was the only time I ever saw his
father.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did the father happen to be in Dallas?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he and one of Jack’s sisters were visiting Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When Jack sold the Silver Spur, did he also at the time he
sold the Silver Spur to Rocky Robinson, own the Vegas Club?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In late 1958 and on up to the time you stopped seeing him
in 1959 or 1960, did Jack own the Vegas Club?
Did Jack own any club in addition to the Vegas Club during this 1-year
period prior to the time you stopped seeing Jack? Did he operate any
clubs besides the Vegas Club in that year?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In that year before you stopped seeing him, did Jack ever
discuss selling the Vegas Club?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember him ever discussing selling the Vegas
Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your understanding that Jack was making a profit
off the Vegas Club?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I suppose during the time that you were dating Jack, you
met most of his friends?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Jack introduced me to a lot of people while I was going
with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet a man by the name of Dewey Groom?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; I knew him slightly. I met him. He was a bandleader
at Jack’s Silver Spur for a while.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After Jack closed the Silver Spur, did Jack continue to
see him?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see him after that. I don’t know whether Jack
did or not. Jack did see most of the nightclubs; he went around to most
of the clubs and he probably did see Dewey Groom.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you know Ralph Paul?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge, when did Jack first become friendly
with Ralph Paul?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I don’t remember. Let’s see; I don’t remember
whether—I just can’t remember exactly when I first knew Ralph Paul.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he friendly with Ralph Paul when you first started
dating Jack?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I believe I went with him for several years before
I ever heard of Ralph Paul or met him. I just don’t remember when I
met Ralph Paul. I was trying to think whether I remembered him before
Jack went back to Chicago. I believe I met him before he went back to
Chicago in 1952.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any business connections with Jack at that
time?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Jack had mentioned that Ralph Paul had loaned him money.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it, as you understand it, that Ralph first loaned
Jack money?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember exactly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Paul ever have an interest in the Vegas Club?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; he had mentioned Gordon McLendon to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were dating Jack, how often did Jack contact Mr.
Paul?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I don’t know how often he contacted him. I would
see him around the club quite frequently.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you say that Mr. Paul, during the period you were
dating Jack, was one of the more frequent visitors to the Vegas Club?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than the lending of money by Paul to Jack, do you
know of any other business relationship that Ralph Paul and Jack Ruby
had with each other?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were dating Jack, did you know George Senator?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I never did know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Jack Ruby was a friend of Gordon McLendon?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; he mentioned Gordon McLendon to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first hear Jack mention Gordon McLendon?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember. I would say several years before we
quit going together, before 1959, maybe 3 or 4 years. I can’t remember
when he first mentioned him to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack indicate to you about his acquaintanceship
with Mr. McLendon?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I think that he mentioned that Gordon McLendon had
given him some advertising time on his radio station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you understand it was free advertising time?
Mrs. NICHOLS. He didn’t say whether it was. I don’t recall him saying
whether he paid for it or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he know McLendon any way other than a business way?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether he went out with him socially or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. McLendon ever visit the Vegas Club?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see him in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now did Jack ever mention the name of a man Stanley
Kaufman?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack know Mr. Kaufman when you began dating him?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t believe he did. I never did hear him mention him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the nature of Jack’s acquaintanceship with Mr.
Kaufman?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he was Jack’s lawyer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack a social friend of his?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know. Well, I don’t know whether he ever went to
his home or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Kaufman visit the Vegas Club from time to time?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember ever seeing him in the Vegas Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Tom Howard? Did Jack ever mention Tom Howard as
an acquaintance?
Mrs. NICHOLS. He had mentioned Tom Howard, but I had never seen—as far
as I know, they were not friends. I never did see them together.
I never did see Tom Howard in the club. But I have worked for Tom
Howard when I first started working for attorneys, and I knew that I
had known Tom Howard because I worked for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you work for Mr. Howard?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Right after I got my divorce in 1947, for a short time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then before you went to work for your present employer?
Mrs. NICHOLS. That’s right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have been employed continuously with your present
employer?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Since; yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for Mr. Howard?
Mrs. NICHOLS. About 6 months.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever mention Ed Pullman?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Who?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ed Pullman?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever mention the name of Frank Fisher?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever mention the name of Alex Gruber?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Lawrence Meyers?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Mike Shore?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Buddy Heard?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, during the time that you were dating Jack, other
than the band that he would hire for his club, did Jack have business
contacts with the entertainment world?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Business contacts?
Mr. GRIFFIN. With the entertainment world?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether I understand. You mean personal,
individual, or bands?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; was it a regular practice of his to hire entertainers
other than the band to play at the Vegas Club? Singers and comedians or
dancers?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t hire any. He had a little colored boy one
time who used to put on a floor show out at the Vegas Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that Little Daddy Nelson?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the only entertainer that you knew of that Jack
was connected with while you knew him?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I believe you indicated to the FBI that Mr. Ruby was
very attached to his mother.
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he was devoted to his mother. He told me how—he had
remarked how much her death had hurt him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to tell whether he was more or less devoted
to his mother than to his father?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No. He seemed to be devoted to his father, too. He seemed
to be quite interested in his father’s welfare.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever mention to you in connection with his mother
that his mother had been a source of many problems to the family?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he had mentioned that she had been in an
institution; that she had a mental breakdown.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s attitude about that?
Mrs. NICHOLS. He didn’t say much about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any hostility toward her on account of it?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever tell you how he happened to change his name
from Rubenstein to Ruby?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No. He had already changed his name when I first knew
him, and he never did tell me how he happened to do it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know that Jack had been associated with his brother
Earl and his brother Sam in a business in Chicago?
Mrs. NICHOLS. He told me that he had.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever tell you how he happened to leave that
business and come to Dallas?
Mrs. NICHOLS. He told me that he came down here because his sister had
a nightclub here and she was having difficulty because business was
not going. He came down here to see if he couldn’t help her with the
nightclub business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever indicate anything about his relationship with
Sam and Earl in Earl Products?
Mrs. NICHOLS. He was a partner, I understood, in that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever indicate that he was dissatisfied in any way
with that?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you about how close he was or friendly he
was with his brothers?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I got the impression that he was close to his
brothers, his whole family. He seemed to be close to the whole family.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What gave you that impression?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he was very upset when his brothers Earl and Sam
broke up their partnership, and he went up there to try to help settle
their differences, and he just—I always got the impression that he was
close to his family.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you mentioned a man by the name of Ned Weisbrod.
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As a person whom you thought was friendly with Jack, close
to him in one way or another. When did you first meet Mr. Weisbrod?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I believe that I met him soon after I met Jack. I would
say probably in 1950.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did they continue, Weisbrod, to be friendly with
Jack?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I had not seen him in—when I first knew Jack, he had the
Silver Spur, and I used to see Ned in there.
And after he took over the Vegas, I used to see him out there until
about—I think it was about the last 2 or 3 years I had not seen Ned in
there. And the same thing with this Sam; that they used to be together
a lot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sam Lassen?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes. I had not seen either one of them in the Vegas Club
for, I would say, 2 years anyway before 1959, when we stopped going
together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever indicate why they stopped coming around?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any sort of quarrel that Jack had with them?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack seem to have any business relationship with
Weisbrod and Lassen?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were Weisbrod and Lassen more friendly with Jack than
Ralph Paul? Did you see them around more often than you saw Ralph Paul?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you also mention Adrian High as a person who was
friendly with Jack. And I believe, if my understanding is correct, that
High, Weisbrod, Lassen, and Ruby were sort of mutual friends?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether Adrian was a friend of Ned and Sam
or not. I have not seen Adrian High in, oh, since about, I would say
about 1956. I had not seen him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Weisbrod and Lassen are still in Dallas?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the last that you knew they were in Dallas?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I haven’t seen them since—the only place I ever saw them
was at the Vegas Club, and it’s been several years before I quit going
with Jack that I had seen them in there. At least 2 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack the kind of person that, if he had problems with
somebody or a dispute with somebody, that he would continue to talk
about it for some time after it occurred?
Mrs. NICHOLS. He didn’t talk to me about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You know some people, when they have a problem, they just
have to talk and talk about it until it seems to get out of their
system. Did Jack seem to be that kind of a person?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t talk to me about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you ever see Jack getting into any fights with
anybody?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him hit anybody?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see him hit anyone. I know that he had had
trouble in the club. I would hear about it. But I never did see him. I
have seen him put people out of the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear of his fighting with somebody socially, in a
social quarrel?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The only time you know of his fighting or hitting somebody
was in connection with his acting as a bouncer for the club?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see him, but I heard of it. I know that he
had a finger—he was putting a man out of his club and a man bit his
finger and he had to have it amputated, but I was not there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you dated Jack, how much money was he accustomed to
carrying with him?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know. I never did ask him and he never did tell
me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Jack carry a gun with him?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I have seen him with a gun when he would have his
moneybag for deposit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is his practice? You have seen him take money out of
the club?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what was his practice? Would he have the gun at the
club, or where would he keep the gun?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether he had it at the club or whether he
carried it in his pocket.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him carry it in his pocket?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did ask him if he had a gun in his pocket, and
he never did tell me. I never did see him take it out of his pocket.
When we would go by the club, he would pick up the money and I would be
sitting at a table, and I don’t know when he got the gun, whether he
got it out of his pocket or whether he kept it at the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would you see the gun; on the table or where?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I just saw it with the moneybag, and we would walk
out to the car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He would carry it in his moneybag?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I don’t remember ever seeing it in the moneybag,
but he used to put it on the seat with the moneybag.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he ever lock the money up in the trunk of his car?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see him do that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what did he use to do with his money after he took it
out of the club?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I thought he put it in a night depository. He would
take me home first, and I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You also indicated to the FBI that Jack was a gambler,
liked to gamble?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see him gamble, but he told me that
he—several times that he had gone back to the Artists Club and played
cards after he took me home. I never did see Jack gamble. He never
talked to me about that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who the owner was of the Artists Club?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know who owned it. A man by the name of Harris
was managing it. I think it was a musicians’ union.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of gambling would they have at the Artists Club?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I never did see them gambling there, but I imagine it was
cards, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a——
Mrs. NICHOLS. They served food there, and we have gone up there late to
get something to eat.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have a back room of some sort where they gambled?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know. I never did see them gambling there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Jack gambled with there?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how often would you say he would go there?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he only mentioned that to me for a short period of
time. I would say 3 or 4 months that he mentioned to me that he would
go up there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a man by the name of Johnny Ross?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; I have seen him in the Vegas Club a few times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you described him as a gambler?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Jack told me that he was a gambler.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Jack ever gambled with him?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Jack never did mention.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of gambling did Johnny Ross do?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have any business association with Johnny Ross?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now Jack called you on the day the President was killed?
Mrs. NICHOLS. That’s right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had it been before then that you had last seen
Jack?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I had seen him on the street one time in the spring of
1963 I didn’t talk to him. He was driving the car and I was walking.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before the time that you saw him?
Mrs. NICHOLS. And before that, it had been over a year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you talked to him on the telephone?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he had not called me in over a year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you told Mr. Sayres on the 18th of January that you
remembered that Jack had called you at about 2 o’clock on the 22d. How
did you happen to remember that at that time?
Mrs. NICHOLS. He called me sometime between 1 and 2, while I was out
for lunch and left his number for me to call him. And I called him back
as soon after 2, about 10 minutes after 2.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to know that Jack had called?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I go to lunch from 1 to 2 all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the first time that you talked with Mr. Sayres, you
didn’t remember apparently that Jack had called you?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or did you remember at that time?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he didn’t ask me about it and I didn’t think about
the importance of it until this investigation or for the defense
attorney asked me about that, if Jack had called me on that day, and I
remembered.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this investigator or one of Jack’s lawyers suggest
that you ought to call the FBI and let them know about this?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No. I got to thinking about it myself and I thought I
wanted to keep the record straight. I wanted to let the FBI know it,
too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the investigator indicate to you that you might
testify for Jack at the trial?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, no; he didn’t say. He didn’t tell me whether he
thought they would use me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some idea that you might?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, after I talked, after the investigator, contacted
me, I was afraid that I might be called.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever called?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I didn’t attach the importance to the telephone call at
the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you testify at the trial?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you willing to testify?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I didn’t want to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your reaction when you got this telephone call
from Jack shortly after the President had been shot?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I was just, I was surprised when he—after the
President had been shot?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that Jack had called you?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; I was surprised. We hadn’t been seeing each other
and I didn’t expect to ever hear from him again, and I was—he seemed to
be upset about the President’s assassination. I think everyone else was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you think Jack called you?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know why he called me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever question his attorney about that?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I haven’t talked to—never did talk to his attorney.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked with Jack since then?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I have not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or any members of his family?
Mrs. NICHOLS. His sister-in-law has called me twice since that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that be his sister-in-law?
Mrs. NICHOLS. His sister-in-law, Sam’s wife.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever ask her why Jack called you that day?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I didn’t ask her why.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she ever indicate to you why he called you?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you talked with Jack, when you called him back at
around about 2:15 or whenever it was, did you indicate to Jack that you
were surprised to hear from him?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I didn’t say anything to him about that, being
surprised.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The FBI reports here, Mr. Sayres’ report in his interview
of January 18, that Ruby was apparently calling to tell you what a
terrible thing he thought it was that President Kennedy had been
assassinated. Was there some question as to what Ruby really, why he
really was calling?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I was just surprised to hear from him. I don’t know
why he called me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what he said to you?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t remember the exact words, but the only thing, he
just talked about what a terrible thing the assassination was. It was a
very short, conversation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any particular thing he said?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or words that he used?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I don’t remember the words, the exact words that he
used.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you be able to tell me if he used the word,
“terrible,” there?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know whether he used the word, “terrible,”
or not. But generally it was just, he was just upset about the
assassination.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you at all about the effect that the
assassination would have on his business?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything particularly about President Kennedy?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he was talking about the assassination of President
Kennedy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any, did he say anything about what effect it
would have on the city of Dallas, the assassination?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t recall him saying that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you have a regular lunch hour?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your regular lunch hour?
Mrs. NICHOLS. From 1 to 2.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you place the time of the second telephone call
that Jack made to you?
Mrs. NICHOLS. In the evening?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, it wasn’t late in the evening, and I had finished
dinner and had my dishes washed and I was reading the paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time do you usually eat dinner?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I eat about 6.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody living with you at home?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I live alone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long does it usually take you to eat dinner?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I eat very slow in the evening. I usually listen to
music and I usually spend about 30 minutes, I would say. I take my time
and drink coffee and I sit at the table.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say to you when he called you?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, he just was talking again about the assassination,
and he told me at that time that he was going to the synagogue.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say about the assassination on the second
occasion?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, what a terrible thing it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, weren’t you again surprised that he should call you?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, yes; I was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask him?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I didn’t ask him why he called me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you indicate your surprise to him in any way?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I didn’t indicate it, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate that he would like to see you sometime?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No, he never; I can’t recall him asking how I had been or
anything personal. He didn’t say anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ask you how you felt about the assassination?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Well, I told him I thought it was terrible, too, and I
was quite upset about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ask you for any advice of any sort?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You can’t think of any reason why Jack should have called
you?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The second time that he called you, did you have any
indication of where he was calling from?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I have no idea where he was calling from.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear any voices in the background?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Television set on?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I don’t remember hearing any noise.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you how soon he was going to the synagogue?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; he didn’t tell me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you which synagogue he was going to?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t believe he did. I assumed it was Shearith Israel
because that is where he went.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you dated Jack, did Jack have any dogs?
Mrs. NICHOLS. He got his dog shortly before we stopped going together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But up until then, he had never owned a dog?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to buy the dog?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I think the first dog was given to him by someone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who gave it to him?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No, I don’t know whether he told me or not. Or whether it
was anyone that I know. I just remembered where he got the dog, and it
was killed. It was run over a short while after he got it, so he got
another one right after that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of dog was given to him?
Mrs. NICHOLS. It was a dachshund.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the next dog that he got also a dachshund?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Up until the time that his dog was given to him, had he
expressed any interests in dogs?
Mrs. NICHOLS. His sister had a little dog that he—I don’t know whether
he—I believe it seemed like he had taken care of it some for her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Eva Grant?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; she had a dog.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a man by the name of Abe Kleinman?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Yes; I believe he was a CPA or a bookkeeper. I believe he
kept Jack’s books, for a period of time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Floyd Turman, do you know him?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any police officers with whom Jack was
friendly?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I have seen police officers out there in the club,
but I never knew one in particular.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any of the women that he was friendly with
besides yourself?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I don’t know who else he dated.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about women that he saw in a business connection? Did
you see any women in the business? Did he see any women in a business
connection?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Not that I know of. I don’t know of any.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anything else that we haven’t talked
about here today that you haven’t already told the FBI, that you think
would be of importance to the Commission?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No; I can’t think of anything that would be of importance.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you if, as time passes here, and if anything
does come to your attention which you think might be helpful to us, if
you would contact somebody in the Commission or contact the FBI or the
Secret Service and let them know?
Mrs. NICHOLS. I will be glad to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We also ask you, other than the interviews that Mr. Sayres
had with you, have you been interviewed by any member of this staff?
Mrs. NICHOLS. Of this staff?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to having your deposition taken here, did you and I
have any interview?
Mrs. NICHOLS. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t think I have any more questions to ask you.
I want to thank you for coming here and taking all this time to do it,
and I realize that you are a working woman and it is an inconvenience
to you.
Mrs. NICHOLS. That is quite all right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But it was quite nice of you to spend all of this time.
Mrs. NICHOLS. I am glad to help in any way I can.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much.
TESTIMONY OF ROBERT CARL PATTERSON
The testimony of Robert Carl Patterson was taken at 4:15 p.m., on April
14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself. My name is Burt Griffin, and
I am on the Advisory Staff of the General Counsel’s office of the
President’s Commission investigating the assassination of President
Kennedy.
This Commission has been set up by virtue of an Executive Order from
President Johnson which was issued on November 30, 1963, and also by
virtue of a Joint Resolution from Congress, No. 137.
As a result of these two official Acts, the Commission has been given
authority to put forth its own rules and regulations to accomplish the
purpose of the investigation which we have been asked to conduct, and
under these regulations I have been given authority to come here and
take your deposition, Mr. Patterson.
I want to explain to you a little bit about what the purpose of the
investigation is. The Commission has been asked to investigate,
evaluate and report back to President Johnson upon all the facts
surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent
murder of Lee Harvey Oswald.
We have asked you to come here this particular day, Mr. Patterson,
because we understand that you have had some acquaintanceship with Jack
Ruby. However, we are interested in anything that you might be able
to tell about the assassination of the President or anything that you
might think might be relevant to that.
We have a certain set of procedures that we follow in conducting these
depositions and in asking people to come here. I presume you got a
letter, did you not, from the Commission?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Signed by Mr. Rankin?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes; I think it was. I have it in my pocket. That’s
right. (Referring to letter.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you get the letter?
Mr. PATTERSON. Saturday, it was I got it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now also under the rules of the Commission I might explain
to you that anybody who desires to appear here with an attorney has the
right to do so, and we encourage people to do it. I notice that you are
not here with an attorney, and I take it it is because you don’t have
any desire to have one. However, if for any reason you think that you
would want an attorney, or as this interview progresses you think you
should want to be represented by an attorney, please feel free to tell
me about it and we will postpone matters and continue the deposition
at a later date. I presume by the fact that you are here without an
attorney, that you don’t desire to have anybody represent you?
Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I don’t think I would need an attorney, because
I don’t think—I don’t know it was that important, so far as I was
concerned.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I don’t see any reason why you should have one
either, but I want to tell you this so that you understand that you do
have a right to have an attorney, and I hope that if for any reason
that you think you want to be represented, feel free to state that.
Do you have any particular questions that you want to ask me about the
deposition that is about to begin before I ask you to be sworn? Feel
free to ask anything that comes to your mind, because I realize this is
an unusual experience for everybody who appears here.
Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t believe so other than how long?
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long will it take? I don’t think it will take very
long. I want to ask you to raise your right hand and I will administer
the oath.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. PATTERSON. I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give the court reporter your full name?
Mr. PATTERSON. Robert Carl Patterson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Patterson?
Mr. PATTERSON. 902 East Waco Street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is in Dallas?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us when you were born?
Mr. PATTERSON. March 13, 1944.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you presently employed?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you employed?
Mr. PATTERSON. The Beachcomber.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of place is that?
Mr. PATTERSON. It is a night club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you do at the Beachcomber?
Mr. PATTERSON. Entertain.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind?
Mr. PATTERSON. Musician and singer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What instruments do you play?
Mr. PATTERSON. My major instrument is the guitar.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you sing any particular kind of songs?
Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I do mostly rhythm and blues and a few classicals.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been an entertainer?
Mr. PATTERSON. Approximately 5 years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you a high school graduate?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. I’m in college.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are going to college?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are attending college right now?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you attending college?
Mr. PATTERSON. Arlington State.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in the Dallas area?
Mr. PATTERSON. It is in Arlington, Tex.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What are you majoring in?
Mr. PATTERSON. Music.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were interviewed sometime in December by an agent of
the Federal Bureau of Investigation. Do you recall that interview?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time you indicated that you had worked on some
occasions for Eva Grant, Ruby’s sister?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first work for Eva Grant?
Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t know the exact date. In fact, I can’t even
recall the month, but it was, I guess you could say, the last of the
summer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This summer, 1963, was the first time?
Mr. PATTERSON. 1963; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So the first time you worked for Eva Grant would have been
in the summer of 1963?
Mr. PATTERSON. Approximately. As far as I can recall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much would you receive for a one night engagement with
Mrs. Grant?
Mr. PATTERSON. Well, the pay varied from—I just played a one hour show,
say, about 10 or 15 minutes with a saxophone player. That is myself and
my band, and I would say the average pay I received was $8 for these 10
or 15 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you sometimes receive more and sometimes receive
less?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the least you received?
Mr. PATTERSON. $4.00.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the most that you received?
Mr. PATTERSON. $10.00.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you play there?
Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t know for sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you always appear with your saxophone player?
Mr. PATTERSON. Eighty percent of the time I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they pay the saxophone player separately?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they sometimes pay you?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you would pay the saxophone player?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are nodding yes?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever consult with Jack Ruby or with Eva Grant
about playing at Jack’s Carousel Club?
Mr. PATTERSON. No. It was my understanding that he had different type
music there than what I played.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How were you known to the Rubys; by what name?
Mr. PATTERSON. Mrs. Grant called me Bobby Patterson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever had occasion to talk with Jack Ruby?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, I talked with him several times about playing. He
wanted me to start playing in the Vegas, and we talked about salary and
hours and so forth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Patterson, I am going to hand you what I have marked
Exhibit 5357, which is a photograph of a page out of that notebook, and
I have marked this photograph, Dallas, Tex., April 14, 1964, Exhibit
5357, Robert C. Patterson, and I signed my name to it. Previously this
same photograph has been marked as Crafard Exhibit No. 5225, and as
Armstrong Exhibit No. 5305-E.
I want to hand you this and ask you to look at the notations on that
notebook. If you can’t read them, indicate to me that you can’t and I
will try to read them for you.
Mr. PATTERSON. I see Billy Brook. I can’t make out the second line.
Bobby Patterson, six something, special friend, and then a ten and two.
No, and quotation marks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have to keep your voice up so she can hear you.
Mr. PATTERSON. Three ... I can’t make out that word—I can’t make out
the next word, and 2409 Maple. LA 6-7568 for Robert Patterson—no,
Robert is all.
Three—now I can’t make out the next—six eight three seven four nine
thousand eight, oh six, fifty by a hundred and ninety-two.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of those notations shown in that
photograph as having anything to do with you?
Mr. PATTERSON. It would be my guess that these were some notations of
where he paid somebody, somebody paid us for playing one night, because
I think this Billy Brook is a singer. I remember Billy Brook that used
to sing over at the Vegas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he sing there while you also entertained there?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, a few times he was there. None of this other, I
don’t know what that could be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If that notation Bobby Patterson and friends had to do
with you, who would the friend be?
Mr. PATTERSON. Robert Simpson.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the saxophone player?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a rate that was paid, six dollars to you and the
additional four dollars to Simpson?
Mr. PATTERSON. It could have been. We usually received the same pay. If
I got $5, he usually received $5. I don’t ever recall making any more
than he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is as much as you can remember about that?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Has anything come to your attention in connection with
Jack Ruby or in connection with any of the work you have done for Jack
or his sister, Mrs. Grant, that you think would be of value to the
Commission?
Mr. PATTERSON. No, I can’t recall anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you actually talk with Jack Ruby?
Mr. PATTERSON. I couldn’t pinpoint it to a certain number of times, but
I can approximate.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us your best estimate?
Mr. PATTERSON. You mean on the phone and in person?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. PATTERSON. About 15 times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many of these times would have been in person?
Mr. PATTERSON. Not 10 times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were all the times that you met him in person at the Vegas
Club?
Mr. PATTERSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you seen him besides at the Vegas Club?
Mr. PATTERSON. He came to my house one night to talk to my mother about
me playing for him, and him taking over as my manager and promoting a
record for me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mr. PATTERSON. Some time in the first of November, something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of record was he interested in promoting?
Mr. PATTERSON. Just a rock ’n roll record that he wanted to promote for
me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you already cut the record?
Mr. PATTERSON. I already record for another company and he said he had
some connections with a better record company that he could, you know,
he wanted me to record some new records.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who do you record for?
Mr. PATTERSON. Future.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that office located?
Mr. PATTERSON. Arkansas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Arkansas?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have to go up to Arkansas to cut the record?
Mr. PATTERSON. No, we cut here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many records have you cut for Future?
Mr. PATTERSON. Two.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you talk with Jack about promoting a particular
song?
Mr. PATTERSON. Not a particular song.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But about promoting you?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack say to you and what did you say to him?
Mr. PATTERSON. He said he had connections with Reprise.
Mr. GRIFFIN. R-e-p-r-i-s-e?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. It is pronounced Reprise, with which Frank Sinatra
has something to do with, and never did say what Frank Sinatra had to
do with it, but he said he knew some people in this line that he would
have no trouble getting a record promoted and distributed nationally.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your response?
Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I told him if he could get this done, fine, I
would consider recording for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he make an effort to have that recording done?
Mr. PATTERSON. No. He was trying to get me to play in the Vegas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the Vegas or the Carousel?
Mr. PATTERSON. In the Vegas. And I never did think too much about the
recording, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time he talked to you about the recording, had you
ever played at the Vegas?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what do you mean he was trying to get you to play
there?
Mr. PATTERSON. The band he had was leaving, quitting, had quit already,
I would say, and they had been there a long time, for a number of
years, and they quit. And he wanted my band to start playing there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you feel about playing at the Vegas?
Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I didn’t really want to because the pay was too
low and the hours were too long. But he propositioned me to cut the
number of hours because I was going to college, and the other saxophone
player was too going to college, and the other two guys worked.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So did you finally agree to play at the Vegas with your
band?
Mr. PATTERSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the last that you talked to him about playing at
the Vegas?
Mr. PATTERSON. About—I don’t know the exact—it was one Sunday evening,
I would say, approximately two weeks before the incident.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before the assassination of the President?
Mr. PATTERSON. Could have been a week and a half or a week anyway in
there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time Jack didn’t have a band playing at the Vegas?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes; he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He did have a band?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. He had hired one band and one band had quit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He hired another one?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the plan was that he would have had your band replace
the one that was already playing there?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with Jack Ruby any place except at your
house and the Vegas Club?
Mr. PATTERSON. Well, he came out to hear us. We were playing at SMU
college and he came out to hear the band.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mr. PATTERSON. This was the same Sunday that I talked to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other places that you talked to him?
Mr. PATTERSON. Well, I had an interview on the radio one night at the
Circle Bowl.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where?
Mr. PATTERSON. Circle Bowl; bowling alley.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What radio station?
Mr. PATTERSON. KBOX.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to be interviewed there?
Mr. PATTERSON. It was the first night I met Jack Ruby. I was playing at
the Vegas. I did the show, and Mrs. Grant called me over and introduced
me to him, and he said, “I like the way you play. Do you want to talk
on the radio?” So I said, “Sure.” So he said, “Follow me,” and me and
Robert Simpson followed him over to the Circle Bowl, and Jack West was
doing his night program and he interviewed me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?
Mr. PATTERSON. It was the first night that I met him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Back in the summer sometime, 1963?
Mr. PATTERSON. No, I didn’t know him, but I would say a month or month
and a half at the most prior to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But he called or spoke to you either in person or on the
telephone about 15 times in that month or month and a half?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. I mean in the same day and stuff like that, you
know, on different occasions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on any of these occasions that you saw him in person,
did he have anybody else with him?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes. The night I met him, he had somebody else with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At SMU?
Mr. PATTERSON. No. I met him at the Vegas Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did he have with him?
Mr. PATTERSON. He introduced me to a guy that was entertaining at the
Carousel, Billy DeMar. I think that is the last name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else with him that night?
Mr. PATTERSON. A little short guy. I don’t know his name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a Negro boy or a white one?
Mr. PATTERSON. I think he was just—he was an old man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how old a man would you say he was?
Mr. PATTERSON. I would say he was in his late forties.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How tall was he?
Mr. PATTERSON. About my size, about 5’2”.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his build, heavy, medium or thin man?
Mr. PATTERSON. For his size, he was kind of fat. Stomach went like that
[indicating].
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he balding, or did he have all of his hair?
Mr. PATTERSON. I think he was balding.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if he wore glasses?
Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he appear to be a business associate of Jack Ruby’s?
Mr. PATTERSON. I couldn’t tell. I didn’t ride in the same car with him
or nothing. I just saw him with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This other fellow didn’t do any of the talking?
Mr. PATTERSON. Well, we were talking about promoting the record and he
said, “Jack will put you over, don’t worry.”
He says, “If he likes you, he likes you, and if he don’t like you, he
don’t like you.” I remember him saying that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see this man again?
Mr. PATTERSON. No, I never did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet any other people with Jack?
Mr. PATTERSON. His roommate, George. I don’t remember his last name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you meet George?
Mr. PATTERSON. At their apartment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go up to Jack’s apartment?
Mr. PATTERSON. Well, it was the same night that he came over to SMU to
listen at us, and he said, “What are you fixing to do?”
I said, “I am going home.” It was on a Sunday after we got through
playing and he said, “Why don’t you come by and let’s discuss, you
know, the pay that I would pay you and the hours and so forth.” So he
didn’t live too far from my house, and we stopped by there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You and your trumpet player?
Mr. PATTERSON. No, just me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And Jack—was Senator with Jack at SMU?
Mr. PATTERSON. Who?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was George, was he with Jack?
Mr. PATTERSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At SMU?
Mr. PATTERSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you got to Jack’s apartment, the roommate was
there, George?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else there?
Mr. PATTERSON. The dog, and another woman and a man came in. I had seen
her over to the club working. I guess she was related to him in some
way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You had seen her at the Vegas Club?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been Mrs. Grant?
Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What time of the night did this man and woman come in?
Mr. PATTERSON. I guess it was around 8 o’clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at the apartment that night?
Mr. PATTERSON. About 20 minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice anything unusual about the apartment?
Mr. PATTERSON. No. Just an apartment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the only time you ever saw George?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before the assassination of the President was it
that you went to Jack’s apartment?
Mr. PATTERSON. Approximately 2 weeks or 2½, something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And it is your recollection that this was a Sunday?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you have any record at home from which you could
determine when that was? Any record of being paid at SMU which would
indicate when it was?
Mr. PATTERSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The man who came into the apartment that Sunday night with
the woman, how old a man did he appear to be?
Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t recall, but I would say he was in his middle
thirties or maybe 40. I didn’t pay that much attention, because I don’t
think I ever seen him before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he appear to be a Jewish man?
Mr. PATTERSON. I don’t know. I don’t think I ever heard him talk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How tall do you recall him being?
Mr. PATTERSON. Maybe 5’ 11”, something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his build, fat, medium, thin?
Mr. PATTERSON. He was fairly thin, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That was the only occasion that you were ever in Jack’s
apartment?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet him any other places?
Mr. PATTERSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever meet any of the people who worked at the
Carousel Club outside of Billy DeMar?
Mr. PATTERSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anything else that you could tell us
about Jack Ruby, about your meetings with him or acquaintanceship with
him?
Mr. PATTERSON. Well, like I say, I hadn’t known him but about a month
and a half. Maybe a month. It might have been 3 weeks prior to this
incident, and I didn’t know him that well, but he was trying to get us
to play over there, because a band he had had for so long had left, and
the one he had wasn’t doing as good a job as he felt they should, and
having a lot of trouble. Actually, my business dealings with Jack were
with Mrs. Grant, and he came in one night while I was performing and
she called me over and introduced me to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Patterson, I want to hand you a copy of a report that
the FBI made after the interview with you on December 16, 1963. It is a
copy of an interview report made by Special Agent James E. Garris, FBI,
and pertains to an interview with you on the 16th of December 1963.
I don’t know if you had a chance to read it, but, if you would, read
it over and tell me if there are any additions or corrections that you
would make to that other than what you have already told me here today,
and also, if you would, indicate to me if that is a true and accurate
report of the interview that you had with Mr. Garris? [Document marked
Patterson Exhibit No. 5358.]
Mr. PATTERSON. This part where it says intermittently for several
years, I wouldn’t say it was several years. More like a year, maybe.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you indicated to me that the first time you ever
worked for Eva Grant was back in the summer of 1963?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That wouldn’t even be a year. Is there something that
makes you think that you worked for or knew her even before then?
Mr. PATTERSON. Sure. All the bands, more or less. I mean, knew of the
place, you know, because I had a friend, Joe Johnson was playing there,
and occasionally we would stop by and sit in, play a few numbers, so
therefore——
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. PATTERSON. I guess that is what I meant.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then you would qualify the statement which reads as
follows:
“He has worked for Eva Grant, Jack Ruby’s sister, at the Vegas Club in
Dallas intermittently for several years as a guitar player and singer.”
You would state instead that for maybe a year before this interview on
December 16, you had visited the Vegas Club occasionally to see your
friend Joe Johnson, and that on those occasions you had sat in with Joe
Johnson’s band?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But that you never actually began to work there for money
until the summer of 1963?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes; I couldn’t pinpoint it whether it was the summer,
beginning or end of the summer, really. I don’t actually recall. I
would have to go back and get—she put a few advertisements in the paper
with my name, and I can go back and look at them. I don’t remember, I
played so many places.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you belong to any musicians’ union?
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes; I did once.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you a member of any union when you were playing for
Eva Grant at the Vegas Club?
Mr. PATTERSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any agent at the time you were playing for
Eva Grant at the Vegas Club?
Mr. PATTERSON. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you said already that you don’t have anything more
that you could add, and I take it that there is nothing more that you
would change in this interview report, is that correct? Or would you
make some more changes in the interview report other than what we have
already discussed today?
Mr. PATTERSON. About Jack Ruby?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, or about anything that appears in this interview
report. You hesitate like you think there are some other things you
could tell us. Let me encourage you to come forward and tell us
everything that you do know.
Mr. PATTERSON. Yes, this is all I remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. I would like to ask if you in the future, or if you
should remember anything or anything should come to your attention
which could be of any assistance to the Commission, please get in
touch with the Commission or, if it would probably be easier to get in
touch with the FBI or Secret Service, let me know what it is.
I appreciate your coming out here this afternoon and speaking with us.
You have had to wait around a long time to get here, and I certainly
want to apologize for inconveniencing you and tell you again that we
appreciate very much the time you have given us, and the help you have
provided here, and it’s been very nice meeting you.
Mr. PATTERSON. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF RALPH PAUL
The testimony of Ralph Paul was taken at 8:03 p.m., on April 15, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan
and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant
counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Ralph Paul.
Mr. Paul, my name is Leon Hubert, I am a member of the advisory staff
of the General Counsel of President Johnson’s Commission to investigate
the death of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee
Harvey Oswald. Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated
November 29, 1963, issued by the President’s Commission, the Joint
Resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by
Congress in conformance with that Executive order and joint resolution,
I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition of you, Mr. Paul. I
state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts related to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Paul, the nature of the inquiry tonight
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about
Jack Ruby and his associates, and his business and social friends
and so forth. Now, I believe you have appeared here as a result of a
letter written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, the General Counsel of the
Commission, advising that we would be here and requesting that you
appear. Was that letter received by you more than 3 days ago?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand up and take the oath, please? Do you
solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Paul, will you state your name for the record, please?
Mr. PAUL. Ralph Paul.
Mr. HUBERT. And how old are you, Mr. Paul?
Mr. PAUL. I will be 65 this December.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?
Mr. PAUL. Right now I live with some friends—I’m building a house in
Arlington, 1602 Browning Drive.
Mr. HUBERT. The letter of request to appear was addressed to the
correct place?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; both places.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that you are the owner or manager, and that is
one of the things we want to clarify, of the Bull Pen?
Mr. PAUL. I am the owner.
Mr. HUBERT. You are the owner?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a corporation?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the name of the corporation?
Mr. PAUL. That is Bappo [spelling] B-a-p-p-o.
Mr. HUBERT. That is Bappo, Inc., isn’t it?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is a closely held corporation, I take it?
Mr. PAUL. Well——
Mr. HUBERT. I mean, do you own all the stock?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. And, of course, the corporation owns the business and you
manage the business?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any other occupation at the present time?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you lived in Dallas?
Mr. PAUL. In Dallas—itself?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, let’s put it in the Dallas area, first. I
mean—Dallas-Fort Worth area.
Mr. PAUL. Okay—I came in December 1947.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live prior to that time?
Mr. PAUL. New York, New York City.
Mr. HUBERT. In New York City?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And I think that you originally are an immigrant, is that
correct?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That information, I believe is information in the statement
you have given.
Mr. PAUL. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what it was that caused you to come to Texas
from New York?
Mr. PAUL. I was connected with some show people and they came down here
and told me how great Texas was, and I came down, and in fact I came
down and leased the club, leased the Sky Club at first, and we stayed
there a month and then we bought it.
Mr. HUBERT. Leased which one?
Mr. PAUL. The Sky Club.
Mr. HUBERT. That was in 1947?
Mr. PAUL. That’s actually in 1948, I mean, I came to Dallas 2 days
before New Years or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Two days before New Years in 1947, so it’s practically 1948?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any connections here when you came?
Mr. PAUL. No—I didn’t know anybody here.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say “we”, you mean you and your wife?
Mr. PAUL. No—that entertainer and her husband brought me down here.
Mr. HUBERT. What were their names?
Mr. PAUL. Joe Bonds and Dale Belmont—it’s also in there.
Mr. HUBERT. They were husband and wife?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And they had been here before?
Mr. PAUL. They had been here before.
Mr. HUBERT. And they interested you in coming into this area?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave all your business and social connections in
New York?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you married?
Mr. PAUL. No; not at that time I came down from New York.
Mr. HUBERT. You have been married since?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You are not married at all?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You never have been married?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And is your wife dead or are you divorced from her?
Mr. PAUL. We got divorced in 1931.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have never remarried?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you supposed to supply capital to the venture?
Mr. PAUL. What venture?
Mr. HUBERT. With Joe Bonds?
Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say it was in a very short period after arriving
here you got interested in a place called the Sky Club?
Mr. PAUL. No; they interested me to come down here—they interested me
to come down here and rent the Sky Club from a man called Satterwhite,
and after we stayed there a month, he decided to sell it to us and then
is when we bought it.
Mr. HUBERT. Who put up the capital?
Mr. PAUL. We put up some capital—the rest of it was by notes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the corporation formed then?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So, it was owned by you and Bonds?
Mr. PAUL. Ralph Paul and Joe Bonds.
Mr. HUBERT. Half and half?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that venture last?
Mr. PAUL. I sold out my interest in May of 1948.
Mr. HUBERT. So, it lasted a very short period of time?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you sell it to?
Mr. PAUL. I sold it to a man from Miami that came up here looking for
business—I can’t think of his name—Rosenheim.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember his first name?
Mr. PAUL. I think it’s some place in this—that is, his first name is.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s all right, we will get to that. What sort of place
was the Sky Club—what was it?
Mr. PAUL. A nightclub.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was it located?
Mr. PAUL. On the Fort Worth Cutoff. I think the address was six
something Fort Worth Avenue.
Mr. HUBERT. What venture did you go into after that?
Mr. PAUL. I opened up a bar in downtown Dallas called the Blue Bonnet,
underneath the Blue Bonnet Hotel.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you rent the premises there and operate the bar
yourself?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any partners in that?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you maintain that occupation?
Mr. PAUL. I maintained it close to 5 years. I opened it in November and
sold it 5 years later in September.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you would have opened it in November 1948?
Mr. PAUL. Correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And you would have sold it?
Mr. PAUL. In September 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. 1953?
Mr. PAUL. No; 1953—that’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And what did you do after 1953?
Mr. PAUL. Well, I didn’t do nothing for several months and then I and
Chris Semos opened up the Miramar Restaurant on Fort Worth Avenue.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was a partnership too?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; that was a partnership.
Mr. HUBERT. It was not a corporation?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, this Chris Semos, did he put up the money?
Mr. PAUL. We both put up some money and the rest was notes.
Mr. HUBERT. And what was the name of that?
Mr. PAUL. Miramar Restaurant.
Mr. HUBERT. That was a restaurant?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And nightclub, was it?
Mr. PAUL. No, just a restaurant and drive-in.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you operate that?
Mr. PAUL. Close to 3 years—about 3 years less 2 months.
Mr. HUBERT. So that you operated that until, say, July of——
Mr. PAUL. No; I operated that until February.
Mr. HUBERT. Of what year?
Mr. PAUL. Of 1957.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you sell that, then?
Mr. PAUL. I sold it to Chris Semos.
Mr. HUBERT. You sold the whole thing to him?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you take a note from him?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice that in your income tax returns for some later
years you show interest received from Chris Semos of about $250 a
month; is that interest on that note?
Mr. PAUL. No; it’s $125 a month for seven years, that includes $100 a
month payments and $25 interest.
Mr. HUBERT. I beg your pardon—that’s what I meant to say.
Mr. PAUL. That’s $250 a year—and one time it was $250 because he
wouldn’t pay 2 months.
Mr. HUBERT. The interest you show as received, I said $250 a month, I
meant to say it was $250 a year.
Mr. PAUL. That’s right, $250 altogether, and one year he didn’t pay
full so it was only $250.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that loan paid out now?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So, in February of 1957 you didn’t have any business
connections?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Sir?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir. I went into partners with Jack Ruby’s brother, Sam,
and in a little ice cream place. We opened up April 25, 1957, and
closed it—we didn’t close, we gave the lease away so they wouldn’t
hold us responsible for the lease, and we lost some money because the
fixtures that we bought was more.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you operate that?
Mr. PAUL. May, June, and July.
Mr. HUBERT. Just a few months?
Mr. PAUL. We saw it didn’t make, so there was no use in wasting time.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your next business venture then?
Mr. PAUL. Next, I didn’t go in business, I was helping Jack Ruby in the
Vegas Club from August until the following year—May.
Mr. HUBERT. August of what year?
Mr. PAUL. August 1957, to May 1958.
Mr. HUBERT. You were with Ruby, you say, at the Vegas Club?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; I just was helping him.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean on a salary?
Mr. PAUL. Well, no—it wasn’t really a salary. I helped him out on
Friday and Saturday.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any compensation at all?
Mr. PAUL. Well, the only compensation I received he owed me some money,
he paid me back.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps at that point then we should go back to—so
that you may tell us when you first met Jack Ruby.
Mr. PAUL. Like I said over here, it was one of these improvised
meetings that you meet somebody that comes over to you and introduces
himself.
Mr. HUBERT. When was it, about; do you know?
Mr. PAUL. 1958.
Mr. HUBERT. In 1958?
Mr. PAUL. I mean, in 1948.
Mr. HUBERT. In 1948?
Mr. PAUL. Those years fly back so fast, 1948. That’s the year I was up
to the Sky Club yet.
Mr. HUBERT. And he simply came over and introduced himself to you?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; he says, “I’m Jack Ruby. I own the Silver Spur.” I don’t
think it was known as the Silver Spur, but I can’t recall the name
it was known then. It keeps on running in my mind that it wasn’t the
Silver Spur—it was another name, but I can’t remember it.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it the Singapore?
Mr. PAUL. That’s it.
Mr. HUBERT. It was the Singapore?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he told you he was the owner of the Singapore?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And subsequently that became the Silver Spur.
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any business connections with Ruby at all
until he got to owe you some money?
Mr. PAUL. Well, I’ll tell you the whole thing—the whole story.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; that’s best—that’s the best way to do it.
Mr. PAUL. Well, one day he came in with a friend of his—he’s now
deceased.
Mr. HUBERT. If you could fix the time and place—as you go—it would be
helpful, and I know it’s a long time ago but perhaps we will have to
take an approximation.
Mr. PAUL. Maybe it was 1949 or 1950 or 1951, I can’t remember those
years, and he asked me for a loan.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what the friend’s name was? The one that he
came in with?
Mr. PAUL. He’s now deceased, but it was Marty Gimpel.
Mr. HUBERT. And the two of them came to you?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And wanted to borrow some money?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How much was it they wanted to borrow?
Mr. PAUL. $2,000.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you lend it to them?
Mr. PAUL. He said to me, “I’ve got a show, I want to buy the Bob Wills
Ranch House”—did you get this one in there any place—he said, “I’ve got
to show it,” and he says, “All I want to do is show them that I’ve got
the money and I’ll give it back to you the following day.” Well, not
that I knew the guy so much, but you know, you can’t turn people down
like that if he wants to pay me the next day, so I loaned him $2,000.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get a note?
Mr. PAUL. No; he was going to pay me back the next day. Well, the next
day didn’t come. Subsequently he roped me in for $3,700.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean—more?
Mr. PAUL. With the $2,000—$3,700 altogether.
Mr. HUBERT. Making $1,700 more?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, why don’t you just tell us in your own words just how
this relationship developed and so forth?
Mr. PAUL. It’s silly but true, and when I tell it, it’s really funny.
The next time he comes he says, “They didn’t think it enough money
to show for the place, I’ve got to show them $3,000,” so I gave him
another $1,000.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been just a few days after?
Mr. PAUL. Yes—that’s 2 days afterwards. Instead of the next day
coming—he came 2 days and he says, “This is it positively—I’ve just got
to show them the money.” Well, he didn’t come around that Saturday,
and subsequently he came around and he said he had to use the money to
get into the business there. What do you do with a person—you’re just
stuck. You can’t do nothing until then—you can’t do nothing with them.
That went on for a couple of months, and now, listen to this: One day,
on a Friday—that’s how the other $700 is going to come in—on a Friday
he comes in and he says, “If I don’t get the money to buy beer, I’ve
got to close it down.” Well, you’ve got to think—you’re already stuck
with $3,000—that’s how the payments came when I was with him at the
Vegas Club—you understand me?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; so, you gave him another $700 on that occasion?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; but when he sold the Silver Spur at that time, he gave
me money back, because I have the note on the Silver Spur. He gave me
the note on the Silver Spur for the money, so in order to release the
note, he gave me $1,000.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, that’s a different transaction from the $3,700; is it?
Mr. PAUL. That’s from the $3,700. You see, I took a note afterwards,
when he went bankrupt—when he went with the Bob Wills Ranch House, he
gave me a note on the Silver Spur.
Mr. HUBERT. For what amount?
Mr. PAUL. For the $3,700.
Mr. HUBERT. Up to that time you didn’t have a note, but when the Ranch
House folded——
Mr. PAUL. Folded—it didn’t fold, his partner bought him out—the two of
them—he couldn’t—he didn’t get any money out of it anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, he went into the Silver Spur?
Mr. PAUL. No; he was in the Silver Spur before.
Mr. HUBERT. He was in the Silver Spur already?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He was in both?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; he was in both.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you got him to give you a note to show the $3,700?
Mr. PAUL. But when he sold it, I think he sold it for $2,200, or
$2,700, but he had to pay so many people that he gave me a thousand.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when he sold the Silver Spur——
Mr. PAUL. I had to give him the note—he couldn’t sell it without the
note.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the note secured in any way?
Mr. PAUL. No; it was registered.
Mr. HUBERT. A registered note, which made it a lien against the Silver
Spur?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. So that if he was going to sell it to anybody he had
to clear the note, he had to get some sort of cancellation as to
registration and that required the note?
Mr. PAUL. I gave him the note.
Mr. HUBERT. And you gave him the note for $1,000.
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That left $2,700 still owing?
Mr. PAUL. Not exactly $2,700—he paid me in little sums like 50 or 100—I
think it left about $2,200.
Mr. HUBERT. At that time?
Mr. PAUL. At that time.
Mr. HUBERT. And, of course, you had no more note?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; but when I helped him at the club, he gave me $50 or $25
or anything he could get ahold of to give me, so that eventually the
note went down to $1,200, and that’s what it remained on that deal.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, from August 1957 to May 1958, you helped
out at the Vegas, which he was then operating?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. The Silver Spur had gone?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then the indebtedness got reduced to about $1,200 you
think as of May 1958?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there any further story to that note, or is that money
still owing?
Mr. PAUL. That money is still owing.
Mr. HUBERT. That has never been paid?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have no note for it?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, after May 1958, what did you do?
Mr. PAUL. I bought into the Bull Pen.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was with Semos?
Mr. PAUL. No, no; that was with Bowman.
Mr. HUBERT. With Bowman?
Mr. PAUL. Bowman had a partner, and he got a notice from the building
department—what is it, VA or something like that—they wanted him—as an
examiner, so he sold out to me.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, originally you and Bowman were in as a
partnership alone, or was it a corporation when it started?
Mr. PAUL. No, no; when I bought this man out it was a stepfather
then—when I bought him out—Bowman and I were partners—50-50 partners.
Then we made it a corporation.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the year of the incorporation?
Mr. PAUL. I think it was 1960.
Mr. HUBERT. 1960, but you had operated prior to that as a 50-50
partnership with Bowman?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, you became a corporation and when did you buy out
Bowman completely so that you are now full owner?
Mr. PAUL. January 1, 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, after you left this association with Ruby in May of
1958, did you have any further business or social relationship with him?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; we were friends.
Mr. HUBERT. You had been friends actually for that time almost 10
years, hadn’t you?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; we were friends from the time he loaned the money from
me, let’s put it that way. We had to be friends.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him quite often?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How did that come about?
Mr. PAUL. Well, the nights I had off, you see, we used to work 1 day
and 1 night with my partners. If I worked nights, the next day he
worked nights, so we swung it around, so the nights I had off, either
I would go to the Vegas Club—at that time he had the Vegas Club alone,
and after that we would go out to eat.
Mr. HUBERT. Was his sister, Eva Grant, with the Vegas at that time? At
the very beginning?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When did she come in, do you know?
Mr. PAUL. When he opened up—not the Carousel, but the first one—which
one was that?
Mr. HUBERT. The Sovereign Club?
Mr. PAUL. The Sovereign Club.
Mr. HUBERT. What year was that—about?
Mr. PAUL. 1959 or 1960—I think it was 1959.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you known her before?
Mr. PAUL. Just a casual acquaintance, you know, I mean—I must have seen
her once or twice.
Mr. HUBERT. She didn’t live in Dallas?
Mr. PAUL. No; I think she was out on the road some place selling
merchandise.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any further business relations with Sam Ruby?
Mr. PAUL. No; just that ice cream place.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s all you ever had with him?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, did you ever have any financial interest in the Vegas?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t now and never have had any?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any, or have you ever had any financial
interest in the Sovereign Club?
Mr. PAUL. Actually—no—not interest at that time, but when I loaned
him money on the Sovereign Club, that was after he went out with his
partner. He and his partner couldn’t get along—Slayton.
Mr. HUBERT. That was Joe Slayton?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. They had started the Sovereign Club and they couldn’t get
along and Jack needed some money?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You loaned him some money, then, did you?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How much?
Mr. PAUL. Well, I think I loaned him for 3 months’ rent or 4 months’
rent—$550 a month, because that was the time he couldn’t pay the rent.
Mr. HUBERT. You loaned that in cash?
Mr. PAUL. No; I give him a check—not in cash.
Mr. HUBERT. You gave him a check?
Mr. PAUL. A check—I gave him a check.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he give you any evidence of indebtedness?
Mr. PAUL. No; the following year he gave me 50 percent of the club,
telling me that if the thing don’t go, the fixtures and everything
should represent my money.
Mr. HUBERT. You had no note about it?
Mr. PAUL. No; he gave it to me—I knew about it.
Mr. HUBERT. No; but did he give you a note?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any kind of written agreement?
Mr. PAUL. It was a stock receipt.
Mr. HUBERT. That was a corporation?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he gave you a stock certificate?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how many shares it was for?
Mr. PAUL. Five hundred.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that half of the corporation?
Mr. PAUL. Half of the place.
Mr. HUBERT. And he endorsed that over to you?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, yes; I think he did—he and Slayton—I think did.
Mr. HUBERT. And what was the consideration, that is to say, what money
did you pay for that?
Mr. PAUL. To open up the Carousel——
Mr. HUBERT. No; I’m talking about the Sovereign.
Mr. PAUL. The Sovereign was no consideration—just the stock deal, that
if anything happens to the club I should get some money out of it for
the fixtures.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, as a matter of fact you had actually loaned him 4
months’ rent at $550, whatever that is?
Mr. PAUL. About $2,200.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; $2,200, so, was it considered that that loan or that
indebtedness was the consideration for the stock?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Or, was the stock merely to secure it?
Mr. PAUL. That’s the security of that money—the stock was the security
of the money.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, if he had paid the money back to you, he
was entitled to the stock?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right. In fact, he took the stock certificate one
time; he thought he would be able to sell the club.
Mr. HUBERT. I see.
Mr. PAUL. He thought he would be able to sell the club, so I give him
the stock certificates; you know—you deal with people in money, that’s
true, and you are very careful, but sometimes friendship overshadows a
lot of things.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you say there that therefore there was
a close friendship between you and Jack. Did you continue during that
time on a friendly basis; that is to say, visiting at the Vegas or
Sovereign Club?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; we were always friends.
Mr. HUBERT. You think you saw him two or three times a week during that
time?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That would be from 1958 on?
Mr. PAUL. No; prior to that I saw him a lot of times before.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack was never married, was he?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was the Sovereign located? Was it the same place as
the Carousel?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about the changeover from the
Sovereign to the Carousel?
Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes; I forced him to change that over.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; tell us about that, if you can tell us the dates
and times, as close as you can.
Mr. PAUL. And, he needed money; the Sovereign Club was dead, as far
as he was concerned. Either he closed it or—either he closes it or he
does something else with it. So, I told him to change it to a burlesque
house and I will give him $1,650 to pay more rent on the place so
he could go on, so I loaned him $1,650 more to turn it over to a
burlesque. That’s when he changed it from the Sovereign Club, a private
club, to a burlesque house, which was an open place.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, with the Sovereign Club you had to belong
to the club?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Sort of a bottle club, as required by the laws of Texas?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right; he had a bottle club.
Mr. HUBERT. If you belonged to the club, you could buy liquor in the
club, and if you didn’t you couldn’t, and it was your thought that the
thing could be a success if its nature were changed?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; well, it’s an open place.
Mr. HUBERT. It’s an open place, a burlesque house, but, of course, you
couldn’t sell hard liquor?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. But it would sell beer?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. But your proposition to him was that you would advance
$1,650 in the new venture to at least pay the rent for some time?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about the incorporation of the S. &
R., Inc.?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; the S. & R. started the thing. That was the first deal;
S. & R. is Slayton and Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say “the first deal,” are you speaking of the
corporation that existed with reference to the Sovereign Club?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you aware that there was a corporation called
Sovereign, Inc., that owned the Sovereign Club?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you told me that he endorsed over as security 500
of the shares?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That was not the S. & R. shares with the stock
certificates, was it?
Mr. PAUL. The S. & R. was the Sovereign Club. The original Sovereign
Club was the S. & R., because Slayton didn’t belong to anything else
but the Sovereign Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me see if I can get this straight; you mentioned that
in order to start the Sovereign Club you advanced $1,650?
Mr. PAUL. No; that’s after Slayton went out.
Mr. HUBERT. After Slayton went out?
Mr. PAUL. Jack Ruby owned the whole thing then.
Mr. HUBERT. He did?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you loaned him 3 or 4 months’ rent?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In return for which he pledged to you or gave you as
security 500 shares of the stock of the corporation?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But I want to know what corporation was that; was that the
Sovereign?
Mr. PAUL. S. & R.
Mr. HUBERT. And what year would that have been in?
Mr. PAUL. In 1959 or 1960.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, apparently you were not aware that there was a
Sovereign, Inc.; a corporation called Sovereign, Inc.?
Mr. PAUL. No; all I knew was that it was the S. & R.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, when the place was changed to the Carousel, what
happened to your 500 shares?
Mr. PAUL. It’s still the same thing; Carousel is only a name. It’s
still S. & R.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you still have those shares?
Mr. PAUL. No; I gave them over to his sister.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that?
Mr. PAUL. February 14.
Mr. HUBERT. Of this year?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But you had held those shares, half of the ownership, as it
were, of the Sovereign Club originally, and subsequently the Carousel,
until recently?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you get any income from the corporation?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any kind of pay?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Of any sort; Jack never paid you any money through the
years at all?
Mr. PAUL. He never paid me a dime.
Mr. HUBERT. And I gather from that that he stands owing you now $1,200,
which was left from the original debt, about $2,200 that you loaned
him for which you got a security—500 shares of a corporation—and then
another $1,650 that you loaned him in order to open up the Carousel?
Mr. PAUL. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. A total of about $5,050, and is it your thought that he
still owes you that much money?
Mr. PAUL. Well, what am I going to do?
Mr. HUBERT. I just wanted to find out just what the picture was, as to
that. He never paid you any dividends?
Mr. PAUL. He never had any money to pay me dividends; he always used to
work from his pocket.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the Carousel very much?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir; once or twice a week.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you usually go on Saturday nights?
Mr. PAUL. Not every Saturday night; mostly Friday nights.
Mr. HUBERT. There is some evidence that on those occasions that you
went, there were some sort of payments made to you, Mr. Paul, and
that’s what I want to find out, if there were any. I don’t know what
the nature of them was; that’s why I’m asking you about it. If there
were payments on a loan or payments because of your ownership of the
Carousel.
Mr. PAUL. Not that I know of; not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your statement to me is that Jack Ruby
never paid you any money at all?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; that’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Either in the way of repaying the loan or in the way of
dividends? Or in the way of profits?
Mr. PAUL. In the first place, until the last year that he was there, he
was losing money.
Mr. HUBERT. At the Carousel?
Mr. PAUL. At the Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it make some money in the last year?
Mr. PAUL. In the last year I think it made some money, but he was
so much in the hole that he had to pay everybody else. When he was
arrested—now, mind you, when he was arrested—you wouldn’t think that an
electric company—you could owe them that much money, but there was $175
or $180 a month, and he owed them over $600.
Mr. HUBERT. The electric company?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; the electric company—Dallas Electric Lights, and the
telephone company—$153. He kept on owing everybody money.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, in any case, you didn’t get any payments of money
from him?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. For your share of what any profits might have been or
dividends or interest or repayment of loan or in any way at all; is
that correct?
Mr. PAUL. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you say that you gave the 500 shares that you held up
until February 14 of this year to Eva Grant?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us why you did that?
Mr. PAUL. Well, for one reason, I couldn’t run the club; I tried to run
it, but I couldn’t run it. I lost about $3,000 in the time I run it
from the 25th of November until the 14th of February.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever find out who owned the other 500 shares?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it Jack?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t know; I was never interested to know all the other
facts, because I never figured to get any money out of the place anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Earl Ruby?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s Jack’s brother?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever met him prior to November 24 or November 25?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. PAUL. In Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he come here often?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I think I met him twice or three times.
Mr. HUBERT. In your whole life, until the 25th?
Mr. PAUL. Until the 25th, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any interest in the Carousel?
Mr. PAUL. I couldn’t tell you.
Mr. HUBERT. Does he claim any?
Mr. PAUL. I still don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know his brother Hyman?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; I met him one time.
Mr. HUBERT. Just one time?
Mr. PAUL. The Friday before the assassination.
Mr. HUBERT. Before the murder?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You never met him before?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What about his sister, Eileen?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know her at all?
Mr. PAUL. I never heard of her.
Mr. HUBERT. And I think he has another sister called Mrs. Anna Volpert.
Mr. PAUL. No; I don’t know her, either.
Mr. HUBERT. You never met any of the other brothers and sisters?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; Sam and his wife, and Eva and Earl, and that’s all.
Mr. HUBERT. And then Hyman?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Sam, of course, you have seen more often than any of them?
Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes; Sam—well, we were partners for about 3 or 4 months.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but you had no other business relations after that.
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, can you tell me why it was that this man owed you
this kind of money and you had the stock at least for security for
something; you gave it to Eva; what caused that to come about; did she
ask you, or did you volunteer to do that?
Mr. PAUL. No; I voluntarily gave it to her so she could sell the club.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your thought was that it wasn’t anything to
you?
Mr. PAUL. I told her, “I don’t want nothing out of it; I don’t want
nothing, I take my loss.” And I let her have it. If she could sell
it—to take the money and use it for herself, because she’s a poor widow
and she will verify everything I said—just the words.
Mr. HUBERT. Did she tell you that she had the other 500 shares?
Mr. PAUL. No; she just told me last week—she was over at my place, and
she told me she didn’t know who had the other 500 shares.
Mr. HUBERT. Has anyone asked Earl about it?
Mr. PAUL. I didn’t ask Earl about it.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Jack himself?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen Jack since he has been in jail?
Mr. PAUL. I have seen him three times since he has been in there—one
time I seen him—about 4 weeks ago—the time before I went to New York,
the week before I went to New York I was down there, the 27th, I think
it was, and I came back the 2d.
Mr. HUBERT. That was of April?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you saw him once just before that?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the first time you had seen him since he had been
in jail?
Mr. PAUL. No; I saw him twice when he first got into jail—twice I saw
him then.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there was the last time you saw him in jail
and then you saw him two other times before that?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When were those times—about?
Mr. PAUL. I think about the second week and the fourth week—I think.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss with him his business?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir—no, sir; I didn’t discuss it—I didn’t discuss
nothing—how could you discuss a man’s business when he is held for
murder?
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, I didn’t mean that you would bring up the
subject, but I was wondering if perhaps he had asked about it?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you have been unable to get from any source
Jack or Earl or Eva or Sam or anybody else where the other 500 shares
are?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. And you gave your 500 you held to her—you received nothing
in return for it?
Mr. PAUL. No: what I told her to do was to pay the Government.
Mr. HUBERT. And from all you know, she doesn’t even know where the
other 500 shares are?
Mr. PAUL. No; that’s what she told me.
Mr. HUBERT. I noticed on your income tax return, too, that you had a
capital loss that you have spread over some years of $7,000; I think,
last year was about the last of it—I think you used about $1,000 a
year; is that in connection with any of this, or is that another
transaction?
Mr. PAUL. No; that’s from the Miramar and the ice cream place—that was
in 1957. The place wasn’t in existence in 1957.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of George Senator?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know about him, please, Mr. Paul?
Mr. PAUL. Well, he used to be a salesman, a dry goods salesman of men’s
apparel, let’s call it, shirts and so forth.
Mr. HUBERT. Wholesale?
Mr. PAUL. No; retail—maybe wholesale, I don’t know—he was working for
some firm on the road. Well, it’s Jack that made a friend of him you
know what I mean, coming up to the club. They got friendly and in the
last year I think he went into a novelty business with somebody—am I
right?
Mr. HUBERT. That’s the year 1963?
Mr. PAUL. I think so—some cars and little—different things, a lot of a
little truck, and then finally about—oh, maybe in July or August——
Mr. HUBERT. Of 1963?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; they pushed him out, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean his company did?
Mr. PAUL. It isn’t a company, they pushed him out because he wasn’t
selling anything, or he was using up the money or something to that
effect, and they pushed him out and he wasn’t doing nothing and he was
living with another man and they had an apartment and the other man got
married and he didn’t have no money, so Jack told him he could live
with him until he could get another job, but that’s George Senator.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known George?
Mr. PAUL. About 2 years.
Mr. HUBERT. And you think Ruby knew him about the same length of time?
Mr. PAUL. I think so—maybe a little longer.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he do any work around the Carousel?
Mr. PAUL. Who?
Mr. HUBERT. George Senator?
Mr. PAUL. I think he used to help him out on Saturday night. I don’t
know whether he paid him or not. Now, I would like to know who told you
I get money out of the Carousel? I wish I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, I can’t answer that.
Mr. PAUL. I know, but somebody must have told you I get money out of
that. You know what I used to do—I used to count the money for him at
the end of the night because he was such a flip, you know what I mean,
he used to argue with everybody that would count the money for him, and
hold it until he went downstairs, so I gave it to him.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that—that’s interesting.
Mr. PAUL. Well, if I be there on Saturday night or Friday night, at the
end of the night, he would say to me, “Clear the register.” So, I would
count the money. He says, “Let the boy from the bar give you the money
and hold it until we come downstairs and I go to the car.” And that’s
how I got the money.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you would be seen counting the money?
Mr. PAUL. Yes: that’s right—that’s why I wanted to know who told you.
Mr. HUBERT. But that’s all it amounted to, just that you had counted
the money for him?
Mr. PAUL. That’s all—I would bring it downstairs—he never carried it
with him actually—I don’t know why he carried so much money the last
time. Actually, he used to throw it in the back of the car in the trunk
and he said, “That’s the place that nobody looks.”
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you have known him to go home with money in the
sack and he never put it on his person at all?
Mr. PAUL. No—in the back of the car.
Mr. HUBERT. Even when he parked his car at night he wouldn’t take it
upstairs?
Mr. PAUL. What do you mean—no; he never took it up to the house—he left
it in the car.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have occasion to know how much money he had
around like that?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, you know, I suppose, from the newspapers
and what you have heard that when he was arrested he had altogether on
his person and in the car an so forth, something in excess——
Mr. PAUL. It was in the car too, wasn’t it?
Mr. HUBERT. Some of it, yes; but to your knowledge, most of the time he
didn’t keep it on his person at all?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the gun, did he keep that on his person?
Mr. PAUL. It’s a funny thing about the gun—he would always carry it in
a bag, in a deposit bag, a money bag.
Mr. HUBERT. A canvas bag, and——
Mr. PAUL. Unless he went some place special, because he always said
somebody might want to beat him up.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by “some place special”—like what?
Mr. PAUL. Well, like if he was going out on a date or something, you
know, I mean he wouldn’t carry the bag. I mean, if he went to a show or
something, he wouldn’t carry the bag.
Mr. HUBERT. But he took his gun?
Mr. PAUL. No; he left it in the bag. The only time he would carry the
gun—the bag was if he wasn’t going to no place or he went home—if he
went to eat, he would take it with him.
Mr. HUBERT. The gun or the bag?
Mr. PAUL. The bag with the gun.
Mr. HUBERT. From his car?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But yet he would leave it outside all night?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In the car?
Mr. PAUL. In the car.
Mr. HUBERT. But let me see if I get this straight—if he was going to
eat, he would go to his car, take the money out of the trunk——
Mr. PAUL. No; the bag.
Mr. HUBERT. The bag—with the gun only?
Mr. PAUL. The gun.
Mr. HUBERT. He would leave the money there and take the bag with the
gun, and then carried the gun in that fashion?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, many times he would be driving my car, he would leave
the bag and the money on the bottom and lock the car.
Mr. HUBERT. And the gun would be in there with the bag and the money?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But you say that there were occasions when he would take
the gun alone, leaving the money behind, but the gun not in a holster,
but in a bag?
Mr. PAUL. But in a bag—so everybody thought he was carrying money.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if he ever owned a holster?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him carry the gun in a pocket or tucked in
his waist?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I never did.
Mr. HUBERT. The only time you have ever seen him carry his gun was when
he carried it in a bag?
Mr. PAUL. In the bag.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Gruber that lives out in
California?
Mr. PAUL. Gruber?
Mr. HUBERT. Gruber [spelling] G-r-u-b-e-r.
Mr. PAUL. That name doesn’t sound familiar to me. I’ll tell you, Jack
had a million friends that I would never remember their names anyway.
He used to introduce me and the name just flew by.
Mr. HUBERT. What about this boy Larry Crafard or Curtis Laverne
Crafard, as he was called—do you know anything about him, that young
man that was around the club for the last month or so?
Mr. PAUL. I think he was cleaning up the place every day and used to
sleep there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to him?
Mr. PAUL. Jack brought up so many—no; I never did talk to him, but I
never talked to those people myself that Jack used to pick up in the
street and bring them up to work and do something, and in a couple of
weeks they disappeared.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was not a peculiar thing at all for Jack
to bring in someone?
Mr. PAUL. Take them home to sleep—a man that hasn’t got a place to
live. I used to say to Jack, “Suppose he robs you?” He says, “So, he
robs me.”
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Louis McWillie?
Mr. PAUL. McWillie? I knew him a long time ago. I think he is in—not
Vegas—what is the other place?
Mr. HUBERT. Vegas is right.
Mr. PAUL. Vegas—is he?
Mr. HUBERT. Tell me what you know about him, was he ever in Dallas?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; sure, he was in Dallas a long time.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his business when he was here?
Mr. PAUL. When he come—he used to go to golf places and bet on golf.
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about golf tournaments and golf games?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, wasn’t he a gambler in general—all
sorts of gambling?
Mr. PAUL. I think so—I never had any dealings with him either.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of Ruby’s dealings with him?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, do you know that sometime in 1959, probably
around September or Labor Day, Jack went down to Havana, Cuba?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And stayed with McWillie?
Mr. PAUL. Well, McWillie sent him the carfare—McWillie was running the
gambling house down there for the—I don’t know what it was—Batista or
some of their people—somebody else down there.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know and how you found out about it?
Mr. PAUL. Well, Jack told me.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you?
Mr. PAUL. He told me he sent him money to come down there for a
vacation.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack supposed to work or was it just a vacation?
Mr. PAUL. Just a vacation.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any reason why, or did Jack tell you any
reason why, McWillie would be interested in financing a vacation for
Jack?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t know, but I think Jack was a close friend of his.
Actually, he thought the whole world was built around McWillie.
Actually—and I never could see it, and I never used to go out with him
when McWillie was around.
Mr. HUBERT. You disliked McWillie?
Mr. PAUL. No: but I didn’t care too much for his personality.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever express yourself in that way to Ruby?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his answer?
Mr. PAUL. Well, he told me—that he thinks he is a great guy—Jack says.
Well, actually, I for one never meet too many friends with Jack, and
Jack made everybody a friend and I haven’t got too many friends. I
just work to make a living. I’m not interested in a whole lot of other
things.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, what you are saying is that Jack was a man
who made a lot of friends?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were one of his friends?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you had fewer friends than he did?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But you considered yourself one of his best friends?
Mr. PAUL. Yes—Jack’s best friend.
Mr. HUBERT. Both ways?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember how long he stayed in Havana?
Mr. PAUL. A week or 10 days.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he went to Miami at that time or New
Orleans?
Mr. PAUL. I think he stopped in Miami and went from Miami to Cuba and
he came back to Miami. I think he had to do that anyway—it wasn’t a
straight flight.
Mr. HUBERT. But I take it that you are assuming that it was not—what I
wanted to get at was whether Jack had ever told you—that’s the way you
would know.
Mr. PAUL. I’m telling you that he did.
Mr. HUBERT. That he told you that he went from here to Miami?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And from Miami down to Havana?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And on the route back, he came back through Miami?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; I think that’s what he told me.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any other trips that he has taken?
Mr. PAUL. The only time when I was at the Vegas Club, he went to—what
are those Springs over there—Hot Springs—I think 2 weekends in a row.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any other travels that he might have made?
Mr. PAUL. He went to New York.
Mr. HUBERT. When?
Mr. PAUL. Last year to see the AGVA president.
Mr. HUBERT. That was in regard to the trouble he was having with the
Weinsteins?
Mr. PAUL. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that was in August, was it not?
Mr. PAUL. No; it was earlier than August, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of his trip to New Orleans last year?
Mr. PAUL. Yes—he went to—somebody told him about this strip down there.
Mr. HUBERT. Bourbon Street?
Mr. PAUL. Bourbon Street and he went down to catch her act.
Mr. HUBERT. He went for what purpose?
Mr. PAUL. To catch her act—to catch the girl’s act, so he could book
her.
Mr. HUBERT. He wanted to look at the girl’s act to see if he could get
any talent to come up here?
Mr. PAUL. The reason why—she asked for a lot of money.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is that?
Mr. PAUL. Oh, what is her name——
Mr. HUBERT. Jada?
Mr. PAUL. Jada.
Mr. HUBERT. He went down to Bourbon Street to see if he could get any
striptease acts?
Mr. PAUL. That was the one he was sent to look at.
Mr. HUBERT. He was especially sent for Jada?
Mr. PAUL. This Earl Norman—the M.C.—was down there.
Mr. HUBERT. Earl Norman?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; and he saw her and he asked Jack to go down and see and
get her, that she was going to bring him a lot of business.
Mr. HUBERT. And you knew this because Jack kept you in touch with the
things he was doing and he made a contract with Jada, did he?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; she worked at the club quite a while.
Mr. HUBERT. She brought in some money, as I understand?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; and no. At first she was doing all right, and then she
fell off to nothing.
Mr. HUBERT. She quit, I think, before her contract was over?
Mr. PAUL. Actually, it was a verbal contract—the last. You see, they
had a contract to start with and then it became a verbal contract—she
works as long as she wants to—as long as he wants to keep her.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the first contract was a written contract
but of limited time, and when it ran out it was on a weekly basis?
Mr. PAUL. On a weekly basis.
Mr. HUBERT. During last fall, say from the time Jack came back from New
York until November, do you think you saw him two or three times a week
then? Or spoke to him?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think you are in a position to say whether or not
he left town during any of those times during the period after he came
back from New York—say, September, October, and November?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I don’t quite understand your answer—are you in a
position to say?
Mr. PAUL. He didn’t leave town.
Mr. HUBERT. In your opinion?
Mr. PAUL. The only place I know he went is New Orleans and New York,
last year.
Mr. HUBERT. And in your opinion if he had gone anyplace else, you would
have known it?
Mr. PAUL. I would have known it. In fact, I was the only one that knew
he went to New York, but when he went to New Orleans everybody knew
because that was another thing—that was no secret.
Mr. HUBERT. And you are basing your opinion on the knowledge of his
movements by the fact that you were in contact with him both in person
and by telephone several times a week all through this period?
Mr. PAUL. Almost every day.
Mr. HUBERT. You would telephone one another?
Mr. PAUL. What?
Mr. HUBERT. You would telephone one another or see one another?
Mr. PAUL. Yes—telephone mostly. In the last year, I think I used to go
to the club twice a week, Tuesday and Friday, because all the other
nights I was working.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, those were your nights off?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you went almost 100 percent of the time that you had
nights off, Tuesday and Friday, you went to the Carousel and you would
stay there all evening?
Mr. PAUL. Well, I wouldn’t come until late anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. You would come late and stay until it closed?
Mr. PAUL. And then go for coffee or something to eat.
Mr. HUBERT. And in other than those days you would get in touch by
telephone?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose—just friendship?
Mr. PAUL. That’s all—and, he had trouble with the Weinsteins and he
always asked for advice. That’s why he used to call me all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. The telephone records, as you know, show quite a number of
calls between you.
Mr. PAUL. They don’t?
Mr. HUBERT. They do, and I was wondering just what those calls were
about.
Mr. PAUL. Well, every day he would find something else he would like to
do—he would think of doing, or the union didn’t do right by him, the
AGVA, or the girls didn’t do right—that’s why he called me almost every
day.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he would call you if he had trouble with the
girls?
Mr. PAUL. If he had trouble with any of the girls, he would call me.
Mr. HUBERT. If he had trouble with the one—with the Weinsteins, he
would call you?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; and the AGVA people—you see, they’ve got a board of
directors and each one takes a part, and if this one doesn’t do
right—that was almost consistently—he called on that.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear that the President had been shot?
Mr. PAUL. On Friday—I was working. It was the lunch hour, you know, and
lunch hour is our busiest hour. I’m always there on the lunch hour, and
my landlord’s son called me on the telephone and told me the President
was shot—they got it on the radio, and so I turned on the radio and
then we all listened, everybody in the place naturally, because there
was some excitement—people hollered and cried all over the place, and
then everybody was listening to the radio to see what the result would
be, and at 2 o’clock I went home, or a little after 2—generally I
stayed until 2 o’clock on Friday. A little after 2—and when I got home
Jack called me and he said, “Did you hear what happened?” I said, “Yes;
I heard it on the air.” He says, “Isn’t that a terrible thing?” I said,
“Yes; Jack.” He said, “I made up my mind. I’m going to close it down.”
I said, “Well, I can’t close down, I’ve got an eating place.”
Mr. HUBERT. And did he suggest to you that you should close down your
place?
Mr. PAUL. That’s what he said, “Ain’t you going to close?” I said, “No;
I’ve got an eating place.” I says, “You can do whatever you want.”
Mr. HUBERT. Did he discuss with you whether he should close down?
Mr. PAUL. No; he didn’t discuss it. He told me he was going to close
down.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you for how long?
Mr. PAUL. Three days.
Mr. HUBERT. That was at 2 o’clock?
Mr. PAUL. Friday at 2—Friday night and Saturday night and Sunday night.
Mr. HUBERT. He was going to close up?
Mr. PAUL. Friday night and Saturday and Sunday nights.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you why he had chosen those 3 nights?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; in honor of the President being shot—he was heartbroken.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean, why 3 nights instead of 2 or 4?
Mr. PAUL. That’s what I told him. I said to him, “Are the other clubs
going to close?” He said, “I don’t care about the other clubs.”
Mr. HUBERT. Where was he calling you from, do you know?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t know—he didn’t say where he was calling me from. He
generally called me from a telephone booth or the club—not so much from
his home.
Mr. HUBERT. What would seem to be his condition when you were talking
to him, emotionally and otherwise?
Mr. PAUL. Very bad emotionally—he said, “I can’t believe it.”
Mr. HUBERT. What was it based upon, do you know?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t know—if you don’t see the person, you can’t tell the
person on a telephone how he reacts or——
Mr. HUBERT. I mean, you have known him for a good many years.
Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes; I’ve known Jack for so many years and he has always
been that way, you know, reaction—fast—punch line—got to do this right
away [indicating]. With him it wasn’t—he thought and did. It wasn’t a
second thought.
Mr. HUBERT. But you are quite clear that when he called you about 2
o’clock——
Mr. PAUL. That’s about a little after the time I got home—was a quarter
to 3.
Mr. HUBERT. And that’s the first time you had heard from him?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. The President was already dead?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was known he was dead?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything about Tippit?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I didn’t know nothing about Tippit. I didn’t know
nothing about Tippit.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t tell you?
Mr. PAUL. No; he didn’t tell me anything about Tippit.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, he said he had made up his mind he was going
to close up the club for 3 days already?
Mr. PAUL. Yes
Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t ask you—he told you?
Mr. PAUL. No; he told me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention he thought that the death of the President
would hurt business in the Dallas area and therefore hurt his business?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. He did not?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that conversation last—about?
Mr. PAUL. Three or 4 minutes—he says, “It’s a terrible, terrible
thing.” Then, when I got back to the place in the evening he called me.
Mr. HUBERT. That was about what time?
Mr. PAUL. Well, I came back at 5 and I think he called me at 6.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he was then?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir; he says, “It’s such a terrible thing that I’m going
to go to synagogue.” He says, “Do you want to come along?” I says,
“No; I don’t go to the synagogue, I’m not going to make a fool out of
myself.”
Mr. HUBERT. Did he go to the synagogue?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he go often?
Mr. PAUL. For a year he went every—should I say—every day.
Mr. HUBERT. That was after his father’s death?
Mr. PAUL. That was after his father died—yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s part of the Jewish religion that you should do that?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; that’s true.
Mr. HUBERT. And he followed that?
Mr. PAUL. He followed that very closely.
Mr. HUBERT. After that, did he go very much?
Mr. PAUL. No; once in a while on holidays—he made it a habit of going
on holidays to the synagogue.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s the Jewish holidays?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t go every week?
Mr. PAUL. No—no.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a surprise to you that he would be going to the
synagogue?
Mr. PAUL. To tell you the truth, I didn’t—anything Jack does is no
surprise to me.
Mr. HUBERT. I’m sorry (addressing the reporter) I didn’t get that, did
you get that?
The REPORTER. “To tell you the truth, anything Jack does is no surprise
to me.”
Mr. HUBERT. But it was not his normal custom?
Mr. PAUL. No; but he says he’s going to pray because a thing like that
happened.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, that, you think, was about what time?
Mr. PAUL. About 6 o’clock in the evening.
Mr. HUBERT. And that conversation was just a matter of a few minutes,
too?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you hear from him next?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t know whether it was that night again, after he
got out of synagogue—I can’t recall. But, he didn’t call me again—I
know—until Saturday night, or until Saturday afternoon, and he said,
“Did you see my ad in the paper?” I says, “What paper?” Well, Saturday
is a pretty bad paper, and I said, “What paper?” He says, “In the Times
Herald and the News.” I said, “What did you put?” He said, “That
I’m closing down for 3 days.” I said, “That’s what you said to me
yesterday.” He said, “But, it’s in the paper.” I said, “All right, I
believe you.”
Mr. HUBERT. You think that was Saturday afternoon?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You had not spoken to him or seen him since the night
before?
Mr. PAUL. No—I didn’t see him—no; when I saw him was Thursday night.
Mr. HUBERT. You were at the club then?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; then he called me Saturday when I got home.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?
Mr. PAUL. Well, I didn’t feel too good that night, and I left home—I
generally work until 1 o’clock in the morning. I left at 11 o’clock
and he said he called the place and they told him I went home and they
told him I didn’t feel well, and he says, “What’s wrong with you?” And
I says, “I’ve got a cold,” and then he told me that he was downtown and
that nobody was doing any business, so I says to him, “Well, if nobody
is doing any business, I guess you had better close.”
Mr. HUBERT. And what did he say to that?
Mr. PAUL. Then he called me back one more time—I didn’t give you this
before because I didn’t—then he called me back one more time and told
me that he was over at his sister’s house, Eva’s house, and Eva was
crying and they are both crying.
Mr. HUBERT. This was Saturday night?
Mr. PAUL. This was Saturday night—that was late. I said, “Jack, I don’t
feel good. Let me go to sleep.”
Mr. HUBERT. How long after the first call on Saturday night did the
second call come?
Mr. PAUL. The first call come, I think, was 9:30 or 10 o’clock, and the
second call I think was about 11:30.
Mr. HUBERT. You had left at what time?
Mr. PAUL. I left the place about 9 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Because of your feeling ill?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he reached you shortly after you got there?
Mr. PAUL. No, it was about an hour or so later.
Mr. HUBERT. You were in bed already?
Mr. PAUL. I was in bed already—that was the last time I spoke to him, I
says, “Jack, let me go to sleep because I don’t feel well.”
Mr. HUBERT. That was on the second call?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So, the second call was at what time?
Mr. PAUL. About 11 or 11:30.
Mr. HUBERT. The first call was about 9:30?
Mr. PAUL. No; about 10:30.
Mr. HUBERT. About 10:30, and the second call about an hour after?
Mr. PAUL. No; I left the place, but it just takes me about 15 or 20
minutes to get home, and I doctored myself up with some hot tea and so
forth—it must have taken about another half hour, so it must have been
about 10:30.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on the first call—he had called your place
and found out you were not feeling well?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; he called me and I told him I wasn’t feeling well and he
told me that nobody downtown was doing any business.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you told him he ought to be glad he stopped,
because if nobody was doing any business he might as well be closed,
and that was about the subject of that conversation?
Mr. PAUL. That’s—that was that conversation. That’s the subject, and
then he called me back and he told me he was over at his sister’s house
and his sister was crying and he was crying with her on account of the
President, and that’s the last I spoke to him.
Mr. HUBERT. You could hear her crying or he told you?
Mr. PAUL. He just told me.
Mr. HUBERT. What about his own crying, could you tell that he was
crying, did he seem to be crying?
Mr. PAUL. No; he wasn’t crying then when he spoke to me.
Mr. HUBERT. He wasn’t crying then—in other words, what he was telling
you was that he and his sister had been crying?
Mr. PAUL. Had been crying.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that all he wanted to tell you?
Mr. PAUL. That’s all.
Mr. HUBERT. And you in effect told him you were sick and not to bother
you any more, would that be about it?
Mr. PAUL. And I went to sleep and that’s the last I talked to him.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, when was your next contact with Jack?
Mr. PAUL. When he was in jail.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you hear about the Oswald matter?
Mr. PAUL. Sunday morning—I was—I had just finished making out the
payroll.
Mr. HUBERT. At the Bull Pen?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; when John Jackson, my manager, called and the girl
answered the phone and she says—he says, “Oswald is shot.”
Mr. HUBERT. He said that to you?
Mr. PAUL. To the girl, and the girl relayed it to me. Just, “Oswald was
shot,” so I looked up and I says, “So what?” I mean—just the regular
coincidence. “So what?” 5 minutes later a fellow that lived around the
corner that knew me—he used to work at the Sky Club years ago, named
Howard something, came in and says, “Jack Ruby shot Oswald.”
Mr. HUBERT. That was in the Bull Pen at Arlington?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What was that man’s name?
Mr. PAUL. Howard something.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s his first name?
Mr. PAUL. Howard is his first name—I can’t think of the second
name—he’s just a customer there—he used to work a long time ago at the
Sky Club—I think he was—he used to be their cabinet man there, so I
says, “Go away.” I says, “Wait, I’ll call the house.” So, I called the
house and nobody answered.
Mr. HUBERT. You called Jack’s house?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; I called Jack’s house and nobody answered, so Jackson
and his wife came in and said, “Yes, we just saw it on TV that Jack
Ruby shot Oswald.” So, I says, “All right”—that’s when I called Tom
Howard.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time was it you called Howard, do you know?
Mr. PAUL. I would say it was about in between 11:30 and 12 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, between 10 minutes or 15 minutes after the
shooting, to 30 to 40 minutes after the shooting?
Mr. PAUL. Well, you know—shooting—we didn’t think he killed him.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I understand.
Mr. PAUL. So, I says, “Tom,” well Tom has been my lawyer for the
longest time.
Mr. HUBERT. He has been your lawyer?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; and Jack’s too.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack’s too?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; and I says, “Tom, see what you could do for Jack. I
heard he shot Oswald.” He says, “Okay,” and that’s it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that he was not aware that Oswald
had been shot?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t know whether he did or not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you when you talked to him that he was
not aware that Ruby had shot him?
Mr. PAUL. No; I just told him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be surprised?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything to indicate he knew about it?
Mr. PAUL. No; he didn’t. He says, “Okay, I’ll take care of it.” Those
are the words he said.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you asked him to see what he could do and
without indicating whether he knew about it or not, as far as you could
tell, he says, “I’ll see what I can do.” And that was the end of the
conversation?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any appointment to meet him yourself?
Mr. PAUL. Who—Tom?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. PAUL. No; I went down to his office anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you were at the Bull Pen at that conversation and you
went where?
Mr. PAUL. Downtown.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go?
Mr. PAUL. I went to the—John and I and the girl went down to the police
station and I saw Tom Howard there.
Mr. HUBERT. Inside the station?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Whereabouts was it, do you know?
Mr. PAUL. It was right off the entrance to the—as you walk in—do you
know where the entrance is when you walk in?
Mr. HUBERT. From Harwood Street?
Mr. PAUL. What?
Mr. HUBERT. On Harwood Street?
Mr. PAUL. No; it’s on Commerce.
Mr. HUBERT. Not the basement ramp?
Mr. PAUL. The basement ramp.
Mr. HUBERT. You went through the basement ramp?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was that, about?
Mr. PAUL. Maybe 1 o’clock, and so we meet him, and he says, “They won’t
let you see him anyway, you had better go over and stay at the office.
I think it’s on television.” So we walked over to his office and we
watched television until about 3 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. That was Jackson and you and Howard?
Mr. PAUL. No; not Howard—a girl Tammi True.
Mr. HUBERT. Tammi True and you went to Howard’s office?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And Howard was there?
Mr. PAUL. No; I was in the courthouse—he sent us over there.
Mr. HUBERT. Howard sent you to his office to watch television?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; to watch television.
Mr. HUBERT. And he went where, do you know?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what he did?
Mr. PAUL. No; he—some more lawyers they all got together and then they
left again and they came back again and riding into town, that’s when
we heard that Oswald was dead—died.
Mr. HUBERT. When you got to Howard’s office, you knew he had died?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Howard tell you he had tried to get a writ of habeas
corpus for Ruby?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And what happened to that proceeding, do you know?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. So you stayed there, you said, until about when?
Mr. PAUL. 3 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is Tammi True?
Mr. PAUL. That’s one of the girls that worked at the club before—she
was an entertainer.
Mr. HUBERT. Was she at the Bull Pen?
Mr. PAUL. No; she lives in Fort Worth.
Mr. HUBERT. How did she come to be riding with you and Jackson?
Mr. PAUL. She came up to the Bull Pen when she heard about Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you drive in her car?
Mr. PAUL. No; in Jackson’s car.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when she heard it at her home in Fort
Worth, she came to your place and the three of you came downtown and
stayed until 3 o’clock?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened?
Mr. PAUL. I went back—went back home.
Mr. HUBERT. The three of you?
Mr. PAUL. No; I went as far as—we took Tammi back and then I let
Jackson off and I went back to Dallas and went to the movies.
Mr. HUBERT. You took Tammi back to Fort Worth?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then came back to Arlington?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And left off Jackson?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; and I went back to the movies, because when I came in,
I says, “Anybody looking for me,” to the cashier, and she says, “A
reporter and a photographer was calling you.”
Mr. HUBERT. That was at the Bull Pen?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you drove in your car alone and you went to the movies
and I think you said you went to the Majestic?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you get there?
Mr. PAUL. I got there about 4:30.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you park your car some place?
Mr. PAUL. I parked it on the lot. You see, Sunday, you don’t have to
have no parking.
Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed in the Majestic and watched the show?
Mr. PAUL. I stayed there about an hour—I wasn’t interested too much in
the show, I just wanted to get away from everything.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come out of the show?
Mr. PAUL. It must have been about, oh, 6 something—I went back and I
went to Jackson’s house.
Mr. HUBERT. You went into the show about what time—4:30, you think?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there until about 6, when you came out,
about an hour and a half?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, what did you do?
Mr. PAUL. I went back and went over to Jackson’s house.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s on what street and where?
Mr. PAUL. That’s where I’m living now—Browning Street.
Mr. HUBERT. And you went to his house—go ahead?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; and stayed there about an hour or so.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was there with you?
Mr. PAUL. The girls.
Mr. HUBERT. What girls?
Mr. PAUL. Jackson’s girls.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean his daughters?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; two girls; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was just the three of you?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; they made me something to eat.
Mr. HUBERT. And you got there about what time?
Mr. PAUL. Then, I called the place and Jackson told me that the FBI was
looking for me and I kept on wondering what they wanted with me, and so
we stayed over there, and then his sister had had a little gathering
over at her house.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean Eva?
Mr. PAUL. No; Jackson’s sister, so we went over there.
Mr. HUBERT. Her name is Mrs. Gable?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; we had some ice cream and John walked in with the two
FBI men; that was 9 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mrs. Bowman?
Mr. PAUL. Mrs. Bowman?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. PAUL. Sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is she?
Mr. PAUL. She’s my ex-partner’s wife.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you living with her at that time?
Mr. PAUL. We were living together in a big house.
Mr. HUBERT. On that date?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; that’s way out in the country.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see her that day?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Not at all?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t think I did—I might have seen her when I left the
house.
Mr. HUBERT. And what time would that have been?
Mr. PAUL. Oh, in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t see her after Oswald was shot?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t think so—I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go back to the house after Oswald was shot?
Mr. PAUL. I think I went from the movies to the house and changed
clothes—that’s what I think I did, and then went over to Jackson’s
house.
Mr. HUBERT. When was it that you decided to take over the operation of
the club?
Mr. PAUL. That Monday after the shooting.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack ask you to do so?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir; I didn’t see Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Eva ask you to do so?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, why did you do it?
Mr. PAUL. Personally, I don’t know—I just did it on the spur of the
moment, and I have been sorry every day after that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask Jack, or send word to him that you were going
to do this?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask—well, weren’t you interested in salvaging some
of the debt that was owed to you if you could?
Mr. PAUL. If I could.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I meant—that was why you did it?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; but I saw what I was getting into—it turned out to be a
lemon.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, it turned out, as you say, to be a lemon, but your
motive was to see if you could operate it to see if anything could be
made out of it, to see if you could recover some of the debt that was
owed to you?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. And at the same time, I suppose, if you could make the
thing a success—whatever Jack’s interest was, it would be helpful to
him, too?
Is that a fair statement of what was running in your mind?
Mr. PAUL. Well, naturally—I mean——
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t want to put words in your mouth—if it’s not so,
tell me.
Mr. PAUL. Actually, it was on the spur of the moment that I did it, and
I learned right away it cost me money.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Eva object?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did any of his brothers or sisters object?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And you actually operated it for approximately 2½ months?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then why did you close it?
Mr. PAUL. Well, maybe I would still be operating it—no, I wasn’t going
to operate it any more. I told Eva, “I’m going to give you the stock,”
and let her do whatever she wanted to with it, because I couldn’t
do it any more. The second thing is, I had a broken foot—I couldn’t
make it any more over there. I was only coming up once a week, and the
thing was shot, and then on the same day I decided to that, the liquor
control board closed it up. They didn’t close it up, they sent me a
notice that I can’t sell beer, so I might as well close it up.
Mr. HUBERT. And it hasn’t been opened since then?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You paid the rent and all the bills during that time?
Mr. PAUL. When I was operating it?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you came out a deficit of about $3,000?
Mr. PAUL. At least—maybe more—I paid the Government $1,770.
Mr. HUBERT. What was that for?
Mr. PAUL. Back taxes.
Mr. HUBERT. Excise taxes?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; it was for September, November, October, December.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that excise tax?
Mr. PAUL. Excise tax—that’s the cabaret tax, they call it.
Mr. HUBERT. It doesn’t have anything to do with the social security or
withholding taxes?
Mr. PAUL. I paid them some of that too—there was only one person that
was getting paid—all the entertainers got their own—they don’t go under
social security.
Mr. HUBERT. They are self-employed?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a woman by the name of Bertha Cheek?
Mr. PAUL. What is her name?
Mr. HUBERT. Bertha Cheek.
Mr. PAUL. It doesn’t even ring a bell.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby ever tell you that just towards the end, in a week
or two prior to the death of Oswald, that he was trying to borrow some
money from her, and get her interested in opening a new cabaret?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Or doing something to the Carousel?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir; that name don’t even ring a bell to me.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know her at all and he never mentioned her?
Mr. PAUL. Never.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor did he mention that he was trying to raise any money?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I think perhaps you would be in as good a position as
anybody else to tell us some things about Jack’s personal life. As you
may know, there have been some rumors at least, that maybe Jack was a
homosexual?
Mr. PAUL. Oh, no—there was rumors?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, you have heard the rumors?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. We would like your opinion on that subject.
Mr. PAUL. Oh, no—no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You knew the man a long time?
Mr. PAUL. A long time.
Mr. HUBERT. It is your opinion he was not a homosexual?
Mr. PAUL. Positively.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his relationship with women generally; do you know?
Mr. PAUL. Well, he liked women.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have affairs with them?
Mr. PAUL. Yes—just different times, different women all the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he ever particularly attached to one?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?
Mr. PAUL. Let me remember that name again—mention some names, I can’t
think of the name.
Mr. HUBERT. Alice Nichols?
Mr. PAUL. Alice Nichols—yes, I think they were going around together
for about 10 or 11 years. I used to go out with them too.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his relationship to the girls who used to work in
his place, was it strictly a business relationship?
Mr. PAUL. With the girls—strictly business. He would like to make a
girl that would come up there, but not the girls that was working for
him.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he wouldn’t try to date the strippers or
waitresses?
Mr. PAUL. No—we used to take them out for coffee after they got
through, but that’s all.
Mr. HUBERT. I would like to show you a picture, or rather several
pictures which have already been identified, and I’m not going to give
them a new identification number. I’m going to show you a group of
five pictures, exact copies of which have already been identified in
connection with the deposition of Andrew Armstrong, as Exhibits 5300 A
through F and ask you if it is not so that Jack Ruby appears in each
one of those pictures?
Mr. PAUL. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, there are two girls in there?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. One has blonde hair and is wearing dark clothes and the
other is—has darker hair and is wearing a striped dress.
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us who they are, referring first to the one
with the blonde hair with the black dress?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, that’s Kathy Kay.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is the other one?
Mr. PAUL. This is Alice—somebody—I don’t know the second name anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. Alice Anderson?
Mr. PAUL. Yes—I never knew her second name. She worked there.
Mr. HUBERT. When did she work there?
Mr. PAUL. Alice was a waitress or a champagne girl, what you call them,
and she was the strip.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, Kathy Kay was a strip?
Mr. PAUL. Kathy Kay was a strip.
Mr. HUBERT. How long had the girl that you identify as Alice, to wit,
the girl in those pictures with the striped dress, how long had she
been working at the club?
Mr. PAUL. Well, from the time he made a burlesque out of it, she used
to work a couple of weeks, a couple of months, then quit and come back
and work another couple of months or couple of weeks and then quit. She
was never a steady girl.
Mr. HUBERT. Is she married?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he date her?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you positive or is it that you just don’t know?
Mr. PAUL. That I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. But I take it from the way you answered the question that
you knew him so well that you probably would have known it if he had?
Mr. PAUL. Yes—if he did I would have known.
Mr. HUBERT. He would tell you that?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He told you about his affairs with women, is that right?
Mr. PAUL. No; not always—he told me about affairs he wanted to tell me
about, let’s put it that way.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there lots of them?
Mr. PAUL. Well, there were quite a few.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of a girl by the name of Joyce McDonald?
Mr. PAUL. Joyce?
Mr. HUBERT. I think her stage name was Joy Dale?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize her in the photo I am now showing you?
Mr. PAUL. Oh, I recognize her.
Mr. HUBERT. This photograph has been identified in connection with the
deposition of Andrew Armstrong, as Exhibit 5301 A through E, and there
are five pictures here showing a man and two girls—Jack Ruby is the
man, of course; is that right?
Mr. PAUL. I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. And the girl on your right, as you look at the picture?
Mr. PAUL. I’m not seeing it.
Mr. HUBERT. I would like for you to identify both girls, but do so in
such a way that the record can show it—in other words, when you say,
“this” it won’t show up on the record, but when you say “this” you must
say the girl on the left-hand side of the picture as you are looking at
it—is that who you mean?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; that’s Dale.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s the girl called Joyce Day?
Mr. PAUL. Joy Dale.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s the one on the right-hand side of the picture?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; the one on the right-hand side is—what do you call her
again—that little girl up that went to court?
Mr. HUBERT. Little Lynn?
Mr. PAUL. Little Lynn.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s Karen Bennett, did you know her as that?
Mr. PAUL. No; I never knew her as that, all I knew her was Little Lynn.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what the relationship between this Dale girl
and Jack Ruby was that you have identified in Exhibit 5301 A through E,
the deposition of Andrew Armstrong?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t know what Andrew knew, but I know nothing about her.
I know she worked there—she was a stripper.
Mr. HUBERT. So far as you know, was there any romantic relationship or
sex relationship?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t know. I wouldn’t say “yes” and I wouldn’t say “no.”
Mr. HUBERT. You just don’t know?
Mr. PAUL. Anything I don’t know—I can’t say I know.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s absolutely correct. I am simply asking you because
you have been a friend a long time and as you said a moment ago, he
told you some of the things that he wanted you to know?
Mr. PAUL. Well; I don’t think he wanted me to know about any of the
girls that worked in the club, even if he did have affairs with
them—that would be—I probably would say something to him, but on the
outside, I know a lot of girls that he had affairs with.
Mr. HUBERT. I’m now going to show you a picture which has been
identified as one of the pictures in Exhibit 5303 A through M
deposition on Andrew Armstrong, a picture which shows a girl in a
bikini suit, a blond girl. There seems to be two sailors in the picture
and on the right-hand side of the picture as you look at it, there is
a rather large man in a white shirt with his left elbow leaning on the
stage, and I ask you if you know who the girl is, do you recognize her?
Mr. PAUL. That’s the same Kathy Kay.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s Kathy Kay?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is the man, the fat man, that I have referred to with
the white shirt, the very heavy man?
Mr. PAUL. This one over here?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. PAUL. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him there?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You never did?
Mr. PAUL. No—there isn’t a familiar face in there. What is he supposed
to be? No answers [laughing].
Mr. HUBERT. I will show you now two pictures that have been previously
identified as Exhibit 5304 A and B in connection with the deposition
of Andrew Armstrong, the first one showing a girl serving a man who is
seated, and there is apparently a boy in the background, and I ask you
if you can identify that place, first of all, is that the Carousel?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recognize the place at all?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the girl is who is in the stripper suit?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the man is, sitting down at the table?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who that bartender is standing at the back?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Mickey Ryan?
Mr. PAUL. No—I might have heard the name but I never knew a guy with a
name like that.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recognize the man at the bar?
Mr. PAUL. No—it’s not in the Carousel, that’s for sure. The Carousel
had no cloths on the tables.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor did it have a bar?
Mr. PAUL. It had a bar.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean, not for liquor.
Mr. PAUL. No; that’s right—that looks like a private club.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you familiar with the notebooks and memo books that
Ruby kept?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see them at all?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that one of the girls in the club had a boy friend
named Tommy, do you know who that was—Tommy?
Mr. PAUL. The only real boy friends that I can give you the name of and
she got married to the boy recently.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?
Mr. PAUL. He was in the police department, but I can’t think of his
name. He made her give up the business and they got married and went to
California, but you know, talking about boy friends, those girls have
boy friends all the time—they are different boy friends—you never know
which one is which. I can’t remember one name from another.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, here’s what I wanted to get at—after you took over
the club, you apparently hired someone to collect the cover charge at
the front?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He was a gray-haired man, I’m told?
Mr. PAUL. No, it was Leo Torti.
Mr. HUBERT. [Spelling] T-o-r-t-i?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have a gray-haired man there?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you get him, had he been there before?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He had worked there before?
Mr. PAUL. Well, he didn’t actually work, he used to help Eva, and when
Eva closed that place down he came to help there, but he never got paid
for anything—just, I took him home and I took him out for a bite to eat.
Mr. HUBERT. How old a man would he have been?
Mr. PAUL. Forty or forty something—he isn’t gray. I’m the only gray man
that was there.
Mr. HUBERT. There was no gray man who was on the door collecting?
Mr. PAUL. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Eva close up the Vegas?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, she closed it up and then she sold it.
Mr. HUBERT. When—before the Carousel was closed up?
Mr. PAUL. Oh, yes, she closed it up right after New Year’s.
Mr. HUBERT. Right after Ruby was put in jail?
Mr. PAUL. No, right after New Year’s.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean she sold it?
Mr. PAUL. She sold it.
Mr. HUBERT. Whom did she sell it to?
Mr. PAUL. She sold it to two men and a woman that formed a corporation
and bought it. It’s still called the Vegas Club—they’ve got it in the
paper “under new management—Vegas Club.” I don’t even know who they are.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I handed you at the beginning of the deposition, or
even before the deposition began, a number of sheets of paper, the
first group numbering nine pages, purporting to be a report of an
interview of you by the FBI agents Lish [spelling] L-i-s-h and Barratt
[spelling] B-a-r-r-a-t-t, relating to an interview with you on November
24, 1963, running, as I said, for nine pages.
For the purpose of identification, I am marking the first page as
follows: “Dallas, Texas, April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5319, Deposition of
Ralph Paul,” and I am putting my name on the first page, and also
writing my initials on the lower right-hand corner of every one of the
other pages.
Now, I ask you if you have had an opportunity to read that document,
now identified as Exhibit 5319?
Mr. PAUL. What do you mean?
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had a chance to read it?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Does it represent the truth as far as you know?
Mr. PAUL. As far as I know.
Mr. HUBERT. Are there any corrections you want to make or errors you
want to correct in it?
Mr. PAUL. Well, you asked me the same thing——
Mr. HUBERT. By referring specifically to Exhibit 5319, you see, is
there anything in Exhibit 5319 that is not the truth as far as you
know, in this document here?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, that’s why I asked you to read it, so you could tell
me whether there is anything you want to change in there and you may
take your time with it—I don’t want to rush you at all.
Mr. PAUL. This page alone, or the whole thing?
Mr. HUBERT. The whole thing.
Mr. PAUL. I don’t know what I could change.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you read it?
Mr. PAUL. I think I did—in what respect are you asking me that?
Mr. HUBERT. I just want to know if everything in there is correct, and
to give you the opportunity of changing anything in there that is not
correct.
Mr. PAUL. Well, I told you the same thing that you asked me—that’s all
here—I can’t change it in any way.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you can if it is not the truth, because all we want
is the truth.
Mr. PAUL. That’s what I told you—the truth.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, are you willing to state, then, that the facts
related, the statements made in the documents, consisting of nine pages
which I have now identified as Exhibit 5319, are correct?
Mr. PAUL. As far as I can recall they are correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have anything to add that document that you think of
right now?
Mr. PAUL. As far as I could tell, when they asked me those questions, I
told them that was that.
Mr. HUBERT. And this seems to be a true and fair report of the
interview with you?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything you want to delete from that because it
is wrong?
Mr. PAUL. How is it wrong?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, if it is not wrong, I would take it you would not
want to delete it. That’s what I’m trying to do—is to ask you if there
is anything in there that’s incorrect, because what we are seeking to
get is the truth.
Mr. PAUL. You think this is wrong?
Mr. HUBERT. No, sir; I didn’t suggest it was wrong. I want to ask
you—since you have had an opportunity to read it——
Mr. PAUL. Everything I told them at the time was the right thing—I told
them.
Mr. HUBERT. And that seems to be a fair and honest report of the
interview you had with them?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, that’s all I wanted to know about that.
Now, there is another document which purports to be an interview with
you by FBI Agent Clements.
Mr. PAUL. On the telephone.
Mr. HUBERT. On November 28, 1963?
Mr. PAUL. Yes, over the telephone.
Mr. HUBERT. Which I am marking for purposes of identification as
follows: “Dallas, Texas, April 15, 1964, Exhibit 5320, Deposition of
Ralph Paul,” and I am signing my name on that document. That document
contains only one page and it refers——
Mr. PAUL. To the stock deal.
Mr. HUBERT. To some stock deal.
Mr. PAUL. Let me see it just a minute.
Mr. HUBERT. This document relates to some conversation with Special
Agent Clements, which was had with you, and it is a report of it. Now,
will you tell me—I think that that conversation was over the phone?
Mr. PAUL. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t believe the document so indicates, but if that
is one thing we have learned from this is that that was over the
phone—does it fairly state the content of the conversation you had with
the agent?
Mr. PAUL. Yes; he asked me what was my interest in the club and I told
him I got a certificate of 50 shares, which I received from Jack Ruby
because he wanted to protect the money I loaned him, that if anything
goes wrong—well, he didn’t put it in so many words—he put it in a
different—collateral—you know what that means—and he said, “Is that
what you mean?” And I said, “I guess that’s what it is supposed to be.”
I told him that Jack Ruby and Slayton formed the Sovereign Club and it
was called the S. and R., Incorporated. I never knew anything about the
Sovereign Club, Incorporated, that it was then terminated and became
the Carousel Club, which he gave it a name.
Now, I don’t know whether the Carousel Club was incorporated, and I
said, “I think it is Earl, Ruby’s brother, that had the 500 other
shares,” but I didn’t know for sure, that’s what I told him. He said
he believes Earl, Ruby’s brother. I was confused with the question of
whether I owned stock or not, which I was. I thought it was merely—he
gives me the stock because, like I told you, when he wanted to sell the
place he asked me for the stock so he could sell the place.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, at the time you spoke to him, in fact you were
confused as to what the situation was?
Mr. PAUL. I sure was.
Mr. HUBERT. What I’m asking you, is—is this a fair statement of what
you told him?
Mr. PAUL. I think I gave him a fair statement right up to the
minute—not that statement—that statement isn’t up to the minute, but up
to the time.
Mr. HUBERT. But at the time—it was accurate?
Mr. PAUL. At the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been interviewed by any member of the
President’s Commission before?
Mr. PAUL. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Paul, one final thing—we have the two statements
that you have given to the FBI, and you have what you have told us
tonight—do you think that putting those two things together we have
just about all you know about Jack Ruby and about what he had to do
with the slaying of Oswald and so forth?
Mr. PAUL. I don’t know nothing about the slaying of Oswald—that’s for
sure.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that, but we know all you know about it when
we have what you told us tonight and this statement—there’s nothing
else?
Mr. PAUL. I just told you all I know about Jack Ruby for 15 years.
Mr. HUBERT. There’s nothing we don’t know that you know?
Mr. PAUL. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a fair statement?
Mr. PAUL. If I knew any more I would be willing to tell you, because
you didn’t pull the words out of my mouth either.
Mr. HUBERT. No; that’s correct.
Mr. PAUL. I spoke to you as I knew it.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else to add?
Mr. PAUL. No—really, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, thank you, sir. I appreciate your coming in and I am
sorry it took so long.
Mr. PAUL. Well, that’s perfectly all right.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much for coming in.
Mr. PAUL. All right, thank you.
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR
The testimony of George Senator was taken at 9:45 a.m., on April 21,
1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W.
Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s
Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of George Senator beginning at 9:45
a.m.
Mr. Senator, my name is Leon Hubert and this is Mr. Burt Griffin. We
are both members of the advisory staff of the President’s Commission.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963,
the Joint Resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of procedure
adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and
the joint resolution, we have both been authorized to take a sworn
deposition from you, Mr. Senator.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Senator, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and about
Jack Ruby.
Now, Mr. Senator, I think you have appeared today by virtue of written
request made to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff
of the President’s Commission. Is that a fact, sir?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive that letter?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the date of it?
Mr. SENATOR. April 16, 1964.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive it?
Mr. SENATOR. I received it Saturday. I don’t know what date it was.
What was the date Saturday?
Mr. HUBERT. Saturday would have been the 18th.
Now, under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a
3-day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition, but the
rules adopted by the Commission also provide that a witness may waive
this notice, and I ask you now whether you do waive the notice in the
event that you did not get the full 3 days.
Mr. SENATOR. We will continue.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand by your answer that you say that you do waive
it.
Mr. SENATOR. I waive it.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, Mr. Senator. Will you rise now and take the oath?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this
matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
Mr. SENATOR. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Now will you state your full name?
Mr. SENATOR. George Senator.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, Mr. Senator?
Mr. SENATOR. Fifty years old. I was born in Gloversville, N.Y.
Mr. HUBERT. And when?
Mr. SENATOR. September 4, 1913.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your present address, that is residence?
Mr. SENATOR. Right now?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. 2255 Grand Concourse, Bronx, N.Y.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that your permanent residence?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I mean I just come up, you know, I just came to New
York about 2½ weeks ago and am staying with my sister temporarily.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you propose to go to another place, to move to another
place?
Mr. SENATOR. Eventually I will, yes; in New York, but momentarily I do
not know where.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you are staying at your sister’s home
temporarily?
Mr. SENATOR. Temporarily.
Mr. HUBERT. But your purpose is to live in New York?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you will, when you find an apartment, some other place
to live, move out from your sister’s house?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you would go over briefly in your own words the
facts of your life, particularly where you lived, and your occupation,
beginning actually with your education.
Mr. SENATOR. My education was up to the eighth grade.
Mr. HUBERT. And where was that?
Mr. SENATOR. Gloversville, N.Y.
Mr. HUBERT. Then after you finished the eighth grade, what did you do?
Mr. SENATOR. I moved to New York and went to work.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean New York City?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; New York City. I lived with my sister, too. I mean I
moved in with my sister at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the same sister you are now living with?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is her name, by the way?
Mr. SENATOR. Freda Weisberg, Mrs. A. J. Weisberg.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live with her?
Mr. SENATOR. Originally, let me say approximately about 3 years. I went
back and forth actually from New York back to home. Of course, I was
only in my teens then.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of work did you do?
Mr. SENATOR. In New York I was working in a silk house, I was working
for a wholesaler where we delivered silk to the dress manufacturer.
Mr. HUBERT. And you continued in that occupation——
Mr. SENATOR. Just in my young teens.
Mr. HUBERT. Until you were how old?
Mr. SENATOR. Possibly about 18, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. You were living with your sister as you said?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, at age 18, did your life take a change by way of
occupation and residence?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I got sick a couple of times so every time I got
sick I went home to mother. I went back home. Of course, the distance,
was about 190 miles from my home town to New York City. At one time
I had pleurisy, went back home and stayed a year. Another time I had
peritonitis. I went back home again.
Mr. HUBERT. This was after age 18 or before?
Mr. SENATOR. No; this is now after 18.
Mr. HUBERT. Then I take it that after age 18 and for a period of 1 or
2 years you were not working because of illness and you were staying
mostly with your mother at home?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; well, my brother had a restaurant, or rather, still
does. He has a restaurant. I used to help him up there.
Mr. HUBERT. Where? What place was that?
Mr. SENATOR. Gloversville, N.Y. He had a restaurant by his name, by his
last name.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work with him?
Mr. SENATOR. On and off, this is a rough guess, it has been so many
years. I would probably say maybe a couple of years, something like
that.
Mr. HUBERT. At which time you lived with your mother?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, I lived home.
Mr. HUBERT. Would that take us then in your life to about age 22?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say around there, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened after those days of your life?
Mr. SENATOR. Then I went back. I can’t quote you the exact years, but I
went back to New York.
Mr. HUBERT. City, you mean?
Mr. SENATOR. New York City, and I went to work for a—I was jerking
sodas in the early thirties. That is when I was in my twenties yet then.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live during that period?
Mr. SENATOR. I was still home with my sister. I went back. I shuttled
either from my sister to my mother.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not have any residence of your own?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did she live during that period?
Mr. SENATOR. My sister? She lived in the Bronx, still does.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean the same address?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the address, or were there several? I am
talking now about this other period, you see, that is to say when you——
Mr. SENATOR. I can think of the streets but I probably could not think
of the numbers.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, that is all right. Give us the streets.
Mr. SENATOR. All right. When I originally came to New York it was on
Davidson Avenue in the Bronx.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been when you were about 12 years old?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no. I first came to New York when I was 15.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did she live then?
Mr. SENATOR. On Davidson Avenue in the Bronx. Then from Davidson I
think I moved to Walton Avenue. These are all close by, these streets,
you know. I would probably say a distance of maybe 4, 5, or 6 blocks,
something of that nature. Then I lived there—I am trying to think now.
I have to jump back a lot of years and can’t think of these outright.
Mr. HUBERT. We understand that and we understand therefore that your
answers must be approximations.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, they are approximations. When I got this job jerking
sodas there, now I’m in my twenties already. Of course, this is in the
1930 years. I was approximately around 25 when I was working in the
Bronx jerking sodas and still living with my sister.
Mr. HUBERT. That was around 1938, I take it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, and 1939; 1938 and 1939.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the place at which you worked?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, sure, J. S. Krums, chocolatiers. That is on the Grand
Concourse.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say I may have been there around 2 years.
Now this is roughly guessing. Then the place went out on strike and I
went out of a job. Then from there, two other fellows who were employed
with us, we all went down to Florida. We went down to Florida for the
winter and got a job there for $14 a week and stayed all winter, then
we come back again.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work were you doing and who was your employer?
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Or employers?
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t remember. It was a cafeteria with a soda
fountain and I worked at the soda fountain. It has been so many, many
years.
Mr. HUBERT. Who were the other two people that you went with?
Mr. SENATOR. One fellow, his name was Ike Heilberun, and the other is—I
can’t remember his name.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen either of those two people in the last 10 or
20 years?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say—no, one I haven’t seen in many, many years. As
a matter of fact, I think even before the war.
Mr. HUBERT. Which one, the one whose name you don’t remember?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And the other one?
Mr. SENATOR. The other I think the last time I saw him must have been
maybe around 6 years or 7 years ago. He is down in Florida.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work is he doing?
Mr. SENATOR. He is in the stationery business, if he still is, I mean.
He was.
Mr. HUBERT. And you met him in connection with work or socially or how,
that is 6 years ago?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; it happened to be I went down there. I went down
there for a vacation there.
Mr. HUBERT. And you looked him up?
Mr. SENATOR. And I looked him up and I found him and when I found him
he was in the stationery end.
Mr. HUBERT. How extended was your visit with him then?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, just casual. I would probably say maybe I saw him two
or three times.
Mr. HUBERT. No business relations?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; no business relations whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s go back now and pick up the time when you came back
from Florida. I say “came back.” I assume you went back to New York.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I went back to New York.
Mr. HUBERT. And tell us again——
Mr. SENATOR. I do not remember if I stayed in New York or went back
home now, because I would say on and off I had worked for my brother at
various times.
Mr. HUBERT. Your brother?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is his name?
Mr. SENATOR. Jake Senator. Senator’s Restaurant in Gloversville, N.Y. I
worked on and off at his place many times.
Mr. HUBERT. How far have you progressed in your own mind as to this
chronicle of your life? We are up to what year now that you were
working for your brother?
Mr. SENATOR. At the time I enlisted. In other words, when the war broke
out I enlisted down at Albany, N.Y., at the Federal Building in Albany,
N.Y. That was in August of 1941, I believe. I think it was August 20 or
August 21, 1941, and I was with my brother at the time when I enlisted.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember working for the Admiral Hotel in Miami
Beach and the Times Square Cafeteria?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is it. That is the place, the Times Square
Cafeteria.
Mr. HUBERT. And David and Elizabeth Rosner at the Astor Hotel?
Mr. SENATOR. It could be possible. I just don’t remember. It could be
possible.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were in Miami and worked for several
people whose names I have mentioned during the winter of 1939–40 and
until about the end of the season in Miami Beach, I take it?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you enlist?
Mr. SENATOR. I enlisted August 20 or 21 of 1941.
Mr. HUBERT. That was before Pearl Harbor then?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what you did or where you lived from the
summer of 1940?
Mr. SENATOR. What is that?
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what occupation you had or where you lived
from the summer of 1940 when you returned from Miami to New York until
you entered into the service in August of 1941?
Mr. SENATOR. I believe I was back home with my brother.
Mr. HUBERT. That is working for him?
Mr. SENATOR. The restaurant, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in the service?
Mr. SENATOR. I’ll have to read it, or I’ll let you read it.
Mr. HUBERT. No: that is all right. You served for the duration of the
war, I suppose? You hand me now a little document which is a laminated
copy.
Mr. SENATOR. The reason I handed you that is because I lost my original
and I am happy that I have got that.
Mr. HUBERT. You were honorably discharged from the Army of the United
States on September 9, 1945, given to you at the Separation Center,
Fort Dix, N.J? This reflects also that you were a staff sergeant.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That your serial number was 12006042, and that at the time
of your discharge you were with the 101st Bomber Fortress Squadron?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; when I came out.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Then after you left the service in September of
1945, where did you go and what did you do?
Mr. SENATOR. When I came back out of the service, this fellow Ike
Heilberun, who I mentioned living down there, we went into the
luncheonette business and lasted approximately about a year and lost
our shirts.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of that? Is that the outfit called the
Denise Foods, Inc.?
Mr. SENATOR. Where is that located? Do you have the location on that?
Mr. HUBERT. 254 West 35th Street.
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t remember the name. I remember the street. That
is why I asked you.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, that was a corporation formed by you and
this man you talked about?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. We bought somebody out, that is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were occupied with that endeavor through most of
1946?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say approximately about that to the best of my
knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. And where did you live then?
Mr. SENATOR. I was living—of course, I can’t remember if I got married
before that or after that.
Mr. HUBERT. But sometime along in there after you left the service, you
got married?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I believe I got married in January 1946, if I am not
mistaken.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of the lady you married?
Mr. SENATOR. Sherley Baren.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell that?
Mr. SENATOR. B-a-r-e-n.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you still married to her?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you divorced?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When? Approximately.
Mr. SENATOR. Approximately about 7 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Ago?
Mr. SENATOR. Approximately, I’m not sure of the date. I’d say
approximately about that.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you lived together as man and wife
approximately for 10 years?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Seven years ago would be 1957. You said that you married
her in January of 1946. Maybe you did not live together that long.
Maybe the divorce came after you had physically separated.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Actually, we had been separated I would probably say
around 3 years, I think. I think it must have been around 3 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Before the divorce?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I think that is it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any children of that marriage?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I have one son 16 years old.
Mr. HUBERT. He is now 16 years old?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is his name?
Mr. SENATOR. Bobby.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you divorced?
Mr. SENATOR. Through the mail. She was in Miami and I was in Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. But where were the divorce proceedings actually instituted?
Mr. SENATOR. In Miami.
Mr. HUBERT. She brought the divorce suit?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Has she remarried?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know to whom?
Mr. SENATOR. His name is Milton Wechsler. I am not sure of the spelling
of it. I think it is W-e-c-h-s-l-e-r. I think that is how you spell it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where they live?
Mr. SENATOR. Coral Gables.
Mr. HUBERT. Now would you tell us of your occupation and residences
after your marriage, say from January 1946 forward?
Mr. SENATOR. After I went out of business, after my partner and I went
out of business, I moved down to Miami and I had two or three odd jobs
there.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. SENATOR. At these jobs, do you mean?
Mr. HUBERT. No.
Mr. SENATOR. Or Miami?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I stayed in Miami, I would say, around 7 or 8 years. As a
rough guess, something like that, offhand.
Mr. HUBERT. You had a number of jobs during the first year that you got
there; is that right?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work did you do?
Mr. SENATOR. Restaurant-type work.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice that your social security records indicate that
you either had no earnings or at least that none were reported for the
second half of 1947 and the first half of 1948, approximately a year.
Can you explain that?
Mr. SENATOR. 1947 and 1948?
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, for the third and fourth quarters from
a social security point of view of 1947 and the first and second
quarters——
Mr. SENATOR. Of 1948?
Mr. HUBERT. Of 1948, so it would be roughly from July 1947 to June of
1948 there were no earnings reported.
Mr. SENATOR. 1947 and 1948?
Mr. HUBERT. After which—this may assist your memory—for the third
quarter of 1948, that is say from July on, you report having worked at
the Lake Carrolton Club Grill in Pike. N.H.
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So, perhaps if you remember working in New Hampshire, you
can back off and tell us what happened in that year when there were no
earnings reported. This may assist you too. The social security records
show that in the first quarter of 1947, that would have been January,
February, and March, you apparently worked for the T-A Hensroost.
Mr. SENATOR. I believe that was the first job I had when I got down in
Miami, if I am not mistaken. I think that was the first job I got. That
was an open stand on the oceanfront.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that you worked there actually for the
first 6 months?
Mr. SENATOR. At the Hensroost?
Mr. HUBERT. Of 1947.
Mr. SENATOR. At Hensroost? I can’t quote how long I worked there, but I
know that I worked there.
Mr. HUBERT. Now then, perhaps we can reconstruct the thing, because
you apparently left there at the Hensroost in midsummer of 1947, and
then you pick up in midsummer of 1948 in New Hampshire, and it is the
intervening year that I would like to have you cover.
Mr. SENATOR. Wait a minute. Oh, then I think after that, yes, I was out
of a job for a while and I don’t recall how long. Then I got a job in
another little luncheonette for a while and I don’t know how long that
was.
Mr. HUBERT. It may be that you did not have enough earnings to require
reporting them, you see. What I am trying to do is assist your memory.
Do you recall leaving Miami Beach to go to New Hampshire?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure; I remember going. I don’t remember what year,
but I remember going, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time of the year, whatever year it was?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I went there for one summer.
Mr. HUBERT. For the season?
Mr. SENATOR. The season; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Your wife went with you?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. She stayed in Miami?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When you finished the season there, what happened?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I come back and I was—I’m trying to think. What year
was that, 1940-what?
Mr. HUBERT. It was the last half of 1948. Perhaps I can assist your
memory too by pointing out that your social security records indicate
that you worked for T-A Troops.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, that is the place I was trying to mention to you but
I couldn’t think of it. Now I don’t remember if I worked for that place
after I come back or before. That is the thing I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. You worked for that place quite a length of time, I believe.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long? Do you remember?
Mr. SENATOR. Gee, I don’t remember how long I worked there.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live when you were working for Troops?
Mr. SENATOR. Northwest Fourth Terrace.
Mr. HUBERT. Miami Beach?
Mr. SENATOR. No; Miami.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the restaurant was in Miami Beach?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. On Collins Avenue?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You lived in Miami City itself?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you living with your wife then?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what your next move was?
Mr. SENATOR. I believe my next move is I got a job selling. I was
broken in selling women’s apparel, if I recall right.
Mr. HUBERT. Women’s apparel?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Before we leave the Miami Beach situation, what was
the cause of your leaving Miami Beach and the Miami area, because
apparently you did?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean when I went to Texas?
Mr. HUBERT. No, when you left Miami you did not go directly to Texas,
did you?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.
Mr. HUBERT. You did?
Mr. SENATOR. Sure. Come this May 15, and I think I am pretty well on
the date, I have been in Texas 10 years.
Mr. HUBERT. So you moved to Texas in 1954?
Mr. SENATOR. May of 1954.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember working for the Rhea Manufacturing Co.?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; out of Milwaukee, Wis. That was my start. Is that in
the year of 1950, something like that? I don’t remember, 1949, 1948?
Mr. HUBERT. The social security records indicate 1951.
Mr. SENATOR. Is that what it is? I just don’t remember. It could be
1951.
Mr. HUBERT. You were working for Rhea Manufacturing Co., and the
records also show that you worked for Smoler Bros., Inc., in Chicago.
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. The Rhea Manufacturing Co. was in Milwaukee, Wis. Did you
live in Milwaukee?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And in Chicago?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words——
Mr. SENATOR. I only worked for them out of there. In other words, the
only time that I ever went there is when they had sales meetings, when
they called the people in for sales meetings.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you living then?
Mr. SENATOR. In Miami.
Mr. HUBERT. That same residence?
Mr. SENATOR. Northwest Fourth Terrace?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your area, sales area?
Mr. SENATOR. Florida.
Mr. HUBERT. Just Florida?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You sold women’s apparel?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Wholesale?
Mr. SENATOR. Wholesalers. They were manufacturers.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice from these records, too, that apparently during
the years 1951, 1952, and 1953, your employer seems to alternate
between Smoler Bros., Inc., and Hartley’s, whose address is given as
144 East Flagler in Miami.
Mr. SENATOR. Hartley’s is a large—it almost looks like a department
store but it is not. It is a large specialty shop.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you working for both?
Mr. SENATOR. The only time I worked for Hartley’s was, I think it
was either one or two seasons. I don’t remember which. Just for the
Christmas holidays only.
Mr. HUBERT. When you did work for Hartley’s, did you leave Smoler’s?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Smoler’s continued right on?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. In other words, I would probably say maybe a week or
something like that before the Christmas holidays I worked in there. I
would say approximately like that. Approximately a week or something
like that.
Mr. HUBERT. These records also indicate that actually you worked for
Smoler’s out of Chicago, wherever you actually lived or whatever your
territory might have been, until 1958; is that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Smoler’s is the one who forced me to Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that.
Mr. SENATOR. There were two men they were releasing in Dallas, Tex.,
and it happened to be I was in Atlanta, Ga., and it happened to be on a
Friday, I recall this very distinctly. My boss called me and I couldn’t
imagine what he was calling me for. He said, “George, we are releasing
a couple of men and we want you to go to Dallas.” And I didn’t want to
go. But he said, “You are going.” So I wound up in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that? I know you said is was a Friday, but do you
remember the year, the month?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Oh, wait; yes. It was 10 years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. 1954?
Mr. SENATOR. Because I have been there—come next month, it will be 10
years I have been there.
Mr. HUBERT. So the telephone conversation on Friday would have been in
May of 1954, on a Friday?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Actually, May 15, I think you said.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I think I arrived in Dallas, I think it was May 15.
Mr. HUBERT. Did your wife go with you?
Mr. SENATOR. No; she wouldn’t go.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been living together up to that time?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that the cause of your separation?
Mr. SENATOR. I believe that is.
Mr. HUBERT. She never did go to Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. No; she wouldn’t go, and I had a job to hold down.
Mr. HUBERT. She kept the child?
Mr. SENATOR. She kept the child.
Mr. HUBERT. And still has it?
Mr. SENATOR. And still has it, and, of course, there could have been
a possibility if I didn’t go—I only say possibility—that I could have
been released from my job. This, I only say, there could have been a
possibility.
Mr. HUBERT. Now tell us what you did then in Dallas. You continued to
work, I take it, for Smoler’s?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live? Can you give us a list of the various
places where you lived?
Mr. SENATOR. The first year I was just living, you know, in motels,
from one place, you know, wherever I was, because I was traveling the
State of Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your territory there?
Mr. SENATOR. Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. The whole of Texas?
Mr. SENATOR. I started off the whole thing and then I wound down until
I probably wound up with just a corner of it. And when I wound up with
that there I said this is not for me, because I can’t make it on only
part of Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, that comes a little later.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live in Dallas? Give us a list of your
various addresses just roughly.
Mr. SENATOR. The first place that I actually centrally located in, I
don’t remember the name of the place but I do remember the name of the
street.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. SENATOR. I could go to the place and know where it is but I can’t
think of the name of the place, which was on McKinney Avenue.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I would probably say, I’d have to guess, I
would probably say maybe 6 months to a year. I’m not sure now.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it an apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it was an apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you alone?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I was with a couple other boys.
Mr. HUBERT. Who were they?
Mr. SENATOR. One fellow by the name of George Guest. George Guest, he
was a, what do you call them, xylophones. He was a musician.
Mr. HUBERT. He played the instrument called the xylophone?
Mr. SENATOR. What is the one with the woods? It is not xylophone. What
is the one that is made out of wood?
Mr. HUBERT. Marimba?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, it is the marimba. Is the marimba made out of wood?
Mr. HUBERT. As a musical instrument?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. A percussion instrument?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did he work?
Mr. SENATOR. He played wherever he got engagements. He got booked
locally, out of town.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was the other one?
Mr. SENATOR. The other one who stayed with us a short while, his name
was Mort Seder.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he do?
Mr. SENATOR. He sells men’s apparel, traveling salesman.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you maintained contact with either of those?
Mr. SENATOR. George Guest got married many, many, years ago. The last I
heard that at that time he had moved to, I think it was Fort Lauderdale
by the sea.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the other one?
Mr. SENATOR. Seder I have seen, the last time I ran across Seder, of
course, he is always traveling, the last time I saw him was, I would
probably say in the last 2 months.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him often prior to that?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure. We lived together for a while. We lived together.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you lived together initially?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then lived together after that?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes. Wait a minute, I’m trying to figure how we broke
up. Oh, yes, we lived together for a while but he wanted his own place.
He wanted to live alone. At that time he was not doing too well and he
couldn’t stand the pressure of having an apartment by himself, at that
time. So we lived together.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the first 6 months or so when you settled in that
place?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. It happened to be that we both almost got divorced
around the same time. He was living in Houston at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, so that accounts, I take it, for your residence
at the McKinney Street address.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that broke up?
Mr. SENATOR. No; from there it broke up and Seder and I moved to
another place.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?
Mr. SENATOR. That was on Shadyside Lane.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long did you live there?
Mr. SENATOR. This is another guess. I would probably say 6 months to a
year, with a guess again, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. That is you and Seder?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Seder.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go from there?
Mr. SENATOR. Columbia Avenue.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say we may have lived there maybe a
couple of years. I’m not sure now.
Mr. HUBERT. You were still with Seder then?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and that is where he wanted to have his own place.
Mr. HUBERT. So he left you, as it were?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you remain at the Columbia Avenue address?
Mr. SENATOR. I remained there for a while.
Mr. HUBERT. And then what happened?
Mr. SENATOR. I remained there for a while and then he stayed there. I’m
trying to figure where I went from there.
Mr. HUBERT. After you left Seder, if you left the apartment in which
you were living with Seder at Columbia Avenue, do you recall whether
you then——
Mr. SENATOR. I stayed there for a while.
Mr. HUBERT. You stayed there for a while alone?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I had my own place.
Mr. HUBERT. When you moved next, did you move in with somebody else or
were you alone?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I moved in with somebody else. I’m trying to think
where, though.
Mr. HUBERT. It might help if you remember who it was that you lived
with?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I moved to the Oasis.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that an apartment house?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; these are all apartment houses—the various places.
They have all been apartment houses. That was on Live Oak. I believe
that is where I moved next.
Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you share that apartment with?
Mr. SENATOR. I stayed there with two other boys, Ronnie Unger and
Kenny—I can’t think of his last name.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there?
Mr. SENATOR. Pardon me?
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there?
Mr. SENATOR. Let me get to this first, please. After I moved, when I
moved in with them, the thing I was trying to figure out before I got
there, now I got through with Smoler Brothers and I can’t think of what
year. Do you have a listing of it?
Mr. HUBERT. Our records indicate you last worked for Smoler’s, or
rather, that there is no more income reported from Smoler’s after July
of 1958.
Mr. SENATOR. That is probably when I got through, in 1958. That is when
I got through with Smoler’s, in 1958. I don’t remember when I was with
Smoler’s that I was still living at Columbia Avenue or not. I may have
been living there yet. I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, we have the sequence of your addresses and the last
place was at the Oasis.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, from Oasis where did you go to live?
Mr. SENATOR. Where I moved to?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. From the Oasis I think, I’m not sure now but I think from
the Oasis, I think I went on the road for 9 months and just lived all
over, if I recall right.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you working with Smoler’s then?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I’m not sure I went from the Oasis. I don’t remember
if I——
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if this will assist your memory. The social
security reports indicate that after the second quarter of 1958, which
would mean after July of 1958, you reported no income or no earnings
were reported, put it that way, for the last half of 1958, for all of
1959, for all of 1960, and for all of 1961. Now, can you tell us what
you were doing and where you were living for those 3½ years, starting
from July of 1958 until apparently——
Mr. SENATOR. July of 1958?
Mr. HUBERT. July of 1958 until apparently the beginning of 1962, when
you were employed by the Volume Sales Co. and Merchandise Mart, Dallas.
That is 3½ years there and I would like to know just what you were
doing and where you were living?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t know if I can put them all together right.
Mr. HUBERT. Do the best you can.
Mr. SENATOR. Now, when I was still living on Columbia Avenue, I don’t
remember if I was still with Smoler’s then.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case you moved to the Oasis?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I moved to the Oasis.
Mr. HUBERT. From the Oasis and after you left Smoler’s whenever it was,
you got on the road.
Mr. SENATOR. Wait; after I left Smoler’s, I had a couple of odd jobs
traveling which did not mean too much because they were not top lines
and moneywise there was no money to really be made. These were odds,
and then I finally got back with Rhea again.
Mr. HUBERT. R-h-e-a?
Mr. SENATOR. R-h-e-a. Rhea Manufacturing.
Mr. HUBERT. Milwaukee?
Mr. SENATOR. Milwaukee. I got back with Rhea again, I don’t remember
what year. But anyhow, in between that I would almost say there could
be a span with a rough guess approximately about a year and a half I
was unemployed.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you manage to sustain yourself by way of paying
normal expenses?
Mr. SENATOR. I was cooking for the boys and doing odd things for them.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you living in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.
Mr. HUBERT. All that period?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, during the period we are talking about, the
3½ years from July of 1958 until January of 1962, you never did change
your residence from Dallas, even though you might be traveling?
Mr. SENATOR. January of 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s get this part settled. From the time you left
Smoler’s, you were definitely living in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever actually establish a residence of a permanent
nature other than in Dallas any place else?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. So that even though you were traveling during those years,
doing odd jobs or for Rhea’s, you always lived in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; wait, there was one time, excuse me, I was staying
with a friend of mine in Houston. There was one time, I remember that.
Mr. HUBERT. How long ago?
Mr. SENATOR. But actually, that still wasn’t a permanent residence
because I was traveling with this guy because I was unemployed and I
used to help him.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?
Mr. SENATOR. His name is George Hamrah.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell it?
Mr. SENATOR. H-a-m-r-a-h.
Mr. HUBERT. He still lives in Houston?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he still lives in Houston.
Mr. HUBERT. So aside from that period that you are talking about, you
always lived in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you bring us forward then as to your residence from the
Oasis on?
Mr. SENATOR. From the Oasis I believe now, I believe from the Oasis I
went to Jack Ruby’s, if I am not mistaken. I think I moved in with Jack.
Wait, I’ll tell you when I moved in with Jack. It was in February or
March, I’m not sure now, of 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. And you think that you were in the Oasis in the interval.
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; wait, wait. Before I moved in, excuse me, yes,
I moved in with Jack from the Oasis. Now I lived in three different
places in the Oasis with different boys because I was unemployed.
Mr. HUBERT. We are not particularly interested in the apartment numbers
in the Oasis.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But we are in the names of the people that you lived with
at the Oasis.
Mr. SENATOR. I gave you the names——
Mr. HUBERT. Of two of them, as I recall.
Mr. SENATOR. Of one apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Right. Then another apartment I lived in, the fellow, his
name was Frank Irwin.
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.
Mr. SENATOR. The other one was James Young, and the other one was—this
is all in one apartment. I can’t think of the other one’s name.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen them in the last few years?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, the last time I saw any of them was around the latter
part of last year.
Mr. HUBERT. Even the man whose name you don’t know?
Mr. SENATOR. Even the man whose name I don’t know. I’m trying to think
of his name. I shouldn’t forget it. I think it is John.
Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps it will come to you in a minute. We will come back
to it.
Mr. SENATOR. I shouldn’t forget his name as long as I’ve known him. I
just can’t put my finger——
Mr. HUBERT. But you lived with those people at the Oasis?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. At various apartments?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Until January or February of 1962 when you moved in with
Jack Ruby; is that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was Ruby living then?
Mr. SENATOR. Ruby was living at the Marsalla—
Mr. HUBERT. Palace?
Mr. SENATOR. There is a bunch of apartments there.
Mr. HUBERT. Marsalla South?
Mr. SENATOR. It may have been Marsalla South.
Mr. HUBERT. There is actually a Marsalis Street; is there not?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but there is an apartment, a few begin with Marsalla,
Marsalla Apartments or Marsalla South. This one here was on Marsalla on
the street.
Mr. HUBERT. It was on Marsalis Street?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live with Jack then?
Mr. SENATOR. At that time I stayed, I lived with him approximately 5 to
6 months; something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Anybody else live there with you?
Mr. SENATOR. No; just Jack and myself.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the occasion for your leaving him?
Mr. SENATOR. I left him because I had a chance to go into the postcard
business.
Mr. HUBERT. How does that relate to leaving Jack? You still lived in
Dallas; did you not?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure. I never left Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live after you left Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. After I left who?
Mr. HUBERT. Ruby. Now, incidentally, I judge from the dates that that
would have been around in September.
Mr. SENATOR. August.
Mr. HUBERT. August of 1962?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; August.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go then?
Mr. SENATOR. I moved in with a fellow whose name was Stan Corbat.
Mr. HUBERT. And where was that apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. That was on Maple Avenue.
Mr. HUBERT. You say that the reason why you moved from Jack’s was
because you got a chance to be a salesman in the postcard business?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How does that relate, how does your getting this employment
relate to your moving from Jack’s apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack likes to live alone in the overall picture. First of
all, it is an interference of the time that I wake up and the time that
he goes to bed which don’t coincide. That is part. And then Jack don’t
live too clean. I mean he is a type—in other words, he comes home, he
is reading a newspaper, on the floor, if he is in the bathroom the
newspaper goes on the floor and things of that nature. Though he was
very clean about himself, he wasn’t clean around the apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. I judge from what you tell me then that your real reasons
for moving were those that you just mentioned rather than the fact that
you got employment selling postcards? Is that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. Why I moved?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Please run that back again.
Mr. HUBERT. I say I judge from what you have said that the real
reason for your moving from the apartment with Jack in 1962 was your
dissatisfaction with the living conditions rather than that you got a
job selling postcards?
Mr. SENATOR. No; not necessarily. I mean that is part of it. That is
not necessarily it; no.
Mr. HUBERT. How does the postcard job, selling postcards, contribute or
how did it contribute to the fact that you had to move from Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I didn’t have to. I didn’t have to; but this way here
I started to get self-sustaining a little bit.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see. So you had a steady job?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; see, the other way, when I was living with Jack, of
course, I was helping him at the club. I was helping him at the club,
and, of course, I abided by everything he said and did.
Mr. HUBERT. So the reasons for moving then, were a combination of
factors. One, that you were dissatisfied generally with the living
conditions as you have indicated?
Mr. SENATOR. That is only partially it. I had a chance to go out.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were financially better off and you had a chance to
go with Corbat, and you did?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long did you stay with Corbat?
Mr. SENATOR. When I went in with Corbat, of course, he only had a
one-bedroom apartment and I had to sleep on the couch again. I slept
on so many couches lately. So I told Stan, I told this friend of mine,
Corbat, when we were staying on Maple Avenue, that just as soon as I
get a little extra money I want to get a two-bedroom apartment and that
is where I moved into this last apartment, 225 South Ewing.
Mr. HUBERT. That was about when?
Mr. SENATOR. I moved in there, I believe it was the latter part of
November of 1962, we found a nice two-bedroom apartment that was very
reasonable. I told Jack about it and Jack moved next door.
Mr. HUBERT. But he moved later than you, didn’t he?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, see, I moved in first.
Mr. HUBERT. With Corbat?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Yes; first I went in alone, no furniture or nothing. I
moved in alone and I was there approximately about a week or something
like that, and Corbat stayed over at the other place because he wanted
to finish the balance of the month out. He wanted his last days in
there, you know, for we paid for the rent, and then he moved in right
after that.
Mr. HUBERT. He moved in with you?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was in November of 1962?
Mr. SENATOR. I believe it was the latter part of November of 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. When did Ruby move in?
Mr. SENATOR. He moved in around that same time.
Mr. HUBERT. But after you?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I would probably say within the week I would probably
say, something like that, within that week.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you stayed there until when?
Mr. SENATOR. The unfateful day.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t live with Corbat all that while?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I lived with Corbat from the time we moved in there
until August.
Mr. HUBERT. Of 1963?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now, the reason Corbat moved out——
Mr. HUBERT. Ruby had another apartment in the same building?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, yes; we lived, you know, one apartment next to the
other. Now, the reason Corbat moved was because he got married August
8, and there I was in the apartment alone and I couldn’t handle it
alone. But I did stay there 2 months with a struggle.
Mr. HUBERT. So then when did you move from that apartment to Ruby’s
apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. It was the first week in November of 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. By the way, would you state for the record what was the
number of the apartment you and Corbat had?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know the number. I said Maple Avenue. The
apartment was Granberry. You mean on Maple Avenue?
Mr. HUBERT. No.
Mr. SENATOR. Room number?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; on South Ewing.
Mr. SENATOR. 223 South Ewing.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the apartment number that you lived in with Corbat
which was next door, you say, to Jack’s and what was Ruby’s number. I
want to get that in the record.
Mr. SENATOR. I think Ruby’s was 206 and mine was 207, if I recall.
Mr. HUBERT. They were next to one another, or opposite?
Mr. SENATOR. No; in other words, you go along this corridor. There is
one apartment here. Right next door there is another apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. And they are numbered in sequence?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; 206, I believe his was 206 and mine was 207,
something like that. I think it was 206 and 207.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, for a moment, let’s go back to Frank Irwin, who was
one of your roommates. Have you seen him lately?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I have not seen Frank in, oh, I imagine it must be a
couple years.
Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing when you last saw him?
Mr. SENATOR. What does he do?
Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing then?
Mr. SENATOR. I believe he is a guard for the Bell Helicopter.
Mr. HUBERT. What about James Young?
Mr. SENATOR. James Young works for a finance—I think it is a finance
corporation called Warner.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you last see him?
Mr. SENATOR. I saw him, he was coming through, he was working out of El
Paso and he was being transferred, I think he said to Oklahoma City,
and I saw him that one day, rather, that one night in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. What time?
Mr. SENATOR. At night.
Mr. HUBERT. No; what day?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. What time of the year, what month?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I think it was in December.
Mr. HUBERT. Of 1963?
Mr. SENATOR. I think so, in December 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. When had you seen him prior to that time?
Mr. SENATOR. Prior to that time? I don’t remember. It could have been a
couple years, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned that there was another man, a third
man——
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Whose name you couldn’t remember at the time. Can you
remember his name now?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack Loftus.
Mr. HUBERT. L-o-f-t-u-s?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, that is correct, Jack Loftus, and he lives in
Hillsboro, if he is still there.
Mr. HUBERT. What is his occupation?
Mr. SENATOR. I think he works for a newspaper down there now in
Hillsboro.
Mr. HUBERT. Texas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, Hillsboro, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time you saw him?
Mr. SENATOR. I saw him the same night I saw Young. I may have seen
him after that. I know I have seen him a couple of times, but I don’t
remember if it was after that or before that. I don’t remember that,
but I do definitely remember seeing him the last time in December. This
part I do remember.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the same day you saw Young?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that just a coincidence or was it a plan?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; no coincidence. They were looking for me and I’ll
tell you where I saw him. I saw him up at Jack Ruby’s club.
Mr. HUBERT. That was after Oswald was shot?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. They were looking for you for what reason?
Mr. SENATOR. Sir?
Mr. HUBERT. For what reason were they looking? Why were they looking
for you?
Mr. SENATOR. Just friends, that is all, because I had lived with them,
you know, for a while. Nothing particular.
Mr. HUBERT. I suppose, too, they had known that you were in the
apartment with Ruby.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, it was national news.
Mr. SENATOR. They had read of the incident or heard of the incident
somehow.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that after Ruby killed Oswald that you saw
them?
Mr. SENATOR. These two boys?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I think it was in December now. I don’t remember if it was
a week, two or three. I’m not sure. I just don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you relate it to say Christmastime, Christmas day?
Mr. SENATOR. It could be. I just can’t think of when it was. Possibly.
Mr. HUBERT. How long prior to then had you seen Loftus?
Mr. SENATOR. Before?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, say before Oswald was shot. How long had it been since
you had seen Loftus?
Mr. SENATOR. Let me put it this way: I can’t quote it. I really can’t
quote it, but I would say that he lived in Hillsboro and he used to
come up on weekends and I believe he stayed with his friend in Irving,
Frank Irwin.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the friend’s name?
Mr. SENATOR. Frank Irwin.
Mr. HUBERT. I-r-w-i-n?
Mr. SENATOR. I-r-w-i-n, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that person lived in Irving, Tex.?
Mr. SENATOR. Irving, yes; he lived in Irving. Now I used to run across
him once in a while. He used to come up you know for the weekend.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he know Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he knew him casually.
Mr. HUBERT. What about these others, Frank Irwin and James Young?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if they knew Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Stanley Corbat know him?
Mr. SENATOR. Casually, because Stanley and I lived next door to him.
But, of course, Stan never went to his club unless I took him there.
Mr. HUBERT. Stan got married, of course, and that is why he moved out
of the apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is he living now, in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know the number, but I think he is living on
Munger Street.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen him since Oswald was shot?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you come in contact with him, socially?
Mr. SENATOR. I just happened to run across him one day. I ran across
him once in a delicatessen.
Mr. HUBERT. Just once?
Mr. SENATOR. In the delicatessen. I ran across him once in a
delicatessen. Then I ran across him another time. As a matter of fact,
I ran across him I think it was twice since the happenings.
Mr. HUBERT. What does he do?
Mr. SENATOR. He is a buyer for a department store. He buys women’s
budget dresses.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which department store?
Mr. SENATOR. Titche.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located?
Mr. SENATOR. That is I think on Main Street. I think it is on Main
Street.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you a few other questions about yourself.
Have you ever been in any difficulties with the law, that is to say, by
way of charges?
Mr. SENATOR. No; the only incident I ever had with the law, and I have
been asked many times before on this already, that one night—this goes
back maybe 3 or 4 years ago—there was another chap and I, we went to a
cocktail lounge and we both had two scotches and water. We crossed the
street and I think we crossed the street against the light because in
Dallas they are very meticulous of crossing against the lights, and we
went into the coffee shop to get something to eat. We no sooner got in
the coffee shop than two cops nabbed me, us rather. They said we were
drunk. Now I wasn’t any more drunk than he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they charge you?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they took us down to jail, 4 hours to sober up, but I
had nothing to sober up with.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they follow up with any charges?
Mr. SENATOR. No; we were fined $15.
Mr. HUBERT. You were fined?
Mr. SENATOR. I believe it was $15.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the only time?
Mr. SENATOR. The only time in my life.
Mr. HUBERT. The only time you have ever been arrested?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. There have been no other charges?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Also I gather from the fact that you got an honorable
discharge, that you had no difficulties with military justice?
Mr. SENATOR. Never.
Mr. HUBERT. During the war?
Mr. SENATOR. Never, none whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, while you were living in Miami, did you have occasion
to get to know or meet or make friends with, either one, any person who
would be classified as gamblers, professional gamblers?
Mr. SENATOR. Professional?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to any gambling houses?
Mr. SENATOR. Me? No; of course I’m certain there must be sneak gambling
you know, like anyone else. They call it sneak gambling, you know, you
do it under cover. But at that time when I got down there, I think it
was either shut down or close to being shut down. I don’t remember just
what year it was. They just clamped down, you know.
Of course, I remember when I first went there as a kid, everything was
open. Slot machines used to be on the streets and all that.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you yourself ever done any gambling?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I’m no gambler. When you put it this way, I will
put it this way: You mean have I played poker at home, 5 and 10 or
something like that?
Mr. HUBERT. No.
Mr. SENATOR. No; the only time that I ever did any gambling was when
I was overseas. I was in the jungles for approximately 3 years. What
other recreation did we have? So we gambled.
Mr. HUBERT. I want to explore a bit more the means by which you
obtained money to live during the 2½ years that you were apparently
unemployed, at least no earnings were reported, that is to say, from
July of 1958 until the first of 1962.
Mr. SENATOR. What years?
Mr. HUBERT. According to the records, there were no earnings reported
for you by anybody nor did you apparently report any yourself from July
roughly of 1958 until January 1 of 1962, or the first part of 1962.
Mr. SENATOR. Approximately about 4 weeks ago the Internal Revenue had
me and they called me right after I got off the witness stand at the
Jack Ruby trial that they wanted to see me.
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.
Mr. SENATOR. They gave me a notice to come up and see them. They
allowed me 10 days to come up and see them, which I did.
When I was unemployed, when I lost my job I think it was in 1958, when
I was with Rhea, which is a very depressing feeling, I don’t know how
to explain this, I really don’t know how to explain it to you, I didn’t
file. Why I didn’t file I can’t even answer, I don’t know why I didn’t
file.
Mr. HUBERT. Before you get to that, maybe we ought to get to this part.
You say you lost your job. You are talking about being with Smoler’s?
Mr. SENATOR. No; that was with Rhea.
Mr. HUBERT. You were with Smoler’s a long time. What caused you to lose
your job there?
Mr. SENATOR. With Smoler Brothers?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. As I say, they weren’t happy with me and I wasn’t happy
with them.
First of all, I’ll tell you they had cut down the territory and they
were unhappy with the type business I was doing. So, this was a volume
house, and the type operation was, I don’t know if I classify, if I
tell you $3.75 a dress, I don’t know if it means anything to you or
not, but at this price range, at the wholesale price range, you have
got to do a volume business to make any money. And through this they
weren’t happy. And I wasn’t happy because they had cut my territory
down so, so we parted good friends. I wasn’t making any money anyhow
over that.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you had times with Smoler’s when you had done
considerably better?
Mr. SENATOR. There were times that I did better. I don’t say that I did
a fantastic job with them, but I have done a little better than that.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been able to make any savings to carry you forward?
You see, that is what I want to get at. We find when you left Smoler’s,
you go to Rhea’s——
Mr. SENATOR. Excuse me, before I went to Rhea I had other odd jobs you
know that were nothing to speak of.
Mr. HUBERT. Here is what I want to get at.
Here is a period of 2½ years, you had to have some money to live on
or people gave you money or something of that sort. Now tell us about
that.
Mr. SENATOR. I lived on handouts.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about it.
Mr. SENATOR. I lived on handouts. When I mentioned these boys here and
I was living on handouts with them. In other words, I used to cook for
them and wash dishes and things of that nature. I was really depressed,
extremely depressed and down and out, and they slipped me five, three,
two, whatever it was, and I helped them along in the house there and
they kept me for a while.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not pay any part of the rent?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is true for that whole 2½-year period?
Mr. SENATOR. It wasn’t two and a half. I would say it was approximately
a year and a half, to my knowledge. I don’t think it was 2½ years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You went from Smoler Brothers to Rhea directly?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; I say I had the odd jobs directly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how much time was there between Smoler Brothers and
Rhea?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think there was much time between them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you say, 3 months?
Mr. SENATOR. It’s hard for me to really guess. I’d have to make such a
fantastic guess I wouldn’t know if I was right or wrong.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was not too long ago. This was back in 1957.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, if I told you 3 months I don’t know how close I’d be
and if I told you 6 months I don’t know how far I’d be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you had odd jobs. Can you be more specific?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, I was with another dress house for a short while,
which didn’t last too long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Doing the same kind of work?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, doing the same kind of work.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Covering territory?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, they were with a top house. I didn’t stay with them
long and I wasn’t making any money with them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What company was that?
Mr. SENATOR. Junior Age. I don’t believe they are in business any more.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say you were with them?
Mr. SENATOR. It may have been 3 months. I don’t know, 2 months, 4
months. I’m not sure. It wasn’t too long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on a straight commission with them?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. No, a draw against commission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A draw against commission?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But if you didn’t make your draw, you were in the hole
with them and had to pay it back supposedly, somehow?
Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t pay it back, but I was in the hole, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But after you left this dress house, who did you work for
next?
Mr. SENATOR. I’m trying to think from the time there until Rhea. I know
I did some odd things. I was with Rhea——
Mr. HUBERT. Were these odd things always in the same line, or did you
get into other lines?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I worked in a little bare place, I think I lasted, I
worked there for about 6 weeks once at hardly nothing, just to keep me
going.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that was before you worked for Rhea, or was it?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I think that was after. I think that was after I
worked for Rhea.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did the Rhea employment last?
Mr. SENATOR. I may have been with them maybe a year, year and a half,
I’m not sure now.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any money off of that?
Mr. SENATOR. Just a draw part.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you on the handout basis when you were working for
Rhea, that is to say, handout with your roommates, or did you have
enough money then to pay your fair share?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; I paid my fair share as long as I was——
Mr. HUBERT. So when you are talking about the handouts——
Mr. SENATOR. The handouts is when I was completely out.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have any employment at all?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I was completely out.
Mr. HUBERT. That was for about a year, year and a half?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say about a year and a half at a rough guess.
Mr. HUBERT. When did that begin and when did that end, that year and a
half? Let’s look at it this way: You were not working at the time you
were living with Ruby, were you, that is to say you were not making any
money?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You were not contributing?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Ruby gave me handouts.
Mr. HUBERT. That is right?
Mr. SENATOR. Certainly.
Mr. HUBERT. So that is a year and a half back from November of 1963, is
it not, roughly?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I was with this Volume Sales like you mentioned before.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I was with them. Now, I was with Volume for maybe about 9
months, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s take the time that you were with Corbat. Was that on
a handout basis too, or did you pay your fair share then?
Mr. SENATOR. No; with Corbat I paid him very little. I’ll tell you when
I paid him very little, though. I paid him very little when I first
moved in with him, because I had no money.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you got——
Mr. SENATOR. Then when I moved, when I was able to a little, we went on
a 50-50 basis.
Mr. HUBERT. That is when you moved to South Ewing?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Which was in August of 1962?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you making money at that time?
Mr. SENATOR. The cards. My half of the rent was $62.50 a month and his
half. In other words, it ran about $15 a week, approximately.
Mr. HUBERT. And you earned enough to pay your half by selling postcards?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I was in the postcards.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what business? What company is that?
Mr. SENATOR. Texas Postcard & Novelty Co.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with them?
Mr. SENATOR. I was sales manager, whatever that means.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with them?
Mr. SENATOR. August of 1962 until November of 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. What part of November?
Mr. SENATOR. The latter part of November.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you ceased your employment with them after Oswald
was shot?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is when I fell apart with the incident.
Mr. HUBERT. What were you making then?
Mr. SENATOR. $75 a week, but $61.45, that is my actual draw.
Mr. HUBERT. That was your actual draw?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In cash?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Roughly $250 a month?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you paid your half of the rent with Corbat?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; $15 a week, $16 a week, or whatever it was.
Mr. HUBERT. And then when you lost that employment—just a minute;
you had not lost that employment at the time you moved in with Ruby,
because you say that that employment——
Mr. SENATOR. No, no, no; you mean prior to——
Mr. HUBERT. To the shooting.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You were still working with them?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were still drawing that pay?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you mean when you said a little while ago that you
were on a handout basis with Ruby since you were making $250?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I am referring to the first time.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, I see.
Mr. SENATOR. That was in 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. You were living in another place?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; in 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. But with reference to the last time you lived with Ruby;
that is to say, commencing the beginning of November of 1963?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You were——
Mr. SENATOR. I was under pressure those 2 months because the rent—you
know, when you switch from $62.50 to $125 you are going broke.
Mr. HUBERT. From the time you left Corbat until you moved with Ruby——
Mr. SENATOR. I struggled for the 2 months, and Jack Ruby said to move
in, so I moved in.
Mr. HUBERT. And were you supposed to pay any part?
Mr. SENATOR. With Jack, no.
Mr. HUBERT. The arrangement was that you were not to pay anything?
Mr. SENATOR. I wasn’t to pay, but you know I would help him. I would
help him Fridays and Saturdays, or once in a while I would pop up
during a week night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you something to get it straight about this
Rhea Manufacturing Co.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did they do? What did they make?
Mr. SENATOR. They manufacture dresses and sportswear.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I notice your social security earnings record with Smoler
Bros., that there seemed to be times regularly where you did not report
any earnings from them, or they did not report any payments to you I
should say, to be more accurate. Was there something seasonal about
that business with Smoler Bros.?
Mr. SENATOR. The type business?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; every season wasn’t good. In other words, let me
put it this way: When you get down to the latter part of the year,
you know, see, we are more so of a cotton housecoat, not a housecoat
but a cotton dress. You have seen these women wear these inexpensive
cotton dresses. They look like plaid variations. Well, this wasn’t a
big factor at that time of the year. In other words, our spring and our
summer was the best for us as far as selling goes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the spring and the summer were you selling for the
spring and summer seasons, or were you selling in the spring and summer
for the following season?
Mr. SENATOR. Let me explain it this way: I’m certain we are both on the
right track, but let me explain it this way. In other words, we will
start in May. In May your fall lines come out, see, come out, and you
start selling them in May. Some of them sell them in April, even. It
all depends who the manufacturer is and how fast they put them out.
Then your spring line—let’s see, from the fall line your spring line
will come out in, I think it’s August, August of the year.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if we cannot get it this way. You never actually
ceased your employment with Smoler’s at any time until the final time?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, there are periods from these reports that we have in
which Smoler’s apparently did not report any earnings for you. What we
want to know, is: Is it a fact that you did not earn anything during
that period or did not even draw during that period, or have you any
explanation for the reason that Smoler’s apparently did not report any
earnings for you during several years in a row for certain quarters,
seemingly for the third and fourth quarter of each year, and why would
that be?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you always on a draw right along?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there some periods during each year when you did not
earn your draw?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes: there were many times I didn’t earn my draw.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything seasonal about that? Were there certain
times of the year when you were working when it regularly happened that
you did not earn your draw?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What times of the year did that tend to be when you did
not earn your draw?
Mr. SENATOR. I cannot base it on any particular time or periods, but
there were many times, especially when you get chopped down a bit on
your loans. I have never made what you call any big money with them. I
was always, I would imagine, hitting probably around my draw part, or
there may have been times when I fell even behind.
Mr. HUBERT. I want to get to the time when you first met Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, I have a couple of questions. I would like to
clear up on some much earlier stuff before you get to that.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. First of all, where is Gloversville, N.Y.? What part of
New York State is that?
Mr. SENATOR. Are you familiar with Albany?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. You are familiar with Schenectady?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. How about Amsterdam?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if I am not, if you tell us where it is.
Mr. SENATOR. I haven’t been there in so many years I may not have the
right direction now. All I know is I am trying to figure what the
locality is. It is 30 miles from Schenectady. In other words, it is off
the beaten path a bit from your main lines.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is upstate New York?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I would probably say in the locale of the foothills
of the Adirondacks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I perhaps did not catch this, but there was a period
in 1947 when you went to work in New Hampshire?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you go to New Hampshire?
Mr. SENATOR. I needed a job.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go there?
Mr. SENATOR. The man who was running the Red Rooster—what was the name
of it again?
Mr. HUBERT. The Hensroost.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the Hensroost; he was up there for the summer. So he
got me a job up there for the summer. That was another time when I was
very much in need of a job. The type of work that I did up there, they
had a little place where the help used to come in, you know, to eat or
drink or buy cigars, separation from the guest part. This is the part I
worked, made them hamburgers or whatever it may be of that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I do not have anything else, Mr. Hubert, if you want to go
on.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, as I understand it, it was in May of 1954, almost 10
years ago, that you moved to Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How soon after moving to Dallas did you meet Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say it may have been—I would say approximately
about within a year or approximately about a year; I’m not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not know him prior to moving to Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; I had never heard of Jack Ruby before in my life.
Mr. HUBERT. You think it would be somewhere in 1955 that you first met
him?
Mr. SENATOR. I would even say in 1955 or early 1956. I mean give or
take a few.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us the circumstances under which you met him.
Mr. SENATOR. How I met him?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I was with a friend of mine one day. We went over to—I am
certain you heard of the Vegas Club in Dallas?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. That is where, you know—at that time this is all Jack Ruby
had was the Vegas Club and this is where I met him casually. Never seen
him before, and I was introduced to Jack Ruby like I guess anybody else
walked in, Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; now, starting from then, would you tell us how
your friendship or acquaintance developed?
Mr. SENATOR. I have seen Jack; I have met Jack here or there, you know;
it can be in a restaurant or whatever it might be or a luncheonette or
something like that. I have met him many times. I have seen him, “Hi,
George”; “Hi, Jack, how are you?”
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the Vegas Club frequently after that first
meeting?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; very, very seldom, very seldom, and the only time
that I really got close to Jack was about 2 years ago. Always previous
to that it has always been, “Jack, how are you?” wherever I met him;
having coffee, he always offered to buy me something to eat.
Mr. HUBERT. You describe your relationship with Jack up to 2 years ago
as casual?
Mr. SENATOR. Strictly casual, like I’d meet any other friend anywhere
else.
Mr. HUBERT. It could hardly be called friendship as it ultimately
developed, in any case.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I respected him; he respected me. We talked nice.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not go to the Vegas very much?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t go to the Vegas very much.
Mr. HUBERT. At the time you indicated that there was a change in that
casual relationship to something else 2 years ago.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what brought that about?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. (Brief recess.)
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Senator, we have had about a 10-minute recess. You
understand, of course, that we are continuing this deposition by the
same authority and under the same conditions which I stated to you at
the very beginning of it, and further that you are under the same oath
that you were prior to the recess. Is that agreeable with you? You
understand that?
Mr. SENATOR. I can’t lie because I didn’t bring a lawyer with me.
Mr. HUBERT. What?
Mr. SENATOR. I said I am not lying because I didn’t bring a lawyer with
me.
Mr. HUBERT. So that the record may be clear on the point, I want to see
if I understand your last remark. Does it indicate that you wish to
have a lawyer?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I just wanted to get it straight.
Mr. SENATOR. I say that I didn’t come here to lie; so I don’t need a
lawyer.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, now we are at the point about 2 years ago when
a casual relationship which you have described with Ruby changed into
something else. Why don’t you just tell us about that in your own words?
Mr. SENATOR. All right. I mentioned before Volume Sales. When I got
through with Volume Sales I was unemployed again, and I used to jump up
to Jack’s place, his other place, which is the Carousel. Previous to
that there was the Sovereign Club, a private club. On rare occasions I
used to go up there and we started getting a little more friendly.
Mr. HUBERT. That was about 2 years ago or prior to that?
Mr. SENATOR. No; that was while I was still with Volume Sales. In other
words, that was, I would say, approximately about 2½ years ago. I used
to go up to the Sovereign Club; you know it is a private club; they
don’t let you in normally, but he used to let me in to watch the show.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember actually when that opened?
Mr. SENATOR. Which?
Mr. HUBERT. The Sovereign.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when it changed from the Sovereign to the
Carousel?
Mr. SENATOR. I wasn’t around for the change, but I would say that it
was over 2 years ago. Now just how much over, I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you concur in the suggestion that it would be
approximately Christmas of 1961, which would be about 2 years and 5 or
6 months?
Mr. SENATOR. That it changed to the Carousel?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t quote that. I couldn’t even quote it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can I interrupt you here Mr. Hubert? How did you happen to
come to terminate your employment with Volume Sales?
Mr. SENATOR. You have got to know the man. He is a hard guy to work
for. He was really a tough guy to work for. You see, No. 1, he is a
salesman himself, and he is a pretty shrewd salesman, and he had Volume
Sales, which were novelty, sort of novelty and gift item type things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of things?
Mr. SENATOR. Novelties? Well that would be variations. In other words,
you probably have seen these little things with different sayings on
them. Remember the little miniature loving cups with the different
sayings on them? Things of this nature, and other gag items and key
chains and little bar sets and little weather sets and things of that
nature, and funny matches. Just a variation of those things of that
nature. And when I traveled for him and I’d get back to town, he would
knock me off $50. In others words, my draw wasn’t stable with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first started to visit the Sovereign Club, as you
say Jack would let you in, I take it you didn’t have membership in the
Sovereign Club?
Mr. SENATOR. No; because I think at the Sovereign Club I probably
attended that place maybe three or four times or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Mr. Ruby running the same kind of shows at the
Sovereign Club that he later had at the Carousel?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; he was running acts, you know, he had acts,
singers or dancers or comedians, something of that nature you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have striptease performance?
Mr. SENATOR. No; the Sovereign; no; there were no strippers when he had
the Sovereign Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you familiar with the other nightclubs in town when
Mr. Ruby had the Sovereign Club?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I knew some of them; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you visit any of those?
Mr. SENATOR. On rare occasions; yes. I couldn’t afford them, number
one. I was never a member because I couldn’t afford membership. I
wasn’t making that kind of money. But I’d either go up with a friend
who was a member or something of that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there something about the Sovereign Club that was more
attractive to you than some of the other clubs?
Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly; no. It is just that I knew Jack and
Jack said like he said a thousand times to many people. First of all
the Carousel of course is a $2 admission. But many people would say
“Come on up, be my guest,” free admission.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any other nightclub operators in town at the
time Jack was running the Sovereign Club and letting you in?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, normally on getting into clubs I would probably go
in with a friend who was a member. You probably know the Kings Club and
the Adolphus don’t you or you heard of it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; for example did you know the manager of the Theatre
Lounge?
Mr. SENATOR. As of recent?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Back there when you were going to the Sovereign Club and
Jack would let you in.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I knew who the owner was but I didn’t know the
manager, who the manager was at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You know Abe Weinstein?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; I don’t know him that well. I know who he is, I
know him casually.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you visited his clubs?
Mr. SENATOR. On very rare occasions. Abe’s place I have probably been
up maybe as long as I have been in Dallas, if I have been up there four
times I have been up there a lot, if I have been up there that many
times.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; now we had progressed to the point where your
casual relationship with Jack Ruby had developed into a little more
than that commencing roughly about 2½ years ago when you began to go
to the Sovereign Club. I think you went there about four or five times
before it changed to the Carousel. But you have previously mentioned
that about 2 years ago something happened that changed this improving
relationship let’s say in the sense that you got to know each other
better, so that you could be called friends then. Something happened
you said about 2 years ago, and that is what I want you to take it from
there.
Mr. SENATOR. When I got through with Volume Sales I was unemployed
again. In other words, I was down again. So Jack Ruby is of a nature,
he will help somebody. Rather he has to feed them or give them a place
to sleep or something of this nature, this is when he took me in when
he knew I was broke. He said “George you can stay with me.”
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him you were broke or did he find out from
another source?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I told him I was down.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask to go in with him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I’ll tell you why. I don’t think I did. At that time
Jack was changing over and he had some pretty rough times. He had
changed over from this Sovereign Club. Now how rough he had it there
I don’t know because I wasn’t intimate with him at that time, that
intimate. And he went into this burlesque business.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the Carousel you mean?
Mr. SENATOR. The Carousel and he was bucking somebody who had never
been bucked before. That is the Weinstein brothers who owned the
Theatre Lounge and the Colony Club and who have had the monopoly of
that type nature of business for many, many years. Now, for him to buck
them he has really got something to buck.
Mr. HUBERT. So he was having difficulties and you were too?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; originally I was sleeping at the club and so was he.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he didn’t have an apartment at all?
Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t have an apartment at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that situation go on?
Mr. SENATOR. It didn’t last too long, because as business started to
pick up some he was sleeping, he had his own room in the club and he
had a fold-out bed that I could sleep on and I slept there for awhile.
Mr. HUBERT. So that originally when Jack took you in, as it were, to
assist you, he took you in at the club, and not into any apartment
which he then had?
Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t have an apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what I say.
Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t have an apartment at that time. But he was
always good in feeding somebody if they were down and out.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he gave you cash?
Mr. SENATOR. Either that or he gave me a little cash for spending money
or he would just take me.
Mr. HUBERT. Just do what?
Mr. SENATOR. Take me to eat, you know, when he went to eat. He’d pay
for my laundry or have my suit pressed, things of that nature.
Mr. HUBERT. But then he did get an apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. He got an apartment but I don’t remember just how long
after that.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case when he got an apartment you moved into that
apartment with him?
Mr. SENATOR. See I am a little blank on one point there. I just don’t
remember how the outcome was when he moved out of there into the
apartment. I can’t remember just how long I stayed up at the club with
him. It wasn’t too long, though. I don’t remember how long. But anyhow
he got this apartment on South Ewing.
Mr. HUBERT. On South Ewing?
Mr. SENATOR. No; Marsalis.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you moved in with him right away?
Mr. SENATOR. Then I went in with him. Now I don’t remember if I went
in with him—I don’t remember how I went in with him. I can’t place it
together but I know I was there.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t have to pay any rent?
Mr. SENATOR. No; but I helped him in the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Now when you helped him in the club, what did you do? What
kind of work did you do at the club?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I sort of ran the lights for him for awhile and I’d
take cash for him.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean that is on the front door?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; on the front door.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the $2 admission charge?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is right.
Mr. HUBERT. And what other jobs did you do?
Mr. SENATOR. Whatever errands he wanted me to do during the course
of the daytime, if he wanted me to pick up something here or pick
up something there or buy something that he needed for the club, go
shopping and things of that nature, whatever it might be.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t do the clean-up jobs?
Mr. SENATOR. No. He had a clean-up boy.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was he?
Mr. SENATOR. His name was Andrew Armstrong I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he there when you first went there?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He was with Jack quite awhile. He was with Jack, I
think he was with Jack before I was there, yes, and he was there until
the time the club closed down.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you travel around with Jack during this period when you
were unemployed and he was helping you out and you were helping him out
by doing errands and so forth? I mean when you got up in the morning
did you both go together? Did you move together or how was it?
Mr. SENATOR. It all depends. First of all he slept pretty good. He
slept pretty late. He liked to sleep. And he used to get up in the
afternoon and mess around, sit around the apartment. If the weather
was right, I mean if it happened to be summertime, he is a great fan
for swimming. Or he’d just mope around the place or hang around the
apartment house.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is whether your helping him out
at the club was a regular thing or just done once in a while.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I was doing it regularly. As long as he was keeping me
up, I had to do something, see.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what I had in mind.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the club at the same time that he did?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave at the same time that he did?
Mr. SENATOR. I would leave when he left.
Mr. HUBERT. Because you were both going back to the same house?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What about going there? You went earlier?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; I left earlier. In other words he could sit in
the apartment longer than I could.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you normally go to work then?
Mr. SENATOR. He would always make me go in in early, somewheres around
between 7 and 8. He wanted me to see that things were set up.
Mr. HUBERT. You never had to go in midafternoon though?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; unless if we did go in midafternoon, which was
rare, probably maybe to feed the dogs or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Who took care of the reservations and all other matters of
that sort?
Mr. SENATOR. Andrew.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did Andrew get there?
Mr. SENATOR. Andrew was there; Andrew would come there somewhere around
1 o’clock in the afternoon. See Andrew lived there for a short while
too after we had left. He was staying there. And then I think he got
married or something like that. But Andrew was with him about 2 years I
guess, maybe a little longer.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already covered the next stage, and that
was when you got a job and also you were disgusted with the conditions
and so you moved in with Corbat?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now during the period that you lived with Corbat, which
would have been, as I remember it, from August of 1962 until August of
1963—is that right?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your relationship with Jack then?
Mr. SENATOR. August of 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. That is when you moved out of Jack’s apartment and took up
with Corbat.
Mr. SENATOR. I always went to see him. I always used to come up there.
At rare times I would help him at the door.
Mr. HUBERT. But you had a job then?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. But I would go up there and I would help him at the
door, things of that kind.
Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, he for a good part of that period
he actually lived in the South Ewing Apartments where you lived with
Corbat, is that right?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. We moved there practically the same time; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So that in spite of the fact that you broke up the domestic
establishment that you had, there was no ill feeling between you.
Mr. SENATOR. Never, no, no. We have never had any ill feeling. We got
along excepting when he hollered at me.
Mr. HUBERT. Well we will get to that. In this new job which you had
when you were living with Corbat did you have to use an automobile?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; a wagon.
Mr. HUBERT. A station wagon?
Mr. SENATOR. Volkswagen, one of those box things, what do you call them?
Mr. GRIFFIN. One of those Volkswagen microbuses?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it a passenger car?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it is one of these solid enclosures. It looks like a
box, you know. I don’t know what you call them.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it to hold goods you were displaying?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right; but there was no windows to it except in
the back, the back part.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it your car or did it belong to the company?
Mr. SENATOR. It was the company.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say you continued to go to the Carousel from time
to time. How often about, just roughly?
Mr. SENATOR. Two or three times a week. It all depends.
Mr. HUBERT. And you would help there?
Mr. SENATOR. Not always. Sometimes I would, sometimes I wouldn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. If you helped did he pay you?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I did it because I still remember what he has done for
me when I was down and out, and it wasn’t that many hours or it wasn’t
difficult labor or anything of that nature. But I still remembered the
things he did for me, when I was down and out.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, then I think we have covered the time when
Corbat left and you lost your job and found that you were down and out
and again you moved into his apartment then, giving up the apartment
next door.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he invite you in then or did you ask him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he invited me. He knew I was pressed.
Mr. HUBERT. And you had to give up the automobile at that time?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I had the automobile until January.
Mr. HUBERT. The fact is I think you told us that you were working with
these people until after Oswald was shot?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But at the stress of the——
Mr. SENATOR. But the stresses.
Mr. HUBERT. The stress of having to carry the whole apartment when
Corbat left was one of the factors that put pressure upon you, is that
right?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it is the pressure of the extra amount of money.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not own an automobile of your own I take it?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, when I was traveling the road; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time you owned an automobile?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know, it must have been about 4 or 5 years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind was it?
Mr. SENATOR. I think the last one I had was, I think it was a Buick.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you sell it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t remember if I sold it or traded it in.
Mr. HUBERT. You traded it in for what?
Mr. SENATOR. I had a Buick once. I mean I had a few Buicks. When I say
a few I mean there might have been about 3, and I had a Ford once I
believe.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case you haven’t owned a car of your own for about 4
or 5 years?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And the last car you owned you must have sold it I suppose.
You couldn’t have traded it in because then you would have gotten a new
car.
Mr. SENATOR. I am trying to think what was I doing with the last car. I
think the last car, I think I lost it on payments. I couldn’t keep up
the payments if I am not mistaken, if that is the one. I think that is
it. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt a second to clarify one thing in my mind.
You mentioned this Volkswagen. The last time you had it was in January?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what year?
Mr. SENATOR. 1964.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Just a couple of months ago?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Coming to the first part of November 1963, was that when
you moved in with Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I believe it was somewhere around the 1st or 2d of
November, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Then I suppose you went back to the routine of the general
mode of living and working with him that had existed before?
Mr. SENATOR. No; then I was helping him, I mean I was staying with
him, so I was helping him on weekends. Once in a while I would pop in
maybe on a weekday.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your operation——
Mr. SENATOR. Just at the door.
Mr. HUBERT. Your operation insofar as the Carousel is concerned was not
like it was before?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Not on a daily basis?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Just at night, not every night?
Mr. SENATOR. Normally I would come in on Friday and Saturday.
Mr. HUBERT. But you were still at your job?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; after all I was staying there and felt he was
entitled to something, you know, so I’d come in there and help him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you assist in the cooking or anything of that sort?
Mr. SENATOR. There was no food. The only food there was, they make
pizzas once in a while.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t mean at the Carousel, I mean at the house, the
apartment.
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; but I couldn’t cook right for him. He is a funny
guy in cooking.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you do any cooking there at all?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. If I don’t broil right for him, if I make him eggs,
it has got to be so much of this in the butter because he was watching
his diet, and I got so tired of it I says, “Make your own eggs.” You
just couldn’t make anything right for him. And all meats had to be
broiled. He don’t believe in fried stuff. And he was just hard to cook
for.
Mr. HUBERT. The routine then I suppose is that you were working and
you would come back to the apartment after normal working hours, which
would be around when, 5 or 6 in the evening?
Mr. SENATOR. To cook for him? That would be rare. I got away from that.
Mr. HUBERT. I am getting to the normal routine as to your relationship.
You had a regular working day I take it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Which started off at 8 or so in the morning?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And ended up at 5 or 6 in the evening? He, on the other
hand, would be sleeping in the morning?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And I understand would leave the apartment after you got
back at night or before, as a normal thing?
Mr. SENATOR. It wasn’t always necessarily that I came home between 5
and 6 because many times I stayed out.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any kind of a pattern at all to your living in
point of time?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; there is no particular pattern.
Mr. HUBERT. What about weekends? Was that different?
Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly. First of all I always get up before
he does, whether I am working or otherwise.
Mr. HUBERT. You would help him at the club?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. On weekends and if you did I suppose you came back about
the same time he did?
Mr. SENATOR. At night? Yes. But as far as I getting up in the morning,
I always got up much earlier than he did. It was just natural. It was
natural for me to get up, and it doesn’t make any difference what
particular time I went to bed at 2, 3, 4 or 5, I am of that nature that
I get up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your regular rising time?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say 7, 7:30, sometimes 6 in the morning. A lot of
times it would probably depend what time I go to bed. If I go to bed at
10 o’clock at night I probably wake up at 5 or 5:30 in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. What about on weekends?
Mr. SENATOR. On weekends? Say like a Sunday. I would probably wake up
at 7:30 or 8 o’clock in the morning on Sunday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Has it been your habit when you get up in the morning you
make yourself a breakfast or what do you do?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I will tell you, when I wake up in the morning I want
coffee, but I don’t have that appetite in the morning when I get up. It
is very rare that I will eat the moment I wake up in the morning. But I
get hungry maybe an hour or two later or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So on a working day would you go to work, grab a cup of
coffee and go to work?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; on working days I go downtown and have my coffee.
I don’t even make it there. Never. I don’t sit there and make coffee in
the morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular place that you eat at regularly?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where?
