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Title: Warren Commission (15 of 26): Hearings Vol. XV (of 15)
Author: Commission, Warren
Language: English
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    INVESTIGATION OF

    THE ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT JOHN F. KENNEDY

    HEARINGS
    Before the President’s Commission
    on the Assassination
    of President Kennedy

PURSUANT TO EXECUTIVE ORDER 11130, an Executive order creating a
Commission to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating
to the assassination of the late President John F. Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of the man charged with the assassination and
S.J. RES. 137, 88TH CONGRESS, a concurrent resolution conferring upon
the Commission the power to administer oaths and affirmations, examine
witnesses, receive evidence, and issue subpenas


_Volume_ XV


UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE

WASHINGTON, D.C.



U.S. GOVERNMENT PRINTING OFFICE, WASHINGTON: 1964

For sale in complete sets by the Superintendent of Documents, U.S.
Government Printing Office Washington, D.C., 20402



    PRESIDENT’S COMMISSION
    ON THE
    ASSASSINATION OF PRESIDENT KENNEDY


    CHIEF JUSTICE EARL WARREN, _Chairman_

    SENATOR RICHARD B. RUSSELL
    SENATOR JOHN SHERMAN COOPER
    REPRESENTATIVE HALE BOGGS
    REPRESENTATIVE GERALD R. FORD
    MR. ALLEN W. DULLES
    MR. JOHN J. McCLOY


    J. LEE RANKIN, _General Counsel_


    _Assistant Counsel_

    FRANCIS W. H. ADAMS
    JOSEPH A. BALL
    DAVID W. BELIN
    WILLIAM T. COLEMAN, Jr.
    MELVIN ARON EISENBERG
    BURT W. GRIFFIN
    LEON D. HUBERT, Jr.
    ALBERT E. JENNER, Jr.
    WESLEY J. LIEBELER
    NORMAN REDLICH
    W. DAVID SLAWSON
    ARLEN SPECTER
    SAMUEL A. STERN
    HOWARD P. WILLENS[A]

[A] Mr. Willens also acted as liaison between the Commission and the
Department of Justice.


    _Staff Members_

    PHILLIP BARSON
    EDWARD A. CONROY
    JOHN HART ELY
    ALFRED GOLDBERG
    MURRAY J. LAULICHT
    ARTHUR MARMOR
    RICHARD M. MOSK
    JOHN J. O’BRIEN
    STUART POLLAK
    ALFREDDA SCOBEY
    CHARLES N. SHAFFER, Jr.

Biographical information on the Commissioners and the staff can be
found in the Commission’s _Report_.



Preface


The testimony of the following witnesses is contained in volume
XV; Hyman Rubenstein, a brother of Jack L. Ruby; Glen D. King,
administrative assistant to the chief of the Dallas police; C. Ray
Hall, an FBI agent who interviewed Ruby; Charles Batchelor, assistant
chief of the Dallas police; Jesse E. Curry, chief of the Dallas police;
M. W. Stevenson, deputy chief of the Dallas police; Elgin English
Crull, city manager of Dallas; J. W. Fritz, captain in charge of the
Dallas Homicide Bureau; Roland A. Cox, a Dallas policeman; Harold J.
Fleming, vice president of the Armored Motor Car Service of Dallas,
and Don Edward Goin, Marvin E. Hall and Edward C. Dietrich, employees
of the Armored Motor Car Service; Capt. Cecil E. Talbert of the Dallas
Police Department, who was in charge of the patrol division on November
26, 1963; Marjorie R. Richey, James Thomas Aycox, Thomas Stewart
Palmer, Joseph Weldon Johnson, Jr., Edward J. Pullman, Herbert B.
Kravitz, Joseph Rossi, Norman Earl Wright, Lawrence V. Meyers, William
D. Crowe, Jr., Nancy Monnell Powell, Dave L. Miller and Russell Lee
Moore (Knight), former employees, business associates, friends, or
acquaintances of Ruby; Eileen Kaminsky and Eva L. Grant, sisters of
Ruby; George William Fehrenbach, a purported acquaintance of Ruby;
Abraham Kleinman, Ruby’s accountant; Wanda Yvonne Helmick, an employee
of a business associate of Ruby; Kenneth Lawry Dowe, who talked to
Ruby over the telephone on November 23, 1963; T. M. Hansen, Jr., a
Dallas police officer; Nelson Benton, a Dallas news reporter who spoke
with Chief Curry on the morning of November 26; Frank Bellocchio, an
acquaintance of Ruby, who spoke with him on November 23, 1963; Alfred
Douglas Hodge, an acquaintance of Ruby; David L. Johnston, the justice
of the peace who arraigned Oswald for the murder of President Kennedy
and Officer Tippit, and who also gave testimony concerning Ruby’s
whereabouts on November 22, 1963; Stanley M. Kaufman, Ruby’s attorney,
who spoke to him on November 23; William S. Biggio and Clyde Franklin
Goodson, Dallas police officers; Roger C. Warner, a Secret Service
agent who participated in the investigation of the killing of Lee
Harvey Oswald; Seth Kantor, Danny Patrick McCurdy, Victor F. Robertson,
Jr., Frederic Rheinstein, Icarus M. Pappas, John G. McCullough, Wilma
May Tice, John Henry Branch, William Glenn Duncan, Jr., Garnett Claud
Hallmark, John Wilkins Newnam, Robert L. Norton, Roy A. Pryor, Arthur
William Watherwax, Billy A. Rea, Richard L. Saunders, Thayer Waldo,
Ronald Lee Jenkins, Speedy Johnson, and Roy E. Standifer, all of whom
gave testimony concerning Ruby’s whereabouts on November 22 and/or
November 23, 1963; William Kline and Oran Pugh, U.S. Customs officials
who gave testimony regarding their knowledge of Oswald’s trip to
Mexico; Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt, a photography expert with the FBI; and
Bruce Ray Carlin, Mrs. Bruce Carlin, and Ralph Paul, acquaintances
of Jack Ruby; Harry Tasker, taxicab driver in Dallas; Paul Morgan
Stombaugh, hair and fiber expert, FBI; Alwyn Cole, questioned document
examiner, Treasury Department; B. M. Patterson and L. J. Lewis,
witnesses in the vicinity of the Tippit crime scene; Arthur Mandella,
fingerprint expert, New York City Police Department; John F. Gallagher,
FBI agent; and Revilo Pendleton Oliver, member of the council of the
John Birch Society.



Contents


                                                   Page
  Preface                                             v

  Testimony of--
    Hyman Rubenstein                                  1
    William S. Biggio                                48
    Glen D. King                                     51
    C. Ray Hall                                      62
    Seth Kantor                                      71
    William D. Crowe, Jr.                            96
    Charles Batchelor                               114
    Jesse E. Curry                             124, 641
    M. W. Stevenson                                 133
    Elgin English Crull                             138
    J. W. Fritz                                     145
    Roland A. Cox                                   153
    Harold J. Fleming                               159
    Don Edward Goin                                 168
    Marvin E. Hall                                  174
    Cecil E. Talbert                                182
    Marjorie R. Richey                              192
    James Thomas Aycox                              203
    Thomas Stewart Palmer                           206
    Joseph Weldon Johnson, Jr                       218
    Edward J. Pullman                               222
    Herbert B. Kravitz                              231
    Joseph Rossi                                    235
    Norman Earl Wright                              244
    Russell Lee Moore (Knight)                      251
    Edward C. Dietrich                              269
    Eileen Kaminsky                                 275
    George William Fehrenbach                       289
    Eva L. Grant                                    321
    Victor F. Robertson, Jr.                        347
    Frederic Rheinstein                             354
    Icarus M. Pappas                                360
    John G. McCullough                              373
    Abraham Kleinman                                383
    Wilma May Tice                                  388
    Wanda Yvonne Helmick                            396
    Nancy Monnell Powell                            404
    Kenneth Lawry Dowe                              430
    T. M. Hansen, Jr.                               438
    Dave L. Miller                                  450
    Nelson Benton                                   456
    Frank Bellocchio                                466
    John Henry Branch                               473
    William Glenn Duncan, Jr.                       482
    Garnett Claud Hallmark                          488
    Alfred Douglas Hodge                            494
    David L. Johnston                               503
    Stanley M. Kaufman                              513
    Danny Patrick McCurdy                           529
    John Wilkins Newnam                             534
    Robert L. Norton                                546
    Roy A. Pryor                                    554
    Arthur William Watherwax                        564
    Billy A. Rea                                    571
    Richard L. Saunders                             577
    Thayer Waldo                                    585
    Clyde Franklin Goodson                          596
    Ronald Lee Jenkins                              600
    Speedy Johnson                                  607
    Roy E. Standifer                                614
    Roger C. Warner                                 619
    Lawrence V. Meyers                              620
    William Kline                                   640
    Oran Pugh                                       640
    Bruce Ray Carlin                                641
    Mrs. Bruce Carlin                               656
    Ralph Paul                                      664
    Harry Tasker                                    679
    Lyndal L. Shaneyfelt                            686
    Paul Morgan Stombaugh                           702
    L. J. Lewis                                     703
    Alwyn Cole                                      703
    Revilo Pendleton Oliver                         709
    B. M. Patterson                                 744
    Arthur Mandella                                 745
    John F, Gallagher                               746
    Index to Volumes I-XV                           753


EXHIBITS INTRODUCED

                                                   Page
  Aycox Exhibit No. 1                               206

  Bellocchio Exhibit No. 1                          469

  Branch Exhibit No. 1                              474

  Carlin Exhibit No.:
    1                                               655
    2                                               655
    3                                               655
    4                                               655

  Cole Exhibit No.:
    1                                               704
    2                                               704
    3                                               704
    4                                               704
    5                                               704
    6                                               704
    7                                               705
    8                                               706
    9                                               706

  Crowe Exhibit No.:
    1                                               110
    2                                               110

  Crull Exhibit No. 1                               140

  Dowe Exhibit No.:
    1                                               436
    2                                               436

  Duncan Exhibit No.:
    1                                               483
    2                                               484

  Fehrenbach Exhibit No.:
    1                                               295
    2                                               311
    3                                               312
    4                                               317
    5                                               317
    6                                               314
    7                                               318

  Fleming Exhibit No. 1                             160

  Gallagher Exhibit No. 1                           750

  Goodson Exhibit No. 1                             597

  Hall (C. Kay) Exhibit No.:
    1                                                66
    2                                                66
    3                                                68
    4                                                67

  Hall (Marvin E.) Exhibit No. 1                    175

  Hallmark Exhibit No. 1                            489

  Hansen Exhibit No.:
    1                                               445
    2                                               445

  Helmick Exhibit No. 1                             403

  Hodge Exhibit No. 1                               495

  Jenkins Exhibit No. 1                             601

  Johnson Exhibit No. 1                             614

  Johnston Exhibit No.:
    1                                               509
    2                                               509
    3                                               513
    4                                               513
    5                                               513

  Kantor Exhibit No.:
    1                                                75
    2                                                83
    3                                                92
    4                                                92
    5                                                93
    6                                                94
    7                                                94
    8                                                94

  Kaufman Exhibit No. 1                             515

  King Exhibit No.:
    1                                                59
    2                                                59
    3                                                59
    4                                                60
    5                                                62

  Kleinman Exhibit No. 1                            387

  Knight Exhibit No. 1                              266

  Kravitz Exhibit No. 1                             234

  McCullough Exhibit No.:
    1                                               380
    2                                               380

  McCurdy Exhibit No. 1                             529

  Miller Exhibit No. 1                              454

  Newnam Exhibit No.:
    1                                               537
    2                                               538
    3                                               538
    4                                               535