Mr. SENATOR. I had a hangout. The Eat Well. There is three places that
I normally went to. Eat Well, I always went there every morning, even
on Sunday, and then the Chefette. Down where the Chefette is in the
Hotel Adolphus and then the Walgren also in the Hotel Adolphus. Those
are the three places I normally was always in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any regular place where you ate lunch?
Mr. SENATOR. No; there is no particular—I mean I don’t pick my spot
where I eat lunch.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you do about dinners?
Mr. SENATOR. Dinners I normally would like to go home, for meal, but I
ate more when I was living with Stan or by myself than I did with Jack,
because I just can’t cook of his nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack in the habit of coming home for dinner?
Mr. SENATOR. A lot of times, yes; and then I would probably say maybe;
on rare occasions, no. It wasn’t necessarily that he had to be home for
dinner because there were many times he also ate out. But he was hard
on food, even at a restaurant he was not easy. It had to be so-so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did the shopping?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack did the shopping. I couldn’t do no shopping. I can’t
shop for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So Jack in effect would buy the meat for the meals and he
would plan the meals? Is that the idea? Then you would cook them?
Mr. SENATOR. He would buy what would suit himself, and if I didn’t like
it that is too bad.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a regular routine of going to a grocery store
once a week and going shopping for a week or how did it work?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say something like that. Of course, it
all depends, you know, how much he is buying, how much he is going to
buy. But he always had a lot of meat. He always kept his refrigerator
pretty well filled. He’d buy grapefruits, half a grapefruit and
grapefruit juice like crazy. Holy God, you know he’d wake up in the
morning, the number one thing was that grapefruit. If he bought
grapefruit which he’d normally buy 6, 8, 10 of them at a clip, he would
cut up about 2 of them, 2 at once mind you, and put them through the
wringer and wring them down, you know, the machine he had home and
drink solid grapefruit juice, but from 2 of them, 2 whole grapefruits,
unless he had the frozen grapefruits which he diluted with water. This
is number one before he did anything, the grapefruit bit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this pattern prevail both when you were living with
him the first time and when you were living with him the second time?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or was there some difference in your relationship?
Mr. SENATOR. No; there was no difference. His way of living was set
before I ever heard of Jack Ruby, his way of eating.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He would do all the shopping? Who would decide on any
particular evening what the meal was going to be?
Mr. SENATOR. I had no say. I had no say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he call you in advance to let you know when he was
coming back for dinner?
Mr. SENATOR. No; no call; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would you do? Did you have a time when you liked to
eat, if Jack wasn’t there that you would?
Mr. SENATOR. If he wasn’t there then I’d help myself or even if I made
a couple of eggs or whatever it might be. Sure, I mean there was no
particular time that I had to sit down and eat with him, because if I
wasn’t there he ain’t waiting for me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you felt like eating dinner, would you go into the
icebox and pull out a steak and make some potatoes and do what you
wanted to do?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; sure, sure. If he wasn’t there, look, I am not going
to sit there and wait for him, you know. And he certainly isn’t sitting
there waiting for me, because I probably don’t know what time he is
going to be home and he probably doesn’t know what time I am going to
be home or sometimes we may be there together. But there was no set
pattern. There was no particular time.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather from all this, from the fact that your
acquaintanceship with Ruby ripened into friendship, and ripened further
in the fact that you were sharing an apartment together, that you got
to know the man pretty well as a man, and knew his habits?
Mr. SENATOR. I knew something about them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. His likes and dislikes. You expressed an opinion about
that already and that is what I would like to get to now with reference
to particular areas. You have mentioned the question of dogs, and I
would like you to tell us about what you know of him with reference to
dogs and his attitude towards them and so forth.
Mr. SENATOR. He had enough of them.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather from that you mean he had plenty of them?
Mr. SENATOR. He had a few dogs.
Mr. HUBERT. All the time that you have known him was that so or when
did that begin?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I don’t know when it began because he had dogs the
first time that I got close to him or acquainted with him.
Mr. HUBERT. That is about 2½ years ago?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know anything about the dogs?
Mr. SENATOR. Previous to that I didn’t know anything about dogs before.
Mr. HUBERT. I guess the number of dogs varied, didn’t it?
Mr. SENATOR. It happened to be why he had so many dogs, his dog Sheba,
who was attacked by one of Sheba’s sons at a later date, gave birth to
six at one time. What are you going to do? He had dogs.
Mr. HUBERT. So he kept them.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He didn’t want to give them away.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did he keep them?
Mr. SENATOR. They were born in the apartment. He had them in the
kitchen until they were old enough, you know, whatever age that they
might be, a month or two, and then he brought them down to the club
and he puts them way in the back room of the club. He used to bring
everybody in “See my dogs.” Of course, his pet was Sheba, which
everybody in this country knows.
Mr. HUBERT. She was the mother?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that was the mother of the whole crew. So he wound up
with——
Mr. HUBERT. Did Sheba stay at the club or at his house?
Mr. SENATOR. Both. Jack goes to the club, Sheba goes with him.
Mr. HUBERT. Sheba was always with him?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this was the only one. I would say on rare occasions
he would probably bring the other dog home or two, just overnight.
Mr. HUBERT. He gave some of the dogs away didn’t he?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Jack had close to 10 dogs. He had about 9 or 10 dogs.
Don’t forget Sheba had six at one clip.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his attitude towards these animals? Was it a
normal attitude that people have to dogs?
Mr. SENATOR. I know people have mentioned it to me before in the past
and the quotations that I have heard though I have never heard them
from him though I have heard them otherwise like “My family” or “My
wife.” I have read these. I am certain everybody else has too or heard
it. But he liked dogs. To me this has no meaning. To me it has no
meaning when he says this.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear these comments made by other people concerning
Ruby and his dogs prior to the shooting or afterwards?
Mr. SENATOR. What?
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the shooting or afterwards?
Mr. SENATOR. Prior I don’t recollect. I don’t say—it had to be prior
to. No; it had to be prior.
Mr. HUBERT. You have read perhaps a lot about the dogs——
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Since the shooting?
Mr. SENATOR. I heard somebody mention once that he went up to see his
Rabbi Silverman who I am certain you probably heard of I guess, and I
don’t know if he had two or three dogs with him or what it was. I’m not
sure of the words he used but I think he said to the Rabbi “I want you
to meet my family” or something like that. There was a quotation he
used. Now this may have been it, I’m not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there other people that you remember who commented to
you about Ruby and his dogs? You have mentioned one. That is that he
was——
Mr. SENATOR. I heard two things already. One was “my family” and one
was “my wife,” which absolutely has——
Mr. HUBERT. Both of those you heard prior to the time Jack went to jail?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; these were prior to it, but when I heard it it was
after, see.
Mr. HUBERT. I see. You mean that the remarks were made prior?
Mr. SENATOR. The remarks were made after, that is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Wait a while, let me get that straight, the remarks were
made after?
Mr. SENATOR. After.
Mr. HUBERT. But the occurrences were supposed to have, the facts were
supposed to have occurred prior?
Mr. SENATOR. Prior. Right. Prior I never heard.
Mr. HUBERT. You do not remember having heard anything prior to the
shooting?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your own opinion as to his attitude toward these
animals?
Mr. SENATOR. Like any other human being who had a dog for a number of
years.
Mr. HUBERT. There was nothing abnormal about it?
Mr. SENATOR. Nothing. To me, there was nothing absolutely abnormal
about it. Just like anybody else having a dog, and I am certain anybody
who has a dog he has had about 5, 6 or 7 or 8 years who is very much
attached to him. I would probably say the overall picture of the
majority owners are attached to a particular dog of whatever the dog
may be.
Mr. HUBERT. There is some rumor if you want to call it that that at
some time or another Jack had a strange sort of relationship with one
of the dogs. Have you any comment to make on that?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t listen to that stuff because it is not true.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you never saw anything of that sort yourself?
Mr. SENATOR. Never, never, and I tell you this from my heart.
Mr. HUBERT. From your knowledge of Ruby and his relationship with the
dog, do you think that that is likely or unlikely?
Mr. SENATOR. What?
Mr. HUBERT. From your knowledge of Ruby and of his relationship with
those animals do you think that such a story is likely or unlikely?
Mr. SENATOR. That he would have?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No; that is so far-fetched I don’t believe in that stuff.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you be a little bit more explicit about why you feel
that way?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I feel that I have been around him enough to see him
pet the dog, and I pet the dog many times. I picked up the dog many
times like anybody else has picked up a dog and just scratched him on
the head but I have never seen an incident like this, at no time.
Mr. HUBERT. What about his interest in physical culture and keeping
himself in good shape? There have been some reports about that but you
are in a position perhaps to give us further details about it.
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he loves to swim, and when he gets into a pool he
can really go from one end to the other and go, because I heard it
mentioned one time he said “George you know I used to be able to swim
2 or 3 miles” which I would probably say is a pretty good distance. I
know I can’t do anything like that, or nowheres near it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he do any ice skating?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, we were ice skating once.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he good at it?
Mr. SENATOR. He was good because—I’ll tell you why he was good, because
he had never been on ice skates before.
Mr. HUBERT. You just know of one occasion he had been on ice skates?
Mr. SENATOR. Sir?
Mr. HUBERT. You just know of one occasion that he was on ice skates?
Mr. SENATOR. I was with him and a group of people one time. They asked
me to go, too, and did I suffer.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the first time he had been, too, to your knowledge?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if that was the first time we had been. I
mean I was only there one time. That was over at the fair ground in
Dallas, but he had been I think twice. And the people who he was with,
you know, we had some of the show folks there of the help, the people
who worked there, thought he did very well for a man who had never been
on ice skates, including his age.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he take any regular exercise so far as you knew?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; his dumbbells. He didn’t do them every day but he
did them quite often. Not the dumbbells; what do you call the things,
weightlifters.
Mr. HUBERT. Weightlifting equipment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He had them in the house?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he exercised and very frequently he used to go to the
YMCA which he went for quite a long while. He has gone to the Y before
I ever knew him or even became acquainted with him.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his general physical condition?
Mr. SENATOR. Excellent.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he a powerful man?
Mr. SENATOR. A powerful man?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I’ll tell you, I won’t want to get rapped by him.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever heard of any of his episodes in which he
tangled with people?
Mr. SENATOR. I have never had the pleasure—I can’t say pleasure. I have
never really witnessed a battle with him. Now I have seen him poke a
couple of people.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean between him and other people.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have seen him poke a couple people.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about those, would you?
Mr. SENATOR. Take for instance in the club. All right, here is a man
who is of a temperament you know, he is a temperament man. He has a
temper. And I would probably say that he flies off, if you want to
compare us, I am an angel when it comes to flying off compared to him,
because he can go this fast, you know. I mean he can fly off pretty
well. If somebody was hollering or out-of-line or pinch a girl which
happens now and then while the girls are dancing he doesn’t like this.
Mr. HUBERT. You said you remember two specific instances. Could you
just tell us about those.
Mr. SENATOR. I’ll tell you one.
Mr. HUBERT. About where they happened and the time.
Mr. SENATOR. I saw one happen, this was outside of the club, this one.
Do you want it in the club or out of the club?
Mr. HUBERT. Any one.
Mr. SENATOR. This was outside of the club.
Mr. HUBERT. When was it?
Mr. SENATOR. Last year.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time last year?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say it was sometime last summer.
Mr. HUBERT. The summer of 1963?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened.
Mr. SENATOR. I was sitting in the Burgundy Room. You know where the
Burgundy Room is?
Mr. HUBERT. The Adolphus Hotel.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I was in there having a drink and I was sitting with
this fellow here.
Mr. HUBERT. Who, what fellow?
Mr. SENATOR. His name?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Don Taber or Tabin.
Mr. HUBERT. T-a-b-e-r or T-a-b-i-n?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You were with that man?
Mr. SENATOR. I was with him for a while but he shifted. He saw some
girl and went over to talk to her.
Mr. HUBERT. So you were alone at the table?
Mr. SENATOR. I was sitting there. I was sitting at another table and I
assumed he come in looking for me to see what I was doing.
Mr. HUBERT. Who came in?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack Ruby. Jack don’t like to have me drink. He doesn’t
like to see me getting drunk. He thinks I’m always drunk all the while
which I am not. And as he walked in through the door, this Don Taber
was getting pretty well loaded. He had a few drinks in him, you know,
and he has always had a grudge against Jack for some reason or other,
I don’t know what it was, and Jack was always telling him “Don, I want
you to stay away from me” and I have heard him warn him once before by
the club, downstairs from the club. Well, he used a pretty obscene word
with him. I don’t know if you want to take this down or not?
Mr. HUBERT. On the occasion in the Burgundy Room?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; you tell us what happened exactly.
Mr. SENATOR. I think he told him to go “F” yourself.
Mr. HUBERT. Go what?
Mr. SENATOR. Do you want me to use the word?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. He told him to go —— himself.
Mr. HUBERT. Who told who?
Mr. SENATOR. Don to Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. Told that to Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he is a type, he is a great guy when he is sober but
when he isn’t he is not easy to get along with you know.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean when Jack came in?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Taber or Tabin told him that?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And there had been no previous conversation between them?
Mr. SENATOR. No; because he has always picked on Jack for some reason
or other.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me get the picture. Jack walks into the room and this
man Taber says “Go —— yourself?”
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. To Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened?
Mr. SENATOR. I forgot what Jack says. Jack says something to him. Then
I think there was an answer back or something, I just don’t remember
but all I know is Jack let him have it, hauled off.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he hit him?
Mr. SENATOR. He hit him.
Mr. HUBERT. With his fist or what?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any knucks?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or pistol?
Mr. SENATOR. It was his fist, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened?
Mr. SENATOR. So they got into a little battle.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack knock him down with that first blow?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. So they actually squared off?
Mr. SENATOR. They squared off. It didn’t last long though.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened?
Mr. SENATOR. They stopped it but the other fellow got the worst of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he knocked off his feet?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he a big man, this Taber?
Mr. SENATOR. He was a little taller than I. I believe he was a little
taller than I. But I would probably say he is a chap about maybe around
I would say between 165 and 170 or 175. I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. And how tall?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say he is probably, and I am only guessing, I
would say maybe 5 feet 9 inches or 5 feet 10 inches.
Mr. HUBERT. How big a man is Jack by the way in point of height and
weight?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack I think, is about 5 feet 9 inches.
Mr. HUBERT. And weighed what?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack weighed around 185, somewheres around that, 185.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you consider most of that was bone or muscle or did
he have much fat?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he is 52. I don’t care how you drill yourself, I am
certain there is a certain amount of flab that hangs around the side
which I didn’t dare comment on. If I told him that he didn’t like it.
But still there is a certain amount of flab, but he had a powerful
back. I mean to look at the man’s back at his age, he had a tremendous
back.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he fast with his fists?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say for his age he was.
Mr. HUBERT. When you saw this battle with Taber?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he was pretty fast.
Mr. HUBERT. And he definitely got the best of him?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the other occasion?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, there was one occasion where he hit somebody I
didn’t catch it with my eye but I happened to be there. I was there and
he hit a guy bigger than him. I don’t remember what it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us where that was, in the club?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, it was in the club. It was in the hallway near the
stairs. But it happened to be I didn’t see it because I happened to be
around the side and all I caught is the tail end.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when?
Mr. SENATOR. That was in 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he knock the man off his feet?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. But I know he got the first lick in.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that? He told you?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I heard he always gets the first lick in. He ain’t
going to get hit first if he can help it, if it comes to an argument.
Mr. HUBERT. Is this the opinion that is generally held?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if that is the opinion that is generally held
or not.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is how you got it. Is that your
opinion then that he always gets the first lick in?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say so because he is pretty fast for his age.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the provocation for his hitting the fellow at the
club?
Mr. SENATOR. I think this chap here was getting a little loud. I don’t
remember what the incident was. I think he was making a scene there of
some nature.
Mr. HUBERT. Those are the only two occasions that you yourself knew
about from having observed them yourself?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I have seen him push somebody out without hitting him.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen that often?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I don’t say often. I have seen it happen. And when it
has happened, he happened to hold down certain people.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him threaten anybody?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Like throwing them down the stairs?
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard somebody talk about that. Who did I hear? Oh
yes, I’ll tell you where that was quoted. When I was on the witness
stand and Mr. Alexander asked me that.
The question he asked me, if I can quote him, was that he picked on
nothing but small men who were drunk and women who were drunk and beat
them up.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your answer?
Mr. SENATOR. If I recall right, he sort of hollered at me a bit if I
remember right.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did?
Mr. SENATOR. Mr. Alexander.
Mr. HUBERT. But in any case what is the truth?
Mr. SENATOR. What did I answer him?
Mr. HUBERT. What you answered I suppose is the truth. What is the truth
as to that question.
Mr. SENATOR. I’ll tell you how I answered him.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, all right; tell us that first.
Mr. SENATOR. I answered him, I said to Jack Ruby, height has nothing to
do with it, or something to that effect if I remember right. It doesn’t
make any difference if the man is bigger than Jack Ruby because that
isn’t going to stop him. Jack Ruby isn’t afraid of height or size,
something like that I answered him.
Mr. HUBERT. That is your opinion now, too?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you base that opinion on what?
Mr. SENATOR. In other words, I base this opinion to say, when I was
asked this question on the witness stand, that all he would do would
beat up people who were smaller than he and who were drunk.
Mr. HUBERT. And you think that is not so?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I say that he doesn’t go according to size. I mean I
know that he doesn’t fear anybody who is taller than he is.
Mr. HUBERT. Now how do you know that? How do you form that opinion
right now?
Mr. SENATOR. How do I form that opinion?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Because I think Jack is of that temperament where size
don’t mean anything to him.
Mr. HUBERT. You just base that upon your general knowledge of the man?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t think he is of the nature who would back off.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see him act in what might be considered brutal
in the sense that he went further than he had to go with reference to
anything?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never witnessed any.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know or have you ever heard of an occasion where he
had a fight with a man who bit part of his finger off?
Mr. SENATOR. I haven’t seen it. I mean I see the finger. I have heard
that, yes. How it happened I don’t know. There was some sort of a fight
and the guy bit it. Now what happened I don’t know but I’ve heard that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack ever talk to you about it?
Mr. SENATOR. No; as a matter of fact I have noticed his finger, you
know, I have seen his finger but I never asked him why, because it
happens to be we both got the same type finger. Mine is a paper cut.
His cut much more off than mine.
Mr. HUBERT. He never told you how he lost that part of the finger?
Mr. SENATOR. He told me that he lost it, somebody bit his finger in
a fight. Now I don’t know if it was the Silver Spur or wherever it
happened. I just don’t remember where or how it happened.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear about him beating up a taxicab man who
came in to fetch a fare, or to collect a fare?
Mr. SENATOR. I have never seen it.
Mr. HUBERT. You have heard about it?
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard about it. I never heard no names or anything
of that. I heard about it but I have never seen it.
Mr. HUBERT. Now you have expressed to us your opinion that Jack is a
man who was not fearful of anyone irrespective of size. Would you give
us your opinion as to whether or not he was the type of man, from all
you know of him, who would be brutal in a fight? By brutal I mean when
he got his man down he would kick him and be sure he was down, kick him
in the groin, in the head or something of that sort?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I couldn’t answer that. I have never
witnessed anything of this nature.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you an opinion?
Mr. SENATOR. You would ask me guess then and if I guessed I wouldn’t
know what I was guessing at.
Mr. HUBERT. I would ask you to guess on the same basis that you
expressed an opinion that he was afraid of nobody.
Mr. SENATOR. He certainly wasn’t afraid of size. In other words, if the
man happened to be 6 inches taller than him he wouldn’t back off.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was formed I think you told us from your general
knowledge.
Mr. SENATOR. That is right. He wouldn’t back off.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your opinion from your general knowledge?
Mr. SENATOR. Now when you ask me about kicking and all that, I mean I
don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. You know the man and that is all I’m asking. Is he the type
of man who would do that in your opinion?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. First of all I don’t think so.
Personally, I don’t think so, but after all I can’t answer for what
another individual would think in his mind. I don’t know, see.
Mr. HUBERT. We understand this is merely your opinion, you see.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t personally think so. I don’t think he would
be that brutal.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw him in this fight with Taber or Tabin?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, but there was no kicking.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you about this. I take it this was not a
prolonged thing. Jack hit him once and that was it?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; there were probably six or eight blows swapped.
But I would say Jack got most of the blows in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And this guy swung. What caused Jack to stop? Did somebody
pull him off?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they stopped it. They stopped it and pulled off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This episode at the Carousel that you saw, you say you
didn’t actually see any blows thrown at the Carousel. You came in at
the tail end of it.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I would say, see, there is an archway; in other words,
it is going up a flight of steps.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. And at the flight of steps the doors open and then there
is a walk in, you know, an archway. It is almost like in a closed
archway which is maybe about 20 or 25 steps. Well, around the =L= shape
of it I didn’t see.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you tell from where you were how many blows were
thrown?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did this last?
Mr. SENATOR. It didn’t last long because there must have been one or
two blows and that was it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody come in and break that up?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what happened. I just don’t remember what
happened there. I think he knocked him down. I’m not sure. I think he
knocked him down with that blow.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack accomplish his purpose?
Mr. SENATOR. There was a few people gathered around and the next thing
I think they took him down or something like that. I don’t know. I just
don’t recall what happened on that particular incident but I do know
that something did happen at the time where this fellow I think he was
drunk. I really don’t know if he was. I think he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever talked with Jack about what his attitude is
about using his fists?
Mr. SENATOR. No; this, which I don’t know too much about his youth, it
probably comes from the bringing up of his youth, the poverty that the
family went through. His father was a habitual drunkard, of which I
have heard, and the separations of the family and they lived in a cold
water flat and the only way I’m familiar of something of this nature is
what I have seen in motion pictures of past years of this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want you to tell me now if you think I am wrong. I am
going to suggest this to you and I want to know if this is a fair
evaluation.
Would you say from what you know of Jack that the background that he
came from was such that he had the value that one of the ways you
solved problems is in certain kinds of situations you haul off and
smack the guy, and that this is a tool that people use? Now there are
some people who in their daily life wouldn’t hit anybody because they
don’t think that is a proper thing. Would you say that Jack looked at
this as a tool that was perfectly acceptable to use?
Mr. SENATOR. To tell you the truth if I answered it I don’t even know
if I would be answering it correctly. I would probably say maybe in
certain aspects yes and maybe others no. I really couldn’t answer
correctly. I couldn’t give you a truthful answer on it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why is that that you couldn’t give an answer?
Mr. SENATOR. Because I couldn’t, because I can’t think for what the man
thinks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t know that much about him?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To be able to say that?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I would probably say maybe in certain
instances it may happen. Maybe in others it wouldn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask it this way. Knowing Jack Ruby, would you say
that there are situations where Jack would haul off and hit a guy, not
because he was emotionally concerned but because he felt this was the
way to solve the problem at that particular point.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think so. I don’t think so. I would probably
say that he would have to be beefed up pretty good about something
before he hit somebody. I would probably say that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the case with the man at the Carousel?
Mr. SENATOR. Apparently the man, which I never saw, apparently he must
have done something wrong. I don’t know what it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But this wasn’t something where he built up a head of
steam on this guy.
Mr. SENATOR. Maybe this is something that just went off
instantaneously. Maybe the guy said something to him which I didn’t
know. Maybe he called him a curse word, you know. I don’t know what it
could have been.
Mr. HUBERT. You have indicated along here in your testimony,
particularly in answer to a question of a little while ago, that he had
a fast temper. I think you said he was a man of temper. I think that
was your phrase?
Mr. SENATOR. Agree.
Mr. HUBERT. And you snapped your fingers and said he would just go like
that.
Mr. SENATOR. He could have a pretty fast temper.
Mr. HUBERT. Now that must be based, that is to say your impression must
be based upon episodes when you witnessed him losing——
Mr. SENATOR. I witnessed him on me, but not hitting me.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about——
Mr. SENATOR. Hollered at me, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about some of the episodes that you saw concerning
yourself or others which indicated to you that he had a fast temper?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, if there should have been discussion about
something, whatever it might be, with me he would make wrong and holler
at me and flare up at me.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by “make wrong”?
Mr. SENATOR. I could never be right with the man, see what I mean? I
couldn’t be right. In other words, if I said black was black he would
say no it is white and that is it.
Mr. HUBERT. And he would do that in a gruff fashion do you think?
Mr. SENATOR. With me? Oh my, you have no idea how many times he has
hollered at me but he’d never lay a hand on me. And the funny thing is
that is how fast he got over it, and he’d forget about it.
Mr. HUBERT. You snapped your fingers again? You mean that he would——
Mr. SENATOR. In other words, when I snapped my fingers I meant he would
get over it that fast from me.
Mr. HUBERT. So, from your own experience there have been innumerable
occasions where he would react toward you in such a way that you would
describe it as anger, manifested——
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Wait a while.
Mr. SENATOR. You would think he was going to hit me but I knew he
wouldn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. This anger being manifested by a loud tone and certain
gestures which would indicate he was going to hit you, but didn’t, and
that you have seen many times, and you also tell us that——
Mr. SENATOR. I have seen it on myself at certain times. Many times with
others, but whatever the thing might be, I mean I don’t know. Like I
told you before, if somebody come up there and pinched a stripper or
something like that, which has happened, man, this would throw him off.
He didn’t like that.
Mr. HUBERT. But you say he would calm down right away?
Mr. SENATOR. He would calm down right away. And he would warn them
“Again, out” and he would put them out. There wouldn’t be any
hesitation. He protected his girls up there, this I’ll tell you, at all
times.
Mr. HUBERT. I want to explore another aspect of this that you have
mentioned, and that is that as quickly as he flared up he seemed to
flare down, if you want me to put it that way, calm down. Can you give
us examples of that?
Mr. SENATOR. I can give you examples of myself on that.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean that following one of these flareups that you have
described?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he would holler at me.
Mr. HUBERT. Then it would be all over.
Mr. SENATOR. He would holler at me and raise the roof at me and then he
would tone down.
Mr. HUBERT. How long would it take?
Mr. SENATOR. A matter of a minute or two.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he wouldn’t brood over it. Having gotten
mad at you he wouldn’t be a brooder. He would change to another subject
and be quite his normal self again?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. See I couldn’t make this man wrong. I can’t make
him wrong, you know. I’m the wrong one. I refer to myself, mind you.
Whatever it might be I can’t be right.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the way he treated you?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To stay in this same general area here, did you know that
Jack owned a pair of knuckles?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when he bought them?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I would probably say that he probably had them before
I was ever close to him. I am only guessing. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you learn that he had them?
Mr. SENATOR. I saw them in a cloth sack once. He carried them in a
cloth sack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he keep that sack?
Mr. SENATOR. No particular place. The one time I saw it, it was home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep anything else in the sack?
Mr. SENATOR. Of course, he had a gun which everybody knows. You see,
Jack’s bank account was his pockets, not the bank but his pockets. That
is where his bank was. And he always carried various sums of money,
which could be $1,500, $2,000, $3,000, $4,000, whatever it might be, in
all different pockets.
Mr. HUBERT. Now before we explore that area further, I want to get a
few generalities concerning Jack. What were his drinking habits? You
shake your head. What does that mean?
Mr. SENATOR. He is not a drinker.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t drink at all?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t drink at all, or very little?
Mr. SENATOR. I wouldn’t say at all but I would probably say if he took
a half dozen drinks a year he took a lot.
Mr. HUBERT. How about smoking?
Mr. SENATOR. No smoking whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his attitude toward women?
Mr. SENATOR. Like any other man.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say any other normal man?
Mr. SENATOR. Any other normal man.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever observed any traits which suggested to you
the possibility of homosexuality?
Mr. SENATOR. Never.
Mr. HUBERT. On his part?
Mr. SENATOR. Never.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any peculiar mannerisms which might have
suggested such a thing to other people, even though it was not so?
Mr. SENATOR. I never noticed it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he lisp?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. So do I.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack has a lisp?
Mr. SENATOR. He has a lisp. He has always had it to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. In your opinion he was not homosexual at all?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Just as normal as any human being.
Mr. HUBERT. He was single.
Mr. SENATOR. He has got a brother older than he is and single, never
been married, Hyman.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any girl friends?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he went out with various girls.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at is what you know about his sex
relationships.
Mr. SENATOR. His sex relationship, you know I’m not there to watch
wherever he may be.
Mr. HUBERT. Still you may have some knowledge of facts which would
throw light upon that.
Mr. SENATOR. He likes women.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mr. SENATOR. How do I know he likes women?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I like women.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever tell you that he liked them?
Mr. SENATOR. Did he ever tell me? In any normal conversation I’m
certain anybody here, who doesn’t say they don’t like women. I think
this is a normal thing to say.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is simply this. Very naturally
as you pointed out a moment ago, it is very rare that there are any
eyewitnesses to acts of sexual intercourse. On the other hand, there
are other facts and circumstances from which one may judge if a man is
having sexual intercourse with a particular woman, and that is what I
am trying to get at. Do you know of any such things?
Mr. SENATOR. This here I’m never around.
Mr. HUBERT. What?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean when he is having sexual intercourse with a woman?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; of course you wouldn’t be around, but do you have any
opinion as to whether or not he was having any affairs of a sexual
nature with anybody? If you are reticent about naming names, perhaps we
can leave that off.
Mr. SENATOR. I have no names to name, but I am certain that he likes
women. I know he talks to them like I talk to them or anybody else
talks to them.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever bring any to the apartment that you know of?
Mr. SENATOR. I am certain he has had them up for coffee when I have
been there, such as that or a drink or talk, conversation. He has had
even the help up there, you know. Once in a while we have a party. This
is when I turn out to be the cook.
Mr. HUBERT. But you can’t tell us then of any particular person that
you would think Jack had intimate relationships with?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know of any at all that you could even suggest in
your own mind?
Mr. SENATOR. I have seen him talking to many girls but if anything of
that nature I am not around where he don’t want me around.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever ask you to leave, for example, because he was
having some feminine company, or indicate that he was?
Mr. SENATOR. On rare occasions he has said he was going to have some
company or somebody over.
Mr. HUBERT. And he indicated that he wanted you to leave?
Mr. SENATOR. On rare occasions.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the sort of thing I am talking about that would
indicate some factual situations upon which you can base your opinion.
That is what I was speaking of a moment ago when I asked you for facts
and circumstances that would throw light on your opinion, recognizing
fully that normally one never actually is an eyewitness to such a
thing. Do you have any other types of episodes or evidence of that
nature?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his relationship do you think with the girls at
his club, I mean the waitresses?
Mr. SENATOR. The girls in his club? Strictly business, strictly
business.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that if a person said that Jack was on the
make for every one of the girls that worked for him it would be a wrong
statement?
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard that expressed many a time.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you think about that statement?
Mr. SENATOR. It definitely is a wrong statement.
Mr. HUBERT. You never saw it.
Mr. SENATOR. Now what their conversations may be, you know, after all,
he has talked to all the girls in the club at one time or another. What
the conversations are I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. But you never saw anything that would indicate to you in
any way, or heard anything by him that would lead you to the conclusion
that his relationship with any of the girls was of an intimate
character?
Mr. SENATOR. No; if it was, I didn’t know about it.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Jack’s attitude about what his girls did in the
nature of sexual intimacies with other people than himself?
Mr. SENATOR. The girls working in the club?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. You refer to the strippers or the cocktail waitresses?
Mr. HUBERT. I refer to both, and if there is a difference between them
then I would ask you to explain the difference.
Mr. SENATOR. Well, if there was any and he heard about it, I am certain
he would probably yank him out. He didn’t go for that bit.
Mr. HUBERT. Something must have happened that leads you to that
opinion. What is it that leads you to that opinion that he would
certainly have done something about it?
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard him mention that he doesn’t want anybody
outside using any of his girls.
Mr. HUBERT. You yourself have heard him say that?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he don’t want any of his girls going out with
customers. He didn’t want the place to have a reputation such as that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he carry that policy to the point of supervising the
personal lives of his strippers and waitresses beyond the area of
relations with people who were in the club?
Mr. SENATOR. Beyond the area?
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you mentioned a moment ago that he didn’t
want any girls to have any dates or anything with any patrons of the
club or customers.
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now my next question is did he extend that policy of
supervision of what his girls did to their personal relations with
people who were not patrons of the club?
Mr. SENATOR. That I don’t know. I don’t know about that. I don’t know.
First of all there can never be controllability of that. After all,
where they are, that is their business, wherever they are, whether it
is day or night. This I can’t even answer you.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack sensitive about his religion?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how you know that?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he didn’t like the M.C.’s having any jokes about the
Jewish race, things of that nature. Now I have heard him say so to a
couple of M.C.’s already.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever talk to you personally about it, say anything
to you?
Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly. I mean it has always been in the
open. I have even heard him say it right in the club. He don’t want any
Jewish jokes. He was sensitive this way.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think he was overly sensitive on the subject?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I don’t know, overly sensitive, but he was sensitive.
Mr. HUBERT. Is he more sensitive than other Jews that you have known?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say he is; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. With reference to his religion, did he practice it actively?
Mr. SENATOR. As far as going to church, synagogue?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. He went to church; he went to synagogue on holidays.
Mr. HUBERT. That is, Jewish holidays?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; always.
Mr. HUBERT. He wasn’t one who went regularly then to synagogue?
Mr. SENATOR. This I don’t know. I would have to leave this question
because I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you lived with him.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. During the time that you lived with him did he ever
indicate or did you gather that he was a regular churchgoer?
Mr. SENATOR. They go on Friday nights.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever see any pattern of his going on Friday nights
regularly?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I have never seen a pattern of it. Now I don’t say
that he has or hasn’t been. Maybe he has at certain times and probably
not on other times. I don’t say this is every Friday night that
he goes, no. I wouldn’t say that. But he does make, you know, the
important holidays.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you consider him to be a religious man?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how, to tell you the truth, I don’t know how
to break it down for you, how religious he is. Now we never went into
an aspect to talk about just how religious he is. All I can say is that
he observes as to holidays.
Mr. HUBERT. He never told you anything which would indicate that he was
either religious or not religious.
Mr. SENATOR. No. Well, I think he fasts on a certain type holiday.
He fasts, for this kind of fast it is really something, but he does
observe those things.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean not the regular Saturday fast?
Mr. SENATOR. No. This is the one time of the year you fast. You don’t
eat anything for 24 hours. I know he does that.
Mr. HUBERT. I think it is a good time for recess.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask one question here. Does he belong to any lay
organizations connected with any of the synagogues in town?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he belonged to them or not. This I can’t
know. But I think he went—it was Temple Emanuel. I don’t know which one
he went to. I think it was Temple Emanuel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge, do you have any knowledge of his ever
participating in any activities, Jewish activities?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. B’nai B’rith?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say maybe in donations or something like
that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Other than giving money he didn’t belong to the
synagogue’s men’s clubs?
Mr. SENATOR. No, not to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. Supposing we take a recess now until 2 o’clock.
(Whereupon, at 12:35 p.m., the proceeding recessed.)
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR RESUMED
(The proceeding reconvened at 2 p.m.)
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Senator, we are now continuing the deposition which we
began this morning. I am sure you understand and I want the record to
show that this deposition is being continued under the same authority
and under the same conditions as it began this morning, and also that
you are under the same oath. Now there are a few more general areas
that I would like to talk to you about concerning the character of Jack
Ruby and the type of man he was. Let me direct your attention to the
political beliefs and thinking of Jack Ruby, and ask you what comment
you have to make about that.
Mr. SENATOR. None whatsoever on his beliefs on political issues.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you mean by that that you don’t know?
Mr. SENATOR. Break down when you say political issues.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean do you know anything about what his thinking was
from what he told you concerning his beliefs about politics in general?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he was not of the nature, he never went into anything
of that nature.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him discuss international politics?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to show any interest in international affairs
as they were developing?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean would he be the type of person that would read the
newspapers at all? Did he read newspapers at all?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure; he read newspapers religiously every day.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he read all of them, I mean every part of it?
Mr. SENATOR. I will tell you, when you ask me that, I tell you where
his reading is. On the toilet bowl. That is where all his reading is—is
on the toilet bowl. It may sound funny, but it is true.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us any idea from what you know, of what his
reaction to international events was, such as, for instance, the Cuban
crisis in 1962?
Mr. SENATOR. He never discussed these.
Mr. HUBERT. You are familiar with what I am talking about? I think it
was in the fall of 1962 when we discovered that Cuba had some possible
atomic weapons over there, a subject of national interest.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have read that.
Mr. HUBERT. And the Berlin crisis of the year before?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the sort of thing I mean. Did he comment about that?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it your thought that he just had no interest in that
sort of thing at all?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, if he did or not, he never discussed it too much.
He would read a paper. He would read his ad. He reads these—of course,
I am certain he reads all parts of the paper, but especially the
entertainment part, he was very anxious in reading.
Mr. HUBERT. Normally when two people share space such as you do, and
are in each other’s company and have any conversation at all, the
conversation normally relates to the topics of the day, as it were, as
reflected by newspapers and other news media.
I wonder if you can throw any light on what his attitude was or his
interest was towards topics of the day of international import.
Mr. SENATOR. I just don’t recall. All I know is that he reads the—of
course, I am certain he reads all of the paper, you know, or various
parts, but he would talk about show business a lot with me, see.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear him discuss at all any international
incident?
Mr. SENATOR. I just can’t think offhand. I don’t say he did or didn’t.
I just can’t think offhand if he did or didn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever seek to engage him in small talk, shall we
say, about subjects of that nature?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he talked about the President. I remember once we
were watching a picture of President Kennedy’s kid going between the
desk. He thought that was so wonderful, you know, enjoyed over that. I
remember that distinctly.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he saw that on TV?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this he marveled over. But the discussion, we never
went into papers too much. He was mainly, I know when he grabbed the
paper the first thing he would go to is the show part of it, his
competitors, the show part of it, the night life, Tony Zoppi, with a
nightclub. He is like, I don’t know how to compare him, to somebody who
writes a column in New York.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall in all of the years you have known Jack of
his being interested in international affairs to the point that you can
remember any discussion with him?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. At all?
Mr. SENATOR. I really can’t think offhand. I don’t say that he probably
hadn’t, but I just don’t think offhand.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember any such discussions?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Now what would be your impression, knowing Jack as a whole,
of his interest in international affairs?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. The reason I asked you that, although I realize it is an
opinion question, is because you have been able to give us your opinion
on other aspects of his life and character, for instance, that he was a
man who was not a homosexual, and so forth, and you based your opinions
upon your experience with him, and this is just another aspect of his
character, that is all.
Now I am simply asking you what is your opinion about his interest in
communism or rightism or leftism or middle-of-the-roadism or any kind
of ism.
Mr. SENATOR. The only way I can refer to anything of that nature is the
time we saw the billboards.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean that was——
Mr. SENATOR. The impeachment of——
Mr. HUBERT. After the President was——
Mr. SENATOR. Right; this was the time that I saw——
Mr. HUBERT. We will get to that, but are you willing to say now, as
far as you can remember, that that is the only time you ever saw him
interested in a matter of that nature?
Mr. SENATOR. You see, when he gets home at night, the first thing he
heads for is the bathroom, and the paper goes with him, and from there
on he sits there, I don’t know, 45 minutes reading the paper.
Mr. HUBERT. I appreciate your comment because it throws some light on
it, but I would like to have an answer if you can give it to me to that
question. I don’t know if I can rephrase it.
(The previous question was read by the reporter.)
Mr. HUBERT. Can you answer that question?
Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t get that.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if I can rephrase it. You mentioned that you saw
him interested in a matter that concerned an ism. I had previously
asked you whether or not he had, to your knowledge, any interest in
rightism, communism, leftism, middle-of-the-roadism, and you mentioned
that one incident.
Mr. SENATOR. Those, none whatsoever, because he is a lover of the
country he lives in. He was never——
Mr. HUBERT. I suppose that would be called Americanism.
Mr. SENATOR. Americanism. He loves the nation he is in.
Mr. HUBERT. You formed that opinion, of course, on certain events or
things that he told you. Can you refer to what those things would have
been?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I can’t, but I know that he has never belonged to any
organizations. He has never attended any meetings to my knowledge, and
this is the only way that I can in all reality base it.
Mr. HUBERT. You say that he is a lover of his country. Now, did he
say so or did he act in certain ways regarding certain instances that
caused you to form that opinion?
You see what I mean, any impression that you have about anybody is
based upon your reactions to things said or done, and that is all I am
asking you to say.
Now you say he is a man who loves his country. I ask you, did you
hear him say so or did you get that impression from things he did, or
attitudes?
Mr. SENATOR. I just take this for granted that he does, the same way as
I take it that I know that I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you know you do from your own experience, but on
the other hand you don’t know about somebody else.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how to base it with him. I know he is very
fond of the city he lived in.
Mr. HUBERT. And how do you know that?
Mr. SENATOR. Because he has told me he likes Dallas. He likes Dallas,
he likes everything about it. He liked living there. He liked it
because there wasn’t any hustle and bustle like any large, big city
like New York or Chicago or California.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you similar facts or experiences upon which to base
your opinion that he is a lover of the United States as such?
Mr. SENATOR. I can’t base it on anything. It is only what I think. And,
of course, to my way of thinking I think everybody does.
Mr. HUBERT. I think I am beginning to see what you mean. You assume
that everybody loves their country.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Unless there is something to the contrary.
Mr. SENATOR. Sure.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask some questions along that line.
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead and do it now unless you prefer to wait.
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I would just as soon, when you finish with an area,
pick up from notes I have been making.
Did Jack Ruby, George, to your knowledge show any interest in any
political candidates for local office in Texas?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know on that. I will tell you, as far as I know of
him, he has never spoken of or never messed around with anything like
that, political-wise or anything of that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him with any campaign literature for
anybody?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I haven’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see him with any literature of any political
sort that would be other than newspaper literature?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You know in Texas and elsewhere there are all sorts of
organizations that are putting out literature, the John Birch Society
and Civil Liberties Union.
Mr. SENATOR. He never messed around with that. The only first showing I
ever seen of any nature was that night he woke me up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned that Jack read newspapers, and you thought
every day. Did you have a newspaper delivered to your apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he bought it on the way home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he read newspapers from outside of Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he bought the morning paper and the evening paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he buy the Fort Worth papers?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and Fort Worth, come to think of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular reason why he should buy a Fort Worth paper
rather than a Dallas paper?
Mr. SENATOR. No; because he bought them both. No particular reason, but
he would buy them both for news or see what is going on in Fort Worth,
I assume.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He would buy a Fort Worth paper at a Dallas newsstand or
would he only buy the Fort Worth newspaper when he went to Fort Worth?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he would buy a Fort Worth paper, I will tell you where
he bought it, he bought it at the Adolphus Hotel. He always picked
his paper up at the stand in front of the Adolphus. He would buy the
morning news. As a matter of fact, he would buy any paper that was
laying around there that the man had in front of the stand there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he read the Wall Street Journal?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t even think he could understand it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about magazines? Did he subscribe to any magazines?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Time magazine, Newsweek?
Mr. SENATOR. I never seen any magazines come in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any magazines around the house?
Mr. SENATOR. No; the only magazines I ever bought was Reader’s Digest.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you people have a television set at your apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you have a radio?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack accustomed to being at home and watching the TV
or listening to the radio?
Mr. SENATOR. On the TV part; yes, he would put that on. He would have
that on, and, of course, there is two things I know interested him on
TV.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were those?
Mr. SENATOR. Those were Westerns and the stories, you know, whatever
stories there might be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean the movies?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the movies, and he liked the Westerns, you know, the
half-hour or hour programs, whatever they were.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a radio in his car?
Mr. SENATOR. He had, what do you call those little things?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Transistor?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; transistor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have one that was installed in the car itself?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean put in?
Mr. GRIFFIN. You know.
Mr. SENATOR. He had it put in?
Mr. GRIFFIN. A car radio.
Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes; installed with the car?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this any sort of special kind of radio?
Mr. SENATOR. No; just a radio that came with the car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It wasn’t equipped to receive any kind of frequencies?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. FM or anything like that?
Mr. SENATOR. No. As a matter of fact, the last car he bought he bought
second-hand, which he thought he had a good buy on, and he bought it,
and, of course, the thing had a radio in it, you know, whatever make it
was. Nothing special about, just the ordinary car radio.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about your radio at home? Could that pick up FM?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or shortwave?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if it could or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a radio was it?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t even know the make or the brand. One side there
was a clock and the other side was a radio.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it then your conclusion about Jack Ruby would
be that he didn’t have any particular political feelings one way or
another, and he wasn’t a great patriot and he wasn’t disloyal. As far
as you knew he was just an ordinary American citizen.
Mr. SENATOR. He was a good, sound American citizen, and politics, he
never messed around with that. He never messed around politically at
all. The majority was connected with the music industry, the night
life, you know, his club, his competitors, what they were doing.
Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to the automobile and the radio——
Mr. SENATOR. Pardon me.
Mr. HUBERT. Concerning the radio in the automobile, what was his custom
about putting it on when he was riding? Was it his custom to put it on
or not?
Mr. SENATOR. No, not. He normally didn’t put it on.
Mr. HUBERT. Normally he would not put it on?
Mr. SENATOR. Normally he wouldn’t have it on. He also had one of the
little transistors, one of these transistors that he had. The reason he
had this transistor, of course he had it before I was around, the car
he had before then, the radio didn’t work, so he had the transistor.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did he keep it, in the automobile?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he laid it on the seat.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he play it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he put on the music.
Mr. HUBERT. So that was his custom when he was driving around, instead
of turning on the radio in the automobile?
Mr. SENATOR. I wouldn’t say at all times. Certain times he would put it
on and play the music.
Mr. HUBERT. He would play the transistor?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. That was on the car he had when the radio, the car
radio was not working.
Mr. HUBERT. What was Ruby’s habit so far as you know concerning his
finances, and his banking and so forth?
Mr. SENATOR. As far as I know about it, his bank was his pockets. Now,
if he had any banking, I don’t know what he had in it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe then that he carried large sums of money?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes; always. Everybody knew that.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, how did he carry it?
Mr. SENATOR. In ready cash.
Mr. HUBERT. But I mean did he roll it up and put it in his pocket?
Mr. SENATOR. Rolled it up or have a string around it, not a string, you
know, one of these rubber bands around it. He would carry some here and
he would carry some here, and some here, and some in his back pocket. I
don’t think he knew where he had it half the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that when the witness was saying “here,
here and here,” he was pointing to various pockets.
Mr. SENATOR. This is the way. As a matter of fact, he used to say to me
“George, where is my money,” because he can’t remember where he put his
money.
Mr. HUBERT. Now you were with him frequently when he closed up the
Carousel at night and you would go home?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How was the money handled then, that is the receipts of
that night?
Mr. SENATOR. In his pocket.
Mr. HUBERT. We have heard something about a canvas bag, a money bag.
Did you ever see that?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t know what he would have in the bag. You know
when it comes to money, that is his business. It doesn’t get that close
to me.
Mr. HUBERT. No; we are just asking you what you observed, that is all,
about his handling of it.
Mr. SENATOR. He has had money in the bag, and he has had it in his
pockets. Now I don’t know what the separation could be unless he has
got a certain amount of money for bills or what it is I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. When he had money in the bag where did he leave the bag?
Mr. SENATOR. The bag? In the trunk.
Mr. HUBERT. In the trunk of the car?
Mr. SENATOR. While going home.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you would come out of the Carousel he
would take his bag up, and it had money in it, and bring it and throw
it in the trunk of the car?
Mr. SENATOR. Right. He would get home, open the trunk, take the bag up.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know anything about a gun that he had, a pistol?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what you know about it.
Mr. SENATOR. I know he had a pistol, one of the small ones. In the
nature of his type business, carrying all this money, this cash with
him, this is why he always had the gun with him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he keep the gun on his body?
Mr. SENATOR. At times he had it on his body and at times he had it in
his pocket.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he own a holster for the gun?
Mr. SENATOR. No; not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Either a shoulder holster or a hip holster?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never seen it.
Mr. HUBERT. So when he carried a gun on his person where would he keep
it?
Mr. SENATOR. It would be in his pants pocket or sometimes it may be in
the bag.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know anything, from talking to him or otherwise,
about the ownership of the Vegas Club? Who owned the Vegas, in other
words, as far as you know?
Mr. SENATOR. As far as I know Jack Ruby owned it.
Mr. HUBERT. Am I correct in assuming that your opinion on that point is
from what he told you, or did he say anything else?
Mr. SENATOR. I always understood that he owned it, I mean as far as I
know. Of course, there is a lot of things that I don’t know that he
never told me, you know. He doesn’t expose everything.
Mr. HUBERT. Eva Grant was actually the operator of it, wasn’t she?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but Eva always felt like she was the owner. This is a
sister. Of course, she had it and managed it for quite a while. I don’t
know how long she managed it, has been at the Vegas Club, because it
was before me even, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. On what do you base that opinion that she thought that she
really was the owner?
Mr. SENATOR. Because I assumed that Jack was a brother and she felt it
was like hers.
Mr. HUBERT. You see what I am trying to get at is whether or not there
are any statements or incidents that occurred which led you to the
opinion that she thought she owned the Vegas. Do you see what I mean?
Mr. SENATOR. The only way I could express that is Jack used to say to
me that “Eva thinks she owns the club,” because she has been staying
there so long.
Mr. HUBERT. How do they get along?
Mr. SENATOR. They are both of the same nature, like cats and dogs.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it from that you mean they used to fight a lot.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; because as well as Jack would holler, let me assure
you she can holler too.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have been a witness to some of those instances?
Mr. SENATOR. As a matter of fact, the further away the better.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t quite understand.
Mr. SENATOR. For me the further away the better. In other words, I
shied away from all that. I didn’t want to listen to that kind of stuff.
Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying is——
Mr. SENATOR. I am not happy over the fights.
Mr. HUBERT. My question is how frequently it happened.
Mr. SENATOR. How frequent I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. But you were a witness to some, I take it, and when it
began you would want to get away, is that the idea?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I tell you where I heard most of it, I mean what
I can recollect is when around the telephone. Of course, I can’t
hear her, but I can hear him shouting, so apparently I know there is
something that is flickering.
He is hollering at her about something, or she is hollering at him
about something. See, she is hard to get along with, with the employees
of the Vegas Club. She is just hard to work for. All I know is I never
want to work for her.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the ownership of the Sovereign and the Carousel?
Do you know anything about that, who owned that?
Mr. SENATOR. The Sovereign, he has some partner. I don’t remember who
his partner was. Of course, this is all before I got that close, but he
had a partner in the Sovereign Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Joe Slayton was it?
Mr. SENATOR. That is it, Joe Slayton.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course, Slayton ultimately got out of it, didn’t he?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it your impression that Jack owned the Sovereign
entirely?
Mr. SENATOR. No; Joe Slayton was a part owner.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean after Slayton left.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know about that. That is a little before me.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Ralph Paul? Did he have any part in it?
Mr. SENATOR. Ralph Paul had a part in it. I don’t know what the
breakdown was, but I know Ralph Paul was connected with it.
Mr. HUBERT. Connected by way of ownership?
Mr. SENATOR. I believe he was connected by ownership. I mean if he
owned half or what it was I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. On what facts do you base that?
Mr. SENATOR. On guesswork. I know he had something to do with it. What
part he owned I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. What facts make you state that you know he had something to
do with it? There must be something that occurred again.
Mr. SENATOR. Nothing occurred because I mean I have seen Ralph, I know
Ralph, and I know there is the association of him having a part of that
club somehow.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it to you this way. Did Jack ever tell you that
Ralph Paul owned part of it?
Mr. SENATOR. Not directly, but I knew. You know as well as I know Jack,
there was an awful lot of things he didn’t tell me circularwise. You
can say moneywise where he kept his money, if he had a bank account, I
know he had a connection with Ralph Paul. How much Ralph owned I don’t
know.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Paul ever tell you anything about his interest or
ownership?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the first time he mentioned it to me, and, of course,
this is after this whole deal happened.
Mr. HUBERT. The shooting?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you?
Mr. SENATOR. He said once that he had a part of that place there. He
was part owner of that place.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when he told you that, and where?
Mr. SENATOR. He told me at the Carousel, but I don’t remember when. I
mean I can’t specifically remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that he took over the management right
away, as soon as Jack was in jail?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he did. Now, I don’t know how much he owned or how
much Jack owned.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that it was an ownership interest?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, there was, but how much I don’t know. In other words,
I don’t know who owned the bigger piece or if it was equal.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that only the two of them had an interest in
it?
Mr. SENATOR. To my knowledge. I don’t know of anybody else.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear of his brother Earl having a possible
interest in it?
Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Earl?
Mr. SENATOR. Sure. The first time I met Earl is, of course, when all
this happened.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know him before that?
Mr. SENATOR. Never seen him before in my life.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Sam?
Mr. SENATOR. Sam? I knew Sam. I have never seen him that often. Of
course, I met Sam at the Vegas Club. Sam at one time worked there with
Eva, and they couldn’t get along, so Sam was out, fighting like cats
and dogs. Eva is just a hard girl to work for.
Mr. HUBERT. What was Jack Ruby’s attitude toward the police as a group?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, all I know is apparently he must like them. They
always used to come to see him.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about those who came to see him. Do you know who
they were?
Mr. SENATOR. I knew a lot of them by face. I didn’t know them all by
name.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they come frequently?
Mr. SENATOR. Various ones, yes, every day. I don’t say it is the same
ones, whoever was coming in, but they would either be plain clothes or
police in uniforms.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they come to inspect or to enjoy the club as a place of
entertainment?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, they came to inspect, to my knowledge I would say
they came to inspect, but Jack always offered them a coffee, asked them
if they wanted coffee, a Seven-Up or a Coke.
Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t it a rule in fact that they could get such little
items as coffee and Cokes and Seven-Ups and soft drinks without cost?
He gave them that?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that was the nature of it.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the arrangement about the entrance fee? They
didn’t pay that, if they came socially?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You have been on the door yourself?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any instructions on that?
Mr. SENATOR. No, they didn’t pay entry.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they pay for drinks?
Mr. SENATOR. They had a special rate.
Mr. HUBERT. What was it?
Mr. SENATOR. I think 40 cents, or anybody that was a friend of his—in
other words, for an example, your taxi drivers, the taxi drivers used
to bring customers. In other words, an out-of-towner would say “where
can you go,” they would say the Carousel or the Colony or wherever they
may bring them.
So they brought them up there, in other words, if they were off duty
and wanted to come up, they were guests of Jack’s, and they paid a
special price for drinks.
Mr. HUBERT. And they didn’t pay the admission charge?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Now the fellows who worked downstairs in the garage,
they were allowed in, but at a special price. The special price was no
different for anybody. It was all one price, the special.
In other words, they gave them a discount on beer or the setups,
whichever they were having, and your hotel bellcaps and things in that
area, he always let them in free.
I mean he was good to these type people, you know, and, of course,
these weren’t people of tremendous means or of that nature, and
everyone had a cut price, he always gave them a discount on the drinks.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to go back a bit. Talking about the ownership of
the Vegas Club and the Carousel Club, did Jack rent the premises of the
Vegas Club or did he own part of that building?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I think he rented it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He rented it, so when you talk about ownership of that
operation out there——
Mr. SENATOR. Not owning the building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are not talking about any real estate.
Mr. SENATOR. No, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He did have some physical assets out there I suppose? He
had tables and chairs?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And a piano maybe?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So, that is what you are talking about when you talk about
ownership?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Right?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. In other words, ownership, I refer to the merchandise
or the things in the place, not only the building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the right to get the profits if there were any?
Did he get the profits off the Vegas Club or did Eva Grant get the
profits, or did they share it in some way?
Mr. SENATOR. This part I don’t know. All I know is the money was
handled by Eva, and which way the money ever swung was left out of
my—wasn’t any of my business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack had a practice at the Carousel, and correct me if I
am wrong about this, that at the end of every night, he would take that
night’s receipts and he would take them down to his car, right?
Mr. SENATOR. Either that or put them in his pocket.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or put them in his pocket?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, whichever he saw fit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what would he do once he got that money in his pocket
or in the car? What would he do with it, take it back to the apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would he do with it in the apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. Just leave it in his pants or whatever it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a safe back in the apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a safe at the Carousel Club?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he visit the Vegas Club every night?
Mr. SENATOR. No. He would probably say he would visit the Vegas
Club—you know, for a while they were running this amateur hour every
Friday, and Jack would go after he closed the Carousel, he would go
over to the Vegas because the Vegas would stay open one hour later.
I don’t know how to describe it. They were able to stay open until
3 o’clock in the morning, and they would have a little bit of
entertainment from 2 to 3, and Jack would sort of MC it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you say Jack wouldn’t go there every night?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many nights a week would he go to the Vegas Club?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say, of course, I can’t always say, I
don’t always see him all the time, you know, and I am not with him all
the time, but I would probably say it was more so weekends. Now, during
the week I don’t say that he probably hasn’t jumped over there, because
if he has I don’t even know, because when he does go out he doesn’t
tell me his moves where he is going.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were living with Jack at the Carousel Club in
that period of time, how long was that that you lived at the Carousel
Club?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how long he lived there before me. I don’t
know how long he lived there previous to when I came, but I wasn’t
there too long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there a week or 2 weeks?
Mr. SENATOR. It might be. I just don’t remember how long it could be.
It might have been 2 weeks. It might have been 3 weeks, I don’t know.
It might be that long. Mind you, I want you to know this is guesswork.
I am only guessing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your impression that during the week on 5-day weeks
that maybe 3 or 4 nights out of a week he would not go to the Vegas
Club?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am saying that he wouldn’t go to the Vegas Club. There
would be 3 or 4 nights out of the week that he would not go to the
Vegas Club?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; I would probably say that, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what was done with the money over at the Vegas Club
every night?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know, that part I don’t know. I am not familiar
with that part.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Jack take any money from the Vegas Club
and bring it back to the apartment or put it in his car or in his
pockets?
Mr. SENATOR. No; not out of the Vegas. I don’t know if it has been
done, but I haven’t witnessed it. The money is handled, at the Vegas
the money is handled by Eva. Now, how she disburses it or banks it I
don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any bank accounts that Jack maintained?
Mr. SENATOR. He had one bank. What he had in it I don’t know. I am
trying to think of the name of the bank. Do you have a listing of the
banks he has? Can you refresh my memory on it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I can give you a list of banks and read off some names.
Tell me if any of these are familiar to you. How about the Park Cities
Bank and Trust Company?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the National Bank of Commerce?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The American Bank and Trust Company?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Mercantile National Bank?
Mr. SENATOR. No; see, if you can find one on—continue.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, the Industrial National Bank.
Mr. SENATOR. Merchants. Have you got Merchants? That is the one I am
thinking of. I think he had a bank account at the Merchants.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But not the Mercantile National Bank?
Mr. SENATOR. If he did I didn’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there two different banks, one the Merchants and the
other the Mercantile?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the South Oak Cliff State Bank?
Mr. SENATOR. If he did I didn’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you only heard of one?
Mr. SENATOR. I heard of the Merchants.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him discuss what was done with the
receipts from the Vegas Club?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Eva Grant mention that?
Mr. SENATOR. No; but I will tell you what I assumed. I assumed the
money was paid, what money was taken in, I assumed that the employees
were paid off, the band was paid off, the gas and electric and the rent
would come out of that. This is what I assumed, or whatever incidentals
there might be. Now, the disposal otherwise I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Then the fact is that you don’t really know how the funds
at the Vegas were handled?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or what part Jack got of it?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now let’s move to the period of the week of the
assassination of the President Can you tell us first of all where you
were when you heard of the assassination?
Mr. SENATOR. I was in a bar having a liquid lunch. I was uptown. I was
in a bar and had a couple of beers for lunch instead of eating lunch,
and some chap walked in, who I don’t know, and he drove up with his car
and he had the radio on, and as he walked in he said, “The President
was shot.” And I hollered “You’re kidding.” He says, “No; I am not
kidding.” So we got outside, and this is all going on on this car radio
we listened to.
Mr. HUBERT. That was in downtown Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I was uptown.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you seen the Presidential parade?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t see it at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Jack planned to see the parade?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he comment about the President’s visit?
Mr. SENATOR. You see, let me jump a little ahead of that. That morning,
you see, of course, which is a working day for me, I am up much earlier
than he is, and he was sleeping when I left that morning.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him the night before?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the night before.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you discussed the visit of the President, his coming
the next day?
Mr. SENATOR. We talked about that. We talked about the President was
coming in, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of his comment concerning this?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember what he said.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t mean the words, but the ideas.
Mr. SENATOR. Well, we were happy that he was coming.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack was too?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; coming into Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack tell you why he felt happy about it?
Mr. SENATOR. No: I just don’t remember if he did relate that or not,
but we thought it was a great honor for him to come to Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he think his coming would help business in Dallas
generally, and his business in particular?
Mr. SENATOR. No; there was no comment on that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he state whether or not he was going to try to see the
parade?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t mention that.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have previously said in a statement that you
saw him sometime that night, and he went out or something, and then,
you went to bed?
Mr. SENATOR. No. The next time that I saw him was the following morning
when he woke me up.
Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about the night now of the 21st, before
the President was shot, Thursday night, you all talked about the
President’s coming. Did he go out or stay at home, do you recall?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he is at the club. He goes to the club.
Mr. HUBERT. He is at the club?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You went to bed, and when he came in I assume you were
sleeping.
Mr. SENATOR. You are talking about Thursday?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, I am talking about Thursday night and Friday morning.
Mr. SENATOR. Thursday night—the President came in Friday.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but Thursday night did Jack follow his usual routine?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; his usual routine.
Mr. HUBERT. You were asleep I guess when he got back?
Mr. SENATOR. Thursday night I don’t remember if I was or not.
Mr. HUBERT. Anyhow, Friday morning when you got up he was asleep.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you didn’t talk to him until you heard of the death of
the President?
Mr. SENATOR. No; the next time that I talked to him was Saturday
morning.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t speak to him at all on Friday afternoon after
the death?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I never saw him at all. I was out. I was out all day.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go home on Friday night at all?
Mr. SENATOR. Sure.
Mr. HUBERT. What time?
Mr. SENATOR. Friday night I must have went home around somewheres
between 10 and 11. Of course, I bought the paper at the Adolphus before
I went home. I always buy a paper, too.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack home then?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. He had not attempted to contact you from the time of the
President’s death at all?
Mr. SENATOR. No. He couldn’t contact me because I was around.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you try to contact him?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you bring out where it was that he was around?
Mr. SENATOR. When I said “around”?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. SENATOR. Around town, no particular place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you going from bar to bar?
Mr. SENATOR. No, not bar to bar. I had been at a couple of bars. I was
with a friend of mine that night, and we went out, we had a couple of
beers and we were so disgusted, if you can picture the overall picture
of Friday night in the city of Dallas after the occurrence, what
happened that afternoon or late that morning, the city was, I don’t
know how to describe it, morguelike. They were brooding. Everybody was
brooding, a sad affair.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course you don’t know whether Jack went to the apartment
on Friday night before you got there?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. So you went home and went to bed.
Mr. SENATOR. I read the paper in bed, and that is when I saw the why’s
about the President. They had a list, “Why, Mr. President?”
Mr. HUBERT. A full-page ad?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; “Why, Mr. President,” so and so, “Why are you here?”
Mr. HUBERT. The one signed by Bernard Weissman? W-e-i-s-s-m-a-n.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You saw that before you saw Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. As a matter of fact, I read the paper in bed.
Mr. HUBERT. You went to sleep, I take it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened next?
Mr. SENATOR. The next thing I know somebody was hollering at me, and
shaking me up. This was around 3 o’clock in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. That was who?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. Now describe him to us at that time. What was his condition?
Mr. SENATOR. He was excited. He was moody; and the first thing come out
of his mouth is the incident. Of course, the incident what happened
to President Kennedy, and he said, “Gee, his poor children and Mrs.
Kennedy, what a terrible thing to happen.”
Mr. HUBERT. Had he been drinking?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack don’t drink.
Mr. HUBERT. He wasn’t drinking on this occasion?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he don’t drink, no.
Mr. HUBERT. And his remarks were concerning the children?
Mr. SENATOR. The children and Mrs. Kennedy and how sorry he felt for
them.
Mr. HUBERT. What other comments did he make?
Mr. SENATOR. Then he brought up the situation where he saw this poster
of Justice of the Peace Earl Warren, impeach him. Earl Warren.
Mr. HUBERT. He said he had seen that poster?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he had saw that poster.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say when he had noticed it?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I think he noticed it that day or sometime that day, I
assume. I am not sure, but I think it was that day, and I assume that
when something goes into his brain he wants to follow it up and find
out why, why that poster was up there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you had some experiences like that before?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But I mean you said some experiences where he got
something in his mind and he wanted to find out why, and he followed it
up.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I can’t relate any, but I assume these
things could happen.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you had never had any experience of that sort?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I haven’t had any experience.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So, this was a new experience for you.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and he made me get dressed.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you when he made you get dressed?
Mr. SENATOR. He was telling me about this sign here.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did he want you to get dressed?
Mr. SENATOR. He wanted me to go down to see the sign, and meanwhile he
had called. He had a kid sleeping in the club who helps around, and he
has got a Polaroid camera. So he calls the kid up, wakes him up.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear that call?
Mr. SENATOR. What?
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear that call?
Mr. SENATOR. Yeah, he calls him up and says, “Larry, get up, get
dressed,” something of that nature, “and get that Polaroid with the
flashbulbs and meet me downstairs. I’ll be right downtown.”
Mr. HUBERT. That was after he told you to get dressed?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; after he told me first.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he at that time comment upon or notice the Weissman
ad that you had been reading the night before, the big ad that you
commented upon, “Why, Mr. President,” I think it was called?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember he noticed it there or he noticed it
after the incident. Now, if he seen it before I just don’t remember,
but I know after we got through this incident, which I will relate to
you, we were looking at this ad.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was at the house?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; this was—I saw it myself originally.
Mr. HUBERT. In the newspapers?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You had the newspaper on your bed. You had gone to sleep
reading?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I probably threw it on the floor. I think I threw it
on the floor before I went to bed.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case you have no recollection that you discussed the
ad prior to leaving the house?
Mr. SENATOR. I just don’t remember if I did or not, but I do know that
we did look at that ad that night at another place.
Mr. HUBERT. We will get to that. What happened next then?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I got dressed, went downstairs, got in the car. I
got dressed. We went downtown. We picked up Larry. He drove over to
where this billboard was.
Mr. HUBERT. Had he told you where it was beforehand?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he told me it was on the corner of Hall and the
expressway.
Mr. HUBERT. Which expressway?
Mr. SENATOR. North Central Expressway. I had an indication because I
sort of knew the location of the area. I know where Hall Street is and
I know where the expressway is.
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead. Just pick up as to what happened.
Mr. SENATOR. So we went downtown and picked up Larry. From there we
drove over to where this billboard was, and he had the kid take three
Polaroid shots of this billboard. Now, what his intentions were with
these I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t express any?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t say what he was going to do with them but he
wanted three shots.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him or did anyone else ask him why he wanted to
take pictures of this?
Mr. SENATOR. No; all he said to me, “I can’t understand why they want
to impeach Earl Warren.” He said, “This must be the work of the John
Birch Society or the Communist Party.” And he wanted to know why.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say how taking a picture would help him to find out?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t. He didn’t say how that would help him to
find out. So from there we went down to the post office.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Larry go with you?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. To the post office, I mean.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do at the post office?
Mr. SENATOR. Wait now, we went down to the post area. This sort of
slips away from me when the time gets by on the ad. We must have
discussed it or seen it at the house. I just remember now, but I think
we probably did. We must have seen it. So anyhow we went up to the post
office.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say “the ad”——
Mr. SENATOR. The paper ad.
Mr. HUBERT. The Bernard Weissman ad?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the Bernard Weissman ad.
Mr. HUBERT. So you now think, and let me get it straight, you
previously stated that you weren’t sure?
Mr. SENATOR. I wasn’t sure.
Mr. HUBERT. That Ruby had noticed the Bernard Weissman ad after he had
wakened you at the house, and you were dressing, and before you left,
but you think now you must have?
Mr. SENATOR. We must have because we went to the post office.
Mr. HUBERT. When he did see the ad, was there a comment about that?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he wanted to know why on this.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there were two things he wanted to know why
on.
Mr. SENATOR. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Why the Earl Warren poster and why the Bernard Weissman ad?
Mr. SENATOR. Right; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So then he had you take Polaroid pictures of the poster
concerning Chief Justice Warren, and then you went to the post office.
Mr. SENATOR. We went to the post office.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of going there, and in connection with
what?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, that was in connection—going to the post office was
in connection with the paper ad now.
Mr. HUBERT. How was it connected to the paper ad?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, there was a post office box on this ad. I just don’t
recall the number of the post office box. But he wanted to see if there
was such a box.
Mr. HUBERT. So did you go into the post office with him?
Mr. SENATOR. We went into the post office. We saw a box with that
number on it. There was a lot of mail in there.
Now, of course, who it belonged to—we don’t know if it belonged to him
or not, but he did press the night buzzer. There was a little hole
there where you get the night clerk, and he asked the night clerk who—I
think it was 1762 or something like that. I just don’t remember the
number.
He asked him who it is. The night man says, “I can’t give you any
information. Any information you want there is only one man can give it
to you and that is the postmaster of Dallas.”
Mr. HUBERT. Did Ruby make a reply to that?
Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge. You mean to him?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; to the clerk. Did he say anything more?
Mr. SENATOR. No; if I am not mistaken, I think he said “How do you get
to the postmaster” or something of that nature. I am not sure now.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he annoyed with the clerk?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he wasn’t annoyed with the clerk, but he was deeply
annoyed with the ad, with both ads.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you how checking the box at the post
office would assist him in whatever he had in mind?
Mr. SENATOR. He wanted to know; he had also said that he had checked
the telephone directory and couldn’t find this Bernard Weissman, who
supposedly put an ad like this here, and couldn’t have been local
because he looked to see if there was a Bernard Weissman in the Dallas
telephone book.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see him look it up. He merely told you that?
Mr. SENATOR. He merely told me that. I didn’t see him look it up.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Larry Crafard go with you to the post office?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay in the automobile, or come to the post office
with you?
Mr. SENATOR. I believe he came into the post office. I have to guess on
this. I am not sure, but I think he came into the post office.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. SENATOR. Then from there we went to the Southland Hotel coffeeshop.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located?
Mr. SENATOR. That is on the corner, on Commerce, and I don’t know what
the little side street is, but it is just below the Adolphus Hotel on
Commerce Street. I don’t know what the side street is.
Mr. HUBERT. Who went?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack, Larry, and myself.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay there?
Mr. SENATOR. I would assume we stayed there—maybe about 15 minutes
would be a rough guess.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the nature of the discussion between you at
that time?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He reread this paper ad of the why’s of the President.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did he get the paper from?
Mr. SENATOR. It happened to be it was lying on the counter. The news
was lying on the counter, and, of course, he ruffled through it.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say he reread it; so now you are quite certain that
he had read it before?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he must have read it before. See, now, I can’t tell
you if he read it before that or I showed it to him or what. I just
don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case when he saw it at the coffeeshop, it was
obviously the second time.
Mr. SENATOR. He was very disturbed.
Mr. HUBERT. Or the third time.
Mr. SENATOR. He was very, very disturbed over both of these.
Mr. HUBERT. Explain what actions of his lead you now to the conclusion
that you describe as a disturbed condition.
Mr. SENATOR. His voice of speech; the way he looked at you.
Mr. HUBERT. His voice was loud or low or different or what?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it was different. It was different; the way he looked
at you. It just don’t look like the normal procedure.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever seen him in that condition before?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say—I don’t know how to put these
conditions together, but I have seen him hollering, things like I told
you in the past, but this here, he had sort of a stare look in his eye.
I don’t know how to describe it. I don’t know how to put it together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn’t catch that. What kind of a look?
Mr. SENATOR. A stare look; I don’t know. I can’t express it. I don’t
know how to put it in words.
Mr. HUBERT. But it was different from anything you had ever seen on
Jack Ruby before?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was noticeably so?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I could notice it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it disturb you any?
Mr. SENATOR. I wouldn’t say exactly I was disturbed, but I could notice
it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be concerned about the President’s death or
the ad or what?
Mr. SENATOR. To me, I would probably say it must have been a
combination of the entire thing. I know he was deeply hurt about the
President, terribly.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you know that. How do you know that?
Mr. SENATOR. What? By his feelings; by the way he talked about the
family and the children; by tears in his eyes, which I have seen, and I
am not the only one who has seen it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that he was more disturbed than the average
person that you know was disturbed about the President’s death?
Mr. SENATOR. All I know, while I can’t say about the average because
all I know, he was really deeply disturbed, but I can’t describe an
average because there might be another individual of his nature, too,
who knows. Who knows the affections of each and every individual?
Mr. HUBERT. In any case his reaction was such——
Mr. SENATOR. It was pretty well—you know, disturbed as I was and as
disturbed as I have seen many friends of mine, it was worse with him
than it was with the others who I have seen.
Mr. HUBERT. That is exactly what I was getting at. So he got hold
of this newspaper ad and read it again—is that it—that is, in the
coffeeshop?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he looked it over again.
Mr. HUBERT. What comment did he make, while reading it or after?
Mr. SENATOR. While reading it?
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t mean his words, you understand, his exact words,
but the meaning, the thoughts expressed.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the thoughts. He can’t understand it. It is so
penetrated in his mind he can’t understand why somebody would want to
do something like this.
Mr. HUBERT. The ad had nothing to do with killing the President?
Mr. SENATOR. No; but he couldn’t understand why an ad like this should
break out, about this ad. Another thing he couldn’t understand why in
the world would they want to impeach Justice Earl Warren. Incidentally,
that sign come out of Massachusetts, that billboard.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it your impression that Ruby was putting the three
instances together as being connected in some way; to wit: the death of
the President, the impeach Earl Warren sign, and the Weissman ad? Was
he seeming to do that?
Mr. SENATOR. He was seeming to do at that time—he was seeming to do
with the impeachment of Earl Warren, and the Weissman sign; he couldn’t
understand why these things were of a nature—I don’t know how long this
billboard has been out. I don’t know if it has been a day, two, or what
it was, and then the ad break out the same day that President Kennedy
was coming in. He wanted to know the whys.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, as I understand you, you gathered that was
running through his mind, was why the ad, and the poster, appeared at
the same time as the visit of the President; is that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say it is something of that nature, I
guess.
Mr. HUBERT. I want to distinguish that, if possible, from another
situation, and that is whether or not you gathered that he was disposed
to place the killing of the President together with the poster and the
ad.
Mr. SENATOR. Run that again.
Mr. HUBERT. From what you could gather from his attitude, from what
he said and how he acted, do you think it was running through his
mind that there was a connection between the Earl Warren poster,
the Weissman ad, and the killing of the President rather than the
President’s visit?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I would say the subject at that time, when he was
looking at the sign and taking pictures of it, and the newspaper ad,
that this is where he really wanted to know the whys or why these
things had to be out. He is trying to combine these two together, which
I did hear him say, “This is the work of the John Birch Society or the
Communist Party or maybe a combination of both.”
Mr. HUBERT. What is the work of those two; the death of the President?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no, no, no.
Mr. HUBERT. The publication of these signs?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He did not indicate what his impressions were as to who was
behind the death of the President?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t indicate that.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor did he seem to associate the ads and the poster with
the President’s death?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know about that part.
Mr. HUBERT. But you do know that he was wondering why these two things,
the poster and ad, should come out at the same time?
Mr. SENATOR. Now, mind you, I don’t know if they come out at the same
time, because the billboard, I don’t know if that thing was there a day
or a week.
Mr. HUBERT. But he was associating the two of those together?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Or trying to find out if there was any connection between
those two?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he wanted to know why.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was the fact that the ad was published and the sign
was posted that he attributed to the Communists or the Birch Society.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and he couldn’t understand why the Dallas Morning
News would ever print such a thing like that, say that in their paper.
Mr. HUBERT. You see what I am trying to get at is whether he manifested
in any way that his thinking associated the assassination of the
President with the posting of the Warren poster and publication of
the ad, or rather whether he was simply associating the fact of the
publication of the ad and the posting of the poster with communism, and
so forth.
Mr. SENATOR. To my belief I think he was trying to associate the ad and
the poster with the Communist Party or the John Birch Society.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not gather from what he said that he associated the
death of the President to the Birch Society or the Communists or any
other group?
Mr. SENATOR. Not at the time that we were talking; rather, he was
talking about the signs.
Mr. HUBERT. That is, the poster and the ad?
Mr. SENATOR. The poster and the ad.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you all talked to anybody else in the coffeehouse, in
the coffeeshop?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I don’t think there was anybody in there at that time
outside of, I think, a cashier and probably a waitress.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether he made any comment to the cashier or
the waitress?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Larry have any comment to make that you recall?
Mr. SENATOR. I just don’t remember if he had any or not.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, when Ruby stated what you said he stated
concerning the poster, and so forth, did you have any comment to make
about it?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, nothing compared to him. Of course, after I heard
him mention it, then I sort of wondered also why an ad like that would
be put in the paper, or why anybody would want to impeach Justice Earl
Warren. What did it mean?
Mr. HUBERT. Jack had taken the pictures and he had gone to the post
office to check on the box. Did he state what he intended to do further?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you tried to calm him down?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it your impression that his state was that he should be
spoken to by a friend and calmed down?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I don’t know. It is hard for me to say these things.
Who would really know?
Mr. HUBERT. But in any case you didn’t argue with him about his view?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I don’t argue with him at any time.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not state a concurring view, I take it?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or an opposing view?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor did Larry?
Mr. SENATOR. Larry I can’t speak for because I just don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. And you don’t remember whether Ruby spoke to anybody else
or anyone else spoke to him?
Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. Then what did you all do next?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you go on, did Jack indicate what he was going to
do with the photographs that he took?
Mr. SENATOR. No. He just took them and he never said what he was going
to do with them. Of course, I know what the windup was with them later
on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was that?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I believe the local policemen got them after the
shooting when they searched him, took his money and his papers, and all
of that, and I believe those pictures were with it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you——
Mr. SENATOR. At least I assumed the pictures were with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where this sign was located? When you rode
out there in the car, do you recall any conversation you had with him,
out to the sign?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That was covered.
Mr. SENATOR. You see, when I have to jump 5 months back, it is hard to
remember little things. It is not holding back. It is hard to remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you all go then?
Mr. SENATOR. From there he dropped Larry off, and Larry went back up
and went to bed, up at the club. Then we went home.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any further discussion at all between you and
Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. Let’s see; I think we put on the TV for awhile that
morning.
Mr. HUBERT. It was about what time of the morning when you got back?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say somewhere between 5 and 6. Of course, I am
guessing the time.
Mr. HUBERT. It was still dark, wasn’t it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, but I think it was sort of a break already; you know,
sort of lighting up a little bit.
Mr. HUBERT. Go on.
Mr. SENATOR. And if I remember right, I think it was a rerun of the
episodes of the day, if I remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to bed before Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean when we came back to the apartment?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. The same time. We went at the same time.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you all looked at TV for a period. How long
a period?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know; maybe 10 or 15 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you all went to bed?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You went to sleep?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether he did or not?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he went to bed. I assumed——
Mr. HUBERT. You were in a different room from him?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I assumed he did, because when I woke up he was still
asleep; you know, later on.
Mr. HUBERT. What time was that?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say I must have woke up around, I don’t know, 10
o’clock, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. That is Saturday morning?
Mr. SENATOR. Saturday morning. I would say something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. He was still asleep?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he was still asleep, but through the normal
shuffling, you know, going to the bathroom and such and such, it woke
him up.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was the telephone in that apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. In the living room, but it had a long wire.
Mr. HUBERT. But the ringing sound came from the actual machine itself?
The ring would be where the phone was located?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was the phone located that night, do you know, in the
living room?
Mr. SENATOR. I think it was in the living room.
Mr. HUBERT. How far from your bedroom was it?
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t——
Mr. HUBERT. As close as his?
Mr. SENATOR. Let me tell you. In the living room, of course, he had
one of these extension wires that would probably run, what, 13 feet or
something like that, 12 feet, I don’t know what the extension is, but
where it was at that moment I don’t know. I assumed that it was on the
table. I just don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Would he normally take it in his room?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think he could get it all the way in his room. You
see, he had the far bedroom and my bedroom was closer. I could take
it in mine, but I don’t think I could take it in his, or he might be
able to take it just partially a little bit, but I don’t think it would
extend that far.
Mr. HUBERT. If the phone machine was in the living room where it
normally was, you would be closer to it, right, than he would?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I take it you did not hear a phone call for him that
morning?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever had occasion where the ringing of the phone
wakened you?
Mr. SENATOR. I would have to say “No” on that because I am always up
before he is.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us whether or not if Jack had received a phone call
about 8:30 Saturday morning you would have heard it and it would have
wakened you?
Mr. SENATOR. If he did I just don’t recollect. I wouldn’t say he did or
didn’t have one because I just don’t remember if he did have one.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember if he had one?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That I understand. But what I am asking you is whether
or not the ringing of that phone in the position it was as you have
explained it that is closer to you than to him, would have awakened you.
Mr. SENATOR. Oh sure, sure. I could have heard it.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to go so far as to state that since it did
not awaken you, that there was no phone call?
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t quote because I don’t know if there was a phone
call.
Mr. HUBERT. That is not what I asked you. I am asking you whether you
are willing to state that if there had been a phone call, it would have
awakened you?
Mr. SENATOR. I would assume so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me go back a bit here. Up until the time you went to
bed early Saturday morning, had Jack told you what he had done since
the President was shot?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know of some of them. I know that he went to the
synagogue.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you did he tell you that night? I am not asking
you what you know now, but before you went to bed Saturday morning had
Jack told you what he had done that night, rather what he had done
since the President had been shot?
Mr. SENATOR. I think he went to the—wait, I don’t remember if he
told me that night or it was the next day. This is the thing I don’t
remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I am trying to get at is whether you have any
recollection.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember, but I do know that he had told me
that he went to a synagogue and that he brought sandwiches around to
the police station, these are things I knew that he did. But I don’t
remember if he told me that night or the next morning. I don’t remember
which time it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got up the next morning?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack up?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he was sleeping.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you see Jack before you left the house Saturday
morning?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes. He was still home when I left.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he awake?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you talked with him?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is where I had left off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. That is why I stopped.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said as a matter of fact here that the process
of your waking up and moving around the house and so forth wakened
him. How long did you stay around the house?
Mr. SENATOR. Saturday morning you are referring to?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; after awakening.
Mr. SENATOR. Saturday morning I must have left, as a guess, mind you,
somewhere around, maybe somewheres between 11:30 and 12:30. Of course,
I am only guessing. I could be a half hour off or I might be an hour
off.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say that you stayed around the house anywhere
from 1 hour to 2 hours after you awakened?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I would probably say that.
Mr. HUBERT. And during most of that time Jack was awake and up, too?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He awoke after.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you recall the substance of the conversations between
you during that period of either 1 hour or 2 hours or something in
between?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, we watched TV a bit, and he had mentioned—of course,
he wasn’t feeling good when he woke up—he had mentioned the fact, he
sort of rehashed the President and the kids all the time, how sorry he
felt for them and how a great man like President Kennedy could have
been shot. He thought this was a terrible thing to happen. Many a time
he went through this how sorry he felt for the kids and Mrs. Kennedy, a
poor tragic thing like this to happen to them.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that he had decided to close the clubs?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I wasn’t with him. That was Friday night.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that, but I mean by Saturday morning, we are
speaking of the conversations of Saturday morning.
Mr. SENATOR. No; this I already knew.
Mr. HUBERT. You already knew?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you find that out?
Mr. SENATOR. Friday night.
Mr. HUBERT. Who told you?
Mr. SENATOR. The ad in the paper.
Mr. HUBERT. That is how you first saw it?
Mr. SENATOR. That is how I knew. That was an ad at the same time——
Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss with him at any time, either on Friday
night or Saturday morning, the fact that he had closed the clubs, and
the reason therefor?
Mr. SENATOR. He told me why he closed the club. He put this in heavy
black, in heavy black block, that the Carousel will be closed Friday,
Saturday, and Sunday, because he thought it was a terrible thing for
anybody to be dancing and entertaining or drinking of that nature there
at a time such as this.
Mr. HUBERT. You say that he put an ad In the paper Friday night that
the club would be closed for 3 days?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what time because I assume he put it in
sometime Friday afternoon.
Mr. HUBERT. But the first time you saw the notice about the closing of
the clubs, there was an announcement that the club would be closed for
3 days?
Mr. SENATOR. Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, I mean Friday, Saturday,
and Sunday. That is the way the ad ran.
Mr. HUBERT. And you saw that on Friday night before going to sleep?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever talk to him about it?
Mr. SENATOR. About the ad?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Being closed?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I told him that I read it.
Mr. HUBERT. And what was his comment, or query?
Mr. SENATOR. He was hoping that everybody else would close. He was
hoping that the two other strip joints would close when they read his
ad, because he didn’t feel they should be open on account of the simple
reason of the tragedy that happened, where they should be having
entertainment, dancing, and drinking. He didn’t think it was the right
thing to do at this time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you that he thought it would hurt them
if they did not close also?
Mr. SENATOR. That it would hurt their business?
Mr. HUBERT. The other business, his competitors?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I don’t know about that, but I assumed, of course,
I am assuming only what I think, that I believe a lot of stores also
closed that day. I think Neiman Marcus closed. I believe in that
downtown area there was quite a few stores that did close.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it come to your attention that he was attempting to
keep his competitors from knowing that he proposed to close?
Mr. SENATOR. How could he when he ran an ad?
Mr. HUBERT. I mean for the Friday night.
Mr. SENATOR. To keep them from knowing?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever indicate to you——
Mr. SENATOR. As a matter of fact, I would think he would want them to
close.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mr. SENATOR. And I assumed that the way he put that ad in there. He
thought everybody should observe something, such as what happened.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware that he had told Larry Crafard not to put a
little sign that was posted in front of the Carousel, not to tack it
up announcing the closing of the Carousel until after the time for the
opening of the other competitors?
Mr. SENATOR. No; because I never saw him that day.
Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t indicate to you as a matter of fact that he
would like to see them open while he was closed?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. In grief over the President?
Mr. SENATOR. I was sort of inclined with my own thoughts in mind that
he would probably want to see them closed. This was my own thought of
mind.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack give you any of his reflections on how this
tragedy of the death of the President would affect the community of
Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. No; not that I can recall.
Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about either Friday night or Saturday or at
any other time.
Mr. SENATOR. You are referring to the individuals in the city of
Dallas, right, the people of the city of Dallas?
Mr. HUBERT. The business principally.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall his making any comment to the effect that
this tragedy would hurt the convention business of Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. If he said it I just don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he make any comment to you that you recall or heard to
the effect that the tragedy and the hurting of the convention business
would hurt his own Carousel and Vegas business?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. He did not comment upon that at all?
Mr. SENATOR. If he did, I just don’t remember. I really don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his general condition on Saturday morning during
the hour or 2 hours that you had occasion to observe him as opposed to
the condition that you have already described on Friday night?
Mr. SENATOR. He still had that hurt feeling within him of what
happened, and apparently this had never left his mind.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he talk about the poster and the pictures he had
obtained of it, or the Bernard Weissman ad?
Mr. SENATOR. He was now referring to the tragedy of the President, and
of the family, what would happen to the family.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, on Saturday morning the events of earlier
that morning, that is his agitation over the poster and his agitation
over the advertisement seemed to have passed away?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if it did or not.
Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t comment on it?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember him commenting on it.
Mr. HUBERT. And his attitude at least was different in that regard than
what it was the night before?
Mr. SENATOR. What he thought I still don’t know about that.
Mr. HUBERT. You have given us a description of what his reaction was to
the poster and to the ad.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now what happened——
Mr. HUBERT. That Friday night. All I am trying to do is get a
comparison of his attitude in those areas between the two times. Do you
see what I mean? I gather from what you tell me, let me see if I can
rephrase it, that on Saturday morning the stress, if it could be called
that, or the most important aspect of his reaction that you observed
was his feeling of sorrow as to the President’s family.
Mr. SENATOR. Saturday morning?
Mr. HUBERT. Saturday morning.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; which was working on him pretty good.
Mr. HUBERT. Now you say that it was working on him pretty good,
and that is a mental impression that must have been created by the
happening of events or by statements being made. How was it working on
him pretty good? What did he say or do to convey to you that it was
working on him pretty good?
Mr. SENATOR. He kept on repeating these things, numerous times he
repeated that.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that extraordinary for him?
Mr. SENATOR. I would think it would be. To me it would be.
Mr. HUBERT. And what else was he doing that indicated to you——
Mr. SENATOR. And I had seen him cry, because I guess who hasn’t you
know.
Mr. HUBERT. And what else?
Mr. SENATOR. And I had seen him cry, and he just got that funny look in
his eyes. I don’t know how to describe it. You call it a far-away look
or a look of something. I don’t now how to tear it down. But it wasn’t
a natural look.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have that impression that morning or have you
reconstructed all this in your mind after all the events had happened?
Mr. SENATOR. About his looks?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No; you could see it. After all, I have been around him
enough to know the difference.
Mr. HUBERT. You noticed the difference. And, of course, he shot Oswald.
Mr. SENATOR. What?
Mr. HUBERT. You noticed this difference, and you now have a
recollection of noticing that difference about the events of the next
day; is that right?
Let me show you what I mean. I want you to try to remember whether you
had a distinct impression, which you now recollect, on Saturday about
his worsening condition. Do you have that recollection now, Mr. Senator?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I could tell by facial expressions, facial look.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at is whether or not in thinking over
this thing as you must have done, of course, that you reconstructed all
of this, and that your recollection is of the reconstruction rather
than of the fact itself. Do you understand what I mean?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know what you mean when you ask me if I am
reconstructing it.
Mr. HUBERT. What I mean is this. When after all this whole thing came
to a climax with the shooting of Oswald by Ruby, you must have put all
of your thoughts together concerning those last days, and as a matter
of fact you have been questioned a number of times by a number of
people.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Including Government agents?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And including his lawyer. What I want to know is whether
what you are telling us now is a recollection of the reconstruction of
this whole period, or is it now a distinct recollection independent of
any reconstruction that you made in telling the story to anybody else.
Do you remember now, today, that on that Saturday morning you had the
feeling that man is getting worse on this subject?
Mr. SENATOR. That is the way he appeared to me.
Mr. HUBERT. And you remember that now, that that thought turned over in
your mind on Saturday morning.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it alarm you in any way?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how to describe myself with it, but I know it
didn’t look good.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your fear?
Mr. SENATOR. I wasn’t fearing anything. I just didn’t like the way he
looked.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say it didn’t look good, in what way do you mean?
Mr. SENATOR. It didn’t look like the normal look as I have known him.
Mr. HUBERT. Was your concern, if not your fear, that he might go off
his normal method of thinking or that he would do himself harm? I mean
were you concerned or was it just simply an observation which you
passed on?
Mr. SENATOR. I am observing all this. You know I can tell. But I didn’t
know what to think. I didn’t know how to think.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already said that you didn’t have any
fears of anything.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I wasn’t afraid of him.
Mr. HUBERT. No; but I mean were you concerned that something might
happen to him, that he might do something?
Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you think that——
Mr. SENATOR. The thing is I never asked him the thoughts within him or
what he was thinking about.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that maybe somebody ought to talk to
him about it, that his grief was going to the point, or his condition
of being upset was going to the point that somebody ought to talk to
him about it?
Mr. SENATOR. I know he visited his sister, and, of course, both were in
grief together, and I don’t know if he contacted his rabbi or not.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned a little while ago that he told you
he had been to the——
Mr. SENATOR. To the synagogue.
Mr. HUBERT. To the synagogue?
Mr. SENATOR. If he talked to the rabbi, I don’t know. Now, I know that
he went to the synagogue that Friday night to pray for the President.
Now, if he had personal contact with the rabbi I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether he went to the synagogue on Saturday?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I really don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. You left him at the house when you left?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you left at approximately 12:30?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say something around that nature.
Mr. HUBERT. He would certainly not have gone to the rabbi then, to the
synagogue, on Saturday morning.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I mean I couldn’t answer that. I wouldn’t
know.
Mr. HUBERT. Maybe you can, or at least you can give us some facts. He
was asleep when you awoke at 10:30, isn’t that right?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but he was up. He Was up when I left.
Mr. HUBERT. And you left at 12:30?
Mr. SENATOR. I am only assuming within an hour.
Mr. HUBERT. So it could have been 11:30?
Mr. SENATOR. 11:30, 12, 12:30. I can’t say because actually, you know,
when this period is going on, I am not watching clocks. I don’t own
one. I can’t go by a timetable because I didn’t have the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Certainly, he didn’t leave the house from the time he got
up until you left.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I left first.
Mr. HUBERT. That is correct.
Mr. SENATOR. Now, what time he left I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t leave the house from the time you got up
until the time you left?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, perhaps we can fix the time when you left a little
better by going on and seeing where you went. I ask you where you went?
Mr. SENATOR. Saturday where did I go? Saturday I think I stopped down,
I think my first stop was down at the coffee shop. I think I went down
for coffee, and my whereabouts, I don’t even know where I went that
day because I don’t work on Saturdays. I guess I probably just as well
stood around. Just where I went, I remember where I went Saturday
evening, but I don’t remember where I went Saturday afternoon. Just no
particular place or anything unusual.
Mr. HUBERT. You do recall that your first stop in any case was the
coffeeshop?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Which one was that?
Mr. SENATOR. I think it was Eatwell Coffee Shop that I went to.
Mr. HUBERT. You had sort of breakfast and coffee?
Mr. SENATOR. Coffee and. Maybe coffee and a doughnut or coffee and a
bun or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. You were driving the Volkswagen?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You were not on business?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say you have a distinct recollection of some event
that night?
Mr. SENATOR. Of where I was?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Oh yes; because when I came home that night, I think it
was around somewheres between 7 and 7:30, I think I come home that
night, and I come home with some groceries that I wanted to make. So I
made some groceries and——
Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack home at that time?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he was gone.
Mr. HUBERT. He was not there?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he wasn’t there.
Mr. HUBERT. That was about 7:30?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say I think it was around 7:30. So I made the
groceries and then I left some for him, and I ate and I was assuming
that maybe he would be home by the time I was making the groceries. But
he wasn’t home, so after I ate I went out again.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you been drinking that afternoon?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. Possibly I may have had a beer or two.
I just don’t remember. I am not a heavy drinker. I am not a drunkard,
mind you.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I didn’t mean to infer that at all, but I was wondering
why it was that you couldn’t give us any indication of where you went,
whether it was one or several places between noon or 12:30 until 7:30
that night. I think you can remember some of the things, some of the
places.
Mr. SENATOR. Well, let me see.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t come home until 7:30?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I was out.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you follow any usual Saturday afternoon routine?
Mr. SENATOR. No. There is nothing. There is no routine. Saturday, there
is no routine.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t call on any customers?
Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing. Just out, that is all.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you riding around for 7½ hours?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go?
Mr. SENATOR. This is what I am trying to think, where did I go. I don’t
remember if I called my lawyer friend or met my lawyer friend or not
that day.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is your lawyer friend?
Mr. SENATOR. I have got—Jim Martin. I don’t remember if I called him.
Once in a while I’d have a beer with him.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t know whether you had a beer with him, I
suppose?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. I just don’t remember the routine of the
day. There was nothing that I did in general.
Mr. HUBERT. You did go to some grocery store to pick up the groceries?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which one that was?
Mr. SENATOR. Sir?
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which grocery store it was?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I think I went to Safeway.
Mr. HUBERT. Safeway?
Mr. SENATOR. Safeway.
Mr. HUBERT. On what street?
Mr. SENATOR. That is on Jefferson.
Mr. HUBERT. Well now, does the recollection of that fact, which must
have been what you did almost immediately before going home—let me put
it this way. Was your trip to Safeway to pick up the groceries the
thing that you did immediately before you went home?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So it would be safe to say, wouldn’t it, that you went to
Safeway around a half hour to an hour before you went home?
Mr. SENATOR. I probably had gone maybe around 6:30 or 7, something like
that.
Mr. HUBERT. Does that help to refresh your memory as to where you had
been just before you went to the grocery?
Mr. SENATOR. Is it possible to forget?
Mr. HUBERT. Why yes, of course, it is.
Mr. SENATOR. Mind you this is 5 months.
Mr. HUBERT. But it is my duty to explore the possibilities.
Mr. SENATOR. I know that. If I could think and help you out I would be
happy to, if I knew. I just can’t place, place to place, where I have
been. I may have been out having a beer or I may have been out chewing
the fat with some friend of mine. I just don’t remember what I was
doing that day.
Mr. HUBERT. It may be that if you think about it a bit more you can
help us a little later on.
Mr. SENATOR. I could if I wanted to, I could have made up a fictitious
story to you and say that I sat in the bar for 3 hours or I was out
with some girl or something like that. He is writing all this down. But
I am telling you the truth.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t want you to tell us something that is fictitious.
If it is a fact that you do not remember, then that is the fact and
that is all we want to know. I think that sometimes one’s memory is
refreshed, as it were, by events. If you can’t remember it now, we
will come back to it a little later and see if you can recollect what
happened in this period of about 6 hours on that Saturday afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, unless you want to pursue this further, let me
ask him a question.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that you might have visited with Jim Martin.
Is this someone that you see regularly?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Jim is an attorney down in Dallas, a very good friend
of mine, who on occasions I will have a beer with. Now, possibly I may
have had it and I just don’t remember. I go to see him often, or I meet
him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Jim single?
Mr. SENATOR. Pardon me?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is he a married man?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he is a married man. He is the one who also was on
the Ruby case for a while.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are his offices located?
Mr. SENATOR. On Main Street. As a matter of fact he just moved
recently. He was on Main Street, and he is still on Main Street, but
the lower part of town in what they call the Lawyers’ Building.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you accustomed to visiting at his home?
Mr. SENATOR. I go to his home once in a while, yes. I have eaten dinner
at his home or I have went up there and cooked for him once in a while.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you known Mr. Martin?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say roughly around 2 or 3 years I guess, something
like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to meet him?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I met him through a friend of mine one day, if
I remember right. I think we were having a cocktail one day in the
Burgundy Room. I think this is how I met him. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Has he represented you in any legal matters?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is he a friend of Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. He knows Jack. I believe all the lawyers in Dallas know
Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if you visited in the area where the
President was shot, on Saturday?
Mr. SENATOR. What?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if you visited in the area where the
President was shot?
Mr. SENATOR. Was I down there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No. I drove by. I mean I didn’t stop. I drove by there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any errands or chores or anything that you
customarily do on Saturday?
Mr. SENATOR. No, nothing in particular, no. I will tell you Saturday I
just don’t like to work. I just don’t like to do anything particular,
you know. Of course, I would say that, of course, Saturday is a wash
day. It is not that I wash every Saturday, you know, or launderette
day. I do my own.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you do Jack’s also?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Jack doesn’t even do his own. He sends them out, but I
do my own.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you do your laundry?
Mr. SENATOR. Downstairs in the apartment. There is a couple of washers,
two or three washers, and a couple dryers right in the apartment. It is
like these machines similar to the store like.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Jack use those? Did Jack use those?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have some particular place he sent his laundry?
Mr. SENATOR. He takes it out and has somebody do it for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where that was?
Mr. SENATOR. I was there one time with him when he was picking up
his laundry. If I am not mistaken, I think it was on the McKinney or
Fitzhugh, Fitzhugh or McKinney. I think it was somewhere up in that
neighborhood. But Jack, he takes his laundry and sends it to this
place. He takes it over. But instead of him doing it, he has a girl do
it for him, and they straighten it out for him when it dries up and all
that there. Then he will come back and pick it up. If he don’t pick it
up one day he will pick it up the next.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He takes it over to this laundry?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The girl does it for him at the laundry?
Mr. SENATOR. She does it with the soap and powder and all that. They
have girls over there, a couple colored girls.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This would ordinarily be a self-service laundromat?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But there are people there so that if you don’t want to
serve yourself they will do it for you?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is the nature of this place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. His brother Sam, wasn’t he in the laundry business?
Mr. SENATOR. Sam fixes those machines. I think Sam was employed by
somebody. I don’t know who he was employed by, but he fixes these
washers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But he doesn’t have washaterias?
Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge; no. I think he is an employee.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This area that you are describing, is that in the general
Oak Cliff area that you people lived in?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no. This is in town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Downtown?
Mr. SENATOR. Not downtown but you have to go through downtown to go
uptown.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What section would you call this section?
Mr. SENATOR. That area would be I would say sort of north—northwest
part of town I think.
Mr. HUBERT. While you are on the laundry subject, wasn’t there some
equipment in the basement of the building you were in?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I said I did mine but he don’t do his.
Mr. HUBERT. When you came home, as I understand it, it was about
7:30, and you fixed a meal for yourself. Before I pass for the moment
from this period on Saturday afternoon, let me ask you this. You were
interviewed I think by the FBI and by Elmer Moore of the Secret Service
very shortly after these events, by the FBI, I believe, on Sunday the
24th?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. No; first the police had me, the local had me.
Mr. HUBERT. The local police?
Mr. SENATOR. Then from the local they put me into the FBI.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they question you at that time as to your activities
during this period of 6 hours on Saturday afternoon between roughly 12
and 6 or 12:30 and 6:30?
Mr. SENATOR. No; they questioned me, I believe they questioned me from
Friday.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell them at that time that you had no recollection
of what you had done during this 6-hour period?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember what I told them. I don’t know if I was
asked that, if I can remember right. I believe the questions they asked
me, if I remember right, is when was the next time I saw Jack that
day, if I remember right, that when I left, what time did I leave that
Saturday, and I believe when was the next time I saw him, if I am not
mistaken, if that is the way it ran.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you give the police a written statement?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You signed a written statement for the police?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they made me sign a written statement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what time it was that the police
questioned you on Sunday?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I’ll tell you why I don’t remember. When they grabbed
me, they took me and shoved me into some little room all by myself, and
I don’t wear a watch because I am allergic to watchbands. I can’t wear
a watch. And I don’t know how long I was in this little room.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that in the evening or the afternoon on Sunday?
Mr. SENATOR. That was the afternoon.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And had you talked with Jack Ruby up to that time, between
the time of the shooting and the time that you were questioned by the
police?
Mr. SENATOR. The last time that I saw Jack Ruby is when he left Sunday
morning. That is the last time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you didn’t see him again on Sunday?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I saw him when they waltzed me by. When the police got
through with me they waltzed me by to the FBI, that is when I saw him
through a glass.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But never talked to him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; couldn’t get near him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with his sister or with——
Mr. SENATOR. That day?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or with anybody else who had seen Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you were questioned?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I’ll tell you why. When I got out, when I got through
with this whole thing that night, it was already dark outside, and I
for one had never seen the shooting on TV, and I still have never seen
it to this day, the shooting on TV, and I never saw the runs because
they had me there that late. I don’t remember what time I got out that
night, but I assume it was dark. It may have been around 7 o’clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So between the time you left Jack Ruby back at the
apartment on Sunday, and the time that the police first started to
question you later on Sunday afternoon, you didn’t see Jack Ruby in
that interval?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At least to talk to?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Eva Grant?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Tom Howard?
Mr. SENATOR. Tom Howard?
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s take a little recess at this point.
(Short recess.)
Mr. HUBERT. We will convene again after recess, with the same
conditions and same understanding about the oath and so on.
Now I think you said you came back home at 7:30 on Saturday night and
you had bought some groceries and Ruby was not there.
Mr. SENATOR. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. You fixed yourself something to eat, and I believe you said
that you left.
Mr. SENATOR. No; first of all I was thinking that he might show up
while I was——
Mr. HUBERT. You fixed enough I think you said for two people.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he come home before you left?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you leave?
Mr. SENATOR. I left about maybe around 8, 8:30. As I say, I got to——
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any phone calls prior to your leaving?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go?
Mr. SENATOR. From there I went downtown. I think I went to the Burgundy
Room, if I am not mistaken, that night.
Mr. HUBERT. That is in the Adolphus Hotel?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and I met a friend of mine there, and we were feeling
low. I was feeling low.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the name of the friend?
Mr. SENATOR. Bill Downey.
Mr. HUBERT. What is his occupation?
Mr. SENATOR. He is a traveling salesman who sells musical equipment and
all the other stuff that goes with it.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. SENATOR. Let’s see now, and Mike Barclay. He is an attorney.
Mr. HUBERT. The three of you were together?
Mr. SENATOR. Went out.
Mr. HUBERT. The three of you were together you say?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. We went out to a bar and we had a beer or two, and
everybody was low down and got disgusted, and they all wanted to go
home including myself.
Mr. HUBERT. So you all did so?
Mr. SENATOR. So we all went home, and I think I got home about 10:30.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack there then?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Jack was there. He had eaten, and he said he was
going out. Now, where he went I don’t know, but he said he was going
out.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you describe his condition then?
Mr. SENATOR. His condition was in the same thing it was in the past.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it like it was in the morning?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He was in that same kind of condition.
Mr. HUBERT. He was no worse?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, it is hard to say how much worse it was. He didn’t
look good.
Mr. HUBERT. The reason I asked that question is because——
Mr. SENATOR. You know when you say “worse,” I don’t know how to
put words together, you know, in expressions, the expression of an
individual’s face.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me show you what I mean. Perhaps you can help me when I
tell you what I have in mind. You have told us earlier that you thought
that his condition on Saturday morning was worse than it was on Friday
night and early Saturday morning.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think the expression you used, “the thing was getting
at him,” so that you formed the impression that the condition was
worsening, isn’t that correct? Is that a fair statement?
Mr. SENATOR. That is the way it looked; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now I ask you if you will give us a comparison.
Mr. SENATOR. I know what you are talking about, but I don’t know how to
compare these things, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it worsening? Was it getting to him more? Did it seem
to be getting to him more Saturday night as opposed to 12 hours earlier
roughly Saturday morning?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say it was of the same nature or
something like that. It wasn’t good, because for me to try to express,
and I don’t know how to express a facial nature. It is just hard for
me to put in words. If you take the complete facial expression and the
eyes and all that, I am not a connoisseur at just being able to express
these things, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I am just asking you for another comparison because
you had given us a previous one, and I thought that another comparison
between another period, two others periods, would be useful if you
could give it to us, and that is all. I gather from you that your
general impression was that there had not been much change in his
condition over what it was on Saturday morning.
Mr. SENATOR. I will say something in the same nature.
Mr. HUBERT. That it was of the same nature?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what the nature of the conversation was
between you two that night?
Mr. SENATOR. No; because when I walked in, he was just about on his way
out. I asked him if he ate. I told him I bought groceries. He said,
“Well, I ate already.” He ate.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after you arrived did he leave?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, God, within 5 minutes. It was just that short, that
fast, and out he went. Now, I don’t know where his visitation was. I
don’t know if he went to see his sister.
Mr. HUBERT. He didn’t tell you where he was going?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Then or ever?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t tell me at all where he was going.
Mr. HUBERT. He never did tell you later?
Mr. SENATOR. No; and I didn’t ask him.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you don’t know where?
Mr. SENATOR. No; because when I went home, you know, when I got home I
went to bed. I was going to bed.
Mr. HUBERT. And you went to bed about 10:30?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say about half an hour later, maybe around 11.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time he came in?
Mr. SENATOR. No; because I wasn’t awake.
Mr. HUBERT. The next time you saw him?
Mr. SENATOR. Was Sunday morning.
Mr. HUBERT. What time did you awaken on Sunday morning?
Mr. SENATOR. Sunday morning I assume it was somewhere around between 8
or 9, somewheres in that time. Just something in that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any way to fix it at all?
Mr. SENATOR. No; you see, when I was on the witness stand with Mr.
Bill Alexander, now he tried to make me pinpoint it right down to the
minute. It is highly impossible. If you are not watching a clock and
don’t have one, how can you pinpoint these things? How can you really
do it? How is it possible? How can you pinpoint time when you are not
watching it?
Mr. HUBERT. In any case what you are saying, your best estimate is that
it was——
Mr. SENATOR. I have to estimate it. Now, as I say when I estimate it, I
can be 15 minutes, a half hour or maybe an hour off on time.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you told us earlier that when you went to bed as
early as 11 o’clock you usually woke up quite early.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is why I say I probably woke up maybe around 8
or 9 that morning.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Ruby——
Mr. SENATOR. Of course, I read in bed, you know. I read in bed.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Ruby there when you woke up, or not?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he was sleeping.
Mr. HUBERT. When did he waken?
Mr. SENATOR. Ruby must have woke up I assume it probably would have
been maybe—of course, I have to guess again—I would assume somewheres
around between 9 and 9:30.
Mr. HUBERT. Why don’t we put it in terms of how much after you did Ruby
wake up. In other words, no matter what time you awoke, can you tell us
how long after he awakened?
Mr. SENATOR. It could be maybe three-quarters of an hour or an hour. I
am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your first distinct recollection of him that
morning?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, the moment he got up he went to the bathroom, which
is normal for him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him then?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I did. Of course, we turned on the TV. He had the TV
going. He turned it on to see what the latest news was. Then he went to
the bathroom. Of course, then he washed, and he went in and made his
own breakfast. I only had coffee. He made himself a couple of scrambled
eggs and coffee for himself, and he still had this look which didn’t
look good.
Mr. HUBERT. Again I want to ask you, can you give us a comparison
between the look that he had that morning, which you just described, as
opposed to what it was on other occasions in the sense of whether it
was growing worse or not?
Mr. SENATOR. He looked a little worse this day here. But if you ask me
how to break it down, how he looks worse, how can I express it? The
look in his eyes?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, is that one of the things?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is the way it seems.
Mr. HUBERT. The way he talked or what he said?
Mr. SENATOR. The way he talked. He was even mumbling, which I didn’t
understand. And right after breakfast he got dressed. Then after he got
dressed he was pacing the floor from the living room to the bedroom,
from the bedroom to the living room, and his lips were going. What
he was jabbering I don’t know. But he was really pacing. What he was
thinking about——
Mr. HUBERT. That was after he was dressed?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now, what he was thinking about, I don’t know what he
was thinking about. But he did, which I forgot to tell you, he did get
that call from this Little Lynn from Western Union.
Mr. HUBERT. You remember the call?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you answer the phone?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he had already been up.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know it was Little Lynn?
Mr. SENATOR. I could hear him say. I heard him say Lynn, Western Union.
I heard him mention Western Union. I heard about the money and that he
was sending it to Fort Worth. She needed $25 for rent.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you that?
Mr. SENATOR. I heard him mention $25 over the phone.
Mr. HUBERT. How did he mention it, that he would send $25?
Mr. SENATOR. He would send $25 to her by Western Union.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention that it was for rent?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he told me after it was for rent.
Mr. HUBERT. He told you?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t hear Little Lynn ask for it?
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t hear it.
Mr. HUBERT. Of course not.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Therefore he must have told you.
Mr. SENATOR. He said she called, and, of course, I knew it was Lynn
because I knew——
Mr. HUBERT. You knew who she was?
Mr. SENATOR. Sure.
Mr. HUBERT. But after he hung up, he told you that she needed $25 for
rent?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he mention that she had called the night before?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not know that at the time?
Mr. SENATOR. If she did I don’t know. This I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time that call was?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. It could have been anywheres between 9:30, I
am not sure, maybe 10. I am not sure what time it was. See now——
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s get at it this way.
Mr. SENATOR. Now you are placing me from the time I woke up to the time
Jack woke up, but I say with all these things I still have to guess the
times.
Mr. HUBERT. That is why I am going to put it to you this way. The time
of the call is known, and that is why I would like you to relate events
backwards from that time, you see.
Mr. SENATOR. I know that I was off on the time because——
Mr. HUBERT. No; I am not trying to get you off. I am trying to get the
facts, so let’s approach it this way. How long before the Little Lynn
call would you estimate it was that Jack woke up?
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t estimate the time, but I don’t think he was up
too long.
Mr. HUBERT. You say he had gone to the bathroom and that he had cooked
his breakfast and that he had gotten dressed?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he wasn’t dressed at the time Little Lynn called.
Mr. HUBERT. He was not dressed at the time?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he was still in his shorts. I think he was still in
his shorts.
Mr. HUBERT. If you could help us on this it would be valuable for us
to know about how long prior to the Little Lynn call did Jack actually
get up. If you want to break that into segments as to how long it was
before he started breakfast, and so forth, well, do that too. It may be
helpful to you and it would be to us. I can help you if you want along
these lines. Did the Little Lynn call come after he had finished his
breakfast?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I think that call came in before he had breakfast. I
think it did. I think it was before breakfast. I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. He answered the phone as I understand it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When he got up he went to the bathroom?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did the call come while he was in the bathroom?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so.
Mr. HUBERT. After he left the bathroom he went to fix breakfast as I
understand it.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if the call came in before or after he went
to the bathroom. It was one of the two. I don’t know which. As I say, I
would have to twist it.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t want you to twist it or to guess.
Mr. SENATOR. I have to guess. I have got to guess.
Mr. HUBERT. You have got to give your best estimation.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. If I don’t know I can’t answer it because I
have got to guess on this. You put me to guesswork.
Mr. HUBERT. No; we don’t want to have you guess. We want your best
estimation of the passage of time. If you don’t know, we certainly
don’t want you to guess. But you were there and we weren’t. Therefore,
we would like to know if you know. We don’t want you to guess.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I don’t know the times.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me give you another approach to assist you on this. You
said that you might have awakened anywhere from 8 to 9 yourself, is
that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that it was as long as 1 hour after you awoke
that the call came from Little Lynn?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. You know this is very complicated
when you try to make a timepiece out of this. It really is. I mean
especially if you are not watching the time and don’t know the time. It
is just a complicated thing trying to place a time together.
Mr. HUBERT. That is true, but on the other hand when we have a fixed
time, sometimes we can relate events to that time in terms of hours and
half hours and so forth. That is what I am asking you to do now.
Mr. SENATOR. You see when you are relating all three there, in the
relation of all three here from the time I got up to the time Jack got
up to the time he had his breakfast, from the time that Little Lynn
called I would be jamming all these things into maybe a half hour to an
hour in differences, and they would all almost clog together because
I would have to guess at all these, because, mind you, this wasn’t a
great expanse of hours. This is why I say I will be guessing and have
to be wrong. Mind you from the time that I wake up at 8 o’clock in the
morning, supposedly around 8 or maybe it was 8:30 or 9, I have to have
the answers, supposed to have the answers for what time I woke up, what
time Jack got up, Little Lynn in the short span of hours, and it is
hard to break these things down and be accurate.
Mr. HUBERT. We understand that, and the purpose is to find out if it is
possible to know, and if your answer to us is that you can’t tell us,
we don’t want you to guess.
Mr. SENATOR. I can’t tell you. The reason it is hard to tell you,
because I would have to guess at all these and I have no hours. It was
such a short span of hours, I would probably assume this whole thing
would consummate maybe in what, approximately 2 hours, whatever it may
be, maybe 2½ hours, I don’t know. Now, you know you have got to jam
hours in for these three things to fit, and I can’t jam them together
to make them fit.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if we can’t fix sequence of events instead of
trying to fix hours. You got up first.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And Jack got up next.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then another fixed event is the time that he went to the
toilet. That came next, didn’t it? He went to the bathroom?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then he fixed himself some breakfast.
Mr. SENATOR. Now you have asked me if he fixed breakfast first or the
telephone call, I mean her call.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember which came first. Now I am guessing that
the call came first. I am not sure. I can’t relate to be sure right now.
Mr. HUBERT. As to the sequence of those two events, we now know what
your recollection is, and that is that it could have been before or it
could have been after.
Mr. SENATOR. I just don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. But in any event, he certainly dressed after he got the
call, is that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. And after breakfast.
Mr. HUBERT. And after breakfast?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Then after he dressed he paced about some?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, at least we have the sequence of events so far as we
are able to put them together.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. We also know, you see, Mr. Senator, that as to one
sequence, you don’t know. I am not critical of you because you don’t
know, but we weren’t aware that you didn’t know until right now.
Mr. SENATOR. As I say, I mean when you take these four incidents and
try to, you know, try to jam them all into this short span of hours, I
just can’t break it down and be right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now let’s get to this. Was Jack normally a fast dresser or
would you care to estimate whether it took him——
Mr. SENATOR. No; Jack was never a fast dresser or never a fast washer.
He took his time. In other words, if I wanted to compare us, I could
dress five times as fast as he could or shave or anything else that
much quicker than he could.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that normally it took him a half hour to get
dressed and shaved?
Mr. SENATOR. A half hour to get dressed and shaved? I would probably
assume it would take something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. And do you think it took him that long on this morning?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if it took him that long.
Mr. HUBERT. But in any case he did dress and you would think that that
took him a half an hour?
Mr. SENATOR. I would only have to guess. I can’t say.
Mr. HUBERT. Normally it would have?
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t assume the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Normally it would take him a half hour?
Mr. SENATOR. I would so surmise that it would.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did this pacing go on after he got dressed? It
may have been a matter of only a couple of minutes, but if it was more
than that, I think you would know it. I think if it was a half hour you
would know it.
Mr. SENATOR. I would say that he paced back and forth 5 or 10 minutes.
I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Was it at that point that he left?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything upon leaving?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he say?
Mr. SENATOR. He said, “George, I am taking the dog down to the club.”
Mr. HUBERT. Anything else?
Mr. SENATOR. That was it, and out he went.
Mr. HUBERT. He was fully dressed?
Mr. SENATOR. He was fully dressed.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe how he was dressed?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he wore a hat, wore a suit and a shirt and tie.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say when he was coming back?
Mr. SENATOR. No; that is the only words he said when he walked out.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear him speak to Elnora Pitts on Sunday morning
over the telephone?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who Elnora Pitts is?
Mr. SENATOR. It is a colored maid. No; I have heard that incident
before, but I don’t remember this at all. I just don’t remember if he
did or not. I can’t, in other words, I can’t refresh my mind whatsoever
that Elnora called. Now, I could be wrong on this, but my mind is not
fresh for that long.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible that you were in a part of the
house or outside the house maybe?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I wasn’t out.
Mr. HUBERT. You never left the house?
Mr. SENATOR. I was in my shorts all the while, unless I—no, I don’t
even know. Maybe I could have been in the bathroom. I am not even sure.
Mr. HUBERT. But in any case you have no recollection of Elnora calling?
Mr. SENATOR. I do not remember at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it her custom to call when she was coming out there?
Mr. SENATOR. I think he—I don’t know, but I know that he has driven by
to tell her to come up and clean the apartment sometimes or something
of that nature. Now, I know he did that one time, but I don’t know if
it is his custom to have her call or not. Maybe it had been, maybe it
hadn’t been. I don’t know on that.
Mr. HUBERT. I know I am asking you for another estimate, but I would
like to know what your view of it is. That is how long after Karen
Bennett called did Jack leave the house?
Mr. SENATOR. Who? Oh, Little Lynn?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Well, Jack was still in his shorts then when she called.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes?
Mr. SENATOR. This I do remember.
Mr. HUBERT. He had to dress?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But you are not sure whether he had fixed breakfast or not?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know which came first, if she called or he fixed
breakfast first.
Mr. HUBERT. Leaving those aside, all I was asking was whether or not
you could give us an estimate of the time from when Little Lynn called
until he told you “I am leaving and I am going out and take this dog to
the club.” Have you any idea at all? If you don’t, tell us.
Mr. SENATOR. Wait, wait, what time she called?
Mr. HUBERT. No; the time interval between when she called and when he
left.
Mr. SENATOR. I will make a wild guess. I would say it was at least
three quarters, it must have been about three quarters of an hour.
Mr. HUBERT. On what do you base it?
Mr. SENATOR. I am just guessing. I can’t base it on anything. I am only
guessing.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it quite guessing? You knew he had to dress.
Mr. SENATOR. Sure you have got to dress.
Mr. HUBERT. So that took up some time.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; had to wash.
Mr. HUBERT. And you also say that he paced up and down for some little
interval of time.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So when you characterize it as a wild guess——
Mr. SENATOR. I have got to guess.
Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if it is a guess so much as it is a putting
together of these little segments of time and estimating what each
would take.
Mr. SENATOR. I am saying I would have to guess. I would have to guess
all this.
Mr. HUBERT. When you said three quarters of an hour, wasn’t it really
the result of your thinking of how much time would be occupied to do
these little segments of activity such as dressing and pacing up and
down and so forth, and you added them up and came to about three
quarters of an hour; wasn’t that your mental processes rather than a
wild guess?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no, no. You asked me a question and I said I would
have to guess it. You know it is really amazing to put hours together.
Mind you, 5 months have elapsed already, and to try to put these hours
together you have got to fluctuate. How can you be sure?
Mr. HUBERT. That is true, but——
Mr. SENATOR. You have got to fluctuate. It is strictly all guess work.
Mr. HUBERT. That is true, but your attention was directed specifically
to these time lapses, not 5 months ago, but on that very day.
Mr. SENATOR. They were all guess work, they were all supposedly. I had
to give guess works.
Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying now is that the times that you
estimated then were guess works even on that very day as to the times
on that very day? You were examined, weren’t you?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. About 3, 4, or 5 o’clock in the evening?
Mr. SENATOR. And I have always said I would have to guess the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Even as to that day you would have to guess the time?
Mr. SENATOR. That Sunday?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I always have to guess.
Mr. HUBERT. On Sunday you said you had to guess the time as to the
earlier part of the day?
Mr. SENATOR. I had to guess the time Saturday, I had to guess the time
Sunday when he woke me up. I was only guessing it was around 3 o’clock
in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. You see the reason why I am bringing that to your attention
is that you stated a moment ago that it is difficult for you to recall
these things after 5 months. But I was inviting your attention to the
fact that your memory had been directed to these intervals of time for
the first time not today, but on that very day, and your answer to me
is that even on that day you were guessing as to the intervals of the
earlier part of the day; is that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. Of times?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Of times.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a fair statement?
Mr. SENATOR. If a man doesn’t see a clock, or doesn’t see a watch, what
else can he do? What else can you go by?
Mr. HUBERT. All I am saying is that even on the 24th when the police
and the FBI asked you about these segments of time on that same day,
your statement to us is that even then you were largely guessing?
Mr. SENATOR. I would have to guess the approximate times. If you can
tell me if you don’t see a clock or a watch, how do you tell?
Mr. HUBERT. You might be able to tell by remembering what TV program
was going on at the time. Do you, at any particular time?
Mr. SENATOR. At that time I believe it was something about the late
President, but I don’t just recall what it was, but I believe it was——
Mr. HUBERT. Practically everything that day was. You don’t remember any
specific part?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t; no. I don’t remember any specific part.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack look at it, too? I think you said he did. Did he
make a particular comment as to a particular part then being shown?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was the last time you saw Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me get this straight. Were you awake, did you wake up
on Sunday morning before Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Sunday morning? Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have an actual recollection of that, or are you
stating this because it was almost always your practice that you did
wake up before Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. I always—I would say 95 percent of the time I was up
before him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But on this day do you have any recollection?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know. He was asleep because when I got up he was
still in bed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got up, as I understand; you made some breakfast
for yourself?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You did not?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I had coffee. I made coffee.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Coffee?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In this period between the time you got up and the time
that Jack left the apartment, did you remain in the apartment the
entire period?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I was still in my shorts when he left the apartment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you visited by anybody?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That day?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or that morning?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know which are the neighbors in that apartment? Let
me start over again? You lived at that South Ewing address on that very
same floor right next to Jack for 11 months, approximately?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before this Sunday we are talking about. Now, did you know
any of the other people who lived in the apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. Just to say hello, but that is about as far as it went.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Sidney Evans?
Mr. SENATOR. Sidney Evans?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. If I did, I don’t know them by name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about a man named Malcolm Slaughter?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They work for the Red Ball Freight Company or Motor
Express, truck drivers apparently.
Mr. SENATOR. Did they live there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. They were supposed to; yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. If I did, I don’t know them by name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know the people who lived across the hall from you?
Mr. SENATOR. When you say across the hall, it was a =U=. That was just
by the U shape.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A balcony sort of a situation?
Mr. SENATOR. A balcony, but it was a =U=. In other words, when I walked
out of my door, if I kept walking and went over the bannister I would
hit the ground. There was nobody facing me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about on either side?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack was on one side. Then there were some girls on the
other side. The next apartment over there were three girls, something
like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That =U= that you are talking about, is it sort of a
stairwell, is that it? The =U= is on one floor of the stairwell?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And there were three suites on the landing that you people
were on? There was the old suite that you occupied, Jack’s suite which
you were living in on the 24th, and the suite occupied by some girls?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; then it went down further. That wasn’t the end of
the strip.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There was a hallway, wasn’t there?
Mr. SENATOR. No; there was a balcony.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A balcony?
Mr. SENATOR. A railing—I mean you are outdoors. There is nothing
concealed. It was just a railing and you are looking outdoors.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you opened out onto this balcony?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Along this balcony, how many other suites were there along
that balcony?
Mr. SENATOR. Running our way, you have got to transplant in your
mind—in other words, say that I am facing my door right now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. And the balcony goes =U=-shaped like this. Do you follow
me? In other words, this is all space out here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Everything in front of you is space?
Mr. SENATOR. Space. Now right past mine, if you turn to the right of
mine, then you walk down another balcony. See, there are balconies on
this side plus balconies this way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now along this same level that you were on, and
following the whole set of balconies around on the same level, how many
different——
Mr. SENATOR. The entire level.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. How many different?
Mr. SENATOR. This is another guesswork. I would say, I would sort of
estimate around a dozen places, a dozen apartments.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now these dozen different apartments, was there a single
stairway that led up to that level, or was there more than one stairway?
Mr. SENATOR. No; there was two stairways. There was one from the front,
there was one level that come up South Ewing. In other words, you drive
around through the back where you park your cars and come up this way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Another stairway?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on this level how many of those dozen suites there
perhaps—how many of those people did you know?
Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t know any. I never had a conversation with any of
them. Now I said hello to the girls next door, but I never talked to
them, never had a conversation with them. Of course, they were young
girls, not of my category. And the people on the sides, I didn’t know
any of them. In other words, anybody who walked in, you know, you would
say hello whether you knew them or not. But there wasn’t a conversation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, I want to carry this on a little bit from what
happened after Jack left the apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. I promised him that we would stop at 5 because he expressed
the fact that he was somewhat fatigued. He has been up since 2:30. I
think rather than get into another segment we might adjourn for the
day. You were turning to another subject?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I was going to take him up to the time when he left the
apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. That I think would be another subject.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, the interval between when Jack left and——
Mr. HUBERT. We have it now to the point where Jack has left the
apartment, and I think that is a good stopping point. It is a quarter
past 5 and I had promised we would stop at 5.
Mr. SENATOR. I am not mad at you.
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR RESUMED
The testimony of George Senator was taken at 8:35 a.m., on April 22,
1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W.
Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s
Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Senator, you will understand that this is a
continuation of the deposition which was begun yesterday, and that
Mr. Griffin and I, who are examining you, are doing so under the same
authority and under the same conditions as were indicated to you at
the beginning of the deposition yesterday. Likewise, I take it that
you understand, unless I hear to the contrary that you are still under
the same oath which you took at the commencement of the testimony on
yesterday; is that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the end of the session on yesterday we reached the
point where on Sunday, November 24, you had left your apartment or you
were leaving your apartment, as I recall it. Your testimony was that
Mr. Ruby had already left. I think you fixed, but just for the purpose
of continuity at the moment, would you now try to fix the approximate
time at which he left?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean when I left?
Mr. HUBERT. No; when he left.
Mr. SENATOR. To me, I thought it was somewheres between 10:15 and
10:30. Of course, I found out hereafter in the courtroom that I was
wrong, but this at that time was the approximate figure that I had that
he left.
Mr. HUBERT. You told us yesterday that whatever time it was, your
thought was that it was approximately three-quarters of an hour after
he received the call from Little Lynn?
Mr. SENATOR. No. At the time he left—in my courtroom statement there I
fixed the time at approximately 10:15 or 10:30. That is where I thought
he had left around that time.
Mr. HUBERT. I ask you now to fix it not in point of clock time but in
point of how many hours or minutes it was, or parts of hours it was,
after the long distance call from Little Lynn in which you understood
that she asked for $25.
Mr. SENATOR. I would have to say it would probably be approximately
somewhere, I imagine somewhere between three-quarters to an hour. Now
this is about as close as I can think of it.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you base that upon two considerations, at least
that you stated to us yesterday. That he was not yet dressed.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. When Little Lynn called?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And that he got dressed and cleaned up, washed up?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then spent some short, relatively short period of time
pacing around, as you said?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Before leaving. And that you estimated yesterday I think it
was about three-quarters of an hour.
Mr. SENATOR. Three-quarters of an hour. I mean this is just an
estimation.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when he left he told you he was taking the dog Sheba
down to the club?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he made no other comment?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say what time he was coming back?
Mr. SENATOR. No; there was no mention of anything at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what did you do next? How long did you stay in the
apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. After he left I’m still sitting around in my shorts yet.
I’m not dressed or not washed or anything outside of having a cup of
coffee. I had coffee.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have TV on?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I’ll tell you, after he left I was reading the Sunday
paper.
Mr. HUBERT. And you cut off the TV?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I didn’t have the TV going. I was just reading. I
read the paper, and from there I washed, shaved, got dressed, and took
a ride downtown, and as I say, this place, the Eatwell——
Mr. HUBERT. How long after Ruby left did you leave?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say it was about three-quarters of an hour, I
guess, something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Then you went directly to the Eatwell?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You used your Volkswagen, I think you said?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you park, do you remember?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I parked right by the Eatwell.
Mr. HUBERT. There is a parking lot there?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it is right on the street. You know Sunday there is no
difficulty.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, then take it from there. Tell us what happened.
Mr. SENATOR. So I went in there. I sat down there. Now, this is the
place that I go every morning, you know, rather Sunday or Monday
because I don’t like to sit indoors. So I went there and had a cup of
coffee. Then the first thing—then I had another cup of coffee. Now, on
my second cup of coffee I heard the girl, the waitress—now where she
got her information from I don’t know. It had to be either telephone or
radio, I don’t know which. Maybe they had the radio on.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice any kind of a radio of any type in the
restaurant?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they usually have any?
Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, what happened?
Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge. The first time she said she heard
that somebody shot Oswald.
Mr. HUBERT. Was she speaking to you?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no, it was loud; but it happened to be she was near me.
Mr. HUBERT. There were other people in the place?
Mr. SENATOR. Not a lot. There were others you know, the usual morning
Sunday business in the restaurant is sort of minute. So what I did when
I heard that, I called up the lawyer. I was going to give him the news.
I figured he would probably be sitting home, you know, Jim Martin, who
happens to be a friend of mine. But when I called him. I spoke to his
daughter and she told me her dad and mother were in church. Dad would
be home in half an hour. I said all right, maybe I’ll call him back.
A short while later, the same girl, the same waitress hollered out that
the man—she wasn’t pronouncing the name right, the Carousel Club, but
I sort of got the drift of the name and she hollered Jack Ruby killed
Oswald. This is what she come up with later.
Mr. HUBERT. How much later?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say about 5 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. But it was after you had called Martin?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; after I called Martin.
Mr. HUBERT. You called Martin right away?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I was going to tell him that. I didn’t think he would
be—of course, I didn’t know he was going to church or anything.
Mr. HUBERT. He is a close friend of yours?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He is an attorney there; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, then?
Mr. SENATOR. Then when I heard that again, then I went up to see him.
Of course, I froze in that chair there. I said my God, I didn’t know
what in the world to think. Then I went up there and I no sooner got
there, he had just got there, I don’t know, I think a moment or two
before me. His wife and daughter had just come out of church.
Mr. HUBERT. You went to his home, you mean?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I went to his house. I told Jim and he said, “I heard
already. I saw it on TV.”
Mr. HUBERT. He was already at his house, you said?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he was home already.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after your phone call to him do you suppose you
got to his house?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he lived quite a ways. I would probably say it was
about a 20-minute ride.
Mr. HUBERT. You left the Eatwell just as soon as the girl announced
that the man who had shot Oswald was Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. I finished my coffee. I had about a half a cup left,
something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not attempt to call Martin again?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t call him. I just went direct. I figured if he
wasn’t home I’d wait for him.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your reason for wanting to see Martin?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, after all, this was my roommate. No particular
reason. I happened to know he was a lawyer.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to him as a lawyer or as a friend?
Mr. SENATOR. As a friend, as a friend. So I went up there and said,
“Jim, what in the world are we going to do?”
Mr. HUBERT. I take it from what you said a moment ago, “After all, he
was my roommate”, that you felt some concern for yourself.
Mr. SENATOR. I’ll tell you how I felt. I knew after this had happened,
I thought it was best that I volunteered than somebody come after me.
Mr. HUBERT. You thought that somebody would be coming after you?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, eventually they would have to. Eventually somebody
would have to be coming after me. After all, I was his roommate.
Mr. HUBERT. I assume you were going to see Martin really to seek his
advice as a lawyer as well as a friend?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; what to do. What should I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that true of the phone call as well?
Mr. SENATOR. Sir?
Mr. HUBERT. Was that motivation true of the phone call to Martin as
well?
Mr. SENATOR. No. The first call, I was just going to tell him that I
heard that Oswald was shot, which the girl told me. But on the second
time—I didn’t——
Mr. HUBERT. You realized your position at that time as being his
roommate and that gave you concern because you thought that the police
might be picking you up?
Mr. SENATOR. Sure.
Mr. HUBERT. And you thought you had better have the advice of a lawyer?
Mr. SENATOR. To ask him what to do. Should I go down there or what?
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do in fact?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, we went down there. We went down there and, of
course, we had a tough time getting in. When we got down the place was
just jammed.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you at Martin’s house, speaking to him?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say maybe 5 minutes, maybe 10 minutes something
like that.
Mr. HUBERT. And did you in effect ask him what you should do?
Mr. SENATOR. I asked him what I should do and I thought it would be
best to go down. He thought so, too.
Mr. HUBERT. It was your suggestion that it would be best to go down, or
his.
Mr. SENATOR. I think it was a combination of both.
Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, within about 5 minutes the decision had
been made?
Mr. SENATOR. 5 or 10, something like that. I’m not sure of the exact
time.
Mr. HUBERT. The decision had been made to go down to the police
department. Now, what was the purpose of going down there?
Mr. SENATOR. I went down there, I thought it would be best if I go down
there than to be picked up, because after all, I’m his roommate and I
know they are going to eventually pick me up, because I was living with
him.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the idea was that you were going to go down
there and say, “Now look, I’m George Senator. I was a roommate of Jack
Ruby’s and do you have anything to ask of me?” That was it?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say it was in the nature of that; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Incidentally, a moment ago you said that you were sleeping
with Jack Ruby, and in some circles sleeping with someone is——
Mr. SENATOR. I said I was what?
Mr. HUBERT. You were sleeping with Jack Ruby.
Mr. SENATOR. I was sleeping with him?
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that.
Mr. SENATOR. I never said that, never.
Mr. HUBERT. I misunderstood you then.
Mr. SENATOR. You sure did.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not mean——
Mr. SENATOR. You sure did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did I hear that right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I did not catch it.
Mr. SENATOR. You sure did.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, if I did hear that I was wrong about that?
Mr. SENATOR. You definitely were wrong. You definitely were wrong. I
don’t even remember this incident being said.
Mr. HUBERT. That is all right. I just wanted to get it clear, because
some people might misunderstand the phrase, and I would not want that
to be misunderstood if it were not true.
Mr. SENATOR. It definitely isn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. So when you got there, what happened?
Mr. SENATOR. The place was mobbed, and, of course, I believe there were
a couple of police attendants by the elevator as we got off.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go, in fact?
Mr. SENATOR. Actually, I didn’t know where to go. We went upstairs.
Mr. HUBERT. What entrance, do you remember?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I guess the front entrance, we went up.
Mr. HUBERT. You went to the Chief of Police office, or what office?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what office I was at.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whom you reported to or whom you were with?
Mr. SENATOR. First we were mobbed. I told these people, these two
policemen, whoever they were I don’t know, I told them who I was.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were they stationed?
Mr. SENATOR. They were right by the elevator as you got off.
Mr. HUBERT. As you got off on one of the upper floors?
Mr. SENATOR. One of the floors. I don’t remember what floor it was on.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were not mobbed, as you put it, or you
did not speak to anybody as you came into the building?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. On the ground floor?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. But as you got off, whatever floor it was, two policemen
stopped you; is that the idea?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I was with Jim Martin.
Mr. HUBERT. And when they stopped you, they asked your name I suppose?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you told them?
Mr. SENATOR. Told them who I was. And then, you know, the place was
mobbed and there was a bunch, whoever these people were, reporters or
whatever, there were some of them there. They happened to overhear it,
and they mobbed me. They mobbed me.
Then eventually two great big policemen came over and one grabbed me on
one side of the arm, you know, they looked like giants to me, and one
on the other side and they took me into this room. Remember I told you
they put me into a little sort of solitary room.
Mr. HUBERT. That is on the same floor?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. And I don’t remember how long. I mean I had no way
of knowing time that I was in there in this room there waiting for
somebody who was going to—they said to wait there, I don’t know. They
kept me in this room. Then somebody finally approached me. They wanted
a statement.
Mr. HUBERT. You got there, I suppose, about 20 or 30 minutes after
leaving Martin’s house?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say something like that, between 20 and 30 minutes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were, almost immediately after getting off on one
of the upper floors of the building, mobbed by the press group and
taken by these two policemen?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And put into a room on the same floor?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then was Mr. Martin with you?
Mr. SENATOR. He was with me, but he never, you know, when they took me
to this room they wouldn’t let him in.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask to go in or to remain with you?
Mr. SENATOR. He says “I’m his lawyer”; he was my lawyer. But we still
were separated.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask that he be allowed to remain with you?
Mr. SENATOR. He wanted to get in.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you remember whether he actually asked to get in with
you?
Mr. SENATOR. It seemed like he wanted to get in. I mean I don’t
remember the exact words that he said, because they wouldn’t let him
in, so apparently he was trying to get in too.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether you were placed under arrest?
Mr. SENATOR. No, never placed under arrest.
Mr. HUBERT. When you were escorted to this room and sat down, was the
door locked?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you told to remain there?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there any guards on the door?
Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge. I don’t think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you handcuffed?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say you don’t know how long you remained there?
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t tell. This was a little tiny room. It looked
like where they keep some inventory books—not books, probably paper
goods or something like that. It was a very small room.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you hear what was going on outside the room?
Mr. SENATOR. No, couldn’t hear a thing.
Mr. HUBERT. Did the room have any windows in it?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the light on?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. It was very small. It was a very small room. As I
say, it must be a room like they keep paper goods, things of that
nature, or something like that in there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did the police search you or frisk you?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. They did not take anything away from you?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I wasn’t under arrest at all.
Mr. HUBERT. And what was the next thing that happened?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, finally, I don’t remember this man’s name, you
may have a note of it, I assume he was a detective. He was in plain
clothes. He questioned me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he question you in that same room, or take you outside?
Mr. SENATOR. No, he questioned me in that room.
Mr. HUBERT. Just one man?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember his name?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he connected with the Federal Government or the State
government?
Mr. SENATOR. I assumed he was local.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you found out since who he was?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I didn’t. I think he must have been a detective of
some nature. I mean I don’t know what his classification was, because
all I know is, he was in plain clothes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of his inquiry?
Mr. SENATOR. It was, you know, what happened from the time of the
shooting up until the present time. That was the inquiry.
Mr. HUBERT. The time of the President’s shooting?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, from the President to——
Mr. HUBERT. Did he more or less ask you to go over and to account for
your time during that period?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean where I was?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Am I right then in saying that his inquiry was to ask you
what you had been doing since the President had been shot and what Ruby
had been doing too, I suppose?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Both of you?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He asked you concerning the events in your life during the
afternoon of Friday, November 22?
Mr. SENATOR. I believe that is how it started.
Mr. HUBERT. And on the night of the 22d and the early morning of the
23d?
Mr. SENATOR. There is only one thing that slipped my mind to tell him,
and that was the paper issue, the newspaper issue and the billboard,
“Impeach Earl Warren”. That was the only thing I forgot to tell him
that slipped my mind.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him that you had gotten up, that Jack had
wakened you early in the morning and had asked you to go out with him?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he questioned me on that or not. I don’t
remember if he did or not on that. I don’t remember if he did on that.
Mr. HUBERT. But if he did——
Mr. SENATOR. But I had been in a pretty shaky mood that day, most
naturally nervous.
Mr. HUBERT. But your point is that if he did ask you about whether you
had gone out with Ruby in the early hours of the morning, you did not
tell him about the concern of Ruby over the Bernard Weissman ad, nor
did you tell him about taking the pictures of the Earl Warren poster?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I didn’t tell him that.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what was your reason for not?
Mr. SENATOR. No particular reason.
As a matter of fact, I’m sorry that I—I should have told him. If I
thought about it I should have told him that because I think this was a
benefactor for Jack Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say that the reason why you did not mention these
two episodes was forgetfulness?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
I was a pretty shaken boy. I’m not used to something like this. This is
something that will shake you up.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it that you were shaken up and thought it best not to
mention anything about it, or that you actually forgot?
Mr. SENATOR. Just forgot.
Mr. HUBERT. And I assume that that officer then carried you through the
events of Saturday morning after you got up and Saturday afternoon and
Saturday night and Sunday morning, is that not so?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And at that time did you tell him what you had done on
Saturday afternoon?
Mr. SENATOR. No, because I didn’t—I don’t think I did because I don’t
know if I was questioned on that. As a matter of fact, to the best of
my knowledge I don’t think I was questioned at any time what I did on
Saturday afternoon, to the best of my knowledge that I can think of.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean they questioned you about what you did on Friday
night and Saturday morning?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And Sunday morning, but they omitted Saturday afternoon?
Mr. SENATOR. The best that I can recollect, it was more important of
the events of when I had seen Jack, and the times that he got home and
when I got home.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him concerning all of those matters
approximately as you have told us to date?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean from the events of Saturday?
Mr. HUBERT. Friday, Saturday and Sunday up to the point we have reached
in this deposition.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, but you are more thorough than they are.
Mr. HUBERT. How long do you suppose that interview with the police
officer lasted?
Mr. SENATOR. I have no idea.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened next?
Mr. SENATOR. From there he took me to the FBI on the same floor in
another room, and his story was about the same.
Of course, if I remember right, I think he goes back like you started,
you know, my name——
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the FBI examination of you?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember his name. Yes, the FBI man. And if I
recall right, I think he asked me, you know, my name, how old I was,
you know, like you started off.
Mr. HUBERT. He went into details as it were?
Mr. SENATOR. Pardon me?
Mr. HUBERT. He went into more detail?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; because the details—in other words, he started
from where I came from, my name and how old I was and things of that
nature, like you did.
Mr. HUBERT. And I think you said that his examination was thorough as
it were.
Mr. SENATOR. Well, there was more to it.
Mr. HUBERT. In what way? Did he ask you for more details?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he went into my personal life, you know, like you
started off.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that his examination of you was along the
same lines as mine has been?
Mr. SENATOR. No; because—well, in certain parts I would say, but I
think yours are more meticulous—is that the proper word—than his. In
other words, yours are more thorough.
Mr. HUBERT. But he asked you to account for your time?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you told him about going out in the morning with Jack,
having been awakened by Jack and going out, and so forth?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I forgot that. In other words, when they shoved me
from one to the other, it was the same way.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you do not have any recollection of having told
the FBI that Jack had awakened you in the morning and that you had gone
out with him?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember if I did or not. I may have. I don’t
remember if I did or not, now, on that.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any distinct recollections as to whether or not
you mentioned the Earl Warren poster or the concern of Ruby about the
Bernard Weissman advertisement?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember if I did or not. Maybe I did, maybe I
didn’t. I don’t remember that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask you about accounting for your time on Saturday
afternoon?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember that, either.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did this interrogation by the FBI man take?
Mr. SENATOR. Of course, it’s guesswork again. I would say maybe it took
a couple hours.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it one man or more?
Mr. SENATOR. One. I would say now——
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell either the State officer who interrogated you
or the FBI man who interrogated you that you had a lawyer and that his
name was Martin?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I did.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not ask that your lawyer be present?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. What occurred then after the interview with the FBI man was
over? What happened?
Mr. SENATOR. Then they let me go. They released me.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did that, in fact, the FBI man or a State officer?
Mr. SENATOR. The FBI man. If I remember right, I think the FBI man
said, “That is all there is.” That is all there was of the interview.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were permitted to leave?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you left?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say it was between 6 and 7 at night because I know
when I got outside again it was dark.
Mr. HUBERT. Was anybody waiting for you?
Mr. SENATOR. No; there was nobody waiting for me. Somebody gave me a
message, or handed me a message, I don’t remember who it was, that Jim
Martin would meet me, the fellow who brought me down, the attorney who
brought me down.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that a police officer?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; you mean who handed me the message?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a written message? I asked that because you said you
did not remember who handed you——
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember who it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Which would indicate it was written, you see?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember who it was. All he said, he would meet me
there. In other words, he was going to meet me across the street from
the——
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a verbal message?
Mr. SENATOR. I think it was a written message. I don’t remember who
gave it to me.
Mr. HUBERT. You just put it in your pocket or something?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I read it.
Mr. HUBERT. You read it and threw it away?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I knew I would meet him. So I met him. As a matter
of fact, I was with three attorneys when we met, either two or three
attorneys.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Griffin, do you want to ask any questions on this
segment that I have covered this morning up to this point?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I want to go back a little bit. When Jack Ruby left
the house Sunday morning, you were dressed, were you not?
Mr. SENATOR. I?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were not dressed?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I was in my underwear.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got down to the Eatwell Restaurant, can you tell
us which of the waitresses, management people, were on duty?
Mr. SENATOR. Which of the waitresses?
Mr. GRIFFIN. And management people were on duty.
Mr. SENATOR. I would say there were probably two or—no; not glancing
around or anything of that nature, I would probably say there were 2 or
3 waitresses.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You eat there regularly?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I stop there every day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you know these waitresses?
Mir. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So what I am asking you is to tell us which of the
waitresses were on duty.
Mr. SENATOR. I could recollect the one who said it when I heard her say
it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which one was that?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know her name. I know her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you not know the names of any of the people who work in
there?
Mr. SENATOR. This girl here, I mean I know them all, but I don’t know
them by name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know any of them by name?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know any of them by name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the names of the owners?
Mr. SENATOR. I know the owner. I know his first name. I don’t know his
last name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is that?
Mr. SENATOR. His first name is Jim. There is a father and son. Jim is
the father and Charles is the son.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old would you say they are?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say Charles must be—of course, they
weren’t there that day. Charles I would probably say is in—could be
in I guess his late thirties, I’m not sure, and the father I would
probably say is maybe in his late sixties or early seventies.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you describe the waitress that was on duty?
Mr. SENATOR. She was a woman about, I would probably say in her late
forties or maybe early fifties, dark haired if I remember rightly, and
I believe brown eyes. I don’t know how to describe her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know a waitress there by the name of Helen?
Mr. SENATOR. Helen? A little short girl.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know what she looks like.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know one. The other is a little short girl I think
by the name of Helen. I think it is Helen. See, now once in a while
they wear badges but I can’t remember one from the other, outside of
their faces. I always say hello to them. On the other hand, I never
take that much notice of who’s who.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, the waitress who was on duty knew that you were
Jack Ruby’s roommate, did she not?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t think she did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The people at the Eatwell knew——
Mr. SENATOR. Some know me but I don’t think this one knew me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They know Jack as well as they know you, don’t they?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know if they know him. See, Jack and I never
went in there, I mean together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack eats there regularly?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or ate there regularly, did he not?
Mr. SENATOR. No; Jack don’t eat there because he don’t like their type
cooking. No; Jack don’t eat there. Now I go there every day. I go
there every day, I go there every morning. I have coffee, I would say,
probably 7 days a week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any recognition by anyone at the Eatwell while
you were in there?
Mr. SENATOR. There was very few people in there that morning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But of the people who were there, did any of them appear
to recognize that you were connected with Jack Ruby when they learned
over the television set that Jack Ruby had——
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say to the best of my knowledge, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that would indicate that nobody said anything to you
about it. You did not have anything to——
Mr. SENATOR. No, they didn’t say a word to me about it. Now, if they
did or not, as I say, to the best of my knowledge, no. Now I can’t
quote myself, if I am that correct or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am curious as to any other people that you thought of
contacting after you heard that Jack had shot——
Mr. SENATOR. No; that was it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, you——
Mr. SENATOR. I called up Jim because I happened to know Jim and Jim was
an attorney.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You thought about calling Jim before you knew who it was
that had shot Lee Oswald?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know at the time that you tried to call Martin
that it was somebody associated with the Carousel Club that had done it?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean Jack Ruby, my roommate?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Now, you say it was after you called Martin that you
learned that it was Jack Ruby who had shot Oswald, but you said as I
understand it somewhere between the time you learned Oswald was shot
and you learned Ruby had done it, you heard something about it being
someone from the Carousel Club.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You did not?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that at the time you called Mr. Martin, you had no idea
who shot——
Mr. SENATOR. I called him because it was local news. That is why I
called Jim.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think of calling anybody else?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think of trying to get ahold of Jack Ruby to tell
him about it?
Mr. SENATOR. No; because Jack left home shortly before that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some idea where he was?
Mr. SENATOR. No; none whatsoever.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you walked into the police station, I understand
you to say that you were mobbed by members of the press? Did you say
anything to those members of the press?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, they ganged me so and everybody was throwing
questions at me, and I don’t even remember the things that I answered
because they asked me so many things and so many people were mobbing me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you were answering their questions?
Mr. SENATOR. I was answering some of them, whatever they were asking me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say it was that you answered questions?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. Maybe about 5 minutes I guess before two
policemen nabbed me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any of the questions they asked?
Mr. SENATOR. No; God, they was throwing them left and right. I couldn’t
keep up with them. I just couldn’t keep up with them, what they were
talking about. I was just in circles, you know. Now how can I answer
these questions there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see reports in the newspaper the next day or that
evening about what you had said down at the police station?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t. I didn’t see no papers that evening. As a
matter of fact, I never even saw the run, I—still to this day—I’ve
never seen the TV of the shooting. I have never seen that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went out to Martin’s house, did you have any fear
for yourself?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any fear or thought that the police or
someone might try to implicate you?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you describe yourself as being shaken up when you
were at the police station——
Mr. SENATOR. Something like this, I would say the normal person it
would make him nervous. Here I have gone through a half a century
already and I have never had any incidents in my life, and I would say
the normal person would be shaken up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t have any more. Wait a second. Let me ask this.
When you came downtown with Mr. Martin, did you come down in his car or
your car?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I came down in my truck. No, I think I came down
in his car. I’m not sure but I think I came down in his car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you parked, whose car it was where you
parked downtown?
Mr. SENATOR. Either parked on Commerce or Main Street, one of the two.
I’m not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Near Harwood or near Pearl, or were you right in front of
the police station?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; we were down further, just to grab a parking
space. I just don’t remember how far down it was, but I would assume,
I think we walked, I don’t know, maybe two or three blocks to my
knowledge, something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you come by the Western Union station?
Mr. SENATOR. Going up with Mr. Martin?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Either way, either going downtown or walking back to the
police station.
Mr. SENATOR. I think we come up Commerce. I’m not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me then be more direct about this. Do you have any
recollection that day of seeing Jack Ruby’s car downtown?
Mr. SENATOR. No; that I have never seen, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t think I have anything more, Mr. Hubert.
Mr. HUBERT. Before I pass on to another aspect, I think there is one
point that needs a bit of clarification. Mr. Griffin asked you whether
or not you considered calling Ruby when you heard that Oswald had
been shot, to convey the news to him as you conveyed it to your other
friend, Mr. Martin. You said that you had not because you didn’t know
where he was; is that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I knew he left the house, you know, before I did.
Mr. HUBERT. You have also testified that he had told you that he was
going to take the dog to the club.
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, you knew he was at the club or at least you had
some indication?
Mr. SENATOR. He could have been there. Now he told me he was going to
the club.
Mr. HUBERT. And the club was just about a block away?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. So when you didn’t get Mr. Martin, you didn’t try Ruby at
the club?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You knew the number of the club?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any comment to make as to why you didn’t call Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. No particular reason. I didn’t think of it, because when
he left the house he said he was going to take the dog to the club and
most naturally I heard the conversation he was going to the Western
Union, so who knew where his whereabouts would be.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, of course, you didn’t know his whereabouts after you
called Martin?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right, there was no particular reason. It just
happened to be that I thought of Jim Martin.
Mr. HUBERT. All I want to do is to give you an opportunity to state
for the record why it was that you did not next think of calling your
friend and roommate whose approximate location you knew?
Mr. SENATOR. It just didn’t enter my mind, that is all. I just didn’t
think about it. There was no particular reason why.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this, Mr. Senator. Was it your practice to
spend time socially with Jack Ruby other than when you saw him at the
apartment? Did you and he do things together?
Mr. SENATOR. No; first of all I’m out most of the time. When I get up
in the morning, I mean he is still sleeping when I got up, and I don’t
see him in the daytime. Maybe on rare occasions something will happen,
but the overall picture, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you say you are out most of the time. Is this in
connection with your business?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a set of calls that you make every day?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I make calls.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Regular customers that you call on?
Mr. SENATOR. Customers, or at times probably get new ones.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on Saturdays or Sundays you do not work?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. With whom do you spend your time on Saturdays and Sundays
normally?
Mr. SENATOR. Nothing in general. Once in a while I would meet Jim
downtown because Jim Martin comes downtown on a Saturday, like a lot of
lawyers do. They come down about 10, 10:30, 11 o’clock and they check
their mail or any messages come in, such as that. Incidentally Jim
Martin’s office is right across the street; of course, he just moved
recently. It was at the Davis Building which is across the street from
the Adolphus Hotel on Main. He has been there for quite a number of
years to my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who would you list as your friends in Dallas outside of
Jim Martin and Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, the people I stayed with who were friends of mine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us their names?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Jean and Lindy Lauve, a fellow by the name of Bill
Downey, Tom Howard, the attorney. I don’t say I associated with him but
he is a friend of mine. Another lawyer by the name of Mike Barclay: he
is a friend of mine. Not that these are complete associations that you
are with them every day or so, or things of that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But are there other people whom you see more often and you
are closer to than Barclay and Howard?
Mr. SENATOR. No; not particularly. Of course, every now and then an
out-of-town friend of mine would come in, a traveling man; if he
happened to be in Dallas I would see him, or he may call me. In other
words, I’ll put it this way—I had a particular hangout.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?
Mr. SENATOR. That was the Burgundy Room. I used to go there quite often.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is in the Adolphus Hotel?
Mr. SENATOR. That is in the lobby of the Adolphus Hotel. When I used
to go in, you know, the latter part of the afternoon, around 5, used
to always run across friends that you know and we would always have a
talk session or something of that nature there. Of course, I had many
friends that came in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you would say that you saw Barclay and Howard and
Martin more often than you saw the other people?
Mr. SENATOR. Martin more so than the others. But the others, I’d see
them every now and then. Like the trial I’d seen them down at the
courthouse and things of that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now what about the Lauves?
Mr. SENATOR. The Lauves, those are people who I stayed with, who kept
me up when I didn’t have a place to stay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you see them more often than you saw Howard and
Barclay?
Mr. SENATOR. I stayed there every day. I was living there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean prior to the shooting.
Mr. SENATOR. Prior to that on rare occasions, on rare occasions. One
time I used to see them quite often. Of course, that is when I was
traveling.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But at the time that Jack Ruby shot Lee Oswald, of all
the people you have mentioned, Jim Martin was the person you felt the
closest to?
Mr. SENATOR. He was a close friend of mine. I used to see him almost
every day, especially more so during the trial.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But what I am trying to get at is was there anybody else
to whom you felt equally as close?
Mr. SENATOR. I had—let me put it this way—I had a lot of good friends.
I don’t know how you want to classify what you call close. Many friends
I had, good friends.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Apparently of all the people you knew in Dallas, the one
that you felt most inclined to call when you heard that Oswald had been
shot was Jim Martin.
Mr. SENATOR. It happened to be I thought of Jim Martin, yes, and I
called him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And if you had reached him at that time, I suppose you
would have gone out to his house or you would have carried this on
further. You have had some conversation with him about it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I imagine so. I would imagine so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am getting at is you didn’t really have to convey
the news to Jim Martin or anybody else.
Mr. SENATOR. No; it just happened to be it was local news, you know. It
is like probably a thousand other people did, called their friends “Did
you hear this, did you hear that.” It could be anywheres in the country.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When the President was shot did you call anybody?
Mr. SENATOR. No; because I didn’t know. I was told.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But when you were told did you call anybody?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; because the reason I didn’t call anybody, it was a
weekday. Now this is only guesswork. It was a weekday, and, of course,
I assumed that everybody knew it as fast as I knew it or probably
faster than I knew it, with the many thousands of people who were in
that locale, they knew it before I did.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, let’s continue from the point that you left the
jail. Did you meet anyone?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who?
Mr. SENATOR. I was with Jim, I met Jim Martin and another attorney who
I had only met for the first time and I don’t remember his name.
Mr. HUBERT. They were waiting for you or you met them outside?
Mr. SENATOR. They told me they would meet me somewheres.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?
Mr. SENATOR. We met at a bar across the street from the courthouse.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the name of the bar?
Mr. SENATOR. I think it was the TV Bar.
Mr. HUBERT. The message you had was that they would meet you there, is
that right?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did go there and talked to Martin and the other
lawyer?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the other attorney.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you with them?
Mr. SENATOR. If I recall right, I would say we sat in that bar and had
two or three beers, if I remember right. I think I said to Jim “I don’t
have a place to sleep or a place to go” because I was afraid to go home.
Mr. HUBERT. You told that to Jim Martin?
Mr. SENATOR. I told that to Jim, and I believe—wait a minute now—I
believe, I am not sure but I think I went to his house and he said he
would put me up on the couch if I was afraid to go anywheres, which I
was. From there on in I was afraid to go home.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mr. SENATOR. Why was I afraid to go home? Well, I was just scared, that
is all.
Mr. HUBERT. Of what?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know of what, but I was scared.
Mr. HUBERT. Obviously you were scared that somebody might try to hurt
you?
Mr. SENATOR. Very possibly, yes; on something like this. Now who or
what I don’t know but that was the instinct I had. As a matter of fact
I was scared for about 10 days after that.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you were scared for 10 days after being——
Mr. SENATOR. In other words, for about 10 days I was afraid to sleep
in the same place twice. Who I was to fear I don’t know, but just the
normal thing, I was afraid.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say you slept at different places every night?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; until I finally moved in with Jean.
Mr. HUBERT. What were some of the places you slept in?
Mr. SENATOR. I slept at Jim’s a few times. I checked into an
inexpensive hotel one time. I slept at another fellow’s apartment one
time and then I finally went to Jean’s and stayed there, Jean Lauve.
She said she would put me up because she and everybody else knew I was
scared. You asked me what I feared. I don’t know who I feared or what I
feared but I just——
Mr. HUBERT. You honestly feared that somebody——
Mr. SENATOR. I was just in fear that is all which is a natural instinct
in a situation such as this.
Mr. HUBERT. I am not saying it is not natural.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But I am trying to see if you had any idea in your own mind
what you were afraid of. Now obviously you were afraid of being hurt.
Mr. SENATOR. Certainly I was afraid.
Mr. HUBERT. Possibly being killed?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now of who or what I don’t know. It could be a
crackpot. I don’t know what it could be.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you give some consideration to the thought that whoever
had been involved with the killing of the President might want to kill
you?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I didn’t know who to fear. It was just a
natural instinct. I would imagine anybody in the same situation would
probably fear something. It was just a natural thing for a human being
to do.
Mr. HUBERT. I am not criticizing you, Mr. Senator; at all. I am just
trying to find out the reason.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I had no reason or any particular thing. There was no
reason for it.
Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned one, that a crank might try to hurt you.
Mr. SENATOR. A crank might. Yes; I can’t measure what or who. It was
just a fear.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it your thought that there might be some group of
people who might want to hurt you?
Mr. SENATOR. I can’t say it was a group or what it is or who it may be.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that you don’t know of any group?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But didn’t it cross your mind that there might be a group
who would want to get rid of you for some reason or other?
Mr. SENATOR. This didn’t enter my mind that it was any group or
anything of this nature here. All I knew is I had a fear. I don’t know
who, but something. I was just afraid, that is all.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you arm yourself in anyway?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I never armed myself in my life. The only gun I ever
had is when they had me overseas. That is the only time I ever had a
gun. I never carried a knife or a gun in my life.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do during these several days when you were in
effect afraid? Did you move out in the open or did you stay——
Mr. SENATOR. I was afraid of the nighttime, not the daytime. In other
words, I wanted—I didn’t want to be in an isolated place anywhere. It
is not that I wasn’t out at night or daytime, which I was, but I didn’t
want to be in an isolated place. In other words, I wouldn’t want to be
walking down a lonely street or something like that because that would
scare the life out of me. But around groups or something like that, I
didn’t fear it that much. Now what I feared I don’t know, but it was
just a natural thing I feel any individual would fear.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you communicate that fear to Jim Martin?
Mr. SENATOR. Not only to him but to many of my friends. I said, “I’m
just afraid.”
Mr. HUBERT. It was for that reason that several of them put you up?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right. I told them I was afraid. They said “What
are you afraid of?” You know people say, “What are you afraid of?” I
said, “I’m just scared, that is all”—and who wouldn’t be?
Mr. HUBERT. So your friends also were asking you as I have been as to
what would you be afraid of. That is a fact isn’t it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they asked me, “What are you afraid of?” I said, “I
don’t know, I’m just afraid, that is all.” I can’t say who I am afraid
of. I don’t know who I am afraid of.
Mr. HUBERT. I know that you wouldn’t know necessarily individuals, but
you must have done something——
Mr. SENATOR. Or groups, individuals or groups as you mentioned. I can’t
place my finger on it.
Mr. HUBERT. But what I am suggesting to you is that your fear came from
the thought that any individual or group that had anything to do with
either the slaying of the President or the slaying of Oswald may have
you in mind next?
Mr. SENATOR. No; my thoughts didn’t run that way. My thoughts were
nothing but fear, and I didn’t have my mind on any groups or anything
like that. I just didn’t know. It might be an individual crackpot
walking the streets, who knows, he doesn’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I think that is a very understandable reason that you
gave us as to the crackpot.
Mr. SENATOR. It could be. I don’t know what it could be.
Mr. HUBERT. It went beyond that though, didn’t it?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Just your fear of a crackpot?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. That is all it was?
Mr. SENATOR. When you say “beyond that,” what do you mean “beyond that”?
Mr. HUBERT. That your fear went beyond the mere fear that a crackpot
would hurt you, your fear and your thought about the matter went to the
point that some people other than a crackpot might——
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t think that way.
Mr. HUBERT. Then are you willing to say that it was only your fear of a
crackpot?
Mr. SENATOR. I use “crackpot” as one but I don’t know how to describe
it. Who knows what it could be. It could be an individual walking the
street, I don’t know. When I was scared I had no particular thing in
mind. It was just I was scared, that is all.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it ever occur to you during this period when you were
frightened that Jack Ruby might have been set up by someone to kill
Oswald?
Mr. SENATOR. Run that back again. Let me understand it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it ever occur to you at anytime after the shooting and
when your fears began to develop that Jack Ruby might have been part
of a plot to kill Oswald, and that there were others involved in the
matter?
Mr. SENATOR. None whatsoever.
Mr. HUBERT. That never occurred to you?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was not any part of the basis of your fear?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. As I understand you then, you considered right from the
start that this was an individual act on the part of Ruby, unconnected
with anyone else?
Mr. SENATOR. Run your words again. I’ve got to follow you.
Mr. HUBERT. I say as I understand it then your thoughts from the very
beginning were that Ruby’s action was his own and that no one else was
connected with it?
Mr. SENATOR. Did you say his actions was his own when this thing
happened?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; and that you never considered that anyone else was in
it at all but Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. No; definitely not. I never thought of anything such as
that.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t understand your answer. Pardon me. You wouldn’t
think of anything such as what?
Mr. SENATOR. To me he wasn’t connected with anybody whatsoever of any
nature.
Mr. HUBERT. You think that now and you have always thought that, is
that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he wasn’t connected with anyone.
Mr. HUBERT. Therefore, your fears could not have been based upon the
thought that anyone that he was connected with would want to hurt you,
obviously, since you never thought that he had any connections?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t have any. Let me put it this way. Even today
I still have a certain fear. Now you ask me what I fear today, I don’t
know. This is something you just don’t erase out of your mind, that is
all. This is not a little thing; this is a big thing.
Mr. HUBERT. After that Sunday night, when you talked to the lawyers for
awhile, you went home I understand to Jim Martin’s?
Mr. SENATOR. If I remember right, I’m not sure but I think Jim put me
up because I was afraid to go home and I didn’t have a place to go to.
If I remember right I think he did. I think I went to his apartment,
his home rather.
Mr. HUBERT. I am moving to the next few days, Mr. Griffin.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever given any consideration to the thought or to
the possibility that someone else might have been associated with Jack
Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the killing of Oswald?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not asking you whether you ever believed such a thing
but whether you ever explored that possibility in your own mind?
Mr. SENATOR. No; never could think of anything such as that. Jack was
a true American. He loved his country. This is for sure. He loved the
land that he lived in as I have told you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated before that there were a lot of things Jack
didn’t talk to you about.
Mr. SENATOR. That Jack would talk to me about?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That he did not, Jack didn’t talk to you about everything
he did?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack lived in the show business type. This is his life. He
lived in the glamour of the show business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you feel that Jack talked to you about everything that
he was doing?
Mr. SENATOR. Who can answer that? How could I answer that? How could I
really answer that and know?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, sometimes you associate with a person and you know
he is the kind of person who doesn’t go out and talk about everything
he is doing, in fact that he is the kind of person who is reticent to
talk about some of the things he is doing.
Mr. SENATOR. I would say Jack was the type that would not hold back to
my knowledge, that would hide anything. I don’t think he would hide
anything from me. I can’t say positive but I don’t think he would.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, he didn’t discuss his relationships in the Vegas
Club or in the Carousel Club with you.
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To any extent, did he?
Mr. SENATOR. Look, his money parts he isn’t going to detail to me how
much he is taking in and things of that nature or who he owes or what
he don’t owe. I mean I wasn’t confided in that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you about any of the problems he was having
at the club?
Mr. SENATOR. He had problems, you know, he had problems with his sister
because they were of the same nature. They were cat and dog fighters.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he having any problems with the Federal Government?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I assume he was. What they were I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then it is——
Mr. SENATOR. What I mean to say, the Federal Government, you mean tax
problems?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I am certain he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But I take it these were not things that he discussed with
you?
Mr. SENATOR. No; you could be friendly, friendly and all that there,
but you don’t know. I mean they don’t tell you everything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So what I am suggesting again or asking you again is if
Jack was not the kind of person who about certain matters which he
considered personal or important to himself wouldn’t talk about it.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think he would discuss everything; as a
matter of fact I don’t think there is any individual who will tell you
everything. I don’t care who they are. I am certain, I know there are
people, every little thing, I mean there are certain things they keep
to themselves. I would probably say like you, you, or anybody else.
They are not going to tell you everything about their whereabouts,
their notes, what they owe or what they don’t owe or things of that
nature. Everybody has a little secret or two.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To put it another way, you wouldn’t describe Jack Ruby as
the kind of person who as a matter of his constitutional and emotional
makeup had to tell you everything he was doing? There are some people
like that.
Mr. SENATOR. You mean would he tell me everything he was doing?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; there are some people who are the kind of people who
just somehow have to unload almost everything they are doing to other
people. Now Jack Ruby wasn’t that kind of person, was he?
Mr. SENATOR. Of what he thought you mean or his thinking?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or his problems and so forth.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think he would; no. I don’t think he would unload
everything. I am certain there are things that he may have owed or
certain discussions he may have had that I am certain he wouldn’t
discuss with me. I am certain he didn’t want me to know everything
there was to know, you know, like anybody else would. There are certain
things that an individual keeps to themselves, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead, Mr. Hubert.
Mr. HUBERT. I want to pass to the next day, which is to say Monday,
the 25th, unless you can advise me now that there was nothing of
significance that occurred on the night of the 24th after you had met
with Mr. Martin and Mr. Barclay.
Mr. SENATOR. You mean Sunday night?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Barclay wasn’t with me Sunday night.
Mr. HUBERT. There was another attorney.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I didn’t say Barclay. I don’t remember his name.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember his name?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see Tom Howard that night?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if I did or not. I don’t remember if I saw
him or not that night.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to bed early?
Mr. SENATOR. You see I can’t quote if I did or didn’t. I just don’t
remember if I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you went to bed at Jim Martin’s
house?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it could have been 11, 12, I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. As I remember it, you said you met them at about 6 or 7. It
was dark in any case?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. You stayed about a half hour and you left?
Mr. SENATOR. What?
Mr. HUBERT. You stayed about a half hour in the beer place?
Mr. SENATOR. It may have been a half hour, it may have been an hour, I
don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. And you left and went to Jim Martin’s?
Mr. SENATOR. I believe we went to Jim Martin’s house. I think that I
slept there that first night.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you meet anyone else that first night or speak to
anyone else that first night, that is November the 24th, 1963?
Mr. SENATOR. November 24?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Are you talking about Friday?
Mr. HUBERT. No; November 24 was a Sunday.
Mr. SENATOR. No; because I was wrapped up. I was wrapped up in the
courthouse all that day.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean to say after you left the beer parlor, which I
think you said was the TV Bar?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You said you think you went to Jim Martin’s house?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember if I met Tom Howard. I just don’t
remember the incident but I am almost certain that I went there to
sleep.
Mr. HUBERT. You went to Jim Martin’s house?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am asking you is that prior to the time——
Mr. SENATOR. Did we meet anybody else?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t remember but I don’t think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s come then to Monday morning.
What happened then?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, if you can let me interrupt you here before
you get to Monday morning.
When you met with Martin at the TV Bar, did you all talk about Jack
Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; there was discussion of it, that there and the
events. Of course, he asked me what happened after I got in there. I
told him. This detective, I guess, I just don’t remember who the man
was, they interrogated me and I told them the FBI interrogated me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Martin say anything to you about Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t remember. I don’t think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate whether or not he had seen Jack while you
were being interrogated by the police?
Mr. SENATOR. If I remember right, I think he said he seen him at a
glance behind us, I think it was the same window that I saw. They had
him in this room there and I think there were three or four men there,
something like that, but there was this glass partition. In other
words, you could see in. I think he saw him. I am not sure but I think
he saw him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Tom Howard at the TV Bar at that time?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. I remember there was Jim, there was this
other attorney, but I don’t remember if Tom was or not. In other words,
I don’t want to quote and say he was or wasn’t because I just don’t
remember. He may have been now. He may have been there. I just can’t
think if he was or not that night. He may have been.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what your conversation was about at the TV
Bar?
Mr. SENATOR. No; of course, I told him—he asked me what happened, you
know. I told him I was interrogated by the local police and the FBI.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about Jack’s defense?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now Saturday night, the 23d, you spent some time with Bill
Downey and Mike Barclay?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see them?
Mr. SENATOR. We were sitting at a bar.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which bar was that?
Mr. SENATOR. I think we were in the Burgundy Room and then we went to
another one there and had I think either one or two beers and then we
went home. At least I went home anyhow.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the other bar that you were in?
Mr. SENATOR. It was very seldom I ever went there. I’m trying to think
of the name of it. It is a short name too, and I can’t even put my
finger on it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What street was it on?
Mr. SENATOR. On Fitzhugh.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that located?
Mr. SENATOR. It was on Fitzhugh. It runs off of, I think—down where
Travis is?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No.
Mr. SENATOR. Fitzhugh and Travis. I should know the name of it but I
can’t get it off my tongue. It is a short name too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that anywhere near Hall Street?
Mr. SENATOR. No; this is uptown about I would probably say from the
downtown area I would imagine it would probably take you 10 minutes to
get up there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you mean the time you spent with Downey and
Barclay—what did you talk about with them that night, Saturday night?
Mr. SENATOR. We talked about the occurrence of the shooting of the
President, that there. It was just a gloomy night. That is why I didn’t
want to stay long. I said I wanted to get home and they said they
wanted to get home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you had a date to meet them at the Burgundy Room?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I think I met them both by chance there. Now I am not
sure if I had a date to meet Bill or not, I don’t remember, but I think
Mike just walked in casually. I mean just happened to walk in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Bill married?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about Mike?
Mr. SENATOR. Mike; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they know Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Who don’t know Jack in Dallas? They all knew him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk about Jack that night?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how much time would you say you spent with them
Saturday?
Mr. SENATOR. We went to that bar, I would roughly say maybe a half hour
to three quarters of an hour, I would guess around that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That was at the Burgundy Room?
Mr. SENATOR. No; that is when we went to this other place and had a
beer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All together, the time you spent at the Burgundy Room and
the other place on Fitzhugh how much time did you spend with them?
Mr. SENATOR. Maybe an hour and a half.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then when you went home what did you do?
Mr. SENATOR. I went home and went to bed. I think I took a newspaper
with me, if I am not mistaken and went home and went to bed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get to bed at what you would consider an early
hour Saturday night?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I would say it was somewhere around 11.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much sleep do you normally get, when you go to bed,
how much sleep do you normally put in in a night?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, of course, that would go according to what time you
went to bed, you know. It could be 4, 5, 6, 7 hours. I doubt if I ever
stay in bed more than 8 hours the most, if it ever happens that long,
which is rare.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So would it be your estimate that on Sunday morning you
arose by 7 o’clock?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think I got up that early.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you didn’t get up that early, then would it have been
because you got to bed late that night after 11 or after midnight?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I must have been home about 11 o’clock that night. I
think I read a little bit but I know I was in bed before 12. I think I
was in the apartment around 11. I got home around 11.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t think you got more than 8 hours sleep that night
or do you?
Mr. SENATOR. I doubt if I got more than 8 hours sleep.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then I suggest to you that in all probability you got up
on Sunday morning before 8 o’clock.
Mr. SENATOR. I would say around 8. Now mind you I got home 11 o’clock;
so I assume I got in bed maybe around 12. Now mind you it is not
necessarily that you fall asleep right away. Look, there is many a
night that I toss and turn for 4 or 5 hours and didn’t fall asleep,
which is rare, but it has happened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have trouble sleeping that night?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I mean when I went to sleep, when I fell asleep I
slept well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert.
Mr. HUBERT. Now let’s see. I think we were at the point of Monday
morning, and I should like you to tell us what happened on Monday
beginning with the time you got up on Monday morning. I think you said
you slept at Jim Martin’s house.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you do the next day?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I got up and I drove him to his office and I think
from there I went——
Mr. HUBERT. In your car?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I drove him down, and I dropped him off, and then I
went and had coffee. I don’t remember if it was around 9 or something
like that. He gets down about 9 in the morning.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anything happen at the coffee shop?
Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing particular, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Did the people there talk about Ruby and your connection
with him?
Mr. SENATOR. Talk to me about him? No; they didn’t say anything, but
they knew, you know. The people who knew me knew.
Mr. HUBERT. But nobody said anything to you?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. But the fact that you had been his roommate.
Mr. SENATOR. No; it was pretty silent. It was pretty silent.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened the rest of the day? What did you do that day?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I just roamed around in a fog that day, nothing in
particular.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t attempt to do your normal business?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I wasn’t in any condition for business. I didn’t feel
that good.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember seeing anybody that day at all.
Mr. SENATOR. I am certain—who I saw I don’t remember but I am certain
that I seen people; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned that sometime you saw Howard and you don’t
know whether you saw Howard the night before.
Mr. SENATOR. It is very possible that I may have seen Howard the next
day. I may have seen him. Now where or when I don’t know, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you see him about? Can you tell us what the nature
of the conversation was?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I heard that Howard was getting the case, the Jack
Ruby case.
Mr. HUBERT. So you went to see him about what? Put it this way, did he
call for you?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or did you just decide to go and see him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he didn’t call for me.
Mr. HUBERT. You went to see him?
Mr. SENATOR. I saw him sometime during that day.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us what it was about, what you talked about?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t believe it was anything particular that we talked
about except I heard that he was getting the Jack Ruby case.
I don’t remember the particular conversation at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps you can tell us this then. Since he didn’t call
upon you, you called upon him, what was the purpose of your visiting
him? To find out the status of it?
Mr. SENATOR. Of me?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. HUBERT. To find out the status of Ruby’s defense, to see if you
could help, to see if you could throw light upon it, to find out what
was going on?
Mr. SENATOR. Everything in general was going on, you know. The
photographers were around and the newspapers were around, and I believe
he was down at the jailhouse. It is a conglomeration of things going on.
Mr. HUBERT. But you went to see him, and I suppose that was the purpose
of the visit, that was the purpose in mind.
Mr. SENATOR. No; there was no purpose in mind. It was just going to see
him. When you say the purpose in mind—I was so mixed up myself I didn’t
know what was going on.
Mr. HUBERT. I am not trying to confuse you.
Mr. SENATOR. There was no general purpose in mind.
Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying to us is then that you just went to see
him, Mr. Howard, and that there was no purpose in mind.
Mr. SENATOR. No particular purpose in mind. I saw him. I saw Jim Martin
later on that day.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you excuse me a minute. Will you take over.
(Short recess taken.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will simply ask you to remember everything that Mr.
Hubert has been in the practice of repeating before we proceed.
Mr. SENATOR. If I can remember it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To the effect that you are still under oath and we are
continuing under the same circumstances that we began.
I believe we were talking about Monday, and you had indicated that on
Monday you went to see Tom Howard.
Mr. SENATOR. I saw him. I just don’t remember where. Monday there was
so much excitement going that when I say excitement, of the occurrence
of the day before, and with your photographers around town and your
pressmen and whatnot, you know, and the incoming of the FBI and things
of that nature there, you know, it was a crazy cycle, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to any members of the Ruby family that day?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I saw them that day. I can’t quote every
instance.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his employees?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I went up—let’s see, the club was closed Friday,
Saturday and Sunday, and I think they did open Monday, and I think
I was up there Monday night, if I am not mistaken, and, of course,
going up there you had all your photographers, especially the ones
from Europe and various parts were coming around. Of course, everybody
wanted to see what the Carousel Club was. You know, it was just a
mixed-up thing, so many things were going on there, and you were just
roaming here and there, and, of course, people were questioning. A lot
of people wanted to take pictures of me and this thing here. It was
just a jammed-up, mixed-up day.
I know I saw Tom Howard that day. I don’t remember where I saw him, if
I called on him or what it was because so many things were going on
there and my mind was in a muddle even with that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The questioning that took place on Monday, did it have to
do with what you had done on Friday, Saturday and Sunday?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What Jack had done on Friday, Saturday or Sunday?
Mr. SENATOR. No; there was nothing in general. I mean there was nothing
particular. I mean all my questionings—I mean all my questionings—I had
that Sunday you know, with the local detective or whoever the gentlemen
was, and the FBI man.
But Monday, when they wanted to know about Jack Ruby, they wanted to
see pictures of him. They wanted to see the club of his. They wanted to
see whatever they could get their hands on to see. They wanted to know
this about him and that about him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they want to know if he was involved with anybody
else, whether there could have been a plot or a conspiracy to kill
Oswald?
Mr. SENATOR. I am certain that probably would run through the minds of
everybody.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were they asking questions about that?
Mr. SENATOR. They have asked me so many questions that I can’t even
remember to think of them, you know, because there were so many
questions thrown at you. And when they are throwing them at you, the
general questions, they wanted to see the club, they wanted to see
pictures, who were the strippers, this, that and whatnot. There was
nothing precise except the curiosity of the things they wanted to see.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now when you talked with Howard, of course, Howard
indicated to you that you probably would be a witness for Jack, did he
not?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember the incident at that time. I don’t
remember if he said it or not because I would probably say it was a
little too soon at that time, the happenings, and I assume that Howard
was kept pretty busy at the beginning, probably going to see Jack Ruby
and this. You see, people were grabbing everybody.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When is the first time that you recall talking with anyone
about being a witness for Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. At that time it didn’t even enter my head. I wasn’t
thinking about that even. But as time went by, and I can’t specify just
how much time went by, I believe it was when Mr. Belli came into the
case. See, I don’t remember just how long it was from there until they
got this Belli.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: After you heard that Jack had killed
Oswald, did you have any idea, did you think, why did he do it?
Mr. SENATOR. I hadn’t the slightest idea. I couldn’t imagine why. I’ll
tell you why I say that. Because he never at any time ever gave me any
indication of anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you since then——
Mr. SENATOR. I just couldn’t picture this man doing it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t think. I couldn’t picture him being of this
nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And there was nothing that he had done that you had seen
up to that point that would indicate that he had any thought about it?
Mr. SENATOR. No, none whatsoever. As a matter of fact, he had never
even mentioned this Oswald to me during this occurrence even, but he
had talked about the President, and he had talked about Mrs. Kennedy
and the children, I don’t know how many times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you think he was any more disturbed than what you——
Mr. SENATOR. He was plenty disturbed. He was plenty disturbed. The man
was crying. People have seen him, not only I, people have seen him
crying. As a matter of fact, one of the kids in the club one night when
we sat in a corner related he was crying and very, very disturbed. I
believe it was one afternoon he was in there, if I remember right, I
think it was the colored boy, Andrews, if I am not mistaken, I think
said he saw him in a solemn condition or whatever condition you want to
call it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when you were interviewed by Elmer Moore?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you living at that time? Who were you staying
with at that time?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t want to be quoted, but I think I was staying with
Jean Lauve then. I am not sure, but I think I was there at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did the interview take place?
Mr. SENATOR. At the FBI building. I can’t think of the name of the
building, but the FBI people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The office of the Secret Service? Moore is with the Secret
Service.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, the Secret Service. I meant to say the Secret Service.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he call you and ask you to come down?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He had left a message at the Carousel or he may have
been up there. As a matter of fact, I can even show you his card if you
would like to see it. I’ve still got that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think you were staying with the Lauves at
that point?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I was there. I’m not sure. I don’t remember just
where, but I think I was there at that time, because when Elmer Moore
called me, I just don’t remember how many days have elapsed by when he
called me, see. I think it was a few days that were elapsed by when he
called me and I think I may have been at the Lauves at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you return to work at any time before Moore——
Mr. SENATOR. Return to work?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; before Moore called you.
Mr. SENATOR. I hadn’t worked at all from this thing here up until I
told you I went to work the other day. If you want to classify me, I
was just existing here and there, that is all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Your employment up until the time that the President was
killed was with the Texas Postcard & Novelty Co.?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that your own company?
Mr. SENATOR. I was classified as sales manager and partner, but with no
say. In other words, I had no money.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were the people, the backers?
Mr. SENATOR. The backers?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. The people? A fellow by the name of Mort Seder and Ernest
St. Charles.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to get involved in that?
Mr. SENATOR. In the postcard business?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; with them?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, Ernest St. Charles found out—see, he had a card rack
like a lot of drug stores do or gift shops or things of that nature. He
had found out that this fellow wanted to sell his business because this
was a minute business with him because, he had another one, you know,
which was much larger or whatever, the household goods or something of
that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As I understand it, the Texas Postcard & Novelty Co. was a
going business.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before Seder and St. Charles got involved in it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it was going. It was a going business. And he
wanted to get rid of this business, because I just don’t remember if
he couldn’t handle it or he couldn’t handle both of them, I think
it was. And this business here, he had to get rid of because it was
deteriorating a bit because it wasn’t getting the service. It wasn’t
being handled for the service. In other words, his business had slipped
a certain amount.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Seder and St. Charles put up some money to acquire
this business?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, they put up the money; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how much money did they put up?
Mr. SENATOR. I think they put up somewheres around $1,500 apiece, and
I think they took a note for $1,500. I think the business went for
$3,000, if I can remember right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What assets, what kind of assets did they acquire?
Mr. SENATOR. The cards.
Mr. GRIFFIN. No office space?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no. See, he is in business in a little sort of a
garage like in the back of his house. In the back of his house he has
got this sort of garage-like thing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who are you talking about?
Mr. SENATOR. The fellow that had it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what his name was?
Mr. SENATOR. I should remember his name. I can’t even think of his name
right now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, maybe you will think of it later. Did Seder and
St. Charles have another business which they operated while they——
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this business was a small little thing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was a sideline with them?
Mr. SENATOR. Just a little thing. It wasn’t even, you know—it was a
small little business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Seder’s main business?
Mr. SENATOR. Seder was a traveling man who sold men’s apparel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was St. Charles’ main business?
Mr. SENATOR. St. Charles, a drugstore.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you acquire the postcards and novelties from?
Mr. SENATOR. The novelties, you see, there was a few novelties that he
had left over in this thing here, in this business here, which weren’t
that good, and I got rid of them at a loss, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you buy any——
Mr. SENATOR. There wasn’t that much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you buy any more novelties to supplant those?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you buy those?
Mr. SENATOR. Some I bought locally and some were bought out of town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And I take it the postcards, you had some source supplying
the postcards too?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Seder and St. Charles between the time that
Jack Ruby killed Oswald and the time that Elmer Moore talked with you?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him by telephone?
Mr. SENATOR. Who?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Seder and St. Charles.
Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it then that you did not feel any obligation to
report back to them and tell them that you were not going to be——
Mr. SENATOR. I was obligated, but the condition I felt, it was just a
no-care attitude any more.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any sort of a draw from this postcard and
novelty company?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your draw?
Mr. SENATOR. It was $75 a week, but I was drawing $61.45.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you continue with your draw after Jack——
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t continue after Jack killed Oswald?
Mr. SENATOR. Nothing. I didn’t do anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after Elmer Moore talked with you, you were then
interviewed some time later by two FBI agents, Mr. Rawlings and Glonek?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember where you were staying at that time?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I was staying with Lauve. The first approximately
10 days you know, I was just jumping around. But from there on in I was
with Lauve.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stay with the Lauves?
Mr. SENATOR. I must have stayed with them, I would probably say
approximately around 5 weeks, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you leave Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. I left Dallas, I think it was about the end of the first
week, if I remember right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of what?
Mr. SENATOR. January.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And when did you return to Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. It was the latter part of February. I think it was the
last week in February.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were away from Dallas, where were you?
Mr. SENATOR. At my sister’s.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Freda Weisberg in New York?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your occasion for returning to Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. I knew I had to be a witness because I was called on the
first bond hearing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That was your occasion?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For returning?
Mr. SENATOR. I had to come back as a witness.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the bond hearing?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no. I was at the bond hearing before I went away. I
think I was at the first bond hearing. I don’t remember the date, but
it was in December sometime.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that before or after you talked with Agents Rawlings
and Glonek that you appeared at the bond hearing?
Mr. SENATOR. That was before because I remember one day that I met one
of the agents. As a matter of fact, I was in the lobby of the Adolphus
Hotel and one of the agents hollered out, “Hi, George” and I turned
around to see who it was. It happened he was talking to some other
agents and they were departing, they were going home.
So I walked over to him and I asked him who would I notify if I wanted
to, who would I notify with the FBI that I was going to leave, that I
wanted to go home but I wanted them to know where I was going, and he
mentioned, call Mr. Clements.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time of the first bond hearing, who was
representing Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. Mr. Belli, Joe Tannenbaum—not Tannenbaum, Joe Tonahill.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Anyone else?
Mr. SENATOR. Tom Howard was in it, but at that time he had no say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened that Howard was not given any say?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I am not sure how to relate it, but I think that
Earl Ruby, who was in Detroit then, was still in Detroit, spoke to some
lawyer I think in Chicago now. I think it was in Chicago, looking for a
lawyer, a big lawyer for Jack Ruby, and this lawyer to my knowledge, if
I understand it right, was quoted to get Mr. Belli.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how about Tonahill? How did Tonahill get in?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. Tonahill, it seems, must have been a friend
of Belli. The relationship I don’t know, how they met or something of
that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Jack Ruby between the time you last saw
him that Sunday morning, the 24th of November, and now?
Mr. SENATOR. In the jail.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to him?
Mr. SENATOR. In jail, sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you talk with Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Various times, various times that Sheriff Decker would let
me up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see him before the bond hearing?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I did, yes. I think so. I think I was up there. I
mean I can’t quote dates. I don’t even remember what the date of the
bond hearing was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the first time you went up to see him?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go up with anybody?
Mr. SENATOR. No, I went up alone. The reason for that, the reason I
say I went up alone is because nobody was up there, allowed up there,
besides the family and maybe very, very close friends because Sheriff
Decker wouldn’t allow anybody in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you spend with Jack that first time?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. You know, they have got a limitation on
you. I don’t remember just how long I talked to him. It wasn’t too long
because they let you know that you have got to go.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what happened on this occasion.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember what it was. First of all, I never talked
to him, I would never ask him what happened. I never talked about that.
I talked about anything else, and he was telling me, he said he wanted
me to look up certain people, the locales, tell them where he was and
things like that there, like sisters and Gordon McLendon which he asked
me to go, whom I never saw, never got to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s relationship with Gordon McLendon?
Mr. SENATOR. He just knew him. There was no relationship. He mentioned
a lot of names. He mentioned a lot of names to call them for the bond
hearing. I remember this. He was trying to get certain people to come
to the bond hearing. And he was rattling off a lot of big names. He
rattled off the manager, I don’t remember the name, from the Statler
Hilton, anybody who was prominent, such as I think the rabbi too if I
am not mistaken.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack appear to want to make bond at that time?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. He didn’t discuss that, but I do know—I
can’t answer unless you want me to surmise something, guess on it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Unless you have some information which leads you to think
how he felt.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t have information on that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk to the lawyers about whether they were
really serious about making bond?
Mr. SENATOR. I think the lawyers were trying to get bond for him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with them?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I will tell you something. The lawyers didn’t discuss
anything with me at no time. They said, “George, we are going to use
you as a witness,” which I knew they wanted me for that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There came a time when Howard was no longer part of the
case?
Mr. SENATOR. He was part of the case; he was still part of the case
when I left, you know, but how big his say was I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you got back for the trial, however, he was not a
part of the case; is that correct?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I think he was out of it before I got back. I am not
sure, but I think he was. I don’t think he was in the case.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you returned for the trial, did you have occasion to
talk with Howard at all?
Mr. SENATOR. I saw him on certain occasions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever learn how he happened to get out of the case?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he got out of the case—I mean I really don’t know,
but I feel he got out of the case because he was—there was nothing,
practically, to speak of. I guess that is about the best way to
describe him. He had no say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it something he had told you?
Mr. SENATOR. What?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it something he had told you?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no. But he had no say any more. So I don’t know how to
classify his sitting there, just being there with no say any more, no
nothing. After all, when he originally started, he was the leadman, you
know, and then all the things materialized after that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times would you say you saw Jack Ruby in his jail
cell between the time that he shot Oswald and the time that he was
tried, actually went to trial, in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. How many times?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. A guess?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Your best estimate. Try to give some thought to it.
Mr. SENATOR. Let me see now. I would say maybe 10 or 15 times, I would
guess.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice any change in him over this period of time?
Mr. SENATOR. Sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first notice that he was changing; that there
was some change?
Mr. SENATOR. I saw him very few times, you know, previous to when I
went away, but his change—when I really noticed the change was after I
came back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was in February?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. After the 18th of February?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. His voice was getting lower, and his head was hanging
down, and this is the way it was all the way up until the period, even
after the trial. I don’t know—I don’t know how to describe the words;
you call it deterioration or whatever runs through him; I don’t know. I
would never ask him anything like that, you know. I never spoke about
anything like that; anything but that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice a change——
Mr. SENATOR. He had lost weight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He had lost weight?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You noticed a change in his voice and something about the
way he carried his head?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything else?
Mr. SENATOR. And he lost weight. Of course, he quoted the Bible to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he ever done that before?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean to you; had he ever quoted from the Bible to you
before?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think so, that I can remember of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What passages of the Bible was he quoting?
Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t. He didn’t quote the passages, but he quoted
that he was reading the Bible. He didn’t quote any passages to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his manner of speech other than the deepness of
his voice? Was there anything about the manner of his speech?
Mr. SENATOR. What do you mean; the manner of his speech?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Coherence, his ability to carry through on a topic of
conversation. Was he able to discuss topics as lucidly as he had
discussed them previously to you?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I’ll tell you, it got so that there was a hesitation.
The words were even silent. There was no speaking at times; just, you
know, like, you know. In other words, you know, there is very little of
him I could see. I was looking through this little glass. I couldn’t
touch him or nothing. In other words, instead of his wall being
plaster, the thing was steel or iron, whatever it was; see what I mean?
Mr. GRIFFIN. So you and he would be separated?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes. I couldn’t even touch him. It was impossible.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of him could you see? We are going to have to get
this on the record. This is the problem.
Mr. SENATOR. In other words, I am standing up here and I am looking
through a glass about like this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are looking through a little glass door?
Mr. SENATOR. And like this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A little glass window?
Mr. SENATOR. A window something like this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe 12 inches long and 8 inches high or something?
Mr. SENATOR. Approximately. This is a guess.
Mr. GRIFFIN. At about eye level?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it’s eye level. And under it are these perforations
that you have to talk to; holes. You know; perforated holes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Perforations in a door of some sort?
Mr. SENATOR. No door; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Just a wall?
Mr. SENATOR. Just a wall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you could not see Jack other than through that window?
Mr. SENATOR. No. That is the only thing. It is just a solid——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Steel?
Mr. SENATOR. A solid steel wall. At one end was a door, but that was
solid, too. In other words, when you looked at the door you might as
well say it was part of the wall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was the cell that Jack was kept in?
Mr. SENATOR. No; this was no cell. I don’t know what cell he was in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack stay in there?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He was brought in?
Mr. SENATOR. This is a hallway. This was a narrow hallway. Apparently
they didn’t let you know the cell he was in. I never saw him in a cell.
I have never seen any cells. They’d bring him down in, and, of course,
I can’t see which way they are coming through. All I can say is they
are coming this way when I walk in, and this is this little hall, this
little hallway. I can’t see every bit of him, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And were these always the conditions under which you
talked to Jack, even before you left Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. That is the only way I have ever seen him, from beginning
to end. That is the only way I could ever see him. In other words,
there was no time that I could even touch him to shake his hand;
nothing, because there was nothing but a solid iron or steel, or
whatever it was, wall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that, of course, you noticed the most
marked change in him when you returned to Dallas, and I take it from
that that, up until the time you left Dallas, you didn’t notice any
substantial changes in him?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say that there may have been a little—you
know, there may have been some change, but how much there was or how
much; I know this; I am certain within the man there would have to be
some change, because when I left already, how long has passed, maybe
5 or 6 weeks have already passed by. Within the feelings of himself,
which I don’t know, there must have been some change within him, you
know, which I sort of surmised. Now, how much, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Has there ever been any time that you have talked to Jack
where he wasn’t coherent?
Mr. SENATOR. Take that coherent word and use another phrase.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You use a phrase that is more appropriate to you. I take
it you have some idea of what I am suggesting.
Mr. SENATOR. Well, when you say “coherent,” break it down to another
word and make it more simplified for me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anytime that you talked to him where it appeared
that he did not understand what you were saying to him?
Mr. SENATOR. I never noticed it, or even thought about it that way. I
don’t even know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there ever anytime when you would ask him a question
or say something to him and you would get back a response which did not
make any sense to you?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so; not that I can recall. I don’t think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anytime when you would ask Jack questions and he
would not be able to respond at all?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he was able to respond.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you at anytime talked with Jack about the events of
November 22, 23, and 24?
Mr. SENATOR. Never at anytime have I ever been at that jailhouse where
anything like that ever come up. I have never asked him, and I don’t
think anybody would to my knowledge, would ask him questions like that,
because this would be a hard subject to talk about. I would assume
probably in the condition that he was in and the locale, the placement
of where he is in, of what he is in——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever indicate to you any fear; has he indicated
any fear to you in the times that you have talked to him since he shot
Oswald?
Mr. SENATOR. He didn’t look fearful to me. Now I don’t know, you know.
I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I want to do now is go through with you some
documents. I have got a series of photographs and other things here,
and I want to ask you some questions about them. I am going to hand you
what has been marked for identification as “Exhibit 5304-A,” which was
used in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong. That is a photograph, and
I am going to hand it to you and ask you if you recognize where that
photograph was taken?
Mr. SENATOR. I am not familiar with it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize anybody in that photograph?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t. Where is it supposed to be?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I am asking you.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you look at the man who is tending bar? Do you
recognize him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it is a pretty shady picture to see his face.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked as Exhibit
5304-B, which was also used in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong.
That is another photograph, and it shows a girl in a western costume
standing on a table. Do you recognize any of the people in that
photograph, or do you recognize where that photograph was taken?
Mr. SENATOR. No; never seen a place with elkhorns or whatever they are.
Is that a night club or a restaurant, that place?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I was hoping you would be able to tell us.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I’ll tell you with a guess; it looks like a
restaurant, according to the curtains. That is what it looks like to
me. I don’t even know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to show you what has been marked as “Exhibit
5302,” and unless I indicate to the contrary, all of these exhibits
have been used in the deposition of Andrew Armstrong. That is a
photograph of a man. Do you recognize that man?
Mr. SENATOR. No; is he a Dallas man? I don’t know that man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then I hand you Exhibit 5303-A, and I would like you to
look over that photograph. It is actually a series of about 12 small
photos. Can you tell me if you recognize anybody in there?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I know it is the Carousel. These prints are pretty
small for my eyesight. I have seen him. I don’t know who he is, but I
have seen him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating a fat, obese man?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have seen him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you seen him?
Mr. SENATOR. At the Carousel. I believe these occurred, I think, when
they were having—what do you call that now? I think when they were
giving prizes away, if I am not mistaken, on this particular time, and
then sometimes they would have on Friday or Saturday, Saturday night,
amateur hour.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This would be amateur strippers?
Mr. SENATOR. Once in a while—there was one girl who would always bring
up, after she got through she would always bring up one fellow to do
the twist. Now this wasn’t every night; only this one girl when she was
on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of Jack’s stripteasers?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. As a matter of fact, I think I saw him do the twist
once.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That big, fat man?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. But I can’t see the faces here. But I can’t help but
recognize him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You can’t make out the faces in looking at those
photographs?
Mr. SENATOR. This is an M.C.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating the center photograph at the top?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is an M.C. This looks like Tammi.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tammi True?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The left-hand side in the third photograph?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. As a matter of fact, are they all Tammi’s? Yes; that
is Tammi. This girl is not clear enough for me to see. I am certain I
know her, but I can’t tell which one that is. That is about all I can
see there. The majority are all customers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you do not recognize any of the customers.
Mr. SENATOR. No, because they ain’t looking this way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now let me hand you Exhibit 5303-B and ask you if you
recognize any of the people in those photographs.
Mr. SENATOR. That is Tammi True.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The stripper that is shown in those photographs is Tammi
True?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the customers?
Mr. SENATOR. This you can’t see at all. This you can’t see at all.
I can’t tell from this. This is no way of seeing; this is no way of
seeing. This you can’t see hardly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I hand you Exhibit 5303-C and ask you if you recognize any
of the people in those photographs?
Mr. SENATOR. I know the stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that?
Mr. SENATOR. That is Kathy Kay, but I can’t recognize anybody from the
back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; now, Exhibit 5303-D; do you recognize anybody
in there?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; that is Little Lynn.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The stripper is Little Lynn?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; as I know her. You called her Karen. What is her last
name?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bennett.
Mr. SENATOR. Bennett; yes. I don’t recognize anybody else here though.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Little Lynn before you began to live with
Jack Ruby the last time?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. All I know—see, I didn’t always come
there every night, you know, but I walked in one night and I saw her
there and, of course, I didn’t know who she was. She had already been
there a few days, I think, or something like that, which I didn’t know.
This is the one that, I guess you probably know, that came in with that
gun with no firing pin. I guess you heard about that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was at the trial, was it not?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or one of the hearings.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; she come in with this gun, which I believe didn’t
have a firing pin, and, of course, there was no ammunition, but it was
a blank gun. According to what I have heard around the station there,
that she had switched bags and was in a hurry or something like that,
and she didn’t even know the gun was in there, according to what I have
heard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You haven’t talked to her about it?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no. When that happened, she was being searched just as
you walk into the courtroom, and that is where they got her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, would you look at Exhibit 5303-E and tell me if you
recognize anybody in there?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know the stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that?
Mr. SENATOR. Joy Dale. The people, no. They are all facing the other
way. That is why I can’t recognize anybody.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now look at Exhibit 5303-F and tell me if you recognize
anybody in there?
Mr. SENATOR. This is Kathy Kay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The stripper is Kathy Kay?
Mr. SENATOR. Kathy Kay, and this is Joy on this side.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Joy Dale on the right-hand side, a stripper?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And Kathy Kay on the left?
Mr. SENATOR. This is that big heavy-set fellow which I can tell. I
don’t know his name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The top picture in the center?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. And the cocktail waitress.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is the cocktail waitress?
Mr. SENATOR. Bonnie something. I don’t know her last name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is she shown in the picture in the lower right-hand side?
Mr. SENATOR. Bonnie. I don’t know her last name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t recognize anybody else?
Mr. SENATOR. Let me see. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I hand you Exhibit 5303-G. Do you recognize anybody in
there?
Mr. SENATOR. This is Kathy Kay, the stripper. Excuse me, not Kathy Kay.
This is Tammi True. That is an error. But I can’t see no faces there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5303-H. Other than the strippers,
do you recognize any of the other people in those pictures?
Mr. SENATOR. You don’t want the strippers, right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.
Mr. SENATOR. I am looking for the face here but I can’t see it. This
one I can’t see the face well. Whether I know him or not, I don’t think
so but I just can’t see their face well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now Exhibit 5303-I, other than the stripper and the fat
man who is shown there, do you recognize any of the people?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, Exhibit 5303-J, other than the entertainers, do
you recognize any of the people?
Mr. SENATOR. I can tell that this is Tammi True from the back. No, no,
I don’t. The M.C. I don’t know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is the M.C.?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t even know his name. He was only there a short
while, this particular one here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me give you Exhibit 5303-K.
Mr. SENATOR. Where did you get this good picture?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the people shown there?
Mr. SENATOR. That is the cocktail waitress. I can’t distinguished who
it is. This sort of looks like Jack, but I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are pointing to——
Mr. SENATOR. But I am not sure. I’ll tell you, I am looking at the head
because it is sort of baldish.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the people in the foreground in that picture, you
don’t recognize any of them?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, Exhibit 5303-L. Other than Jack Ruby, do you
recognize anybody in there?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5300-A and ask you if you
recognize any of the people in that picture other than Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. Kathy Kay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the blonde on Jack Ruby’s right, or left as you
look at the picture?
Mr. SENATOR. This is a cocktail waitress. Her name is Alice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The girl on Jack Ruby’s left, Jack’s left but the right
side of the picture?
Mr. SENATOR. Alice, I don’t remember her last name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had Alice worked for Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say on and off for maybe a year and a half or two,
but I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack date Alice?
Mr. SENATOR. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Alice every solicit up at Jack’s apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. I think she came there once for I think it was a job
interference. I think for some reason, I don’t know what it was because
I didn’t stay, but she was there once. She came there one afternoon. I
don’t know what happened.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5301-D. Do you recognize any of
the girls in that picture?
Mr. SENATOR. This is Joy Dale on the left and this is Little Lynn.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the right?
Mr. SENATOR. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on the right of the picture as you look at the
picture?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes: Little Lynn on the right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am going to do, Mr. Senator, I am going to hand you
a set of photographs, 5306-A and 5306-B. These photographs are pictures
of memoranda that were made at one time or another. Let me ask you to
look at those. First, I will ask you a general question about these
memoranda.
Do you ever recall Jack Ruby having any memoranda pads similar to those
that are shown in those photographs?
Mr. SENATOR. No; with him, everything went on a piece of paper, it
don’t matter what type it was. He would keep his papers and notes,
everything else like he kept his money, all over.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep some of his papers and notes at home?
Mr. SENATOR. It could be at the office or at home because he wasn’t
immaculate in where he kept things, things of that nature there. It
would lay here, lay there, lay in the office, wherever it laid. That is
the way he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any memoranda pads such as this?
Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. I can’t say yes or no, but not to my
knowledge that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to take messages for him at home?
Mr. SENATOR. Very seldom if the phone rang and all I would do is
write it on whatever piece of paper it might be. No particular paper,
sometimes even on a newspaper, whatever it was, whatever is close by.
I have seen those go on pieces of paper this big even, you know. It is
just no particular type piece of paper with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Nancy Barker might have been?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it could have been maybe somebody calling for a job. I
don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Joyce Harvey was?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who Linda Bumwalt was?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Emma Ship?
Mr. SENATOR. No; the only thing possibly could happen, I may know
somebody by face maybe but not by name. This could be. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Jean Bordon?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Archie Esquavill? Did you ever hear of him?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of a person named T. E. Smith?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I am going to hand you a series of photographs which
are marked Exhibits 5305-A to 5305-S. These are photographs of a
notebook which had a cover which said “Aladdin,” and I ask you first of
all if you have ever seen this Aladdin notebook?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I have. I mean, his things that he kept in
his pocket, I assume that is it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you look through those photographs and look through
all of them, and I am going to ask you a general question whether you
recognize that notebook?
Mr. SENATOR. So far this stuff I have never seen, though I do know he
had books, you know, notebooks, but I have never seen the insides of
them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to read what is on those pages?
Mr. SENATOR. Some yes and some no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will ask you the question again: Do you ever recall
having seen this particular notebook?
Mr. SENATOR. I know he had a book. Now, I don’t know about the cover,
but I know he had a book. As a matter of fact, I think he had two or
three of them. But I am not sure of the cover part of it, but I do know
that he had a notebook of some sort.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you Exhibit 5305-B, which purports to
be a photograph of a page of that notebook. Can you read the names on
there?
Mr. SENATOR. Leonard, isn’t that right? That is Leonard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I just want to know if you have difficulty reading them.
Mr. SENATOR. Frank Barber.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you do have some difficulty reading the names.
Mr. SENATOR. Frank Bourber or Barber.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me read the names to you and ask you if you recognize
any of them.
Mr. HUBERT. May I make this suggestion?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. SENATOR. I know some of the names on there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting on that page?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize Jack Ruby’s handwriting?
Mr. SENATOR. It probably could be Jack’s, I guess.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But would you recognize Jack’s handwriting?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think, offhand, I would, but I assume these
probably are Jack’s handwritings, I guess.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, did you know Frank Barber?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack speak or did you know Milt Jaffe?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know of any friend Jack had named Barney?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Pauline?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Pauline Hall?
Mr. SENATOR. Now, you may ask me some names. I may know the face but I
may not recognize the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any people that worked at the Vegas Club?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, Pauline Hall; yes, I do. I am glad you mentioned that.
Pauline worked at times at the Vegas Club, if that is her last name.
I am not sure. Now, I know her first name was Pauline, so it might be
Pauline Hall, if that is her last name, but she worked at the Vegas
Club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say she worked there at times?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; not steady. I wouldn’t say she worked there steady.
There were times I walked in there with Jack at night on a weekend I
have seen her working, and then there are other times I haven’t seen
her working.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Billy Brook?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bobbie Patterson?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I have heard of that name, but I can’t think who
it is. I think I have heard of that name. I think I have heard of that
name Bobbie Patterson, but I can’t refresh my mind. It seems I have
heard that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Howard Foster?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sammy Tucker?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Would it be easier, you know, what you want to do,
would it be easier if I could pick up the ones I knew?
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you could read them. Could you go through there and
pick out the ones you know, and indicate to me if there are any on
there you can’t read.
Mr. SENATOR. What is this? Is this Goody?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Grady to me, but I am not sure.
Mr. SENATOR. Fred Fillman, I don’t know who he is. You want me to sound
out the names, don’t you?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Just comment on the ones you recognize.
Mr. SENATOR. What does this say? It looks like Rita.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Ruth Shay.
Mr. HUBERT. You had better make reference to the document you are
talking about. Let the record show the comments of the witness are with
reference to Exhibit 5305-F.
Mr. SENATOR. Here is one that says Pauline. That may be Pauline Hall, I
don’t know. I have heard that name. I don’t know who she is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What name are you talking about?
Mr. SENATOR. Tex DeLacy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Take a look at 5305-G and tell me if you recognize the
name R. T. Brown on there.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you 5305-H.
Mr. SENATOR. There is no other names on there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. 5305-H, do you recognize any of the names
on there?
Mr. SENATOR. What is that, Joseph Rossi?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him. The rest are just figurations here,
numbers or moneys.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Take a look at 5305-I. There is the name Tom Palmer.
Mr. SENATOR. Tom Palmer, I think he is the booking agent in Dallas. In
other words, he books. Not the booking agent. I have got to find out
how to classify him now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what he does.
Mr. SENATOR. He is with, I think he is with AGVA.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is the American Guild of Variety Artists?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I believe he has an office in Dallas. Let me see how
he is classified. How do you classify him? I guess he has something to
do with the acts, you know, the working hours, and the pay.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of the entertainers?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you met Tom Palmer?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you met him?
Mr. SENATOR. I have seen him in the Carousel, or occasionally on the
street, or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many different occasions would you say you have
met him?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I have seen him maybe a dozen times or so, maybe more.
I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you first meet him through Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; because when he came up there, he always went to
Jack, you know. I mean, he had no occasion to come to me or anything of
that nature, but he always came to Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any particular dealings Jack had with him
in the few weeks before Oswald was shot?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit 5305-J, and I will ask you if you
recognize any of the names on there.
Mr. SENATOR. What is this, Grace Wilkins, the first one? Is that what
that says? I don’t know her, but is that what it says?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Grace Wilkins; yes. Do you recognize that
name?
Mr. SENATOR. No. And Woodruff, I don’t know who that is. But, mind you,
I want you to bear in mind I may know these people and don’t know the
names. I may know them if I see their face.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. J. B. Gruber, I don’t know who he is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will hand you Exhibit 5305-K and ask you if you
recognize any of the names on there.
Mr. SENATOR. KLIF radio station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. KLIF?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I have heard of the name Harrigan. I don’t know if
Harrigan is KLIF, I am not sure. It says diskjockey. I knew he was
something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you met him?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I have ever met him, but I have heard of
that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk to you about him?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how I heard of it. Very possibly he may have,
but I have heard the name. I know I have heard the name before. I don’t
know who this other is. I believe it says Chuck Dunnaway.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I am not familiar with these. I am not familiar with
these.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Alex Gruber?
Mr. SENATOR. No. As I say, I may know him by face, but I am not
familiar with the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you Exhibit 5305-M and ask you if you
recognize the names on there. I might state for the record that 5305-L
is a duplicate of 5305-K, and that is why I didn’t hand it to the
witness.
Mr. SENATOR. Here it says Nick Turman. The reason I say that, I happen
to know somebody by the name of Buddy Turman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Buddy Turman?
Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Turman, I believe, is out on the West Coast. He used
to be the light heavyweight or heavyweight champion of Texas, a real
fine fellow. That is why I say I don’t know Nick.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was he a friend of Jack’s?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he was of Jack’s sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet Turman through Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Through Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if I met Turman through Jack. No, I met him
some other place. I met him some other place. I can’t think where I met
him, but I didn’t meet him through Jack, but I have seen him at Jack’s
place. As a matter of fact, he has helped Jack every now and then. This
Nick Turman, I don’t know if this is related to him or what it is. I am
not familiar with the name Nick. You have got a Norma here, and I know
a name Norma, and I can’t place it; I wonder if this is somebody who
ever worked for him, Norma.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Buddy Turman have any particular dealings, that you
know of, with Jack Ruby in the last month or so before——
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, Buddy has been gone quite a while. He went to the West
Coast. As a matter of fact, the last time I saw Buddy he said he was
going to the West Coast to train, because from there—now I don’t know
if it ever materialized—from there he was going to England to fight. I
can’t think of that heavyweight fighter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bruce Wilcox?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Name a couple more. This one fighter didn’t fight too
long ago. You may have seen him on TV. He is the type that fights very
awkward, and sort of a slap, like. Do you remember who that is?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No, I don’t. Now, did Jack Ruby have an interest in
prizefighting?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I would say that he liked the fights. He liked to
watch them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But he never expressed any particular interest to you?
Mr. SENATOR. No, but he liked to watch the fights.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever tell you about any interest he had in the
fight game when he was a younger man?
Mr. SENATOR. I know that he used to carry Barney Ross’ bag around. How
young he was or what age, in Chicago, I don’t remember. But I know it
was as a youngster.
I assume this first name, Tammi, is Tammi True, and I assume the other
one is Little Lynn; right? These are only first names. This says Tammi,
so I assume that must be Tammi True, and Lynn, that might be Little
Lynn.
Wait; I haven’t gone through the rest. There is a Dick Lenard there,
and I think this man is a booking agency. I think he is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For entertainers?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, if it is the same Dick Lenard. I don’t know the rest
of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will hand you what has been marked as Exhibit 5305-N,
and ask you to look at the names on there and tell us if you recognize
any of them.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this is a Murray Wynn, who owns, I assume, because it
says The Smoker’s Lounge, and I know the place, but I never knew his
last name. I assume it is the right one. He owns a tobacco and pipe
store.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What dealings did Jack have with him?
Mr. SENATOR. None that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack didn’t smoke, did he?
Mr. SENATOR. No. He probably just met him like he meets a lot of
people, I assume. I have heard of this Grant Koch. I have heard of the
name, but I don’t know who he is. It is a name I remember hearing at
one time or another; and I don’t know who this Kierney Aikens is. I
don’t know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A-i-k-e-n-s?
Mr. SENATOR. A-i-k-e-n. I don’t who he is. What does this say here?
This is pretty hard to read. Do you see this one right here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like Donald Wiley. Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will read you the other names on here. Pauline Foch.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Etheridge?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ray Hawkins?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sue Blake?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not going to hand you the next exhibit, which is
5305-O, because there are no names written on there of any persons. And
I am not going to hand you Exhibit 5305-P. I will take that back. I
will hand you that. There is a name “Bishop” written there. Does that
name mean anything to you?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I have heard of the name, but I don’t know who it
is. I don’t know what that is. I believe I have somewheres heard of
that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I am going to read to you from Exhibit 5305-Q, and
tell me if you recognize any of these names. Monte?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Shore?
Mr. SENATOR. Mike Shore? Is there an address or something that goes
with it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dr. Uhlevitch?
Mr. SENATOR. Does it say what he is?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No.
Mr. SENATOR. Is he local, Dallas?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I presume so.
Mr. SENATOR. What is the exchange?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It doesn’t give an exchange, just the name.
Mr. SENATOR. Uhlevitch?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Stanley Kaufman?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he is a lawyer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you met him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never met him, but I know who he is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you talked to Jack about him or has Jack talked to
you about him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he is, I believe, a civil attorney, and I know that
Jack has always called him for conferences of some nature or another,
whatever it may be, but I wasn’t——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a personal friend of Jack’s?
Mr. SENATOR. I assume that he has known Jack for some time. Now, how
personal, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea whether Jack was as close to Kaufman
as you were to Jim Martin, for example?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know, but I know that—as a matter of fact, even
now during the trial, trying to get the new trial now, I know that they
keep in contact with Kaufman. So I don’t know what you want to actually
call close, you know. I can’t tell you what close is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about John Hilt?
Mr. SENATOR. I never heard of that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dick Shepard?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know that, either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Abe Klinman?
Mr. SENATOR. Abe Klinman is a CPA. I know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he do work for Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. He has done some work for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jerry Wilson?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mike Riaf?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tom Palmer’s name is on here, but you have talked about
that.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ed Pullman?
Mr. SENATOR. Ed Pullman; yes. Ed Pullman; his wife had worked for Jack
for a short spell as a cocktail waitress. She is an elderly woman. Ed
Pullman, he is a man who thinks up gadgets, you know. I don’t know how
to describe it. He is an idea man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A promoter?
Mr. SENATOR. Things that he makes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. An inventor?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; in that classification.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack have any business dealings with Ed Pullman?
Mr. SENATOR. The only thing is—no; no business dealings. The only thing
is he had a show once, Ed Pullman, like a market show—you know what I
mean, sort of an exhibit like where people come to look—exhibits.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of things did he exhibit?
Mr. SENATOR. Things that he had made, to show and see what he could do
with them. In other words, he wasn’t manufacturing them, but he had
already made these things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was he exhibiting these items?
Mr. SENATOR. At a place called Market Hall.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ed Pullman——
Mr. SENATOR. Ed Pullman exhibited a thing for him that Jack was trying
to promote.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was that?
Mr. SENATOR. This is what they call—what do they call the little thing?
It is a little twistaboard. It is a little square twistaboard, and you
get on it and it moves around like this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is a weight reducer, like?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; a twister.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how long had Jack Ruby been promoting this twistboard?
Mr. SENATOR. It never came to the promotion part. I would assume that
he fooled around with it for about a month, I guess, something like
that, as a rough guess. In other words, he was going to buy them. I
think somebody was going to make them for him, and he was going to try
and sell them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And for a month, what would this month cover, from the
1st of November to the time that he shot Oswald, or before the 1st of
November?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it was either September or October, somewheres in
there. I will have to take it to the extension of these 2 months.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it fall through somewhere along the line? Did he lose
interest in it, or something?
Mr. SENATOR. It never materialized. In other words, look, he had
competition because there was one already out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who designed this twistboard?
Mr. SENATOR. I think it was manufactured by somebody in, I don’t know
the name of the place, in Fort Worth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was associated with Jack in the twistboard
project?
Mr. SENATOR. Nobody. This is something that never really got off the
ground. See, I think Jack had—what was it—maybe four or five or six
dozen of the things. I just don’t remember. But it never got off the
ground.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He bought these, and then what was he going to do with
them?
Mr. SENATOR. He was going to have them manufactured to resell.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he buy them from some place other than Fort Worth, or
from Fort Worth?
Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure whether he bought them from Fort Worth or
some place else. I don’t know just where he got them from.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of material were they made out of?
Mr. SENATOR. It was a compressed—I don’t know what you would call it—it
was a compressed thing. In other words, let me say that it was about
this size here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating about a foot long?
Mr. SENATOR. Approximately about a foot square.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A foot square?
Mr. SENATOR. Approximately about a foot square, and on the bottom of
it—this is a compressed thing. I don’t know if you call it a compressed
board, or what you call it. There was a compression. Then on the bottom
of it it had, I believe, a steel roller with ballbearings in it, on the
bottom, so the thing could revolve. Under that was another piece of
staple, where it was staple. In other words, it had to hold the weight
of an individual.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was something that you would lean up against?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no. It was on the floor, and you just got on it like
that, and you go—I am not a good exhibit for a twister.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, you would stand on this board?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, you would stand on it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You wouldn’t put it up against your back, or anything?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You would stand on it?
Mr. SENATOR. Strictly stand on it, and it was a novelty.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the bottom part would remain stationary?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the other part would swivel as you moved on it?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right. In other words, instead of going in the
twist, this thing did it for you. In other words, you revolved and,
of course, this was classified as an exerciser, or something of that
nature. As I say, it never got off the ground.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge, nobody else was involved in the
promotion of it with Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. No; definitely not; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about John Newman? Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. John Newman works for the Herald or the Times, the Herald
or the News. He works for either the Dallas Morning News—I forgot
now—or the Herald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know him?
Mr. SENATOR. I met him on occasion when Jack used to go up there to
place an ad once in a while, when I was living with him in 1962, you
know, I went up there with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Newman at the Carousel Club?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if I have or not. I just don’t remember. I
couldn’t say yes or couldn’t say no. I just don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to read to you the names that are on Exhibit
5305-R. Bill Petty. Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I have heard of that name, but don’t know who it
is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bill Cantrell?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Gladys?
Mr. SENATOR. Gladys who?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all it says.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. J. B. Herred?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Oscar Newman?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to read to you the names that are on Exhibit
5305-S. Gloria Rettig?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Little Lynn you have mentioned.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Vicky Williams?
Mr. SENATOR. Vicky Williams; I don’t know that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That concludes the photographs that pertain to the
Aladdin notebook. I am going to hand you what has been marked for
identification as Exhibit 5309-A, and this is a Xeroxed copy of another
notebook that has on the front cover, “This is a Robinson reminder. Jot
it down. Do It. Tear it. Live notes only.”
I am going to hand you this and ask you to tell me, first of all, go
through it and tell me if you remember ever seeing that notebook.
Mr. SENATOR. I think I have seen the cover of this. These are little
tear things out, aren’t they, you tear them out?
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to what appears to be perforated
segments.
Mr. SENATOR. Isn’t that what it is? That is what it looks like.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the front page. I believe that is right.
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard of the name Sue Pepper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are looking at the first page of that notebook?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you are going to identify the names?
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard of the name. I don’t know who it is. A lot of
the names I heard, but I just don’t know who they are. Does this say
Jack Hanover? This is a little hard to read.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yanover, I think.
Mr. SENATOR. Carroll Walker I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know a Jack Hanover?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I don’t know the balance of these in here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting on that page?
Mr. SENATOR. I think it is Jack’s. I assume it is. I am not sure, but
I assume it is. It all looks like the same. I have seen the cover of a
book like this. Now, the insides of it I have never seen, but I think I
have seen it on him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are turning to the next page. Does that have a
small numeral down at the bottom of that page? It has numeral 3. It is
actually the second page on which there is any writing.
Mr. SENATOR. Wally what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Rack—R-a-c-k? Do you know a Wally Rack?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anything about the Doctors Club?
Mr. SENATOR. The Doctors Club?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I never knew there was a Doctors Club in Dallas. What is
Linda’s last name?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like——
Mr. SENATOR. Kuhox?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Kuhox.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does anything like that ring a bell?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I don’t know anybody here. He has some first names
here. I don’t know what they mean. Brenda and Angie.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of those first names?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s turn to the page that is numbered 4.
Mr. SENATOR. I know Bill Willis. Bill Willis was the drummer in the
band at the Carousel Club. Tom Palmer is here again.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You talked about him.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Kathy Kay is a stripper. Andy is the boy. I assume
that is Andy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Andy Armstrong?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I assume the first name Kathy is Kathy Kay; right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know.
Mr. SENATOR. That is what I think it is anyhow. I don’t know. This
girl, I never knew her last name, but this could have been a former
stripper of some time back, this Lauri.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Lauri?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Lauri have a last name?
Mr. SENATOR. There is a last name here, but I don’t know who.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the last name?
Mr. SENATOR. Womack, W-o-m-a-c-k. I knew a Lauri, I think, that was a
stripper for him for a while. I think it was last summer if I am not
mistaken, or something like that. Russ Knight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. K-n-i-g-h-t?
Mr. SENATOR. He is with a radio station, but I can’t think which one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you met him?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I knew Russ.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you met him?
Mr. SENATOR. I have met him—I have seen him at the bowling alley when
we used to go up there at night. I have seen him on rare occasions when
he would come down to the Carousel. He was, I guess you would call him,
a disc jockey.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you bowl with?
Mr. SENATOR. Sometimes people—very seldom, mind you, very seldom—but
sometimes people from the club which was very seldom. As a matter of
fact, I only bowled one time, I believe. It wears me out particularly.
But very seldom.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack bowl frequently?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he bowl more than you did?
Mr. SENATOR. Maybe a little more. I’ll tell you, this particular alley
is a tremendous place in Dallas, but we always went up there to eat, on
occasions, when we did go. It was always we would go up there to eat.
They had a big restaurant there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What eating places did Jack frequent?
Mr. SENATOR. A lot of times when he went out, the majority of the times
when he went out I wasn’t with him when he went out to eat. But he has
been to—of course, it probably pertains to the time of day or night,
you know, but he ate in the waffle shops, he ate at—wait; it will
come to me in a minute. There is a couple on Commerce just above the
Adolphus Hotel. What in the world is the name of it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Egyptian Lounge?
Mr. SENATOR. He has ate at the Egyptian Lounge, but there is a couple
in the downtown area.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That he ate at regularly, I take it?
Mr. SENATOR. It is not, particularly. I can’t say regularly. I don’t
know. Let me say he just varies the place. He may want to try certain
foods, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack visit the Dallas Cabana?
Mr. SENATOR. Dallas Cabana? What in the world is the Dallas Cabana?
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Cabana Motel.
Mr. SENATOR. The Cabana?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; Jack has been down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he have friends there?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he has friends there or not. He certainly
probably does know some people there. Yes; there is one chap he knew
there that I know for sure, and I think he was the assistant, if he is
still there, was the assistant manager. There is Ralph Paul. Of course,
I am certain you have heard of his name before, Ralph Paul.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; Ralph we talked about earlier. How often would Jack
see Ralph?
Mr. SENATOR. Ralph would come up, I would probably say he would
probably come up maybe two or three times a week, about like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would they telephone each other during the week also?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say they have. I mean, not that I was
always around when he did, if he did telephone him, but I am certain
there were telephone calls.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have any occasion to telephone Ralph Paul?
Mr. SENATOR. Did I ever have occasion?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I called him, yes; I called him a couple of times. The
reason I called him, I had no car, I had to go down and see him once in
a while, a free lunch. He has got this place in Arlington, if you know
where Arlington is, called the Bullpen. It is one of these barbecue
places.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to Ralph Paul on the weekend of the 22d, 23d,
and 24th of November?
Mr. SENATOR. By phone?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about in person?
Mr. SENATOR. It may have been possible that I may have seen him. I just
don’t recall if I have seen him on that weekend. I can’t say yes or no,
but it may have been possible that I may have seen him at the club. Oh,
no; the club wasn’t even open.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was after the President was killed?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; no, I don’t think I did. I don’t think I have seen
him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You seem to have some recollection, though, that you might
have.
Mr. SENATOR. No; let’s see. No; I saw him, I think the first time I saw
him was, it may have been, I would say within the week. I can’t name a
date or a day. But I will say within the week after the Ruby shooting
up at the Carousel. That is about the best that I can recollect on that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall talking to Little Lynn at any time on
Friday, Saturday, or Sunday, November 22, 23, or 24?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t even see her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know her husband?
Mr. SENATOR. No; but I have seen him—if it is her husband—sort of a
blond. I will tell you where I have seen him. I saw him the day of that
trial when she was carrying that gun, he come up with her, if it is her
husband or if it is her boy friend, I don’t know what.
The reason I say that, because to the best of my knowledge I don’t
even know if she wore a marriage band. But I have seen him. I think he
is sort of a blondish-haired fellow. I don’t even know his name. I am
through with this. Do you want the next page, page 6?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; go ahead.
Mr. SENATOR. There is a Joe Slayton here. Of course, Joe Slayton—this
Joe Slayton, I know him by sight but I don’t know him by conversation.
Wally Weston, he was an MC of his. I know this guy only by reading
about him, Earl Wilson, the New York Post. I don’t know him. I believe
this Tony Turner here, this name is a stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. T-o-n-i?
Mr. SENATOR. T-o-n-y it says here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You think that is a stripper?
Mr. SENATOR. Tony Turner is T-o-n-i. I think that is how she spells her
name. This says Tony, T-o-n-y, Turner. It could be a man. I don’t know.
I am only guessing at this one here. Tammi True. I know her. This is a
stripper. Then there is Kay here. I don’t know if that is Kathy Kay,
or what it is. That is all I know on this one. One here says Porter.
I don’t know what that is. I don’t know what that means, if that is a
porter, or what it is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know, either. How about page 7? Let me just read
off the names and see if you recognize them. Phil Olian?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Wendy Knight?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Wanda?
Mr. SENATOR. Just a girl’s name?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I think, I am not sure now; I think he had a cocktail
waitress by the name of Wanda, if I am not mistaken, at one time. I am
not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Janice Anderson
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ann Petta?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. L. H. McIntyre?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jim Brown?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Carlos Camorgo?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know of any acquaintances Jack had in Mexico City?
Mr. SENATOR. Where?
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Mexico City. Did you know of any acquaintances he had
in Mexico City?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any trips that Jack took?
Mr. SENATOR. To Mexico City?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Not while I knew him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any foreign trips that he has taken?
Mr. SENATOR. No, but I have heard at some time that he went to Cuba.
Now, that is before my relation with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear this from Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I have heard it, I don’t know if I read it in the
newspapers or where I read it, but I know I heard it at one time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk to you about Cuba at all?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about someone named Billie?
Mr. SENATOR. B-i-l-l-i-e?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Is that a man or a woman?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know.
Mr. SENATOR. Is there a telephone number?
Mr. GRIFFIN. FE 9-7914? Toni Rebel?
Mr. SENATOR. I think that is a stripper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bill Towney? Bill Towney, WH 2-8129?
Mr. SENATOR. Bill Towney?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Shirley Nole?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Margo?
Mr. SENATOR. Let me place this Margo. This is a cocktail waitress that
he had, if it is here. It is a cocktail waitress that he had at one
time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Kitty Keel?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mary Martin?
Mr. SENATOR. It sounds like the one from Hollywood. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ethel A. Piersol?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Gail Thompson?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sam George?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Margie?
Mr. SENATOR. Margie was a cocktail waitress that he had, if it is the
same one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Peggy Steel?
Mr. SENATOR. Peggy Steel was a stripper that he had at one time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. John M. Crawford?
Mr. SENATOR. Don’t know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This man has an address, Huntsville State Penitentiary.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of any friends Jack had there?
Mr. SENATOR. No, and I don’t want to hear of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Linda?
Mr. SENATOR. I think Linda could have been a cocktail waitress.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Avrum?
Mr. SENATOR. Never heard of that name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sherry?
Mr. SENATOR. I am trying to figure if Sherry was a stripper. I am not
sure. I can’t make it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Henry Segel? This man is from Chicago.
Mr. SENATOR. I wouldn’t know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Roy Pike?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mickey Ryan?
Mr. SENATOR. Mickey Ryan, I know Mickey Ryan. Of course, Mickey Ryan
lives in California. He is in California. Mickey Ryan used to sell
cars, and he worked, the last job I think he worked at, he worked at a
club for a while.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, a private club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say he is in California or from California?
Mr. SENATOR. From California, and back there. He is back in California.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But he was in Dallas at the time that the President was
shot?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he was, before or after. No, I don’t
really know. He may have been, now. I think he was after.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to return to California?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. He said he was going back to California. I
met him one day, and he said he was going back to California. Now, why,
I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you meet him before you went to New York to live with
your sister?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure; yes. I never same him after I come back. I
saw him last year. It could have been, it may have been November or
December. I think it may have been December.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So some time after——
Mr. SENATOR. I think the last time I saw him was after the incident, if
I remember right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And at that time, and this was before you left New York to
live with your sister?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or left Dallas to live with your sister?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I think it was in December the last time I saw him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He told you at that time he was moving to California?
Mr. SENATOR. He said he was going back to California.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you why?
Mr. SENATOR. No; no particular reason why.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what acquaintanceship or relationship he had
with Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. As a friend.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have any business dealings?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever work for Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. He may have helped him a little bit. Now, I am not sure.
I think he helped him for a very short while in the Carousel, if I
remember, but it was a very short while. Now, how long it was, I don’t
know. It was just a short while, though, I think he helped him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Lisa Starling?
Mr. SENATOR. I knew a girl by the name of Lisa, and I can’t place it. I
am not familiar with the last name. I am trying to figure who, a Lisa I
knew. Now, I knew a Lisa Lynn. Lisa Land I think it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But Gail Hall, Monroe, La.?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever talk about any friends he had in Louisiana?
Mr. SENATOR. Gail Hall?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Is there a city?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Monroe, La.
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard him mention Monroe, La.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In what connection have you heard him mention Monroe?
Mr. SENATOR. I think he met a girl once in Dallas that came from
Monroe. Now, if this is the girl or not, I am not sure. I think he met
a girl. I am not sure if he met her at the club, or where it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What about H. G. Tiger?
Mr. SENATOR. Tiger?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. E. Fletcher, F-l-e-t-c-h-e-r?
Mr. SENATOR. E. Fletcher?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Is there an address or something?
Mr. GRIFFIN. 40 Central Park, something or other.
Mr. SENATOR. 40 Central Park?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Central Park, and I don’t know what.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. There is a fellow I knew by the name of
Ernie Fletcher. I don’t know E. Fletcher.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that a friend of Jack Ruby? Does he know Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I mean, I have never seen him with Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know him in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. I knew him in Dallas, yes. I have seen him in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do?
Mr. SENATOR. I haven’t seen him in a long, long time, because the last
I heard, I think he was living in New York.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do?
Mr. SENATOR. I never knew what he did. He was a promoter, but what, I
don’t know. I think he was an oil promoter or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Darrell Williams?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, on page 9 of this particular notebook that we have
been looking at, there is the name Vivian, Statler Barbershop.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; there is a manicurist there by the name of Vivian.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack frequent the Statler Barbershop?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. The barbershop he frequented the most was a
place in another section of town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?
Mr. SENATOR. Loma Alto.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It may have been called the Loma Alto?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; it is two words, the Loma Alto section.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What general part of Dallas is that, northeast, southwest,
Love Field?
Mr. SENATOR. Let me say it was on the way up to that way, Love Field.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Towards Love Field from downtown Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. From downtown. I tell you, the best way I can describe it
to you is it ran off of—I have got a good memory, haven’t I? You are
writing that down, too? I can’t think of the name of the street. I’ll
tell you why he went to this barbershop, which I never knew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. SENATOR. When the barber cuts his hair, he doesn’t like clippers.
He won’t let them use a clipper. He wants everything by hand, and he
could probably drive a barber crazy the way he wants his hair cut. To
my knowledge, I don’t think he lets a barber shave. You know how the
barber shaves you back here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. He won’t let him shave the back of his neck?
Mr. SENATOR. You know why? I’ll tell you why. Because he grows hair too
fast.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is what Jack told you, that your hair grows too fast
when it is shaved off?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; you know how some of the hairs will grow in the rear
of a person, like mine, I have got a few, the barber will shave them
off. He wants them clipped off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So he requires the back of his neck to be clipped rather
than shaved?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now, he has got a barber, he has got this barber who
knows just what to do with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack concerned about baldness?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, you should only know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us.
Mr. SENATOR. He used to drive me crazy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that.
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he would have these treatments. I don’t know the
name of the place where he got these treatments, and he had the stuff,
you know, they’d rub into his head, whatever this medication. I don’t
know what the stuff was, you know.
I have always seen him use it, whatever it was, and he would rub it
into his head. He spent 45 minutes under a shower when he was really
working with the stuff, and he would rub it into his head. He was
always combing his hair all the time, what little was left, but he
couldn’t stand being bald.
He used to comment, “How does my hair look; how does my hair look?”.
And it was really funny. I used to laugh, but he would get mad when I
laughed at him. But he was very, very particular about his hair.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he been this way all the time that you knew him, or
was this something that had come on?
Mr. SENATOR. No; this is, of course, as long as, you knew, as long as I
have known him. Actually, I can’t say as long as I have known him, but
as long as I have been around him. Oh, man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he actually had some treatments for his hair, didn’t
he?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure, sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were these called trichology treatments, or something like
that?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know the nature of the word they used.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he go to some practitioner?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who worked on his head?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he went to somebody, he actually went. And I believe
he picked up all his medication from him, too. They came in plastic
tubes, a little vial like. I would probably say these tubes would hold
approximately maybe about half a pint. He had two different types
whatever they were; one was wash and one was rinse, or what it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he would use these on his head?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And was this a daily thing that he did?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any particular ritual, any period of time of
the day that he would do this?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it was just whatever time, not particularly. It could
be in the morning, but I would say it was about every day, once a day
some time, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you told us yesterday, I believe it was, that Jack
would spend 45 minutes in the bathroom, or something like that, he was
very slow getting up in the morning, was this part of the procedure?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if he did it that day or not. I don’t
remember if he did it that way, but I tell you, when he gets in the
bathroom when he is going through the entire ritual, he takes longer
than a woman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Part of this ritual would involve this scalp treatment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Hair treatment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What else was involved in the ritual?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, of course, the door was closed, you know. I am not
actually watching him. Of course, the shave and the shower.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he shower every day?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; sure. I will tell you when he really did his big
cleaning up was at night, before going to work. That was when the big
ritual was, he spent a big time in there. But it was really something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The next one I am going to hand you is Exhibit 5204. This
was used in the deposition of C. L. Crafard. I don’t believe there
are any other marks on here. I am going to ask you to look at this
notebook, or rather, the Xerox pages of a notebook, and ask you, first
of all, generally if you recognize that notebook?
Let me say that the notebook, if you will turn to the first page of
all those papers that are put together, and look at that first page
carefully, you will see that the notebook had written on the cover just
the word “Addresses,” and, of course, we can’t tell from what color the
notebook was or what material it was made out of, how it was bound,
although it appears to be not a looseleaf kind of notebook but one that
was perhaps stitched at the back or something.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever recall anything like that?
Mr. SENATOR. I know he had two or three of those little things. Like I
told you before, I knew he had two or three of them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the handwriting in this particular
notebook?
Mr. SENATOR. I assume it is Jack’s.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t actually recognize it as Jack’s?
Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure, but I assume it is Jack’s. To me they sort
of all look like the same handwriting, so I assume they are his.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, look at the first page that has writing on it, which
actually in this exhibit is numbered page 2, and tell us, do you
recognize any of the names there?
Mr. SENATOR. There is one here, and the reason I recognize this name
here, Patricia Stevens, because Patricia Stevens I think is a modeling
school.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. In Dallas?
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack deal with that modeling school?
Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize that name through any association you
had with Jack Ruby?
Mr. SENATOR. No. That is the only way I would recognize the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any other names on that page?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Turn to the next page, which is page 3, and tell us if you
recognize any of the names there.
Mr. SENATOR. There is a name here I am not sure of, but it says Thelma
Brown. This could be a singer. I am not sure. Or Bertha Brown. I know
there is a girl by the name of Brown who was a colored girl, who was a
singer, and she has come pretty well up the line. Now, if this is the
girl or not, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she sing for Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. A long, long time ago when she was smaller. Now she is
big-time. Now, where she is singing I don’t know. I don’t know if that
is her first name, but I know there was a girl by the name of Brown. I
don’t know if it was Thelma Brown, Bertha Brown, or whatever it is. I
am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any other names on page 3?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Turn to page 4 and tell us if you recognize any of the
names there.
Mr. SENATOR. Ed Bernet. I have heard that name, but I don’t know what
it is. I can’t make out what it is. It sounds like an entertainer, but
I am not sure. The others I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize any other names on that page?
Mr. SENATOR. No. There is only one other name there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Turn to the next page. Is that page 5?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; and I don’t know who that is. It is just one name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What name is that?
Mr. SENATOR. Bill Capehart. I don’t know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to turn to page 6?
Mr. SENATOR. Bob Eisman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know who he is. There is nothing else but the
name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you want to turn to the next page, page 7.
Do you recognize that name, Ham Faust?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 8; do you recognize the name there?
Mr. SENATOR. This boy here, he is resting in peace.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Martin Gimpel?
Mr. SENATOR. He died of a heart attack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he die?
Mr. SENATOR. He died, I would say, I would probably say a year and a
half ago, which tore Jack apart because they were kids together all
their life.
Mr. GRIFFIN. From Chicago?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He has been gone now about a year and a half, maybe 2
years, I am not sure, something like that. Now, the other name I don’t
know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ann Gibson. What was Jack’s relationship in Dallas with
Mr. Gimpel?
Mr. SENATOR. He was a tool salesman. He traveled. He sold tools. Now, I
have never seen him sell them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what kind of tools, household tools or
industrial tools?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I think they were industrial tools. To my knowledge, I
think that is what it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Gimpel have a family in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he single?
Mr. SENATOR. When he came here, he didn’t always stay here. I mean, I
haven’t known him that long, when I met him, but when he was here, I
don’t know how long he stayed. He stayed, and traveled. But in this
area, or rather in the Dallas area, or wherever he was traveling, I
don’t know if it was in the State of Texas or out of it, or just where
he traveled. Of course, he stayed with Jack because he didn’t pay no
rent.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack supported him?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 9.
Mr. SENATOR. There is a name here that I think is an entertainer. I am
not sure, Trinidad, Colo. Wait a minute; that is Trinidad, Colo., but I
knew somebody by the name of Trinidad. There was an entertainer. Cecil
Hamlin.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is he?
Mr. SENATOR. He is with the union. Now, what capacity or what, I don’t
know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which union?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know which union.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he friendly with Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know, because I have only seen the man one time
in my life, and the time that I saw him I was introduced to him, not
knowing who he was, down at the courthouse, at the courthouse.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that at the trial or the bail bond hearing, or
something like that?
Mr. SENATOR. It was at this trial here, in the lobby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Ruby trial?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I saw him in the lobby once. That is the only time I
ever seen the man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you had never seen him before?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I had never seen him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you had never heard Jack speak of him?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I have heard the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How had you heard Jack speak of him?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack has asked me to call him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In what connection?
Mr. SENATOR. There was somebody, there were a couple of people owed
Jack some money, and he asked me to ask Cecil to see if Cecil would
call them to get the money or pick up the money. He had a couple of
hundred dollars out, and he wanted to ask him if he would be kind
enough to collect it for him or try to collect it for him, or call them
up, or something of that nature. I don’t know the rest of them. Page 10.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize any of the names on page 10?
Mr. SENATOR. I think he had a stripper, a part-time stripper, at one
time, I am not sure. Of course, I don’t know if this is, but this says
Grapevine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Grapevine, Tex.?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but I don’t know. A girl by the name of Linda, but I
never knew her last name, so I don’t know if this is her or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 11.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who this is. I have seen this name before on
other pages, Jeanie. I don’t know what that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 12.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 13.
Mr. SENATOR. Latin Band, is that what that says?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It looks like that.
Mr. SENATOR. I am thinking of Larry, the kid who works at the club, but
what would the Latin Band be? I don’t know who that is. I don’t know
who this is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 14.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Page 15.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This doesn’t have a page number.
Mr. SENATOR. This is a repeat of the other.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A duplicate of the previous page?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t say it is a duplicate of the page, but the
name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s read the name so that the record is complete. Pat
Sancipian, Patricia Stevens. Xavier Cugat?
Mr. SENATOR. I know the name. Who don’t know it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack never talked to you about him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; where he got it, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Turning to another page, which doesn’t have a number on
it, Sam Schwartz.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Robyn Hoy Smith, Tom Teel?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And turning to the last page, which is numbered 20, it
simply says Elizabeth. You don’t recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you another book that is marked Exhibit
5202, which was used in the deposition of C. L. Crafard, and it is a
blue spiral notebook with the word “Penway” written on the front. It
is called a “Penway Memo Book.” Look through that.
Mr. SENATOR. Is this Jack Ruby’s book? I can’t picture him writing like
that. This is terrible handwriting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are looking now at the Crafard Exhibit No. 5202. Do
you recognize the handwriting in that book?
Mr. SENATOR. There is only one person who I think possibly could write
like this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is that?
Mr. SENATOR. I would have to guess, and say probably Andrew, maybe. I
am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t recognize it as Jack Ruby’s handwriting?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think it is. I don’t think this is Jack Ruby’s
handwriting. Jack don’t write this bad. This is terrible writing. I
don’t think that is Jack’s handwriting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have had a chance to go through this notebook. You
mentioned, looking at page 1 of Exhibit 5202, in which there is written
some words such as “Save, Vegas Club, Jack’s home,” and so forth. And
there is the name Buddy, with the words “Fort Worth” written after it,
and a telephone number underneath. Do you recognize that?
Mr. SENATOR. This could be probably this guy that he was going to have,
I imagine, I am not sure, probably made those twistboards.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name Buddy?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I have never seen him; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned the name St. Charles.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And St. Charles is written on this first page, with a
telephone number under it. Do you recognize that?
Mr. SENATOR. That probably is his home number.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember St. Charles’ number?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember the number offhand; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby ever have anything to do with Mr. St.
Charles?
Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing whatsoever. He knew him. He used to go through
and buy some medicine, or whatever it might be, a toothbrush, and
things of that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. St. Charles ran a drugstore?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, he has a drugstore in the Statler Hilton Hotel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. St. Charles have any connection with Jack Ruby’s
twistboards?
Mr. SENATOR. No; nothing. Never knew he had a twistboard. I would
venture to say that this book here, this is only one person I think who
has a handwriting like that, that would write this here. This probably,
this could be, though I have never seen this book, the handwriting
looks like Andrew’s, Andrew Armstrong, the colored boy. This is what I
think it is. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. You made the remark that you know
that St. Charles didn’t know anything about the twistboards.
Mr. SENATOR. No; not to my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But have you talked with St. Charles since Ruby shot
Oswald, and have you learned from St. Charles that he was unaware of
the twistboards?
Mr. SENATOR. I have seen St. Charles exactly one time since then.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What prompted you to make the statement that St. Charles
didn’t know anything about the twistboard?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say, to the best of my knowledge, he
didn’t know anything about the twistboard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You would be surprised if he did?
Mr. SENATOR. If he did, I can’t say. It is possible that he did, but I
would say, to the best of my knowledge. I can’t say positively. I don’t
think he did. Now, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Turning over page 1, look at the names there. There are
two names at the bottom of the page. You testified about Abe Klinman.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, the attorney. That is Earl Ruby, and Ed Pullman,
which I mentioned before to you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I can’t even read the first name. It looks like Leona or
Lena.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Leona?
Mr. SENATOR. Miller; is that who it is?
Mr. GRIFFIN. It might be.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know who that is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Clark Dotty?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Turning over to page 2, do you recognize any of the names
on that page?
Mr. SENATOR. This says Mar-Din?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. This is another name, Henry Denture. I wouldn’t know who
that is. Earl Products.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will skip over the back of page 2 because there is
nothing on there that you haven’t talked about. Look at page 3.
Mr. SENATOR. I can’t even understand what that last name is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are referring to the first name on there.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what it is anyhow, but I can’t even read the
last name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize any of those names there?
Mr. SENATOR. No; that is Shay, I believe, isn’t it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, Ruth Shay.
Mr. SENATOR. No. I think we talked about this one before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now on the back of page 3 you have mentioned
Stanley Kaufman.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But there is a Riky Kasada.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Scotty Milles or Mills?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recognize that?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. On page 4, Norma Bennett?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Judy Armstrong?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Burt Nelson?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Floyd Turman you mentioned previously.
Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Turman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the name?
Mr. SENATOR. No; his name is Buddy. Wait; he comes from Tyler, Tex.
Yes, here it is. This says Buddy. I didn’t know him by his first name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Floyd Turman is——
Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Turman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The other Turman we talked about is Nick Turman?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t know who that is. Now, see, he is known
by his fighting name, is Buddy Turman and, of course, that is all I
recall. I never knew it was Floyd, but he is billed, and everything
else, as Buddy Turman.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the back of page 4 there is the name Buddy Heard. Did
you know Buddy Heard?
Mr. SENATOR. Buddy Heard, yes. He is an entertainer who worked for Jack
once, I would probably say about two years ago was the last time he was
in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Has Jack maintained a relationship with him recently?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I would say it was approximately, it must have been
approximately two years ago. He worked for him, I think, one time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say “no” to my question about Jack maintaining a
relationship with him recently?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know of any.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about any of the other names that you see there on the
back of page 4? Do you recognize any of those?
Mr. SENATOR. What does this say? Is this Burt?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Burt. Did you know a Burt?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not going to direct your attention to page 5 because
page 5 doesn’t have anything on it. I believe it has nothing on it that
we haven’t already talked about. The back of page 5 has the name “Jerry
Lindsay”. Do you recognize that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No. Floorman, that is the man that worked on the floor or
did some work for him, or something, but I don’t recognize the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize the name of Leo? Do you know anybody
named Leo?
Mr. SENATOR. Leo Tardi? He worked for Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his name?
Mr. SENATOR. I think it is Tardi. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he work for Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. The last time he worked for Jack, he had worked both
clubs, you know, the Vegas and that one there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of work did he do?
Mr. SENATOR. After the shooting he worked up at the club at nights and,
of course, he was a salesman in the daytime.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But what kind of work?
Mr. SENATOR. He took the tickets in, you know, the $2 admission fees.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he sell during the daytime?
Mr. SENATOR. I think clothing in a store.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what department store he worked for?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or what store?
Mr. SENATOR. No. It was in one of the downtown stores there. I don’t
know which one it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to pass over the front half of page 6 because
there is nothing written on there that appears to be a name, and I will
direct your attention to the back of page 6. Do you recognize any of
the names there?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him, at the radio station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dick Gifford?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recognize anything else on there?
Mr. SENATOR. What is this supposed to say?
Mr. GRIFFIN. S-c-h-r-o-l-l.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now look at the front of page 7. Do you recognize any of
those names?
Mr. SENATOR. This particular Leonard I have mentioned to you before,
the booking agent. The thing is to read these things. Who can read them?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me help you, if I can.
Mr. SENATOR. What does the top one say?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Joe Roskydall.
Mr. SENATOR. Never heard of him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dick Lenard you mentioned. E. J. Evans?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. What is this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. W. E. Groveland?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Stevens Park Beauty Salon?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Maisl Brothers?
Mr. SENATOR. Boy, I tell you, you do all right with them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The back of page 7, I will read these off to you. Ed
McMulmore. Does that mean anything to you?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. McKinney?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. The front of page 8; Leonard Wood?
Mr. SENATOR. Don’t know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Milton Thomas?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Clarence McInnis?
Mr. SENATOR. Don’t know him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. James Dotson?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. James T. Aycox?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Nothing on the back of page 8 or the front of page 9.
Page 9, the back is blank. Page 10 is blank on both sides. Page 11 is
a half sheet which is blank on both sides. Page 12 I won’t direct your
attention to because there are no names on there. The back of page
12, the only name that appears on here is Bill Remike. Does that mean
anything to you?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Here is the name, Bobby Patterson.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On page 13. I will turn over to the back of page 13. There
is the name, Tex Lacy, which we talked about before.
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard about that name, but I don’t know what
capacity Tex Lacy is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I said the back of page 13. Now on page 14, which is
about a third of a sheet of paper, there is the name Frank Fisher. Did
you know Frank Fisher?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Frank Fisher?
Mr. SENATOR. Frank Fisher was a trumpet player and the leader of his
band at one time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of a band?
Mr. SENATOR. In the Carousel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what else did he do besides performance as a musician?
Mr. SENATOR. That is all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he an interior decorator?
Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. If he was, that is news to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk to you or did you know in the week or so
before the President was shot whether Jack was considering opening up
any new night club?
Mr. SENATOR. He had talked about one. I have never seen it. But he was
talking about a location that he had mentioned on McKinney Avenue. I
think this was a house type place and, as far as I know, nothing ever
materialized or whatever it was going to be. This is the only thing I
knew about it. He never took me over there. I have never seen it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How was Jack going to finance it?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. That I didn’t know. Possibly he may have
been looking for a partner. I don’t know, or how or what I don’t know.
You’ve got me there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I won’t mention the back of page 14 because there is
nothing there. Clark Boland, does that mean anything to you?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it seems that is a radio station there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Herman Flowers?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. K. Hamilton. That is the front of page 16.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Miller, Collins Radio?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Cody City Hall; do you now anybody by that name?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jimmie Rhodes, do you know him?
Mr. SENATOR. The name sounds like I heard of it, but I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Wooldridge?
Mr. SENATOR. Never heard of him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Bob Litchfield?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Moddy?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know that either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the back cover is written the name Newton.
Mr. SENATOR. The only name I know of a Newton would be John Newton of
the newspaper. If that is him or not, I don’t know, because this is a
telephone number, I assume, isn’t it, but there is no prefix to it.
Maybe this is it now. I don’t even know if that is him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went out to look at the Earl Warren sign,
“Impeach Earl Warren” sign, on Friday, or was it Saturday morning?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack write anything down?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recall?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. I didn’t see him write anything down. I
can’t quote if he did or didn’t, but I didn’t see him. I will put it
that way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have any newspapers in the car with him?
Mr. SENATOR. That day?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. I really don’t know. I just don’t refresh my mind if he
did have any newspapers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you drive Jack’s car?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he drove it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I suggest now we probably ought to break to two-thirty.
(Whereupon, at 12:50 p.m. the proceeding recessed.)
TESTIMONY OF GEORGE SENATOR RESUMED
The proceeding reconvened at 2:10 p.m.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will repeat what we say at the beginning of each
session. We are taking this deposition under the same conditions that
we started out with, and you are under the same oath that you have been
under at the outset.
Just before we took a break for lunch we had been through a number of
notebooks which had many, many names in them. Let me ask you about some
other names.
Did you know or hear Jack mention a Lawrence Meyers?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This man would have been from Chicago and he would have
been engaged in a sales capacity in sporting goods.
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, wait a minute. You mentioned sporting goods. That’s
right. I met someone up there. As a matter of fact, Jack got a pair of
pushups from him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Barbells?
Mr. SENATOR. If it is Lawrence Meyers. I think that is the name. I am
not sure. Barbells, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you met some man or you heard of some man?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who you think might be Lawrence Meyers?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I know who you mean. When you mentioned sporting
goods, then it——
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know of this man?
Mr. SENATOR. I met him at the Carousel one night when he was in town.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before Oswald was shot would that have been?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I think it was in the summer. I think it was
this past summer. I think it was in the summer of 1963.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been in the month of November of 1963?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I think it was much longer, much before that. Well,
it couldn’t have been that. The reason I say that is because I wasn’t
living with Jack then.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In November of 1963 you were.
Mr. SENATOR. I was living next door to Jack. I wasn’t living with him.
When you mentioned—was it November?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No; because——
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you met this man you were not living with Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I was still living in my same apartment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You met him——
Mr. SENATOR. I think this was some time in the summer, or maybe the
latter part of the summer of 1963.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time did you spend with this man in the Carousel?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, he was up at the Carousel. From there we went out
and had a bite to eat, and that was it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And can you describe him? How old a man was he?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say he was 6 foot tall. I would say he
is around about 6 foot. I don’t remember the color of his eyes, black,
brown, or blue. I don’t remember. Either they are brown or blue. He had
a good healthy build, now, of a normal man of that height.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a man was he?
Mr. SENATOR. I would have to say maybe in the late forties. I am not
sure. I am certain it is in the forties, if anything, you know. It
could jump up a little more. I would probably say he was in the——
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Jack happen to know this fellow?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. That was the one time I saw him in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you learn about him?
Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t learn anything about him. I knew he was selling
these things, sporting goods, I guess, of various natures. As a matter
of fact, I heard him mention once that they had a plant or something
like that in, I think, Bonham, Tex., or a plant or something out there
too, which is maybe about 75 miles from Dallas, or an office there or a
plant or something out there I know. I don’t know what it is. Maybe it
is a manufacturing plant they had there now. That was the only one time
I saw him in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any idea how Jack came to meet this fellow?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I mentioned the name Alex Gruber.
Mr. SENATOR. Who?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Alex Gruber.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were going through the notebooks?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And I believe you indicated you didn’t recognize that name.
Mr. SENATOR. Not the name; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me see if I can put this to you. Did you know of any
friend Jack had in California who might have been at one time a truck
driver?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t. A truck driver?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you remember anybody that Jack was going to send a
dog to in California?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t. I have heard that mentioned before. I have
heard it mentioned. I don’t remember now if I read it in the newspaper
or from mouth to ear or what it was, but I have heard that, that he was
going to send it to somebody in California. Who it was, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about L. J. McWillie?
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard of the name McWillie, but I don’t know him.
Is it McWillie?
Mr. GRIFFIN. M-c-W-i-l-l-i-e.
Mr. SENATOR. All I know is the name McWillie.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you know about that name?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t even know him. Never met him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where have you heard the name?
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard Jack mention the name in the club. He was an
old friend of Jack’s at one time or another. From where, what or how, I
don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any friends of Jack——
Mr. SENATOR. As a matter of fact, I thought McWillie was two names. I
thought his first name was Mac and his last name was Willie. But, of
course, I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any friends of Jack who are in jail
presently, in the penitentiary?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of a friend, a fellow who Jack had a business
association with, who is now in the penitentiary on a sodomy charge?
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard that there is somebody. It might be
Huntsville. It might be. I am not sure. I heard that somebody is down
there. Now who the man is, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack talk about him?
Mr. SENATOR. I have heard it mentioned quite some time ago, but who he
is, I don’t know. I don’t know the man. As a matter of fact I don’t
even know the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you familiar with the name H. L. Hunt?
Mr. SENATOR. I think everybody is. He is one of the very wealthy men.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever mention having met him?
Mr. SENATOR. Not to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You know H. L. Hunt is politically active, he has a radio
program.
Mr. SENATOR. He is in everything. He is in many, many things, I
understand; oh, well, I didn’t know what all his activities are, but
the name is like, when you hear the name, it is like listening to the
name of the President—I mean that well known, I would say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever seen Jack with any literature that was put
out by H. L. Hunt?
Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of offhand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever heard Jack mention Lamar Hunt?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. That is his son, I think. I don’t think
so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you, George, have you ever belonged to any
political organizations?
Mr. SENATOR. Never, never.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t simply mean by that the Democratic Party or the
Republican Party, but any kind of organization which was interested in
some public issue, or something.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your practice with respect to using Jack’s
telephone?
Mr. SENATOR. What was what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Your practice with respect to using Jack Ruby’s telephone
at home. I take it you used it to make local calls.
Mr. SENATOR. Once in a while; yes. I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make long-distance calls, telephone calls, from
Jack’s home?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think I have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. By long distance I mean any toll call, even to Fort Worth.
Mr. SENATOR. Not that I know of. I don’t think I ever have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to call Ralph Paul from Jack’s
telephone?
Mr. SENATOR. I have called him, but I don’t think I have ever called
him from the house that I can remember, mind you. Now I don’t know if
I have ever or not. I can’t quote and say “Yes, I did,” or “Yes, I
didn’t.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to state whether or not on Friday, November
22, you made any long-distance phone calls from Jack’s telephone?
Mr. SENATOR. On November 22?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; Friday, November 22.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. I don’t think I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the next day, on Saturday?
Mr. SENATOR. On Saturday?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make any toll calls on that day?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think so. When I say I don’t think so, I don’t
remember if I did or not, but I don’t think so. I don’t want to say
“No” positively or “Yes” positive, because I am not sure. I just don’t
think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Saturday morning, November 23, do you
remember whether Jack received any telephone calls that morning?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recall, for example, whether Larry Crafard
called that morning?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember if he did or not. As I say, I can’t be
quoted, because I ain’t positive. I can’t say yes or no because I don’t
remember on that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first become aware that Larry Crafard was no
longer in Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. The following Tuesday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you find out about that?
Mr. SENATOR. When I went up there I asked Andrew one night, and I
happened to remember that it was Tuesday, one of the things I do
remember, and I said to Andrew, I said, “Andrew, where is Larry?” I
said, “I didn’t see him yesterday either,” or something like that, to
that effect, and he said he had left, and I said, “When did he leave?”
He said he had left Saturday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Andrew know that?
Mr. SENATOR. He said—I think now he said he took $8 from the till,
or something to that effect, and I think he left a note that he was
leaving, something like that. These are not positive words, but I think
this is what he said. Something to that effect. And that is the first
time I ever knew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Andrew have any explanation as to why Larry left?
Mr. SENATOR. No; not that I know of. Incidentally, Andrew was back at
the trial, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Larry?
Mr. SENATOR. I mean Larry, because Andrew lives in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; he was at the trial?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they said he hitchhiked in from Wisconsin or some
place out there. I don’t know where it is. They said he hitchhiked all
the way back for the trial. That is what I heard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to him?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I talked to him when I was sitting on the witness
bench one day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you why he came back to Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. No; but he said, he mentioned that he hitchhiked back, but
he didn’t say why he came back or anything of that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything to you about why he left?
Mr. SENATOR. No: he didn’t. I never asked him. As a matter of fact,
I wanted to ask him, but I didn’t. I couldn’t imagine why he left. I
believe he was on the witness stand. What happened, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You know we were talking about what you did on Saturday.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. During the afternoon.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I have here in front of me a copy of a statement that you
provided the Dallas Police Department. I notice in here that you say
that you left the house around noon on Saturday.
Mr. SENATOR. Something like that; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that you had some things to do. Now try to think back
to when you talked with the police department. What things did you have
to do on Saturday?
Mr. SENATOR. I can’t imagine. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have anything to do in connection with your
business?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t work that day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any shopping to do other than for the
groceries you bought?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I did that. I don’t remember if I did that. I just
wonder if I did the laundry. I normally do the laundry on Saturday or
something. But I don’t even recollect if I did that that day or not.
I don’t remember. I think I saw Jim Martin, but to the best of my
recollection anything I did was only minute, just the passing of an
afternoon, or something like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some recollection of having seen Jim Martin on
Saturday?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I had a cocktail. I am not sure, but I think I had
a cocktail with him, at the Burgundy Room. I think I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that have been in the afternoon?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; because he is around his office between somewhere
between 12 and 1. I mean that is when he will leave, he won’t leave
before that, and if I remember right—I am not sure on that—but if I
remember I think we may have had a cocktail at the Burgundy Room.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you do begin to have some recollection of having
spent some time at the Burgundy Room?
Mr. SENATOR. I know I was there that day, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But I mean Saturday afternoon.
Mr. SENATOR. I think I may have been there for a while, because I know
later on that I met who I mentioned yesterday, Bill Downey, that I was
there, and that we went some other place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Downey before——
Mr. SENATOR. I think I saw Downey the latter part of the afternoon, or
something like that, or the early part of the evening. I don’t know if
I met him in the latter part of the afternoon or when it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you——
Mr. SENATOR. It might have been in the early part of the afternoon. I
am not sure. But I also met him later. It must have been around 8 or
8:30 when we went out together. I was at the Burgundy Room. Then we
went to this other place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is your recollection that you saw Downey then both in
the afternoon and the evening?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I saw him in the afternoon, but the evening for
sure. I think I saw him in the afternoon. I am not sure. I think I made
an appointment to meet him later, and then we would go out for a beer
or two. This is what I think. I think now I am not sure on that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you troubled on Saturday over your having gone with
Jack out to photograph this impeach Earl Warren sign?
Mr. SENATOR. Was I troubled when I went with him?
Mr. GRIFFIN. On Saturday did this trouble you in any way?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean Saturday afternoon?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. You mean did I think about it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I imagine that I would probably say that I had thought
about it; yes. As a matter of fact, I thought about that thing many a
time; I don’t know why; I don’t know why he wanted to go out that night
and take these pictures. He never mentioned why he wanted to see it or
why he wanted to snap the pictures.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t mention this to the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You did mention, however, that you went out with Jack and
had coffee with him that morning?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; at the Southland Hotel.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, this was all in sequence with having gone out
to see that Earl Warren sign?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But what was it that made you omit to tell the police that?
Mr. SENATOR. Nothing particularly. I don’t know why. Just it was a
shaken-up day for me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you worried that this might hurt Jack to talk about
that particular episode?
Mr. SENATOR. No. As a matter of fact, it would do him justice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you feel that way?
Mr. SENATOR. I think if a man is exploring somebody who put out a sign,
whoever it may be, who would want to impeach Earl Warren, our Supreme
Court Justice, or somebody who would put out these whys about the
President the day he is coming here, which weren’t good, the whys, I
would say that this would be in favor of him of wanting to know these
things, why should they be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How would that——
Mr. SENATOR. Why would somebody want to impeach Earl Warren? For what
reason? I don’t know. I mean I don’t have the answer to it. But why
would a sign be put up there? Why did they want to impeach Earl Warren?
Impeach him about what? I have asked myself this many times, but I
don’t know the answer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You see, it seems strange that you should have mentioned
your going to the Southland Hotel and having coffee and that occurred
immediately after you had gone out to see the Earl Warren sign and had
also gone to the post office—then I say I wonder how you could have
forgotten it, once you had your mind on having one to the Southland
Hotel. You know you didn’t go right from your apartment to the
Southland Hotel to have coffee.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I don’t know why. I know I explained that to
Elmer Moore one day, and I said, “Elmer,” or “Mr. Moore,” rather, when
he was questioning me, I said, “Elmer, of course, the first day I had
been shaken up,” and I had mentioned to Mr. Moore when he took my text
of the whole thing how going about the sign, the two signs, how these
had bypassed my mind.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Two signs?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, when I say the signs, the billboard and the
newspaper ad, when they took my statement.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you talked to me on the telephone from New York, I
guess it was on Monday——
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You asked me if I had a copy, or if I had seen the Bernard
Weissman ad.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And I take it that in your mind this is a justification,
this somehow is a justification or some assistance to Jack in his
defense, the fact that he was interested in finding out about that
advertisement and about the sign?
Mr. SENATOR. That’s right. He wanted to know the whys. He wanted to
know why somebody would want to impeach him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is this a thought that has come to you after knowing,
or after having talked with the attorneys and knowing what the strategy
of the trial was going to be?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Talking with people?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or is this something that you felt almost immediately,
that this would be a justification?
Mr. SENATOR. I thought definitely in my own thinking that this was a
justification, because when I was put on the witness stand for the bond
hearing in early, I think it was, December, I am not sure just when
it was, when I was questioned about that by Mr. Alexander, I told him
that if anything this would be helping Jack, in wanting to know why
something of this nature would want to be put out in Dallas. Why did
the Dallas Daily Morning News want to accept an ad like this when the
President was coming into town that day?
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went out with Jack, did Jack tell you at all what
he was going to do with this information that he got?
Mr. SENATOR. No; none whatsoever.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate that he might have been working for a
newspaper?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Trying to do some freelance work for a newspaper?
Mr. SENATOR. No; there wasn’t a thing mentioned. I say when Jack gets
his mind set on something, he wants to know why, the information, the
why.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it that you first learned that Jack had spent
sometime at the police station on Friday night? Did you ever learn it?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean the Friday when he was bringing the sandwiches
and things of that nature there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. When did you first learn about that?
Mr. SENATOR. I think it was after he woke me up that morning. I think
that is when he told me, and I think he mentioned it, yes, and then he
mentioned that he went to the synagogue there Friday and prayed for the
President, and that he saw his sister, and they were both crying, as it
was related to me, over the President.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t tell any of that to the——
Mr. SENATOR. To who?
Mr. GRIFFIN. To the police department when you talked to them on the
24th, did you?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. See, you must understand——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you take a look—well, go ahead.
Mr. SENATOR. You must understand when a person is grabbed the way I
was grabbed, or I will say not particularly me, but any human being,
wouldn’t it shake a human being up?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it the police department asked you to tell them
everything you knew about what Jack had done.
Mr. SENATOR. Let me say in the condition that I was in, I was pretty
well shaken up at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you feel that his being at the police department might
hurt him?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I didn’t think about that. That didn’t even
enter my mind whether it did or not. All I know is he said he took
sandwiches over there, and that is all I know on that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you also——
Mr. SENATOR. Now why he took it over there, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You also didn’t mention——
Mr. SENATOR. Maybe I forgot a lot of things at that particular time,
being shook up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You also didn’t mention in this statement that you gave
the police department on the 24th——
Mr. SENATOR. Didn’t what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the statement that you gave to the police department on
the 24th.
Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t mention what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. You did not mention anything about the telephone call from
Little Lynn.
Mr. SENATOR. Maybe I forgot that, too. Look, I told you. I was in a
shookup state that first day. Maybe I did forget about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am just wondering if these things, if you thought in
your own mind that those events which you omitted——
Mr. SENATOR. Was I trying to hide something?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, could hurt Jack, and you wanted to help Jack.
Mr. SENATOR. I wasn’t trying to hide anything. I definitely was not
trying to hide anything. But you must understand, like I repeated,
any individual in an event like this, now I can’t speak for anybody
else, but I would probably say they would be shaken up like I was, and
I want you to know that I was really shook up, that that would make
a lot of people forget a lot of things, and probably can’t remember
things, being grabbed that fast and being talked to that fast in that
instantaneous—I was pretty well shaken up that day, very good.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you did remember Jack talking about the President and
you mentioned you remembered that you thought you saw tears in his
eyes, and you remember his saying he was going to take his dog Sheba
down to the club. I am just wondering why it is you remembered some
of these things, but you didn’t remember some other things which were
just, perhaps should have been just as graphic, like going out to that
impeach Earl Warren sign—that must have just stood out as a sore thumb
to you.
Mr. SENATOR. There was no particular reason. Now maybe a lot of things
that I mentioned there that I possibly could have forgotten, too.
There was no particular reason for it. There was nothing that I was
trying to cover up or hide because I got nothing to hide.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not suggesting that in any sort of invidious sense.
Mr. SENATOR. It is just a shakeup of a fast brain, that is all, at the
moment, when all these things were happening.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you what I have marked as “Washington, D.C.,
April 23, 1964, George Senator Deposition, Exhibit 5400,” and I will
sign my name to it. This is a copy of an affidavit which appears to
bear your signature which was sworn to before William F. Alexander on
November 24, 1963.
Mr. SENATOR. Is that the man who had me? I don’t remember who it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is apparently the man who is a notary public who took
this statement. Look it over. Read it if you would. I hand it to you
now. Tell me if you remember signing that and if that is true.
Mr. SENATOR. That is, that is my signature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Read it through to make sure as best you can remember that
that is a true copy of what you signed. It that a true copy of the
statement you signed?
Mr. SENATOR. To the best of my knowledge.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder then if you would sign that under my name. I hand
you that pen back. As I understand it, then, immediately after you
signed this statement before Mr. Alexander, you were then interviewed
by an agent of the FBI.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you shaken up in dealing with the FBI agent?
Mr. SENATOR. Sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In this same, or rather in this interview with the FBI,
the FBI reports you as telling them during that interview that you
learned of Oswald’s being shot just as you walked in the door of the
Eatwell Restaurant.
Mr. SENATOR. Just as I walked in? No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall that?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I was sitting. I was sitting. I wasn’t walking in the
door. I was down on the seat and already had my first cup of coffee.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Also, one gets the impression from the FBI interview it
was your recollection on November 24 that you called Jim Martin after
you learned that Jack Ruby had shot Oswald.
Mr. SENATOR. No; before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was before you learned that?
Mr. SENATOR. Right. I called him—wait, wait. No; that is right. I did.
But I wasn’t home. That was it. I called him and spoke to his daughter,
one of his little girls.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that was before you learned that Ruby——
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. When I heard that Oswald was shot, but nothing
mentioned. There was no name or no club mentioned, Oswald was shot—that
is when I called him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Directing your attention to the FBI’s report on November
24, that you said you learned that Oswald was shot just as you walked
in the door.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you now remember that you were seated and had a
cup of coffee whereas apparently you didn’t remember that on November
24?
Mr. SENATOR. Because the waitress who waited on me was the one who said
it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she say it to you?
Mr. SENATOR. No. She was behind the counter. Not specifically to me. It
was pretty loud.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have a TV set on?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think so. I don’t know. She got her
information through either the phone, or they may have had a little
radio. I don’t remember just what it was, because I wasn’t looking
directly where she was walking around, or what she was doing, but she
was behind the counter, and I was sitting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time elapsed between the time you learned that
Oswald had been shot and the time you learned that Ruby had been the
person who shot him?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say within 5 to 10 minutes, something
like that. It was a short while I know. It wasn’t long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I’m going to mark a document which I have before me in the
following manner: “Washington, D.C., April 23, 1964, George Senator,
Deposition Exhibit 5401,” and I am going to sign my name to it.
This document which I have marked as a copy of an interview report
prepared by Special Agent Kenneth C. Howe of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation, of an interview on November 24, 1963, with you, Mr.
Senator. It consists of five pages, typewritten pages, and they are
numbered 296 to 300. I have marked on page 296, and I have not marked
the succeeding pages. I want to hand you this and ask you now to
take the time to read it over, and then I want to know if that is an
accurate report of what you told the FBI at that time.
I am not asking you whether, on further reflection, you would change
what you said in there, but merely whether that accurately reflects
what you told them at that time. If it doesn’t, why, will you point out
the parts that are not accurate, and we will see if we can’t correct it.
Mr. SENATOR. Shall I make little notations here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there some places you want to change?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you mark on it—why don’t you do this——
Mr. SENATOR. It will only be a dot.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you just take this paper and make some notes on
it and then we can go back.
Mr. SENATOR. There is going to be some changes in here. I will point
them out to you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you got some changes to make there?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. I had better go over it with you though.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you read the sentence or sentences that you
would make changes in, and then we will discuss them? What I suggest
you do is read one sentence or a group of sentences that are wrong, and
then we will discuss that sentence or group, and then we will move on
to the next one. Go right ahead and read it.
Mr. SENATOR. It says here, “He had only casual association with
him, mostly only as a patron to his club, from that time on until
approximately 3 years ago.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is on page 296 of the FBI report?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Now it wasn’t 3 years ago at the time. This was 2
years ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, your association with Jack was casual up
until 2 years ago?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. SENATOR. In other words, it was 1962, February, March, or April or
somewheres in there of 1962.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you change with your pen, strike out the word
“three.”
Mr. SENATOR. On this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. On that. And write “two.”
Mr. SENATOR. You mean cross the three off and put a two in there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. And then initial it and date it.
Mr. SENATOR. It is going to be hard to squeeze it in between these
lines. Shall I put my initial after it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. You won’t be able to see it. These writings here don’t
coincide.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me talk a little bit more about this change in your
relationship with Jack. Up until approximately March or April of 1962
when your relationship became more than casual, were there other people
in Dallas to whom you felt closer than Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I think maybe we are both misinterpreting this. When
you say closer, this is when I first started to—you know, when I was
down and out and I first started to work for him, and I was living
with him. You see what I mean?
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is March or April of 1962?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say either February, March, or April,
something like that. I don’t remember that I was living with him,
because previous to that I still didn’t see him any more than I ever
did in the past.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And up to this time were there other people in Dallas whom
you saw more frequently than Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, the only time I saw Jack is when I ever met him
anywheres, if I should run across him anywheres, or once in a while I
would go up to his club, that was all, and it has never been anything
but that up until that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you see more frequently or on a more social basis?
Mr. SENATOR. Actually I couldn’t see him frequently. Before that I was
traveling. See, I was traveling. I wasn’t home every weekend. There
were times when I was traveling, there were times I might miss a week
from coming home. It all depends on the location you are—if you are too
far from home. Then other times I might be gone two or three. It all
depends, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I want to get some idea of is up until this period
that you moved in with Jack in 1962, who were the people that you saw
on a social basis?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, I have seen Bill Downey. What I want to impress you,
these people I don’t see every day, or like, you know, say I see them
today, tomorrow, the next day, and things like that. On rare occasions
I saw Don Taber. That time on rare occasions I saw Jim Martin. These
were all rare, mind you, then. See, I did more meeting. I met a lot of
people at the Burgundy Room most of the time. In other words, somebody
has a favorite hangout.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that Burgundy Room was yours?
Mr. SENATOR. This is mine.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For how long has it been your favorite hangout?
Mr. SENATOR. Ever since I came to Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a place you would go almost every day?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say more so than any other place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you go there almost every day?
Mr. SENATOR. No, not every day, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Two or three times a week?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say yes, sure, and I always met some friends
there—after they all get out from work a lot of people always gathered,
transient or local, from 5 on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The Burgundy Room to you is sort of what a private club
would be to a wealthier man?
Mr. SENATOR. That is of that nature, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And there were certain other people who used to hang
around there?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack Ruby one of the people?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I have only seen Jack go in there that I can remember
twice, but he never sat down and had a drink. In and out. Walked in.
Jack is not a drinking man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So would it be fair to say that for recreation and
pastime——
Mr. SENATOR. Just as one of my hangouts.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You would go to the Burgundy Room and have a few beers, a
few drinks?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. Whoever walked in. I had many friends who walked in.
Whoever walked in, there is many girls that I knew, many fellows that I
knew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you are not a man who spends his spare time——
Mr. SENATOR. Not particularly, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Playing golf or tennis?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I’ll tell you—the only habit I got is I like to cook,
this is my golf or what somebody else would do, or whatever he may
recreate in—I used to like to piddle around in the kitchen. That is why
Jack Ruby didn’t like me. You are not writing that?
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean that you like to experiment with food?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, I like to putter around. I enjoy puttering around in
kitchens. I done this for a long time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you worked in a number of restaurants?
Mr. SENATOR. But not in that capacity. Of course, I was broken in, you
know. When I say broken in, I worked for my brother you know, years
ago, but I wasn’t classified as any cook or any thing of that nature.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any sort of specialty foods you like to cook?
Mr. SENATOR. I like to mess around with different concoctions, I mean
because anybody can throw a hamburger on, you know, in the home, or
anybody can throw a steak on, whether it comes out good or bad, that
is not a challenge. But to try to make some concoctions where you mix
things——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Salads?
Mr. SENATOR. They can be salads or any hot dishes, something like that,
or see how good you can make spareribs come out, which a lot of people
can’t make good, and then all the lawyers in Dallas think I am the
greatest when it comes to making spareribs, because I have been invited
many times, and I do put on a good rib plate.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you in the habit of inviting people to your place
for dinner?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes, I have many a time. Nobody particular, but I have. I
mean this—I relished, I have been invited over to people’s homes. Jim
Martin has invited me to his place to cook. There is another lawyer
invited me over to his home to cook. They thought I did a good job in
the kitchen. While they sat down I was sweating in the kitchen, but it
was fun.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But Jack didn’t appreciate your cooking?
Mr. SENATOR. He liked my cooking, but he wouldn’t eat it because he
classified me as one making rich, fatty foods, that would put a pouch
on him. This is the thing, because this is why I mentioned to you that
I love to make this avocado dish, which I mentioned to you before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is when we were having lunch.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn’t pull out an avocado salad today as I did
yesterday.
Mr. SENATOR. I love avocadoes. I think they are great. I used to make
a concoction and put on avocado and everybody used to love it. I must
have put about nine different ingredients in it, but it tasted real
good, real good. They used to clean the plate out. That was a good
enough answer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now there are some other things in that statement or that
interview report that I think you want to change.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. These don’t look like my words. I don’t say
that some of these aren’t factors, you know, but I don’t see, I don’t
think some of these are the direct words that come out of my mouth.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that you understand, these are not supposed to be
actually the direct words that come out of your mouth, but this is
their report of what they recall your saying. Now if it changes the
substance in some way, if they have used words that change the meaning
in some way, or the approach that you had, I think it is important to
bring that out.
Mr. SENATOR. Let me read this off to you. This is right after the next
sentence. It says, “Thereafter he considers himself to be much closer
to Ruby, but in this regard could not explain why he considered himself
closer during the past 3 years.” Now I don’t even know what that means.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand it.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t understand it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand it to mean that you felt that you were closer
to Ruby but you couldn’t explain to them why you were closer to Ruby.
Mr. SENATOR. Let me read this to myself again? This don’t make sense
to me. Maybe I don’t understand what I am reading, what I have read to
you. Do you want to go over it with me?
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. SENATOR. This part I read to you, start there, “Thereafter.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. “Thereafter he considered himself to have been closer to
Ruby, but in this regard could not explain why he considered himself
closer during the past 3 years than the time before he knew Ruby.”
In other words, they are saying that you couldn’t explain why you felt
closer to Ruby in this recent period.
Mr. SENATOR. If I had just moved in, how could I really feel that
closer, just moving in? It doesn’t necessarily mean being close to him.
I mean, this I don’t understand. What do they mean when they say—how
can you just move in with somebody and say, say you are that close to
him? You are there, that is true, but what do you mean by being close
to him? If you had just gone in and had always known him casually——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Isn’t part of the reason that you felt closer to him in
recent years than you had long before is that you began to live with
him in recent years, and that automatically made you closer? You saw
him more often.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but I mean the way this sort of states to me, unless
I misinterpret it, like I just moved in and I am that close to him
already, I am really like a buddy-buddy, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; there is no mention in here at this point in the FBI
interview report of your having moved in with Ruby.
Mr. SENATOR. In so many words, though, doesn’t it sound the same to
you? “... than in the past 3 years”.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but it doesn’t mention that in the past 3 years you
moved in and began living with him, whereas before then you hadn’t
lived with him. As I understand what you have been saying to us up to
this point is that your closer relationship simply resulted from the
fact that you began to see him every day, whereas before——
Mr. SENATOR. See the way I interpret this, the moment I moved in I was
already close to him. Of course, I know that I am in the same place,
but that is the way I am interpreting it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s let it stand for the record, then, that you did not
automatically feel closer to Jack Ruby at the time you moved in with
him.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Your moving in with him was not the result of having
established a close relationship, but was a result of Jack’s taking you
in when you didn’t have a place to live and didn’t have any money. Is
that it?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I mean the appreciation was there, I want you to
know, of these things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how did Jack happen to learn that you needed a place
to live and so he invited you in with him?
Mr. SENATOR. I identified myself that way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, you approached him and asked him if you
could move in?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I don’t remember just how it was, but I was not in
good condition, I was hurting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And had there been something about Jack before that that
had indicated to you that Jack would be the kind of a guy who would
respond like this?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; because he has responded to other people like this,
and after that, and I have seen it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you heard before you moved in with Jack that Jack had
taken in other people or done things for other people?
Mr. SENATOR. The example number one is the chap that I told you is
deceased—I don’t say this man was hurting, but he was still living in
Jack’s apartment for free.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Martin Gimpel?
Mr. SENATOR. Martin Gimpel. He was still living in Jack’s apartment for
free. I don’t say he was hurting for money, which I don’t know because
I didn’t know his business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You knew that at the time you approached Jack? You knew
Gimpel had been living with him?
Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t know Gimpel that way, just from running across
him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But had anybody else suggested to you that Jack might be
willing to take you in?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; it was just one of those things that happened by
chance. That is all. Of course, within me I didn’t know what was going
to happen, but he took me in. I have seen other instances like this
chap Larry. Now he ran across him out at the fairgrounds.
I don’t know what it was, but this kid here didn’t have the right time.
He was doing something out there. His apparel was nothing, and Jack
bought him a suit. Of course, mind you, he put him in the club, let him
sleep there, but he made him work, but he gave him a few bucks. He gave
him a place to sleep. He put some clothes on his back.
And one time before he disappeared I even heard him mention once—Larry
didn’t have any front teeth, and I heard Jack mention once, “Larry,
we’ll have to do something about your teeth, to get you some front
teeth.” This is a true fact. As tough as this guy was at times, he was
soft too. He had a heart. Many a buck he shelled out to somebody to
grab a bite.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You suggested you found this Ewing Street apartment.
Mr. SENATOR. The new place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You made the decision——
Mr. SENATOR. Somebody told me to take a look at this new place going
up. At the time I looked at it, this place wasn’t even ready.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you suggest to Jack that he might also want to move in
there?
Mr. SENATOR. I mentioned to Jack to take a look at it, see. This is
before either one of us were living there. The thing was still in the
working stages. It was coming round to completion, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As we had discussed before, you moved in with Jack in the
early part of 1962 and lived with him for about 5 months?
Mr. SENATOR. But not at this place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; at another place.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And, of course, during that 5 months you began to know the
man better.
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You came closer to him, but you decided when you got a job
you wanted to move out from him?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now I am curious as to why you decided that you wanted to
move out rather than decide that you would stay there and pay part of
the rent.
Mr. SENATOR. Particularly one. I told you he didn’t keep a very clean
place, but should I classify myself to say a man who is unemployed, a
beggar—beggars can’t be choosers, that is an old saying, right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. That is part of it. All right, I know the overall picture
that Jack would rather live alone, see. I mean if somebody is out,
something like me, if I needed a place, all right, he would keep me.
But in the overall picture he would rather live alone.
And many a guy has slept at his place whether the Carousel or one of
the apartments he may live in, and I don’t know how many he has lived
in previous to when I knew him where he may put up a guy for a night,
2, 3, 4, or 5, whatever it might be, and fed him, because he was tapped
or something of that nature. He has done this many a time, and I would
probably say even before I knew him, and I feel this probably could go
back to the hardships of his youth, because he, as I understand it, he
had a rough bringing up and growing up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk about that to you?
Mr. SENATOR. He talked about some of it, but I never heard all of it
come out in the courtroom. Of course, I never knew up until, you know,
the recent times that his mother was in an institution or a crazy
house, which I never knew. And, of course, I didn’t know how drunk his
father used to be, but I understand he was a habitual——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk about his father when you lived with him?
Mr. SENATOR. I think he had mentioned his father, but he had never
mentioned his mother, never, which I never knew. Of course, this all
come out after the shooting, you know, everything come out, was brought
out either by the sisters or somebody. And I never knew about how the
kids were all separated, things of that nature, when they were young.
One was placed here, one was placed there, wherever they were placed. A
lot of these things I never even knew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So this conclusion that you are now drawing——
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say this might be why he has done some of
the things he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are drawing this conclusion on the basis of what you
have learned since he shot Oswald, and not on the basis of anything
that you knew beforehand? In other words, these things you have been
talking about, his father and his mother and the separation of the
children, this you first learned after he shot Oswald? You didn’t know
about that when you were living with him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t know about it. I heard him mention that he
had tough days as a kid, but he never talked about them too much,
very, very little. All these things, the majority of the things that
come out, come out after the trial, I mean after the shooting. There,
of course, I think his sisters come out with the majority of it and
probably his brothers, when things had to be related and had to go back
all these years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead through there as you have, through that Exhibit
5401, and if there is anything else in there that you think should be
changed or clarified—keep in mind what I am primarily concerned with is
whether this report you are looking at is an accurate report of what
was told to the FBI at that time.
Mr. SENATOR. Let me run through this one: “He added he occasionally
when low on funds would be asked by Ruby to come and stay a day or two
with him until he got back on his feet”.
Of course, this is a comma, and then it continues, but I want to
stop right there. Let me run through the whole thing. “He added he
occasionally when low on funds would be asked by Ruby to come and stay
a day or two with him until he got back on his feet, but he claims he
actually never lived with him until about November 1, 1963, when he
moved into the apartment of Ruby’s, apartment 207, 223 South Ewing,
Dallas, Tex.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; well, that is inaccurate?
Mr. SENATOR. You know that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, my only question to you is when the FBI interviewed
you, and this is on November 24, did you omit to tell them that you had
lived with Ruby on an earlier occasion?
Mr. SENATOR. To the best of my knowledge. I don’t think I did omit
that. I don’t think I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think the record is sufficiently clear.
Mr. SENATOR. Now, there are a lot of things I must tell you which I
have told you before. I am not always sure of everything, you know. In
other words, I have to use these words to let you know that I ain’t
lying.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think the record will be clear from this deposition that
you didn’t live with him before November 1st of 1963.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, unless that you are certain that you did tell the FBI
about living with Ruby before November 1st, I would rather not change
it on there, write it in there, but I would rather simply let the
record show that we are making here, simply let it reflect that that is
inaccurate.
Mr. SENATOR. Let me run back on this one again, part of this again:
“He added he occasionally when low on funds would be asked by Ruby to
come and stay a day or two with him until he got back on his feet,”.
This was never, because the first time I stayed with him was when I
stayed at the club, and then moved with him, because I stayed with him
5 to 6 months, something like that. Of course, I don’t know how you
classify this, how important it is to you or not, because I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there occasions other than the time that you lived
with him for 5 or 6 months that you did come and stay with him for a
day or two?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It never happened?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I was with him. I mean I wasn’t in and out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now is it possible that you could have told them this in
the anxiety and turmoil that you were under at the time this interview
took place?
Mr. SENATOR. I could probably say that anything at that time, that day,
could be possible. Maybe I feel it isn’t, but let me say that I wasn’t
in the best of condition that day. I would say anybody that was in the
nature that I was in, and I don’t care who the individual was, would
have been shaken up as well as I.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think again here now the record will reflect, and I want
to go through and point these out as you are doing, but I think the
record again here will reflect what is accurate as to what has actually
happened.
Let’s let this thing stand, unless you are 100 percent sure that you
didn’t say that, let’s let it stand on there as written. By “on there”
I am referring to the Exhibit 5401.
Mr. SENATOR. Now here is a point:
“Shortly after Senator first met him, Ruby opened the Sovereign Club on
the second floor of the building on the southeast corner of Field and
Commerce in downtown Dallas.”
Now this was before I got to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He was running the Sovereign Club before you met him?
Mr. SENATOR. He was in the Sovereign Club; yes. I don’t know how long
he was in there, but he was in there before I came that close to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you had known Jack?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I have known him; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Even when he ran the Silver Spur, didn’t you?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I wasn’t living in Dallas then. That is way before my
time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You knew him before he opened the Sovereign Club when he
only had the Vegas?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, sure. This is the Sovereign Club. Wait a minute. It
says shortly after I first met him. My God, this don’t go that far
back, and I have known Ruby, unless he could have meant the Vegas Club,
I don’t know. Of course, I don’t know how important this is to you
either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Again here I am glad you pointed this out. Here I think
that this deposition will clear this up.
Mr. SENATOR. Now here is one that says I wasn’t able to furnish the
individual’s name, but I know it now.
“Ruby had a partner in the operation of the Sovereign Club, but Senator
was unable to furnish this individual’s name.”
But we have talked about that name today.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Joe Slayton.
Mr. SENATOR. Joe Slayton; yes, sir. Now I don’t think I knew who it was
then, who his partner was. “Senator can state only that he believes
Ruby to be the sole owner and operator of the present Carousel Club.”
Now there was a backer and I knew him well, but I didn’t know the
conditions.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you reluctant at the time you talked to the FBI to
disclose this?
Mr. SENATOR. No. You mean to hold back on them?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. That is the way it sounds when you say that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; I wasn’t. As well as I knew him I didn’t know
the formality of what he had to the Carousel as many times as he came
there. I didn’t know what his status was in it. I knew there was a
close—I mean he had a close relationship with Jack. He knew him well.
“Ruby actively managed the Carousel Club although he still as far as
Senator knows owns the Vegas Club,” which we know different now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to go on to the next page?
Mr. SENATOR. I am through with that page.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Look at page 297 of this same report and tell us if there
are any changes or modifications or corrections you want to make there.
Mr. SENATOR. What is I.E., the initials?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That means in explanation. The sentence you are referring
to is,
“Senator was of the opinion Ruby, since he is Jewish, feels somewhat
the same on things of this type as he (Senator) does, i.e., a Jew has
no right to express opinions of any sort, especially when he is in
business, since he has enough strikes against him just being a Jew.”
In other words, this statement about a Jew having no right to express
opinions of any sort is a belief that you have, and the FBI is saying
you believe that, and you think Ruby believes the same thing.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t believe I said that. I don’t believe I ever said
that. I know that Ruby is a sensitive man as far as when the word “Jew”
comes up, you know, in something he don’t like. He takes tremendous
offense. No; I am not of the nature of Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then do you feel that a Jewish person has no business
expressing political opinions, and so forth?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, they certainly have a perfect right to express
opinions as anybody else. I would probably say—let me say I think they
are more careful. I can’t speak for every individual, mind you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think that Jack felt that a Jewish person has no
business expressing——
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Opinions of any sort, especially when he is in business?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know what he felt. All I know is that he gets
pretty sensitive when somebody is knocking it, or jokes and things,
things of that nature, he don’t go for it nohow.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This language which we have been quoting arises in a
paragraph that starts out:
“Ruby never expressed any special political preferences and never even
discussed political matters.”
Then it goes on to state this view, that “A Jew has no right to express
opinions of any sort,” the suggestion being that Ruby never discussed
politics because he didn’t think a Jew should discuss politics.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know about that. Of course, I can’t quote Ruby’s
words. I can’t think for Ruby like I can’t think for anybody else.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you would say that now your present opinion is that
you have no information about Ruby which would make you believe that he
declined to be interested in political matters because of his Jewish
background, that is, his Jewish background discouraged him or made him
feel that he shouldn’t have this kind of——
Mr. SENATOR. I couldn’t even answer that because I don’t even know. I
don’t even know. All I do know is I know that anybody comes out and
calls him a God-damned Jew or something to that effect, he don’t go for
this nohow, he just don’t go for it. He is sensitive that way.
Now somebody could say it to me and I would probably be able to laugh
it off, whether I did or didn’t like it, but I tell you Jack Ruby don’t
laugh these things off.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He is sensitive about being criticized because he is a Jew?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t feel, I take it, that there is necessarily
any connection between his sensitivity to being a Jew and his apparent
lack of interest in politics?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t believe so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If now in discussing this situation in an atmosphere which
I take it is a little bit more relaxed than it was on November 24th, if
you were to offer a judgment as to why Jack Ruby didn’t appear to be
interested in politics, what would you suggest for the reason?
Mr. SENATOR. I have no answer for it, but all I can say is these things
don’t interest him. He was not interested in these things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is his primary interest?
Mr. SENATOR. Show business.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about girls? How about sex? Is that an important
interest to him?
Mr. SENATOR. It is as natural for him as it is for any other male human
being.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a matter, though—was sex something that he
discussed as much as he discussed his business, for example?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no. I don’t say—I don’t say that he hasn’t discussed
it, but I will say that there isn’t any male that hasn’t discussed it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead with that page 297 and point out any other
paragraphs that you would change or correct.
Mr. SENATOR. In this next column here, the only thing is, “Ruby owned a
revolver which Senator could describe only by saying it was black. This
was kept at the Carousel Club, although occasionally Ruby would carry
it back and forth between the club and his home because he usually
carried a fairly large sum of money.”
Now there is only one little point there I want to bring out, and this
is the point I want to bring out:
“This was kept at the Carousel Club, although occasionally Ruby would
carry it back and forth between the club and his home.”
This was an everyday occurrence.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He carried it back and forth every day?
Mr. SENATOR. When he left the house to go to the club, bingo, that went
with him. When he left the club to go home, that went with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Did he keep the gun in the apartment
or did he keep it in his car?
Mr. SENATOR. He kept it in his apartment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He kept it in the apartment?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now would he keep it on his person or would he keep it in
a moneybag?
Mr. SENATOR. It has been both ways. It all depends on how he is going
home. I mean, no particular reason. He has kept it both ways.
Now, I can’t quote how many times he has it in his pocket or in
his moneybag, something like that, and I can’t even quote, maybe
occasionally he may have forgotten it and left it in the car. If he did
leave it in the car it would be locked in the trunk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have the habit of taking the revolver out of the
automobile when he got to the Carousel Club and carrying it up into the
Carousel Club, or don’t you remember?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, he takes it up there, sure. He takes it upstairs. Now
if he does it every day, you must understand that I am not watching
every move Jack Ruby made.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you see it?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t even know. I can’t quote the times, but I would
probably say the majority of times it probably went up, and then again
it may have went up all the time. As I say, I am not watching, looking
for a bag all the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it also possible he may have only taken it up
occasionally to the club?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say the majority of the times it went up.
If you are asking me to break it down, I can’t break it down. First of
all, I am not always with him when he is going to the club.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. On the occasions that you saw him carry it
up into the club did he carry it up in his pocket or did he carry it in
a bag?
Mr. SENATOR. The times that I have seen him, I have seen him have it in
the bag.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I would think that if he didn’t have a holster it would be
pretty cumbersome to carry that revolver around the club in his pocket.
Mr. SENATOR. I have never known him to have a holster. I have never
seen one, never seen a holster on him, or what do you call these
things, shoulder? I have never seen one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see a holster in his automobile?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I don’t even know if he even had one. This is a part
that I have had a lot of trouble with, with a lot of people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What part is that?
Mr. SENATOR. This is the part—this is why I think they were probably
looking at me as a fag or a queer: “Senator on some occasions would
refer to Ruby as a boyfriend.” And I have said that to many people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you happen to use that term?
Mr. SENATOR. It is a word I have used all my life, when I was even a
kid. There was no particular reason. My boyfriends, some people may say
“This is my acquaintance.” It happens to be I have always used this
word, no particular reason. Maybe I would probably say it was a habit
more than anything else.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now let me ask you this: You stated to us unequivocally
you are not a homosexual.
Mr. SENATOR. You can be assured, you can be assured. I will say that
Georgie still loves women yet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is not necessarily inconsistent with being a
homosexual, but I am not suggesting——
Mr. SENATOR. But you heard my words, though, my words they are direct
believe me. And I don’t intend changing it. I may not be that strong,
but I don’t intend changing them. Of course, age is a benefactor.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are talking about your affection for women?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; certainly. I still like the beauty of the female
sex. Let me read the rest of this. Let me quote you something that Mr.
Alexander had me at the first bond hearing—I can’t help but think of it
when I read this “boyfriend” and how many times that has been quoted.
It has never been quoted me direct, but I have heard it hearsay, you
know, things like that. At the bond hearing, the first bond hearing,
Mr. Alexander said to me:
“You and Jack Ruby lived together?” And I said, “Yes.”
He says, “How many bedrooms in the apartment you live in?”
I said, “Two.”
He says, “What are the other rooms?”
I says, “There is a bathroom, kitchen, and a living room.”
Then he come out with this live one, which I grasped right away. This
is what I call it.
“Where do you keep the TV?”
I didn’t particularly like it, but I was on the witness stand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you say?
Mr. SENATOR. I said, “In the living room,” where it is. But I caught
the drift right away. And I wasn’t happy about that because I couldn’t
open my mouth because I was on the witness stand.
Page 298. You got the drift of that, didn’t you?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; very clear.
Mr. SENATOR. I can’t quote the rest of it because he put it down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead, I am interested.
Mr. SENATOR. In other words, what this means is Jack Ruby and I are in
bed together, probably holding hands, or whatever it might be, watching
TV. Is that easy?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Isn’t that logical?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. And I was pretty disturbed over this. How does he base
something like this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it he didn’t follow it up in any way?
Mr. SENATOR. Not the second time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He didn’t attempt to discredit your statement that it was
kept in the living room?
Mr. SENATOR. No. And when he didn’t bring that up at all on the witness
stand——
Mr. GRIFFIN. At the trial?
Mr. SENATOR. At the trial. There is something here; I don’t know what
it means; the difference may be an hour or two, according to what time
I came home that Friday night—he said between 9 and 10.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When do you think it was?
Mr. SENATOR. I would say between 10 and 11.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you here: What did you do from the time you
heard that the President had been shot on Friday until you came home
at, say 10 o’clock? Did you work the rest of that day?
Mr. SENATOR. That was a black day; man, that was a sad day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were at Jack’s?
Mr. SENATOR. That was a day I will tell you I don’t think a living soul
in Dallas had any ambition to work. You would have to see that town
that day and the feeling of all the individuals in that town. It was
really a sad, sad day. It was a weeping day. I’ll tell you that is what
it was; it was a weeping day for the city.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to the Burgundy Room? Where did you go from
Jack’s when you first heard this news?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I went downtown; did a little deskwork again. I am
not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Talk out loud and then we can correct it.
Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure what it was. I don’t remember anymore.
I think I went to the Burgundy Room. I think I just messed around
downtown in the area. No particular place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be a place like the Burgundy Room, a tavern?
Mr. SENATOR. Probably so; probably so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any people you saw on Friday?
Mr. SENATOR. I can’t recollect. It was a very sad day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think that is a day that is rather vivid to most of us.
I know it is with me. I am just wondering if you can’t think where you
were that day, and who you talked to.
Mr. SENATOR. In all probability I probably spoke to many people
downtown that day, or various places, wherever I may have been.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What other places are you accustomed to go to besides the
Burgundy Room?
Mr. SENATOR. The Burgundy Room; there is another place I used to drop
in, which is called the Smuggler, which is uptown. These are both
places that I went to. Of course, the Burgundy Room is No. 1. The other
place I do go just occasionally, I do go to the place occasionally.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say you were hanging around downtown, you were
hanging around someplace where you could have a drink, a bite to eat,
or something of that sort?
Mr. SENATOR. I would probably say that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you wouldn’t have been in a department store or a
drugstore, someplace like that?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t think so. I mean I don’t know. A department
store; definitely I haven’t been in there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We are talking about someplace where you could get a
drink, watch television, and watch the events on television. Did you
spend all day watching the events on television?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t. I think I was in the downtown area. I think
I was in the downtown area most of that day, if I am not mistaken.
I don’t remember just where I was. I may have floated from downtown
uptown. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think you had quite a bit to drink that day?
Mr. SENATOR. I will probably say I had maybe a fair amount. I mean, to
be drunk or anything of that nature, I don’t think I was drunk that day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you are pretty well able to hold your liquor,
from what you said before. You feel that you are?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that I wonder if——
Mr. SENATOR. In other words, I got to be careful when I’m driving
because if you get nabbed by the Dallas cops, you are in trouble, but
good trouble, and I don’t want to get in that condition.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am wondering, from what you are saying here, if it
isn’t a fair impression to draw——
Mr. SENATOR. If it isn’t what?
Mr. GRIFFIN. If I couldn’t fairly infer that you had been drinking
most of the time after you heard that the President was shot, although
you don’t feel that you had been drinking so much that you weren’t in
control of yourself.
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, I was in control of myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you had been drinking fairly steadily from the time
you heard the President was shot until you went home that night?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this have anything to do with your failure to
recollect what you had done that day?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think I was that tight; no. I just don’t remember
where I navigated that day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you suggest again—and I keep throwing the same
question back to you—can you think or suggest someone that you saw that
day?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know if I saw—I keep on bringing up this attorney
all the while, Jim Martin. I don’t know if I saw him, called him, or
went to his office that day or not. I used to meet him before all this
here was going on, you know, for cocktail hour before I went home,
between 5 to 6, and went home, but I don’t know if I met him that day
or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you have dinner that night?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t even think I had dinner that night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you attempt to get in touch with Jack Ruby that night?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was that?
Mr. SENATOR. No particular reason why. I just didn’t; that is all. I
didn’t even look for him. There was no special reason. You see, I have
never, if I am out, gotten on the telephone to see if he was home or
what he was going to do or things of that nature. In other words, when
I am out I am free.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack wasn’t somebody that you did things with; is that
fair to say?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I didn’t do much with him; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And part of the reason was Jack didn’t drink? Wasn’t that
probably part of it?
Mr. SENATOR. Jack don’t like me drinking and Jack don’t like to see me
go into joints. All right. Now the Burgundy Room; I don’t know if you
have ever been there while you were down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I haven’t.
Mr. SENATOR. It is a nice place. It gets fine transient trade and local
people, and it is one of the nicest places, I feel as an open bar that
you can go to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does Jack somehow have the idea that you drink too much?
Mr. SENATOR. Not exactly drink too much. You know I can drink one beer
and he will say, “You are drunk, aren’t you?” He will pull this on me.
He has pulled it many a time on me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he feel that way about other people?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I don’t know about other people. But he
didn’t like me drinking. He said it to me many a time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you put up with a guy who criticized your personal
habits as much as Jack appears to have done?
Mr. SENATOR. In all reality, it didn’t bother me. I didn’t care what he
said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He sort of treated you like you were his son?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; no. He just didn’t like to have me drink; that
is all. He felt I was wasting—believe it or not, here is a man with a
club who felt I was throwing my money away, and he felt that I couldn’t
afford to be throwing my money away.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He took some sort of a brotherly or fatherly interest in
you, or was this just Jack’s desire to dominate people?
Mr. SENATOR. Dominate? I don’t know if “dominate” would be the word.
But as a friend he liked me; I will put it that way. He liked me as a
friend.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that because of anything you had done for him?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, you know, I did a lot of things for him, and, of
course, he has done things for me, you know. When I was down and out he
helped me out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You showed him a certain amount of loyalty and confidence.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; you see, I don’t argue back with him. I don’t know if
he likes this or not, you know. I don’t want to argue with him. So I
“Yes” him to get the argument over with, because when he hollers at me
he hollers from the rooftops. But when you hear enough of it, it didn’t
bother me. It may have bothered a lot of people, but it didn’t bother
me because with me I knew there was no harm that would be done. But
the shrill of his voice, you know he was around. You could hear it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. OK; let’s go on there on page 298 from where we were.
Mr. SENATOR. It says, “Ruby and Senator arose on November 24, and
Senator noticed Ruby had brought one of four dogs which he ordinarily
keeps at the Carousel home with him.” He brings this same dog home
every night. And when it says, “Ruby and Senator arose,” it is like we
woke up at the same time. That is not so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This refers to Sunday morning, November 24; is that right?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the correct statement of this would be that——
Mr. SENATOR. I woke up before he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You woke up before he did, and that Jack always keeps
Sheba——
Mr. SENATOR. Always brings Sheba home every night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it customary also for him to take Sheba down to the
club every day?
Mr. SENATOR. Both forth and back, forth and back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Sheba with him wherever he goes?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; the dog is always with him. This was his pet. This
was his favorite of a few dogs that he had.
Mr. GRIFFIN. OK; I think the record is clear enough on that; that we
don’t have to make any entry on the page.
Mr. SENATOR. Of course, the other is what we discussed before about the
signs that you have on this page.
Mr. GRIFFIN. There is nothing in there about the signs, is there?
Mr. SENATOR. None. Elmer Moore has the one about the signs. This is
page 299. I forgot to tell you. I went to this restaurant, it says,
to eat. I just had that coffee. The morning when I went down to eat
on Main Street, it says I went down to eat. I only had coffee. “He
estimated as he arrived there at approximately 11:30 and as he walked
in the door he overheard one of the waitresses saying Oswald has been
shot.” This is not so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was after you sat down?
Mr. SENATOR. I had been sitting already.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that on page 300 or page 299?
Mr. SENATOR. 299. Now he got this twisted.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you read the part that is twisted.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. “Shortly thereafter the waitress told Senator that
Oswald had been shot by a local tavern operator, and a short while
after that he learned the name of this individual to be Jack Ruby.
He said he was dumfounded, and did not know what to do, but after a
short while he went to the telephone and called Jim Martin on Gladiola
Street, Dallas, as an attorney whom he knew.” We went through that. Do
you want to go through that again?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I want to know if you say now, of course, that that
is not what happened. Now, what did you tell the agent? Could you have
told the agent that?
Mr. SENATOR. No; when the waitress said that she heard Oswald had been
shot, I called Jim Martin, but nobody knew who. The daughter answered
the phone and said her daddy was in church, and that he would be home
in a short while.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is your recollection that when you called Jim Martin,
you couldn’t get ahold of him, but you talked to his daughter.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old is his daughter?
Mr. SENATOR. He had three of them, and I don’t remember which one
answered. Of course, one is too young. I don’t know which one he went
to church with. One is 15 or 16 and the other is, I think, 10 or 11.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And is there one even younger than 10 or 11?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, an infant. Maybe she is 2 or 3 years old; something
like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you tell the daughter who you were; who was calling?
Did you leave word?
Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure if I told her to tell her daddy that George
called. I am not sure if I did or not. I don’t want to say I did and
I don’t want to say I didn’t, because I don’t remember. No; I didn’t
leave right after that. I still had a cup of coffee yet. It says I left
right after this call.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is incorrect; is that what you are saying?
Mr. SENATOR. “He said this attorney was not at home, so he got into his
car and drove to the attorney’s house to wait for his return.” This
I did not do. What I did was I still sat there and I had two cups of
coffee, when this girl hollered out again, “the Carousel, Jack Ruby,”
which words were sort of mispronounced the way she said it; this is
when I went. Of course, I sat there for a little bit, not knowing what
the hell to do. This was stunning. I sort of froze right to the seat
when I heard that. Page 300. I read too slow, don’t I?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right. Go ahead.
Mr. SENATOR. Let me run this through. I don’t catch the last part of
this: “He never heard Ruby say Oswald had ever visited either one of
the clubs in which Ruby was interested.” Does that mean, in other
words, the clubs that Jack owned?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.
Mr. SENATOR. All right; OK.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you a few questions. You have had a chance to
read that all over. Now on page 298 the FBI reports you in this fashion:
“Senator has no accurate idea as to where Ruby had been all day.” That
refers to Friday.
Mr. SENATOR. November 24.
Mr. GRIFFIN. November 22.
Mr. SENATOR. Twenty-second; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. “But does know that, because of the shooting of the
President, Ruby has had many businessmen in Dallas close his business.
Senator has some recollection Ruby said he had been at his sister’s
home for awhile.” Is it fair then to draw the conclusion from that
statement that, when you talked with the FBI on November 24, you did
know what Ruby had done on Friday night, on Friday other than that he
had closed his business, and that he had been at his sister’s?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. He went to the police station with sandwiches, I
heard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But, you see, you told the FBI on November 24, when this
presumably was as fresh in your mind as it is ever going to be, that
you had no accurate idea where Ruby had been all day, and the only
things that you could remember were that he closed his business and he
had some recollection that he had been at his sister’s home for awhile.
You didn’t mention, I take it, to the FBI on the 24th——
Mr. SENATOR. As a matter of fact, I probably forgot to mention it now,
come to think of it, the synagogue and things like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t mention the synagogue. You didn’t mention that
he had been to the police station. You didn’t mention——
Mr. SENATOR. You must understand, like I told you before, you know,
when a man is in a shaken-up condition, it is true that you might say
that this should be fresh in my mind, but when a man is in a shaken
condition and nervous—and you can’t help but be nervous—so I may have
slipped up on some of the things that I probably couldn’t think of
momentarily when he was questioning me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it possible that the fact is that on the 24th you
really didn’t know, that it was sometime after the 24th that you
learned that Jack had been to the police station with sandwiches, and
that he had been to the synagogue, that Jack didn’t even tell you this
on Friday or Saturday?
Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t see him Friday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Saturday morning, that he didn’t tell you Saturday morning
that he had been to those places? Is it possible that Jack never told
you that?
Mr. SENATOR. No, no; he did tell me that. How else would I know? How
else would I have known that?
Mr. GRIFFIN. You might have learned it since November 24, by talking
with somebody or reading something.
Mr. SENATOR. Why would I want—let me ask you this—why would I want to
leave out that he went to the police station—if I were able to think of
it—or bringing sandwiches? Why would I want to leave out that he went
to the synagogue?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is why I am suggesting that you didn’t know that on
the 24th, that it wasn’t until later.
Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t know it on the 24th. I didn’t know it. I didn’t
see him. I didn’t know it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, on November 24, up until the time you were
interviewed by the FBI on November 24, you did not know that Jack had
been to the police station, and you did not know that he had been to
the synagogue.
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You learned about that sometime after the 24th.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I think I learned it before that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. See; what I am suggesting is that if you did learn
it before the 24th, this would have been something you would have
remembered.
Mr. SENATOR. You asked what makes something slip a man’s mind.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Wouldn’t you be more likely to remember he had been to the
police station than he had been to visit his sister? If a man had told
you on Saturday morning right after the President had been shot that
he had been to the police station, and had said anything about what he
had done there, wouldn’t that have been something that you would have
remembered as being important? You would have been curious, wouldn’t
you? You would have asked the man “What did you see down at the police
station? Who did you talk to down there?” After all, that was right
down there where Oswald was, and where the investigation was going on.
Mr. SENATOR. It is befuddling. I still think it was Saturday. There is
an incident I just happened to think of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Mr. SENATOR. After he had woken me up on Saturday morning, there was a
bunch of sandwiches still wrapped that hadn’t been distributed, and—I
don’t know—I had no idea how many he bought or how many he had made,
but he still come home with maybe 6, 8, 10, or 12 of those sandwiches.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of sandwiches were they?
Mr. SENATOR. I think they were corn beef and pastrami on rye, if I
remember right, on rye bread. This I do remember, and they were still
on the kitchen table, and as a matter of fact they were in two bags, if
I remember right. They were in two bags. I think he had some cake too,
that he bought in the delicatessen.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You saw that Saturday morning when you got up?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does that recall anything further to your mind?
Mr. SENATOR. No; now this here I never even told anybody. I never even
told this to anybody. This is the first time that I have ever exposed
this. It don’t matter who is questioning me, this is the first time.
Now why didn’t I think of this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is not so extraordinary.
Mr. SENATOR. No; you may say it is trivial or it may be trivial to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the kind of a thing that you might forget and that
is also the kind of thing that as you look back from this period of
time——
Mr. SENATOR. I have been trying to think as much as I could. Now I
gather I can remember this part, this one here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any discussion with Jack about those
sandwiches?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; he had been to the police station and he had passed
out a lot to various policemen or plainclothesmen. I don’t know who. I
don’t know who he passed them out to.
But it seems like I gather that he must have had an awful lot of these
made, or whatever it might have been. He must have had a slew of them
made. Now why I did it I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this possible, that all you would have learned from
him, you asked him “Where did you get these sandwiches” and he said “I
got them for the men at the police station but they didn’t eat them”?
Could that have been the conversation?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he passed out some; I know. He said he had passed out
some sandwiches. As a matter of fact he even took some to his sister.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He took some sandwiches to his sister? When did he take
the sandwiches to his sister?
Mr. SENATOR. That was sometime Friday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you learn that?
Mr. SENATOR. From Jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I suggest again——
Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t see his sister.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I suggest again that if Jack had told you that he actually
got into the police station and distributed those sandwiches to
policemen in the police station, it would have occurred to you to ask,
well, you know, what was going on in the investigation.
Mr. SENATOR. I didn’t ask him what was going on. As a matter of fact,
I don’t even know what part of the police station he was in, or any
locale of the police station he was in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you anything about seeing anybody?
Mr. SENATOR. He mentioned that he had gone to the police station and
gave out sandwiches. That is all I knew about it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention seeing anybody else except policemen at the
police station?
Mr. SENATOR. I think he had a glance at Oswald in one of the rooms, or
something like that, as he was going by or something of that nature. I
am not sure of this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you don’t know whether you knew that on the 24th or
not, do you, or whether this is something you read later on?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t remember. I just don’t remember. I can’t say “Yes”
or say “No,” or what rooms he was in. I don’t know just where he went
at the police station.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Whatever happened to all those sandwiches? Did you eat
them up?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, if I didn’t eat but one or two I would be a fool,
wouldn’t I? I mean look, I like corn beef and pastrami. I mean the
windup was when he got around to home, he didn’t have that many left
already.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many did you see in those paper bags? You said you saw
8 or 10 in the paper bags.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but I can’t eat 8 or 10 sandwiches.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s take a break.
(Short recess taken.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me now state for the record that we had a short break
here for refreshments, and Mr. Senator has had an opportunity to read a
document which is known as Exhibit 5402, which I had previously marked,
and in reviewing the documents which I have marked today, I find that
I have dated them April 23, 1964, when a look at the calendar tells me
that the correct date is April 22, 1964, and I have inked over the date
so that it now reads April 22, 1964, on Exhibits 5400, 5401, 5402, and
I have marked a further “Exhibit 5403,” which exhibit is a copy of an
FBI report prepared by Mr. Rawlings and Mr. Glonek, of an interview
that they had with Mr. Senator on December 19, 1963.
Now Mr. Senator, you have had an opportunity in this break period to
read over Exhibit 5402, which is a copy of a report prepared by Secret
Service Agent Elmer W. Moore which he had with you on December 3, 1963.
Have you had an opportunity to read that exhibit through?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I ask you as we did with the previous exhibit to indicate
if there are any changes or corrections or clarifications that you
would want to make in Mr. Moore’s report, and I specifically point
out again that what I am directing my attention to here is whether
Mr. Moore’s report is an accurate report of what you told him on that
day. I might also reiterate as we have at the beginning of every
session which has been resumed here that, of course, we are taking this
under the same procedures and formalities that we have had since the
beginning here, and that the oath which you took on Tuesday morning is
still in effect.
Mr. SENATOR. Now on this here, of course, this goes back many, many
years. This is just the location that is a location and not a name of a
person.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Point out what it is.
Mr. SENATOR. “About 1934 he returned to Gloversville and left there
with neighbors, the Sebring family to go to Florida.” Now, Sebring, it
is a city, not people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t leave with the Sebring family?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You left to go to Sebring, Fla.?
Mr. SENATOR. Went to Sebring, Fla.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you go to Sebring, Fla. with?
Mr. SENATOR. The name was Eggens.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They were neighbors from Gloversville?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; they were neighbors from Gloversville. They lived for
many, many years in Lake Placid, N.Y., and I went with them and, of
course, today their whereabouts—I know the mother is deceased—and where
they are I don’t know. I haven’t seen them in a zillion years.
“On August 21, 1941, he entered the Army Air Force and was assigned
serial number 12006042.” I probably should comment is off there. It
doesn’t really make any difference. “He served mainly as an aerial
armorer with the Fifth Bomber Command 33d Group in Australia and
Pacific Theater during World War Second.”
There is a correction on that. I was with the 22d Bomber Group 33d Bomb
Squadron. That is the only correction on that, if you want that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that is fine because we are happy to have that. In
fact why don’t you take your pen and make that correction right on the
piece of paper?
Mr. SENATOR. How can I get it on there, they are so close together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Cross out something and write it in.
Mr. SENATOR. To go through this whole thing I would have to say I was
with the Fifth Air Force, Fifth Bomber Command. Well, the Fifth Bomber
Command is there. Do you want Fifth Air Force?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there something that is inaccurate in there?
Mr. SENATOR. The only thing is I was with the 22d Bomb Group, 33d Bomb
Squadron.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So what you want to do is write out in the margin.
Mr. SENATOR. Do you want me to cross this out?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you just change the 33d Group to 33d Squadron.
Change group to squadron, and then add what the bomber group was.
Mr. SENATOR. 22d Bomber Group.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; with a little caret or asterisk being there to
indicate where you want it to go.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know how important it is, if you want the Fifth
Air Force before or we can eliminate it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In order to identify that group that you were in——
Mr. SENATOR. In other words, it relates this way. You start off Fifth
Air Force, Fifth Bomber Command, if you want this whole thing, 22d Bomb
Group when I was with the 33d Bomb Squadron if you want that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Write Fifth Air Force in.
Mr. SENATOR. Do you want that?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know where to put it. Do you want me to put it on
top here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.
Mr. SENATOR. Fifth Air Force comes first.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So we have edited this to read “He served mainly as an
aerial armorer with the Fifth Air Force, Fifth Bomber Command, 22d Bomb
Group, 33d Squadron in Australia and Pacific Theater during World War
II.” Why don’t you initial and date the changes?
Mr. SENATOR. Is one sufficient for the whole?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Put a set of initials and date by each one and remember it
is April 22.
Mr. SENATOR. I think there is one I put on the 23d come to think of it
somewheres on something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We will try to find that. I think you did make that
change. You didn’t date the previous change made on Exhibit 5401.
Mr. SENATOR. I am writing 4-23 here. It is 4-22. Can I put in here and
say “He was honorably discharged” or just “discharged satisfactory.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead, if you want to clarify it to say honorably
discharged.
Mr. SENATOR. There is a difference.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; there is and I can understand why you would want that
in there. Now you have made some other changes on here I notice. You
have added on page 2 of Agent Moore’s report in the first sentence the
word “Honorably” so that that sentence reads “He was honorably.”
Mr. SENATOR. I should say honorably discharged.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Honorably discharged as a staff sergeant on September
9, 1945. In the first full paragraph on this page, the last sentence
you have changed the spelling of the name Wexler from W-e-x-l-e-r to
W-e-c-h-s-l-e-r, and that is the name of the man to whom your former
wife is now married.
Mr. SENATOR. I am the one who gave him that other spelling because I
didn’t spell it right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In the second paragraph on that same page, the last
sentence, you have added the words “Texas Postcards and Novelty,
Dallas, Texas” before the words “Dexter Press, West Nyack, New York”
so that that sentence reads: “He is presently a salesman of colored
postcards for Texas Postcard and Novelty, Dallas, Texas, Dexter Press,
West Nyack, New York.” Now let me ask you this. Are the Texas Postcard
and Novelty Company and Dexter Press——
Mr. SENATOR. Excuse me, they make the cards, they print the cards.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So what you really do is you sell these cards for Dexter
Postcard?
Mr. SENATOR. No: I don’t sell them for Dexter.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You sell them for Texas Postcard and Novelty?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. From Dexter Press?
Mr. SENATOR. Dexter are the ones who make prints.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me add the word “from.” I have added the word “from.”
I will hand you back Mr. Moore’s report. Why don’t you continue on
through it and read whatever it is that you think should be changed and
then we will make the changes.
Mr. SENATOR. This “He made business calls and stopped for lunch at a
place called Jacques,” now shall I put in front of lunch——
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is understood you didn’t have anything to eat but had
something to drink. A cocktail or something?
Mr. SENATOR. I think I had two bottles of beer. Do you want that
changed?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you cross out “lunch” and say “two bottles of
beer.”
Mr. SENATOR. Now maybe I said I had lunch. I don’t even remember. I
ain’t going to question this. You know that I just changed that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You changed lunch to what? What did you write, two bottles
of beer?
Mr. SENATOR. “Two beers.” Just a misspelling of a street here. Do you
want that corrected?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; if you would.
Mr. SENATOR. With the same category as the beer place, the name of the
street.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, correct the spelling. What is the name? You
have changed the word Carol Street on page 3 from C-a-r-o-l to
C-a-r-r-o-l-l. That is fine.
Mr. SENATOR. Do you want that initialed?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; if you would please.
Mr. SENATOR. “He returned to the apartment and went to bed
approximately 10:30 p.m. He does not recall seeing Ruby again that
day.” It is not recall seeing him, I didn’t see him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you change recall to didn’t.
Mr. SENATOR. Now I stated here for the point of information before
that “Jack told him” which is me “that he had been at his sister Eva’s
place,” said that he had bought food for her.” In other words, when he
bought all this stuff there he bought her some too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, it was your understanding when you talked
with Agent Moore that Jack had bought the sandwiches and so forth
before he went to Eva Grant’s house on Friday night?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; now let me ask you this. When I am talking to them,
are they taking this word by word or what? Do you know? I don’t even
know myself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It depends. Of course I wasn’t at this interview.
Mr. SENATOR. I know that. This is why I asked you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They are obviously not taking it down word for word as our
court stenographer is here.
Mr. SENATOR. I know they do it in longhand which is tough. It is not
easy.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He is taking notes which hopefully are going to be
accurate. After all, these men are highly trained people.
Mr. SENATOR. I am certain they are.
Mr. GRIFFIN. They are trained to take notes.
Mr. SENATOR. I am certain they are.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And to do it as accurately as they can. But there are
mistakes that crop up.
Mr. SENATOR. Who isn’t fallible somewhere or another. I think there is
a misinterpretation of this word that “he had bought food for her.”
Brought food for her.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it make any difference?
Mr. SENATOR. Not in all reality, I don’t know, because when he bought
all this food, if you asked me how much he bought I don’t know but
apparently, I have been under the impression that he bought quite a
bit of things, because if he took food over to the police station, he
couldn’t go there with six or seven sandwiches I know if he was working
of that nature, to bring food over there. So I assumed there must have
been many, many sandwiches and pastries of some nature that he had
brought over there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am interested, Mr. Senator, in this. That even in this
interview with Mr. Moore on the 3d of December you don’t make any
reference about Jack telling you that he went to the police station.
Mr. SENATOR. Maybe I forgot that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that is why I ask you again if it is not possible—now
this interview was not under the same kind of pressure?
Mr. SENATOR. No; that is right. You are right on that. All I can say is
maybe it is just a thing that slipped my mind.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or is it possible that in fact all you remembered was that
Jack had said that he bought food for Eva, and that he hadn’t mentioned
anything about going to the police station?
Mr. SENATOR. No; this is the same time when he bought all this stuff,
when he bought these bags. Mind you, when I mentioned about these bags,
this is the first time that I have even thought about this to anybody
that I spoke to, see.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now keep in mind the distinction between what Jack——
Mr. SENATOR. Even though this thing slipped my mind all the way through
completely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but try to focus on this distinction, the difference
between what Jack told you on Friday night or Saturday morning, and
what you later learned some time afterward. I ask you if it isn’t
possible that you learned about Jack’s going to the police station
after you talked with Agent Moore, and that that is the reason that
you didn’t tell this to the police and you didn’t tell it to the FBI
and you didn’t tell it to Agent Moore, because you knew about the
sandwiches when you talked with Moore, and when you talked with the
FBI, and you knew about going to Eva’s, but at that point you didn’t
know of any connection between the sandwiches and the police station.
Mr. SENATOR. The only way that I can really express this, it could be
a probability and then it couldn’t, in other words, I can’t answer the
question truthfully and be sure. I say I am not sure. What else could I
say on that?
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, this is what we are trying to get at.
Mr. SENATOR. I still ain’t sure if I did or didn’t mind you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Because the thing that I want to explore here is whether——
Mr. SENATOR. But I knew about the sandwiches the next day because I saw
them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You knew about the sandwiches, right?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the thing I am trying to direct your attention at
is whether you knew about Jack’s visit to the police station and I
am suggesting to you that if you had known on the 23d or the 24th
about Jack’s visit to the police station, you would have had some
further conversation with Jack. If Jack had said, or if I had said
to you, “George, I just was down to the police station and I took
some sandwiches down there” on this particular day, why you would
have said to me, “Did you see Oswald? What was going on? What kind of
investigation?” That visit to the police station would have been a more
important thing than the sandwiches. So that if Jack really told you
this on Saturday, the 23d, I am suggesting that there might be some
further conversation that you and he had, because you would ask him
questions about what he saw, out of curiosity, and you don’t seem to
recall any such conversation.
Mr. SENATOR. It is not fresh in my mind right now. I am inclined to
think that he did, but if I had to say 100 percent I really can’t
answer you now. I just don’t remember now. I was sort of under the
impression that I was told. It is hazy in my mind. I can’t say yes or
no. I am not going to say no and I am not going to say yes that he did
or didn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any clear recollection?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of any conversation about his being down at the police
station?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t remember, so in other words this is a thing I
would have to leave in question. Here is a question that I am not even
sure of. “Senator said that Ruby was very hot about this article and
commented that Weissman did not spell his name as a Jew but if he were
a Jew he should be ashamed of himself.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your feeling about that now.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t ever remember telling him that. Now I don’t say
that I did or didn’t, but I don’t know why I had the reason to say that
he didn’t spell his name as a Jew. Wait a minute “that he did not spell
his name as a Jew” I just can’t figure why I would say that because
Bernard Weissman to me sounds Jewish no matter how I look at the name.
This is the part I don’t understand on this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your recollection that Jack was hot under the collar
about this ad?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, yes; oh, yes. This I remember he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You found that ad independently of Jack as I understand it.
Mr. SENATOR. I found that ad Thursday night when I bought the paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Thursday before the President arrived?
Mr. SENATOR. Or was it Friday? Thursday or Friday. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Something makes you think it was Thursday night?
Mr. SENATOR. Maybe, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is that that makes you think that?
Mr. SENATOR. Wait a minute. I may have bought this paper Thursday night
because it come out in the paper the day the President arrived when I
read it. Or did it come out Friday? I don’t remember. Was it Friday?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, I don’t know.
Mr. SENATOR. It was a Friday’s paper.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the Friday morning news hits the newsstands on
Thursday night, does it not?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now are you in the habit of picking up a morning newspaper
the night before?
Mr. SENATOR. It all depends the hour. If I am out at that hour and if
the paper is out at that hour.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did the night before the President
came to Dallas?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know what I did Thursday at all. I don’t know
what I did. Now there is a little twist in the thing right now. After
we saw the paper and the poster, he has just got this twisted around.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Read what he has and then let’s talk about it.
Mr. SENATOR. “They went to the Southland Hotel Coffee Shop and had
coffee, Ruby drinking grapefruit juice. While there Ruby reread the ad
and made comments about it. They left the coffee shop and went to the
main Dallas post office on Ervay where Ruby rang the night bell.” Then
it continues, but the thing is this is reversed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What you are saying is that you went to the post office
before you had coffee?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. This is reversed. Now does the reversal mean anything?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. There is a bunch that you have to reverse in this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s get it straight then as to what actually happened
there.
Mr. SENATOR. You want to reread it from here? It sounds all right
except the reversal.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You read everything that is wrong, everything that is
reversed and so forth and then we will try to put it in proper order.
Mr. SENATOR. The only thing I can do is read the reversal and leave the
other as it is. In other words, when he is doing this he would have to
say this was first and the other was last. I don’t know how to do it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You read the text that is improper.
Mr. SENATOR. In other words, take these down in a line, is that what
you mean?
Mr. GRIFFIN. From the point that it gets out of order.
Mr. SENATOR. What I just read where it was out of order?
Mr. GRIFFIN. The only two things out of order, let me understand this,
are that you went to the post office before you went to the Southland
Hotel?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And so the discussion you had at the Southland Hotel about
the Weissman ad occurred after you saw the Earl Warren sign and after
you went to the post office?
Mr. SENATOR. That is right. Now do you want some change in here?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I think that is clear.
Mr. SENATOR. Let me finish the balance of this. That whole complete
thing is right now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We have corrected it on the record?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes. When he is quoting about a certain time, if it is an
hour off or a half hour off, is there any difference?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if you have——
Mr. SENATOR. He says about which is all right. He has got a time there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think your recollection now is more accurate.
Mr. SENATOR. No, no. All I want to know when it says about. In other
words, that means approximately a certain time, in that area, is that
right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.
Mr. SENATOR. That is all. Let me ask you on something like this. Maybe
I ain’t reading this correct. “He said the fact that Ruby had the dog
Sheba to which he was very attached in the car when he went to the
police station alone would indicate that he intended to return soon.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. What is unclear about that?
Mr. SENATOR. It sounds like I was telling him that he went to the
police station. This is the way it sounds to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; it sounds to me like you are saying to Agent Moore
that because Jack had Sheba with him down there at the police station,
you draw the conclusion that Jack just went down there on a casual
basis and intended to come back.
Mr. SENATOR. All I know is that when he left the house he had Sheba
with him. That I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you draw any particular significance about his
having Sheba with him? Does the fact that he had Sheba with him suggest
something to you about Jack planning to kill Oswald and not planning——
Mr. SENATOR. I’ll tell you how this sounds to me like unless I’m not
reading it. It sounds like I told him that when Jack went to the police
office he had Sheba with him. That is the way it sounds to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; what Agent Moore, I think, is suggesting, at least the
way I read it——
Mr. SENATOR. You read it. Start with “He said.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, let’s read the sentence before that.
“Senator said there were several things that may not have come to the
attention of the authorities which would indicate to him that Ruby had
not planned to shoot Oswald. He said the fact that Ruby had the dog
Sheba to which he was very attached in the car when he went to the
police station alone would indicate that he intended to return soon.
Also, the fact that he had the cash receipts from the club in the car.
Senator said he was convinced that Ruby had emotionally worked himself
up to such a pitch that when he saw Oswald in the basement of the
police station he went out of his head.”
Now as I read those sentences, what you are saying is that if anybody
were to learn of all of the facts that took place they should pay
particular attention to the fact that Ruby had his dog Sheba in the car
when he went to the police station, because that indicates that Ruby
intended to come back from the police station before he went down there.
Do you still feel that way?
Mr. SENATOR. That he intended to come back?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That Ruby, if Ruby had intended—are you saying that if
Ruby had intended to shoot Oswald before he drove down to the police
station, he wouldn’t have taken Sheba along?
Mr. SENATOR. That isn’t what I said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is not what you said?
Mr. SENATOR. No. I said I read that like it sounds to me. I must be
reading it wrong but it sounds to me like I said he was going to the
police station with Sheba.
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; we understand that you are not saying that at all.
What I am asking you is if you mean to say that in your mind Jack Ruby
would not have taken Sheba down to the police station with him if Jack
Ruby ever intended to shoot Oswald.
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think he would; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But do you think he might have anyhow?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know. I couldn’t answer that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you saying now as you think about this further, the
fact that he had the dog with him is not an overriding fact in deciding
whether Jack had any plan to shoot Oswald before he went down there?
Mr. SENATOR. To my knowledge I would say that he had definitely no
plans. Now the money part——
Mr. GRIFFIN. But would you say this, that if Jack Ruby had planned,
let’s assume for the sake of argument that Jack Ruby planned to kill
Oswald before he went down to the police station. Now if Jack had that
plan in his mind, are you saying he never would have taken Sheba along
with him?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I definitely don’t think he would ever take the dog
with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would he have done with the dog?
Mr. SENATOR. I assume he would have probably, wherever he was going
with the dog, maybe he was going to the club or what it is.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that?
Mr. SENATOR. What?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that?
Mr. SENATOR. Well, all I can say is I know how much he likes that dog,
and the dog is always with him, no matter where he goes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any reason why Jack——
Mr. SENATOR. No particular reason.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack wouldn’t figure that you or somebody else wouldn’t
have picked that dog up later and taken care of it?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or isn’t it possible that Jack just at this point forgot
about the consequences to the dog?
Mr. SENATOR. I can’t even answer that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then would you say that the mere fact that Jack had Sheba
with him doesn’t prove one way or another whether he planned to kill
Oswald?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think he planned nohow.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I know you don’t think that, but I want to know what
significance we should put on the fact that he had Sheba with him. As I
understand what you have been saying now, one could draw the conclusion
that simply because he had Sheba with him doesn’t prove conclusively
one way or another that he had a plan or didn’t have a plan.
Mr. SENATOR. I can’t conceive anyhow that this man had any plans, nohow.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you knew that Jack Ruby had taken Sheba to the club and
locked her in the club and left instructions for somebody to take care
of Sheba, would that affect your attitude as to whether Jack planned to
kill Oswald or not? Would you still say——
Mr. SENATOR. I would say it would still be of the same nature having
the dog. I don’t think he would do anything like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You just don’t think he planned to kill Oswald?
Mr. SENATOR. No; definitely not. I just never could visualize it. I
can’t visualize anything like this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You also say in this, Moore also reports in this statement
this language: “Also the fact that he had the cash receipts from the
club in the car.” Now I take it from that language that you are saying
that you also think that Jack would have taken the cash receipts back
to the club if he had planned to kill Oswald?
Mr. SENATOR. The only thing I can say is that I would have to guess
on my own and say I can only surmise that he wouldn’t have had any
cash with him. That is what I would guess. I don’t know. First of all,
he carries money both ways, see. Now Jack has always been under the
impression wherever he goes, daytime or nighttime, that money, I don’t
say all his money but a certain part of money, what ever he puts in, is
safe in the trunk. He feels it is safe in the trunk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s suppose Jack Ruby had done this. Let’s suppose he
had taken his dog Sheba to the Carousel Club, left a note for somebody
as to how to take care of Sheba, and had taken all the money out of the
back of his car and locked it in the safe at the Carousel Club.
Mr. SENATOR. What safe?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn’t he have a safe there?
Mr. SENATOR. He bought a safe but it was never fixed. He bought a safe,
I’ll tell you the kind of a safe he bought. To my knowledge it has
never been put to use. He bought a safe that fits into the ground. Did
you ever see these little round things that fit into the——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Well, this thing never materialized because the structure
was never made for the safe, never made into the ground. Now if he ever
used the safe I don’t even know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack ever put his money——
Mr. SENATOR. Excuse me. The reason I say I feel he didn’t, which I
really don’t know, I don’t think he did, because the safe was able to
be carried. It wasn’t that big thing but when you cement it around you
can’t get to it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this. Was Jack in the habit of putting his
money in the bank?
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, Jack’s safe was his car?
Mr. SENATOR. Not necessarily. He had it in his car, he had it in his
pocket, and he had it around the house.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you stated a while ago that Jack felt that if he had
the money locked in the trunk of the car that was as good as being in
the safe?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; I did, but I didn’t say all the monies. I said a
certain part of the monies. Now what part of it I don’t know, because I
know he carried some in there. I know he carried some in his pocket. I
know he leaves some at home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he leave any at home on the 24th?
Mr. SENATOR. If he did I don’t know. I’ll tell you why, the reason I
say that is because he has in the living room that has got one of these
self-locks. Did you ever see these little locks on a door that you can
lock. You know, you can sort of snip it off? It comes off, whatever
kind of lock you call it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. He has one of them. He had one of them in the living room.
See, his apartment that night was confiscated. I don’t know if it was
the local police. I don’t know who got in there. Somebody got in there,
see.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But it certainly wasn’t unusual, was it, for Jack to carry
all of his money on his person and in his car?
Mr. SENATOR. No; he has done that many times. But I’ll tell you, when
he is putting the money in his car he very seldom ever left it there
for such a lengthy time like that. But this was his safest place as far
as not carrying it all in his pocket.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he felt that keeping it in the car was safer than
keeping it in the house.
Mr. SENATOR. This I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you say this was the longest time that you can
remember Jack carrying a lot or that much money around with him?
Mr. SENATOR. Oh, no; I never said that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you mean to say?
Mr. SENATOR. I never said that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, there have been times when Jack, I take it
there have been periods of 3 days or more when Jack has carried $2,000
or $3,000?
Mr. SENATOR. Or more. No; this is an every day occurrence with him.
This is a thing that materialized 7 days a week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So there is nothing unusual about Jack Ruby having all
that money in his automobile.
Mr. SENATOR. No; it is always like that. Now if he has any money in
the bank, I mean I can’t quote that because I don’t see that. See,
he carries this money around 7 days a week. Now what he has in the
bank, of course, I have quoted you that once before, I think that was
yesterday, I don’t know what he has got. Only when you ask what bank he
has, when I mentioned the Merchants State Bank, I don’t know if the guy
has got $40 in there or $500, you know what I mean? I don’t know.
Or whatever he has had in there or how he has had it. See, this is an
unusual man when it comes to this money bit. I don’t know how many
times he asked me, “George, where is my money?” making me feel like I
took it but he always misplaced it and always found it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this a large sum of money that he misplaced?
Mr. SENATOR. Sometimes it could be missing $200 or $300 or $400, I
don’t know. Whatever the stake is, he has about 4, 5 or 6 different
stakes in different pockets. This man don’t remember where the money
is. This may sound crazy but it is true.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack own any real estate?
Mr. SENATOR. No; what is he going to use for money for the real estate?
A lot of people are under the impression that Jack had a lot of money.
Jack didn’t. Jack was, what would you classify him, as a walking bank?
Mr. GRIFFIN. He carried all his money on his person regardless of how
much it was.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; this man was making who knows, I don’t know how much
money he has got and I can’t break it down and say he is carrying 10, 5
or whatever. Who knows what he has got or how much it is. But there has
been 2, 3, 4, maybe more.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What, hundred or thousand dollars?
Mr. SENATOR. Thousands, whatever it is. Of course, as I told you, this
all goes to the rent, the help, the electricity, you know, all the
utilities and things. But he is a walking bank.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this common knowledge that he carried all this money
around?
Mr. SENATOR. That was common knowledge to me. How many other people
knew it I don’t know but I am certain other people knew it. Look, when
the help all got paid off they were all paid off in cash. When they
wanted to borrow money they were all paid off in cash. Just like here I
can’t quote how much money he had at any time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now let me ask you to read over what I have
marked as Washington, D.C., April 22, 1964, George Senator Deposition,
Exhibit 5403, and I signed that. It is the report of Agents Rawlings
and Glonek. Would you read that over, and tell me, go through that in
the same fashion as we have with the others.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any additions, corrections, or explanations that
you feel ought to be made to Exhibit 5403?
Mr. SENATOR. Let me go through this fast. I think there aren’t but let
me make sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you before we get into this, was that interview
made at your request?
Mr. SENATOR. No; I was sent for. Why would I request it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know. Some people call the FBI and tell them they
have something more to tell them.
Mr. SENATOR. No; I was sent for. I have had a pretty good amount of
questioning you know. I, like any other individual of the nature that I
am, I don’t think is too happy about all this. And who would be?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now that you raise that, we might get on the record the
fact that I believe you have expressed to me at lunch during the last
2 days that you feel that this is an unfortunate circumstance in your
life.
Mr. SENATOR. Certainly it is. It ain’t going to do my life any good.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you explain? Would you want to convey some of the
feelings here on the record that you gave to me?
Mr. SENATOR. I feel I will always be pointed at, if anybody knows my
name of the nature of the conditions that surrounds me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You feel a certain amount of shame or disgrace?
Mr. SENATOR. No; let me say there will probably be a disturbance.
They will always point to Jack Ruby’s roommate, Jack Ruby’s roommate,
something of that nature, you know. What does phonetic mean?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That means that they don’t know whether the spelling is
correct, but without knowing how to correctly spell it that is the way
they would write it, from the sound. Mr. Senator, as you read through
that if you come to anything that you think ought to be modified or
changed, why, point it out, because I assume that the two pages that
you have read so far——
Mr. SENATOR. I am reading it pretty fast. I am a little bit on the
punchy side, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you want us to walk out and sort of relieve your mind.
Mr. SENATOR. No; there is one item in here where it states “He carried
his money in a sack.” This is only partial. It was in his pockets, in
the sack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The trunk of the car?
Mr. SENATOR. The trunk of the car. No, no; mind you if it is in the
sack it goes in the trunk of the car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything else in that interview report that you would want
to——
Mr. SENATOR. No; I don’t know if this means anything, it is in his
pocket, to you I mean. I don’t know. This says here where he took the
revolver and placed it on the bag on top of the money. This is not
always——
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he place on the bag on top of the money?
Mr. SENATOR. The gun on top of the moneybag. “Placed it in the bag on
top of the money.” To me it is not important. The gun may be next to it
or something like that, who knows where he put it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now let me ask you a couple of closing questions. One
thing we haven’t talked about here. That was, how many sets of keys did
Jack Ruby have?
Mr. SENATOR. To the clubs?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have more than one key chain?
Mr. SENATOR. I think he had two small ones. I think one for the car,
I’m not sure now. He had keys but I don’t know what they all fit you
know. I think he had one for the car and I think one for the place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he keep all of his car keys on one ring or did he have
them on two different rings?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t know?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have one billfold or more than one billfold?
Mr. SENATOR. I have never seen a billfold.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You have never seen his billfold?
Mr. SENATOR. You mean to carry his paper money in billfolds? No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Identification and things like that. Did he have a wallet?
Mr. SENATOR. I don’t think he ever had a wallet. I don’t recall seeing
any.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see his driver’s license?
Mr. SENATOR. Did I ever see his driver’s license?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Or social security.
Mr. SENATOR. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When he got undressed at night did he put his
billfold—what did he do with his——
Mr. SENATOR. I never seen his billfold. I think he carries them—what he
carried these things in, he had a little thing, you know a little thing
that opened up and you slide it to one side or the other, sort of like
what, a little money fold.
Mr. HUBERT. Sort of like an accordian?
Mr. SENATOR. No; it didn’t even open up like that. In other words it
opened up like a covered book or one of these little things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have identification in that?
Mr. SENATOR. I never seen into it. It could be.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it the type of thing you could put identification in?
Mr. SENATOR. I am certain he probably could have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize it if you saw it?
Mr. SENATOR. The thing?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that you describe.
Mr. SENATOR. I am not sure. I might. I couldn’t say positive. As a
matter of fact even the coloration, I wouldn’t know if it was green or
black.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any habit of leaving car keys in his
automobile that you know of?
Mr. SENATOR. I think only at the garage. See, the garage is right
downstairs from the club next door, which they watch his car constantly
because he has rented this place on a monthly basis which he has had
for I don’t know how long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And where would he leave the keys then, in the ignition?
Mr. SENATOR. I think the keys were left in the ignition.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if you ever had occasion to look in the
glove compartment of Jack’s car?
Mr. SENATOR. I have looked at it but it is such a jingle-jangle there
that it didn’t mean anything as far as opening it up. There was so much
gook in there, do you know what I mean?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Did you ever have any occasion to look in the trunk
of his car?
Mr. SENATOR. I have seen the trunk open; yes, and that is another slop
house, with a bunch of garbage in there. I told him a thousand times
“How can you open your trunk and not clean it up? How can you keep that
garbage in there.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things would he keep in there?
Mr. SENATOR. There would be papers. In other words, things weren’t
placed. You take a tire, you think the tire is in the right place? It
could be any place in that thing there, and all the other garbage that
he had in there, and papers, whatever it is. He kept his car like he
kept his apartment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any knowledge, or do you——
Mr. SENATOR. I have never gone through his trunk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As to what he had in there?
Mr. SENATOR. In the trunk?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. SENATOR. No. To me it looked like a bunch of garbage he had in
there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever had occasion to drive his automobile?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; but very seldom because he didn’t want me to handle
it and I’ll tell you why. No insurance. That is why he didn’t want me
to drive his car. Very seldom was I ever allowed to drive that car.
Mr. GRIFFIN. On the occasions when you drove his automobile, from where
did you get the automobile keys?
Mr. SENATOR. From him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Off of his person?
Mr. SENATOR. Yes; from the house, yes, when he was home. And sometimes
I would drive for him when he is tired, like he feels he is going
to fall asleep, and I have done this you know from the club to the
apartment where he feels he maybe fall asleep at the wheel. This is
one of the things where he wouldn’t let me drive because he had no
insurance, and I wasn’t anxious to drive the car on account of that
either.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you and I have had lunch together.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And we have had breaks here and on these occasions we have
talked and you have talked with Mr. Hubert also on these occasions. Is
there anything that we talked with you about in these times when we
haven’t had a court reporter present that we haven’t covered here in
our deposition?
Mr. SENATOR. It would be hard for me to think what you have left out,
you know. I have never had a questioning like this in my life before.
When I originally came down here I thought I would only be here—I
thought the questioning would probably be similar to being questioned
by the FBI or the Secret Service. First of all how was I to know? What
was I to expect, see? I just couldn’t believe that I would be here 2
days. I couldn’t think how it was possible where you could ask me so
many questions, both of you.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case you don’t recall anything dealing with the
case, an aspect of it that was the subject of a conversation which has
not been discussed on the record?
Mr. SENATOR. Offhand, I can’t. Offhand, I just can’t think of any
because I think you all know more than I know. If you can remember the
Times Square Cafeteria you know more than I know. You are not going to
put that too, are you?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me then ask this one final question.
Mr. SENATOR. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If anything should come to your attention in the future,
which pertains to the Ruby case that could be of assistance to us, will
you contact somebody in the Government and let them know so that we can
have a complete record here. He is nodding his head yes.
Mr. SENATOR. Because he can’t write the nod down there?
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much indeed for coming.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to say to him that it has been a pleasure to talk
with you; we think your cooperation has been most helpful.
TESTIMONY OF NANCY PERRIN RICH
The testimony of Nancy Perrin Rich was taken at 11 a.m., on June 2,
1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W.
Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s
Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich.
Mrs. Rich, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy.
Under the provisions of the President’s Executive Order No. 11130,
dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress 137, and the
rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance
with that Executive order and that resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mrs. Rich, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, any
participation in that death, or the death of President Kennedy by
Jack Ruby, certain particular activities of Jack Ruby which you have
heretofore told the FBI, and other pertinent facts you may know about
the general inquiry.
Now, Mrs. Rich, I think you appear today here by virtue of a letter
written to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of
the President’s Commission, is that right?
Mrs. RICH. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And that—when did you receive that letter?
Mrs. RICH. I actually received in my hands the letter yesterday,
Monday, the 1st. I received notification of it via a telephone call
from Mr. Fahety of the FBI Bureau, Boston, notifying me of it.
It was sent—and at this time I would like to state—and opened by
Mr. Rod Kennett, of Executive Limited, 100 Boylston Street, Boston,
and there was no possible way that letter could have been opened
erroneously. It could not have even by any stretch of the imagination
been misconstrued as being office literature. It was personally
addressed to me, with the President’s Commission on it.
I want that in the record.
Mr. HUBERT. It is.
Mrs. RICH. I also want it in the record I came here of my own free will.
Also that I don’t want it known and that I would like Kennett cautioned
to be quiet about this. I want someone to caution the Kennetts to
keep quiet about this. Rod opened the letter, and he has been telling
everybody in Boston about it. I don’t particularly want it known.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I am not in a position to pass upon your request. But
I am quite certain that the Commission will take it into account.
Mrs. RICH. I would appreciate it, because of some extracurricular work
that I do—it is not feasible for anyone to know that I go before any
kind of commission, for anything.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, let me get back to this. Under the rules adopted
by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3 day written notice prior
to the taking of this deposition. But the rules also provide that a
witness may waive the 3-day written notice if he so desires. And I ask
you now if you wish to waive the 3-day notice.
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I will waive it.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you stand, please, so I may administer the oath?
Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are
about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth?
Mrs. RICH. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name?
Mrs. RICH. Nancy Elaine Perrin Rich.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that you recently married.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your husband’s name?
Mrs. RICH. Francis L. Rich.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?
Mrs. RICH. No. 16 River Road, Hanover, Mass.
Mr. HUBERT. When were you married?
Mrs. RICH. April 11, 1964.
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to that time, I think you had been married to a man
by the name of Perrin.
Mrs. RICH. Robert L. Perrin.
Mr. HUBERT. And he died?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When?
Mrs. RICH. August 29, 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mrs. RICH. New Orleans.
Mr. HUBERT. And you had been married prior to that time?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I had.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of the husband you were married to prior
to the time you married Mr. Perrin?
Mrs. RICH. Husbands, in plural. Louis——
Mr. HUBERT. You mean there are more than one?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Give us the names.
Mrs. RICH. Louis Edward Musachio.
Mr. HUBERT. Before you pass away from him to the other husband, would
you tell us how your marriage was dissolved?
Mrs. RICH. By divorce.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he your first husband?
Mrs. RICH. He was my second.
Mr. HUBERT. Your second husband. And is he still alive?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I gather.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where he lives?
Mrs. RICH. No; I don’t. The last known address was Lackland Air Force
Base. I believe he is retired out of the service since then.
Mr. HUBERT. What business was he in?
Mrs. RICH. Air Force, a sergeant.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you married to him?
Mrs. RICH. Married, I couldn’t exactly say. I guess a year. I actually
lived with him about 9 months. Eight of those were spent on various—he
spent in various hospitals, including Walter Reed here, for operations,
and in the psychiatric locked ward.
Mr. HUBERT. When were you divorced from him?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, dear. 1961, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mrs. RICH. In the county of Adams, city of Brighton, Colo.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you married to him?
Mrs. RICH. I was married at L. G. Hanscomb Air Force Base, Bedford,
Mass.
Mr. HUBERT. What about your first husband?
Mrs. RICH. My first husband was Charles G. Wilson. He was——
Mr. HUBERT. When did you marry him, and where?
Mrs. RICH. Well, I married him in Berwick, Maine, in 1953.
Mr. HUBERT. And how was that marriage dissolved?
Mrs. RICH. In divorce.
Mr. HUBERT. When and where?
Mrs. RICH. 1955, in Biddeford, Maine.
Mr. HUBERT. And how old are you, Ma’am?
Mrs. RICH. I am 27.
Mr. HUBERT. And what is your present occupation?
Mrs. RICH. Housewife.
Mr. HUBERT. You do not work for Executives Unlimited?
Mrs. RICH. Not any more.
Mr. HUBERT. You did work for them?
Mrs. RICH. I did.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work for them?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, about 3 months.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you cease working for them?
Mrs. RICH. Upon my marriage.
Mr. HUBERT. Which is April 11?
Mrs. RICH. April 11.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of business was that?
Mrs. RICH. An employment agency.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is it located?
Mrs. RICH. 100 Boylston Street, Boston, Mass., Suite 309.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any children?
Mrs. RICH. I have four.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you state their ages and tell us by which husband
they were born?
Mrs. RICH. I will start with my youngest. Diedre Pilar Perrin, age 4.
Mr. HUBERT. And she is the daughter of——
Mrs. RICH. Robert L. Perrin.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mrs. RICH. Felicia Helen Musachio, whereabouts unknown, by Louis Edward
Musachio.
Mr. HUBERT. How old is she?
Mrs. RICH. She would be 5.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you say whereabouts unknown, you mean you do not
know the whereabouts of the child or of her father?
Mrs. RICH. Both. She was, to quote the FBI, not kidnapped, childnapped.
Although I hold legal custody of her, I cannot find her.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Will you go on to the others?
Mrs. RICH. Brian Russell Wilson, age 7, and Valerie Dawn Wilson, age
10, both by Charles G. Wilson.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do these children live?
Mrs. RICH. The two Wilsons reside in Biddeford, Maine, with my parents.
Mr. HUBERT. Your father and mother?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct. The whereabouts of Felicia is unknown. And
Deidre Perrin resides with me.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your present husband’s occupation?
Mrs. RICH. He is the owner of North Quincy Taxi Co.
Mr. HUBERT. That is located——
Mrs. RICH. In Quincy, Mass.
Mr. HUBERT. How long has he been so occupied?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, 20 years.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the occupation of Robert Perrin?
Mrs. RICH. Many things, from a master mechanic, on heavy equipment,
cats, et cetera, to a master foundry worker, patternmaker, moulder, to
running a foundry.
Mr. HUBERT. And other things?
Mrs. RICH. A writer, contracted by the old Street and Smith Co.
Mr. HUBERT. A writer?
Mrs. RICH. He is an author, short stories. Anything beyond that, I
couldn’t tell you, because I don’t know how much is true of what he
told me of his past.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he tell you of his past?
Mrs. RICH. May I ask a question?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; if you wish.
Mrs. RICH. All of this is confidential?
Mr. HUBERT. I cannot give you the assurance that it is.
Mrs. RICH. Meaning this would not be publicized for the entire world,
so to speak. The average person outside of who it directly would be
reported to.
Mr. HUBERT. I cannot give you the assurance that you ask for on that
point. If you would prefer not to answer the question, in the light of
your feelings about it, and the statement I have just made to you, then
we can pass on to another point.
Mrs. RICH. Let me ask you this. Is it pertinent and important that you
know?
Mrs. HUBERT. Well, yes.
Mrs. RICH. Very well. Well, he claimed to——
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you understand, I am not giving you any assurance
that there will not be available to the public a transcript of this
testimony.
Mrs. RICH. I understand this. I thoroughly understand this.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mrs. RICH. Well, he claimed to have worked for Jack Dragna, presently
residing at San Quentin.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say he is in the penitentiary?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know for what offense?
Mrs. RICH. Income tax evasion. I suppose. I don’t know for sure.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mrs. RICH. Let me state at this time that half of what I am about
to say—I am sorry—all of what I am about to say is hearsay. Half, I
believe.
Mr. HUBERT. We understand that. You are telling us what he told you he
had done in the past, but that you don’t know for sure whether it is
true.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct. But I want that in the record. That he did
everything from handle Dragna’s call girls to be a heavy, so to speak.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by a heavy?
Mrs. RICH. Well, bodyguard.
Mr. HUBERT. Bodyguard for whom?
Mrs. RICH. Jack Dragna, and various subsequent members, shall we say,
of the organization that used to come into California.
Mr. HUBERT. What organization was that?
Mrs. RICH. Call it by what you will—syndicate, Mafia.
Mr. HUBERT. Who were some of the people involved?
Mrs. RICH. I could not tell you. I do know that he mentioned that he
personally knew Mickey Cohen and Virginia Hill.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know any other names?
Mrs. RICH. Jimmy Gilreath.
Mr. HUBERT. Would G-i-l-r-e-a-t-h be about right?
Mrs. RICH. I would assume so.
Mr. HUBERT. So what you are telling us is that your former husband, now
deceased, Robert Perrin, had told you that among other things he acted
as bodyguard for certain members of a syndicate, as you call it, and
you have named, I think, four people who belonged to the syndicate.
Mrs. RICH. Supposedly, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And what was the syndicate about, from what you learned
from your husband?
Mrs. RICH. Well, everything from prostitution to illegal gambling to
narcotics.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, all of this you know by hearsay alone?
Mrs. RICH. By hearsay alone.
Mr. HUBERT. I ask you that question because a moment ago you said that
half of what you said was hearsay.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And I assume that the other half was not.
Mrs. RICH. I do know this, that he claimed that he ran guns—this was
years ago, when Franco was coming into power. I do know this to be a
fact, because he spent time in jail there.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did he spend time in jail?
Mrs. RICH. In Spain. I do know he fought for both sides, as a
professional soldier.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say you know that, I take it that you mean that he
told you so.
Mrs. RICH. No; I do not mean that, sir. I mean I have seen written
proof of this statement.
Mr. HUBERT. Such as what?
Mrs. RICH. Such as a prison record. Now, let me qualify that. I have
seen said statement on record, call it what you may. Now, how authentic
it was, I cannot swear to it.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean he showed you a prison record?
Mrs. RICH. I found it. From stuff in Spain—both Madrid, and a place
called Consuela.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a prison record was it?
Mrs. RICH. It wasn’t as you would think of a prison record. It was
merely a piece of paper in Spanish with a list of articles on it that
was on his person at the time he was arrested. Another one was of a
release signed by a Teniente Enriquez, which would be a lieutenant
here, at the Madrid Secreto Servicio.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you better spell all that out, because you are
using a foreign language, and I am not sure that the reporter can get
it except by the sound.
Mrs. RICH. All right. To clarify this, it was written in Spanish.
I will quote it in English. “An article list, signed by Lieutenant
Enriquez.”
Mr. HUBERT. That is his last name?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; a release signed by someone in the Secret Service,
which is comparable to our detective system on a city police force.
Mr. HUBERT. It was a lease of what?
Mrs. RICH. A release.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to him about these documents?
Mrs. RICH. He seemed quite proud of the fact.
Mr. HUBERT. I gather from that that you did talk to him about it?
Mrs. RICH. I did. Quite frankly, I asked him what in the heck it was
all about. At that time, he claimed, he said, “Well, you won’t believe
me. I wasn’t making it up.” He claimed he ran guns and used to pilot a
small boat.
Mr. HUBERT. Ran guns where?
Mrs. RICH. Into Spain, for Franco.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the date of that document? Did it have any
date on it?
Mrs. RICH. I would say it was in the late thirties, I wouldn’t be sure,
late thirties or early forties. It was either just prior to him going
into the United States Army or after he was released. Now, I cannot be
sure on that.
Mr. HUBERT. You think that it could not have been earlier than, say,
1935?
Mrs. RICH. No, it could not have.
Mr. HUBERT. Why are you sure of that?
Mrs. RICH. For the simple reason he was born in 1920. It couldn’t have
been much prior to 1935. It was either late thirties or early forties.
Again, I would like to, for the record, state that my husband was a
writer.
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Perrin now?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. And had a vivid imagination, as most writers do.
Whether or not these were authentic documents, I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he die a natural death?
Mrs. RICH. Suicide. The coroner’s report was arsenic. I also would
like to state for the record at this time after my husband’s death the
Veterans’ Administration Hospital, I believe it is the one in Denver,
that finally came up with the report, came up with the report that my
husband was discharged from the service for hysteria, and had a history
of mental disturbance.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you living with him at the time he died?
Mrs. RICH. I was.
Mr. HUBERT. You state to us now that the coroner’s report in New
Orleans, I suppose——
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Showed that his death was caused by arsenic voluntarily
consumed, right?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you lived part of the time that you were married to
Perrin in Dallas, did you not?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. Why I am hesitant—I would like to clarify that
statement. I went to Dallas seeking Mr. Perrin. He had left me.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were you living when he left you?
Mrs. RICH. We were living in Belmont, Mass.
Mr. HUBERT. What address?
Mrs. RICH. No. 11 Holden Road.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after he left you did you seek him out in Dallas?
Mrs. RICH. I was in New Hampshire with the state legislature at the
time. I was doing public relations. And I had just obtained a job, a
position for him, and I telephoned to Massachusetts to tell him to come
on down, and there was no answer. And I had a feeling that something
was wrong. So I hightailed it back to Massachusetts, and there was a
note. And the note said that he was going to Dallas. I called and he
wasn’t there. I called halfway over the United States, thinking of
places he told me he had been, and I couldn’t find him.
Mr. HUBERT. What place did you call in Dallas?
Mrs. RICH. I called the police department and a foundry he had
mentioned in a letter, and had read the name of a gentleman he had
mentioned at this time whose name eludes me—Youngblood—I take it back.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember his first name?
Mrs. RICH. No; I don’t. But my husband claimed—and I couldn’t ask him,
because if he was he couldn’t have told me—claimed he was some sort of
a Government agent, which was in all probability true.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you contact Mr. Youngblood?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; he hadn’t seen him. Then I proceeded to call Kansas
City and various other points I thought he might be.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you actually contact the Dallas Police Department?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any report from them?