  Norton Exhibit No. 1                              549

  Oliver Exhibit No.:
     1                                              713
     2                                              713
     3                                              717
     4                                              722
     5                                              723
     6                                              732
     7                                              737
     8                                              738
     9                                              741
    10                                              741
    11                                              743
    12                                              743

  Pappas Exhibit No.:
    1                                               370
    2                                               370
    3                                               371
    4                                               371

  Patterson Exhibit:
    A                                               744
    B                                               745

  Powell Exhibit No.:
    1                                               420
    2                                               429
    3                                               430

  Pryor Exhibit No. 1                               555

  Pullman Exhibit No. 1                             231

  Rea Exhibit No. 1                                 573

  Richey Exhibit No. 1                              196

  Robertson Exhibit No.:
    1                                               354
    2                                               354

  Rossi Exhibit No. 1                               241

  Rubenstein Exhibit No.:
    1                                                35
    2                                                35
    3                                                44
    4                                                45
    5                                                47

  Saunders Exhibit No. 1                            577

  Shaneyfelt Exhibit No.:
     8                                              687
     9                                              687
    10                                              687
    11                                              687
    12                                              687
    13                                              687
    14                                              687
    15                                              689
    16                                              689
    17                                              690
    18                                              690
    19                                              690
    20                                              690
    21                                              690
    22                                              690
    23                                              692
    24                                              694
    25                                              696
    26                                              697
    27                                              698
    28                                              698
    29                                              698
    30                                              698
    31                                              698
    32                                              698
    33                                              698
    34                                              700
    35                                              700
    36                                              701

  Standifer Exhibit No. 1                           615

  Stombaugh Exhibit No.:
    1                                               702
    2                                               702
    3                                               702
    4                                               702
    5                                               702
    6                                               702

  Talbert Exhibit No.:
    1                                               186
    2                                               186

  Tice Exhibit No. 1                                395

  Waldo Exhibit No. 1                               586

  Wright Exhibit No. 1                              250



Hearings Before the President’s Commission

on the

Assassination of President Kennedy



TESTIMONY OF HYMAN RUBENSTEIN

The testimony of Hyman Rubenstein was taken at 9:20 a.m., on June
5, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Burt
Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.


Mr. GRIFFIN. My name is Burt Griffin, and I am a member of the staff
of the General Counsel’s Office of the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy.

I have been authorized under the rules of procedure of the Commission
to take your deposition here today, Mr. Rubenstein.

I might tell you a little bit about the Commission before we go into
the testimony.

The Commission was established under an Executive order of President
Johnson and under a joint resolution of Congress on November 29, 1963,
to investigate and evaluate the facts and report back to President
Johnson on the assassination of President Kennedy and the facts
surrounding the murder of Lee Oswald.

In asking you to come here today, we are particularly concerned with
the information you may be able to bring to bear upon the murder of Lee
Oswald.

Now, under the authorization setting up this Commission by the
President and by Congress, the Commission is authorized to promulgate
certain rules of procedure, and pursuant to those rules of procedure,
the Commission has authority to issue subpenas and to require witnesses
to attend here.

In pursuance of those rules we have sent you a letter. I want to ask
you now if you did receive the letter. You are pointing to your inside
coat pocket.

Can you tell us when you received the letter from the Commission?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I, that I, can’t tell you because I was gone out of
town all last week, and I came in Monday night, and I didn’t open my
mail until Tuesday morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you did see the letter on Tuesday.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Definitely. It was too late for me to get here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The reason I ask is that you are privileged to have 3
days’ notice before you come here and I wanted to make sure we had
given you the 3-day notice.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It probably was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you are also entitled under the rules of the
Commission to have an attorney with you if you desire, and I see you
don’t have one here so I take it it is not your desire to have one.

Incidentally, in the letter that we sent you did you get a copy of some
rules of procedure?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I wasn’t worried about it because I felt I have nothing
to hide to tell you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you have any questions that you want to
ask about the general nature of what the proceeding will be before I
administer the oath?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; but I think it is going to be very interesting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to raise your right hand if you will. Do
you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give is the truth,
the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would, give the court reporter your name.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Hyman Rubenstein.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Rubenstein.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. 1044 Loyola Avenue.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Chicago?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Chicago, 26.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you lived there?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. 6 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us when you were born?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. December 28, 1901.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you born?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Warsaw, Poland.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you come to this country?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. When I was 2½ years old.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been in 1903?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t--all right, put it down, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The only recollection, I take it, you have----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. From my folks when they told us when they came here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation at the present time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I am a salesman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who do you work for?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I work for Davidson and Uphoff.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where is that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. 448 Mark Avenue, Clarendon Hills, Ill.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you sell?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Florist supplies.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do those consist of?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Bird cages, stands, different things that the florists
sell in their shops and greenhouses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you obliged to travel in the course of your employment?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Almost constantly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us a general idea of the area that you travel
in?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Sure. Now, I cover Michigan. I have covered Wisconsin,
Illinois, Minnesota, Iowa, Kentucky, and Tennessee. With different
firms but related to the same field.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been covering Michigan?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. 11, 12 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You said now you cover Michigan. I take it at the present
time----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. This is a new firm I am with.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the present time you don’t cover any State other than
Michigan?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; except this. In 1963 the firm I was with in New
York, the Lewis Ribbon Co., merged with the International Artware
Co. of Cleveland, so I had to go in business for myself. So, I still
cover the same territory for myself as I did with Lewis Ribbon Co. in
1963. So I had a lot of money outstanding so I am trying to pick that
up little by little as I am traveling through Illinois and eventually
will travel through Wisconsin to pick up money I have coming from
merchandise I have sold.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you leave the Lewis Ribbon Co.?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. 1963; January 1st.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you went into business for yourself?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What business did you go into then?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Same business, ribbons.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were these sold to floral customers?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right. The same customers I had before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you begin to work for the Davidson-Uphoff Co.?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Last month.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. So between approximately last January and last
month or January 1963 and last month, you were employed for yourself,
is that correct?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Practically.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Practically?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I mean because I haven’t done much work since the
incidents down in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. When you were employed for yourself did you travel
in any States other than Michigan?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; Illinois and Wisconsin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of your time was spent in each of those States?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. For one trip complete? In other words, if I had to make
a State complete time, how much time would I spend in that State?

Mr. GRIFFIN. In a typical 3-month period, for example.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I could cover a State in 3 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you were traveling in the fall of
1963, what State?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; I had just come back from Michigan.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when you began traveling in Michigan?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; but I could have told you that if I had my records
here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wanted to get a little background on yourself before we
go into some general questions. You say you came to this country when
you were about 2½?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you come to Chicago?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. I don’t think we did. I think, of course,
I think we stopped off in New York, and then I think we came to
Chicago. My father was here first.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was your father here?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He--about a year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you say you are not sure where you came to. Did you
have a permanent home any place before you moved to Chicago?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So your first permanent home in this country was in
Chicago and I take it that would have been shortly after you arrived in
the country?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you lived in Chicago all your life?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Except when I was in the service or where else, except
when I travel but outside of--my voting is right here in Chicago, my
voting residence.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you in military service?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. From October 1942, until April 1943.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you serve?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Fort Lewis, Wash.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that in the army?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. In the army.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Fort Lewis near Seattle?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall a man when you were in the service by the
name of Sloan, a man from Chicago by the name of Sloan?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. What business was he in or what was he doing?

Mr. GRIFFIN. He would have been in the service out in Seattle, in the
Washington area.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The name doesn’t ring.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if your brothers visited you at any time
while you were in the service?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. In the service?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. We were scattered all over the earth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this in the army, your military service?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what did you do, what rank did you attain?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I was a private. I was at 210 Field Artillery, 33d
Division.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You spent all of your time at Fort Lewis?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, we were 1 day at Rockford, you know, they throw
a uniform at you and then they put you on the train and you are on the
train for 3 days, and then you wind up at Fort Lewis.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You left the service----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; we were in Yakima for cannon training.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You left the service in 1943?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the reason for your leaving?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Overage. They told me they had no more use for me. They
apologized, I had a good record. I got an excellent discharge, they
were sorry but they wanted a younger man in my place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you left the service?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I stayed in Seattle.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you stay there?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. About 10 weeks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I signed up with the U.S. Army Engineers to go to
Alaska, to go to work as a carpenter. I felt I wanted to do something.
They were going to build barracks out there. I waited and waited and
waited and I got tired of waiting, so I asked the company that hired me
to release me, because they did not know when I would be put on a boat
to go across. The Army would have allowed only two men, civilians, with
the regular soldiers to go across Alaska at a time.

Well, I probably would have been there for 4 years waiting yet so I
decided to ask for a release, and they gave me a release and I went
back to Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So the 10 weeks you spent waiting?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I worked; I worked part time for the Seaboard Lumber Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the reason you were there was because you were waiting
to go to Alaska?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Definitely. In fact, I had my tools sent to me, my
father’s tools.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you worked as a carpenter before?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And on your return to Chicago what did you do?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I took odd jobs, whatever I could get to make a buck,
you know, salesman on the road. I am trying to think what I sold,
novelties, premiums, different things that you could get. A lot of
items you couldn’t get, there was a scarcity, so you sold what you
could obtain from different companies or different friends who were in
business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work for any particular company?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I am trying to think. I can’t think of any particular
company I worked for. I probably bought stuff myself and sold it on the
road.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I have in front of me your social security, a summary of
your social security record. Do you remember working for the Arlington
Park Jockey Club?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Ben Lindheimer--how did that work out, I am trying to
think. I worked there just before I got in the service, and then I was
drafted, that was the last job I believe I had at the Arlington Park
Jockey Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your social security record indicates that you worked for
the Arlington Park Jockey Club in 1943.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Then I probably went back there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In fact all of 1943, and in 1942 with the exception of the
fourth quarter of 1942.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I was in the army for 6 months, how could that possibly
be?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. When did you go in the army in 1942?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. October.

Mr. GRIFFIN. October. And when were you separated from the service in
1943?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. About April.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, that would be understandable.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Is it October? Because I know I was in the service for
6 months. That I am positive of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now do you recall when you left the service coming back to
work for the Arlington Park Jockey Club?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t recall but I probably did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do for them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. You are a ticket puncher like he is doing now. You come
over and ask for number two I gave you number two. You ask for number
five, I gave you number five.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You worked in the mutuel window?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes, mutuel window.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your record here indicates that you didn’t have any
employment covered by social security from 1944 to early 1949.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Then----

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were you doing during that period after you left the
Washington Park Jockey Club, and actually the last place you worked at
the National Jockey Club.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know about the names of the jockey club but I
worked at the racetrack for a while as a mutuel ticket seller.

As I said before, and I am repeating again, that I bought what I could
and sold on the road for myself, and I made a living that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

It is my understanding you were selling novelties?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Novelties, premiums, punchboards, that is about it.
That covers a lot of territory.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What part of the country did you travel in when you were
doing that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I covered the Middle West.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you cover any of the South?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No. I never cared much for the South.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall in the latter part of 1949 working in
Ripley, Ohio?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do there?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I was a bartender for a friend of mine, Bob Knoff. He
owned a tavern, the Riviera Cafe at Front and Main Streets, and Bob
said to me, I came down to visit him and he said “What are you doing?”
And I said, “Bumming around, making a few bucks selling items.” He
said, “I need a bartender. Help me out for a while.” I said, “OK.” So
I stayed with him, I don’t know, for about a year, about a year or so,
about a year, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. 6 months.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. All right, 6 months. I don’t remember. 1949. Then I
went back to Chicago. I fixed a few things for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you worked for Mr. Knoff?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. What year was that, 1949?