Mrs. RICH. Except that he wasn’t there. Or that they didn’t know he was
there.
Mr. HUBERT. They did report that fact to you?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How did they do so?
Mrs. RICH. By phone.
Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.
Mrs. RICH. I then informed him that I would be there, which I did.
Subsequently, Mr. Perrin—and I will never understand——
Mr. HUBERT. How long after the events you have just told us about, to
wit, your coming home and finding that he wasn’t there—how long after
those events did you go to Dallas?
Mrs. RICH. Approximately 1 week.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. When was that?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, gosh. That was in, I believe, May. I can’t give you the
exact month. But I believe it was in May.
Mr. HUBERT. Of what year?
Mrs. RICH. Of 1961. Or was it 1962? ’62. I am sorry—1962.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long—did you find Mr. Perrin?
Mrs. RICH. Again in a way. He wasn’t in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was he?
Mrs. RICH. Well, afterwards, when he arrived in Dallas, I found out
that he had been in South Bend, Ind., with my secretary.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, when did you meet him in Dallas?
Mrs. RICH. He wrote mother, found out where I was—and came to Dallas, I
believe, it would be around July.
Mr. HUBERT. Of 1962?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. So you had been there alone from May of 1962 until July of
1962?
Mrs. RICH. I am giving approximate dates, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when he did arrive, what happened?
Mrs. RICH. Just like nothing had happened. Everything was fine.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean there was a reconciliation between you?
Mrs. RICH. I loved my husband very much.
Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, you proceeded to live together as husband
and wife?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How much education have you had, Mrs. Rich?
Mrs. RICH. I have had 3 years of high school.
Mr. HUBERT. What high school?
Mrs. RICH. Biddeford High, in Biddeford, Maine.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave there?
Mrs. RICH. I left when I was 16. That would be in 1954—1953—I am sorry.
And I got married, and I go back, and I drop out because I am going to
have a child. Then after I have the child I go back, and I am doubling
up on my courses and could have graduated. But I was too smart, and
knew everything.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any other type of training?
Mrs. RICH. Depending on what you mean—formal education—meaning book
learning?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, yes.
Mrs. RICH. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or other types of training, such as stenography?
Mrs. RICH. IBM, and police investigation.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the IBM aspect? Did you study that?
Mrs. RICH. I made a misquotation. It would be Remington Rand, actually.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you study?
Mrs. RICH. Not with Remington Rand as a company. For Craftsman Life and
Health Insurance Co. of Boston.
Mr. HUBERT. You worked there?
Mrs. RICH. I did.
Mr. HUBERT. And studied the operation of Remington Rand machines there?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us the name of some of the people you worked
with there?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, you are going back too far, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was that place located?
Mrs. RICH. On Boylston Street.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the name of the manager?
Mrs. RICH. It may sound odd—whether this name has stuck in my mind or
not—but it seems to me his name is Griffin, too. I may be wrong.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you there?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, probably 6 months.
Mr. HUBERT. That was after you married?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, no. No—in fact, I was working there when I met Musachio.
That was back in 1958.
Mr. HUBERT. I see. You had divorced your first husband?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned something else besides IBM.
Mrs. RICH. Police investigation.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, where did you learn that?
Mrs. RICH. From various police organizations, district attorney’s
offices.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you name them, please?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; some with the Boston Police Department.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you work with?
Mrs. RICH. We called him Papa McGill. Sergeant McGill, and John
Dinatele, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work there?
Mrs. RICH. Well, I was a young kid, and didn’t have any brains. I blew
a case, and that was it.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you paid?
Mrs. RICH. At that time; no.
Mr. HUBERT. Your answer suggests that at a later time you were paid.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. With the same department?
Mrs. RICH. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, with what police department?
Mrs. RICH. With the district attorney’s office of Sacramento.
Mr. HUBERT. California?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work there?
Mrs. RICH. Well, this wasn’t a question of working. I worked as needed,
or as a case came up. I worked for Mr. Oscar Kistle, Chief Deputy
District Attorney, who as of this January is now a judge.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you work with anybody else there?
Mrs. RICH. I worked with the Hayward Police Department, in California.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you work with there?
Mrs. RICH. Lieutenant—I can’t remember his name.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work with that police department?
Mrs. RICH. Well, I left. That is why I discontinued my association with
them. Again, as needed.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, altogether, how long were you there?
Mrs. RICH. Altogether, if you want to put it running day by day,
probably 3 weeks. If you want to say—actually I was associated with
them probably 3 or 4 months.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what I meant.
Mrs. RICH. But not worked steadily.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand.
Mrs. RICH. And the Oakland Police Department.
Mr. HUBERT. Oakland, Calif.?
Mrs. RICH. California.
Mr. HUBERT. And who did you work with there?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, dear. I worked on grand theft. Lieutenant—I can’t
remember—whoever the lieutenant is in charge of grand theft detail. Lt.
Parker.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in Oakland with that association?
Mrs. RICH. Again, about the same length of time as Hayward. I was
working with both of them at the same time, and also Sacramento. In
that type of work, you cannot get by in just one.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think you mentioned Sacramento yet.
Mrs. RICH. The district attorney’s office, yes, I have. At this time,
if necessary, I can introduce a letter into evidence verifying part of
this testimony.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you wish to do so?
Mrs. RICH. I believe I would.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, do you have the letter?
Mrs. RICH. I do. Note for the record I hand a letter to Mr. Hubert,
signed by Chief Deputy Kistle.
Mr. HUBERT. You have handed me this document. Do you wish—I assume you
wish to keep the original.
Mrs. RICH. That is the only one I have, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you mind if we had a copy made of it?
Mrs. RICH. I would not.
Mr. HUBERT. And then we can hand you back the original.
Mrs. RICH. That will be fine.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, when did you first meet Jack Ruby?
Mrs. RICH. When I first reached Dallas, I, of course, went directly to
the police station. Ironically enough, the first person I met was Mr.
Tippit.
Mr. HUBERT. What is his first name? Are you referring to the Tippit who
was shot on November 22d?
Mrs. RICH. I would say so. I believe it is the only Tippit on the
police force.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. So you met Mr. Tippit. And what happened then?
Mrs. RICH. I walked in and plunked $4 on the desk and said, “Here I
am.” He said——
Mr. HUBERT. Well——
Mrs. RICH. This was a joke. When I called him from Massachusetts, I
told him when I hit there I would have 4 bucks in my pocket. It was
rather a kind of a joke, actually. I said, “Here I am.”
He said, “Oh, no; I told you not to do it.”
I had talked to him previously on the phone. So that was all right.
So he called in one of the patrolmen. And they get the Black Maria,
go down to the bus depot and get my bags. And I had called Associated
Press. I have many friends around the press world. Being in public
relations, I would. And this Brice someone or other said, “You can go
and stay with my wife for a couple of days until you get settled.”
Three o’clock in the morning we start punching doorbells, with the
suitcases in a Black Maria, trying to find Ann, and I couldn’t remember
the last name. So the next day they send up to pick me up and help me
find a place and job.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say “they”——
Mrs. RICH. Meaning the police department of Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. What particular individuals?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t recall exactly who sent them up. I cannot remember
the guy’s name. Really. I don’t believe he is any longer with them, I
understand.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, some person from the police department came to
get you the next day?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. Subsequently, one Mr. Paul Rayburn, detective,
juvenile, came to pick me up, along with his partner, Detective House.
Well, we managed to find a place to live. And Paul suggested he had a
friend. And did I know anything about bartending; well, I did.
Mr. HUBERT. What place did he find you to live in? Do you remember the
address?
Mrs. RICH. No; I don’t. It was a rooming house. Actually, it was a
private home more or less cut into small apartments. I believe it was a
three-room apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long did you live there?
Mrs. RICH. Here is where we are going to get into difficulty. I don’t
remember. I cannot remember the length of time or addresses I lived at.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you live at more than one place prior to the time Mr.
Perrin joined you in July?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any of the addresses of the places where
you lived?
Mrs. RICH. Well, I remember I lived—when Mr. Perrin joined me I was
living on Oak Street, I believe. Then we moved to another street, and I
don’t remember where it was.
Mr. HUBERT. How many places do you suppose you lived in prior to the
time Mr. Perrin joined you?
Mrs. RICH. Two, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. One was on Oak Street?
Mrs. RICH. That was the one—let’s put it this way. Two including the
one I was living at when he joined me.
Mr. HUBERT. And one was on Oak Street?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. That was the big apartment building.
Mr. HUBERT. And the other was a rooming house?
Mrs. RICH. Well, I call it a rooming house. Perhaps I have named it
incorrectly. I would say a private home cut up into small apartments.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t remember where that was?
Mrs. RICH. I cannot remember. I can remember the house. I would
probably know it if I see it. It is outside the city a little ways. It
wasn’t right in the heart of downtown.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the name of the lady who owned the house?
Mrs. RICH. No; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, the other was an apartment building, you say.
Mrs. RICH. Yes. I believe—now, put this as supposed—I believe it was
1136 Oak Street, but I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. So that both places were on Oak Street?
Mrs. RICH. No, no. The one on Oak, I think, that was the address. I
don’t recall what the first one was that Mr. Rayburn put me into.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if I get this straight. You lived in a boarding
house which was a house cut into small units, you say, and you don’t
know where that was located.
Mrs. RICH. No; that is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long did you stay there, do you suppose?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, maybe 3 or 4 weeks, 2 weeks, 3 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. After which, as I understand, you then went to the larger
apartment house.
Mrs. RICH. Yes; on Oak Street, apartment row, where all these big
luxury apartments are.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was on Oak Street?
Mrs. RICH. Oak Street.
Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed there until Mr. Perrin joined you?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. And for a while after. Until we found a place
comparable but at less money.
Mr. HUBERT. And where was that?
Mrs. RICH. That I don’t remember. Junios Street. I remember it didn’t
have a pool—it was a big brick apartment. Again, all of these places I
can close my eyes and picture. But I cannot tell you. I can’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you live there with Mr. Perrin?
Mrs. RICH. At the last address that I don’t remember?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; ma’am.
Mrs. RICH. Probably 3 or 4 months. I think we left Dallas in October
and went to New Orleans—either late October or early November.
Mr. HUBERT. What year?
Mrs. RICH. Of 1962. Now, this is where I am getting confused. It had to
have been 1961. This is where I get confused. When I stated before that
it was May of 1962, it wasn’t. It was May of 1961.
Mr. HUBERT. Why do you make that correction now?
Mrs. RICH. Well, it couldn’t have possibly been in 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mrs. RICH. My husband died in August of 1962, in New Orleans. And we
had been there over a year.
Mr. HUBERT. You had been in New Orleans over a year by the time he died?
Mrs. RICH. Almost a year. Between New Orleans and Boston, and Miami.
You see——
Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave Dallas, then?
Mrs. RICH. It would be October of 1961.
Mr. HUBERT. That you left Dallas?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And all of these previous dates, May and July, you now wish
to correct——
Mrs. RICH. To 1961.
Mr. HUBERT. And you lived with Mr. Perrin after leaving Dallas in
October of 1962—of 1961?
Mrs. RICH. 1961.
Mr. HUBERT. You lived in New Orleans most of the time?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he died there?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct. You see, it was New Orleans and Boston.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, I had asked you when you had first met Jack
Ruby, and I think you were beginning to tell us when we got into the
question of your residences. So now will you tell us how you met Jack
Ruby, and when?
Mrs. RICH. The when I could not tell you exactly. Some time during
May or June, I believe. Mr. Ruby’s records could tell you, due to the
fact that I believe he probably took social security out. But the how
was that Mr. Rayburn took me up and got me the job up there. Detective
Rayburn.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, how long after you had arrived in Dallas did you meet
Mr. Ruby?
Mrs. RICH. Again, the time element eludes me. It could be anywhere from
2 or 3 weeks to a month.
Mr. HUBERT. It is your thought that it might be that long after you
arrived in Dallas under the circumstances that you told us about?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t know. A week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks. The last few years
time has become nothing for me.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, what was your occupation with Ruby, and where
was it?
Mrs. RICH. I was bartender at the Carousel Lounge, on Commercial—well,
the main street in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Commerce?
Mrs. RICH. Commerce.
Mr. HUBERT. What were some of the names of the other people who worked
with you at that time?
Mrs. RICH. Buddy King—I should say his professional name is Buddy
King—Robert J. Stewart. I am trying to think of the name of that MC. I
have been trying to think of it, and I cannot. Ray something or other,
I believe. They came and they went.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you employed by Ruby altogether?
Mrs. RICH. Probably a couple of months.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you work with Ruby after your husband joined you?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you work until you left Dallas?
Mrs. RICH. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. How long before leaving Dallas did you quit the job at
Ruby’s?
Mrs. RICH. Possibly a couple of months, 3 months. I wasn’t in Dallas
more than maybe 5 months, 4 months at the most, 4 or 5 months at the
most.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when you say bartender, what do you mean? What were
your actual duties?
Mrs. RICH. I was actually a bartender. I worked behind the bar mixing
and serving drinks.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of drinks?
Mrs. RICH. Whatever was allowed. Actually, you are not allowed to serve
mixed drinks there. We do to special customers. You are not allowed to
serve hard liquor. But I served beer, and wine, of course, and your
setups.
Mr. HUBERT. What customers did you serve hard liquor to?
Mrs. RICH. Whomever I was told to.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know their names?
Mrs. RICH. I couldn’t quote you names, perhaps.
Mr. HUBERT. Who told you to serve them?
Mrs. RICH. Mr. Ruby. It was a standing order. For a particular group of
people. Then whenever he would come in and say, “This is private stock
stuff,” that would mean for me to go where I knew the hard liquor was
and get it out, and get it ready for the people in his private office.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the particular group—who did it consist of?
Mrs. RICH. The police department.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you saying that Jack Ruby told you that when any member
of the police department came in, that there was a standing order that
you could serve them hard liquor?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And are you also saying that you did so?
Mrs. RICH. I am saying that I needed a job and did so.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the names of any particular officers to
whom you served hard liquor?
Mrs. RICH. House, Rayburn——
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s see if we can get some first names.
Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember what House’s first name was, but it was
Paul Rayburn, and Detective—something House—they were partners. They
worked as a team, juvenile. And the rest were just faces and uniforms.
Mr. HUBERT. How would you know them?
Mrs. RICH. At that time, I knew them.
Mr. HUBERT. You knew them to be police?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they pay?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, no; of course not.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that an order, too, from Mr. Ruby?
Mrs. RICH. That was. Unless they came in in the evening with their
wives. Then, of course, they paid. But then again, they didn’t have
hard liquor, either, at that time. This is when they came in, by
themselves, I was to go get the private stock, as he called it, special
stock. They were served whatever they wanted on the house.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that widespread?
Mrs. RICH. I am not sure I understand what you mean by widespread.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you have mentioned two names, and then said there
were others whose names you don’t remember.
Mrs. RICH. Well, the only reason I remember House and Rayburn is
because they were personal friends of mine.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, how many others do you suppose you served?
Mrs. RICH. I couldn’t estimate. I couldn’t give you a true and accurate
figure. Anyone that came in from the police department. Including
certain attorneys in town. One attorney I particularly remember was a
fellow named Sy Victorson, who subsequently became my attorney, and a
personal friend.
Mr. HUBERT. And what?
Mrs. RICH. And a personal friend.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your salary there?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember. $50, $60 a week, I guess.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any tips?
Mrs. RICH. Sometimes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a man by the name of Andy Armstrong or
Andrew Armstrong?
Mrs. RICH. The name Armstrong doesn’t ring a bell. I guess, if my
memory serves me correctly—wasn’t the colored man that cleaned up
around there, Andy?
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the way you remember him?
Mrs. RICH. I wouldn’t swear to it. I do know we had a colored man
cleaning up, but I would be darned if I remember his name.
Mr. HUBERT. You think it may have been Andy?
Mrs. RICH. I can’t remember. I wouldn’t even dare venture a guess. In
all honesty, I would have to say I can’t really put a face to the name.
Mr. HUBERT. But there was a colored man there?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; there was a colored man that cleaned up.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he stay on in the afternoon and at night?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. What were your hours?
Mrs. RICH. I believe I would come in around 3, 4, 5 o’clock, I think,
sometimes I would come in at 6, or 7; I would work straight through to
midnight.
Mr. HUBERT. Was this cleanup man present when you came in?
Mrs. RICH. If I came in the afternoon, yes, the colored man was there.
As I say, in all honesty, I could not dare venture a name on that.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t remember any colored man who was there
helping at the bar in the night hours?
Mrs. RICH. You don’t notice them. I mean they are there. If you have
been a bartender, you would know what I mean. You don’t notice people
like that. They are taken for granted they are there, you have a bar
helper. Heck, I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what you are saying is that you do not remember that
there was any colored man who assisted with the bar at night.
Mrs. RICH. I will be darned if I can even put a face to whoever did
bring the bottles and stuff out to me, the cases.
Mr. HUBERT. Your answer to my question, then, is that you do not
remember that there was a colored man other than the cleaner that you
mentioned.
Mrs. RICH. Well, he did everything. I do remember he lugged beer cases
out for me. I think if my memory is right—I think he stacked my cooler
for me.
Mr. HUBERT. Would he leave before you?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t really remember. As I say, these people you take for
granted, you don’t pay any attention to them. I never gave it a second
thought. I had one thing on my mind, and it went against my grain. I
was doing something I knew to be illegal, and I knew I needed the job.
Every night I expected a raid. That was my prime concern.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you know a man by the name of Ralph Paul?
Mrs. RICH. Ralph Lee?
Mr. HUBERT. No; Ralph Paul.
Mrs. RICH. If he is the one I am thinking of, he was the manager at
Earl’s Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Earl who?
Mrs. RICH. Earl’s Club. I don’t know what Earl’s last name was. I
forgot. It is a private club in Dallas. But I knew him as Ralph Lee.
Oh, I don’t think it is the same one. Again, I would remember people if
I saw their faces. Names I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a person by the name of Eva Grant?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was she?
Mrs. RICH. Well, she managed Jack’s other club; his sister managed the
Vegas Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever meet her?
Mrs. RICH. One time.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mrs. RICH. She came in at the club there one time, was introduced as
his sister, and that she managed the Vegas Club, which I had never been
out to.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any difficulty with Ruby?
Mrs. RICH. Except the fact I was about ready to throw a cash register
on his head, no.
Mr. HUBERT. What was that?
Mrs. RICH. I shouldn’t have said that. I said except for the fact that
I was ready one night to throw a cash register on his head, no. I don’t
like to be pushed around.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you suggesting that he did push you around?
Mrs. RICH. I am suggesting he threw me up against the bar and put a
bruise on my arm, and only because Bud King and one of the dancers
there pulled me off, I was going to kill him.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the argument about?
Mrs. RICH. The bar glasses were not clean enough to suit him. And I
wasn’t pushing drinks to the customers fast enough.
Mr. HUBERT. And so he remonstrated with you?
Mrs. RICH. He did.
Mr. HUBERT. And that included pushing you around?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct. And I was refused the privilege of bringing
an assault and battery suit against him.
Mr. HUBERT. Who refused you that?
Mrs. RICH. The police department. I went down for information and was
going to Mr. Douglas—I believe he was—he is some attorney—I think he
was—he is with the DA’s office. I don’t remember his position. I can’t
remember his last name. I wanted to file suit against Ruby. And I was
refused. I was told if I did that I would never win it, and get myself
in more trouble than I bargained for.
Mr. HUBERT. That was told to you by whom?
Mrs. RICH. By the Dallas Police Department.
Mr. HUBERT. But what individual of the Dallas Police Department?
Mrs. RICH. Again—and I wish to God I could—I can’t remember his name.
There was a detective, plainclothesman.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you say that you had spoken to someone in the district
attorney’s office?
Mrs. RICH. No; I said that is who I was going to go to. I wasn’t
advised. I was flatly told not to.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did not go to anyone in the district attorney’s
office?
Mrs. RICH. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did that put an end to your employment with Ruby?
Mrs. RICH. No; I had already ceased with Ruby the night that that
happened. I walked out, and left him cold.
Mr. HUBERT. That is what I mean.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. After this altercation, you no longer worked for him?
Mrs. RICH. I did not. I was just biding my time until I found another
job, which I did find. This was on a Wednesday. I was going to give him
notice and leave him—I wasn’t going to leave him over the weekend, but
I was going to start the other place the following Monday anyway. And
this just hastened it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you report that to your husband?
Mrs. RICH. I did.
Mr. HUBERT. He was employed in Dallas at that time, I think you said.
Mrs. RICH. Yes; he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mrs. RICH. At this time, I don’t recall whether he was working for
Paul Rayburn, Detective Rayburn, at his used car lot, or whether he
was with Al’s Automotive. One of the two places.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a job did he have?
Mrs. RICH. Mechanic. Subsequently my husband went up and Jack Ruby
threw him out of the club. My husband was going to talk to him. And I
found out about it. Ruby had already kicked him out of the club. And
then I disuaded him from going back further. I said, “Forget it, just
let it drop.”
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any other employment in Dallas after this
altercation with Ruby?
Mrs. RICH. Yes, I did. At the—I think it was called just The Chalet.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was it located?
Mrs. RICH. Again I can’t remember. Again it was on the other side of
Dallas. It was outside—in fact, I don’t thing it was right in Dallas
proper. It wasn’t in Dallas proper, I know.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of work did you do there?
Mrs. RICH. This was a dining place. And I was a hostess. And in the
place they had this little booth, and they had a dart game, and you
could throw darts and win prizes, and I also ran that place for them.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was your employer there?
Mrs. RICH. Again, I cannot recall his name.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you there?
Mrs. RICH. Until I left Dallas—probably a month. Then we left to go
back to New Orleans.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you unemployed—that is to say, what period
was there between the time you left Ruby and the time you got this
employment at The Chalet?
Mrs. RICH. Between the time I left Ruby and the time I went to The
Chalet, about 5 or 6 days. And then I quit The Chalet a little before
we left. And, of course, prior to going to Ruby’s I wasn’t employed.
Then there was a period of about a week, week and a-half, while I was
at Ruby’s, all of a sudden he decided he didn’t need a bartender. Then
I am recalled back.
Mr. HUBERT. You left The Chalet about a week before you left Dallas?
Mrs. RICH. Probably a little more than that. Maybe 2, 2½ weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did you leave The Chalet?
Mrs. RICH. Well, for one thing he was going to close down for
renovations. And then he said, “no, I am not; I am going to sell out.”
And he decided to close it down anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you work for a place called the Theater Lounge?
Mrs. RICH. Barney Weinstein—yes, I did.
Mr. HUBERT. When?
Mrs. RICH. That was during the time I had left Ruby and then went back
to Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you work for the Theater Lounge?
Mrs. RICH. No more than a week or two. I forgot all about working for
Barney. I have to laugh. His brother owned the other stripping place
in town, right next to Ruby, upstairs. And they had this amateur show,
these amateur strippers. Barney was going to promote me as a stripper.
No thanks.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, before we get into any other matter, I want
to go back to the letter that you handed me which was dated October 25,
1963. It is addressed, “To Whom it May Concern:”
It purports to be signed by Oscar Kistle, chief deputy, district
attorney. It is on stationery of the office of the District Attorney of
Sacramento County. I have had a Xerox copy made of it. I have returned
the original to you, is that right?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking the Xerox copy of that document for
identification by writing on the right-hand margin the following words;
to wit: “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, Deposition of
Nancy Perrin Rich,” under which I have signed my name, and in order
that the record may show that there is no misunderstanding about it, I
wonder if you would sign your name as I have mine.
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I would. Note for the record that on the left-hand
margin I signed “Nancy E. Perrin Rich.”
Mr. HUBERT. I think the letter that you handed me was in an envelope,
which was plain, other than the fact that it had in the left-hand upper
corner the words “Office of District Attorney, Room 204, Courthouse,
Sacramento 14, California”. I am marking a Xerox copy of the original
of that envelope, which has been returned to you, for identification
by writing on the Xerox copy the following, to wit: “Washington, D.C.,
June 2, 1964, Exhibit 2, Deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich,” under which
I have signed my name, and I ask you to sign yours as you did with
reference to Exhibit No. 1.
Mrs. RICH. Note for the record that I signed Nancy E. Perrin Rich under
Mr. Hubert’s signature.
(The documents referred to were marked Nancy E. Perrin Rich Exhibits 1
and 2 for identification.)
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, ma’am.
Mrs. RICH. At this time I would also, pertaining to my statement
concerning working for various police organizations, introduce into
this informal hearing, so to speak, another piece of material given
to me by the Oakland Police Department while working on a case for
them, under the name of Julie Anne Cody. Also under this name is a
police record purposely devised by the Oakland Police Department for
obvious purposes, to coincide with this card that I am about to hand
to Mr. Hubert—also, how shall we say it—falsified, made up by the
Oakland Police Department, for obvious purposes. This was to get me
into a particular place—I had to have a police record—all done with the
sanction of the Oakland Police Department. May I also note that on that
card the dates and the names are fictitious, intentionally so. The card
was in reality printed in, I believe, November of 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you want to introduce this card into this
proceeding?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. And I will tell you why. If you note the date on
that, some of my statements—Let’s say that this came into light, and
I didn’t give the explanation of why and what this meant—the dates
would conflict with some of my testimony. And I want this understood
that this was purely done to, shall we say, consummate a case for the
Oakland Police Department. I was not actually in California the dates
on that card.
Mr. HUBERT. When was this card issued to you?
Mrs. RICH. In reality, this card was issued in November of 1963. I was
working on a grand larceny case.
Mr. HUBERT. You want this card back, the original?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now, as soon as we have a Xerox copy made of the
card, we will identify it and sign the copies as we have done the other.
Meanwhile, let us pass on to another point. I think you have mentioned
that you saw Ruby at a certain meeting at which your husband was
present and there was a general discussion of guns or Cuban refugees.
Mrs. RICH. Your statement is partially correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us what is actually correct?
Mrs. RICH. At the first meeting there were four people present. There
was a colonel, or a light colonel, I forgot which. I also forget
whether he was Air Force or Army. It seems to me he was Army. And it
seems to me he was regular Army. There was my husband, Mr. Perrin,
myself, and a fellow named Dave, and I don’t remember his last name.
Dave C.—I think it was Cole, but I wouldn’t be sure.
Dave came to my husband with a proposition——
Mr. HUBERT. There were only four people present?
Mrs. RICH. Let me clarify the statement about Dave. He was a bartender
for the University Club on Commerce Street in Dallas. I became
associated with him and subsequently so did my husband. Well, at first
it looked all right to me. They wanted someone to pilot a boat—someone
that knew Cuba, and my husband claimed he did. Whether he did, I don’t
know. I know he did know boats. So they were going to bring Cuban
refugees out into Miami. All this was fine, because by that time
everyone knew Castro for what he appears to be, shall we say. So I said
sure, why not—$10,000. I said that is fine.
Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand from that that you and your husband were to
receive $10,000 for your services?
Mrs. RICH. Well, I was incidental.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I would like to know.
Mrs. RICH. I say I was incidental. My husband was.
Mr. HUBERT. Your husband was to receive $10,000?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who told him so?
Mrs. RICH. The colonel.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did this meeting take place?
Mrs. RICH. In Dallas at an apartment building. Again, I can describe
that darned building to a “T” and I couldn’t tell you what street it is
on.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you describe it for us, please?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; it was sitting—if I may do it in diagram.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what section of the city it was?
Mrs. RICH. No; this I don’t. You come along—let’s say this is your
main street, that the apartment building set on. We have an apartment
building, not setting facing the street, but with the side towards the
street. A hill slopes up. There is a path that kind of winds around.
There are flowers and gardens here; and in them I believe there is
a little fountain—and in them was lights—illuminating the gardens;
and you have to come up a little hill, and walk around—I am not sure
whether there was a gravel path or not, or whether it is flagstone—and
into the building here. And it was a double deck, I believe—perhaps a
triple.
Mr. HUBERT. Apartment house?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How many apartments, roughly speaking?
Mrs. RICH. I could not say how many. The standard apartment building
for Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, at this point let us do this: You have handed
us the card that you referred to in your testimony previously. We have
now had a Xerox copy made of it. I am handing you back the original.
For the purpose of identification, I am marking the Xerox copy, front
and back, as follows, to wit: “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit
No. 3, Deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich,” and I am signing my name below
that. And on the reverse side of it, which appears on another Xerox
page, I am marking for the purpose of identification the following:
“Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 3-A, Deposition of Nancy
Perrin Rich,” under which I have signed my name. And I ask you, please,
to sign both documents below my name so that the record will show that
we have been speaking of the same document.
Mrs. RICH. Note for the record that I signed Nancy E. Perrin Rich under
Mr. Hubert’s name on Exhibit No. 3. Will you note for the record that I
signed Nancy E. Perrin Rich under Mr. Hubert’s name on Exhibit No. 3-A.
(The documents referred to were marked Nancy Perrin Rich Exhibits Nos.
3 and 3-A for identification.)
Mr. HUBERT. Now, a moment ago you were testifying concerning an
apartment house at which you and your husband met a colonel and another
man by the name of Dave C., I think you said.
Mrs. RICH. Yes; that is an initial—C. Dave took us there.
Mr. HUBERT. I am going to mark that document for the purpose of
identification “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 4,
Deposition of Nancy Perrin Rich,” under which I am signing my name, and
I ask you to sign your name on it, if you please.
Mrs. RICH. I didn’t mean for this to be an exhibit. Will you note for
the record that I signed Nancy E. Perrin Rich under Mr. Hubert’s name
on Exhibit No. 4. Also note for the record the writing I am doing after
signing is merely designating what the lines mean.
(The document referred to was marked Nancy Perrin Rich Exhibit No. 4
for identification.)
Mr. HUBERT. Am I correct in stating that prior to the writing you
have just put on the document, Exhibit No. 4, there were merely lines
which indicated a street and an apartment and a little path, showing
a garden. And that since the document has been identified, you have
written in all that appears in handwriting?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember on what floor this apartment was that you
visited?
Mrs. RICH. I believe the first.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether it was to the left or the right as
you went in?
Mrs. RICH. There was no question of left or right as such. It was—you
just walked in. There was no hallway to indicate left or right, if that
is what you are referring to.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this apartment actually opened on the path?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. How many rooms did it have?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t recall whether it was a one or two bedroom.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us any other description of the apartment
building, first of all?
Mrs. RICH. The apartment itself wasn’t too well furnished.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a brick apartment?
Mrs. RICH. I believe it was. Either brick or stucco.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the color of it?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t. But I believe it had colored doors. Now, I could be
mistaken.
Mr. HUBERT. And the apartment itself was one or two bedrooms, and I
think you say it was not well furnished. Do you recall anything about
the interior of the apartment that would be significant?
Mrs. RICH. Let me clarify that. When I say not well furnished, I should
have said sparsely furnished. It looked like an unfurnished apartment
that he had just thrown some furniture into and not too much of it. I
believe I remember he said something about he just moved in; hadn’t
finished it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it have lamps in it?
Mrs. RICH. I believe it did. I think it had one lamp on the table.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall anything about the furniture that was there?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; it was, I believe you call it Danish modern.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it upholstered?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t recall. It was typical cheap apartment furniture. I
believe it had plastic upholstery.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you went there at night.
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time?
Mrs. RICH. It was after dark. Probably 9 o’clock.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall how long it took you to drive from where you
were living to this place?
Mrs. RICH. No; I do not.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you get there?
Mrs. RICH. In Dave’s car. Now, again, I said four people present.
I should have counted—he had a girl with him. She wasn’t in it or
anything, just some girl he had along for the evening. She was never
part of it. In fact, I think she stayed in the car.
Mr. HUBERT. How long were you in the place?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, probably half an hour, 45 minutes, an hour at the most.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the general discussion?
Mrs. RICH. Feeling each other out. I just kind of sat there and
listened. The general gist of it was we were going to obtain a boat,
the colonel could obtain various things, and nothing specific was
mentioned on what the various things were at that time. And we were
going to go and pick up—they were deciding where to pick them up—pick
up Cuban refugees, and bring them over to the main coast, meaning
Miami, which, quite frankly, I adhered to because at that time, as
I say, Castro is or was what we suppose him to be today, and quite
frankly I had seen underprivileged countries and at that time thought
it was a good idea.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the sum of $10,000 mentioned at that meeting?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Who mentioned it?
Mrs. RICH. The colonel. And it seemed awfully exorbitant for something
like this. I smelled a fish, to quote a maxim.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you thought that there was too much money involved
for this sort of operation?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t express that view, of course?
Mrs. RICH. No; I didn’t say anything. I just kept quiet.
Mr. HUBERT. How were matters left at the end of that meeting?
Mrs. RICH. That there were more people involved, and that we were to
attend a meeting at some later date, of which we would be advised.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you advised?
Mrs. RICH. We were.
Mr. HUBERT. Did another meeting take place?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; it did.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after the first?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, probably 5 or 6 days, give or take a day or 2.
Mr. HUBERT. At the same place?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it at night?
Mrs. RICH. It was.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you get there then?
Mrs. RICH. We went in our own car, but with Dave with us. At that time,
Dave and my husband and I were in our car.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Tell us what happened.
Mrs. RICH. Well, we got there and at that time there was the colonel
and another middle-aged woman, kind of a real old granite face I would
describe her, steel-gray hair. Looked rather mannish. And there was a
rather——
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know her name?
Mrs. RICH. No; I was introduced. Names were mentioned around. I don’t
recall it. And then there was another rather pugnacious-looking fellow,
who looked at though he might have been an ex-prizefighter.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you introduced to him?
Mrs. RICH. I was introduced to everyone.
Mr. HUBERT. Who else was there?
Mrs. RICH. The colonel, the woman, and the prizefighter type, a couple
of other men that just kind of sat off in the corner. One of them
looked rather dark, like he might have been Cuban or Latin American,
and Dave, my husband, and myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened at that meeting.
Mrs. RICH. Well, apparently from what I could discern, they had some
kind of a hitch in their plans. And at that time I point blank spoke
up and said, “Well, suppose we discuss the plans in full before
we”—meaning my husband and myself—“get into this. I would like to know
what we are getting into. And at this point you know by now I certainly
have a say in this matter.” Then it came out—boom—quite blank. We were
going to bring Cuban refugees out—but we were going to run military
supplies and Enfield rifles in.
Mr. HUBERT. Who made that statement?
Mrs. RICH. I believe it was the Latin-looking fellow that first made
the statement. But the colonel clarified it. The colonel seemed to be
the head of it and seemed to do all the talking.
Mr. HUBERT. He was in uniform?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe what the colonel looked like?
Mrs. RICH. Vaguely. I would say approximately 45 to 50, perhaps a
little younger. He was kind of bald, and that may have made him look
older. As I recall, a rather slightly built man—and I would not swear
to it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any other characteristics?
Mrs. RICH. Not that I can recall, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he in summer uniform?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; he was.
Mr. HUBERT. Short sleeves?
Mrs. RICH. If my memory serves me; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you whom he was representing in the matter?
Mrs. RICH. Not exactly. That fact never did come clear to me. A group
of people.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did he indicate in anyway that he was acting
officially, in his official capacity?
Mrs. RICH. No; he was not acting officially.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mrs. RICH. Because of certain statements that were made—statements
such as that the guns would have to come in via Mexico, meaning the
Enfield rifles. Statements like “We have been taking stuff off of the
base for the last 3 months getting prepared for this”—meaning military
equipment, I suppose small arms, or explosives, et cetera, as I
understood it.
Mr. HUBERT. He was also in uniform on the first occasion?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. The same type of uniform?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You say you never saw him out of uniform? All of the times
you saw him he was in uniform?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Summer uniform?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So at that meeting it came out that the project had two
purposes. One was to bring arms in, and the other was to take refuges
out.
Mrs. RICH. Yes; to make money both ways. Then it became crystal clear
why so much money was to be paid for the pilot of the boat.
Mr. HUBERT. And how was that meeting left?
Mrs. RICH. Well, at that time when he said that, my first thought
was “Nancy, get out of here, this is no good, this stinks.” I have
no qualms about making money, but not when it is against the Federal
Government but let’s play along and see what happens. I said, “All
right, we will go. But you can take the $10,000 and keep it. I want
$25,000 or we don’t move.” It was left that the bigwigs would decide
among themselves. During this meeting I had the shock of my life.
Apparently they were having some hitch in money arriving. No one
actually said that that was what it was. But this is what I presumed it
to be. I am sitting there. A knock comes on the door and who walks in
but my little friend Jack Ruby. And you could have knocked me over with
a feather.
Mr. HUBERT. That was at the second meeting?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what facts occurred to give you the impression that
there was a hitch with respect to money?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, just that they were talking about, well, first of
all when I say we—a group of people were supposed to go to Mexico
to make the arrangement for rifles but “Well, no, you can’t leave
tomorrow”—they dropped it. And just evasive statements that led me to
believe that perhaps they were lacking in funds.
And then Ruby comes in, and everybody looks like this, you know, a big
smile—like here comes the Saviour, or something. And he took one look
at me, I took one look at him, and we glared, we never spoke a word.
I don’t know if you have ever met the man. But he has this nervous
air about him. And he seemed overly nervous that night. He bustled on
in. The colonel rushed out into the kitchen or bedroom, I am not sure
which. Ruby had—and he always did carry a gun—and I noticed a rather
extensive bulge in his—about where his breast pocket would be. But at
that time I thought it was a shoulder holster, which he was in the
habit of carrying.
Mr. HUBERT. He was in the habit of carrying?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. Either a shoulder holster or a gun stuck in his pocket.
I always had a gun behind the bar. That is normal.
Mr. HUBERT. You had seen it at his shoulder?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; which was normal—because he made the bank deposit. I
made the bank deposit a couple of times for him and carried a gun when
I made it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he show any signs of recognition of you?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; he glared at me and I glared back, as much as to say to
each other what the heck are you doing here.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you told the colonel and Dave what your name was prior
to that?
Mrs. RICH. At that time we—I think it will be obvious to you gentlemen
the reason—we were going under Jack Starr and Nancy Starr.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you mean that is the name that Ruby knew you under?
Mrs. RICH. No. Jack Ruby knew me as Nancy Perrin.
Mr. HUBERT. And he knew your husband was Robert Perrin?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. But like I say for obvious reasons we used the name
Jack and Nancy Starr.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you told the colonel and Dave that your
name——
Mrs. RICH. No; Dave knew our real name.
Mr. HUBERT. The colonel——
Mrs. RICH. The colonel and everyone else involved, with the exception
of Ruby and Dave.
Mr. HUBERT. They knew you as Nancy Starr?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. Also let me state that my husbands’ nom de plume as a
writer was Jack Starr. I have also published under Nancy Starr.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. What happened?
Mrs. RICH. Well, they went in and came out and the bulge was gone,
and everybody was really happy, and all of a sudden they seemed to be
happy. So it was my impression Ruby brought money in.
Mr. HUBERT. They walked out of the apartment?
Mrs. RICH. Ruby left. He didn’t stay. He wasn’t there for more than 15
minutes at the most.
Mr. HUBERT. You say all of a sudden the bulge was gone?
Mrs. RICH. The bulge was gone from Ruby when he left.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he leave the room?
Mrs. RICH. He left the apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean from the time he came in until he left.
Mrs. RICH. He came in. To everyone else except my husband and I he
said, “Hi.” He and the colonel rushed into—I forget whether it was the
kitchen or the bedroom. They were in there about 10 minutes. I heard
some rather loud undistinguishable words. They closed the door. When
they came out everybody looked relieved. And Ruby just walked out.
Mr. HUBERT. And said nothing to you?
Mrs. RICH. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You say the money was forthcoming?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get it?
Mrs. RICH. No; we didn’t. First they had to pay for this
pugnacious-looking fellow and one of the Latins who were going down to
Mexico to make arrangements and pay for the guns. All of a sudden just
before Ruby come in they couldn’t go, and right after Ruby left they
were on the plane the next morning, so to speak.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not see Jack Ruby hand any money to anybody?
Mrs. RICH. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor did you see any money handed to anyone else.
Mrs. RICH. No; I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. So the way it was left then, these people, the others, were
going to go to Mexico——
Mrs. RICH. Actually they were going to leave not the day following, but
the day after that—2 days later they were going to leave for Mexico. I
just assumed that that was money that Ruby brought in. Because before
that they could not go, they did not have the finances, and after he
left they did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they say they did not have the finances, or was it your
assumption that they did not?
Mrs. RICH. When someone is stalling around, and not setting a concrete
date and saying, “Well, we have to wait” and that it will get here
soon, and statements like that that I hear in conversation, then all of
a sudden in comes a man with a bulge and hands it to the colonel in the
back room, so to speak, and all of a sudden, boom, the reservations
are made then and there, I think that is a pretty good assumption.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, those are the facts that you observed upon
which you base the assumptions that you have made.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct. And the big sigh of relief, so to speak,
afterwards.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you then ask about your portion of the money?
Mrs. RICH. At that time it was to be decided, as I say, among the
bigwigs. I had asked for $25,000.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that before Ruby came in?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; in fact it was just a few minutes before he knocked on
the door. They decided they did not know, and they were going to have
a meeting—there were some other people involved higher up than they
were. They would have to talk it over with them. At that time I had it
in my mind I would go ahead and play ball—and I was stalling when I
asked for the $25,000—that I would notify the Federal authorities. As I
say, bringing the refugees out is one thing. Running in guns is another
thing, for a Communist country which at that time it was.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that meeting last?
Mrs. RICH. They were still going when we left. And we were there about
2½ hours.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you and your husband?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Dave remained behind?
Mrs. RICH. He remained. Well, actually at that point business was over,
and it just became a party. Neither my husband nor I drink, so we left.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you leave it with them? Who was going to make the
next move?
Mrs. RICH. We were to be notified as to the time and place of the next
meeting and as to the decision on upping the ante, so to speak.
Mr. HUBERT. They did not reject your offer of $25,000?
Mrs. RICH. It was to be discussed.
Mr. HUBERT. $10,000 was all right.
Mrs. RICH. Yes; $10,000 was offered.
Mr. HUBERT. $25,000, which was your counter offer, had to be discussed.
Mrs. RICH. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And they told you they would discuss that and let you know.
Mrs. RICH. With some other people that were higher up.
Mr. HUBERT. They told you they were higher up?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; the colonel said that they were higher up. I do not
know the exact words.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened then?
Mrs. RICH. I think his exact words were something like “I will discuss
it with my bosses.”
Mr. HUBERT. What happened after that?
Mrs. RICH. Well, about 3 or 4 days later we were told there was going
to be another meeting to attend. Dave came over and told us. And we
went. And——
Mr. HUBERT. What happened at that meeting? First of all, who was there?
How did you go?
Mrs. RICH. My husband and I.
Mr. HUBERT. You went in your car?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of a car did you have?
Mrs. RICH. At that time I believe we had a 1956 blue and white Ford, if
I am not mistaken.
Mr. HUBERT. What license plate?
Mrs. RICH. Texas.
Mr. HUBERT. Under the name of Perrin?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. So you went with your husband. This was the
third visit. Same place?
Mrs. RICH. Same place.
Mr. HUBERT. Same apartment?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. No change in the furniture or decorations or anything of
that sort?
Mrs. RICH. Not that I recall. I did not really notice.
Mr. HUBERT. And this third meeting was about 4 or 5 days after the
first?
Mrs. RICH. Three or four; after the second.
Mr. HUBERT. How were you notified to come to the first meeting?
Mrs. RICH. To come to the first meeting?
Mr. HUBERT. No; the third.
Mrs. RICH. Dave.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Dave was the man who was in between, as it
were.
Mrs. RICH. Well, Dave was in it. It was only because he was our friend.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he to get anything out of it?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t know; never did.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t you discuss that with him?
Mrs. RICH. In that sort of business, you don’t discuss things,
apparently.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you did.
Mrs. RICH. Well, not to that point. It wouldn’t have done me any good.
I would have just gotten a “none of your business” answer.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know that to be a fact, did you?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mrs. RICH. Well, call it intuition. I don’t know. I just wouldn’t have
gotten an answer.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you think that Dave expected some money?
Mrs. RICH. I suppose so. I never did get his position quite clear in my
mind.
Mr. HUBERT. He was the one that had brought you into the picture in the
first place.
Mrs. RICH. Yes. It seemed to me like a front man for them, or
something, or a recruiter almost.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you were concerned about the question of money
involved in this thing, because as you said you let them know that you
would have a say about this.
Mrs. RICH. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. But you did not discuss with Dave whether he was to be paid
by you or the other side, as it were.
Mrs. RICH. Oh, no; he wasn’t to be paid by us. He brought us into the
group, so to speak. The only thing I could make him out to be is a
recruiter. Not to be paid by us. Nothing was ever mentioned of Dave
going on any of these trips.
Mr. HUBERT. But he was not to get a fee for finding you.
Mrs. RICH. I don’t know. I really don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did not raise the point with him.
Mrs. RICH. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor did your husband, to your knowledge.
Mrs. RICH. I don’t know. I didn’t ask him.
Mr. HUBERT. Did it concern you that Dave might want some of the money
that you were going to get?
Mrs. RICH. Not particularly, because at that time I had already made up
my mind to go to the authorities with it.
Mr. HUBERT. You had made up your mind when?
Mrs. RICH. After the second meeting, I found out they were going to
run rifles in, and military supplies and things that apparently—again
apparently were being pilfered from a base somewhere.
Mr. HUBERT. You made up your mind at the end really of the second
meeting.
Mrs. RICH. Yes; and then they said to run rifles and stolen military
supplies in—that was it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell your husband so?
Mrs. RICH. I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell Dave so?
Mrs. RICH. I did not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to the authorities?
Mrs. RICH. I never had the chance.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us why?
Mrs. RICH. Well, we went back to that third meeting and apparently by
mutual consent we got out of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened at the third meeting, including who
was there.
Mrs. RICH. Well, who was there—there was the colonel, again this
pugnacious-looking fellow who supposedly had gone to Mexico and been
back; the Latin-looking fellow and the other one with him who might
have been Latin wasn’t there—this woman was there. And another man I
had not seen before, but whose face rang a bell. And I could not put a
name to it.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been able to do so?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I have.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was it?
Mrs. RICH. Again, unless I am awfully mistaken, and I have yet to be
able to find a picture of this man, but I recall seeing a picture and I
know why I had associated him—of his father.
Mr. HUBERT. Whose father?
Mrs. RICH. This particular man. Now, again, what I am about to say is
not fact. It is something that I have never quite been able to get
clear in my mind and never will, until I can find a picture. Unless I
am very mistaken, the man at that third meeting was Vito Genovese’s son.
Mr. HUBERT. He was not introduced as such?
Mrs. RICH. He was introduced as Tony. That was all.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Vito Genovese?
Mrs. RICH. No; I never did.
Mr. HUBERT. But you knew his picture.
Mrs. RICH. I had seen his picture.
Mr. HUBERT. You thought there was a resemblance between that picture
and this man?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. For a week this bothered me. And all of a sudden it
came crystal clear.
Mr. HUBERT. What became clear?
Mrs. RICH. That unless I was way off base, that is who it was. And I do
know that a lot of people——
Mr. HUBERT. It was a week after the third meeting?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. I had been trying to put a name to that face.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now, what else happened at the third meeting?
Mrs. RICH. Well, No. 1, the raise of ante was turned down. The colonel
asked us if we would accept $15,000. My husband started to say
something. I hushed him up and said “No.” I said, “I don’t know. I
want some time to think about it.” So then the phone rang, and quite a
lengthy conversation took place in the other room. I could not swear to
who was on the other end of the phone, I have a pretty good idea. And
the colonel came back out and said, “I don’t know. We are going to call
this off for a while anyway. There has just been a change of plans. We
are going to have to postpone this for 3 or 4 months. There will be one
more meeting.” And at that time I stood up and I said, “Look, quite
frankly I don’t believe we want any part of this at all.” All I wanted
to do then and there was to get the devil out of there. I quite frankly
was scared. So I grabbed my old man and we cleared out.
Mr. HUBERT. But before clearing out, you told them you wanted no part
of it.
Mrs. RICH. Yes; that was after the colonel had said there was going to
be a 3- or 4-month delay and change of plans, and all this, that and
the other. I did not quite figure that maybe things were kosher.
Mr. HUBERT. How did they accept your suggestion that you would bail out?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t know. We left. I wasn’t going to wait around to find
out.
Mr. HUBERT. So you never did report it to the authorities.
Mrs. RICH. No; I never did.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mrs. RICH. Well, my husband got picked up in Dallas, and I will never
know if this was true—he said it wasn’t—the policeman said it was. My
husband had a .45. It was not registered.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean a pistol?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; a service automatic. He had no right carrying it.
He had it in the car. At that time he had a little old Nash Rambler
station wagon of his own. This cop says when he picked my husband up
my husband was standing in a little clearing beside the road there on
the way out to Rayburn, brandishing a gun around saying he was going
to kill somebody. He come to find out if it was a cop he was going to
kill. I will never know to this day whether this was true or not.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after the third meeting did this happen?
Mrs. RICH. That happened between the second and third meeting, if my
time elements are right.
Mr. HUBERT. Was your husband arrested?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; he was. That is when this Sy Victorson I mentioned
earlier in my testimony came in. He was an attorney. Perhaps not too
honest in some of the things he does, but a good attorney. And he got
my husband out of it. I had to pay some money. I will never know to
this day whether it was true. I can’t believe it.
Mr. HUBERT. And that event took place between the second and third
meeting, is that right?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after the third meeting did you leave Dallas?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, possibly 2 weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. And what was the reason for leaving Dallas?
Mrs. RICH. The minute I put a name to that face I said to Bob, “We are
getting out of here, and we are getting out fast, right now.” That
was about 5 o’clock at night. At 8 o’clock we was packed in a U-Haul
trailer and out.
Mr. HUBERT. But you did not put the name to the face at the third
meeting.
Mrs. RICH. No; not until about a week later.
Mr. HUBERT. You then drove to New Orleans?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. But by then everything had fallen into place, because
Ruby had had various characters visit him, both from New York, Chicago,
even from up in Minneapolis.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mrs. RICH. I was introduced to some of them. I was asked to go out with
some of them.
(At this point, a short recess was taken.)
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think we left off at the place where you were saying
that subsequent to the third meeting Ruby was visited by certain people
whose names I do not think you mentioned.
Mrs. RICH. No; this was prior. This is while I worked for Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. I see.
Mrs. RICH. I saw them come and go.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Ruby any more after the third meeting?
Mrs. RICH. I did not. I did not see him in fact at the third meeting.
Mr. HUBERT. I mean after the second.
Mrs. RICH. Oh, perhaps on the street.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not converse with him about this matter at all?
Mrs. RICH. I did not. I wanted no truck with the man.
Mr. HUBERT. And your reason for leaving Dallas, you say, was that——
Mrs. RICH. I smelled an element that I did not want to have any part of.
Mr. HUBERT. And that element was what?
Mrs. RICH. Police characters, let’s say.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, specifically it was, as I understood your testimony,
that you suddenly identified the man who was at the third meeting, but
not at any other, as possibly being the son of Vito Genovese.
Mrs. RICH. Possibly.
Mr. HUBERT. And that you made that recognition, or you associated that
man whom you saw with Vito Genovese, solely because you had seen a
picture of Vito Genovese.
Mrs. RICH. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And you came to the conclusion, then, that Vito Genovese
and that group of people were involved in this matter.
Mrs. RICH. Within my own mind; yes. I thought—then I got thinking
perhaps the higher-up that the colonel spoke of was perhaps the element
I did not want to deal with that was running the guns in, and God knows
what else.
Mr. HUBERT. Why didn’t you report it to the authorities in the interval
between the third meeting and the time you left Dallas?
Mrs. RICH. For the simple reason that I was hesitant about mentioning
anything about my husband’s past. I did not know how much of what my
husband had told me was true. I did not know how much of that he knew
before I knew it, or how deeply he was involved in anything. And quite
frankly if my husband was still alive, I would never have gone to the
FBI.
Mr. HUBERT. But you already told us at the end of the second meeting
you had decided to tell the authorities.
Mrs. RICH. Not when I see that element there.
Mr. HUBERT. But that element does not affect——
Mrs. RICH. That element, if what my husband had told me was true,
could have involved him a lot deeper than I suspected. And quite
frankly I am not stupid enough, shall we say, to believe if I ever
went to the authorities and that element was involved that I would
ever live to tell a second story. And if my suppositions were true as
to who the man’s identity really is—a combination of fear for myself
and protecting my husband. And at that time I thought, I suppose many
citizens do, well, let the next fellow do it, they will catch them
eventually. I chose to close my eyes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You still have the fear of that element?
Mrs. RICH. No; I do not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why is that?
Mrs. RICH. Well, since then I have become involved more extensively or
intensively in police work—and I don’t know—perhaps I have got some
sense in my head. I am just not. I was told to tell you this—by the
way, I had better bring it in now—I don’t know if it has any direct
result on this or not—but I was advised by Mr. Sweeny from the Secret
Service and Mr. Fahety from the FBI to tell you of this. A week——
Mr. HUBERT. When did Mr. Sweeny and Mr. Fahety tell you what you are
about to tell us?
Mrs. RICH. Fahety said it on Monday—Sweeny said it on Monday.
Mr. HUBERT. Last Monday?
Mrs. RICH. Yesterday. And Fahety told me Friday.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mrs. RICH. On the phone, when I talked to the FBI and the Secret
Service, respectively.
Mr. HUBERT. You did?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. They called you?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What did they tell you?
Mrs. RICH. Well, the FBI had called me to advise me of my receiving
this letter, because Kennett had called them. And Sweeny called me to
advise me of my tickets and transportation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who called the FBI?
Mrs. RICH. Rod Kennett had opened the letter from you people. And at
this time——
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what they advised you.
Mrs. RICH. They advised me to tell you what I am about to tell you. A
week ago last Saturday night I got home about 10:30, my brother-in-law
had a stroke——
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s get the date of that.
Mrs. RICH. That would be a week ago last Saturday.
Mr. HUBERT. Last Saturday was the 30th—the 23d of May.
Mrs. RICH. I believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mrs. RICH. About 10:30 at night I got home. And some phone calls
started. Again, let me say this may not or it may have a bearing
on this. My life was directly threatened. I called the Hanover
police—something I very seldom will do. But I panicked. They also
phoned my husband’s office. He was working that night on dispatch at
the cab company. They threatened my life with him. Sometimes they
would call and say something, sometimes just hang up, sometimes just
giggle. But they directly threatened my life. I thought perhaps it
was something to do with various police organization work I had done,
somebody had a grudge or something, or a crank, or anything. The phone
calls stopped and they started again. I called the police department
again. But then I was in hysterics.
Last Thursday I was on my way from my home up to North Attleboro, Mass.
For approximately 30 miles I was followed, and subsequently, up until
last Sunday I have had a tail on me. I notified the Mansfield police.
They got the registration number and the name of the fellow following
me. And he could give no reason why he was almost 60 or 70 miles from
where he lived.
Mr. HUBERT. And the Mansfield police have a record of that?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct. Mansfield, Mass.
Mr. HUBERT. And you also reported it to the police of——
Mrs. RICH. Hanover—the phone calls; yes. May I also add at this time
that due to a personal contact of mine, I will be doing, not for pay
but as a favor, a little bit of looking into a few matters for the
Mansfield Police Department for Chief D’Alefie, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. He recently contacted you?
Mrs. RICH. Well, the day I was up there we got talking and come to find
out I could probably help him—in fact, me being here today stopped me
from actually doing it.
Mr. HUBERT. And the day you saw him was last Thursday?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was at that time he said he might be able to use
your services?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; most definitely. And then again, come Friday, and I get
notification of this, I was just wondering whether or not it added in.
It may and it may not. But I was told to tell you. And I have done so.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what happened on Friday?
Mrs. RICH. No. I received notification, your letter.
Mr. HUBERT. I see what you mean.
Mrs. RICH. And I wondered if it did not somehow have a bearing on this.
Mr. HUBERT. But this tailing was after you got the letter, and after
you had spoken to——
Mrs. RICH. No; it started the day before. It was the same week.
Thursday I started to be tailed. Rod got the letter Thursday, called
the FBI, and God knows how many people he told. Thursday afternoon I
picked up a tail.
Mr. HUBERT. And you reported that to the Mansfield police.
Mrs. RICH. That was the first time I saw a policeman that I could pull
over and say, “Get the guy, he is tailing me.” And he most definitely
was.
Mr. HUBERT. But there were two occasions when you observed that you
were being tailed.
Mrs. RICH. No; from last Thursday up until Sunday night I had a tail on
me.
Mr. HUBERT. But you reported to the chief of police in Mansfield on
Thursday that you had a tail on you.
Mrs. RICH. The Mansfield police is the one that caught the guy that was
tailing me Thursday. I have not had a chance to report——
Mr. HUBERT. It was a different person, then, you think.
Mrs. RICH. The person that has been tailing me Friday, Saturday, and
Sunday is not the same person that has been tailing me Thursday. They
caught the guy Thursday.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of an automobile was it that was tailing you?
Mrs. RICH. Thursday?
Mr. HUBERT. No. Well, Thursday first.
Mrs. RICH. Thursday was a black Pontiac, Massachusetts registration, a
Mr. Alberto, from Hyde Park. They got him.
Mr. HUBERT. That is his name, Alberto?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is his first name?
Mrs. RICH. I have forgotten.
Mr. HUBERT. And the other car that has been tailing you?
Mrs. RICH. Plural.
Mr. HUBERT. What?
Mrs. RICH. More than one.
Mr. HUBERT. More than one individual, or more than one car, or both?
Mrs. RICH. Both. Friday and Saturday it was a green, I would say,
probably 1961, 1962 Chevrolet.
Mr. HUBERT. Green?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it the same man?
Mrs. RICH. No; it was not. It was an older man. The fellow following me
was probably maybe 21, 23 years old.
Mr. HUBERT. That is the first fellow.
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Friday and Saturday it was the same man?
Mrs. RICH. Middle aged; I didn’t get a real good look at him—I would
say probably in his forties. He rather looked to be a husky-looking
fellow. And Sunday I picked up a tail, and it was a man and a woman.
And I thought I recognized the girl, and I cannot be sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Same automobile?
Mrs. RICH. No; it was not the same vehicle.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that automobile.
Mrs. RICH. The vehicle that was on me Sunday was a blue two-door
hardtop. And I do not know the make of the car.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have not reported those last incidents?
Mrs. RICH. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, they tailed you from where to where?
Mrs. RICH. Wherever I went. I would leave the house, and believe me I
think I know when I am being tailed. When I pull over to the side of
the road, and a car pulls up and doesn’t pass me—I will do this two or
three times. And when I take a turnoff where nobody else will take, and
the car is still there, I think they are tailing me.
Mr. HUBERT. You tried to shake them?
Mrs. RICH. Precisely.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were not able to do so.
Mrs. RICH. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. When you get to your house, did they park around it?
Mrs. RICH. The one time the man did, down on the bridge—the boundary
line to our property is a river. And he sat down there and pretended
to be looking in the water. And then I would see him down by Jordan’s,
which is an eating house. Then he would be cruising around. And finally
he would give up and go away. And in a couple of hours he would be
back. Every time I took the car out, they were there.
Mr. HUBERT. What about at night? Did you observe anything?
Mrs. RICH. I didn’t go out at night.
Mr. HUBERT. Therefore you did not observe anything.
Mrs. RICH. No; I didn’t bother. Saturday I went to Maine—took my
daughter down to my mother’s. I had the green car on my tail all the
way to Maine and back.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you get to Washington to come to this deposition?
Mrs. RICH. By plane; American Airlines.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice anything about being tailed in that regard?
Mrs. RICH. I didn’t notice. I don’t think I was. I left my house in my
own car and drove to North Quincy, where I was subsequently picked up
by Mr. Milton of the Secret Service and taken directly to the airport,
and he stayed with me until I left. I was subsequently met here by Bill
something-or-other of the Secret Service. Now, as I say, this may or
may not—quite frankly, I don’t think it does have any bearing on this.
But I think it is something entirely different. I think it has to do
with the names of some bookmakers and a couple of abortionists I turned
in to the district attorney in Boston.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you mentioned to me earlier that this card which has
been identified as Exhibit No. 3 is a card that is usually issued—am I
not right—that it is a card usually issued under the requirements of
California law to a person who has got a record; is that correct?
Mrs. RICH. No; that is not correct. No. 1, the card is obsolete. That
is why it was back-dated. It was merely a pawnshop identification card.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned that it would establish your status
in someway for, I think you used the word, obvious purposes. What would
this card do in connection with the work that you were supposed to do?
Mrs. RICH. Well, the card in itself, nothing. It would prove I was
there when I said I was, because I had to attend associations with
certain people, who at that time were safely tucked away, but at
the time I was supposedly supposed to be there they were not—I was
supposedly supposed to have worked for these people. If I recall
correctly I said that I have a police record under that same name of
Julie Anne Cody.
Mr. HUBERT. And that name—that police record—is a fictitious record in
the sense that the offenses listed under the name of Julie Anne Cody
really did not ever occur.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any record under your right name?
Mrs. RICH. Yes, I do.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that?
Mrs. RICH. That is in Brookline, Mass., and it is a record for
prostitution.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that fictitious?
Mrs. RICH. That is not.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that the only record you have?
Mrs. RICH. That’s correct—that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I assume that you would know all the records you have.
Mrs. RICH. Well, when I say that, I was picked up twice in Dallas and
both times the charges were dropped—as far as I know. That is what Sy
Victorson told me.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever charged?
Mrs. RICH. Not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever booked?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t believe so.
Mr. HUBERT. But you were arrested.
Mrs. RICH. Yes. One time I was in jail for a couple of hours, the other
time 5 hours, because they could not get hold of Sy, who was on the
golf course.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you told why you were being arrested?
Mrs. RICH. I was arrested for investigation of vag, narcotics——
Mr. HUBERT. Of what?
Mrs. RICH. Vag—vagrancy. Narcotics, prostitution, and anything else
they could dream up. This is very shortly after I had threatened to go
and bring suit against Mr. Ruby. I was told I might find the climate
outside of Dallas a little more to my liking if I didn’t take the
advice of the police department.
Mr. HUBERT. Who told you that?
Mrs. RICH. The time I went down and wanted to bring charges against
Ruby for assault and battery, I was told not to, and at that time I was
also advised—I was not told to leave the city or anything like that,
but that it was nice in Chicago, for instance, that time of year.
Mr. HUBERT. And I think you said that you did not remember the name of
the man.
Mrs. RICH. I cannot remember the name of the detective that I spoke to;
no.
Mr. HUBERT. But he was the detective on the police force?
Mrs. RICH. He was. Jack Ruby is very well known in Dallas. A little too
well known.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by that?
Mrs. RICH. Just a personal opinion. I believe—now, this is not a fact,
this is just talk, this is just personal opinion—I believe at the time
of the—am I naming it correctly—Oswald assassination, it was claimed
that Ruby got in there pretending to be a reporter. Am I correct that
that was in the printed page?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what comment have you got to make to that?
Mrs. RICH. Anyone that made that statement would be either a damn liar
or a damn fool.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mrs. RICH. There is no possible way that Jack Ruby could walk in Dallas
and be mistaken for a newspaper reporter, especially in the police
department. Not by any stretch of the imagination.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that your opinion?
Mrs. RICH. That is not my personal opinion. That is a fact.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, on what do you base it?
Mrs. RICH. Ye gods, I don’t think there is a cop in Dallas that doesn’t
know Jack Ruby. He practically lived at that station. They lived in his
place. Even the lowest patrolman on the beat. He is a real fanatic on
that, anyway.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say even the lowest patrolman on the beat, what do
you mean?
Mrs. RICH. Everybody from the patrolmen on the beat in uniform to, I
guess everybody with the exception of Captain Fritz, used to come in
there, knew him personally. He used to practically live at the station.
I am not saying that Captain Fritz didn’t know him. I am saying he was
never—I have never seen him in the Carousel. He has always been, I
think, a little too far above things for that.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you have seen other high-ranking officers there?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I have.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you name them, please?
Mrs. RICH. I would if I could. I would be only too glad to.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you don’t know?
Mrs. RICH. I cannot recall names, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know they were high-ranking officers?
Mrs. RICH. At that time I knew them. Two years from now, if somebody
asked me your name, I would remember I knew you, I had seen you, but I
could not tell him your name.
Mr. HUBERT. You remember Captain Fritz’ name.
Mrs. RICH. Everybody remembers Captain Fritz. Will Fritz is quite a
famous man. And I would say he is of the highest integrity. Probably
the only one I know of on the police department that is.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you mentioned in one interview you had with the
FBI that you had some information that a contact in regard to this
gunrunning business was to be made at the Hotel Nueva Gallina in the
city of Guadalajara, Mexico. Is that correct?
Mrs. RICH. To the best of my knowledge; yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you get the information from?
Mrs. RICH. In the conversation at the second or third meeting.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention that to the FBI people in any of your
interviews prior to January?
Mrs. RICH. Not that I recall. I never talked about it prior to the time
I went there.
Mr. HUBERT. You spoke to the FBI in November and again in December.
Mrs. RICH. Let’s put it this way. When you say prior to me going to the
FBI—I went to the FBI the first time I believe in Oakland. And I do not
recall whether or not I told them the first time or the second time
about that. Whichever time I told them, I don’t recall.
Mr. HUBERT. I think it is a fact, is it not, that you contacted the FBI
in Brookline, Mass., sometime in January to tell them that you had been
going through some things of yours and had additional information.
Mrs. RICH. I believe it was in January. It was in Boston, by the way.
Mr. HUBERT. It was in Boston?
Mrs. RICH. Yes. I believe it was Mr. Stoddard I talked to.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the additional information?
Mrs. RICH. Right now I do not even remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that you found something among your things
which indicated that the contact during the gunrunning proposition was
supposed to be at this hotel in Guadalajara?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember what it was I turned up. I think it was
then—I know I turned up an address book with a telephone number in it.
I forgot whether that was here or in Oakland. And some cards. I know
what it was. It was on the back of a business card. That’s right. It
was on the back of a business card I turned that up. Yes; it was when I
called them—because I had gone through my strongbox after my stuff had
got here.
Mr. HUBERT. But the information that you had gotten concerning the
contact point as being in this hotel in Guadalajara, that information
was obtained by you at one of the meetings that you have just described.
Mrs. RICH. It was obtained there; yes. And if I remember, it had eluded
me when I first talked to them. And if I am not mistaken—I should have
brought it—I have it on the back of a business card at home, that
I turned up among some of my old business cards from Dallas in an
envelope. Now, whether or not I had recalled that and told them at the
first meeting or whether it was part of the additional information I
don’t remember. But it seems to me I turned that business card up and
did not remember that at the first talking with the FBI.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Whose name was on the front of the business card?
Mrs. RICH. Some advertising agency. It was just some card I marked it
down on.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you in the advertising business in 1961?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; I was.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mrs. RICH. In Boston. I handled the National Automatic Merchandising
Association NAMA Week.
Mr. HUBERT. What part of 1961?
Mrs. RICH. The first week in April we had the Governor proclaim it.
Mr. HUBERT. Who said that the contact was going to be at this hotel in
Guadalajara?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t know which one said it, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember at what meeting this was said?
Mrs. RICH. I believe at the third—the second. I wouldn’t swear, but I
think the third.
Mr. HUBERT. It was definitely not the first.
Mrs. RICH. No; definitely not the first. Either the second or the third.
Mr. HUBERT. It was at the second that you had raised your price, I
think, to $25,000.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was either that meeting or the third meeting that
you got the information about the contact point being in this hotel.
Mrs. RICH. I am not sure which one it was, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated that you did not know where this house was
located in Dallas.
Mrs. RICH. I couldn’t give you a street; no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us a general area of Dallas?
Mrs. RICH. I am sorry, sir, I wish I could. I would recognize the house
if I saw it. I cannot explain the human mind to you. Why is it that
sometimes if you don’t want to remember something, you can block things
off? It was something distasteful to me. I have perhaps not been a
model person but——
Mr. HUBERT. Have you heard from this man Dave since you left Dallas?
Mrs. RICH. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Does the name Dave Cherry mean anything to you?
Mrs. RICH. That’s it. I have been wracking my brain for that name. A
swell-looking fellow—crewcut, young, real college-looking type.
Mr. HUBERT. How long had you known him?
Mrs. RICH. A couple of months.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you meet him?
Mrs. RICH. University Club. I believe I met him there. Just precisely
where I met him I don’t know. I think the University Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that prior to the time your husband came to Dallas?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember if I met him before or after, to be
truthful.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, he was the man who made the contact.
Mrs. RICH. Again, as I told the FBI, I will swear about 99 percent of
it that he was the one.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you went there—he was present at three meetings.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. And you knew him for 2 months prior to that.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct—about.
Mr. HUBERT. Why should there be any doubt in your mind whatsoever?
Mrs. RICH. Because somewhere another face keeps popping up. And don’t
ask me to go into it, because I could not if I tried.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you think it might not be Dave Cherry?
Mrs. RICH. No; that it is. I am about 1 percent unsure. And I told the
FBI that. But that is the only face I can put with that. And I keep
putting Dave in that car and over there with us.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you advise your husband about being tailed recently?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; my husband is aware of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now——
Mrs. RICH. As I say, I don’t believe this has anything to do with this
at all. I told you merely because I was told to. Otherwise I would
never point it out.
Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps we ought to get for the record what the names of
these Secret Service and FBI agents are. I think you mentioned their
last names. Do you know their first names?
Mrs. RICH. No; I do not, sir. I would not know them if I saw them.
Mr. HUBERT. They just spoke to you on the telephone?
Mrs. RICH. That’s correct.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know they were FBI agents?
Mrs. RICH. The first time when Mr. Fahety called me I was not sure, and
I would not answer any questions. So he said, “Call me back collect”
and I called the FBI back collect and it was true enough. Mr. Sweeny I
know it was, because he said he bought the tickets and had information
only the Secret Service would know, and that Mr. Milton would pick me
up subsequently, which he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned, I think, Mrs. Rich, that you were going to
use a boat to transport the guns to Cuba and the people back.
Mrs. RICH. That’s correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was this boat located?
Mrs. RICH. From what I understood; in Miami.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of a boat was it?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t know. I was under the impression it might have been
an old picket boat.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What gave you that impression?
Mrs. RICH. Just the talk about it. I kind of got the impression that it
might have been one that had been—you know how the Coast Guard and the
Navy would sell them off sometime.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Dave Cherry been a friend of your husband’s?
Mrs. RICH. No; I don’t believe so. I do not know who his friends were
when he was in Dallas. Eddie Brawner and Youngblood were. Eddie Brawner
could probably tell you more on this than I could; because my husband
talked to him and wanted to go on the boat with him. He and Eddie used
to race stock cars and stuff. And he told me—my husband claimed he
used to work for Herb Noble in Dallas. There is something else. And Al
Meadows. Al Meadows claimed he never saw him. He is another underworld
character—back there in prohibition. And they used to run an Oklahoma
gin. My husband claimed he was the only one alive who knew who gunned
Herb Noble down, and that he never told. And I don’t know if it is
true. Eddie Brawner was supposed to be in on this with him. I think he
told Eddie all about this, more than I knew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon after your husband came to Dallas did Dave Cherry
meet him?
Mrs. RICH. I could not really say, actually.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, what was the nature of his friendship for Dave
Cherry?
Mrs. RICH. How did he meet him?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No. To what extent were they friendly?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t know. They would go off some time and I would not
even be there. Actually a lot of the stuff that transpired I could not
tell you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this before or after the meeting with the colonel?
Mrs. RICH. He know Dave before the meeting.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how had he met him?
Mrs. RICH. Through me. And then again I am not clear whether I met
him—this is another point I am not clear on. I am not clear whether Bob
met Dave and introduced him to me or I introduced Dave to Bob. Here
again I am not clear. This may sound ridiculous, but I am not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your husband’s experience with boats?
Mrs. RICH. Again, factually I cannot tell you. Supposedly he had been
in gun running before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the only experience you know of that he had with
boats?
Mrs. RICH. He claimed he owned a big boat, he and Lee Dell owned a big
boat out in California. I guess he did because he had pictures of it
and him working around it. I still have the pictures. Now, Lee Dell,
there is another man could probably shed some light on this. But God
knows where he is. I never met the man. You see, I don’t know just
exactly what I was involved in.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you don’t know what your role was to be in this?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, you mean in this gun-running stuff to Cuba?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mrs. RICH. Just by sheer force of will and apparently because they
wanted my husband, I was going to go along.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were going to go along as a passenger?
Mrs. RICH. I was going to help working the boat, because I had
knowledge of boats.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What knowledge did you have of the boats?
Mrs. RICH. I was born and brought up in Biddeford, Maine. I have worked
on lobster boats a good many years off and on. My uncle owns them.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any occasion on which you went to the
University Club and had some drinks and didn’t pay for them?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t think I ever paid for drinks at the University Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Why?
Mrs. RICH. Dave never took money.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go alone?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember. I believe so. Maybe, maybe not.
Mr. HUBERT. But they would not take your money?
Mrs. RICH. Dave never charged me. He always told me it was all right.
And I don’t drink anyway. All I drink is coke. Once in a great, great
while I will drink either a grasshopper or like last night I was all
keyed up so I had a brandy Alexander before I went to bed. But I might
have done this five times in 10 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember an argument you had with your former and
deceased husband, Robert Perrin, in the University Club, which argument
was witnessed by Dave Cherry?
Mrs. RICH. I never had an argument with my husband in the University
Club or anywhere else.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the manager of the University Club telling
you that neither you nor your husband could return to the club
thereafter?
Mrs. RICH. I do not.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever telephone Cherry advising him that you were
leaving for New Orleans and that you expected to work for the Playboy
Club there?
Mrs. RICH. I believe I did. I might have, because that is what my plans
happened to have been.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you in fact work for the Playboy Club?
Mrs. RICH. Yes, I did.
Mr. HUBERT. For how long?
Mrs. RICH. 2 or 3 nights.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened?
Mrs. RICH. I didn’t like it. For one thing, you were not allowed to
keep tips.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live in New Orleans?
Mrs. RICH. Part of the time down in one of the Sisters’ places, down
in the French Quarter, on St. Philip’s Street. And then 1713 Calhoun.
That is where my husband died. And various other places which I cannot
remember, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What did your husband do for a living while you were in New
Orleans?
Mrs. RICH. The last time he had the best position I have ever seen him
hold. He was working for a construction company.
Mr. HUBERT. Which one?
Mrs. RICH. Oh, dear. Dickie Bennett, Mr. McHane, those were two of his
bosses—Mr. White.
Mr. HUBERT. What construction was he working on?
Mrs. RICH. Well, he was a mechanic for the heavy equipment. He was just
getting a raise and everything when this happened.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the location where he was working?
Mrs. RICH. Yes, out in Jeff Parish.
Mr. HUBERT. Was the building going up there?
Mrs. RICH. No, they had this contract for the phone company. They would
lay all their roads, and the poles and stuff, and various things. He
would go out on jobs. I got him the job through Dickie Bennett.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not work at that time?
Mrs. RICH. I——
Mr. HUBERT. I mean the time you were in New Orleans.
Mrs. RICH. I would rather not answer that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This——
Mrs. RICH. I will answer to this extent. For one thing, I dealt black
jack.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mrs. Rich, you mentioned the name of a man by the name of
Brawner. Now, did Mr. Brawner ever attend any of these meetings with
the colonel?
Mrs. RICH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So his only knowledge of this would be what your husband
might have told him.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What does Mr. Brawner do for a living?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t know what Eddie does—odd jobs.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a man is he?
Mrs. RICH. Middle age—40, maybe. Does a lot of work with kids in these
go carts—soap box derbies and stuff. I guess they used to be in the
carnival together. As I say, everything I say, I don’t know how much
truth there is in it from what my husband told me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where does Mr. Brawner live?
Mrs. RICH. Grand Prairie.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where in Grand Prairie?
Mrs. RICH. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is he married?
Mrs. RICH. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he have a family?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; he does. I believe his wife’s name is Mary.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many children does he have?
Mrs. RICH. I don’t remember—quite a few—three or four.
I would like one thing known. Until the time I met my husband and since
he died I have done nothing that I would be ashamed of, nothing I would
not do in public. Now that I am married to Mr. Rich I do not want any
recriminations due to the fact of the period of time I was married to
my husband. My husband—the first year and a half of our marriage was
beautiful. Then my husband turned me out. Don’t ask me why I didn’t
leave him. Everyone else asked me that. It is not easy being something
that is against everything that you believe in or stand for 2 years.
There were periods—I told the FBI this, and I might as well state it
right here. I was a prostitute—call it what you may—call girl, madam.
It still boils down to the same damn thing. When I worked, he worked.
When I quit, he quit.
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Robert Perrin?
Mrs. RICH. I am talking about Robert Perrin.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you marry Mr. Perrin?
Mrs. RICH. July of—August of 1960, I believe—1961. I have forgotten.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to that time you had never been in any trouble with
the police?
Mrs. RICH. No; except when I was 16, I was driving a car with no
license and had been taking some medicine and I hit a pole with it, and
lied to my uncle, who was the judge, and he made me pay a fine. He made
me spend overnight in our own little jail in our own little town to
teach me a lesson, and it did. He said if I had not lied, it would have
been all right.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the significance of your remark that when you
worked he worked, and when you did not work——
Mrs. RICH. As long as I was hustling he would work, and as long as I
wasn’t hustling he would not work.
Mr. HUBERT. Does that mean he was——
Mrs. RICH. My husband turned me out. That is what it means.
Mr. HUBERT. Turned you out of the house?
Mrs. RICH. This is an expression used in that particular trade.
Mr. HUBERT. What you mean is——
Mrs. RICH. He taught me how to be a prostitute, obtained dates for me,
et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. I married into a very respectable
family. I come from a respectable family. And I came here today all
set on any question such as this to take the fifth amendment, or just
refuse to answer.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, ma’am, let the record show that a moment ago, when
you said you would rather not go into this, you were not pressed into
going into it, but you said you wished to do so, is that correct?
Mrs. RICH. That is not correct.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the situation?
Mrs. RICH. Why did I do it?
Mr. HUBERT. No; why did you tell us about this?
Mrs. RICH. I am sorry. Change my statement from that is not correct to
that is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say a moment ago—let me get this clear—when you
said that is a matter you did not want to go into, you will agree with
me, will you not, that I did not pursue the matter, but that you then
said “I might as well tell you” and proceeded to do so.
Mrs. RICH. That is correct. Why did I do so?
Mr. HUBERT. No, ma’am; I am not asking you why.
Mrs. RICH. All right, that’s fine.
Mr. HUBERT. I think we do have the date of your husband’s death.
Mrs. RICH. August 29, 1962, city of New Orleans.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say there was an autopsy made?
Mrs. RICH. Yes; there was. He had been dead 2 days before I knew it. I
wasn’t there. I think all I felt was a great sense of relief.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mrs. Rich, is it not a fact that there has been no
off-the-record conversation between us at all?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct?
Mr. HUBERT. Is it not a fact that all that has occurred between you and
me in this interview, with Mr. Griffin, is all on the record?
Mrs. RICH. That is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Thank you, Mrs. Rich.
TESTIMONY OF EARL RUBY
The testimony of Earl Ruby was taken at 9 a.m., on June 3, 1964, at 200
Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin and
Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Earl Ruby.
My name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the Advisory Staff of the
General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of
President Kennedy.
Under the provisions of the Presidential Executive Order 11130,
dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137,
and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s Commission, in
conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have
been authorized by the Commission to take a sworn deposition from you.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relative to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.
In particular as to you, Mr. Ruby, the nature of the inquiry today is
to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and about
any possible relationship of Jack Ruby with that death, and any other
pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Now, Mr. Ruby, I think you appear here today by virtue of a letter
addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel for the staff of
the President’s Commission. Is that a fact, sir?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is true.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that received?
Mr. RUBY. I received that Monday when I returned home from work about 7
p.m., it was waiting for me.
Mr. HUBERT. It was June 1?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the date of it?
Mr. RUBY. That it was mailed?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. It was mailed May 28.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think there is any problem about it, but just
to make certain, under the rules adopted by the Commission you are
entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this
deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive the
3-day notice if he wishes. I think that there has actually been a 3-day
notice under the rules of the Commission since the 3 days commence to
run from the time of the mailing of the document, but in this case, as
I said, the rules provide that you can waive the 3-day written notice,
and I will ask you now if you are willing to waive it and go on with
your testimony today.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I am willing to waive the 3-day notice.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand, then, and raise your right hand, so I may
administer the oath.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give in this
matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name, please, sir?
Mr. RUBY. Earl R. Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Forty-nine.
Mr. HUBERT. You are married?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who are you married to? What was the maiden name of the
lady you married?
Mr. RUBY. Margie Greene.
Mr. HUBERT. And have you been married only once?
Mr. RUBY. No; I was married twice.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of your first wife?
Mr. RUBY. Mildred Brownstein.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you marry her, and where?
Mr. RUBY. I married her in Chicago in 1945.
Mr. HUBERT. And how was that marriage dissolved?
Mr. RUBY. Through divorce.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was the divorce obtained?
Mr. RUBY. In Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. You have been married, then, twice only?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And do you have any children?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; three.
Mr. HUBERT. Any from the first marriage?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. For the record, would you state the names of the children
and their ages?
Mr. RUBY. Robert, 15 years of age; Denise, 13 years of age; and Joyce,
10 years of age.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you presently reside?
Mr. RUBY. 29925 Woodland Drive, Southfield, Mich.
Mr. HUBERT. Is Southfield near Detroit?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; it is a suburb, northwest suburb of Detroit.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Ruby, I wish to get some general background concerning
you, starting off with where you were born and where you spent the
early years of your life. Will you tell us, please?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir. I was born in Chicago on April 16, 1915, and I
lived on what is known as the east side of Chicago, and went to school
in that area for a few years, and then my mother and father became
separated, and I was sent to a foster home, and then I also was sent
to live on a farm for a year, a little more than a year. Then I came
back and lived in another foster home for awhile. Then we sort of,
the family sort of, got together and I moved back with my mother and
the rest of the family other than my father, and then we more or less
lived together until I enlisted in the Service in 1942, and then my
mother passed away in 1944, and then I became married in 1945. Is that
skipping too much, do you think?
Mr. HUBERT. No; I would like to go back a bit and get some dates on
some of the things you have said there. For example, when did your
father and mother separate so that home was broken?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I don’t remember, it is so far.
Mr. HUBERT. How old were you, roughly?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t even know, 8, 7, 8, 9. I don’t even remember.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you think it would have been around the
early 1920’s, 1922, 1923, 1924, somewhere along in there?
Mr. RUBY. Yes. I don’t remember those dates at all.
Mr. HUBERT. What were the foster homes? Were they sort of orphanages?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or homes.
Mr. RUBY. Private homes.
Mr. HUBERT. Private homes?
Mr. RUBY. Private homes.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you separated from your brothers and sisters when you
went to the foster home, or did they go to the same foster home?
Mr. RUBY. On the farm I was with my brother Sam, and Jack was in
another farm some distance away from us. In the foster home Sam and I
were together again, I think, just Sam and I. Then in another foster
home, I think Jack was with us. The three of us were in one foster home
together.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you said that you lived at what was called the east
side in Chicago.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; it was like the ghetto of Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. I wanted to get what sort of a neighborhood is that? What
sort of a district was it?
Mr. RUBY. It was the Maxwell Street district of Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you describe that a bit?
Mr. RUBY. It is where they have the pushcarts on the street. I don’t
know a word that would describe that, but you know, have all their
wares displayed right on the street and right on the sidewalk. It is
several blocks long.
Mr. HUBERT. The foster homes were not in that neighborhood, were they?
Mr. RUBY. No, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Where were the farms?
Mr. RUBY. The farm that I was on was in Woodstock, Ill.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of work were you doing on the farm?
Mr. RUBY. We helped the farmer, you know, with regular farm chores.
We fed the cows and the horses and took the cows to the pasture and
brought them back.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go to school during all that time?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Even when you were on the farm?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure.
Mr. HUBERT. So that what is your educational background?
Mr. RUBY. I finished high school.
Mr. HUBERT. Which one?
Mr. RUBY. Crane High School in Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any other formal education in the sense of
special training in any field?
Mr. RUBY. I would say no.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us something of the background and early life
of your brother Jack, say, from the time 1925 forward, 1930, along in
there? I think he is a couple of years older than you.
Mr. RUBY. Yes. He is about 3 years older than I am. Well, I can tell
you that he always seemed to be in fights in one manner or another that
I can remember. He was like the bodyguard of the family, you might say,
because in those years we lived a half block from Roosevelt Road, and
on the other side of the road was the Italian section, and that was
called, we used to call it Dago Town, and the Jews couldn’t go near
that street. And my sisters, well, if they weren’t escorted to the
streetcars then and nobody arranged to meet them at the streetcar when
they returned from work, they would be insulted and abused. So that
was, more or less, Jack’s job, if I recall, to meet them there.
He always had to go and meet them at the streetcar when they were
returning from work. In the morning I don’t think it was so bad because
so many people were going to the streetcar.
Mr. HUBERT. How old was Jack at that time that you are describing? I
gather it would have been after the family was brought together again.
Mr. RUBY. No, no, no. This goes back, it must have been in the
twenties. Maybe he was 15 years old or so.
Mr. HUBERT. When did the family come back together again after having
been separated?
Mr. RUBY. Maybe 1928 or 1929. I am not sure of these dates, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. The reason I asked is because I was under the impression
that after your father left, there was a breakup of the family, and
then you were not living in this section of Chicago.
Mr. RUBY. No. We moved west on Sacramento Boulevard. That is when I
remember coming back to the family.
Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at are these instances that Jack had to
act as bodyguard against the Italian element, as you put it. That was
not when you were living in foster homes, was it?
Mr. RUBY. No, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Nor was it when you were living on the farm?
Mr. RUBY. No, no, no. That was in Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. So it was either prior to the breakup of the family or
afterwards?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. After the reconciliation, or was it both?
Mr. RUBY. I would say that I remember it was prior.
Mr. HUBERT. He was just a teenager then?
Mr. RUBY. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. When the family was brought together again, which was
around 1928, where did the family live then?
Mr. RUBY. On Sacramento Boulevard in Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is a different thing from the so-called east side?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is further west.
Mr. HUBERT. And you didn’t have any such difficulties at that time?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; we did, because even though we were west we were still
borderlining the Italian element, but we were further west. But it was
an improvement as to the other section.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, the family remained more or less as a unit, I gather
it is your testimony, until the war came.
Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes. Before the war Jack lived in San Francisco for
awhile.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did he live there, do you know?
Mr. RUBY. It would be a few years. I don’t know exactly.
Mr. HUBERT. I think he went there with your sister.
Mr. RUBY. That is right, sir; and he was working for a newspaper
selling subscriptions.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why they went out to the west coast?
Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. It was just Eva and Jack?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Had the other girls married by then?
Mr. RUBY. I think one sister was married. I think my sister Ann was
married by then.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever, yourself, been convicted of any felony?
Mr. RUBY. No; never.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any business dealings at all with Jack prior
to 1933, that is to say, prior to the time you moved to the west coast?
Mr. RUBY. Business dealings? No; because I was going to school then. I
was in grammar school and high school.
Mr. HUBERT. In 1933 actually you were 18.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I was in high school.
Mr. HUBERT. What about your business associations with Jack after his
return from the west coast, until you went into the service? Did you
have any?
Mr. RUBY. Yes. We worked together for, oh, I think maybe a year. He
and another fellow, I think his name is Harry Epstein, organized the
Spartan Novelty Co., which has been out of business for many years.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that a corporation?
Mr. RUBY. No; it was just a small company, very.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you a part of it then, or did you become a part of it?
Mr. RUBY. No; I was only an employee. I worked with them.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the business of that company?
Mr. RUBY. It was selling cedar chests with candy and punchcards.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that business last?
Mr. RUBY. Only until, I worked with them only until the war broke out,
because I came back. I was working with them—right after the war broke
out December 7, then February—some time in February—I enlisted in the
Seabees of the Navy, and then I went into the service, and when I
came out of the service, my other three brothers were still in, and I
started up the same type of business, cedar chests with candy.
Mr. HUBERT. This Spartan Novelty Co. was really prior to the war then?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And it lasted how many years?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I only worked for them about a year.
Mr. HUBERT. Is Epstein still living?
Mr. RUBY. Still living? Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Where?
Mr. RUBY. In Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. What business is he in?
Mr. RUBY. He sells, manufactures and sells—what would you call that—I
think onyx desk sets. I did have business dealings then. Do you want me
to go on now?
Mr. HUBERT. I wanted to ask you about a trip that I think you took to
Seattle in 1941. Do you remember that?
Mr. RUBY. Seattle?
Mr. HUBERT. Washington; yes.
Mr. RUBY. Seattle in 1941. In 1942 in the service, 1942.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you did go to Seattle?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, because I went through the Seabees. I was in the
Seabees, and we shoved off from Bremerton, Wash., which, as you know,
is right across the bay from Seattle. That is the only time I remember
being there.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember the name of Daniel Sloan?
Mr. RUBY. I know the Sloan family in Chicago, but I don’t know if his
name is Daniel.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know any Sloan family, and particularly a Daniel
Sloan, in Seattle?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. And your statement is that you did not visit him prior to
the war at all?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or had you ever been to Seattle prior to the war?
Mr. RUBY. No. Only with the Seabees when we stayed at Camp—I can’t
remember—I think it is Lewis, Fort Lewis there. We stayed with the Army
because they had no facilities, and we then went across to Bremerton
and we got on a ship there and left from there.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go to?
Mr. RUBY. The Aleutian Islands.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in the service?
Mr. RUBY. In the service? About 2 years.
Mr. HUBERT. And were you honorably discharged?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You left the service prior to the end of the war, then?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you explain how that came about?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I had some trouble with a varicocele in my testicles.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you sure it is not varicose?
Mr. RUBY. No, they call it varicocele. It is a little different.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you get a medical discharge?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, I think it is called a medical.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any disability of such a nature that you received
disability pay?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, 10 percent.
Mr. HUBERT. And you still do?
Mr. RUBY. Yes. Anyhow, how this took place, they were going to operate,
and they prepared me for the operation the night before. You know, they
shaved me and all that, and give me the pill, the sleeping pill or
whatever it was, and then the next morning I got up and I was dopey, of
course, and I felt—and there was no operation—no pain, and I couldn’t
understand it, and so when I was able enough to talk coherently I
called the nurse and asked her what happened. She says they changed
their mind, and they were going to discharge me from the service
because they didn’t think I would be of much use to them after the
operation. I think that was the reason, or they decided that.
Mr. HUBERT. So you left the service in 1944?
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you go then?
Mr. RUBY. Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you live with?
Mr. RUBY. The family.
Mr. HUBERT. And what did you do?
Mr. RUBY. And I started up this cedar chest business again.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a trade name then?
Mr. RUBY. I called it Earl Products Co.
Mr. HUBERT. It was not a corporation?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any kind of a punchboard operation?
Mr. RUBY. No; that was before. That was the Spartan Novelty. Mine was
just selling—no, I sold some punchboards, that is right. I sold some
punchboards with my operation for about a year.
Mr. HUBERT. These were candy punchboards, were they?
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Where you might win some candy, is that correct, if you
punched the right number?
Mr. RUBY. Well, they could win a box of candy or win a pen set, I think
it was.
Mr. HUBERT. What area did you operate in as to the Earl Products Co.?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I operated it through Earl Mail, more or less, through
advertising in the Billboard Magazine, and I shipped in, it wasn’t a
large operation, but I shipped out of State all the way across the
country. I don’t remember the States, but I did ship quite a few States
over the years.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were alone at the time?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, I was by myself then.
Mr. HUBERT. Did your brothers ultimately join you?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; as my brothers came out of the service, I took them in
and gave them a piece of the business. First Sam came out.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they invest?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or they just came in?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. They didn’t put up any money?
Mr. RUBY. When Sam came out, I gave him half interest. Then when my
oldest brother came out——
Mr. HUBERT. That is Jack?
Mr. RUBY. No; Hyman. And then I took him in. Then when Jack came out,
then I took him in. So we were all together for not too long because it
just wasn’t enough for all of us.
Mr. HUBERT. You all were sharing the profits?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Equally?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It was not on a salary or commission basis?
Mr. RUBY. I think we were sharing that equally. I am quite sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened to the company?
Mr. RUBY. Well, then my brother Hyman left us, and then there was Jack,
Sam, and myself left.
Mr. HUBERT. What did Hyman leave for? What was the reason for his
leaving?
Mr. RUBY. There just wasn’t enough money, and you know when there is
not enough money we have a few arguments in the family, so he decided
to leave.
Mr. HUBERT. What business did he go into?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t remember. I think he went himself in some company.
Mr. HUBERT. Then there were three of you. What happened then?
Mr. RUBY. Then my sister Eva had been in Dallas for, oh, a few years,
and she had been writing to Jack and telling him how good it was down
there.
Mr. HUBERT. What was she doing, do you recall?
Mr. RUBY. Running a nightclub. I think it was called the Silver Spur.
Mr. HUBERT. And then?
Mr. RUBY. So Jack and Sam had an argument, and so we just couldn’t get
along, so we decided to buy Jack out.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say you and Sam decided to do that?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes, yes; and we then bought him out. I think we paid
him something like $14,000 or $15,000, 14,000 and some hundred dollars,
and he left for Dallas, and he remained there until the incident
happened.
Mr. HUBERT. When he had the argument with Sam which led to his leaving
the Earl Products Co., did he intend then to go to Dallas? Was that one
of the causes for his leaving?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know what was in his mind. I don’t remember. I just
don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. How was he paid?
Mr. RUBY. We paid him a lump sum, about $14,000 or $15,000, so when he
left he had quite a bit of money.
Mr. HUBERT. In cash?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; he had quite a bit of money.
Mr. HUBERT. And he left for Dallas shortly thereafter?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; very shortly thereafter he left.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been what year, sir; about?
Mr. RUBY. I think 1947; 1947.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you keep in contact with him?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; we corresponded, not too often. We came up every few
years. Of course, he came up for my mother’s funeral in 1944. Then he
came up for my dad’s funeral.
Mr. HUBERT. He came from the service for your mother’s funeral, I
suppose?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is right. At that time he was in the service.
Mr. HUBERT. And your father died in what year?
Mr. RUBY. 1960.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that you and your brother Sam changed
your name from Rubenstein to Ruby by a court proceeding for that
purpose?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that a coordinated decision between you and Sam?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You know, do you not, that Jack did the same thing about
the same time?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that coordinated with him, too?
Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think so. In our conversations in telling him
that we were doing it, maybe he decided to do it, but I don’t know if
it had any bearing at all.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the reason for the change of name?
Mr. RUBY. Well, first, everybody called me Ruby, even in the service,
and wherever I went they called me Ruby, so that was one of the reasons
to change it.
Mr. HUBERT. After Jack left did you and Sam continue in business?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. For how long?
Mr. RUBY. For possibly 8 or 9 years, anyhow.
Mr. HUBERT. You still lived in Chicago at that time?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what was the cause of the breakup of the Earl
Products Co. which then consisted of you and Sam only, and of Sam’s
removal to Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I didn’t like—he was supposed to handle the shop and
I was handling the office and the advertising, and by this time, when
I say “shop” you must understand we were now in the manufacturing
business.
Mr. HUBERT. What were you manufacturing?
Mr. RUBY. We were manufacturing aluminum salt and pepper shakers, key
chains, bottle openers, screw drivers, small hammers.
Mr. HUBERT. How large an operation was that?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I think our maximum sales there reached about a quarter
of a million dollars.
Mr. HUBERT. How many employees did you have at the maximum?
Mr. RUBY. Its maximum we had there was probably 40 at any given time.
Anyhow, he was supposed to run the shop and I was supposed to run the
office, and I didn’t think he was taking care of the shop the way he
should, and I told him several times, and finally he says, “Well, if
you can do better, you can take care of that yourself,” and he didn’t
report to work for almost a year.
In the meantime, I was giving him his check every week. So, finally I
decided after waiting that long that the only thing to do was dissolve
the partnership and buy him out.
Mr. HUBERT. How much did you pay him when you bought him out?
Mr. RUBY. I paid him a total of about $30,000.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say you actually paid him a weekly salary check?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Although he didn’t do any work at all?
Mr. RUBY. That is right.
Mr. HUBERT. What was he doing as a matter of fact during that year?
Mr. RUBY. Nothing. He was just—just nothing.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t even see him do you mean?
Mr. RUBY. No; I didn’t see him for about almost a year.
Mr. HUBERT. And you made no effort to correct that situation?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; I talked and members of the family talked to him,
and finally in order to dissolve it, I even called Jack and had him
come up from Dallas to see if he could, you know, make peace in the
family, and he just couldn’t do it.
Mr. HUBERT. That would have been around 1954 or 1955?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; right in there.
Mr. HUBERT. Then when you bought out Jack, did you continue to operate
the Earl Products Co. alone?
Mr. RUBY. You mean Sam?
Mr. HUBERT. Sam I mean; yes.
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; I operated until 1959.
Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened to the company?
Mr. RUBY. Then I sold it.
Mr. HUBERT. To whom?
Mr. RUBY. To Herschel Oliff, and the reason I sold it was I was
manufacturing a line of novelties, and the Japan imports were just
cutting down my business and I could see the handwriting on the wall,
so I decided I had better get out while I can, which I did.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Then what did you do?
Mr. RUBY. Then I didn’t work for, oh, 6 or 8 months.
Mr. HUBERT. I assume you were living off of the profits?
Mr. RUBY. Well, he was paying me.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean the purchaser, Mr. Oliff, was paying you?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; he gave me so much down and so much a week so I was
able to get along. Anyhow, at that time I became depressed and I was
thinking of doing away with myself, so I went over to the veterans
hospital in Chicago and talked to them over there, and they suggested I
come in there, which I did, and I stayed a few weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you were hospitalized?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; they hospitalized me in the psychopathic ward there, and
I stayed there a week or two, and then I couldn’t see—there were so
many of us and they couldn’t, at least I didn’t think they were helping
me, so I left one day. I just up and walked out; but then I got sick
again.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you became depressed again?
Mr. RUBY. I became depressed again.
Mr. HUBERT. How long after?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, just a few days.
Mr. HUBERT. So you went back?
Mr. RUBY. So I went back again. Then I decided well, the only way I can
help myself, I mean I can do myself any good, is get out of this place
and get a job.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you married then?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure.
Mr. HUBERT. That was to your first wife then?
Mr. RUBY. No, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Your second wife?
Mr. RUBY. Second wife, and I said I’ve got my family you know, I had
better take care of them. The only thing that will help me, at least
that was my thinking, is to go out and get a job and maybe that is what
I need, you know, because I felt that I wouldn’t be able to hold a job
or something. Anyhow those were my thoughts. So, I went out and got a
job for Worldwide Music in Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of that work?
Mr. RUBY. They sell and place juke boxes.
The Seeberg Agency and the Rockola Distributors, a pretty big company,
nice people, and I worked there about a year.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your specific job?
Mr. RUBY. I was, I would say assistant manager. I supervised the other
men and the servicemen.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t actually make the contacts with the taverns?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, I made some of those; yes, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, the machines were solely music machines?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. No slot machines?
Mr. RUBY. No, no, no. No slot machines. This is one of the better rated
companies in this field, very nice people.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay?
Mr. RUBY. I stayed with them about a year. Then my best friend’s
brother, my best friend’s name is Mike Nemzin, his brother’s name is
George Marcus, that is his name legally.
Mr. HUBERT. They have different names but the fact is they are brothers?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is right. That is why I wanted to mention that. He
owned——
Mr. HUBERT. When you say “he” who do you mean?
Mr. RUBY. George Marcus; I am now speaking of.
Mr. HUBERT. The brother of your best friend?
Mr. RUBY. Yes. In fact, he was instrumental in my getting the other
job for Worldwide Music because he knew one of the—he was in the dry
cleaning business, George Marcus has today one plant in Marion, Ind.
and one plant in Benton Harbor, Mich., and has a brother-in-law running
each one. And we had been friends for about 25 or 30 years, and he
approached me with the idea of going into business with him in another
cleaning plant if we could locate a good one. You know, buy a going
business, of course, and I was very much interested.
Mr. HUBERT. That is Marcus?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; Marcus I am speaking of.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your best friend was his brother?
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. But you were friendly with him for 25 years?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir; yes. In fact, he originally helped me get started
when I first came out of service. I had no money to speak of.
Mr. HUBERT. That is Marcus?
Mr. RUBY. Marcus, and he lent me $500, I think, to get started.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, go on and tell us what happened?
Mr. RUBY. And Marcus and I talked over the possibility of going into
the cleaning business together, and he being so successful, I was very
happy that he even, you know, came to me and was interested in my
running the plant, because he is more or less a silent partner.
So, sure enough, we checked out a few plants and then we happened to
hear of this plant in Detroit, Cobo Cleaners, that is the plant. It
was originally owned by the mayor of Detroit. And we heard about this
plant and we went to Detroit, checked that out and checked out the
possibilities, and we decided it was a pretty good deal. And so we
bought that as equal partners. And that was in 1961, October of 1961.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you pay for it?
Mr. RUBY. We paid for it, for the real estate and the business,
$120,000.
Mr. HUBERT. And you each put up half?
Mr. RUBY. Yes. Of course, we only paid so much down, you know. We
didn’t pay the full price, of course.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is the business you are in now?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And you run the operation?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; and he is more or less silent. He lives in Glenview,
Ill., a suburb of Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. And as I understand it, he owns these other plants that you
mentioned?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And runs them through——
Mr. RUBY. The brother-in-laws. But he gave the brother-in-laws 35
percent of each one.
Mr. HUBERT. I think for the record perhaps we had better state the
names of those other companies and the cities and the names of the
brothers-in-law.
Mr. RUBY. OK. The name of the plant that George Marcus and his
brother-in-law owns in Marion, Ind., is called Modern Laundry and Dry
Cleaners, and his brother-in-law’s name there is Harry Marks.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that his sister’s husband?
Mr. RUBY. Husband, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. RUBY. And the name of the plant in Benton Harbor, Mich., is called
the American Laundry and Dry Cleaners, and the brother-in-law there who
is married to George Marcus’ sister is Elwood Jacobs.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know those people, the two brothers-in-law?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes, you know, being close to my best friend for so many
years, I was always close to the family as a whole.
Mr. HUBERT. But you have no interest in those plants?
Mr. RUBY. No, no.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have a 50-percent interest in the Cobo plant?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did we have some indication that there was a company or
something, sort of & business enterprise called the Earl Ruby Co? Will
you tell us about that?
Mr. RUBY. When I sold the Earl Products Co., I sold the whole Earl
Products Co. and he was supposed to pay me—he gave me so much money
down, about $20,000 down, I think—and he was supposed to pay me the
balance out so much a year.
Well, after he paid so much, he paid me for about a year or so, he said
he can’t pay me any more money, he wants to make a new deal on the
balance of the money that he owed me. So we made a deal that he would
only give me $10,000 more. He owed me about $30,000 or so. We settled
for $10,000 in cash plus I would take over the camera manufacturing.
We had a little camera we manufactured. He would give me the tools and
dies of that business, and also the tools and dies to make a little
nameplate that kids fasten on the back of their bicycles. So when
I took that over, I had to have a company name to run it, and so I
decided to call that Earl Ruby Co.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any associates in that company?
Mr. RUBY. No, no. And I since, last year I had to close that up. It was
just not doing any——
Mr. HUBERT. That operation continued after you left Chicago?
Mr. RUBY. When I sold it to Oliff, you mean? Oh, yes; for awhile.
Mr. HUBERT. No, no; I mean the Earl Ruby Co?
Mr. RUBY. No. When I left Chicago, there was no Earl Ruby Co. It only
became after he decided he couldn’t pay me the rest of the money, then
I had to start all over again.
Mr. HUBERT. You were in Detroit at the time?
Mr. RUBY. Yes. I couldn’t use Earl Products because he owned that name.
I sold him the name.
Mr. HUBERT. But the operation of the Earl Ruby Co. manufacturing the
cameras and the bicycle plates?
Mr. RUBY. I moved it to Detroit.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, you moved it to Detroit?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you operated then out of Detroit?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, but——
Mr. HUBERT. So you were operating at that time two businesses?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. The cleaning and the——
Mr. RUBY. Yes. Well, the other business I don’t think in all the time
I had it, I don’t think I did $10,000 worth of business in the 2 years
that I tried to run it. It just fizzled out and now there is nothing.
Mr. HUBERT. It folded when?
Mr. RUBY. I folded it at the end of the year.
Mr. HUBERT. Which year?
Mr. RUBY. At the end of 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. And you had run it about 2 years?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, about 2 years, I would say, and there was just no more
sales. I tried to dispose of it or sell it, but I couldn’t even get a
buyer, so I still own the tools and dies but there are no sales.
Mr. HUBERT. Those are just put in a warehouse, the tools and dies?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Hollebrandt?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?
Mr. RUBY. He is the supervisor of our plant. Is that the one you mean?
Mr. HUBERT. I believe so. What is his first name?
Mr. RUBY. Abram.
Mr. HUBERT. Is he the supervisor of Cobo?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When did he become so?
Mr. RUBY. About a year ago, just about a year ago, a little over a year
ago.
Mr. HUBERT. How did this relationship come about? Did you know him
before?
Mr. RUBY. No. I had never heard of him before. When we came to Cobo
Cleaners, we had a supervisor by the name of Charlie Comp, and then
after my being there awhile, I could see that one of the reasons Cobo
wanted to sell out was the supervisor. He just wasn’t running the
plant efficiently. And so I talked to my partner about replacing him
and we finally decided to replace him, and we started looking for a
replacement. And I mentioned it to everyone I knew, and in the cleaning
industry there is different types of cleaning processes, mostly
concerned with the type of soap you use, and we were using, ours is
what you call a solvent plant, and we were using—I can’t think of the
name of the soap. Anyhow, a special soap. I just can’t think of the
trade name.
And the salesman or distributor in our area for this soap is Vernon
Brooks, and I talked to him about getting—asked him if he knew a good
supervisor, and he said he would let me know. And then in a week or
whatever time passed, he called me and says, “Yes, I have a good man in
Rochester, New York.” And, “I think he might be interested.”
So I contacted him and we had him come to Detroit so we could talk to
him and interview him, and then we wanted to see what type of a plant
he was running there, so Marcus, my partner, and I flew to Rochester
one day and Hollebrandt showed us through the plant he was running, and
we liked him. You know, he is a pretty nice fellow. And he seemed to
know his stuff. So we hired him. That is how we got to know him. Other
than that, I had never seen or heard of him before.
Mr. HUBERT. How long was it between the time that you first contacted
Hollebrandt and the time that he actually became the supervisor? What
period of time elapsed?
Mr. RUBY. I would say a couple of months anyhow. It took a couple of
months. Yes, it took a few months.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Oscar Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Oscar Robinson?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know any person who lives at South Haven, Mich.,
particularly at an address 58 Lakeshore Drive?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes, I know those people.
Mr. HUBERT. In South Haven, Mich.?
Mr. RUBY. I know their name is Ruby. I didn’t know his last name. My
in-laws own the cottage next door to them, 56 Lakeshore Drive, and so
I used to go up there on weekends, but I didn’t know his last name was
Oscar.
Mr. HUBERT. No, I didn’t say his last name is Oscar. I think it is
either Ruby or Robinson. What did you know his last name to be?
Mr. RUBY. Ruby, the same as mine.
Mr. HUBERT. But he is not related to you?
Mr. RUBY. No, no, no.
Mr. HUBERT. And he had a cottage which is next door to——
Mr. RUBY. My in-laws.
Mr. HUBERT. Your wife’s——
Mr. RUBY. Family.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Harry C. Futterman?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, that is my wife’s brother-in-law. He is married to my
wife’s sister.
Mr. HUBERT. What does he do for a living?
Mr. RUBY. He worked for the post office until he retired a few years
ago, and now he works for a brother-in-law of his who is in the lumber
business.
Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?
Mr. RUBY. He lives at 7209 Northeast Prairie, in Lincolnwood, Ill.
Mr. HUBERT. Lincoln?
Mr. RUBY. Wood.
Mr. HUBERT. Lincolnwood?
Mr. RUBY. A suburb of Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Colley Sullivan?
Mr. RUBY. Colley Sullivan?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.
Mr. RUBY. No, no, it doesn’t register at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Dominick or Dominic Scorta
or Siorta?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Anesi Umberto?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, I think that is the one.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about him.
Mr. RUBY. I am trying to think. I did business with—no, that is another
name. I know a fellow by the name of Mario Anesi.
Mr. HUBERT. And who is he?
Mr. RUBY. He is the fellow that used to make all our tools and dies in
Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. Tools and dies for the Earl Products?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, I thought that is who you were talking about. Anesi
Umberto, no, I don’t know him.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a Mario Umberto?
Mr. RUBY. Maybe that is the same fellow. I know him by Mario Anesi.
Mr. HUBERT. A-n-e-s-i?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know how you spell his name. I am not even sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen or had any contact with this gentleman in the
last year or so?
Mr. RUBY. Yes. In fact, he was just here, he was just in Detroit for
the tool convention or whatever they call them, and he called me just
to say hello, because he has tools and dies of mine in his place yet,
old things, you know.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was just in the last few weeks, I gather.
Mr. RUBY. Yes. That was about a month ago. That is all.
Mr. HUBERT. Prior to that contact with him, when was the next previous
contact?
Mr. RUBY. Well, he makes the camera shutters, camera shutter parts for
me, and I saw him in Chicago a little more than a year ago. I stopped
in to discuss changing—it is probably a year-and-a-half ago—changing
the die for one of the parts.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any telephone conversations with him in that
interval, during that period?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think I did.
Mr. HUBERT. What would it have been about?
Mr. RUBY. Only about tools and dies. In fact, I tried to sell him the
tools and dies for the nameplate.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that?
Mr. RUBY. Right after I took it over from Mr. Oliff.
Mr. HUBERT. It would have been about a little over 2 years ago?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; and then I would have to talk to him once in awhile
about ordering the parts, if I were in Chicago I would call him and
tell him what I need or something like that. But I know him as Mario
Anesi.
Mr. HUBERT. And you do know as far as your memory serves you, either a
person called Anesi Umberto or a person called Mario Umberto?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anyone whose last name is Umberto,
U-m-b-e-r-t-o?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anyone by the name of Kirk Bibul?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What about a person by the name of Elliott Schwartz?
Mr. RUBY. Elliott Schwartz, he is married to another sister of my wife.
Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?
Mr. RUBY. New York.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have occasion to contact him?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure. I see him, he comes in for events, marriages, bar
mitzvahs and all that stuff. In fact, I wanted to call him last night
because I am so close.
Mr. HUBERT. It is a social relationship, social and family?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. No business relationship?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I was going to have him manufacture the nameplates
for me, when I couldn’t sell them to Mario Anesi, he told me business
was bad up in New York, so I sent the tools and dies there, but we
never used them, never got any sales, so the tools and dies for the
nameplates are just there not being used at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, Edward A. Cobo was the owner of the Cobo Cleaners
prior to the time you bought it out?
Mr. RUBY. The junior, I bought it from the junior, his mother and his
sister. I think Cobo himself had passed away several years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you said he was mayor.
Mr. RUBY. His brother, Al Cobo, was the mayor, but Al and Edward Cobo
owned Cobo Cleaners. The mayor owns half of it.
Mr. HUBERT. But when you bought it, the mayor had died?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And his interest had passed to his family, I take it?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; to probably, I don’t know but I think it probably passed
to his brother and then his brother passed away and then the interest
went to the brother’s wife and son and daughter, and that is who we
bought it from.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Buddy Heard?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any contact with a company called the Anran
Tool and Manufacturing Co.?
Mr. RUBY. Are you sure it is Anran and not Anson?
Mr. HUBERT. Maybe it is Anson.
Mr. RUBY. That is owned by Mario Anesi and his brother.
Mr. HUBERT. So that any contacts you would have had with that company
was really what you were talking about a little while ago?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is right. They made all the parts for us and tools
and dies for, oh, 10 years or more.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know if you stated what Mario Anesi’s brother’s
name was.
Mr. RUBY. One’s name is Burt, that is how I know him by, Burt, and he
has another brother. I don’t even know his name.
Mr. HUBERT. Are they all in this company?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; now, Burt could possibly be Umberto, I don’t know,
because Burt is an unusual name for Italian people.
Mr. HUBERT. And your statement is that your contacts in the last 2
years say with the Anesi’s or the Anson Tool and Manufacturing Company
have been as you have stated in regard to the dies and the manufacture
of shutters and so on?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the Triangle Manufacturing Co.? Have you had any
contact with that company?
Mr. RUBY. Triangle? What do they make?
I once had a Triangle many years ago that made—I think it is
Triangle—made a set of cutting dies for me. I don’t know if it is the
same company.
Mr. HUBERT. Where are they located, do you know?
Mr. RUBY. In Chicago, I think. But I had very little—if I remember, it
was one order. But there are so many Triangles. I even think many years
ago I bought some cartons from a Triangle Carton Company, but you are
saying manufacturing company. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. The Triangle Manufacturing Co. that I am thinking of is in
Oshkosh, Wis.
Mr. RUBY. It don’t sound familiar at all. Does it say what they
make—because in the years we were manufacturing we used to buy parts
and things from all over the country. But it doesn’t seem to register
with me at all, Oshkosh.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection of having made a telephone
call to that company on November 1?
Mr. RUBY. What year?
Mr. HUBERT. 1963.
Mr. RUBY. Oh, then I think I know who that is. I think, I am not
sure now, I think they make, what do you call it, bearings. I think
they make bearings, and the reason I called them, if it is the right
company, I am not even sure of that, is that my brother Jack wanted to
make, had seen this twistboard, it is a little board with a bearing
underneath it, and you stand on it and you learn to twist that way,
and he, knowing that I had been in manufacturing and knew all about
manufacturing, asked me if I could find out where to get this type of
bearing. It was a usual, simple, very inexpensive type. So I don’t know
how I got their name. I think I called somebody. I learned of somebody
that was selling them or making them around Detroit, and I called them.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean making those bearings?
Mr. RUBY. Making the whole twistboard, and I think they referred me to
Triangle, and I called them, if that is the correct company, and had
them send me a sample and a quotation.
Mr. HUBERT. Did anything come of it?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What did Jack propose to do so far as you know?
Mr. RUBY. Well, he was going to, you know——
Mr. HUBERT. Manufacture it?
Mr. RUBY. Have somebody make it and distribute it.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible that he suggested the name Triangle to you?
Mr. RUBY. It is possible. I am not sure. I am not sure where I got that
name, because I think it was only one call I made, and then they said
they would send me the sample, and that was it. I forgot all about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they send the sample?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes; if that is the company, they sent the sample.
Mr. HUBERT. And what did you do with it?
Mr. RUBY. Nothing, because I then got the sample and saw what they
wanted for it. I think they wanted 45 cents just for the bearing part,
and then you had to make this board, and knowing something about
manufacturing, Jack wanted to sell it for about $2 retail, so I told
him if the bearing cost 45 cents and the top cost a quarter and you
have got to put it in a box and package it, you can’t come out, because
you have got almost 80 cents cost to manufacture it and you have got
to give the jobbers 50 and 10 above, that means you get 90 cents. You
can’t work on a dime gross profit. And so I discouraged him about
getting in it, so that was the end of that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he attempt to interest you in getting into this
business?
Mr. RUBY. No; he wanted to make it there in Dallas. He wanted to make
it in Dallas. In fact, he said he was going over, he was going to
have, I think, the Goodwill. I think they manufacture things at a very
reasonable cost, and he said that is how he was going to cut corners.
But I discouraged him anyhow. I couldn’t see it, and it was a good
thing I did because I checked on the sales of the item in the Detroit
area and it was a flop, anyhow.
Mr. HUBERT. Apparently this item wasn’t patented.
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, can you comment as to what you know about an
organization called the Gilt Edge Associates, Finishing Corp., in New
York City?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is owned by Elliott Schwartz and his brother.
Mr. HUBERT. What is that corporation? What do they do?
Mr. RUBY. They do finishing on greeting cards. Some of their work is
called flocking, and they put that glittery substance on greeting cards
and things of that sort, and they also do silk screen work.
Mr. HUBERT. And what was your interest in those products?
Mr. RUBY. That is my brother-in-law.
Mr. HUBERT. That is your brother-in-law?
Mr. RUBY. That is the same Elliott Schwartz that you brought up about.
That is the company he owns. I mean that is my brother-in-law on the
wife’s side.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know an organization or corporation, perhaps just a
company, called the James Welch Co.?
Mr. RUBY. James Welch? No.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you comment on what knowledge you have of an
organization called the Ipsilanti Buffing Co.
Mr. RUBY. Never heard of it.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the Public Vending Co.? Do you know of that
organization?
Mr. RUBY. No. Are they in Detroit?
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know.
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. It doesn’t register at all.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the Troy Plating Co.?
Mr. RUBY. When I was Earl Products, I used to have so many plating
companies to do work for us. Is this a Chicago concern would you know?
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know.
Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall that name.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any contact with an organization called the
General Scientific Corp.?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, General Scientific? Yes. I think that is the company we
used to buy lenses from for our camera, little glass lenses, if I am
not mistaken.
Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to the Troy Plating Co. in Chicago, do you
recall having occasion to have called them from Detroit on October 21?
Mr. RUBY. Let me see, Troy Plating? What did I call them for? Yes, yes,
yes; I know what it is. I think I know what it is now.
In our cleaning operation we have a liner, a copper liner. It is a
large basket, very large, probably 30 inches in diameter and overall
length of about 4 feet, and it was corroded and the corrosion was
coming off on some of our cleaning, and I couldn’t seem to find anyone
in Detroit to plate it. It was just an odd shape. And so I called, I
think that is the reason I called Troy Plating, to see if they could do
it. However, I finally located somebody in Detroit to plate it.
Mr. HUBERT. Your testimony is that that was the occasion for calling
the Troy Co.
Mr. RUBY. I can’t think of any other reason.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about the Dixie Seal and Stamp Co. in Atlanta?
Mr. RUBY. When I took over the nameplate business, that is back from
Oliff, the fellow I had sold it to, Earl Products, and I received a few
small orders for plates, nameplates, and it was foolish to set up my
complete operation for just a few orders, and I knew that Dixie Seal
and Stamp made a very similar item. So rather than my setting up the
whole operation to make the few, I had them make it for me, and so I
called them and talked to them on a few occasions, and they did make
some for me.
Mr. HUBERT. What about the Berger Products Co.?
Mr. RUBY. Berger? Where are they located? That doesn’t strike a bell.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall that?
Mr. RUBY. No. I make so many calls it is hard to remember all of them.
But that doesn’t strike a bell.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already mentioned your relationship with
Mike Nemzin.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; one of my very close friends, and his brother is my
partner.
Mr. HUBERT. Apparently you called him on November 14. Do you recall
that conversation?
Mr. RUBY. November the 14th. I could have called him November 14.
Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?
Mr. RUBY. In Chicago. I think the reason I called then is because
George, his brother, told me he was very sick.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you call him?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall. Probably at his place of business.
Mr. HUBERT. Does he have any connection or have any home or business at
a place called Walled Lake, Mich.?
Mr. RUBY. Are you speaking of Mike Nemzin?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. No; not that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anyone in Walled Lake, Mich.?
Mr. RUBY. No. We have customers there, but I don’t know them personally.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any calls to this place, Walled Lake, Mich.?
Mr. RUBY. No; but since we have customers there, I might have called
and we make so many calls to any of our customers at any given time.
Mr. HUBERT. Would anybody else in your plant be making such calls?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes. We have a girl that does practically nothing but
call customers, for many different reasons, you know. Sometimes they
send in a garment and there is a hole in it.
Mr. HUBERT. Is Walled Lake near Detroit?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; very close.
Mr. HUBERT. But you do have customers that come from that far?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure.
Mr. HUBERT. What contacts have you had with the Denver-Chicago Trucking
Co. in Denver?
Mr. RUBY. Well, they are the people that shipped the tools and dies and
the punch press to take the plates to my brother-in-law Schwartz in New
York, and on route they dropped the press and broke it in half, and so
I had many conversations with them before I could get a settlement out
of them. So I called them several times.
Mr. HUBERT. What about a man by the name of Barney Rothenberg?
Mr. RUBY. What is his first name?
Mr. HUBERT. Barney.
Mr. RUBY. It doesn’t register with me.
Mr. HUBERT. Or Horace Settersfield or Dettersfield.
Mr. RUBY. Delderfield.
Mr. HUBERT. Delderfield?
Mr. RUBY. He is my landlord. I lease his home, or rent a home from him.
Mr. HUBERT. Where does he live?
Mr. RUBY. He lives in California.
Mr. HUBERT. What business is he in?
Mr. RUBY. He is retired, as far as I know. In fact, I have never seen
him. I rent through his agent, but I send my checks to him.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you have had occasion to call him?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was that about and when was it approximately?
Mr. RUBY. Gee, this was right after I moved in there, last fall,
probably September, around in there. When we first rented the place, we
wanted to know if it was all right to decorate, and I think that is why
I called him.
Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to—go ahead.
Mr. RUBY. I called him for another reason, also. Well, I had to call
him and talk about the lease. See, I was taking over, subleasing from
the people that were in there before me, so I think I talked to him
once or twice.
Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to Barney Rothenberg, does it help you any if I
suggest that he lives on Genessee Street in Pontiac, Mich.?
Mr. RUBY. No; now, we go Pontiac. Our trucks go to Pontiac. I don’t
remember calling him.
Mr. HUBERT. Would it be a possibility, then, that that is a customer?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, what about a man by the name of Sidney Jaffe, who
lives in Seattle, Wash.?
Mr. RUBY. Sidney Jaffe?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. You have no recollection?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Of any contact with a man by that name?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Henry Kenter?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall anybody in the past mostly by the name of
Chasin?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. The answer is no to Chasin. Do you know anybody in the
Jaffe family?
Mr. RUBY. Did you say do I know anybody in the Jaffe family?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. In Chicago I do. Julie Jaffe.
Mr. HUBERT. That is a lady?
Mr. RUBY. No; a man. Julius, I think is the correct name. I really
don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, about 20 years.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you some to know him?
Mr. RUBY. Well, first, he is in the advertising specialty supply
business, and we used to do business together a little bit. And then I
knew him before. He grew up in the same neighborhood.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what his father’s name was?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any sisters?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know a girl by the name of Charlotte Jaffe?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or Rosalyn Jaffe?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What about a man by the name of Berke, who married one of
the Jaffe girls?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know any person by the name of Pasol?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of anyone who lives in Muncie, Ind.?
Mr. RUBY. Muncie? No; I don’t think I know anyone at all.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been there?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t think so; never.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if your brother Hyman Rubenstein was interested
in Jack Ruby’s twistboard enterprise?
Mr. RUBY. All I know is that he sent him a sample.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if he attempted to get Hyman financially
interested?
Mr. RUBY. That I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already said that he did not attempt to
get you financially interested.
Mr. RUBY. No, no. All he wanted me to do was get him the best source
for the different parts and he would assemble it in Dallas himself. I
mean by that, he would have somebody do it for him.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you do know Ralph Paul, don’t you?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I met him in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. And how long ago?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I first met him, I think it was, down there about 5
years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the occasion of your meeting him?
Mr. RUBY. Through Jack. Jack introduced us.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it just a social meeting or did you have any business
with him?
Mr. RUBY. I didn’t have any business with him. No business was
discussed.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever had any business dealings with him?
Mr. RUBY. No; I know Jack worked with him, but I really don’t know. At
least I think they had business dealings between themselves, but I am
not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any financial dealings with him?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to lend him any money at any time?
Mr. RUBY. No. [I remember that my brother was going into business with
Ralph Paul and Jack was supposed to put in $6,000 which he did not have
at the time so he asked me to send $6,000 to him or Ralph Paul, which I
did, and I’m sure Ralph Paul endorsed the check but I haven’t located
the check as yet. I don’t remember whether I sent the check to Jack or
Ralph, except that they were supposed to pay the money back to me but
never did. When they informed me that the club had gone broke and they
had no money to pay me, I wrote the $6,000 off as a loss.]
Mr. HUBERT. Did he owe you any money at any time?
Mr. RUBY. Me?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. Ralph Paul?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. I call your attention to the fact that in your 1960 income
tax return you claimed a loss as a result of a worthless judgment note
with reference to Ralph Paul in the sum of $6,000.
Mr. RUBY. That went through my company, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that. Did Ralph Paul do any business or come
to be indebted?
Mr. RUBY. That was through the club. I sent money down to the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Which club? The Sovereign or the Carousel?
Mr. RUBY. I think to organize the Sovereign Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you send the money to, and how much did you send?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall exactly. I think I sent more than one figure,
than one amount, that is.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that transaction in general.
Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall. I would have to see—I don’t recall when I
sent it because it is 4 or 5 years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to get a judgment against Ralph Paul,
that is to say to sue him?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Here is your return for 1960. It might refresh your memory.
Mr. RUBY. This was sent, I think, to organize the Sovereign Club, and
within 6 months the corporation folded or whatever it was, I don’t
recall exactly. And a new corporation was formed. I can’t think of the
new name, because I was out of the picture then.
Mr. HUBERT. What I was trying to get at is, first of all, how you
had a judgment, how you came to get a judgment against Ralph Paul in
connection with the organization of the Sovereign Club.
Mr. RUBY. I sent the money down, but Jack, if I recall, asked me to
send it.
Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we approach it in another way.
Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall the complete details on it.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how you came to be financially interested, or
at least to advance money to Jack in connection with a club, the
organization of a club.
Mr. RUBY. He called me and told me he needed some money for a good deal
club that was going to be organized or taken over or something. It was
some other club before.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you then how much he needed?
Mr. RUBY. I think I sent, I am sure I sent this down, if it so states.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean $6,000?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And what was that to be, for the purchase of stock or a
loan?
Mr. RUBY. I think I originally had stock in the corporation there, in
the original Sovereign Club Corp., and I think now at that time, at
that time Paul signed the note. I think this is how this——
Mr. HUBERT. You mean the note for the money that you sent down?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think something—I am not sure because it was handled
more or less by my accountant. I am not positive how it was set up.
Mr. HUBERT. But I mean your accountant would not have handled the
original sending of the money.
Mr. RUBY. I sent a check, I am quite sure I sent the check.
Mr. HUBERT. To organize the company?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was an investment or a loan, that is what I am
trying to get at, or were there two separate transactions? You
mentioned that Paul signed a note, and that would indicate that there
was a loan made of some sort, you see.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you mentioned that you got some stock which would
indicate that the money was for an investment rather than a loan, or
perhaps a combination. And that is what I am trying to find out, what
it really was.
Mr. RUBY. I am really not sure. I am really not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you in a position at that time to advance that sort of
money without investigating the possibility?
Mr. RUBY. Well, it was my brother.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever loaned him money before?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have got it back?
Mr. RUBY. No; once before I loaned him some money, several times I
loaned him money that I didn’t get back.
Mr. HUBERT. Since he was in Dallas, you mean?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you never took any notes from him?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think I did several years before this, but I don’t
recall all the details on that, either.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he ever pay you anything back on the various loans that
he made from you?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. How much would you say that he owes you now then?
Mr. RUBY. Altogether?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don’t mean including the money you may have
expended since November 24th, but I mean up to that date.
Mr. RUBY. I would say altogether maybe as much as $15,000 that I sent
him.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have never got anything in return for it?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever written off those loans as bad debts?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. The income tax return which you hold in your hand there
says it is a worthless judgment note. Do you recall that you actually
filed the lawsuit against Paul and recovered a judgment which you could
not collect?
Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think——
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall ever hiring any lawyers in Dallas or in the
Dallas area for that purpose?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you clarify for us in anyway at all what this entry
means?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I explained it to my accountant, and he said that is
how you write it off, as far as I know.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you simply gave him the facts?
Mr. RUBY. The facts.
Mr. HUBERT. And he is the one who drew up the return?
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. I think his name is on the front of this. It would have
been Mr. ——
Mr. RUBY. Let me see. Harold Kaminsky.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t one of your sisters married——
Mr. RUBY. That is what I was going to say. He is my brother-in-law.
Mr. HUBERT. Which sister is this?
Mr. RUBY. Eileen.
Mr. HUBERT. She married Harold Kaminsky?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He is an accountant, is he?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he handled this for you?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. You gave him these details?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you invested any money or loaned any money to Jack
after 1960?
Mr. RUBY. After 1960?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think I did. I don’t remember the exact figure.
Mr. HUBERT. What was it in connection with, and about when did it occur?
Mr. RUBY. It must have been just about 1960.
Mr. HUBERT. It was in addition to the $6,000 that we have been talking
about?
Mr. RUBY. I think that is the figure, but I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know that you would have been able to take a loss
for a bad debt or loan made in 1960, that is to say on your return for
1960.
Mr. RUBY. I say I don’t recall. I don’t recall the exact—I would have
to check my records and see when I sent it down.
Mr. HUBERT. By your records, you mean checkbooks and so forth?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What sort of personal records do you have, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. We have a regular set of books.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you talking about the Cobo Cleaners?
Mr. RUBY. No; even before that.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you have a personal set of books?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure. I mean by regular bank stubs and check stubs and
statements.
Mr. HUBERT. You still have retained those?
Mr. RUBY. I think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to make a telephone call or send a
telegram to Havana, Cuba, in 1962, in April of 1962?
Mr. RUBY. April of 1962? The only reason I would have, Jack visited
Cuba, Havana. I don’t know if it was in April, and I may have talked to
him. But I don’t know, I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. You are acquainted with Jack’s visit to Havana?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I know he went there.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he go there once or more than once?
Mr. RUBY. As far as I know, once.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that that was in 1959?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. If it was in 1959, then I couldn’t have made
any call or sent any wire. As far as I know, to Cuba, in 1962. I don’t
remember any, anyhow.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anybody in Cuba?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you think of any reason at all why you might have sent
a telegram or made a phone call to Cuba?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible that some employee of yours might have?
Mr. RUBY. I am trying to think. I can’t think of anyone. I knew of the
fellow that Jack went to visit there, a fellow by the name of McWillie.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you know him?
Mr. RUBY. Jack told me about him.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever met him?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall that in the early part of this year,
specifically on January 6, you were interviewed by an Internal Revenue
agent who asked you about some calls and so forth, and that he
mentioned to you something about a call to Cuba, and that you told him
that you thought it was a telegram?
Mr. RUBY. There should be some record of it if I did. I don’t recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall a conversation with this Internal Revenue
agent whereby he was questioning you concerning whether certain phone
calls were properly deductible business expenses?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that in the course of that conversation he asked you
about the Havana call and that you identified or thought that it was a
telegram?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t see why. I don’t recall sending a telegram. I can’t
think of why it would be in 1962. I can’t think of any reason for it.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it possible that someone else could have called and
charged it to the Cobo Cleaners account?
Mr. RUBY. I doubt it. I just can’t imagine who in 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. In April of 1962 you were with Cobo Cleaners in Detroit
already?
Mr. RUBY. Yes. I can’t think of any reason.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any policy in your business about getting
approval before long-distance calls were made, or how did you manage
that aspect?
Mr. RUBY. No; I mean I don’t watch it that close because we have so
many. Wouldn’t we know, or isn’t there somebody where we sent it so it
could refresh my memory? I don’t think I did.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Pratkins, or possibly
Praskins?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been to Cuba yourself?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Coming back to that Welch Co. I mentioned a moment ago,
would it help you if I stated that I think they are located in
Cambridge, Mass., and it is the Welch Candy Co.? Do you recall anything
about that?
Mr. RUBY. No; you know my brother Hy sells candy. How long ago does
this go back? It doesn’t register with me at all.
Mr. HUBERT. This would have been in May of 1963.
Mr. RUBY. The name doesn’t register at all.
Mr. HUBERT. You have no recollection that you yourself made any call to
the James Welch Candy Co. in Cambridge, Mass.?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Would there be a possibility that someone could have used
your phone and done that?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t think they would. The only possibility, if my brother
Hy does business with them, the only possibility I can think of is that
perhaps at that time he was visiting me and called them. But he would
ask me first, I think.
[I do recall making a call to Welch Candy to ask them if they were to
continue using my camera as a premium.]
Mr. HUBERT. Did he visit you during the year 1963?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time of the year?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it in the spring?
Mr. RUBY. I am not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it about a year ago?
Mr. RUBY. He stopped in a couple of times. Yes; when he is in the
territory he stops in.
Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we take a breather for a minute.
(Brief recess.)
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Griffin, who is working with me in this area, has
some questions to ask you, so let’s get back on the record with the
statement that this is a continuation of the deposition under the same
authority that was used for the commencement of the deposition, and
that you are still under the same oath that you were at the beginning,
and may we have this understanding, that if we have any further
recesses as I think we will, that the continuation thereafter will be
under the same authority that we started off with, and that you will be
under oath throughout? Do you agree to that?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to save some time. All right. Mr. Griffin.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I would like to do at the outset, Mr. Ruby, is to go
back over some of the names that Mr. Hubert had talked with you about
before, and maybe I can ask some questions which might be able to
refresh your recollection. He indicated to me that you didn’t recognize
the name of Dominic Scorta. Now this would be somebody who lives or
works in Chicago. Do you have any recollection of any association with
anybody like that?
Mr. RUBY. Scorta, Scorta? Not at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert also indicated to me that you didn’t recognize
the name of a man named Kirk Bibul?
Mr. RUBY. That is right; I don’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any friends or acquaintances at Northwestern
University or in Evanston?
Mr. RUBY. Gee, I lived in Chicago all my life. I have got any number
of friends that went to school there but that name still doesn’t sound
familiar.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are your children of college age?
Mr. RUBY. No; the oldest one is only 15.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have anyone who has access to your house phone or
business phone?
Mr. RUBY. The only thing I can think of, I don’t know, is he a music
teacher?
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is what I am asking you. Do you know a music teacher?
Mr. RUBY. My wife was trying to contact a music teacher at Northwestern
to send my children to him for piano lessons.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that? I mean, how long ago was this?
Mr. RUBY. It has got to be 3 years ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is while you lived in Chicago?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is the only thing I can think of. Or if he has
anything to do with music teaching there, that is the only reason I can
think of.
Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we get this into the record. Could you give us the
names of the people who would have had access to the telephones at the
Cobo Cleaners, and who might have made long distance calls during the
years 1962 and 1963?
Mr. RUBY. Any one of our employees could have. It would be very
difficult. I could give you the list, but there is quite a few.
Mr. HUBERT. Would an employee make a long-distance call without your
consent?
Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Who would be authorized to make it without clearing with
you first, let’s put it that way?
Mr. RUBY. Anyone; anyone probably other than my wife or my partner that
I can think of. That is about all.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean by that that the only ones who would be authorized
without clearing it first would be your partner and your wife?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; for very long-distance calls. Now we call the suburbs as
I told you, Pontiac, Walled Lake, or Mount Clemens. Those are 25¢ or
30¢ calls. Because we cover that area and our trucks go there, our call
girl will be calling them any number of times during the month.
Mr. HUBERT. How many employees did you have during this period? I know
it would vary, but an average?
Mr. RUBY. Probably 50.
Mr. HUBERT. Now the phones are in the office?
Mr. RUBY. Not all of them. We have one in the back end that anybody
could use.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that a pay phone?
Mr. RUBY. We have a pay phone and a company phone.
Mr. HUBERT. What are the numbers of each? What is the pay phone number?
Mr. RUBY. The pay phone I don’t know. They took that out. I don’t know
what that is. I never use it.
Mr. HUBERT. It is still there?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What is the number of the regular?
Mr. RUBY. 860-3400.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is that located?
Mr. RUBY. We have one in the marking room as we call it at the back end
of the plant. We have four extensions in the front office where the
girls are. We have an extension phone in my office.
Mr. HUBERT. Are those all on the same line, the same number?
Mr. RUBY. 0400, 1, 2, and 3.
Mr. HUBERT. There are really three numbers?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; then we have another phone, my private line which is
863—I have got to look it up myself. I never use it. I don’t even have
my own number.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way. Who would have access to those
phones other than the public phone?
Mr. RUBY. I am not through yet. We have some other phones. We do dry
cleaning for J. L. Hudson Co. I don’t suppose you have heard of them.
We have two outside phones that we use in conjunction with their
business. Now you are saying 1962. When are you speaking of 1962, when?
Because we didn’t take over Hudson’s until December of 1962, so those
numbers wouldn’t mean anything.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What about 1963?
Mr. RUBY. 1963, yes; we had this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What are those numbers?
Mr. RUBY. 863-0566.
Mr. HUBERT. Who would have access to those office phones as it were?
Mr. RUBY. Well, most anybody in the office. We have about 10 office
employees, and every once in a while some of the shop employees come up
and use it.
Mr. HUBERT. To make long distance phone calls?
Mr. RUBY. No. As far as long distance, I don’t think so.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you checked the long distance records in any way?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t check them too carefully because we make so many.
My partner lives out of town, and I always talk to maybe Miriam in
the plant. We work together, we buy together sometimes. I talk to the
Benton Harbor plant.
Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t spot check it to see that——
Mr. RUBY. No; I really don’t spot check it that closely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if we could get from Mr. Ruby, maybe if you would
make a note of this, to provide us with a list of all of your office
employees for the year 1963?
Mr. RUBY. You don’t know if this is a music teacher, do you? Probably
my wife called.
Mr. HUBERT. We are speaking generally now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We are speaking generally. First of all, I am not
addressing myself to Mr. Bibul. Right now we are just addressing
ourselves to the general problem who else might have used your phone.
Do you think you could provide us——
Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure; that is no problem.
Mr. GRIFFIN. With a list of all of the office employees which you had?
Mr. RUBY. Sure; that is no problem.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You can limit that to the year 1963.
Mr. RUBY. When you say provide a list, what do you want?
Mr. HUBERT. You want from April of 1962, don’t you?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Give us the month of April of 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. During the lunch period if you have a chance you might be
able to write that down too.
Mr. RUBY. You are talking of all office employees April 1962. Well, we
had some changes, several of them, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And then you can skip the remaining months and give us all
of 1963.
Mr. RUBY. You just want their names. You don’t want any addresses or
phone numbers or anything, just their names?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if you can give us addresses also we would
appreciate it.
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; I can take it off the employee payroll card. I can
give you the whole thing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Gives us names, addresses, and telephone numbers.
Mr. RUBY. Do you want me to ask my wife specifically about that call to
North western University?
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; because that may answer that one. What is that name?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Kirk Bibul.
Mr. RUBY. And that was in April 1962?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No.
Mr. RUBY. That would be before that?
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; that was after.
Mr. RUBY. Before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That was the latter part of 1962 and the first part of
1963.
Mr. RUBY. Late 1962 and 1963.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And early 1963. I believe also you indicated to Mr. Hubert
that you didn’t recognize the name of the Ypsilanti Buffing Co. as
anybody that you had dealt with.
Mr. HUBERT. Or maybe you did identify that one.
Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think so. Now when was this about? Maybe this had
to do with polishing or plating that same basket that we use in our dry
cleaning operation. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Public Vending Corp?
Mr. RUBY. No; Public Vending, where are they located? Is that a long
distance call, you say?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is a long distance call. When did you have this
problem with the plating that required some work?
Mr. RUBY. Last year.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What part of last year would that have been?
Mr. RUBY. No, excuse me; yes, the end of last year, that is right, the
end of last year, and that is when I think I called Troy Plating in
Chicago, to see if they could do that, and I may have called. I used
the yellow pages. I tried to get information from anyone as to who
could do it, so I may have called Ypsilanti, and they may have said no
and I crossed it out of my mind immediately.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the General Scientific Corp. is not a corporation that
you recognize?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; oh, yes. We bought lenses from them for the camera.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Berger Products?
Mr. RUBY. That don’t register with me. What city? That isn’t in
Cleveland, is it, by chance, because I just called Berger Products I
think Monday, but that wouldn’t be on there. That is this Monday. See,
we buy different articles from different parts of the country, and it
is hard to remember each one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are these purchases in connection with your drycleaning
business or some other business?
Mr. RUBY. Which, Troy? That was for the drycleaning. The lens, that was
for my camera.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you asked him, Mr. Hubert, about what percentage of
his time is spent with——
Mr. HUBERT. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us some idea what percentage of your time is
spent with the camera company and what percentage with the drycleaning
business?
Mr. RUBY. The camera company is practically nil. In fact, it is out
of business now. Over a 2-year period I only did about $10,000 gross
sales, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Last year how much of your time was devoted to the camera
company?
Mr. RUBY. When you say time, actually I took care of it more or less
out of my home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any other businesses last year besides the
camera company and the drycleaning business?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I had the nameplate business. That all comes under Earl
Ruby Co., both of those.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of your time did the nameplate business take?
Mr. RUBY. Very little. I don’t think I did a thousand dollars in the
last 2 years on that, so you can imagine how much time that took up.
And then that is dead now. In fact, the orders were so small that
instead of manufacturing the plates myself, for which I have the tools
and dies, I had somebody else do it for me that makes a similar item.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of nameplates are they?
Mr. RUBY. A little plate 3 inches by 6 inches made out of metal. It is
very similar to the design of your license plate, but we would put the
children’s name on it, like John Jones, and they would fasten it to the
back of their bicycle or their wagon or what have you. This was a box
top deal item that we used, Armour’s Meats used it several years ago.
They send in a box top from Armour’s franks with 25 cents, and you get
the plate, things like that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you held the dies on it?
Mr. RUBY. I own them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You own the dies, but you were going to have somebody else
manufacture them?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, I did, because it didn’t pay for me to set up to make
100 plates, because it just wasn’t worth it, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did the manufacturing?
Mr. RUBY. Dixie.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this your brother-in-law’s company?
Mr. RUBY. Who?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dixie?
Mr. RUBY. Dixie, no; that is just some people I never even met, but I
knew that they made a very similar plate, exactly the same size but
slightly different in design, and that I could substitute this for
mine. Actually, his was a better plate. It was made out of aluminum,
which I did. And so that it wasn’t necessary for me to go through all
the bother and expense to set up my operation to make the plate.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the Dixie Seal and Stamp Co.?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Atlanta?
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now the Berger Products Co. is in Philadelphia.
Mr. RUBY. Oh, Berger Products. They made a plate, and the reason I
called them, I have got to go back. When I sold my company, Earl
Products, the fellow I sold it to couldn’t pay me all the money. So we
made a new deal. He gave me some money and some of the operation back.
That is how I got back the camera and the nameplate. Berger is also
in the nameplate manufacturing business, and I wanted to sell him the
nameplate business if I could. That is why I called him. Now I know. It
is Philadelphia. That must be the Berger Co.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now did Mr. Hubert ask you if you knew anybody at the
Mar-Din Co.?
Mr. RUBY. No; he didn’t ask me that. Yes; I know those people.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know them?
Mr. RUBY. They were one of our best accounts years ago when I first got
into manufacturing.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was in the Earl Products?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; the Earl Products Co.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things did they purchase from you?
Mr. RUBY. Well, they purchased aluminum salt and pepper shaker sets.
That was the main item. And then they also purchased some hammer and
screwdriver sets, because at that time I was manufacturing those, too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you deal with these people while your brother Jack was
connected with Earl Products?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Jack know these people?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What does the Mar-Din Co. do?
Mr. RUBY. They are distributors of general merchandise, I would say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do they do any manufacturing that you know of?
Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t thing so, not that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the nature of their distribution? Is it mail order
or direct sale?
Mr. RUBY. Well, it is both. I think some mail order and they have
salesmen, which would mean direct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember talking with Jack, your brother Jack,
about the Mar-Din Co. at anytime last year?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think when he was talking about—I am not sure now, but
I think that he brought up their name when he was talking to me about
going into the manufacture of the twistboard, and he thought they would
be a very good outlet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you recall what you suggested to him?
Mr. RUBY. No; I am not even sure of that. I can’t remember a
conversation that took place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember receiving any telephone calls from Jack in
the month of November before the episode down in Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; we talked about the twistboard.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many calls do you recall receiving from him?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, at least three or four, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And were they all in connection with the twistboard?
Mr. RUBY. As far as I know; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you to try to reflect on these calls and see
if we can’t discuss them one by one. If you can, try to think about the
first time he called you and the next time, and so forth, so that we
can ascertain how your dealings with him progressed?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I think the first conversation was probably to the
effect that he had a good item, and he was going to send me one, and he
told me something about it, it is a terrific item, and he wants to get
into the manufacture of it, if he could.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he send you one of them?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; he did. In fact he sent me, I think he sent me a half
dozen. No; the first time he only sent me two, and then when I was down
in Dallas, you know, for the trial and so forth, I brought back a half
dozen for my kids, and so on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you were interested then in the project?
Mr. RUBY. No; not for myself. He wanted me to see if I could locate
people to make the parts at the least possible cost. He wanted to get
into the manufacture in Dallas, and he mentioned to me, because I was
trying to discourage him, because first of all he don’t know too much
about manufacturing, and to set up for one item, which I didn’t think
was such a tremendous item, I thought was a little bit ridiculous. And
then he said that he would have the Goodwill organization assemble
it for him. I don’t know if you are familiar with their complete
operation, but they will assemble items for you at a very reasonable
rate.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This is Goodwill Industries?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And was that going to be done in Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. In Dallas. So then he sent me the sample, and somehow I think
this Triangle manufacturing came up. He may have mentioned it. I am not
sure because I don’t remember every word of the conversation going back
that far. I think I called Triangle, if that is their name. I am not
even sure of that. He called me and he said, he might have said, “call
them and see what you can do.” Anyhow, I contacted a couple of people
in Detroit that I thought might know something about the twistboard,
because he told me it was so tremendous in Dallas I figured it’s got
to be known here in Detroit, although I had never even seen it. So
I asked—I happened to call a fellow that is a salesman for toys and
novelties and things of that sort.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?
Mr. RUBY. I can’t even think. I know his first name is Henny, I can’t
even think of his last name, and he said it is a flop, it is a dead
item here. They tried it and it didn’t go over. So I think in one of
the conversations I no doubt told Jack that, and anyhow I got a sample
and I think it was of this part that we needed, the bearing part for
this twistboard. Maybe I had better describe it. It is a little board,
fiberboard about 12 inches square and it sets on a bearing like, and
the bearing has another piece of press wood under it, and if you stand
on it and you twist, you twist around. That is what the item was. And I
couldn’t see it, especially it was selling for $3. I couldn’t see it. I
just didn’t think anything of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it Jack was enthusiastic about it?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; he was very enthused. He was going to get started.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to dissuade him at all from his enthusiasm?
Mr. RUBY. I think so, I think so. I really don’t know. As far as I
know, I think I did. I told him it just doesn’t pay to get into it,
because the one that was being marketed, if I recall he told me was
selling for $3. So he said if he could sell his for $2. it would be
tremendous. But I figured out the cost to him about 80 cents and if you
sell the jobbers, you have got to give them 50 and 10 off. By the way,
I have gone all through this with him but I just want to make it clear.
So that means he is going to get 90 cents. In addition they want 2
percent, so you get 88 cents, approximately, and it costs you 80 cents,
so you can’t be in business on 8 cents gross profit on an item that you
are selling for 88 cents. It is just impossible.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And in which telephone conversation did you have this
discussion?
Mr. RUBY. In one of them, not the first one, because I didn’t have all
the information then. But after I got all the information, I called him
or he called me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Jack calling you after the telephone call,
a few days after the telephone call that was made in connection with
Triangle? Do you remember that telephone call?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I think so, and that is when I told him I think they
wanted 45 cents, and that is when I broke down the price structure,
that it just didn’t seem feasible to consider manufacturing it if you
had to sell it at $2 and I probably told him at that time, I checked
into it and it was a flop in Detroit, so it was my opinion it wasn’t
good.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack call you in November about anything other than
the twistboard?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t think so. I think the only thing we discussed other
than—maybe how is the family, you know, how are your kids, which is the
general conversation when two brothers talk.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever call you in connection with Eva’s illness?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes; he did mention that, that she was going to have an
operation, she was going to have an operation, she had an operation,
and he said, “I think you should call her or write her” or something. I
don’t know, I may have even called her in the hospital, I really don’t
remember, but he said she was feeling very bad, and for me to either
write her, send her a card or call her, and I don’t know what I did. I
did something but I don’t remember exactly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While Jack was living in Dallas, had you talked with him
about other business ventures that he had, outside of his clubs?
Mr. RUBY. Well, a few years ago I talked to him about, he had a vitamin
called Miniron, or something like that. In fact, I tried to discourage
him about that, but I couldn’t, and in fact I think if I remember
correctly, I sent him some money to try it, but it just didn’t go.
It was a vitamin, a liquid vitamin of some kind that he thought was
terrific. He was always taking diet pills and stuff like that. He was
whatever the name for that is. Anyhow, he went for all kinds of diet
remedies that came on the market. But it never seemed to help him much
because he liked to eat.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of when he was selling these
diet pills or these vitamin pills?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, it is a few years back. It had to be—it was a liquid. I
don’t think it was a pill. It was a bottle of some kind. In fact, he
sent me some. It is several years back, I mean 4, 5 or 6 or 7. I don’t
remember exactly. It was several years ago I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you recall your activities of the weekend of November
22, 23, and 24?
Mr. RUBY. The 22d, Friday, right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. I was at work drycleaning when we heard the news on the radio.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That the President had been shot?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; first shot. Then we were waiting for additional news,
and then finally it came through that he was dead.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at the drycleaning plant that day?
Mr. RUBY. Gee, I would say probably until 6 o’clock. That is my usual
hour.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?
Mr. RUBY. Friday I always go home to dinner Friday night because it is
traditional in our family. Jewish people, we have a big meal on Friday
nights, so very, very seldom would I miss a Friday night dinner. I am
quite sure I went home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any specific recollection of what you did
Friday night?
Mr. RUBY. No; I was deeply upset, like most everybody else, I think,
and I went home I know at 6 o’clock.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a specific recollection of going home and
being at home on Friday night?
Mr. RUBY. No; not specific, but I can’t see what else I would have done
but go home to eat.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did in the evening after you ate,
Friday evening?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your practice to go to religious services on Friday?
Mr. RUBY. You wouldn’t go on Friday night, would you? No; I don’t go on
Friday night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you of the Jewish faith?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you have a particular temple or synagogue?
Mr. RUBY. More or less, yes, but I am not what you call Orthodox. The
Orthodox, you know, just like other religions, they go every chance
they get more or less. But I am not of the Orthodox.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But the temple or synagogue that you belong to, when does
it regularly hold services?
Mr. RUBY. It probably holds them—I don’t know. I know they have them
Saturday. Saturday they always have services. I don’t think they have
services there Friday night. They don’t have services on Friday night
as far as I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall your own religious practices when you were
living in Chicago with Jack? Did your practices and feelings at that
time differ from his?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I would say—can you make that a little more clear?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Looking back to the time when you and Jack saw each other
regularly when you were in Chicago, when Jack was in Chicago, were
your religious practices the same as they are now? Were you any more
religious then? Did you observe the holidays more closely?
Mr. RUBY. You want to compare Jack with myself?
Mr. GRIFFIN. First of all, let me ask you about your own practice.
Mr. RUBY. Well, you must understand, first, that it is very unusual for
a Jewish boy not to be bar mitzvah.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not asking about particular ceremonies, but I am
asking you about the regular habits of weekly attendance and so forth.
Did they differ in the period before 1948 from the way they are now?
Mr. RUBY. Mine?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. Well, I would say I go more often since I got married, of
course, because that is the Jewish tradition. When you get married,
you have children, my kids go to Hebrew school, they went to parochial
school, in fact my son graduated from the Hebrew school in Chicago, and
so I would say I am more religious since we have children.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you were single in Chicago, how did your
religious practices differ from Jack’s?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I would say he was a little more religious than I was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he attend the synagogue or temple more often than you
did?
Mr. RUBY. I would say more often than I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he go regularly?
Mr. RUBY. I wouldn’t say regularly, but he did go more often than I
did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many times a year would he go other than on high
holidays?
Mr. RUBY. This goes back so many years. You know he has been away more
or less from me for 17 years now, so it is pretty hard to remember. And
you know he is not the only one in the family. We still have six more
children. I can’t even remember all their birthdays, remembering who
went where on holidays.
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you don’t have a specific recollection, I don’t want to
ask you the question, then. Let’s go back to the 22d, 23d, and the 24th.
Do you recall what you did on Saturday, the 23d?
Mr. RUBY. I think I went to work, the usual time, probably 7:30, and
probably worked until 6 o’clock. Saturday is a busy day for us, and
probably went home so far as I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You used the word “probably.” Are you indicating that
you don’t really have any specific recollection of what you did that
Saturday?
Mr. RUBY. I would say I probably went home, but I am not sure. I would
have to check with my wife to make sure. I don’t think we went out,
because we were in deep mourning.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were, or you were not?
Mr. RUBY. I said we were.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You were in deep mourning?
Mr. RUBY. So I don’t think we would have gone any place.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean when you said you were in deep mourning?
Mr. RUBY. Well, we cried a lot in our family when this happened, I mean
actual tears.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us when this happened? Can you describe to us
where and when and who was present? What was happening around you?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I don’t know exactly what our—but I know after this
happened, probably on Friday night, my wife was definitely in tears at
that time, and I was, too. We both greatly admired him. In fact, my
wife on many occasions, even before the incident, she just loved him.
There was nobody greater than President Kennedy. She made a statement
many times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you both registered Democrats?
Mr. RUBY. I was a Democrat all my life. In fact, I worked for the
Democratic headquarters in Chicago many years ago. All our family has
been Democrats all our lives, as far as I can remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what you did Sunday morning?
Mr. RUBY. On the 26th? Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The 24th.
Mr. RUBY. The 24th. We needed some electrical work done at the plant,
and the only time to do it without interfering with production was
to have it done on Sunday morning. So I had the electrician come in
on Sunday, and I met him there, I think, about 10 o’clock probably,
Sunday morning, at the plant to do this work, and I was there until—I
just wanted to get them started, and I had one of my other employees
there to watch things, you know, because we had an outside contractor,
electrical contractor here to do the work, and there is a lot of
clothing there and we wanted to be careful if they worked on the
ceiling that they didn’t drop dirt on the clothing and so forth.
So I left. I was there maybe 2 hours, I don’t remember, anyhow I
wasn’t in the car but 5 minutes or so driving one of the other
employees—another employee who stopped in home—I was en route to drive
him home. We had the radio tuned in. That is when I heard—no, before
I left this Mike Nemzin, who is my best friend, and his brother is my
partner, he was in the hospital with an operation——
Mr. GRIFFIN. The brother or Mike Nemzin?
Mr. RUBY. Mike Nemzin. He had some kind of surgery on his ribs or
something, a very serious one, though, and so I thought I would call
him to see how he was.
So I called him Sunday morning, it must have been about 12 o’clock,
from the plant, I was at the plant, mind you, and as I am talking to
him, he is in his bed in the hospital, he is watching television or
radio and he says to me, “I can’t talk to you. Somebody just shot
Oswald,” he says.
“I’ll talk to you some other time.” You know, because we were all
excited, especially he was. So I hung up. And we didn’t have the radio
on in the plant, but we left a few minutes thereafter. And in the car,
as I said, about 5 minutes later, as I am in the car driving, just
drove probably a mile from the plant, which wouldn’t take more than 5
minutes, it comes through on the radio that Oswald has been shot and
the fellow that did the shooting is Jack Ruby, owner of the Carousel
Night Club in Dallas, and I immediately knew it was my brother because
that was the name of the club he owned.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you say you were riding with someone at the time?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was his name?
Mr. RUBY. Jim Stewart.
Mr. HUBERT. Does he still work for you?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Where is he located now; do you know?
Mr. RUBY. Right now he is in the hospital, Receiving Hospital in
Detroit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do when you heard that?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I was very upset, of course, and he said—I was
driving—he said, “You had better pull over to the curb. You just turned
white as a ghost.”
So I pulled over for a second or for a few minutes to recuperate my
senses, so to speak. And then I said, “I had better take you home,”
which I did. Then I went home. I drove home, and I called my sister in
Chicago. I don’t even know which one I called. There is two of them.
And they knew about it, of course, by that time, too. This was a half
hour later and they probably heard it on the air. And they were all
upset, of course. And I said, “Well, I had better come to Chicago.” So
I called the airport and I flew to Chicago Sunday.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at the cleaning plant after you
finished talking with Mike Nemzin?
Mr. RUBY. Just a couple of minutes, just a few minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And what other people were in the plant at that time?
Mr. RUBY. When I talked to Mike Nemzin?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. The electrician, I think, and his helper, he had a helper,
you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the name of the electrician?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us his name?
Mr. RUBY. The trade name, I think, is Marco Electrical Contractors, and
his first name is Marty. That is with a “c”. It is a little bit of an
odd name, but I have it available there if it is necessary.
Mr. GRIFFIN. His last name starts with a “c”?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think that is where he got this Marco. And then, of
course, as I told you I flew to Chicago, and my brother met me at the
airport, if I am not mistaken, Hyman, and this was already before I
could get reservations and get the plane and pack some clothes and all.
It was late in the afternoon, and I think I arrived there, if I am not
mistaken, probably 6 o’clock in Chicago, and it takes about an hour to
get there.
Anyhow, no sooner I got in the house, you know, of course, the
reporters were calling and it was a real—we tried not to talk to
everyone, to anyone, if I recall.
When I got there, then my sister said that there were some men at the
door and they said they were FBI men or special agents, and she thought
they were reporters so she wouldn’t let them in, and she was hysterical
now, to put it straight. And so then we got a call. We did answer the
phone, of course, and we got a call from an agent, I can’t remember
his name, but he said that they want to get in and talk to us and we
wouldn’t let anybody in. You know, we just wouldn’t let anybody in. So
he says, “Here is a number and call this number and my name is”—one of
them was White, and I can’t think of the other one, one of the agents
in Chicago. “Call this number and they will verify this that we are
special agents.” So I said OK. So I went out to a pay station and
called, and sure enough they said yes, they are agents, and so I walked
back into the house the back way, and I saw them standing in the front,
by the way. You know, there were about three or four of them. And I
told my sister we had better let them in, they are special agents,
which we did. There were four, I think. Four agents came in at one time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did they interview you and your brother and your
sister?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; all of us.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you being interviewed simultaneously by the Bureau?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; in different parts of the house.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So that while you were being interviewed, one or more of
your brothers and sisters were also being interviewed.
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; they talked to one sister, I think one agent talked
to her in the kitchen or dining room or another part of the house, and
one or two were with us.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time the Secret Service agents had talked to
you, had you had a chance to talk with any of your family in Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. Had I?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me, at the time that the FBI talked to you, did you
have an opportunity to talk with any of your family in Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t think I even had time. I don’t think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recall having talked to them?
Mr. RUBY. No; but I don’t think so at all. There was just not enough
time. I called Chicago, if I recall, that is all I called. I don’t
think I called Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Hyman or your sisters in Chicago had a chance to talk
with Eva or Sam?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you arrived in Chicago and talked with Sam——
Mr. RUBY. With Hy, you mean.
Mr. GRIFFIN. With Hy, yes—did you discuss any contacts that Hyman had
had with Jack over the weekend?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain in Chicago on the 24th?
Mr. RUBY. I just remained overnight and went back to Detroit, because
my wife called me late at night, I don’t know what time it was, very
late anyhow, and she said, “You had better come home. The reporters are
just driving me crazy.” She was terribly upset. So the next morning I
flew back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were in Chicago, did you make any plans with
respect to obtaining an attorney for your brother?
Mr. RUBY. While I was there for that little while?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. No; but I think if I recall correctly Tom Howard was already
in the picture. I heard his name. I didn’t talk to him, but as far as
I know I heard his name on the air, that he was representing Jack, or
something to that effect. At least I think so. But I don’t know if that
was before I left for Detroit or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the nature of your meeting with your brothers and
sisters in Chicago?
Mr. RUBY. Well, they were upset and they suggested I come there. So I
came there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any discussion as to what you could do for
Jack?
Mr. RUBY. We probably did, but there was nothing definite made, no
definite arrangements. I know that I called, I think, Tom Howard. He
was the first attorney, if you remember, to represent Jack, Monday
morning after I arrived back home, because when I arrived there we had
police at the house already, and the chief of police and my wife came
down to meet me at the plane, and en route back my wife was telling me
how the newspaper reporters were bothering her, they wouldn’t let her
sleep. They were there until 2 o’clock in the morning and whatnot, you
know. So I didn’t know what to do. So I asked the chief of police—his
name is Sackett—a very nice man—what would he suggest. They all wanted
information, a press conference or what. He said, “If I were you,
the only way you are going to get rid of them is give them a press
conference.” But I didn’t know if that was the correct thing to do, so
I am quite sure I called Tom Howard and told him who I was and told him
that all these news people wanted a press conference and what should I
do. And I told him what the sheriff, the police chief, had suggested,
and he says, “Well, there is no harm. You might as well do it and get
it over with.”
So we called a press conference, I think it was, for 2 o’clock in the
afternoon, something like that, and our rabbi came over, Rabbi Adler,
and then I think right after that, I think some special agents called
and came in or came over, and I think there were some there in the
evening. Again, I think they came. And that ended that day. That was
Monday. And then we started talking about attorneys and what to do and
who to use.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say, “we started talking about it.” Who was this?
Mr. RUBY. I talked to the family, and I talked to—we talked back and
forth so many times. I am talking about Chicago, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. And I think they were in touch with Dallas. I think Eva and
Sam, they were talking back and forth, more or less continually.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have anything to do with getting Mr. Tonahill into
the case?
Mr. RUBY. Indirectly; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you who you directly got into the case, if
anybody?
Mr. RUBY. Belli.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us how Mr. Belli came to get into the case?
Mr. RUBY. Jack called. They let him use the phone down there. He talked
to me or someone. Anyhow, we were talking about a lawyer then. We
were all excited about getting the right lawyer. And he mentioned—I
am trying to get it straight in my mind here. Oh, yes; he mentioned
somebody wanted some information on his life or something, a life story
or something, something to that effect, and he said to contact Mike
Shore in California, in Los Angeles, who is a friend of ours, and he
was a pretty well known publicity man.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Mike Shore before you called?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to know Mike Shore?
Mr. RUBY. Well, actually, I know him since high school days in Chicago.
He originally lived in Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a classmate of yours in high school?
Mr. RUBY. No; but he went to the same school, if I remember, and I
really didn’t get acquainted with him until after we got out of school.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your acquaintance with Mike Shore after you got
out of school?
Mr. RUBY. Just on a general hello and how are you basis, nothing real
close.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But in what connection would you see him?
Mr. RUBY. Then he became——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you understand my question? In what connection would
you see him after you got out of school?
Mr. RUBY. I used to be a lifeguard at a swimming pool close to where
he lived and he used to come over there once in a great while, just a
few blocks from his house. And he used to—he was a Good Humor salesman,
and we would go out and see him where he parked his truck or something
once in a great while. But that was because he was more friendly with
other people than he was with me. In other words, I wasn’t one of his
buddies. I would go along just for the ride.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you do any business with him?
Mr. RUBY. I am coming to that. Then he became—he opened up the Mike
Shore Advertising and he is the one that was behind Earl Muntz, you
know, and the cars and the television. That is Michael Shore. And I
did some business with him along in manufacturing. He got into the
manufacturing of an item, a food seasoner. It was a large aluminum
needle and you filled it with some different meat flavors and you
injected it in the meat. Somebody talked him into it. He was doing
very well, and he invested in it. Anyhow, it wasn’t made correctly
so they couldn’t sell it, so he asked me since at that time I was in
manufacturing, if I could correct the defect so they could at least
sell them and market them, which I did. They shipped all these to me, I
don’t know how many thousand, 5,000 or 10,000, and we reworked them and
fixed them and sold them for him. Then not too long after that Muntz
practically went bankrupt, so he closed the Chicago office and moved
back to California. So, anyhow, I called Mike.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you another question. From what you have said,
I take it that Mike Shore first had contacted your brother Jack or
somebody in Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. No, no, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack told you to call Mike Shore?
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had Shore contacted Jack or what gave Jack the idea
of suggesting that you call Shore?
Mr. RUBY. Well, Jack knew that I knew Mike Shore, and he was, you
know—he had been in advertising, was the only one we knew that could
give us any advice as to what to do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Jack had someone approach him in connection with a
life story or something like that?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; he said several people were trying to contact him
through Howard and wanted a life story.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The first you heard about this, though, was when Jack
called you and asked you to contact Mike Shore?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; as far as I know. Now, wait—I don’t know if he talked to
me or he talked to one of the members of the family, because we had so
many telephone calls from those first few days I can’t recall all of
them. But, anyhow, the word came to me to call Mike Shore and ask his
advice.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall how long after Oswald was shot that
this call of yours took place?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, just a day or two later, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And I take it you did call Mike Shore?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you call him in California?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I called him in California.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And about how long did your conversation with Shore last?
Mr. RUBY. Several minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Ten or fifteen minutes?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I really don’t know. Anyhow, I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell us what that conversation was.
Mr. RUBY. Well, I mentioned that Jack had said that people were
interested in a story on Jack and Jack had said to contact him, ask
his advice. And so he says, “Gee, that is a coincidence,” he says,
“because I’ve got somebody sitting right here in my office that would
be the perfect man to do a story on Jack if one is going to be done.”
And he says, “His name is Billy Woodfield.” His real name is William
Woodfield. So he says, “I think you ought to come out here,” the
conversation got to that, “so we can talk it over.”
So I flew out there a day or two later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that all there was to the conversation at that time?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; lawyers weren’t mentioned yet as far as I remember. I
don’t think we mentioned the lawyer in the first conversation.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you discussed with your family or with Tom Howard
before you called Mike Shore——
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What had been your discussion about selling the life story
with your family and with Tom Howard?
Mr. RUBY. Well, the question came up that we would need money for a
good lawyer, and this was one of the solutions to raising money.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you called Mike Shore, are you saying that you had
discussed getting a lawyer other than Tom Howard, or when you use the
term good lawyer are you talking about paying Howard?
Mr. RUBY. No: we were talking about a lawyer other than Howard now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Who had suggested that you should get a lawyer other than
Howard or how did that idea arise?
Mr. RUBY. That was, I think, between our family, the family itself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you discuss this with Howard before you called
Mike Shore?
Mr. RUBY. Wait, you are ahead of me. The first conversation I didn’t
mention a lawyer to Mike Shore yet.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I realize that.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But I am still asking you, you had indicated to me that
the reason that you were calling Shore and thinking about a life story
was that you were going to need money for another lawyer. The life
story, as I understand it, is tied in with the idea of getting the
money for a lawyer, or was there another reason for selling the life
story?
Mr. RUBY. No; I think I talked to Tom Howard because we never heard
of him, of course. In the meantime, I think in conversations back and
forth, we talked with another lawyer there, somebody talked to him from
the family or maybe it was relayed through my sister Eva down there—and
I have a brother Sam in Dallas—do we need another lawyer. And then we
learned that they were already trying to get a lawyer.
Now, you must understand, we have to go back to Tom Howard. Tom Howard
is a bondsman in addition to being a lawyer. That is what he is noted
for there. So then I think I talked to this other lawyer, Stanley
Kaufman. He was my brother’s civil lawyer down there. And I asked him
if he knows a good criminal lawyer, and he says, no, he can’t recommend
anyone.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you, Mr. Ruby.
Mr. RUBY. Excuse me. I can’t remember the exact sequence of all these
conversations, because they were going back and forth all day and night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe we can reconstruct it by asking you questions. From
what you have said, I take it that by the time you called or somebody
talked to Stanley Kaufman, the idea had been implanted that you would
need a lawyer other than Tom Howard.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, who had planted the idea? How did that idea develop
that you would need a lawyer other than Tom Howard?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t remember exactly, but it could have been even my
own thoughts, because a day or two after the shooting and the papers
started to print stories, and stories about Tom Howard, and I realized
who he was, and he was suspended at one time, I immediately thought
this was not a good lawyer to have for my brother.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what was Jack’s original attitude, if you know, about
Tom Howard?
Mr. RUBY. He wasn’t too crazy about Tom Howard, as far as I could see,
from what he told me, because he said Tom Howard contradicted himself a
few times to him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But did Jack, to your knowledge, develop the idea on
his own that he should get somebody other than Howard, or was this
suggestion raised to Jack?
Mr. RUBY. That I don’t know. You are asking me what his thoughts were.
I don’t know. I can’t answer that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn’t know if you had contact with him or not. Now, to
your knowledge, were any other Dallas lawyers contacted besides Tom
Howard before the final team of Belli, Tonahill, and Burleson?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; Belli was the main one, you know. He was the first
one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but before Belli was brought in, were any other
Dallas lawyers, or Texas lawyers——
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; they talked, Howard—Howard and I discussed this,
and he said he needs help, he wouldn’t mind another good lawyer. So we
mentioned several names. He talked to Percy Foreman, and Percy Foreman,
he told me Percy Foreman wants $25,000 as a retainer before he will
even step into the case. So he says, “I know you don’t have that kind
of money so that eliminates him.”
However, later, upon talking to Foreman, he denies that. He said he
only asked for $2,500.
Anyhow, they contacted Stanley Kaufman. Stanley Kaufman contacted Fred
Brunner. He is a Dallas criminal lawyer, very good. And the story I got
is he says, “Okay, I’ll handle the case. I will be right down to take
over.”
He never showed up. We found out why. He is Henry Wade’s best friend,
and so it just wouldn’t work out. He just couldn’t take it. Although he
never called, we understood that that is what happened, because they
down there found out that he was Henry Wade’s best friend, and so he
probably for one reason or another, he couldn’t take the case.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any personal knowledge, however, that the
friendship with Howard was the reason that Brunner didn’t take the case?
Mr. HUBERT. With Wade.
Mr. GRIFFIN. With Wade. You don’t know this?
Mr. RUBY. No; I talked to Brunner myself when I was down there later
on. Brunner said something to the effect—I don’t remember the exact
words. I ran into him in the county jail. I don’t remember what he said.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything to you about why he didn’t get into
the case?
Mr. RUBY. I am just trying to, if I can find the words or something
close to what he said. We just met in the hallway, and he said—I can’t
recall that conversation at all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Brunner mention——
Mr. RUBY. But I had a later conversation which I remember very
clearly,——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that.
Mr. RUBY. This was after Jack received the sentence, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. Then Brunner told me that he now wants to help Jack. He
feels that this would never have happened if he had handled the case
originally, the verdict, you know, the death verdict, and that I should
talk to the family and think over about him taking over the defense.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention anything about Henry Wade at that
conversation?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; he said, “Even though I am very close,” words to the
effect that “even though I am very close with Wade, don’t let that
worry you,” or something to that effect. But I forget that first
conversation, and I just don’t want to give you words——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he mentioned Wade in the first conversation that you
recall?
Mr. RUBY. I am not sure and I don’t want to just—no, we contacted Percy
Foreman. You want to know who else?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. I didn’t know. This is only that I learned from Howard. He
said he contacted Percy Foreman. He contacted Fred Erisman, a retired
judge. There is another one, another very good criminal lawyer, but I
can’t even think of his last name to look it up. Is it important? I’ve
got it here, but I just can’t remember the name.
Oh, yes; here is another one they talked to, I understand—Jim Martin.
In fact, he was in the case more or less with Howard. Oh, that is
Charlie Tessmer, the other lawyer they contacted. And he turned it
down. Why, he never told us, but he turned it down. In the meantime,
I had talked to Charlie Bellows from Chicago who is now acting as
consultant.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to contact Mr. Bellows?
Mr. RUBY. Well, one of my close friends in Chicago worked in his
office, another lawyer, Rheingold, Milton Rheingold.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Incidentally, let me ask you here, did you know a lawyer
in Chicago by the name of Weiner?
Mr. RUBY. A lawyer? I don’t think so, not a lawyer. I know a doctor,
not a lawyer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead now with your contact with Bellows.
Mr. RUBY. So we talked to Bellows. I talked to him, rather. And he said
he was going to be rather busy, and he wasn’t sure he could take the
case. As a matter of fact, that is who I wanted originally, because we
knew him. His office represented me before Rheingold, was in his office
with him, was my civil lawyer in Chicago, more or less, so you know at
least we had a knowledge of who we were going to hire. And, in addition
to that, he is a great criminal lawyer. He is head of the American
Defense Lawyers, and all that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And had you contacted Bellows before your telephone call
to Mike Shore?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I am quite sure I did, and I asked him to give me an
idea of the fee because, you know, expenses. Well, he said his fee
would run anywhere from $10,000 to $15,000, because he figured it would
be a 2- or 3-month trial, plus expenses.
So I, of course, asked him what his expenses might be, and he says it
shouldn’t be more than, if I recall, $100 or $200 a week for his own
expenses, he said, because he doesn’t live highly and knowing me he is
going to keep it down as low as possible.
Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about Bellows now?
Mr. RUBY. Bellows.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Ruby, had you discussed a fee with Tom Howard?
Mr. RUBY. I did, but I don’t know when.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the fee that was finally arrived at with Tom
Howard? What was his fee to be?
Mr. RUBY. His fee was originally, if he would stay in all the way, he
told me from $10,000 to $15,000.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many lawyers did Howard suggest would be needed
besides himself?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I mentioned the names, you know, like Bellows. In fact,
he talked to Bellows, and we were in the process of probably working
something out with Bellows, but he was too busy, and asked—then the
question came up as to whether Bellows would be a risk in Dallas, since
he is Jewish. And I talked to about a half dozen other lawyers, and I
even talked to the best criminal lawyer in Detroit, Joe Louisell. I had
a meeting with him. I asked his advice. He says, “Don’t bring a Jewish
lawyer down there.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Howard’s view?
Mr. RUBY. Howard agreed with that. So that more or less took Bellows
out of the picture. Now, in the meantime, I am back, going to
California. So I go to California. They meet me at the airport. Is
everything pretty well in sequence up until now?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right, we will clarify. We will ask you some
questions about it.
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; first the conversation, to get back to Tom Howard,
the first one or two conversations, as I said, I talked to him Monday
morning. Then I think I talked to him Monday night. I don’t remember,
I talked to him any number of times. And in our discussions we talked
money, costs. He mentioned “It is going to take a couple of months. You
have got to figure anywhere total expenses close to $50,000.”
I never knew all these things existed that you have to hire a special
investigator, and he wants $10,000. And you have got to have an appeals
lawyer like Burleson. That is how he came in. You have got to pay him.
Anyhow, he broke it down, roughly, over the phone he says it may run
$50,000. So that is why I started asking any lawyer I talked to, like
Bellows, “How much are you going to charge? I have got to know all
these things. Give me an idea what we have to raise.”
Then I had all of this information more or less in the back of my mind,
how much have we got to raise to get Jack a decent defense counsel.
Then I go out to California. They meet me at the airport, Mike Shore
and Woodfield. The first thing they say, “Have you got a lawyer yet?” I
says, “No.”
I am still talking to Bellows. He is not out yet, you see. He is not
out of the picture. Howard is still supposedly trying to contact
somebody else that is good. I haven’t been to Dallas yet. In the
meantime, as I said, he had contacted Foreman and Charlie Tessmer and
Fred Erisman. They were out. Fred Brunner, he didn’t want to get in at
the beginning. Those were considered some of the top criminal lawyers
in the State of Texas.
So, anyhow, I meet him, they meet me at the plane in Los Angeles, get
in the car. The first thing they ask is “Have you got a lawyer?” And I
tell them what is going on. I am not sure yet. So they start talking
to me about Belli, Melvin Belli. I had never heard of him. And they
couldn’t understand it. But I never had. And I told them that, that I
had never heard of him, and so they start telling me how great he was,
you know, and all that stuff.
And they said, “By coincidence he is in town. He is in L.A.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you arrived did Shore and Woodfield—how
long before you arrived did they know you were coming? In other words,
how many days elapsed between your conversation with Shore and your
airplane trip out there?
Mr. RUBY. Gee, only a day or so, I think.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, had Shore mentioned Belli to you on the telephone in
that first conversation?
Mr. RUBY. I think so, but I am not sure—I think so, but I am not sure,
because I think in our conversation in the car that we had makes me
think they mentioned it before now, because the conversation went like
this: I must have mentioned before I haven’t heard of Belli. He says,
“I know I haven’t mentioned Belli and I don’t want to push him too
much,” but then they started to tell me how good he is, so we must have
talked about him on the phone. My remark was, “But Mike, I never heard
of him.”
So, anyhow, they said, the conversation got around that he is in town,
and, “Would you care to see him?”
I says, “Well, I’ve got nothing to lose.”
In the meantime, they are telling me how great he is, of course.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you under the impression that they had asked Belli to
come to Los Angeles?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it was a coincidence? Is there anything
factual that happened that might suggest to you that——
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think that they probably did. I shouldn’t say did,
probably could have. I don’t want to make the statement that they did,
because Woodfield later told me that Belli promised him that he would
write Belli’s version of the trial or whatever you call it, for making
the contact to represent my brother, words to that effect.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Woodfield said this?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And you heard Woodfield say it or this is something that
somebody else told you Woodfield said?
Mr. RUBY. No; I heard Woodfield say that.
Mr. HUBERT. Woodfield told that to you?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he tell you that?
Mr. RUBY. That was later on when he learned—this was weeks later when
he learned he wasn’t going to do the story. Somebody else—Belli brought
in a fellow by the name of Al Moscow to do the story.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The story of your brother?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The story of Belli?
Mr. RUBY. Belli—Belli’s book on the trial.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, was this before——
Mr. RUBY. Wait, we have got to clarify something else. We are getting
ahead of ourselves.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me just pinpoint time here. Was your conversation with
Woodfield about Woodfield not being able to write the Belli story, did
that conversation occur before, during, or after the trial of your
brother?
Mr. RUBY. During, I would say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicate by your tone of voice and your words that you
are not certain as to when this took place. Could you try to think of
what the surrounding circumstances were of this conversation and other
things to pinpoint the time?
Mr. RUBY. It wasn’t after, I know. Whether or not it was before, it
could have been just before, because I don’t remember when Al Moscow
came down the first time.
Oh, well, we can know exactly. It was published all over the country
that Belli had signed a contract to do a story on Jack Ruby and the
trial and all that stuff, and it was all over the country, with Al
Moscow to do the writing. So we can pinpoint that. I don’t remember the
date.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I took you off the track. Get back on your track.
Mr. RUBY. Where was I?
Mr. GRIFFIN. You said that we were skipping ahead, I think.
Mr. HUBERT. I think the last thing you were talking about before we
diverted into these other aspects was that you said you had nothing to
lose.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is right, so that evening we went to see Belli.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see Belli?
Mr. RUBY. In a home—a used home he had recently purchased in L.A.
Mr. HUBERT. Was an appointment made by them to see him?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; oh, yes. I think it was 7 o’clock, if I am not mistaken,
that evening.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did they call Belli? Where was Belli when they
called him to make the appointment.
Mr. RUBY. In L.A. from what they told me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but do you know whether he was at his house or in an
office or in a hotel or in a cocktail lounge or where he might have
been?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall. I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you present when they called to make the appointment?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t remember that, either.
Mr. HUBERT. So we are at the point that you do go to see Belli.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think this is a good breaking point for lunch.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe.
(Whereupon, at 1:10 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)
TESTIMONY OF EARL RUBY RESUMED
The proceeding reconvened at 2:30 p.m.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me state for the record that as we resume this
deposition that I presume you understand that the oath you took this
morning with Mr. Hubert and all the formalities which you went through
still pertain to this hearing.
You are still under oath and we will continue in the same fashion that
we did before.
If there are any questions about it why you are free to say anything.
We were talking, it seems to me, that we got you to the point where you
had just met Mr. Belli.
Mr. RUBY. Belli, that is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I wanted to confine your attention from here on in
to certain narrow aspects of your dealings in Los Angeles, and that is
your efforts to find financing for Jack’s trial and what the actual
financing of the trial is.
Can you tell us, first of all, whether prior to seeing Belli, that day
that you were in Los Angeles, you talked to Mr. Shore and Mr. Woodfield
at all about the financing of the trial?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I told them we had to raise money, and I told them
Howard gave me a figure of anywhere from $25,000 to $50,000, and I
asked them about how much they thought they could obtain from a story,
and they said they couldn’t promise 50 but 30, 35, I think that was the
figure that Woodfield used.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that be the gross figure or would that be what your
brother would have ultimately had available from the entire sum for his
defense?
Mr. RUBY. That was the figure, the net figure my brother would have
left over after they took their commissions and percentage, and the
agent’s fee and all of that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people were to share in the proceeds from the
sale, beside Jack?
Mr. RUBY. Woodfield, William Woodfield. Larry Shiller, the agent, and
then they in turn said they would pay commissions to sales people.
I don’t know who those were, of course.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this first day in Los Angeles——
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to meeting Belli and your talk with them, did you
discuss how long the article or biography would be and where it would
be published and other details such as that?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t think so; not the first day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the meeting at Mr. Belli’s house, did you discuss
the biography of your brother?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What discussion took place there?
Mr. RUBY. Just the general discussion that Woodfield would do the
writing of it. That is about all. And a figure did come up of how much
could be raised through the story, through the selling of the story.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the speculation at that time?
Mr. RUBY. That is what I said, you know, the same figure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did your meeting at Mr. Belli’s home last?
Mr. RUBY. I would say at least an hour.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of the time at Mr. Belli’s house was spent
discussing the sale of the biography or the life story?
Mr. RUBY. Probably 10 minutes altogether.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you finished——
Mr. RUBY. Excuse me, would you want to know who else was present there?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I would.
Mr. RUBY. Sam Brody, one of his associates in L.A., another attorney,
who was in the case for a while but if you will recall he stepped out,
and Woodfield’s wife, yes, Woodfield’s wife, I don’t remember her name——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Mike Shore there?
Mr. RUBY. No: I don’t think so. No; I am quite sure he wasn’t.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When that meeting ended there, had there been an
agreement——
Mr. RUBY. Excuse me a minute.
I am trying to think if Mike Shore was there. I don’t place him there.
I am not sure he was there. I can’t say yes or no to that question.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He might have been there but you are not sure, is that
your answer, or is your original answer that he wasn’t there still your
best impression.
Mr. RUBY. If my recollection is correct, I think he just met Belli and
then left. He had an appointment or something but I am not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the conclusion of your talk at that point as to
whether Belli would represent Jack.
Mr. RUBY. It wasn’t definite yet. We talked about lawyers and he
mentioned what he thinks we ought to do, and psychiatrists we might
need—and different things that—he mentioned he would bring in Tonahill.
He worked with Tonahill before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the first time Tonahill’s name was mentioned?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you remain in Los Angeles that night?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think I was there that night.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there the next day?
Mr. RUBY. I think I left the next—about noon of the next day if I am
not mistaken.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you left Los Angeles what arrangements had been made
with respect to the autobiography or the life story of Jack?
Mr. RUBY. Nothing really definite.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Woodfield ultimately write the story that you are
talking about?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And——
Mr. RUBY. He came down to Dallas later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that published, that story? Just tell us
generally.
Mr. RUBY. Well, they offered it for sale to foreign countries,
publications in foreign countries, and also here through the
newspapers, through a sales organization that handles that, I think,
out of New York.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that life story serialized in a number of newspapers
throughout the country?
Mr. RUBY. When you say serialized, I don’t understand what you mean.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was published over a period of days.
Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it appear in any national magazines?
Mr. RUBY. No; not in the United States. I don’t think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some original discussion with Woodfield that
it would appear, that he would try to sell it to a national magazine?
Mr. RUBY. Well, our agreement was that he would sell it—yes, that if he
could sell it to a national magazine that he would.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any discussions with him about selling it to
the Saturday Evening Post?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did that discussion take place?
Mr. RUBY. Not until later; probably down in Dallas when we met in
Dallas later on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much did the Ruby defense ultimately realize from that
newspaper article?
Mr. RUBY. The net?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. A little over $30,000.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you people get—did the Ruby defense also get
contributions from people?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; but very little, very little.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us approximately what the total of the
contributions were?
Mr. RUBY. Contributions—are you speaking right up to today now or until
the trial?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Not until the exact day. But do you have some figure as
to what it was up to today? Roughly, what it is? I don’t ask you to be
accurate to the penny.
Mr. RUBY. Well now, you see there are two funds, the story fund and a
separate fund that a defense committee was trying to raise.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, the story fund comprises the $30,000.
Mr. RUBY. Separate; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else in that fund besides the $30,000,
or did anything else go into it?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I put in whatever donations my brother received in the
jail I deposited. It was only—I don’t think it was $500 from there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, other monies were given for the defense, though, were
they not?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they go into the defense committee fund? Did these
other monies go into the defense committee fund?
Mr. RUBY. Well, they were used for paying the bills, if that is what
you mean.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am trying to get at is, you say there are two
funds, one fund is what you call the newspaper fund——
Mr. RUBY. Well, you see, that—the newspaper—was more or less Jack
Ruby’s own fund. He authorized to write the story, and that was more or
less his own fund.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. RUBY. But this is a separate committee that was set up in Chicago,
and they got several hundred dollars but we spent—well, on one ad we
spent $200 for the ad and we got $205 back—to give you an idea. We kept
using the money hoping to get more money in but it didn’t work out too
well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us who the members of that defense committee
are?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes. There is Michael Levin, a lawyer in Chicago, my
brother Hyman Ruby, Rubenstein, and Barney Ross, Marty Eritt.
Then there is another one or two in there that I am not too familiar
with. But they have got stationery. I don’t have it with me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What efforts did they make to obtain funds?
Mr. RUBY. Well, they wrote some letters and they did advertising,
as I told you. However, quite a few of the—quite a few—most of the
newspapers wouldn’t take the ad. The Chicago papers wouldn’t take it.
The Tribune, and the Sun-Times in Chicago wouldn’t take an ad for an
appeal for funds for Jack Ruby.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever given any reasons?
Mr. RUBY. No; the answers were it is not their policy, and there was
another reason, I can’t remember the exact words. I don’t recall. But
Mike Levin did most of that, you know—the lawyer—he did most of the
calling and he told me, but I don’t remember the exact words and I
would rather not say—you know, if I am not sure of the exact words.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t want you to say if you didn’t hear it.
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you keep the records for that defense committee fund?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; most—yes; I would say yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have those records here with you today?
Mr. RUBY. No; I gave them to an agent, though. I give them to an agent
some time ago. I gave him a list of all the monies that came in, and I
think I even gave him a list of who I paid it out to.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your best estimate of how much money came in
altogether in the defense committee fund?
Mr. RUBY. Now you are not talking about the story—right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.
Mr. RUBY. From the defense committee fund between $1,500 and $2,000,
altogether.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the expenses of the fund or is this—excuse me—is
this $1,500 or $2,000—is that a net figure or a gross figure?
Mr. RUBY. That is a gross.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. After expenses, what was ultimately left for
the application to the defense?
Mr. RUBY. I can’t give you an exact figure because I just can’t recall
all of the expenses we had, because I just paid a bill last week,
and I just don’t have it, but I would say we spent probably close to
a thousand dollars, because one ad alone was close to $300, and the
letter was another $300—is $600 already that I can think of. There were
other, smaller expenses.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what the total expenses were that have been
for the defense of your brother so far?
Mr. RUBY. In the low thirties. Of course, you must understand we are
continually spending money, so I don’t have it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you been given an estimate recently as to what the
total expenses of the defense of your brother is going to be?
Mr. RUBY. An estimate?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. You mean if it goes to the Supreme Court and all that?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; have you been given any estimate as to what the total
expenses might be.
Mr. RUBY. No; I would say no. Just said it would run into a lot of
money but no figure was ever actually quoted, except by Belli.
You see, he really didn’t, either. He just—I am trying to think what
his statement was, now. No; he didn’t either, because at that time we
weren’t talking about Supreme Court, we were only talking about—you
know—the first trial.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his——
Mr. RUBY. He mentioned between $75,000 and $100,000.
Mr. GRIFFIN. As a total cost.
Mr. RUBY. Of the first trial. And that is now his fee and everything,
when you are talking expenses. I am talking everything they wanted.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of a fee did he quote to you at that time?
Mr. RUBY. He was talking about $50,000, if I recall correctly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he quote it to you personally or is this a figure you
have learned from somebody else?
Mr. RUBY. No; he quoted it to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now how much——
Mr. RUBY. In other words, it wasn’t a definite figure. He said it could
be around, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have the costs of the investigation for the defense been
paid to date?
Mr. RUBY. What do you mean by investigations?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the defense hire investigators?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And have these investigators been paid for their work?
Mr. RUBY. Not completely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know——
Mr. RUBY. Well, there is a difference of opinion so——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us how much has been paid and how much is
claimed as to the total bill?
Mr. RUBY. Well, the original investigator that we had, I think, we paid
him about $5,000 already, plus some expenses of a thousand dollars or
so; I don’t remember the exact figures, and he claims we owe him $1,500.
Mr. GRIFFIN. More?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; and there is a little dispute about that.
Now, we have got a new investigator, I don’t know his name there. My
sister hired him down there and she has given him several hundred
dollars, I don’t know how much. I don’t know how much she gave him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Howard get any money?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much was he paid?
Mr. RUBY. I think we paid him, I am not sure of this figure though,
$3,500.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the remaining funds that have been paid, I take it,
have been paid to Mr. Belli?
Mr. RUBY. Belli got, I think, $11,000, if I am not mistaken. Then
we paid the doctors, I don’t know, $5,000 or $6,000, you know, the
psychiatrists that came down, and some of my expenses came out, just my
flight expenses and telephone calls, and who else now?
We gave Burleson some money, he has got, I think, about a thousand
dollars that we gave him since the trial. He was supposed to get paid
from Belli before. That is the reason we didn’t pay him. However,
he claimed Belli never gave him anything. And we paid, like George
Senator, the witness, our No. 1 witness, we had to give him money to
live on because he was so, what shall I say the word for that, well,
he lost his job and he was so upset he couldn’t, you know, he just
couldn’t work.
And then we had to pay—he went home and I had to send him airplane fare
to come back, you know, and there is——
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Larry Crafard, did you pay him any money?
Mr. RUBY. Larry Crafard, I think we just gave him a few dollars, $5
maybe because he was broke when he was living on the road, he didn’t
have a dime, so I think I gave him some money.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Larry incidentally contact you any time while you were
in Detroit?
Mr. RUBY. No, no; I wish he would have, because he hitchhiked all the
way down there, and I was driving at the same time, but he didn’t know
I lived there, and we——
Mr. GRIFFIN. How was he notified to come to the trial?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. If I remember correctly he came on his own.
He just thought that when all this came out about, you know, Jack
getting him to take that picture of Earl Warren, he had the camera or
something, I forgot the full details myself, but he is the one who took
the picture, right, if I am not mistaken, and he just thought he should
come down to help Jack as much as he possibly could.
Could I go a little further?
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t really want to pry into this unless this is
something you care to reveal.
Mr. RUBY. The most important thing is coming up now, I mean one of the
most important things.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I do want to reflect this—that I don’t want
to push you into saying things, talking about subjects that you would
rather not talk about, and I realize that this in one of them. Now, if
you do want to say something about it why, of course, we would be happy
to hear anything you want to say.
Mr. RUBY. Well, I returned home, I went from L.A. to Dallas, I talked
to Jack, I talked to Howard. We hadn’t hired Belli yet. He was going to
go down and see Jack, and talk to him before he decided to come in,
you know, and take over the case.
I went back to Detroit and in a couple of days I get another call, I
get a call, from Woodfield. He is very upset. He just heard some news
that he thinks I must know. However, it is so confidential that he
can’t even tell it to me over the phone. And I talk to Mike Shore and
between us—they couldn’t tell me on the phone, I had better go back to
California.
So, I go out there again. The story he tells me is that, in the
meantime he is trying to make contacts, this is about a week later.
He is trying to make contact to sell the story to the different
publications, to the Saturday Evening Post, you know, and other
publications, and somebody from the Saturday Evening Post called him,
I think—now this is what he told me—and said that Tom Howard was up
to the Saturday Evening Post office in Dallas offering for sale a
picture of President Kennedy with a piece of his head shot off, and so
I immediately, or as soon as I could, when I left them, I called my
sister Eva in Dallas and I said, “Get a hold of the agent that has been
talking—that has been taking—your story there and tell them about this
so they can check into it.”
And then I went home, I flew back to Detroit.
By the time I got to Detroit they had tried to contact me to get some
more information on the story. I mentioned this to Tom Howard and he
denied it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was his denial a flat denial?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes; you know, complete, and you know. However, I
think it was the fellow at the Saturday Evening Post that said—now I
have given all this to the special agents or, I think, the Treasury
Department.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. The Saturday Evening Post man said, “Well, let them come in
front of me in my office and deny it.”
But, of course, we never brought it to a head. But, anyhow, I don’t
know what happened. They never told me, of course, as you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the name of the Saturday Evening Post man in
Dallas that Howard allegedly contacted.
Mr. RUBY. No; I did originally but I think I gave it to the agents.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk personally to this man from the Saturday
Evening Post who claims he talked to Howard?
Mr. RUBY. No; Woodfield.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Somebody—you just reported that somebody said—“Let Howard
come before me and deny it.”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it this was the Saturday Evening Post man who
allegedly made that statement?
Mr. RUBY. Let me look in my book. Perhaps I have it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am getting at is where did you get—who told
you—that the Saturday Evening Post man said that?
Mr. RUBY. Woodfield.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Woodfield?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So everything you know about this transaction between
Howard and the Saturday Evening Post comes either from Woodfield or
from Howard’s denial?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; right. I don’t have it. I may have it somewhere else in
another book but I don’t have it here.
By the way, if you are asking about the finances, we still have bills
of—altogether from what my sister tells me—of close to $10,000 that are
unpaid now.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there any money left in either of the funds at this
point?
Mr. RUBY. No; I have been putting it off.
I mean, Burleson insists he wants some money so I have been sending him
out of my personal account.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How soon after your brother shot Oswald did you see him?
Mr. RUBY. I think it was about at least a week.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well——
Mr. RUBY. I am not sure. Because I made so many trips there. I was down
there about seven or eight times.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it before you went to Los Angeles to see Mike Shore?
Mr. RUBY. No; I think I made it on the way back. I went to Los Angeles
first, the first trip, and then on the way back I went to Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time did you spend with Jack on this first visit?
Mr. RUBY. Well, they only let you talk about 20 minutes or a half hour
at the most.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When is the last time you have seen him?
Mr. RUBY. The last time I saw him was—I was there at the verdict, you
know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen him since the verdict?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, oh, yes; I stayed there for at least several days,
anyhow, and I saw him every day at least once.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you seen him since then?
Mr. RUBY. No, no; since I came back, since that trip, I haven’t been
back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you notice any change in your brother’s
mental and physical condition between the first time that you saw him
in Dallas and the last time that you saw him in Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; definitely. Physically he lost about 30 pounds,
and you know, his face was drawn and his eyes sunken, and in addition
to that he was despondent, of course, and you couldn’t—he would have
to repeat questions or ask questions from him more than once to get a
reply. It just didn’t seem to register all the time.
Even Belli mentioned that he couldn’t get across to Jack all the time,
and Burleson mentioned to me several times that Jack is off his rocker.
This was, you know——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this after the verdict or before?
Mr. RUBY. No; before. He says, “Your brother is off his rocker. He
has got himself involved with all the Jews all over the world and he
doesn’t know what he is talking about,” but my brother did know what
he was talking about. It was Burleson who didn’t understand. Because
in order to understand—it is a Jewish problem—and most Jews would
understand it.
Burleson, not being familiar with this, it just went over his head. I
didn’t even think of it then but he kept telling me, “Your brother has
got himself all mixed up with all the Jews all over the world and he is
off his rocker.” That was the statement he made several times to me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like to explore this with you at some length if
you don’t mind.
Mr. RUBY. That is why I brought this with me. I have all of this in
here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me try to ask you some questions first and then we
will get into the papers that you have brought. You say there was a
disagreement, that you disagreed with Burleson’s appraisal of your
brother’s involvement with the Jewish question.
Mr. RUBY. He couldn’t explain it. So, really, I didn’t understand it
myself. I didn’t know what he was talking about at the time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You subsequently did come to learn what he was talking
about, I take it?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; it wasn’t until somebody brought it to my attention,
really.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was brought to your attention—what particular facts?
Mr. RUBY. Well, the fact it seemed that Jack in digging down into his
past, he had an obsession about the Jewish people, and he always went
out of his way to show people that Jews are not bad people, you know,
because you know they have been persecuted over the years, and that is
one of the reasons he brought the policemen at the station sandwiches
and went out of his way to bring them cheesecakes and he was in debt
to me for thousands of dollars, yet he never sent me any money but he
always had money to give more or less or lend to these other people,
almost all non-Jews to show them that a Jew would help them out.
A policeman became a father and was short on money, he would lend him a
couple of hundred, never got it back, never got anything back.
Another friend he ran into needed a car to get a job—lent him a few
hundred.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know—can you give us the names of some of these
people?
Mr. RUBY. No; but my sister has them down there. I don’t have it. But
I know of these instances, and he read all these books on the Jewish
problem, the persecution of the Jews, going all the way back.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?
Mr. RUBY. I know from my sister. He lived with my sister and she told
me, and he told me—both.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this Eva?
Mr. RUBY. Eva; yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack has told you that he read books on the Jewish
problems?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; he even went to lectures on it, the synagogue, they had
movies of the killings of the Jews in Germany. He went to all of these,
things of that sort.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know if Mr. Hubert has covered this or not, but do
you recall an episode or a period back before World War II when Jack
showed some concern about the Jewish problem, about the treatment of
the Jews?
Mr. RUBY. Before World War II?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. You mean—well, he was in Chicago in the early thirties, they
had the Nazi Bund meetings and Jack was always one to go and see if he
could help break them up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go on any of these groups?
Mr. RUBY. No, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well——
Mr. RUBY. He was about 4 years older than I am.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Over what period of time was Jack involved in trying to
break up these Bund meetings?
Mr. RUBY. In the early thirties there, I don’t remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any other people who participated with him
in those?
Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t know their names.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a group of people or would Jack go alone?
Mr. RUBY. No, no; it was a group. But I don’t know the other names.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it any sort of organized group? Was there an
organization that he belonged to?
Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think it was an organization. It just was several
Jewish fellows and I don’t think they had an organization of any kind.
Just when they learned that meetings were taking place, they would go
there and try to break them up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack ever arrested in connection with any of those?
Mr. RUBY. Not as far as I know, because he has no arrest along those
lines at all.
In fact, the only violation he has, from what I could gather, was being
open after hours, and carrying concealed weapons which, from what I
understand, they don’t need a permit in Dallas, you know, when he
carried large sums of money.
Other than that—you must understand I was away from him, practically
from the time he went to Dallas until the incident. I only saw him for
short periods of time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of the Dave Miller gang?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the Dave Miller gang?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I read about them in the paper. I was just a school
kid then, but that was a gang that hung around Dave Miller’s fight
gymnasium, that is all I can remember. But I know something like that
existed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did they get newspaper publicity?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have anything to do with those people?
Mr. RUBY. He used to hang around Dave Miller’s gym but he was Barney
Ross’ follower like, and I think Barney Ross trained there and so he
was very close with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, this group that was referred to as the Dave
Miller gang.
Mr. RUBY. Dave Miller was a referee.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dave Miller was a referee?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; Davy Miller was a referee in Chicago for many years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he ran a gymnasium?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; to train the fighters.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And did Dave Miller have a following of some sort?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I would say it was—there was a restaurant downstairs
and it was a hangout. He owned the restaurant and the gym, and he was a
referee so the fighters hung around there and other people came around
to see the fighters, so it was a general hangout for people of that
type.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the Dave Miller gang have anything to do with these
efforts to break up the Bund meetings?
Mr. RUBY. I think so, but I don’t have any concrete evidence. I think
they did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you go ahead and tell us—let me ask you this,
rather. You say that your awareness of your brother’s, what we’ll call
involvement with his Jewish background or his position in society as a
person of Jewish background, was brought to your attention by someone
else. Who brought this to your attention?
Mr. RUBY. No; what was brought to my attention, I knew he was also
interested in the Jewish problem, but I didn’t think it entered into
this picture because I didn’t—this article here that was drawn up by
Sol Dann, who through his daughter, a friend of the family, became
interested in it because he could see what was in the background, and
he studied all the things and he got some information from me and he
talked to my brother, my sister and the psychiatrists on the case,
and the more he talked to them the more he could see that this was
an obsession with my brother, who probably didn’t realize it was as
great an obsession as it actually was, and that is probably one of the
reasons why Belli mentioned to me on a few occasions, “I can’t get
across to your brother. I don’t have a client.”
He says, “I have a patient, not a client.”
He mentioned that to me several times. He says, “I can’t get through to
your brother.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give any specific indications?
Mr. RUBY. No; I didn’t go any further either, because I thought Belli
was such a great lawyer. I say—I don’t even remember what I said, I
just—then he had psychiatrists, when the psychiatrist would interview
my brother he would talk to him afterward, and if ever I asked, I
mean, what they say, he says, “Well, they claim he is sick, he has got
this”—I don’t know the medical terms he used, you know, and so on and
so forth, and, “We have a good case, he is definitely sick,” and all
that, but the real problem. I mean the obsession itself, I don’t think
that even registered with Belli or the other psychiatrists, because
as far as I know—because it was never mentioned at the trial, and the
psychiatrists never mentioned it to us, and we didn’t think to tell it
to them, because we didn’t know if it had any importance or not, but we
find now in talking to the psychiatrists that it is of great importance
and it was probably one of the factors in his thinking the way he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What about Mr. Burleson—did he tell you during this
period, when you didn’t understand what he was talking about—what did
he tell you about Jack?
Mr. RUBY. Well, he was aloof from us. That was the big problem with
that trial.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me say, Mr. Ruby, I don’t want to, I am not asking you
to comment on the way Mr. Burleson conducted himself, but I am trying
to find out what it was he said to you about Jack which you didn’t
comprehend at the time.
Mr. RUBY. He said he is getting himself involved with all the Jews all
over the world on an international scale—“He is off his rocker”—that
was one of his——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he specify any of the things Jack was talking about?
Mr. RUBY. No; he used to say, “Jews all over the world, on an
international scale,” that was his expression several times and then,
of course, he stated, “He is off his rocker.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Burleson tell you this sort of thing before the
trial, or only after the trial?
Mr. RUBY. Before and during, I would say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Right.
Mr. RUBY. And not so much after, because after we were disgusted, I
will tell you that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before the trial did Mr. Burleson begin to call
these problems about involvement with Jews.
Mr. RUBY. Right after he got involved. Because he lived in Dallas, and
he talked to my brother more so than anyone else because he lives there
and right after he got into the case, not a few days later, he says,
you know, made the statement again, “That your brother has got himself
involved with all the Jews on an international scale and he is off his
rocker, he doesn’t know what he is talking about.”
And to be truthful to you I didn’t understand his statement. It didn’t
register with me because they kept saying, Belli said, “Your brother is
sick. I have got a patient on my hands, you know. I am trying to take
care of your brother, and I can’t get across to him.”
And my brother, I know, he had many fights because of the Jewish
question, of being called, you know, names, referring to his Jewish
parents and all that stuff, and, of course, I have been through it
myself but he more so, and he fought more about it.
He was always quick tempered and just couldn’t take it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What other fights did he get involved in because of the
Jewish question?
Mr. RUBY. Many fights. I know on several occasions he came home once
with his suit full of blood from downtown.
He was downtown Chicago. I said, “What happened?”
He said, “Somebody called me a dirty Jew or something like that.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who he fought with on that occasion?
Mr. RUBY. No, no; there are many instances that my older brothers and
sisters know of because I was younger, 4 years younger and in his
teens, early teens, I didn’t go with him because 4 years makes a big
difference, and I went my way and he went his way.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old was Jack at the time that you saw him with this
suit full of blood?
Mr. RUBY. This goes back now, if I recall in 1946, I think, 1946.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This was after he got out of the service?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes; he told me he had several fights in the service
regarding this. He told me he had fights with a professional
heavyweight in the service because he said something about the Jews.
My brother was so Jewish conscious that it didn’t make any difference
whether he said, swore at him for being a Jew or he swore at somebody
else a half a block away. He would get in there and fight right away,
you know, unless they apologized and what have you. And he—so this,
checking into it from what the psychiatrists tell me, he went out of
his way to show the gentiles that in their thinking that all the Jews
are no good or money grabbers or what have you, here was a nice guy
that went out of his way—and didn’t have the money—to help anybody he
could.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any examples of this from the period that you
worked with him at Earl Products?
Mr. RUBY. Well, this——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s just focus on that for a while.
Mr. RUBY. He was with me only a short period.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What examples do you have from that period?
Mr. RUBY. I know from Earl Products is when he had that fight.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What else?
Mr. RUBY. That I know of. Other instances, I can’t think of because as
I said he went around with an older group of fellows than I did. We
didn’t run around together. And not only that, I was married then, and
you know he has been a bachelor all his life so he went to places——
Mr. GRIFFIN. You traveled with him, didn’t you in the early forties you
traveled with Jack, didn’t you?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; a little bit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, look back on that experience, if you can, do you
remember any episodes from that?
Mr. RUBY. Actually, you must understand I didn’t travel with him. I
only met him every weekend. He traveled by himself, and I traveled by
myself, and we got together on weekends and then we would only see each
other Friday night and then he would go on.
And we traveled through the East mostly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Ruby, you have brought certain papers with you, and
Mr. Hubert is now in the room, and I want to bring him up to date a
little bit on where we are, and we have been talking sometime about
your brother’s obsession, as I think you call it, with his position in
society as a person of Jewish background, and you indicated to me that
you really only fully became aware of this problem since your brother
shot Oswald, but that you have thought about it considerably since
then, and that you have brought with you certain papers in connection
with it.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder first if you can first identify a paper in your
hand, if you will identify that paper, and I will give it an exhibit
number.
Mr. RUBY. What would you call this——
Mr. GRIFFIN. You are handing me——
Mr. RUBY. This document.
Mr. GRIFFIN. A document that consists of 30 typewritten pages
purporting to have been prepared by a man named Sol Dann, 1820 David
Stott Building, Detroit 26, Mich. This is a Xerox copy and on the first
page I am going to write your name “Earl Ruby Deposition, June 3, 1964,
Exhibit No. 1” and I will ask you if you will state for the record what
that is.
(Earl Ruby Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.)
Mr. RUBY. Well, this I would like to get into the record if I can.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is Exhibit No. 1 and then I will mark this other
thing that you gave me.
Mr. RUBY. This is only what I want to state.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Exhibit No. 1, tell us what that is. In a general fashion
tell us what that consists of.
Mr. RUBY. Well, this is as was stated, prepared by Mr. Dann as to why
or one of the reasons, that Ruby, that is Jack Ruby, shot Oswald.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you have also handed me a handwritten
penciled set of papers consisting of three pages.
Mr. RUBY. I was going to read that, is that all right?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Certainly.
Mr. RUBY. That was my intention if it is all right with you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a statement you would like to make for the
record?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, go ahead then.
Mr. RUBY. I am filing this document with you because it explains why I
need the help of the United States, and more especially, your help.
My brother, Jack, was deprived, and is presently being deprived, of
his constitutional and civil rights. The hatred and bigotry in Dallas,
Tex., resulted in the assassination of our President. It almost cost
the lives of our present President, Mr. Johnson, and others.
With all the protection that this Government could give it could not
guard against and prevent the assassination.
My family and myself are unable to cope with that situation and it may
result in my brother’s death.
As pointed out in this document, my brother, Jack, is being made
the scapegoat of this horrible situation. I, therefore, need, and
respectfully request, your assistance in order that those guilty
of this atrocity, either because of their acts or omission, gross
negligence, or commission shall not go unpunished or undisciplined.
I don’t think that my brother, who had nothing to do with the
assassination of the President, should be the only one punished. My
family as well as myself have almost exhausted all of our resources in
an effort to protect my brother’s civil rights, but now I am calling
upon you for the help we need.
That is it.
Mr. HUBERT. I suggest you put the document in the record as well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you mind, Mr. Ruby, if we would put that in the record?
Mr. RUBY. No; this I didn’t use.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will mark the three pages from what you have just read.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I have marked them “Earl Ruby Deposition, June 3, 1964,
Exhibit No. 2,” and that is on the first page. I think on the second
page I will write Exhibit No. 2, and on the third page I will write
Exhibit No. 2.
I will ask you if we may keep this and include this as part of our
permanent record.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you Exhibit No. 2 and ask you if you will sign
it on the first page and initial each of the other pages.
(Earl Ruby Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.)
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Ruby, may I ask, this is addressed to whom, this
Exhibit No. 2, which you actually read into the record. Who are you
addressing it to?
Mr. RUBY. To the Commission.
Mr. HUBERT. To the Commission. It is your desire that we see that the
members of the Commission receive that document, is that correct?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. That is to say both your letter and the attachment?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; both.
Mr. HUBERT. I notice that Exhibit No. 1 which is the long one of 30
pages, has the name Sol Dann.
Mr. RUBY. Sol Dann.
Mr. HUBERT. I also notice he didn’t sign it. Did he actually prepare it?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; he did.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you read it?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you concur in what he says then?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there any reason why he didn’t sign it?
Mr. RUBY. No; I didn’t even notice it, to be honest with you.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask Mr. Ruby, I will hand him back Exhibit No. 1,
and ask you if you will simply sign that on the first page, so we may
have it properly marked for the record.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you about Exhibit No. 2. This is in pencil?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I didn’t think that you would want it so I, of course,
didn’t——
Mr. HUBERT. When did you write this Exhibit No. 2?
Mr. RUBY. Yesterday.
Mr. HUBERT. It is your own handwriting?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
I will have photostats made of this.
Mr. RUBY. If it doesn’t take, I can rewrite it in ink in 5 or 10
minutes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you some questions to get the background of
this document which we have marked here as Exhibit No. 1.
First of all, would you tell us how you happened to know Mr. Dann?
Mr. RUBY. His daughter teaches Hebrew in the school where my daughter
attends, and his daughter impressed on him, after several conversations
to contact me, and see what he could do to help us because he has
been very active in helping I should say, the minority groups of any
organization.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what Mr. Dann does for a living?
Mr. RUBY. He is an attorney.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Detroit?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How old a man is Mr. Dann?
Mr. RUBY. I would say 55. That is a guess, of course.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Mr. Dann before his daughter talked with you
about——
Mr. RUBY. His daughter didn’t talk with me. She talked with him and
finally convinced him to contact me and see what he could do to help us.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did Mr. Dann first contact you?
Mr. RUBY. Shortly after the verdict was passed.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you know what efforts Mr. Dann made after talking
with you, to talk with other people in order to prepare this document?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; he talked with many other people, the psychiatrists, he
talked with Dr. West. He talked with Dr. Smith, the chief counsel, he
talked, with Mr. Charles Bellows, the consultant on the case.
He talked to a psychiatrist by the name of Tanay in Detroit, and he
mentioned several other people but I don’t recall their names.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you——
Mr. RUBY. Excuse me; he also talked to my brother in Dallas, Sam.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you say he talked with your brother Jack?
Mr. RUBY. No; he talked to Eva. But he talked to Dr. West and Dr. Smith
and Bellows who spent a lot of time with Jack, of course, altogether.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated to Mr. Hubert that this Exhibit No. 1 had
been read by you and that it generally reflected your views.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; yes, sir.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us in your own words generally what is set
forth in Exhibit No. 1?
Mr. RUBY. Well, it goes into, it explains Jack’s thinking along the
Jewish problem, and his obsession and his love of President Kennedy,
his going out of the way to try to be an exceptionally good guy by
helping gentiles as much as he possibly could, and in any way he could.
It also explains happenings at the trial. The withholding of evidence
by District Attorney Henry Wade that should have been presented to the
court. That my brother had received psychiatric help when he was 10
years old and none of the family knew it except the FBI, who had turned
this information over to Wade.
However, Wade never permitted this to be used at the trial, and it also
goes into telling of many cases that were reversed because of incidents
similar to those which took place at my brother Jack’s trial, and
states for these many reasons that the verdict should be reversed for
all of these mistakes or negligence or whatever you may call it on the
part of the court and the State’s attorney.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it correct, do I have the correct understanding then,
that in a sense we can break this down into two parts: One part of the
document deals with the facts that have to do with Jack’s obsession?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And the other part has to do with the legal errors in the
trial?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; right—correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me direct myself to some of the factual issues that
are raised by Exhibit No. 1. I have made some notes here as you have
been talking, and I want you, after we cover this, to tell me if I have
left anything out that you think is important, but I want to try to
cover this in orderly fashion. I am going backward though.
One issue that you raised here was that District Attorney Wade had
withheld certain psychiatric evidence at the trial that had been turned
over to him by the FBI.
Mr. RUBY. By the FBI.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that was that your brother Jack had received
psychiatric help at age 10 and none of the family members knew about it?
Mr. RUBY. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to tell us what your present understanding
is now as to how Jack happened to get this psychiatric treatment, and
where it was administered, and for how long, and the other details?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know that but the FBI gave that information to Wade,
and Tonahill has that information in Dallas but I don’t have the exact
dates.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you know where he got the psychiatric aid?
Mr. RUBY. In Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what institution?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You say Tonahill has this information?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how this evidence happened to be given, or let
me ask you this, how do you know this evidence was given by the FBI to
Mr. Wade?
Mr. RUBY. Tonahill.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tonahill has told you?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that it was given to Wade by the FBI.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Tonahill learn about this?
Mr. RUBY. That I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Tonahill——
Mr. RUBY. Well, he handled all the contacts with the FBI.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tonahill did?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; more or less.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It is your understanding that the work of the trial team
was divided up in such a way that only Tonahill dealt with the FBI, for
the most part?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; as far as I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, so you have no personal information, further personal
information, at this time about this psychiatric help which Jack got at
age 10?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When Jack was 10 was he living in the home?
Mr. RUBY. In a foster home, yes; so far as I can understand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, that would have made you 6, is that right?
Mr. RUBY. Would have made me 6.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you living at age 6?
Mr. RUBY. To tell you the truth, I don’t know but I think I was living
in Chicago, of course, and I don’t remember the name. I think the name
of the people were Speeves, but I don’t know if I went to the farm,
they sent me to a farm for a year, whether I was on a farm at the time
but anyhow we weren’t together those years.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For how many years were you separated from the rest of the
family as a child?
Mr. RUBY. To tell you the truth, I don’t know when it started. I would
say 5, 6 years maybe. I was in three foster homes that I remember all
together. I know I was on a farm, and then at two foster homes that I
can distinctly remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember how old you were when you returned to the
home of your family, your mother’s and father’s home?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I think it was in 1928, 1928, so I must have been 13
years old.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And that would have made Jack 17.
Mr. RUBY. Seventeen; I am not sure whether it was—I just don’t
remember. It has got to be a little before that. Because I went to that
Shepherd School for a few years, it had to be there from 1925 to 1928,
but I don’t know exactly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living in the home when you went to the Shepherd
School?
Mr. RUBY. You mean was I living with the family?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack living with the family at that time?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is when we were all brought back together.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Jack finished high school at that time?
Mr. RUBY. No, no; Jack didn’t finish high school.
Mr. GRIFFIN. No; but was Jack still attending school when he returned
to the home?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; he was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to recall how long Jack continued to attend
school after you returned to the family, to your family?
Mr. RUBY. No; I know he graduated from that Shepherd School but when I
don’t know. As far as I know he graduated from that school and then he
went to Marshall High School for a while and then he dropped out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Another thing that you mentioned that we were discussing
in Exhibit 1, that Mr. Dann had assembled some facts and had discussed
Jack’s efforts to show that the Jews are good people by himself helping
gentiles.
Now I want you to go back and comb your recollection of the period
you lived with and worked with Jack for incidents when you can recall
of your own knowledge of Jack helping gentiles, or helping people in
general, let’s not limit it to Jews or gentiles.
Mr. RUBY. Well, even when we were in business, we had that problem
which came up several times, where he would take some of the
merchandise, like our pens that we were using, and salt and pepper
shakers, and almost every day or two he would take a load of samples.
When I asked him he would say, “Well, a nice guy here or there and I
gave him one or two, what difference does it make”, in the meantime he
was giving them out all the time. If anybody wanted one he would just
give it to them. But at that time no remark was made as far as I can
remember as to why he did it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you be able to give us names of any people who, you
know might have been the beneficiaries of this?
Mr. RUBY. I wouldn’t remember, because I wouldn’t know where, but most
of this took place or a great part of it anyhow in Dallas, and the
names of those I think we could get.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about as far as you are concerned, of course, you knew
him in Chicago, how about people that you can think of that Jack would
have extended these kindnesses to in Chicago?
Mr. RUBY. I couldn’t remember any names because there was no reason
to remember this, and this goes back so far. It is 20 years at the
earliest.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you also mentioned that your brother had a great
love for President Kennedy. Can you give us some examples of that?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I didn’t realize it, I mean, because I haven’t been
with him since the Kennedy family and Kennedy himself, to really become
involved in politics because he was in Dallas and I was in Chicago and
in Detroit. However, I know that when they, I think it was the Dallas
Morning News printed that full page, whatever you call that, statement——
Mr. GRIFFIN. The black bordered advertising?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; the black bordered advertising which more or less
definitely insulted the President, he went to the paper and asked them
if they needed the money so bad that they had to print such a horrible
thing even though the other paper had turned it down.
And I think you know he was so upset about seeing that sign on the
roadside about “Impeach Earl Warren” that in the middle of the night he
got his roommate out and got Jerry Crafard, I think his name was, to
take a picture of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know why he was upset about it?
Mr. RUBY. Well, he couldn’t see why anything like that could happen.
Here is another great man, and he just couldn’t understand it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you surmising this or did——
Mr. RUBY. Well, I talked to George Senator who was his roommate, he
said he was infuriated that a sign like that should be put up. And that
was brought out in the trial, of course, and proved.
Then he on the night of the assassination, or rather on the afternoon
he immediately closed the club, and when he was asked if he—what about
the other night club owners because there is another, I think one or
two clubs on the same block as his, yes, there are two more, whether
they are going to close or not, in a statement he made, he doesn’t
care if they close or not, he is going to be closed in respect to the
President.
Then he went to the services at the synagogue in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how long he was at that service?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know how long, but I know that he broke down terribly
there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to anybody who——
Mr. RUBY. I heard it from the Rabbi who was there, that he was—of
course, most of the people there were broken up but he was most unusual
because he was in deep tears, he really was. And he was so upset
and so disgusted with this situation that he called my sister Eileen
in Chicago and told her this is a good time to get out of Dallas. He
is ashamed of it, that this thing could happen there, and he will
probably—he wants to come up to Chicago for a few days, you know, to
visit with her. Well, she discouraged him from coming up. He wanted to
come to Chicago, and he also called my brother Hy in Chicago after the
assassination, and told him how terrible it was, and he thinks he is
going to get out of Dallas, he is coming back to Chicago altogether.
He also called his good friend, this was all brought out in the trial,
not all of it but most of it, although those last two incidents about
him calling my brother and my sister were never entered into evidence.
We couldn’t understand that.
He also called a fellow in California, Al Gruber, I think is his name,
and Gruber said he just couldn’t talk. He just couldn’t talk he was so
broken up.
So we know he was really broken up, and he must have really loved him
because otherwise you just don’t do these things. And the fact that he
went to the newspaper and complained to them for even taking the ad,
and I mean nobody else did this.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any examples of his conduct in Dallas before
the President was shot that would show his feeling toward President
Kennedy?
Mr. RUBY. No; We don’t have—nothing that I know of. We don’t have
anything that I know of.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if you can give us some more examples of——
Mr. RUBY. There is a bit about his patriotism that might mean something.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that.
Mr. RUBY. This happened many years ago. They were playing the Star
Spangled Banner in the stadium in Chicago before all sporting events,
and a friend who was with him, a fellow by the name of Mr. Kolitz told
me this himself, he was smoking.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What is Mr. Kolitz’s first name?
Mr. RUBY. Ira. He was smoking when the Star Spangled Banner was playing
and my brother insisted he put out his cigarette, that it wasn’t in
good taste to be smoking when the Star Spangled Banner was being played.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Your brother didn’t approve of smoking either, did he?
Mr. RUBY. No; he didn’t smoke at all. Well, neither do I, for that
matter. But this I didn’t find out about until a couple of months ago
because I ran into this party in Chicago, and you know talking about
these things, and he says, “How could they accuse your brother of being
a Communist”, and then he related this incident to me. He says, “I
remember, you know at the stadium when this happened, and he actually
insisted I put the cigarette out.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack in your dealings with him, did he strive to be
important and did he strive for recognition, things like that?
Mr. RUBY. I would say, well, he tried to be a success. He always wanted
to be a success in life.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his idea of being a success?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, having a family and being happily married and earning a
steady living.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you about his desires to have a family?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; on a few occasions. Once when he had financial
failure and he was terribly depressed back in the early fifties, I
think, he came to Chicago. He was just terribly depressed and he says,
“Well, it looks like it is the end for me.” And, you know, he had no—he
was penniless, and I tried to help him out again there. I was trying to
look around for a business for him, to be truthful with you because we
were doing pretty well, making a living, a good living, and I thought I
could help him out but he decided to go back to Dallas again.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, there have been reports that Jack was the kind
of a person who liked, who wanted everybody to know him and liked to be
a big shot, some people might say. Did you have any experiences with
him that would indicate anything about those kind of observations?
Mr. RUBY. Well, he was pretty well known in Chicago. He always was a
good athlete, a good ballplayer. He was a very great swimmer, and he
was very close to Barney Ross, so I would say—and he had many friends,
so he was pretty well liked, and maybe some people would get the
impression that he was a big shot but actually I don’t think he ever
went out of the way to try to show people he was a big shot.
However, maybe I didn’t notice it because I am his brother. And he was
my older brother, and so maybe I just didn’t notice it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if you can explain what seems to be on the one
hand signs of his obsessions about being a Jew, such as you pointed
out as fighting the Bundists and things like that, and on the other
hand, what appears to be a lack of regular devotion to going to church
services every week and keeping the religious home, and so forth?
Mr. RUBY. Well, the reason for that is I am more or less the same way
as I explained before because in the breaking up of our home we were
drawn away from this life, you see. I was living with—on a farm—I was
living with gentile people and there wasn’t any synagogue there to go
to, and so we drifted away from the services. And because before that
we used to go to the Hebrew school, before our home was broken up, we
all went to Hebrew school.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you learn Hebrew?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, sure. Jack and—we went only until our home was broken up.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you were living in your home, did your parents keep a
kosher home?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; definitely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was a kosher home?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; definitely. Oh, sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. To what extent was it a kosher home?
Mr. RUBY. We would call it orthodox, you know, change of dishes and all
that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Dietary rules?
Mr. RUBY. Sure; that is right. Sure, sure. But, of course, when we——
Mr GRIFFIN. What language was spoken in the home?
Mr. RUBY. To our parents Yiddish, you would call it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your parents speak English?
Mr. RUBY. Very little; very few words.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you willing to make this statement that your
conversations with your parents were always in Yiddish?
Mr RUBY. No, no; I can’t say that because my father spoke a little
English.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about with your mother?
Mr. RUBY. My mother I would say in her conversations she threw in a
word here or there in English; about 95 percent was Yiddish. My father
picked up more English words because, in fact, he was working as a
carpenter, and being out among English-speaking people more than, more
so than my mother who was home all the time, he had an opportunity to
learn some English words.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when the children got older, the family continued to
live together, as I understand it, there was a home where all of the
unmarried children and the parents lived?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In that home up until the time that your mother died, did
you observe, were the dietary practices observed all the time?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; sure. Every Passover we changed the dishes, and so
on.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but that is just once a year. What about on a daily
basis, did you observe every day the dietary——
Mr. RUBY. Well, you don’t observe it every day.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, some homes do.
Mr. RUBY. I don’t understand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Some homes keep separate dishes for meat and dairy
products.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; we had separate dishes until my mother passed away.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the regularity of attending church services,
temple services, did you go every week to temple services?
Mr. RUBY. No, no; not all of us. I know I didn’t. My sisters did. My
sister did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which sister?
Mr. RUBY. Marion. My father did until he became ill, you know, and then
he passed away.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any resentment in the home toward the practices
that were maintained by your parents there, failure to converse
regularly in English and perhaps their old world habits?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t understand.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Which is common in all families, I think, in which the
practices that are observed in the home are not the kind of practices
that you see on television or in the movies. Was there resentment among
any of the children toward the fact that here was a home in which a
foreign language was spoken, and practices were observed which did
not appear to be the same practices as the people who were on top in
American society?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I would say so. However, my mother insisted that we
follow the lines of the Orthodox Jew.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of you object to that insistence by your mother?
Mr. RUBY. No; nothing because there wasn’t too much to object to,
because it was the same food. I mean there is really nothing—however,
if we would take the wrong utensil, you know, because there are two
separate ones, we would be bawled out for taking the wrong one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, Jack during the time that he was in Chicago lived
for various periods outside the home, didn’t he?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. For example, I believe he lived with either Sam Gordon or
Alex Gruber in a separate apartment in Chicago in the early thirties.
Do you recall that?
Mr. RUBY. I know he lived with Gruber but I don’t know how long.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Well——
Mr. RUBY. Because it was in the early thirties, I was going to high
school.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any particular reason why Jack did not want to
live with the family?
Mr. RUBY. None that I can remember. There may have been, but I may not
be, you know, I wasn’t aware of it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He also was away from Chicago from about 1933 to 1937.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think he went to ’Frisco to work there; yes. I think
he went there. I think my sister was there or he went first, I don’t
remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know his friend Leon Cooke?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; very well.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Leon Cooke of Jewish background?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you familiar with Jack’s activities with Leon Cooke
in the labor union?
Mr. RUBY. A little bit. I think I knew——
Mr. GRIFFIN. What can you tell us about that, what—how long did Jack
work in the union?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I know as far as I know, I think he helped organize it.
It was Leon Cooke’s idea. Leon Cooke was an attorney and his father,
Mr. Cooke, was a scrap iron and junk handler, and for some reason or
another of his own thinking he decided that it would be a good idea
to organize a union because the—although he was doing very well as an
attorney without it, the workers in this industry were being paid, I
think at that time, 10 cents or 15 cents an hour, and it was actually
slave wages practically, as you can easily understand, and so they
organized the union or how they go about it I don’t even know, but they
did, Leon Cooke and Jack helped organize it, but I think Leon did all
the legal work.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of anybody else who helped in the organizing
efforts?
Mr. RUBY. Even I went out once to hand out those flyers, you know,
“join the union.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you hand them out and what would you do?
Mr. RUBY. Well, they would come out from work and I would just hand it
to them, as they leave the plant, just hand it to them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever make any personal contacts with members, with
employees?
Mr. RUBY. No; never. I just——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other people that you know of who worked in
the union with Jack?
Mr. RUBY. I think my brother Hy worked for a little while in the union.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Sam work in the union?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t think so. I only went there on very rare occasions,
very rare. I may have been to one or two meetings in all. I didn’t get
paid for it either, just, you know, kicks just to hand out the flyers,
that is all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of any other people who were involved in the
union?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I know John Martin, he was the president.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He is the fellow who was killed?
Mr. RUBY. No; he shot Leon Cooke.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He shot Leon Cooke. Is John Martin still living?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I know there was another fellow but I can’t
think of his name. There was a fellow by the name—I can’t think of
their names. They had odd names. Of course, that goes back in the
thirties, I think, right in there somewhere. I don’t even remember
where it was.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Leon Cooke a fellow about your brother’s age?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think so.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So Jack would have been in the late twenties at the time
that he and Leon formed the union?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I don’t know what year it was even. I don’t
even remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. It was in the late thirties, wasn’t it.
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I really don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any girls that Jack dated?
Mr. RUBY. In Chicago?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. Offhand not even one because he was, as I said, 4 years older
than I was and we didn’t run around together. I know of the one he
went with in Dallas, which was, I think she was—I don’t know if she
testified at the trial or not.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Alice Nichols?
Mr. RUBY. Alice Nichols.
Mr. GRIFFIN. She is not a Jewish girl, is she?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did it seem to be Jack’s practice to get interested in
women who are, what do you call them, shiksas?
Mr. RUBY. No; I really don’t know because I don’t know too much. You
see he traveled in a different—I am trying to think. When he was going
to Marshall High School that is when you usually start going with
girls. I don’t recall those days because I was too young.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am interested in exploring with you, if you can
in a somewhat objective fashion, is some of the contrast between
evidence you have shown us with his obsession with the fact that he was
a Jew, and other indications that, for example, his dating girls who
were gentiles and his living outside of the home away from the Jewish
practices which might indicate that he had some desire to escape his
Jewish background. Did you see any evidence of that?
Mr. RUBY. No; that I wouldn’t—because believe it or not, when my mother
passed away and also my father, you know, we have to go say services,
we are supposed to say services for a year every day and I didn’t keep
it up, but he did.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack went to services after your——
Mr. RUBY. Mother died.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Every day?
Mr. RUBY. Every day as far as I know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was this temple that he attended services at?
Mr. RUBY. Well, there was one, I know, up——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were these temples in Chicago?
Mr. RUBY. One was in Chicago, I can’t think of the name.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Your mother died while Jack was still in Chicago. When was
that?
Mr. RUBY. 1944.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack was in the service?
Mr. RUBY. That is right.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know he did that?
Mr. RUBY. He told us he went to services. You can say services there
too as long as the chaplain——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he have to go before a rabbi or chaplain of some
sort?
Mr. RUBY. Really not necessarily; it is not—because they say if it
isn’t available, you can still say the prayer.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This could be something he could have done on his bunk,
his cot in the Army?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. There he had access to a chaplain though
because it wasn’t a large camp.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. When I say you don’t have access, I am thinking of overseas
where it might be a small unit, like where I was there wasn’t a Jewish
chaplain.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am trying to get at is this occurred while he was
in the service. In order for him to properly observe mourning for your
mother would he have had to have done something so that somebody else
would have to be aware he was doing this other than Jack simply telling
them. Would he have done something in his area where he lived or light
a candle or would he have gone to a chaplain or gone in some place and
prayed where people could have seen him. What would there have been
observed by other people?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. How can I answer that. I wasn’t with him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But you know what the requirements are of the Jewish faith
to properly observe mourning for people.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What would some of the things have been that Jack would
have had to have done?
Mr. RUBY. Just say the prayer, to read it out of the book or if you
know it from memory, by that time after a while you know it from memory.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And he could have repeated that to himself?
Mr. RUBY. It is possible. But if a rabbi or services are available that
is where you usually go. But if you are at a remote place where it
isn’t possible to have services then you can say it.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you actually recall Jack telling you that he was going
to services for your mother?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; definitely.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he tell you that he went?
Mr. RUBY. He just said he was carrying on the services but I don’t
remember now. This happened 20 years ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am trying to get at is your not saying that you
recall him telling you he went to a chapel or to a synagogue or a
temple.
Mr. RUBY. No; all he said was that he said services.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.
Mr. RUBY. But as to where I didn’t think it was at that time necessary
to question him.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any other examples of this concern with his
religious heritage?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I told you about he read all the books or as many books
as he could on the Jewish atrocities, whatever you might call them.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He did this down in Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. He did this in Dallas that I know, my sister told me. In
fact, when I went there he had several books.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind, do you remember the names of the books?
Mr. RUBY. He had one called “Eva” and “Exodus”, and another one
there that he was reading, and then he would give them away after he
finished. I can’t think of the other one. It was still there while I
was there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When was this that you observed “Eva” and “Exodus”?
Mr. RUBY. Right after the incident I went down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. So after the incident he was reading “Eva” and
“Exodus”?
Mr. RUBY. No, no; it was before. I saw the books after but he had been
reading them before because they were in my sister’s apartment. She had
taken everything from his apartment.
Mr. GRIFFIN. So it is your understanding that he had certain religious
type books?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Books on Jews in the apartment that he was living in?
Mr. RUBY. Right; definitely. In fact, he went out of his way as I
stated before, to go and listen to lectures at the synagogue on the
Jewish problem and the atrocities in Germany, and they showed films,
real detailed films on what actually took place and he made it a point
to be there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When did this occur?
Mr. RUBY. This happened before the incident.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I don’t know. But my brother Sam told me about
this just last week that when his mother-in-law, his wife’s mother, was
down in Dallas, Jack insisted she come along to see these films and
hear the lecture.
You see, as I said, I have to get these, some of these things through a
third party because I am in Detroit.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure, sure. I want to get them straight as to where you
got them so we can follow them out.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall, this is on another subject, that at one
time when you were questioned about why Jack and you had a falling
out with respect to Earl Products, that you stated that Jack was not
spending full time on the business, and that was one of the reasons?
Mr. RUBY. Well, we didn’t think so. This was Sam’s and my opinion.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what was happening?
Mr. RUBY. Well, we wanted him to sell our products that we were
manufacturing, and he was, seemed to be always getting involved with
selling somebody else’s product. Of course, there was a commission
involved or whatever it was, but I didn’t—we didn’t approve of it. We
wanted to push our products and so, of course, he and Sam had a real
runout or whatever you call it and then we finally decided to buy him
out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What other products was he selling?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I think he was selling costume jewelry. Well, we don’t
manufacture that. We wanted him to devote his entire interest into the
company.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would costume jewelry, could it be considered a companion
line for anything you were selling. Would he go into the same stores to
sell costume jewelry?
Mr. RUBY. You possibly could, you possibly could, but it was our
opinion that he should devote all of his time to our products.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s responsibility in Earl Products?
Mr. RUBY. He was actually the sales manager.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have employees working in there?
Mr. RUBY. I was just going to add, he didn’t have any, he was the only
one.
Mr. GRIFFIN. He managed himself?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; and he was a good salesman, too.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this——
Mr. RUBY. Anyhow, with leading too we weren’t hitting it off so good,
and my sister Eva was asking him to come down to Dallas, so between
everything we finally decided to buy him out and he took his money and
went down there.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did his sales activities require him to spend most of his
time outside of the place of business?
Mr. RUBY. Of course; oh, yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of your sales were on a mail-order basis and how
much was this direct selling that Jack may have been involved in?
Mr. RUBY. Well, at this time, the time he was handling the sales, there
was very little mail order. It was mostly accounts that he had secured
or we had in one way or another.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What area?
Mr. RUBY. Like Mar-Din.
Mr. GRIFFIN. That was in St. Louis, wasn’t it?
Mr. RUBY. No, no; in Chicago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. In Chicago?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he travel outside the Chicago area?
Mr. RUBY. Not too much; not too much, if I recall. I don’t recall. I
don’t think he traveled too much.
I think, now that I think of it, that was one of our problems. We
wanted him to go down or go out of town, to Milwaukee or any of
the other cities, even close by, and definitely St. Louis where we
eventually sold Katz Drug which is a big and good account for us and
they turned out to be a pretty fair account. And anyhow as I said one
thing led to another. Eva was wanting him in Dallas and he wasn’t
getting along too well with us so it was decided to buy him out.
Mr. GRIFFIN. The only other topic I want to cover with you now is the
circumstances behind you changing your name from Rubenstein to Ruby.
Did Mr. Hubert cover that with you?
Mr. RUBY. Sort of. Well, first off, there are two reasons. First of
all, we were, I think, very conscious of the Jewish name of Rubenstein,
and we had worked for another Jewish fellow who we all looked up to,
an elderly fellow who had been very successful in business and his
name was Stanley Eisenberg and he said, “When you send out mail orders
you shouldn’t use a Jewish name because of the—some people won’t order
even if they can use the merchandise,” and anyhow he suggested we use
a different name, and so we finally decided since they were calling us
Ruby anyhow, with that in mind, and business reasons, that is, and we
finally decided to—Sam and I did first, you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You did.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; and Jack did it down in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How much time elapsed between when you and Sam changed
your name and Jack changed his?
Mr. RUBY. Gee, I don’t know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever discuss with Jack the reasons for his
changing his name?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea why he changed his name?
Mr. RUBY. No; it never came up. We never discussed it as far as I can
remember, we just never discussed that.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is my understanding correct then that the changing of your
name and Sam’s name was directly tied with your activity in connection
with Earl Products, and thus since Hyman didn’t have any connection
with Earl Products and Jack didn’t have any connection with Earl
Products at the time you two changed your name, why there was no reason
for those two at that time to change their name?
Mr. RUBY. Well, Hyman never changed his name, as you know.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I know that.
Mr. RUBY. I really don’t know the reason for Jack. He may have had the
same reason but since he did it there, and we never brought it up it
just never was brought into our conversations, that I can remember. We
may have—at that time it was nothing important to us, and it happened
along about 15–16 years ago, I think. I think we changed ours in 1947,
I don’t even remember.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we can finish this off here now. I want to hand
you what has been marked as “Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition
of Earl Ruby, Exhibit No. 3.” This is a copy of a report which was
prepared by two FBI agents, White and Lee of an interview they had with
you on November 25 in Chicago, which consists of two pages. The pages
are numbered at the bottom 171 and 172. I want to hand it to you and
ask you if you had a chance to read that?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I have.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any changes or corrections that you think ought
to be made in that?
Mr. RUBY. Well, here in the first paragraph it says, “In 1946 his
brothers Jack Ruby” I think, I am not sure of the date. I think it was
1947, and Jack didn’t change his name when we did. He changed it later
in Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let’s read into the record the part you are
talking about. In the second paragraph you are talking about the
sentence which reads, “He said that in 1946 his brothers Jack Ruby and
Sam Ruby along with himself legally changed their names from Rubenstein
to Ruby for business purposes.”
Now the correct date of your changing your name is when?
Mr. RUBY. I think it was 1947.
Mr. GRIFFIN. And in any event Jack did not change his name at the same
time that you did?
Mr. RUBY. That is correct.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay. Take your time and refer to them—you have notes,
refer to them.
Mr. RUBY. Down here in the sixth paragraph it says, “following military
service Jack returned to Chicago where he resided for several months
and was not employed to his, Earl Ruby’s knowledge,” that is not
correct.
When Jack came back from the service we immediately took him in as a
partner in Earl Products Co., so that is wrong. And then they said
about 1946. I think in 1947 he went to Dallas. However, I am not sure
of that. You probably have that date.
I see on this next to the last paragraph where it says Earl Ruby
stated he could give no reason why Jack Ruby shot Oswald except Jack
is highly—is a highly emotional type and may have thought he was doing
everyone a great service, I don’t remember that, the exact words. I
don’t think I would have made that statement completely. I mean——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some feeling at the time that Jack may have
thought he was doing a service to the country?
Mr. RUBY. To tell you the truth, I was so upset that I may have made
the statement but I am not sure. You know I was—when was this, this was
the next day, right, Monday?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. That is it for this one. Some of them are almost exact
duplicates.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked as
“Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby Exhibit 4.”
And that purports to be an interview that Mr. Robichau and Mr. Wilson
of the FBI had with you on November 25 in Southfield, Mich. It consists
of six pages and they are numbered consecutively at the bottom 173 to
178.
Have you had a chance to read that over?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you indicate what changes or corrections should be
made thereon?
Mr. RUBY. Well, in the fourth paragraph I am not certain as to whether
my father was born in Russia and as to whether my mother was born in
Poland. I think my older sisters and brothers know more about that than
I do.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the experience of your mother and father in Europe a
topic which was discussed very often in the home?
Mr. RUBY. My father’s experiences were, in telling about the hardships
of it and the persecutions of the Jews.
I have one other correction here.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. In the fifth paragraph it states here that Jack was employed
by Earl Products after he first left the service. He wasn’t employed.
He was a part owner. It clarifies it in the next sentence, however.
Now, on page 2, the third paragraph this states here that I may have
said that A. Weinberg was a fourth removed cousin, but I find that that
is not so. She never was a cousin of ours.
And then on page 5 in the first paragraph it states that from 1939 to
1942 I was employed as a carpenter at building the barracks at Great
Lakes. The date is incorrect. I worked there from, on in the year of
1942.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you want to take a pen and cross that off and
correct it properly and then initial it, initial your deletion there?
Mr. RUBY. In the last sentence on page 6 it states that Earl and his
three brothers had their names legally changed from Rubenstein to Ruby
during 1947. That is incorrect. It should be Earl and Sam and Earl’s
wife, Marge. Shall I change it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; why don’t you?
Why don’t you sign that on the first page then. Sign Exhibit No. 4.
I will give you Exhibit No. 3 and ask you to sign that.
One other thing that occurred to me before we go on here. We have
obtained various birth records and so forth, and in trying to
identify which record pertains to which child, I noticed that your
parents—actually your given names were Hebrew names.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is my understanding correct that your given Hebrew name
was Isadore?
Mr. RUBY. No; actually I was, the name listed was, Izzy, on my birth
record. Is that what you are referring to?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. Izzy, I-z-z-y, that is me.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what the given names of your various sisters
are? Could you relate those to us?
Mr. RUBY. No; I couldn’t. Eileen I think was Ida, I think. The others I
don’t know. You have to talk to one of the older members of the family.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Incidentally, also in Exhibit No. 3, I noticed that you
had, somebody has put some penciled mark numbers, were those your marks
and did you wish to comment on those?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, it is just an error there—that should be scrap iron and
junk handlers.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, it is corrected for the record, you just state
it for the record.
Mr. RUBY. Here is a repetition of that other one where it says I stated
he was doing every one a great service. I don’t remember saying that
and I am just not sure.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Let me hand you what has been marked as Exhibit No. 5 and has been
further marked “Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl
Ruby” which purports to be a copy of an interview with you also at
South Field, Mich., on November 26, 1963, with special agents Robichau
and Wilson.
The exhibit consists of six pages, numbered in sequence 11 through 16.
I will hand it to you and ask you if you have any corrections that you
want to make in that?
Mr. RUBY. Here again on page 5 it states I worked at the building—the
barracks at Great Lakes from 1942. It was only during 1942. Shall I
change it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; if you wish.
Do you want to sign Exhibit No. 5?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked for
identification as “Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of
Earl Ruby Exhibit No. 6.” This is a copy of an interview which Agent
Robichau purports to have had with you on November 27 in Detroit, Mich.
Would you want to look at that and tell us if there are any changes or
corrections that you would make?
Mr. RUBY. No; no corrections. Shall I sign it?
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, fine.
I will hand you what has been marked for identification as “Exhibit
No. 7, Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby.” This
purports to be a copy of an interview report prepared by Special Agent
George Parfet of the FBI. The interview took place with you on November
28 in Chicago. It consists of two pages and it is numbered at the
bottom pages 15 and 16.
Would you want to look at that and tell us if there are any changes or
corrections that you would care to make?
Mr. RUBY. Here on page 2 it mentioned that I had never heard of Jack
being mentally ill or depressed. However, I know he was depressed
several years ago.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know that at the time you gave that interview
report, gave that interview?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I knew he was depressed but I didn’t understand it
completely. I didn’t know that it was called depression at that time.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How did it appear, how would you have described it at that
time?
Mr. RUBY. Well, that he wouldn’t shave and he wouldn’t bathe, and he
wouldn’t go out, but at that time I didn’t know what it was called.
But after thinking it over, when he came up to Chicago once, he was
terribly depressed, as I stated before.
Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you have described him at the time you saw him—
what would you have said was the matter with him?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I was just—let me see what words I can use to describe
it—I would have said he was disgusted, not knowing that actually he was
depressed until I really learned what the word “depressed” means.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was his attitude one more of hostility or belligerence
toward what had happened rather than one of submission?
Mr. RUBY. No; it was one of submission. He wouldn’t go any places as I
stated. He didn’t want to wash or clean himself up and I had to more or
less force him to get in the shower and things of that sort.
Mr. GRIFFIN. What about the things he said, though. Were these—you
used the term “disgust”—did he speak in the manner of someone who was
disgusted would speak?
Mr. RUBY. Well, he didn’t even have much to say, if I recall. He didn’t
even have much to say. He tried to keep to himself.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he live at that time?
Mr. RUBY. I mean in my presence. In other words, he would go in another
room or sit in a chair and just sit there without making—just thinking
to himself about whatever was going through his mind. He was listless.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you married at that time?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, I was married.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack come and live with you?
Mr. RUBY. No, no.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he live at the time?
Mr. RUBY. He came to the family and that is where I came to see him.
In fact, he was so depressed that I took him to try to cheer him up, I
had to go to New York for a business trip, a show that was taking place
there and I took him for a ride, we were driving anyhow, and I thought
it would pep him up a little bit, you know, to go on a trip. But it
didn’t help much.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your attitude toward him this time one of sympathy or
couldn’t you figure out what was eating this guy?
Mr. RUBY. No; I would say he was. I just thought he was disgusted with
things, little realizing that he was in a state of depression.
Mr. GRIFFIN. But were you sympathetic toward him at the time?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; as I said, that is why I took him on the trip. I
tried to encourage him. I told him “Maybe we can find something for
you to get into,” as I mentioned before, “Some business we can get you
started in or something.”
However, he decided, as I stated before, to go back to Dallas.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever tell you why he decided to go back to Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall, he may have, but I can’t recall just now.
I see another, the last paragraph on page 2. I didn’t even remember
that conversation with the agent.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you read the paragraph?
Mr. RUBY. It states here, “Earl Ruby was specifically asked regarding
his residence in New Haven, Conn., in 1940. He has stated that he had
never been in New Haven, Conn., in his life and in that period was
engaged in the drycleaning business on Cicero Avenue in Chicago.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that statement a correct statement?
Mr. RUBY. When we were selling we used to travel the east coast but I
would have only been there—I don’t remember being there, but if I had
been there, I would have been there only for a day. I think he asked
me if I lived there for any length of time, if I recall, but I am not
sure. I don’t recall this——
Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the drycleaning business on Cicero Avenue at
that time?
Mr. RUBY. As far as I know, yes; I had an independent cleaning route
at that time. I used to call on friends and pick up their cleaning and
deliver it right to their home.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t operate a cleaning plant?
Mr. RUBY. No, no; but this is where I worked out of. Maybe he just cut
it short. I brought my cleaning to this plant in Chicago, on Cicero
Avenue, in Chicago, they cleaned it and charged me a wholesale price
and I added on a profit, of course.
Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what has been marked as “Exhibit 8,
Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby.” It consists
of two pages numbered 210 and 211 and purports to be a copy of a report
which Agent George Parfet prepared with respect to that interview he
had with you on November 28 at South Field, Mich.
Mr. RUBY. I didn’t sign the other one.
(Earl Ruby Exhibits Nos. 5, 6, 7, and 8 were marked for identification.)
Mr. GRIFFIN. I will state for the record then, you have just signed
Exhibit No. 7, and if you will look at Exhibit No. 8, tell us if there
are any changes or corrections you would make in that.
Mr. RUBY. Here again it is almost a duplicate of the previous, what do
you call it again, number?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Interview report.
Mr. RUBY. What is this?
Mr. GRIFFIN. That is Exhibit No. 8, and this is Exhibit No. 7 that I
have here.
Mr. RUBY. The last paragraph again as stated in the previous one. They
are almost identical.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; it looks like they are identical copies and they were
just included in different places in our materials.
Let me hand it to you then and let me ask you to sign it.
Mr. RUBY. Sign it anyhow?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; Exhibit No. 8.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; Exhibit No. 8.
I finally hand you what has been marked for identification as “Exhibit
No. 9, Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, deposition of Earl Ruby.”
This is a copy of a report which Agent Robichau made with you of an
interview he had on December 2, 1963, at Detroit, Mich.
Would you tell us if you have any additions or corrections or changes
to make in that?
Mr. RUBY. No; this is correct. That she is not related in any way to
our family.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.
Now, that concludes all the questions that I have, and I presume that
Mr. Hubert has or he would have come back in.
Are there any topics that we haven’t covered that you feel that we
ought to—is there anything further that you would like to say? You have
got the floor.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think, and this took place at the trial, and after
the first policeman had testified as to statements made by my brother
Jack, that evening when I saw Jack, he told me that he is going to the
electric chair.
He said because he never made any of those statements, and now he knows
what Wade has in mind, because if Wade wants to send you to the chair
he can, and he always does, and that is why he has the record that he
has.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who the first policeman was who testified?
Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t. And he told me on several occasions that he
never made the statements the police testified that he did make, and in
fact, if the record will be checked, it is proved that the statement
that Dean made couldn’t have been true—Officer Dean.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Why do you say that?
Mr. RUBY. Because at the time when he said he had been talking—that
Jack made a statement, Jack, he is the one who said Jack told him 2
days before at 4 o’clock, I think the time was, that he stated, that
Jack told him that he was going to get Oswald.
At that time Jack was at home with Eva, so Jack couldn’t have made that
statement to him, and, of course, this has been brought out in the
petition or motion for a new trial, so it is in the official record, so
to say.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when Jack talked to you the first night after, or
after the first police officer testified, was that first police officer
Sergeant Dean, or was that another police officer?
Mr. RUBY. No; that was another police officer. Dean was the last police
officer, if I recall correctly.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack tell you what he did say?
Mr. RUBY. No; but he said he never made those statements.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack——
Mr. RUBY. He repeated it several times on different occasions. He
said, “I never made that—any of those statements and I know how Wade
operates. He is going to send me to the chair. Now I know what he has
got in mind.”
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let the record reflect that I am going to give you a copy
which we have made of your three-page statement which you have entered
into the record and which is marked as Exhibit No. 2, and also a copy
of Exhibit No. 1 which we have marked.
Mr. RUBY. You are giving that back to me because I have a copy of
Exhibit No. 1.
Mr. GRIFFIN. You can have that copy back.
Mr. RUBY. OK.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any other matters that you think ought to be
covered that we haven’t covered?
Mr. RUBY. No; I can’t think of any. I think we have covered them all.
Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you one last question which I started to ask
some hours ago.
That is this: Between the time you first saw Jack in Dallas, and the
last time you saw him in Dallas, what changes did you see in him, if
any?
Mr. RUBY. I think as I stated, he lost probably 25 or 30 pounds, and
he couldn’t seem to grasp or understand conversations or questions. I
have talked to him many times on the phone since then, and he still
thinks—in fact as of now, he don’t even think I am alive. He thinks
they killed me and my family, my children.
Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first saw him in Dallas did he have these—did
you have any trouble communicating with him, did he show any lack of
understanding when you first saw him?
Mr. RUBY. No, no; it wasn’t—yes; I must change that. There was a slight
hesitancy on his part to understand questions that I put to him. He
would shake his head when I would ask him questions sometimes and as
though he didn’t understand, and these were just ordinary questions of
routine matters, just about the trial or Belli. We discussed Belli, and
he said, even at the beginning there he said, “They don’t talk to me.
Why don’t they talk to me longer,” and yet Belli was there for hours.
Mr. GRIFFIN. This wasn’t the very first time you saw him. This was on
an occasion later?
Mr. RUBY. That is right. It had to be later.
Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. I have nothing more. And if you have nothing
more I want to thank you very much for taking this time for us.
Mr. RUBY. I hope I can help you and I hope you can help us.
Mr. GRIFFIN. We want to assemble all the facts that we possibly can and
prepare a report that will be as fair and as impartial as can be.
Mr. RUBY. You want me to check on that professor at Northwestern
University, correct?
Mr. GRIFFIN. And if you would give us the names of those employees.
Mr. RUBY. The list I have on that. I can possibly get the information
as to where my brother received the psychiatric treatment when he was
about 10 years old. Do you want me to send that to you?
Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would get us that we would appreciate it, yes.
Mr. RUBY. Shall I mail it just here the same address?
Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.
TESTIMONY OF MRS. EVA GRANT
The testimony of Mrs. Eva Grant was taken at 3:30 p.m., on May 28,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Mrs. Eva Grant was
accompanied by her attorney, Phil Burleson.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mrs. Eva Grant. Mrs. Grant is
represented by Mr. Phil Burleson, her attorney.
Mrs. Grant, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel on the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive
Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, issued by President Johnson,
the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure
adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with the Executive
order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn
deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of
this Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon
the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to
you, Mrs. Grant, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what
facts you know about the death of Oswald, and the life and activities
of your brother, Jack Ruby, and any other pertinent facts that you may
know about the general inquiry.
Now, Mrs. Grant, I believe that you appear here today by a request made
to you by a letter from Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff
for the President’s Commission. I ask you now if you have received that
letter?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you state to us, please, what the date of the letter
is?
Mrs. GRANT. May 22.
Mr. HUBERT. And it was received by you on what date?
Mrs. GRANT. On the following date. I think, what is today—Thursday? I
know I called here, it seems to me, Monday or Tuesday now.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, you have no objection to the taking of this
deposition at the present time?
Mrs. GRANT. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, will you rise and raise your right hand so that I may
administer the oath?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. GRANT. I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name, please, ma’am?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I go under the name of Eva L. Grant.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell the first name?
Mrs. GRANT. Eva (spelling) E-v-a and “L.” Let me explain something to
you—I married a man who used the name Grant, but the name, which you
will notice, is Granovsky, but I married him under that name and I used
that name for at least 25 years. I married in 1936, so you figure it
out.
Mr. HUBERT. And how old are you, Mrs. Grant?
Mrs. GRANT. Fifty-five.
Mr. HUBERT. And where do you reside?
Mrs. GRANT. 3929 Rawlins, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you at present occupied?
Mrs. GRANT. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, in the course of this investigation I hope to conduct
it in this way, that I will question you concerning certain segments or
blocks or questions that will relate to a subject.
Under the rules of the proceedings your counsel may make any objection
at anytime and under the rules also he could ask you any questions that
he wants to at the end of the whole hearing, but I think, for ease of
handling, it would be better if he asked you his questions after we
have finished a particular area or block. I will try to indicate to
your counsel when I am passing from one to the other, so that we can
stop there and let him ask the questions as to that block, but I invite
you, Mr. Burleson, if I should overlook and pass on to the next block,
and it is obvious to you that I am, will you please interrupt and we
will then have your questions relative to that block, so that the whole
of the matter will be together in that way.
I think that perhaps the first thing I should like for you to do
is identify the statements that were made by you to the FBI in
several interviews that they had of you. Now, for the purpose of
identification, first I am marking these exhibits as follows, to
wit: “Dallas, Tex., May 28, 1964, Exhibit 1 to the deposition of Eva
Grant.” I have signed my name to that and placed my initials on each
of the subsequent pages in the lower right-hand corner. That Exhibit
No. 1 purports to be the report of an interview of you by FBI Agents
Jack Peden and Gaston Thompson on November 25, 1963, consisting of
seven pages, and I have previously handed this Exhibit 1 to you and
your attorney with the request that you read it and make any notes you
wish, because what we want to do now is to state whether this Exhibit 1
represents a correct version of your understanding of the facts, and I
will now ask you—have you read Exhibit 1?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I have.
Mr. HUBERT. With the aid and assistance of your counsel, would you
tell us please, ma’am, whether Exhibit 1 is correct, pointing out any
incorrections—things that are incorrect—anything that is omitted?
Mrs. GRANT. I would have to see that again; may I?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, ma’am.
Mr. BURLESON. Mr. Hubert, I might make a suggestion here since I have
gone over it with her, possibly I could take her now and go into these
areas?
Mr. HUBERT. That will be a good way to do it because my general
question is whether or not it is a completely correct document, and,
therefore, to the extent it is not, I think it would be best if you
would take her over to show that.
Mrs. GRANT. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. May I suggest that you use a system of quoting the sentence
to which you address yourself so it is clearly identified?
Mr. BURLESON. Mrs. Grant, on page 1 of this—it is correct to the best
of your present memory, is it not?
Off the record.
(A discussion between Counsel Hubert and Counsel Burleson off the
record.)
Mrs. GRANT (reading instrument referred to). Let me go ahead and say
this now—you do want me to say it—when Jack looked at that Weissman ad,
it seems to me this is what he said——
Mr. BURLESON. Wait, are you making reference to a specific sentence in
here, or are you adding to something?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I didn’t say here that he called. I think he was over
there. I’m almost sure, but I may have said it—will you tell him about
me? I was so sick—I mean—I was——
Mr. BURLESON. Well, we will get into that in just a minute. Is there
anything in this—on this first page that is incorrect as you now view
things?
Mrs. GRANT (reading). Well, you see, right here, “he said he
contacted”—he was in the Dallas Morning News when the President was
assassinated. He was placing his ads and he was in the building from
11 until, maybe, at 1:30, and that should have been put in here and I
thought I told him that.
Mr. BURLESON. Well, let’s refer to that—on this last sentence on page
1, it starts out with, “She stated that Jack Ruby told her that he was
at the Dallas Morning News which ran his advertisements and asked them.
‘Where in the hell do you get off taking an ad like that? Are you money
hungry?’”
What do you want to say about that?
Mrs. GRANT. There was a fellow there that takes his ads and his name
is Newman. I think his name is John Newman, and Jack was in that area
where this all takes place and the telephones were ringing, and Jack
says people were canceling their ads, you know, complete commercial
ads and subscriptions and the place was a madhouse. He was in the
Dallas Morning News—he went there, you see——
Mr. BURLESON. To this statement, though, that I have just quoted—your
answer is what?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes: but he did call me from there—he was there.
Mr. BURLESON. That morning?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right—he was in the Dallas Morning News and John
knew——
Mr. BURLESON. So, when you use the word “contacted”——
Mrs. GRANT. They used that word—that isn’t even my word.
Mr. BURLESON. He had some contact with them is really my
question—whether by being there in person or by telephone?
Mrs. GRANT. He bawled John Newman out.
Mr. BURLESON. All right; I think that clarifies that.
Mrs. GRANT. He said, “What in the hell?” And he says, “Well, I take
orders from my superiors,” that’s what Jack said.
Mr. BURLESON. Is that the only change or the only thing that you want
to add on the first page?
Mrs. GRANT (reads). Now, you see, let me explain this—he didn’t talk to
the Times Herald until later in the day, as far as I know.
Mr. BURLESON. All right: let me ask you this—you are now talking about,
in the second paragraph, starting with, “She advised that he told
her he had called the Times Herald Newspaper in Dallas and they had
advised him that they had turned down and refused to accept the same
advertisement.” What about that?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, it seemed to be later in the day when all the
commotion had died down and——
Mr. BURLESON. Later on Friday?
Mrs. GRANT. The same Friday, and if I know him, he probably was using
the Dallas Morning News phone because he didn’t leave there until 1:30.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, is there anything else you want to revise or change on
page 1?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I would say they were at—you know, they came with
that ad and they turned it down and that’s about it. It’s in there.
Mr. BURLESON. Is there anything else on page 1?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, that part there that he contacted——
Mr. BURLESON. Well, we have already gone over that.
Mrs. GRANT. He was in the Dallas Morning News when all this took place.
It was the greatest commotion in history in that office, and he was
crying, and he was standing against the wall, and he said there were
people——
Mr. BURLESON. All right; is there anything else though?
Mrs. GRANT. No.
Mr. BURLESON. Off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Burleson and the witness, Mrs. Grant.)
Mr. BURLESON. Now, on the record. On page 2, Mrs. Grant, are there
some changes or revisions that you might want to make in connection
with that? I direct your attention specifically to this statement, “He
informed that early Thursday morning, November 21, 1963, Jack Ruby, as
was his custom, placed advertisements in both Dallas papers concerning
the entertainment to be offered at the Carousel and Vegas nightclubs,
Dallas, Texas, which clubs he had an interest in.” Now, in reference to
that, what do you want to add in reference to that? Was that actually
the morning of the 22d after midnight of the 21st?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, there are many weeks out of the year he would go in
on—which is Friday morning after 2:30 in the morning and it seemed to
me this was an unusual week. I have been away from the Vegas Club which
I usually take care of, but he went to the Vegas Club to pick up money
and he was on the phone half of the night, he said, calling for a band.
Mr. BURLESON. But this date——
Mrs. GRANT. So, he never got that—that’s the wrong date.
Mr. BURLESON. That date really should be early Friday morning, November
22, 1963?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. Which would have been following Thursday. All right. Now,
directing your attention——
Mrs. GRANT. Can I add in over here something. When he was at my
apartment Friday the phone rang and Andy, who is our bartender, said,
“Jack, call Don Safran.”
Mr. BURLESON. Just a minute, we are coming to that, but I want to
direct your attention now to the next statement after the one I just
read. “She advised that after President Kennedy was assassinated
on November 22, 1963, he called the newspapers to change the
advertisements to show that the club would be closed Friday, Saturday
and Sunday, November 22d, 23d, and 24th, 1963.” Would you care to
explain that just a little bit?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I heard him call the Dallas Morning News, because
there was a paper coming out at 10 o’clock at night and it seemed to me
that they said it was too late—the Dallas news—you know how it comes
out?
Mr. BURLESON. The first edition?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; but he said, anyway, put it in Friday, Saturday, and
Sunday, and I heard——
Mr. BURLESON. And it was on the afternoon of November 22d?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. BURLESON. That he called from your place?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. BURLESON. He called both of the papers?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. Then, he called the Times Herald, but in
between this, it seems that Andy called, who was in charge of the
Carousel Club and he said, “Call Don Saffran.”
Mr. BURLESON. All right. Now, we are going to get onto that but is that
all you wanted to say about what we have just talked about?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. The next immediate following statement says, “She said
that Don Saffran (PH) a newspaper reporter for the Dallas Times Herald,
called him and wanted to know if he was sure,” and I am continuing on
page 3, “he was not going to operate those clubs on any of those three
days. He pointed out that some of the other clubs apparently were not
going to be closed for even one night.
“When Ruby heard that the other clubs were not going to be closed, he
became quite upset and asked Don how anyone with any kind of conscience
could dance and have a good time after the President had been killed.
He ended up by telling Don that he did not care what anyone else did,
that he was going to close for those three days.”
And that is the end of those several sentences. What do you want to add
in your deposition about that?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, as I said, Andy called him and he called Don and
he says, “I’m going to close tonight—tonight.” And this is what Don
says, “Are you going to be closed Saturday and Sunday?” I don’t know
what Jack said, I’ll be honest, at that time, but Jack—there was about
a 3-minute hesitation and he says, “I’m calling him back,” and this
is what I heard him say—he said, “Don this is Jack Ruby.” He said,
“Listen, I will be closed for three days—tonight, Friday, Saturday, and
Sunday,” and he says, “I don’t care when the other clubs close,” and he
says, “We’re broke anyway so—”. In other words, he felt he can’t get
any worse off than he is—it isn’t that he makes a million dollars—I
mean, that was his attitude.
Mr. BURLESON. The rest of page 3, the following three paragraphs on
page 3 appear to be correct; is that right?
Mrs. GRANT. But I wanted to clear this—you see, this wasn’t put in.
Mr. BURLESON. Well, let me ask you this: We are now referring to
the first full or complete paragraph on page 3, which says, “Mrs.
Grant displayed a page from the Dallas Morning News, dated Saturday,
November 23d, 1963, in Section 1, Page 19, containing a one column ad
approximately four inches in length, stating that the Carousel Club on
Main Street, Dallas, would be closed Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.”
What do you want to say about that?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I understand the early edition didn’t have it yet.
Mr. BURLESON. All right. In reference to the next paragraph, it says,
“Mrs. Grant recalled that on the day of the President’s assassination,
November 22, 1963, Jack Ruby telephoned her at least eight times and
made three personal visits to her apartment,”—what correction or change
do you want to make?
Mrs. GRANT. I think he came twice—one time early in the day and once
later in the afternoon with the groceries.
Mr. BURLESON. So, where you said “three times”——
Mrs. GRANT. It was only two times.
Mr. BURLESON. You think now that it was only two times?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. The rest of that paragraph appears to be correct?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. The next paragraph on page 3 appears to be correct?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. A continuation of the last paragraph on page 3 and on
page 4, does it appear to be correct?
Mrs. GRANT (read). Could I add something here?
Mr. BURLESON. All right, in the last sentence of the first paragraph,
at the top of the page, the statement appears, “She stated that
he discussed sending flowers to the place near the spot where the
President was assassinated and she feels sure that he did have flowers
delivered to that spot?”
Mrs. GRANT. Well, we had a regular florist, called “Your Florist,”
but I was in the hospital and he sent dried up, thrown out flowers
that he charged, you know, a large amount of money for. I told him to
get another florist, but he didn’t. He thinks he didn’t anyway—we are
almost sure he didn’t.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, directing your attention to the first complete
paragraph on page 4, which says, “Mrs. Grant informed that Jack Ruby
was in her apartment on November 22d, 1963, from approximately 5:30
p.m. until approximately 7:15 p.m. and then he dressed and went to the
synagogue for prayers.” What correction or addition do you want to make
to that?
Mrs. GRANT. It was much earlier than 5:30—more like 4:30 at that
time. You see, he was there earlier in the day, but I don’t remember
whether it was much earlier—I think he came before he even went to the
newspaper office.
Mr. BURLESON. “Somewhere around 4:30” should be “around 5:30”?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; and he went home to dress. You see, he didn’t live at
my place.
Mr. BURLESON. All right; 7:15 is about right?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. BURLESON. Then he dressed—he went home to dress from your place
before he went to the synagogue?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; but I want to tell you. He looked so bad and he was so
much a broken man and more confused and I really said something to this
effect to him, I said, “Do you think you are able to drive?” He says,
“Yes,” but instead of him going home, he went to Dealey Plaza and he
was there sometime, because he didn’t get home until much later, and he
didn’t get to the synagogue until almost all of the services were over,
but he didn’t have any idea about time.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, as to this next paragraph on page 4, does it appear
to be correct as written?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, in the case that he told me that he took what Larry——
Mr. BURLESON. And there are some other things written, but what is
written there, does that appear to be correct?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes. [Reading.]
Mr. BURLESON. Let me go off the record just a second.
(Discussion between Mr. Burleson and the witness, Mrs. Grant, off the
record.)
Mr. BURLESON. Is this what is right, here?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; that is correct—he said he was up every night.
Mr. BURLESON. Is this correct, then?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, as to the last paragraph on page 4 which starts on
page 4, does that appear to be correct?
Mrs. GRANT (reading). Yes; he called Stanley from my home, and that’s
why I know, and they were talking about these signs and he showed me——
Mr. BURLESON. Just read this, though, and tell me if this is correct.
Mrs. GRANT (reading). Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. All right. Now, as to the first complete paragraph on
page 5, would you read that and see if that appears to be correct?
Mrs. GRANT (reading). You know, I don’t know if he was there twice
Saturday or not.
Mr. BURLESON. Where?
Mrs. GRANT. At my apartment; you see, he was there from 3:30 on to 8
o’clock that evening—I know he spent about 4 hours.
Mr. BURLESON. That’s on the 23d?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. Whether he was there earlier, I don’t know. I
know Friday he was there twice.
Mr. BURLESON. But to the best of your recollection and remembrance at
this time, this is correct?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he was there from close to about—I would say 3½ to 4
or 4 hours and 15 minutes for a Saturday.
Mr. BURLESON. And you say that it appears to be correct, the whole
paragraph?
Mrs. GRANT. Now, this is what I want to get clear.
Mr. BURLESON. All right. Let me read something into the record. With
the statement “She stated that from the remarks made by Ruby during
the 10:20 p.m. telephone conversation, that she gained the impression
that Ruby had been at his residence, 223 South Ewing (Apartment 207),
Dallas, Texas, since a short time after leaving her place around 8 p.m.
the same date.” Now, what do you want to say about that?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I don’t know if it was Friday or Saturday. He said
he was going to the station, and I’ll be honest with you, I didn’t
question—radio, television, or police station because it didn’t make a
bit of difference to me. I was too gone.
Mr. BURLESON. But that does not have anything to do with this, does it?
Mrs. GRANT. He didn’t mention what station—he mentioned a station, but
I don’t know if he went to the radio station, television, or police
station, and I don’t think—it seems to me it was on a Friday instead of
Saturday.
Mr. BURLESON. But the statement, though, is correct as far as you know?
It may not be complete, but it is correct as far as you know?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, here it says on Saturday, but it is not Saturday.
I think it was Friday after the synagogue. I think he called me, and
he was in Phil’s, and he was ordering sandwiches, and I think it was
Friday. I’ll tell you the truth, I was so confused that night I don’t
know how I got anything out of him.
Mr. BURLESON. All right. Let me direct your attention to the next
paragraph: “At 11:30 p.m. that same night, he called and told her he
had been at the station where he had talked to Henry Wade, the district
attorney, Dallas County, Tex., and Russ Knight of radio station KLIF,
Dallas, Tex.”
Mrs. GRANT. And that should have been Friday.
Mr. BURLESON. That should be Friday night?
Mrs. GRANT. I think they both occurred Friday night.
Mr. BURLESON. You think the reference in the preceding paragraph that
we quoted should have been Friday night instead of Saturday night?
Mrs. GRANT. I’m sure when he left the synagogue he went to Phil’s, he
ordered sandwiches and he called me from Phil’s, and he said he was
going to a station. He may have told me Saturday what station he had
been at, but at that time he did not tell me.
Mr. BURLESON. If this were in this paragraph I have just quoted about
starting at about 11:30 p.m. that same night, that should be, then,
Friday night?
Mrs. GRANT. I’m sure.
Mr. BURLESON. With that substitution there, is everything else in that
paragraph true?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he just said he was going to a station.
Mr. BURLESON. Did he tell you he talked with Henry Wade?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he did.
Mr. BURLESON. Did he tell you——
Mrs. GRANT. Wait a minute—the phone rang—wait a minute—there were a
group of men. The phone rang and Jack was nearest the phone, wherever
this takes place—where they interrogate people or talk to people—I
haven’t a vague idea, but yet I have been up there. Someone said answer
the phone and he picked up the phone and he said, “It’s for you,
Henry.” He told me this on Saturday.
A man at a station, and this time I think—this was Friday night—that I
know, and he said, “Can I talk to Henry Wade?” And I think it was Russ
Knight on the other end of the phone who said, “Okay,” and they were
giving Russ Knight, who was—now, I know it was with KLIF because he was
with KLIF, but he didn’t tell me this until Saturday when he came over
but I’ll be honest, he told me when he was going to a station on Friday
I did not know whether it was radio, television, or police station—I
know he was in Phil’s and he ordered a lot of sandwiches.
Mr. BURLESON. Would you read, then, with that explanation, and see if
these two paragraphs are correct?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; yes.
Mr. BURLESON. All right, let’s move on to the last paragraph on page 5,
which continues on page 6. Would you read it and see if it is correct?
Mrs. GRANT (reading). You see, I’ll tell you—I know when he got home
Saturday afternoon, he left me—I made dinner for him and he called me.
Mr. BURLESON. Was it about 12:40?
Mrs. GRANT. No; he called me before that, once again, I would say it
was more like 10:30 or 10 o’clock—he was still at home—Saturday he was
still home—10 o’clock.
Mr. BURLESON. All right; let me interrupt you—Eva—just a second, and
let me read to you this paragraph starting on page 5 at the bottom,
“Mrs. Grant stated that she next heard from her brother, Jack Ruby,
about 12:40 a.m., Sunday, November 24. 1963, at which time he called
her by telephone.” Now, you say that you heard from him sometime before
12:40?
Mrs. GRANT. This fits in here—this part here.
Mr. BURLESON. What I just read fits back up into the first paragraph?
Mrs. GRANT. No—on Saturday he left my home around 8 o’clock. I did not
hear from him for about 2 hours, it seems that long anyway. He called
and he said—I know exactly what he said—he said he was making liver
that George bought and getting dressed.
Mr. BURLESON. That George Senator bought?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. And he was at home?
Mrs. GRANT. No; George was not at home.
Mr. BURLESON. I mean, Jack was at his apartment?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; this was Saturday.
Mr. BURLESON. All right.
Mrs. GRANT. And in those 2 hours, I assume he took a shower and from
the telephone messages he must have made five long-distance calls from
what I heard—that is Saturday—I don’t know where he went, but I do know
he called me back again and it was after midnight, and it was near 1
o’clock, as much as I could remember.
Mr. BURLESON. Would you continue on page 6, that continuation of the
paragraph, and see if the rest of it is correct?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, this is what I said——
Mr. BURLESON. Now, let me read that into the record—just a second.
Mrs. GRANT. At 12:40 he was at home. From the way he talked I assumed
he was at home.
Mr. BURLESON. Just a second, now. “She said she gained the impression
that he was at his residence.”
Mrs. GRANT. For Saturday is it?
Mr. BURLESON. From—for Saturday night when he called you at 12:40?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. BURLESON. Would you read the next sentence in there and see if that
is correct?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, directing your attention to the next paragraph,
which is the first complete paragraph on page 6, would you read that
and see if that is correct?
Mrs. GRANT (reading). That is correct.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, the last paragraph on page 6, which continues on
page 7—would you read that?
Mrs. GRANT. Okay. [Read.] That’s all right.
Mr. HUBERT. I am handing you and your attorney a document which has
been identified as follows: That is to say, I have written in the
margin of this document, this consisting of one page, the words,
“Dallas, Tex., May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 2 deposition of Eva Grant,”
and I have signed my name and this purports to be of a telephone
interview between you and the FBI agent Jack Peden on November 29 1963,
and I will ask you if it is correct, if anything has been omitted, any
corrections to be made or anything wrong about it in regards to the
first paragraph, which says, “Mrs. Eva L. Grant, 3929 Rawlins, was
telephonically contacted at the Vegas Club, 3508 Oak Lawn, Dallas,
Tex., and she stated that she first came to Dallas Tex., in August of
either 1942 or August 1943.”
Did you come here?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I stayed a very short while. It was during the war and
I lived out in Oak Cliff—it seems to me on Ohio Street somewhere.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that you were really just passing through?
Mrs. GRANT. No; but I was just here for a couple of weeks and then I
left and you see I was always on the way from Chicago to Los Angeles.
Mr. BURLESON. Are there any other changes or corrections in this that
you want to make?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, this building—wasn’t—go back to 1945.
Mr. BURLESON. Let me read into the record the second paragraph, “She
advised that a building was being erected at 1717 South Ervay, in
Dallas, shortly after she arrived in Dallas, and she arranged to lease
it.”
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; but that was not until 1945.
Mr. HUBERT. That was in 1945?
Mrs. GRANT. I’m sure the last part of it was 1945.
Mr. HUBERT. That was in 1945?
Mrs. GRANT. I’m sure the last part of 1945.
Mr. HUBERT. Is the last sentence in the second paragraph correct?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, yes; that’s correct—let me explain this—you see, when
they say I went to the west coast, yes; but I didn’t stay there too
long. I mean, it took me from 6 months to 8 months to come back.
Mr. BURLESON. Let me ask you this. In the last paragraph, Mrs. Grant
stated that “she left Dallas in 1948 and went to the west coast. She
informed that she returned to Dallas two or three times after 1948 and
has made Dallas her home since April 1959”; is that correct?
Mrs. GRANT. I was here many more years than that.
Mr. BURLESON. All right, what is the true situation?
Mrs. GRANT. Even if I left, I wasn’t gone maybe a half a year or 8
months even, and then I came back and I stayed here again, and then
Jack had another club called Hernando’s Hideaway, and I was here a year
then, maybe 2 years. Gee, I was mostly here since 1948 than any place I
have been.
Mr. BURLESON. But you did move to other places?
Mrs. GRANT. I went to Los Angeles or Chicago—no other place than that.
Mr. BURLESON. And with those additions and corrections, this is
correct; is that right?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I mean—I wouldn’t call any other place my home.
Mr. BURLESON. All right, that’s all.
Mr. HUBERT. Now——
Mrs. GRANT. You know, of course, that I went on the road and came back.
Mr. BURLESON. All right.
Mr. HUBERT. I have marked for identification a document which purports
to be an interview on December 2, 1963, of you by FBI Agent Jack
Peden, and for purposes of identification I have marked it as follows:
“Dallas, Tex., May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 3 of the deposition of Eva
Grant,” and I have signed my name and ask you the same comments with
respect to that document?
Mrs. GRANT (examining instrument referred to). It’s going back so
far—yes; this is correct, but there are a lot of things that happened,
other things.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; we understand that.
Mr. BURLESON. But this is correct as far as it goes, and as far as it
states?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. BURLESON. There are other matters, but we won’t go into those at
this particular time—this is true and correct?
Mrs. GRANT. I mean, if you look at those States, and then look at
those, you would think I was in both places at one time, but it wasn’t
like that.
Mr. BURLESON. All right, but this is true as far as it goes?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; of course, there are some—who remembers everything—I
had a little restaurant.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, we’ll get to the next document, which is a report of
an interview on December 31, 1963, between FBI Agent Gaston Thompson
and yourself, which I have marked for identification, “Dallas, Tex.,
May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 4, deposition of Eva Grant,” and I have
signed my name, and I ask you if that is correct and if there are
any additions or omissions, and if so please state what you think is
incorrect as to that document?
Mrs. Grant (read instrument referred to).
Mr. BURLESON. I will ask you about the first paragraph—is it correct?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, getting to the second paragraph, I’ll ask you if it
is correct?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, that’s what I told them because that’s what I
thought—they told me he wasn’t dead.
Mr. BURLESON. Have you heard anything since then to the contrary?
Mrs. GRANT. I have not spoken to anybody—to anybody who knows where he
is—whether he is dead, outside of what his name, Clements here told me
they found him—he’s alive.
Mr. BURLESON. Directing your attention to the sentence in the second
paragraph that says, “Frank had a sister named Rose Solomon in Los
Angeles,” is that correct?
Mrs. GRANT. No; instead of sister, it should be aunt. He only had one
sister and no other living relatives I would know.
Mr. BURLESON. Other than Rose Solomon, who is an aunt and not a sister?
Mrs. GRANT. It seems it was his mother’s sister, and that was the
closest family.
Mr. BURLESON. Other than one change there, as far as this statement is
concerned, it is true and correct?
Mrs. GRANT. That is right—that’s right.
Mr. BURLESON. Off the record.
(Discussion between Counsel Burleson and Hubert.)
Mr. HUBERT. Now, let’s proceed along these lines. What I would like to
know is something of the family background, Mrs. Grant.
Mrs. GRANT. I’m ashamed to tell you.
Mr. HUBERT. For instance, your mother’s name?
Mrs. GRANT. Let me explain the situation, even with my family, my
mother’s fathers’ name was Rutkowfsky.
Mr. HUBERT. Let me handle it this way—if you will just answer my
questions, then at the end of each one of these blocks of questions,
your attorney will be able to clarify anything he wants to.
Mrs. GRANT. But this is something—there has been a mixup in the family.
A lot of times my sister would say her name was——
Mr. HUBERT (interrupting). If you will just answer my question and then
we will move on this way. What was you mother’s name?
Mrs. GRANT. Fanny.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what her last name was prior to her
marriage?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s what I’m trying to remember.
Mr. HUBERT. You said it was Rutkowfsky, is that correct?
Mrs. GRANT. I think my mother’s mother was married twice. Sometimes
they used the name as Turek [spelling] T-u-r-e-k, but her father’s name
was Rutkowfsky—he was a doctor of medicine in Zimbrola, Poland.
Mr. HUBERT. Did your mother have any brothers or sisters?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you name them, please, if you remember?
Mrs. GRANT. One was Sarah—they are dead—do you still want the names?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, ma’am—did she marry anyone?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes, I know the name real good—wait a minute—isn’t that
terrible—Moskowitz [spelling] M-o-s-k-o-w-i-t-z.
Mr. HUBERT. Did any of your mother’s relatives——
Mrs. GRANT. There is another one.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, go ahead.
Mrs. GRANT. Her brother lived until a couple of years ago. His name
was Harry Rutland, and after he arrived in this country, which is 65
years ago, I would say, or close to that time, he changed his name from
Rutkowfsky to Rutland, and he lived for 45 years in Denver, Colo., and
he died in, let’s say, the last 3 or 4 years, I don’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Did the sister that you mentioned come to the United States?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All three of the children?
Mrs. GRANT. At different times they arrived.
Mr. HUBERT. Came to the United States and settled in the United States;
is that right?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any communication between your mother and her
sisters and brothers after they came here?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. They were your aunts, in fact?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, we were very close when they were alive. Let me say
there was a great family, but they were killed out in Europe.
Mr. HUBERT. All of these people are dead now and have been for some
time?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, turning to your father’s side of the family, what was
your father’s name?
Mrs. GRANT. His name was Joseph Rubenstein.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any brothers and sisters?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he had a brother that came over 2 years later. His
name was Abraham.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened to him?
Mrs. GRANT. He died 7 years ago or 6 years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he live in the United States?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he did, in Chicago.
Mr. BURLESON. He had settled here too, then?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes, he did.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your father’s employment?
Mrs. GRANT. He was a carpenter.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he work for anyone as a regular proposition?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he worked for the U.S. Government during World War I.
Baltimore, Md.; he built barracks, he was a union member for 55 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he belong to any other clubs?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes—he came from a town called Sokovosolover, Poland.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how to spell that?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, we could never get it right, it’s a case of
“Sokovosolover”—we could never get it right, but there is a town there
by that name and he was born in that town. Let me explain this—his
people, country people, came to this country. From that particular
stay, they formed this club. It was called Verein, and it was a social
meeting or group where all the people from this little town and
families would get together and there are still some in existence,
believe it or not, and probably in Chicago and I have a cousin, my
father’s nephew is still alive. His name is Abraham Rubenstein.
Mr. HUBERT. And this was a club formed in Chicago by the people of this
village who all came to the United States?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes—that’s right, they did come at different times.
Mr. HUBERT. It was a social and cultural get-together?
Mrs. GRANT. It was a social meeting club, where all the people from
this little town and their families could get together and there are
still some in existence believe it or not. And I have a cousin—my
father’s nephew is still alive. His name is Abraham Rubenstein by the
way.
Mr. HUBERT. And this was a club formed in Chicago by the people of this
village who all wanted to enter into the United States?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right—they had come at different times.
Mr. HUBERT. It was a social and a cultural proposition?
Mrs. GRANT. It was a get-together to know they are alive and they have
bought a cemetery where you can in due time——
Mr. HUBERT. Did you attend any of the meetings?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there anything political about them?
Mrs. GRANT. No—I’m going to tell you.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, just tell me.
Mrs. GRANT. Honest to God, there wasn’t—they drank and they danced.
Mr. HUBERT. But would you answer my question as to whether or not there
was any political activity discussed—the answer is what—yes or no?
Mrs. GRANT. You may write to the man—Abraham Rubenstein, he is still
alive.
Mr. HUBERT. I just want to know whether your impression and your
attendance at the meetings of the club indicate to you whether this
group at any time had any political implication whatsoever?
Mrs. GRANT. No, no; not that I would know of.
Mr. HUBERT. You never observed any? Of any kind?
Mrs. GRANT. Never.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us something of Jack’s youth and education
and his childhood—you were older than he was and therefore, you are
able to observe it, I would think.
Mrs. GRANT. I am 2 years older and how far back do you want to go—do
you want me to go?
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of education did he have?
Mrs. GRANT. I think he went about a year and a half to high school.
Mr. HUBERT. Were your parents separated?
Mrs. GRANT. My parents were separated—yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When did they separate?
Mrs. GRANT. In the spring of 1921.
Mr. HUBERT. That was when Jack was about 10 years old?
Mrs. GRANT. Let’s see, if he was born in 1911—yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did Jack and you live with—your father or your mother?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I went to live—my mother has—these people don’t live
there any more, in Maywood, Ill., my mother’s niece—the daughter of
this Sarah Moskowitz, Bertha Miller, I went to live with her for a
while. Then my father took an apartment, such as it was and I went to
live with him for a while, and—you want to know?
Mr. HUBERT. What about Jack himself?
Mrs. GRANT. Now, this is something that there is a haziness about
it—two of my brothers were put on a farm with some people. It seems
to me—I don’t know which two—went to Woodstock, Ill., and one went to
a place called West Chicago or Chicago Heights and I have forgotten
whether Jack was by himself and Earl and Sammy went to a place. Then
later on it seemed to me Jack went to stay with a family, maybe a year
later, called the Michelles—he admired them.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, is it fair to state that apparently the family broke
up; is that correct?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes—well, my mother had a nervous breakdown. That was
the first time, because of the dissension in the home because of my
father’s activities of drinking.
Mr. HUBERT. Is your father an alcoholic?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he lived until 89—how can we prove it—you know, we
never knew if he was drunk or sober, but he drank plenty.
Mr. HUBERT. When did he die?
Mrs. GRANT. I would say in 1958 or 1959. I have just forgotten now,
I’ll be honest about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether Jack himself was involved in some
sort of juvenile court proceedings?
Mrs. GRANT. We all were. In the State of Illinois, when parents
separated, I think there is such a thing as you are under the
jurisdiction of the juvenile court, because I went to court several
times. I don’t think—I think I was probably 12 or 13 years old—I don’t
know. I remember going to a very famous court and I can’t think of the
judge’s name.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what I’m trying to get at is this——
Mrs. GRANT (interrupting). Not for being bad or anything.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s exactly what I want to get at. In other words, these
juvenile court proceedings resulted, you say, from the mere fact that
you had a broken home and not from the fact——
Mrs. GRANT (interrupting). The Jewish Aid Society——
Mr. HUBERT. Just a minute, let me finish the question—this did not
reflect that the juveniles involved, whether it was you or Jack——
Mrs. GRANT. Or anyone else.
Mr. HUBERT. Or anyone else had been in any trouble such as we call
today—juvenile delinquency; is that correct?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. And your statement to me is that although you yourself have
been in these proceedings——
Mrs. GRANT (interrupting). I have been in front of the judge.
Mr. HUBERT. It has not been because of juvenile delinquency; is that
correct?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, there was a big——
Mr. HUBERT. Just answer my question, I think you can answer my question.
Mrs. GRANT. I have been there several times in front of a judge and my
mother was there and the kids were there, and truthfully, it’s all so
vague I can’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that in his youth Jack was called by the
nickname “Sparky”?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us how he acquired that name?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, there was a horse called “Sparky” that was the
slowest darn horse you ever saw and it was a joke, you know, in the
funny papers, and they would rib him about him. Jack was short and fat
and stocky. He wobbled when he walked, from the time I remember he was
5 years old, until the time he was 8, and it seemed shortly after that
he acquired that name and that burned him up, and from then on he has
become very fast with his fists and he started hitting fellows—well—the
fellows who probably kept calling him “Sparky”, let’s say, but these
were all little boys—8, 9, 11 or 10.
Mr. HUBERT. And that’s how he got the name “Sparky”?
Mrs. GRANT. As much as I remember.
Mr. HUBERT. From two sources—from the horse named “Spark Plug” or the
comic strip that had a horse named “Spark Plug” and from the fact that
he, as a child, reacted quickly to taunts of his young friends?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he changed, but the name stuck with him still.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I understand that, but we are just talking about how
he acquired the name.
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How would you describe the neighborhood in which you were
raised, generally, and the conditions under which you were generally
raised?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, when you discuss people who come from the old
country, that was the best neighborhood they could afford to live in.
Two doors down were some very wealthy people—the Katzen family. My
father was a carpenter and he worked—he tried to work all the time.
There wasn’t work always available, but it was considered a poor
neighborhood, but I’ll tell you—went with him four blocks away to look
over other neighborhoods.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, as you recall it now, would you classify it as a good
neighborhood, or a bad neighborhood, or what? Because, you see, we are
trying to get some background information here.
Mrs. GRANT. Okay. We lived in a block where the houses have two-story
buildings. In one block between the both sides I will say there was
150 children between the ages of 4 and 15, because these families have
large groups and most of the families have 6 children or 8 and some of
them had 12.
Mr. HUBERT. You are familiar with the modern term “a slum
neighborhood,” would you characterize it like that?
Mrs. GRANT. Not really a slum because those who had more money next
door lived better, but there were worse neighborhoods. I don’t know how
much worse. I admit to you often we talked about it. I don’t say the
middle class people lived there. It was below the middle class, but yet
it wasn’t the poorest class.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you marry, Mrs. Grant?
Mrs. GRANT. I married March 30, 1930, to Hyman Magid in Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. And I think there was a child born of this marriage?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; that’s Ronnie Magid.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, that child is what age?
Mrs. GRANT. He will be 33 next month.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were divorced from Mr. Magid?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I was.
Mr. HUBERT. What year?
Mrs. GRANT. I think it was 1934 in Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. What was Mr. Magid’s, your husband’s, occupation?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, you really want to know—that’s a catchy question. He
went into business with his father and his father owned a meat market,
but that was later on. He really took up—he was a college graduate and
he did electrical work, but he never worked at it. He didn’t adapt
himself to it for some reason or other.
Mr. HUBERT. What did he do for a living, then?
Mrs. GRANT. As far as I know he was a butcher.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean at that time.
Mrs. GRANT. He went to school when I married him and after that he
worked with his father.
Mr. HUBERT. In a butcher shop?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right, it was during the depression.
Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live during the time of your marriage?
Mrs. GRANT. I lived with my mother-in-law on Kolin Avenue.
Mr. HUBERT. In Chicago?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, after your divorce, I think you went to the west
coast, is that correct?
Mrs. GRANT. Jack went there first.
Mr. HUBERT. What year was that?
Mrs. GRANT. I think it was in 1934 in January, I mean, it seems to me
it was that year.
Mr. HUBERT. You had been divorced?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s when he went there. I didn’t go there until later.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack went first?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes, he did.
Mr. HUBERT. And he must have been a man about 21 or 22 at that time?
Mrs. GRANT. It could be.
Mr. HUBERT. This was in 1934?
Mrs. GRANT. Don’t hold me to 1934 or 1935. I’m so confused. I know it
was either one of the years, and he went there right after the first of
the year, and I followed 6 months later.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why he went there?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes, he went to work. There was no work in Chicago and
there was boys out there that said there was jobs—that there was a lot
of jobs available in San Francisco.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you live with him when you went out?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes—yes, I did; we occupied an apartment.
Mr. HUBERT. It was you and Jack and your son?
Mrs. GRANT. My son—I put him in a private school and Jack helped me pay
for him.
Mr. HUBERT. What was Jack’s occupation on the west coast?
Mrs. GRANT. He got a newspaper crew—sometimes he worked for the Call
Bulletin, which is a famous Hearst paper, the Examiner, and sometimes
he gave us the crew and he worked for the—there was a news—it was
called the San Francisco News and sometimes we worked for the
Chronicle. You see, there is a system——
Mr. HUBERT. Well, when you say you worked for them, in what capacity?
Mrs. GRANT. We solicited for subscriptions door to door. It was during
the height of the depression.
Mr. HUBERT. This was sort of a door-to-door operation that you and he
had, was it?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he was a better salesman. He was always guiding me,
you know, let me put it this way—there was good money in it considering
the times, because they were paying 90 cents an order and we would go
out and get 8 or 10 or 15 orders a day, which you couldn’t get in any
other job, and our obligations were great. My son’s expenses were $65
a month and my brother helped support half of the fellows that didn’t
work—who wouldn’t do this.
Mr. HUBERT. When you say your “brother” you mean Jack?
Mrs. GRANT. I mean Jack—Jack was the only one out there.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave California?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I married Frank Grant in San Francisco in 1936, and I
think we stayed around another year or a year and a half.
Mr. HUBERT. But did you still reside with Jack then after you married?
Mrs. GRANT. For a while he did—yes, he did.
Mr. HUBERT. He lived with you?
Mrs. GRANT. We had a four-room apartment and my son was home then with
us.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack have any other occupations during the time you
were on the west coast other than that which you have described?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t remember out there anything but for the newspapers,
you know, and first he came to Los Angeles and he nearly starved to
death. He became a singing waiter and someone told him—well, he said he
was on his way to San Francisco but I think he didn’t have enough money
or gas to get there—to San Francisco.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you subsequently divorced from Frank Grant?
Mrs. GRANT. Now—I’m divorced many years.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, ma’am; that’s what I wanted to get. When were you
divorced?
Mrs. GRANT. I think I filed in 1941.
Mr. HUBERT. But you left the west coast about what—1937?
Mrs. GRANT. No, I didn’t. I went down to Los Angeles with Frank Grant
and I lived there. I may have went home on a trip to Chicago, which I
did very often.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave the west coast permanently?
Mrs. GRANT. I think it was after the war broke out.
Mr. HUBERT. When did Jack leave the west coast?
Mrs. GRANT. He already left.
Mr. HUBERT. About what year, do you remember?
Mrs. GRANT. He may have left before 1940, but you see, he came back so
many times and he and a fellow by the name of Harry Epstein started to
sell premium items—a cedar chest with candy, if I remember, and they
developed a company—I think it was called the Spartan Co.—the Spartan
Novelty Co.
Mr. HUBERT. That was Jack and this fellow Epstein?
Mrs. GRANT. Harry Epstein—that’s as well as I remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any of these other friends?
Mrs. GRANT. Who do you want me to remember?
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know—you see—you must tell me.
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, you asked me—listen, I know all the fellows we knew in
Chicago and went to school with and grew up with.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, perhaps you could name some of them that you
remember.
Mrs. GRANT. Well, you see, there is a difference of friends and
acquaintances. There are people, you knew, that we just knew they
existed.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I think what we want to know is the friends, of
course, a lot of people you know, but those you would classify as being
friends.
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he was an admirer of Barney Ross that was a good
friend all through the years and Barney fought on the west coast. They
were very close. Let’s see—while we were on the west coast we were very
friendly with Izzy Kaplan, with Frankie Goldstein—you see, these people
all worked in the newspaper—they were all working fellows at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Were they from Chicago originally?
Mrs. GRANT. No; we met them out on the west coast soliciting for
newspapers. In Chicago I could name hundreds of fellows—I don’t know—Al
Kamin, do you know him—is he down on the list? He owned the Marlene
Sales Co. at one time and I think that at one time—now, let me tell
you the story about him. He and Jack were selling premiums and they
went and made a plaque. They invested every dime they could get from
my family, which was $1,500—my sister Marion and Earl—and this plaque,
now, I don’t know if it was in that year or when it was done, but it
was President Roosevelt’s head and they figured for an inducement to
give away, that was a giveaway item. It was worth about $1 retail,
whoever wanted it, but they were selling merchandise and Al Kamin had
a place at 5 North Wabash or 5 South Wabash in Chicago. I don’t know—I
was not there at the time, but I do know this plaque thing existed and
I know another thing that they went into. You know, there were eight
children and anyone who had a buck in the family, they went into a deal
where they made something about this size [indicating], and it told
about Pearl Harbor. I don’t know if you remember seeing that plaque.
They sold quite a bit of them, but to them it was a giveaway. They
sold quite a bit of merchandise—to induce these purchasers, they would
give them 10 or 15 of them. It was like a certificate that the people
shouldn’t forget Pearl Harbor. Now, that could have been—he wasn’t in
the war yet, where Earl and Sammy was already in. He went in, I think,
the last one. I may be wrong. I have forgotten—I’ll be honest about it,
but they were merchandising and this man and he were in business.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, then did you move from the west coast back to Chicago
prior to Pearl Harbor; you did, did you not?
Mrs. GRANT. I was on the west coast—he was gone. He was in Chicago and
I think he was with Harry Epstein, I’m sure, in 1940 and in 1941 when
the war broke out. Now, he has been back to California. Other members
of the family came to visit my son and myself in 1940 and 1941, but he
was already, I think, established with Harry Epstein. Harry would know
something more about this than I do—I don’t remember, but I know they
were selling merchandise.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any acquaintenance or friends that Jack had
who had been convicted of crimes?
Mrs. GRANT. Name them—I’ll admit to it if I know—yes—let me say this,
we knew undesirable characters that grew up in our neighborhood.
Mr. HUBERT. You remember some of their names?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you state them, please?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t want it to be in the public library. These fellows
are such nice fellows today, I heard. You know, if these things get
out, they think we are degrading them. We were raised with a lot of
people that become undesirables. They were people that lived in our
neighborhood. Some went to school with us. I know of a fellow getting
killed—he said his name was English—he was a bad character as far as
we knew. He was 16 years old and I think they killed him on a swing
somewhere in the area. We knew the family where they had three boys and
I understand—I’m going to tell you about this family, because I told
the Secret Service, Elmer Moore. His name was Lenny Patrick. Let me
explain—we knew he existed. We never associated with him in our home or
in our business or anything.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I wanted to ask you. You see, I have asked you
if these people were your friends or not.
Mrs. GRANT. No; but they are people we know. We know their family—we
see them, “How’s your mother, how’s your sister?”
Mr. HUBERT. But there was no close relationship between Jack and people
with criminal records, is that right? Is that a fair statement?
Mrs. GRANT. If he knew any—maybe—I don’t know whoever went to jail—all
of them.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I’m asking you what you know about it. Let me put it
this way: Do you know of any people who were friendly with Jack, not
merely knew him, but who were friendly with Jack, who you knew and he
knew had a criminal record?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I wouldn’t say he was unfriendly with them.
Mr. HUBERT. I didn’t ask you that—I’m asking you—was he friendly with
any of them?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he wasn’t associated socially or in business, yet you
saw them—they were around. If you went to a nightclub or if you went to
a bazaar.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean did they come to the home?
Mrs. GRANT. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they come and visit you and such as that?
Mrs. GRANT. No.
Mr. BURLESON. May I inject something in there—Jack didn’t visit in
their home and they didn’t visit in yours and you didn’t have anything
to do with them; is that correct?
Mrs. GRANT. Even their sisters or brothers who were nice, we didn’t
have anything to do with them, yet we knew they turned out to be some
pretty rough characters and I’m not going to deny that—Sam Yeres and
Dave Yeres—let me say this, I knew of more than he knew.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any contacts that he may have retained with
any of these people after he left the Chicago area?
Mrs. GRANT. We saw them—and we encountered them—we talked.
Mr. HUBERT. Did they come to Dallas?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, no—nobody I know. I know one did—wait a minute—Sam
Yeres did.
Mr. HUBERT. When did he come to Dallas?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know—many years ago, but he is since dead and his
brother is in Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s take the last 8 or 9 or 10 years.
Mrs. GRANT. He may have died 10 years ago, for all I know.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any people of the nature or character which
you have described whom Jack may have known in the Chicago district
whom he contacted or who contacted him in the past 10 years—to your
knowledge—if you don’t know, you don’t know.
Mrs. GRANT. If they have, I didn’t know they were here, but I doubt if
he would be friendly with them.
Mr. HUBERT. The answer is that you really don’t know?
Mrs. GRANT. I really don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you want to ask anything about this segment?
Mr. BURLESON. Yes, please.
Mrs. Grant, your father only had one brother, is that correct?
Mrs. GRANT. He had a lot of brothers—they died in the old country. The
only brother that came here as far as I knew was that one.
Mr. BURLESON. Was the one you told us about?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, the juvenile court contacts that you and your
brothers and sisters had were all a result of a broken home and not as
a result of any type of misbehavior?
Mrs. GRANT. There has never been any criminal action in my family as
much as I know.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, as to Jack’s recent last 10 years, you know of no
contacts he has had either in person or by telephone——
Mrs. GRANT. I want to correct that.
Mr. BURLESON. With any person of an undesirable or criminal element?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, the way you look at it—now, the AGVA is a highly
recognized organization in the world—it is the Actor’s Guild and Jack
had a lot of trouble here with certain other nightclub owners. We had
known that a certain individual has upped himself up from racketeering
to this particular organization.
Mr. BURLESON. Who is that individual, do you know that individual’s
name?
Mrs. GRANT. Now, as I know him, he used to be a cocktail lounge
owner and he is in that slip. His name is Jack Yanover. We know his
parents—I’ve known the man 40 years. He’s a man 65 years old.
Mr. BURLESON. He had some type of criminal element?
Mrs. GRANT. Let me tell you—to get into these union deals and
everything, Jack—by the way you know Jack was a union organizer and
became an officer, but the man he was connected with was a highly
reputable lawyer. That’s why they killed him—Leon Cook. Jack himself
never had any connections with gangsters for money, for business, for
sociability. On the other hand, when we saw them we acknowledged them.
When my father died——
Mr. BURLESON. Now, let me bring you up to the last 10 years—do you know
of any telephone contacts Jack has had?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. With whom?
Mrs. GRANT. Here—I’m going to tell you—in the last year he has had so
much aggravation in the club, that he called this Lenny Patrick. That
was the last resort. He figured he might know somebody—this guy is not
a holy man by far.
Mr. BURLESON. Lenny Patrick is not a holy man?
Mrs. GRANT. No: he’s not by far. He’s a gambler.
Mr. BURLESON. Jack called him for what purpose?
Mrs. GRANT. He called him for the purpose to see if he could fix him up
with the union, so he could have amateur night the same as the other
two fellows here.
Mr. BURLESON. It’s something to do with unions?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, let me ask you this—what about this friend of
Jack’s—this Willie, do you know this man; what do you know about him?
Mrs. GRANT. Willie—he is considered——
Mr. HUBERT. How is it spelled?
Mrs. GRANT. [Spelling] M-c-W-i-l-l-i-e.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, that’s Louis McWillie, is that who you mean?
Mrs. GRANT. I met him 8 or 9 years ago in the restaurant with Jack,
and Jack told me that night or the next night that, “He’s a gambler,”
in fact, I think he was the main guy at the high class club here,
Cipango’s, he ran games over there at that club and it is highly
recognized, and the town sort of overlooks him and they admire
him—truthfully, if you met this man, you would think he is a doctor or
a lawyer.
Mr. BURLESON. Jack has had some contact with him?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; not in business. He was a nice fellow. I don’t know
how well Jack knew him—I do know this man was getting a divorce. He was
married to a much older lady and he went to Jack—he wanted Jack to talk
to this lady to be sure she files a divorce, something to that effect,
because I went with him to her home. He wasn’t there.
Mr. BURLESON. Jack also had contact by going on vacations with him, for
instance?
Mrs. GRANT. Well; wait a minute. Jack was broke, as you know. That’s
another thing, and he was so disgusted and so blue and it seemed it
was the year my father was very ill, I think it was 1958, and that
McWillie sent him a ticket to come to Havana, Cuba, and my sister was
there—not the same time, but the same year, but there was no commotion
with Havana, Cuba, then, and McWillie—the airlines has proved that this
ticket was bought by this McWillie—that’s as much as I know.
Mr. BURLESON. He went down there and was it for some type of business
that they had talked about?
Mrs. GRANT. I’ll tell you—I understand—now, this was told to me
recently and I don’t even know if it’s so.
Mr. BURLESON. It wasn’t told to you by Jack?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t even know who told me—it’s something about jeeps
and I don’t know if I’m dreaming it or thinking it. McWillie was a
gambler and they are running a game in the big casinos where all the
bigwigs out of Miami come over for a couple of nights, and that was as
much as I knew about it because I have never been to Florida or to that
part of Florida.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, as far as you know, Jack and McWillie never had any
business relationship, McWillie was just helping Jack out on a vacation?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, Jack was depressed and sick mentally then and we
didn’t realize it.
Mr. BURLESON. Is that about the time he locked himself up?
Mrs. GRANT. No; he locked himself up before that.
Mr. BURLESON. Do you think of any other person or any other incident or
anything else that you know concerning Jack and having any connection
in the last 10 years with any one of the so-called criminal element?
Mrs. GRANT. Now, I know he went to New York to talk to a guy by the
name of Glazer, but he is considered the wealthiest booking agent,
and from what I heard years ago, this guy probably could have been
in rackets—I don’t know, but he is with the AGVA. I can’t explain
this—some of these boys have worked themselves up to——
Mr. BURLESON. So that the only contacts that you do know about were
through AGVA, or what you have already told us?
Mrs. GRANT. There was nothing—I know when Lenny—he said something about
“Maybe he knows somebody in the AGVA.”
Mr. BURLESON. Who could help them in the trouble he was having?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. He also called—there was a fellow in Chicago
by the name of—I have noticed all their names.
Mr. BURLESON. But this is all you can think about?
Mrs. GRANT. But if they have got names, I will answer it.
Mr. BURLESON. All right, we will get to that.
Mrs. GRANT. I am not trying to get out of it.
Mr. BURLESON. This is all you can think of now?
Mrs. GRANT. Let me explain something before you even—and since this
is going in this record—I knew more racketeers than he did. My girl
friends lived in classy buildings and there were fellows that worked,
they were gambling men. The ran districts in Chicago and when I was
16 or 18, this was the prohibition. We hear all of this stuff and we
were intrigued by it, but we didn’t know who these people were, but I
knew they existed, and truthfully, all in 1 year—in the early forties
they were, as you say, bumped off, but he didn’t know them, and please
believe me I am very truthful and very honest.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s go off the record now and recess until this evening.
(Discussion between counsel off the record.)
Mr. HUBERT. We will recess until 7:30 this evening.
(Whereupon, the proceeding was recessed.)
TESTIMONY OF MRS. EVA GRANT RESUMED
The proceeding was reconvened at 7:30 p.m.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that you returned to Chicago to live some
time prior to the war, is that correct?
Mrs. GRANT. Let’s see—every year I went home—I may have stayed a month,
3 months or 4 months.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean on a permanent basis.
Mrs. GRANT. I was never there permanent after I married Frank Grant. I
mean, if I was there—the longest time I was there is the year my father
was sick before he died.
Mr. HUBERT. All right; let me put it this way—I am going to ask you
if you know some names of people and if you don’t know them, all
right, but if you do know them, tell us what you know about them. For
instance, Frank Howard and Jack Howard—do you know those people?
Mrs. GRANT. No; I don’t, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And a man by the name of Erwin Berke [spelling] B-e-r-k-e.
Do you know him?
Mrs. GRANT. Never—just doesn’t ring a bell, I never have heard the
name.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Sam Jaffe [spelling]
J-a-f-f-e?
Mrs. GRANT. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Sam Chavin [spelling]
C-h-a-v-i-n?
Mrs. GRANT. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps you knew his wife, Charlotte Chavin, who is the
daughter of Sam Jaffe, did you ever see her?
Mrs. GRANT. Where are they from; do you have an idea?
Mr. HUBERT. They were from Chicago, ma’am, and they subsequently moved
to Muncie, Ind.
Mrs. GRANT. I never heard of them—I never heard of them.
Mr. HUBERT. You never heard of them?
Mrs. GRANT. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever know of any connection that Jack might have
had with those people?
Mrs. GRANT. It wasn’t a close connection. We knew some Jaffes—I mean,
as kids—they were in the undertaking business, but I haven’t heard of
them in years.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a daughter of Sam Jaffe whose name was
Charlotte and she married Sam Chavin?
Mrs. GRANT. No, sir; I can’t recall.
Mr. HUBERT. Then there was another daughter who married Erwin Berke.
Mrs. GRANT. What was her first name? Can I ask you a question—how far
back does the names go?
Mr. HUBERT. This would have been around the period of the war—1942 to
1946.
Mrs. GRANT. I wasn’t around Chicago that much in those years—you see—I
was here and on the west coast.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, these names don’t ring a bell?
Mrs. GRANT. No, sir; I can’t place them at all unless they are
mispronounced or misspelled, but Jaffes—I did know.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know any Jaffes who moved from Chicago to Muncie,
Ind.?
Mrs. GRANT. No; no.
Mr. HUBERT. The Jaffes you did know were in an earlier period; is that
right?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. And as far as you know, they didn’t move to Muncie, Ind.?
Mrs. GRANT. In the last 25 years—I can’t place the name close to Jack
or me.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Paul Labriola [spelling] L-a-b-r-i-o-l-a?
Mrs. GRANT. No.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Hershey Colvin?
Mrs. GRANT. I never heard those names.
Mr. HUBERT. Jimmy Weinberg?
Mrs. GRANT. We are—my mother had a niece that was married to a
Weinberg, but there is not one name like that in the family—no Jimmies.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you did, of course, move ultimately to Dallas, which
has been your home, I take it, for some period?
Mrs. GRANT. On and off for over 20 years—22 years.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you first come to Dallas?
Mrs. GRANT. I think it was in 1942 or 1943, I was here for a little
while.
Mr. HUBERT. For how long?
Mrs. GRANT. For a few months at least it seems.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of coming here to Dallas; do you
remember?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, I came to look—Al Kamin owned the Marlene Sales and he
had costume jewelry and he wanted me to sell it, you know, in little
stores and I took a sample and I didn’t sell it. I had several samples
and I went to work selling magazines for a company, it seems, out of
Los Angeles—I don’t know what year it was.
Mr. HUBERT. This was in Dallas?
Mr. GRANT. Oh, yes; but I mean this particular agency handles all
magazines.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in Dallas during that period?
Mrs. GRANT. It seems a couple of months—I don’t know—then, I went home.
You see, I think it was during the summer—I left my son there in the
summer—I just can’t remember—honest to God.
Mr. HUBERT. Weren’t you in some sort of an export-import business?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; but that was later—I think it was in 1944, 1945,
1946, and 1947.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, you were living in Dallas on a rather permanent basis
during those years?
Mrs. GRANT. After that—yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So, I gather from your testimony you would fix a time of
your permanent domicile or residence in Dallas as about 1944?
Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me I stayed more here—then. I was here—I would
think 3 or 4 years. Even if I went to Chicago I didn’t stay long.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand, but your home in the normal sense of the word
would have been Dallas after 1944?
Mrs. GRANT. I would say from that time on I was just here until 1948,
constantly, well, I mean outside of every year—leaving for a few weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, now—what was the export-import business?
Mrs. GRANT. We really didn’t do any exporting. That was the name of
the Berger-Grant Sales Co. Milton Berger was with me—he has since
died. We bought and sold caustic soda, soda ash, and my brother Jack
made a connection for me to sell irons—regular household irons and
lamps and merchandise, but he knew a factory in Chicago and they sent
me merchandise and Milton went on the road and through seven or eight
States in the South and I handled the business end of it—that was
caustic soda, soda ash, and we had a few accounts—the best account I
remember is the Rivera people—the Rivera family. They bought soda ash
and caustic soda from us.
Mr. HUBERT. Who were they?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, Jerry Rivera, his home is in Piedras Negras—they are
still there.
Mr. HUBERT. In what State—in what country?
Mrs. GRANT. Isn’t that right over the border in Mexico?
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know—Piedras Negras—is that it?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. It’s in Mexico?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; but he lived in San Antonio a great deal and in
Houston he had an office.
Mr. HUBERT. Is he alive?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When was the last contact with him?
Mrs. GRANT. I think I saw him about 4 years ago—maybe 5.
Mr. HUBERT. And what connection, do you recall?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, he came through—he was at one of the motels and he
called my brother and I went out and had dinner with him.
Mr. HUBERT. He called Jack, you mean?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes—now, there are several brothers in the family, and I
even met his parents the previous year.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any connection with that Rivera family or any
member of it in the last 4 or 5 years?
Mrs. GRANT. No; but I do know I met his mother and father. They came to
Chicago in one of the summers—like in the middle fifties when I was up
there. They had called our home in Chicago and his parents were staying
at the Palmer House.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any connection whatsoever between your
brother, Jack Ruby, and any member of the Rivera family in the last 4
or 5 years?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t think he had any business with them.
Mr. HUBERT. Or any connection otherwise?
Mrs. GRANT. He only knew them through me.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any connection in any way—business, social,
or otherwise, in the last 5 years?
Mrs. GRANT. Nothing—nothing. I am here now exactly a little over 4
years and I have not left this city for 4 years, outside of going to
Hot Springs once for 3 days.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Paul Roland Jones?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us what you know about him?
Mrs. GRANT. I was going with a fellow by the name of Dr. Weldon Duncan.
This fellow was here in town, at least he was 2 weeks ago—now—he is a
chiropractor and he knew this Roland Jones and Roland told me—that’s
it. He told me he was in the export business, not in the export
business exactly, wait a minute—brokerage business—of eggs.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you meet Paul Roland Jones first?
Mrs. GRANT. When I knew him well was before you see, we didn’t have
enough money to open the club. Jack was still in the service and Jack
says he will sell his interest in the Earl Products—he was in business
with the other brothers, do you have it there?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mrs. GRANT. OK—well, Jack says when he gets out of this he will send me
some money and that could have been the fall or summer of 1947. That
seems to be it.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell me how you got to meet him?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, Dr. Duncan brought him over.
Mr. HUBERT. As a friend or in what way?
Mrs. GRANT. They came to the club—I mean—just came to that club.
Mr. HUBERT. Which club was that?
Mrs. GRANT. It was called the Singapore Supper Club at 1717 South Ervay.
Mr. HUBERT. You were running that club?
Mrs. GRANT. No; the club was not open—we didn’t have chairs or tables.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, they came to this place then that was called the
Singapore Club that was not yet open?
Mrs. GRANT. And I used the office of the club for my other merchandise
business. In fact, the club was full with lamps and all other kinds of
things.
Mr. HUBERT. And this doctor introduced you to Roland Paul Jones?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever have any further connections with Roland Paul
Jones?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us about that, please?
Mrs. GRANT. We were buying metals, at least we were trying to buy
metals and materials to sell to—in fact, gas companies—one is—I have
the files, believe me, and I think it’s at Jonesboro—is it in Arkansas
or Oklahoma? Well, we got the specifications and Paul Roland Jones
brought me a piece of metal, maybe 6 inches long—it’s a certain type of
pipe, rather, he brought me, and this man didn’t want it, so I sent it
on to Chicago to my brother.
Mr. HUBERT. Which brother?
Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me I sent it to my older brother, Hyman, and
he says he knew somebody that might be able to use the amount of
footage we had at this place, and we were going to make what you call
a finder’s fee or broker’s fee, but little did we know of Paul Roland
Jones’ connection, because I’m going to tell you. This man told me
several things—“I’m not fit to be in the night club business, I’m not
the caliber of a person.”
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that—Jones told you that?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; and he seemed to be a very nice fellow and he used my
phone for a long distance call to Ardmore, Okla., and I know he paid me
$2 or $3 in change when he did it, and I didn’t know a thing about this.
Mr. HUBERT. About what, ma’am?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, wait a minute, I pick up the headlines and they
got Paul Roland Jones in jail somewhere—in Fort Worth. I no sooner
picked this up—this paper, the paper of this city, my brother is
calling me from Chicago that the FBI or some organization, one of your
organizations went to the Congress Hotel where Jack was staying and
they are questioning him about whether—about what he knew about Paul
Roland Jones. I don’t think Jack ever heard me mention the name.
Mr. HUBERT. How long had you known Paul Roland Jones when this occurred?
Mrs. GRANT. Not too many months—if it was 6 months or 8 months—it was
the longest.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you done any business with him?
Mrs Grant. No—never.
Mr. HUBERT. It was simply through meeting at the club?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, this doctor brought him in one afternoon. He knew him
because he went to him for treatment.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, that’s the first meeting, but thereafter, what was
the basis of the meeting?
Mrs. GRANT. Nothing. I mean, he came in, and I went to dinner with him
and the doctor once, and we went for a ride, but I’ll tell you, the
doctor and I didn’t know anything about his background.
Mr. HUBERT. He was ultimately charged, was he not, with the possession
of narcotics?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; in fact, we read the story that night. We were
shocked. We knew he took trips, we knew he was married to a dancer in
New York, but this all came out—wait a minute, his wife came from New
York that summer.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, we’ll get into that later. Did Jack know Paul Roland
Jones at that time?
Mrs. GRANT. If he did—no; I doubt if he ever even heard of him.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack had not come down here yet?
Mrs. GRANT. If he was, he didn’t stay long.
Mr. HUBERT. But to your recollection he didn’t know Jones at all?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t think he has ever seen him—well, wait a minute, he
may have seen the man or heard about him.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that, but at the time of this episode that you
are telling us about?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t think he ever saw him as far as I know, but I
want to tell you that Roland Jones went to Chicago during the period
of those 6 months and he did meet my brother Hyman. I don’t know what
conversation my brother had—my brother thought he was a nice guy—we
didn’t know anything about his background.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what happened to him?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; he went to jail for something about narcotics from
Turkey or something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any other charges later against him? Do you
know?
Mrs. GRANT. Do you want to know something—I went into a hotel here, and
let me think, either the Whitmore or the Southland since he has been
out, or when he got out, and this friend of mine said, “Guess who got
out of jail?” He said “Paul Roland Jones,” and I said, “That’s nice.”
Mr. HUBERT. How long ago was that?
Mrs. GRANT. This must be 7 years or 8 years—it seems like a long time
ago.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen him since?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he was here 2 years ago, I think. He came through
and he stopped by the Vegas Club one night. Oh, he says, he got in a
cab and he was coming through—he probably was here other times but he
didn’t want anybody to know—he said he was coming through changing
planes and he says he’s sure going to be picked up and he says to say
hello to Jack.
Mr. HUBERT. When was that?
Mrs. GRANT. Maybe a year and a half or 2 years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him in November 1963?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to him on the phone?
Mrs. GRANT. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know he was in Dallas?
Mrs Grant. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything you know that would indicate that your
brother, Jack, knew he was in Dallas?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know.
Mr. HUBERT. In November 1963?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know. I’ll tell you how I figure this out, if I can
go see my contract—you see, my band leader was making a record, you
know, a record of music.
Mr. HUBERT. But so far as your recollection is concerned, it would be
over a year from today?
Mrs. GRANT. Easy—easy.
Mr. HUBERT. And by “contact with him,” of course, I mean—you
know—telephone, letters, messages?
Mrs. GRANT. No; he came in—he told me that he knows people at Mercury
Records and that if I send in the song he was going to make it, and
truthfully, I was glad when he came in, when he left, for more reasons
than one. We don’t discuss his background or anything.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, that’s over a year ago—certainly.
Mrs. GRANT. It has been so long—I say a year and a half—the airlines
would know quicker than I know because he said he just flew in and he
was just there for the evening and going back out, at least that’s what
he told me. I don’t discuss his background or anything like that—at
least, that’s what he told me.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Taylor Crossley?
Mrs. GRANT. What is the first name?
Mr. HUBERT. Taylor [spelling] T-a-y-l-o-r.
Mrs. GRANT. I know a lot of Taylors here but that is the last name.
Mr. HUBERT. No; Crossley. John Melton, and Morris Melton [spelling]
M-e-l-t-o-n?
Mrs. GRANT. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you know a person by the name of Elsie Johnson?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know her?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, 8 or 9 years ago she was in the building business
with my brother, Sam. Before that—she was a commercial artist.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you meet her—when did you meet her?
Mrs. GRANT. When I first came here, and honest to God, this is one
person I can’t tell you even how I met her.
Mr. HUBERT. When you first came here—when do you mean?
Mrs. GRANT. I would say 20 years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. 1944—probably?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; and let me tell you, she knew a girl, Bobby, whether I
met Bobby first—she’s a little girl that worked as a cashier at one of
the theatres and was it that she introduced me to Bobby—I knew her very
well and her sister and her mother and her brothers, and she became a
preacher. She ordained herself.
Mr. HUBERT. Is she a friend of yours?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I don’t know if she is an enemy—I just don’t know—it
has been years since I have seen her. I spoke to her on the phone. It
seemed to me she called me November 24, that afternoon, or her sister
did.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is her sister?
Mrs. GRANT. Mary Sue Brown, and I think she worked at Green’s
Department Store.
Mr. HUBERT. And you knew Mary Sue Brown also?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; I knew the family. I used to go out there like
maybe once a year—Elsie had a car and she would drive me to her
mother’s home, which is Mrs. Barnes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do they still live in the Dallas area?
Mrs. GRANT. I’m sure they do—I probably have their phone number.
Mr. HUBERT. And your thought is that the last time you heard from them
was that there was a call from Elsie?
Mrs. GRANT. How sorry she was about my brother—it was on November the
24th.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the last contact you had with her?
Mrs. GRANT. No; I saw Mary, let’s see, I saw Mary Sue—I went to one
of the stores—I think it was H. L. Green’s and she was waiting on the
people, I mean, she was a saleswoman in the store.
Mr. HUBERT. And that’s since?
Mrs. GRANT. I haven’t seen Mary Sue for maybe a year and a half
previously or Elsie, maybe, I don’t think I have seen Elsie since I am
back this time—3 or 4 years—I can’t remember.
Mr. HUBERT. Was there any difficulty between you and Elsie concerning
some ring?
Mrs. GRANT. No; the other sister.
Mr. HUBERT. Mary Sue Brown?
Mrs. GRANT. Mary Sue Brown.
Mr. HUBERT. What about that?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, she used to come over and stay overnight and I have
this diamond ring yet, and it had a little stone in there my mother
had given me. There were many stones—from two marriage rings, and a
fellow gave me a little stone and my mother’s little—you know, a little
diamond—little diamonds. I went to take a bath and I had my money in
this purse and it’s a terrible thing—very terrible—it kills me to this
day even thinking about it—she was going to stay another day, and I
knew how much money I had on me the day before and I bought a little
dress and some things I bought. I took her to dinner and stuff like
that. She managed to wiggle out of not staying any more. She was very
nervous, and that night I get to the club and I put my ring out and you
could see the prongs were bent back—the stone was missing, the center
stone, which was about, a third of a carat. I called some friends of
mine——
Mr. HUBERT. How long ago was that?
Mrs. GRANT. I think it’s a year and a half—maybe 2 years.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, go on.
Mrs. GRANT. I just don’t remember. Anyway, I called—the vice squad came
in very often to the club and I was really very friendly with a fellow
by the name of Mike, and I don’t remember who he had with him, and they
took the ring to the laboratory—they proved that someone had—I can’t
explain it—they said——
Mr. HUBERT. They said that they had taken the stone out by force?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; something like that. Anyway, the thing is, any other
thing I wouldn’t have cared about, but that stone, my mother gave me
and she swore she didn’t do anything about it, but I’ll tell you, there
was some money missing out of my purse and I never felt right about it,
and her nervousness in getting out of the apartment and all.
Mr. HUBERT. You made no charges?
Mrs. GRANT. No; I just wished the whole thing hadn’t happened, but I
told her I wanted the stone back. I didn’t care about the money—I just
was sick.
Mr. HUBERT. Had you during the war done any kind of trading in sugar
stamps?
Mrs. GRANT. No; no.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s not true?
Mrs. GRANT. No; I never had any extra stamps outside of what my family
had.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever boast to anyone or say to anyone in any way
that you had connections with the Capone gang?
Mrs. GRANT. Aw—let me tell you, when I came to Dallas——
Mr. HUBERT. Just answer the question.
Mrs. GRANT. No, sir. And it just kills me—connections—I had no
connections.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of a Lois, or perhaps it’s Louis Green?
Mrs. GRANT. Now, I didn’t know him. He was in this town. The
conversation was great about him. He did not know me—he wouldn’t know
me if he saw me and I understand he’s dead. There was absolutely—the
man never even talked to me. I wouldn’t know him—short, tall, or
anything.
Mr. HUBERT. You never met him?
Mrs. GRANT. No; not to my knowledge—no, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the circumstances of his death?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t think I was here.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he die—how long ago, do you know?
Mrs. GRANT. I really don’t know, but I was hurt—you know what I
mean—there were certain individuals I read about in the papers. I know
he was considered a character.
Mr. HUBERT. What do you mean by that?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he was with the rough element—he never worked.
Mr. HUBERT. In Dallas, you mean?
Mrs. GRANT. In Dallas—he was a Dallas man, as much as—-you know, when
you are in the night club business, you see a lot of undesirable
people, but you are not sure.
Mr. HUBERT. Tell us how you got into the night club business yourself.
Mrs. GRANT. Well, when I was on the west coast I ran a restaurant in
back of a bar and it seemed to be quite a lucrative business. That was
Frankie Nolan’s place on Sunset Boulevard. Now, whether that was the
second place or the first place—I don’t know, but then I once went with
a fellow, Harvey Brooker, and his mother had a restaurant and I learned
to manage that.
Mr. HUBERT. That was in San Francisco?
Mrs. GRANT. No; it was in Los Angeles—both these places were in Los
Angeles.
Mr. HUBERT. I was thinking particularly about the Dallas area.
Mrs. GRANT. Then, when I came here and I worked for Harvey Phillips,
the Southwest Tool & Die Co., some real estate man who he was
acquainted with, Fred Shinskey, said, “You know, I know a good spot
where the landlord wants to build a restaurant and night club,” and
Jack got money from the Earl Products—and sent me $1,100 and I think
that was the amount, to put the money down on the lease—the first and
the last months of a 10-year lease. Mr. Waddlington, who owned the
ground, had built the inside of the building—no; the outside of the
building, and part of the inside to my specifications and the idea was
that Jack—Jack was in the service but he was very unhappy in being in
business with my two brothers, and they sent me some money. I think
they sent me—one brother sent me $1,500 and my older brother—with the
things he bought and paid for ran about $2,500—like dishes and intercom
system and a grand piano—ran to about $2,500—and this is Hyman——
Mr. HUBERT. And so——
Mrs. GRANT. Wait a minute, and I went into business then.
Mr. HUBERT. That became known as what?
Mrs. GRANT. That became known as the Singapore Supper Club for a little
over a year, and it was a very sad—it was too nice a club for that part
of town there.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, did Jack join you in that venture?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; he was a partner in it.
Mr. HUBERT. And he actually helped operate it?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; listen, I want to tell you, he did all the operating,
and the truth of the matter is, had he not known how bad that
neighborhood was—you see, I didn’t know, because I didn’t mingle
with anybody and I didn’t understand about certain—what they call
the tenderloin district, I never heard the word. He was mad that I
got involved in that with so much money and then all this work—this
struggle for 2 years—It took 2 and 2½ years or 3 years until they built
the building.
Mr. HUBERT. He came in what year—Jack did?
Mrs. GRANT. He came right after he got out of service and it seems to
me it was in 1948.
Mr. HUBERT. And he stayed with you running this club for some time?
Mrs. GRANT. I left shortly. I went on the road—I went on the west coast
and I was selling fishing tackle for Harvey Phillips, and then I got
another line—of radios.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, is it fair to say then that when Jack came, you
left—just about?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, shortly after that.
Mr. HUBERT. You sold out to him?
Mrs. GRANT. No; I just gave him power of attorney. It’s my brother.
Mr. HUBERT. And he invested $1,100?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, he invested a lot more—he got more money out of what he
sold out of his business in Chicago and I don’t know how much his end
of the Earl Products came to.
Mr. HUBERT. He sold or closed the Singapore Supper Club?
Mrs. GRANT. He changed the name to the Silver Spur because that name
would fit better in that area.
Mr. HUBERT. And did you have an interest in the Silver Spur?
Mrs. GRANT. He sent me some money when I was broke or sick or I didn’t
work or the weather was too hot.
Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t have any financial interest in the Singapore
Club?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, I put in money because I made money in the brokerage
business. Every time I made money, I would throw it back in—I put it
back in.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what was the arrangement between you and Jack as to
the ownership of the Silver Spur?
Mrs. GRANT. We were partners.
Mr. HUBERT. Half and half?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; but there was never any half and half. I can’t explain
it. He was there and things were so bad, we were lucky we were eating.
That’s one of the reasons I left and went out to the west coast on the
road with the fishing tackle.
Mr. HUBERT. And you stayed away from Dallas as I understand it, until
approximately 1959, wasn’t it?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, no; I was here lots of times.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I understand that, but I mean—you didn’t come back
here to live on a permanent basis?
Mrs. GRANT. I was here—I was here the next year—the year after that,
and I stayed 2 years and he got involved with another club that a
fellow was wanting to sell it and it was called Hernando’s Hideaway and
I think that was in 1952 or 1953, and by then—Jack always had his hands
in two or three places—whether they are making money or not, and I ran
this other club, if I remember, and then I ran the Vegas Club for a
while.
Mr. HUBERT. But you came back to Dallas, so that it was on a permanent
basis, in what year?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know how long I was here then.
Mr. HUBERT. But I think you mentioned a little while ago that you
haven’t been out of town—out of this town for 4 or 5 years?
Mrs. GRANT. Now, I am here 4 years constantly.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I am talking about.
Mrs. GRANT. But this time I was gone about a year and a half or 2, but
I have been back here, but I didn’t come to stay.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I understand, so that during the period from
1948 to roughly 1958, a period of 10 years, you were in and out of
Dallas, of course?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. But, you didn’t have any connection with any of Jack’s
operations here?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, in the early fifties when I came, I worked at the
Vegas Club and as I said, I ran this Hernando’s Hideaway.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the circumstances of Jack’s acquisition of the
Vegas Club?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us briefly how that came about?
Mrs. GRANT. I know this, that he sold the other club—I may be wrong—for
$4,500. I don’t know the exact amount—but I have an idea it was around
$4,500 and he bought this club with a couple other fellows.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know them?
Mrs. GRANT. I never met them—I know I heard the name Joe Bonds—I never
saw him in my life. Maybe if I saw him I didn’t know it was him. When I
came he was in jail.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Martin Gimpel or Marty Gimpel?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, Marty, may he rest in peace, is a real nice guy.
Mr. HUBERT. He’s dead now, isn’t he?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes—he worked for the Post Office.
Mr. HUBERT. He has been dead some time?
Mrs. GRANT. Not over 2½ years.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he in the Vegas Club?
Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me he may have been in with Jack and maybe
even—you see, there was a time he may have even taken over—Jack let
him take over the Silver Spur and Jack went into a business called—the
club—does it say Bob Wills’ Ranch House there, something like that,
anything about Bob Wills’ Ranch House?
Mr. HUBERT. No, ma’am. Did he have some interest in that?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes, and it’s here in town—it’s not that name any more.
Jack, I think, leased or sold the Silver Spur to Marty and it was
Marty that was running the club and Jack was running the Bob Wills’
Ranch House with somebody else—oh, yes, I know the guy—Hyman Fader, or
something like that.
Mr. HUBERT. Isn’t it a fact that for the last 2 or 3 years you have
operated the Vegas Club for Jack?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes, three and a half years.
Mr. HUBERT. And you have been I take it, on a salaried basis?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. You have no ownership in the club, though, I take it?
Mrs. GRANT. No.
Mr. HUBERT. But did you have complete management and control?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, let me put it this way—every week I would give
him—like if I would have $800 and he said he needed $600 to pay bills
or $400, he would take it. I make the payroll, I pay the bills and I
didn’t go to the Federal to pay the taxes.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, let me put it this way—you used your gross receipts,
I suppose, to pay the running expenses?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right, and when he would take any money, he would
take a lump; you know what I mean, 400 or 500, not if he made 2¼, did
he take 2¼.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you keep any books on the transactions?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes—what is his name—Abe Kleinman—of course, I
don’t have them—I have some of the things, but Abe Kleinman was the
accountant.
Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t own the land or the building of the Vegas Club?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, no—no.
Mr. HUBERT. How much rent was paid; do you know?
Mrs. GRANT. 500—since I’m there.
Mr. HUBERT. $500 a month?
Mrs. GRANT. $500 a month, but I think the first year that I was there,
I think it was only 400 and something.
Mr. HUBERT. All of the help, I take it, was paid in cash?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes, but everyone who signed checks. You know—I would make
out a check—I would take out their withholding and social security and
put it right on it.
Mr. HUBERT. You used a bank then for the operation of the Vegas Club?
Mrs. GRANT. We had a bank account.
Mr. HUBERT. But did you pay salaries and other expenses?
Mrs. GRANT. I paid the band and I paid the bartender and I paid a
floorman.
Mr. HUBERT. What bank was that with?
Mrs. GRANT. The Merchants’ State Bank.
Mr. HUBERT. You had a checking account there?
Mrs. GRANT. No, I didn’t. He did. But what I mean is, the checks didn’t
go through the bank. We just let them sign a check like a receipt, but
everything was on it—their names, their withholding and their social
security.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I was trying to get at—the Vegas Club or Jack
Ruby or you, yourself, for the operation of the Vegas Club, did not
have an active checking account in which money received was deposited
and expenses paid out?
Mrs. GRANT. He deposited the money every week, but it was like a round
figure, like 200. I paid for the gas, I paid the telephone and lights
and water bill on checks. I bought all the merchandise on cash and we
have receipts. He paid the rent.
Mr. HUBERT. And you paid the employees by cash, too?
Mrs. GRANT. The bartender, and the band and the floorman. The
waitresses worked on tips.
Mr. HUBERT. All the employees were paid by cash?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes, but they signed receipts for it.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand. Who was Pauline Hall in that operation, what
did she have to do?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, sometimes she helped on the floor as a hostess and,
of course, while I was ill, she took over the management for 2 weeks
in 1963 in November. She has been a waitress in our club on and off.
She has known us about 8 years. She has been a bartender when we needed
one—she is a very nice person.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand you had some trouble with your band at the
Vegas in the fall—did they quit or something of that sort?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, we had the same band leader—yes—almost 8 years.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was he?
Mrs. GRANT. Joe Johnson.
Mr HUBERT. And what happened?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he was unhappy because someone offered him more
money. We weren’t getting along, he and I, and there was always a
dissension. First of all, he wouldn’t stay on the bandstand—I had to
humor him.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did he quit or did you fire him?
Mrs. GRANT. No, we didn’t fire him. He made arrangements with another
night club.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was when?
Mrs. GRANT. He made arrangements unbeknownst to us, but he gave us
notice and he left, I think, the first week of November, 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Raymond Jones, do you know him?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. He worked at the Vegas, didn’t he?
Mrs GRANT. He worked on and off—he was a porter.
Mr. HUBERT. He was a handyman?
Mrs. GRANT. I beg your pardon?
Mr. HUBERT. He was a handyman or a porter?
Mrs. GRANT. He was a porter.
Mr. HUBERT. He quit the Vegas, didn’t he?
Mrs. GRANT. No; he has always had another job and he worked for me and
he came back—he wasn’t a very good porter. Truthfully, where he worked
the last job for 19 years, he didn’t do actually any porter work—he was
like the foreman over porters.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did he stop working for the Vegas at any particular
date so that you didn’t see him thereafter?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he came back a couple of times—Jack knew him from the
Dallas Athletic Club. That’s how I got him in the first place.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, did he quit working for you back last fall sometime?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, call it quits—he quit a few times, I called him and
he came; he is not the most intellectual man; he can’t read or write;
he can’t sign his own name.
Mr. HUBERT. But, in any case, he stopped working for you?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I fired him a couple of times and he came back. I
don’t know how you would—it isn’t any quitting—he never showed up. In
fact, he worked for me right around New Year’s again.
Mr. HUBERT. You had nothing to do, as I understand, with the operation
of the Sovereign Club or the Carousel, but perhaps you can tell us
something about how those two clubs came into existence and what you
know about them?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, first, I wasn’t in town to begin with, and when I did
arrive here, that club was in existence.
Mr. HUBERT. Which one was that?
Mrs. GRANT. That was the Sovereign Club.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s on Commerce Street, isn’t it?
Mrs. GRANT. 1312½ Commerce.
Mr. HUBERT. It’s an upstairs location?
Mrs. GRANT. And I understand Jack has taken money from Earl and
probably from my sister Mary and God knows who else in the family—there
was none of his money in there—if he had a thousand dollars of his
money, it was a lot of money.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that a corporation, to your knowledge?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who are the owners of the stock?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, from what I knew—Ralph Paul put in some money and
that was another thing. He is quite a well-to-do man and I think he
wanted Jack to be a success, whether he loaned or gave him money—I
don’t know, but I know he was connected with the club, and Leo Torti,
I think Jack owed him a little. Jack promised or owed him some money,
made him part of the corporation and the first that started out it was
with Earl being in it, but the State doesn’t allow an outsider to be in
a corporation of that type when you carry a liquor license and I think
they rehashed it later on and it went over a few times—it started out
with the people I didn’t know, but ones I got to know later on was Joe
Slayton and another fellow who I still don’t know who he is. There was
three partners—Jack represented Earl, Earl gave him the money. Jack
encouraged Earl to give him the money to go into this thing and to this
day, and this is truthfully, I think he owes Earl $8,500 on that deal
alone, and I’m making it low. I don’t know all the money Earl had given
him from time to time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know of the existence of a corporation called
Sovereign, Incorporated?
Mrs. GRANT. No; it’s called S & R Corp. or R & S. Yes; I know it now
and I knew it when I came to town. He told me about it.
Mr. HUBERT. But did you ever hear of a corporation called Sovereign
Club, Incorporated, or Inc.?
Mrs. GRANT. It could be the same club if it is. Now, since then Ralph
was so disgusted when Jack got in all this trouble, he gave me the
stock—his stock.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he own that stock that you’ve got—do you know?
Mrs. GRANT. I guess so.
Mr. HUBERT. He gave you the certificates, you mean?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; there’s no name on them—I have it at home—I think it
says 500 shares.
Mr. HUBERT. The name was just in blank?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. So, he didn’t have to endorse it over to you?
Mrs. GRANT. I told him we were going to sell it and he said, “You
endorse it over to the other person.”
Mr. HUBERT. But he did not endorse it over, he just gave you the
certificates?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he had a letter with the attorney—they went up to an
attorney called Graham Koch [spelling] K-o-c-h. Anyway, he would know
more about it than I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Ralph Paul was holding that stock as
owner or as security for money owed?
Mrs. GRANT. Who knows?
Mr. HUBERT. But do you know that?
Mrs. GRANT. I know Ralph must have given Jack a lot of money that he
never got back; believe me, let me tell you.
Mr. HUBERT. Had Jack talked to you at all about any nightclubs that he
proposed to open?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. When did he first talk to you about that?
Mrs. GRANT. Listen, now, he didn’t say he was going to open it, he
says, “This would be a good private club,” and I think he took me then
on a street here to Maple or Cedar Springs, and I guess he was going to
ask Ralph Paul for money, to be honest, they were very close.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you to be a part of it?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he didn’t tell me.
Mr. HUBERT. How far had those plans gone, do you know?
Mrs. GRANT. I looked at the outside of the building with him late at
night—3 o’clock in the morning. Now, wait a minute, he had seen it—he
had been in it—whatever this building is, and to this day I’d like to
find it because someone else told me that.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when that was that he showed that building to
you?
Mrs. GRANT. It seemed to me that it was in the summer and once early in
the fall, or it could have been in October.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say what he was going to do with the Vegas and the
Carousel?
Mrs. GRANT. He didn’t say anything about the Vegas or the Carousel, but
I’ll tell you, the Carousel in my estimation wasn’t making any money
and it made him sick, and one of the reasons was he said that all the
other clubs that sell liquor over the bar—you see, this State has very
peculiar liquor laws and he said with a downtown club he could get a
lot of members to go into this private club, but he did look at this
building a few times because he talked about it and he is the biggest
planner you’ve ever seen about something that don’t develop in his mind.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, does the name Gene Schriver [spelling]
S-c-h-r-i-v-e-r, mean anything to you?
Mrs. GRANT. Is that a girl or a fellow; do you know?
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know.
Mrs. GRANT. Well, we knew a Jean that worked for him as a waitress.
Mr. HUBERT. Is the last name Schriver?
Mrs. GRANT. Not that I know of. I knew a lot of girls that worked for
them but I didn’t know their last names.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of work did she do?
Mrs. GRANT. She was a waitress up there—a couple of years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did she stay?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, she was there two or three times. She got mad at Jack
and went over and worked for the Colony Club, if it’s the same little
girl.
Mr. HUBERT. Was she working with Jack at the time of the death of the
President?
Mrs. GRANT. Gee, I don’t know; I don’t remember who was working there.
I know one cute little girl and I couldn’t think of her name unless it
came up.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Frank Goldstein?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he used to work with him selling subscriptions in San
Francisco and when Jack was having trouble with the union—he hasn’t
spoken to that fellow in 26 years and I believe it, because I’ve
been on the west coast off and on, and Frank often asks, “Why don’t
you write to me or call?” Last fall, in fact, in November—as late as
November, I think Jack made the first call to Frank Goldstein because
things were getting very bad.
Mr. HUBERT. In your opinion, that phone call made to Goldstein was the
first connection between Jack and Goldstein——
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Wait a minute, let me finish my question—in some
considerable number of years?
Mrs. GRANT. I know that for a fact because I used to go to the west
coast and see Frank every 5 years—5 or 7 years and we talked about him
and I don’t remember Jack or him ever saying they talked or wrote and
Frank, I don’t think, could write.
Mr. HUBERT. But as far as you know, he had no connection with him; is
that right?
Mrs. GRANT. No; but I do know he is a gambler and it is very well
emphasized in San Francisco that he is a gambler.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Benny Barrish?
Mrs. GRANT. Benny—I heard he is a liquor salesman. I knew him when we
were on the west coast. He’s a Chicagoan. He came out there in 1935 and
as far as I know he’s a liquor salesman.
Mr. HUBERT. When was the last connection you had with him?
Mrs. GRANT. I saw him about 8 or 9 or 10 years ago when I went to San
Francisco.
Mr. HUBERT. You haven’t seen him or corresponded with him in any way by
telephone?
Mrs. GRANT. No, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if Jack ever knew him?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, sure. We knew him from Chicago as kids, but I’m
sure Jack hasn’t—now, I won’t say positive I know Jack hasn’t for
any reason, unless during this month—this particular month where he
was having trouble early in the fall of 1963 with regard to amateur
auditions at his club. He had contacted people all over the country
trying to find out who knew the bigwigs in the union where the AGVA,
you know, the big shots—who they were that run the union.
Mr. HUBERT. Would Benny Barrish be the sort of person who might know
something or be able to do something about that?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he gets around—he knew and knows people in the liquor
business that have entertainments in San Francisco—it might be.
Mr. HUBERT. As far as you know, Jack has made no connections out there
in anyway for some time?
Mrs. GRANT. In over 12 years—I would swear to this that he has had no
connection out there since before the war and he has never been west
of 100 miles of this area in that time. I have many, many times heard
where people said he went to Las Vegas. He hasn’t been there only once
with me and I think that was when we went to—from Los Angeles back and,
of course, that must have been in 1937 or 1938, and he has not been
back.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Jack Ruby, your brother, or communicate with
him every day, would you say, for a period of 60 to 90 days prior to
November 24?
Mrs. GRANT. Every day? I don’t say I saw him every day, but I would say
I heard him on the phone three to five times.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you be willing to say then that to the best of your
knowledge he was not out of the city of Dallas during that period, that
is to say——
Mrs. GRANT. Well, wait a minute, didn’t he go to New York in August?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, I was going to except August at that point—that’s why
I put it at 90 days.
Mrs. GRANT. Didn’t he go to see a fellow, Joe Glazer, who was the head
of a certain union?
Mr. HUBERT. We have evidence that he did go to New York in August, but
after that trip—let’s put it this way, from September 25 until November
25 just a period of 2 months, can you state to us now that to the best
of your knowledge, Jack was not out of the Dallas area?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t remember him going out.
Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, do you have any indication whatsoever of any
kind that he might have gone to Las Vegas during this period?
Mrs. GRANT. That—I swear.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you certainly would have known it if he had been
gone, say 3 or 4 days, wouldn’t you?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, for one more reason, he would advise me to keep it
quiet and to collect the money to see that Andy does this or that.
Mr. HUBERT. And there is nothing to indicate to you whatsoever that he
was in Las Vegas during September or October or November of 1963?
Mrs. GRANT. But I know he has made many calls to the same fellow,
McWillie. I would say he made at least 10 calls in those 3 months.
Mr. HUBERT. And what would be the reason for those calls?
Mrs. GRANT. The same thing—Willie might know somebody in Las Vegas,
since there is that type of entertainment, with these amateurs.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack tell you he was calling these various people
because of this trouble with the union?
Mrs. GRANT. It seemed to me—well, he was so bitter against Barney—I
shouldn’t say this because—it’s just sickening—because they didn’t mean
to hurt him—Barney and Abe Weinstein and he felt—the union sent him a
telegram to quit these amateur auditions and they sent it to Abe and
Barney, but they wouldn’t quit, but Jack figured they had an “in” with
the big guys, you know, and Jack couldn’t get to this fellow, and he
told me that he called McWillie. In fact, he may have called him even 3
days before that—he was just sick about this.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, was McWillie, and I think you mentioned another person
earlier, Lenny Patrick he called?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, Lenny Patrick he called in Chicago—one time, and he
was not there, and until he got his number—he called 15 different
people from what I understand.
Mr. HUBERT. What I was getting at is this—your explanation that if
he called Goldstein and Barrish and McWillie and so forth, your
explanation that those calls were made in connection with this
difficulty about the amateur night thing—was that information obtained
by you from Ruby, or are you just giving us your opinion of what those
calls were about?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he has discussed this with me many times and I
didn’t go to the downtown club too often, but when I did go there, it
so happened either September or October on a particular Sunday night,
whichever Sunday night it was—there are five Sundays and whichever
Sunday it would be, and the Vegas Club would be closed on Sunday, he
told me he had just gotten through talking to somebody and I’ll be
honest about it, it just went in one ear and out the other, because I
figured that——
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you see what I am trying to get at and that is
whether or not your statements that those calls were made in connection
with this AGVA business derives from him directly or whether it is
merely your opinion that those calls were about that?
Mrs. GRANT. It is not only my opinion, we talked about it. We had
discussed it and he had told me.
Mr. HUBERT. So that that does come—that information, then does come
directly from Jack?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, and one other thing, when I called home, I spoke to
my older brother and he knows Jack Yanover. My brother Jack did not
know Jack Yanover like my older brother.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s who?
Mrs. GRANT. Hyman; he’s a friend of his and my older brother in this
conversation said to me, “I told him to call Jack Yanover. Maybe he
knows somebody because Yanover has some kind of saloon in Chicago,”
that’s in my estimation because of the way it looks, and this all went
on and Jack used to rehash it with me until it—well, I know that’s what
that call was for.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was all during the period then of September and
October?
Mrs. GRANT. In the summer—last summer and he also told me, you know,
he told me during one of those months he said, “I tried to call Lenny
Patrick,” and he said, “I got his number,” he got it from somebody and
I don’t know who, what and I didn’t give a darn.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack tell you all of this prior to November 24?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, sure. To tell you the truth, the way I see Jack through
this little glass, he has very little to say.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Robert McKeown [spelling]
M-c-K-e-o-w-n, or have you ever heard of him?
Mrs. GRANT. Is it a Dallas man?
Mr. HUBERT. I believe not.
Mrs. GRANT. Would it be my friend or Jack’s friend?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, it would probably be Jack’s friend. Did Jack ever
tell you of contacting him by telephone and going to see him in the
Galveston area concerning the selling of jeeps to Castro?
Mrs. GRANT. Now, I know Jack was in Cuba 6 or 7 years ago or one of
those years.
Mr. HUBERT. Oh, yes; you told us about that—that was when he went to
join McWillie for a little while?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; and I also know that I did hear the story about jeeps.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you hear that?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, let me say this—I don’t know whether I heard it
last year or the year before, but I do remember something in a
conversation—some guy told him he knew where there were 400 or 800
jeeps or 80 jeeps and whether Jack went down—Jack went to Houston
first of all—he did go to Houston last year to see a man from a night
club. They were going to exchange acts or work in a deal, but I don’t
remember who the man was, and this all came about, but Jack, I’ll tell
you, he isn’t that kind of a promoter.
Mr. HUBERT. What did Jack tell you about the jeeps?
Mrs. GRANT. This was the deal with McWillie at the time and we were on
friendly terms, as much as I remember about it, and I think he shoved
it off.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it the jeep proposition that had something to do with
Jack’s visit to McWillie in Havana in 1959?
Mrs. GRANT. Jack was very depressed, he was having a lot of trouble,
that McWillie sent him as much as I know, a ticket to come to Havana to
have a week or 10 days vacation. That’s as much as I know of the whole
darn thing and deal outside of the talking about jeeps at that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Did that visit have anything to do with the jeeps in
addition to the rest and vacation that you know of? Now, don’t guess
about it.
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; but I heard “Jeeps” but I didn’t pay too much
attention to it.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, then, the real fact is you don’t know much about it?
Mrs. GRANT. I really don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. You heard something about jeeps about that time, but you
are not in a position really to say that you know yea or nay—yes or
no—whether Jack’s visit to Havana with McWillie had to do with jeeps or
not; isn’t that right?
Mrs. GRANT. Do you know that I didn’t know at the time he was in
Havana. I knew this a few years later.
Mr. HUBERT. What I mean is—the real fact is you don’t have any
knowledge of it—of the real facts?
Mrs. GRANT. I have no specific knowledge of it, but I do know that my
sister told me he was down in Havana. He called Chicago from there and
he said he’s in Havana and I think he spoke to Marion Carroll—that
sister.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Lawrence Meyers?
Mrs. GRANT. I knew a Meyers but I can’t think of his first name.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him or meet him during the first 3 weeks of
November 1963?
Mrs. GRANT. Not that I know—I can’t think of it—no; this fellow I knew
years ago, but I can’t think of his first name—gee, that isn’t his
first name. He used to live here in town on Lemmon Avenue.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Alex Gruber?
Mrs. GRANT. You mean Al Gruber on the West Coast?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?
Mrs. GRANT. I heard his name around the house 30 years—Jack knew him
when they were young.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know that Jack had called him on the night of the
President’s death?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I do.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us how you knew it?
Mrs. GRANT. Either late that evening or the next day he talked to Al
and there was something in the conversation—Al was here early in the
fall and in fact coming through—I was in the hospital and he promised
Al a dog and it seems to me I called him—I must have called him later
on; anyway, when I did call him a week or so later or whenever I did,
I don’t know, but it was after this incident, Al said, “You know, Jack
was crying when he called me on the day of the assassination?”
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack himself tell you he had called?
Mrs. GRANT. No; Al told me. I had called Al myself. I had called Al
within 10 days of the President’s assassination, something regarding to
the dog.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, ma’am; I understand that—you mean before the
President’s assassination?
Mrs. GRANT. No.
Mr. HUBERT. After?
Mrs. GRANT. But Jack has talked to him before too—some weeks.
Mr. HUBERT. But did Jack tell you that or did Gruber tell you that?
Mrs. GRANT. No; Al told me this.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not know that Jack had called Gruber on the night
of the President’s assassination until Gruber himself told you?
Mrs. GRANT. No; it seems to me that Jack even may have mentioned it,
but still I made a call myself to Al in regards to the dog. Jack said
he promised him a certain dog.
Mr. HUBERT. And you say Gruber had been through Dallas?
Mrs. GRANT. While I was in the hospital in November—in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him then?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I did. He visited me at the Gaston Hospital.
Mr. HUBERT. You were hospitalized for how long?
Mrs. GRANT. For about a week.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of your illness; do you recall?
Mrs. GRANT. Tumor and hysterectomy.
Mr. HUBERT. And you were in there about a week?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your relationship with Jack from the standpoint
of, say, personal relationship as brother and sister and, of course, as
comanager—were you on a friendly basis?
Mrs. GRANT. Most of the time.
Mr. HUBERT. Any difficulties between you sometimes?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; lots of times. We got along a lot of times like a
disagreeable man and wife. If my band leader complained it was no good.
If I complained it was no good.
Mr. HUBERT. What was Jack’s attitude generally toward politics; do you
know?
Mrs. GRANT. He didn’t have any.
Mr. HUBERT. To your knowledge did he belong to any kind of
organizations whatsoever?
Mrs. GRANT. Not one that I could put my—outside of the YW—YMCA
or something to that effect or the union connected with the
musicians’ union or AGVA, and maybe three or four private clubs
around—entertainment clubs.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he have any sort of attitudes toward conservatism or
liberalism or any kind of “ism”?
Mrs. GRANT. All I know—he’s a good American and he is far better than a
lot of people are.
Mr. HUBERT. But, did you ever notice any interest that he had in
pro-Cuban affairs or anti-Cuban affairs or pro-Castro or anti-Castro or
anything of that sort?
Mrs. GRANT. This is the exact words when they spit on Stevenson last
fall—Jack and I were going to dinner or coming to dinner and someway
or somehow we were sitting in the car—his car—and he looked at me and
he says, “Isn’t that awful?” He says, “They ought to knock their heads
together.” Now, we were told two young fellows out of college or in
college did that and he says, “To think—a man devotes his time” and he
went on for a couple of minutes, and that was it, and I remember the
incident of—I’ll tell you—he respects high people and he admires highly
educated, cultured people—good family men.
Mr. HUBERT. Well the answer to my question, I gather, from what you
have said, then, is that Jack did not have any ideas that were pro-Cuba
or anti-Cuba or pro-Castro or anti-Castro?
Mrs. GRANT. He was against communism from the beginning of when it even
entered his mind. I don’t know what year—maybe 35 years ago.
Mr. HUBERT. How did he express himself on that?
Mrs. GRANT. He didn’t have to—from the things he done—was too
American—too much American.
Mr. HUBERT. But my point is—I gather from that that he never discussed
with you his feelings about communism or anything—it’s just that you
observed that?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I’m not an intellectual on those subjects, to be
honest about it.
Mr. HUBERT. Was he the type of man that would be interested in these
subjects himself?
Mrs. GRANT. No; not to express it openly or fight with it—in this
manner, if you said anything against anybody or anything big of our
country that is Americanism—you might as well—he would knock the hell
out of you.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, what you are saying to me is that if he has
any kind of “ism” at all, it would be Americanism?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right—he has that—he does have that—that’s his
greatest.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack never married, did he?
Mrs. GRANT. No; he was engaged to a young lady here.
Mr. HUBERT. What generally was his attitude toward women; do you know?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, in his late life I think he was sort of a playboy
myself, but in his early life he wanted to get married. There were
several individuals he had a great love for and the trouble is, he
picked on women who were of means and he couldn’t give them what they
wanted. He could tell from the way they were reared or their attitude,
and how they expressed themselves when they get married—what they
wanted, and I think it sort of cooled him toward making it. He liked
women. He was a real man.
Mr. HUBERT. I understood he took good care of himself physically?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In the sense that he took physical exercise regularly?
Mrs. GRANT. And the truth is, he has a great sympathy for women who are
left with hardships and maybe it started with me or my mother—if they
have to work and do a lot of things—it was in the back of his mind.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack didn’t drink very much, did he?
Mrs. GRANT. He didn’t drink a fifth of liquor a year. When we went out,
we ordered two drinks, I would drink mine and have to drink two-thirds
of his. Then, we were ashamed to sit there and he would order it
again—not that I’m such a big drinker, but that’s what he did.
Mr. HUBERT. What about smoking—he didn’t smoke either, did he?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t remember but once he had a cigar in his mouth,
a couple of years ago at a party and maybe he had three or four
cigarettes in his life, that I know of.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you and he have any difficulties about the girl that he
was going out with one time and I think Rabbi Silverman had to kind of
intervene?
Mrs. GRANT. That he was going with? That wasn’t it—it wasn’t about a
girl.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you did have a disagreement?
Mrs. GRANT. A very big disagreement—early this summer of 1963—it was in
the early part of the summer. It was over money. He had $800 or $900
and he wanted to pay bills and somebody encountered him who needed
their car fixed or something and I think he paid for the car and he
didn’t pay the electric bills, and when he went to jail in November—3
months of the Carousel’s bill on the electric company wasn’t paid and
it ran almost $800 or $900 for 3 months.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the particular argument about then—that he had
loaned some money to someone?
Mrs. GRANT. No; it was not the first occasion only—this one—that’s
the time that I blew my top and I had been sick—I have been in very
bad physical condition and he wanted me to get out of the club, and
Leo Torti who worked for us on weekends told him that I was having a
difficult time and I should be in the hospital and he said, “I gave you
money to go to the hospital,” and he gave me a push and I had just got
some new high heeled shoes and I went back about 8 feet and I hurt my
arm and my shoulder and he wanted me out of the Vegas Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Whose car did he have repaired with the money you thought
he should have used for the lights?
Mrs. GRANT. Some family man—he does that—I haven’t the least idea and I
don’t think he did either.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you find out it was used to repair someone’s car?
Mrs. GRANT. Some man come in my club weeks later and says, “Your
brother was in,” and I didn’t even know this man’s business, and he
said he works there as a car mechanic and he says, “He got someone’s
car out of hock,” so I figured maybe it was his car—I didn’t think of
it.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was that man, do you know?
Mrs. GRANT. Some customer at the Vegas Club—if I saw him, I would know
him.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember his name?
Mrs. GRANT. No; but I knew his appearances. He was one like the
regulars who come about every month one time.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what kind of car he drove?
Mrs. GRANT. No; I was in the club—I wouldn’t know what the patrons
were driving, but he did repair someone’s car and it was a family man
that was supposed to go on the road or some darn thing and if I’m not
mistaken, as far as I know, my brother never got the money back. It
wasn’t $800 worth of repairs, but these are the things that he did.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the twistboard deal, can you tell us about that?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he met a man—I think this man lives in Fort Worth and
I think his name is out there somewhere and it says a plastic company
on that thing—I’m almost sure it is the same man, and this man was
manufacturing them and Jack had a deal with him to cover Texas, and if
it went good, Jack would get the whole United States. In fact, I think
somewhere in my apartment there might be a twistboard. I don’t know if
I ever saw the man or not, but I believe he is in either Arlington or
Fort Worth, lived there, and there is a twistboard that Jack—he sold
quite a number—he sent some out to different people.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Earl interested in that?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know. Earl’s partner, I think, is a friend that he
knows—we call him George—in a laundry in Detroit. Whether he was or
has been—I don’t think Earl wanted—in Earl’s business with this man, I
think the contract reads he cannot go into another business. I may be
wrong, but I’m almost sure that’s what I remember Earl saying at one
time.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether Earl had any interest in the twistboard
operations at all?
Mrs. GRANT. I doubt it, unless he advanced Jack some money, but I don’t
think there was that much money put into it. The man let Jack have,
say, a hundred twistboards and he paid for them and I don’t know too
much about it, but I did have them in the club and we gave them away as
prizes and I know Jack contacted weight salons where women go to reduce
about them.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember having any contact whatsoever with Ralph
Paul?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. During the period from November 22 through November 24, up
until the time Oswald was shot?
Mrs. GRANT. Me?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t think I even talked to him during those days.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s what I mean.
Mrs. GRANT. You know, I assume him and Jack were very good friends.
Mr. HUBERT. I’m not suggesting to the contrary.
Mrs. GRANT. He never did call me and I never called him—I don’t
remember calling him. I have called him many times since then.
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I know, but I’m talking about during this particular
period of 3 days.
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t think he has ever called me—I have called him.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean—let’s restrict ourselves for the moment to the
three days of November 22, 23, and 24.
Mrs. GRANT. He may have called me on the 24th of November.
Mr. HUBERT. After Oswald was shot?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, there was at least 20 calls when I did not pick up
the phone—people in my home did.
Mr. HUBERT. No, ma’am; that’s not what I’m talking about but let me get
at it this way—was there any contact between you and Ralph Paul from
the time the President was shot until the time Oswald was shot?
Mrs. GRANT. No; definitely not. Can I go back with something?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes, ma’am.
Mrs. GRANT. Let me explain about this Raymond Jones. He worked for 19
years at the Dallas Athletic Club and when Jack got in trouble, the
very next week he had made a remark to his boss, whoever he is, “I’m
going to see my friend,” they said, “Where are you going?” And he said,
“I’m going to see my friend,” and they said, “Who is your friend?” And
he said, “Jack Ruby.” They told him that if he went to see Jack that he
didn’t have a job. He says, “Well,”—he came back and he went to see
Jack and he couldn’t get in and he came to see me at the Club and he
says he just quit. I said, “After 19 years?”
Mr. HUBERT. The Vegas was closed too, was it not?
Mrs. GRANT. It was closed on and off a few times after that.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I mean, the Vegas was closed on November 22, November
23, and November 24?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, 2 days after that—it was closed for 5 days.
Mr. HUBERT. And then ultimately it was sold?
Mrs. GRANT. Then, I opened it again and I closed it and I opened it for
New Year’s and I closed it permanently January 4.
Mr. HUBERT. Until when?
Mrs. GRANT. Until someone else bought it—it wasn’t in operation until
this woman got her license, which was about the 1st of March.
Mr. HUBERT. And of course the Carousel closed too because of the
license lapsing—the liquor license?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; they closed February the 12th, from what I understand—
their liquor license was revoked.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, let’s take a break for a few minutes.