Mr. GRIFFIN. 1949, 1950.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I went back to my own business again, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me just ask you if you remember working for some of
these companies and then I will ask you some general questions.

Do you remember working for the Fisher Pen Co.?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that a----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Paul Fisher is a very dear friend of mine, salesman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Chicago Cardboard Co.?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is the punchboard outfit I told you about, Chicago
Cardboard was a punchboard outfit and Paul Fisher, I covered Chicago
territory for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you worked for the punchboard company where did you
travel?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Wisconsin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Parliament Sales Corp., do you remember
working for them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I sold television sets for them only in Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Enterprise Contract Consultants, do you
remember working for them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t even know who they are.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They were located on Milwaukee Avenue in Chicago.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is the same thing, must be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Same thing?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think it was the same outfit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Just changed the name?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Could be. You never can tell about those outfits. Oh,
they had to change their name, I believe, because they were using the
word “Paramount.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Parliament.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. And they changed it to Parliament to make it sound like
Paramount because Paramount wouldn’t let them use their name.

What is this Enterprise deal?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know, that is why I am asking you.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t recall, either. How long did I work there?

Mr. GRIFFIN. About 6 months.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. What did they make?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I am asking.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Were they located on Milwaukee Avenue?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Then it must be the same outfit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were the people who ran it?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. One fellow was a nice guy and I still see him
occasionally in Chicago, Oscar Fishbein, he is president of the firm, I
believe, and I still believe he is still in business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the G.T. & I.T. Drake Co.?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That was in 1950.

Mr. GRIFFIN. 1952.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. 1952. I bought a suburban carryall from a friend of
mine by the name of Harry King.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Carryall or carryout?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Carryall. It is called a suburban carryall. It is a car
that is designed to carry all, with glass all around it, and it looked
like a small truck where the doors opened up in back like this so you
could load and unload easily. I saw an ad in the paper, this Drake
outfit, the restaurant outfit, $100 a week, and $100 a week in 1952,
gentlemen, is a lot of money.

So, here is how it worked. I delivered, unloaded, and loaded food items
for, they paid me $60 a week and $40 for the car expense that was $100
a week. It was a hard job but I took it because it paid well. That was
it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember working for Miracle Enterprises?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Miracle?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never heard of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been another name for Parliament Sales?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It could have been. What address?

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you worked for the Drake Co., who
did you work for?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I went to work for the Lewis Ribbon Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember going back to work for a few months for
Fishbein?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then I take it, you worked for the Lewis Ribbon Co., just
simply tell me if this is correct, from early 1953 until you left them.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Ten years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In January of 1964.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Ten years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to leave them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. They merged with the International Artware of Cleveland
and they sold out. My territory was already absorbed by International’s
men. In fact, they had three men in my three states and they had
no room for me and felt rather bad about it because I am a rather
conscientious worker, I like people, I don’t have trouble selling them
legitimate merchandise and I liked the work and I was doing pretty
good and they felt very bad. They promised me as soon as there was an
opening they would let me know. So that is the story.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to go back a few years more now. Was your
childhood spent in Chicago?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And I take it you went to school in Chicago?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far did you go in school?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I had a couple of years of college.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of college. Where did you go to college?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The YMCA Junior College.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In Chicago?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. In Chicago, and the Lewis Institute.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of courses did you take?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. General courses. I was studying prelaw. I wanted to
become a lawyer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you attend these institutions?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I would say around 1933, 1934, 1935, 1936.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you were working at the same time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Working at the same time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, going back to your earlier childhood, how many years
of continuous formal education did you have until you left school the
first time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, I graduated high school.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you graduated from high school, and then what did you
do after you graduated from high school?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I took whatever job I could to sustain myself and help
out the family once in a while when I could.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What year would it have been that you graduated from high
school?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I graduated in February 1922 from Hyde Park High.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was your family living at that time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. They were separated. The folks were living, my mother
was living, with the children, I think on the west side, and I was
living on the south side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living with any other members of your family?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you been separated from the family?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I left home when I was, right after I graduated grammar
school, when I was about 15. That was in 1916, around 1916 or 1917.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go to live?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I went to the Deborah Boys Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you live there?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. About 3 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of place was that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It was a club for boys who had no home, but they had to
work or go to school. I did both. I worked after school.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You lived there for about 3 years?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I would say about 3 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Until you were about 18, I take it?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. 15 to 18. But you say you finished high school in 1922.
What did you do after you left the Deborah Boys Club?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I got, I believe I got a room with another fellow at
4907 Vincennes Avenue, and worked after school, and I continued going
to school and worked, whatever I could do after school. Some jobs were
easy and some jobs were tough.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you live with this other fellow?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Until I graduated.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Until about 1922?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I would say that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During this period from 1916 until 1922, when you returned
to the family home, what contact did you have with your family?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I used to see them, used to go over there, bring them
different things, try to talk to the kids, and see that they tried to
get along and have what they needed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to go to live at the Deborah Boys Club?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I had a fight at home and my father wanted me to go to
work and I wanted to go to school because I knew I had to have some
education. But with eight children I could see his point but yet I
wanted to look out for myself, and I probably was advised by some of my
friends that I should leave home, and I did, and through some agency,
I don’t remember how, they suggested it would be best for me if I left
home and they found this place for me, and so I was admitted.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if any juvenile court proceedings were
instituted?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It could have been. It is possible. It is possible
there were some juvenile court proceedings, it is a long time ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who instituted those proceedings?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember. Probably the family service on the
west side in Chicago through my mother’s complaints to this association
about my father.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you having some difficulty with your father at that
time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us about it?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I just wanted to go to school, and he thought I should
go to work.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you recall an incorrigibility proceeding being
instituted against you?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Me?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Incorrigibility?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember any such case.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been about May of 1916 that you went to live
at the Deborah Boys Club?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No, no; it was after I graduated grammar school, and I
graduated in 1917.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. So you would have been 16 or 17 when you went to
live at the Deborah Boys Club?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; it was right after I graduated from grammar school.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you say 1917.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; I was only 15½ when I graduated.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were born in 1901?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; close to 1902, though, you see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t recall any juvenile court proceedings against
you in the early part of 1916, in May of 1916.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall being under the supervision of a probation
officer?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, tell us about that.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything about the supervision, what did
you have to do?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Nothing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t have to report?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, maybe I had to report but I don’t remember what
the incident was. I don’t remember who the supervisor was or what I had
to do to report.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t remember how the proceeding was instituted, who
instituted, the proceeding against you?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember. It is almost 50 years ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you return to the family in 1922?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think I did. I wanted to stay with the family to see
what I could do to keep them together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During the period that you were away from the family were
other members of the family also separated?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; I think Earl and Sammy went to live on a farm.
Jack went to live on the north side, northwest side. I don’t know about
the girls. I don’t remember about the girls.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall who Jack went to live with?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; but it was a very nice family on the northwest
side. That is where he met a lot of his northwest-side friends.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you be more precise about the northwest side?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I couldn’t because I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your mother was maintaining a home while you were at the
boys club. Where was her home at the time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. We moved to so many places, I wouldn’t know exactly, on
the west side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the west side?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; but I don’t remember the addresses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it be northwest?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; straight west, around Roosevelt Road, that would be
the best specific spot that I can give you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you, during your childhood while the family was
together, did you always live around Roosevelt Road?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you always live in the same ward? Do you remember in
terms of wards where you lived?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; it could be divided between the 24th ward and the
29th ward.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. And one ward crossed the other, the boundary lines.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When you did return home about 1922 was your
father living in the home at that time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did your father finally come back to the home?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember when he came back. I think he came
back after my mother died.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you returned to the home, did all the rest of the
children return at that time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So the family was brought back together somehow?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did that come about?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I couldn’t tell you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was supporting the family by 1922?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. My father, I think, was giving $10 a week, and the
girls were working, I was working, and we tried to keep the rest of the
kids in school.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us--first of all, let me ask you, after 1922,
prior to the time you went into the service, were there any periods
when you weren’t living in the family home?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. When I wasn’t living in the family home?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. After 1922?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I think I stayed home. I thought it my duty, I
believe, to stay home. I think it was that way. I think I felt an
obligation to take care, help take care of the family because my father
wasn’t living with us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack, do you recall when Jack left school?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He went to high school, I think, for 1 year, I believe
he went 1 year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he come to leave school?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. We often wonder ourselves because Jack is
no dummy. He has got a good head on him. I don’t think he liked school,
let’s put it that way. That would be honest. He just did not like
school, that is all there was to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any incidents that you can recall which would
indicate that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He wouldn’t do his homework, that is a good enough
incident.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his companions during that period?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He had nice friends. He always had, because Jack was
a little bit choosy about his friends, I mean it. He always had nice
friends, fellows who either they were doctors’ sons or boys in the
neighborhood that respected Jack, and Jack was more progressive than
the rest of us, was a hustler.

Anything that he could go out and sell and make a dollar, legitimately,
even if he had to go on the road, and sell items, he was always trying
to work, always tried to--he wouldn’t have a steady job, but he was
always on the go thinking of ideas of how to make a dollar and helping
the family.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when he left school what he first started
to do?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is a good question. I imagine--let me think what
he did do. I think he scalped a few tickets during the fights. All
the kids used to do that to try to make an extra buck. That is the
only revelation that I have in my mind, but as far as a steady job was
concerned, no. Jack never cared for no steady jobs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did this particular ticket scalping work, where would
he get the tickets?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Let’s say he borrowed $20 from some friend who had
$20. Two days before the fight he would buy $20 worth of tickets, and
then if the fight was a sellout, he would sell the tickets for maybe
50 cents or a dollar more than what he paid for the ticket and people
would be glad to pay him for it on the outside. So, he would make
himself $5 or $6, and $5 or $6 during those years would go a long way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he buy these tickets at the box office or would
there be somebody else who would go in and buy up a big block of them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; he would go to the box office himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s get back to your own activities a bit. Can you tell
us generally what you did from the time you got out of high school in
1922 until you went into the service in 1942?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I drove a cab for a while, I worked in a drugstore for
a while, worked for Albert Pick and Company, they were a big hotel
supply house on 35th Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do for them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I was an assistant buyer, I want you to know, and I
liked it, it was interesting. I was in politics for a good many years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us about that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Sure. It was during my Deborah Boys Club days, I met
a man by the name of Morris Feiwell, who took a liking to me, and he
encouraged me to finish school, like a sponsor, you know, and when I
graduated he says, “You come on downtown and talk to me. What do you
want to be?” I says, “I don’t know.” He says, “Do you like to study
continuously?” And frankly, I didn’t. He said, “Well, don’t study
law. I was going to put you through law school but if you don’t like
to study continuously after you learn a profession, don’t study law.”
And through him I met many big political men in Chicago, because Mr.
Feiwell was associated to our ex-Governor Henry Horner. Henry Horner
was probate judge of Cook County, and a probate judge in Cook County is
the biggest judge in the area because he took care of 5 million people
probating wills.

The judge took a liking to me because we done certain things, running
errands for him, distributing literature for the campaigns--then I met
different people, I met Ben Lindheimer. Ben Lindheimer was a big man in
Chicago, owned Arlington Park and Washington Park racetracks later on.