Mrs. GRANT. You mentioned a man’s name McKeown or something like that;
may I ask you what he does?
Mr. BURLESON. Let’s take a break now, Eva.
(The deposition proceedings were recessed as heretofore stated and
continued as hereinafter shown.)
Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show that the deposition is continuing after
the recess at 9:10 p.m. and that Mr. Burleson will ask some questions
with respect to the block of questions and the areas covered by those
questions before I go on.
Mr. BURLESON. Mrs. Grant, you were saying out at the Vegas Club that
the employees were paid in cash, and you mentioned something about
giving them some type of check with their name on it. Would the
transaction be such that you would give them a check and then cash the
check for them in effect?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s exactly it, but the check never went through the
bank procedure. It was like a voucher that they had received that money
on.
Mr. BURLESON. Was it on a regular bank draft that it was made out on?
Mrs. GRANT. Most of the time.
Mr. BURLESON. And the net effect would be that you would give them a
check and then cash it for them and take the check back and give them
cash?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I put the check in an envelope and I would have—like
your salary is $65, withholding and social security, and write on the
back of the envelope that, and a lot of them kept their envelopes and a
lot of them threw it out and they had signed the check and returned it
and the balance of what money they should receive was in there.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, you were in the hospital the first part of November
1963?
Mrs. GRANT. I was sick for a solid week.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, you had been having some trouble for quite some time?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. BURLESON. And as a matter of fact, Jack had been trying to get you
to go into the hospital because the doctors had advised him and you
that you needed this operation immediately? And you had been prepared
on at least one, or maybe more than one occasion, to go to the hospital
and everything had been arranged for the operation and you backed out
at the last moment?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. BURLESON. And Jack knew that you were having this trouble and knew
that the doctors recommended that, and you talked with your doctors
about this?
Mrs. GRANT. All through the whole week.
Mr. BURLESON. And finally he was able to get you in the hospital there
the first part of November 1963; is that correct?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. And you then had what—a partial or complete hysterectomy,
or do you know?
Mrs. GRANT. I know they took out a tremendous tumor and a lot of
things—I didn’t ask because I don’t know what parts it was.
Mr. BURLESON. Who was the doctor?
Mrs. GRANT. Bill Aranov.
Mr. BURLESON. Then you got out of the hospital 7 days after the 6th,
which would have been about the 13th?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. BURLESON. And that was in the middle of a week—about a Wednesday,
wasn’t it?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; Wednesday—that’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, were you given some medication after you left the
hospital?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, not for a few days, I would say, but about the third
or fourth day I got pretty bad.
Mr. BURLESON. You started what—hurting and being in pain?
Mrs. GRANT. Tremendous pain.
Mr. BURLESON. And did this doctor that had operated on you prescribe
some pills?
Mrs. GRANT. His coworker or assistant—I think his name is Dr. Bookatz.
Mr. BURLESON. But, at any rate, a doctor did prescribe some pills. What
type of pills were they, do you know?
Mrs. GRANT. I believe that they have codeine in it.
Mr. BURLESON. What would be the effect on you that these pills would
have?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, they put me into a trance and made my body stiff and
I didn’t have any more pain but I wasn’t as alert as I usually was.
Mr. BURLESON. Did it affect your thinking?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. Did Jack visit you in the hospital?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; two or three times a day—mostly two times anyway.
Mr. BURLESON. And called on the phone sometimes?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; and sent me three bouquets of flowers and
everything.
Mr. BURLESON. And how long did you take this medicine after you started
taking it—2 or 3 days after you got out of the hospital?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I really didn’t start to take it until the weekend
after I was home.
Mr. BURLESON. That would have been the weekend about the 16th?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. BURLESON. And how long did you take it?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, there was 1 or 2 days I cut down and then I—about the
21st, which was a Thursday, I had an unusual severe pain and I started
all over again.
Mr. BURLESON. Taking heavy doses of it?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, they are tablets and I called his nurse and she
suggested to take them but not as often as I did when I complained it
threw me into a trance but it still did, because I am not a pill taker
and I guess pills work a little better on me.
Mr. BURLESON. Were you taking pills on the day of the 22d of November?
Mrs. GRANT. I already had two pills by the time the President was
assassinated—these pills are prescribed one every 4 hours.
Mr. BURLESON. Do you subscribe to the Dallas Morning News or did you
back on November 22?
Mrs. GRANT. No, no; but my manager was very sympathetic.
Mr. BURLESON. Your manager?
Mrs. GRANT. My manager brought it up every day she came to the
apartment.
Mr. BURLESON. That’s your manager at the apartment house?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. And she brought it up—the paper?
Mrs. GRANT. Every day.
Mr. BURLESON. About what time of the morning on November 22 did she
bring it up?
Mrs. GRANT. It may have been around 11 o’clock.
Mr. BURLESON. Had you heard from Jack before that concerning the ad?
Mrs. GRANT. No; shortly—it seemed within the next 20 minutes I would
think that he may have called.
Mr. BURLESON. Had you seen the ads by Bernard Weissman by the time Jack
called?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I had seen it, but I’ll be honest—I didn’t——
Mr. BURLESON. Did you see it after you got the paper on the morning of
the 22d before Jack called on the 22d?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes, I did.
Mr. BURLESON. And Jack was talking about it at that time?
Mrs. GRANT. He was.
Mr. BURLESON. And would you relate at this time some of the things you
recall he said at that time about the Bernard Weissman ad.
Mrs. GRANT. Well, the first thing he asked was if Pauline is going to
take over—she was the manager, and do this and do that and get the
napkins and all of this stuff connected with the club and then he said,
“Did you see the ad?”
Mr. BURLESON. This was before the President was shot?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes. It so happened that that whole page was like on the
back of a section—it seemed to me anyway that it was that way and it
was open right on my bed—that section, anyway, was opened at that time
for some reason or other.
Mr. BURLESON. What did Jack say when he called you about the ad?
Mrs. GRANT. At that time he said, “Did you see the ad?” And I said,
“What ad?” He said, “About the President?” And I said, “Yes.” It said,
“Welcome, Mr. Kennedy,” and he didn’t say too much then. He said some
words in regard—like what do you think of it, so I said, “Oh”——He said,
“Did you read it?” And I says, “Yes, yes.” You know, I wanted to get
away.
Mr. BURLESON. Had you really read it?
Mrs. GRANT. Even if I did, I’ll be honest about it, it didn’t appear to
me to be bad or good because I didn’t read all the way down and think
about it and I didn’t study it like maybe I did later.
Mr. BURLESON. Anyway, go back to what he said then.
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he said, “Read it.” He says, “I’ll call you later.”
And he was in the Dallas Morning News, I think, at that time.
Mr. BURLESON. He said something to lead you to believe that?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; well, he said—it seems to me, “I’m in the News, and
I’m going to Toni Zoppi’s office,” which was somewhere in the building,
and “I’ve got to pick up a pamphlet.”
Mr. BURLESON. Toni Zoppi being the entertainment editor or amusement
editor of the Dallas Morning News?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right; and Jack had given him an ad a week before
on a certain entertainer and that’s the fellow that made the remark,
but that was Del Mar—Bill DelMar or DeMar or something like that, and
Jack wanted it because, I guess, the entertainer wanted all this stuff
back—that’s what we call writeups.
Mr. BURLESON. When was the next time, then, that you heard from Jack;
was that after the assassination?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. And at that time what was Jack’s state as you recall it?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I was hysterical myself. He must have been crying,
from his voice.
Mr. BURLESON. At the time that he called, did you know that President
Kennedy had been assassinated?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; because Pauline had called me and on my clock it
was about 25 to 1.
Mr. BURLESON. What was Jack doing—saying—or was he crying?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, when Jack called it was after 1 again.
Mr. BURLESON. How was he—was he upset or normal?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, he was upset.
Mr. BURLESON. What did he say?
Mrs. GRANT. He says, “I’m in the Dallas Morning News,” and I could
hear—it wasn’t distinct, but he says, “The people are all around here,
the phones are ringing like hell and everyone is canceling their
subscriptions and their ads—big ads from all over the State,” and he
said, “Did you read it?” And so I read it again.
Mr. BURLESON. While he was waiting?
Mrs. GRANT. No; but I mean since then—I looked at it—I’ll be honest
about it, I didn’t comprehend it.
Mr. BURLESON. Okay.
Mrs. GRANT. You see, I didn’t comprehend it.
Mr. BURLESON. Tell us what else he said.
Mrs. GRANT. Well, Jack said something about John Newman, the fellow
that takes the ads there and he says, “You know, Jack, I have to take
orders from my superiors,” and Jack, whether he told me that night or
later on in the afternoon— he said, “What are you—so money hungry?
That you have to take $1,500 for an ad?” Jack knew a full page cost
approximately that—I mean, he is well aware of that.
Mr. BURLESON. Let me bring you forward a little bit on these occasions
that you told the FBI about in these statements where Jack spent this
time with you at your house—would you watch television during this
period of time or some of the time?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he didn’t. I had watched it a great deal that
afternoon on a Friday, and he came over—it seems to me when he left the
News he came over and came back later on with a lot of groceries and by
that time either I saw Curry or somebody else on the television and he
was saying, “We got the right man.”
Mr. BURLESON. Did Jack see that?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know—I really don’t know. I tell you—usually under
those pills, I thought I heard it plenty that day, and we got sick when
we were talking about that.
Mr. BURLESON. Did you and Jack talk about Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs. GRANT. He had made very few remarks— he says, “He’s a creep.” You
see, “a creep” is a real low life to Jack and “what a creep he is,” he
says, and he was sick—he went in the bathroom.
Mr. BURLESON. Did he actually vomit?
Mrs. GRANT. He did not—he was sick to his stomach and he cried, he
looked terrible—he just wasn’t himself, and truthfully, so help me, I
remember even my mother’s funeral—it just killed him. He said this,
“Someone tore my heart out,” and he says, “I didn’t even feel so bad
when pops died because pappa was an old man. He was close to 90.”
Mr. BURLESON. What did Jack have to say about President Kennedy?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, all I know is that it just killed him. I’ll tell you
the truth—he sat there like it wasn’t worth life—like he thought they
were out to get the world, the whole world, and this was part of it.
Mr. BURLESON. All right. He was very respectful of President Kennedy as
a man and as a President?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, he admired him—he thought this man was a great man
of courage. If I said anything like I said there—something about
his brother and integration, he said, “This man is greater, than
Lincoln”—the same night.
Mr. BURLESON. Did Jack ever have an occasion to say anything to you
about a letter that was in the newspaper that was written by some man,
purportedly to President Kennedy’s daughter, Caroline?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know about that, but the week—the same week of
the assassination—I think it was Monday or Tuesday—it was that week,
there was a picture of the President sitting behind the desk just like
you are and John-John was sitting at the front and you could see him
playing around, I think it was his father’s feet, and he called it
his house—I think, let me put it this way: My brother says, “This kid
don’t know his father is the President and the father don’t act like
a President.” He meant that he was just like a good guy—like acting
ordinarily, like he wasn’t of wealth or power—he was just like the
average young man and Jack looked at him as even being much younger
than he was.
Mr. BURLESON. But you don’t know anything about such a letter being in
the paper that Jack saw?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know—if he did, I don’t know it. I’ll tell you, I
don’t know about that picture—it was the first week that I was home.
Mr. BURLESON. On Saturday, the times that Jack was in your house, do
you recall if he watched any television?
Mrs. GRANT. No—very little. Saturday he came in with three pictures,
and at the left hand corner, they were postal card pictures and he told
me what he did. He went home and he couldn’t sleep—he got Larry out of
bed and George Senator, and I thought he was nuts, I’ll be honest with
you about it, so help me.
Mr. HUBERT. Who?
Mrs. GRANT. I thought my brother Jack was plain nuts.
Mr. BURLESON. Is that when he went out in the middle of the morning and
took the pictures?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right; and he didn’t know exactly where he saw
it—that was the worst part of it and Larry told me that later on when
they found him, he came back to it and they drove around and waited for
daylight and he showed Larry how to take the pictures.
Mr. BURLESON. You are talking about the “Impeach Earl Warren” sign?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right—all of this got in Jack’s mind that some
Communist—no, no—he didn’t use the word “Communist”. I think he said
“Some outfit or some lousy guy,” or something was putting up signs like
that.
Mr. BURLESON. Did Jack tell you what he was going to do with this
picture?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. What?
Mrs. GRANT. First, he showed it to me—three little pictures.
Mr. BURLESON. You actually saw the pictures?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes—I saw them—they are postal cards—laying out on my white
table. They were this big (indicating).
Mr. BURLESON. These are pictures of “Impeach Earl Warren” signs?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; and they looked like the American flag.
Mr. BURLESON. And it was on this Polaroid film?
Mrs. GRANT. The camera is still at my house, so that’s the same camera,
I’m sure.
Mr. BURLESON. All right.
Mrs. GRANT. It was like a postal card picture. It seems to me in the
left hand corner was that, and at the bottom it said, “Belmont—Impeach
Earl Warren,” and a box number and it said, “Belmont, Massachusetts.”
Mr. BURLESON. What did Jack tell you as he showed you those pictures?
Mrs. GRANT. He called Stanley because he had a lot of faith in him.
Mr. BURLESON. Stanley who?
Mrs. GRANT. Stanley Kaufman; an attorney. This is another wonderful
American, and he said, “Stanley,” and he told him about the pictures
and then he talked to me, he says, “You know what, I went down to the
post office and the newspaper box—the post office box——”
Mr. BURLESON. The newspaper box of Bernard Weissman’s ad?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes—“It’s so stuffed with mail,” he said to the clerk, and
you can find out now which clerk this is, and on the 23d he was there
at 6 or 7 o’clock in the morning and Larry and Senator should know the
time—I really don’t know that—but it seems to me that’s what he said.
First of all, he figured that a gentile is using that name to blame all
this on a Jew—about that ad, and then he analyzed the ad on Saturday
and he saw the black border.
Mr. BURLESON. Will you tell me what Jack said he was going to do with
these pictures?
Mrs. GRANT. He talked to Stanley and he was going to take them to the
FBI—Monday, the first thing.
Mr. BURLESON. Was he also going to take them to Mr. Gordon McLendon who
was the operator of KLIF?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he said he was going up there that night. Whether he
did or was there or not, I don’t know.
Mr. BURLESON. Did he mention at that time—did he mention Mr. McLendon’s
name, that Mr. McLendon does these editorials on radio station KLIF?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes—he was very close to Gordon.
Mr. BURLESON. All right.
Mrs. GRANT. In fact, I think he called Gordon from my house. He was
there—and on Saturday he spent a long time with me and he called many
people.
Mr. BURLESON. And he was quite upset over these pictures and signs?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, let’s come forward to where we were talking about
this Al Gruber.
Mrs. GRANT. Yes—Al.
Mr. BURLESON. Or it’s possibly Alex Gruber.
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; it’s Al Gruber—his nickname is Musty.
Mr. BURLESON. And there was something about a dog?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, is this the dog that Jack was having someone build a
crate for?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right; or buy a crate or something.
Mr. BURLESON. And that he could ship this dog to Al Gruber in a crate?
Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me when Al was here when I was in the hospital,
Jack had promised him a certain dog, I don’t know which one it is, and
not a dog, but a certain dog, because Jack had a lot of dogs. His dogs
just had puppies, I think, in the last month and Al had talked to—Jack
had talked to Andy Armstrong—Andrew—and said something about getting a
crate and Al wanted this dog.
Mr. BURLESON. Now bringing you forward a little bit to this episode
that you and Jack had the trouble over that ended up in going to Rabbi
Silverman and that you touched upon?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he went to Rabbi Silverman because we weren’t talking
for about 2 weeks. This was previous to the operation.
Mr. BURLESON. All right; and did Rabbi Silverman talk to you?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. Had Jack complained to him that he couldn’t get along
with you or something?
Mrs. GRANT. Well. I don’t know exactly what Jack said—the rabbi, you
see, didn’t tell me, but I told the rabbi about this money deal. Of
course, I didn’t tell him that I didn’t go to the hospital on all these
times that I had made arrangements with the doctors and backed out.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, you were asked some questions concerning Jack’s
political beliefs or political leanings or political philosophies or
political—anything that had to do with politics, did you ever hear Jack
saying anything about being a Democrat or a Republican or being a right
wing or left wing—he didn’t get involved in politics?
Mrs. GRANT. Now, this is it—my older brother knew a lot of Democrats
and it seemed that we followed in their footsteps, because this is what
I heard as a child—that the Democrats are for the poor people, so we as
poor people went along with them, but we were never the kind that I was
to go out and get votes or boast about a fellow—me and Jack—never.
Mr. BURLESON. You don’t know if Jack worked in any type of political
movement?
Mrs. GRANT. Not to my knowledge. My older brother did—he was a Democrat
and he worked for Governor Horner.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is the older brother?
Mrs. GRANT. Hyman.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, I think you also told me that Earl Ruby’s wife had a
great admiration for President Kennedy also?
Mrs. GRANT. Truthfully, Earl couldn’t get out of her sight unless she
OK’d it, but she was such a great admirer, and you know how much time
he spent down here and money and Earl said she never said a word—she
just loved him.
Mr. BURLESON. You mean loved the President?
Mrs. GRANT. The President—the late President. They’ve got
pictures—little pictures before the assassination—they had all of those.
Mr. BURLESON. That’s enough on that. Now, one last area—
Since, and limit this to strictly since the conviction, you have
visited Jack nearly daily in the jail?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I would say at least six times out of the week.
Mr. BURLESON. What is, in your opinion, Jack’s present condition?
Mrs. GRANT. I believe he is mentally deranged, inasmuch as I’m not a
doctor, but from what he says to me.
Mr. BURLESON. You have now, as of this moment, been informed by a
newspaper and also by me about what Jack attempted to do today?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I have.
Mr. BURLESON. And you were informed and knew of what Jack had attempted
to do about a month ago when he rammed his head up against the wall,
were you not?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. What has Jack told you as to what you should do with and
to yourself?
Mrs. GRANT. He wants me to do away with myself.
Mr. BURLESON. Does he give you a reason why?
Mrs. GRANT. He thinks they are going to kill out all the Jews and he
has made remarks that 25 million Jews have been slaughtered.
Mr. BURLESON. Already?
Mrs. GRANT. On the floor below.
Mr. BURLESON. And they are being slaughtered where?
Mrs. GRANT. In the jail and sometimes it’s planes going over and they
are dropping bombs on the Jews.
Mr. BURLESON. Has he told you about hearing or seeing Jews boiled in
oil?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes.
Mr. BURLESON. And has he told you about seeing or hearing his brother,
Earl, being dismembered?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; and his children.
Mr. BURLESON. And Earl’s children, and by dismembered, he has seen them
cut off?
Mrs. GRANT. Arms and legs—they are cut off.
Mr. BURLESON. Does he, nearly every time you talk to him, ask you to
check on them, when is the last time?
Mrs. GRANT. I have to sort of tell real lies, that I just got through
talking with Sam and Earl and with Eileen and with Sam and everything
is OK.
Mr. BURLESON. Because he says that they have been doing this to them?
Mrs. GRANT. He says many times he has seen Sam on the second floor and
the rabbi was going—yesterday, they took the rabbi, sometimes they take
Stanley.
Mr. BURLESON. That’s Stanley Kaufman you are talking about?
Mrs. GRANT. Stanley Kaufman.
Mr. BURLESON. In other words. Jack just doesn’t make sense when you
talk to him?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, no; then sometimes he will say one thing that will be
all right and then he goes off into this stuff.
Mr. BURLESON. Has Jack told you that he was actually tried for the
killing of President Kennedy?
Mrs. GRANT. No; but he thinks that they think that he killed the
President.
Mr. BURLESON. Did he tell you that what he went through with was not
really a trial, but a farce?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. And part of a play?
Mrs. GRANT. In fact; his verdict is on the 14th and the next day he
says to me in front of Eileen, “When will the trial be?”
Mr. BURLESON. Did he say it wasn’t really Judge Brown that was up there
but somebody else?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s exactly what he said.
Mr. BURLESON. Did he tell you anything about their introducing evidence
in his absence?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. And that evidence that they were supposed to have
introduced is the fact that he killed President Kennedy?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he just thinks they are blaming him for it and they
think he did it and they are going to take it out on all the Jews.
Mr. BURLESON. Does he tell you many times that you will never see him
again because he will be killed?
Mrs. GRANT. Every time he kisses me goodby that day, he says, “You will
never see me again. Do away with yourself.”
Mr. BURLESON. To save yourself this punishment?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. BURLESON. What is your opinion as to his present condition mentally?
Mrs. GRANT. I have seen him just 24 hours ago and he was in a very bad
state of mind.
Mr. BURLESON. He was in a very bad state of mind?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. BURLESON. How about physically?
Mrs. GRANT. He has lost between 35 and 40 pounds to my knowledge. He
looks like he has been in a concentration camp.
Mr. BURLESON. What is his greatest desire as you know it right now?
Mrs. GRANT. He wants to tell the Warren Commission the truth—he wants
truth serum and a lie detector test.
Mr. BURLESON. The truth being not going into the psychomotor variant
epilepsy.
Mrs. GRANT. He don’t know much about that—he doesn’t even know what
they are talking about.
Mr. BURLESON. He just wants to tell how he felt and how these things
affected him?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. BURLESON. I believe that’s all on those.
Mrs. GRANT. All right.
Mr. HUBERT. When he tells you these various things, do you try to
straighten him out and say to him that it is not so?
Mrs. GRANT. When it first started—I didn’t realize this—I hadn’t said
things—I said, “Don’t be crazy,” just words like that—“what are you
talking crazy,” and then when we got to—this Dr. Beavers into the case
and I talked to him and he read something of his report and, of course,
my sister was here at that time. Every day he would say to her, “You’ll
never see me again. Kiss me goodby through the glass.” You know, if it
wasn’t so serious it would be funny in a way, because it don’t seem
like him. It seems that if I agree with him it’s no good and I have
tried—I realize Dr. Beavers said if you’d try agreeing with him then he
says, “You don’t believe me, do you?” He says, “They are playing a game
with you, don’t believe Phil, don’t believe him.” And I said, “What
about the rabbi?” And he says, “The rabbi don’t listen to me.” And
truthfully, every time the rabbi went up there he came down sick and
disgusted with himself—he’s trying to knock some sense into Jack and it
don’t work—it doesn’t register with the rabbi, you see.
Mr. HUBERT. What I wanted to get at—you all are trying to discourage
him from having these views?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, after talking to the psychiatrist, I said I don’t
know what to do. If I tell you, you will agree with him it is no good,
and if I don’t—I stay there and listen through this glass.
Mr. BURLESON. I might be able to help with that—help clarify that—when
he says that they have just killed Earl or Sam or their children, you
say, “No, that’s not true because I just talked to them?”
Mrs. GRANT. I say, “I just talked to them,” and then we’ll get onto
something and I will try to talk about a friend who wrote a letter or
someone came to see him and he goes right back, he says, “There’s no
more Earl. They have dismantled him.” That’s the words he uses.
Mr. BURLESON. And do you come back and say, “Well, it’s not true
because I just talked to him 30 minutes ago or 2 hours ago?”
Mrs. GRANT. Or, he makes me promise, “Will you call them tonight to
be sure it’s not so—to be sure it wasn’t him,” and I’ll be sure that
it is somebody else on the phone. They can check with the calls last
Saturday—he made seven calls to Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did?
Mrs. GRANT. Jack; he don’t know that he made them, he don’t know that
he made that many. I got the letter that he made them from Eileen at
home.
Mr. HUBERT. He is allowed to make phone calls though?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, sometimes—I think he annoys them a little bit—those
who sympathize with him and they figure he’s pretty screwy, you know he
is really gone—he makes these collect calls to Chicago and they let him
and there are one or two guards that aren’t as nice—I think they are
not as tolerant.
Mr. BURLESON. Let’s go off the record just a second, so that I can give
Mr. Hubert some information.
(Discussion between counsel and the witness off the record.)
Mr. BURLESON. They have a pay phone out there in the jail, do they not?
Let’s go off the record just a second to give Mr. Hubert some
information.
(Discussion between counsel off the record.)
Mr. HUBERT. I have to explain what went on while we were off the record.
Let the record show that while we were off the record Mr. Burleson
was explaining to me the circumstances used in the jail for allowing
prisoners, especially those who are under a death sentence to use the
pay phone in the jail, and that was the substance of the conversation
off the record.
Now, do you have any more questions, Mr. Burleson? Are you through?
Mr. BURLESON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I wanted to get into the matter of the financing of the
defense of your brother, Jack—I suppose we should start with the
selection of the attorneys originally in this case. Now, we know that
Mr. Tom Howard apparently took the first affirmative action on behalf
of Jack Ruby in the afternoon of November 24.
Mrs. GRANT. On the 24th.
Mr. HUBERT. And I want to ask you if you know by whose authority he
took this action?
Mrs. GRANT. Ralph Paul, who knows nothing about lawyers—only knew
Howard and they called them thinking they could get back on bond.
Now, I didn’t know Oswald died until later in the afternoon. I was
hysterical over this shooting and being sick and the President’s
assassination—in fact, my television was on but it was turned down.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was Ralph Paul that called Mr. Howard
for the initial step?
When it came to the charge of the matter which ultimately followed, did
you have anything to do with the selection of the attorneys who would
defend your brother Jack?
Mrs. GRANT. Let me put it this way—there was Daugherty and Sullivan
and Jim Martin, and one guy was threatened and one fellow’s wife
didn’t want him in. Tom Howard pushed Jim Martin out of the case.
I was panicky here. I had asked Tom to call Fred Brunner, Charles
Tessmer—what is the name of this Erisman?
Mr. BURLESON. Fred Erisman.
Mrs. GRANT. Erisman or something like that and also Percy Foreman to
get another lawyer—you know, a super lawyer that I felt—I didn’t know
too much about Tom, but talking to Chicago and people telling me here
and everything, anyway, Tom remained in the case and I understand
he didn’t contact these people as quickly as he should and Earl was
panicky up in Detroit.
Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t Earl come down here as a result of that?
Mrs. GRANT. Not that day.
Mr. HUBERT. Not that day?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know how many days later he did come, but we were
on the phone constantly. He went to the west coast and he went to see
one of the names there, Mike Shore who knows Frank Sinatra there and we
figured that they would know somebody and that’s how Belli came into
the picture. Now, that is that part of the picture. Now, we didn’t have
any money.
Mr. HUBERT. What about Tonahill, how did he get in?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh: he was a friend of Belli’s—Belli invited him in—as much
as I know.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Tonahill came in after Belli did; is that
correct?
Mrs. GRANT. Or maybe together—they were together I think on insurance
cases previously—I assume this.
Mr. HUBERT. So, Belli chose a local lawyer, as it were, to go along
with him; is that the idea?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, Tom was still in the case. Tom called him right away.
Mr. HUBERT. Called who?
Mrs. GRANT. You know more about that—Tom got us an investigator, Bob
Dennison.
Mr. BURLESON. You made the statement that Tom called you?
Mrs. GRANT. Tom called you.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean Phil Burleson?
Mrs. GRANT. Phil Burleson.
Mr. HUBERT. And ultimately, in any case, Mr. Belli was retained to
handle the defense?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Was a fee arrangement made with him?
Mrs. GRANT. Let me explain that part—this is what I know. I was not
in San Francisco or Los Angeles. Earl told me this—he says, “You’re
looking at Belli—$75,000,” and Earl thought you might as well have said
$75 million, but he says, “I will want about $25,000 to pay my expenses
and I think I could write a book and make $50,000.”
Mr. HUBERT. Earl was telling you that?
Mrs. GRANT. Earl told me words that——
Mr. HUBERT. That Belli had told him?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; and this is what took place in their conversation.
Mr. HUBERT. When you were quoting some sentences there a moment ago, I
understood you to mean, and see if I am correct, that Earl was telling
you what Belli had told him?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes, and I don’t know if there was a contract—I assumed it
was agreeable with Earl. Earl already had talked to a fellow by the
name of Billy Woodfield, the writer. Billy Woodfield, and don’t ask me
how they got connected—I know little about these things—he’s going to
write a short story for Europe, and he probably could help us raise
this initial $25,000 cash. Well, no; he didn’t say that—that was for
his expenses—he didn’t get any money down that day as far as I know.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, the fee was $75,000, of which he thought——
Mrs. GRANT. He could write a book and retain $50,000 out of the book,
but he would like $25,000.
Mr. HUBERT. As soon as possible?
Mrs. GRANT. That I don’t know—he says for expenses on the case.
Mr. HUBERT. How much was actually paid to him; do you know?
Mrs. GRANT. Let me tell you this—the short stories were sold in
Europe and some in America through newspapers. Each paper paid
separately—$400, $300, $600, and the story said, “My story—Jack Ruby.”
I gave most of the story, Jack gave some of it, but I knew this
story—what would you call it—little incidents that happened in his
life, some of it, and some part of the story was right on Friday and
Saturday the 22d. I gave the whole story, you know, I have newspaper
stories of it, and I gave it to Belli, and all these little stories,
we were supposed to get $50,000 from all the different agencies that
bought this to put it in their papers—that’s how it’s done, but we
received, I would say to my knowledge, $23,000.
Mr. HUBERT. How was it handled?
Mrs. GRANT. Earl.
Mr. HUBERT. Earl controlled the funds at that time?
Mrs. GRANT. At that time, yes. It came to the writer and the agent,
Larry Schiller and Billy Woodfield. Larry sells the story, Billy wrote
the story. You know, you need a writer even though you write.
Mr. HUBERT. I’m talking about the money that came to you?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, they received some money on the west coast but they
deposited it in a bank with an escrow deal.
Mr. HUBERT. In what bank and under what name was it?
Mrs. GRANT. Earl will tell you—Earl has papers from the bank.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know that?
Mrs. GRANT. I know it’s in Hollywood and I know Earl says he received
about $23,000.
Mr. HUBERT. It was not handled in Dallas.
Mrs. GRANT. Not to my knowledge—1 cent of that.
Mr. HUBERT. But you say that Earl is the one who is handling the money?
Mrs. GRANT. At that time, Earl had power of attorney.
Mr. HUBERT. He had a power of attorney from Jack?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, this contract was made for the benefit of
Jack, as it were, and the money that came in was put into some escrow
agreement and then Earl was able to withdraw from that and sign checks
against it by virtue of the power of attorney; is that right?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right, that’s right; these people received, I would
say, 35 percent.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that correct—the way I put it?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; but we received ourselves, I think, $23,000—there may
have been $30,000.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened to the money you did receive?
Mrs. GRANT. Earl has checks that were made out directly to Belli, which
I think he himself cashed about $13,200.
Mr. HUBERT. Who is “he”?
Mrs. GRANT. Mr. Melvin Belli. I do know that the doctors were paid and
that may have run to $3,500, and we do know that Bob Dennison received
$4,000. I cannot give you step by step because I do not have it, but
Earl has an accounting of all the money received through the efforts of
that story; however, Earl has spent—I don’t know how many thousands. In
the first place, I think Earl put in $7,000 right away for things, but
he took it out later.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how much has been received all told—you say
about $23,000 as a result of the story?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s as much as I know. This is what I know. There may
have been some money—we were supposed to get money in later, but I
don’t know if we got it.
Mr. HUBERT. Were there any other people or organizations that
contributed any money?
Mrs. GRANT. No; well——
Mr. HUBERT. Or, do you know?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I know. But I’m trying to think how to tell it to you.
Recently we received $100 from Walter Winchell in the last 10 days. We
received $250 a month ago from friends back in Chicago. Then there is a
lot of 5’s and 10’s—I guess I, myself, could not go into that account,
by the way. In the city of Dallas, I received $245 that I had given
to Eileen to reimburse Earl. We put that in a Jack’s defense fund. I
received that amount, then that was December and January—those months,
and then in March or April, I think I also took $110—let me tell you,
the money comes into the county building, you know, the checks, and
when I say I received it, it doesn’t come directly to me.
I typed up all the money on a list and I sent it on to Eileen with
a check for deposit of $110. That’s the money that I know, but if
we will stop for a minute, I know the hundred, the 250, the 245 and
the hundred—those were plus that $23,000. Now, if there is any other
money—did I tell you any other money? I told you everything there was.
Mr. HUBERT. There are no substantial amounts?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, no; listen, don’t listen to those reports.
Mr. HUBERT. Except from the result of the selling?
Mrs. GRANT. The big fee was $250 and the story was sold, and we
received—I would say Larry Schiller and Billy Woodfield took 35 percent
of the money—the writer and the agent that sells it of the story. I
know there was $23,000 came in and there may have been more since then.
Mr. HUBERT. In any case, Earl would have more accurate figures?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes.
Mr. HUBERT. As far as you know, in the handling of the money, it is
less than a thousand dollars that came through you?
Mrs. GRANT. I think there is a thousand in all of this money and a few
hopes. The New York Times was very sympathetic and they put an ad in
their paper. Most papers will not take an ad for what you call “Jack
Ruby’s Defense Fund.” The ad cost $150—I think they took it less than
the ad.
Mr. HUBERT. You paid $150?
Mrs. GRANT. I didn’t—someone in Chicago or Earl must have paid it, but
I do know that, that ad went in. Now, if any other little moneys come
in, I don’t have any accounting of it. I know it came in here—this is
the money that I know.
Mr. HUBERT. And to your knowledge, then, what has come through your
hands is less than a thousand dollars?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, let’s see—$245, $110, $250, and $100—I think that’s
about it, unless I have forgotten some, but that’s all I know myself.
Mr. HUBERT. All the rest has been handled by Earl?
Mrs. GRANT. That was for the sale of the short story.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, at the present time who are the attorneys for Jack
Ruby? That he still has? Mr. Tonahill is apparently still in the case?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, we retained Mr. Tonahill and Burleson from the very
first minute and they are still in. Shall I tell him about Belli?
Mr. BURLESON. Go ahead.
Mrs. GRANT. The day of the verdict I got a telephone call that if Belli
don’t get out of town they are going to kill him.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the phone call was from?
Mrs. GRANT. No; but on the other hand, I think——
Mr. HUBERT. Did you convey that information to Mr. Belli?
Mrs. GRANT. No; but unfortunately, I didn’t hear from him Saturday. He
had a heart attack while he was here, I think, during the trial—he was
deathly sick.
Mr. HUBERT. Belli was?
Mrs. GRANT. There were a few days he went to get a cardiograph and all
that. One of the days, 1 of the 2 days—well, it wasn’t 1 day, it was
3 days, really, but he went to court anyway, and I remember on the
Saturday he went to some clinic here and got all kinds of tests, but
the day before he was almost a goner.
After I heard the news of the verdict and what came over radio or
television, I thought he would die. He couldn’t talk on the phone—he
mumbled Saturday to some member of my family who called him. I didn’t
hear anything until later on—late Sunday afternoon, and Monday I went
to visit him at his suite.
Mr. HUBERT. That was here in Dallas?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right; at the Statler-Hilton. He answered the phone
and, of course, I heard mumbling and there were newspapermen and Life
magazine men—I don’t remember everyone that was there, but there were
10 or 12, maybe about 10 people, my sister and myself. His wife was
leaving one direction and he was leaving the other. She was white as
a ghost and he was white as a ghost and I just didn’t say anything
because they were packed up to leave and I didn’t want it to get out
because he said he was going to San Antonio, but I don’t think he went
there at all. I think he went another direction because he just wanted
to sort of fool who was after him, but it was a very bad day for him
and myself and my sister. I didn’t even tell her that. You see, they
were downtown and I was home in my apartment the day of the verdict. I
was glad when he left. That, and adding up a few other things—people
said, “You are lucky to get him out because you didn’t know the
things.” They said, “They were trying Melvin Belli and they weren’t
trying Jack Ruby.”
Of course, between that telephone call and everything——
Mr. HUBERT. Was that a local call?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, no.
Mr. HUBERT. Or, was it a long distance call?
Mrs. GRANT. No; it was a local call.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a man or a woman?
Mrs. GRANT. A man, and another thing, I know my phone was tapped and I
know—it’s a terrible thing to say, but I have all reasons to believe
that the district attorney has been on it and is still on it. The
only time they got off is when I went to the FBI and complained about
it; that I thought my brother wasn’t protected in the city jail, and
somebody knows every move I was making. It seems my phone was clearer
after that, and truthfully, if the district attorney has any tapes on
me, it should be in on the tape of the day of the verdict, and I was so
sick over the verdict and having this.
Mr. HUBERT. You did not recognize the voice that made the threat
against Belli?
Mrs. GRANT. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you asked to convey that information to Belli?
Mrs. GRANT. No; no.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that conversation last; do you know?
Mrs. GRANT. Not over 3 or 4 minutes. It was the other party speaking.
This happened the afternoon—the day my brother got his horrible verdict.
Mr. HUBERT. That was Saturday afternoon, March 14?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right; March 14.
Mr. HUBERT. About what time of the afternoon was it?
Mrs. GRANT. I would say after 2:30—sometime between 2:30 and 4, it
seems.
Mr. HUBERT. It was a one-sided conversation, I take it?
Mrs. GRANT. Practically.
Mr. HUBERT. And the essence and the gist of the conversation was that
if Mr. Belli did not leave town he would be injured?
Mrs. GRANT. The voice said something like this, “Mrs. Grant?” I says,
“Yes.” He said, “If Melvin Belli knows what’s good for him, he had
better leave town. They are going to kill him.” Now, I don’t know—this
man didn’t sound like a child and he didn’t sound like an imbecile.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him who he meant by “they”?
Mrs. GRANT. I’ll tell you the truth, I was so shocked at the verdict,
and before I knew it he was off—I was hanging on the phone there by
myself.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate to you in any way who “they” were?
Mrs. GRANT. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Or who was going to kill him?
Mrs. GRANT. No. Oh, now I want to tell you about—going back to Monday,
which would be the 16th, there was conversation and, of course, I think
I heard this Sunday too.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s March 16?
Mrs. GRANT. I think March 16 was on a Monday.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s correct.
Mrs. GRANT. But I may have heard this Sunday, that the sheriff—and
there has been threats against Belli—and this is another thing I know,
whether someone is on my phone and leaked it out—it wasn’t me, that the
sheriff is going to give Belli a guard out of town, that he has been
threatened, but I already knew that. Then, I got to thinking about all
of this and I says, “I hope he leaves, I don’t want to have this on my
mind,” but, I knew when I was in his suite of rooms—somebody called
there Monday afternoon sometime and he went to the phone for a minute;
as a rule someone else was answering the phone, and then he went in
the bedroom there and he answered the phone. He had quite a suite of
rooms—three rooms, I think, and the remark among the people there—they
said the sheriff is going to give him a guard, you know, escort him out
of town.
Mr. HUBERT. You mean you heard that that afternoon.
Mrs. GRANT. Too, but it wasn’t—I already had known that from the
conversation Saturday afternoon, it didn’t look good.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he comment upon this telephone call that he answered
himself?
Mrs. GRANT. No; he hardly did any talking that afternoon.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, you mentioned the telephone call, I wonder why you
did so, that is to say, what import you had put on it?
Mrs. GRANT. You want to know the truth?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; I want to know the truth.
Mrs. GRANT. I was not thinking anything about it but he is coming back
for a trial and I told Phil recently, I thought he was going to get his
trial transferred from the Texas Bar Association and I guess he can’t.
I wasn’t going to say anything about it—I figured—he’s never coming
back, but now I am a little scared. I wouldn’t like anything—look, you
don’t want a lawyer in a case?
Mr. HUBERT. Let me finish about this phone call—is there any other
significance to that phone call that you heard him answer? You
mentioned it in connection with this.
Mrs. GRANT. It didn’t look right when he left—left the phone.
Mr. HUBERT. That’s just an impression, though, he didn’t say anything
to indicate the nature of it?
Mrs. GRANT. No; no.
Mr. HUBERT. You indicated that perhaps, I say—you indicated—the way
you brought it up—it could be inferred perhaps that it was also a
threatening phone call?
Mrs. GRANT. No, no; I didn’t mean that at all.
Mr. HUBERT. But, do you know that to be a fact?
Mrs. GRANT. No, no; this was merely that the sheriff said he was going
to escort him out of town.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it was the sheriff on the phone?
Mrs. GRANT. It could be—that’s what I felt, and shortly after this
there was another phone call came in and he went in and he took the
call.
Mr. HUBERT. When you said the rumor or talk was that the sheriff was
going to escort him out of town, I assumed you meant he was going to
give him protection, is that what you meant?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s what I mean, so he doesn’t get hurt. Maybe the
sheriff knows something about this, although he does know—I don’t
know. I only know I was too sick after the verdict to even think about
anything, but now that I know he’s coming back, I asked Phil, I said,
“Do you think he’s coming back?” And he says, “Yes; he’s coming back.”
Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Grant or Mr. Burleson, do you have any other matter I
have touched upon that you would like to bring up at this time?
Mr. BURLESON. I would like to go into some of these things you have
just questioned her about.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. BURLESON. Right at first, Mr. Tom Howard did go down and talk to
Jack on Sunday the 24th?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes.
Mr. BURLESON. And did get a writ of habeas corpus, I believe?
Mrs. GRANT. I know nothing of the court procedures of that date.
Mr. BURLESON. You don’t know that Judge Brown did set a bond on assault
with intent to commit murder upon Lee Harvey Oswald before this hearing?
Mrs. GRANT. I understand it was filed in Richardson. I may be wrong.
Someone told me that, that they did file a murder charge against Oswald.
Mr. BURLESON. Before Oswald was pronounced dead, did you know anything
about Judge Joe B. Brown setting bond and granting a writ to let Jack
out on assault with intent to commit murder?
Mrs. GRANT. I honestly——
Mr. BURLESON. Do you or not?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t.
Mr. BURLESON. Then, subsequently, Mr. Howard had myself go up and talk
to Jack—you learned that, did you not?
Mrs. GRANT. I learned there were about three or four or five attorneys
that went up and talked to Jack.
Mr. BURLESON. Then, Mr. Belli came in town and at the time, did you
hear from Mr. Tonahill?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. He called you in the middle of the night, I believe?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. BURLESON. And did he tell you that he and Mr. Belli were together?
Mrs. GRANT. No.
Mr. BURLESON. Did he just mention himself?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. What did he say?
Mrs. GRANT. He asked me if I had hired an attorney and I said, “I think
Earl got somebody.” And they were discussing it with Percy Foreman, but
I was wrong. They never got to Percy Foreman because Tom Howard never
called him.
Mr. BURLESON. Then Melvin Belli did come in town and met with Mr. Tom
Howard and Mr. Tonahill?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. And stayed out at the Cabana Hotel, I believe, the motel
out on Stemmons Freeway?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I was never at that hotel to visit them—I can’t
remember.
Mr. BURLESON. Earl was in town at the same time Mr. Belli was in town?
Mrs. GRANT. I think you are right there—that they were all over
there—Earl was there for a couple of days but I didn’t go there.
Mr. BURLESON. Then Mr. Belli went down and talked with Jack prior to
the time and he said that he would accept the case, do you remember
that?
Mrs. GRANT. I’m sure he did.
Mr. BURLESON. And after talking to Jack, do you remember he said he
would accept the case at that time?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Burleson, may I make this suggestion—of course, this
is not a court hearing, on the other hand, for the sake of the value
of the testimony, I think if you wouldn’t lead her so much that the
testimony might have more weight.
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I’ll tell you, my mind—I’m just about out of my mind.
Mr. BURLESON. Yes. Do you know if that is when I became active in the
case—at that time?
Mrs. GRANT. I think you came in about—it seems to me—about a week after
this incident—it seems to me that’s when I first met you.
Mr. BURLESON. And do you know if Mr. Belli brought any attorneys with
him from California?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. Do you know who that was?
Mrs. GRANT. I know he brought Samuel Brody.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, after this, there was a bond hearing, I believe; is
that correct?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. And who sat at the counsel table with Mr. Ruby, your
brother?
Mrs. GRANT. I know you were there and I know Mr. Brody and Tonahill,
Mr. Belli—I think Tom Howard was there right along then.
Mr. BURLESON. And then, that actually was on one occasion or on two
occasions that that bond hearing was held; or do you recall?
Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me a couple of times—maybe more than that.
Mr. BURLESON. Then bond was denied?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. BURLESON. Then, at the time of the change of venue, do you know who
the attorneys were at that time?
Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me the same group were still there.
Mr. BURLESON. Do you recall about that time if anything occurred in
connection with Tom Howard and his connection with the case?
Mrs. GRANT. About the picture?
Mr. BURLESON. No; just about whether or not he continued in the case or
did he?
Mrs. GRANT. It seems to me at that time—he was leaking information to
the district attorney’s office, he was in the way of Mr. Belli and Mr.
Tonahill—at least they felt that or they told me that. We had found a
mistrust in him, which is close to that time as I can remember, where
information has come to us that Tom Howard is trying to sell a picture
of the late President Kennedy being shot and half of his skull is in
the air, to Life magazine, and I think Billy Woodfield had told that
to Earl and Earl told me to get ahold of the Secret Service, they came
out to see me and Elmer Moore, and another gentleman—I cannot think of
the other gentleman’s name—he probably could recall—and we went in the
alley because I don’t know if my place is bugged or not, and the Secret
Service stepped in to either squash the sale of this particular picture
or got ahold of it—the films and everything, and, of course, when Belli
found out, he was sick because he said it don’t look right for an
attorney representing a person to do something like this.
Mr. BURLESON. All right. Anyway—somewhere around there——
Mr. HUBERT. May I examine her just a little on that point?
Mr. BURLESON. Yes; go ahead.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever find out whether it was true that Mr. Howard
was doing this?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, since then I heard it was true, but doubly true
there’s some girl that works for one of your departments who heard and
who told another person that there is evidence there is a picture of
that kind in existence.
Mr. HUBERT. You have never seen the picture?
Mrs. GRANT. No; I haven’t. I also heard several days before the
assassination there was a pamphlet put in all the drugstores where you
sell magazines and was distributed all through the city of Dallas with
the late President’s picture, and the top of its says, “Wanted” and the
bottom had a number like a jailman, you know, a convict, and the day of
the assassination, early that afternoon these distributors had a devil
of a time trying to remember all the places they placed that particular
pamphlet, that was for sale for 10 cents or 15 cents.
Mr. BURLESON. Come back up to his question.
Mr. HUBERT. I just wanted to explore whether or not it had come to your
knowledge whether the story was the truth or not?
Mrs. GRANT. This all came to me—call me back on the word “communism”
that I said later on, if you want?
Mr. BURLESON. Do you know anything else about this alleged sale of the
picture?
Mrs. GRANT. Nothing, but Earl told me to get ahold of the men here and
I did and I called the office and Elmer Moore came out and I told him.
Mr. BURLESON. All right. Coming back—along about this time—did you,
Earl, and Stanley Kaufman and so forth enter into some kind of a
contract with Mr. Howard where he would withdraw from the case?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. Did you pay him some money?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; the first week he was in, I had a little money and I
think it was when I sold the Vegas Club and I think I had $1,600 and I
had bills to pay but I didn’t pay them and I gave him $200.
Mr. BURLESON. At the time that you terminated his services in the case,
did you pay him some money then?
Mrs. GRANT. We gave him a check for $2,000—we gave him $2,700
altogether, but I gave him $2,000 when he signed the contract to step
out of the case.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, when the change of venue hearing started——
Mrs. GRANT. By the way, when I say “I gave him”—that money came also
out of the $23,000.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, when the change of venue started and the picking of
the jury followed, who were the attorneys then that were sitting there
at the counsel table?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, Belli, Tonahill and yourself—I don’t remember—I think
Sam Brody was sick and went home. However, Mr. Belli brought in a young
gentleman who came and sat for a while.
Mr. BURLESON. Could that have been Mr. Bill Choulous?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. And that was out of Mr. Belli’s office?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. BURLESON. Then, when it got into the actual trial of the case after
the change of venue lasted about a week, who were the attorneys then
during the picking of the jury?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, Mr. Burleson, Mr. Joe Tonahill, and Mr. Belli did all
the work from picking the jury and through the trial.
Mr. BURLESON. The three of them?
Mrs. GRANT. The three of them.
Mr. BURLESON. And they continued on through the trial?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. And they were the only ones sitting with Jack Ruby at the
time of the verdict?
Mrs. GRANT. You know, I was not in the courtroom all during the trial.
They kept me out in the lobby, but I do know—that is what I heard or
saw.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, within a week after the verdict came in, did you
write a letter to Mr. Belli dismissing him from the case or asking him
to withdraw, one or the other?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. You told him in the letter—what?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, I couldn’t reach him by telephone and since he’s
traveling around, and I’m——
Mr. BURLESON. What did you tell him in the letter?
Mrs. GRANT. Say it again?
Mr. BURLESON. Did you tell him in effect if he didn’t resign you would
fire him?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, yes; words to that effect.
Mr. BURLESON. In other words, he did resign?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think that letter was published in the press, was it not?
Mrs. GRANT. No—I never gave it to them. If it was, it shouldn’t be,
because we only made three copies, the original went to him and one
to Mr. Burleson and one to Tonahill. I didn’t want any more copies
around—I didn’t want that—that was one of the things that bothered me.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know, ma’am, I had the impression that I had seen
that letter through seeing a copy of it in the press.
Mrs. GRANT. If you did—I didn’t see it here, or we didn’t, and we would
have known it.
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know—I may be mistaken.
Mrs. GRANT. That is one thing—that’s the whole thing—the whole case was
tried in the papers.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, after that you were feeling pretty low and sick at
that time, weren’t you?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. Did your family—Earl and Sam and sisters go down to
Houston and talk to Mr. Percy Foreman?
Mrs. GRANT. They did.
Mr. BURLESON. Was a contract drawn up at that time?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; there was.
Mr. BURLESON. Did Mr. Foreman know you had Jack Ruby’s power of
attorney?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t know what they told him but it was well indicated
that I was now controlling. I took over Earl Ruby’s power.
Mr. BURLESON. What did Mr. Foreman do as to whether or not he made any
announcements as to whether he was the attorney?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, he immediately called in the press. He immediately
stated what he wanted, he took pictures of my family and he said he
wanted $5,000 within 10 days and another $5,000 30 days following the
10 days.
Mr. BURLESON. Did he come to Dallas shortly thereafter?
Mrs. GRANT. The following week, I think, he came to Dallas—it wasn’t
that weekend, it was the following weekend—am I right—or was it that
week?
Mr. BURLESON. That week—I think they went down there, if I might help
you a little bit, about Monday.
Mrs. GRANT. He came down on a Saturday—I did not see him, but I spoke
with him over the phone. I thought he asked too much money. He wanted
power of attorney and I wasn’t happy about the contract, because these
contracts have a——
Mr. BURLESON. You had not signed a contract?
Mrs. GRANT. No.
Mr. BURLESON. Anyway, he went and visited Jack?
Mrs. GRANT. And he wanted Jack to come downstairs to take pictures with
him and our civil attorney, Stanley Marcus——
Mr. BURLESON. Do you mean Stanley Kaufman?
Mrs. GRANT. Stanley Kaufman, pardon me, wouldn’t permit it. He said
“This is one of the reasons Mrs. Grant and her family didn’t want Belli
in the picture. There has been too much newspaper publicity, radio,
and television. He couldn’t be hurt any worse and there is no sense of
you getting into this widespread publicity,” and Mr. Foreman and Mr.
Kaufman got into some squabble there and Mr. Kaufman left heated, I
understand, and Mr. Percy Foreman called me later that afternoon that
he was coming out to see me in the evening. He heard I had a doctor and
I was sick. He didn’t show up.
Mr. BURLESON. Did he make arrangements to meet you the next morning?
Mrs. GRANT. He did.
Mr. BURLESON. Monday morning?
Mrs. GRANT. At 9:30.
Mr. BURLESON. Where?
Mrs. GRANT. In the lobby of his hotel—the Statler.
Mr. BURLESON. Did you come down?
Mrs. GRANT. I came down.
Mr. BURLESON. With whom?
Mrs. GRANT. With my sister Eileen.
Mr. BURLESON. Did you meet him?
Mrs. GRANT. I met Mr. Burleson and Mr. Tonahill and we waited, and
we went upstairs and waited—we ordered some coffee and a roll and we
waited there about an hour and 40 minutes. The telephone rang and a
news commentator was on the phone and Mr. Burleson answered it and Mr.
Burleson was shocked from what he heard on the phone, that Mr. Percy
Foreman, instead of coming down to his own room to see us, he went to
the newspaper office somewhere or television or radio—I have no idea,
and made a public display of himself, that he is withdrawing from the
case. He indicated that he didn’t get along with the family and he
didn’t like our attorney—our civil attorney.
Mr. BURLESON. Did you at any time see him personally?
Mrs. GRANT. I never met him personally.
Mr. BURLESON. He then got out of the case and hasn’t had anything to do
with it since?
Mrs. GRANT. No.
Mr. BURLESON. Then, shortly thereafter, did you have an opportunity to
have a conference with Dr. Hubert Winston Smith?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I did.
Mr. BURLESON. And did you, Jack, and everybody sign a contract with Dr.
Hubert Smith?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. Employing him as chief counsel?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes—as chief counsel.
Mr. BURLESON. And keeping Mr. Tonahill and myself on?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes.
Mr. BURLESON. Subsequent to that time, did your brother up in Chicago
talk to a Mr. Charles Bellows?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, Mr. Bellows knew about this case right along because
members of the family have known him for 20 or 30 years. I have never
known him—I have heard of him—they went to him, and it’s got so sick
and sickening here that Earl decided, as a friend, he could help us and
he is in the background.
Mr. BURLESON. Would you say he is in more an advisory capacity?
Mrs. GRANT. Just as a good family friend, and he is, I understand, a
very fine great criminal lawyer and he wants to help.
Mr. HUBERT. And you are speaking of the present as well as the past?
Mrs. GRANT. In the past he didn’t intercede because he figured Belli
would be capable. Not that—now, wait a minute—I don’t mean to say that
they are not—it’s just after there is so much to it and he has heard
how the case was handled, and since Earl went to him.
Mr. BURLESON. And Mr. Bellows did make one trip down to Dallas?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; he did.
Mr. BURLESON. And stayed a matter of hours and then flew on back?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. BURLESON. So that to get back to what we wanted to answer the
question he asked you earlier—who are the present attorneys now?
Mrs. GRANT. Phil Burleson, who is doing most of the work, Mr. Joe
Tonahill, Mr. Hubert Winston Smith, and Mr. Charles Bellows.
Mr. BURLESON. And Bellows is in an advisory capacity to help any way he
can?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. I’m sorry I forgot about some of them.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, going to this money situation—as far as you know,
recognizing that you are under oath—as far as you know, there were no
contributions of any large sum other than the one $250 that you have
talked about.
Mrs. GRANT. That was the largest and the one and only of that kind.
Mr. BURLESON. Have you heard rumors that the Ruby defense fund received
large sums?
Mrs. GRANT. I have heard they got—I think they’ve got close to a
thousand dollars—I may be wrong.
Mr. BURLESON. I mean, have you heard rumors for instance, not too long
ago I heard a rumor that Stanley Marcus gave $25,000; have you heard
rumors similar to that?
Mrs. GRANT. I have heard many of those kind by different people but we
haven’t received it.
Mr. BURLESON. You know nothing about any such large sum?
Mrs. GRANT. (Shaking head so as to indicate a negative reply.)
Mr. HUBERT. She is shaking her head—the answer is “no”.
Mrs. GRANT. Oh. I’m sorry; no.
Mr. BURLESON. Mainly, the only things you know about personally or
have heard about from other members of the family are the sale to the
magazine of the story, which you have told us about, and the small
amount you have told us about?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. And you know of no organization that has given any sum?
Mrs. GRANT. Not that I know—they may be now—Earl is trying to talk to
some organizations that he belongs to like B’nai B’rith, that he used
to belong to—I don’t know. This is what I know—what I told you.
Mr. BURLESON. All right, but you don’t know of any—say—labor unions or
civic clubs or anything like that that have given any money?
Mrs. GRANT. I’m sure—I’m sure they haven’t. In fact, wait a
minute—Michael Levin, another good friend of the family—we know him
only for 45 years and he’s my older brother’s friend since they were
14 years old and he has compiled a letter and is asking certain
individuals that he knows—doctors, lawyers, big business people—to
contribute, and when I talked to Eileen last, which was Saturday, she
said, “We didn’t receive one—” some of them don’t even answer the
letters and some say they haven’t got it or something else.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, there were some reports in the newspapers concerning
the fact that Dr. Hubert Winston Smith was going to raise a lot of
money.
Mrs. GRANT. Well, we hope he’s going to raise a lot of money—we hope he
can raise sufficient money to cover legal fees. He’s interested in an
academy institute of law and science.
Mr. BURLESON. Have you received any money from Dr. Winston Smith?
Mrs. GRANT. No; and I don’t think he’s gotten anything or even worked
on it yet.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, to clarify my position in the thing—you have paid
me, the family has paid me a total for everything, somewhere in the
neighborhood of $700 or $800 or $900?
Mrs. GRANT. At the most—that’s right.
Mr. BURLESON. You are trying to get more together, though, aren’t you?
Mrs. GRANT. Well, now, wait a minute—Belli was supposed to pay out of
that $13,000—$2,000—I asked him what he was going to pay you. He didn’t
pay you?
Mr. BURLESON. Right.
Mrs. GRANT. As he told me.
Mr. BURLESON. Right.
Mrs. GRANT. And I know he didn’t pay you—that was up until the time he
didn’t pay you at that time.
Mr. BURLESON. But I have entered into a verbal contract with you and
the other members of the family for you to compensate me on the appeal
and things of that nature—right?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. I’m through, as far as I am concerned, on that point.
Now, is there anything other than what we have talked about here that
you want to clarify further——
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; I want to clarify——
Mr. BURLESON. Wait, let me finish—or do you think that we haven’t
talked about anything that you feel like is important that you would
like to state at this time?
Mrs. GRANT. We have never received money from any unethical
organization, labor work, gratis, friends, or relatives such as
gangsters or unions or Jack has gotten one dime out of anybody of
that kind, or racketeer money, bookies or any type of, you know,
discriminating businesses of any kind. I know his finances, I know
where he has gotten 99 percent of his money and that is from members
of the family. In fact, they can ask Marian and Earl a good deal about
that.
I also know the night of November 22 when Jack was with me the evening
before—7:15—during that short time he was with me and they were talking
about Oswald, I had made the statement and this is what I said. “Don’t
worry,” and I told it to the FBI and I didn’t see it in the report.
Mr. BURLESON. “Don’t worry”—what?
Mrs. GRANT. “That lousy Communist”—I’m referring to, and I mean, I
assumed this myself.
Mr. BURLESON. And you said it in Jack’s presence?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right. “Don’t worry, that some lousy Communist will
get him before anybody else does.”
Mr. BURLESON. The Communist will get him before anybody else?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s just what I said and I did not see it in this
report—I don’t think I saw it. I did say it because I already talked
to four or five people on the phone and I’m going to tell you why I
said that—everyone on television and it seems it was Curry, which is
our chief of police—says he’s someone that’s come out with three draft
cards, he has been in Cuba and he defected to Russia and I think my
mind is like 40 million other grownups, decided that he was a Communist
sent here for this kind of a thing and the people that I knew that I
speak to on the phone at that time or had been friends with all felt
the same way or talked about it in that way. He couldn’t help but think
that. It’s because what television has presented to the public, and
then this thing in the paper and this was only Friday evening, and I
have made that remark—I made it not only to him, to Pauline Hall, and
to Madeline Blainey and to Emma and to Leo and whoever called I kept
talking about that and made that remark, and I made it not only to him
but to these others, and I kept talking about it because I was imbedded
with that in my mind from television. They kept talking about it—they
indicated he had three draft cards, he went to Russia and they threw
him out and they planted him here and he went to Cuba and he had money
and he was going to hire a plane.
Mr. BURLESON. Okay—anything else you want to go into this to clarify
this?
Mrs. GRANT. Jack has always been a fighter for the Jews. Any—in the
Army, if they look back, he didn’t mind—if you fought and if you cussed
and they said words like sheeny or kike or Jew—he belted it out to
them. I know my brother Jack. He told me of different incidents. One of
the things that he loved about this President—he didn’t care what you
were, you were a human being and Jack felt that this was one time in
history that Jews are getting the break. He put in great Jewish men in
office, they were fit to hold the office, and, of course, we are not
Catholics and we never discuss religion in that effect, but my brother
had such a great admiration for this man. It’s unbelievable.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack ever tell you why he shot Oswald?
Mrs. GRANT. The truth is this—here recently with his head out—he said
he did it for Jackie and the kids, but I think he’s just looking for a
reason.
Mr. HUBERT. No; I’m talking about the first few days?
Mrs. GRANT. He didn’t talk—for 10 days he never mentioned it and I
never mentioned it, but in this white overall he had a little picture
and on one side is the late President’s picture in color. It is the
most beautiful picture of him that I have seen. On the other side is a
prayer of the Catholics. I have never seen my brother carry anything
like that. He is definitely a good Jew no matter what people think.
He had kissed the President’s picture in front of me—right in front
of me like a baby, and he held that card prayer and his lawyers have
seen him, and I don’t know what denomination they all are—we don’t go
that way. He just held that card there, there’s a little pocket in
there—all he knows—let me put it this way—it maybe was in back of his
mind something that I don’t know or nobody knows, but he loved the
President, but he had no idea of doing this. In the first place——
Mr. HUBERT. It wouldn’t do any good, I don’t believe, for you to give
your opinions.
Mrs. GRANT. All right.
Mr. HUBERT. If you know from what he told you, that’s another matter,
but you say he has not told you that?
Mrs. GRANT. This was a shock out of my wits.
Mr. BURLESON. Let me ask you this—he didn’t tell you that, then?
Mrs. GRANT. No.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, something we haven’t gone into and might be relevant
to this—Jack had a great acquaintance with the police, didn’t he?
Mrs. GRANT. Far greater than the average citizen of this city, unless
they were a wife of a man.
Mr. BURLESON. Could you tell us what Jack’s attitude was toward the
police?
Mrs. GRANT. They were very friendly, he admired them, he thought they
were good people. On many occasions some policeman would have a night
off and he would want to take his wife out on his anniversary and it’s
in between paydays, Jack would let him have $10 and he would say, “I’ll
write a check” and so Jack didn’t want to take the check and sometimes
he would hold it 6 years and this check was still in there which they
can see among his possessions. He admired the police department. He was
very close. In fact, he entertained them in the club on their nights
off and I’m positive some have been out to his apartment.
Mr. BURLESON. Do you know whether or not Jack knew Officer J. D. Tippit?
Mrs. GRANT. He said he knew a Tippit but it’s like me—there was a
Tipton, a Tippit, and a Tipin (spelling) p-i-n, and a Tipton, and as
far as I was concerned, even when Payton was talking to me, they were
all the same man, until much later I found out there are three Tippits,
there is a Tipton and a Tipin.
Mr. BURLESON. Did Jack, during the period November 22 through the last
time you talked to him on the 23d or the 24th of November, say anything
to you about the fact that Officer Tippit was killed?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; on Saturday evening, during this 4-hour period I was
very sick and I, of course—I was physically sick besides mentally sick
now over the assassination of the President, and we talked about the
Governor being shot and different things and he says, “You think you
will be all right to go to the funeral,” but I was so sick.
Mr. BURLESON. Did he say what funeral?
Mrs. GRANT. Oh, yes; he meant the policeman’s funeral—Tippit’s. Of
course, a lot of people don’t know—he went to all of the policemen’s
funerals and, of course, there has been a few funerals—if it was a
member of their families and if he knew the fellows he would go. He was
that kind. He tried to pay his respects to people.
Mr. BURLESON. But he did have a conversation about Tippit?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. What did he say about Tippit being killed?
Mrs. GRANT. He said, “You think you will be all right”—and this was
Saturday, and I said, “Yes,” and he said, “Well, do you think you will
be all right?” And I hollered back like—I said, “Yes—yes,” and not to
bother me. I was too sick—I didn’t even want to think of it, but I’ll
be honest, all the time he’s talking to me I had it in my mind—“I’m not
going, I’m too sick and I know I ain’t going to feel good Monday,” see.
Mr. BURLESON. In other words, he told you he had planned to go to
Tippit’s funeral on Monday?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right—no; he didn’t say “Monday”, he did not say
Monday—he didn’t say the date.
Mr. BURLESON. Whenever it was?
Mrs. GRANT. He said to the funeral.
Mr. BURLESON. Tippit’s funeral?
Mrs. GRANT. Yes; but he says—he saw I was sick and he figured maybe I
don’t want to get out and he says, “Do you think you can go to dinner
tomorrow?” And he does take me to dinner.
Mr. BURLESON. But anyway, he had made arrangements or was telling you
that he and you were going to the funeral of Tippit, is that right?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s correct—that’s what he thought.
Mr. BURLESON. But you didn’t feel up to it physically?
Mrs. GRANT. That Saturday I couldn’t see myself going, I’ll tell you, I
just wanted to quiet him down.
Mr. BURLESON. And as far as you know. Jack did not know Tippit?
Mrs. GRANT. I don’t—I don’t know, all I could tell you is that Jack
lived in Oak Cliff for a couple of years or maybe a year and a half
and Tippit, being of that area, he could have run into him and known
of him slightly. He didn’t know him as well as other policemen that I
know he knows. I know of policemen much closer than him, but since this
all happened, one of my coworkers, Leo Torti, showed me a magazine and
Tippit was in our club sometime—a month previous to this—previous to
his killing.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a picture of Tippit?
Mrs. GRANT. It was a picture of Tippit, and he said, “Do you remember
he talked to you up at the front, he was in in September or October or
November sometime.”
Mr. BURLESON. Was that the Carousel or the Vegas?
Mrs. GRANT. The Vegas, and while I looked at him then I remembered that
he looked familiar, but truthfully, you know, after the President’s
assassination and this incident of my brother I didn’t see any
newspaper. I didn’t look for anything to read. I had no television or
radio on—I couldn’t take it.
Mr. BURLESON. Mr. Hubert, I think that is all I have along that line.
Mr. HUBERT. Mrs. Grant, earlier today, as a matter of fact, at the
very beginning or prior to the beginning of the deposition, I showed
you a list of names and telephone numbers and addresses on a document
consisting of 37 pages, marked with a large “E”, and asked you to go
through that list and make a check mark as to every name and number
that had any significance to you at all.
Now, you have done so and I am going to ask, if I may, with the consent
of your attorney, that I now read off that list of names as to those
names that you have checked off, and I am going to request the reporter
to make a special list of those that you have checked off and hand
it to you so that you may make comments of your own, and then after
consultation with your attorney, draft up an affidavit as to what
comments you have to make with respect to each one of these people. In
other words, you have indicated that the names that have been checked
off have a significance to you.
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to prepare notes and with the assistance
of your attorney, draft an affidavit as to what significance each one
of these names has. I understand that it will be perhaps a matter of 2
weeks or so before you can get that because there are quite a number of
names.
Now, I will read those names so that the record will show which of the
names you have marked off. I understand that as to those you have not
marked off, those names have no significance to you; is that correct?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right—I can’t relate them to anything.
Mr. BURLESON. May I make a suggestion—it may be a little time
consuming, but if she could look back through that now that she has
had an opportunity to testify and recall many, many things that she
probably hasn’t thought of in some time—she could very quickly look at
the ones she didn’t check?
Mrs. GRANT. Is it possible that some of those are license plate
numbers—could you tell?
Mr. HUBERT. They seem to be mostly telephone numbers.
Mr. BURLESON. Yes; ma’am—that’s right.
Mrs. GRANT. May I explain something to you?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes; please.
Mrs. GRANT. All right. Jack would be driving along in his car and there
would be a young lady drive up to the right of him. If she didn’t have
a marriage ring and she looked cute and he thought she might like to
see a little night life he would let her pass—he would look at her
license number and copy the number and find out in the city hall where
to send her—her name and address and the telephone—a complimentary card
to come to the Vegas Club—he as a host.
Now, I told this to Payton and the other people and he would send these
people cards because girls would come to the club and ask me, “Where is
Mr. Ruby?” And I would say, “He’s not here.” And they said, “Well, he
sent me this complimentary card.” Once I said something to him about it
and he said “Oh, I sent this to a girl,” and I never thought anything
about it. Finally, when he was arrested and I knew they found a lot of
numbers, I said to him, “What are these numbers for?” And he said, “You
know they are license plate numbers.”
Mr. HUBERT. I see your point—it might be better if we gave her the
whole list.
Mrs. GRANT. I’m not going to steal it.
Mr. HUBERT. I can’t give you this list but I can get these names run
off.
Mr. BURLESON. Suppose we do it that way and it may be that in time she
can reflect better.
Mr. HUBERT. Suppose we do it that way, then, and instead of doing it
the way we have agreed, I will supply you with a list of all of these
names and ask that you look at all of them and possibly you will see
some that you have overlooked?
Mrs. GRANT. That’s right—there may be one or two that I have overlooked.
Mr. HUBERT. And I will ask you, then, to give us an affidavit as to the
significance of any of these.
Mrs. GRANT. I will be happy to.
Mr. HUBERT. I would ask that you give us the affidavit only upon your
own knowledge.
Mr. BURLESON. Not as to what she has heard?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, if she indicates it is what she knows from her own
knowledge as apart from what she has heard.
Mrs. GRANT. These are mostly strippers and waitresses that I know or
have known, or comedians. Listen, what happened to the two boxes of
names and addresses that they took out?
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know, ma’am. It may well be that these are they.
Mrs. GRANT. That isn’t enough.
Mr. HUBERT. Off the record.
(Discussion between counsel and the witness as to the names shown on
the list heretofore referred to.)
Mr. BURLESON. May I ask you—do you want this in one single affidavit,
paragraph by paragraph?
Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think so. I think that the affidavit could be in
the usual form.
Mr. BURLESON. What I am asking is, do you want a single affidavit as to
each one of the names here?
Mr. HUBERT. I think not, I think the usual affidavit form—one that says
that—having been handed a list and so forth, that she has the following
comment to make on each and then in numerical sequence, and as to the
rest of them there is no significance.
Mr. BURLESON. And one notary signature will be sufficient?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. And then there will be just one instrument?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mrs. GRANT. I do want to say this: Do you know Jack in his early
teens and in the early thirties—he and these bad boys he later on
disassociated himself with, they were people in the neighborhood—broke
up Bund meetings in Chicago—do you know Chicago at all?
Mr. HUBERT. No.
Mr. BURLESON. For the record, I have no other questions to ask.
Mr. HUBERT. I haven’t either. Thank you very much.
Mrs. GRANT. All right.
TESTIMONY OF SAM RUBY
The testimony of Sam Ruby was taken at 10:55 a.m., on May 29, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan
and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant
counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Ruby was accompanied by his
attorney, Phil Burleson.
Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Sam Ruby.
Mr. Ruby, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive
Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress
No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the President’s
Commission in conformance with the executive order and the joint
resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you, Mr. Ruby, the nature of
the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death
of Oswald and of the life of your brother, Jack Ruby, and any other
pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Mr. Ruby, I believe that you appear here today by virtue of a letter
addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of
the President’s Commission. Did you receive that letter?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the day that you did receive it.
Mr. RUBY. I believe it was Tuesday.
Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to a
3-day written notice prior to the taking of your deposition, but the
rules also provide that you may waive that notice if you wish and
testify right now. Do you wish to do so?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I do—I wish to testify.
Mr. HUBERT. I would like the record to show also that Mr. Phil
Burleson, attorney at law, is present and representing Mr. Sam Ruby; is
that correct?
Mr. BURLESON. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you stand and take the oath, please? And raise
your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Will you state your full name, please?
Mr. RUBY. Samuel David Ruby.
Mr. HUBERT. How old are you. Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. 51.
Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?
Mr. RUBY. At 11616 Jamestown Road, Dallas, Tex.
Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?
Mr. RUBY. I am a washing machine repairman at washaterias.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Ruby, you have heretofore been interviewed by the FBI
on four different occasions and I would like you to tell me about
those. In order that we may proceed in that way, I wish to identify an
interview of you on November 24, 1963, by FBI Agents Sayres [spelling]
S-a-y-r-e-s, and Eckenrode. That interview consists of six pages—on the
first page I have marked on the right margin the following: “Dallas,
Texas, May 29, 1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Sam Ruby,” and I have
placed my name beneath that and on the right-hand lower corner of each
of the succeeding five pages I have placed my initials for the purpose
of identification.
Now, I ask you if you have had occasion to read this document which I
have identified as Exhibit No. 1?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I have.
Mr. HUBERT. I would like you to express your opinion as to the
correctness of that report of the interview?
Mr. RUBY. They are correct as far as that is concerned.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any changes or any suggestions or modifications in
any way that you wish to make with respect to that statement?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I think he has them.
Mr. BURLESON. On page 6; in previously going over this, Mr. Hubert, I
think there are some things he would like to comment on and I will ask
him about it.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir.
Mr. BURLESON. On page 6, the first paragraph—there is a statement
that “This man’s name was Leo, last name unknown. Jack fired this man
because he said he was stealing from him.”
I’ll ask you whether or not you now have found out or since that time,
have found out Leo’s last name?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I found out his name.
Mr. BURLESON. What is that?
Mr. RUBY. Torti [spelling] T-o-r-t-i; I believe is the way he spells it.
Mr. BURLESON. And as to the second statement there about Jack firing
this man, do you now know that that was not the situation?
Mr. RUBY. Yes: I found out that he was not quite competent as Jack
would have him and there were a few things that he didn’t take care of,
in other words, when my brother told him to do it and he neglected to
do a few things.
Mr. BURLESON. And that was the reason for the firing of Torti rather
than stealing?
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. BURLESON. And subject to that correction you told Mr. Hubert,
everything else appeared to be correct, as I understand it now?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is it correct to state that when you made the statement
that you have just modified on page 6 of Exhibit No. 1 that you had the
impression that the man had been fired because he had been stealing
from Jack and that impression has been clarified since that; is that
correct?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. How was it clarified?
Mr. RUBY. Well, since talking to Jack and at the time—Jack mentioned
a few things that—when I come to the club, which I did a few times to
visit him and see the show and to watch the admission being taken and
put in the register properly, and that gave me the impression that
maybe he just wanted to see that maybe Leo didn’t forget to do those
things.
Mr. HUBERT. You have since talked to your brother Jack and he has
clarified this matter, so that you are now able to state that your
present understanding is that it was not because of an allegation of
stealing, but rather because he was incompetent; is that correct?
Mr. RUBY. Right; and Jack’s idea about managing the club.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you another report of an interview of you by
FBI Agent Alfred Sayres on November 27, 1963, which I have marked for
identification as follows: “Dallas, Texas, May 29, 1963, Exhibit No.
2, deposition of Sam Ruby,” and I have signed my name and all of which
appears in the right margin of this one page document and I ask you the
same question with respect to that, that is, if it is correct?
Mr. RUBY. Which paragraph is that?
Mr. HUBERT. The entire document—I am speaking of the entire document—I
think you have just read it.
Mr. BURLESON. That’s the one you said was all right.
Mr. RUBY (reading instrument referred to). I think I recall when Jack
was hospitalized, I think it was in Chicago.
Mr. BURLESON. All right, let me ask you a question—in regard to the
second paragraph which says—“He said he knows of no time when Jack Ruby
has ever been hospitalized for any reason.” Does something come to your
mind in reference to the hospitalization of Jack?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; he was struck in back of the head, I think he was
scalping tickets at one of the sporting events—at football or one of
those events in Chicago—and the police officer told him not to scalp,
told him to leave the premises where the sporting event was being held,
and Jack refused to do so, and anyway—I don’t know what the deal was,
but Jack was hit on the back of the head with a club or something
like that, and he had a big bandage on the back of his head, and he
was hospitalized then, but I don’t remember what year it was—I don’t
remember.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, with that amplification or correction of Exhibit
No. 2, is the exhibit otherwise correct?
Mr. RUBY. Well, they tell me—I talked to the family and they say that
my mother was hospitalized in Elgin.
Mr. BURLESON. All right; let me ask you—you are now referring to the
third paragraph and a sentence in there that says, “This was the
Dunning Hospital on Irving Boulevard in Chicago?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. You have subsequently found out that it may have been a
different hospital?
Mr. RUBY. Right; after I talked to some members of the family and they
say it was in Elgin, Ill., which is a mental hospital.
Mr. BURLESON. And are there any other corrections or additions you want
to make to that statement?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I found out since, that my sister, Eileen, had somewhat
of a nervous breakdown since she came here to visit during the trial.
Mr. BURLESON. Let me ask you—you are now referring to the last
paragraph that says, “He knows of no other indications of any mental
illnesses in his family.” What have you found out since you made that
statement?
Mr. RUBY. My sister Eileen was treated by a doctor during—following a
nervous breakdown some years ago—we found out during the course of the
trial when she was here.
Mr. BURLESON. Did you find out anything about Earl having any type of
mental disorder, either in the service or subsequent thereto?
Mr. RUBY. Well, here it is.
Mr. BURLESON. You have that in there?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know where your sister was hospitalized or treated?
Mr. RUBY. My sister Eileen Kaminsky—no; I don’t, but she did mention
she was having some difficulty.
Mr. HUBERT. But you got that information from her?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you didn’t know it at the time of the interview covered
by Exhibit No. 2, to wit: November 27, 1963?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Other than that, this document is correct, that is Exhibit
No. 2, is that right?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you Exhibit No. 3, which you have already read,
and that Exhibit No. 3 is an interview of you by Alfred Sayres, having
been dated November 29. I have marked it for identification as follows:
“Dallas, Tex., May 29, 1964, as Exhibit No. 3 to the deposition of
Sam Ruby,” and I have signed my name below it and I ask you if that
document is correct?
Mr. RUBY (reading instrument referred to). Well, the first paragraph
there?
Mr. BURLESON. Let me ask you—in reference to the first paragraph
starting with “Samuel David Ruby, 11616 Jamestown Road, Dallas, Tex.,
advised that he has no interest financial or administrative in the
S & R Corp. He further advised that he has no interest financial or
administrative in the Carousel Club or in the Club Vegas in Dallas,
Tex., which clubs are operated by his brother, Jack Ruby. He further
advised that he is not aware that his name has ever appeared on any
document as an officer in the S & R Corp., or in any way in the
operation of the Carousel Club or the Club Vegas.”
Have you, since you made that statement back on the 29th of November
1963, been informed of some facts that are contrary to what you stated
at that time, and do you wish to explain to Mr. Hubert what that is?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I found out from Ralph Paul, who was also a stockholder,
that I was a member of the corporation and that I was issued shares
of stock in the S & R Corp., but I have never seen them, I have never
received them or have never seen any of the corporation papers, so I
am just taking his word for it, and I still don’t know, but they say it
and also in the Vegas Club, I hold a chattel mortgage on that, which
has not fully been paid off. I don’t know whether you would consider
that a financial interest in that or not. Jack never paid me off the
full amount.
Mr. HUBERT. Does that have to do with reference to a loan that had been
made by you to him?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And at an earlier date upon which you got a judgment in
your favor?
Mr. RUBY. That’s right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, we will touch upon that a little later, and I think
that will be clarified. It is a fact, I take it, until you were advised
by Mr. Paul that your name appeared on the corporate papers, you didn’t
know anything about it until then?
Mr. RUBY. No; this last, this third paragraph, I think I found out from
my brother Earl.
Mr. BURLESON. All right, let me make reference to a particular sentence
in there. In the third paragraph of the statement, “He further advised
that sometime during the fall or early winter of 1960, his sister,
Marion Caroll, visited in Dallas and while here loaned Jack Ruby a
fairly large sum of money. He said she later regretted making this loan
and his brother Earl came to Dallas sometime in the spring of 1961 for
the purpose of recovering the amount of this loan for Marion. He said
he does not know if Earl was successful in this attempt or if Earl paid
Marion the amount of the loan and thereby became a creditor of Jack
Ruby.”
What have you found out since making that statement that might make
some difference?
Mr. RUBY. Well, part of that I believe is true—Earl did come down here
to try to get some of that money back, but I also found out that he let
Jack have some money of his own because Jack was having some financial
difficulties with the Carousel Club. It was changed then and I think it
was the Sovereign Club or the Carousel.
Mr. HUBERT. Who did you find that out from?
Mr. RUBY. From Earl.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he say how much?
Mr. RUBY. No; he didn’t say—he may have said, but I don’t recall, but I
know he says he let him have some money.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, are there any other changes or corrections to
Exhibit No. 3?
Mr. RUBY. No; if he has an interest—I don’t know whether he has an
interest—if it’s in writing—he may have.
Mr. BURLESON. Let me ask you—are you referring to the fourth paragraph
that says, “He says he does not know whether or not Earl Ruby has
a financial interest in the Carousel Club or the Club Vegas at
Dallas, but if he does have, this interest may have arisen out of the
above-mentioned loan.”
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that’s right—that is correct.
Mr. HUBERT. That is correct?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that is correct, but I don’t know about it.
Mr. BURLESON. That’s what you have heard?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that all as to Exhibit No. 3, then?
Mr. RUBY. That’s right—well, now——
Mr. BURLESON. Let me ask you this—you are now referring to the last
paragraph. “He concluded by stating that he has no knowledge of the
financial or corporate structures of the S & R Corporation or of the
Carousel Club or Club Vegas in Dallas, Tex.” Do you want to change that
in the light of what you have heard since that?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Let’s put it this way—when that statement was given, that
was true, you did not have that knowledge?
Mr. RUBY. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. What you want to say now is that you have found out
something since?
Mr. RUBY. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us what it is?
Mr. RUBY. I found out that a certain amount of shares were issued to me
in the S & R Corp. and that I was a vice president in the corporation.
Mr. HUBERT. And you did not know that at the time you made this
statement?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you find out those facts from?
Mr. RUBY. From Ralph Paul.
Mr. HUBERT. And that is the only source of your information, is that
correct?
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever seen the shares?
Mr. RUBY. No; I never have seen them.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever seen any of the books or papers of the
corporation that would indicate it?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. But your sole source of information as to your present
statement is the information obtained from Ralph Paul?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you made any other inquiry about the matter?
Mr. RUBY. Well, we tried looking through the Carousel Club files up
there—they had these metal files. We went through those and we couldn’t
find any papers, any corporation papers and no one of the attorneys
seemed to have them at the time and Stanley Kaufman, who was a personal
friend of his, and he is an attorney here in town, he didn’t have them
and he didn’t know where they were, and we couldn’t locate them.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you invest any money for the purchase of the shares of
stock which apparently might have been issued to you?
Mr. RUBY. No; I didn’t invest any. Jack may have transferred some of
the money that he owed me as a financial transaction.
Mr. HUBERT. What you mean is that he owed you some money and he may
have issued the stock to you?
Mr. RUBY. To cover that.
Mr. HUBERT. As a way of paying the loan?
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. But in any case he didn’t tell you he was doing so?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you any further comments as to Exhibit No. 3?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I show you a document which purports to be a report of
an interview of you by Alfred Sayres, FBI agent, on December 5, 1963,
and for the purpose of identification I have marked that document,
“Dallas, Tex., May 29, 1964, Exhibit No. 4 of the deposition of Sam
Ruby,” and I have signed my name below that, and it consists of one
page, and I ask you the same question with respect to that document?
Mr. RUBY. Well, this first paragraph—I found out that he had—that he
did make a trip to Cuba.
Mr. BURLESON. Let me ask you—you are referring to the first paragraph
which starts off: “Samuel David Ruby, 11616 Jamestown Road, Dallas,
Tex., advised telephonically that he knows of no trip to Cuba made by
Jack Ruby at any time. It was explained to Mr. Ruby that if such a trip
were made it had been alleged Jack Ruby made the trip with a gambler
from Fort Worth, Texas. He suggested that such a person may have been
a man by the name of McWillie whom he has heard mentioned as a gambler
and a friend of Jack Ruby.” What do you now know in reference to that,
that you have found out since that time?
Mr. RUBY. Well, from Jack himself—this was in the Dallas County
Courthouse in jail, that Mr. McWillie sent him the airplane tickets for
him to go to Cuba and to be his guest while he was there.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you get that information from Jack Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know—sometime ago—I believe it was during the
trial—during the course of the trial.
Mr. HUBERT. You visited him at the Dallas County Jail, is that correct?
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. And during the course of that conversation he told you that?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ask him about it or did he volunteer the
information?
Mr. RUBY. I asked him about it.
Mr. HUBERT. And you think that was during the trial but before the
verdict?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. About what part of the trial—do you remember?
Mr. RUBY. It was more or less during the beginning of it—most likely.
Mr. HUBERT. In February?
Mr. RUBY. Probably was.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else to say about Exhibit No. 4?
Mr. RUBY. Everything is all right on it.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that your name and Jack’s—the family name
was Rubenstein.
Mr. RUBY. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. And that you changed your name to Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Correct.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was that change made?
Mr. RUBY. In Chicago, Ill.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was by a regular court proceeding in the courts of
Illinois?
Mr. RUBY. Right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And did you know that Jack had also changed his name?
Mr. RUBY. I didn’t know definitely whether he changed it legally.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you know that your brother Earl had changed his name?
Mr. RUBY. We changed ours at the same time. We were in business
together.
Mr. HUBERT. What I wanted to ask you is whether or not the change of
name of you and Earl and Jack was by a common understanding, that you
all would change your name?
Mr. RUBY. No; just Earl and I had a common understanding. We were in
business together at the same time and we used the same attorney.
Mr. HUBERT. What business was that that you were in?
Mr. RUBY. We were in the advertising specialty manufacturing business.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of it?
Mr. RUBY. Earl Products Co.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it a corporation?
Mr. RUBY. No; just a company.
Mr. HUBERT. A trade name?
Mr. RUBY. A trade name.
Mr. HUBERT. Was Jack in that company?
Mr. RUBY. He was. He was in the company for about 2 years, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was during what years?
Mr. RUBY. 1946 and 1947.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, how did he come to leave it?
Mr. RUBY. We had a little difference as to the policies of the company
and Earl and I more or less agreed on the way it should be run and Jack
had other ideas, and, of course, when we couldn’t agree, we bought him
out.
Mr. HUBERT. What did you pay him?
Mr. RUBY. I believe it was about $14,000.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, was that paid in cash?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; it was cash.
Mr. HUBERT. After you bought him out and you paid him in cash, did he
come to Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Would you say he came almost immediately?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; in fact I think he may have made some trips here before
we sold out, before he sold out to us—I’m not sure about that, but it
seems like he had come down here to visit my sister Eva—Eva L. Grant.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of your own knowledge whether or not when he
got here he had approximately $14,000 in cash, that is to say, when he
came to Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. Well——
Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way—you knew he had the $14,000—you
don’t know whether he had any debts or anything that would have
consumed that $14,000, is that what you are saying?
Mr. RUBY. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, when did you move to Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. In 1955—I moved here in July 1955.
Mr. HUBERT. And what was the occasion for your coming here?
Mr. RUBY. I sold out to my brother Earl in March of 1955 and at that
time my youngest boy, Brion, had a little asthma difficulty and my
sister Eva, who was residing in Chicago at the time, suggested that
I come to Dallas and look into the building of homes in Dallas. She
had some friends who were in the business of building homes, and I
did build one residence in Oak Cliff, that is part of Dallas, in
association with this lady friend of hers, and subsequently this woman
I built the home with, she liked the home so well she bought it from
me and I realized at the time that these building tradesmen here were
kind of hard to get along with. In other words, they—some of them would
drink on the job and material would be missing from the job and I
thought I would rather get into something else that I was more familiar
with.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, as I understand it, then, after you sold your
interest to Earl, you made the decision to move to Dallas on a
permanent basis?
Mr. RUBY. I came down here for a visit first.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you decide to make this your home—to make Dallas
your home?
Mr. RUBY. After I sold out the company to Earl in March, I came down
here in April.
Mr. HUBERT. Is that what you considered to be your permanent move to
Dallas—in April?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I came down here for a visit and I decided I liked
Dallas very much and I went back up north and, of course, at that time
I was in the business of building this home and I told my wife—I called
her on the phone and told her that we are going to move to Dallas
and I went up there in the latter part of June and helped pack our
furnishings and belongings and had them moved down here by truck.
Mr. HUBERT. You had already finished building the home here you were
talking about?
Mr. RUBY. No; I was in the process of building it.
Mr. HUBERT. After you moved down here and that was in the summer of
1955, as I understand you, and after you had finished this building
venture which you decided you didn’t want to continue in, what business
did you go into by way of making a living?
Mr. RUBY. I went into—it was also the advertising specialty
business—then with two fellows who were at that time engaged in it.
They had a company under the trade name of Atlas American Specialties
Co., I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of the two men you are speaking of?
Mr. RUBY. One was Sam Lasser (spelling) L-a-s-s-e-r, and the other
fellow was named Norman Weisbrod.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have covered those transactions in your
statements.
Mr. RUBY. I believe I have—I don’t think they asked me those questions,
although I did mention that they were friends of Jack’s.
Mr. HUBERT. But you actually were business partners with them?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that last?
Mr. RUBY. That lasted until June 1956.
Mr. HUBERT. Well, what was the occasion of breaking that up, or what
happened?
Mr. RUBY. We manufactured a product that wasn’t engineered or designed
properly and we had a lot of rejects and we were having to pay freight
both ways and——
Mr. HUBERT. What was the product?
Mr. RUBY. It was this plastic spinner that you see on these wires in
front of service stations and used car lots and the weather—when they
are spinning around would force them to crack in half and they would
fall on the cars and maybe damage them and they weren’t satisfied with
them and we found out later that this man who made our mould for us
didn’t design it properly.
Mr. HUBERT. Where are Lasser and Weisbrod now, do you know?
Mr. RUBY. They are partners in the wholesale distributing business of
sunglasses.
Mr. HUBERT. In what city?
Mr. RUBY. In Dallas—I believe the name is Mode (spelling) M-o-d-e,
Imports.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you have occasion to see those people frequently?
Mr. RUBY. No; I haven’t seen those people in maybe—maybe for about 3
years.
Mr. HUBERT. They were friends of Jack’s?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did Jack get you interested in this venture with these two
men?
Mr. RUBY. Well, he introduced me to them and he did say that they had a
very good business and that they were hard working fellows.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you invest any money with them?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. How much?
Mr. RUBY. $3,500.
Mr. HUBERT. When you dissolved, did they buy you out?
Mr. RUBY. No: the whole company was dissolved. We just liquidated it.
We paid all of our debts.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any part of the investment returned to you?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So, you lost the $3,500 in that venture?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. After that was completed, what did you do?
Mr. RUBY. In the latter part of 1956, I investigated this coin-operated
washateria business and I succeeded in purchasing and in installing a
new coin-operated washateria at 3608 Oak Lawn in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of it?
Mr. RUBY. It was Speedy Wash, I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was just a trade name?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you borrowed some money from some banks to do that?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I borrowed some money from some banks.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any other ventures since that, or is that
still in existence?
Mr. RUBY. No; I lost my lease—my lease was up and Ward’s Drug Store
next door somehow managed to get the lease on the store and, of course,
I had to vacate and discontinue that place, but while I had that
place of business I purchased the Bonnie Washateria at 2002 East 11th
Street in Dallas and I also purchased another washateria at 2524 North
Fitzhugh in Dallas.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you still operate those?
Mr. RUBY. No; I sold both of those.
Mr. HUBERT. How long ago?
Mr. RUBY. Well, this one at 2425 North Fitzhugh was the Ruby Washateria
and I sold that 2 years ago last March—let me see—that would be 1962,
wouldn’t it?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. In March 1962.
Mr. HUBERT. That was the last one you sold?
Mr. RUBY. No; that was the Ruby Washateria. Then, the Bonnie
Washateria, which was at 2002 East 11th Street, I sold just last
December, I believe it was.
Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you sell that to?
Mr. RUBY. To a Mr. George Cernorsky.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of your selling it?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I had a lot of competition—there was a new washateria
opened up there on the street from me about a block away next to a
supermarket and I was sort of in an isolated corner myself and also
I was at that time engaged in extensive repair work and I tried to go
more into the repair of washing machines and I thought it was taking a
lot of my time and I wasn’t making any money there and in fact I was
losing money, and I thought—why have something like that on your hands
and I would rather devote my time to repair work.
Mr. HUBERT. And that’s what you have done?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that’s what you are doing now?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; but I also since that time—I also purchased a little
manufacturing business in Coppell, Tex., which of all days, I purchased
it on November 20, 1963.
Mr. HUBERT. What kind of business is that?
Mr. RUBY. It was a little stuffed animal business and the name of the
company was the Autographic Mascots that they use around these colleges
and universities and high schools—all of these schools have little
mascots, you know, and the purpose was to have these kids—these various
classes—have their classmates autograph them as sort of a remembrance
or souvenir of their school days.
Mr. HUBERT. Are you still operating that?
Mr. RUBY. No; we sold that—we just sold that recently—April the 15th
this party took over complete possession of it.
Mr. HUBERT. Whom did you sell it to?
Mr. RUBY. To Mrs. M. Frances Cole, I believe her name is.
Mr. HUBERT. C-o-l-e (spelling)?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Is she operating it now?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, I understand that you loaned some money to Jack in
1955; is that correct?
Mr. RUBY. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. How much and under what circumstances?
Mr. RUBY. Well, he said he was having difficulty in paying his Federal
excise taxes and I let him have $1,000, and then sometime later—that
was probably in May or June of 1955 when I let him have the $1,000,
and then sometime later—that was probably May or June when I let him
have the $1,000 and later that summer, it may have been in July or
August, I let him have $4,500, and he had some more difficulty with the
Government on his Federal excise tax and he had to pay off these taxes
or they would have padlocked his club—it was the Vegas Club.
Mr. HUBERT. When you made these loans to Jack, did you receive any
evidence of the loan, such as a note?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir; I had him make out a bill of sale to me for the
Vegas Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that recorded in any way?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I think I still have it at home—I think I still have it
at home. I don’t remember whether it was recorded or not—the attorney
made it out.
Mr. HUBERT. I understand that you had to file a legal proceeding
against Jack in order to recover your money?
Mr. RUBY. That’s right.
Mr. HUBERT. A judgment for it?
Mr. RUBY. That’s right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that a contested suit—did you file suit against him?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr. HUBERT. This bill of sale, was that sort of a security device or
actual transaction of sale?
Mr. RUBY. It was an actual transaction of sale and also a security.
Mr. HUBERT. What you did—you sued on the note, I assume, that was
involved; is that correct?
Mr. RUBY. No; we sued that I was the legal owner of the business and
that he told me he would—in December he said he would purchase the club
from me. He wasn’t satisfied with me as a partner and he said he was
going to buy me out, but he failed to meet his financial promises and
so I kept calling him and so I wasn’t getting any satisfaction and I
hired an attorney. Mr. Harold I. Berman.
Mr. HUBERT. And then he filed suit on your behalf?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And he obtained a judgment?
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that a contested suit or did it go by default?
Mr. RUBY. It was contested—he had his attorney there, Mr. Klepak.
Mr. HUBERT. He actually went to trial?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And you won the case?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. And the result of the judgment was that you were declared
to be the owner of the Vegas; is that it?
Mr. RUBY. Well, that Jack should—he agreed to pay me the amount of
money he owed me, which at that time amounted to about $4,500. He had
paid me some money.
Mr. HUBERT. Was that after you obtained the judgment that he agreed to
pay you?
Mr. RUBY. Well, it was during the judgment—that’s the way we settled it
in court.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the case was compromised, was it?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And the compromise was that he agreed to pay you—what sum
of money?
Mr. RUBY. $4,500—that was the balance that he owed me at the time—at
that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Then didn’t he then execute a note to you or was that just
simply part of the judgment?
Mr. RUBY. That was part of the judgment and we have a legal document
showing that the judgment was entered and agreed upon and I think was
signed by the judge, and I have that document at home. It’s still on
file in the records building—it has never been removed.
Mr. HUBERT. Has the $4,500 been paid off?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How much is yet due upon it?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, about $1,300 or so.
Mr. HUBERT. Was it to be paid off in installments or any period of time
or just what was the arrangement or compromise made?
Mr. RUBY. I believe he gave me a thousand dollars in the Court that
day and they had to take a hundred dollars off for his attorney—his
attorney wanted a hundred dollars from that thousand dollars, and so I
only received $900 and the rest was, I believe, to be paid off in $200
monthly installments.
Mr. HUBERT. So, that in any case there now remains a balance of $1,300
due on that?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever live in Youngstown, Ohio?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. During what period?
Mr. RUBY. From 1939 to 1941. I registered there for the draft.
Mr. HUBERT. What was your occupation there?
Mr. RUBY. I was what they call a siding applicator—you know—these
siding manufacturers like Johns-Manville and Ruberoid and these various
other siding manufacturers. I worked for a construction company and
we secured contracts and I was one of their—what they call—shingle
applicator.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of the company? Do you recall?
Mr. RUBY. The National Improvement Company.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you work with it only?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. And that was for a period of 2 years?
Mr. RUBY. I think it was 3 years—1939, inclusive—1939 to 1941.
Mr. HUBERT. And then you went into the draft?
Mr. RUBY. And then I worked in Chicago for a few months and then I went
and enlisted in the Navy in February 1942, and they turned me down
because of my eyes, and I went to the draft board and tried to find out
how soon my number was coming up and they took my name and address and
it was within the next few days that they let me know that they wanted
me to come down for an examination.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Ralph Paul?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; very well.
Mr. HUBERT. How long have you known him?
Mr. RUBY. Well, practically since I have been in Dallas—since 1955, I
would say.
Mr. HUBERT. How did you meet him?
Mr. RUBY. Through Jack at the Vegas Club.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you ever in partnerships with him yourself?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir—I forgot to mention that. I just recall that now. We
were in an ice cream business venture.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of that; do you know?
Mr. RUBY. I think it was the Rainbow Ice Cream Palace.
Mr. HUBERT. Where was it located?
Mr. RUBY. In Wynnewood Shopping Center.
Mr. HUBERT. What happened to that venture?
Mr. RUBY. It just wasn’t successful.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did it last?
Mr. RUBY. Well, let’s see—about 4 months I believe—March, April, May,
and June—I think it only lasted 4 months.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you had any other business arrangements or enterprises
with Paul?
Mr. RUBY. No—but I was in another business with a fellow named Robert
Eisman.
Mr. HUBERT. I-s-m-a-n [spelling]?
Mr. RUBY. No—[spelling] E-i-s-m-a-n.
Mr. HUBERT. What was that business?
Mr. RUBY. Washateria—we were partners in a coin-operated
business—washateria at the time—two of them.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the name of this?
Mr. RUBY. One was the—what was the name on it—it was on 1713 South
Ervay Street.
Mr. HUBERT. That was different from the other two you have mentioned
here?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. How long did that arrangement last?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, about 3 years.
Mr. HUBERT. When was it dissolved?
Mr. RUBY. This is 1964—that must have been in March 1960, or 1961.
Mr. HUBERT. Is this man Eisman still in Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. No; he’s living in Fort Worth at the present time—he is in
the washateria—not washateria, but coin-operated washing machines at
the present time.
Mr. HUBERT. What caused you to dissolve that arrangement with Mr.
Eisman?
Mr. RUBY. We had an awful lot of vandalism there in that neighborhood.
They cut down water hoses and they would break into the machines and
there was just too much vandalism to be profitable.
Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been charged or convicted of any felonies?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. What has been your relationship with Jack since you came to
live in Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. How do you mean that?
Mr. HUBERT. Well, as brothers—do you visit socially often—you have told
us about some of the financial matters between you and I was wondering
what was the personal relationship between you?
Mr. RUBY. Well, outside of that difference we had about the club, he
used to come over and visit us for the Jewish holidays and sometimes we
would invite him over for an evening to dinner.
Mr. HUBERT. On the average, how often did you see him a year, for
instance?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I would see him, oh, maybe anywhere from three to six
times a year.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have other contacts with him by phone or otherwise?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; we talked to him on the phone on different occasions.
There was nothing important—I mean—just about maybe something about his
family or how he was doing or inquire about the children.
Mr. HUBERT. What about your relationship with his sister, Mrs. Eva
Grant?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I have seen her more often and we are off and on like
brothers and sisters and we argue at different times and maybe in a
week or so we’ll forget about it and make up. She has her own views on
things.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to see Jack during the period
September 25 through November 24, 1963?
Mr. RUBY. September—you say?
Mr. HUBERT. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. Yes—September 25, yes, I believe I did. I may have seen him
at the club one night and then on one occasion, I remember it was the
week of Halloween, because the man I was working for went out of town
and Jack called me—he called me—I don’t know whether he called me or
my wife called me, and wanted me to go to Fort Worth with him to look
at this twistboard factory which he was handling as a distributor at
that time and I wasn’t too anxious to go, but he insisted and he said
maybe if that distributing business went all right, he would like me to
become interested in that.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go with him then?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I did. I had some work but I thought I could make it up
either later in the day or the following day—just repairing washing
machines. I was working for a man that had three washaterias at the
time and I took a ride with him to Fort Worth to see this manufacturing
plant.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you enter into the venture with Jack?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know to what extent he did?
Mr. RUBY. No; he told me that he was a distributor for these boards and
he was thinking maybe of going into the manufacture of them.
Mr. HUBERT. When did he tell you that?
Mr. RUBY. At that time.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether your brother Earl had any interest in
it?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know to this moment whether he does?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Jack never mentioned that Earl might be interested?
Mr. RUBY. No—no; he never mentioned one way or the other whether Earl
would be interested.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether you had any contact whatsoever with
Jack during the periods, say, from the 16th of November through the
24th of November—that would be about the week before the President died
until Oswald was shot?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think he called me on the phone a few times and wanted
me to go visit my sister Eva in the hospital.
Mr. HUBERT. Did you go?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir; I didn’t.
Mr. HUBERT. Now, do you remember any other contacts between you and
Jack other than the one you just mentioned concerning visiting your
sister in the hospital?
Mr. RUBY. Well, he may have called me twice on the phone—I didn’t
see him during that period. The last time I saw him was the week of
Halloween—it was on a Wednesday, I believe.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, then, the last time you saw him was before
Oswald was shot?
Mr. RUBY. That’s right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. That was approximately a month or 4 weeks before Oswald was
shot?
Mr. RUBY. That’s right; before.
Mr. HUBERT. And you recall at least one telephone conversation which
you have just made reference to about visiting your sister in the
hospital?
Mr. RUBY. Yes—he was very upset about me not going. I promised him
I would go and then I happened to be very busy working for this
washateria owner and I thought it was more important I stay at my job
and maybe go at night, but he became very upset about me not going and
sort of became abusive.
Mr. HUBERT. That was all over the phone?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he contact you after the President was shot?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir—no, he didn’t contact me.
Mr. HUBERT. Did your sister do so?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. In other words, between November 22d and the time Oswald
was shot, you had no communication of any sort whatsoever with either
your sister, Eva Grant, or your brother, Jack Ruby; is that right?
Mr. RUBY. That’s right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware of his reaction to the President’s death
during the period November 22 through November 24?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir; I had no idea. I was busy at the time—I was working
for this man, Mr. Dean, and I also was doing repair work at night and I
was working pretty late at night and I would get home late and get up
early in the morning and had to be at the job at 8 and so my days and
nights were fully occupied at that time and previous to that, too.
Mr. HUBERT. I think you have stated in one of these statements that Mr.
Paul said he was going to give you 50 percent of the stock of the S & R
Corp.; did he say why he was going to do that?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir; that was after Judge Sterrett denied an application
for a new license and he wanted to turn his 50 percent over to me so
that I should have the obligations of the club, which I wasn’t in favor
of because I didn’t have the financial backing to take it over. I have
never received that 50 percent.
Mr. HUBERT. Why did he want to give it to you?
Mr. RUBY. So that he wouldn’t have to assume any financial
responsibilities incurred by the corporation.
Mr. HUBERT. And you refused it?
Mr. RUBY. I didn’t refuse him at the time, but I didn’t agree one way
or the other, but I suggested my sister Eva take over the 50 percent of
the corporation.
Mr. HUBERT. Were any shares of stock ever delivered to you?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir; not any shares.
Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Burleson, do you have any questions you would like to
ask of Mr. Ruby?
Mr. BURLESON. Yes. First, Sam, have you, since this incident occurred
back on November 24, 1963, had an occasion to have any threats on your
life, your well-being, your future or that of your children, or your
family?
Mr. RUBY. Well, there was one man that called and said he was a friend
of Jack’s and he wanted to come over and he said that he was from up
North—I believe he was from Minnesota and he had come down here to look
for a job—he wanted to get a job and he was a friend of Jack’s and it
didn’t sound sensible or logical and he had talked to my wife, and we
didn’t give him our address or any other information and he said he
wanted to talk to Jack.
Mr. BURLESON. But you have had no direct threats?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. When was this occurrence?
Mr. RUBY. The conversation—well, my wife would know more about that, I
believe, since she talked to him—I believe it was in December.
Mr. HUBERT. You have never heard any more from this individual?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, you have been visiting Jack recently, have you not,
in jail?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us what you found Jack’s condition to be since
the verdict and at the present time?
Mr. RUBY. Well, to be frank with you, I always thought there was
something odd about Jack, but I thought he was just the type of a
person that’s hard to get along with and that was before—years ago—but
since I have been visiting him lately, his mental condition has
deteriorated very rapidly. He keeps saying that people are being killed
in the streets and he hears screams in the building of people being
slaughtered.
Mr. BURLESON. Are these just people or are these Jewish people?
Mr. RUBY. Well, he says, “People,” and then he says “Jewish people” and
he always imagines that Earl is killed and his children’s bodies are
being dismembered.
Mr. HUBERT. Does he say anything about Eva?
Mr. RUBY. No; he tells me to leave and sell my home and get out of
Dallas. He says that the police hate him here.
Mr. HUBERT. Does he tell you to do anything as far as self-destruction
is concerned?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; he has done that quite a few times. He says he is going
to take his life and I’ve tried to talk him out of it, and tell him
everything will be all right.
Mr. HUBERT. He said he was going to take his own life?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; and I have never heard him talk like that before.
Mr. BURLESON. Does he appear to be normal to you?
Mr. RUBY. No; he has that—I don’t know how to describe his look, but
he has sort of a look of a person that is being tortured or tormented
by something and I don’t know what you would call it, but it is sort
of a—he has that look in his face of not seeing you, like he is
looking—staring at you but not seeing you.
Mr. HUBERT. Does he recognize you?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; he does.
Mr. HUBERT. When did you last see him?
Mr. RUBY. Last Sunday.
Mr. HUBERT. How many times since his conviction have you seen him prior
to last Sunday?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I have seen him at least once a week.
Mr. HUBERT. And this condition that you have described that he has, did
it exist right after the conviction or was it a progressive matter?
Mr. RUBY. Well, it has been progressive and during the course of the
bond hearing and the change of venue and the jurors and the trial
itself—he didn’t seem to communicate with me very much. He didn’t have
anything to say to me, so to speak, like he didn’t have all of his
faculties, you might say.
Mr. BURLESON. Now, let me ask you—do you know anything about the
financial situation of the so-called defense fund—the money that has
come in for the defense of Jack Ruby, have you had anything to do with
it yourself?
Mr. RUBY. No; I had nothing to do with it, but I understand they sold a
story. Do you want to know about that?
Mr. BURLESON. Well, we know about that. That’s the newspaper story that
this Woodfield fellow bought?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. BURLESON. Have you personally received any money from any source
from persons who have contributed it to you to use in the defense fund?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. You have not received even any money in the mail; is that
right?
Mr. RUBY. Not one penny.
Mr. BURLESON. And no one has given you any to be utilized for the
defense?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir.
Mr. BURLESON. Have you contributed any of your own, other than the
expense that you have been out personally during the trial and things
of that nature, have you contributed any?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir.
Mr. BURLESON. And have you heard from any members of the family who are
maybe more aware of it than you are that many large sums have come in,
other than this one for the sale of the news story?
Mr. RUBY. Yes: I heard that one come in from one of Jack’s friends in
Chicago.
Mr. BURLESON. Is that the $250?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Who was the friend, do you know?
Mr. RUBY. Kelman, I think his name is Joe Kelman.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know that man?
Mr. RUBY. Not personally; I met his brother years ago. His brother was
a personal friend of Jack’s, Morris Kelman, and they are, I believe, in
the auto windshield glass manufacturing business in Chicago.
Mr. HUBERT. Then, I believe there was another check of some sum from
Walter Winchell?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how much that was?
Mr. RUBY. My sister Eva said it was for $100.
Mr. BURLESON. You were reported as saying to some news media that there
was several thousand dollars?
Mr. RUBY. I didn’t say that. I said it was very generous—I didn’t give
any amount. I didn’t even say whether it was a dollar or what amount it
was.
Mr. BURLESON. Do you know of any other sums of money that may have come
in, of any substantial sum?
Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t.
Mr. BURLESON. That’s all I have. I need to go off the record for
a moment. I need to talk to Mr. Ruby on a matter that we had not
completely discussed.
Mr. HUBERT. All right. Would you like to leave the room for your
conference?
Mr. BURLESON. Yes; please.
(At this point counsel Burleson and the witness, Sam Ruby, left the
conference room for approximately 10 minutes, returned thereto, and the
proceedings of Mr. Ruby’s deposition continued as follows.)
Mr. BURLESON. I would like to go back on the record and ask you, Mr.
Ruby, is there anything you would like to bring out—anything that you
would like to tell Mr. Hubert here on any version of the case, either
something we have already talked about, to amplify, explain that, or
either something new—some new area that you feel like that he would be
interested in?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I don’t know, except that I talked to some of the
people from the Liquor Commission, the Texas State Liquor Commission,
and they think that he may have felt sorry for the Tippit family as
well as the Kennedy family, and he always took it personally when
a police officer was killed. I mean, he made it his business to
contribute something financially when an officer was killed.
Mr. HUBERT. Who told you that?
Mr. RUBY. Well, they are up at the Liquor Commission in Oak Cliff—I
don’t think I know that just now.
Mr. BURLESON. That would be the Liquor Control Board—some of the
personnel there?
Mr. RUBY. I believe that’s it.
Mr. BURLESON. Do you know their names?
Mr. RUBY. I believe one was Johnny Cranks.
Mr. HUBERT. When was this told to you?
Mr. RUBY. Well, they called me up there to inquire whether I was a
member of the corporation.
Mr. HUBERT. And then they volunteered their opinion as to what his
motivation was?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that was what they thought and I talked to Jack a few
times at the county jail and he says he felt very sorry for the Kennedy
family.
Mr. BURLESON. Did Jack ever tell you why he shot Oswald?
Mr. RUBY. No; he never mentioned his name to me. He never mentioned his
name.
Mr. BURLESON. You were in the service?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. BURLESON. I know one of Jack’s brothers was in the intelligence?
Mr. RUBY. I was in the Army intelligence.
Mr. BURLESON. You were in the Army intelligence—for how long?
Mr. RUBY. Well, we were stationed at Langley Field in 1942 and 1943
and a Captain Southern swore me in as an agent, to keep an eye on
Communists and Nazi saboteurs and to see whether anybody was leaving
subversive literature around for the boys to read, and if I did see
anybody acting suspicious to write a letter into a certain box number
in Newport News, Va., which was about 20 miles away from Langley Field,
and have a general theme, in fact, he says he checked up on my family
history and all of the members of the family, and to write just like I
am writing to my family, in fact he mentioned my brother Jack and write
a letter like you are writing, “Dear Brother Jack: Last night we went
to town and we had a few beers and we went to a movie and had a few
dances and Pvt. John Smith has been acting kind of queer lately,” and
he said somewhere in the letter mention that and they would take care
of it from then on, and I had to sign my name Johnny Newman.
Mr. HUBERT. What was the captain’s first name; do you recall?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t recall his first name, but his name was Southern.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you spell it?
Mr. RUBY. S-o-u-t-h-e-r-n [spelling].
Mr. HUBERT. And he was part of what organization?
Mr. RUBY. The Army Air Force—it was the Third Army Air Force based at
Langley Field, Va.
Mr. HUBERT. But what was the specific organization in which he was in?
Mr. RUBY. Well, our outfit was called the Tenth Tow Target. They
used to tow targets and train pilots at the same time for these
anti-aircraft guns, to fire these guns behind the planes.
Mr. HUBERT. All right.
Mr. BURLESON. Do you have anything else you want to bring out on any
subject or matter of any nature that you think either the Commission or
Mr. Hubert would be interested in?
Mr. RUBY. Well, all I know is that Jack had a very deep feeling about
this anti-Semitism in this country and, of course, with the massacre
of the 6 million Jews in Germany, and he had that on his mind quite
a bit, and he was the most religious of the boys in the family. The
brothers went to say prayers for my dad after he passed away for a
full year, which is customary, of course, we went for a few months—the
other brothers, but Jack is the one that went for a full year, and he
observed going to the synagogue more regularly than the other brothers
did.
Mr. HUBERT. Did he, in fact, go to the synagogue regularly, do you know?
Mr. RUBY. Well, all I can say is that he went more regularly than the
other brothers.
Mr. HUBERT. How do you know that?
Mr. RUBY. Well, he used to call from there or when he would be talking,
he would say he was going to the synagogue and he was coming from
there, and in the conversation he would say he talked to the rabbi and
he would call and say he was going there and we would invite him over
for dinner or he would go early in the morning and we would invite him
over for a late breakfast.
Mr. BURLESON. Do you think of anything else you want to develop or
bring out?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Now, there has never been, Mr. Ruby, any
interview between you and me other than what took place in this room
since this deposition began, is that correct?
Mr. RUBY. That’s right, sir.
Mr. HUBERT. So that all that has ever passed between you and me has
been recorded in this room—right?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much. I’m glad to see you, Mr. Ruby, and I’m
glad you came down.
Mr. RUBY. Thank you.
Mr. BURLESON. Thank you, Mr. Ruby, and I will see you outside in just a
second.
TESTIMONY OF JACK L. RUBY
The testimony of Jack L. Ruby was taken at 11 a.m., on July 18,
1964, at the Dallas County Jail, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen Specter,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Present were: Bell P.
Herndon and W. James Wood, special agents of the FBI; Clayton Fowler
and Joe H. Tonahill, counsel for Jack Ruby; William F. Alexander,
assistant district attorney for Dallas County, Tex.; Allan L. Sweatt,
chief criminal deputy for Dallas County, Tex.; E. L. Holman, chief
jailer; and Dr. William Robert Beavers, observer.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that present at this time are Mr.
Clayton Fowler, chief counsel for Jack Ruby; Mr. Joe H. Tonahill,
cocounsel for Jack Ruby; Mr. William F. Alexander, assistant district
attorney for Dallas County, Tex.; Mr. Allan L. Sweatt, chief criminal
deputy and polygraph operator for Dallas County, Tex.; Mr. Bell P.
Herndon, the polygraph operator and special agent of the Federal Bureau
of Investigation; Mr. W. James Wood, special agent of the Federal
Bureau of Investigation; Odell Oliver, court reporter; and Arlen
Specter, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
We have discussed preliminarily the procedure to be followed on the
polygraph examination, where those currently present may remain
while the polygraph operators, Mr. Herndon and Mr. Wood, explain
the questions to Mr. Ruby, and then everyone would leave except the
operators, Messrs. Herndon and Wood, the court reporter and I, and the
question now subject to being resolved is the issue of whether anyone
will be present from the sheriff’s office.
As you know, the President’s Commission is trying to bring its work to
a close and the Chief Justice promised a polygraph test and that was
6 weeks ago tomorrow. There have been a lot of things we have had to
work out, and I think it all ought to be on the record. I would want to
give everyone an opportunity to put any request right on the record in
any way you want; and, of course, I think that all your objections and
comments about this proceeding should go on the record. After you have
so stated, I will state responsively the Commission’s position on these
proceedings.
I will say further that there is no closed mind on these issues and
that they will have to be weighed and evaluated by the members of the
Commission themselves.
Mr. FOWLER. Let me first suggest then—why don’t I discuss this with
Jack?
Mr. SPECTER. That’s fine.
Mr. FOWLER. And then Jack may say whether he wants to go ahead with
this and how I have advised him, and that he has on numerous occasions
requested it, and I will tell him that the Chief Justice promised to
give it to him and they are here ready to do it, which I am going to
tell him, and if he insists on it, I can’t and won’t try to hold him
back.
Mr. TONAHILL. That’s a good suggestion.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine; and if he has changed his mind for any reason, I
will just want to have it on the record, and that will conclude the
issue, so far as the Commission is concerned.
Mr. FOWLER. Let’s see—he’s on what floor?
Mr. TONAHILL. 6-M.
Mr. FOWLER. Let me step down and chat with him for just a few minutes.
Mr. TONAHILL. Do you want me to go with you?
Mr. FOWLER. I may need you later.
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Fowler left the room, and
in approximately 5 minutes thereafter, returned to the room from his
conference with Mr. Ruby.
Mr. FOWLER. He says he’s going to take this test regardless of his
lawyers, and he says, “By God, I’m going to take the test.”
Mr. TONAHILL. Well, you know the law is in his favor and that he is
presumed to be sane, and there can’t be anybody speak for him but
himself.
Mr. FOWLER. I have advised him, and I have read this letter to him, and
I have explained all of this to him when I talked to him.
Mr. TONAHILL. If he wouldn’t take it now——
Mr. FOWLER. Well, I won’t want to go back there then.
Mr. TONAHILL. If he ever gets his hands on you, they’ll let him have it.
Mr. SPECTER (addressing the court reporter). I hope you have had a
chance to put these observations on the record.
Mr. FOWLER. I also want this further put into the record as to how many
requests, in addition to this one, that were made for this test.
Mr. SPECTER. We would be willing to accede to that request, and as
you know, we have been trying to set this up for a long while. The
circumstances of the Commission’s timetable require us to proceed
today; that is, either proceed or find out from Mr. Ruby that we would
not ever proceed along this line. I have requested Sheriff Decker to
have a physician standing by so that he may protect, to the fullest
extent possible, Mr. Ruby’s physical condition if he needs medical
attention. As to your first request for Dr. Tanay of Detroit to be
present, the Commission would permit that. But since Dr. Tanay is not
now present, there is no way to implement that. We have no objection to
having any other doctor here who can be present here today.
With respect to request No. 2 made during our preliminary discussion,
that the results of the tests be held confidential, the Commission has
heretofore on other questions refused to make any advance commitment
because of the nature of its responsibility to make the final
decision on disclosing or not disclosing what it concludes is in the
public interest. Or stated differently, the Commission just won’t be
committed. The results of this examination will not be disclosed to
anyone until the Commission itself has reviewed the results and makes a
decision, bearing many factors in mind, including your request, to have
the information remain confidential.
Mr. FOWLER. All right; now in the past, of course we feel this—that
as to the other information that we assumed would be confidential and
would not be released to the press, this of course has been done, and
we strenuously request that this matter not be released to the press.
(At this point Sheriff Decker entered the room.)
Mr. DECKER (addressing Mr. Fowler). Jim Kerr caught you making a
50-yard dash and they are circling around downstairs and Jim Kerr is
just going in circles wanting to know what Clayton Fowler is doing up
in the jail.
(At this point Sheriff Decker left the room.)
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Fowler, as to your last statement, I don’t know what
you are referring to specifically, and without taking it up in terms
of specific items, I couldn’t comment about it, and I don’t know that
it would be really useful to go into it at this time. The material
given to the Commission, where the Commission says it will be kept
confidential, to the best of my knowledge, has always been honored.
There are in these proceedings many chains and it is not possible in
some cases to pinpoint responsibility, but the Chief Justice and the
Commission have honored every commitment they have made heretofore.
If they feel in their judgment—of course they have the paramount
responsibility for the entire investigation—that the results of this
proceeding ought to be kept secret, you may be assured that it will be
implemented to the fullest extent possible.
Mr. FOWLER. Well, of course, our request is that this matter be held
strictly confidential because it is being given at the request of the
Commission and for the benefit of the Commission, and we feel that
the Commission and only the Commission should have this information,
and before any of it is released for public consumption or private
consumption, No. 1, the sheriff’s office, the district attorney’s
office, the Federal Bureau of Investigation, or any other agency of the
Government outside the Warren Commission—that we be told that this is
going to be done.
Mr. SPECTER. That request, I think, can be honored in that you will
be notified in advance of any publication, that the Commission will
make a publication if in fact it ultimately decides to make such a
publication. Now, there is one facet of this matter which is difficult
to control and that is the fact itself that a polygraph examination
is being administered. I do not know at this time what circulation
has been given to this fact, if any, by any of the people who are
involved, since it has touched many bases among many parties in this
proceeding. That fact itself may have already been disclosed, but with
respect to the results of this examination, I propose to keep those
within the custody of the Commission through the Federal Bureau of
Investigation and its operators, who are conducting this test, and
their report will be made available only to the Commission until the
Commission decides whether it should be made public.
Mr. FOWLER. All right. Now then, I would like for this record to also
show that this letter from Mr. Gordon Shanklin has been handed to
you and that you are fully appraised of what this letter contains,
and I want the record to further show that on this date (1:05 p.m.),
not later than 10 minutes ago, I talked with Jack Ruby. I read the
letter to him. I explained it to him to the best of my ability. I
also advised him that the family legal advisor, Mr. Sol Dann, an
attorney of Detroit, had made these requests, and that following these
requests that I as Jack Ruby’s attorney advised him not to take the
test, and that if he did so he would be doing it against the advice
of his attorney, against the advice of his family advisor’s attorney,
and against the advice of the family, and that notwithstanding this,
Jack said that he had requested this before either Mr. Sol Dann or
myself came into this case as attorneys, and that Chief Justice Warren
had promised that he would give him this test, and that regardless
of what Mr. Dann’s wishes would be, together with his entire family
and together with his attorneys of record, that he insisted on this
test, but that a further proceeding of it would be against the advice
of his lawyers, and at this time we do respectfully request that the
Commission not disclose any of the questions that will be submitted
to Jack Ruby to any other person other than the operators, the
investigator for the Warren Commission, and his attorneys present, Mr.
Joe Tonahill and Clayton Fowler; and that more specifically that these
questions not be given to anyone connected with the Dallas Sheriff’s
Office, the Dallas Agency of the Bureau of Investigation, the Dallas
District Attorney’s Office, and more specifically, Mr. Bill Alexander,
who is present in the room at this time and representing the district
attorney’s office, and Mr. Allan Sweatt, who is present in the room and
representing the Dallas Sheriff’s Office. Anything else, Joe?
Mr. TONAHILL. I might go back on a little background whenever you
finish.
Mr. FOWLER. I wish you would.
Mr. SPECTER. With respect to the notation for the record concerning
the contents of the letter from Mr. Gordon Shanklin, special agent in
charge of the FBI office here in Dallas, that identical information has
been conveyed through the Federal Bureau of Investigation to Mr. J.
Lee Rankin, general counsel of the Commission. Having considered those
requests and those factors, the general counsel has instructed me to
proceed to have this polygraph taken today if Mr. Jack Ruby wants to
have this polygraph taken in accordance with his prior request to the
Commission on June 7, 1964, and the commitment given by the Commission
through the Chief Justice that such a polygraph examination would
be given. With respect to the request that none of the questions be
made available to anybody from the Dallas Police Department or the
Dallas District Attorney’s Office or the Dallas Sheriff’s Office,
the Commission’s position on that is that if the questions are to be
submitted in advance to the counsel for the defendant, that there is
equal standing on the part of the State to have similar treatment.
Previously, I outlined for you the procedure that we proposed to adopt
during the course of this polygraph examination, to wit; having the
people present in the room who are here at the present time, which
includes Mr. Clayton Fowler and Mr. Joe Tonahill, representing Mr.
Ruby; Mr. William F. Alexander, representing the Dallas District
Attorney’s office; Mr. Allan L. Sweatt, chief criminal deputy of the
Dallas Sheriff’s office; Mr. Bell P. Herndon, special agent of the
Federal Bureau of Investigation, and Mr. W. James Wood, special agent
of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, who are going to administer the
polygraph examination.
The questions to be asked of Mr. Ruby at the time of administration
of the examination would be set forth to Mr. Ruby so that he would
understand them fully; and with the other people present, it would be
known what questions were going to be asked of Mr. Ruby in advance of
the actual asking.
Then, it was the Commission’s view that everybody should leave the room
except for the two special agents of the FBI who would be administering
the test, the court reporter and me, so that the minimum number of
people would be present.
I have conveyed that request to Sheriff Decker and he has insisted that
a member of his staff be present as custodian of the body of Jack Ruby,
since he has that responsibility. It is not yet determined who that
will be, but the Commission proposes to proceed on the administration
of the polygraph test under those circumstances, with the only open
question being the identity, if anyone, of the representative of the
sheriff who has charge of the custody of the body of the defendant here
or Jack Ruby, since he is not a defendant in this proceeding, actually.
Mr. TONAHILL. I should like to say as one of Jack Ruby’s defense
counsel along with Chief Defense Counsel Clayton Fowler, that when I
entered the defense of Jack Ruby back in December of 1963, with Mr.
Belli, at that time we insisted before undertaking his defense that he
agree to a polygraph test and truth serum test or any other scientific
test that would reflect whether or not there was a connection between
him and Lee Harvey Oswald or in any respect a conspiracy. He agreed and
insisted at that time that there was no such conspiracy. He did not
know Lee Harvey Oswald and there was no connection between them and
that he would undertake any type of a scientific test that we could
have made available for him. Jack Ruby has insisted on those tests ever
since.
We have from time to time proposed to the FBI through Mr. Gordon
Shanklin and others, that a lie detector test be given Mr. Ruby. We
have filed motions to obtain scientific tests. Mr. Ruby has insisted on
these tests very strenuously and has felt that I have stood in the way
of him obtaining them.
I was present during the Warren Commission deposition of Jack Ruby
along with Mr. Jim Bowie of the district attorney’s office some 6 weeks
ago when Chief Justice Earl Warren on numerous occasions responded to
Jack Ruby that he had it in his power to make available to him some day
in the future a polygraph test and would do so at Mr. Ruby’s request.
Now it has come down that Chief Justice Earl Warren and the Warren
Commission are now in the process of keeping faith with their promise
to Mr. Ruby.
Mr. Fowler and I have talked with the various psychiatrists, Drs.
Tanay, West, and Beavers, each of whom feels that because Jack Ruby is
of unsound mind and mentally ill, this polygraph test is a mistake and
would produce nothing by way of an accurate result of deception, truth,
or conclusiveness in any regard and feel that it should not be made.
As cocounsel with Mr. Fowler. I yield to his position here and
concur with him, but as a personal individual, very close and very
knowledgeable of the entire history of this polygraph demand on
the part of Ruby, it is my personal view that even though he is of
unsound mind, does not know right from wrong, is mentally ill, and his
psychiatrists are opposed to it, unless he is given the polygraph test
there will never be any satisfaction in any respect. His condition
might even grow worse without it, and in the interest of satisfying
everyone concerned, the State, the Nation, and the world—that in
all probability if this polygraph test is not given, there will be
left hanging in the clouds certain doubts as to whether there was a
conspiracy between Ruby and others or Oswald, or whether they knew each
other, despite the fact that his mental condition may be such that it
will not demonstrate any effective results.
Nevertheless my personal view is that it might be well to go forward
with it, and certainly if all appellate efforts are exhausted on behalf
of Jack Ruby and his case is affirmed all the way up, which I feel that
it won’t be; if his family and Jack Ruby should refuse to undergo a
polygraph test, certainly the Board of Pardons and Parole may look with
disfavor upon that fact and infer possible premeditation on his part in
the shooting of Oswald or a possible conspiracy and might rule against
him in granting clemency, in the event it ever reached that stage. And,
irrespective of whether an effective polygraph test can be run of this
man at this time in his present mental state or not, I personally feel
that an effort should be made to do it.
Mr. SPECTER. For the record I want to add that requests have been
received by the Commission, requests made on behalf of Mr. Ruby, to
have a polygraph test, prior to the time the Commission heard his
testimony on June 7 of this year, and that the Commission has not
initiated any effort whatsoever to have a polygraph test taken but is
only conducting these proceedings today to make available to Mr. Ruby
this examination if he wishes to have it at this time, in accordance
with the promise made by the Commission through the Chief Justice on
June 7.
I want to be emphatic and clear on this question that we do not now
and have never asked for or insisted on a polygraph examination. If
Mr. Ruby does not want to have such an examination taken, that is
acceptable to the President’s Commission on the Assassination. As we
discussed informally before we started a record proceeding, in this
event we are willing to have anything put on the record that Mr. Fowler
or Mr. Tonahill wish to place on the record as his attorneys; and of
course, we do not wish to, have not, and will not interfere in any way
with your representation of Mr. Ruby, as his counsel, so that he may
take your advice and proceed in accordance with your advice.
If you wish to put on the record any medical evidence, I am authorized
to have that done here today or at a later date. Mr. Tonahill and I
discussed this matter by telephone last Wednesday and I indicated to
him at that time that the Commission was willing to have such evidence
placed on the record as an aid to their evaluation of whether to place
any credence in the tests which are going to be administered.
It has been somewhat uncertain as to whether this proceeding would
go forward today, so that counsel for Mr. Ruby may wish to provide
supplemental data by way of testimony, letter, affidavit or in whatever
form you choose. The Commission will be glad to receive it and to weigh
it in evaluating whatever these tests may disclose.
May the record further show that arrangements have been made to
have Dr. Norman Beavers available, adjacent to the room where these
proceedings will take place, in the event that there is any medical
attention required for Mr. Ruby.
Mr. TONAHILL. Sheriff Decker gave me this phone number and said he
would be standing by.
I would like to add to Mr. Specter’s comments that it is correct that
numerous letters have been written by me to the Warren Commission
requesting the polygraph test prior to the intervention of the
psychiatrist, who felt that it would be a mistake.
At no time has the Warren Commission agreed and stated that they
desired the polygraph test. The test, as I understand, has grown out of
the agreement between Mr. Ruby and Mr. Chief Justice Earl Warren at the
hearing that occurred here about 6 weeks ago.
I should like to say that I asked Sheriff Bill Decker to get in touch
with Dr. William Beavers, and this was as a result of the conversation
with Mr. Specter, and have Dr. William Beavers available so that he
could be interrogated subsequent to the running of the polygraph test.
Is that agreeable?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; that is agreeable, if you desire to do just that.
Mr. FOWLER. Further, let’s add this, Joe, that in whatever capacity or
degree it would help to substantiate that in our opinion we believe
that Jack Ruby is of unsound mind.
We would like to submit at a later date a report by Dr. Emanuel Tanay,
a practicing psychiatrist in Detroit, Mich., a report by him based upon
the examination of Jack Ruby, together with the report of Dr. West, and
we would respectfully request that this matter be furnished to you at a
later date. We have it available but not for today, and we would like
to make it a part of this record, as suggested by counsel.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Fowler, the Commission will be glad to receive any
evidence that you may wish to submit on all the questions which you
have raised during the course of this proceeding.
Mr. TONAHILL. Whoever is in charge of his body ought not to be an
expert on this thing [referring and indicating the polygraph machine].
Mr. FOWLER. You and I have done all we can do on it. I am not going to
physically manhandle Jack Ruby.
Mr. TONAHILL. No; Jack Ruby is going to insist on doing it, and until
he is declared a ward through an insanity proceedings, he is presumed
to be able to exercise his own consent.
Mr. FOWLER. That’s right.
Mr. SPECTER. Let us discuss this off the record a moment.
(Discussion between Mr. Specter and Messrs. Tonahill and Fowler off
the record regarding presence in the room of anyone able to operate a
polygraph machine other than the FBI operator, Mr. Herndon.)
Mr. FOWLER. Let us put this into the record, that we would further
object to anyone in the sheriff’s office being present. If the only
valid reason is one of security, and I would like the record to
reflect that we are within the confines of the Dallas County Jail,
namely, on 7-M, which is a part of the Dallas County Jail, and that it
would appear to me to be virtually escape proof, and as I understand
previously when Mr. Warren was here, that he was allowed to talk with
Jack Ruby by himself and without the presence of anyone from the
sheriff’s department, which further leads me to believe that this is
not for security purposes only, and we will object to the presence of
anyone from the Dallas County Sheriff’s office.
Mr. SPECTER. In response to your objection. Mr. Fowler, for the record
I will state that the Commission has requested that its preference be
honored to have no one other than the FBI personnel administering the
test, the court reporter, and me present, but that Sheriff Decker has
taken the position that the prisoner, Jack Ruby, is his responsibility
and that he must have someone on his staff present. Sheriff Decker
did agree to substitute as that person the chief jailer, who has no
knowledge of or experience with polygraph operation, so that the
confidentiality of these proceedings is secure in my view.
Sheriff Decker’s position is not that Mr. Ruby may escape, but there
may be an incident which would require having someone present, and the
sheriff feels that someone from his staff ought to be present. In view
of his position on that, it is my conclusion that such a proviso is
justifiable under all the circumstances.
With respect to the conversations between the Chief Justice and Mr.
Ruby, I was present at the time those conversations were held and
they were held in the corner of the room in which we are now sitting,
following the formal testimony of Mr. Ruby at a time when there were
numerous people in another portion of this room in which we now sit,
so that at no time was the Chief Justice alone with Mr. Ruby in any
separate room. Mr. Tonahill was present at that time and I think can
confirm my version.
Mr. TONAHILL. We were all present and the sheriff’s department men did
leave, the personnel there—the sheriff and his deputies. He left him in
the custody—we left Ruby’s body in charge of a Secret Service man.
Mr. SPECTER. Elmer Moore.
Mr. TONAHILL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And at that time there were also present Mr. Tonahill,
Mr. Rankin, Congressman Ford, Mr. Ball of the Commission’s staff, and
I was present. At no time did the Chief Justice have any conversations
privately with Mr. Ruby except that, at the very end, Mr. Ruby, the
Chief Justice, and I were in a corner of the room conversing, and there
were many others present at that time, and I think Mr. Tonahill can
verify that.
Mr. TONAHILL. I was present.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, for the record, I want to state that Mr. Fowler has
previously gone to discuss the matter with Mr. Ruby to determine what
are Mr. Ruby’s desires in terms of having a polygraph examination,
in view of the stated position of the Commission that it does not
request such an examination, but has made such an examination available
to Mr. Ruby if he wants one, pursuant to his request to have such an
examination, made during the course of Commission proceedings on June
7, 1964, and the response by Chief Justice Warren that the Commission
would offer him such a polygraph examination in response to his
repeated requests.
Mr. FOWLER. Now, I would like to answer regarding the presence of a
deputy sheriff here. I believe you advanced the theory that it was
thought by Mr. Decker that there might be something that might occur
during the giving of the polygraph tests that perhaps might disrupt
things.
We further feel and respectfully request that if there is this feeling
by the polygraph operator himself, that he will be conducting this test
some 10 or 12 feet from a door, and if the sheriff is allowed at all,
that he be allowed to stand at the door and any other exit that might
be in the building, to not be able to view the chart or any part of it.
This would be our request to that.
Mr. SPECTER. The conditions set forth in your request will be granted
and the sheriff’s custodian will be present at the door so that he may
not have access to the chart, to insure the confidential nature of
these proceedings.
I think we are now ready to have Mr. Ruby come in, but before he comes
in, let’s take a 5-minute recess.
Let the record show we are taking a 5-minute recess.
(Proceedings recessed and resumed as stated.)
Mr. ALEXANDER. I assume that once Jack is brought in, there will be
complete silence.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes. Mr. Alexander, do you want to make your request for
the record?
Mr ALEXANDER. Yes; please. At this time for and on behalf of the Dallas
County, Tex., district attorney’s office, a request is made that the
Warren Commission furnish the district attorney’s office a list of the
questions asked Jack Ruby in this polygraph examination, and that a
copy of the recording made by the polygraph machine be furnished the
Dallas County district attorney’s office. We would also like a copy
of the interpretation of the test, but whether or not we are given an
interpretation of the test, we do want the aforementioned questions and
actual tape of the polygraph machine.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Fowler, you may want to make a similar request as to
the results.
Mr. FOWLER. In behalf of Jack Ruby and as attorney for Jack Ruby, I
respectfully request that the Warren Commission deny the request of the
Dallas district attorney’s office for the following reasons: Number
One—that this is a matter of request that has been made by Mr. Ruby
to the Warren Commission only, that if the district attorney’s office
were furnished with these questions and answers and any other matters
pertaining to the giving of this polygraph test, it might and could
and very well effect the outcome of his case that is now on appeal
before the court of criminal appeals here in the State of Texas, and we
respectfully request that the request by the district attorney’s office
be denied by the Warren Commission in all of their requests for this
information.
On the other hand, we who represent Jack Ruby, respectfully request
that we be furnished a copy of the questions that will be asked and
that if some determination is made as to the answers and the outcome is
ever made public, that we be furnished the information of the outcome
of the tests.
Now, this is off the record.
(Statement by Mr. Fowler to Mr. Specter, off the record, requesting
that Mr. Ruby be advised again when brought into the room for the test,
the requests of his attorneys and family with respect to taking the
test.)
Mr. SPECTER. In response to those two statements, no commitment can
be made on behalf of the Commission anticipating the action of the
Commission in advance of knowledge by the Commission of the results of
the tests, and any additional evidence which may be submitted on the
competency of Mr. Ruby which may aid the Commission in the evaluation
of the results of the polygraph examination. The requests of Mr.
Alexander and Mr. Fowler will be transmitted to the Commission and
will be carefully studied by the Commission before any final decision
is reached.
With respect to a list of questions, the procedure as previously
outlined will permit all parties to be present when the questions are
enumerated, so that the questions asked of Mr. Ruby will be a surprise
to no one, but will be discussed in his presence and in the presence of
representatives of both the district attorney’s office and Mr. Ruby’s
defense counsel, so that there is no limitation to the taking of notes
on the questions that may be asked.
With respect to the results, including a copy of the results themselves
and a copy of the interpretation, no commitment can be made until the
Commission has examined the results in this matter fully.
With respect to affecting the outcome of any subsequent proceedings,
the Commission has exercised the greatest possible care in avoiding the
influencing of the State court proceedings.
The action taken by the Commission has been designed to fulfill its
function, while at the same time not interfering, or interfering to the
minimal possible extent, with the State court proceedings. Now, before
we get Mr. Ruby in, do you want to make a request for his doctor; and
when we get Mr. Ruby in, we will make the other statement and then we
will be able to go ahead, but I don’t think we want to go through any
more with him present than we have to.
Mr. TONAHILL. Yes; it is requested that Dr. William Beavers, who has
been retained by Jack Ruby’s family to observe and treat Jack Ruby, be
present during the examination in order that he may observe and render
any expression that he may have to offer that will be of benefit to
the Commission as well as to Jack Ruby’s mental health condition, with
special reference to interpreting the results of the polygraph tests,
and as an aid and guide to the Commission in its interpretation of it
as to what weight and value to give to it.
Mr. SPECTER. Does that request, Mr. Tonahill, go only for the time that
everyone is present, or do you want him present, while the examination
itself is going on?
Mr. TONAHILL. While the examination itself is going on—before and
during the examinations—before the examination and during the actual
examination, so that he can actually observe the actual examination.
Mr. SPECTER. In view of the expression of concern that has been made by
Dr. Tanay, that request will be granted, since it is made by counsel
for Mr. Ruby at this time.
The JAILER (on entering the room). He will be right up.
(Mr. Ruby entered the hearing room at 2:23 p.m.)
Mr. SPECTER. May the record now show that Mr. Ruby is present. Mr.
Ruby, I am Arlen Specter. How are you today?
Mr. RUBY. Fine; how are you?
Mr. TONAHILL. Jack, that’s Mr. Specter of the Warren Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, why don’t you have a chair over here—we’ve been
getting things set up, and let me introduce you to everybody so you
will know who everybody is.
This is Miss Odell Oliver, who is the court reporter, and she will take
your testimony just like we did before.
Miss OLIVER. How do you do, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. SPECTER. And I guess you know Dr. Beavers, and this is Mr. Wood.
He is one of the polygraph operators with the FBI, and this is Mr.
Herndon, one of the operators and with the FBI also. This is Mr.
Alexander, and your name, sir?
The JAILER. Mr. Holman, E. L.
Mr. SPECTER. This is Mr. Holman.
Mr. RUBY. Can Fowler remain here after I start with the interrogation?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; Mr. Ruby. The procedure which we’ve discussed is this
and this is subject to agreement of all sides, and we’ve been through
it, but let me go through it with you. We are going to conduct the
polygraph examination in a standard way, which involves a series of
questions, about eight or nine in duration. Before we start with the
series, the questions will be explained to you in advance so that you
will know exactly what the questions are to be and you will know what
the operator means by the questions. He will explain them so that
there is no possibility of any confusion in terms of what the questions
mean so they won’t surprise you. You will have full awareness of what
is going to be asked.
At that time, everybody who is present in this room will be present
when the questions are discussed in a general way. So that the record
may be complete, let it show that Mr. Fowler is here and Mr. Tonahill
is here, and Mr. Alexander is here, and Mr. Herndon and Mr. Wood are
here. Dr. Beavers is here, and Chief Jailer E. L. Holman is here, Odell
Oliver is here, and of course, I am here. Those are the only people who
are here now and they are the only people who will be present when we
explain each series of questions to you, so that you understand what is
happening and what questions are going to be asked.
Now, scientifically, it’s preferable to have as few people possible
at the time the examination is administered as we can, so for that
purpose, we are trying to cut down the number as much as we can. We
had originally thought that the only people present would be the two
operators, the court reporter and I. Now we have Mr. Holman here on the
custody question, and then your counsel requested especially that Dr.
Beavers be present at the time of the administration of the tests. It
is our desire to have only those people present, which would mean Mr.
Alexander wouldn’t be here and Mr. Tonahill wouldn’t be here and Mr.
Fowler wouldn’t be here at the time the test is administered.
Mr. RUBY. I would like to have Mr. Fowler here in preference of Dr.
Beavers. May I request that?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; you may request that.
Mr. RUBY. And how soon will the answers be released, as soon as
possible?
Mr. SPECTER. Well, the answers are going to be compiled by the FBI and
then they’re going to go to the Commission, to Chief Justice Warren
of the Commission, and I am not in a position to say to you when the
answers will be released. That will be up to the Commission. They will
have to study the results of the tests and make a decision on the time
of release of the tests. Everything is up to them as to whether they
will be released, what the release will be, and when it will be made.
I want to say preliminarily before we start, that the Commission has
not requested the test, but it is responding to the request which was
made on your behalf by letter, before the Chief Justice questioned you
on June 7.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. You requested then that a test be given.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. We want it to be perfectly plain for the record that the
Commission isn’t pushing this matter, but it’s only in response to your
request, and that you have learned counsel here who are representing
you, and you are aware of that. We want to make it pointed and clear
that anything you say could be used against you, and it is possible for
adverse or unfavorable inferences to be drawn. Whenever a defendant who
is involved in a criminal proceeding says anything, anything he says
could be held against him.
I know Mr. Fowler and Mr. Tonahill have advised you of that and that
has been brought to your attention, but this record should show that we
called it to your attention as forcefully and as clearly as we could,
so that you would understand what we are doing here.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Mr. Specter; let me explain one thing. Under Texas law,
nothing that Jack says here could be used against him in Texas.
Mr. RUBY. Bill, I’m not quarreling with that, and I know you certainly
are not going to help me, I know that, but I want to get a copy to the
chief as soon as I can, Chief Holman over there.
Mr. SPECTER. You would like to do what, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. To have the report as soon as the results are analyzed.
Mr. SPECTER. That, as I say, is up to the Commission, but you
understand what I have said to you here?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And under those circumstances do you continue to request
that such an examination be given you?
Mr. RUBY. Yes: any questions you want to ask, anything pertaining to
this—I will answer anything without reluctance. There’s no punches to
be pulled. I want to answer anything and everything.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Fowler, I think, wants to make a statement for the
record too.
Mr. RUBY. In fact, Bill, you can stay here If you want to.
Mr. FOWLER. Jack: let me ask you this: A little while ago I came up
into the jail cell and talked with you, is that correct?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. FOWLER. And at that time I advised you that the Warren Commission
people were here at your request to give you a polygraph test?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. FOWLER. I also showed you a letter from Mr. Gordon Shanklin of the
FBI here in Dallas, that he had received requests that were submitted
to him by Mr. Sol Dann, who is the legal advisor to your family?
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. FOWLER. And that certain requests were made there, No. 1, that the
tests would be given in the presence of Dr. Tanay, with no outsiders
present, with particular reference to anyone from the district
attorney’s office or the sheriff’s office, and further, that it
would have to be assured that the results of the tests would be held
confidential by the Commission, and that under no circumstances made
available to the district attorney or the press. Further, that written
authority for such examination be obtained from Mr. Earl Ruby. Now, I
have explained this to you, have I not?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; can I change that now?
Mr. FOWLER. Well, let me go on further, Jack, and as your attorney of
record, at that time I advised that you not take nor submit to this
polygraph test.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. FOWLER. And at this time, as your attorney of record, I advise
you in the presence of these gentlemen and Commission, these people
representing the Commission, that you will be doing so against the
advice of your counsel.
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. FOWLER. And against the advice and wishes of your family.
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. FOWLER. Now, do you still at this time wish to take the tests?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; and I would also like to add that, if I have a right to
say this—I want it be made immediately that the district attorney’s
office should receive whatever is necessary in regard to the answers
to the district attorney, and as I once wrote to District Attorney
Henry Wade, that I didn’t want to publicize it, but if possible they
may—I would prefer that naturally, but at that time it was so easy to
get a lie detector test, I wrote to Henry Wade; that it is not for
publicity purposes but only for authenticity and the truth. So, I agree
with everything except that if I may supersede the attorney and say
I’m not concerned about withholding anything. I want it to be released
immediately to all parties concerned.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, your request on that, Mr. Ruby, will be transmitted
to the Commission and they will consider that very carefully in
reaching whatever conclusion they do about releasing it.
Mr. RUBY. I want to supersede the attorney, Mr. Dann, in stating that
I want everything to come out immediately, as soon as possible, and
whoever wants to know the results—what the results are—I want it to be
known, regardless of which way it turns.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, you want Mr. Fowler to remain with you during
the course of the examination?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. In view of Mr. Ruby’s request, it is my view that it ought
to be honored and that the group is of such a size now that it ought to
remain as it is constituted at the present time for both sessions.
We have done our best to limit it, but since it is a legitimate request
here to include Mr. Fowler, we will sit in this group during all
portions of the test.
Mr. Ruby has indicated that he has no objection to having Mr. Alexander
here, and if one side is here, the other may be.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Mr. Specter, if it will help the ultimate in the tests,
I have no objection to leaving the room, and perhaps Mr. Tonahill, I
think, could very well leave, or if Jack has no objections and perhaps
wants us here, we will stay.
Mr. SPECTER. I am advised by Mr. Herndon that the technical
considerations are not persuasive as to one or two more people,
with this many present, so that if it’s acceptable to all parties,
specifically Mr. Ruby, we will just proceed with the group that’s
presently here during all portions, the explanatory portion to Mr. Ruby
and the actual testing itself.
Is that agreeable, gentlemen? Is that agreeable with you, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Well——
Mr. FOWLER. Jack, let me make this request. I don’t think Bill can
read a polygraph test, but I would feel better as your attorney if Mr.
Alexander were not present.
Mr. RUBY. I don’t mind everyone remaining here.
Mr. FOWLER. Well, of course, again—let me advise you that if Mr.
Alexander remains—let me advise you of your rights—that if Mr.
Alexander remains, he is a member of the district attorney’s staff,
the answers to these questions could be used against you at some later
date, if they are adverse to your rights, and as your attorney, I
advise you that it would be my suggestion to you and request to you
that Mr. Alexander not be allowed to remain.
Mr. RUBY (addressing Mr. Alexander). Will you object?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Not at all, Jack.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. SPECTER. If Mr. Alexander is willing to abide by your request,
Mr. Ruby, then your request will govern as far as the proceeding is
concerned.
Mr. FOWLER. Now, Mr. Alexander and I—when it comes to me representing
you or any other client—I represent one client and he represents the
other. He, in my opinion, is a perfect gentleman, but in the courtroom
he is a perfect prosecutor, and I like to be as near a perfect defense
lawyer as I can, and I believe that by allowing him to stay here——
Mr. RUBY. No, Fowler——
Mr. FOWLER. Well, I’m thinking of you now. I’m asking you to do this,
and again, this is entirely up to you, so it’s your decision. I think I
have fully explained to you the reason why we would not want him here.
Mr. RUBY. Now, I’ve got the monkey on my back now.
Mr. FOWLER. Well, you’ve got more than a monkey on your back, Jack.
This is your decision.
(Conference between Mr. Fowler and Mr. Ruby out of the hearing of this
reporter and others in the room.)
Mr. RUBY. Well, whatever my attorney suggests, I guess I will have to
follow through.
Mr. SPECTER. Your request then is that Mr. Alexander not be present?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. ALEXANDER. That will be fine.
Mr. SPECTER. If it is all right with you, we will proceed on that
basis, but of course, that will go only for the time the test is
actually being administered to you.
Mr. FOWLER. That’s right.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Bell Herndon will now start to explain the proceedings
to you. He is the operator of the polygraph, the principal operator
here, Mr. Ruby. As I explained to you, Mr. Herndon and Mr. Wood, are
joint operators for the FBI on the polygraph or lie detector test and
Mr. Herndon will take over now to explain just how it’s going to work.
Mr. HERNDON. Thank you. Mr. Ruby, first of all, I want to show you my
credentials so you will know that I am a special agent and I am from
the FBI laboratory in Washington, D.C. (Exhibited instruments to Mr.
Ruby.)
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Perhaps to set the record straight, Mr. Specter, I might
mention that my colleague, Special Agent Wood, is not actually a
polygraph examiner, but he is here to assist me in this examination. Is
that all right?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, that’s fine to specify that exact status.
Mr. HERNDON. He is here to assist me and to help me in the
interrogation of this gentleman.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon, before you start on the questioning, we will
want to put Mr. Ruby under oath, so pause at that point, but proceed
now to explain what is going to happen.
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, actually prior to any polygraph examination
which the Federal Bureau of Investigation gives to anyone, we have a
consent form that I want to read to you, and as I want to remind you,
of course, you have been advised of your rights, and there is no sense
of my going over it again, but I want to remind you that your counsel
and your attorneys are here.
I will now read to you this consent form that we use as a standard
procedure on this type of examination.
“Consent to Interview with Polygraph. I, Jack L. Ruby”—I believe that’s
the way you sign your name?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “I, Jack L. Ruby, consent freely and voluntarily to be
interviewed by special agents of the Federal Bureau of Investigation,
which I also know as the FBI, in connection with the President’s
Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy investigation. I
agree to the use of the polygraph or so-called lie detector during this
interview or any part of it, and I am willing to be present at the time
and place of interview for such time as is necessary to complete the
interview.
“No threats or promises of any kind have been made to me to obtain my
consent to this interview.”
Now, I can let you read that if you would like or your attorney might
like to read it.
Mr. RUBY. That’s perfectly all right.
Mr. HERNDON. If it’s agreeable with you, I would appreciate it if you
would sign it, Mr. Ruby, if that’s agreeable with your counsel?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. And Mr. Wood and I will witness that.
Mr. RUBY. Do you want it “Jack Ruby” or “Jack L. Ruby”?
Mr. HERNDON. You sign it as you usually sign, but do you want to read
it any further, sir?
Mr. RUBY. I’ll just sign it.
(Mr. Ruby at this time signed the instrument referred to, which was
thereafter signed by witnesses Special Agents Herndon and Wood.)
Mr. RUBY. Did you get your pants sewed up, Joe?
Mr. TONAHILL. It went through to my leg.
Mr. RUBY. That was a pretty rough brawl we had, wasn’t it, Joe?
Mr. TONAHILL. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. Joe, I’d appreciate it if you weren’t in the room. Can I ask
you to leave, Joe?
Mr. TONAHILL. I’ll be glad to leave, if you want me to, Jack.
Mr. RUBY. As a matter of fact, I prefer Bill Alexander to you, you’re
supposed to be my friend.
Mr. TONAHILL. Let the record show that Mr. Ruby says he prefers Bill
Alexander being here during this investigation, who is the assistant
district attorney who asked that a jury give him the death sentence, to
myself, who asked the jury to acquit him, his attorney.
Mr. HERNDON. May we proceed?
Mr. SPECTER. Please do, Mr. Herndon.
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, as you know, we have a doctor here, and before
we begin anything, I want you to try to relax. I realize that there is
some tension here, and before we proceed any further, I want to ask
you very generally, how do you feel today, right now, specifically
speaking?
Mr. RUBY. Very good, except—may I be very honest?
Mr. HERNDON. Of course.
Mr. RUBY. What is the preference of the doctor being here? Is he
supposed to be my doctor, I mean Dr. Beavers?
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Specter, do you want to answer that?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; Mr. Ruby, he is here at the request of Mr. Tonahill,
and I believe concurred in, by your chief counsel, Mr. Fowler.
Mr. HERNDON. The reason I asked you about your health, Mr. Ruby,
obviously I don’t want to proceed with this interrogation of the
polygraph type when you obviously may not feel well physically today.
I wouldn’t want to subject you to the examination unless you felt well
enough to take it, and I will ask you some very general questions about
your health in regard to your history in that regard.
Have you every had any respiratory diseases or illnesses such as asthma
or trouble with breathing, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. None whatever.
Mr. HERNDON. Any sinus condition or trouble?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Have you ever had any heart ailments?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir.
Mr. HERNDON. No heart trouble to your knowledge.
Mr. RUBY. [No response.]
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, have you had any medication of any type
whatsoever today, such as tranquilizers, aspirin, any drugs at all
today?
Mr. RUBY. None whatsoever.
Mr. HERNDON. While you’ve been here in custody, have you been under any
medication?
Mr. RUBY. None whatever.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon, at this time I shall administer the oath to
Mr. Ruby.
Mr. RUBY. You want me to stand up?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir; if you would please. As assistant counsel, I
have the authority under the law to administer an oath to you for
proceedings in the nature of depositions.
Do you solemnly swear that the answers and information you shall
give in this proceeding before the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy will be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth?
Mr. RUBY. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Have the answers you have heretofore given in response to
the informal questions already asked of you been the truth, sir?
Mr. RUBY. Repeat that again?
Mr. SPECTER. Have the answers which you have already given in response
to the informal questions put to you by Mr. Herndon and others here,
are they all true?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, about my health—are all true—yes.
Mr. SPECTER. All right, Mr. Herndon, will you proceed.
Mr. HERNDON. Yes. Thank you.
I understand, Mr. Ruby, that you have had your lunch today, is that
correct? I want to make sure you have had a chance to eat.
Mr. RUBY. Yes, I did.
Mr. HERNDON. When did you eat, how long ago?
Mr. RUBY. I would guess approximately 12:30.
Mr. HERNDON. You’ve had no digestive problems while you’ve been here?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Have you had any coffee today—these are questions that
will help us later on?
Mr. RUBY. One early in the morning.
Mr. HERNDON. Early in the morning?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Did you have more than one cup?
Mr. RUBY. One and a half cups.
Mr. HERNDON. That’s your usual amount of coffee you have?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Did you have any coffee at lunch, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. No, I did not.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, Mr. Ruby, have you ever had a——
Mr. RUBY. The reason why I say this, there was some newspaper items
recently that brought up the fact that I was of unsound mind. Do I
sound that way to you at the present time?
Mr. HERNDON. I don’t feel that I am qualified at this time to make any
statement in that regard. I’m sure you would understand that that is
something you can’t give in a moment’s notice.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Would you care to sit over here, Mr. Ruby, and I will
further explain the test to you.
Mr. RUBY. Surely.
(At this time Mr. Ruby conferred with Mr. Fowler out of the hearing of
this reporter and others in the room.)
Mr. RUBY. All right.
(At this time Mr. Ruby seated himself in the polygraph test chair.)
Mr. HERNDON. This is a polygraph chair. The reason it is so
constructed, we want to take advantage of these high arms [indicating
arms on the polygraph chair] so that we can get a better tracing, and
very frankly, Mr. Ruby, I want to give you as best an examination as
I can. So, it’s going to take a little time and I want you to relax
as best you can. I realize you might be a little nervous, and I will
certainly take that into consideration. Let me just briefly, Mr.
Ruby, tell you about the polygraph examination and what we’re going
to do today. I want to proceed by hooking up some of these pieces of
equipment and briefly tell you what it is. Now, may I ask you to remove
the material you have in your pocket, sir, and you might want to give
it to your counsel.
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Ruby has removed all the
objects from his upper left-hand pocket.
(After removing objects mentioned, Mr. Ruby handed the same to Mr.
Fowler.)
Mr. HERNDON. I gather from looking at your overalls that you don’t have
any restrictive garments or belts or anything underneath on you which
would hinder you or your relaxation?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir.
Mr. HERNDON. You are very comfortable?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Very fine, Mr. Ruby. Now, Mr. Ruby, there are two ways I
can do this. I can do two things—I can either go ahead and put this
equipment on you right now and describe briefly how it’s going to work,
or if you want, I can go over these first series of questions and give
you some instructions, and then put the equipment on. Which do you
prefer?
Mr. RUBY. Which is the most effective way to get what you want?
Mr. HERNDON. Well, I think in view of the fact that we will have some
discussion here, I want to make sure that you perfectly understand
these questions, I will go ahead and give you some basic instructions
about how these questions are going to be asked and how I want you to
answer them.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. HERNDON. And then later on, as I hook you up, I will briefly
describe what this equipment is going to do.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. The polygraph examination will entail, as Mr. Specter
indicated, just approximately 8 to 9 questions, Mr. Ruby, in what we
call a series. Now, I’m going to go over these questions with you
right now very carefully. I want to make sure that the way I have them
phrased is in such a way that you understand perfectly what I mean by
them. We will discuss the question and you may if you want to, even
answer the question at this time.
Mr. RUBY. I would appreciate it myself.
Mr. HERNDON. In other words, I’m going to tell you what the question is
going to be and you shall feel free to answer it “Yes” or “No.”
Mr. FOWLER. Excuse me, sir.
Mr. HERNDON. Certainly.
Mr. FOWLER. At this time, Jack, I request that in view of the fact that
you’re not hooked up, that you do not answer the question and reserve
those until such time as you will be on the machine.
Mr. RUBY. That’s fine.
Mr. HERNDON. Then, we will just discuss the questions.
Mr. RUBY. Do it to your advantage, may I add.
Mr. HERNDON. I generally prefer in my practice with the polygraph to
have the gentleman answer the question so that he knows he has already
answered it, and as a matter of record, he knows that that question is
coming along.
Mr. RUBY. Please let me do it, will you? [Addressing Mr. Fowler.]
Mr. FOWLER (no response).
Mr. HERNDON. I will bow to whatever Mr. Specter or counsel wants to do
in this regard.
Mr. RUBY. Fowler, I hate to dispute with you, but let me do it this way?
Mr. FOWLER. Well, Jack, again, Mr. Alexander is here and again I
tell you this—that the answers to some of these questions could be
absolutely very detrimental to you.
Mr. RUBY. They can’t be.
Mr. FOWLER. I’m talking about from a legal standpoint. Now, morally,
I know how you feel and you want to do the best you can for the
Commission.
Mr. RUBY. I will.
Mr. FOWLER. But by the same token, this gentleman over here [referring
to Mr. Alexander] represents the State, who at this time is not
representing you. Now, if we could allow Mr. Alexander to have the
benefit of the nature of the questions, with the exception of the
answers—if this is what Jack wants—but I do not want Mr. Alexander to
have the benefit of the answers.
Mr. SPECTER. The test may be conducted either way. As Mr. Herndon
has explained, he has a slight preference to have the answers, but
the ultimate decision on that is up to Mr. Ruby and his counsel. The
Commission will proceed in either manner.
Mr. RUBY. It’s unfortunate that my attorney, Mr. Fowler, don’t see as
I do. I would like to give every cooperation without the slightest
fraction of interference. That’s why I requested that. You won’t let me
do it that way, huh, Fowler?
Mr. FOWLER. I’m requesting that you do not, Jack.
Mr. HERNDON. It will be no problem.
(Addressing the court reporter.) Do you have any problem hearing?
COURT REPORTER. If Mr. Ruby would talk just a little bit louder it
would be fine.
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, I have placed all these questions in a form
so that they are very short and concise and can be answered only by
“Yes” or “No,” and that’s the way we have to ask a question during a
polygraph examination, but I’ll go over them with you and give you
an idea of what they’re going to be. During the normal series, I’m
going to ask several questions, of course, which are pertinent to the
Commission’s investigation, but I will also ask you several questions
which more or less just deal with your identity, your background and
your name, so you will have two types of questions that I will ask.
Now, the first question I’m going to ask you under series 1, which is
rather pertinent, and I want you to know that I’m going to ask it, and
I’m going to phrase it as simply as I can.
“Did you know Oswald before November 22, 1963?”
Now, what I mean by “know” is did you have any personal acquaintance of
this individual, any personal acquaintance? Have you ever seen him, did
you have any conversation with him? In other words, as you would say,
“Well, I know that person.”
Mr. RUBY. Should I answer that?
Mr. FOWLER. Not now, Jack.
Mr. HERNDON. That question will be asked or repeated, and so you and
I will understand what we want, I’ll repeat it. “Did you know Oswald
before November 22, 1963?”
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. HERNDON. Another question that I will ask in series 1, after I get
the instrument adjusted, and it will be short and simple and answerable
only by “Yes” or “No.”
“Did you assist Oswald in the assassination?”
Do you understand that question?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; it is very clear.
Mr. HERNDON. I tried to make them as short as possible and as clear as
possible. Again, I’m going to ask you just as a matter of format here,
“Did you take any medication this morning?” You have already answered
that question, but that will be one of the questions I will ask you.
I’m also going to ask on series 1, just to give you a little time to
relax here, some of these rather simple questions such as: “Did you
voluntarily request this test?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. You have already indicated your answer to that. And, I
will ask a rather obvious question as a matter of identity, “Is your
first name Jack? Is your last name Ruby?” These types of questions will
be asked and I want to make sure I cover each and every one. I’m going
to ask you, “Do you use the middle name ‘Leon’?” I understand you do;
is that correct?
Mr. RUBY. No; very rarely, very rarely.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, you can answer that as you see fit, when I
ask it on the test. I will ask you this question, and I want to ask
this as a matter of record for me because I interview a lot of people:
“Have you ever been arrested?” Now, what I mean in this regard, and
I’ll probably change that phraseology to “Have you ever been arrested
before? Prior to the shooting, have you ever been arrested?” Now, what
I mean by “arrested,” Mr. Ruby, is were you ever actually placed under
arrest and brought before some type of magistrate and charged with any
crime. That question will also be on the first examination. Those are
the questions I’m going to ask you. Do you have any questions about
them, sir? Are they clear and concise to you?
Mr. RUBY. When you speak of the last question about a crime, I’ve never
been involved in a crime, so if you’ve been arrested for selling beer
after hours, does that qualify as an answer too?
Mr. HERNDON. Well, what I mean by “arrested” is if you were formally
charged with something?
Mr. RUBY. Like a felony?
Mr. HERNDON. Well, any type of a formal arrest, wherein you actually
were arrested and charged before a magistrate, of offending a law
that’s on the record, either of a community, a city, or the State.
Mr. RUBY. You don’t necessarily have to have been found guilty or
anything, just the point of being arrested, is that right?
Mr. HERNDON. Now, let me inject this, Mr. Ruby. If these questions
when I ask them, if you have something in doubt in your mind of how to
answer it “Yes” or “No,” just refrain from answering it, and we’ll go
back after the test and discuss it.
Mr. RUBY. Very well.
Mr. HERNDON. In other words, I want you to be able to freely and
truthfully say “Yes” or “No” to these questions. If one of them leaves
any area of doubt in your mind and you are hesitant to answer it, feel
free not to say anything, and we will just proceed, and after I stop
the instrument, I will then go over that question with you. All right,
sir?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, I’ll just briefly hook up the
instrument and I’ll probably run it for a little while just to get it
adjusted to you, and inasmuch as you’ve never had a polygraph before, I
will explain the instrument’s parts to you. You can see here, Mr. Ruby,
I have a rubber tube and I’m going to place that around your chest,
sir. This is what we call the pneumograph and that will accurately
record you respiratory pattern as you inhale and exhale. Would you be
kind enough to raise your arms, sir?
Mr. RUBY (complied with request of Mr. Herndon).
(Reporter’s note: 2:58 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. Now, as you can see, as you inhale the tube stretches, and
as you exhale it decreases in size and I will have a tracing of it on
the polygraph.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. During the examination and as we run the test, I would
appreciate it if you would sit perfectly relaxed, rather straight in
the chair, with both of your feet flat on the floor. Now, that will
record, during the interview, the tracing of your breathing, and I want
you for this reason to breathe perfectly normal and perfectly relaxed.
Now, the next thing I want to put on will be on your hand and I’ll put
it on your right hand here. I notice you have one finger cut off on
that hand. What happened there, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, running a nightclub you get involved in various
altercations.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, this next component that I want you to see will be
what we call the Galvanic Skin Response, GSR. I’m going to place these
on your fingers, and actually all this simply does, through these
instruments and the electronic processes, is to record any variance
in the electrical conductivity or the resistance of your skin. It’s
helpful to me in this examination. Your hands are very good. They are
not sweating a bit. Is that too tight?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Is it uncomfortable?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby. Now, neither one of these two
components will you feel at all. That will be no problem at all.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, the next component that I will put on your left
arm, because it’s closer to your heart, and this is the cardiograph
cuff, and this is going to give me an accurate tracing of any relative
changes in your blood pressure. These will just be relative changes. I
won’t be able to necessarily know what your blood pressure is. I will
have relative blood pressure changes, and I will also have on a chart a
change in any heartbeat or heart rate you might have.
Now, I am going to record all these physiological responses as we
discuss the questions, and as you answer them I will have an indication
of what is taking place physiologically, what is going on in your
physical system, and which will assist me in interpreting whether or
not you may be deceiving with regard to the question.
Mr. RUBY. What is your name, please, sir?
Mr. WOOD. Wood. I’m with the FBI.
Mr. RUBY. Where is Shanklin, I thought he was supposed to be here?
Mr. WOOD. He is in town but he is not here.
Mr. RUBY. Isn’t Mr. Shanklin the chief?
Mr. HERNDON. Do you want to relax your arm, Mr. Ruby? Now, do you have
any questions about what I’ve done so far, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. No. Do you want me to relate my story to you now?
Mr. HERNDON. No; I want you to sit perfectly still. There will be no
conversation, and I’m going to get the instrument adjusted to you. That
will take only a few minutes, so just sit and try not to move. I’m not
going to ask you any questions at this time. I just want to adjust the
machine to you.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon, have you now covered all the preliminaries up
to the point of asking the questions?
Mr. HERNDON. Just about. I will probably repeat some basic instructions
for Mr. Ruby just before we start asking him the questions.
Mr. SPECTER. All right, then I think those who are going to leave
should leave now so that we are ready to go as soon as your instrument
is in tune.
May the record show that Mr. Alexander has left the room.
Mr. FOWLER. Jack, do you have any objections to Mr. Tonahill being here?
Mr. RUBY. If Tonahill is going to be here—I don’t believe he’s—I know
Bill Alexander is my friend, so he can stay, but Joe is supposed to be
my friend.
Mr. FOWLER. Well, we’re not putting it on that basis, Jack. This is
just purely personal.
Mr. RUBY. Just let me tell you this, Fowler. I have nothing to gain by
Joe being here, because—I have nothing to gain.
Mr. FOWLER. All right, all right. Then, we will ask Joe and Mr.
Alexander to step out.
Mr. RUBY. You still want Alexander to step out?
Mr. FOWLER. I certainly think so, Jack.
Mr. RUBY (addressing Mr. Alexander who was standing in the doorway to
the examining room). Now, Bill, don’t say I didn’t request you, now?
Mr. ALEXANDER. I know it, Jack.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill
have just gone out of the room.
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, it will take me a few moments to get this
adjusted. If you desire to talk to Mr. Fowler, if you can sit still and
talk it will be all right.
(Conference at this time between Mr. Fowler and Mr. Ruby out of the
hearing of the court reporter and others in the room.)
Mr. HERNDON. Do you want to sit still now, Mr. Ruby. I’m not going to
ask you any questions. I just want to get everything adjusted at this
time. You will hear a few scratching noises on the paper.
Now, will you take a deep breath, Mr. Ruby, and then relax, sir?
Mr. RUBY (complied with request of Mr. Herndon).
Mr. HERNDON. Now, just breathe normally.
Now, if everyone will just be quiet for a few moments. There will be no
questions asked. I just want to get the instrument adjusted.
(Reporter’s note: 3:05 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON (snapped his fingers twice). I made that noise purposely,
Mr. Ruby. Now, I’m going to let you get the feel of that cuff as I
inflate it, and there will be a little bit of pressure put against your
arm. You’ve had your blood pressure taken by a doctor, I’m sure?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes.
Mr. HERNDON. You recall that. It will be the same feeling and I will
have to leave it on just for a matter of a few moments, and if you
will sit perfectly still and put your feet flat on the floor and look
straight ahead.
I will now apply a little bit of pressure on that arm. You probably
feel a little pressure. All right, sir?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. From time to time I may come over and raise and lower your
arm to make sure it’s perfectly relaxed.
Mr. RUBY. That’s all right.
Mr. HERNDON. Do you feel your pulse beat?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. You can see and feel your pulse beat and in a moment
you can see how it records. Very fine, Mr. Ruby. You have been very
cooperative. I don’t think we will have any problem.
Mr. RUBY. You can see the differences of nature—if certain things are
wrong or right, can’t you?
Mr. HERNDON. Well, I have to very carefully interpret what I see.
I’m going to take all these things together at a later date into
consideration, and I don’t see any difficulty.
Mr. RUBY. Because—I want my chief to understand this here and see that.
Mr. HERNDON. Are you a little more relaxed now?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. You seem to be. I don’t want to begin until you feel you
are perfectly relaxed.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I’m very much relaxed because I have nothing—I’m not
sparring with it, so I must be relaxed.
Mr. HERNDON. Very fine. I appreciate your cooperation very much and you
are cooperating with me very well.
In a moment, you can move your hand a little bit to get a little
circulation. You probably felt just a little tingling sensation?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I felt a little bit of throbbing in these two fingers.
Mr. HERNDON. Are they too tight?
Mr. RUBY. No; that’s fine.
Mr. HERNDON. I can relax this a little bit on your arm. I just want it
close enough so that they won’t slip, just about like that. I don’t
want this to cause you any discomfort to you. Now, if you are about
ready?
Mr. RUBY. I am ready.
Mr. HERNDON. You remember, I’m going to ask you just the questions that
we discussed before and that’s all.
Mr. RUBY. You mean that’s all?
Mr. HERNDON. Oh, no; this is just series 1, Mr. Ruby. We’re going to
cover many questions.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to go rather deliberately slow on this first one
until you become acquainted with the procedure.
Mr. RUBY. Believe me, I know the answers, so you can ask me as fast as
you like.
Mr. HERNDON. During the test, again, if you will keep your feet on the
floor at all times, flat on the floor at all times, and try not to
move. I know it’s hard to sit perfectly still for the 3 to 4 minutes,
but it is to your advantage to try to keep from moving. If you have to
cough or move, I’ll probably observe it and take it into consideration.
During the examination, Mr. Ruby, I know we have other people in the
room, but I would appreciate it if you would just try to concentrate
as if there were just you and me in here and these questions are
coming out and if you know the answer in your own mind, I want you
to truthfully answer them “Yes” or “No.” Do not give any qualifying
statement or additional comments.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. HERNDON. On the other hand, if I come to one of these questions
that you’re not sure whether you want to say “Yes” or “No,” there is
some area in doubt, just don’t say anything and we’ll go back and
discuss it later.
Mr. RUBY. Okay.
Mr. HERNDON. If you will, look right over here, look straight ahead at
the wall and relax, and hear my question and give your answer to it,
“Yes” or “No.”
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HERNDON. I will tell you when I am going to begin. I will tell you
when this particular test is over, but do not relax or move until I
give you the word.
Mr. RUBY. Very well.
Mr. HERNDON. As I say, you will hear a little scratching noise and I
will be marking the paper as we proceed.
Mr. RUBY. Can I speak?
Mr. HERNDON. Right now if you want to; yes, sir.
Mr. RUBY. Fowler, I beg you to get Bill Alexander and Joe Tonahill back
in here. I tell you. Will you do it, please.
Mr. FOWLER. Jack, let’s go on just like it is now. I don’t want you to
have any apprehensions that we’re trying to keep anybody out.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. HERNDON. It’s taking me about a minute to get the instrument warmed
up again here.
All right, I will now put a little pressure on that arm, Mr. Ruby, and
I will let you know when I’m going to begin. Once again, just answer
the questions truthfully, “Yes” or “No.”
(Reporter’s note: 3:10 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. The test will now begin.
“Is your first name Jack?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Is your last name Ruby?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you voluntarily request this test?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you know Oswald before November 22, 1963?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Do you use the middle name ‘Leon’?”
Mr. RUBY (no immediate response). How can I answer that? I don’t have
my driver’s license, but I don’t use it.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, just sit still and we will discuss it. “Did you
assist Oswald in the assassination?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Have you ever been arrested?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you take any medication this morning?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Have you answered all my questions truthfully?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. This first series is over. If you will just sit still for
a moment, I will release the pressure on your arm, and you may now move
your arm and relax and get the circulation moving.
Mr. RUBY. I’m all right.
Mr. HERNDON. That wasn’t too bad, sir; was it?
Mr. RUBY (no response).
(Reporter’s note: 3:12 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, there are two questions I want to ask you about
on our first series.
I know you couldn’t refrain from laughing and talking about that middle
name of “Leon.” Do you want to further explain that?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I don’t use it, so hence it’s sort of a remembrance
of a very good friend of mine. I used it on my driver’s license, but
since then it has become a habit of keeping it on my driver’s license,
but I’ve never been called with it and very rarely do I sign papers
that way, but once I stated it on my driver’s license, I had to follow
through with it that way, and that’s the answer to it. Once you have it
on your driver’s license, you have to have it the same way.
Mr. HERNDON. Do you like the name “Leon”?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I did more for sentimental reasons, but as I went along
later I sort of dropped it.
Mr. HERNDON. Is it actually on your driver’s license, though?
Mr. RUBY. I think it’s Jack L. Ruby. No—Jack Leon Ruby. It’s Jack
Leon Ruby on my driver’s license and that’s something that once you
start with it, and its been years ago, when you renew your license,
it remains the same, but outside of signing papers or contracts or
anything of vital importance, you only find out it’s much simpler to
sign “Jack Ruby.”
Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, and one other question. I would just
like to ask you what went on in your mind when you did answer the
question “Yes” to “Have you ever been arrested?”
Mr. RUBY. Well, the police had taken me—I had been arrested, because
when the police officer said, “Jack, come on, we’re taking you down,”
you’re arrested.
Mr. HERNDON. When was this? Are you referring to this current or some
previous time?
Mr. RUBY. Previous to that.
Mr. HERNDON. What situation was that?
Mr. RUBY. Well, it was—I was arrested for dancing after curfew. Some
fellows smuggled in intoxicants after hours.
Mr. HERNDON. Was this here in your own place or some other place?
Mr. RUBY. At my own place. No felony crime, nothing serious—only
misdemeanors.
Mr. HERNDON. You consider that was a misdemeanor?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes; in other words—a $25 fine. I never have been in any
criminal activity.
Mr. HERNDON. Very fine. Does your arm feel all right now?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Very good. We have finished with the first series.
Mr. SPECTER. I am now going to ask Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill to
return between now and the time we start on the next test.
May the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill are back in the
room.
Mr. HERNDON. Did the cardiounit disturb you at all other than just a
slight tingling sensation?
Mr. RUBY. In this arm here [indicating left arm]?
Mr. HERNDON. Did that bother you before the series No. 1 group?
Mr. RUBY. No; that’s fine.
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, you are now a veteran of the first series. You
did real well. You cooperated very fine.
Now, we will proceed with series No. 2. I want to go over these
questions with you so that you and I understand precisely and perfectly
what they mean.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, in this series of questions, I am going to ask as one
of the ones which is pertinent in this investigation, “Are you now a
member of the Communist Party?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. You don’t have to answer that if you don’t want to now,
but I’m going to ask you that question, sir.
Mr. RUBY. OK.
Mr. HERNDON. You understand what I mean by that—that’s about as short
and sweet as we can get it.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask you, “Have you ever been a member of the
Communist Party?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. You understand the difference—one is now and one is—have
been perhaps sometimes in your youth or life—if you were affiliated
with the Communist Party.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I understand.
Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask you this question, Mr. Ruby: “Are you
now a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the
United States Government?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Do you understand that question?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask: “Have you ever been a member of any
group that advocates the violent overthrow of the United States
Government?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. It’s very similar, only it’s in the past tense.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, on those two questions—we can’t go through all
of those groups which advocate the overthrow of the United States
Government, so we are generalizing with respect to them.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. You have indicated you understand them?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; and my answer is “No—no collaborating.”
Mr. SPECTER. I don’t think it is necessary to elaborate on that.
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, in addition to those questions, I’m going to
ask you a relatively simple question as this, that you should be able
to answer “Yes” or “No.” “Were you born in the United States?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Were you born in Chicago?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, this next question I’m going to ask you, you don’t
have to answer it now. You can discuss it with me later or you can wait
and decide what you want to answer to it. “Did you ever make a false
official statement?”
Now, that’s a general question and I realize that, Mr. Ruby, and when
I ask that question, obviously your mind probably went back to many
things. We make a lot of official statements. Now, I’m asking that
question in its broadest terms. In other words, to your recollection,
have you ever made a false official statement?
Mr. RUBY. When you say “official”—for instance, in order to have a
job years ago—I want to explain this to you. In order to work in
a department store, I had to use another name because this other
person would be the right age that I could work, but outside of that,
officials—to any authorities—I haven’t.
Mr. HERNDON. Obviously, this department store thing came to your mind
when I asked that question?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Well, sir, I’m glad you brought that out so I will have an
understanding that that was in your mind. What I mean here, however,
is something more in the nature of an application for a license,
an application for a permit, an application for insurance—anything
that would come within the jurisdiction of being somewhat a legal or
semilegal form or application?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. I want to make sure you understand what I mean by that
question.
Then, I’ll probably ask, I understand you were born in 1911, is that
correct?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. These are questions of identity—“Were you born in 1911?”
Now, let me see, gentlemen, if we have gone over all the questions. I
have gone over all the questions with Mr. Ruby that I’m going to ask
for this next series.
Mr. SPECTER. All right, prior to the administration of the second
series, Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill are now leaving the room again.
May the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill have now
departed from the room.
(Reporter’s note: 3:20 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. All right, now just relax. Can I get you a drink of water
or anything, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. No; I’m perfectly all right.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, very fine. Once again, if you will try to
refrain from moving, simply look straight again, and sit perfectly
still and answer the questions “Yes” or “No.” I again will tell you
when I am going to begin, Mr. Ruby.
Now, are you relaxed? Are you OK?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. How does your arm feel? I noticed you had a little bit of
pressure there around the cuff. Is the circulation all right?
Mr. RUBY. Fine.
Mr. HERNDON. You feel fine?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. It will take me a moment again here to get the instrument
adjusted. Before I put any pressure on the cuff, Mr. Ruby, I’m going
to just tighten this up just slightly, do you want to move up just a
moment? Does that bind you in any way or is it too tight [checking tube
around Mr. Ruby’s chest]?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, now just lean back relax. All right, sir. Now,
we’re getting a better tracing. All right, I am going to now put a
little pressure on and I will tell you when I am going to begin.
(Reporter’s note: 3:23 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. Now, I’m checking this just so you can raise and lower
your arm and keep relaxed. Look straight ahead, Mr. Ruby.
(Reporter’s note: 3:25 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. I will now begin.
“Were you born in the United States?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Were you born in Chicago?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Are you now a member of the Communist Party?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Have you ever been known by another name?”