He finally became chairman of the Illinois Commerce Commission and also
president of the Board of Local Improvements in Chicago. So, I got
a job as a sidewalk inspector. That is when I decided to go back to
school, because the job as a sidewalk inspector was a political job,
sponsored by Ben Lindheimer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been in the 1930’s sometime.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; 1932 or 1933, right. So, I figured why should I
waste my time. I can take care of my job and go to school, and I did
that. I tried to get my prelegal training there. Then in 1932 the
judge ran for governor. Ben Lindheimer became president of the--not
president, chairman of the Commerce Commission, Illinois Commerce
Commission. He took me with him. I became a warehouse investigator. I
was there for 8 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Warehouse investigator for the Illinois Commerce
Commission?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. For 8 years?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What period of time did this cover?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I would say from 1932 to 1941. When the administration
changed I was let go.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were your duties in Chicago or elsewhere?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. In Chicago; no, the entire State. I had to cover quite
a bit of the State of Illinois inspecting warehouses that were licensed
by the Illinois Commerce Commission, and storage houses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would your duties as an inspector involve?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Just to see everything was orderly, clean, fire
extinguishers, clean, clean aisles, nothing to clutter up, so as to
prevent fires, fire doors, to prevent internal combustion, different
things like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during this period that you were with the Illinois
Commerce Commission, were you politically active?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes. Since I had no civil service connections, I was
politically active.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before that period, were you politically active?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; in the local area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this Democratic or Republican politics?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Democratic.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The whole family was Democratic.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us about how you happened to meet--I take
it Mr. Feiwell was the way you got--made your political connections?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Indirectly, not directly, indirectly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. First of all, tell us how you happened to know Mr. Feiwell.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He used to come down to the club and give us talks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What club was that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The Deborah Boys Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. And what sort of work did Mr. Feiwell do?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He was a big lawyer in Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He took a liking to you?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He wanted to encourage me because I was working my
way through high school and he tried to help out all the boys that he
possibly could.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And he made introductions of you to people in politics?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. As I said before indirectly. Let me give you one
example.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. When Henry Horner ran for probate judge in 1928, I
believe, Mr. Feiwell was one of the men in charge of the campaign. So
he didn’t have too much time, so I helped him whatever I could do. If
we had a special meeting for fund raising, I would line up the hall,
get the chairs, see that everything was ready made for the meeting, got
coatracks and hatracks for the men for the meeting and they all got to
know me that way, and so I became officially the sergeant-at-arms, and
so that is how they got to know me. If they wanted something before
they sat down, they told me if they get a telephone call, “Call me out”
or if there was a call I could spot the man right away and tell them
there was a call from out of the hall. Different things like that, that
is how I got acquainted.

Later on I became more important because I knew the ropes a little bit
because I knew what to do without their telling me everything. I knew
how to pick up the printing, how to distribute the literature in the
different wards and so forth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you active in any particular ward yourself or were
you in the downtown headquarters?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Mostly the downtown headquarters.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever on the payroll of the downtown headquarters?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes. I was on the payroll for downtown headquarters.
One year, when Adlai Stevenson was running, I was connected with the
downtown Democratic headquarters at the Morrison Hotel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this after World War II?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes. And they didn’t pay me much, but I was glad to
help out. I think they were paying me $25 a week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to World War II, were you ever on a salary or
payroll for any Democratic club?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No. Only with the job that I had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So your political activities prior to World War II were
on a voluntary basis and would have been in your spare time apart from
your other job?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes. Unless the big men in Chicago once in a while if
they had me do an errand purposely slipped me a $5 bill because they
knew I earned it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion during that period to do any
favors for Jack?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. What Jack, my brother?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your brother Jack.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes. He got in a fight one time with a policeman for
scalping tickets, and so I had to go to court for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know but that was dropped. That is the only
time that I can remember when Jack actually got in trouble where you
might say was minor. Never before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have any occasion to help him get a license
or anything?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I will never forget that as long as I live. Since I was
connected in politics, the man in charge of the vending licenses in the
city of Chicago was a new man, and I didn’t mean to take advantage of
him.

My brother came to me one day in early December one year, “Hy.” “Yes.”
“I would like to get a license for selling novelties on the street at
63d and Halstead.”

You gentlemen must realize that 63d and Halstead is a business district
where no such thing was ever before done because they have their own
business association and no peddlers were allowed on the street, they
have got their stores to worry about. So, I went up to this fellow, who
I got to know very well, and he said, “What can I do for you, Hymie?”
I said, “I have got to have a license for my kid brother.” “Sure, for
Christmas?” “Yes.” “What is he going to sell?” “I don’t know. Probably
toys or gimmicks or whatever he can put on a stand, you know, on the
sidewalk and sell.” As long as he got a permit they can’t bother him.
He says, “What corner do you like?” So, I gave him the corner of 63d
and Halstead. You don’t know, I almost started a small war and they
couldn’t do nothing to Jack because he had that permit. The business
people came downtown and they raised particular hell with the guy in
charge at the license department, and he couldn’t understand it.

Then he calls me, I think I was working at the time for some department
in the city. He said, “Do you realize what you done to me?” I said,
“What did I do to you?” He says, “You almost got me fired.” It was
really funny.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. I can’t remember but I will never forget
that incident, and Jack felt like a hero. He has got a permit. They
can’t do him nothing. The police even tried to chase him off. He says,
“You can’t chase me off, here is my permit,” and the policeman told
these people downtown at 63d and Halstead, he says, “The man has got
a permit. What am I supposed to do, get myself in a jam?” But they
finally had to get him off. They finally realized they made a mistake.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was in the Christmas season?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; during the Christmas holidays when everybody tries
to make a buck for the holidays selling Christmas novelties or toys or
gimmicks on the street, you know. It was terrific. I will never forget
that. That is the kind of a guy Jack was. When he wanted a permit he
used to get one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any other episodes of that nature?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. There could have been but this was the greatest. It is
a wonder I didn’t get fired. I will never forget that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you working for the Illinois Commerce Commission at
that time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think I was at that time because that was the longest
job I had with the city outside of being with the Board of Local
Improvements for a couple of years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Before the Commerce Commission.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mention the period 1932 to 1941 as the Commerce
Commission. Are you clear in your mind that that is when you did start
there, in 1932?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. When Horner got in, I think it was 1932.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And before that you worked for?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The Board of Local Improvements for a couple of years,
sidewalk investigator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that would have taken you back to 1930 perhaps?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. About 1930 or even 1929. I will tell you why. As long
as we had connections in Chicago and things were tough, you know 1929
was a bad year, you wouldn’t remember, but I would, as long as you had
a letter from somebody downtown they were reevaluating all the real
estate in Cook County.

Now, you know that is a tremendous job, fellows, and so I got on. They
weren’t paying us too much in salary, but every morning I had to meet
two real estate men, and I measured the buildings, the length and the
width and the lot, and the stories and we gave a legal description of
the building, reevaluation. That kept on for about a year. That was a
pretty good job with the Board of Review.

So that also kept a lot of us fellows from starving. That was before
the Board of Local Improvements. In the meantime I still kept my
fingers in the politics on the good side with the Democrats in Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you worked for the Board of Local Improvements did
you have any government or city or political jobs before that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I am telling you that was it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was the first one. The Board of Local Improvements
was the first one?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No, the Board of Review.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you worked for the Illinois Commerce Commission in
1932, you worked for the Board of Local Improvements----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. About 1930, and 1929 or 1928, I believe I worked for
the Board of Review.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, between approximately 1922 when you got
out of school and 1928 what did you do during that period?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Worked as a cab driver, worked in a drugstore. I went
on the road as a salesman in 1925.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you sell for?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The Plymouth Rubber Co. of Canton, Mass.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you sell?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Rubber heels to shoemakers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you travel?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. All over the United States.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you do that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. A couple of years, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to leave that job?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I was a missionary man. They broke me in, they tried
to make a salesman out of me and they did, because I done a good job
for them and I worked hard. I liked it, I liked it for two reasons.
Traveling and selling and when you can sell you felt like a moral
victory, you felt that you had a station in life, something to do. The
job just ended. I covered the territory they wanted me to cover. I went
from Chicago to the west coast, Vancouver, Canada, all over the west
coast, all through the Middle West. I don’t think I covered--no, never
went south. I didn’t go south, no. We didn’t cover it. We just covered
the west, kept on going west and west and over to the west coast and up
to Vancouver.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s now shift the focus a little bit and rather talk
about yourself. Now let me ask you some questions about your family,
your early family life.

Was there any discussion in your home as a child of the background of
your parents--where they had come from, what they had done before they
had come to this country?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. My father was a soldier in the Russian Army for about
7 years. If you know the history of the Russian people, one member of
each family must serve, one member. My father was elected to serve.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s just talk about your father for a minute.

As you understand it where was your father born?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Sokolov, a small town outside of Warsaw.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of family did he come from, do you have any idea?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Very nice family, good reputation. His father before
him was a carpenter, his brother Abraham was a carpenter. Very well
respected.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many brothers and sisters did he have?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of his family come to the United States other than
him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. His brother.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Abraham? When did Abraham come?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before or after your father?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think after.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Abraham still alive?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he have a family that is still living?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; he has a son, a doctor, Dr. Hyman Rubenstein, and
he has got about three or four sisters, very nice, family.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do they live?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. On the north side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They are living in Chicago?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. In Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see this family from time to time as you were
children?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Very, not as regularly as we should. We should have
seen them oftener but we didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how often would you say?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Once a year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your father trained as a carpenter?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; in the army.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old was he when he went in the army?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He was a young man, very young.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know what rank he attained?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. According to the thing on his hat for the uniform it
was a No. 2, and he always used to get in trouble with the captain,
but he always would get right with the captain’s wife, he would always
make something for her, a cradle or a chair or something to even up the
score.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you any of his adventures, where he was?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He was in China, but he didn’t like it. He was in Korea
and he didn’t like it. He was in Siberia and he hated it most of all.
He broke away from the army.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to leave?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He just left; walked away, walked away; went over to
England; from England he went to Canada; from Canada he came to the
United States.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when he married your mother was he in the service?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He was in the service; in fact I and my sister were
born when he left Europe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean you were born after he left Europe?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You had been born when he left Europe?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. My sister and I.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the oldest?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is the oldest sister.

Mr. GRIFFIN. She is Ann Volpert?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know where you and your mother stayed when your
father left?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Probably in Warsaw.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know any reason why you did not accompany him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, the only reason I can give you is he had to get
away first. He didn’t want the army to find him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He was really escaping from the army?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right. He didn’t want any more of it. He had it. And I
think there was a Japanese war going to break out there any day, and he
didn’t want no part of that so he just broke away.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if, did he ever mention whether religious
problems were a reason, any factor in his leaving or do you have the
impression it was strictly his dislike for the military service that
caused him to leave?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, you know Jews in the Russian Army is a tough
proposition, a very minority race and he probably didn’t like that,
either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He never mentioned that to you?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No, he wouldn’t anyway. I don’t think he is the type
of a man who would mention things like that. He always felt that he
belonged. We, the Jewish problem was never really brought up. We felt
like if you did you were a coward. The Jewish problem was always kept
to ourselves. Even when I went to high school there wasn’t too many
Jewish people there but we tried to belong. We tried to face it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And your father; I take it from what you say, was very
much this kind of a man that he didn’t outwardly voice any feelings of
sensitivity or separation because of the fact that he was Jewish in
a----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I doubt it. I doubt if he would have said anything.
No, not with him. But if you asked me that about somebody else in our
family----

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about your mother?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No, no; I don’t think she--she just wanted to look out
for my welfare. My mother was very much interested in the welfare, how
we got along, how we got along at school and how our progress was going
with us in Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I take it from what you say also that if your father
had any family back in Europe once he came to this country he didn’t
maintain contact with them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t think he ever got one letter. I don’t remember
ever hearing a word of his family in Europe; not one word. We would
have known about it. If he heard anything about the family indirectly
it was through somebody else. Somebody else from his home town might
have gotten a letter and mentioned the fact that so and so----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he go into the service with any of his brothers?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Who?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your father.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I told you there was only one member taken from a
family.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The reason I ask you is I believe that in one of the
newspaper articles about Jack’s life that was serialized the story was
told by the newspaper reporter that your father had joined the service
with his two brothers and that your father and his two brothers married
your mother and her two sisters.

Do you ever recall a story like that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never. I don’t even remember seeing the article. I
don’t think it is true.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to ask questions about your mother’s family
then. Did your mother talk about her family background?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Except her father was a very important man in the
community. He was like a doctor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say like a doctor?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. That is the expression they used at home.
I don’t know. You know, you are going back 4 or 5 thousand miles, and
that is the expression that was used.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; but I take it the words “like a doctor” were used
which sort of indicated to you that maybe he wasn’t quite a doctor or
something similar to it.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Like a pharmacist?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Could have been. I know he went out and took care of
people and my mother was called in to take care of the family when
somebody was sick.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your mother was?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Do you follow me?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. My mother went along as a servant to take care of the
needs of the family that was sick. Her father took care of the family
in a medical way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is the impression that I always had from the
stories we gathered at home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your mother spend her life around Warsaw, her early
life?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I suppose, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall her talking about her life in Europe where
she came from?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; I think Warsaw was her main life.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how big her family was?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she have any brothers or sisters who came to this
country?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. One brother, Harry Rutland. He was, he worked for the
Union Pacific for many, many years as a boilermaker.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Rutland his name?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think it used to be Rutkowsky and he changed it to
Rutland, naturally.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he live?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Denver.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is he still living?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some knowledge he is dead?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, no; we know he is dead.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any family?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Four children, two boys and two girls.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Had your family maintained any contact with the
Rutland family?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. About as much as we maintained with Europe. We would
see them occasionally when they would come through or during the war,
the boys would pass through Chicago they would stop off and say hello,
and if I were working west with the Plymouth Rubber Co. and I went to
Denver I stayed there for a week. And then Rita left a trunk at our
house one time in Chicago for a couple of years and it blocked up our
closet and we asked her to remove it. That is the only connection.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Rita is one of his daughters?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Out on the west coast.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So far as you know the only aunts or uncles that you have,
whoever came to this country, were your father’s brother Hyman?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; my father’s brother Abraham.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Abraham, who has a son Hyman.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. A doctor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And your mother’s brother Harry?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear your mother talk about having any
sisters?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Here in this country or in Europe?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Either place.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember. There might have been one--I don’t
think she is a sister. She was very close to my mother. I don’t
remember her name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was she?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. It has been so many years ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your mother--do you remember any contact being
maintained by your mother with her family in Europe?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. None. Not even one letter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did your mother--did your mother ever express any
feelings about that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I imagine she got lonely. She used to sort of daydream
and tell us a few stories about Warsaw, and her family but she never
mentioned any names. I don’t remember her ever mentioning one name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you were growing up, as a child, did your mother speak
English?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did she speak?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Jewish.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yiddish?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yiddish.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about your father?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yiddish mostly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So it--the conversation in the home was Yiddish among the
children?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Always, always with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of religious practices were maintained in the
home?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Not orthodox, not strict, nothing strict, except for
the holidays. We would have for Easter, we would follow the Easter
services. For Yom Kippur my father would go to synagogue and try to
take me along when I was a little boy; and I went to Hebrew school for
a while, and that is all I can remember. I don’t know whether any of
the other boys went to Hebrew school or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But at least you as the oldest child----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I was an oldest child and they tried to set me as an
example for the others, but I couldn’t see it. I couldn’t understand
it. It is like speaking, what is that language that the Catholics use
in their church?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Roman.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Roman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Latin.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It is like the Catholics speak Latin in their churches
and it is like Hebrew speaking to us kids in America, if you don’t know
Hebrew you don’t understand it.

We tried to get some meaning out of it just enough so that we could
stay in school and then there was no use. It just didn’t absorb. There
was no practice. That is the word, practice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your family, did your mother, observe any of the
dietary laws?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes, yes; we had two sets of dishes, and very clean. My
mother was very clean with the children and with her own life and her
own family and her own home. She was very strict about those things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you explain how it is that your mother would observe
the dietary laws and so forth and yet the more religious, the formal
religious aspect of the life was not incorporated in your home?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Very simple. You try to bring up eight kids in Chicago
and keep them in shoes and keep them in school, out of jail, out
of trouble, that was enough, that is the big problem. That is more
important.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There were troubles in your home, weren’t there?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Always.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of troubles?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Family troubles.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you be specific?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Between my father and mother.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What seemed to be the trouble?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Arguments constantly, quarrels, unfortunately.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would they fight over?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Who knows?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your father drink?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about his drinking?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Always. He learned that in the army.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where would he drink, at home or go to a corner saloon or
what?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I would say both.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he drink to excess?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he abusive in any way?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us about that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. My mother objected to it and they would start to fight
and started an argument and sometimes they hit each other.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They did separate at one time did they not?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the cause of the separation?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Just ill-feeling.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were a child, did your mother have any peculiar
ideas, any delusions of any sort, did she seem to have any mental
problems?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; she always felt there was a bone stuck in her
throat and about once a month I had to take her downtown. I being
the oldest, to a clinic for 50 cents, we had clinics, you know those
days, and she insisted there was a bone stuck in her throat from fish,
and everytime we would go there the doctor would tell her, “Mrs.
Rubenstein, there is nothing in your throat, you are imagining things.
Why don’t you forget it.”

Thirty days later, about 30 days, I don’t know, I would go back there
with her again. She insisted and I went, she made me go. This kept on
for a couple of years, and she finally got tired of going and then we
quit going.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was this after you left high school?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did there ever come a time when your mother was
inattentive to the children, sloppy and so forth?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes. There came a time when she felt very despondent,
very disgusted, because she felt she had to keep up the job by herself
taking care of the children, and she was unhappy, and so I think the
family service suggested that she go to Elgin Sanitarium for a while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was in the thirties, though, was it not?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember what year, but I know I went out to
see her one time with my sister Marion, I drove her out there. It could
have been the thirties and it could have been the twenties.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But it was after you got out of high school.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many children were born into the family?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Nine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many of them are now living?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Eight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And one of them died as a young child?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did the one who died come in the picture, in the age
span of the children?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. It was a girl. She was about 5 years old,
I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did she happen to die?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. She got burned. She tipped over a kettle of hot soup on
herself. It was a very tragic incident in our family.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living at home at the time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I was a kid. I was only about 6 or 7 years old, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was--it is clear to you that you were a child and you were
not an adult when this happened?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, definitely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this before your parents separated?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Many years before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did your mother take that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Don’t ask. I thought she was going to go crazy. She
loved her children.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you have considerable affection, affectionate
feelings toward your mother?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Always.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the other children, did they feel that way or
was there some fighting?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The reason I think for that is, she had a tough life.
It wasn’t easy for her putting up with my father all these years,
moving from place to place, trying to raise her children decently and
honestly. It was tough for her, and alone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did your father feel towards the children?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I can’t find the word for it but it wasn’t
like--wasn’t--he loved the children but I believe since he didn’t have
to have an education he felt that grammar school was good enough for
all of us, and that is what we should have done. But my mother felt
differently. She realized that you have got to have an education to
progress, and maybe that is why we all felt more for our mother than we
did for our father as a parent.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your father ultimately came back and lived with you?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. After my mother died.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Not before?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of all of the children in the family, who do you think is
the one who has paid the most attention to this early family life and
would have the most information to contribute on it?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I imagine Eva. Eva is a pretty smart woman. She could,
she was at home most of the time and I think she could, tell more about
the family than any of us. She has a very good memory, too, by the way,
which is important.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How close were you to Jack as he was growing up?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I wasn’t home much. I told you. You have got the
history of my life here. I wasn’t home much. I am about 10 years older
than Jack so when he was 15, I was already 25. I was working and
traveling on the road, and whatever he was doing as long as he didn’t
get into any serious trouble I felt it is OK.

Except one incident and I found this out not so long ago. On the West
Side on Roosevelt Road there used to be a place called the Lawndale,
it is a restaurant. During the Roosevelt administration some character
made a wisecrack about Roosevelt. Jack picked up a chair and was going
to hit him right in the head with that and got stopped by two guys.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see this?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; but I was told this by fellows who have no direct
connection with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were those fellows?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I can give you the name of the owner of the tavern, I
can mail it to you, and the fellow who told it to him was afraid to get
involved because he has got a record and I said, “What are you afraid
of?”

He said, “I don’t want to get involved.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the name of the tavern owner?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I can find it for you. I can give it to you, I can mail
it to you as soon as I get back to Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you make a note of it and mail it to us.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Sure, this came as a complete surprise to me because we
tried to get, we tried to get, some information from the boys how he
reacted away from home, and when a fellow told me this, I almost fell
through the floor. I know this, Jack went out to the northwest side
many times and broke up Bund meetings. That is one thing he wouldn’t go
for.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know this from your own?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. From my own fact, and not that he will tell anybody. It
came also back to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This other people have told you?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Other people told me. They said, “Your brother is
terrific. He just goes in there and breaks up the joint.” He just
couldn’t tolerate those guys. Nobody would dare mention the word “Jew”
in a derogatory form to him because he would be knocked flat in 2
minutes. That is the kind of a guy he was, hasty, quick, and he was
agile, he is built good, he never drank or smoked, and he took care of
himself. And I admire him for it and I love him for it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever put this strength and physical ability to use
in any sort of a job? For example, did he ever act as a bouncer any
place?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He never liked to show off. He is not that kind of a
loud mouth braggadocio, he never went in for that stuff. He hung around
Barney Ross all his life. He liked Barney Ross. Everybody liked Barney
Ross.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you one of Barney Ross’ followers?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Naturally when you live on the west side you have got
to be a follower.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean did you hang around him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; he was Jack’s age. I knew Barney through Jack, you
know, met him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it you were not in a position to know Jack’s
friends when Jack was a child.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. His friends were the fellows who loved life and go out
and have a good time. His business associates were fellows who were
hustlers and like to make money. So you put two and two together. You
find good business associates who are hustlers, and you had to be,
without much education, go out and make money, and in the evening you
go out and you find the friends you like to spend it with. He never
hung around with no hoodlums. We knew hoodlums, sure. If they come into
a restaurant where you are, next to them you are sitting, “Hello, Hy,”
“Hello, Joe.” What do you do, ignore them? You have known them all your
life, you don’t ignore them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Kids from the neighborhood?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Kids from the neighborhood.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any people in mind?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Wherever you lived on the west side there was a hoodlum
or became a hoodlum who you went to school with, or you belonged to
some club with, or maybe--let me give you another example or you played
ball with them. You never knew. You never knew. They surprised you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were Jack’s closest friends before he went to Dallas?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He was very popular, he had a lot of friends.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who were the people he was closest to?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. What age?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s take it after he got out of high school.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Harry Epstein was one, a business promoter. Sam Gordon
on the west coast now, very wealthy man, a business promoter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Ira Kolitz?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He knew Ira from the Lawndale; he knew Ira.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But they weren’t close?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Leave me tell you something now so you people
understand. Ira Kolitz comes from one of the finest families in
Chicago. His father was a banker on the west side. But living on
the west side you are next door--your next-door neighbor might be a
hoodlum, you don’t know. Maybe Ira Kolitz went to school with Jack, it
could have been. Maybe they hung around the same poolroom together. I
was in the Army with Ira. How much Jack hung around with Ira, I don’t
know. I know Ira had a couple of taverns downtown; that I did know.
Whether a tavern owner is a hoodlum that is another category, that I
don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Marty Gimpel?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He died; poor Marty. Marty was a nice guy; worked for
the post office for many years, saved up a nice piece of change, went
down to Dallas, Tex.; they tried to promote homes, build homes, out of
log cabins. They built one, they sold it and that was the end of that
deal as far as I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Marty friendly with Jack during the thirties?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. I imagine; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first become aware that Marty was----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Marty in Chicago?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I knew of him. Probably met him once or twice at the
house.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know when he went to Texas?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No. Leave me tell you about Dallas, Tex. I mean anybody
that Jack knew when Jack came up to Chicago maybe once every 4 or 5
years. “Come down to Dallas, I have got a proposition for you.” “Come
down to Dallas, I have a proposition for you.” Everybody he wanted to
come down that he wanted to have a friend down there, that was the kind
of a guy he was, or else have a place for him to stay, he probably
would have a job for them, or if a proposition come up that this fellow
could handle Jack would fix him up for it. That was the kind of guy
Jack was; you never go hungry with Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a fellow in Chicago named Frank Howard?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; never heard the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack Howard?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The musicman?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that who he is?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know, that is the only Jack Howard that I
remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us how you knew him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I can’t tell you nothing. I don’t know him that well;
no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack know him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Jack being in the music business?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Selling sheet music or anything like that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is the guy that Jack counted sheet music; that is
the guy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did your brother Jack sell sheet music?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a man named Irwin Berke?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never heard of him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or Sam Chazin?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never heard of him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a fellow by the name of Paul Labriolla?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Needlenose; I seen his name in the paper. I never met
him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Hershey Colvin?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Hershey was an Army buddy of Jack in Mississippi, and
Hershey is a gambler by profession, and he now is a bartender on the
north side of Chicago. That is about all I can tell you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what you mean by a gambler by profession.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, years ago when everything was open in Chicago,
like certain communities were. He is a professional gambler. He dealt
cards or he run a crap table, or he was in that particular line. Maybe
he booked horses; I don’t know. But I know Hershey.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Jimmy Weinberg?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never--I heard of him but I don’t know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Alex Gruber?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never heard of him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Mike Nemzin?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, there is a nice guy. Mike is a nice guy, but Mike
is not Jack’s friend; he is Earl’s friend.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Marty Eritt?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Rambler agency in Chicago; very well respected and a
very nice guy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he a friend of Jack or was he Earl’s friend?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Both. I think Jack introduced him to Earl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever loan Jack any money while he was down in
Dallas?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I didn’t. Earl did, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Eva; did you ever lend her any money down in
Dallas?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes. Eva went down there, I don’t know, before the war.
What she was doing down there I can’t tell you, how she ever fell in
love with that city that is her business. She came up to Chicago one
year, and I had a little money hustling around like I told you, buying
and selling things for myself. “I got a good spot,” she says. “1717
Ervay Street.” I said, “What do you need?” She says, “I need about a
thousand dollars.” I said, “What for?”