Don’t answer that question. I didn’t review it before. Skip it. Just
sit and relax.
“Have you ever been a member of the Communist Party?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever make a false official statement?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Are you now a member of any group that advocates the
violent overthrow of the United States Government?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Have you ever been a member of any group that advocates
violent overthrow of the United States Government?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Were you born in 1911?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. That concludes that series. Just sit still for a moment,
sir.
All right, you may now move your arm and relax, Mr. Ruby.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
(Reporter’s note: 3:27 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. There was one irrelevant question that I failed to mention
here. We will discuss that in a moment, and that is, “Have you ever
been known by another name?”
You might want to mention that to the gentlemen, as a matter of record.
I told him to refrain from answering it. It’s really not that pertinent.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine, we will bring it to their attention.
Mr. HERNDON. But, as long as I did ask it, if you want, I’d like him to
answer it before the other gentlemen come in.
Mr. SPECTER. I think that’s all right.
Mr. RUBY. Have I ever had it changed legally, is that what you meant?
Mr. HERNDON. In other words, when I asked you that question, I realized
I hadn’t gone over it.
Mr. RUBY. That’s all right.
Mr. HERNDON. Therefore—I know you hesitated to answer it.
Mr. RUBY. Well, I have two names—my name was Rubenstein and was changed
to Ruby.
Mr. HERNDON. That’s what came to your mind, the fact that you actually
had your name changed?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. We are now between series Nos. 2 and 3?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. How many series do I have now?
Mr. HERNDON. I don’t know quite yet, Mr. Ruby.
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill
are back in the room.
Gentlemen, there was one question which Mr. Herndon did not go over
in advance and that was, “Was Mr. Ruby ever known by any other name?”
Since he did ask it, but since it was obvious as soon as he had asked
it that he had not gone over it, he asked Mr. Ruby not to answer it,
and when the series was over, he asked Mr. Ruby the question again and
Mr. Ruby said that he had been known previously as “Jack Rubenstein”
and had legally changed his name. With that one variation, all the
questions asked during that series were identical with those discussed
before you left the room.
Mr. HERNDON. My apologies, gentlemen, but it was an irrelevant question.
Mr. Ruby, we shall now proceed to what we call series No. 3. Here again
these questions are going to be intermixed, some rather pertinent to
what we’re interested in here, others general questions. Let me go over
the relevant questions, first, Mr. Ruby.
“Between the assassination and the shooting, did anybody you know tell
you they knew Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, you understand, Mr. Ruby, when he says “the
shooting,” that means the shooting of Oswald?
Mr. RUBY. Repeat that over again—let me hear it again.
Mr. HERNDON. I think you realized that, but I want to make certain
that you understand, and I want to go back and break down that
question—between the assassination of President Kennedy and the
shooting—now, the shooting I mean is the shooting of Oswald?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes—yes—the answer is “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. I realize you understood the question, but the shooting
in some other person’s mind could be many things. I want to keep these
sentences as concise and short as possible.
“Did anybody you know tell you they knew Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Do you understand the question, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you tell anyone that you were thinking of shooting
Oswald before you did it?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Is that question all right, do you understand it?
Mr. RUBY. Yes—I take that back. Sunday morning—I want to elaborate on
that—before I left my apartment—it evidently didn’t register with the
person because of the way I said it. In other words, the whole basis
of this whole thing was that Mrs. Kennedy would have to come back for
trial.
Mr. FOWLER. Jack, let me ask you at this time—excuse my interruption,
but why don’t you just address yourself to the general questions that
are asked you. I think it’s all right.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. FOWLER. I don’t think it will help the Commission, and this may be
in the form of a question later on, but just confine your answer to
“Yes” or “No.”
Mr. RUBY. Well, the thing is this—I have to answer—ask me the question
again.
Mr. HERNDON. Let’s go over it once more, Mr. Ruby, and I want you to be
able to be in a position that you can freely, honestly, and truthfully
answer it simply “Yes” or “No.”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, if there’s something in here in this area that
troubles you, we can rephrase the question.
Mr. RUBY. Will you specify the time—the time element is very important.
Mr. HERNDON. The only time element is before—before you did it. Now,
“before” is a very broad coverage?
Mr. RUBY. That’s it. That’s a difficult question to answer.
Mr. HERNDON. That’s the way the question is worded. Let me ask it again
and see if you want to discuss it. “Did you tell anyone that you were
thinking of shooting Oswald before you did it?”
Mr. RUBY [no response].
Mr. HERNDON. If you want me to reword that question, I’ll take it up
with Mr. Specter.
Mr. RUBY. Why don’t you say this—“that Sunday morning, specifically?”
That would be easier for me to answer.
Mr. HERNDON. In other words, “Did you tell anyone you were thinking of
shooting Oswald on Sunday morning?”
Mr. FOWLER. Jack, again, excuse me, sir.
Mr. RUBY. Fowler, it puts me in a tough spot when he asks me that
question and I evade it.
Mr. FOWLER. I understand this, but I’m talking now specifically about
in the presence of Mr. Alexander. Now, later on, if you want to answer
it “Yes” or “No” to that question, it’s perfectly all right. I want you
to fully understand the question.
Mr. HERNDON. I want to bow, of course, to Mr. Specter, of course, for
the way the Commission desires it.
Mr. SPECTER. If you would like us to break it down, we could do it in
two questions. “Did you tell anybody on Sunday morning that you were
going to shoot Oswald before you did it?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes, that’s easier to answer.
Mr. SPECTER. Then, we can ask you this: “Before Sunday morning did you
tell anybody you intended to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. Now, that’s a better way to ask it—the last question.
Mr. SPECTER. Then, we’ve covered all the time in two parts.
Mr. RUBY. The last question you asked me is a better way to ask me. The
last question you asked, my answer is “No.”
Mr. SPECTER. Then, we’ll want to ask you a followup question.
Mr. RUBY. Do you understand what I’m saying—did you understand what I
said?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, I understand what you’re saying, but we will want to
ask you for the purpose of the test, “On Sunday morning did you tell
anybody that you intended to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. All right. I’ll answer it.
Mr. HERNDON. If I could get the court reporter to read back how you
phrased that question, so that we could both agree on it.
COURT REPORTER. “On Sunday morning did you tell anybody that you
intended to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. SPECTER. There are two questions. “Before Sunday morning, did
you tell anyone you intended to shoot Oswald?” That’s all right for
one question. Now, write this one down, Mr. Herndon. The question is
“Before Sunday morning did you tell anyone that you intended to shoot
Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. Now, before Sunday morning means any time element beyond the
time I left my apartment. Is that what you’re referring to when you say
Sunday morning?
Mr. SPECTER. Well, I’ll even change that and I’ll say “Before you left
your apartment on Sunday morning, did you tell anyone you intended to
shoot Oswald?”
Now, the following question will be: “From the time you left your
apartment on Sunday morning, did you tell anyone you intended to shoot
Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. Now, you better rephrase that. I hadn’t already left the
apartment. Do you follow me?
Mr. SPECTER. Right. Well, I see what you’re driving at—you’re driving
at the time.
Mr. RUBY. The time element is very important.
Mr. SPECTER. All right, we can make it in three parts: “While you were
at your apartment on Sunday morning, did you tell anyone you intended
to shoot Oswald?”
Now, we’ve broken it up three ways. That would really be covered, Mr.
Ruby, in the first part: “Before you left your apartment on Sunday
morning, did you tell anyone you intended to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. Now, you’ve got to get another question in there: “Previous
to your arising that morning, have you told anyone you’re going to
shoot Oswald?” You see my point?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; before you awakened, in other words?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. “Before you awakened on Sunday morning, had you told
anyone you intended to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. Before I awakened.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, I don’t want to leave any area of
questionableness here or ambiguity—of course, you didn’t say in your
sleep this, so perhaps we ought to phrase it “Before you went to bed on
Saturday night or early Sunday morning did you tell anyone you intended
to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. That’s right.
Mr. HERNDON. Would you repeat that, Mr. Specter?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes. “Before you went to bed——”
What time did you go to bed that night?
Mr. RUBY. At 1:15 or 1:30, but you must put it specifically—also,
whether I received any phone calls from the time I went to bed and the
time I arose. Do you follow me? In other words, I could clear myself by
answering that question truthfully, but I could have received a phone
call in between the time I went to bed and the time I awakened.
Mr. HERNDON. So, the area we’re trying to cover here, Mr. Ruby, as I
see it is—if you did tell anyone you were thinking of doing this—the
approximate time.
Is that what we’re getting at, Mr. Specter?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, we can phrase that in several different ways. If your
recollection is that good that you specifically recall an incident, you
can tell me how you want me to ask it.
Mr. ALEXANDER. May I make a suggestion?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Ask it, “Did you tell someone by telephone you intended
to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. Plus the fact that I think it should be included, “Did I talk
to anyone before going to bed?”
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Specter?
Mr. FOWLER. Now, we will certainly object to a question being framed by
this attorney.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Fowler, do I understand your position correctly, that
you are concerned about the disclosure of this information in the
presence of Mr. Alexander?
Mr. FOWLER. I am.
Mr. SPECTER. But, do you have any concern about disclosing the answer
to this question to the Commission?
Mr. FOWLER. None whatsoever.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, would it be agreeable with you if Mr. Alexander
leaves while this question is being formulated so we can understand it,
and then that he comes back when we have formulated it?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack knows that I know the answer to it, so there’s no
use in anybody getting upset about it.
Mr. RUBY. Are you sure you know the answer to it?
Mr. ALEXANDER. I think so, Jack.
Mr. FOWLER. It would be preferable if he would leave.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Alexander, do you have any objection to stepping out
just while we formulate this question?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Not at all, not at all. Come on Joe.
Mr. TONAHILL. I don’t have to go.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Alexander has now departed, may the record show.
All right, Mr. Ruby, we want to phrase the question in accordance with
polygraph procedure in a way that gets to the point, as you see the
point. So, tell us exactly what you have in mind here.
Mr. RUBY. Well, you had better remind me again.
Mr. HERNDON. Here’s the area we’re trying to cover. Here’s the question
I originally asked you which created all this problem. “Between the
assassination and the shooting”—now, let me start that again—“Did you
tell anyone that you were thinking of shooting Oswald before you did?”
Now, I tried to put that as plainly as I could. I’m not interested here
in the area of when——
Mr. RUBY. Yes, but if you’re speaking in the area of when, it’s pretty
incriminating. It’s a long premeditation, then, of time element.
Mr. HERNDON. I think the Commission here has its question of whether or
not you did tell anybody?
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, if you have no objection to answering that
question, we would like you to do so now for purposes of giving us
information, and then we will test you in just a minute as we go
through with the polygraph, if you’re willing to answer that question?
Mr. RUBY. Clayton?
Mr. FOWLER. Jack, let me say this—now, this is the very crux of your
case. In other words, if there is premeditation on your part to
murder or to kill, this can and will be used against you, and this
information—let’s project it a little bit and say that you do get a new
trial, and that between now and that the Warren Commission releases
their information for public consumption or to the district attorney’s
office or to anybody else, then, if your answer to these questions
might be “Yes,” then it would be most difficult to appear and defend
you.
Mr. RUBY. Clayton, I’m here to tell the truth. I don’t know how the
heck to answer it. I appreciate you’re in a tough spot.
Mr. FOWLER. Well, of course, as you can readily see, this is why we
advised you not to take this.
Mr. RUBY. That’s why I want it, because I know what’s best for me.
Mr. FOWLER. Well, I don’t think you do, Jack.
Mr. RUBY. Can I overrule you, Clayton, where you won’t be too angry if
I overrule you?
Mr. FOWLER. Well, I have no—I’m not going to put a cob in your mouth,
Jack.
Mr. RUBY. Can I ask one more favor of you?
Mr. FOWLER. Sure.
Mr. RUBY. Will you let those two gentlemen back in the room, at your
request?
Mr. FOWLER. Not at my request; no, sir.
Mr. RUBY. Please, Clayton?
Mr. FOWLER. If you leave that up to me, I say, “No.”
Mr. RUBY. All right, I’m going to answer your question.
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, why don’t I just go over with you once again all
of them, for this series of questions.
Mr. SPECTER. At this time, I would like to ask Mr. Ruby if he is
willing to answer the question about the conversations. I would like to
develop the information about the conversations so that we will know
it is factual. This would be an extended question of the nature that
the Chief Justice asked you on June 7—if you’re willing to answer my
question to you at this time, which is: “Did you tell anybody that you
intended to shoot Oswald at any time before you did it?” And, I would
follow that up, if you answer that question, with, “Whom did you tell
and when?” With that information, we can then formulate these questions
for the lie detector test to see if you’re telling the truth.
Mr. RUBY. Clayton, please? I’ve got to do this? I’ve got to, because I
told it to the Warren Commission.
Mr. FOWLER. In other words, these questions have already been talked
about?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; and will you ask them to come in?
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Fowler, I don’t know that they have. I have reviewed
the transcript, but I don’t know that we’ve asked these before, but he
answered everything that was asked of him in the last session.
Mr. RUBY. Yes, I was very voluntary.
Mr. SPECTER. We deliberately didn’t go into some areas, suffice it to
say, for certain purposes. But this is the question we’re concerned
with at the moment, and we would like an answer substantively, in
addition to testing his truthfulness. It comes to a head when we try
to formulate the questions for the polygraph, because we really have
to get the underlying facts, and then we can point our efforts to see
whether he’s telling the truth according to the indicators from the
examination.
Mr. FOWLER. Again, I don’t believe certainly he understands the full
complicity of this thing. If there are any questions that are asked
that show premeditation on his part, I would respectfully ask that he
decline to answer and that you decline to ask it.
Mr. RUBY. But it’s already in there. I’ve already told it to the Warren
Commission.
Mr. FOWLER. Now, if there is an area that has been covered already and
you still wish to go into it—I don’t want this man——
Mr. RUBY. So, would you mind calling Alexander in?
Mr. FOWLER. Listen, Jack, will you please listen to me? This man got up
down there and asked the jury to send you to the electric chair.
Mr. RUBY. I know it.
Mr. FOWLER. He has not changed his opinion yet, and he will again
ask it at some later date. Now, is this the kind of man you want to
pussyfoot around in here with and let listen to these questions? Just
“Yes” or “No”—if it is—we’ll bring him back in.
Mr. RUBY. Yes: I want him in here, and I want you to ask him to come
in, please.
Mr. FOWLER. I won’t ask him to come in.
Mr. RUBY. Joe, ask him to come in.
Mr. TONAHILL. No; Clayton is your chief counsel and I’m going to
respect his desires.
Mr. RUBY. Chief—I know.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, I will ask him to come in, Mr. Ruby. I’m willing to
bring him back, if that’s your request.
Mr. FOWLER. I would like this record to reflect that this is against
the advice of his attorneys present, and that it will be very
detrimental to, No. 1, his appeal, and No. 2, perhaps to any clemency
that might be asked for in the future, and No. 3, for the actual trial
of the case on the merits, if such ever occurs.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, the Commission can proceed and conduct this
test and not bring him back. I want you to be clear on that point,
that these men do not have to be here for the purposes of getting this
information for the Commission, so we will know all the facts, or for
the purposes of conducting this test. So, it’s really extraneous. It
doesn’t really matter for them to be in here for the tests.
Mr. FOWLER. Jack, why do you want them back?
Mr. RUBY. Because I happen to know what I’m talking about.
Mr. TONAHILL. Now, Jack——
Mr. RUBY. Joe, you’re not my attorney any more. We know it. We
understand one another, please. You’re not helping me.
Mr. FOWLER. Let’s just direct our attention right now, Jack, to the
things that are near to you. Why do you want Mr. Alexander here?
Mr. RUBY. I feel I don’t want him to think I’m holding out on anything.
I don’t want him to have any idea that I’m reluctant to answer things
in front of him, believe me.
Mr. FOWLER. Listen, at some future date—yes. Perhaps in a trial,
another trial, yes. When you are on the witness stand, if you are able
to go to the witness stand, perhaps these questions will be directed
to you at that time, and you can make a full disclosure before a jury,
but I respectfully request that you do not do it in the presence of a
district attorney.
Mr. RUBY. But Clayton, they know all these questions already. Henry
Wade, I spoke to, and I told him all this.
Mr. FOWLER. Well, if he knows them already, then why not just let him
stay out? You’re not trying to impress him, are you? Do you think that
he can do anything to help you right now?
Mr. RUBY. No, no; but the thing is that I have a few other thoughts in
mind, as you well know about.
Mr. FOWLER. What are they, Jack?
Mr. RUBY. That I spoke to you about for your consideration.
Mr. FOWLER. Jack, I’m not worried, I’m not concerned about anybody
trying to do away with me. This is the least of my worries. Nobody has
threatened me about this thing. Nobody has coerced me in any way.
Mr. RUBY. I want harmony, that’s what I want. I want harmony with you
and the district attorney’s office.
Mr. FOWLER. Well, we can’t harmonize over your situation, I’m sorry.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, the point we got to was the question of getting the
substantive information out before going on with the test. Did you
tell anyone that you intended to shoot Oswald?
Mr. HERNDON. You mean—before?
Mr. SPECTER. Well, I don’t know if we’re going to get an answer to it
or not.
Mr. FOWLER. Jack, now the question that is being directed to you at
this time—well, go right ahead.
Mr. RUBY. Yes: Sunday morning.
Mr. SPECTER. And whom did you tell?
Mr. RUBY. George Senator.
Mr. SPECTER. And where were you at the time you discussed it with him?
Mr. RUBY. In my apartment.
Mr. SPECTER. And state in as precise words as you can remember, just
what you said to him and he said to you at that time?
Mr. RUBY. Well, he didn’t say anything—the funny part—he was reading
the paper and I doubt if he even recalled me saying it. I have to
elaborate on it, but I was so carried away emotionally that I said—I
don’t know how I said it—I didn’t say it in any vulgar manner—I said,
“If something happened to this person, that then Mrs. Kennedy won’t
have to come back for the trial.” That’s all I said. Now, would you
mind asking me on that particular point? That happened Sunday morning.
That’s the only time any thought ever came to my mind, because that
morning I read some articles in the newspaper that she would have to
come back to trial.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever say to anybody, “I am going to shoot Oswald,”
or anything to the effect that, “I am going to shoot or kill him”?
Mr. RUBY. No; I just made the statement—that’s the only thing I said.
Mr. SPECTER. That statement you made to George Senator, that’s the only
thing, that’s the closest you came to saying it?
Mr. RUBY. That Sunday morning before I left my apartment.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever tell Randolph Paul you were going to shoot
him?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t even know a Randolph Paul.
Mr. SPECTER. How about Breck Wall?
Mr. RUBY. I know I never said that to Breck Wall.
Mr. SPECTER. Perhaps the name was Ralph Paul. Did you ever say it to
Ralph Paul?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, let’s prepare the question this way, if we may, Mr.
Herndon: “Aside from anything you said to George Senator, did you ever
tell anyone you intended to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, is that formulation acceptable for purposes of the
test, Mr. Herndon?
Mr. HERNDON. I want to make sure I get it correct.
Mr. SPECTER. “Aside from anything you said to George Senator, did you
ever tell anyone else you intended to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. In the flippant way I said it, I doubt if he’d even—you
know—the poor guy may not even have remembered it. We never discussed
it after that.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the exact time you recollect you said that to him?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know—it was about 10:15 Sunday morning.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately?
Mr. RUBY. Well, you know—10 minutes either way.
Mr. SPECTER. All right, Mr. Fowler, we will phrase the question in that
way, but that phraseology of the question carries certain implications
which you understand.
Mr. RUBY. May I repeat that question once more to make sure it’s
accurate?
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Alexander can come back in.
(Mr. Alexander at this time entered the room.)
Mr. SPECTER. We have now formulated the question, Mr. Alexander, and
Mr. Herndon will now read it, together with the other questions he
intends to ask in this series.
Mr. HERNDON. The question is, “Aside from anything you said to George
Senator, did you ever tell anyone else that you intended to shoot
Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. That will be one of the questions on the next series.
Mr. Specter, do you want that to be in lieu of this one or in addition
to this question?
Mr. SPECTER. Let’s ask it in lieu of that question. Strike the other
question, the original question.
Mr. HERNDON. Strike the original question that commences, “Did you tell
anyone you were thinking about”?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; that’s the one we’ve been talking about.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Is this still series 3?
Mr. HERNDON. We’re still on series 3. Mr. Alexander. As a matter of
fact, if it’s all right with you gentleman, I’d like to start right
over again on series 3.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, I think we have that one area resolved.
Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask you as we said originally—before—back in
the testimony. “Between the assassination and the shooting, did anybody
you know tell you they knew Oswald?”
Then, the other relative or pertinent question here will be, “Aside
from anything you said to George Senator, did you ever tell anyone else
that you intended to shoot Oswald?”
And, in addition to those questions, I will ask on this series the
following questions——
Mr. RUBY. Why don’t you add—in—let’s get the time element in there,
too, because that was Sunday morning.
Mr. HERNDON. Well, I don’t want to make these questions too long.
Mr. RUBY. I know, but I want this because somebody might think that I
mentioned it 2 days prior to that.
Mr. SPECTER. We can add if you want to. “Aside from anything you said
to George Senator on Sunday morning, did you ever tell anyone else that
you intended to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. OK.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, we’re going to insert after “George
Senator”—“on Sunday morning.” Here again, the Sunday morning being that
time after you woke up and prior to noon.
Mr. RUBY. Remember, it was the flippant way I said it that I doubt if
the poor soul remembered it.
Mr. HERNDON. The other questions in this series will be as follows,
Mr. Ruby. Here again are some of the irrelevant questions. “Is your
last name Ruby? Do you live in Dallas?” I’m going to ask you “Are you
married?” Just for the record, I understand you’re single, so you could
answer that “No.” “Were you in the military service?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask you this question: “While in service,”
and I mean the military service, “did you receive any disciplinary
action?” Do you understand that question?
Mr. RUBY. In other words, “While you were in the military, were you
hurt?”
Mr. HERNDON. No; Mr. Ruby, disciplinary action. Were you
court-martialed, captains’ mast, or any disciplinary action?
Mr. RUBY. None whatsoever.
Mr. HERNDON. There’s one other relevant question I want to ask on this
series and I put it as simply as I can. “Did you shoot Oswald in order
to silence him?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. One other question: “Have you ever served time in jail?”
Now, what I mean by that question, Mr. Ruby, is not this present
custody but any other time. “Did you ever actually serve time in jail?”
Mr. RUBY. I have served 30 days—I mean—that would answer it.
Mr. HERNDON. Then, you can answer that?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. If that comes to mind, you could say, “Yes.”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, let me make sure we’ve gone over these questions. Do
you feel all right, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, we will proceed.
Mr. RUBY. That 30 days embarrasses me, because it was with reference to
selling some song sheets back in the old depression days, and it wasn’t
for anything criminal. It was something that I didn’t realize at the
time there were copyrights on those songs. So, I don’t want to become a
felon just because—outside of what I am now.
Mr. HERNDON. Well, these questions, I don’t mean to embarrass you,
Mr. Ruby. I want to ask these questions because they’re going to help
me later on, and I want to get some of these other questions on your
background. Was that in Chicago?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. When you explained about the song sheets?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I made a pretty good living at that time.
Mr. HERNDON. You still recall that and it embarrasses you?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. I will be ready to start series 3 in a moment.
Mr. SPECTER. All right, if Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill will leave
the room, we will proceed with series 3.
May the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill are now absent.
(Reporter’s note: 3:58 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. Of course, we have been moving around and talking,
Mr. Ruby, I’m going to make a few minor adjustments here. Are you
comfortable, sir?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, I’m going to put this up a little higher on your
chest, and I want you to lean back and relax. Do you want to put your
feet flat on the floor during the test, if you will.
All right. I again will tell you when we actually start the test. I’m
going to put a little pressure on the arm, and once again, on these
questions, if you will answer them simply “Yes” or “No” truthfully.
Will you look straight ahead, please, sir.
(Reporter’s note: 3:59 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. The test will now begin. Look straight ahead, Mr. Ruby.
“Is your last name Ruby?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Do you live in Dallas?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Between the assassination and the shooting, did anybody
you know tell you they knew Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Are you married?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Aside from anything you said to George Senator on Sunday
morning, did you ever tell anyone else that you intended to shoot
Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Were you in the military service?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “While in service did you receive any disciplinary action?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald in order to silence him?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Have you ever served time in jail?”
Mr. RUBY (no response).
Mr. HERNDON. The test is over. Sit still for a moment and we will
release the pressure on your arm.
Do you feel a little better when I release that pressure?
Mr. RUBY. When you elaborate on “serving time”, 30 days isn’t serving
time.
Mr. HERNDON. I was going to ask you to explain that, and you followed
instructions explicitly there.
Then, actually in explanation to that, this 30 days to you were
insignificant?
Mr. RUBY. Well, yes, but I explained that.
Mr. HERNDON. That’s all right. I have to ask these questions.
Mr. RUBY. To serve time is when you refer to a man being in the
penitentiary.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, there are a few questions I want to ask him with
regard to that series.
Mr. SPECTER. Go ahead.
Mr. HERNDON. Just two points I want to clarify for my own use here.
Mr. Ruby, I asked you. “Are you married?” and you replied “No.” Could
you tell me if anything went on in your mind at the time you responded
“No”?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I was thinking of the young girl, that had I been
married I wouldn’t have been in this trouble. I guess that’s what
flashed back in my mind.
Mr. HERNDON. Is this a former sweetheart?
Mr. RUBY. Yes. What else?
Mr. HERNDON. I just wanted to get your explanation at that particular
point?
Mr. RUBY. You noticed something there?
Mr. HERNDON. Did you feel anything?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I knew I wasn’t—something was working on me when you
asked me that. I would probably have been living in another part of the
city, and I wouldn’t have been involved in this.
Mr. HERNDON. Do you recall the girl’s name?
Mr. RUBY. Yes—Alice Nichols.
Mr. HERNDON. And how long ago was this that you were acquainted with
her?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, for many years, and I guess we severed relations in
1959—“relations”—I meant our company.
Mr. HERNDON. That’s the last time you were dating?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; we were engaged and so on.
Mr. HERNDON. You never actually married this young lady?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir. That’s why you see me in a moment of despair—like I
am.
Mr. HERNDON. Did you ever consider marrying her?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; yes.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, that clarifies that question for me. One other
area I’d like you to speak frankly and freely on, and here again it
gets back to this military service. I asked you, “While in the military
service, did you ever receive any disciplinary action?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Did you ever get in any trouble at all while you were in
the service that came to your mind during that question?
Mr. RUBY. When you say “trouble”?
Mr. HERNDON. Disciplinary action for trouble?
Mr. RUBY. No; I have never been called down for anything. I may have
had a brawl with another soldier.
Mr. HERNDON. Did you while you were in the service ever have a fight?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; but when you speak of “disciplinary” is when you go
before a court-martial or the colonel calls you in or something happens.
Mr. HERNDON. Were you called in before the commanding officer?
Mr. RUBY. Sure; but it’s not important enough to answer. Evidently,
you’re getting a pretty good reading?
Mr. HERNDON. I’m having no technical difficulty with regard to giving
the test.
Mr. RUBY. I wish you would prove to my chief here, over there, how I
stand with you (referring to Mr. Holman).
Mr. HERNDON. I want to study these very carefully, of course, but you
have been very cooperative, as far as running the actual examination.
That will complete series 3.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine, I will call the gentlemen in.
Let the record show that Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander have returned.
Mr. HERNDON. We will go on to another series now. I am going to run a
little different type of examination, Mr. Ruby, if you still feel like
you want to continue. Do you want to take a break?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, I want to go on completely.
Mr. HERNDON. You are not tired?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. This next one will be relatively short, and it won’t take
too long.
I’m going to ask you these questions somewhat in sequence and in
consecutive order. There are five of them. They can be answered simply
by “yes” or “no.”
“Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Friday night?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Saturday morning?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald Sunday morning?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. And last, I’ll ask you, “Have you answered all questions
truthfully?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. In addition to those questions I’ve just asked, I’m going
to ask, again to establish identity, “Is your first name Jack?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Is your last name Ruby?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. I will ask you of those questions that I have just related
to you, those pertinent five questions in consecutive order, with
considerable spacing and time between—I believe you understand what I
mean by Friday night?
Mr. RUBY. Definitely—the period of meditation.
Mr. HERNDON. That’s right—in the evening after 6 o’clock, and Saturday
morning we consider as being that time from when you wake up until you
have lunch, and I think you understand these questions.
Mr. RUBY. Also, is there any way you can ask me if my family had known
of my doing anything like that?
Mr. HERNDON. We may possibly get into that area or perhaps take that up
with Mr. Specter.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, actually, Mr. Ruby, we have a great many questions
to ask you and there are certain limitations on the test.
Mr. HERNDON. I am going to proceed on this particular series now.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill are leaving the
room, and may the record show both have now departed.
(Reporter’s note: 4.08 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. Did you want to tell me something before, Mr. Ruby, before
I start?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Again, I will tell you when the test begins.
Will you let the record show that I have these designated as series 3a.
All right, do you feel all right now, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Sit perfectly still and try to concentrate and look
straight ahead and answer the questions truthfully “Yes” or “No.”
I now put some pressure on that arm cuff.
The test will now begin.
(Reporter’s note: 4:10 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. “Is your first name Jack?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes”.
Mr. HERNDON. “Is your last name Ruby?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes”.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Friday night?”
Mr. RUBY. “No”.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Saturday morning?”
Mr. RUBY. “No”.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Saturday night?”
Mr. Ruby. “No”.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Sunday morning?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes”.
Mr. HERNDON. “Have you answered all questions truthfully?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes”.
Mr. HERNDON. The test is over. Will you sit still a moment. I will
release the pressure on your arms. You may now move your hands and get
the circulation back.
(Reporter’s note: 4:12 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. I have no questions on that.
Mr. Ruby came in here what time—originally?
COURT REPORTER. My notes indicate around 2 p.m.
Mr. HERNDON. How do you feel, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Fine.
Mr. HERNDON. You’re not tired?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, you are perfectly relaxed?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. As long as Mr. Ruby feels fine, I think we can continue
and we can prepare the exact wording for the next series.
You may wish to bring the other gentlemen in.
Mr. SPECTER. All right, thank you.
Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill have returned
to the room.
(Conference off the record between Messrs. Specter and Herndon
regarding formulation of questions.)
Mr. RUBY. Joe?
Mr. TONAHILL. Yes, Jack.
(Conference between Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Ruby from 4:13 to 4:15 p.m.,
out of the hearing of this reporter and others in the room.)
Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, you are a good man.
Mr. RUBY. Who, Bill?
(Conference between Mr. Alexander and Mr. Ruby from 4:15 to 4:18 p.m.,
out of the hearing of this reporter and others in the room.)
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Holman, what time do you feed Mr. Ruby? What time do
you start the evening meal?
The JAILER. Well, we begin about 4:30 p.m.
Mr. HERNDON. Are you hungry. Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. No, I’m feeling fine.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, let’s go ahead with this series of questions and
then we will take about a 20-minute break.
(Conference between Mr. Alexander and Mr. Ruby from 4:22 to 4:25 p.m.,
out of the hearing of this reporter and others in the room.)
Mr. SPECTER. All right, we are ready to go on to the next series of
questions.
Mr. HERNDON. Do you feel all right, Mr. Ruby, at this time?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. We will now go to the first question of this next series,
Mr. Ruby, and I will ask you these questions. I want to make sure you
have a clear understanding of what they mean.
“Were you in the Dallas Police Department jail basement at the time
Lieutenant Pierce’s car drove out of the basement?”
Now, I see you are hesitating on that—I can rephrase it if you so like?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, no.
Mr. HERNDON. Let me go over it again, to make sure the question will be
clear to you.
“Were you in the Dallas Police Department jail at the time Lieutenant
Pierce’s car drove out of the basement?”
Mr. RUBY. If I can explain it—if I can elaborate on it, it will be easy
to answer.
Mr. SPECTER. Go ahead now, if it’s all right with your counsel, so we
can focus in on what concerns you.
Mr. HERNDON. Perhaps I might want to ask that other question first and
he would find he might not have as much of a problem if I asked it
first.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, I prefer to stay with what we have now. I think we
can. If it’s all right to have him explain it, if it’s all right with
his attorney, I’d rather stay with that.
Mr. RUBY. I’ve already told it to the Warren Commission?
Mr. TONAHILL. Well, go ahead.
Mr. RUBY. As I left the Western Union, I walked toward the ramp, and as
I walked down, Lieutenant Pierce’s car was parked already on the curb,
partly on the curb and partly some of it was on the ramp, and some
officer was talking to him, so consequently—I don’t know how to answer
that—whether I was in the basement—when his car had driven out?
Mr. SPECTER. Did you walk by his car?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. At the same time it was parked there?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. So that the officer did not see you——
Mr. RUBY. That’s correct.
Mr. SPECTER (continuing). Because the car was parked there?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; and his back was turned to me.
Mr. SPECTER. To state it differently, did the presence of the
automobile and the fact that he was talking to Lieutenant Pierce
obscure the vision of the officer who was on duty guarding that
entrance or exit?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; and I walked down because I didn’t know they were
guarding it—that there was anything going on there, you know?
Mr. HERNDON. Well, with that question, I can see his area of conflict
here.
Mr. TONAHILL. What you want to know is was he in the basement, but he
was out on the sidewalk. I think that’s a straight question.
Mr. ALEXANDER. “Were you in the basement or were you on the sidewalk
when Lieutenant Pierce’s car came out?” How about that?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes, I will revise that one question and break it down.
Mr. TONAHILL. Yes, that’s a very good question.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, will this question create any problem
for you? “Were you on the sidewalk at the time Lieutenant Pierce’s
car”—I had “drove out,” but was he driving out or was he parked there?
Mr. RUBY. When I noticed him he was already—he was stationary. He was
parked. He had stalled there or something.
Mr. SPECTER. “Were you on the sidewalk at the time Lieutenant Pierce’s
car stopped in front of the guard at the exit?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes, yes. Why do you say “stopped at the exit?”
Mr. TONAHILL. At the ramp exit.
Mr. HERNDON. “The ramp exit”—that makes it specific.
Mr. Ruby, your question will then be, “Were you on the sidewalk at the
time Lieutenant Pierce’s car stopped on the ramp exit?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Or, would you prefer “at the ramp exit?”
Mr. RUBY. That’s okay.
Mr. HERNDON. Let’s leave it “on the ramp exit.”
Another question I will ask, “Did you enter the jail by walking through
an alleyway?”
Mr. RUBY. What do you call an alleyway—a ramp?
Mr. TONAHILL. It’s a ramp, it isn’t an alley. It goes under the
building and comes out.
Mr. SPECTER. That’s all right, we’ll stand on that.
Mr. HERNDON. You will stand on that question, Mr. Specter?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. In other words, you can answer that as you want to?
Mr. TONAHILL. Now, if he says “No”——
Mr. ALEXANDER. It isn’t an alley, now, it’s a ramp.
Mr. SPECTER. Let me specify here—is there another entrance to the jail
that you have to go through an alleyway?
Mr. RUBY. There’s another—the Commerce Street entrance, and there’s two
entrances, and there’s ways of coming through, I imagine, from the——
Mr. TONAHILL. But it’s a driveway, is what it is, going down.
Mr. ALEXANDER. There’s nothing in the sense that you’re thinking of—you
could come from the building out where you could go down the ramp on
either side.
Mr. TONAHILL. It’s all under the building, not the ramp.
Mr. FOWLER. Actually, I think what he is thinking of is that there is
an alley too.
Mr. ALEXANDER. It wouldn’t be accessible.
Mr. FOWLER. It would make it very difficult to get down into the
basement from the alley.
Mr. ALEXANDER. All right, if Jack knows we’re talking about “alley,”
as long as you distinguish between the alley and the ramp, so he can
answer your question.
Mr. TONAHILL. He has always referred to it as a ramp.
Mr. RUBY. That’s a ramp.
Mr. SPECTER. By “alley,” we do not mean the ramp. We mean the entrance
into the building.
Mr. TONAHILL. Now, you’ve got him squared away.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine. We want you to understand the question exactly.
Mr. HERNDON. The question will stand as is.
Mr. TONAHILL. Why don’t you read the question?
Mr. HERNDON. Just leave the question as it is?
Mr. SPECTER. Leave it as it is.
Mr. HERNDON. The next question I’m going to ask, or one of the
questions I will ask will be, “Did you walk past the guard at the time
Lieutenant Pierce’s car was parked on the exit?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. You said it was parked?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. I think I’ll put it “on the ramp exit” so it’s perfectly
clear, and I will repeat the question.
The question again, “Did you walk past the guard at the time Lieutenant
Pierce’s car was parked on the ramp exit?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, the other questions here, “Did you talk with any
Dallas police officers on Sunday, November 24, prior to shooting
Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Other questions I intend to ask on this next series, Mr.
Ruby are: “Did you previously live in Chicago?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Are your parents alive?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. This next question, and you don’t have to answer it now.
You can answer it on the test. “Did you ever make a false insurance
claim?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. You are a man in business and you would probably have
insurance on perhaps your car, your personal life and your business?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. I just wondered if you ever made a false insurance claim?
Mr. RUBY. No—I see what you mean—No, I have it on an automobile.
Mr. HERNDON. I put this question in here—I’m not sure, actually, but
“Do you still operate the Carousel Club?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. You don’t?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. All right. The questions will be: “Do you still operate
the Carousel Club? Were you on the sidewalk at the time Lieutenant
Pierce’s car stopped on the ramp exit? Did you previously live in
Chicago? Did you enter the jail by walking through an alleyway? Are
your parents alive? Did you walk past the guard at the time Lieutenant
Pierce’s car was parked on the ramp exit? Did you ever make a false
insurance claim? Did you talk with any Dallas police officers on
Sunday, November 24, prior to the shooting of Oswald?”
Do you understand all those questions and can you answer them clearly
and simply “Yes” or “No”?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Apparently this is series 5?
Mr. SPECTER. We called the last series, series 3a.
Mr. HERNDON. We will call this series 4, according to my records. Is
that in sequence, Mr. Specter?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; I believe it is.
Mr. HERNDON. I will proceed shortly then, gentlemen.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander have now left the room.
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, do you want to put both of your feet on the
floor for me, sir, and look straight ahead at the wall, and relax until
I get the instrument adjusted.
(Reporter’s note: 4:35 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. All right, I will now put some pressure on the arm cuff,
and I will tell you when I am going to start asking you questions, Mr.
Ruby.
We will now begin.
(Reporter’s note: 4:36 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. “Do you still operate the Carousel Club?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Were you on the sidewalk at the time Lieutenant Pierce’s
car stopped on the ramp exit?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you previously live in Chicago?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. Try to sit still, if you can.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you enter the jail by walking through an alleyway?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Are your parents alive?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you walk past the guard at the time Lieutenant
Pierce’s car was parked on the ramp exit?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever make a false insurance claim?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you talk with any Dallas police officers on Sunday,
November 24, prior to the shooting of Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. That series is over. If you will sit still for a moment,
Mr. Ruby. I will now release the pressure from your arms.
Mr. RUBY. Am I acting a little nervous?
Mr. HERNDON. A little, but I think you’re getting a little bit tired.
That’s quite all right. I notice a little motion, but I will certainly
take that into consideration when I evaluate and interpret these charts.
(Reporter’s note: 4:40 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. Is there any area of doubt at all in your mind about that
question where you were on the sidewalk at the time Lieutenant Pierce’s
car stopped at the ramp exit?
Mr. RUBY. I said I was on the sidewalk—I walked past.
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; did that question trouble you then?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. You were on the sidewalk?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. I just wanted to clarify that. When I asked you, “Are your
parents alive?”, Mr. Ruby, have they been deceased for some time?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Did that question bother you or trouble you at all?
Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t know—I guess I’m nervous now—I don’t know just
why I said that.
Mr. HERNDON. I have no further questions in that series.
Mr. RUBY. Aren’t you going to ask me whether I knew anything as to
whether or not he was going to come down, or anything like that?
Mr. HERNDON. We will have to prepare some more questions.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill
are now back in the room, and we are going to take a brief recess.
Mr. HERNDON. You’ve done very well thus far, Mr. Ruby, as far as
cooperating on the examination.
Mr. RUBY. OK. What happens now?
Mr. HERNDON. We’re going to take a break and give you a little rest.
Now, if you will just lean forward and raise your arms, I will take
this equipment off of you.
Mr. RUBY. I’m not hungry, jailer.
Mr. HOLMAN. Do you want to go lie down?
Mr. RUBY. We only have a 20-minute break. That’s all.
Mr. HERNDON. Might I suggest to the jailer that you might like to sit
at another chair and change your position?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
(Reporter’s note: 4:45 p.m.)
(The proceedings were in recess at this time from 4:45 p.m. to 6:25
p.m.)
Mr. SPECTER. May the record now show that it is 6:25 p.m. and that we
have adjourned for a period of 1 hour and 40 minutes, during which time
Mr. Ruby has had an opportunity to rest. Is that correct, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby has just asked me about the presence of reporters
downstairs, and would you get this in the record. Miss Oliver. Would
you repeat what you just said to me, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Are you going to make any announcement to them?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; and you asked me to speak freely about this matter?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. My view is that we should, in view of the circumstances,
as I have been told—there are a large number of reporters downstairs,
and I’ve discussed this with Mr. Fowler and Mr. Tonahill, and it’s our
joint view that there should be an announcement made that you have
requested a polygraph examination and that we have conducted one under
the auspices of the President’s Commission through the cooperation of
the Federal Bureau of Investigation, that there has been extensive
examination and the results, of course, cannot yet be known at this
date, but they are to be taken to Washington and studied for future
action by the Commission.
Mr. RUBY. Let’s make it clear that Mr. Tonahill don’t represent me.
Joe, let’s have that understanding?
Mr. TONAHILL. Clayton is going to make whatever announcement is made
for you, Jack.
Mr. RUBY. Joe, let’s have that understanding, will you please, Joe?
Mr. FOWLER. Jack, we’ll have no difficulty with that, don’t worry about
that.
Mr. SPECTER. The substance of what I just said was discussed by me with
Mr. Fowler and it is our thought that that would be an appropriate
statement to make at this particular time. That’s about as far as we
can go. Do you concur in the advisability of that?
Mr. RUBY. Now, with reference to hedging on questions and so on, don’t
you think some comment should be made that I wasn’t reluctant in
answering any of the questions that were put to me?
Mr. SPECTER. I think that would be a fair comment to make, if you want
that statement made?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I think so.
Mr. ALEXANDER. That there was cooperation. That he was cooperative.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; that he was cooperative.
Mr. RUBY. On all questions on anything and everything pertaining to
anything.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, in view of your interest in that disclosure, I
think that would be appropriate to be made.
Mr. ALEXANDER. That without reservation, he cooperated fully.
Mr. RUBY. I wanted to be more specific, that I wanted to be asked.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, I said that initially. In other words, that it is at
your request that we had conducted this, so that it would be clear that
you took the lead in initiating this examination, which is the fact,
and we will state the fact or give you the credit in that direction,
just as it is the fact.
Mr. RUBY. But the point I wanted to bring out was that I wanted
to specify that I also wanted to be asked any and all questions,
regardless of what might be subversive or whatever thoughts might be in
your mind.
Bill, I think you can give these people certain questions and more
potent ones than they know, because you probably know a lot of things
that you have in your own mind that you’d like to have answered too?
Mr. FOWLER. Well, Jack, let me say this for your purpose and for the
purpose of the Warren Commission. This is not a trial and really, Mr.
Alexander is here as an attorney just like I am. He’s representing the
State just as Mr. Tonahill and I are representing you.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, I can’t really think of anything that I’d like to
ask.
Mr. RUBY. Well, let me get this clear. I notice that the pictures
brought out the fact that there are two sets of private boxes, close
together in the post office. Did you gentlemen know this? Which is
quite an insinuation.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, let’s ask the question, “Did you meet Oswald at
the post office at any time, as far as you know, until the next day?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes—and also they had a statement in there that I used the
box for purpose of mail orders and to do business with Mexico and Cuba.
That’s incorrect because I never did business with Mexico and Cuba.
Now, these are things that you gentlemen don’t want to ask me, but Mr.
Alexander would know what to tell you about that.
Mr. ALEXANDER. There is one question that ought to be asked.
Mr. SPECTER. I want that, Bill.
Mr. ALEXANDER. “Did any Cuban or foreign influence cause you to do any
act?”
Mr. RUBY. Very good—very good.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Because there has been some question about maybe Jack
was motivated from Cuba and we ought to eliminate that and ask him a
question to give him a chance to eliminate it.
Mr. RUBY. Also, I want to get the gun situation straightened out. You
know what I’m talking about—the Ray Brantley call.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. And the trip down to Cuba—I’m getting things confused now.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Let’s let him write that.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, we have conferred with all parties here on the
substance of the questions to be asked. Naturally, we have limitations
in time and we can only ask them in a short series. We have conferred
with Mr. Fowler, we have conferred with Mr. Wade and with Mr. Alexander
here, and naturally also, the interest of the Commission is paramount,
and we are doing our very best not to interfere with the State criminal
proceedings. We do not wish to take sides at all nor to influence it
in any way. We want to accomplish the purpose of the Commission. Those
interests overlap to some extent because whenever we ask a Commission
question, it has collateral bearings on a great many things, but to
the extent that we can, we have conferred, as I say, with the defense
counsel and the representatives of the district attorney’s office in
arriving at the questions which have been asked, and I think we will
cover before this examination is concluded the important areas. Now, at
the end of it, if you feel that there is some other area that you would
like to have covered, we would be very willing to hear your request and
to accommodate you to the maximum extent possible consistent with the
policy of the Commission.
Mr. RUBY. Mr. Alexander knows certain questions that he has in his mind
that haven’t come out and I think I know what he’s thinking about.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, Mr. Alexander has talked to me about some questions
that I’m sure he would prefer on the record and we have taken those
into account in formulating our questions. Isn’t that so, Mr. Alexander?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes, sir. I think what Jack has in mind is that he wants
an opportunity to answer a question regarding any possible connection
with anything in Cuba. Also, he wants a question asked that will give
him an opportunity to explain that the gun which he asked Ray Brantley
to mail to McWillie in Las Vegas——
Mr. RUBY. Not to Vegas, to Cuba, and all I did was to receive a phone
call, and this was—I told this to the Warren Commission—and this was
during the time when we were very friendly together.
Mr. ALEXANDER. That was in 1958.
Mr. RUBY. All I did was relay the phone message to Ray Brantley, and he
said, “Oh, I know Mr. McWillie very well,” and following that I never
followed up or seen him. Now, this is incriminating for me because
all I did—like a tool—got myself involved by relating a message that
somebody else wanted. Now, this was during peacetime because he wanted
protection from the foreign element coming in.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack relayed the message that McWillie wanted a Smith &
Wesson or some kind of a .38.
Mr. RUBY. Yes. There wasn’t no money or anything in the deal. Ray
Brantley said, “Oh, I know McWillie. I’ve done business with him
constantly.” Following that—I never followed up on it a time, and
what he did—and this is incriminating against me very bad, but he
had the irony to do this—when I mentioned the fact that I did call
Ray Brantley, this man denied that I called him. That makes me a
liar to that extent, so I want that question put to me in reference
to Ray Brantley and all that and I want about my trip to Cuba and my
association with the underworld.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, the question of the gun with Ray Brantley was
covered in detail when the Chief Justice was here and we shall cover
that in the balance of the polygraph examination.
Mr. RUBY. I also had numerous phone calls, long-distance calls, all
over the country and that was with relationship only to my nightclub
that I had trouble with the union. There was no conspiracy, but you’ll
go into that.
Mr. SPECTER. You covered that also in your testimony before the
Commission.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; but that doesn’t prove anything.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Let me suggest one question there to ask him?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, sir.
Mr. ALEXANDER. “Did any telephone call you made have any connection,
however remote, with your shooting of Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. ALEXANDER. That will cover it.
Mr. TONAHILL. How about asking him if he didn’t tell the Warren
Commission the truth several weeks ago in answering every question they
asked him?
Mr. RUBY. I didn’t elaborate enough with them and we didn’t go into
it enough, because I was telling a complete story. Yes; I’ll answer
that—certainly I will.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine; that will be asked of you.
Mr. HERNDON. That will be somewhat all inclusive.
Mr. SPECTER. We’ll have that for the very next series.
Mr. ALEXANDER. “Did you have any telephone conversation which related
in any way with the shooting of Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. Also, ask me whether the phone calls were in reference to the
union trying to get somebody to help me with my club.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Let’s make another question about that. “Did any union
or underworld connection have anything to do with the shooting of
Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. Very good.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; I will add those in and cover them to the maximum
extent possible, and I add that reservation because there are a great
many additional questions to be asked which we have already mapped out.
Mr. HERNDON. Do you want me to proceed with the usual preliminaries?
Mr. RUBY. You don’t have to proceed with that. Why don’t you just call
them to me and I’ll answer them. You want to go through a formality—a
previous thing.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, he’s got to have a record.
Mr. HERNDON. I want to make sure you understand the question involved.
Mr. RUBY. I’m sure I do.
Mr. HERNDON. I feel in fairness to both of us, we have to do this.
Mr. RUBY. Believe me—believe me, you don’t have to go through that
formality, if you want to save yourself a lot of time, and I think
you’ll like that better.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, he has to have a written question that’s keyed to
this tape.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I follow that, but he doesn’t have to go through the
preliminary explaining to me this because I’ll answer anything you want
“off the hook.”
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, we appreciate your willingness to do that and
we’ll take you up on that to the fullest extent possible, but Mr.
Herndon has to do some preliminary questioning which is indispensable
to his evaluation.
Mr. RUBY. All right, get him to minimize it if he can.
Mr. SPECTER. He will bear that in mind and minimize it to the fullest
extent.
Mr. HERNDON. Are you ready?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Then, these gentlemen actually will not be aware of the
questions, is that all right with you, I mean—prior to the time they
leave? I believe we discussed that previously and I did want to mention
it, that it would be so important when the questions would be asked.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Not to me, Jack.
Mr. RUBY. I see—about your being aware of the question.
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Specter, you recall, previously—one of the reasons
I was going over all the questions before actually conducting the
examination was in order for these gentlemen that are in attendance to
be aware of what questions are going to be asked Mr. Ruby during the
actual polygraph examination. Now, if we dispense with that before we
go over these questions, if they leave the room, they do not know the
questions I’m going to ask him.
Mr. ALEXANDER. I don’t think Jack has any objection to us staying here
at this time, do you, Jack?
Mr. RUBY. No; I certainly don’t.
Mr. FOWLER. Well, of course, I still have the same objection, and
respectfully request again, Jack, that we’re not trying to hide
anything—don’t misunderstand me.
Mr. RUBY. Just a minute—let me tell you something. I want to straighten
up some things. Whether he leaves the room or not, Mr. Alexander is
going to know everything that went on here, so please concede to it.
Mr. FOWLER. Well, I’ll concede to this, that at sometime he will know,
but I’m saying this—that perhaps there might be something, Jack, that
might in some way be to your detriment if Mr. Alexander knew the answer
to the question at this time. Now, he may say “No,” but I still, as
your attorney and in trying to protect your rights, insist that it be
handled in this way, and I would certainly appreciate your cooperation
with me to that extent.
Mr. RUBY. The only reason I want Mr. Alexander here, I want him to know
my effectiveness when I answer the questions.
Mr. FOWLER. Jack, that’s very well, and I don’t think he has any doubt
that you’re trying to hide it and all of that.
Mr. SPECTER. Then, let us proceed as we have before, with Mr. Herndon
announcing the questions in advance but going through a minimum amount
of preliminaries so that he is satisfied that he can evaluate the
results.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And we will proceed on that basis.
Mr. RUBY. You can run through them a lot faster and I’ll grasp them.
Mr. HERNDON. All right; I will proceed in that manner and also with the
questions we have already set forth.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; and then we’ll supplement them to cover the
additional topics which have not yet been included.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, do you feel all right to continue
with this?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I am ready.
Mr. HERNDON. Very fine. I will hook this up and go over these questions
and I’ll just read them out to you and you just speak up if there is
one you want to rephrase.
Mr. RUBY. Go ahead.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you see the armored truck before you went to the
basement?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you enter the police department through a door at the
rear on the east side of the jail?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “After talking to Little Lynn, did you hear any
announcement that Oswald was about to be moved?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Before you left your apartment Sunday morning, did anyone
tell you the armored car was on the way to the police department?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Those are your main questions, and I will ask you some of
these other routine questions.
Mr. RUBY. All right; go ahead.
Mr. HERNDON. “Do you have any brothers?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Do you have any sisters?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Have you answered all questions truthfully?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, here’s a question I want to go over with you very
carefully. “Did you ever hit anyone with any kind of weapon?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. All right; I’ll give you an opportunity now to explain
that to me. This is for my purposes of the examination.
Mr. RUBY. Well, in running a—in my business, when you get somebody
with a—it’s a very exciting business. One particular night a man
pulled a knife on me and I took a pistol and hit him on the head in
that altercation, and sometimes you get fellows with real bad rough
reputations. They’re real toughs. There’s no question about it, and
being in my type of business for a livelihood, the only way you can—of
course, I do call the law enforcement officers. At that particular
moment, it’s my life or theirs, and some of these men are pretty
powerful physically, and I fought in every way possible, with my fists
and everything else—but to minimize the various troubles I had, where
there would be an altercation or something come up, I’d tell them to
leave, and of course, something would happen and they would go from
here—whatever it is. It happened a few times where I would pummel a few
of these men.
Mr. HERNDON. I understand, Mr. Ruby, but all of these incidents that
you recall are in connection with your operating this club?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; they are at the club. These boys are real bad boys and
they all have records, and they’re pretty tough guys. Will you agree
with something on that?
Mr. ALEXANDER. That’s right.
Mr. HERNDON. Then, on the actual test. I’m going to ask you this
question: “Other than what you’ve told me, did you ever hit anyone with
any kind of weapon?”
Mr. RUBY. I don’t follow—“Other than what you’ve told me?”
Mr. HERNDON. In other words, other than your being the owner of a
nightclub, which because of the type of customers you occasionally
have, you would have to use some force, perhaps hit a customer or hit
someone in your club?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Have you ever been involved in any other situation where
you actually struck at somebody with a weapon? “Weapon” here I’m
referring to as a gun, club, or knife or anything that would be other
than just a normal fist-fight.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that happened, but that was before I got in this
trouble. This man threatened to kill me and was going to go for his
gun, and I was nice enough to have him stay at my place and he was
causing a nuisance in the vicinity of the club, causing brawls and
all that and I tried to reprimand him, and a little boy of Italian
descent and very gracious, somehow he got very belligerent with me,
and I knew he had a car and he said, “I’m going to get my pistol,” and
there’s a funny reaction about that. Once they get you cowered to that
extent, then you’re doomed, and there’s a funny feeling, when I was
with him, that you have with them. So, I got my pistol and I cornered
him and I called him by his name and I called him a name, and I said,
“You’re going to kill me, you so-and-so?” Finally he said, “I was only
kidding, I was only kidding,” and there’s a certain reaction you have
and I can’t explain it. That’s the only time any crime of that sort has
ever happened outside of my business.
Mr. HERNDON. Outside of your business?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HERNDON. Then, if I asked you whether or not you told me you ever
hit anyone with any kind of weapon, unless something else comes up to
your mind, you would answer that “Yes”?
Mr. RUBY. Yes, like if I was a goon or something.
Mr. HERNDON. Yes, a union goon.
Mr. RUBY. A union goon. Right. I haven’t been a slugger or anything
like that.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, we can go along here Mr. Ruby, and I will hook
up the instrument.
(Reporter’s note: 6:43 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. Will you raise your arms, Mr. Ruby, please? Do you feel
comfortable?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, lean back. [Attached instruments to Mr. Ruby.]
Mr. RUBY. Have I been evading any of your questions?
Mr. HERNDON. You have been most cooperative—thus far no problems.
Mr. RUBY. But you can’t tell how I stand, can you?
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, I will want to take a considerable amount of
time to review these charts very thoroughly before I come to any
conclusion.
Mr. RUBY. How long would it take—how long will it take?
Mr. HERNDON. Well, I can’t answer that question with a definite answer.
It depends on what I may run into when I study these very carefully
back in Washington.
Mr. RUBY. Bill, will I still be around when the answers come back?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. Raise your right hand and give him your word.
Mr. ALEXANDER. That’s right.
Mr. RUBY. Chief, you heard him, did you not, Chief? [Addressing the
Chief Jailer Holman.] You and I should live so long.
Mr. HERNDON. Is that comfortable, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, I’m not going to ask the questions at this time, I’m
just going to readjust the instruments.
Mr. TONAHILL. Let’s go, Bill.
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill
have left the room.
Mr. HERNDON. Do you want to cough, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. You want me to?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes.
(Mr. Ruby coughed at this time.)
Mr. HERNDON. All right, are you about ready to begin with this one?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Once again, just repeating instructions, if you will
uncross your legs, sir, and put your feet flat on the floor and look
straight ahead and answer the questions truthfully “Yes” or “No.”
This will be series No. 5. I will let you know when the test will
begin. Is there a little pressure on the arm cuff?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, Mr. Ruby, look straight ahead. That’s fine. Now, just
look straight ahead and try not to move, and the test will begin.
(Reporter’s note: 6:45 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. “Is your last name Ruby?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you see the armored car before it entered the
basement?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Do you have any brothers?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you enter the police department through a door at the
rear on the east side of the jail?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Do you have any sisters?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “After talking to Little Lynn did you hear any
announcement that Oswald was about to be moved?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Other than what you’ve told me, did you ever hit anyone
with any kind of weapon?”
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know how to answer that.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, just sit still and relax, sir.
Mr. RUBY. Ask me that again—I got the answer.
Mr. HERNDON. “Other than what you’ve told me, did you ever hit anyone
with any kind of weapon?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Before you left your apartment Sunday morning, did anyone
tell you the armored car was on the way to the police department?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Have you answered all questions truthfully?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. All right, that test is over. Just sit still for a moment,
and I will now release the pressure on your arm. You can move you left
arm and relax.
(Reporter’s note: 6:50 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. I’m sorry if I gave you any problem on that question.
Mr. RUBY. Yes, because it threw me off again.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, we’ll just go over it again as a matter of
record. I asked you there, “Other than what you’ve told me, did you
ever hit anyone with any kind of weapon,” and you explained that at two
different times and that once it was in the club with some people and
customers, and another time it was outside the club, and when we bring
out other than those, was there any other time you hit anybody with a
weapon?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. You don’t recall any other time, is that correct, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Yes. I thought I said two of them—and I thought it meant with
my fists.
Mr. HERNDON. Well, I meant with a weapon, when you actually hit someone
with an implement in your hand.
Mr. RUBY. You thought I was feminine, didn’t you, Chief? Why did you
lock me up in that tank? [Addressing Chief Jailer Holman.]
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, when I asked you, “Do you have any sisters?” I
asked that in the plural—you have more than one sister?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. You have several sisters?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. How many sisters do you have?
Mr. RUBY. Four.
Mr. HERNDON. Did anything in particular come to your mind when I asked
you that question?
Mr. RUBY. No—not like that other question.
Mr. HERNDON. What question?
Mr. RUBY. The one about “Have you ever been married?”
Mr. HERNDON. Yes, I recall.
Mr. RUBY. Do I sound like a man with an unsound mind to you?
Mr. HERNDON. As I said before, Mr. Ruby, I’m not qualified to answer
that question.
Mr. RUBY. Oh—oh.
Mr. HERNDON. You have been cooperative as far as answering my questions
and proceeding with the examination.
(At this point Mr. Specter left the room and shortly thereafter Messrs.
Alexander and Tonahill returned to the room.)
Mr. HERNDON. We can proceed and move pretty fast as soon as Mr. Specter
comes back. Just sit and relax. Would you like me to take any of these
things off?
Mr. RUBY. No, no.
Mr. HERNDON. Are you comfortable?
Mr. RUBY. You’re not going to ask me any more questions? Do you want to
go through that stuff there?
Mr. HERNDON. I think I had better wait for Mr. Specter to be here. I
don’t want to proceed without him. Can I get you a drink of water?
Mr. RUBY. No. Can we talk about certain things?
Mr. HERNDON. I suggest you wait until Mr. Specter returns.
Mr. RUBY. Is there anything on your mind, Bill, off the record?
Mr. ALEXANDER. I think with that Cuban thing cleared up and with an
opportunity to answer a question on that——
Mr. RUBY. How about the underworld?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Well, he’s going to ask you that, if he hasn’t already.
Mr. RUBY. There were a lot of phone calls, as you recall. I’m sure you
know that and there should be a specific way to ask me—“What was the
purpose of all those calls?”
Mr. ALEXANDER. Well, you see, that wouldn’t record on the machine. The
question would have to be, “Did any telephone calls have any connection
with the shooting of Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes, but still, when you have so many calls, you still want
to know why you called people.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Well, all your telephone calls were either business or
personal, weren’t they?
Mr. RUBY. That’s right, and the other question you asked about
Oswald—you know?
Mr. ALEXANDER. “Did any of these calls have any connection with the
shooting of Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. No. How about my trip to Havana?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Has that been asked yet?
Mr. HERNDON. That hasn’t been asked.
Mr. ALEXANDER. “Did your trip to Havana have any connection with the
shooting of Oswald, however remote?”
Mr. RUBY. Have I ever had any business dealings—I want them to know my
relationship.
Mr. ALEXANDER. “Have you ever had any political or business connection
with Castro or Cuba?”
Mr. RUBY. That’s a good question. Or, why did I make that trip to
Havana?
Mr. ALEXANDER. “Was your trip to Havana personal or business?” I think
that’s overlapping that Cuban deal.
Mr. RUBY. Yes, but here’s the thing. When people ask me—they say,
“Jack, you went to Havana, Cuba” and I say, “I went there for a
vacation.” They say, “How long did you stay?” When I say, “8 days,”—you
somehow have got to answer specifically that it was a vacation, because
a person can be very evasive and say he went for a vacation but yet had
other dealings there.
Mr. ALEXANDER. “Was your trip to Havana purely for vacation and
pleasure?”
Mr. RUBY. That’s right.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, my memory is just vague—you’ve never been to
Mexico?
Mr. RUBY. I never have been to Mexico, but Bill, you know a lot of
questions to ask me, I’m sure you know, that I’d like to get cleared up.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Well, you never have been interested in politics, as far
as I know?
Mr. RUBY. What I was doing down at that News Building—what was I doing
down there Friday—I want that question asked.
(At this point Mr. Specter returned to the room.)
Mr. TONAHILL. That’s kind of a belabored question, Jack?
Mr. RUBY. Joe, you don’t believe that.
COURT REPORTER. I want to be sure I heard Mr. Ruby’s answer to Mr.
Alexander’s question a little while ago?
Mr. RUBY. You want to hear that again?
COURT REPORTER. I didn’t quite hear your answer to Mr. Alexander’s
question, “Did any of these calls have any connection with the shooting
of Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. Oh, you’re taking down what I’m saying? I didn’t know you
were taking that down.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; we’re taking everything down.
Mr. RUBY. Oh—well, give me the question again.
COURT REPORTER. This was when Mr. Alexander asked you, “Did any of
these calls have any connection with the shooting of Oswald?” and what
was your answer to that question?
Mr. RUBY. No.
COURT REPORTER. Thank you.
Mr. RUBY. Are you putting down the questions I’ve been asking myself?
COURT REPORTER. Yes; everything you’ve been saying.
Mr. RUBY. Voluntarily—correct?
COURT REPORTER. Oh, yes. Just like you say them.
Mr. RUBY. Okay.
Mr. SPECTER. We are putting it down in the record, Mr. Ruby, just like
you’re saying it.
Odell, can you bring me up-to-date, I’ve been out of the room.
COURT REPORTER. Mr. Alexander has been asking him certain questions
that might be asked about——
Mr. RUBY. About that Havana, Cuba trip.
COURT REPORTER. And had he been to Mexico, and had he been in politics,
and Mr. Alexander said to his knowledge he had not been interested
in politics, and the purpose of his trip to Cuba, whether it was for
business or pleasure, and I believe that is what was covered.
Mr. RUBY. The most important question—you haven’t asked me yet—why did
I shoot Oswald?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, they can’t ask that kind of question for this
machine. They can only ask you—was it for a certain purpose. It has to
be a “Yes” or “No” answer.
Mr. RUBY. The point is—if I was carried away emotionally, and because
I felt that, it sounds so unbelievable. Why shouldn’t I be asked a
question—why—what motivated me to do it?
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, answer now the question, “Why did you shoot
Oswald?” and then we will turn that around into a question to ask you
for a “Yes” or “No” answer.
Mr. RUBY. At the particular moment, after watching television all that——
Mr. FOWLER. Jack, let me interject right now, again, as your attorney—I
advise you not to answer this question.
Mr. RUBY. Clayton, I’m sorry, I’ve got to answer it. I’ve got to,
because, believe me, it means an awful lot to me. I didn’t want—I felt
so carried away—that at that particular time of the great tragedy, I
felt somehow in my little bit of a way I could save Mrs. Kennedy the
ordeal of coming back for trial here.
Mr. SPECTER. All right, fine, Mr. Ruby. That’s the same answer to
that general question that you gave when the Commission heard your
testimony, and we shall phrase that in an appropriate question for the
polygraph examination. Now, will you proceed, Mr. Herndon, with our
next series, please?
Mr. HERNDON. Do you want me to rehearse the ones that are prepared?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; just our prepared series, and we will take these in a
sequence and we will cover everything else later.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, I’ll go over these for you again, Mr. Ruby, so
that you understand the intent of the question and what it means.
“Did you get a Wall Street Journal at Southwestern Drug Store during
the week before the assassination?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Was the Wall Street Journal addressed to a Mr. Bradshaw?”
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know.
Mr. HERNDON. Well, that one, we’re going to have to rephrase. “Do you
know if the Wall Street Journal was addressed to Mr. Bradshaw?”
Mr. RUBY. I haven’t read a Wall Street Journal in the longest time—in
years, probably.
Mr. HERNDON. Do you wish to keep that question in, Mr. Specter?
Mr. TONAHILL. Jack, was there a man named Bradshaw, your landlord?
Mr. RUBY. No; Houston Nichols was my landlord, but I know a Bradshaw.
He used to be in the pinball game machine business.
Mr. TONAHILL. A jukebox man?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; everybody knows him.
Mr. SPECTER. What is his first name, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know, but he owned a liquor store and he’s a pretty
successful businessman.
Mr. SPECTER. Was a Wall Street Journal addressed to Mr. J. E. Bradshaw,
dated November 16, 1963, in your car at any time?
Mr. RUBY. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever heard of any such Wall Street Journal having
been found in your car?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. SPECTER. We will rephrase that question too. Let’s try this: “Do
you have any knowledge of a Wall Street Journal addressed to Mr. J. E.
Bradshaw being found in your car?”
Mr. RUBY. No; did they find one somewhere in my car?
Mr. SPECTER. Proceed, please, Mr. Herndon.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you or any of your friends telephone the FBI in
Dallas between 2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning?”
Mr. RUBY. How could I—I was incarcerated? Oh, Sunday morning?
Mr. HERNDON. Some people might refer to that as Saturday night.
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know. I know I went to bed about 1:30, so I can’t
answer that.
Mr. SPECTER. Make that “To your knowledge”——
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. SPECTER. “To your knowledge, did any of your friends”—do so and so?
Mr. HERNDON. I think in that way you should be able to answer “Yes” or
“No”.
“Did you or any of your friends telephone the sheriff’s office between
2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Again, I can rephrase that—“To your knowledge—” if you
wish?
Mr. SPECTER. Make it—“Did you or any of your friends, to your
knowledge, phone the sheriff’s office?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. And then, some of these questions I will ask you again
here, such as, “Did you previously live in San Francisco?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. I understand you did.
I’m going to ask you this question, which will help me, and that is,
“In your dealings, Mr. Ruby, as a nightclub operator, at any time have
you ever overcharged a customer?” I assume there are some times when
you probably are at the cash register, is that correct, and you are
handling the transaction of money with customers or with the bills.
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. You understand what I mean by “overcharge”?
Mr. RUBY. We have a very lucrative business in champagne there,
the kind of business that—Bill Alexander knows about it—they get
merchandise received for what they get. It’s quite lucrative and that’s
one way you can survive, I guess.
Mr. HERNDON. I’ll just simply ask the question, “Did you ever
overcharge a customer?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. I’ll probably ask you questions for your identity, like
“Is your name Jack Ruby?” at the beginning of these series.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Let’s see, gentlemen, I believe we’ve gone over all these
questions, and I’m going to ask you also as a matter of record on the
test—are you tired?
Mr. RUBY. No; as a matter of fact, I’m feeling my best right now.
Mr. HERNDON. You feel all right.
Those are the questions we’re going to ask.
(Reporter’s note: 7:05 p.m.)
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill
left the room.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, I’ll get this machine to going again,
and we will get started on series No. 6. Mr. Ruby, could you sit up a
little straighter? When you slouch over like that, I’m not getting the
tracing I want on the reading. Now, that’s much better. [At this time
Mr. Herndon snapped his fingers.] Look straight ahead again, Mr. Ruby.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. HERNDON. I will let you know when I’m going to start the test, and
if you will answer the questions again, simply and truthfully, “Yes” or
“No.”
If I come to any one of these that you feel like you are not sure how
to answer it and you don’t want to answer it “Yes” or “No,” once again
just refrain from talking and we will discuss the question at the end
of the series.
Mr. RUBY. All right. I’ll remain silent, huh?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; remain silent.
(Reporter’s note: 7:08 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. The test will now begin.
“Is your name Jack Ruby?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you get a Wall Street Journal at the Southwestern
Drug Store during the week before the assassination?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Are you tired?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Do you have any knowledge of a Wall Street Journal
addressed to Mr. J. E. Bradshaw?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you previously live in San Francisco?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “To your knowledge, did any of your friends or did you
telephone the FBI in Dallas between 2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever overcharge a customer?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you or any of your friends to your knowledge
telephone the sheriff’s office between 2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning.”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. I think that series is over and I will release the
pressure.
(Reporter’s note: 7:10 p.m.)
Mr. RUBY. Are they that important—those questions? I know more
important ones than that. Of course—I’m kidding.
Mr. HERNDON. We have some more coming.
Mr. Ruby, has a customer by any chance ever claimed that they were
overcharged at your place? Have you ever had any problems along that
line?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes—we have problems with waitresses and big bills.
Mr. HERNDON. Other than what you told us about the Wall Street Journal,
is there anything else that came to your mind with regard to this Wall
Street Journal question?
Mr. RUBY. As a matter of fact, the question you asked me is so foreign
to me——
Mr. HERNDON. In other words, you are completely unaware of the Wall
Street Journal situation?
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know how it ever came to be there.
Mr. HERNDON. That completes that series.
(Reporter’s note: 7:12 p.m.)
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander
returned to the room.
Would you now proceed, Mr. Herndon, to the next series, and we’ll go
through those as rapidly as you can.
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby. I’ll just read these right down the line, and
if you have any question, then interrupt me. Otherwise, I’ll just keep
going.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. HERNDON. “Do you intend to answer the questions truthfully?”
Mr. RUBY (no response).
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on
Friday, November 22, 1963, before you went to the synagogue?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Do you attend the synagogue regularly?”
Mr. RUBY. No—not of late, because of my businesses and my sister was
ill and I had to help at both places—I had to run both places.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, If you feel it is proper, you can answer that
question.
Mr. RUBY. This was a special occasion, this Friday night—I wanted to go
there because of this tragedy happening.
Mr. HERNDON. Very fine. The way I mean that question is—do you attend
the synagogue regularly and at every usual service?
Mr. RUBY. Well, yes—on high holidays and when my father passed away, I
went there consistently for 11 months; morning and evening.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you go to the synagogue that Friday night?” Now,
“that Friday night”—you know the night we’re talking about?
Mr. RUBY. Friday night.
Mr. HERNDON. The night of the assassination?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask you this question—it’s simple and short:
“Do you pray?”
Mr. RUBY. Not now, because it’s hopeless. I did.
Mr. HERNDON. You can answer it “Yes” or “No” when the question comes.
Mr. RUBY. Pardon me—I take it back—I do pray. I say certain prayers.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you see Oswald in the Dallas jail on a Friday night?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Were you at one time employed by a union?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you have a gun with you when you went to the Friday
midnight press conference?”
Mr. RUBY. Let’s have that again?
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you have a gun with you when you went to the Friday
midnight press conference?”
Mr. RUBY. You mean at the police station? No.
Mr. HERNDON. Just so we have it clear—what we mean here is——
Mr. RUBY. You mean in my possession?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you insert in there—“at the jail”—“did you have a
gun with you when you went to the Friday midnight press conference at
the jail?”
Mr. ALEXANDER. If you put it in his car or on his person, I think he
can answer it better.
Mr. RUBY. No—because I recall when I first said I did, and then I
changed it later.
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, so you understand what I mean when I say “Did
you have a gun with you?” I mean on the person.
I’m going to ask this question which one of the gentlemen recommended,
and it is, “Have you told the Warren Commission the entire truth?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes; and I may have left out certain things because I was a
little—I wasn’t as calm as I am now, so in reality, certain things I
could have said, I’m sure in my frame of mind now I would be able to do
it better, but I told the truth at the time.
Mr. SPECTER. Perhaps we could rephrase it and say, “Is everything you
told the Warren Commission the truth?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I can say that.
Mr. HERNDON. The question will be then, as Mr. Specter put it, “Is
everything you told the Warren Commission the entire truth?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HERNDON. Any questions, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Fine; I will proceed.
(Reporter’s note: 7:15 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. For the record, this will be series No. 7.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill have now left the room.
Mr. RUBY. I wonder why Mr. Tonahill is here. He’s not my attorney.
Clayton, is Joe Tonahill representing me?
Mr. FOWLER. Well Jack, in some capacity, I think he is still involved.
Mr. RUBY. Well—yes and no.
Mr. FOWLER. But please don’t worry about it at this time. He is here.
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, do you mind if I tighten the rubber tube on your
chest just a slight bit more?
Mr. RUBY. Make it as tight as you want it. I want to get it right.
Mr. HERNDON. No; I don’t want to make it too tight, I want to make it
comfortable.
Mr. RUBY (addressing Mr. Holman). Are you coming to work tomorrow? I
don’t know where you’ll find me. How about you, chief?
Mr. HOLMAN. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, now just breathe naturally and sit up a little
bit straighter. That’s good. That’s fine, Mr. Ruby.
(Reporter’s note: 7:15 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. Just relax. [At this point Mr. Herndon snapped his fingers
twice.]
I will tell you once again when the test will begin. Answer the
questions truthfully “Yes” or “No.” Try to sit perfectly relaxed and
try not to move. Look straight ahead, if you will, Mr. Ruby.
Did you just have a gas pain or something trouble you?
Mr. RUBY. No; nothing.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, relax. We will now begin.
(Reporter’s note: 7:18 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. “Do you intend to answer these questions truthfully?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes; I do.”
Mr. HERNDON. Just answer the questions “Yes” or “No,” please.
Mr. RUBY. OK.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on
Friday, November 22, 1963, before you went to the synagogue?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Do you attend the synagogue regularly?”
Mr. RUBY. How can I answer that one?
Mr. HERNDON. Just relax. “Did you go to the synagogue that Friday
night?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes”.
Mr. HERNDON. “Do you pray?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes”.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you see Oswald in the Dallas jail on Friday night?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes”.
Mr. HERNDON. “Were you at one time employed by a union?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes”.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you have a gun with you when you went to the Friday
midnight press conference at the jail?”
Mr. RUBY. “No”.
Mr. HERNDON. “Is everything you told the Warren Commission the entire
truth?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes”.
Mr. HERNDON. That series is over. Just sit still for a moment, Mr.
Ruby, and I will release the pressure on your arm, and you may now move.
(Reporter’s note: 7:21 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. At the beginning of that series, Mr. Ruby, you displayed
a little nervousness and a little tension. Perhaps it was the question
I asked with regard to the synagogue. Did that upset you in any way?
Mr. RUBY. Because—you’re ashamed to admit you haven’t been going
regular—yet, you don’t want to come out with a blunt answer “No”—it
makes you sort of an atheist, and I didn’t want to answer it that way,
but I do go to the high holidays, but going regular and going to the
high holidays are two different ways of going. People that go regular
go every Friday night and pretty regular during the week, but my hours
were entirely different. I mean—I’m trying to explain that to you.
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; that’s what I want you to do. Go ahead, sir.
Mr. RUBY. I could say “Yes” and I would be lying to you saying “Yes”.
Anyway, the last couple of years—the last year and a half or 2 years
have been very tough to me businesswise and I’ve stayed pretty close,
outside the high holidays.
Mr. HERNDON. Did that question disturb you in any regard when I asked,
“Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on Friday——”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Before you went to the synagogue?” You did show some
reaction, will you tell me that, sir?
Mr. RUBY. Because I knew that some man in the trial said I did come
down there, and naturally, that came flashing into my mind.
Mr. HERNDON. Was this some man at the trial?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Did he testify?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; Mr. John Rutledge. He said I was down there earlier,
when I wasn’t—and the association of this man came to my mind. Can you
ask me that over again?
Mr. HERNDON. I don’t think I have to, Mr. Ruby. I wanted to get your
explanation of why. Did you feel a reaction to that question?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; because it’s like the Wall Street Journal question—when
you asked me that. I get nervous too. When they said they found it in
my car, there must be some reason that it was found in my car, when I
know I never did see this particular paper.
Mr. HERNDON. Well, at this trial Mr. John Rutledge’s testimony
conflicted with what you had said, is that correct?
Mr. SPECTER. Not what he said, Mr. Herndon. He didn’t testify.
Mr. RUBY. He testified emphatically—it looked like I was trying to find
out who this Oswald was, and if I went down there more than once.
Mr. HERNDON. I see. You did feel the reaction on that question?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. I think we can proceed on to the next series.
Mr. SPECTER. We’re now at series 8, correct?
Mr. HERNDON. The next series will be 8, correct.
(Reporter’s note: 7:23 p.m.)
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill
have returned now.
Mr. HERNDON. Are you all right, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. We shall continue, and these are questions we want to put
to you for this next series.
“Have you ever knowingly attended any meetings of the Communist Party
or any other group that advocates violent overthrow of the Government?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, is that question too long for you to answer it
clearly?
Mr. RUBY. No; no.
Mr. HERNDON. Of course, there are two parts there—the Communist
Party or any other group that advocates the violent overthrow of the
Government—do you understand the question?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; very much so.
Mr. HERNDON. And then I will ask you, “Did you legally change your last
name?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to ask you again at the beginning of the test,
“Is your last name Ruby?” I’m going to ask, “Do you know if any of
your immediate family or any close friend is a member of the Communist
Party?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Were you in the Army Air Corps?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Do you know if any of your immediate family or any close
friend is a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of
the Government?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Let’s rephrase those, Mr. Herndon. “To your knowledge, is
any member of your family——”
Mr. HERNDON. Rather than “Do you know——”.
Mr. RUBY. Why don’t you put it stronger—ask me the question without—to
my knowledge—the answer is “No”. When you say—to my knowledge—you leave
an opening there.
Mr. TONAHILL. Say—“Is any member of your family a member”——
Mr. SPECTER. We will take that and make it categorical—without the
prefix.
Mr. RUBY. In other words, I don’t want any opening for any doubt that
there is.
Mr. HERNDON. Both those questions I started, “Do you know,”—I’m going
to just start the question—“Is any member of your family”—et cetera.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Is that all right with you, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. No, no; emphatically.
Mr. HERNDON. Here again, “Is any close friend or any member of your
immediate family,”—I will have to change this one. I shall ask the
question this way, unless you have reason to object. “Do you know if
any close friend or any member of your immediate family ever attended a
meeting of the Communist Party?”
Mr. RUBY. In other words, if I say I know they did——
Mr. HERNDON. Do you have knowledge, in other words?
Mr. RUBY. No; not knowledge—you’re putting me in a spot there. Repeat
it.
Mr. HERNDON. Let me ask this question the way I composed it originally.
“Do you know if any close friend or any member of your immediate family
ever attended a meeting of the Communist Party?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes. Meaning—I know they didn’t.
Mr. HERNDON. That’s a very valid point.
Mr. SPECTER. Let’s rephrase it then—“Did any member of your immediate
family or any close friend ever attend a meeting of the Communist
Party?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. How do you want that, Mr. Specter?
Mr. SPECTER. “Did any member of your immediate family or any close
friend ever attend a meeting of the Communist Party?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. I just had it slightly different. “Did any close friend
or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of the
Communist Party?” Is that all right?
Mr. SPECTER. That phraseology is satisfactory.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, there’s one other question here and this one is a
little bit long, and we might want to discuss this question so Mr.
Ruby will understand it perfectly. “Do you know if any close friend or
any member of your immediate family has ever attended a meeting of any
group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I know that they didn’t.
Mr. SPECTER. Let’s rephrase the question, leaving out the “Do you
know”——
Mr. HERNDON. So that it will now be, “Did any—et cetera.”
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, the question will read: “Did any close friend
or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of any
group that advocates the violent overthrow of the Government?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Those are the questions, unless Mr. Ruby has some question
on them.
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander
are now out of the room and we may proceed with this series.
(Reporter’s note. 7:28 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. For the record, this is series No. 8.
All right, Mr. Ruby, I shall now put some pressure in the arm cuff
and if you will look straight ahead, sir, and answer the questions
truthfully “Yes” or “No,” and I will tell you when I am going to begin
asking questions.
The test will now begin.
“Is your last name Ruby?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Have you ever knowingly attended any meetings of the
Communist Party or any other group that advocates violent overthrow of
the Government?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you legally change your last name?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Is any member of your immediate family or any close
friend, a member of the Communist Party?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Were you in the Army Air Corps?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Is any member of your immediate family or any close
friend a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of
the Government?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. Look straight ahead, please, sir. “Did any close friend
or any member of your immediate family ever attend a meeting of the
Communist Party?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate
family ever attend a meeting of any group that advocates the violent
overthrow of the Government?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. That series is over. If you will relax, Mr. Ruby, I will
release the pressure on your arm.
(Reporter’s note: 7:33 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. I know these questions were a little long, but I feel that
you got the intent of them all right.
Mr. RUBY. Sure; I did.
Mr. HERNDON. That will complete series No. 8.
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that we are now going to take a very
short recess, and resume in just a few moments.
Mr. HERNDON. Would you like to take this off just a minute and stand up
a little bit, unless you prefer me to leave it on?
Mr. RUBY. All right.
(Reporter’s note: Recess began 7:33 p.m. During the recess Mr. Fowler
and Mr. Ruby conferred out of the hearing of all in the room.)
Mr. SPECTER. It is now 7:55 p.m. and may the record show that we have
taken a 20-minute recess and have now reconvened for the last session.
Mr. RUBY. You’re not going to ask about the phone calls?
Mr. SPECTER. Those are going to be covered, Mr. Ruby.
Mr. RUBY. I know you are for me, Joe, I know.
Mr. SPECTER. Let us proceed at this point, Mr. Herndon, with the next
series of questions.
Mr. HERNDON. Are you tired, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Do you feel all right?
Mr. RUBY. Fine.
Mr. HERNDON. We shall then continue. I’m going to read off a good
number of questions here, and I’m going to ask them in a series called
9 and a series called 9a.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. HERNDON. And I’m not going to interject any of these other minor
questions. These are all direct questions and I want to make sure that
you understand what they are.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet Oswald at your post office box?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you use your post office mailbox to do any business
with Mexico or Cuba?”
Mr. RUBY. No. Pardon me—why don’t you say, “Did you ever meet him at
the post office or at the club?” Wouldn’t that be good too?
Mr. SPECTER. We have asked you if you ever knew him before, and now
we’re focusing on this.
Mr. RUBY. Oh—“How many times did he come up to the club?”—that’s
something else. Also, somebody said that they saw Tippit, I, this Mr.
Lane stated that he saw Tippit, myself, and Oswald at the club—so go
ahead, I don’t want to throw you off.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, we will add a question there at that point, such as
this: “Did you ever meet with Officer Tippit and Oswald at your club?”
Mr. HERNDON. Do you want that “Oswald and” or “or”?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; we do. Use “and.”
Mr. RUBY. The first thing about that post office box—how do we know
whether it’s really authentic or the man had the box there or not? It
could have been placed there at a later date?
Mr. ALEXANDER. It was right, Jack. He had it. I saw the key myself and
it had “X” number on the box.
Mr. RUBY. How come it never come out before then? Why didn’t it come
out still before that?
Mr. ALEXANDER. It did.
Mr. RUBY. No; it didn’t come out until a long time—until just recently.
It just came out about a week ago.
Mr. ALEXANDER. They just didn’t feature it—it was just overlooked. I
saw the key that night.
Mr. RUBY. But Bill, I know one thing—I know that box could have been
purchased at a later date, after Oswald’s death and could make it look
like it’s close to mine; I know that.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, the situation there isn’t really directly germane
here.
Mr. RUBY. It looks very bad for me, though, I know that.
Mr. ALEXANDER. No; Jack, I saw the key Friday night.
Mr. SPECTER. We will cover the subject matter here, so you will have a
chance under the polygraph examination to cover it.
Mr. RUBY. You probably saw the key, but I know the affiliation with
the Government, that you can always get a box at a later date, if you
wanted to do that.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, on Friday night that key was photographed,
inventoried, and——
Mr. RUBY. What Friday night?
Mr. ALEXANDER. The Friday night of the assassination.
Mr. RUBY. You mean it was known—the number of the box—that Friday night?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes, sir; sure was.
Mr. RUBY. Did the public know about it and everybody else?
Mr. ALEXANDER. I’m sure they did.
Mr. RUBY. All right; go ahead.
Mr. HERNDON. I will proceed, Mr. Ruby. “Did you do business with Castro
Cuba?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Was your trip to Cuba solely for pleasure?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you keep $2,200 in cash on you because you didn’t
have a chance to get to the bank?” Is that question clear?
Mr. RUBY. Let me go off the record. This is going to be ad libbing,
Miss, so can you hold it off on this? Can you hold it off or do you
have to put it down?
COURT REPORTER. Mr. Ruby, you have to ask that man over there—Mr.
Specter.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you want to go off the record, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. All right, off the record at this point.
(Explanation by Mr. Ruby at this point regarding the $2,200 cash item
previously mentioned—off the record.)
Mr. SPECTER. Back on the record. Mr. Ruby, that’s a perfectly good
explanation, and I think it would be better if we put that on the
record as to this point, if it’s all right with you.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; but it’s too crazy, mixed up, the way I was saying it.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, essentially what you’re saying makes good sense.
What you’re saying is that you don’t want to have it in a condition
where somebody can levy on it and get ahold of it before your creditors
got it.
Mr. RUBY. Well. I had the total cash for both clubs, but then, this was
Friday night. Now, knowing my payroll at the Carousel runs to $1,600 or
$1,400 on a Sunday night, and the Vegas Club on Saturday night because
we close Sunday, consequently that money would be absorbed completely
in another night or two.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, that makes good sense. I think that in view of
what your answer has been, it is preferable for us to put it on the
record rather than to have any suggestion that anything that has been
off the record is in anyway damaging or that we’re keeping anything off
the record that ought to be on the record.
Mr. RUBY. Do you want me to go through that again, now? Do you want me
to go through what I said to you now?
Mr. SPECTER. That’s right. Now, Miss Odell Oliver, will you go on
the record with Mr. Ruby now, and since Mr. Ruby has made a brief
explanation with regard to the last question, and at my suggestion
he is willing to put it on the record, and he will now repeat the
substance of what he has previously said.
Mr. RUBY. All right. Due to my sister being ill and away from running
the Vegas Club, I had in my possession for both clubs for operation,
for payrolls and everything else, et cetera, et cetera.
Just a week prior to that I had purchased a safe which I knew it was
necessary to have, and we already had—my maintenanceman had built the
forms for the safe, and we wanted further information as to where to
place this safe in the club where it would be safest where burglars
couldn’t get at it. We called a Mr. Joe Cody of the police department
to advise us where to place the thing. Consequently the safe had not
been placed in cement as yet, and I had been carrying the total amount
of cash for both clubs, the total capital, which include my purchases
if there were to be any made, and the payroll for both clubs, and any
accumulated excise tax money from the beginning of the last quarter for
both clubs. So, hence, that money belonged solely to the operation of
the Vegas Club and the Carousel.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, then we will rephrase that question to this and
simply state—“Have you now told the truth about why you carried $2,200
in cash?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes; but you have a reason for asking me that—whether
that was somebody else’s money or something—yes. All that money is
specifically in relationship to the operation of both clubs.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, we could rephrase it, “Have you now told the truth
concerning why you carried around $2,200 in cash?” and we will cover
the substance of the matter in that question.
Mr. RUBY. In other words, you don’t want to leave it in your apartment
because somebody might break in, but you feel it’s safe, especially if
I’m armed anyway, not that I can handle a gun that well, or whatever it
may be, but somehow you feel—it’s true I had the safe installed because
I thought that would be safer to put any of my possessions in. In other
words, it’s a cash operation. In other words, $2,200 in one week is a
good return anyway.
Mr. HERNDON. I’ll proceed, Mr. Ruby, if you are ready?
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did any foreign influence cause you to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald because of any influence of the
underworld?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, by the word “foreign” in those questions, Mr. Ruby,
we intend to convey to you—by Russia, by Cuba, or by any other foreign
government, so that you may understand the full import of that question.
Mr. RUBY. No—but the whole thing was based on—when was the first time
you thought of it—in other words, that Sunday morning, so in other
words—well, we’ll get to that.
Mr. HERNDON. “No” is the answer?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald because of a labor union influence?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. I will now rephrase that, if I may. “Did you shoot Oswald
because of labor union influence?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did any long-distance telephone calls which you made
before the assassination of the President have anything to do with the
assassination?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did any of your long-distance telephone calls concern the
shooting of Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald in order to save Mrs. Kennedy the
ordeal of a trial?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you know Officer Tippit?”
Mr. RUBY. This is off the record for a minute, please?
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, I think it would be unwise for us to go off the
record on this question.
Mr. RUBY. Well, all right. There were three Officer Tippits in the
police department. I only knew one.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that Officer J. D. Tippit?
Mr. RUBY. He’s the one who was slain?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes—Officer J. D. Tippit?
Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t think he was the one.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you know Officer Tippit who was slain?
Mr. RUBY. No; I don’t know him. You see, I know so many officers and
there are three Tippits, but I know one Tippit, and which one that
is—if I would see him personally and see his physical features and
knowing him—of course, I didn’t have time to—I was incarcerated too
soon to find out. Actually, the Tippit I knew, who worked at special
service in the police department—you know which one I’m talking about,
Bill?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes; but that’s not the one.
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know this Tippit.
Mr. ALEXANDER. This boy had always been a radio patrolman.
Mr. RUBY. Well, I don’t know that I had ever seen this fellow before—I
had never seen him before. I may have seen him before but I didn’t know
him.
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, if I ask a question, “Did you know the Officer
Tippit slain?” Can you reasonably answer that truthfully “Yes” or “No”?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. I mean—you can answer it without any problem mentally?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that’s what I mean.
Mr. SPECTER. To state it differently, you are able to answer whether or
not you knew Officer J. D. Tippit?
Mr. RUBY. Well, I can’t answer “Yes” or “No” and say whether or not.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, I want to be sure that your last answer is
responsive so that we are clear.
Mr. RUBY. Well, I gave the answer “No.”
Mr. ALEXANDER. Let’s put it this way—“Did you know the Tippit that was
killed?”
Mr. RUBY. Repeat that question?
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you know the Tippit that was killed?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you tell the truth about relaying the message to Ray
Brantley to get McWillie a few guns?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you come out of the assembly room on Friday night to
get the telephone number of KLIF?”
Mr. RUBY. Not come out of the assembly room—I went to the assembly room.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you go to the assembly room?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. On Friday night—in order to get the telephone number of
KLIF?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, we want to make that clear. We want to make
that correction.
Mr. RUBY. Did you know that was part of my story, did you know that?
Mr. HERNDON. The question will be worded, Mr. Ruby, “Did you go to the
assembly room on Friday night to get the telephone number of KLIF?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. That’s clear and concise for you?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet with Oswald and Officer Tippit at your
apartment?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. Here again the Officer Tippit is the one we’re talking
about that was killed.
Mr. RUBY. Right.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, those are the questions and we will
proceed on those.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine. Let’s proceed with this series.
Mr. ALEXANDER. What was that last question?
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet with Oswald and Officer Tippit at your
apartment?”
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr. Alexander and Mr. Tonahill
have left the room.
Mr. HERNDON. Do you feel all right now, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Are you tired?
Mr. RUBY. No.
(Reporter’s note: 8:10 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. All right, we can continue. If we may do so, we can save a
little time, I’ll go ahead and ask you about seven or eight questions.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. HERNDON. And I’ll just stop so that I can let the pressure off your
arm.
Mr. RUBY. Don’t worry about me. I’m in good shape. The point is—I want
to get as much in as we can. I don’t want you to miss anything, because
there’s a lot of pertinent stuff.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Ruby, if you will sit back a little bit
higher, and if you will uncross your legs. Take a deep breath.
Mr. RUBY. All right.
Mr. HERNDON. And relax and exhale.
For the record, this will be series 9. If you will look straight ahead
and answer these questions truthfully “Yes” or “No.” We will now begin.
(Reporter’s note: 8:12 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet Oswald at your post office box?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you use your post office mailbox to do any business
with Mexico or Cuba?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you do business with Castro-Cuba?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Was your trip to Cuba solely for pleasure?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Have you now told us the truth concerning why you carried
$2,200 in cash on you?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did any foreign influence cause you to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald because of any influence of the
underworld?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. I’m going to stop here a moment, sir, and release the
pressure on your arm and you just relax for a moment. Then I shall
begin again in a moment.
Mr. RUBY. Okay.
(Reporter’s note: 8:15 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. Just relax, Mr. Ruby.
Does your arm feel all right?
Mr. RUBY. Fine—I’m all right.
Mr. HERNDON. I will continue this next series of questions and it will
be listed as series 9a.
(Reporter’s note: 8:17 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. We will begin again.
“Did you shoot Oswald because of a labor union influence?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did any long-distance telephone calls which you made
before the assassination of the President have anything to do with the
assassination?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did any of your long-distance telephone calls concern the
shooting of Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you shoot Oswald in order to save Mrs. Kennedy the
ordeal of a trial?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you know the Tippit that was killed?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you tell the truth about relaying the message to Ray
Brantley to get McWillie a few guns?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you go to the assembly room on Friday night to get
the telephone number of KLIF?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you ever meet with Oswald and Officer Tippit at your
club?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. That completes that series. I will release that pressure
and you can now relax.
(Reporter’s note: 8:20 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. You seem to be relaxed and feeling fine.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you ready, Mr. Herndon?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; that completes that series.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander have returned to the room.
Mr. HERNDON. Shall I go right into the next series?
Mr. SPECTER. Go right into the series. We just did series 9 and 9a, and
we are now going to series 10.
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; we just have a few more questions.
Mr. RUBY. That’s wonderful, except there are a few things that I think
you’ve left out.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, Mr. Ruby. If you have additional questions you want
asked, we will do our best to cover anything additional when we finish.
Mr. HERNDON. Here are the next questions which I would like to ask
you, Mr. Ruby, on the next series. Again, I want to make sure that you
understand each and every one of them.
“Were you at the Parkland Hospital at any time on Friday?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you say anything at the time you shot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Have any members of your family been physically harmed
because of what you did?”
Mr. RUBY. Not up to this point; no.
Mr. HERNDON. Then, the question can be answered in your mind either
“Yes” or “No”?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. You can answer it?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Do you think members of your family are now in danger
because of what you did?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes, sir.
Mr. HERNDON. “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending you?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did ‘Blackie’ Harrison speak to you just before you shot
Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. I don’t know—so, I’ll say “No.” Oh, I see what you mean.
Mr. HERNDON. “Did ‘Blackie’ Harrison speak to you”——
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. “Just before you shot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. I realize this is based on your recollection, but if you
feel you can answer it “Yes” or “No,” fine.
Mr. RUBY. The trouble is I didn’t hear any sounds of voices—then, I’ve
got to say “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. It’s your recollection you don’t recall Blackie Harrison
speaking to you just before you shot Oswald?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, you answered the question “Yes.” Did you say
something immediately before you shot Oswald?
Mr. HERNDON. I was going to ask that on here and then ask him about
that again.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; but I would like to cover it in advance. What did you
say to Oswald, if you don’t mind?
Mr. RUBY. I said, “You killed my President, you rat”—something like
that. “You killed my” or “our President, you rat.”
Mr. SPECTER. I would like then to modify that question, Mr. Herndon.
“Did you say anything to Oswald immediately before shooting him, other
than, ‘You killed our President, you rat’”? If that’s not too long. I’d
like that.
Mr. HERNDON. Well, just let me sit down and take a good look at that
question.
(At this point there was a conference between Messrs. Specter,
Alexander, and Herndon out of the hearing of others in the room.)
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon, would you now read the question to Mr. Ruby
as we have modified it after consultation.
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, the question will be this way: “Did you say
anything when you shot Oswald other than that what you testified about?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. HERNDON. The testifying about was pertaining to those statements
that you’ve just told us here a few moments ago. Do you follow me there?
Mr. RUBY. The statement I made?
Mr. HERNDON. All right, I will proceed with the series again.
Mr. SPECTER. Let’s proceed with the series.
May the record show that Mr. Tonahill and Mr. Alexander have left the
room.
(Reporter’s note: 8:25 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. Are you ready to begin now, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, if you will uncross your legs and put your feet
flat on the floor, please, Mr. Ruby, and are you comfortable?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Will you look straight ahead during the actual asking of
the questions.
For the record, this is series No. 10.
(Reporter’s note: 8:26 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. I notice during the time—all the time I ask you questions,
Mr. Ruby, that you close your eyes. If that’s a way that you can
concentrate, that’s perfectly all right.
Mr. RUBY. That’s why—if I were guilty of something or if I were
trying to evade something, certainly closing your eyes would be less
advantageous for you to cover up something. Do you follow me? In other
words, closing your eyes means that I do want to tell the truth.
Mr. HERNDON. That’s what I want you to do—just concentrate on the
question alone and you have to make that decision whether you will
answer it “Yes” or “No”.
Mr. RUBY. In other words, if I was trying to cover up anything, I
wouldn’t try to get more of a vision of what you’re trying to refer me
to.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, if you will look straight ahead now, and sit
perfectly still, we will begin, and I will let you know when we’re
going to ask the first question.
Mr. RUBY. In other words, I’m trying to be more emphatic with the truth
when I close my eyes—more than the truth.
Mr. HERNDON. Would you put your complete left hand on that arm
rest—that’s it.
(Reporter’s note: 8:27 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. The test will now begin.
“Is your name Jack Ruby?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Were you at the Parkland Hospital at any time on Friday?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Did you say anything when you shot Oswald other than what
you’ve testified about?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Have members of your family been physically harmed
because of what you did?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.” May I interrupt?
Mr. HERNDON. Just sit perfectly still. We will discuss the questions
later, Mr. Ruby.
“Do you think members of your family are now in danger because of what
you did?”
Mr. Ruby (no response).
Mr. HERNDON. “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending you?”
Mr. Ruby (no response).
Mr. HERNDON. “Did ‘Blackie’ Hanson speak to you just before you shot
Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. “No.”
Mr. HERNDON. That will conclude that series, and just sit still a
moment, Mr. Ruby, and I will let the pressure out. Now, as soon as I
shut this off, we will discuss these questions.
(Reporter’s note: 8:30 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. On that series of questions, Mr. Ruby, you failed to
respond or answer one or two of these questions, which I’ll give you an
opportunity now to make any comment you wish to make about them.
Question No. 5, I asked, “Do you think members of your family are now
in danger because of what you did?”
Mr. RUBY. Well, they’re always exposed to it, so I don’t know how to
answer that.
Mr. HERNDON. In other words, you felt it would be difficult for you to
say either “Yes” or “No”; is that correct?
Mr. RUBY. That’s right; the same way with Fowler. I know when he’s
representing me, he’s putting himself on the spot.
Mr. WOOD. Neither the court reporter nor I got the last name of
“Blackie”—exactly.
Mr. HERNDON. I believe I said “Harrison.” That’s the way I had it in
my notes, but perhaps you might have gotten the impression I said
“Hanson.” You knew who I was talking about, Mr. Ruby?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. That’s the main thing that you knew exactly who I meant.
Mr. SPECTER. I believe you said “Harrison.”
Mr. Ruby, are there any other questions which you would like to be
covered with you?
Mr. HERNDON. Excuse me, Mr. Specter, I have one more question here. For
my records—he did not respond to question No. 6. If you want, I can go
over that and we can discuss that question without any response.
Mr. SPECTER. No; I’d like to discuss that. Mr. Tonahill and Mr.
Alexander have already returned to the room, and I would like to
discuss that if it’s all right with you here. Let the record show that
we would like to cover that now.
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Ruby, on that last series, I asked a question, “Is Mr.
Fowler in danger because he is defending you?” You remained silent,
which is one of the instructions I gave you, if you so pleased to do.
Would you at this time indicate to me why you wanted to remain silent?
Mr. RUBY. Well, No. 1, this is quite a notorious thing, and don’t
forget, it’s just like I specified when Earl Warren was in danger, you
know, so he is—in other words, people have a dislike for me, and Mr.
Fowler is trying to defend me, and this won’t make him too popular a
person—too well liked of a person, I should say.
Mr. HERNDON. Then, you just simply didn’t want to come out with a “Yes”
or “No” answer?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; because I wouldn’t know how to answer that.
Mr. HERNDON. All right, Mr. Specter. Thank you.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, do you now have any other questions which you
would like us to ask you on this polygraph examination?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; “At what time did I first think of wanting—when was the
first time it ever entered my mind that I wanted to commit this act?”
Mr. SPECTER. You mean the shooting of Oswald?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. We asked you that.
Mr. RUBY. You did—because if anything prior to that—in other words——
Mr. SPECTER. No; we asked you that very carefully a number of ways and
one way was when Mr. Herndon asked you did you think of it on Friday,
and you said “No”; did you think of it on Saturday morning—“No”; did
you think of it on Saturday evening—“No”; on Sunday morning “Yes,”—so
we’ve covered that very thoroughly.
Mr. RUBY. Have I ever received any monies—we don’t need that, do we,
for subversive purposes or anything.
Mr. SPECTER. I think we’ve covered that whole area very carefully.
Mr. RUBY. Now, what about my being present in the News Building that
morning? Here—the assassination took place across the street from there?
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, I think we have covered that when we asked
you if you told the truth on your testimony before the President’s
Commission, because you went into that on June 7, and that isn’t nearly
the central issue as the other specific questions we have asked you.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; but if I was in a conspiracy, wouldn’t it start off with
that point? Oh, yes; they didn’t ask me another question: “If I loved
the President so much, why wasn’t I at the parade?” Is that a very
important question to ask?
Mr. SPECTER. We have considered those questions and that was when we
reviewed the transcript of your testimony, and quite frankly, we have
rejected them as being not important.
Mr. RUBY. You have? I see. Now, isn’t it strange—now, I want to tell
you something that’s noticeable in this part of the country about the
poll tax, and there are a lot of other reasons, maybe. I’m reluctant to
buy my poll tax in time, and I don’t recall whether or not—is this all
right to go in the record if I speak?
Mr. SPECTER. You may go on the record with any facet you think is
important for the Commission to know about.
Mr. RUBY. And yet, it’s strange that perhaps I didn’t vote for
President Kennedy, or didn’t vote at all, that I should build up such
a great affection for him, when everything points against me. For
instance, the parade issue I referred to. How can I answer that and
still show my sincerity or my feelings and why I was carried away so
emotionally to do something like that, that has put me in such serious
trouble?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, there’s no way to put that on the machine other
than to ask you if you told the truth in your testimony; and that’s an
opinion without concrete facts.
Mr. RUBY. But I don’t remember if I got all the testimony in when
Warren was here.
Mr. SPECTER. You testify now as to anything you want to add and we can
ask you one question at the end and that will be “Have you told the
truth in everything you’ve said here today?” That one question will
cover everything you said, so that if any other phase comes to your
mind now, let us hear about it.
Mr. RUBY. What I’m trying to bring out is this: It’s—and everyone
was very much surprised—why should I be carried away so emotionally
to commit the act, and yet knowing how I felt and knowing I know I’m
telling the truth, how can we bring that point out that I am not
sincere in why I did it?
Mr. SPECTER. We can bring that out with the one general question. Now,
is there any other topic you would like to testify about and have us
check you on your truthfulness?
Mr. RUBY. Yes—whether or not I was ever mixed up with the underworld
here or involved in any crime?
Mr. SPECTER. You’ve been asked that specifically, and you’ve testified
about that.
Mr. RUBY. Yes. You see, I’ve been in Dallas 17 years and yet suddenly
I get involved in a very serious crime and I was very popular with the
police department and a lot of other people, and the irony is—it took a
complete reverse of that, because of various suspicions, nature, and so
on.
I wonder if you follow what I’m trying to bring out? Maybe there’s
something we can cover in that area.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, let’s cover it this way. “Were any of your
relations with the police department improper?”
Mr. RUBY. No—you, like doing business or something or other?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes?
Mr. RUBY. No—none whatsoever.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Well, would that question cover what you had in mind?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Tell us what you had in mind and then we’ll frame the
question, because that’s an area.
Mr. RUBY. Whether or not I am of criminal background or whether I’m
an honest and sincere person, because all those things came out and
suspicions came out that Jack Ruby was involved in this and that and
leaves a lot of suspicion as to my background and my character. That’s
very vague, but that’s what I’m trying to bring out.
Mr. ALEXANDER. How would this question be? “Are you a police character?”
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. TONAHILL. “Are you a 100 percent patriotic American citizen?”
Mr. ALEXANDER. “Are you a law-abiding citizen?”
Mr. RUBY. That’s better—that’s the question.
Mr. ALEXANDER. “Are you a law-abiding patriotic citizen?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. TONAHILL. “Are you a 100 percent American patriotic citizen?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. That can be asked.
Mr. RUBY. That’s very good, because—shall I elaborate on this?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. I became closely attached to our beloved President when he
gave that wonderful speech when we had our problem in Cuba at that
time. That was a very tremendous speech and then I followed him on
television and in magazines wherever he went—to Ireland and different
places.
Now, Joe asked a very good question. In other words, either you are
American or you’re half and half or you’re indifferent to the way you
feel about your country and how much you love it.
When he stated to me a moment ago, “Are you 100 percent
American?”—that’s the way you feel about your country. I don’t know how
to state it but first of all, I want to make sure—I’ve got my flags
in both colors—that doesn’t show any overt—but inwardly, I’m a very
unstable person. I’m very lax in certain details and things, and yet
for the emotional feeling and the feeling for giving my life and for
loving this country is so great, that I think when you asked me that
question, “Are you 100 percent American?” and if I answered the truth,
it will greater effect than any other way you can ask me.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, we can cover that one in a specific question, in
another general question, on whether you have told the complete truth
here today. Are there any other topics which you want to cover?
Mr. RUBY. Oh, yes, sir. Has any of the underworld ever contributed
money to me for my clubs, or was I put in here as a front for the
underworld or things to that effect. I mean—this has a relationship to
criminal intent.
Mr. SPECTER. We’ve asked you the question if the underworld had any
connection with the shooting of Oswald.
Let me now ask you for the record while you are under oath, whether you
were put in here by the underworld?
Mr. RUBY. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did the underworld contribute in any way to the financing
of any of your clubs?
Mr. RUBY. None whatsoever.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any connection or association in any way
whatsoever with the underworld during the past 17 years you’ve been in
Dallas?
Mr. RUBY. Never have.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, we’ll ask you in a few moments with Mr. Herndon,
whether you’ve told the truth, and that will be covered—that will cover
this underworld question.
Mr. RUBY. Just the one question is enough to cover it?
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon advises that it is.
Mr. HERNDON. I can ask that question and have it a matter of record.
Mr. RUBY. You see, there are so many things that I know in the minds of
the people in Dallas that you’re not concerned with, that maybe I was
put here as a front of the underworld and sooner or later they will get
something out of me that they want done to their advantage.
Everything I have had financed, my brother Earl has contributed the
money for or Ralph Paul, a friend of mine, has loaned me money.
Mr. HERNDON. Mr. Specter, if I can interrupt—on some of these
questions you are recently discussing here are more or less in the
area of emotions and the area dealing with advance psychology or of a
psychiatric nature, and although I can ask them if you so wish, they
are questions that don’t necessarily lend themselves to the polygraph
technique.
Unless you can specifically break them down to a clearcut question
which could be answered truthfully “Yes” or “No,” that involves a
specific action or emotion that he can recall in regard to a particular
action, then it would not be a good question here.
Mr. SPECTER. I agree with you.
Mr. HERNDON. You see, this 100 percent American type question doesn’t
necessarily lend itself to polygraph examination.
Mr. SPECTER. I agree with your conclusion, but what we’re trying to
do now is to cover all of the important substantive questions which I
think we have. After Mr. Ruby tells me that he is satisfied with what
we have covered, I propose to ask the same question of Mr. Fowler and
Mr. Alexander and also Mr. Tonahill, so that we will have covered the
subject matter. We will do our utmost to be all-inclusive here, so that
whatever effect the polygraph can gage as to Mr. Ruby’s truthfulness,
we will do so.
Mr. RUBY. Let me put it this way: Here I run a nightclub. I run a
nightclub and on Friday this tragic event happens and I get carried
away more so than anyone else. Why? Why was I so sick mentally or so
carried away?
I immediately replaced my newspaper ads so that I would be closed for
those 3 days. This is the ironic part of it, that wouldn’t it be a
tremendous hoax, or certain people would probably believe it that
way, that here’s a fellow that didn’t vote for the President, closes
his clubs for 3 days, made a trip to Cuba, relayed a message from a
person—from Ray Brantley—look at circumstantially how guilty I am? If
you want to put all these things together? Then, I happen to be down
there, which is a million and one shot, that I should happen to be down
there at that particular second when this man comes out of whatever
it was—an elevator or whatever it was—all these things—plus the fact
of the post office box and other rumors that they saw us together at
the club—how can we give me the clearance that the ads I put in were
authentic, my sincerity, my feeling of emotionalism were sincere; that
that Sunday morning I got carried away after reading the article, a
letter addressed to Caroline and then this little article that stated
Mrs. Kennedy might be requested to come back and face the ordeal of the
trial?
Also, if there was a conspiracy, then this little girl that called me
on the phone in Fort Worth then is a part of the conspiracy. Do you
follow me?
Mr. SPECTER. I understand you, Mr. Ruby, but you have testified about
most of this on the prior occasion, such as seeing the article in
the newspaper, about the letter to little Caroline and about the
necessity for Mrs. Kennedy to return, and we have formulated the
questions concerning the major topics which we have of concern and
have supplemented those topics in the questions to you. I think in all
fairness that we have gone as far as we can on any of the substantive
questions, and I want you to be satisfied, and the Commission wants you
to be satisfied, and that’s why I keep repeating the question—whether
you have any other topic. I can see you are trying to recollect
something else—so that you will have covered everything in a conclusive
way.
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. As soon as you are satisfied on that, I’m going to ask the
other gentlemen a question, as I say, and as a matter of fact, I can do
that now while you are still thinking.
I will ask Mr. Fowler if there is any other question that he would like
to have asked of you at this time?
Mr. FOWLER. Sir, I know of no other questions that could be asked at
this time.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Tonahill, do you have any other questions you would
like to have asked?
Mr. TONAHILL. No, I don’t. I think it has been very, very
comprehensive. From my knowledge of the background, I think if you
asked Jack if he went to the Dallas Morning News that morning to
attend to business and protested vigorously the ad insulting President
Kennedy, if he protested because he’s a 100 percent patriotic American
citizen, I think he would, tell you “Yes” and he would be telling the
truth.
I think if you asked him why he went out about 4 o’clock in the morning
with George Senator and Larry and took that picture of the sign——
Mr. RUBY. Don’t mention anything about that—we’re in a bad spot down
here because of that.
Mr. TONAHILL (continuing). Of Chief Justice Earl Warren, he would tell
you that he did it because he was going to turn it over to the FBI and
some attorneys, because he thought it was un-American and he did it
because he’s a 100 percent patriotic American citizen, and he’s telling
the truth.
Mr. RUBY. I also went over to the post office to check on the box.
Mr. TONAHILL. The same thing on the box—to see there if the post office
numbers on the sign and in the newspaper ad meant the same person was
behind it, which would be the John Birchers and Communists both, and he
wanted to do something about it because he’s a 100 percent patriotic
American citizen, he would be telling the truth.
Mr. RUBY. I didn’t know about the ad—you’re talking about the ad
against President Kennedy?
Mr. TONAHILL. Yes.
Mr. RUBY. I didn’t refer to the John Birch—with reference to that.
Mr. TONAHILL. He wanted to see if they were connected together—the same
people.
Mr. RUBY. I didn’t mention the term “John Birch.” I just said, “I
wonder who could have placed that ad in there?”
Mr. TONAHILL. That’s all I have.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Alexander, do you have any questions to ask?
Mr. ALEXANDER. I have no questions to ask. I think it has been most
comprehensive.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Ruby, did you go to the Dallas Morning News to protest
the advertisement that made derogatory statements about President
Kennedy?
Mr. RUBY. No; I went there to place my ad, because my business is
very—it’s very important that I’m there on the weekend, in the first
place. My business is conducted on a cash basis, and you can’t place
your ads unless you are there to pay for them.
Mr. SPECTER. You testified to that before?
Mr. RUBY. Yes; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any comment about the newspaper advertisement
which contained derogatory references to President Kennedy?
Mr. RUBY. We spoke about it up at the Morning News there, and I didn’t
want to make anything there about it because I knew they accepted it.
They accepted the ad. It would be rather embarrassing to say something
to them because they were responsible. The phones were ringing off the
desks with people canceling various ads and so on, but I did make—I
went to the Turf Club—that’s where I got all hepped up about it—over at
the Turf Lounge, and I went to the post office to find out who was it
that placed that ad, you know, and how it came about.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you satisfied then, Mr. Ruby, if we ask you one more
question on the polygraph, specifically, “Has all the information
which you have testified to today been the truth, the whole truth, and
nothing but the truth?”
Mr. RUBY. Plus the fact that I do want to get in my feeling for
Americanism and how I felt, because—remember—there may be unseen
persons that may not believe in my sincerity, so I want that
specifically asked—how I feel about my country I live in and so on,
unless it’s repeating something. Is it?
Mr. SPECTER. Well, we will ask it of you again so that there’s no
question about. We will formulate the question, “Do you consider
yourself to be a 100 percent American patriot?”
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And then we’ll ask the general question about whether
every bit of information you’ve given us today has been the whole truth?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. All right, will you proceed, Mr. Herndon and ask those two
questions.
Mr. RUBY. One more thing—shouldn’t you ask me, or isn’t it necessary,
why I suddenly was so carried away to get involved in this serious
crime?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Jack, that won’t work on the machine.
Mr. SPECTER. We have to ask you a “Yes” or “No” question, and
we’ve already covered that by asking you the question about Mrs.
Kennedy—whether you didn’t shoot Oswald to avoid having her come to
trial.
Mr. RUBY. Yes; that covers that.
Mr. SPECTER. That covers that subject.
Mr. RUBY. In other words, I can’t answer that truthfully and have
another reason for doing it; is that correct?
Mr. SPECTER. Correct.
Mr. RUBY. That would answer that?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes. We’ve asked you all the reasons——
Mr. RUBY. But you don’t ask me why I did it, though? Why I was carried
away so much—you don’t ask me that.
Mr. SPECTER. We did ask you—we asked you “Why did you shoot Oswald?”
Mr. RUBY. But you don’t ask me why I got carried away so?
Mr. SPECTER. Well, it’s the same question.
Mr. RUBY. Oh, it’s the same question.
Mr. SPECTER. This is the same question—in the form of: “Did you do it
in order to save Mrs. Kennedy the travail of a trip to Dallas?” That
subject matter has been covered as comprehensively as we can through
the polygraph.
Now, will you proceed, Mr. Herndon, and ask those final questions?
Mr. HERNDON. I would like to proceed with, “Are you Jack Ruby?”
Mr. SPECTER. That’s fine—that’s your line.
Mr. HERNDON. Then, I’ll ask you. “Do you consider yourself to be a 100
percent American patriot?”
Then, what was the last question you wanted asked, Mr. Specter?
Mr. SPECTER. “Is all of the testimony given by you today the complete
truth?”
Mr. HERNDON. I think I can ask those questions now.
Mr. Ruby, does this noise disturb you right now, are you conscious of
it or aware of it [referring to audible conversations between other
jail occupants outside this room]?
Mr. RUBY. I hear it.
Mr. HERNDON. Are you all right?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. Are you tired?
Mr. RUBY. No; I’m all right.
Mr. HERNDON. Are you getting a little tired?
Mr. RUBY. I’m all right.
Mr. HERNDON. I’ll ask you just these last few questions. Would you once
again kindly put your feet flat on the floor, and let’s put these back
so you will be comfortable.
(Reporter’s note: 8:55 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. I will have to wait for the instrument to warm up just a
second. This will be series No. 11.
(Mr. Herndon snapped his fingers one time.)
Mr. HERNDON. Are you ready to proceed?
Mr. RUBY. Yes.
Mr. HERNDON. I’ll just ask these three questions, and once again, these
are more or less summation questions here, and I want you just to relax
and answer them simply, “Yes” or “No.”
The series will now begin.
“Are you Jack Ruby?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Do you consider yourself to be a 100 percent American
patriot?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. “Has all the testimony given by you today been the
complete truth?”
Mr. RUBY. “Yes.”
Mr. HERNDON. The series is over.
(Reporter’s note: 8:59 p.m.)
Mr. HERNDON. I have no questions, Mr. Specter.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you. That concludes the polygraph examination.
Mr. HERNDON. Now, I will take all this paraphernalia off of you, Mr.
Ruby.
Mr. SPECTER. I would like to have you sign your name about 10 times,
for us, Mr. Ruby, and would you put the date on this for us too? The
date is July 18, 1964.
Mr. RUBY. Let me have my glasses, Joe.
Mr. TONAHILL (handed glasses to Mr. Ruby).
Mr. SPECTER. And now would you write the sentence at the bottom, “Now
is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country.”
Mr. RUBY (complied with request of Mr. Specter).
Mr. SPECTER. Now, would you skip down and write that again. I would
like for you to write that three times in all, and you might sit down
and take a chair and do so.
Mr. RUBY (complied with request of Mr. Specter).
Mr. SPECTER. Very good.
Mr. RUBY. What time is it?
Mr. HERNDON. It’s 9 o’clock.
Mr. SPECTER. I have five after nine—Dallas, Tex., time.
Mr. RUBY. Joe, are you going to do what I asked you to?
Mr. TONAHILL. I’m going to do my best. You know me well enough to know
that I’m going to do my best.
Mr. RUBY. I know you well enough.
Mr. HERNDON. You were very cooperative, Mr. Ruby.
Mr. TONAHILL. Goodbye, Jack. Good to see you.
Mr. RUBY. You’re going to do what I ask you to do?
Mr. TONAHILL. I’m going to do my best. I told you I would. Everything I
do is for your best interest and I have worked awful hard.
Mr. RUBY. I know. You are a big man and I know how big you can be.
Mr. TONAHILL. I’m going to do my best, like I said, and not let
anything under the sun happen.
Mr. RUBY. You know what I’m talking about?
Mr. TONAHILL. I know exactly what you’re talking about.
(Before leaving the room Mr. Ruby conferred briefly with Messrs.
Tonahill and Alexander out of the hearing of others in the room, and
departed with Chief Jailer Holman at 9:07 p.m.)
TESTIMONY OF DR. WILLIAM ROBERT BEAVERS
The testimony of Dr. William Robert Beavers was taken at 9:10 p.m., on
July 18, 1964, at the Dallas County Jail, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Arlen
Specter, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Present
were: Bell P. Herndon and W. James Wood, special agents of the FBI;
Clayton Fowler and Joe H. Tonahill, counsel for Jack Ruby; William F.
Alexander, assistant district attorney for Dallas County, Tex.; and
E. L. Holman, chief jailer.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that it is 10 minutes after 9 p.m.
and that Mr. Ruby has departed in the custody of Chief Jailer E. L.
Holman and that we are reconvening for the purpose of taking testimony
from Dr. William Robert Beavers at the request of Mr. Fowler and Mr.
Tonahill.
Dr. Beavers, would you stand and raise your right hand, please? Do you
solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this proceeding
before the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President
Kennedy shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?
Dr. BEAVERS. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you be seated please, and state your full name for
the record.
Dr. BEAVERS. William Robert Beavers.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession, please?
Dr. BEAVERS. I am a psychiatrist and physician.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you set forth your home and office addresses, please?
Dr. BEAVERS. Yes. My home address is 4071 Northlawn Drive, Dallas. My
office is at 3911 Maple, Dallas, which is Woodlawn Psychiatric Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe briefly your educational background,
please?
Dr. BEAVERS. Yes, I finished medical school here at Southwestern in
Dallas in 1953, interned in Wayne County General Hospital in Eloise,
Mich. I had a fellowship in pharmacology in 1954–55, spent 2 years
in the Air Force in the Arctic in research and returned; I was an
assistant professor of pharmacology for 3 years and during that time
I took a year of internal medicine at St. Paul’s Hospital here in
Dallas. Following this in 1960 I entered a residency in psychiatry
at Southwestern here in Dallas and completed the residency in 1963.
Following this, I went back on the faculty of the Medical School as
assistant professor of psychiatry.
Mr. SPECTER. And, do you hold the latter position at the present time?
Dr. BEAVERS. That’s correct.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you a member of any accredited psychiatric societies?
Dr. BEAVERS. Yes; I’m a member of the Dallas neuropsychiatric group,
the Texas Neuropsychiatric Society and the American Psychiatric
Association.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now set forth the major items of your background
with respect to qualifications in the field of psychiatry?
Dr. BEAVERS. Perhaps it should be mentioned that I am on the attending
staff at Parkland as a psychiatrist and that I consult at the Terrell
State Hospital as a psychiatrist.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you had occasion to examine Mr. Jack Ruby prior to
today?
Dr. BEAVERS. Yes; on numerous occasions prior to about 4 weeks ago, did
I see him.
Mr. SPECTER. On approximately how many occasions have you examined Mr.
Ruby?
Dr. BEAVERS. Without my records here, it would not completely accurate,
but it would be in the area of about 9 or 10 times, I believe.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you observe with respect to Mr. Ruby’s mental
condition during the course of those examinations?
Dr. BEAVERS. I saw him first—can I get somebody to help me with a date?
Mr. TONAHILL. April the 27th, the 28th, or 29th of this year.
Dr. BEAVERS. The day that Dr. West first came down was on a Sunday.
Mr. TONAHILL. Yes, that was the 26th of April.
Dr. BEAVERS. He testified Monday morning and then I saw Mr. Ruby first
on that Tuesday.
Mr. TONAHILL. The 28th.
Dr. BEAVERS. Right, and at that time he had briefly what I call
a psychotic depression, that is, he had evidences of auditory
hallucinations and a poorly defined but definite delusional system
which waxed and waned during the time of the interview, and he had
evidence of a severe degree of depression.
Because of the combined symptoms of the hallucinatory activity, the
delusions in which, and I should spell them out, that he felt that both
members of his family, his close family, were being harmed, mutilated
and/or destroyed because of his crime, and further, that there was a
pogrom concerning Jews generally because of his crime.
These symptoms plus the depression which was evident, caused me to
diagnose a psychotic depressive reaction.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now stated your conclusion regarding his mental
state?
Dr. BEAVERS. At that time.
Mr. SPECTER. And have you set forth the essence of the underlying
factors relating to that conclusion?
Dr. BEAVERS. In very brief nature—yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any different conclusion as to his mental
state today?
Dr. BEAVERS. Yes. I do. I think that as I have seen him, the depressive
element has diminished, and that the delusional system has become much
less open and obvious, and that it has become more fixed, and it seems
to—and this I’m not sure of—whether it waxes and wanes depending on
the time in the weeks or whether it waxes and wanes depending on the
closeness of the people that he sees.
Mr. SPECTER. Doctor, when you say that the state is much less open, do
you mean by that, that it is now more obvious?
Dr. BEAVERS. Less obvious.
Mr. SPECTER. Less obvious?
Dr. BEAVERS. Less obvious.
Mr. SPECTER. But is it present, notwithstanding the degree of how much
it is apparent?
Dr. BEAVERS. In my opinion it is. Yes. The thing that I’m trying to
make clear here is that you take a person that has a mental illness
which shows itself in delusions, that is, ideas that things that we say
aren’t real—they can be very uncertain and changing and very obvious,
and which the person will share them with just about anybody, or they
can be much more covert—hidden—and shared only seldom, and much more
fixed, not shifting around, but fixed.
Mr. SPECTER. How would you characterize his condition in your opinion
as he sat here today during the polygraph examination?
Dr. BEAVERS. Based on—let’s see if I can give the specific things that
make me come up with this opinion—the relationship that he has with the
prosecuting attorney, the relationship he has with his attorneys; there
are certain kinds of actions and behavior in these two relationships
which fit better in my opinion with the continuation of a covert
delusional system concerning threat to his race, his family, based on
his presumed activity in a conspiracy, then it would fit with rational
realistic appreciation of the factors in his environment.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you present today, Dr. Beavers, during the entire
course of the polygraph examination?
Dr. BEAVERS. Yes, I was.
Mr. SPECTER. In your opinion, was Mr. Ruby in contact with reality
during the course of the polygraph examination?
Dr. BEAVERS. In the greater proportion of the time that he answered
the questions, I felt that he was aware of the questions and that
he understood them, and that he was giving answers based on an
appreciation of reality.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any element of a delusional state present in the
answers which he gave during the course of this polygraphic examination?
Dr. BEAVERS. I felt the only time that there were questions which
tapped any of the underlying delusional systems were the questions
relating to his opinion about the safety of his defense counsel and the
safety of his family, either past or present.
It seemed to me, because he was fairly certain in his answers during
the trial run, and then following this during the actual run of the
polygraph, there was so much hesitation and uncertainty which resulted
in no answers, that we were seeing a good deal of internal struggle as
to just what was reality.
His explanation following this, following the run of the polygraph, I
don’t think enlightened us very much in terms of what it was he was
actually feeling or thinking.
Mr. SPECTER. But would you have concluded that he was delusional had he
stated that his family and his attorneys were in danger?
Dr. BEAVERS. I’ve got to think about that. You can’t answer it “Yes”—if
it had been as strong a question as it might have been possible to
frame, but I feel that to get a perfectly accurate idea of what he
meant by it would require more than a “Yes” or “No” answer, but this
would have been one of things that had he answered it directly, that
would have led me to think that he had an area here where reality in
the testimony was poor.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, does his refusal to answer that question during the
course of the polygraph examination, subject to the analysis that the
polygraphic examinations can bring to bear, indicate that he is not in
a delusional state?
Dr. BEAVERS. I’m not sure I follow you here.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, perhaps I can rephrase that.
During the course of the polygraphic examinations, he is subject to
certain checks on truthfulness, at least to some extent.
Dr. BEAVERS. I see what you’re getting at now.
That would be an assumption, I think, on both our parts that I wouldn’t
make as to why he didn’t answer. It possibly could have been his trying
to protect in some way an answer from the polygraph.
I felt it equally likely that it was the fact that it was the second
time through on the same question which he had answered first and
then there had been a lot of thinking going on, was a great deal more
opportunity for uncertainty.
Mr. SPECTER. So, you think his first answer that his family and counsel
were in danger, indicated to some extent at least, a delusional state,
and then after he had had an opportunity to consider it, that he became
uncertain because of the greater opportunity to focus on what in your
opinion was a delusion to start with?
Dr. BEAVERS. Yes. This thing to me is complicated, maybe because—for
example, if I can digress for a moment.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; feel free to do that.
Dr. BEAVERS. Chief Holman has told me a number of times and I have seen
it in a sense, he feels that this man has tried to seem delusional. On
the other hand, at times it is quite obvious that he is trying to seem
sane and becomes quite truculent and angry at people who imply that he
was in fact of unsound mind.
One of the things I think that is extremely obvious in any of this
man’s discourse over a period of time is the marked ambivalence, that
is, the mixed feelings which are strong but on both sides of almost any
position that he has taken.
This may be true at the time or it may be true sequentially, so that
on the one hand we see him trying to appear quite sane and according
to some testimony, at times he has not done this but in fact, not
according to my own testimony, but the statements that I have heard
from others, he has tried to appear a little bit more delusional than
the person thought that he was.
Now, I felt that this answer that we saw the second time around was
consistent with the same attitude that he had when he came, when he
was stating very definitely that he was not of unsound mind. In other
words, it may have given him a little more time to cover.
Mr. SPECTER. Aside from the questions to which you have referred on
the danger to counsel and family, did the delusional state which you
have characterized as his condition of today, have any effect in your
opinion on the polygraphic examination?
Dr. BEAVERS. I can’t answer the question like it’s put, but I can
answer it this way, if I may, because I’m just not an expert on that
box over there. I don’t know that much about polygraph.
Mr. SPECTER. You are referring to the polygraph machine. Well, consider
the question rephrased in a manner that you find it convenient to
respond to?
Dr. BEAVERS. All right. I felt that so far as my ability to evaluate
this man in responding to questions, that any delusional state did not
interfere with awareness of the past, with the presence of seemingly
adequate memory, with the presence of an apparently reasonable
appreciation of reality in reference to his whereabouts and his
behavior in the critical time that was under discussion.
In short, he seemed to behave like a man with a well-fixed delusional
system in which whole areas of his thinking and his behavior is not
strongly interfered by the delusion.
Mr. SPECTER. So that the major portion of the polygraphic examination
then, except for those parts which you have already referred to, would
not be affected in your opinion by what you have characterized as his
delusional state?
Dr. BEAVERS. In my opinion, the major portion of his appreciation of
questions and of his answers would be unaffected by the delusional
state.
I just can’t, you see, in all honesty, answer something about what
the machine taps, because I think I would sort of be making a fool of
myself because I don’t know that much about polygraph.
Mr. SPECTER. Dr. Beavers, do you have an opinion as to whether the
polygraphic examination which was conducted here today hurt Mr. Ruby
mentally or physically in any way?
Dr. BEAVERS. Well, after the period of time, I think we were all
fatigued. I think he was and I think everybody in the room was. I felt
that he was fatigued as the rest of us were, during the course of a
pretty long number of hours of interrogation.
Whether this would come under the heading of any physical harm, I don’t
know. I would not consider it so ordinarily.
Mr. SPECTER. Would that fatigue diminish or evaporate with some rest
tonight?
Dr. BEAVERS. I think so; I think so. I know what you’re trying to
get at and I’ll try to answer it the best I can. The question of
whether his mental state, and secondarily, a physical problem would be
seriously affected by having this interrogation, by having this man
take a polygraph examination. The one thing that this man has not been
ambivalent on since my acquaintanceship with him, and I mean that so
far as I can think of literally, the one area, the one subject that
he has not been having these mixed feelings about is the fact that he
did want to make this testimony, either with truth serum or with a
polygraph or some way of getting the truth out.
Now, as a physician, and this was my role in these evaluations, not
at the time and so far until right now, not as somebody testifying,
I was concerned with his mental state, and rather early I felt there
would possibly be something useful so far as the man’s mental state,
if he could have a chance to tell his story. The mixture of what I
consider his delusional state surrounding the possible conspiracy
that people thought that he had, and therefore this tremendous number
of destructive actions, that were presumably going on, fitted to an
extent with some published reports of people’s opinions here and
abroad. In short, there has been a mixture of the delusional and of the
factual, a mixture of his confusion and a mixture of all other people’s
confusion, and he is aware of it and has been, because apparently he
gets newspapers. Apparently he has access to what both reasoned and
unreasoned statements that are made. Consequently, I felt that it
would be useful, if anything, that he be allowed a chance for this. I
haven’t stated this to anybody, I don’t think, because there were a lot
of other things that I could not evaluate. I’m not in a position to
evaluate the legal or other reasons that might not be useful.
Mr. SPECTER. But with respect to his mental status, would it have been
your expectation prior to the time that the polygraph examination
started that it would have been beneficial rather than harmful to have
it conducted?
Dr. BEAVERS. If anything, the odds are good that it actually wouldn’t
do much one way or the other in my opinion, but the feeling of getting
out the catharsis or the getting his story before the people that he
has felt, for example, including the State, that were involved in
some kind of action against people he cared for, because they assumed
erroneously there was some conspiracy, then this might have some
beneficial effect.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is your conclusion after being present during the
course of the polygraphic examination as to whether it had beneficial
effect or not?
Dr. BEAVERS. It’s hard to say. I think he held up rather remarkedly
well. At least, this is my opinion. I haven’t been present with
polygraph interrogations, but he certainly did not show undue stress,
either physical or emotional, and handled the questions better than
I thought he would. It did seem like he was getting, in a sense, his
day in court, which was by reasons of his, as I understand it, trial
procedure and presumed defense tactics not allowed him in the first
trial. This to me is what he kept coming back to during the course of
the examination, that he wanted to get his story out, and during the
times I have seen him.
Mr. SPECTER. Is it your interpretation that the consequence during the
course of this polygraph examination may have the ultimate consequence
of benefiting him?
Dr. BEAVERS. I think it could. I would suspect, if I tried to look and
see what would happen tomorrow, that he might be somewhat depressed.
This usually is what happens with somebody who has been looking forward
to something for a long, long time that’s going to be solving all of
his problems and it actually happens and nothing much is different, but
I think he will be depressed.
Mr. SPECTER. If he is depressed tomorrow, is that what you would think
would be a temporary state?
Dr. BEAVERS. Yes; I think it.
Mr. SPECTER. So that that would not necessarily characterize the
longrun effects of this examination?
Dr. BEAVERS. That’s correct.
Mr. SPECTER. When you characterized a few moments ago his situation
as being fatigued, as we all were, do you think that he understood
all the questions which were being put to him and then answered them
responsively, or do you think that at some point his fatigue reached
such a point that he was not responding understandably to the questions?
Dr. BEAVERS. I was impressed with the skill of the man giving the test.
I felt the breaks were fairly well spaced. He didn’t show an excessive
amount of fatigue, in my view, except before the first break. He seemed
to show more fatigue then than he did later on.
Mr. SPECTER. Of course, you observed his interest in pursuing a great
many topics and the difficulty really in bringing the examination to a
close.
Dr. BEAVERS. Yes; which sort of fits with my feeling about the
depression a little bit in that he was aware that, well, “the show
is about over,” that his day in court was coming to a close, and I
suspect that the long-expected kinds of feelings probably were not as
great as he hoped for.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything else to add which you think would be
helpful to the President’s Commission in any way?
Dr. BEAVERS. I would only say that I think I’ll make it my business to
read up a little bit on some of the interrelationships between mental
illness and polygraph. When I state that I’m not an expert in this
area, it’s true. If by a combination of my readings, which I plan to
do, and my presence here and my previous and present views of Mr. Ruby,
I might be of help in forming an opinion, I will be available.
Mr. SPECTER. If you find through that course of study that you have
anything to add, I’m certain the Commission would be interested in
having any supplemental observations or conclusions on your part.
Mr. Fowler, do you have anything you would care to ask Dr. Beavers?
Mr. FOWLER. I am requesting Mr. Tonahill to ask a few questions, if you
have no objection, which is not in the way of cross-examination but
just by way of a further development.
Mr. SPECTER. All right, Mr. Tonahill.
Mr. TONAHILL. Dr. Beavers, during the trial of Jack Ruby for the murder
of Lee Harvey Oswald, Mr. Bill Alexander, the assistant district
attorney, sought and obtained a death sentence for Jack Ruby for the
murder of Oswald, and I along with other counsel sought far less—an
acquittal or at least a number of years. You have noted, have you not,
here that Mr. Ruby resents my presence. He says I’m not his attorney
and then asked me to do him favors and this, that, and the other,
and you have noticed he has tremendous faith and confidence in Mr.
Alexander, who obviously is here to, in the event of another trial—and
in the event of Mr. Fowler’s efforts and mine to obtain another trial
for him is successful—he is here to obtain information for the benefit
and use of whatever information he can get to get another death penalty.
Have you an opinion as to what goes on with reference to Ruby’s mental
illness that causes him to put faith in Mr. Alexander and no faith
in me. With reference to the question—is his mental state such that
he can’t aid and assist his lawyers in their efforts to appeal his
sentence and try to get him a new trial, and in his defense, and in the
management of his personal affairs, is he of such mental incompetency
that those things indicate to you that there is something in his mind,
something mentally ill about him that prevents him from realizing what
is best for him in his dealings with the prosecutor and his defense
attorneys, and in connection with managing his affairs and in helping
his defense attorneys in his ability, his capacity, his capabilities
of handling his personal affairs. What is your feeling about that
from what you’ve seen here today and what you’ve known from other
observations of Mr. Ruby?
Dr. BEAVERS. Maybe I can get it in pieces and parts of that—I don’t
know. I think the question of mental competency in the hearing that’s
going to be coming up in the future, at least from what I read in the
newspapers, and I think possibly rather than an off-the-cuff answer,
you may have to sort of settle for a statement that I made concerning
his mental illness, because I don’t do a whole lot of legal work,
and I would be quite cautious in making a statement concerning the
specific legal questions about competency for affairs until I got more
acquainted with this particular statute.
In other words, if you’re asking me a question about his mental status
and the mental illness, maybe I can make some comments.
Mr. TONAHILL. Well, I was trying to do it, but I wanted to give you
a little range and you could pinpoint yourself down to such as the
episodes here today between the relationship of his own lawyers and his
apparent partiality to Mr. Alexander here.
Dr. BEAVERS. This is what I referred to earlier, and I will be glad to
amplify it a bit. On the face of it, it seems to me that as far as an
awareness and appreciation of reality, there was this jeopardy—that
some of the behavior that he had toward Mr. Alexander as far as wanting
him very definitely to be in the room when he made certain damaging
statements concerning the amount of premeditation—this would not be
the actions of a wise and prudent man in my opinion. I think it does
fit more clearly with his previously stated delusional material to
me, that in fact there is a considerable body of people, the district
attorney’s office and district attorneys included, who do feel that
he is a part of a conspiracy, and that in fact either past, present
and/or future actions toward loved ones and toward members of his race
are going to be taken against these people because of this presumed
conspiracy. If this were the case, then it would make extremely good
sense that he would want Mr. Alexander here, and he would want him here
very definitely because he, instead of being wise and prudent in the
defense of his presumed safety and welfare at a future trial, he is
much more concerned with getting the truth out so that a whole host of
terrible things won’t happen.
Now, in reference to his activities toward you [referring to Mr.
Tonahill], the ambivalence we talked about was beautifully illustrated.
He begins by reading you out, by firing you in a sense, and then later
on in the middle of the activities he begins to have a markedly warm
attitude toward you and begins to refer to you as, I think, “Joe,”
once again. A reverse I may have noticed of this, of two or three
changes back and forth, but they were both distinctly and clearly
expressed, which has been my experience and also my opinion based on
working with people who have this kind of a delusional system, that
they show consistently, that is, with somebody who is related to them
very closely—you’re going to catch hell and then you’re going to be
responded to in an effort of bringing you back. In other words, I think
there is a probability that the reasons for relating warmly to the
district attorney’s representative and ambivalently toward you are as I
have stated, and very slightly different from one another.
Mr. TONAHILL. In his present mental state, do you feel he is capable
of conferring with Mr. Fowler and me and Mr. Burleson and aiding and
assisting us in an appellate effort in his behalf in reference to his
mental capacity?
Dr. BEAVERS. This entails two questions—one, his mental state, and two,
how much in fact is involved in aiding you in this appeal.
Now, to the first one, I hope and am reasonably confident of the
opinion I have given of this present mental illness at this time. As
to the latter, I have sort of opinions off-the-cuff from everything
that he needs to be pretty savvy and help you out, to the fact that it
doesn’t make any difference at all as to whether he can talk or not in
terms of an appeal, so I don’t know, because I don’t know No. 2.
Mr. TONAHILL. You and Dr. Holbrook, Dr. John Holbrook, who has examined
him, and Dr. Stubblefield who has examined him, and Dr. West who has
examined him, all four psychiatrists and outstanding men——
Dr. BEAVERS. And Dr. Tanay.
Mr. TONAHILL. And Dr. Tanay—five. Is it uniform agreement among
you five gentlemen that Jack Ruby is mentally ill and suffers with
psychotic delusions?
Dr. BEAVERS. The last time I talked to the other four gentlemen you
have just mentioned, their opinion was the same as my own. I couldn’t
state if anybody changed their mind. Dr. Tanay, following his visit
here, and I had lunch together and discussed the case. At the time
that we talked to the judge, Dr. Stubblefield and I, and then some 2
weeks later, shared our views, and they were in reasonably consistent
agreement. There was no disparity to speak of. Dr. West, I talked to by
telephone about 2 weeks ago, I believe.
Do you remember when that was, Mr. Fowler?
Mr. FOWLER. I think perhaps that would be a month ago, Dr. Beavers, or
somewhere thereabouts.
Dr. BEAVERS. Well, it was after I came back from vacation. At any rate,
between 2 weeks and a month ago, I believe, and his view was that this
man was mentally ill, and further than that, that he was pretty much as
I have described him here.
Mr. TONAHILL. And there have been instances where he rammed his head
into the wall and then tried to get his finger up in the light socket,
and then tried to rip the seam out of his trousers to kill himself, you
felt he was suicidal and should be protected from that effort, and all
of you agreed on that, I believe?
Dr. BEAVERS. Yes. It really wasn’t based on those actions as much as,
I think, the depression that I saw initially, which has cleared up
somewhat as he has gotten more delusionary.
Mr. TONAHILL. You all felt that he should be out of jail and in a
mental hospital where he could get adequate mental care and mental
treatment, from psychiatric care and therapy medications?
Dr. BEAVERS. Yes; I thought this and this was the recommendation of the
other doctors that saw him.
Mr. TONAHILL. That would be Dr. Stubblefield, Dr. Holbrook, Dr. West,
and Dr. Tanay?
Dr. BEAVERS. I’m not sure about Dr. Tanay. I don’t know that I heard
him state that specific thing. I do know that the recommendation of Dr.
Holbrook and Dr. Stubblefield and myself, and further that Dr. West,
made the same recommendation. I do feel that we had two problems. One
was security as well as medical care. I feel like maybe I was perhaps
a little bit more concerned about this than maybe some of the other
specialists; I don’t know. This just happened to be my own view, that
I was not only concerned about this man, hopefully finding a place for
hospitalization, but that it would have to be a place where he had
adequate security from without as well as any idea of suicide.
Mr. TONAHILL. Is there anything unusual about a person who is mentally
ill and of unsound mind, still possessing keen memory faculties and
being able to recall things accurately and clearly as well as being
able to give responsive answers and to be in touch with reality?
Dr. BEAVERS. Oh, I would say that many people of unsound mind are
deteriorated enough that they do not have adequate memory. Early
in the course of many mental illnesses a lot of the faculties,
including memory, are preserved, so that this in itself I don’t think
would—because he has an apparently good memory would not mean that he
is of sound mind.
Mr. TONAHILL. That’s what I mean—that there’s nothing unusual about the
fact that he could still be of unsound mind and still have good recall
and good response to the questions asked by the polygraph operator?
Dr. BEAVERS. I’m a little hung up on the term “unusual,” because to
me, this is a statistical matter when you put it in that phrase, and
then you would be talking about what percentage of people do and what
percentage of people don’t.
Mr. TONAHILL. I don’t mean to do that.
I meant to ask you specifically, can Jack Ruby be of unsound mind,
not know right from wrong, appreciate the nature and quality of his
actions, and still have a keen memory, a good memory, and give clear
response to questions that appear to place him in touch with reality?
Dr. BEAVERS. In my opinion this is possible for a person.
Mr. TONAHILL. Is it reasonably probable from the standpoint of medical
certainty in your profession?
Dr. BEAVERS. I think so. You have included a question that I find it
very difficult to answer—this business of right and wrong.
Mr. TONAHILL. Yes.
Dr. BEAVERS. I stated my opinion to the Dallas Criminal Bar Association
concerning this particular phraseology, and you asked it inclusive, in
terms of several things?
Mr. TONAHILL. Well, with Mr. Alexander’s help, we’re going to eliminate
that from the criminal test for insanity in criminal law in Texas.
I believe that’s all, unless Mr. Fowler has something.
Mr. FOWLER. Let me ask one thing, Dr. Beavers.
I believe that you do have a written report that you have submitted to
the court, is that correct?
Dr. BEAVERS. Yes, sir. Now, I submitted a written report about the
first evaluation, not to the court but to Mr. Burleson, who requested
my services on behalf of family.
I then sent a shorter report, which included the major points and the
recommendations, to the attorneys, to the judge, to Sheriff Decker, and
I believe that’s all.
Now, I assume, and I think it’s the case that probably the defense
attorneys passed the report on to the judge, but I did not send it
myself.
Mr. FOWLER. In any of these reports, you have no objection to making
them available to this Commission?
Dr. BEAVERS. Oh, no.
Mr. FOWLER. If they are requested?
Dr. BEAVERS. If the rights of the patient and the defense attorneys are
in agreement—if the rights of the patient are maintained—no, I have no
objection.
Mr. TONAHILL. I think it would be nice, if you would, let him have
copies of all the reports you have written with respect to his illness,
and they would not involve any jeopardy of Mr. Ruby’s rights at all, if
you would mail them to Mr. Specter.
Dr. BEAVERS. Would you like to have them?
Mr. SPECTER. The Commission would be glad to receive any reports you
have or any other supplemental information that you may wish to provide.
Dr. BEAVERS. I’ll be happy to.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Alexander, do you have a question?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Just one or two questions.
Do you recognize that late counsel for the defense, Mr. Fowler, did not
participate in the Jack Ruby trial and is not as aware of the facts
brought out in the investigation as perhaps I, who was in on it at the
first, or Mr. Tonahill, who was in on the trial? You appreciate that,
do you not?
Dr. BEAVERS. You are saying that——
Mr. ALEXANDER. That Mr. Fowler got in so late on this thing that he
probably doesn’t know—that he is not as aware of the facts of the case
as I am?
Dr. BEAVERS. I don’t know how I would know that. I know when he came
in, but how aware of the facts he is, I don’t know that. How would I
know that?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Did it appear to you that Ruby was looking to me for aid
in framing some of these questions because of my peculiar knowledge of
the case, in that I was in on it from the moment of the assassination
of the President?
Dr. BEAVERS. I noticed that he did look to you in terms of getting some
sort of support or information or possibly framing questions.
Mr. ALEXANDER. And you see nothing unusual in that, considering the
fact that I am probably the one person that has possession of the most
facts?
Dr. BEAVERS. I think I have already covered what I felt was probable,
as far as what was going on with Mr. Ruby as to how he behaved here.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Did you feel that he wanted me particularly to know the
truth about certain areas or at least the truth as he represented it?
Dr. BEAVERS. Yes, sir.
Mr. ALEXANDER. You did not feel that I took advantage of him in any way
here today, do you?
Dr. BEAVERS. No, I thought you were extremely gentlemanly and
pleasantly helpful.
Mr. TONAHILL. I am not making that comment.
Mr. FOWLER. You have been the most cordial since we have been in this,
Bill.
Let me make one other statement—this is relevant.
Are you through, Bill?
Mr. ALEXANDER. Yes, sir.
Mr. FOWLER. I wish to make this statement for the record that at
some time during the course of this interrogation and hearing, that
I was called by Mr. Bill Decker, stating that a telephone call, long
distance, had been made to him. I answered the phone and Mr. Earl Ruby
and Mr. Sol Dann were on the phone speaking from Detroit. They wanted
to know what was going on and who had authorized this hearing, and why
I came down and why Mr. Tonahill was here, and why we did not stop the
hearing.
I tried to the best of my ability to explain to him that I had talked
with Jack and has also explained to the Commission that we were of the
opinion that Mr. Ruby had certain rights that might be violated here,
but that this was entirely the wishes and demands of Jack Ruby himself,
and these matters had been set up prior to my entrance into the case
and prior to the entrance of Mr. Dann, and that I could not control
them.
I was informed by Mr. Dann at that time that it was his intention
to immediately contact the Warren Commission in Washington and file
a criminal case, a case of assault and battery, against all parties
conducting this hearing, including myself and Mr. Tonahill. At this
point I was summarily fired, together with Mr. Tonahill, and I feel
that this matter of course is something that Mr. Dann is not aware of,
that all of this that has taken place here today—I think that we have
tried to protect the rights of Jack Ruby, and I put this in to merely
show that the call was made, and if any of you gentlemen have fear of
reprisal or for whatever purpose it might be, and that I am sure that
something further will be made of it.
Again, I wish to state this that in my opinion, whether we are still
employed in the case, and I have not been fired by Jack Ruby, that we
feel absolutely that his rights have been protected.
Mr. ALEXANDER. His brother Earl has not fired you either.
Mr. SPECTER. That concludes the proceedings. Thank you all very much.
Mr. ALEXANDER. Just one more thing.
I myself will make no statement to anybody outside this room about
anything, and let me make the suggestion that whatever statement is
made, is made by Mr. Specter, if you want to agree on that.
Mr. TONAHILL. In fact I think that if Mr. Specter is going to give this
statement, that if he tells them that a polygraph has been taken, I
don’t think any of the questions and answers should be given out.
Mr. FOWLER. No; I very definitely and specifically request that these
matters that have been gone into here today be for the Commission and
the Commission only. It is our wish.
Mr. SPECTER. That will be done. The Commission heretofore has made no
public statement of content to any extent. It has been the practice of
the Commission to announce only what witnesses have been heard, and
a very general statement of the witness’ status. In fact, Mr. Ruby
was insistent that there be a statement made in terms of his request
and his cooperation, and that had been discussed before as being the
appropriate limit of such a statement. It’s my view that that should be
followed up on, but no details of any sort stated as to his responses
or anything else that transpired in this proceeding today.
Mr. TONAHILL. Yes; that he cooperated to the best of his ability.
Dr. BEAVERS. Any questions that are asked me, I will refer to Mr. Arlen
Specter.
Mr. SPECTER. Very fine, Dr. Beavers.
Thank you very much. This will conclude these proceedings.
Proceedings concluded at 10 p.m.
TESTIMONY OF BELL P. HERNDON
The testimony of Bell P. Herndon was taken at 2:05 p.m., on July 28,
1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Arlen
Specter, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that this is a deposition proceeding
of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.
Present today is Mr. Bell P. Herndon, a special agent of the Federal
Bureau of Investigation, who has been asked to testify concerning the
results of the polygraph examination administered to Jack Ruby in
Dallas, Tex., on July 18, 1964.
With that preliminary statement of purpose, would you rise, please, Mr.
Herndon, and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this
deposition proceeding before the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy will be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. HERNDON. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Mr. HERNDON. My name is Bell P. Herndon.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your profession or occupation?
Mr. HERNDON. I am a special agent of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation.
Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been so occupied?
Mr. HERNDON. I have been employed as a special agent going on 14 years.
Mr. SPECTER. What specialty, if any, do you have with the Federal
Bureau of Investigation?
Mr. HERNDON. I am presently the polygraph supervisor and polygraph
examiner assigned to the FBI laboratory, Washington, D.C.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background,
please?
Mr. HERNDON. I received a bachelor of science degree from St. Lawrence
University in 1947.
I have been in the FBI since 1951 and have been employed as a special
agent primarily in field investigator work for approximately 10 years.
The past 4 years I have been fully assigned to the laboratory in the
capacity of a polygraph supervisor.
Mr. SPECTER. What specialized training, if any, do you receive in order
to qualify for being a polygraph operator?
Mr. HERNDON. Upon assignment to the FBI laboratory I underwent
an intensive 6-months training program under a doctor, Ph. D. in
psychology, who was a special agent polygraph examiner assigned to the
New York office.
I also received considerable training from other special agents in the
FBI laboratory who had graduate work in physiology and law.
After completion of 6 months’ intensive training, I was declared
qualified to handle polygraph examinations for the Federal Bureau of
Investigation.
Mr. SPECTER. And approximately how many polygraphic examinations
have you conducted during your service with the Federal Bureau of
Investigation?
Mr. HERNDON. I have either given, supervised, or reviewed several
thousand polygraph examinations.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly just what the polygraph machine
is, and how it functions?
Mr. HERNDON. The polygraph instrument, of course, is commonly known
to the public as the lie detector. In fact it is not such a device.
The polygraph is simply an instrument which is designed to record
certain physiological responses under stimuli in a carefully controlled
interrogation. These physiological responses may accompany and indicate
deception. It is used primarily as an investigative aid by the Federal
Bureau of Investigation.
Mr. SPECTER. From what does the machine derive its name “polygraph”?
Mr. HERNDON. The name polygraph is derived from the Greek derivative,
poly meaning many, graph meaning writings and the actual polygraph
chart will portray several writings indicating physiological responses
of the examinee.
Mr. SPECTER. How many writings are there specifically which are made by
the polygraph instrument?
Mr. HERNDON. On the current polygraph used throughout the field the
instrument records three different physiological responses.
Mr. SPECTER. And would you identify those three physiological
responses, please?
Mr. HERNDON. The first physiological response recorded on the polygraph
pertains to the pneumograph tracing, pneumo pertains to the respiratory
pattern of an individual. In other words, it records the inhalation and
exhalation tracings of the person as he is normally breathing. It also
records what we call the respiratory ratio, the ratio of the inhalation
stroke to the exhalation stroke.
The second component utilized in the polygraph technique today is
generally called the psychogalvanic skin response.
Mr. SPECTER. Spell that, please.
Mr. HERNDON. Actually, it is referred to as the galvanic skin response,
galvanic. This particular response is obtained by electrodes placed on
the examinee’s hands or fingers, a small minute amount of electrical
current is passed through the skin, and the galvanometer will record
the minute changes in the electrical skin resistance of the skin or the
electrodermal response.
The third component utilized in polygraph technique is the cardiograph.
This particular component measures the relative blood pressure changes
and also the changes in the heart rate or pulse beat. The tracing is
obtained by a pneumatic cuff being placed on the arm, usually the
left arm, a certain amount of pressure applied so that the mean blood
pressure can be obtained and the tracing is recorded on a moving sheet
of chart paper.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly the development of the polygraph
instrument, please?
Mr. HERNDON. Over the years psychologists and physiologists have been
aware of the fact that many people seem to respond physiologically
under emotional stress, one, of course, being under a stress of a
deception.
The more serious lie a person tells, quite frequently he is likely to
have a physiological response. Over the years people who have dealt
with interrogation techniques have frequently noticed that when a
person is deceiving, that they visibly respond emotionally. In other
words, they may not look a person right in the eye.
There may be a choking up of the throat. They may become flushed in the
face. Based on this general common sense observation, law enforcement
individuals who had psychological and physiological training decided in
about 1920 that if they could obtain an instrument to record certain
physiological, changes with regard to suspects in criminal cases, they
might be in a better position to perhaps determine whether or not the
person has been telling the truth.
They developed an instrument which was eventually called the polygraph
or so-called lie detector.
Through the years it has been used by law enforcement. It is primarily
used, as I said before, as an investigative aid, and it has been
helpful in that it can provide investigative direction to people in the
law enforcement profession.
Mr. SPECTER. What is its level of reliability in indicating patterns of
deception?
Mr. HERNDON. There has been no conclusive scientific objective study in
that regard, and as of today there are no valid statistics with regard
to its actual objective reliability.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your opinion as to its level of reliability in
measuring patterns of deception in a normal person?
Mr. HERNDON. Well, the polygraph, of course, measures certain
physiological responses which have to be interpreted. It must be
clearly understood that the physiological responses that are portrayed
on a polygraph chart can often be caused by things other than
deception, such as fear, anxiety, nervousness, dislike, and many other
of these emotions.
A polygraph examiner has to be extremely skilled and conservative in
his estimation as to whether or not it is deception. I cannot give you
any clear-cut personal opinion as to the validity of the technique with
regard to its percentage of reliability.
Mr. SPECTER. Aside from an opinion as to percentage of reliability,
what is your opinion in a very general way as to the ability of a
well-trained, conservative examiner to detect a pattern of deception in
a normal person under appropriate standards of administration?
Mr. HERNDON. Based on a hypothesis of all factors you mentioned, a
polygraph examiner under ideal conditions can generally interrogate
a person, and if he has been able to obtain what he considers good
control questions, he then may be able to come up with a conclusion
which would indicate whether or not a person is deceiving or not.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you describe what you mean by a control question?
Mr. HERNDON. The control question is the question on which you would
expect the examinee to probably lie, or have some emotional response
which can be used for comparative purposes with regard to the relevant
questions of the interrogation.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you give an example of what you mean by control
question, then?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes, I can.
In a bank embezzlement case, a good control question with an individual
might be, “Have you ever stolen anything in your life that didn’t
belong to you?”
In that regard it is expected the person would probably either hedge or
deceive, and, therefore, the examiner can usually have an indication
of whether or not this person will respond to a deception based on the
examinee’s response to that question.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon, what is the policy of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation on the use of the polygraph examination?
Mr. HERNDON. The FBI uses the polygraph technique purely as an
investigative aid, in very carefully selected cases.
As I have said before, we feel that the polygraph technique is not
sufficiently precise to permit absolute judgments of deception or
truth without qualifications. The polygraph technique has a number of
limitations which must be considered by the examiner. The instrument,
again, I said before, is designed to record under proper stimuli
emotional responses in the form of physiological variations which may
accompany and indicate deception.
Mr. SPECTER. What effect, if any, would there be on a polygraph
examination if the subject were a psychotic depressive with respect to
mental condition?
Mr. HERNDON. In that particular case, the FBI ordinarily would not
render a polygraph examination to any individual in which there was any
indication or evidence that he was psychotic.
Mr. SPECTER. What validity would a polygraph examination have on a
person who was a psychotic depressive with respect to the mental
condition?
Mr. HERNDON. The examination would be completely inconclusive or
invalid in view of the fact that a psychotic individual is divorced
from reality, and the tracings on his polygrams could not be logically
interpreted.
Mr. SPECTER. Then is it necessary that a person be in touch with
reality and understand the nature of the questions and answers in order
for a polygraph examination to have any validity?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes, it is.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have occasion to conduct a polygraph examination
on Jack Ruby?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes, I did, on July 18, 1964.
Mr. SPECTER. And at whose request was that polygraph examination
conducted?
Mr. HERNDON. The examination of Jack Ruby was conducted at the specific
request of the President’s Commission.
It is my understanding that Mr. Ruby specifically requested such a
polygraph examination to the Commission in a prior interview he had
with the Chief Justice.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you present during the course of the entire session
when Mr. Ruby was questioned, both before, during and after the actual
administration of the polygraph examination?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes, I was.
Mr. SPECTER. And before the test was actually administered, did
anyone ask Mr. Ruby whether he wished to have a polygraph examination
conducted on him?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes. I believe Mr. Ruby was asked that question by the
Commission. I am not sure of whether the defense attorney specifically
asked him whether or not he wanted to take it, but I know that they
were definitely against him taking the polygraph examination.
In my initial discussion with Mr. Ruby, I again also asked him to
sign a voluntary waiver of consent to insure that he was freely and
voluntarily taking the polygraph examination.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was Mr. Ruby’s response on the question of
whether he wanted to take the polygraph examination?
Mr. HERNDON. He clearly implied that he desired to proceed and take the
polygraph examination.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it an implication or was it a direct statement on his
part that he wanted the examination?
Mr. HERNDON. It was a direct statement, and he signed the waiver of
consent.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was the polygraph examination conducted?
Mr. HERNDON. The polygraph examination of Jack Ruby was conducted in
one of the rooms in the Dallas county jail.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was present at the time the examination was conducted?
Mr. HERNDON. Present during the examination were Mr. Arlen Specter of
the President’s Commission, myself, representing the FBI, Special Agent
W. James Wood, of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Dallas, Tex.,
office, Mr. Ruby’s attorneys were present, one being chief counsel Mr.
Clayton Fowler, another attorney was present by the name of Mr. Joe
Tonahill. Also present during the examination was a representative of
the Dallas district attorney’s office, a Mr. William Alexander.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he present during the time of the examination or
during the preliminary discussion on questions only?
Mr. HERNDON. He was present during the entire examination except for
that phase in which Mr. Ruby was actually responding to my questions
while he was actually on the instrument.
Mr. SPECTER. And who else was present?
Mr. HERNDON. Also present during the entire polygraph proceedings was
a Dr. William Beavers, I believe, of Dallas, Tex., and a chief jailer,
I believe his name was E. L. Holman. There was a court reporter, Odell
Oliver, also present during the proceedings.
Also present during the preliminaries of the proceedings was a
gentleman from the Dallas sheriff’s office by the name of Mr. Sweat,
who indicated that he was a polygraph examiner.
Mr. SPECTER. Was a request made that he not be present during the
course of the examination?
Mr. HERNDON. After consultation with Mr. Specter and myself, I believe
Mr. Specter made arrangement with the sheriff, Mr. Decker, that Mr.
Sweat not be present during the polygraph examination and further
proceedings.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the physical arrangement of the room with
respect to Mr. Ruby’s positioning during the time that the polygraph
examination was actually administered?
Mr. HERNDON. I attempted to arrange Mr. Ruby in such a position
that there would be a minimum of distraction and disturbance to him
during the actual polygraph examination. He was placed rather closely
against a wall where there were no pictures or no distracting marks
or implementations on the wall. I also tried to place him in such a
position so that he could not readily see anyone else who was in the
room during the proceedings.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you successful in placing him in a position where he
could not see anyone else while the test was being administered?
Mr. HERNDON. I believe he was in a position that only his secondary
vision from the sides would possibly give him the impression that
somebody was in the room.
Mr. SPECTER. What effect, if any, did the presence of the other people
in the room have on the administration of the test, in your opinion?
Mr. HERNDON. Normally during a polygraph examination the only ones
in the room are the examinee and the examiner, and during Bureau
proceedings we usually have another agent in the room out of sight
that takes notes. It is considered an undesirable factor to have many
people present in the room during a polygraph examination, particularly
if these people are involved in any way in the case, such as the
defendant’s attorney or someone who has a personal and keen knowledge
in the proceedings. In this particular instance, it appeared to me that
Mr. Ruby divorced the presence of these people from his mind during his
response to the questions. However, it should be considered a factor
which is one that could tend to negate a valid conclusion with regard
to chart interpretation.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you taken that factor, then, into account in your
evaluation of chart interpretation?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I have.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Herndon, did you hear the testimony of Dr. William
Beavers which was taken immediately following the administration of the
polygraph examination commencing at 9:10 p.m., on July 18, 1964?
Mr. HERNDON. I heard his testimony.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear him testify in a conclusory fashion that:
“These symptoms,” referring to symptoms which he had described, “plus
the depression which was evident caused me to diagnose a psychotic
depressive reaction”? Did you hear him make that diagnosis?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I did.
Mr. SPECTER. If that diagnosis is accurate, would there be any validity
in a polygraph examination of Mr. Ruby?
Mr. HERNDON. There would be no validity to the polygraph examination,
and no significance should be placed upon the polygraph charts.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you further hear Dr. Beavers testify as follows:
“In the greater proportion of the time that he,” referring to Ruby,
“answered the questions, I felt that he was aware of the questions and
that he understood them, and that he was giving answers based on an
appreciation of reality.”
Mr. HERNDON. I heard him so testify.
Mr. SPECTER. If Mr. Ruby’s mental condition was accurately
characterized in that latter statement, then would the polygraph
examination have validity in accordance with the limitations which you
heretofore described?
Mr. HERNDON. Well, based on the hypothesis that Ruby was mentally
competent and sound, the charts could be interpreted, and if those
conditions are fact, the charts could be interpreted to indicate that
there was no area of deception present with regard to his response to
the relevant questions during the polygraph examination. However, I
have no specific information to my knowledge which would resolve the
hypothesis or the suggestion made by Dr. Beavers that Ruby was in fact
rational and fully competent at that time, and, therefore, I would
still have to render an inconclusive opinion with regard to the charts.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say in your last answer if Ruby was competent
or sane, by that do you mean the characteristics which Dr. Beavers
described, stated specifically, that he understood the questions and
the answers, that he was giving answers based on appreciation of
reality?
Mr. HERNDON. I qualified my answer to the previous question because of
the fact, if you will recall, Dr. Beavers also testified later that it
is entirely possible for a person who is psychotic to still appear to
be rational and to be fully aware of reality. This particular testimony
is with regard to specific questions presented to Dr. Beavers by Mr.
Tonahill, and it is a known fact that certain psychotics at times can
appear completely rational and appear to be competent.
Mr. SPECTER. The distinction on that, though, would be whether or not
they are, in fact, in touch with reality, understanding the nature of
the questions and answers, or whether they only appear to be in touch
with reality? Would that not be the key distinction that Dr. Beavers is
making in his testimony?
Mr. HERNDON. I am not sure I follow you there, Mr. Specter. Will you
repeat that again?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes. You say that Dr. Beavers said that many psychotics
appear to understand the questions or appear to be in touch with
reality.
Mr. HERNDON. He said it is possible, I believe, that a psychotic could
appear to be rational and have a good memory, but still be a psychotic
individual or psychotic personality.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; but wasn’t the key distinction that Dr. Beavers was
making was whether or not, in fact, the individual did understand the
questions as opposed to whether he appeared to understand the questions?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I gather from Dr. Beavers’ testimony that in this
particular instance during this particular phase of the examination
with regard to two exceptions which he mentions, Ruby appeared to be
fully aware of the intent and the meaning of the question and was
rational in his reply.
Mr. SPECTER. But didn’t he go beyond that, Mr. Herndon, that is he did
not use the qualifying term of Mr. Ruby’s appearing to be in touch
with reality, but said, and I will make the portion of the transcript
available to you: “I felt that he was aware of the questions and
that he understood them, and that he was giving answers based on an
appreciation of reality.”
Now, you have read that along with me. The distinction I am making here
is that Dr. Beavers doesn’t say here that Mr. Ruby appears to be in
touch with reality, but that he, in fact, is, according to Dr. Beavers’
conclusion, during the course of this examination, except for two areas
which I am going to come to, that Ruby was, in fact, in touch with
reality and did understand the nature of the questions and answers.
Mr. HERNDON. I recall he did specifically make that comment.
Mr. SPECTER. So that whatever ultimate conclusions flow from whether
Ruby was psychotic or whether he was in touch with reality are
beyond your ken as a polygraph examiner? You merely rely on what the
psychiatrist says in formulating your conclusions; is that not so?
Mr. HERNDON. That is correct, Mr. Specter. I would defer to
psychiatrists, of course, with regard to whether or not a person is
mentally competent or not.
Mr. SPECTER. So that if Mr. Ruby was psychotic, then the polygraph
examination would have no validity?
Mr. HERNDON. That is correct, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And if, on the other hand, Mr. Ruby was competent and
in touch with reality, understanding the nature of the questions and
the content of his answers, then the polygraph examination would have
validity?
Mr. HERNDON. Under that theory, then the polygraph examination could
be interpreted, and there would be a conclusion rendered, still
considering, of course, all the limitations of the polygraph technique,
of course.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, what two areas of questions did Dr. Beavers exclude
in the portion of his answer which you and I just read together?
Mr. HERNDON. Dr. Beavers made specific reference to two questions
which were originally drafted by himself, Dr. Beavers. These questions
were in regard to whether or not Ruby believed his family were harmed
or have been harmed, whether or not his family have been harmed for
what he did, and the other question was in regard to whether or not he
believed his chief counsel, Mr. Fowler, was in danger for defending
him, Ruby, that is.
Mr. SPECTER. And as the record will show, those were the two questions
that Dr. Beavers referred to where he felt Ruby was out of touch with
reality when he answered them during the course of the polygraph
examination?
Mr. HERNDON. That is correct.
Mr. SPECTER. And focusing for just a moment on those two questions
before we proceed to your conclusions, what answer did Mr. Ruby give to
the question as to whether his family had been harmed as a result of
what he did?
Mr. HERNDON. During the actual polygraph examination, when that
question was asked, Mr. Ruby failed to respond either yes or no.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any portion of the overall examination which
precedes the time when the machine is activated and the needles are
operating, so to speak?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes. During the pretest interview, the actual questions
are carefully discussed with the examinee, in this case Mr. Ruby, so
that he fully understands the intent and the meaning of the questions.
Mr. SPECTER. And is that a normal part of a polygraph examination?
Mr. HERNDON. That is a standard procedure in a polygraph interrogation
technique.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is the purpose for that?
Mr. HERNDON. The purpose of that primarily is to be sure that the
examinee fully understands the question and that there are no problems
of surprise or semantics. It also psychologically conditions the
subject in that he commits himself prior to the test and will be
conditioned to know that the question will be asked again and he will
have to make a decision as to how he is going to answer it, and whether
or not he is going to attempt to deceive.
Mr. SPECTER. And what answer did Mr. Ruby give to the question about
whether his family had been harmed as a result of what he did during
the course of the preliminary discussion session?
Mr. HERNDON. To be sure; could we just check the transcript on that? I
believe he did say yes, with regard to that question.
Mr. SPECTER. Certainly. Please do check the transcript, or your notes,
either way which would be most expeditious. (Pause.) Have you now had
an opportunity to check the transcript on that last answer, Mr. Herndon?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I have reviewed the transcript, and with regard to
both those questions Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
Mr. SPECTER. During which portion of the examination?
Mr. HERNDON. This was during the pretest interview.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say he gave “yes” answers to both questions,
you mean the question about “did he think his family had been harmed
as a result of what he did,” and also the question about “whether
his defense counsel, Mr. Clayton Fowler, was in danger as a result of
representing Mr. Ruby”?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; in both instances he volunteered yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, Mr. Herndon, based on the hypothesis or assumption
that Mr. Ruby was in touch with reality, and understood the nature of
the questions, and the quality of his answers, what opinion did you
formulate, if any, as to patterns of deceptiveness on the relevant
questions during the polygraph examination?
Mr. HERNDON. Based on the hypothesis that you just gave, Mr. Specter,
a review of the polygraph charts would indicate to me, if in fact
Ruby was mentally competent and sane, that there was no indication of
deception with regard to the specific relevant pertinent questions of
this investigation.
Mr. SPECTER. At this time, Mr. Herndon, I would like to take up the
first series of questions and answers, and ask you to state for the
record what they were and what graph readings you took by way of
elaborating upon the conclusion which you just gave.
For the record I shall mark that first chart as Herndon Deposition
Exhibit No. 1.
(The document referred to was marked Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 1
for identification.)
Mr. HERNDON. As I review the first polygraph chart I notice that I made
a notation at 1 p.m., that Ruby’s attorneys agreed to let Mr. Ruby
take the test. I actually started my adjustments of the instruments
on Mr. Ruby at 3 p.m. In this regard, I believe it proper to state
that I was using a Stoelting deceptograph model 22500 which utilizes
three components, the pneumograph, the galvanic skin response, and
the cardiograph. Also utilized during the examination was a Stoelting
polygraph subject chair.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you describe the chair used during the course of this
examination, please?
Mr. HERNDON. The polygraph subject chair is so designed to adjust the
level of the arms and to give complete and full support to the arms.
This is necessary to provide a minimum of restriction or pressure on
both of the arms of the examinee. This is desirable in order to obtain
the best possible tracing with regard to a person’s relative blood
pressure changes and relative changes in the heart rate. It is also
desirable to obtain the best possible tracing of the electrodermal
responses or the galvanic skin responses. The chair is also constructed
so that the person will generally refrain from slouching or crossing
his legs during the examination, both of which are undesirable.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you now then proceed to testify about the recordings
on the chart?
Mr. HERNDON. I also notice with regard to the room that the lighting in
the room was incandescent and not fluorescent, this possibly being a
factor in the tracings with regard to the galvanic skin response. The
incandescent lighting is much preferable, and, therefore, I feel that
there was no outside electrical disturbance with regard to the tracing
of the GSR, galvanic skin response.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you elaborate just a little more on why you think
the lighting would have an effect on the galvanic skin response testing
device?
Mr. HERNDON. I made a notation of this fact in my notes, in view of the
fact that it has been evident in the past that fluorescent lighting at
times has interfered with proper tracings with regard to the galvanic
skin response.
Mr. SPECTER. And fluorescent lighting was present here?
Mr. HERNDON. No, fluorescent lighting was not present here, and the
desirable or preferable incandescent lighting was present.
Mr. SPECTER. So that that would have a beneficial effect on eliminating
a potential source of interference?
Mr. HERNDON. Not beneficial, but it would not necessarily hinder the
tracing.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine.
Proceed.
Mr. HERNDON. During my initial adjustments of Mr. Ruby to the
polygraph, I noticed that he had a breathing rate of approximately 21
cycles per minute, which is well within normal respiratory patterns.
I noticed that his heart rate was approximately 78 beats per minute,
which is well within normal heart rate of individuals, and that
there appeared to be no physical problems with regard to obtaining a
satisfactory cardiogram, which monitors the cardiovascular system.
During series 1, two relevant questions were asked which were pertinent
to the investigation.
Question No. 4, in which Ruby was asked, “Did you know Oswald before
November 22, 1963?”
Mr. SPECTER. And what was his response to that question?
Mr. HERNDON. To that question he responded, “No,” and an interpretation
of the charts based on the premise that Ruby was mentally sound and
competent would fail to indicate any physiological response which would
be suggestive of deception.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is the basis for your conclusion that there was
no deceptive response elicited to that question?
Mr. HERNDON. This conclusion is actually based on my interpretation and
study of the overall charts which are still to come up. Actually, in
series 1, I noticed, however, that Mr. Ruby did respond physiologically
to a control type question: “Have you ever been arrested?”
This physiological response was in the form of a rather noticeable rise
in his blood pressure. To this particular question he did answer “Yes,”
and later explained that he had been arrested for dancing after curfew
at his own place.
He indicated by his answer that he was somewhat embarrassed by this.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that for dancing after curfew or for permitting others
to dance after curfew?
Mr. HERNDON. I got the interpretation from his comments that it was
permitting dancing, and him also being possibly involved in the party
after curfew hours. This, to me, does indicate, if in fact Ruby was
mentally competent, that he was capable of displaying emotional
responses on the polygraph, in this instance not necessarily deception,
but some concern, as portrayed by the relative rise in blood pressure.
During series 1 Mr. Ruby was also asked another relevant question,
question No. 6, which was pertinent to the investigation, that question
being: “Did you assist Oswald in the assassination?”
Mr. SPECTER. And what was his answer to that question?
Mr. HERNDON. To that question he responded “No,” and if in fact he was
mentally competent at the time he answered that question, the charts
could be interpreted that there was no physiological response to the
stimulus of the question.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say “could be interpreted,” Mr. Herndon, do you
mean that that was your opinion or your conclusion as to whether there
was a physiological response?
Mr. HERNDON. I wish to qualify my opinion here based on the fact that I
am responding under the hypothesis proposed by you that this chart is
being interpreted, that Ruby is of sound mind, and was rational in his
mental process when responding to this question.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine.
As I understand it, that is your basic hypothesis or assumption in all
of your answers to interpretation?
Mr. HERNDON. Fine, if we will keep that in mind.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes. I think that is fair and I think we have put that on
the record at the start so that whatever you interpret here is based
on the assumption that he was in touch with reality, understood the
questions, and knew what he was answering.
Mr. HERNDON. Correct, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. But the point I was coming to was, you said it “could be
interpreted” that there was no pattern of deception, and my concern was
whether there was any deliberate qualification in your answer on “could
be interpreted” or whether it was your positive interpretation that
assuming he knew what he was talking about and was sane, that there was
no pattern of deception in his negative answer on the question of, “Did
you assist Oswald in the assassination?”
Mr. HERNDON. To answer that question, Mr. Specter, I would have to go
back to my original statement that the polygraph technique is not
considered precise enough to make absolute statements of deception
or nondeception, so, therefore, any time I make any observation it
would be using probably a qualified word such as “appeared to indicate
deception” or “suggestive of deception,” keeping in mind that, of
course, there are many emotional responses that I am not in a position
to evaluate, such as fear of being falsely accused, dislike for the
people in the room, other factors which may tend to negate positive
statements that here in fact this thing is meaning he is not lying.
Mr. SPECTER. On that particular question, were there any indicators at
all that he was deceiving in his answer to question No. 6, to wit: “Did
you assist Oswald in the assassination?”
Mr. HERNDON. Other than a slight impact in the GSR, there was no
noticeable change in his physiological responses to that particular
question.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was the slight impact that you referred to in the
GSR, meaning galvanic skin response?
Mr. HERNDON. The impact here not being significant enough to make any
specific evaluation.
Mr. SPECTER. Then were there any other relevant questions in the first
series?
Mr. HERNDON. There were no other relevant questions in the first series.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything else in the first series which is
significant enough to comment on by way of analysis of the overall
examination?
Mr. HERNDON. No other than to say that the total chart minutes for
series 1 was 2 minutes 25 seconds in duration of time.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any fixed limitation on how long a series can run?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes, it is generally conceded that a person should not
be run on the polygraph beyond perhaps 4 minutes, inasmuch as after
that time the pressure on the arm cuff can become discomforting and
irritating to the examinee.
In view of the fact that there was a question here of possible effect
on Ruby’s health, I attempted to maintain all my questioning within
an approximate 3-minute period to insure no damaging effect on his
physical condition.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any overall limitation on the amount of time that
a person can appropriately take a polygraph examination?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes, there is a limitation. Certainly if a person is
interviewed with polygraph at great length, in due time he is bound to
become desensitized to the technique. In other words, the pressure on
his arm and the technique itself becomes less valid as the increase in
time proceeds.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Ruby ever become desensitized to the technique?
Mr. HERNDON. I believe in the last series of the first session, which
I believe is series 4, Mr. Ruby showed some indications of becoming
fatigued and displayed some tiredness in the charts. Also, I might add
in the latter phase of the examination, in the latter series, there was
some indication that he was approaching this desensitization that I
have mentioned before.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given us all the relevant findings from
series of 1?
Mr. HERNDON. I think so. There might be one other thing I will just
mention here, and that is in question 5 with regard to, “Do you use
the middle name Leon” there were some noticeable changes in the
physiological tracings. However, these were caused by his laughter and
talking in which he later explained that he sometimes used the name,
but other times he doesn’t, and that the name Leon is sentimental to
him. That is the only other noticeable variance in his normal tracing
that I wish to comment on.
Mr. SPECTER. Let us then proceed now to series 2 and mark that Herndon
Deposition Exhibit No. 2, if we may, please.
(The document referred to was marked Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 2
for identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. Now, referring to that chart, what significant findings
were there on that chart?
Mr. HERNDON. The only significant change physiologically during series
No. 2 was in Mr. Ruby’s response to the question, “Have you ever been
known by another name?”, as portrayed by an increase in his blood
pressure. He answered this question with both a yes and a no, and after
the series was completed there was some discussion with regard to the
question. He mentioned that he was uncertain how to answer the question
because he had originally used the name of Jack Rubenstein and that
he had legally changed it at a later date. Other than some variations
in the pneumograph which were caused by his hesitating to answer due
to the length of the questions provided, there is no other significant
physiological change noticed in series 2.
Mr. SPECTER. And what were the relevant questions in series 2?
Mr. HERNDON. The relevant questions in series 2 were No. 3 “Are you now
a member of the Communist Party?” in which there was no significant
physiological change.
Mr. SPECTER. What was his response there?
Mr. HERNDON. He responded “No,” to that question.