She wants to buy a piano, so I bought her a piano and cost me $625 for
the piano. She wanted a loudspeaker system for the nightclub, cost me
a couple of hundred bucks for that. Then she bought some dishes, and
some pots and pans for the restaurant in the back. I said, “O.K. I
will ship them all down to you.” We picked out the piano. I got her
the loudspeaker system, and the paraphernalia that goes with it, the
speakers, and we went down to Maxwell Street and we bought pots and
pans and dishes and cups and saucers and shipped it all down to Dallas,
Tex. That was the last I heard of it until I went down there. I was
subpenaed by the Government by a guy by the name of Paul Jones. They
got in a jam. How did she meet Paul Jones? Eva sent him up to Chicago
and he is in Chicago and he calls me. I came downtown and I met him. Do
you want this part of the story now?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; go ahead.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Paul is looking over things down in Dallas that they
can’t buy. We were looking for stuff in Chicago that you can’t buy
either; merchandise, legitimate merchandise. One of the items was pipe.
Of course right after the war, you couldn’t buy anything. There was
nothing to be had. I made a connection with somebody I don’t remember
now--this is 20 years ago--on pipe. So I sent Paul down a small piece
of pipe about 6 inches, and I put a sticker on it and I mailed it down
to Dallas, and I said, I sent him a letter, how else can you send a
piece of pipe, that was the best way. I figured nobody is going to use
a piece like that. I put a label on it and I mailed it down to Paul
Jones.

I mailed it to the tavern; Eva’s place. He got it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you met Jones before you sent the pipe down?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Up here in Chicago. I never heard anything else from
Paul Jones. But shortly after I am subpenaed, come down to Dallas by
the U.S. District Attorney from Chicago, Al Lehman, who died since,
they wanted me to go to Dallas. “What do you know about Paul Jones?” So
I told them. He said, “Go down there and tell the truth,” and I did. I
go down to Dallas, the district attorney down there cross-examined me
for about an hour, and I told him exactly what happened about the pipe
deal, and he didn’t like it because he subpenaed me as his witness,
here I am testifying for Paul Jones on the pipe deal. I had to tell him
the truth. So he got sore at me, and I said, “Look, I don’t want no
part of this court; you sent for me and I am telling you the truth,”
and he got angry at me. That was it.

I hung around, this was not in Dallas, the trial was in Nuevo Laredo,
Tex. It seems that some of Paul’s associates were smuggling dope, by
airplane, from Mexico--across the line--and Paul got grabbed. They
found my ticket, I think one of my cards, in his pocket. So, I am
subpenaed. I am a dope peddler right off the bat. What the hell do I
know about dope peddling? And that was the story of my connection with
Uncle Sam. I don’t know what year it was, either 1944 or 1945. That was
it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it before or after Jack had moved down to Dallas?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Jack was in the service.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was while Jack was in the service?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I am almost positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack didn’t testify in that trial, did he?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall being questioned by Federal narcotics agents
in connection with Jones?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that--were you questioned about that before or after
the trial?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It must have been before the trial because after the
trial they let me go. They didn’t even bother with me after that
because I was no good to them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So the best way to date it when you went down there was
when the Federal narcotics agents questioned you in Chicago?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes. Al Lehman, I think, was the one who questioned me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Jack, was he questioned at the same time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Jack was in the Army.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any recollection of his being questioned?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Jack was never in Dallas before in his life. He didn’t
know nothing about Dallas. He never met Jones. I met Jones through Eva.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t ever remember meeting Jones with Jack?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I told you Jack did not know Jones.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, if the record showed differently, would you
think you might be mistaken?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I am almost positive. Because this was before Jack
went down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember a time when Jack was living at the Sherman
Hotel?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. When was that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. When he came out of the Army.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if during part of the period when he was
living at the Sherman Hotel he also went down to Dallas for a while to
see Eva?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Incidentally, when Jack was in Chicago were there times
when he did not live with the family?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; when he stayed at the Sherman Hotel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Either the Sherman or the Congress, one of the two
hotels I know he stayed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. For how long was he living in a hotel?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know, after he got out of the service.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was it that he was not living with the family?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He had sold out his business to my brother Earl or part
of his interest to my brother Earl, and he had some money, and so he
felt he wanted to live by himself for a while, which is all right. I
mean he was no kid any more, he was a man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there room for him at home?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any contact with Jack during the fall of 1963
prior to the time that the President was assassinated?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about your contact with Jack?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. In the fall of 1963. Let me tell you when the first
time was. He called me on the phone, the records you get from the
telephone company, and he is going to send me up--he wanted me to come
down and become his manager of the Carousel Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was this?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. In the fall, sometime in the fall of 1963 and he also
told me in 1962 he wanted me to come down----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s talk about this being the manager first before we
get into the other thing.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did he need a manager?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He wanted someone in the family to run the place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was he going to do?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He was going--he used to come down later. Jack did not
come down early. A manager has got to be there from 4:30 until closing.
Jack used to come down around, I understand, nine or ten o’clock in
the evening. Probably he belonged to a couple of the clubs there, I
understand he was a member of the YMCA and the Dallas Athletic Club I
think he was a member of--maybe even had a girl friend or two, I don’t
know.

Anyway, he asked me to come down and be the manager. I could not see
working in a place 7 days a week, I couldn’t stand the noise in the
striptease joints, those brassy bands, you know. I know right away that
was out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you having trouble at that time making a living?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I had a good job. I was making good money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this is in 1963, this was after you left the Lewis
Ribbon Co.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; I had a lot of money outstanding on the road from
merchandise I had sold to my customers and that was more important to
me than taking any kind of a job.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This wasn’t going to help you out?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He thought--he didn’t know what my position was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you told him, did you tell him, that you really didn’t
need it? That you were doing all right?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; I told him, I didn’t want no 7-day a week
proposition right off the bat, that was No. 1.

No. 2, I was a little bit too old for that kind of a deal. You get
to be a certain age you don’t want that noise all night long and you
realize it, you don’t have to be there but you can realize it, you can
visualize the job. I didn’t want it.

All of a sudden he sends me up, do you know what a twistboard is? I
should have brought one with me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what it is.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I showed it to the FBI. Somebody in Dallas invented a
twistboard. It is a square board, two boards, one on top of the other
with a ball bearing that separates it in the center.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that one piece of wood rests on the floor and the other
would swivel around on the top of it?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. And you stand on this and you can twist.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Indicating you stand on the board and twist your body
around.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. “$1.69 retail, hottest thing in the world. Go out and
sell it.” I still have it home with the original wrapper and all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is what Jack told you?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He told me and he also made me a sample.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many did he mail you?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Just one. He mailed Earl one, anybody in Chicago he
thought he could contact for promotion he mailed one, because he had
the distributorship.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is the kind of a guy Jack is. He gets a hot item,
boom, he wants to go out and sell it, promote it, that is his life.

You can never take that out of a person.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember some of these other things that he did
like that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about it.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. When Roosevelt died he was the first one with a plaster
of Paris bust, and he sold them all over the country. I don’t know, it
wasn’t much. He probably paid them $1 apiece for them and sold them for
$2.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who manufactured them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; but somebody in Chicago done Jack a favor, they
made him a mold and kept on making these things for him and he either
shipped them or took them and sold them by himself, always something,
anything that is hot, he is right there out with it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any others; can you think of any others?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Punchboard deals. He would pick up items that the
average person couldn’t afford to buy. Let’s say a small radio,
probably would retail for about $18 or $19 he would arrange on a
punchboard card that from 1 to 39 cents the winner would get the radio
and the guy selling the board would get a radio, that the radios would
probably cost him about $5 apiece because they would buy lots of them,
small radios, little ones, cheaply constructed. Well, you walk into a
plant and get hold of a foreman and say, “Would you like one of these
for yourself?” “Sure.” “Well, sell out the punchcard on their lunch
hour, mail me the money, give the winner this radio and I will mail you
a radio.” Perfect. Good gimmick.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As I understand it then, part of the punchboard gimmick
was that he would give some merchandise away with it, is that right?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is right. Incentive. Otherwise, why should the
foreman take the board? The foreman wants one exactly like he is going
to give to the winner, and there was always enough profit left over for
Jack to sufficiently cover his expenses, and make a little profit on
the side, and that was one of his other promotion deals.

What else did he do? During the football seasons when he was a kid,
you know, these little footballs with the school colors. He would go
out to the games, Wisconsin, Ohio, Champaign, Mich., he would leave on
the Friday morning with some fellow who had a car and they would load
up the car with these emblems and these different school things and he
would sell them.

That is another one of the things he did when he was--after he got out
of high school--I forgot to tell you that. That was a good deal for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anything else? While he was in Dallas,
did he call you with anything else beside the twistboard, any other
promotions he had? How about entertainers?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes. He had more trouble--this is a guy in charge of
the union down there was giving Jack a headache.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not asking you for his problems now, did he promote
any entertainers?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He came up to Chicago on one time with a little colored
boy by the name of Sugar Daddy, was about 10 years old.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this have been Little Daddy Nelson?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know; I don’t know the extra name but there was
a little colored boy who was the greatest pianoplayer and singer for a
kid 10 years of age.

Jack took him to Chicago, tried to get him on the TV and tried to get
him on radio, and we went to New York, Jack spent all this money, and
the deal was all set, with even a tutor for the kid, a tutor, all set,
the contract was going to be signed, and everything, and he had to give
the mother and father 25 percent or something like that of the kid’s
earnings and Jack took 25 percent, I think for his work and expenses,
and the kid would get the rest of the 50 percent and all the money for
the tutoring would come out of the kid, expenses and so forth, all set
and signed. This you will never believe. A second mother shows up. You
know that would make a story in itself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about it.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know, that is it. That is all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you learn about the second mother?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. From Eva.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you learn about this?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Way after; Jack was advised by his lawyer in order to
avoid a lot of legal difficulties, and all that stuff, drop it, and
Jack dropped it like a hot potato. You can get yourself into a lot of
trouble, two mothers. Talk about Jack with his promotions. That is the
kind of a guy Jack was, you would love him, nice guy, likable guy. Do
you a favor any time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What other promotions can you think of?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It is really funny. Jack’s promotions. I wish I could
think of all of them. Ever since he was a kid. I can’t think offhand
now. But when I heard about that two-mother deal that was really funny.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear about the two-mother problem before or after
the President was killed?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, this is long before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So this is something that was, you all knew about?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I am just trying to give you the background of Jack’s
life, what kind of a guy Jack was. He would never hurt anybody, I mean
either physically or mentally. He loved life, he loved a story, he
loved to laugh, he loved women, and--but don’t hurt him, don’t hurt
him or you would never hear the end of it. He was very sensitive, very
sensitive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Give us some examples of that.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, I gave you one about the Roosevelt chair, and I
am trying to think of something very important in his life. Yes; he
popped Eva on the nose one time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did that happen?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. Something about chop suey. I wasn’t
there. He popped my own sister on the nose. That is the kind of a guy
he was, something quick, something broke in him and he hit her, hit her
right in the nose, which isn’t like our family.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you say he wouldn’t hurt anybody, what do you mean
by that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I mean he wouldn’t go out of the way and start a fight.
I mean he wouldn’t just pick a fight on the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He did fight with people on the street?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, yes; oh, sure--sure. That is because they were
doing something to, something to hurt him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or at least he felt they did?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is right. He wouldn’t start anything. Let’s put it
that way. He wouldn’t start anything. He would let the other guy start
it. That would be the end.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, when you say he wouldn’t start anything, he
sometimes would strike the first blow, wouldn’t he? He didn’t wait for
the other guy to hit him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is true. But there must have been cause to lead up
to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You feel that these--were there any times when you
observed him in a fight?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So what you are telling us about his fights you heard from
other people, fights that he did get in? How about arguments? Have you
observed him in arguments with people?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; he was a little bit stubborn with his arguments.
When he felt he had a certain idea that was it. He was a hard person to
change or to convince.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think--was Jack a personally ambitious person?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, definitely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were his aspirations and his ambitions? I want you
to tell us from your own personal knowledge. Do you have any personal
knowledge of what his aspirations and ambitions were, did he ever talk
to you about that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; but I feel he always wanted to be successful and
he was capable, and always trying to meet the right type of people,
where he could either be friendly or have knowledge to a promotion.
Let’s put it that way. To him a promotion was the greatest thing in his
life, something to have exclusive that was his, with his experience in
selling items and promoting items, or promoting an individual, where he
would get some profit out of it, that was his ambition.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was he interested in the promotion aside from making
money, was he interested in any notoriety that he might get out of it?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Jack was not the type, I am trying to tell you. Jack
was not the notorious type of a person. Because of all the fights that
he had, he never came home and told us about one. We had to hear it
from his friends.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he do anything, did he promote anything which would
have also involved the promotion of himself?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Explain that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, for example, in the promotion of this Little Daddy,
would it have become known that, generally known that, this was Jack’s
boy? Would Jack have received some recognition for that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Possibly. It is possible naturally being in the
entertainment field and Jack was learning more and more about the
entertainment field and the prospects of promotion in another form,
naturally he would have to be recognized as he is the one who found
Sugar Daddy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of any other thing that he was promoting,
any products that he was promoting?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; some vitamin deal down there. He mailed us a
sample that somebody was making something down there but I couldn’t see
it. He mailed me a sample of that, too, I believe. Somebody was making
a vitamin pill down there that Jack got ahold of and he became the
distributor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He wanted you to sell them. You started out to tell us
about the twistboard.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how Jack contacted you on the twistboard. Tell us what
happened.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He wanted me to call on the department stores on the
road. He says that is where they sell best. I would make about $3 a
dozen which is a good deal, because if they start selling the reorders
would come in automatically, the missionary work is hard, when you are
making $3 a dozen on an item that sells for $1.69 that is a pretty good
profit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you thought Jack’s idea as far as pricing was
concerned, he was talking about selling them for $1.69?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Retail, I think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Retail for somewhere less than $2?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you would have made?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Three dollars a dozen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Three dollars a dozen, which would have been how much on
each item?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. A quarter on each item.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the normal?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; for a salesman, yes; that is about right.
Especially for an item like that, I don’t think it costs very much to
make, to be honest with you. Two pieces of board, and some kind of a
gimmick in the center in between.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What was your response to that one?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I hadn’t had a chance to take it out. It was shortly
before the incident.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he send you anything else in connection with it
besides the board?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Literature. I think I got some literature if I can find
it. I have got the board home, that I can show you, with the original
wrapper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ask you to advertise in any newspapers or anything
for him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I don’t remember that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your intention to try to sell these and promote
them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I didn’t ask him for the board. He just mailed it to me
with all the literature after he spoke to me about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did he speak to you about it?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember, several times, I would say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he going to have a company name or anything that he
was going to use?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was it called?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Spartan; you see his nickname is “Sparky.” He was going
to call it Spartan Manufacturing and Promotional.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he get the nickname “Sparky”?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Fast, aggressive, quick thinker, always on the ball,
you know, I imagine that is where he got the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t really know of your own knowledge?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; but how else would a fellow get a name “Sparky”.
Like a sparkplug, fast, you know, lightning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have occasion to call you in the fall of last
year before November 22 for any reason other than about the twistboard?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; union trouble.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he call you about that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember the exact date.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what he said to you and what you said to him about
the union trouble.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I can’t give you the exact words but I will come
close to it. He wanted me to contact some people in Chicago who had
connections with AGVA in New York, the president. I didn’t know anybody
so I started calling people. I called everybody in Chicago I knew. One
of the fellows I called was Jack Yanover. Jack Yanover owns the Dream
Bar at 1312 South Cicero Avenue, a striptease joint.

Jack and I are old friends for many years, in fact, he is one of the
oldest friends I have. Jack told me two things, Jack Yanover. First,
my brother Jack was looking for girls down there, was only going to
pay them $150 a week for 6 weeks’ work. So Jack Yanover explained to
me, he says, “You cannot get a girl to go down to Dallas for 6 weeks’
work for $150 a week and she will have to pay her own expenses, that
is out. They won’t do it.” And the second problem was with the union.
Jack Yanover told me that the people in Chicago, the agents, the union
agents, had no connection with the agents in Dallas. It would have to
come from New York, and Joey Adams, I think, is one of the big men in
the organization, the entertainer Joey Adams, president. So I tried
to call some people in Chicago who could get to Joey Adams or anybody
else in the New York deal. I didn’t succeed, let’s put it that way. I
remember now. We didn’t succeed. It was just one of those things that
didn’t work out, and if I am not mistaken I think Jack tried to call
some of the other boys in Chicago, one bail bondsman, I can’t think of
his name, and then he tried to call Lenny Patrick, I believe, Lenny
Patrick, and then I think he tried to call somebody else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about a fellow named Barney Baker?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Baker?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Barney Baker, did you ever hear of him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How does Jack know Lenny Patrick?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Everybody knows Lenny Patrick. When you go to school
you know everybody in a school, grade school or even high school, and
if you lived on the west side you know Lenny Patrick because Lenny
Patrick, you walk into a delicatessen or into a poolroom, “Hi, Lenny,”
“Hi, Jack,” that is how you know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What does Lenny Patrick do?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know what he does.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does he make an honest living?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think gambling is his biggest racket. I think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know a fellow in New York by the name of Frank
Carbonaro?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Carbonaro. He is the guy who used to ship my
merchandise for me when I was in business for myself. 811 East 242d
Street, Bronx 70, N.Y.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his connection with the shipping?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He bought my merchandise for me and he shipped it to me
for my customers. You see New York is the ribbon market of the world.
You can’t get the stuff anywhere else than in New York, certain items,
and Frankie took care of those things for me. I paid him a commission
on every order. That is how it worked out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Morris Paper Mill Co., did you have some
dealings with them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; all the time. I buy paper boxes from them, Morris,
Ill., florist boxes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall anything else that Jack called you about
before November 22 of last year?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. If you would give me an inkling I will give you an
answer. I won’t lie to you because I have nothing to hide.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever call you about Eva?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think he was having a little trouble with Eva, I
think. She was sick. Yes. Eva was sick and going for an operation, so I
mailed her a check for $100, make her feel better. I mailed it to the
club. So Jack would give it to Eva so she would have $100 to help her
with the operation. That was it, and he loved me for it. He said that
was wonderful. He said, she hasn’t been up here for many years and she
thought that we had completely ignored her. So he thought by doing that
she felt closer to the family, that we were thinking of her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk to you about Eva?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Always, always.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But I mean----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Whenever he called.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Last fall, did he ever make any special telephone calls
about her?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I can’t think of anything special.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s focus again on the twistboard. Was Jack planning to
manufacture the twistboard?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; somebody down there was making it for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know of any other people he talked to about the
twistboard in connection with promoting it?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He was going to call some other people. I don’t
remember who the names were. I wasn’t too much concerned because
frankly, I do not have enough time to donate to an item that is not
relating to my business because when you walk into a department store,
you can be tied up for 2 solid hours selling something to a buyer if
you find him, and 2 hours a day is a lot of my time when I am on the
road trying to call on my own customers. So, therefore, I wasn’t too
much interested, that is my answer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack mention to you the names of any other people who
were associated with him in the twistboard?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I can’t think of the name. There is somebody down
there, yes, but I don’t know who he is. I wasn’t concerned, I was only
interested in Jack. If Jack wanted to promote it I was going to try to
find him some other fellows to help with selling it. I never got any
chance.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many days a week do you work?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I am on the road 240 days a year when I am working
right, you know, when I get started right, before November 1963.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You work Monday through Friday or Monday through Saturday?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Saturday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you on November 22, the day the President was
shot?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I happened to be in Chicago. I was at the Harry
Eichenbaum’s store, Merrill Manufacturing Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you there, at what time of the day?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. At the moment when the President got assassinated. When
the people heard it on the radio, I didn’t believe it, nobody believed
it. Who could believe a thing like that? And then all of a sudden
everything seemed to quiet down, the whole area, and then it finally
leaked out that it was the truth. My God, you could know it is like an
atomic bomb hit you. It is just one of those things. We all loved this
guy. He was a real guy. He was a friend of our people, too, by the way,
which is important to us in America.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened, what did you do after you learned the
President was shot?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. What was there to be done, nothing. Nobody could work.
Everything seemed to stand still. I finished my business, what I had to
do, I picked up some stuff downtown, I think--yes, I remember, I went
out to the Flavor Candy Co. and picked up a couple of cases of candy
because the girl told me about it the other day, she said, “Remember
you were here on that Friday, November 22.” She knew all about the
family. She knows the family, and I says, “Was I here that day?” She
says, “Yes. That is the last time we saw you.” I didn’t even remember
where I was that day. I mean the thing hits you like a shock. It just
isn’t right, it isn’t normal.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what you did after that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I probably went home. I probably did. I don’t know,
because I was home that Friday night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is living with you at your house?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Marion Carroll, my sister, and Ann Volpert.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Marion and Ann normally work on Fridays? Were they
both employed?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So there would be nobody home during the day.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have another sister, is that right, Eileen?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Eileen is married and lives about 2 miles west from
where we do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does she work?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; she has two little girls she has to take care of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what happened when you got home?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Friday?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who you talked to and so forth?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened? Let’s try to take this, if we can,
chronologically. What happened when you walked in the door?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I can’t remember that particular incident. You mean
what time I got home and what happened? I don’t remember. I don’t even
remember who was home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is the first thing you remember doing when you were
home that evening or afternoon?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The family was--our family couldn’t believe it because
it happened in Dallas. It was a bad rap for the city of Dallas and we
having there members of our family down there, sort of like a black
mark; you know, it sort of gets you. How come of all the places, in
Dallas? You know. Then we got a call. Would you mind me telling you
about?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; I want to know about that.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. At 9 o’clock Friday night we got a call from Jack. He
felt very, very bad about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he talk to you?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, quite a while.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I would say 10 or 15 minutes. He was disgusted with the
whole situation down there. He said, “You know this is a good time for
me to sell out and come back up north.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he talk to you?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. To me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you say?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I didn’t know what to tell him. What can I tell him. I
am a thousand miles away from him. I don’t know what the answer could
be, I hadn’t seen him in quite a while. I don’t know what his position
is down there. I couldn’t see what his selling out would help with
losing our wonderful President. It was too close to the assassination
to even think. What could you tell a person?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did he want to sell out?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He was so disgusted and fed up with the whole God damn
town, that is why.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He was upset with Dallas?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Absolutely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Tell us what he said that indicated that, and
what his earlier problems had been that would have, you know, made him
feel that way?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, he had no problems outside of this union, and
the hiring, getting new girls for the show. That he probably could
have straightened out eventually; and he was going all right. He was
making money, I imagine, because I believe he was paying all his bills.
I think he owed Uncle Sam a little money but he straightened that out
eventually.