On question No. 5, which is considered relevant, he was asked, “Have
you ever been a member of the Communist Party?” He responded “No,” and
there is no significant response recorded. There is an adjustment on my
behalf of the cardiogram tracing.
Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by that, Mr. Herndon?
Mr. HERNDON. Where this arrow is placed, and I brought down the tracing
to a lower level so that I could see if there would be any subsequent
rise.
Mr. SPECTER. And was it a consistent tracing thereafter indicating no
deviation?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes. The cardiogram is interpreted as being consistent,
and no significant change or deviation.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, what other relevant questions were asked in that
series?
Mr. HERNDON. Question 7, “Are you now a member of any group that
advocates the violent overthrow of the U.S. Government?” There is no
significant change in his relative blood pressure, and the only change
significant in his breathing pattern which by chart interpretation was
caused by him hesitating to answer the question due to its length.
Mr. SPECTER. What was his response to that question?
Mr. HERNDON. He responded “No” to question No. 7.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other relevant questions in that group?
Mr. HERNDON. Question No. 8 was relevant. It was, “Have you ever been
a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the U.S.
Government?” Here, again, he responded “No.” There was no significant
change.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you start that again?
Mr. HERNDON. Question No. 8 was “Have you ever been a member of any
group that advocates the violent overthrow of the U.S. Government?”
This is a relatively long question for polygraph technique, and I note
that there was some hesitation in the pneumograph tracing, in view
of the fact he had to wait for the question to be completed before
he could respond. He eventually did respond “No” and there was no
significant change in his physiological tracings. The total chart
minutes, that is the time that he was actually on the polygraph from
the beginning to the end of this particular series, was 2 minutes 30
seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other relevant questions in that group?
Mr. HERNDON. There were no other relevant questions in that group.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other significant findings in that portion
of the test on series No. 2?
Mr. HERNDON. There was a control question “did you ever make a false
official statement” to which he responded “No.” There was a very minor
change in the cardiograph tracing as portrayed by a slight decrease in
the relative blood pressure. However, it is not considered significant
enough to make any additional statements.
Mr. SPECTER. Now you have given us all the relevant findings for series
No. 2; is that correct, Mr. Herndon?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Let us now proceed to the next series and mark the next
series as Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 3.
(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. Would you start off on the third series, Mr. Herndon, by
telling us what were the relevant questions and the responses thereto,
if any?
Mr. HERNDON. During series 3, there were three relevant questions
asked. No. 3: “Between the assassination and the shooting, did anybody
you know tell you they knew Oswald?”
He responded “No,” and there was no significant physiological change
recorded on the polygraph. There is a noticeable change in the
pneumograph pattern. However, this has been interpreted again as being
caused by the relatively long length of this particular question.
Question No. 5 was: “Aside from anything you said to George Senator
on Sunday morning, did you ever tell anyone else that you intended to
shoot Oswald?” In comparison to his overall chart, there is nothing
of particular significance in his physiological responses to this
question, when he responded “No” to question 5.
Question No. 8 was: “Did you shoot Oswald in order to silence him?”
This again being a relevant question. He responded “No.” There was no
significant deviation in his physiological responses to this question.
During series 3 he was asked two control-type questions in which he
did respond significantly with regard to the physiological tracings.
Question No. 4 was asked: “Are you married?” Mr. Ruby responded “No.”
An interpretation of his polygrams reveal a rather significant rise in
his relative blood pressure. He also produced a rather vivid impact on
the GSR tracings, and there was noticeable staircase suppression in
his pneumograph pattern. This question was later discussed with Mr.
Ruby, and he said that he was thinking of a young girl by the name of
Alice Nichols who he had previously considered marrying. He admitted
that he felt something “working on him,” with regard to this particular
question. An analysis of this question would indicate that Ruby did
emotionally respond to the stimulus of the question “Are you married,”
and his thoughts of a former sweetheart. This does not indicate that
there was any deception of course, but does suggest Mr. Ruby does
respond physiologically to certain emotions that he feels when he
hears the questions and decides how to answer them. In a sense this is
a control-type question. Also in this series, in question No. 7, Mr.
Ruby was asked: “While in the service did you receive any disciplinary
action?” There is a noticeable rise in his blood pressure after he
responded “No.” This question had been discussed rather thoroughly with
him, and after the series was run, he admitted that he had been called
in before his commanding officer regarding a brawl he had while in the
military service. He also commented: “Evidently you are getting a good
reading.” This could be interpreted as a deception pattern inasmuch as
in his mind he realized he had been in some trouble in the military
service; however, did not want to truthfully answer the question as he
considered it insignificant.
However, he did admit that he had been in some trouble with his
commanding officer regarding fighting. This is considered a control
question, and its response is greater than his response to the previous
relevant question which I had related.
Mr. SPECTER. Would there be any difference in psychological reactions,
Mr. Herndon, on a pattern of deception which the subject considered
insignificant as opposed to a pattern of deception which the subject
considered significant?
Mr. HERNDON. Generally the concept of the polygraph technique is that
we are attempting to find out what a man’s physiological responses
will be in any area where he is attempting to deceive. The content of
the actual deception is not particularly important. We want to get a
tracing of where he is attempting to deceive. Now under a situation
such as Mr. Ruby was in here, it is more probable that he is more
concerned about these relevant questions than these irrelevant or
control-type questions. In other words, the relevant questions have
more to do with his well-being or what he is trying to prove to the
Commission. However, the chart here still shows that he attempted to
deceive with regard to what he considered insignificant, but it tends
to indicate to me that he will respond to a practice of deception, if
that answers your question.
Mr. SPECTER. What I am driving at here is whether there is any gage in
whether he considers it insignificant or significant in the reading.
Stated differently, there would be a response even though he might
consider a question to be insignificant.
Mr. HERNDON. That is right. If there is an attempt on his part to
practice deception, if he again, as I say, is competent and reasoning
rationally. In general practice of polygraph work, generally speaking
the control questions are of lesser severity than the actual pertinent
questions, but in those cases where the person appears to be telling
the truth, we find that they will respond more to the control questions
than the critical question, even though the critical question has more
potency and is more severe with regard to his well-being.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other significant findings on that chart?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes. Mr. Ruby also responded significantly in a
physiological sense with regard to question 9: “Have you ever served
time in jail?” He failed to actually respond yes or no. However, there
was a decrease in his blood pressure, a moderate impact in the GSR, and
a change in the baseline of his pneumograph tracing. The fact that he
actually failed to say yes or no precludes my interpretation of whether
or not this is an indication of deception, but it does indicate that
Ruby did experience a physiological variation from his normal pattern
with regard to this question which is of a control-type nature.
Mr. SPECTER. Does that complete then the relevant findings on that
chart?
Mr. HERNDON. That concludes series No. 3. It might be worthwhile to
record that the total chart minutes on this particular series was 2
minutes 45 seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. Let us then mark the next series, which is series 3a, as
Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 4.
(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. Would you start there on series 3a with the relevant
questions, the responses and your evaluation of any significant
psychological deviation, please?
Mr. HERNDON. This particular series 3a was what would be called a
modified peak of tension series. Ruby was carefully instructed prior
to the series that four relevant questions were going to be asked in a
consecutive order.
Question No. 3: “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Friday night?”
He responded “No.”
Question No. 4: “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald on Saturday
morning?” He responded “No.”
Question No. 5: “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald Saturday night?”
He responded “No.”
Question No. 6: “Did you first decide to shoot Oswald Sunday morning?”
He responded “Yes.”
These are the only relevant questions in this series. A review of
the chart with regard to his responses in this series reveals that
Ruby’s blood pressure continually rose from the question No. 3 until
it reached a peak just as question No. 6 was asked. In addition it
was noted that there was a rather noticeable change in his breathing
pattern as question No. 6 was approached. There is a slight impact in
the GSR tracing as question No. 6 is approached. This would mean to me
in interpreting the chart that Ruby reached a peak of tension as the
question No. 6 was about to be asked in which he responded “Yes” to
“Did you first decide to shoot Oswald Sunday morning?” This particular
type of series cannot be interpreted with regard to whether or not
there was any deception, but it does indicate that Ruby built up a
physiological peak of tension to the time of Sunday morning with regard
to his decision of shooting Oswald.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there any correlation between the building up of a peak
of tension and the accurate answer to the series?
Mr. HERNDON. In normal usage of polygraph technique where a peak of
tension is used, if the series is effective, the party will usually
respond to a particular item which happens to be the most pertinent
with regard to the offense. In this case it appears that Ruby projected
his entire thoughts and built up a physiological peak of tension to the
point of Sunday morning.
Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other significant readings on Exhibit No. 4?
Mr. HERNDON. There is no other significant reading on series 4. The
total chart minutes was 2 minutes.
Mr. SPECTER. Let’s move on then to series No. 4 and we will mark that
as Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 5.
(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 5 was marked for identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. I will ask you to start on that one, Mr. Herndon, by
giving us the relevant questions and answers to those relevant
questions and the responses, if any?
Mr. HERNDON. I believe this is series No. 4.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; series No. 4, and we have marked it as Exhibit No. 5.
We are one out of number now since we have used an “A” series.
Mr. HERNDON. In series No. 4, Mr. Ruby was asked four relevant
questions.
Question No. 2: “Were you on the sidewalk at the time Lieutenant
Pierce’s car stopped on the ramp exit?” He responded “Yes.”
Question No. 4: “Did you enter the jail by walking through the
alleyway?” Mr. Ruby responded “No.”
Question No. 6: “Did you walk past the guard at the time Lieutenant
Pierce’s car was parked on the ramp exit?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
Question No. 8: “Did you talk with any Dallas police officer on Sunday,
November 24, prior to shooting Oswald?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
With regard to chart interpretation on this particular series of
questions, it is difficult to interpret because this is the first
series where Mr. Ruby tends to show a little fatigue in that he took
several deep breaths, could not refrain from moving his foot and the
rest of his body, and, in general, the chart is relatively difficult to
interpret.
However, considering these body motions and his irregular breathing,
there appear to be no significant physiological variations with regard
to his response to the relevant questions as projected in that series.
There is one question in which he displayed a moderate rise of blood
pressure, and that was in regard to an irrelevant question No. 5: “Are
your parents alive?” In which he stated “No.” He was questioned about
this after the series was over, and he advised that he felt a little
nervous during this series, but that particular question didn’t give
him any trouble. His breathing is quite irregular throughout this
series, and I have a notation on my chart that I advised Mr. Specter
that Mr. Ruby was beginning to show some signs of fatigue, and it was
mutually agreed that we would have a recess at this point.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did that recess last, Mr. Herndon?
Mr. HERNDON. This particular series began according to my charts at
4:35 p.m., and the next subsequent series began at 6:48 p.m.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given us all the important findings on series
4?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I have.
Mr. SPECTER. Let’s move on now then to series No. 5 and mark that as
Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 6.
(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 6 was marked for identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. I will ask you to start with the relevant questions again,
and give us the answers and any significant physiological deviation.
Mr. HERNDON. This particular series which my notes refer to as series
No. 5 began at 6:48, and Mr. Ruby was asked four relevant questions.
Question No. 2: “Did you see the armored truck before you entered the
basement?” He replied “No.”
Question No. 4: “Did you enter the police department through a door at
the rear on the east side of the jail?” He responded “No.”
Question No. 6: “After talking to Little Lynn did you hear any
announcement that Oswald was about to be moved?” He responded “No.”
Question No. 8: “Before you left your apartment Sunday morning,
did anyone tell you the armored car was on the way to the police
department?” He replied “No.”
The one particular thing of interest with regard to overall
interpretation of this chart is how Ruby showed considerable more
relaxation and appeared to be completely at ease after the recess.
There was no physiological variation of any significance noted with
regard to his replies to the relevant questions. There is some
deviation with regard to his pneumograph tracing at question No. 7,
which is considered a control-type question. This question was: “Other
than what you told me, did you ever hit anyone with any kind of a
weapon?” He responded to this question by talking. However, he later
asked that the question be repeated. The question was repeated during
the series, and he responded “No.” The only significant deviation from
his normal pattern was recorded in the pneumograph, and this was caused
by his talking in response to the question the first time it was asked.
There is nothing else significant noted in series No. 5.
Mr. SPECTER. Let’s proceed then to series No. 6 and we will mark that
as Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 7.
(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 7 was marked for identification.)
Mr. HERNDON. Do you want the total chart minutes?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; please give us that.
Mr. HERNDON. The total chart minutes of series 5 was 2 minutes 55
seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show now that we have marked series No.
6 as Herndon Exhibit No. 7. Would you now, Mr. Herndon, specify the
relevant questions, responses, and psychological deviations, if any?
Mr. HERNDON. In series No. 6 Mr. Ruby was asked four relevant questions.
No. 2: “Did you get a Wall Street Journal at Southwestern Drug Store
during the week before the assassination?” He replied “No.”
Question No. 4: “Do you have any knowledge of a Wall Street Journal
addressed to a Mr. J. E. Bradshaw?”
He replied “No.”
Question No. 6: “To your knowledge did you or any of your friends
telephone the FBI in Dallas between 2 and 3 a.m. Sunday morning?” He
replied “No.”
Question No. 8: “Did you or any of your friends to your knowledge
telephone the sheriff’s office between 2 or 3 a.m. Sunday morning?” He
replied “No.”
From a review of Mr. Ruby’s polygrams, on series 6, it was noted that
there were no significant physiological variations to his response to
the relevant questions. It was noted that Mr. Ruby did display slight
suppression in his breathing pattern, and a relative decrease in blood
pressure with an increase in the heart amplitude at question No. 7.
This question was: “Did you ever overcharge a customer?” Mr. Ruby
replied “No.” However, after the series, this question was discussed
with him briefly, and he did make mention of the fact that there had
been some trouble at his nightclub with regard to the waitresses and
big bills. This could be interpreted as a possible deception pattern
in that he hedged with regard to the question “Did you ever overcharge
a customer.” The total chart minutes of series No. 6 was 2 minutes 50
seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other significant findings on series 6?
Mr. HERNDON. The only significant finding being that the control
question 7 displays a more significant variation than his response to
the relevant questions. There are no others.
Mr. SPECTER. You have now given us then all the significant findings on
series 6?
Mr. HERNDON. That is correct.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that we are now placing the
designation Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 8 on series No. 7.
(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 8 was marked for identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. Would you start again, Mr. Herdon, with the relevant
questions and tell us the answers and the responses thereto with any
significant findings?
Mr. HERNDON. Series No. 7 contains four relevant questions.
Question No. 2: “Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on
Friday, November 22, 1963, before you went to the synagogue?” Mr. Ruby
replied “No.”
Question No. 4: “Did you go to the synagogue that Friday night?” Mr.
Ruby replied “Yes.”
Question No. 6: “Did you see Oswald in the Dallas jail on Friday
night?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
Question No. 8: “Did you have a gun with you when you went to the
Friday midnight press conference at the jail?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
There was one other question asked which I consider irrelevant.
However, it is of value to the series, and I will make mention of it,
question No. 9: “Is everything you told the Warren Commission the
entire truth?” Mr. Ruby responded “Yes.”
With regard to overall interpretation of series No. 7, I first noticed
there is a physiological deviation to Mr. Ruby’s response to question
No. 1 which was “Do you intend to answer the questions truthfully.”
However, my notes indicate that Mr. Ruby talked and said “Yes, I do,”
and by actually speaking several words it is believed that this caused
the variation in the tracings.
Mr. SPECTER. Will movement or speaking cause a variation in the
tracings ordinarily, Mr. Herndon?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes. Body movements or speaking any phrase or sentence
would certainly cause changes in the physiological patterns as
displayed on the polygraph. I made notation of that, however, and
that explains the changes. On question No. 2, Mr. Ruby did show
a significant drop in the relative blood pressure. This question
pertained to: “Did you go to the Dallas police station at any time on
Friday November 22, 1963, before you went to the synagogue?” I asked
him about this question later when he responded “No,” and I noticed a
physiological change. He advised that there was some man by the name of
John Rutledge, and he made an association with proceedings at the trial
which I have reason to believe this gentleman, John Rutledge, differed
somewhat with what Ruby stated as to when he went to the synagogue.
Due to the nature of this change, however, it is possible that it was
caused by a body motion that I failed to detect during the actual
response.
I notice that the cardio pen dropped all the way down and hit what we
call the limit screws. This frequently is caused by a sudden rapid
shift in his body position, and this change could have been caused by a
body movement.
With regard to the other relevant questions in this series, question 4,
question 6, and question 8, there was no significant deviation from his
normal physiological patterns.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other significant findings, in series No. 7?
Mr. HERNDON. There was a significant change in his breathing pattern
and also a slight decrease in his blood pressure when I asked him the
question “Did you attend the synagogue regularly?”
However, this is a control type question, and as later discussed with
him, there was some area of doubt in his mind as to whether he attended
the synagogue regularly as much as he would like to. The total chart
minutes on series 7 was 2 minutes 55 seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given all the relevant findings on chart No.
7?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes, I have.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that I have affixed Herndon Deposition
Exhibit No. 9 to series No. 8.
(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 9 was marked for identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. I hand it to you with the request that you give us the
findings there starting with the relevant questions.
Mr. HERNDON. Series No. 8 contained five relevant questions.
No. 2: “Have you ever knowingly attended any meetings of the Communist
Party or any other group that advocates violent overthrow of the
Government?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
I notice in the pneumograph tracing some deviation. However, by
interpretation of the chart and the length of that particular question,
it again appears obvious that there was some hesitation on his part in
answering the question due to its length.
However, there was no other noticeable significant physiological
deviation in his response to that question.
Question No. 4: “Is any of your immediate family or any close friend a
member of the Communist Party?” Mr. Ruby replied “No” and there is no
significant change in his normal physiological pattern.
Question No. 6: “Is any of your immediate family or any close friend
a member of any group that advocates the violent overthrow of the
Government?” This again is a relatively long question. However, it did
not appear to disturb him, and there is no noticable physiological
deviation in his response to this question.
Question No. 8: “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate
family ever attend a meeting of the Communist Party?” Mr. Ruby replied
“No.”
Here again there is no noticable significant deviation in his
physiological pattern.
Question No. 9: “Did any close friend or any member of your immediate
family ever attend a meeting of any group that advocates the violent
overthrow of the Government?” Here again this is a relatively long
question and there was a little hesitation on his part in answering
it, causing a change in the pneumograph tracing. However, there is no
significant deviation with regard to his overall physiological pattern
when he responded to this question. In general, series 8 shows no
significant deviation from his normal physiological pattern. The total
chart minutes was 2 minutes 50 seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. You have now then given us all of the relevant findings on
series No. 8, correct?
Mr. HERNDON. Correct, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you the chart designated series No. 9 marked
Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 10, and ask you if there was any unique
system employed in that series.
(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 10 was marked for identification.)
Mr. HERNDON. Yes, there was at this point in the interrogation.
Realizing the Commission had a large number of questions they wanted
to ask, it was decided at this point, in view of the fact that we had
asked the main critical questions, to proceed with what I call direct
interrogation, that is that each and every one of the questions asked
is a relevant question, and that there are no irrelevant questions or
control questions asked.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you proceed then to give us the results of those
questions.
Mr. HERNDON. Did you want me to itemize each and every one of these
questions or read them out? They are all relevant questions and a
matter of record.
Mr. SPECTER. Yes, please do.
Mr. HERNDON. Series 9 contains 7 questions, all being relevant.
Question No. 1: “Did you ever meet Oswald at your post office box?” Mr.
Ruby replied “No.”
Question No. 2: “Did you use your post office mail box to do any
business with Mexico or Cuba?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
Question No. 3: “Did you do business with Castro Cuba?” Mr. Ruby
replied “No.”
Question No. 4: “Was your trip to Cuba solely for pleasure?”
Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
Question No. 5: “Have you now told us the truth concerning why you
carried $2,200 in cash on you?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
Question No. 6: “Did any foreign influence cause you to shoot Oswald?”
Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
Question No. 7: “Did you shoot Oswald because of any influence of the
underworld?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
In interpreting his chart with regard to this particular series
of questions, there is no noticeable significant deviation in his
physiological pattern except at question No. 6. According to my
notation on the chart, Ruby moved his head at this point, and there was
a deviation caused by this movement in his blood pressure tracing and
also in his pneumograph tracing. His heart rate maintained a consistent
rate of approximately 66 to 72 heart beats per minute throughout this
series. No significant changes.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the total time on that series?
Mr. HERNDON. The total chart minutes on series 9 was 2 minutes 15
seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given us all the relevant factors from that
series reading?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I have.
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that you are going to proceed with
series 9A which is a continuation of the sheet marked Herndon Exhibit
No. 10.
Mr. HERNDON. This was done in order to save time inasmuch as the
interrogation was becoming rather lengthy at this point, and Mr.
Specter indicated he was anxious to proceed and to complete the rest of
the questions that we had agreed upon with all those parties that were
interested in this interrogation.
Series No. 9A again is a series of relevant questions.
Question No. 8: “Did you shoot Oswald because of labor union
influence?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
Question No. 9: “Did any long distance telephone calls which you made
before the assassination of the President have anything to do with the
assassination?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
Question No. 10: “Did any of your long distance telephone calls concern
the shooting of Oswald?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
Mr. SPECTER. What number question was that again?
Mr. HERNDON. Question No. 10.
Question No. 11: “Did you shoot Oswald in order to save Mrs. Kennedy
the ordeal of a trial?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
Question No. 12: “Did you know the Tippit that was killed?” Mr. Ruby
replied “No.”
Question No. 13: “Did you tell the truth about relaying the message to
Ray Brantley to get McWillie a few guns?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
Question No. 14: “Did you go to the assembly room on Friday night to
get the telephone number of KLIF?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
Question No. 15: “Did you ever meet with Oswald and Tippit at your
club?” Mr. Ruby replied “No.”
Mr. SPECTER. On the designations series 9 and 9A, Mr. Herndon, did you
loosen up the cuff on his arm during the two series?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I deliberately loosened or actually I completely took
off all pressure off his arm to allow him to have complete circulation
in his arm and to give him a rest period before proceeding with series
9A. I believe the transcript will show that I asked him if he was
feeling all right and if he was ready to proceed before going into
series 9A. A review of series 9A with regard to Ruby’s polygrams fails
to reveal any significant physiological reaction with regard to his
responses to these relevant questions.
At this point, Mr. Specter, I might add that we are getting into an
area now where it is possible that Ruby is getting somewhat cuff
weary and getting somewhat tired and becoming somewhat immune to the
polygraph technique. I believe we both realized this.
However, we wanted to ask these questions as a matter of record. The
chart shows there is no stress or strain. However, it is entirely
possible that he is becoming desensitized at this point.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given us all the relevant findings on series
9a?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; the total chart minutes for this particular series
was 2 minutes 30 seconds.
Mr. SPECTER. I now hand you series No. 10 which is marked Herndon
Deposition Exhibit No. 11, and ask you to start again with the relevant
questions and give us the responses thereto and any significant
findings.
(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 11 was marked for identification.)
Mr. HERNDON. Series No. 10 again was mutually agreed upon by several of
the people present during the examination. However, formally authorized
by Mr. Specter of the President’s Commission. They are question No.
2 which is relevant: “Were you at the Parkland Hospital any time on
Friday?” Mr. Ruby replied, “No.”
Question No. 3, which is considered relevant. “Did you say anything
when you shot Oswald other than what you testified about?”
Mr. Ruby replied, “No.”
Question No. 4, which was originally recommended by Dr. Beavers and as
agreed upon by Mr. Specter, was presented in this manner.
Question No. 4: “Have members of your family been physically harmed
because of what you did?” Mr. Ruby—could we go off the record here? I
am a little confused on my notes at this point?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that while off the record, Mr. Herndon
has referred to his notes and also to the transcript of testimony
taken by the court reporter at the time the polygraph examination was
administered, to be sure of the questions and answers here, and that as
Mr. Herndon points out, his notes correspond with the transcript.
Will you then proceed Mr. Herndon to state those questions, answers and
responses, if any?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; No. 4 was: “Have members of your family been
physically harmed because of what you did?” Mr. Ruby did reply “No,”
and then said: “May I interrupt?” He was instructed by me to just sit
perfectly still and we will discuss the questions later. There was a
deviation in his physiological tracings with regard to this question.
However, these must be interpreted to the fact that he actually spoke a
sentence in response to the question.
Question No. 5 was: “Do you think members of your family are now in
danger because of what you did?” Mr. Ruby failed to make any reply
or response to this particular question. It is noted that there was
no significant change in his physiological tracings in any of the
components following my asking this question.
Question No. 6 was: “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending
you?” Here again Mr. Ruby failed to make any verbal reply to the
question. Looking at the polygrams produced, it is noted that there is
no significant physiological response with regard to this question. The
examiner made a notation on his chart that it appeared that Mr. Ruby
was visibly pondering the answer to these questions. However, decided
not to answer them as instructed either yes or no period.
Question No. 7 is a relevant question: “Did Blackie Harrison speak to
you just before you shot Oswald?” Mr. Ruby replied “No” and there is a
slight increase in his relative blood pressure. However, this is not
considered significant inasmuch as it is at the end of the series, and
it is not unusual for slight increase in blood pressure to be portrayed
as the series prolongs into the later questions. It is not considered
significant.
The total chart minutes on this particular series was 2 minutes 25
seconds.
In discussion of the two questions in which Mr. Ruby failed to reply, I
made notations on the chart that he felt the questions were difficult
to answer yes or no, and that he didn’t know how to answer them.
Mr. SPECTER. By those questions do you mean the ones——
Mr. HERNDON. I am referring to question 5 and 6 in which he did not
specifically reply verbally.
Mr. SPECTER. That is “Do you think members of your family are now in
danger because of what you did?”
Mr. HERNDON. That is correct.
Mr. SPECTER. And “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is defending you?”
Mr. HERNDON. That is correct.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Ruby answer those in a preliminary session?
Mr. HERNDON. During the preliminary session he did answer those
questions.
Mr. SPECTER. What answer to each question did he give?
Mr. HERNDON. To the question “Do you think members of your family are
now in danger because of what you did?” he replied “Yes.”
In regard to the question “Is Mr. Fowler in danger because he is
defending you?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now given all the significant findings on series
No. 10?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; I have.
Mr. SPECTER. I will now move to series No. 11 which we will mark for
this record as Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 12.
(Herndon Deposition Exhibit No. 12 was marked for identification.)
Mr. SPECTER. Will you start on series No. 11, giving the relevant
questions, answers and any physiological deviation?
Mr. HERNDON. These questions on Series 11 were primarily asked after a
conversation between Mr. Ruby and Mr. Specter at which time Mr. Ruby
indicated he wanted some additional questions asked of him.
It was finally agreed upon that we would ask the three following
questions.
No. 1 just to establish identity “Are you Jack Ruby?” in which he
replied “Yes.”
Question No. 2: “Do you consider yourself to be a 100-percent American
patriot?” Mr. Ruby responded “Yes.”
And question No. 3 “Is all of the testimony given by you today the
complete truth?” Mr. Ruby replied “Yes.”
This particular series began at 8:57 p.m., and a review of the
physiological responses to these three particular questions indicate
that they are not significant. It is believed by the examiner at
this point, although Mr. Ruby said he was not tired in his general
conversation with the examiner, that he was probably somewhat fatigued,
and he was no longer displaying the usual physiological responses
expected during the earlier phases of the examination.
The total chart minutes of series 11 is 1 minute 10 seconds. I do not
consider anything significant to these particular responses other than
the fact that we obliged Mr. Ruby in asking them.
Mr. SPECTER. Was this polygraph examination excessive with respect to
length in your opinion, Mr. Herndon?
Mr. HERNDON. Well, it would greatly depend on Mr. Ruby’s physical and
mental condition of course. A doctor was in attendance during the
examination, and I repeatedly asked Mr. Ruby during the examination
how he felt and whether he wanted to proceed. I asked him on several
occasions if he would like to take a break or have a drink of water. I
cannot specifically state that it did or did not appear to hinder his
health or cause him any undue fatigue.
However, I did hear the doctor indicate that there was no undue
physical stress or strain on Mr. Ruby during the examination.
Mr. SPECTER. Up until the points where you have indicated there were
some signs of tiredness, did Mr. Ruby appear to be responding in a
satisfactory manner?
Mr. HERNDON. I would say during the first several series of questions,
and based on the presumption again that Mr. Ruby was rationally sound
and competent during this phase of the examination, that he responded
very normally, and the polygraph examination proceeded without any
technical difficulties.
Mr. SPECTER. Was Mr. Ruby given periodic breaks throughout the course
of the examination in addition to that lengthy one between series 4 and
series 5?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes; he was given a number of breaks and there was no
time when he was asked a long series of questions inasmuch as the
total chart, minutes on my charts indicate none of them went beyond
3 minutes, which is certainly considered well within standard series
total chart minutes.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be
helpful to the President’s Commission?
Mr. HERNDON. Yes. I would like to make a few additional comments with
regard to this polygraph examination, in view of the fact that it was
somewhat unique and unusual. I think these factors should be somewhat
considered in the overall evaluation of the polygraph examination.
First of all, Ruby has obviously been extensively interviewed by law
enforcement officers and by the Commission and other people, and there
has been a considerable length of time lapse since the time that the
instant offense occurred of him shooting Oswald. These factors of
length of time and considerable previous interrogation would tend to
detract or negate any specific or definite conclusion that could be
rendered with regard to the polygraph examination.
The fact that there were other personnel in the room would tend
to negate a valid polygraph technique. However, here again I did
mention that this did not appear to bother Mr. Ruby. But it should be
considered and made a matter of record.
One other point I would like to mention, and that is the large
number of relevant questions asked Mr. Ruby during this particular
examination. This is not general standard procedure. However, I realize
that the President’s Commission wanted to cover many facets, and that
it was mutually agreed upon that we would ask the questions that the
Commission had originally drawn up for this particular interrogation.
In normal polygraph procedure it is usual to keep the relevant
questions down to perhaps several specific critical relevant questions
and work strictly on those, and in this particular examination we had a
large number of relevant questions to ask.
I think these are all factors that should be considered in the overall
evaluation of Mr. Ruby’s polygraph examination.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much, Mr. Herndon.
TESTIMONY OF BRECK WALL (BILLY RAY WILSON)
The testimony of Breck Wall was taken at 2:13 p.m., on August 5, 1964,
at the U.S. Post Office Building, 301 Stewart Street, Las Vegas, Nev.,
by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that this deposition proceeding of
the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy
is being taken at the U.S. Post Office Building, 301 Stewart Street,
Las Vegas, Nev. May the record further show it is now 2:13 Pacific
daylight time on Wednesday, August 5, 1964. Present is Mr. Breck Wall
who has appeared in response to letter notification and also telephone
notification.
Mr. Wall, the President’s Commission has asked you to appear here today
to testify concerning any knowledge which you may have of Mr. Jack
Ruby, his associates, background, and his activities relating to the
events of November 22 through November 24, 1963. With that preliminary
statement of purpose, I will ask you to rise and raise your right hand,
if you would, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you shall give in
this deposition proceeding before the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy shall be the truth, the whole truth,
and nothing but the truth?
Mr. WALL. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?
Mr. WALL. My legal name is Billy Ray Wilson but I have used
professionally Breck Wall for the last 7 or 8 years.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Wall, did you receive a letter of notification asking
you to appear here today for your deposition?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did that letter contain within it the Executive order
creating the President’s Commission and a copy of the rules and
regulations for taking of depositions by the President’s Commission?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And you understand that if you wish, you may be
represented by counsel here today?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you want to have an attorney with you today?
Mr. WALL. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you receive that letter?
Mr. WALL. Monday night at home. I was performing at the Castaways and a
friend of mine signed the receipt on it.
Mr. SPECTER. Under the regulations you are entitled to 3 days’ notice.
Are you willing to proceed with this deposition today without having
that notice?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation or profession, Mr. Wall?
Mr. WALL. Producer; performer.
Mr. SPECTER. Where are you employed at the present time?
Mr. WALL. At the Castaways in Las Vegas.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the nature of your duties in connection with your
employment at the Castaways?
Mr. WALL. Well, I perform each night. I don’t understand what you mean
really.
Mr. SPECTER. What sort of performing do you do?
Mr. WALL. Comedy; musical comedy.
Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been engaged in that type of activity?
Mr. WALL. About 6 years.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was your occupation before you became an
entertainer?
Mr. WALL. College student.
Mr. SPECTER. How old are you at the present time?
Mr. WALL. Twenty-seven.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your educational background?
Mr. WALL. Well, I only had 1 year of college, University of Texas.
Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born?
Mr. WALL. Jacksonville, Fla.
Mr. SPECTER. And where did you live, in a general way, up to the
present time?
Mr. WALL. Well, I have lived in Freeport, Tex., that is where I was
raised, and Dallas, New York City, Jacksonville, Fla., Orlando, Fla.,
and here.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you live in New York City?
Mr. WALL. In 1954 through 1957.
Mr. SPECTER. What was your occupation at that time?
Mr. WALL. I worked as a doorman at Luchow’s on 14th Street.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you live at those various cities in Florida?
Mr. WALL. In between—in the year of 1957 and 1958. I came to Dallas in
November of 1958, I believe.
Mr. SPECTER. When was it specifically that you lived in Florida then?
Mr. WALL. It was in the first part of 1958 and the latter part of 1957,
I would say.
Mr. SPECTER. And when did you live in Freeman, Tex.?
Mr. WALL. Freeport.
Mr. SPECTER. Freeport, Tex.?
Mr. WALL. Through school until I graduated in 1953.
Mr. SPECTER. From high school?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Then you attended the University of Texas in Austin for a
year?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And where did you live from 1954 until the time you went
to New York City?
Mr. WALL. Then New York City from Austin.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you go directly from Austin to New York City?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go directly from New York City?
Mr. WALL. To Jacksonville, Fla.
Mr. SPECTER. Where you lived for the balance of the time up until
November of 1958?
Mr. WALL. Right; sir.
Mr. SPECTER. When you went to Dallas, Tex.?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do when you first went to Dallas in November
of 1958?
Mr. WALL. I was ill at the time and I had to stay with the McKennas. I
was sick at the time.
Mr. SPECTER. And where do the McKennas live?
Mr. WALL. Currently they live in Galveston, Tex. They moved from Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER. What are the first names of the McKennas?
Mr. WALL. Thomas J. McKenna.
Mr. SPECTER. And is there another McKenna?
Mr. WALL. There are—you mean as far as children?
Mr. SPECTER. You say you lived with the McKennas. I take it there was
more than one McKenna or was there only one?
Mr. WALL. Mrs. McKenna and three children.
Mr. SPECTER. And how long did you stay with them following the time you
joined them in November of 1958?
Mr. WALL. I would say about 2 months.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you next live?
Mr. WALL. I can’t think of the name of the street. In Dallas. I lived
in Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER. With others, or by yourself?
Mr. WALL. By myself.
Mr. SPECTER. How did you happen to know the McKennas?
Mr. WALL. When I was going to high school, I would spend the summer
with my family and they lived next door to my family.
Mr. SPECTER. And when you spent the summer with your family who lived
next door to the McKennas, was that in Dallas?
Mr. WALL. No, sir; in Fort Worth.
Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you live with when you went to school in
Freeport?
Mr. WALL. With my grandmother who has since deceased.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Dallas, Tex., after November of
1958?
Mr. WALL. When I moved in November of 1958 there, I stayed until I just
moved.
Mr. SPECTER. When was it that you left?
Mr. WALL. We left in January of 1964 to go to Houston.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say “we,” whom do you mean by that?
Mr. WALL. The company; the show I am in.
Mr. SPECTER. Which show is that?
Mr. WALL. Bottoms Up.
Mr. SPECTER. How long were you in Houston then?
Mr. WALL. We were in Houston for 12 weeks and then from Houston we came
out to Las Vegas.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Jack Ruby?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. When, to the best of your recollection, did you first meet
Mr. Ruby?
Mr. WALL. I would say about 3½ years ago.
Mr. SPECTER. What were the circumstances of your becoming acquainted
with him?
Mr. WALL. We were having financial trouble at a club we owned called
the Playbill.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say “we,” whom do you mean?
Mr. WALL. Joe Peterson, my partner. We needed a place to go to do a
show. Jack Ruby offered a very lucrative offer to play his new club. It
was then called the Sovereign Club which later became the Carousel.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, what was the nature of the lucrative offer which Mr.
Ruby made to you?
Mr. WALL. Well, I think he was going to pay us, I think, I’m not sure,
$125 a week plus we were on a small percentage of the club.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you play for Mr. Ruby at the Sovereign Club?
Mr. WALL. I would say about 8 weeks. Maybe less.
Mr. SPECTER. What happened, if anything, to terminate that arrangement?
Mr. WALL. We got into an argument over a contract that I had signed
stating that I would perform the show for one night for around $2,200.
Mr. SPECTER. What show were you supposed to perform for one night?
Mr. WALL. Bottoms Up.
Mr. SPECTER. For whom?
Mr. WALL. I don’t recall the name of the organization. It was a nurses’
organization.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was that show supposed to be performed?
Mr. WALL. In the ballroom of the Hotel Adolphus.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the nature of your disagreement with Mr. Ruby?
Mr. WALL. He was in a financial bind because the show wasn’t working
out like he thought and we were in a financial bind and needed the
money and he would let us do it only if we would give him half. We
couldn’t because we couldn’t.
Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean “we”? You still mean Joe Peterson and you?
Mr. WALL. Yes. And we called in the union man of our performing arts
called AGVA.
Mr. SPECTER. What is that an abbreviation of?
Mr. WALL. American Guild of Variety Artists. And the AGVA man sided
with Jack and we got into an argument wherein Jack punched Joe in the
mouth and broke off a tooth.
Mr. SPECTER. Joe Peterson, that is?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. And we left that night. I might also add in the
record that the man, the name of the man representing our union, was
named James Dolen who was arrested later, some months later, by the FBI.
Mr. SPECTER. On what charge, if you know?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; as far as I know he was running some sort of bingo
game or something illegal in Louisiana.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you perform that show Bottoms Up?
Mr. WALL. No, sir. Jack Ruby and Jim Dolen took the show over and made
our kids perform the show.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the same troupe then performing the show except for
you and Mr. Peterson?
Mr. WALL. The only one we have now with us that did the show with us
over at the Adolphus that particular night is Bill Fanning who is in
our show.
Mr. SPECTER. After that 8-week connection with Mr. Ruby what later
association, if any, did you have with him?
Mr. WALL. Well, I didn’t speak to Jack for about, I would say, around 6
months but he and Mr. Peterson became good friends again because they
have the type personalities that flare up and forget; and I don’t—I
have a mind like an elephant—and they started speaking so, therefore,
I started speaking and going back to the club which he changed into a
stripper club called the Carousel.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever work for Mr. Ruby again?
Mr. WALL. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Then from that time on you knew him as a friend and
acquaintance in the Dallas area?
Mr. WALL. Right.
Mr. SPECTER. What was your occupation from the time you left Mr. Ruby’s
until you left Dallas in January of 1964?
Mr. WALL. We reopened the Playbill Club for about 4 months and then we
went back to the—I’m sorry—then we went to the Maple Theater, did a
show for about 6 weeks called Mr. Wonderful, then back to the Adolphus
Hotel where we stayed.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do at the Adolphus Hotel?
Mr. WALL. Bottoms Up. Performed it in the Century Room.
Mr. SPECTER. How frequently did you see Mr. Ruby during the years of
1961, 1962, 1963?
Mr. WALL. Well, after we lost the Playbill again for a second time and
we closed the show at the Maple Theater, then we were right across
the street from where Jack had his club and Jack got a haircut at the
barbershop in the hotel, ate in the hotel restaurant, consequently I
think that is when he started—he and Joe started being friends and I
started seeing him a lot and became good friends; then when we started
at the Adolphus in 1962, maybe the latter part of 1961, we started
speaking and being good friends. We would go over there sometimes three
or four times a week just to see the show and the girls over there
which we were good friends with.
Mr. SPECTER. To your knowledge, did Jack Ruby ever associate with any
of the criminal element?
Mr. WALL. He always reminded me of a gangster but I have never seen him
with anyone.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did he always remind you of a gangster?
Mr. WALL. Just the way he talks, you know, he just reminds me of a real
hood. Still I have never seen him with anyone that you would call a
criminal in Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER. Aside from his appearance and the way he talks do you have
any factual reason for saying that he appears to be a hood or gangster?
Mr. WALL. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. To your knowledge was Jack Ruby ever a member of any
subversive organization or any group which advocates the forceful
overthrow of the United States Government?
Mr. WALL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Were any members of his family or friends ever members of
any subversive organization?
Mr. WALL. I only met one relative of his which was his sister, Eva, or
Ava, however you would say it. I just met her casually.
Mr. SPECTER. What is her last name?
Mr. WALL. I really don’t know.
Mr. SPECTER. Grant?
Mr. WALL. Grant. That is right. She ran his club on—what street is it?
I have to think of the club for a minute. It is right next door to the
B&B.
Mr. SPECTER. The Vegas Club?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. Thank you. That was the only time. I have only been
out to the Vegas Club maybe twice in the whole time I have been in
Dallas but I would see her at the B&B restaurant eating after she had
closed her club.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever know Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. WALL. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. WALL. Only after he had shot the President.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Jack Ruby ever knew Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr. WALL. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Jack Ruby and Lee Harvey Oswald together
at any time?
Mr. WALL. No, sir; not at all.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Jack Ruby knew Officer J. D. Tippit?
Mr. WALL. No, sir; I don’t. He knew most of the policemen on the police
force.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Jack Ruby with Officer Tippit?
Mr. WALL. I don’t know what he looks like.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who Officer Tippit is?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr. SPECTER. He was the officer who was shot and killed the day of the
assassination.
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall Friday, November 22, 1963?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities on that day to the best of your
ability to recollect?
Mr. WALL. That was very easy to remember. We went down to the Adolphus
marquee.
Mr. SPECTER. “We” meaning?
Mr. WALL. Joe Peterson and also with us was Nancy Austin, who is in
our show, and Kenny Jerome, who is in our show. We watched President
Kennedy drive by and I was listening to it on the radio as he was
driving and when he passed us he was going 30 miles an hour whereas
he had been going 10 miles an hour so we missed him. With all the
excitement and everything we didn’t get a good look at him so we went
upstairs.
Mr. SPECTER. Your view of the motorcade from the Adolphus was from the
marquee of the Adolphus Hotel in Dallas?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after the Presidential limousine passed
the Adolphus Hotel?
Mr. WALL. We wanted to get a better look at the President so Joe
Peterson and myself decided to go out to the airport because when he
was out there, when he first arrived in Dallas, he stayed out there I
think 30 minutes longer than he was supposed to, shaking hands with
the people. We thought he might do it again. We ran upstairs to change
clothes. It was a very cold day. We needed to put on some warm clothes.
We went upstairs to change clothes and go out to the airport. We always
left our television on because we have a dog and it sort of keeps him
calm. When we opened the door into the bedroom they announced over the
television that the President had been assassinated. Joe went down to
the—as far as I know he went down to the Book Depository to see what it
looked like and I stayed in the bedroom and watched the television to
find out what was, you know, going on. We stayed there all that night
and we departed for Galveston to get away from Dallas the next day,
which was Saturday, at around 3 or 4 in the afternoon.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do the balance of Friday night?
Mr. WALL. We stayed and watched television. I didn’t move from the
television set.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have dinner that night?
Mr. WALL. In the room.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you go to bed on the evening of November 22,
if you recall?
Mr. WALL. As far as I know I didn’t go to bed until 5 in the morning.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do all that night?
Mr. WALL. Watched television.
Mr. SPECTER. Were the television stations running around the clock?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you awaken on Saturday, November 23, if you
remember?
Mr. WALL. I would say around 8 o’clock, 9 o’clock. I woke up and
watched television again.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you eat breakfast?
Mr. WALL. I went down to breakfast on Saturday.
Mr. SPECTER. Down to where?
Mr. WALL. The coffee shop.
Mr. SPECTER. Of the Adolphus Hotel?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. Then I came right back up and watched television
again until that afternoon.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you leave the hotel?
Mr. WALL. About 3 or 4 that afternoon we left for Galveston.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say “we,” whom do you mean?
Mr. WALL. Joe Peterson and myself.
Mr. SPECTER. By what means did you go?
Mr. WALL. In our car.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone calls on Saturday?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. I called the McKennas to tell them we were coming
down.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone calls on Friday, the day before?
Mr. WALL. I’m sure I made telephone calls to each cast member telling
them we would not perform until Monday or Tuesday, that Mr. Anderson
didn’t know yet—he is the manager of the hotel—I’m sure I made quite a
few calls that day.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you had a conversation with Mr. Anderson concerning
the closing of the show?
Mr. WALL. No, sir. He called us saying there wouldn’t be a show until
Monday or Tuesday depending on when the funeral was. He didn’t know.
Mr. SPECTER. What is his full name?
Mr. WALL. All I know is Andy Anderson. He has initials. I don’t know,
sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What members of the cast did you call following your
conversation with Mr. Anderson?
Mr. WALL. Everyone in the cast, and I may forget a few names. I can
list them if you’d like.
Mr. SPECTER. Please do.
Mr. WALL. Carl Tressler in Fort Worth. There would also be Eddie
Parker, Bill Fanning, Suzanne Malone.
Mr. SPECTER. Where does she live?
Mr. WALL. In Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER. Where does Carl Tressler live?
Mr. WALL. Fort Worth. All the cast members in our show live in Dallas
with the exception of Carl Tressler and Eddie Parker who live in Fort
Worth. All of my calls would have been in Fort Worth except for the
long distance calls in Galveston. We have had so many castings I really
can’t remember the rest of the people we had in our show. Possibly I
made a call to Hazel Rippe, if she was still in the show.
Mr. SPECTER. That would have been in Dallas also?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. All these telephone numbers would be in Dallas.
Hazel wasn’t in our show. There is another phone number in Fort Worth,
it was a girl dancer in our show by the name of Ryna Hradecky, who
was a friend of Carl Tressler’s, so, therefore, I might have given a
message to Carl to call Ryna because I couldn’t get her at home at that
particular time but if I had any calls to Fort Worth it would be to
Ryna also. There would be one or two other calls to Dallas which would
be cast members but I really can’t think who was in the show.
Mr. SPECTER. At about what time did you call Tom McKenna?
Mr. WALL. It would probably be, I would say, around 2 in the afternoon
because we decided very quickly we were going. We just got tired of
laying around the room watching television. I was beginning to get
“buggy.”
Mr. SPECTER. Could you have called him as late as 5:30 that afternoon?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; it could have been.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do then the balance of that afternoon?
Mr. WALL. Watched television.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you watch television all the time up until the point
when you left to go to Galveston?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive in Galveston?
Mr. WALL. It would be 11 o’clock; somewhere around 11 o’clock.
Mr. SPECTER. How far is it from Dallas to Galveston?
Mr. WALL. I didn’t make the call from Dallas to Galveston at 2—it must
have been 5:30—because it only takes 4½ hours.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the distance?
Mr. WALL. Around 200 miles.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any stops en route?
Mr. WALL. Only for gas.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have dinner?
Mr. WALL. We didn’t have dinner. We don’t ever eat when we drive to
Galveston, just go straight on down.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you eat when you arrived at Galveston?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; we ate at the house.
Mr. SPECTER. At Mr. McKenna’s house?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after arriving in Galveston that night?
Mr. WALL. Well, just as nearly, as quickly as we arrived is when we
got a telephone call from Jack Ruby. After I talked to him we sat and
visited and then went to bed.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did the telephone call from Mr. Ruby last?
Mr. WALL. I would say it couldn’t have been more than only 5 minutes.
Maybe 3½ minutes.
Mr. SPECTER. State, as precisely as you can recollect, exactly what
Jack Ruby said to you and what you said to him during that telephone
call.
Mr. WALL. Well, he was having trouble with the union, or AGVA, and I
had been elected the president of the council, newly elected president,
and we had not even had a meeting yet but—I can’t remember—he was
having some sort of problems with his girls and the union was going to
make him do something, which I didn’t think was right. I told him I
would help him out and make sure his case was presented correctly.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the union trying to make him do?
Mr. WALL. I don’t recall. I really don’t know but—I wasn’t going to be
on his side, but I was going to be sure it was presented correctly,
that we would get his angle as much as the union’s, the girl that was
reporting him or whatever the circumstances were.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you friends with Mr. Ruby at this time?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. He was very upset the President was assassinated
and he called Abe Weinstein or Bernie Weinstein, he called them some
names for staying open Friday night.
Mr. SPECTER. What club did they run?
Mr. WALL. They—I don’t know which one owns which. One owns the Theater
Lounge and the other owns the Colony Club, and he was very upset that
he had closed and they stayed open. He thought it wasn’t right and he
wanted to know when I would return to Dallas and I told him probably
Monday or Tuesday and he said, well, when I got in to town would I call
him, which I said I would. He asked how everything was. I told him fine
and that was it.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you recollect anything else he said during that
telephone conversation?
Mr. WALL. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you recollect anything else that you said to him
during that call?
Mr. WALL. Only if I told him why I left Dallas. He asked what I was
doing in Galveston. I told him I just wanted to get away for a couple
of days.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he mention Lee Harvey Oswald in that telephone call?
Mr. WALL. No, sir; not at all.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he mention anything about any assassin or the assassin
whoever he might be?
Mr. WALL. No, sir. The only thing that he said which would be important
to the Commission was that he was very upset that the other clubs had
decided to stay open and that they did not have the decency to close
on such a day and that he thought out of respect they should close.
That is the only thing I recall that he said that would be of any
importance. The other things were about his business with the union,
how we were and why we went down to Galveston.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about any intention he might have to
do anything to Oswald?
Mr. WALL. No, sir; not at all.
Mr. SPECTER. Prior to that telephone call on the night of November 23,
when was the last time you had talked to Ruby before that?
Mr. WALL. It could have been 2 or 3 days before. I don’t know, as I
said. I saw him that often, you know. I do recall the last time I was
in his club was the week before he shot Oswald.
Mr. SPECTER. When were you in his club during that week?
Mr. WALL. We had signed a contract to go into the Continental Hotel in
Houston and we had the——
Mr. SPECTER. By “we” you mean you and Joe Peterson?
Mr. WALL. Right. Whenever I use “we” that is always Joe Peterson. And
we had—the man who signed us felt pretty good about it and wanted to
stay up beyond 12 o’clock, which is our curfew in Texas, and the only
place that was open is the three exotic clubs and we decided to take
Larry Grayson, booker of the Continental, to Jack Ruby’s club and let
him see a stripper called Jada.
Mr. SPECTER. Weren’t the exotic clubs governed by the curfew?
Mr. WALL. No, sir; I’m sorry. The Theater Lounge and the Colony Club
did close—I’m sorry. They didn’t close. No; they didn’t. You could
serve a beer called near beer which did not contain any alcohol, or
they would serve coffee. They did not have to close at the same time
the others closed; so we took Larry and went over there and stayed up
until around 2 or 3. I recall the incident, by the way, that Jack was
having trouble with the union about.
Mr. SPECTER. What incident was it?
Mr. WALL. It was something about the comic had to perform in between
each stripper to lengthen the time of the show and where he had
lined up three strippers at one time and then a comic and then three
strippers again. He was having trouble with time. He wanted to make the
show continuous and this was the problem he was having, so the night
that I went to the Carousel Club with Larry Grayson and Joe Peterson
he, himself, got on stage and entertained for 30 minutes with a raffle
and I recall that Larry turned to me and said—every time that Jack
would do something he would try and be very funny—every time he would
do something he would turn to me and say. “Is that all right, Breck?”
and Larry turned to me and said, “He thinks a great deal of you. Every
time he does anything he turns to you,” and I said, “Yes.” I definitely
remember that. That was the problem of trying to make——
Mr. SPECTER. What night was that?
Mr. WALL. It was at least a week before, maybe not—maybe not quite a
week.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you recall the specific night that was?
Mr. WALL. No, sir; I can’t.
Mr. SPECTER. Prior to that time when had you last seen Ruby?
Mr. WALL. I really don’t know, sir. I don’t think probably I saw him at
all until after the President had been shot.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, I’m going back, before the time you said you had
this conversation with him on that Saturday night when you were in
Galveston. You saw Jack Ruby at the Carousel Club some time about a
week before the assassination?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. When, prior to the time you were in the Carousel Club a
week before the assassination, had you last seen Jack Ruby?
Mr. WALL. Possibly on the street or something. I had gone up to the
club a week or two before that.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you discussed this problem concerning the American
Guild of Variety Artists with Jack Ruby prior to that telephone
conversation on November 23?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; I had.
Mr. SPECTER. When had you discussed it with him before?
Mr. WALL. He had called me——
Mr. SPECTER. When was that?
Mr. WALL. Possibly 2 weeks before the assassination—telling me his
problem and wanting to know when it would be brought up at the meeting,
and I told him that we usually met the 15th of each month and that at
the next meeting I would—I’m sorry. I made an error. We meet every
Thursday. Every Thursday there was a union meeting and the 15th is when
we meet privately, I think.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an official capacity with the union, that is,
were you an officer?
Mr. WALL. Well, I was an officer as being elected the president of
the inter-union. In other words, all the performers, if there was
a complaint that some performer had done something wrong and the
management said that he was right and the performer said that they were
right, then the performers themselves elected a committee of about six
that would determine who was right, and this was the committee and I
really don’t even know the correct name of the committee. They would
judge who was right and wrong and what would be done about it.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any official standing on the committee which
was to take up Jack Ruby’s problem?
Mr. WALL. I don’t understand what you mean.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you responsible in any official way for the committee
which was to consider the problem Jack Ruby had with the guild?
Mr. WALL. My capacity was to make sure that everything was presented
correctly and this was the only thing that Jack was after me to do is
to make sure his side of the story was heard.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it up to you to make the decision on who was right and
who was wrong?
Mr. WALL. It was up to the committee, six members.
Mr. SPECTER. You were one of the members of the committee?
Mr. WALL. Right.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, when did Jack Ruby first discuss his problem with you?
Mr. WALL. I would say around 2 weeks before the assassination.
Mr. SPECTER. When did he next discuss the problem with you?
Mr. WALL. He called me a couple of times to see if we had had a meeting
or not. He would call and I would tell him; no.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that by telephone?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; he would call me at the hotel.
Mr. SPECTER. And how many times did he call you after he first
discussed it with you approximately 2 weeks before the assassination?
Mr. WALL. I would say about two times.
Mr. SPECTER. When did he make those telephone calls to you?
Mr. WALL. In the afternoon.
Mr. SPECTER. Approximately how long before the assassination were those
calls made?
Mr. WALL. Well, the last one was the Saturday night, midnight the last
call came, that was the main reason he was calling me was to find out
if we had had a meeting.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he call you once or twice between the first time he
talked to you about the guild problem and the time he called you in
Galveston?
Mr. WALL. About twice.
Mr. SPECTER. When did those two telephone calls occur, to the best of
your recollection?
Mr. WALL. In the afternoon. That was the only time to get me.
Mr. SPECTER. What dates?
Mr. WALL. I can’t recall any dates.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you discuss any thing else in any of those two
telephone calls other than the specific problem with the guild?
Mr. WALL. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Had Mr. Ruby called you at Galveston prior to the time
he completed the call shortly after your arrival at Galveston on that
Saturday night?
Mr. WALL. I’m sorry. Had he——?
Mr. SPECTER. Did he just call you the first time and make that
connection with you?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; as far as I know. Otherwise my mother would have
said that she received a long distance call.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say your mother——
Mr. WALL. Nonnie. Mrs. McKenna.
Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. McKenna did not refer to any prior call to you?
Mr. WALL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how Mr. Ruby got your telephone number in
Galveston?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir. I left my telephone number where I would be in
Galveston with the operator in Dallas, which I do every time I go out
of town so they will know how to contact me.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your purpose in leaving your telephone number in
that manner?
Mr. WALL. Well, I get quite a few calls and the main reason I left
it was because Mr. Anderson, who was the manger of the hotel, hadn’t
decided what day to come back to work, Monday or Tuesday, therefore, I
needed to know so, therefore, I left the telephone number.
Mr. SPECTER. After you completed your telephone conversation with Jack
Ruby on that Saturday night, November 23, what did you do next?
Mr. WALL. As far as I can remember I had a sandwich and visited with
the folks for about 45 minutes, then went to bed because I was kind of
tired.
Mr. SPECTER. At what time did you awaken on Sunday morning, November 24?
Mr. WALL. I don’t know the precise time. I do know it was about—it
couldn’t have been more than 10 minutes before Jack shot Oswald because
I had just gotten up and walked in the bedroom and was watching it in
the folks’ bedroom, so whatever time Jack shot Oswald I was only up 10
minutes beforehand.
Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe on the television
screen at that time?
Mr. WALL. Nothing at all to relate it was Jack.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you know it was Jack at the time you saw the shooting
of Oswald?
Mr. WALL. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What part of the man did you see on the television screen?
Mr. WALL. It all happened so quick I didn’t see anything except I
understood Jack had been shot.
Mr. SPECTER. Understood who had been shot?
Mr. WALL. I’m sorry, that Oswald had been shot and that—I watched the
interview with the policeman saying he knew who it was but could not
say publicly who it was. We waited around and, I would say, within a
matter of 15 minutes they announced who it was. It seems to me that
quick.
Mr. SPECTER. And who did they announce that it was?
Mr. WALL. Jack Ruby, owner of a stripper club called the Carousel.
Mr. SPECTER. What was your reaction, if any, to that?
Mr. WALL. Well, it was a shock. That is all I can say. It was a real
shock.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do for the balance of that Sunday afternoon?
Mr. WALL. Well, I would say within 30 minutes to an hour we received
a call from the Washington Post representative who, I believe, was in
Dallas at the time.
Mr. SPECTER. How did that representative of the Washington Post happen
to call you?
Mr. WALL. I have no idea.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know what his name was?
Mr. WALL. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you say to him, if anything?
Mr. WALL. Well, I was still in shock. I told him that I had talked to
Jack over the telephone and he asked what we had said and I told him
and he said: “Well, can you tell me a little about him?” And I was at
that time having an argument with Mr. Peterson on what to do, you know,
keep your mouth shut, or, you know, say what you had to say.
Mr. SPECTER. What was Mr. Peterson’s view?
Mr. WALL. He said to keep my mouth shut, he did not want to get
involved in any way, and that the right people would come to us and for
us not to say anything so——
Mr. SPECTER. What was your view about that subject?
Mr. WALL. Well, I didn’t know. I don’t know. I can’t remember. I would
say mine was the same way. I was kind of scared, to be honest.
Mr. SPECTER. Why were you scared?
Mr. WALL. Just when people start calling you long distance you get
seared. You don’t want to get involved in anything, particularly if you
didn’t have anything to do with it. Then the next telephone call we
got was from Dick Hitt, who is a man on the—a columnist for the Dallas
Times Herald who knew I was a very close friend.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you known Mr. Hitt before that telephone call?
Mr. WALL. Oh, yes; ever since I have been in Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER. What did Mr. Hitt say to you?
Mr. WALL. He wanted to know about—he wanted me to talk to his editor
or someone about Jack, to find out what kind of a person he was and
everything.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to his editor?
Mr. WALL. We did but very coldly. Joe talked to the editor.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to him?
Mr. WALL. I talked to Dick Hitt but whenever they called back the man
called back and said: “Dick Hitt said for me to call you.” Joe got on
the phone and said: “No, I don’t know anything.” I have a correction to
make. The first call that we received was from the Dallas Morning News.
The second call we got was from the Washington Post and the last call
we got was from Dick Hitt.
Mr. SPECTER. Who called you from the Dallas Morning News?
Mr. WALL. I would say right now as far as I can remember it was Hugh
Ainsworth because he also knew I was a very good friend of Jack’s.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the content of the conversation between you and
Mr. Ainsworth?
Mr. WALL. The conversation was that Jack had called me and—Hugh and
I were good speaking friends. Not close friends, but we had talked a
great deal—of course, this being the first person I had talked to that
had also known Jack, we were just in a conversation. I told him: “Yes,
I had received a call,” you know, I was sort of outspoken in discussing
it with Hugh. Joe got kind of angry and said we should not meddle in
any way at all and so the Washington Post called after that and we were
sort of cool and when Dick Hitt called we said we knew nothing.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you receive any other telephone calls?
Mr. WALL. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone calls on that Sunday?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you call?
Mr. WALL. I called Nancy Austin, who is a performer in our show, to
find out how to get hold of Phil Burleson.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was Phil Burleson?
Mr. WALL. He was my attorney.
Mr. SPECTER. How long had he been your attorney?
Mr. WALL. Since I arrived in Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was the purpose of your wanting to get Mr.
Burleson’s telephone number?
Mr. WALL. Well, Phil also knew Jack and I wanted to see if he was going
to represent Jack or if he could or wanted to or to see if he could get
in to see Jack to see what was going on.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did you do that?
Mr. WALL. Well, as I say, I was in shock. I was upset because I liked
Jack very much. He has been a very good friend of ours even with our
ups and downs. Just to make sure everything was all right. To find out
what was going on.
Mr. SPECTER. Had anybody requested you to contact an attorney on behalf
of Jack Ruby?
Mr. WALL. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. That thought came to you on your own initiative?
Mr. WALL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you discuss it with Mr. Peterson?
Mr. WALL. Yes; I think so.
Mr. SPECTER. What did Mr. Peterson say about that telephone call?
Mr. WALL. It was fine with him. The main thing that Joe objected to,
he did not want to be in print about saying anything or doing anything
that would jeopardize our position at the Adolphus Hotel.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you know that Jack Ruby had other attorneys who
represented him regularly?
Mr. WALL. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he have any other attorney, to your knowledge?
Mr. WALL. I have never known him to have any attorney at all.
Mr. SPECTER. That is prior to the time of the shooting of Oswald?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any other telephone calls on that Sunday?
Mr. WALL. Well, any other phone calls I would have made would have been
to cast members.
Mr. SPECTER. For what purpose?
Mr. WALL. To tell them that we still didn’t know we were going to do
the show or anything about it, just be prepared to come in Monday,
Tuesday, Wednesday, whenever they were notified.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall any other specific calls you made on that
Sunday, November 24?
Mr. WALL. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do the balance of the day?
Mr. WALL. Watched television.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you go to sleep that night?
Mr. WALL. Late. It was very late.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have supper?
Mr. WALL. In the house.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you leave the house at all that Sunday?
Mr. WALL. No, sir; I didn’t go out at all.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arise on the following Monday?
Mr. WALL. I would say Monday night. I really don’t, to be honest
with you, I don’t know what time I arrived back. I don’t know if we
performed Monday or Tuesday. From all recollection it was Tuesday we
performed. I don’t know. It could have been Tuesday afternoon that we
got back.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you go back to Dallas?
Mr. WALL. I don’t remember, sir, now what day it was we left.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you seen Jack Ruby after the shooting of Oswald?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you see him?
Mr. WALL. It was the first Saturday or the second Saturday after the
assassination I was in the hotel room watching the football game and it
was in the afternoon and Sheriff Bill Decker called me and said that
Jack was very depressed and needed some cheering up and wanted to know
if I would come down, so I went down.
Mr. SPECTER. How long after Sheriff Decker’s call did you arrive at the
jail?
Mr. WALL. I would say between half an hour and 45 minutes.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay at the jail?
Mr. WALL. I would say about 20 minutes, maybe.
Mr. SPECTER. State as specifically as you can recollect the nature of
your conversation with Jack Ruby indicating what he said to you and
what you said to him?
Mr. WALL. Well, I wasn’t the only person there. There were two other
people there, one man I don’t know—I have seen him around before.
The other man was, I’m sure you have it in your records, he was the
partner of Jack in the club who tried to run it after Jack had shot
Oswald. I can’t think of the man’s name.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the first name of either of those men?
Mr. WALL. No, sir; I don’t. I know them by face.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there anyone else present besides the four of you?
Mr. WALL. No, sir; except for the two policemen that were inside the
tank where Jack was. He was inside the tank.
Mr. SPECTER. What conversation ensued while you were present with Mr.
Ruby?
Mr. WALL. Well, the main thing Jack brought out was he thought himself
correct in shooting Oswald.
Mr. SPECTER. For what reason?
Mr. WALL. A far as I can remember he didn’t give a reason. He just
said, you know. “I was right in doing it.”
Mr. SPECTER. Did any one disagree with him?
Mr. WALL. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Why not?
Mr. WALL. Well, they just didn’t say anything against him. I can’t
remember the incident too well. I do know that Jack was very upset and
the two men, on the outside, didn’t argue with him at all in anything
that he said, and they said they wouldn’t. I remember them making the
comment to each other they weren’t going to upset him, and whatever
he said they would just nod yes to and would agree with; they weren’t
going to get him upset.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you say to Jack, if anything?
Mr. WALL. I talked to him about Phil.
Mr. SPECTER. Phil who?
Mr. WALL. Burleson. “I was wondering if Phil came up to see you,” and,
“I asked him to come up,” and “If you can get him to represent you as
one of the attorneys,” and everything. “I think it would be very good
for you since he was at one time the assistant district attorney.” I
said, “I think he would do a good job for you. He is very honest, very
aboveboard,” and Jack said, “Yes, he came to see me and I think he
would do well and I would like to use him if I can.” Then I asked him
how they were treating him in jail and he said how nice they were to
him and he asked me what I was doing. I told him I was watching the
football game and Sheriff Decker said I could come down and see him.
Then he asked me specifically did I want to get involved in the case in
any way, or something like that, and I told him under the circumstances
please don’t ever use our name or anything. It’s not that I didn’t like
him. It was just that it might ruin our careers that we worked very
hard for. He gave me his word he would never use us, say anything about
us in any publication or anything. This was very true. While we were in
Houston he needed money and wrote an article for a series of newspapers
and he stated in the article, toward the end he made a call to Joe
Feder and Beck Wald, which I thought was very nice of him and all the
other circumstances in the article that I could see he used the names
of the people.
Mr. SPECTER. Joe Feder was really Joe Peterson?
Mr. WALL. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And Beck Wald was really you?
Mr. WALL. Me; yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you recollect anything more about the conversation
that you had at the jail on the Saturday you refer to?
Mr. WALL. No, sir. It was the first time I had seen him since the
assassination and it was just, you know, kind of strange meeting. There
wasn’t any fun in it at all, you know, like laughs. Sheriff Decker told
me he wanted to be cheered up. It was not like that at all. It was a
very sad thing.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever seen Jack Ruby since?
Mr. WALL. No, sir; I have gotten a few letters from Jack.
Mr. SPECTER. How many?
Mr. WALL. I would say about three.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did he write to you?
Mr. WALL. From the jail.
Mr. SPECTER. And where were you when you received those letters?
Mr. WALL. In—I think I received two in Dallas and I would say one in
Houston, and they were very simple letters, just how he was feeling
and, you know, what he was doing.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you respond?
Mr. WALL. Yes; I wrote him back and told him what we were doing and how
we were doing and I hoped he was well.
Mr. SPECTER. How many times did you write to him?
Mr. WALL. Maybe three or four times. I don’t know. I do remember
another thing we discussed while he was in the jail. He said he was
writing—I remember two things—he was writing down his memoirs and
wanted to do it into a story form and would I be interested in doing it
for him. I told him I would see. And the other thing he mentioned to
me is he had received a lot of telegrams and letters from all over the
country saying he was correct in doing what he did, or he was wrong in
doing what he did, or whatever it was. He was getting so many in he had
no way of writing them back. He wanted to thank each and every one for
writing to him and wanted to know if I would correspond with them on
behalf of him and that is when I said, “I would rather not get involved
in any way and you can understand why.” And he said, “Yes, I do.”
Mr. SPECTER. Have you had any other contacts at all with Jack Ruby
after November 24, 1963?
Mr. WALL. Only through corresponding letters.
Mr. SPECTER. You have now mentioned all of the contacts you have had
with him?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Going back to November 21——
Mr. WALL. I have one. I’m sorry. I do have one. As I said, Phil
Burleson is Joe’s and my attorney and, therefore, I would go see Phil
every once in awhile just to give Jack a message of hello, that we
are thinking of him, and to see how he was. We were all right and
everything. I did ask Phil to do this for me. Every once in awhile I
would do it.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now related all of the contacts you have had with
Ruby since November 24, 1963?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Going back to November 21, the day before the
assassination in 1963, did you have occasion to talk by telephone to
Tom McKenna on that day?
Mr. WALL. The day before?
Mr. SPECTER. The assassination?
Mr. WALL. No, sir; not at all unless it was about football. I am a
football fanatic. It was the day before. This would be Thursday, right?
Mr. SPECTER. Would it refresh your recollection if I said you had a
telephone call with him at about 6:50 on that day?
Mr. WALL. No, sir; it wouldn’t because I call him quite frequently.
I just made a telephone call to him day before yesterday. Unless it
was just to say hello and everything. We did not decide to go down to
Galveston until that afternoon, the day after the assassination.
Mr. SPECTER. How long have you known Edward Parker of Fort Worth?
Mr. WALL. Eddie Parker is—came to work for us for Bottoms Up at the
Adolphus and he would help in costume changes and setting up the props.
We had a portable stage which he would set up and get everything ready
before the show would start. That would be about a year and a half, but
we performed at the Playbill Club, we performed a show which he also
helped us in, called Razzmataz was the name of the show.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall telephoning him on October 1st, 3d, and 4th,
1963?
Mr. WALL. No, sir; I would call him in any respect to the show. The
only reason I would have anything to do with him would be to tell him
whether we would do a television show, needed him there and needed Carl
Tressler, who was in our show. They are roommates. Anytime I would call
them would be in reference to the show.
Mr. SPECTER. You already mentioned you called him on November 22.
Mr. WALL. To tell him probably that the show had been canceled.
Mr. SPECTER. At about what time was that call made, if you recall?
Mr. WALL. Well, it would probably be around, I would say, 1 or 2
o’clock. As soon as Mr. Anderson told us we would not perform that
night or Saturday.
Mr. SPECTER. Could it have been as late as 6 that evening?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; it could have been as I was going out of town to
tell him I was leaving and would be in Galveston; if they needed to get
hold of me to call the operator.
Mr. SPECTER. But you didn’t go to Galveston on Friday, November 22, did
you?
Mr. WALL. No, sir; that was just to tell him we were not going to do a
show that night.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know a Patricia Farmer?
Mr. WALL. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know a Clarence Vought?
Mr. WALL. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What relatives, if any, does Tom McKenna have in Dallas?
Mr. WALL. The only one that would be there would be his son who is 18
years old, George McKenna, who was working on a construction job at the
Republic National Bank.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know R. D. Matthews?
Mr. WALL. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Jack Ruby knew anybody by the name of
R. D. Matthews?
Mr. WALL. Only if that was the man I couldn’t think of in the previous
statement. I said I knew their faces but not their names, but the name
doesn’t ring a bell at all.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Jack Ruby’s trip to Cuba?
Mr. WALL. I have never heard of anything like that at all.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anybody by the name of Henry Atcheson,
A-t-c-h-e-s-o-n, or Henry Acteson, A-c-t-e-s-o-n?
Mr. WALL. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone call from the Adolphus Hotel to
anyone in Canada during March of 1964?
Mr. WALL. I can’t remember ever calling Canada. As I stated before to
you the only one that I ever knew in Canada was Kay Sutton, who was a
performer in our show who was somewhere in Canada.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know James F. Mahon?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; he is my attorney, too.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make a call to him on November 23, that is
Saturday after the assassination?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; possibly.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of that call, if I may ask?
Mr. WALL. Well, to find out, possibly, if he knew anything about Jack;
to see if he was going to represent Jack or anything. He also knew Jack
Ruby.
Mr. SPECTER. This was the day before the shooting of Oswald?
Mr. WALL. Well, it could be any business thing. Phil handled most of
our things but as things stand right now Jim Mahon handles everything
for us, our bookkeeping and everything, so it could have been anything
at all.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any other calls on November 23, 1963, if you
can remember?
Mr. WALL. The 23d was——
Mr. SPECTER. That is Saturday.
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; I could have called any number of people.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make a call to RI 8-1434?
Mr. WALL. That number—that could have been Jim Mahon.
Mr. SPECTER. Was Jim Mahon’s number Riverside 8-4361 or do you recall?
Mr. WALL. No; that is his number. I do know—Riverside, 1434, I don’t
know, sir. I’m sure I placed quite a few calls that day. I talked to a
lot of people.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever have a financial interest with Jack Ruby in
the Sovereign Club?
Mr. WALL. No, sir; not as far as putting in our own money at all; only
that we would retain a percentage of the club.
Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by “retain a percentage of the club”?
Mr. WALL. For doing our shows there because we only received a small
salary, as I said, $125 a week. He said he would give us a portion of
the club.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you mean a percentage of the gross receipts or a
percentage of the net receipts?
Mr. WALL. I mean a percent of the club, period.
Mr. SPECTER. Half ownership in the club?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that ever formalized into a written contract?
Mr. WALL. As far as I know it was, sir, but I don’t remember where the
papers are. I think they were destroyed in the fire at the Playbill
Club.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever get such an interest in the Sovereign Club?
Mr. WALL. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been interviewed by the Federal Bureau
of Investigation or any other other Federal agency regarding your
connection with Jack Ruby?
Mr. WALL. I have never been called into an office and interviewed
at all. Possibly there were some men who came by and asked me a few
questions but I can’t remember it. It was that vague. I do know Joe
Peterson was interviewed by some representatives of the FBI.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you think you may have been interviewed by the FBI, but
you are not sure?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever tell the FBI anything about Ruby’s telephone
call on the night of November 23 to you in Galveston?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir; if they interviewed me I definitely told them about
it because it was very important.
Mr. SPECTER. But you are just not sure whether or not they interviewed
you?
Mr. WALL. I will tell you, things happened so fast. I definitely
remember Joe came back and said, “Two representatives want to talk to
you,” but I don’t remember ever talking to them.
Mr. SPECTER. You don’t have any specific recollection of ever talking
to them or telling them about that telephone call from Jack Ruby on
Saturday, November 23?
Mr. WALL. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Wall, did you and I have a brief interview before this
deposition started today?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And during the course of that interview did I ask you the
outline of the questions which we have covered here on the record?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And were your answers the same as you told me here this
afternoon?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be
helpful in any way to the President’s Commission?
Mr. WALL. Well, the only thing that I stated to you before is that
previously I said that Jack and Joe got into a fight when he blew his
stack but then on the other hand there was a time when we needed $300
very desperately and Jack in a matter of 10 minutes went over and got
a loan on his own car for us so that the man does have feelings and he
can flare up in 5 minutes and then forget about it, you know. I can’t,
but he is one type of person who can. You never know what he is going
to do next.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Ralph Paul?
Mr. WALL. That was the name of the gentleman who was visiting Jack at
the same time I was that I could not remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Aside from that time in the jail have you ever talked to
Ralph Paul?
Mr. WALL. Very, very little. Jack at one time has taken Joe and I
to a bowling alley—I remember Ralph Paul was along—and took us for
breakfast. We bowled a game but I still didn’t say seven or eight words
to the man. I was very friendly but I still didn’t say anything to him.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any effort to telephone Ralph Paul anytime on
November 22 or 23?
Mr. WALL. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Or November 24?
Mr. WALL. No, sir. I wouldn’t even know how to get ahold of the man.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Wall, if you wish, we can make available the typed-up
copy of this deposition for you to read and sign, or if you are
willing, you can waive that signature which means that you will not
read and sign the transcript. Do you have any preference on the subject?
Mr. WALL. I will do whatever is the easiest, for you all and the best
way.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you willing then to waive your reading and signature?
Mr. WALL. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine. We appreciate that. We will then accept your waiver.
It may or may not be made available for you to read and sign. Thank you
very much for your appearing here today.
TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH ALEXANDER PETERSON
The testimony of Joseph Alexander Peterson was taken at 3:45 p.m., on
August 5, 1964, at the U.S. Post Office Building, 301 Stewart Street,
Las Vegas, Nev., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the
President’s Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show present at this time is Mr. Joseph
Peterson. Mr. Peterson, the President’s Commission on the Assassination
of President Kennedy has asked you to appear so that we may take your
deposition concerning any knowledge you have of Mr. Jack Ruby, his
activities during the period around the assassination of President
Kennedy, and any of his associates. With that preliminary statement of
purpose, would you stand up and raise your right hand, please?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this
proceeding before the President’s Commission shall be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. PETERSON. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name?
Mr. PETERSON. Joseph Alexander Peterson.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever been known by any other name?
Mr. PETERSON. Joseph Jablonka.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that the name under which you were born, sir?
Mr. PETERSON. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. You say that has been legally changed?
Mr. PETERSON. Legally changed. My stepfather’s name is Walter Peterson.
Mr. SPECTER. When was your name changed from Jablonka to Peterson?
Mr. PETERSON. November 1965. I remember that well because that was when
I was married.
Mr. SPECTER. November of what?
Mr. PETERSON. 19—excuse me, 1946.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your birthday?
Mr. PETERSON. February 14, 1924.
Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born?
Mr. PETERSON. Brooklyn, NY.
Mr. SPECTER. Where have you lived since the time you were born?
Mr. PETERSON. Let’s see, now. I have lived in Flatbush, Rogers Avenue,
649 Rogers Avenue, and——
Mr. SPECTER. Until when?
Mr. PETERSON. Wait a minute. Before that, 280 19th Street, Brooklyn,
N.Y.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Brooklyn altogether?
Mr. PETERSON. The family; all our lives. Me, I went in the service,
came out, went to Jacksonville, Fla.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you live in Brooklyn until you went into the service?
Mr. PETERSON. Right.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you go into the service?
Mr. PETERSON. 1941.
Mr. SPECTER. How long were you in the service?
Mr. PETERSON. 1945.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live after leaving the service?
Mr. PETERSON. 1946 I went to—back home.
Mr. SPECTER. Brooklyn?
Mr. PETERSON. Right.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Brooklyn after 1946?
Mr. PETERSON. Let’s see. I guess a period about up until 1950.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live after 1950?
Mr. PETERSON. New Orleans.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in New Orleans?
Mr. PETERSON. Three years.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live after that?
Mr. PETERSON. Jacksonville, Fla. No; wait a minute. I didn’t go to
Jacksonville, Fla. I visited Jacksonville, went to New Orleans, then
from New Orleans, Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER. When?
Mr. PETERSON. 1950, 1951, 1952.
Mr. SPECTER. Let’s go back to 1950. You were living in Brooklyn at that
time?
Mr. PETERSON. Just before that.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go then in 1950?
Mr. PETERSON. To New Orleans. Now, approximately—probably it was the
end of 1950 because 1951 was so close.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in New Orleans?
Mr. PETERSON. Two and a half to three years, and then I went to Dallas,
Tex. I lived there ever since.
Mr. SPECTER. In what year did you move to Dallas?
Mr. PETERSON. About the end of 1953 or 1954.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live thereafter in Dallas, Tex.?
Mr. PETERSON. Up to now. I went to—let’s see, now. I went to Houston
with the show last February. Up until last February I was in Dallas,
Tex. I was in the show in Houston, February, March, April, May,
June-January, February, March, then came here.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your occupation at the present time?
Mr. PETERSON. Producer.
Mr. SPECTER. Of what?
Mr. PETERSON. Coproducer of musical shows with Breck Wall.
Mr. SPECTER. Where are you employed right now?
Mr. PETERSON. Castaways Casino.
Mr. SPECTER. Here in Las Vegas?
Mr. PETERSON. Right. In Las Vegas.
Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been in show business?
Mr. PETERSON. Since about 1959.
Mr. SPECTER. How long have you known Mr. Breck Wall?
Mr. PETERSON. Since 1959.
Mr. SPECTER. How long, if at all, did you know Jack Ruby?
Mr. PETERSON. I knew Jack Ruby—let me think, now. Probably it was the
last part of 1961 and we did one show there at his club. I believe it
was 1961. I’m trying to figure. We went back to the Adolphus in 1962.
It was probably in 1961.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say “one show,” what do you mean by that?
Mr. PETERSON. Did a musical revue called Sticks and Stones there.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did that last?
Mr. PETERSON. Lasted about 2 or 3 months, I guess. We had problems.
Mr. SPECTER. What problems did you have?
Mr. PETERSON. Well, a lot of disagreements. At the time Jack was
changing the club from a—he was reopening it. It was called the
Sovereign. He was making it into a private club. He wanted to do
something different. We were successful across the street with our
revue. He talked to us about putting the show up there, going 50-50 on
a business basis with the club which we never received anything about.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever enter into an agreement with Jack Ruby
wherein you were to have a 50-50 interest in it?
Mr. PETERSON. Yes; this was written up with Vic Victorson, his attorney.
Mr. SPECTER. Victorson?
Mr. PETERSON. Yes; Victor Victorson.
Mr. SPECTER. How do you spell that?
Mr. PETERSON. Victorson.
Mr. SPECTER. V-i-c-t-o-r-s-o-n?
Mr. PETERSON. Yes; the agreement was with him. It never held up though.
We got nothing.
Mr. SPECTER. You never received any interest in the club?
Mr. PETERSON. Not a thing.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever endeavor to enforce that agreement?
Mr. PETERSON. Yes; the only thing we ever got out of it was through a
loan. I think Breck borrowed $300 to go to New York on a business trip.
That is all the money we received out of it.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever try to make Jack Ruby live up to the
agreement in any other way?
Mr. PETERSON. There was no use. Jack Ruby, in spite of our
disagreements, he was kind of good natured in a way. The best thing to
do was to bow out quietly.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you first meet Jack Ruby in approximately September
1961, when you played “Sticks and Stones”?
Mr. PETERSON. About that time; a little before that he came up to visit
us at the club.
Mr. SPECTER. When was that?
Mr. PETERSON. September of 1960. Sometime around in there. He came up
like a lot of club owners do. I think when we reopened the club he came
up and visited us. We were introduced to him as Jack Ruby. That was all.
Mr. SPECTER. After you terminated your business relationship with him
when the show “Sticks and Stones” ended, how frequently, if at all, did
you see him thereafter?
Mr. PETERSON. He came and visited us quite a lot at the Century Room.
He would come in when he had guests, big-shot type of thing, wanted to
be recognized. He was very nice.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have a cordial relationship notwithstanding your
prior difficulties?
Mr. PETERSON. Right; right. Like I say, it was best to keep everything
on a hello-goodbye basis.
Mr. SPECTER. How frequently did you see him after 1962?
Mr. PETERSON. Well, normally, like bump into him. It was only across
the street. We were living at the Adolphus. Back and forth. It’s hard
to tell how many times.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever have any more business dealings with him?
Mr. PETERSON. No; once we went into bankruptcy, Breck and I, and like
when all friendship failed we went to Jack Ruby and he came through. He
was real fine. Loaned us money. We paid him back.
Mr. SPECTER. How much money did he loan you?
Mr. PETERSON. It wasn’t exactly a loan. It was a thing, holding on
costumes we had for the show. It was $400.
Mr. SPECTER. To your knowledge did Jack Ruby have any association with
any of the criminal elements?
Mr. PETERSON. Well, if you want to go by hearsay, yes; but actually I
don’t know of any. In fact he was in thicker with the police in Dallas
than anybody else I knew of because they were always in his place.
Mr. SPECTER. What hearsay are you referring to?
Mr. PETERSON. I am talking about any hearsay. Because of his character
automatically people would take him as a thug.
Mr. SPECTER. What aspect of his character would cause people to do that?
Mr. PETERSON. Outward appearance.
Mr. SPECTER. Anything besides outward appearance?
Mr. PETERSON. No; Jack, in spite of our differences, he was a nice, a
good man.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see him associate with any of the criminal
element personally?
Mr. PETERSON. No; no.
Mr. SPECTER. To your knowledge was Jack Ruby a member of any
organization which advocated the forceful overthrow of the U.S.
Government?
Mr. PETERSON. No.
Mr. SPECTER. To your knowledge was any member of his family a member of
any such organization?
Mr. PETERSON. I know nothing about his family except I had met his
sister.
Mr. SPECTER. To your knowledge were any of his friends or associates
members of any subversive organization?
Mr. PETERSON. No; not to my knowledge.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you see Jack Ruby most recently prior to November
22, 1963?
Mr. PETERSON. I guess it was before we went to Galveston. Sometime
before then. I couldn’t peg it down. I’m sure we saw him. Like I say,
we saw him on the street there. Next thing was the call and that was it.
Mr. SPECTER. You don’t recall seeing him specifically on any special
date prior to the day of the assassination?
Mr. PETERSON. No; I don’t.
Mr. SPECTER. But you do think, in a general way, you must have seen him
because he was in the area?
Mr. PETERSON. Right.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the day of the assassination?
Mr. PETERSON. Oh, yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Tell me as specifically as you can recollect what you did
on that day?
Mr. PETERSON. Well, there was going to be the parade. We went down and
stood on the marquee of the Adolphus Hotel. We were there with some
newspaper people we knew and everybody at the hotel. The President
passed by. We came back in the lobby. Next thing we knew we heard on
the television he had been shot. That was it.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next; if anything?
Mr. PETERSON. As well as I can remember either we called or went
upstairs, told the rest of the kids in the cast, those that weren’t
out. Just astonishment. Everybody was in the lobby just moving around.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you leave the hotel on that day?
Mr. PETERSON. No.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you go to sleep that night, if you recall?
Mr. PETERSON. Well, that night we didn’t have a show. I don’t believe
we had a show. No; we didn’t have a show that night. They canceled it
for three nights. That is when we went to Galveston.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you go to Galveston specifically?
Mr. PETERSON. Let me think. When was the 22d? What day was that?
Mr. SPECTER. The 22d was a Friday.
Mr. PETERSON. It was that night.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you go to Galveston Friday or Saturday?
Mr. PETERSON. I’m not sure whether it was Friday or Saturday because
they canceled the show. I think it might have been the next day. I
don’t know. I could not be sure.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect what you did next day before you went to
Galveston; if in fact it was that day you went to Galveston?
Mr. PETERSON. The next day before we went to Galveston?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes; you have told me—let’s go back to Friday. You told me
you stayed around the hotel the balance of that day.
Mr. PETERSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Then you say you went to Galveston either Friday or
Saturday?
Mr. PETERSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Tell me, to the best of your recollection, everything that
you did before you went to Galveston from the time of the assassination
on.
Mr. PETERSON. Well, we stayed at the hotel, found out if they were
going to have a show; that is why I think it was Friday now, asking
Andy Anderson. I think we picked up and left that night.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone calls that day?
Mr. PETERSON. Breck might have called his mother in Galveston. I don’t
know.
Mr. SPECTER. What are the names of the people you refer to as his
mother and father?
Mr. PETERSON. Mr. and Mrs. Tom McKenna.
Mr. SPECTER. They are not his real parents though?
Mr. PETERSON. No; they raised him.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make a phone call to Emerson 1-4534 on the day of
the assassination?
Mr. PETERSON. Emerson 1-4534. Who was it? I don’t remember the number.
Mr. SPECTER. I am not able to give that to you, Mr. Peterson.
Mr. PETERSON. Well, then I can’t remember that.
Mr. SPECTER. How about Riverside 2-6811?
Mr. PETERSON. Riverside 2-6811? I don’t know that number either.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall any telephone calls which you made on
November 22 or 23?
Mr. PETERSON. No; like I say, the only calls I probably made were
around the hotel.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive at Galveston; to the best of your
recollection?
Mr. PETERSON. If we left Friday it takes 4 hours. We probably left
about, maybe 5, 6. Got there about 11 or 12.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after arriving in Galveston?
Mr. PETERSON. Made ourselves at home like we always do.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was there when you arrived?
Mr. PETERSON. Mr. and Mrs. McKenna; the family.
Mr. SPECTER. Anybody besides Mr. and Mrs. McKenna?
Mr. PETERSON. No; I don’t think so. I don’t remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone calls from Galveston?
Mr. PETERSON. I don’t think so.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Wall make any telephone calls?
Mr. PETERSON. Somebody called us, newspaper people, I think, out of
Washington, some magazine wanted to know some stuff, I think.
Mr. SPECTER. What magazine was that?
Mr. PETERSON. I have no idea. Some newspaper.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall specifically the name of the man who called
you?
Mr. PETERSON. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to him?
Mr. PETERSON. I think I did. Yes; I did talk to him. That is why I
remember. I’m trying to think.
Mr. SPECTER. To the best of your recollection tell me specifically what
you said to him and what he said to you?
Mr. PETERSON. Well, just wanted to know—let me see. Was it there or
was it at the hotel? They wanted a—Time, I think it was Time, or Life,
because the man in Life is located in Dallas. He just wanted to know if
we had any pictures with Jack Ruby or anything we had done for a story.
I told him we did not have anything. Didn’t bother with it.
Mr. SPECTER. While you were in Galveston did you receive any other
telephone calls?
Mr. PETERSON. Yes; I’m trying to think. Somebody from some newspaper;
I believe it was in Washington. Some magazine or some newspaper. Breck
probably will remember better than I do. He has a better memory. They
wanted some information on Jack Ruby. I couldn’t give them any.
Mr. SPECTER. Aside from that call, did Breck Wall receive any telephone
call while you were in Galveston?
Mr. PETERSON. I think he did.
Mr. SPECTER. From whom?
Mr. PETERSON. Well, the only one was from Jack Ruby.
Mr. SPECTER. Tell me about that call?
Mr. PETERSON. Jack was very upset about——
Mr. SPECTER. When did it come in?
Mr. PETERSON. It was in the evening some time.
Mr. SPECTER. What day?
Mr. PETERSON. On the day before.
Mr. SPECTER. Before what?
Mr. PETERSON. Assassination.
Mr. SPECTER. Before the assassination or before the shooting of Oswald?
Mr. PETERSON. Before the shooting of Oswald. I’m getting them both
mixed up. It was the day before Oswald’s assassination, or murder,
whatever you want to call it. Jack called and was very upset about the
assassination.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to Ruby on that?
Mr. PETERSON. I don’t think I did. I think Breck did.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Breck Wall relate to you what that conversation was
about?
Mr. PETERSON. The call would have been Saturday. We went down there
Friday. That is when it was.
Mr. SPECTER. What was that telephone conversation between Jack Ruby and
Breck Wall all about?
Mr. PETERSON. What I just told you. Breck kind of soothed him a little
bit. Nothing you could do. All this baloney. Well, it happened, you
know.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Ruby said anything about intending to
do anything?
Mr. PETERSON. No; not to my knowledge. He didn’t relate that to me.
Just he was very upset. Very sick; crying and all of that. That was it.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other subject discussed between Ruby and
Breck Wall?
Mr. PETERSON. No; Jack was very close to us. He made himself close
to us, you know. We were always in the headlines. Always in the
newspapers. We were very good friends with a lot of people in Dallas.
He kind of tried to keep up with us, you know, close. Anytime he had
any problems or things like that he always came to talk to us about it,
or ideas for the club. He came to bug us about that, you know. We were
more or less successful in Dallas. Like I say; the best thing to do was
just be nice and kind of stay away as much as possible.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other telephone calls which you made or
which you received while you were in Galveston?
Mr. PETERSON. Not—I can’t remember right now. I just don’t remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Were there any other telephone calls which Breck Wall made
or received while the two of you were in Galveston?
Mr. PETERSON. He probably talked to Tony Zoppi.
Mr. SPECTER. Zoppi?
Mr. PETERSON. Zoppi; he is the amusement critic on the Dallas Morning
News. We are very close friends. He probably talked to him about that.
Mr. SPECTER. You don’t recall specifically? You presume that might have
have happened?
Mr. PETERSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Are there any other calls you know about while you were in
Galveston?
Mr. PETERSON. No.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you go back to Dallas?
Mr. PETERSON. Probably Tuesday. I think we went back Tuesday. We had a
show Tuesday. Ordinarily do. The show is closed for the weekend. It was
Tuesday when we went back; I’m pretty sure.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked to Jack Ruby after the day of the
shooting of Oswald?
Mr. PETERSON. No; I got a little, letters from him, note when he was in
jail.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you receive that note?
Mr. PETERSON. It was a few days after the FBI questioned us. He wrote
me a little thank you note because I spoke up for him. Like I am
telling you, he was all right in spite of him being no good, too.
Mr. SPECTER. When did the FBI question you?
Mr. PETERSON. When we were in Dallas. When we were working at the hotel.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the approximate date when they talked to you?
Mr. PETERSON. Possibly a week, 2 weeks after the Oswald——
Mr. SPECTER. Where were you then?
Mr. PETERSON. Living at the hotel.
Mr. SPECTER. Was the interview with the Federal Bureau of Investigation
conducted at your hotel?
Mr. PETERSON. Yes; it was at the hotel.
Mr. SPECTER. Who was present at that time?
Mr. PETERSON. I think it was Mr.—who is the head of the FBI in Dallas?
He was the one. Griffin. Griffith. I believe it was Griffith.
Mr. SPECTER. Was anybody with him?
Mr. PETERSON. There was somebody else sitting at the table. I’m not
sure who it was. Tony Zoppi; I believe.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Zoppi was present at the time of the interview?
Mr. PETERSON. I believe; he was either there before, after. Tony always
has breakfast there. We were all sitting at the table. Mr. Griffith
came over.
Mr. SPECTER. The special agent in charge there is Gordon Shanklin.
Mr. PETERSON. This was Mr. Griffith.
Mr. SPECTER. Was Mr. Shanklin present?
Mr. PETERSON. I don’t know.
Mr. SPECTER. Was Mr. Wall present at the time Mr. Griffith talked to
you?
Mr. PETERSON. I don’t know; he might have been. Seems to me three
people were at the table. I’m trying to recollect. Breck might have
been there. We eat breakfast together there usually. It was either
breakfast or lunch. I’m never sure which it is because we always get up
around 11 or 12.
Mr. SPECTER. When Mr. Griffith or Griffin interviewed you, did you tell
him about the telephone call that Jack Ruby made to Breck Wall?
Mr. PETERSON. Yes; we told him all that. In fact this is a little
clearer than that. Everything is a little fresher in my mind.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure you told him of that telephone call?
Mr. PETERSON. I don’t know if I did; I’m sure Breck did.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you present when Breck Wall talked to the FBI?
Mr. PETERSON. No; I don’t think so.
Mr. SPECTER. How can you say you are sure Breck Wall told him of the
telephone call?
Mr. PETERSON. Because Breck is very much in the habit of doing the
right thing.
Mr. SPECTER. So that would be your presumption he did?
Mr. PETERSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. You actually weren’t there when Breck Wall talked to the
FBI man?
Mr. PETERSON. I’m pretty sure I wasn’t.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether or not you personally told the agent
from the FBI about the telephone call from Ruby in Galveston?
Mr. PETERSON. I’m pretty sure I did.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you interviewed by the FBI more than once or once?
Mr. PETERSON. Just the once, although I felt like it was more than
once talking to them going up and down in the elevators, there were a
hundred of them there. Couldn’t miss them.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how Ruby knew how to call you in Galveston?
Mr. PETERSON. What he probably did was call the hotel and ask where we
were because we always left a telephone call where we were at.
Mr. SPECTER. Why do you do that?
Mr. PETERSON. It was our policy to do that. If they wanted to start the
show they had to know where we were at.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you find out Ruby had shot Oswald?
Mr. PETERSON. When we were watching TV.
Mr. SPECTER. Where?
Mr. PETERSON. Galveston; in McKenna’s home.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you recognize Ruby then?
Mr. PETERSON. Oh, yes.
Mr. SPECTER. You could recognize Ruby?
Mr. PETERSON. Couldn’t miss it.
Mr. SPECTER. What was your reaction on that?
Mr. PETERSON. Shock. Unbelievable, really.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Breck Wall called Phil Burleson from
Galveston that day?
Mr. PETERSON. I think he did.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of that call?
Mr. PETERSON. I have no idea.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he discuss it with you before he made the call?
Mr. PETERSON. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether he called Nancy Austin?
Mr. PETERSON. He probably called everybody up when that happened.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know specifically whether the call was to Nancy
Austin?
Mr. PETERSON. I think probably. Because of what he saw on the TV and
about the show.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Eddie Parker?
Mr. PETERSON. Oh, yes; he used to work for us backstage at the Adolphus.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he ever call him up?
Mr. PETERSON. Probably. In reference to the show because he had
connection with Tressler in the show.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Breck Wall call him up?
Mr. PETERSON. He probably did.
Mr. SPECTER. What was his purpose?
Mr. PETERSON. In regards to the show.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know a Patricia Farmer?
Mr. PETERSON. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know a Clarence Vought?
Mr. PETERSON. A lot of these people I might know when I see them. Breck
knows. He is good on names.
Mr. SPECTER. The name Clarence Vought doesn’t mean anything to you?
Mr. PETERSON. No.
Mr. SPECTER. What relatives, if any, does Tom McKenna have in Dallas?
Mr. PETERSON. I don’t know anything about them.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know R. D. Matthews?
Mr. PETERSON. No; I don’t remember. I might.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Jack Ruby’s trip to Cuba?
Mr. PETERSON. Nothing. Only thing I know about that is when I read it
later in the papers.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you know a man by the name of Henry Atcheson?
Mr. PETERSON. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Or Henry Acteson?
Mr. PETERSON. No. I am saying no to a lot of these. I may know them.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about a telephone call to Mr.
Atcheson or Mr. Acteson in Canada back in March of 1964?
Mr. PETERSON. That I made?
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever make such a call?
Mr. PETERSON. Not that I remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Breck Wall ever make such a call to your knowledge?
Mr. PETERSON. He might have. I don’t know. Canada? Only one thing we
had to do, that was a man who wanted to buy the show for one night and
fly us up there.
Mr. SPECTER. What was his name?
Mr. PETERSON. Wohl, W-o-h-l. He got in touch with us about a show.
Mr. SPECTER. What part of Canada was he from?
Mr. PETERSON. I don’t recollect right now.
Mr. SPECTER. What was his first name?
Mr. PETERSON. I think it was Jack.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he in Calgary, Alberta, Canada?
Mr. PETERSON. That is it. Calgary. Some organization. He was trying to
get us booked for this, whatever it was, that they celebrate.
Mr. SPECTER. Was his name Wall, W-a-l-l?
Mr. PETERSON. No; Breck Wall is my partner. This other was Wohl,
W-o-h-l.
Mr. SPECTER. Wall?
Mr. PETERSON. Maybe I’m spelling it wrong.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he with you in the Adolphus Hotel?
Mr. PETERSON. He comes to our hotel quite a lot.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he with you in March of 1964?
Mr. PETERSON. Well, he stayed there at the hotel. He saw a show two
or three times. He talked to us about the chance of booking a show in
Canada. He would get in touch with this organization he was with and
let us know, which he did by letter.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever work that deal out?
Mr. PETERSON. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Why not?
Mr. PETERSON. Well, it just never materialized.
Mr. SPECTER. How did he pronounce his name again?
Mr. PETERSON. Wohl, I believe it is.
Mr. SPECTER. Phonetically it sounds the same as W-a-l-l?
Mr. PETERSON. Right.
Mr. SPECTER. He was from Calgary, Alberta, Canada?
Mr. PETERSON. Yes. I’m pretty sure that is it. In fact I think we still
got that letter. I know it is W-o-h-l because I remarked on it, about
Breck Wall.
Mr. SPECTER. You say you still do have that letter?
Mr. PETERSON. I’m pretty sure.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you look for that and send it to me?
Mr. PETERSON. Sure. Sure.
Mr. SPECTER. Let me write my name and address down for you so you can
do that.
Mr. PETERSON. Fine. If I don’t have the letter we could get in touch
with the hotel. He always stays there. I’m sure they have records.
Mr. SPECTER. His first name was Jack?
Mr. PETERSON. I’m sure it was Jack; yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Here is my name and address in Washington.
Mr. PETERSON. He was connected with a big oil company.
Mr. SPECTER. If you can find that letter and send it to me, I would be
much obliged to you.
Mr. PETERSON. Sure.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do immediately after the assassination, if
you recall?
Mr. PETERSON. Well, we checked the hotel about the show.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you go down to the Texas School Book Depository
Building?
Mr. PETERSON. I think we did; ran down to take a look.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of that?
Mr. PETERSON. Curiosity.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that the only purpose?
Mr. PETERSON. Yes; along with a couple of thousand other people.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall what your reaction was when Breck Wall
received some telephone calls in Galveston from the Washington Post and
from the Dallas Morning News and the Dallas Times Herald?
Mr. PETERSON. That is it. Washington Post. Well, I got a little angry,
told him not to say anything over the phone until we got back home.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did you tell him not to say anything over the phone
until you got back home?
Mr. PETERSON. Well, you don’t know who you are talking to over the
phone.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any other reason in mind besides that?
Mr. PETERSON. No; not at all. The only one I could recognize was the
Dallas Morning News people we knew. That was fine, but anybody else, I
don’t know who we were talking to. A lot of nuts would be calling you
up.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you know anything about Mr. Ruby’s troubles with the
American Guild of Variety Artists?
Mr. PETERSON. Jack had all kinds of problems and troubles with unions
and everybody else. Jack was like every other struggling nightclub
owner who was trying to get along the cheapest way he could. That was
it.
Mr. SPECTER. Does the telephone number Riverside 8-1434 in Dallas mean
anything to you?
Mr. PETERSON. Let me see. No, I don’t know. Probably does, but I don’t
remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be
helpful to the President’s Commission in any way?
Mr. PETERSON. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Prior to the time when we went on the record here, Mr.
Peterson, did you and I have a very brief conversation concerning your
knowledge of Jack Ruby?
Mr. PETERSON. Yes; we did.
Mr. SPECTER. Have I covered those questions and a number of others
during the course of the deposition on the record?
Mr. PETERSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And is the information which you gave to me on the record
the same as what you told me off the record earlier?
Mr. PETERSON. Yes; what I could remember—wait a minute, now. You said
“before”——
Mr. SPECTER. We have covered, have we not——
Mr. PETERSON. Right.
Mr. SPECTER. Everything on the record which we covered before?
Mr. PETERSON. Right.
Mr. SPECTER. Under the rules of the President’s Commission, Mr.
Peterson, you have a right to read and to sign this deposition if you
want to. Do you want to do that or would you be willing to waive that
reading and signing?
Mr. PETERSON. Well, what does—do you want me to sign it? I will sign it.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any special interest in reading it and signing
it?
Mr. PETERSON. Well, I’d like to read it, then I will sign it. I have no
objection to signing it but I’d like to read what I’m signing.
Mr. SPECTER. That is fair enough. You did receive a letter from the
Commission?
Mr. PETERSON. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Informing you you had a right to counsel if you wanted one
here today?
Mr. PETERSON. Right. Right.
Mr. SPECTER. And the other rules and regulations concerning the
proceedings in depositions before the President’s Commission, did you
not?
Mr. PETERSON. Right.
Mr. SPECTER. And appearing here today was satisfactory with you as you
have appeared and testified without the representation of counsel?
Mr. PETERSON. Right.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. That concludes the deposition, then, Mr.
Peterson. We shall make available a copy of the transcript for you to
read and sign.
TESTIMONY OF HARRY N. OLSEN
The testimony of Harry N. Olsen was taken at 2:50 p.m., on August
6, 1964, at the U.S. Post Office Building, 312 North Spring Street,
Los Angeles, Calif., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the
President’s Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that this deposition proceeding of the
President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy is
being held at the U.S. Post Office Building, 312 North Spring Street,
Los Angeles, Calif., in room 644, which is the room customarily used
for the grand jury proceedings.
May the record further show that it is now 2:50 p.m. Pacific daylight
time on Thursday, August 6, 1964. Present is Mr. Harry Olsen, who
has appeared in response to a letter notification to appear for this
deposition.
Mr. Olsen, did you receive a letter from the President’s Commission
with an insertion of the Executive order creating the Commission and
the rules and regulations for taking of depositions?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And when did you receive that letter?
Mr. OLSEN. Five or six days ago.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you notice that there was a provision in the rules and
regulations that you could have counsel with you if you so desired at
the present time?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you wish to have counsel with you?
Mr. OLSEN. I don’t think it’s necessary.
Mr. SPECTER. Fine. The Commission has asked you to appear, Mr. Olsen,
in order to testify about any knowledge which you have concerning
Mr. Jack Ruby and the shooting of Mr. Lee Harvey Oswald and the
assassination of President Kennedy. With that preliminary statement of
purpose, I would like you to stand up and raise your right hand, if you
would.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in this
deposition proceeding before the President’s Commission shall be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Mr. OLSEN. Harry N. Olsen.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your address at the present time, Mr. Olsen?
Mr. OLSEN. 315 Obispo in Long Beach.
Mr. SPECTER. What is your date of birth?
Mr. OLSEN. February the 16, 1934.
Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born?
Mr. OLSEN. Wichita Falls, Tex.
Mr. SPECTER. Outline briefly your educational background.
Mr. OLSEN. Four years of high school, two and a half years of college.
Mr. SPECTER. What college did you attend?
Mr. OLSEN. Midwestern University.
Mr. SPECTER. And when did you leave Midwestern University?
Mr. OLSEN. 1954.
Mr. SPECTER. What were your activities after leaving Midwestern
University, by way of subsequent employment?
Mr. OLSEN. The Army, 1954 to 1956, and working for my Dad.
Mr. SPECTER. For how long did you work for your Dad?
Mr. OLSEN. Oh, since I was 16.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, from 1956 on how long did you work for him?
Mr. OLSEN. About a year.
Mr. SPECTER. What type of work was that?
Mr. OLSEN. Leather goods.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that in Wichita Falls, Tex.?
Mr. OLSEN. That was in Henrietta, Tex.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after terminating your employment with
your father in about 1957 then?
Mr. OLSEN. I went to Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was your occupation in Dallas?
Mr. OLSEN. A claims investigator for an insurance company.
Mr. SPECTER. How long were you so employed?
Mr. OLSEN. Oh, 7 or 8 months.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you next do for a living?
Mr. OLSEN. I worked for a finance company.
Mr. SPECTER. How long were you employed by the finance company?
Mr. OLSEN. About 8 months.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was your next occupation?
Mr. OLSEN. Dallas Police Department.
Mr. SPECTER. What was your rank in the police department?
Mr. OLSEN. Patrolman.
Mr. SPECTER. And how long were you employed by the Dallas Police
Department?
Mr. OLSEN. Five and a half years.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you end your employment with the Dallas Police
Department?
Mr. OLSEN. In the latter part of December, 1963.
Mr. SPECTER. And how were you employed after December of 1963?
Mr. OLSEN. I left Dallas and came to California and am working for a
collection agency.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you held that same job from the time you first
arrived here in Los Angeles until the present time?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you married or single, Mr. Olsen?
Mr. OLSEN. Married.
Mr. SPECTER. And what is the name of your wife?
Mr. OLSEN. Kay.
Mr. SPECTER. And what was her name prior to her marriage to you?
Mr. OLSEN. Kay Coleman.
Mr. SPECTER. What was her occupation prior to being married to you,
that is where was she employed?
Mr. OLSEN. She was employed at the Carousel Club.
Mr. SPECTER. When were you and Mrs. Kay Olsen married?
Mr. OLSEN. I believe it was December. It could have been January.
Mr. SPECTER. December of what year?
Mr. OLSEN. 1963, or January of 1964.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Jack Ruby?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you first become acquainted with Mr. Jack Ruby?
Mr. OLSEN. Oh, about 3 years ago.
Mr. SPECTER. What were the circumstances of your making his
acquaintance?
Mr. OLSEN. I was with the police department at the time and I was
working that area where his club was, and it was a routine check of his
place.
Mr. SPECTER. How did you and Jack Ruby get along during the time you
knew him?
Mr. OLSEN. We spoke. And sometimes he would get mad and I would talk to
him and calm him down a little bit.
Mr. SPECTER. How often did you visit Jack Ruby’s club, the Carousel
Club?
Mr. OLSEN. Oh, once a week, I guess. Sometimes more and sometimes less.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever have any disputes with Ruby?
Mr. OLSEN. Sometimes.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the cause of the disputes?
Mr. OLSEN. He would get mad with some of his help, some of his
employees mostly, or customers. And he was erratic and hotheaded.
Mr. SPECTER. What specific indications did you observe that he was
erratic or hotheaded?
Mr. OLSEN. Well, sometimes he would get so mad that he would shake.
Mr. SPECTER. What would cause him to get that mad?
Mr. OLSEN. Anything. I mean, he would just fly off the handle about
anything.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you give me a specific illustration of what caused him
on any occasion to become that angry?
Mr. OLSEN. Mostly with his help.
Mr. SPECTER. A moment ago you said that you had disagreements with him
over the way he treated his help. What was it about the way he treated
his help which caused you to have any disagreement with Jack Ruby?
Mr. OLSEN. Well, they would want to quit and he would get upset about
that.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that in relation only to Mrs. Kay Olsen who was an
employee of his, or did that apply to other employees as well?
Mr. OLSEN. Others.
Mr. SPECTER. Why was it that you were concerned about other employees?
Mr. OLSEN. He would talk to me about it and ask me what I thought, and
I would try to tell him to just calm down.
Mr. SPECTER. But as a result of those conversations with Ruby, you had
disagreements with him?
Mr. OLSEN. Not very often. Not very often.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you give me any other information as to what caused
any disagreement between you and Jack Ruby?
Mr. OLSEN. No, I can’t think of anything.
Mr. SPECTER. Where were you living in the fall of 1963, say in
September of 1963?
Mr. OLSEN. On Theatre Lane.
Mr. SPECTER. And where was Mrs. Kay Olsen, who was then not your wife,
living at that time?
Mr. OLSEN. On Ewing.
Mr. SPECTER. What was her specific address, if you recall?
Mr. OLSEN. 325 North Ewing, I believe.
Mr. SPECTER. What was your relationship with Kay in the fall of 1963?
Mr. OLSEN. We were going together.
Mr. SPECTER. Was she unmarried at that time?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Had she been married previously?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. When was her divorce final, if you know?
Mr. OLSEN. I don’t know.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you give me an approximate date as to when it was
final?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you tell me if it was a few months or a few years
before 1963?
Mr. OLSEN. I just don’t know. She might know.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you married or single in the fall of 1963?
Mr. OLSEN. I was single.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you been married prior to that time?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. When was your divorce final?
Mr. OLSEN. October of 1963.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you separated from your wife prior to October of 1963?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. When were you first separated from your former wife?
Mr. OLSEN. About 6 months before that.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you going with or steadily dating Kay, then, from
the early fall of 1963 on up until the time that you married her in
December of 1963, or January of 1964?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did Mr. Ruby live in the fall of 1963, say September
of 1963, if you know?
Mr. OLSEN. He lived on Ewing.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall——
Mr. OLSEN. Right at Stemmons Freeway.
Mr. SPECTER. How far was that from Kay’s house?
Mr. OLSEN. Approximately 4 or 5 blocks.
Mr. SPECTER. How far was Mr. Ruby’s residence from your residence?
Mr. OLSEN. Oh, boy. Oh, it was, I would guess, 2 or 3 miles.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever live only 1 block away from Mr. Ruby’s
residence?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Jack Ruby ever visit you at your apartment?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Jack Ruby ever visit Kay at her apartment?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. How many times did he visit Kay at her apartment?
Mr. OLSEN. I don’t know.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you give me an approximation?
Mr. OLSEN. Oh, seven or eight times.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you always present on those occasions?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of Jack Ruby’s visiting Kay?
Mr. OLSEN. Sometimes he would be mad about something, and mad at an
employee, or sometimes he would stop by for breakfast after he closed
his club.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there ever any romantic connection between Jack Ruby
and Kay?
Mr. OLSEN. Not to my knowledge.
Mr. SPECTER. It was just a cordial relationship which would lead him to
stop over and pay her a visit and have breakfast or something to that
effect?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Was Ruby friendly with many police officers employed by
the Dallas Police Department?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What were the circumstances surrounding his friendship for
police officers?
Mr. OLSEN. He seemed to like police officers.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason for his affinity for police
officers, or for liking them especially?
Mr. OLSEN. No, he just seemed to be friendly with all of them, wanted
to know them.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you know Officer J. D. Tippit?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you know him very well?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not Jack Ruby knew Officer J. D.
Tippit?
Mr. OLSEN. I heard that he did.
Mr. SPECTER. From whom did you hear that?
Mr. OLSEN. It was a rumor that he did.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you hear that rumor that he did know Officer
J. D. Tippit?
Mr. OLSEN. While talking with other officers. I couldn’t specifically
say when.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that after Tippit was killed?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever hear anybody say that Jack Ruby knew Officer
J. D. Tippit before Officer Tippit was killed?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Could you recall specifically who it was who said that
Ruby knew Officer Tippit?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Jack Ruby and Officer J. D. Tippit
together?
Mr. OLSEN. No, not that I recall.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, think about that for just a minute and then see if
you recollect anything more specifically on whether or not you ever saw
Jack Ruby and Officer J. D. Tippit together.
Mr. OLSEN. No, I don’t.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Jack Ruby ever do any favors for you, Mr. Olsen?
Mr. OLSEN. Well, like what?
Mr. SPECTER. Well, anything in a friendly way, such as do something you
asked him to do or something of that sort? Did you ever ask him to do
anything for you?
Mr. OLSEN. Well, I asked him to let Kay off sometimes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he honor that request?
Mr. OLSEN. Most of the time.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever ask him to do anything besides letting Kay
off on occasion?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall November 22, 1963, the day President Kennedy
was assassinated?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Tell me, as specifically as you can recollect, exactly
what your activities were on that day.
Mr. OLSEN. I was employed by the Dallas Police Department and I was
working at an extra job guarding an estate.
Mr. SPECTER. Whose estate was that?
Mr. OLSEN. I don’t remember the name.
Mr. SPECTER. How did you happen to get that extra job?
Mr. OLSEN. A motorcycle officer was related to this elderly woman and
he was doing work, but he was in the motor——
Mr. SPECTER. Cade?
Mr. OLSEN. Motorcade of the President, and I was off that day and able
to work it.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the name of the motorcycle officer?
Mr. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was that estate located?
Mr. OLSEN. On 8th Street in Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the specific address or the cross street on
which it was located?
Mr. OLSEN. It’s in the Oak Cliff area, it’s approximately two blocks
off of Stemmons.
Mr. SPECTER. How did it happen that you were not on duty with the
police department on the day President Kennedy was in town?
Mr. OLSEN. I had my leg in a cast and I was doing light duty, which
was working in the office, patrol office, and I had asked them if they
needed me to work that day and they said no.
Mr. SPECTER. What sort of an accident did you have to injure your leg?
Mr. OLSEN. I fell and broke my kneecap.
Mr. SPECTER. When did that occur?
Mr. OLSEN. Oh, several weeks before.
Mr. SPECTER. At what hospital were you treated?
Mr. OLSEN. Baylor Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. Is that in Dallas?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir; it’s on Gaston.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you start to guard the estate on that
particular Friday?
Mr. OLSEN. About 7 a.m.
Mr. SPECTER. And how long did that guard duty last?
Mr. OLSEN. Until about 8.
Mr. SPECTER. Eight p.m.?
Mr. OLSEN. P.m., yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any visitors while you were guarding the
estate on that day?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And who was the visitor or visitors?
Mr. OLSEN. Kay.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did she visit you?
Mr. OLSEN. Right after the President was shot.
Mr. SPECTER. How did you learn of the assassination of the President?
Mr. OLSEN. A woman called me on the phone who was a friend of the
person who had lived there.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know who that woman was?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir. And she wanted to know if I had heard the news, and
I said no and she said, “The President has been shot.”
Mr. SPECTER. What time did that telephone call occur?
Mr. OLSEN. Right after he was shot. I don’t know exactly what time it
was.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to anybody else on the telephone or in person
between the telephone call and the time that Kay visited you?
Mr. OLSEN. Passers-by. I went outside.
Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you see outside?
Mr. OLSEN. No one who I knew by name. They just said, “Have you heard
the news?” And I said, “Yes, I had.”
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any other telephone calls while you were
guarding that house?
Mr. OLSEN. I called the police department and asked them if they needed
me to work.
Mr. SPECTER. To whom did you talk at the police department?
Mr. OLSEN. I don’t recall.
Mr. SPECTER. What response did you get?
Mr. OLSEN. They said no.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did Kay visit you on that Friday?
Mr. OLSEN. In the afternoon sometime.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did she stay?
Mr. OLSEN. Oh, I would say an hour or two.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have lunch on that Friday?
Mr. OLSEN. There at the place that I was watching.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have supper that day?
Mr. OLSEN. At her house.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you go to her house? And by “her” I take it
you mean Kay’s house?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Then what time did you go to Kay’s house?
Mr. OLSEN. When I got—when the motorcycle officer came and relieved me.
Mr. SPECTER. About what time was that?
Mr. OLSEN. Oh, 8; about 8.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an automobile?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. How did you get from the house which you were guarding to
Kay’s house?
Mr. OLSEN. Walked.
Mr. SPECTER. How far was it?
Mr. OLSEN. About 4 blocks.
Mr. SPECTER. Did the cast on your knee restrict your walking in any
material way?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you able to walk with the cast on your knee?
Mr. OLSEN. A little bit, not much.
Mr. SPECTER. But you were able to walk well enough to cover those 4
blocks to Kay’s house?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes. And it swelled after I had walked it, though.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after arriving at Kay’s house?
Mr. OLSEN. Well, going back to that, I had crutches, I believe, that I
used. Now, what was the question?
Mr. SPECTER. After you arrived at Kay’s house, what did you do then?
Mr. OLSEN. We talked about the assassination.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay at Kay’s house?
Mr. OLSEN. I would say several hours.
Mr. SPECTER. And about what time did you leave Kay’s house, to the best
of your ability to recollect?
Mr. OLSEN. What time I don’t know.
Mr. SPECTER. Was anybody else at Kay’s house with you besides Kay?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. In what manner did you travel away from Kay’s house, by
foot, by car?
Mr. OLSEN. By car.
Mr. SPECTER. Whose car was that?
Mr. OLSEN. Mine.
Mr. SPECTER. How was it that you didn’t have your car at the house
which you were guarding?
Mr. OLSEN. I didn’t want to drive it, I don’t remember why. I think I
left it for her to use.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Kay go with you when you drove away from her house?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go?
Mr. OLSEN. Downtown.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of your trip to town?
Mr. OLSEN. To see where the President was shot.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you go then to Dealey Plaza?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, we drove by there.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you go anyplace else?
Mr. OLSEN. We went to a garage.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was that garage located?
Mr. OLSEN. Jackson and Field.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of going to a garage at Jackson and
Field?
Mr. OLSEN. We knew the man who worked there.
Mr. SPECTER. What was his name?
Mr. OLSEN. Johnny is all I know him by.
Mr. SPECTER. What sort of work did he do at that garage?
Mr. OLSEN. He was an attendant.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did you want to go see him?
Mr. OLSEN. To talk.
Mr. SPECTER. For any special purpose?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recollect about what time you arrived at that
garage?
Mr. OLSEN. Oh, 12, approximately.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Johnny when you were there?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody else while you were at that garage?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Who else did you see?
Mr. OLSEN. Jack Ruby.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody else besides Johnny and Jack Ruby?
Mr. OLSEN. Not that I remember; no.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, before seeing Ruby at the garage on that Friday
night, when had you seen him most recently before that time?
Mr. OLSEN. It could have been a few days or a week.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall where it was that you saw him prior to this
Friday night?
Mr. OLSEN. Oh, it was probably outside of his club.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall the specific instance, or are you just
saying what you think probably occurred?
Mr. OLSEN. I am just saying what probably occurred, because I don’t
remember when I saw him before that.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any recollection what your conversation was
with Mr. Ruby when you saw him prior to this Friday night?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you talk to Mr. Ruby on this Friday night?
Mr. OLSEN. Two or three hours.
Mr. SPECTER. Who else was present at the time of the conversation?
Mr. OLSEN. Kay.
Mr. SPECTER. And anybody else?
Mr. OLSEN. Johnny.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there anybody besides Johnny and Kay and Jack Ruby?
Mr. OLSEN. Not that I remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Tell me as specifically as you can recall exactly what it
was that Ruby said and what it was that you and Kay and Johnny said in
reply to him?
Mr. OLSEN. We were all upset about the President’s assassination, and
we were just talking about how we hated it, that it was a tragedy.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Jack Ruby say something to that effect?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes; very strongly.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall what his exact words were, by any chance?
Mr. OLSEN. I believe he said something to the effect that “It’s too bad
that a peon,” or a person like Oswald, “could do something like that,”
referring to shooting the President and the officer, Officer Tippit.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything more about Oswald at that time?
Mr. OLSEN. He cursed him.
Mr. SPECTER. What specific language did he use?
Mr. OLSEN. S.o.b.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other specific curse that you recollect Ruby
used in describing Oswald?
Mr. OLSEN. He could have said something else, but I remember that. I’m
sure that he did say something else, but I don’t remember what it was.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything at that time about whether or not he
knew Oswald?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything at that time about whether or not he
knew Officer J. D. Tippit?
Mr. OLSEN. It seemed that he did know Officer Tippit.
Mr. SPECTER. Why do you say, “It seemed that he did know Officer
Tippit”?
Mr. OLSEN. I believe he said that Tippit had been to his club.
Mr. SPECTER. Recollect as specifically as you can exactly what he said
about that, if you can, Mr. Olsen.
Mr. OLSEN. Something about Oswald shooting the President and Officer
Tippit and leaving the wife and children, and he kept referring to
Jacqueline.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, how about what you were referring to concerning
Ruby’s knowing Officer Tippit? What exactly did Ruby say at that time,
to the best of your ability to recollect, about any relationship or
acquaintanceship between Jack Ruby and J. D. Tippit?
Mr. OLSEN. Well, I just don’t remember if there was anything
specifically said about that.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you say to Ruby during that conversation?
Mr. OLSEN. I said it was a tragedy that this happened.
Mr. SPECTER. What did Johnny say to Ruby at that time?
Mr. OLSEN. And he said, yes; it sure was.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Johnny say anything else?
Mr. OLSEN. Well, we all talked; I don’t remember what exactly was said.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember anything specifically that Kay said at
that time?
Mr. OLSEN. No. It was a shame that it had happened.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall whether or not Kay said something to the
effect that “In England they would have Oswald by his toes and drag him
through the street”?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr. SPECTER. Had Kay talked to Ruby earlier on that Friday?
Mr. OLSEN. I believe that she did.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that in person or by telephone?
Mr. OLSEN. I believe it was by phone.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was she when she talked to him by phone, if you know?
Mr. OLSEN. At her house.
Mr. SPECTER. And where was Ruby, if you know?
Mr. OLSEN. I think he was at his house.
Mr. SPECTER. At what time did that telephone conversation occur?
Mr. OLSEN. I believe it was in the afternoon sometime.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of that call, if you know?
Mr. OLSEN. To find out if she had heard about the President’s
assassination.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there anything else said by either Kay or Ruby at that
time when they had telephone conversation?
Mr. OLSEN. I wasn’t—I don’t believe I was there when she talked to him.
Mr. SPECTER. How do you know about the call then?
Mr. OLSEN. She said that she had talked to him.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not they discussed whether or not
the Carousel Club would be open that night?
Mr. OLSEN. I believe they did.
Mr. SPECTER. And do you know what Ruby said about that subject matter?
Mr. OLSEN. He said that it would not be open.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Kay telephoned Ruby or Ruby telephoned
Kay on the occasion?
Mr. OLSEN. No; I don’t.
Mr. SPECTER. How long were you at that garage at Jackson and Field
before you saw Jack Ruby on that Friday night or early Saturday morning?
Mr. OLSEN. Oh, 30 minutes to an hour, I guess.
Mr. SPECTER. Could that garage be located on Jackson and Akard,
A-k-a-r-d?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. How far is Jackson and Akard from Jackson and Field?
Mr. OLSEN. One block.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you discuss with Ruby the fact that he closed his club
that night?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you say to him, if you recall?
Mr. OLSEN. I said that it should be closed.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you congratulate him for having closed it?
Mr. OLSEN. I believe I did.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you shake his hand?
Mr. OLSEN. I don’t recall.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you pretty emotionally upset about the assassination
of President Kennedy at that time?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Was Kay pretty emotionally upset about the assassination
at that time?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. How about Johnny?
Mr. OLSEN. He was, too; yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And how about Ruby?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What indication was there that you observed that Ruby was
emotionally upset about the assassination?
Mr. OLSEN. He was very nervous.
Mr. SPECTER. In what way was that evident?
Mr. OLSEN. Oh, in his speech and his actions.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other indication that you were able to
observe that Ruby was upset about the assassination?
Mr. OLSEN. Oh, the way he talked, and that was it.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Ruby mention anything about the Weissman advertisement
that appeared in the Dallas papers earlier that day?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What did he say about that?
Mr. OLSEN. He said they shouldn’t be open.
Mr. SPECTER. What Weissman advertisement had appeared earlier that day?
Mr. OLSEN. Just the usual ad in the paper about them being open.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any advertisement in the paper that day
containing derogatory statements about President Kennedy?
Mr. OLSEN. There was something in the paper, I believe, about somebody
carrying banners in one part of town.
Mr. SPECTER. What kind of banners were those?
Mr. OLSEN. I believe they were about President Kennedy, and what they
said, I don’t remember what it was.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember Ruby’s comment about that, or whether he
made one?
Mr. OLSEN. I believe he did say something about that.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall what it was?
Mr. OLSEN. He said that it wasn’t right, and “I just wonder how they
feel about it now.”
Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about the radicals in Dallas at that
particular time?
Mr. OLSEN. Not that I remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about the effect of all that on the
Jews?
Mr. OLSEN. I believe he did.
Mr. SPECTER. What did he say about that?
Mr. OLSEN. No; he didn’t; I don’t believe he said anything about that;
no.
Mr. SPECTER. Now, at about what time was it——
Mr. OLSEN. Let me think about that for a minute, will you?
Mr. SPECTER. Go ahead; take your time.
Mr. OLSEN. I heard something about him saying after he shot Oswald that
he wondered if the other Jews would blame him for what he had done.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear that from Ruby personally?
Mr. OLSEN. No; it was hearsay.
Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that?
Mr. OLSEN. I either read it or heard it.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall where you read it?
Mr. OLSEN. I believe——
Mr. SPECTER. Or from whom you heard it?
Mr. OLSEN. It was either in the paper or from someone who had been to
visit him.
Mr. SPECTER. Who might it have been who was to visit him?
Mr. OLSEN. Wally Weston.
Mr. SPECTER. Who is Wally Weston?
Mr. OLSEN. He was the master of ceremonies there in his club.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you last talk to Wally Weston?
Mr. OLSEN. When I was in the hospital after the car accident.
Mr. SPECTER. When did that car accident occur?
Mr. OLSEN. December 7.
Mr. SPECTER. How long were you in the hospital?
Mr. OLSEN. Two weeks, two and a half weeks.
Mr. SPECTER. What injuries did you sustain in that automobile collision?
Mr. OLSEN. I rebroke my leg.
Mr. SPECTER. In the same place?
Mr. OLSEN. The same place and some more breaks. And I cracked my chest
bone.
Mr. SPECTER. Indicating your sternum?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. And I broke some ribs.
Mr. SPECTER. What hospital were you in?
Mr. OLSEN. Methodist.
Mr. SPECTER. What else did Wally Weston have to say on that occasion,
if anything, about Jack Ruby?
Mr. OLSEN. He couldn’t understand why he did it.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Weston say anything further about Jack Ruby?
Mr. OLSEN. Not that I remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you now told me everything you can remember about
that conversation among you and Ruby and Kay and Johnny that night in
the garage?
Mr. OLSEN. Between who?
Mr. SPECTER. Ruby, Kay, Johnny, and you at the garage the Friday night
or early Saturday morning of the assassination.
Mr. OLSEN. I can’t think of anything else. It was a conversation about
what had happened to the President and Officer Tippit, and everyone was
very upset about it.
Mr. SPECTER. What time, to the best of your ability or recollection,
did that conversation end?
Mr. OLSEN. Two or three in the morning.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after that?
Mr. OLSEN. I took Kay home.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see any——
Mr. OLSEN. Jack left.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody or talk to anybody else later that
night?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do after taking Kay home?
Mr. OLSEN. We talked a while.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do next?
Mr. OLSEN. I think I went home.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you awaken on Saturday?
Mr. OLSEN. Oh, probably 11 in the morning.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have breakfast on Saturday?
Mr. OLSEN. At her house.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you go to her house? And by “her” I take it
you mean Kay?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. Oh, 12 or 1 o’clock.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody else on Saturday besides Kay?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Who else did you see?
Mr. OLSEN. I saw Ruby Saturday night.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was it that you saw Ruby?
Mr. OLSEN. In front of his club.
Mr. SPECTER. The Carousel Club?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. At what time was that?
Mr. OLSEN. Oh, 10 or 11 at night.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you speak to him?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the circumstances under which you saw him?
Mr. OLSEN. We were driving by and he was standing outside and we waved.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he see you and wave at you?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do from the time you got to Kay’s house
until the time that you saw Ruby standing in front of his club on that
Saturday night?
Mr. OLSEN. Watched some television and listened to the radio a little
bit.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see or talk to anybody else either in person or by
telephone from the time you got to Kay’s house until the time you saw
Ruby that Saturday night?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir; I don’t guess we did.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after you saw Ruby in front of his club
that Saturday night?
Mr. OLSEN. What did we do then?
Mr. SPECTER. What did you and Kay do then?
Mr. OLSEN. We drove by where the President was shot, we drove by there
several times, and drove around town a little bit.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you finish driving around town?
Mr. OLSEN. Oh, I guess 1 or 2.
Mr. SPECTER. In the morning?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody else you knew while you were driving
around town?
Mr. OLSEN. We did, but I don’t remember who it was.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you stop and talk to them?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir. I don’t remember who it was.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go when you finished driving around town?
Mr. OLSEN. I took her home.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive at her home?
Mr. OLSEN. I would say 2 or 3 in the morning.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next?
Mr. OLSEN. Well, we talked about what had happened more.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did that conversation last?
Mr. OLSEN. Oh, I guess about an hour.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next?
Mr. OLSEN. Went to bed.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you sleep that night?
Mr. OLSEN. I could have slept on her couch. Either that or I went back
to my apartment.
Mr. SPECTER. At what time did you awaken Sunday morning?
Mr. OLSEN. Oh, 10 or 11.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you have breakfast?
Mr. OLSEN. At her house.
Mr. SPECTER. And by “her” you mean Kay?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do after breakfast? First, did you go to
Kay’s house right after you awakened?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Then how long did you stay at Kay’s house?
Mr. OLSEN. I think we were there when Ruby shot Oswald.
Mr. SPECTER. How did you learn that Ruby had shot Oswald?
Mr. OLSEN. It was either the radio or the television.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you watching TV at the time that it happened?
Mr. OLSEN. I believe so. If not, we turned it on right after we had
heard it.
Mr. SPECTER. Was anyone else present in Kay’s house except you and Kay?
Mr. OLSEN. Her children.
Mr. SPECTER. What are the names of her children?
Mr. OLSEN. Susan and Sheri.
Mr. SPECTER. How old is Susan?
Mr. OLSEN. Nine.
Mr. SPECTER. How old is Sheri?
Mr. OLSEN. Seven.
Mr. SPECTER. Was anyone else present besides you and Kay and Susan and
Sheri?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir; they could have been outside playing.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay at Kay’s house that day?
Mr. OLSEN. Oh, several hours, I guess.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody else before you left Kay’s house that
day, on that Sunday?
Mr. OLSEN. Not that I recall. I could have seen somebody who lives
there.
Mr. SPECTER. Such as who?
Mr. OLSEN. Oh, the landlord.
Mr. SPECTER. Who is he?
Mr. OLSEN. I don’t remember his name.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to anybody by telephone that day?
Mr. OLSEN. I don’t recall if I called the police department or not,
whether they wanted me to come down and work.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you on duty that day?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. How was it that you were off for 3 days in a row?
Mr. OLSEN. I had a holiday.
Mr. SPECTER. What do you mean by “a holiday”?
Mr. OLSEN. Well, like Christmas or Thanksgiving, or something like that.
Mr. SPECTER. You mean you had a compensatory day coming for having
worked a holiday?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear any announcement that day that Oswald was
about to be moved?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. How did you happen to hear that?
Mr. OLSEN. On television, I believe.
Mr. SPECTER. And specifically, what was that announcement?
Mr. OLSEN. That he was being moved from the city jail to the county
jail.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to anybody about that?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell Ruby about that?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to Ruby that Sunday?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked to Ruby at any time after that
conversation you had with him in the garage on late Friday night or
early Saturday morning?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you leave Kay’s house on Sunday, November
24, to the best of your ability to recollect?
Mr. OLSEN. I would say 9 or 10 o’clock.
Mr. SPECTER. In the evening?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go then?
Mr. OLSEN. We drove by city hall.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you stop?
Mr. OLSEN. Sir?
Mr. SPECTER. Did you stop at city hall?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go after dropping by city hall?
Mr. OLSEN. We drove by where the President was assassinated.
Mr. SPECTER. Was Kay with you at that time?
Mr. OLSEN. I believe she was.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go next?
Mr. OLSEN. I believe we went to her house.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay there?
Mr. OLSEN. Oh, I don’t remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you contact anybody after you learned Oswald was shot
by Ruby?
Mr. OLSEN. Sir?
Mr. SPECTER. Did you contact anybody after you learned that Oswald was
shot by Ruby?
Mr. OLSEN. I believe I called the police department and asked them if
they wanted me to work.
Mr. SPECTER. Aside from that call, did you contact anybody?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And when you called the police department what did they
tell you?
Mr. OLSEN. They didn’t need me to work.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall who you talked to on that occasion?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Has Kay worked for Ruby at any time after the
assassination?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. When did she work for Ruby last preceding the
assassination?
Mr. OLSEN. Thursday, I would say.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you end your employment with the Dallas Police
Department?
Mr. OLSEN. The latter part of December.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the reason for leaving the Dallas Police
Department?
Mr. OLSEN. I wanted to come to California.
Mr. SPECTER. Nobody at the Dallas Police Department asked you to leave?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Who asked you to leave the Police Department?
Mr. OLSEN. Chief Curry.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the reason for that?
Mr. OLSEN. I was out of sick time; in other words, you are allotted so
much sick time a year, and he didn’t want to extend me any more.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that the only reason why he asked you to terminate
your employment with the police department?
Mr. OLSEN. That was one of the reasons.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other reason?
(Long pause.)
Mr. OLSEN. I don’t remember exactly what was said.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any special reason why you went to California?
Mr. OLSEN. We heard the climate was nice out here.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know a Bertha Cheek? Does that name ring a bell
with you?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Who is she?
Mr. OLSEN. I have heard the name. Can you help me a little bit with it?
Mr. SPECTER. Well, do you recollect anything about her at this moment?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir; I have heard the name, though.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell Bertha Cheek that Ruby was looking for a
partner?
Mr. OLSEN. Well, who is Bertha Cheek?
Mr. SPECTER. You just don’t recollect?
Mr. OLSEN. Did I tell Bertha Cheek that Ruby was looking for a partner?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Mr. OLSEN. Not that I remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Ruby ever room at Bertha Cheek’s apartment building?
Mr. OLSEN. Well, where is that?
Mr. SPECTER. Well, do you know of any Bertha Cheek who has an apartment
building in Dallas?
Mr. OLSEN. Does she have the one on Gaston?
Mr. SPECTER. Did Ruby ever room at an apartment building on Gaston?
Mr. OLSEN. Not that I know of, no.
Mr. SPECTER. From the time President Kennedy was assassinated through
the rest of that Friday and Saturday and Sunday did you see or talk to
Little Lynn?
Mr. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Bruce Carlin, during that same time?
Mr. OLSEN. Who?
Mr. SPECTER. Bruce Carlin. I notice a quizzical look on your face. Do
you know who Bruce Carlin is?
Mr. OLSEN. No; can you help me?
Mr. SPECTER. No; I am not able to do that. Did you see or talk to Tammi
True?
Mr. OLSEN. Not that I remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Tammi True?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see or talk to Ralph Paul from November 22d
through to November 24th?
Mr. OLSEN. I don’t believe so.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Tom Howard?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see or talk to Tom Howard from the time of the
assassination until the following Sunday?
Mr. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see or talk to Breck Wall during that same period
of time?
Mr. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see or talk to George Senator from November 22d
through the 24th?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. You know who George Senator is?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Mickey Ryan?
(Witness shaking head.)
Mr. SPECTER. Let the record show that Mr.——
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Olsen is shaking his head “No,” and now he has said “No.”
Do you know Blackie Harrison?
Mr. OLSEN. I believe, if it’s the one I’m thinking of.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you thinking of one who is an officer on the Police
Department?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see or talk to Blackie Harrison from the time of
the assassination to the Sunday after that?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Lieutenant Butler?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see or talk to Lieutenant Butler from the
assassination until the 24th of November?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir; I don’t believe so.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see or talk to Detective L. D. Miller from the
assassination until November 24th?
Mr. OLSEN. Not that I remember; no, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Tom O’Grady?
Mr. OLSEN. I might know him by sight, but I don’t know him from the
name.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Ralph Paul ever tell you that Ruby said he was going
to shoot Oswald?
Mr. OLSEN. No, not that I remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever hear of Oswald before the assassination of
President Kennedy?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Oswald before the assassination of
President Kennedy?
Mr. OLSEN. Not that I remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know at all whether Ruby knew Oswald prior to the
assassination?
Mr. OLSEN. I don’t know.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Eugene Smith?
Mr. OLSEN. I don’t remember. I might know him if I would see him.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Ruby knew anyone by the name of Eugene
Smith?
Mr. OLSEN. No, I don’t.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Ruby was a member of any subversive
organization; that is, an organization which advocates the forceful
overthrow of the U.S. Government?
Mr. OLSEN. To my knowledge, he was never a member of anything like that.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether any of his friends or family were
members of such an organization?
Mr. OLSEN. I don’t know.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Ruby associated with any of the
criminal element.
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he ever associate with any of the criminal element?
Mr. OLSEN. I think he did in Chicago.
Mr. SPECTER. What, is the basis for your saying that?
Mr. OLSEN. I had heard that he had been with a gang in Chicago.
Mr. SPECTER. Who told you that?
Mr. OLSEN. Oh, it could have been Ruby himself.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall for sure whether or not it was Ruby who told
you that?
Mr. OLSEN. I recall that he did—he had said something about being with
a—or, how rough Chicago used to be.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, did he say anything beyond how rough it was, to the
effect that he was with a criminal gang or anything of that sort?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Ruby’s trip to Cuba?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. What do you know about that?
Mr. OLSEN. He said he was going to Cuba to get acts.
Mr. SPECTER. To get what?
Mr. OLSEN. Acts.
Mr. SPECTER. A-c-t-s?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. For his nightclub?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. When did he go to Cuba, if you remember?
Mr. OLSEN. I remember when he went, but I don’t remember the date.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other purpose that you know about in Ruby’s
going to Cuba?
Mr. OLSEN. No. He seemed to be quiet about it.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Ruby’s attitude toward the John
Birch Society?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about his attitude toward the
Minutemen?
Mr. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever hear Ruby say anything about the sign on
impeaching Chief Justice Earl Warren?
Mr. OLSEN. Would you repeat that?
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever hear Ruby say anything about a sign or
advertisement which said “Impeach Chief Justice Earl Warren of the U.S.
Supreme Court”?
Mr. OLSEN. He could have said something about it, but I don’t remember.
I think that he did.
Mr. SPECTER. Off the record for just a minute.
(There was a discussion off the record.)
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think would be
helpful to the President’s Commission in any way, Mr. Olsen?
Mr. OLSEN. I wish I did. If I did, I would tell you.
Mr. SPECTER. But you don’t?
Mr. OLSEN. Not that I can think of.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Now, under the procedure of the Commission, Mr.
Olsen, we can make this deposition transcript available to you to read
and to sign, if you want to, or you can forego your right to do that on
what is called a waiver.
Would you like to read and sign the deposition; that is, this record?
Mr. OLSEN. Should I?
Mr. SPECTER. Well, it’s up to you. If you want to, you can, it’s up
to you. There is some doubt in your mind, so I think we will make it
available to you to read and to sign.
Mr. OLSEN. OK.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you very much for coming, Mr. Olsen, and that
concludes the deposition.
(There was a discussion off the record.)
Mr. SPECTER. Let’s go back on the record just a minute.
Mr. Olsen, did we have a brief conversation before I administered the
oath to you and the court reporter started to take down my questions
and your answers?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And did I cover in a general way the questions which I
have since asked you on the record?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you give me the same information which you have
given on the record?
Mr. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Thank you.
TESTIMONY OF KAY HELEN OLSEN
The testimony of Kay Helen Olsen was taken at 4:30 p.m., on August
6, 1964, at U.S. Post Office Building, 312 North Spring Street, Los
Angeles, Calif., by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the
President’s Commission.
Mr. SPECTER. May the record show that Mrs. Harry Olsen is present in
response to a letter request for her to appear and have her deposition
taken.
Mrs. Olsen, did you receive such a letter from the President’s
Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And when did you get that letter?
Mrs. OLSEN. Monday morning.
Mr. SPECTER. Today is Thursday, so that would have been 3 days ago?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes, I think it was Monday morning.
Mr. SPECTER. All right. Is it satisfactory with you to proceed to have
your deposition taken at the present time?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did the letter contain the Executive order creating the
Commission and the rules and regulations for the taking of depositions?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you note that you could have an attorney present
if you wanted one at this time?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you willing to proceed without an attorney being
present on your behalf?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. The Commission has asked you to appear to give a
deposition with respect to your knowledge of Jack Ruby and the events
of November 22 through November 24.
With that preliminary statement of purpose, would you rise and raise
your right hand, please.
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you shall give in
this deposition proceeding before the President’s Commission shall be
the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs. OLSEN. I do.
Mr. SPECTER. Will you state your full name for the record, please?
Mrs. OLSEN. Kay Helen Olsen.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the date of your birth, Mrs. Olsen?
Mrs. OLSEN. The 13th of April 1936.
Mr. SPECTER. Where were you born?
Mrs. OLSEN. London, England.
Mr. SPECTER. How long have you lived in the United States?
Mrs. OLSEN. Eight years.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you married to Mr. Harry Olsen?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. How long have you been married to Mr. Olsen?
Mrs. OLSEN. Seven months.
Mr. SPECTER. And were you married prior to your marriage to Mr. Olsen?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What is the name of the gentlemen to whom you were
previously married?
Mrs. OLSEN. Kennerd Coleman.
Mr. SPECTER. And when were you divorced from Mr. Coleman?
Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t remember the month. It was 1959.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you married on any occasion prior to your marriage to
Mr. Coleman?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your educational background?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I went to an all girls school, I won a scholarship to
an all girls school, and, well——
Mr. SPECTER. How old were you when you finished your formal education?
Mrs. OLSEN. I guess I was about 15½. We start earlier over there, you
know. We go to school earlier.
Mr. SPECTER. Would you outline briefly your places of residence from
the time you came to the United States?
Mrs. OLSEN. Victoria, Tex.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you live in Victoria, Tex.?
Mrs. OLSEN. June 1956.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you move from Victoria, Tex.?
Mrs. OLSEN. Well, that’s when we first separated. I came out here to
California, Riverside, Calif., and he went to Illinois.
Mr. SPECTER. Mr. Coleman went to Illinois and you came to Riverside,
Calif., in 1956?
Mrs. OLSEN. No; 1958.
Mr. SPECTER. 1958?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And where have you lived since 1958?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I had to go back to Illinois. He was sick and I had to
go back, and then we moved to Salina, Kans.
Mr. SPECTER. You reunited?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And when did you live in Salina, Kans.?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, that was the latter part of 1958.
Mr. SPECTER. And where did you move from Salina, Kans.?
Mrs. OLSEN. Wichita.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you live in Wichita?
Mrs. OLSEN. About 6 months.
Mr. SPECTER. And where did you next live after your residency in
Wichita, Kans.?
Mrs. OLSEN. Dallas.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you move to Dallas?
Mrs. OLSEN. June 1961.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you reside in Dallas?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, let me see. We came out here in January of 1964. Two
and a half years.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you resided here in Los Angeles since January of this
year?
Mrs. OLSEN. February 1.
Mr. SPECTER. Of 1964?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you know Jack Ruby?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you first meet Mr. Ruby?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, it was around July 1961.
Mr. SPECTER. What were the circumstances of your meeting him?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I just went up to his club to see some girlfriends.
Mr. SPECTER. What club is that?
Mrs. OLSEN. Carousel Club.
Mr. SPECTER. And how did you happen to meet him?
Mrs. OLSEN. Well, he asked me to go to work for him.
Mr. SPECTER. And were you subsequently employed by Mr. Ruby?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, it took me about a month to think it over, because
everybody thought he wouldn’t last, you know, they thought his business
wouldn’t last, competitionwise, you know, and I went to work for him, I
guess it was the latter part of July.
Mr. SPECTER. Of what year?
Mrs. OLSEN. 1961.
Mr. SPECTER. And how long did you work for him altogether?
Mrs. OLSEN. Two years and four months; on and off.
Mr. SPECTER. How did you get along with Mr. Ruby?
Mrs. OLSEN. Very good.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever have any disagreements with him?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; about, you know, trying to get a day off.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the cause, did you say, of the disagreement?
Mrs. OLSEN. Trying to get a day off. That was about it.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever have any other difficulties with Mr. Ruby?
Mrs. OLSEN. No; not really.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there ever romantic interest between you and Mr. Ruby?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. How did you meet Mr. Olsen, your husband?
Mrs. OLSEN. When I was working up there.
Mr. SPECTER. At the Carousel Club?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. How did Mr. Ruby and Mr. Olsen get along?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, he liked Harry.
Mr. SPECTER. Did they ever argue or fight?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, over me once in a while, trying to get some time off.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there ever any other disagreement between Mr. Ruby and
Mr. Olsen?
Mrs. OLSEN. Well, he didn’t think that Harry should come up there so
much, me working there.
Mr. SPECTER. How frequently did Harry come to the club?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, maybe on Saturday night for an hour or something, you
know about once a week.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Ruby ever do any favors for Mr. Olsen?
Mrs. OLSEN. Not that I know of.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you live in September of 1963?
Mrs. OLSEN. On Ewing.
Mr. SPECTER. What was your specific address?
Mrs. OLSEN. I think it was 325 North Ewing.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did Mr. Olsen live at that time?
Mrs. OLSEN. In September?
Mr. SPECTER. September of 1963.
Mrs. OLSEN. 1963? I think he was at Theatre Lane.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did Mr. Ruby live in September of 1963?
Mrs. OLSEN. I think he lived on Ewing, too. I don’t know the address;
it was out further.
Mr. SPECTER. What was your relationship with Mr. Olsen in the fall or
September of 1963?
Mrs. OLSEN. Well, steady.
Mr. SPECTER. You were going together steadily?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have plans to marry at that time?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. But we couldn’t because of me working, and, you know,
the police department, the wives couldn’t work in a place like that,
you know.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other reason why you couldn’t marry Mr.
Olsen at that time?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Was his divorce final at that time?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess. I don’t know when he got it.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he separated from his wife in the fall of 1963?
Mrs. OLSEN. I think he was divorced. This is just last September?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; he was divorced then. Oh, yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Ruby ever visit Mr. Olsen at his apartment?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Ruby ever visit you at your apartment?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, he has been over for breakfast with a group, a group of
people.
Mr. SPECTER. On how many occasions was he at your apartment; that is,
on how many occasions was Mr. Ruby at your apartment?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I would say twice.
Mr. SPECTER. Were others always present on those occasions?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. It’s hard to remember all this, you know.
Mr. SPECTER. How far was your apartment from Mr. Ruby’s in the fall of
1963?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I would say a mile.
Mr. SPECTER. It wasn’t a block away?
Mrs. OLSEN. No. I’m not very good at distances, but it was way at the
end. He lived way out on Ewing.
Mr. SPECTER. How many blocks was it?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I don’t know. He lived in two places, he lived on
Marsalis once.
Mr. SPECTER. When did he live on Marsalis? How do you spell that?
Mrs. OLSEN. M-a-r-s-a-l-i-s.
Mr. SPECTER. When did he live at the Marsalis residence?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, well, I know he was there on July the 4th the year
before, because we always spent July 4th over there, all the employees.
Mr. SPECTER. Where was he living in the fall of 1963, say September,
October, November?
Mrs. OLSEN. Ewing.
Mr. SPECTER. And how far was his Ewing Street residence from your
residence at 325 Ewing?
Mrs. OLSEN. Well, do you know the block number? Could you give me a
block number?
Mr. SPECTER. No; I am not able to do that. Do you recollect his block
number?
Mrs. OLSEN. No; I don’t know it. I just know the big apartment building.
Mr. SPECTER. And you don’t know how many blocks it was?
Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t; no.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you work at Mr. Ruby’s Carousel Club on a daily basis;
that is, did you work every day?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; 7 days a week.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall Friday, November 22, 1963, the day President
Kennedy was assassinated?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. When had you seen Mr. Ruby before that Friday?
Mrs. OLSEN. Thursday night at work.
Mr. SPECTER. And do you recall whether you had any conversation with
Mr. Ruby on Thursday, November 21?
Mrs. OLSEN. No; I can’t remember. I didn’t used to talk to him too
much, I stayed out of his way.
Mr. SPECTER. Tell me as precisely as you can recollect what you did on
Friday, November 22.
Mrs. OLSEN. Harry was guarding an estate on 8th Street just a ways from
where I lived, and I fixed a lunch for him and stopped off at the 7-11
store to get him some milk, and that’s when I heard that there had been
some trouble downtown; a colored lady told me that.
Mr. SPECTER. What time was that that you stopped at the 7-11 store?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess about 12:30.
Mr. SPECTER. In the afternoon?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. I can’t remember the morning. I had the children and I
can’t remember. We probably had been in the pool or something.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you awaken that Friday morning, if you
recall?
Mrs. OLSEN. It was probably late, because I worked that night.
Mr. SPECTER. And you cared for your children in the morning?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. How many children have you?
Mrs. OLSEN. Two girls.
Mr. SPECTER. And their names and ages?
Mrs. OLSEN. Susan is 9½ and Sheri is 7.
Mr. SPECTER. Both of these children were born during your first
marriage?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And after picking up the milk at the 7-11 store, what did
you do next?
Mrs. OLSEN. I went up to give Harry his lunch, and he had heard it;
some woman had called. He was sitting there and some woman had called
and she wanted to speak to the lady that was supposed to be there.
Harry answered the phone and she told him, I think, about the President
getting shot, because he already knew when I got there, so we sat in
the car and listened to the car radio, and that’s how we knew about it.
Mr. SPECTER. How long were you there at the house Harry was guarding?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess about an hour.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next?
Mrs. OLSEN. I called from there down to the club and this is when Harry
said, “You are going to quit; this is it,” you know.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did Harry say that to you?
Mrs. OLSEN. Well, I was on the verge of it anyway, we were going to
come out here last August and we kept putting it off and putting it
off, and—wait a minute, maybe I’m wrong. I called in and I said, “Are
we open tonight?”
Mr. SPECTER. Who did you talk to?
Mrs. OLSEN. The bartender.
Mr. SPECTER. What is his name?
Mrs. OLSEN. Andrew.
Mr. SPECTER. Andrew what?
Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know.
Mr. SPECTER. At the Carousel Club?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did the bartender say?
Mrs. OLSEN. I didn’t get to talk to Jack Ruby. Apparently he was crying
and everything.
Mr. SPECTER. How do you know that?
Mrs. OLSEN. Andy told me. And I said, “What is Jack doing?” And he
said, “Oh, he is all upset and he is crying.” And he said, “We are
closed tonight.” And after all this happened, oh, I had no desire to
get back in that business or anything, I was just sick over it anyway,
so that’s when I said, “Well, I’m not going back.” I didn’t tell Jack
this or anything, you know, because, you see, we are union and we have
to give notice.
Mr. SPECTER. You told Mr. Olsen that day that you did not intend to go
back to work for Mr. Ruby?
Mrs. OLSEN. Well, business, the whole business, I was through.
Mr. SPECTER. And you made a telephone call from the house that Mr.
Olsen was guarding?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do after that?
Mrs. OLSEN. I went home.
Mr. SPECTER. At about what time did you make that telephone call?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess it was around 1:15. The President was killed at
1 o’clock, wasn’t he?
Mr. SPECTER. 12:30.
Mrs. OLSEN. Well, I must have got there a little before that, then,
because I didn’t hear it until I sat in the car with Harry.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, didn’t some lady tell you about it at the 7-11 store?
Mrs. OLSEN. Well, she said the President had been shot; that’s what she
said.
Mr. SPECTER. Then what is your best recollection about when you left
that house?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess about 1:30. So I must have called about 1:15.
Mr. SPECTER. Then where did you go next?
Mrs. OLSEN. I was going to take the girls to the show.
Mr. SPECTER. What show?
Mrs. OLSEN. I didn’t know.
Mr. SPECTER. Some movie?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; a movie. And, well, I didn’t; I wasn’t in the mood to
sit in a movie, you know, and I really can’t remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody that afternoon?
Mrs. OLSEN. I went and sat with my landlady.
Mr. SPECTER. What is her name?
Mrs. OLSEN. She was the manager of the apartment; Mrs. Hall. We sat
there.
Mr. SPECTER. What is Mrs. Hall’s first name?
Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know.
Mr. SPECTER. Where does she live?
Mrs. OLSEN. Ewing; 325 North Ewing.
Mr. SPECTER. When you left the house that Mr. Olsen was guarding, did
you go right back to your own residence?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody that afternoon besides Mrs. Hall?
Mrs. OLSEN. No. Just, I guess, neighbors.
Mr. SPECTER. Which neighbors?
Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know. I can’t remember the names.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you telephone anybody?
Mrs. OLSEN. No; I don’t think so.
Mr. SPECTER. And what did you do later in the afternoon, if anything?
Mrs. OLSEN. I fixed supper for Harry and the girls. I think he got off
about 4 that day.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, he was guarding the house that day. Did he finish
guarding the house at 4?
Mrs. OLSEN. I think the man relieved him—it was 6. The other policeman
relieved him at 6.
Mr. SPECTER. What policeman was that?
Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know.
Mr. SPECTER. Then Mr. Olsen came over to your residence?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes, as far as I can remember.
Mr. SPECTER. And how long did he stay there?
Mrs. OLSEN. Well, we watched TV and, oh, we sat in front of that TV set
for a long time, and we were all nervous and upset, you know.
Mr. SPECTER. Was anybody else there besides you and Mr. Olsen and your
two children?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you call anybody that evening by telephone?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did anybody call you that evening?
Mrs. OLSEN. No. This is as far as I can recollect. I mean I can’t be
positive. I just can’t remember that day too well.
Mr. SPECTER. And how long did Mr. Olsen stay there that evening?
Mrs. OLSEN. We went out. We, you know, got nervous sitting there.
Mr. SPECTER. At what time did you go out?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, it was late; it was about 11.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go?
Mrs. OLSEN. We went downtown to a private club. We wanted a drink; we
were kind of shook up.
Mr. SPECTER. What club did you go to?
Mrs. OLSEN. It was the Sip and Nip on Commerce Street.
Mr. SPECTER. Sip and Nip?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody there that you knew?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, we knew the bartender and the waitress. Because we
didn’t get out, you know, too often with me working all the time.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the bartender’s name?
Mrs. OLSEN. I think his name was Lee. I’m pretty sure it was Lee.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the waitress’ name?
Mrs. OLSEN. I can’t remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody else you knew?
Mrs. OLSEN. No; not there.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay there at the club?
Mrs. OLSEN. Well, they close at 12.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody else you knew someplace else?
Mrs. OLSEN. Well, we went—do you want to know later what happened?
Mr. SPECTER. Fine.
Mrs. OLSEN. We went to the parking lot; we used to go over there and
talk to Johnny.
Mr. SPECTER. Johnny who?
Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know.
Mr. SPECTER. Where is the parking lot located?
Mrs. OLSEN. Right behind the Carousel Club; across the street on—what
street would that be?
Mr. SPECTER. Akard?
Mrs. OLSEN. Akard?
Mr. SPECTER. Jackson and Akard?
Mrs. OLSEN. Jackson.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that at the intersection of Jackson and Akard?
Mrs. OLSEN. No. Jackson and the next street down. What was that? Field;
Jackson and Field. And we sat in there and we talked.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you talk to Johnny?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, quite a while.
Mr. SPECTER. Was anybody else there at that time?
Mrs. OLSEN. Not that I remember; no. And we were sitting there; it was
late, and that’s when Jack Ruby drove by.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did he drive by?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I can’t be positive on these times.
Mr. SPECTER. About what time?
Mrs. OLSEN. I guess around 1.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he stop?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. We waved, and he stopped. He stopped at a red light
and pulled in and he came in and sat in the car and talked to us for
quite a while.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did that conversation last?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess an hour or so at least.
Mr. SPECTER. As nearly as you can recollect, tell me exactly what he
said and what you said to him?
Mrs. OLSEN. Well, everyone was shocked, you know, and we talked about
Mrs. Kennedy and the children and how terrible it was, and he told us
he had been down to the police station to take the boys some sandwiches
down there, and he was real upset, kind of wild-eyed, had his real
stary look, and he was upset that—well, he was mad that these other
clubowners hadn’t closed down.
Mr. SPECTER. Which clubowners?
Mrs. OLSEN. The Theatre Lounge and the Colony Club. I hate to remember
all this stuff, I really do. You know, I have such a different life now
and I hate to rehash it all.
Mr. SPECTER. What else did Mr. Ruby say at that time?
Mrs. OLSEN. I think he told us he had seen Oswald transferred, if I
remember right, and we asked him what he looked like and he said he
looked like a little rat, real sneaky looking.
Mr. SPECTER. He saw him transferred from where to where?
Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know. He saw him down there. I think as they were
moving him from one room to another.
Mr. SPECTER. He saw down where?
Mrs. OLSEN. At the police station.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything more about Oswald?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess he cussed him out a bit. He was just real upset.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about what he intended to do?
Mrs. OLSEN. About his club?
Mr. SPECTER. About anything.
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he say he intended to shoot Oswald?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not Ruby knew Oswald?
Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t think he did.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see Oswald in the club?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you ever seen Oswald at all?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. What else did Ruby say at that time?
Mrs. OLSEN. That’s about all I can remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any conversation about Officer J. D. Tippit?
Mrs. OLSEN. No. Was Tippit shot that day? Yes; he was, wasn’t he?
Mr. SPECTER. Tippit was shot on Friday afternoon; that day.
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes. I can’t remember, because I didn’t know Officer Tippit.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether or not Mr. Ruby knew Officer J. D.
Tippit?
Mrs. OLSEN. Well, I read in the papers that he did.
Mr. SPECTER. Aside from what you read in the papers, do you have any
personal knowledge——
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. As to whether Mr. Ruby knew Officer Tippit?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Olsen know Officer Tippit?
Mrs. OLSEN. He said he did.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he know him well?
Mrs. OLSEN. He said he had never been over to his house or anything, he
just seen him in the locker room, you know.
Mr. SPECTER. During the course of that conversation what did you say,
that is, when Mr. Ruby came by and you were parked at the parking lot
talking to Johnny?
Mrs. OLSEN. Just how terrible everything was.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall anything else that you said specifically?
Mrs. OLSEN. No; I can’t remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you say, “In England they would have hung Oswald by
his toes and dragged him through the street?”
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any reference at all to what would happen to
Oswald if he were in England?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Is there anything else you can recollect about that
conversation?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Had you talked to Ruby earlier on that Friday?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. How long had you been at that parking lot before Ruby
arrived?
Mrs. OLSEN. I guess about an hour, as close as I can remember.
Mr. SPECTER. During the course of that conversation, did Ruby say
anything about the Weissman ad?
Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know what you mean.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you know of any advertisement in the newspaper
containing derogatory remarks or unfavorable comments about President
Kennedy?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Ruby say anything during that conversation about
the radicals in Dallas?
Mrs. OLSEN. The what?
Mr. SPECTER. The radicals in Dallas.
Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know what that means.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about the John Birch Society?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about the Communists in Dallas?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did he say anything about the radical right?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Ruby say anything about the effect on Jews?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you say anything to Mr. Ruby about his closing his
club?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, just in conversation I asked him how long he thought he
could close. See, I didn’t give him notice or anything, I had to get
hold of the union man first, because the union, you know, you have to
give a 2-week notice, otherwise you have to pay them 2 weeks’ salary.
But I got out of that, I talked to the union man and he said—well, I
think they call it an act of God when something like this happens, and
you just don’t want any part of working like that any more. I think
that made all of us think a little bit.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you praise Ruby for closing up the club after the
assassination?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes, I thought it was the right thing to do.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you tell him so?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Olsen say anything about that?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I can’t remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Olsen shake his hand for closing up the club?
Mrs. OLSEN. Well, they used to shake hands all the time. I don’t know.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you upset at that time about the assassination?
Mrs. OLSEN. Very.
Mr SPECTER. Was Mr. Olsen upset?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; very much.
Mr. SPECTER. And how about Mr. Ruby, how was he?
Mrs. OLSEN. Real upset.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you observe about him that led you to the
conclusion that he was upset?
Mrs. OLSEN. Well, he looked awful tired and he would sit back and stare
off into space, and he never cried or anything, but, you know, he would
just keep saying over and over how terrible it was, what a wonderful
man the President was and how sorry he felt for Mrs. Kennedy and the
children.
Mr. SPECTER. After Mr. Ruby left what did you and Mr. Olsen do next?
Mrs. OLSEN. We came home to my house.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive at your house?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, let me see. It was kind of late, I guess around 3.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next?
Mrs. OLSEN. I guess I went to bed.
Mr. SPECTER. What did Mr. Olsen do?
Mrs. OLSEN. He left. He was living on Theatre—yes, he left.
Mr. SPECTER. He was living where?
Mrs. OLSEN. Theatre Lane. He went to Theatre Lane.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you awaken the next morning, which would
have been Saturday?
Mrs. OLSEN. Now, can I ask you, is this the day Oswald was shot?
Mr. SPECTER. Oswald was shot on Sunday.
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, Saturday? Oh, I would say around 11.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you——
Mrs. OLSEN. I had to go pick up my daughters, see, from the babysitter.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see anybody that you knew on that Saturday?
Mrs. OLSEN. I can’t remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you telephone anybody?
Mrs. OLSEN. I can’t remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Did anyone telephone you?
Mrs. OLSEN. Well, I have girl friends, you know, and we probably called
each other.
Mr. SPECTER. Can you recall any specific girl friend who either called
you or whom you called?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Mr. Olsen later that day?
Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know if he was working or not. I can’t remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall when you did see him next?
Mrs. OLSEN. No. Oh, we went out that evening.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did you go?
Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know. I can’t remember. I’m not being very helpful,
am I? But it was what, 9 months ago.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall seeing anybody else you knew on that evening
besides Mr. Olsen?
Mrs. OLSEN. We saw Jack Ruby standing outside of his club. We parked.
Mr. SPECTER. What time was that?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess around 9. And he was standing outside and he
covered up all these pictures or something.
Mr. SPECTER. He had covered up the pictures?
Mrs. OLSEN. I think he had covered up pictures.
Mr. SPECTER. What pictures did he cover up?
Mrs. OLSEN. Of the girls, you know, in the show. I think he covered
them up or something, or took them out or something.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did he do that, do you know?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to Mr. Ruby on that occasion?
Mrs. OLSEN. No. We just pulled in the parking lot and said “Hi, how are
you,” and he said “OK.” It was just hello and goodbye, you know.
Mr. SPECTER. Have you ever talked to Mr. Ruby since that time?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do next?
Mrs. OLSEN. That evening?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Mrs. OLSEN. We went out, but I can’t remember where.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you remember whether you saw anybody that night, or
whether you talked to anybody you knew?
Mrs. OLSEN. No; I don’t know. I don’t even know where we went.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you arrive home that night?
Mrs. OLSEN. Probably late.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any telephone calls after you arrived home?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. What did Mr. Olsen do after he brought you home?
Mrs. OLSEN. Went home, I guess.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you recall what time you awakened on the next day,
which would have been Sunday, the day Oswald was shot?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; my daughter woke me. Can you tell me what time did
this happen, the shooting, and I can tell you what time I woke up,
because my daughter woke me up and told me about it, because she knew
Jack, see.
Mr. SPECTER. Well, what is your best recollection as to what time your
daughter awakened you?
Mrs. OLSEN. I expect 11:30, I guess. Because I get up in the morning
and fix their breakfast and everything and then I go back to bed.
Mr. SPECTER. What did she say to you?
Mrs. OLSEN. She said, “Jack shot Oswald,” and I said, “Oh, no; don’t
be silly,” you know, but I got out of bed and turned on the TV and it
was just—it was just coming on, I think then, and I recognized him by
the back of his head, you know, from his back, and then, of course, my
neighbors started knocking because they knew where I worked and they
said, “Have you heard,” you know, and, oh, I couldn’t believe it.
Mr. SPECTER. What neighbor did that?
Mrs. OLSEN. Well, I think my landlady.
Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Hall?
Mrs. OLSEN. Mrs. Hall; yes, probably.
Mr. SPECTER. Anybody else?
Mrs. OLSEN. I think Nancy, one of the girls across the way, came in and
had some coffee.
Mr. SPECTER. What is Nancy’s last name?
Mrs. OLSEN. Ernest.
Mr. SPECTER. Where does she live?
Mrs. OLSEN. She lives in one of the apartments on Ewing.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to anybody else at that time?
Mrs. OLSEN. No. Because I think that was the night we were going up
to—I had never met Harry’s parents. This was another reason I quit, you
know, and I wouldn’t have to lie to them or anything, you know. And I
was hunting up a babysitter, that’s right.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to anybody else on that Sunday by telephone
or in person?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do that Sunday?
Mrs. OLSEN. We went to Wichita Falls—Henrietta, Henrietta.
Mr. SPECTER. How far is Henrietta?
Mrs. OLSEN. About 160 miles, I think. To Harry’s parents.
Mr. SPECTER. On Sunday, November 24?
Mrs. OLSEN. I think that was the night. I’m sure that was the Sunday.
Mr. SPECTER. What time did you leave Dallas?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, about 2 in the afternoon, I guess.
Mr. SPECTER. And what time did you arrive at Henrietta, Tex.?
Mrs. OLSEN. I got that wrong. It was dark when we got there. I guess we
left later, about 4. I think we got there about 6:30. It was dark or
something, I don’t remember.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay at Henrietta?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, about 3 hours.
Mr. SPECTER. And what time did you leave?
Mrs. OLSEN. About 10, I guess.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you drive back to Dallas that night?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you see at Henrietta?
Mrs. OLSEN. Harry’s parents. And then we visited another friend of the
family.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the name of that friend?
Mrs. OLSEN. His name was Harry. I don’t know his last name.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you visit or meet anyone else at Henrietta?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. While you were at Henrietta did you talk to anyone over
the telephone?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you do when you arrived back in Dallas late that
Sunday night?
Mrs. OLSEN. Went to bed.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you listening to the radio or television before
Oswald was shot that Sunday?
Mrs. OLSEN. No; I was sleeping.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you hear any announcements on that day that Oswald was
about to be moved?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Ruby on that Sunday?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you talk to Ruby on that Sunday?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. After you heard that Oswald was shot did you contact
anybody?
Mrs. OLSEN. I think I called Jean, my girl friend in Grand Prairie.
Mr. SPECTER. What is Jean’s last name?
Mrs. OLSEN. Jean Simms.
Mr. SPECTER. In Grand Prairie, Tex.?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What was the purpose of contacting her?
Mrs. OLSEN. Well, about Jack, you know, what a shock it was.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did you call her?
Mrs. OLSEN. She was my closest friend.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any specific purpose in calling her?
Mrs. OLSEN. No; it was—you know, when somebody you work for does
something like this you just want to talk to someone, you know.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you call anybody else?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did anybody else call you?
Mrs. OLSEN. Not that I can remember. There might have been a girl
friend or something.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you ever go back to the Carousel Club after that
Sunday?
Mrs. OLSEN. We went up New Year’s Eve for a few minutes just to see
some of the girls that worked up there, and it was a real terrible
atmosphere. We didn’t stay long.
Mr. SPECTER. Of course, Mr. Ruby wasn’t there at that time?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever go back to work at the Carousel Club after
Oswald was shot?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you go back to the Carousel Club to get your clothes?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you do that?
Mrs. OLSEN. When?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Mrs. OLSEN. When I got the clearance from the union, he said it was all
right.
Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you deal with to get the clearance from the union?
Mrs. OLSEN. Tom Palmer.
Mr. SPECTER. How do you spell his last name?
Mrs. OLSEN. P-a-l-m-e-r.
Mr. SPECTER. And when did you get the clearance from Mr. Palmer?
Mrs. OLSEN. Well, I didn’t work for a couple of weeks there, so it was
over that period, you know, a couple of weeks.
Mr. SPECTER. When is your best recollection, then, as to when you went
back to the club to get your clothes?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, I guess a week later.
Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you see?
Mrs. OLSEN. The bartender let me in.
Mr. SPECTER. What was his name?
Mrs. OLSEN. Andrew.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you say to him, if anything?
Mrs. OLSEN. Well, he didn’t have too much to say to me. I think they
thought I was a traitor for not sticking with them, you know.
Mr. SPECTER. Were you crying at the time?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; I think I was.
Mr. SPECTER. Why were you crying?
Mrs. OLSEN. I felt sorry for Jack at that time, if I remember rightly.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you say——
Mrs. OLSEN. Just a minute, I’m just trying to think. I think Tom
Howard, Jack Ruby’s attorney, was up there at that time, and he got me
in tears, I think.
Mr. SPECTER. How did he get you in tears, so to speak?
Mrs. OLSEN. Well, I was upset anyway, and nervous, and, well, he just
talked about Jack said hello to all of us and he didn’t feel bad about
me quitting, anything I wanted to do was all right, not to worry about
it, you know, worry about quitting. You see, most of the girls stayed.
Mr. SPECTER. Was anybody else there at the time you went back to get
your clothes?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. But you recollect seeing attorney Tom Howard and bartender
Andy?
Mrs. OLSEN. I think that was the same day. I’m not sure.
Mr. SPECTER. But were you back there on any other day?
Mrs. OLSEN. No. The way I am confused, one evening we were up there.
Mr. SPECTER. Was that New Year’s Eve?
Mrs. OLSEN. Before I got my clothes. No; it was before that.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say you were up there, whom do you mean?
Mrs. OLSEN. Alice and I, a girl friend.
Mr. SPECTER. What is Alice’s last name?
Mrs. OLSEN. I think she quit, too, at that time.
Mr. SPECTER. What is Alice’s last name?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh——
Mr. SPECTER. Not Alice Nichol?
Mrs. OLSEN. Alexander.
Mr. SPECTER. Was it Alice Nichol?
Mrs. OLSEN. No; Alice Alexander, I think it was. She was a waitress.
Mr. SPECTER. Where does she live?
Mrs. OLSEN. Grand Prairie.
Mr. SPECTER. And when was it that you and she were there together?
Mrs. OLSEN. I can’t remember. It was some evening.
Mr. SPECTER. Whom did you see when you were there?
Mrs. OLSEN. It seems like that was the night the attorney was up
there. I went up to get my paycheck; that’s right; I went up to get my
paycheck. That’s the night I was up there.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Ruby pay you by check or by cash?
Mrs. OLSEN. Check, and then we would sign the check and he would give
us the cash, you know, like that.
Mr. SPECTER. And who was there on that occasion?
Mrs. OLSEN. What occasion?
Mr. SPECTER. When you went to get your paycheck.
Mrs. OLSEN. That was when Alice came with me. I’m pretty sure that this
was the night that Tom Howard was up there, and that was the night that
I was crying, I think.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there anybody there besides you and Alice and Tom
Howard?
Mrs. OLSEN. No; I think Andrew was even out of the office quite a bit.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have any occasion to leave Dallas soon after
November 24th, the Sunday when Oswald was shot?
Mrs. OLSEN. How soon? What do you mean?
Mr. SPECTER. Within a few days?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you go to work in Oklahoma City?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; that was about—I think it was about 2 weeks after. I
wanted to make some money for Christmas.
Mr. SPECTER. For whom did you work in Oklahoma City?
Mrs. OLSEN. It was the Kings Club. I can’t remember.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you have an arrangement to go up there to work?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; an agent got me a booking.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you make that arrangement to go there to work?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, within that 2 weeks afterward.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Tammi True in Oklahoma City?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; I stayed with her; we shared a room.
Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you tell her?
Mrs. OLSEN. Oh, we discussed a lot of things about it.
Mr. SPECTER. What did you talk about with respect to Jack Ruby?
Mrs. OLSEN. What a crazy thing he did. And that I would never go back
to work there. That was about it.
Mr. SPECTER. How long did you stay with Tammi True?
Mrs. OLSEN. Three weeks.
Mr. SPECTER. Where did she live?
Mrs. OLSEN. We had a motel. It was the club owner’s motel where he
rented to the entertainers. I can’t remember the name of it.
Mr. SPECTER. Was there any other reason why you left Dallas to go to
Oklahoma City?
Mrs. OLSEN. No; just to make some money for Christmas.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mr. Olsen have an accident at about that time?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; while I was up there.
Mr. SPECTER. What happened to him exactly?
Mrs. OLSEN. He totaled his car; hit a telephone pole.
Mr. SPECTER. When you say “totaled,” you mean a total wreck?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. What injuries, if any, did he sustain?
Mrs. OLSEN. I think he broke two bones in his leg and he separated his
shoulder and he had multiple chest injuries, black eye.
Mr. SPECTER. Was he hospitalized?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Where?
Mrs. OLSEN. Methodist Hospital.
Mr. SPECTER. Why did you later go to California?
Mrs. OLSEN. Why did we come out here?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Mrs. OLSEN. Well, we had no desire to stay in Dallas. He used up all
his sick time on the police department, and, well, we wanted to come
out here a year—well, last August we were going to come out here and
we didn’t have enough money, and then he got his settlement from the
car and I saved a little money and so we just came out here. We always
wanted to come out to California.
Mr. SPECTER. Going back to the Friday of the assassination and the
following Saturday and the following Sunday when Oswald was shot,
during that time did you see or talk to Little Lynn?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. During that time did you see or talk to Tammi True?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. During that time did you see or talk to Bruce Carlin?
Mrs. OLSEN. Who?
Mr. SPECTER. Bruce Carlin.
Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know who that is.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know a Bruce Carlin?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. During that time did you see or talk to Tom O’Grady?
Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know him.
Mr. SPECTER. During that time did you see or talk to Blackie Harrison?
Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know him either.
Mr. SPECTER. During that same time did you see or talk to Ralph Paul?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes; I called him on the—oh, now, wait. You are saying from
the Friday to the Sunday?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. When did you talk to Ralph Paul?
Mrs. OLSEN. I guess it was Monday when they reopened the club. I think
that was the day they reopened it, I’m not sure.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you see Ralph Paul in person or did you talk to him on
the telephone?
Mrs. OLSEN. I talked to him on the telephone and I told him I wasn’t
coming back to work, and he said, “Well, it’s up to you.” He was very
cool.
Mr. SPECTER. What connection, if any, did he have with the Carousel
Club?
Mrs. OLSEN. I think he is the owner.
Mr. SPECTER. The coowner with Ruby?
Mrs. OLSEN. I thought Jack Ruby was just like managing it, you know, a
front; that Ralph had all the money in the place.
Mr. SPECTER. What else was in that conversation between you and Ralph
Paul, if anything?
Mrs. OLSEN. That was it.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Ralph Paul tell you that Ruby told him Saturday night
he was going to shoot Oswald?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Are you sure?
Mrs. OLSEN. I’m sure.
Mr. SPECTER. Did Paul tell you anything about what Ruby told him?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. During the time from that Friday, November 22, until the
following Sunday on November 24, did you see or talk to George Senator?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. During that time did you see or talk to Eva Grant?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Or Breck Wall?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Or Mickey Ryan?
Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know him—oh, yes; I do; but I didn’t see him.
Mr. SPECTER. During that same time did you see or talk to Tom Howard?
Mrs. OLSEN. No. Now, this is the Friday to the Sunday, right?
Mr. SPECTER. Yes.
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Lieutenant Butler, did you see or talk to Lieutenant
Butler during that time?
Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know him.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Detective L. D. Miller?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you make any other telephone calls during that time
from November 22 to November 24?
Mrs. OLSEN. Other than girl friends?
Mr. SPECTER. Other than the ones you have already told me about.
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you receive any telephone calls from the day of the
assassination until the following Sunday, other than those you have
already told me about?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever see or hear of Oswald before November 22?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Bertha Cheek?
Mrs. OLSEN. Is this who they call Aunt Bertha, the one that works at
the Colony Club?
Mr. SPECTER. I am not able to say.
Mrs. OLSEN. Well, that’s the only Bertha I know. I have worked with her.
Mr. SPECTER. Did you ever know of any Bertha Cheek who operated an
apartment house?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know Eugene Smith?
Mrs. OLSEN. No.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether Jack Ruby was ever a member of any
subversive organization which advocated the forceful overthrow of the
U.S. Government?
Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know whether any of his family of friends was ever
a member of such an organization?
Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know that either.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Ruby’s trip to Cuba?
Mrs. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Mr. Ruby’s attitude towards the
John Birch Society?
Mrs. OLSEN. No, sir.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you know anything about Mr. Ruby’s attitude towards the
Minutemen?
Mrs. OLSEN. I don’t know what that means.
Mr. SPECTER. Do you have anything to add which you think might be
helpful in any way to the President’s Commission?
Mrs. OLSEN. No. I wish I could help you, but that’s about all I can
remember, just as an employee and that’s about it.
Mr. SPECTER. Before the oath was administered to you, that is, before
I swore you in, did you and I have a very brief conversation about the
subject matter that I would ask you about during this deposition?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. And did you answer the questions for me at that time in
the same way that you have on the record here this afternoon?
Mrs. OLSEN. Yes.
Mr. SPECTER. Mrs. Olsen, we permit the witnesses to read the
depositions and to sign them if they wish to do so, and during the
course of the deposition with Mr. Olsen, it was concluded that he would
read and sign his deposition, so this transcript, which is the typing
up of the questions and answers, will be made available to you to read
and sign.
Mrs. OLSEN. Okay.
Mr. SPECTER. And that concludes the deposition and we thank you very
much for coming here today.
Mrs. OLSEN. All right.
Transcriber’s Notes
Punctuation was made consistent when a predominant preference was found
in this book; otherwise it were not changed. Omitted question marks not
remedied.
Misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed.
Simple typographical errors were corrected; occasional unbalanced
quotation marks corrected when proper placement was clear.
Ambiguous hyphens at the ends of lines were retained; occurrences of
inconsistent hyphenation have not been changed.
Text uses both “twistboards” and “twist boards”.
Page 80: “look at photograph L” may have been printed as “look at
photograph I.”
Page 163: “50 shares” was printed that way; elsewhere, the quantity is
500.
Page 190: “make me go in in early” was printed that way.
Page 280: One of the questions asked by Mr. Griffin was identified as
being asked by Mr. Wilson. Corrected here.
Page 301: “having one to the Southland Hotel” likely is a misprint for
“gone”.
Page 305: “first started to work for him” was misprinted as “stated”.
Corrected here.
Page 306: “put a pouch on him” was printed that way.
Page 318: Transcriber added missing closing quotation mark after “talk
to down there?”
Page 322: There is an extra closing quotation mark in the text at the
top of the page, after “Jack told him”, or a missing opening quotation
mark.
Page 432: Transcriber added a closing quotation mark after “closed
Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.”
Page 443: “acquaintenance” was printed that way.
Page 485: Transcriber added a closing quotation mark after “You think
you will be all right”.
Page 571: “it would not completely accurate” was printed that way, but
is missing the word “be”.
Page 614: “or any other other Federal agency” was printed that way.
Page 620: “that might have have happened” was printed that way.
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