But the fact is that he probably didn’t want to have any connection
between a city that murdered his President and him--he just wanted to
separate himself from that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say to you that indicated that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Because he said, “This is a good time for me to sell
out and come back up north.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all you can remember him saying?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is all I can remember him saying. He says, he
started off, “Can you imagine, can you imagine,” like that, and he
sounded like he had tears in his eyes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What else do you recall him saying during that
conversation?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I couldn’t say much, because we still felt that
sickness when the President got shot.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you do most of the talking?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I let him talk, I wanted him to talk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did you want him to talk?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Because he was so close to the situation. He was close
to Dallas. He probably has got some facts that we didn’t get out here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask him what was going on down there?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I didn’t ask him anything because I felt it was
enough. I didn’t want to know anything. That was enough to hear.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were your two sisters home when you called?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; I think that Mary spoke to him first and then I
got on the phone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did you speak to him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. About, I would say 10 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did your sisters speak to him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. We weren’t--we had the television turned
on, I had my television turned on, in the living room trying to get the
news.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are you clear in your mind that this conversation
about thinking about coming back----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; definitely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; that it happened on, at the 9 o’clock telephone call.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. 9 o’clock telephone call, Friday night, the day of the
assassination.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now, did Jack make some other calls to you in the
next day or so?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think he did. I think he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think, do you have any clear recollection?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I think he called everybody. He called Eileen, and
I think he called us, and he called Earl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am just asking you to think about what happened to you.
What did you do after the telephone call?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I hung up. What is there to do?

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do the rest of the evening?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I sat down and watched the rest of the program on
television.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear again from Jack that night?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember. I don’t think we did. It was too late
then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about--did you hear from any of your other friends or
relatives?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Eileen called, I think, after that. She said, “Jack
called me,” my sister Eileen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. And she called the house, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your understanding that Jack called both you and
Eileen?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You think he talked to Eileen before or after?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know, he could have called her before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix the time of his call at 9 o’clock?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Good; I am glad you asked me that. Because when I
was in Dallas during the trial they were supposed to subpena me as a
witness.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Our wonderful lawyer Belli, so Eva and I sat in the
hall through the whole trial waiting to be called as witnesses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. For your brother?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. My brother Jack and also about this telephone call. Bob
Dennison, our investigator, who the lawyer hired, gave me this message.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, Bob Dennison had checked some records and
found that you had--that he had made a call at that time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He wanted me to have it so that I would be able to tell
the judge and the jury exactly what happened that Friday night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. What you have done is handed me an orange sheet
of paper which says, “While you were out” and then there is a message
written down on it, “Call to Hyman in Chicago, call made from WH
1-5601, to SH 3-0984 on November 22, 1963, on 9:02 p.m.”

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Do you want this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I have read it into the record and that is
satisfactory. Thank you.

Aside from that note that Mr. Dennison gave you what recollection do
you have that you placed the call at about 9 o’clock?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I know it was after 8 o’clock because we had dinner
late that evening or something, and I remember getting a call later on
in the evening.

I didn’t know it was exactly 9 o’clock. I didn’t know, until Bob handed
me the note.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything that places the call before 10 o’clock?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Too late. I mean we usually don’t get many calls after
9 o’clock at home, usually.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, but----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Under normal procedures we don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything about this particular call that makes
you think it was before 10 o’clock?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think so. I don’t know why. I can’t give you a real
honest answer, I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a clear recollection that not only you talked
with Jack but that your sisters Marion and Ann talked on that call?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I am almost positive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack call you again the rest of the weekend? Did you
hear from him again?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think he did call.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When do you recall hearing from him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think he called Saturday night. I think he called the
night after. I think so. I am not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything about what was said at that time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I don’t because if I remember what he said I would
remember if he would have called.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you to think back again to this telephone
call and ask yourself if other than this one statement that Jack made
about wanting to close the place and come back to Chicago, if there was
anything else that Jack said on the phone that indicated to you that
he was disgusted and upset with the situation in Dallas, that is with
Dallas as a place to stay.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. All I can say is this: I believe from the tone of his
voice he felt very much heartbroken and very sad and he felt he had
lost a very dear friend and he wanted to get away from that site.

Like, let’s say like, being removed from the scene of the crime. He
just wanted to get away from it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you talk about disgust or revulsion, do you mean
to direct it, could it have simply meant that the recent--that the
events that upset him--or do you think he made some special connection
with the city itself that he was living in so he wanted--you know you
have indicated here he was making some special connection with this
place as a place he wanted to have nothing more to do with it?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; that is the way he felt because he lost a very
dear friend, that is what I am trying to bring out. He just wanted to
get away. He wanted to sell out and he was having----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate what he would do after that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. With a fellow like Jack you don’t have to worry what
he can do. He can do a thousand things and make a living. He is very
capable. And he has got a good mouthpiece. He has proved it before he
went into the nightclub business. He was in the manufacturing business
with Earl, he walked out with a nice piece of change.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you in the habit of keeping your papers and records
that you make over the years. Do you retain these?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. What kind of papers?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Receipts and check stubs and things of that sort.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I try to. I try the best I can in my own small way.
I am my own bookkeeper, my own recorder, my own lawyer, and my own
everything and I try to keep them as best as I can.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far back do you keep them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. You are supposed to keep them for 4 years, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long do you keep them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I try to keep them for 4 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall that when you were interviewed by one of
the FBI agents that you showed him your receipt for the piano that you
sent? How did you happen to keep that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. By accident. Just one of those incidents. Did you see
the color of that sheet, how it looked?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I haven’t seen it.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, brother. You would never believe that a receipt
would last that long. Of course, you could always check it with the
piano company.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do on Saturday, the 23d of November?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember. If I had my daybook here--I have
a daybook I keep my notes in for what I am supposed to do, like you
lawyers do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to work?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember. I could get my daybook and tell you
exactly what I did, nothing to hide.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have it here in Washington?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I can tear out the sheet and mail it to you. Would
you like that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It would be fine. Would you want to make a note of that?
In fact, if you can run off a copy just send us a copy.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t need it. What do I need it for? I have nothing
to hide.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you send us----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The whole book. Do you want the whole book, you can
have it. Mail the book. I have nothing to hide in there. A couple of
telephone numbers, call them and say I said hello.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do on Sunday, do you recall getting up on
Sunday the 24th?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I had breakfast and went out for the newspapers and I
came back and all of a sudden there was--was there anybody in the house
at that particular time--oh, that was a black Sunday. Eileen called,
screaming. Eva called, screaming, and they hung up. All we could get
was “Jack Ruby, Dallas,” you know.

I turned on the television, turned on the television and they showed
the event of everything, you know, the recording of what took place. We
couldn’t believe it. I still don’t believe it. I still don’t believe it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you first learn of what Jack had done from your
sisters?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes. They called.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You, I take it, were not watching television or listening
to the radio?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No. I didn’t think I was. Because I was walking through
the hallway when the phone rang and I forget whether I picked up the
phone or Mary picked up the phone. You see Ann doesn’t answer the phone
because she doesn’t get many calls. Her son is on the west coast, so
we, Mary and I, pick up the phone. It was like an atomic bomb hitting
the top of the house and everything caved in on you, like a disaster.
It is just unbelievable. If a family has incorrigibles where they get
into trouble and you get them out of jail, and the family is used to
it, you know, you feel OK. But we never had anything like that in our
lives, nothing. We are not accustomed to such things. We all work for a
living, some of us work very hard. We are not the notorious type, we
don’t care for no publicity. We all have pretty good personalities. My
customers still laugh at my corny stories I tell them the year before.
I don’t have to impress anybody. We don’t go for none of that big shot
stuff.

So, when this thing hit us, you people can’t imagine, and then the
phone started to ring. It kept ringing from that Sunday morning from
reporters, and newspaper people from all over the country, and it just
didn’t stop. We didn’t know what to say. It was just sickening. We had
no answer for them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to go to Dallas at any time in the
fall of--before the President was assassinated?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go to Dallas afterward?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you go?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Just before Christmas, let’s say December 23, 24, and
25. No; on Christmas day I was on the road so I probably was there for
2 or 3 days around that period.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did you know any of Jack’s friends in Dallas?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; because I wasn’t familiar with Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Ralph Paul?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I met him later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you known him before then?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never even heard of the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about George Senator?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never heard the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have anything to do with raising money for the
defense?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what you had to do with that.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Here is a copy of, almost like this that we placed in
certain newspapers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will simply read this into the record. You have handed
me a sheet of paper on which is printed in capital letters on the first
line, “Appeal for Fair Play.” And on the second line “Save Jack Ruby”
with three exclamation marks after it. Then in lowercase letters with
the initial capitals “Funds for his Defense Needed” on one line. “Send
your Contributions to:” on the next line, and then in all caps under
that “Jack Ruby Defense Fund Committee,” then with initial caps and
lowercase letters “P.O. Box 5226, Chicago 80, Illinois.”

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is an advertisement you say you ran?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. They ran it in several newspapers. One was the New York
Times, I believe. It was rather unsuccessful, rather unsuccessful. But
here is one we sent out 2,000 letters and we lost $200 out of it. We
got $5 back.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a copy of a letter on the stationery headed “Jack
Ruby Appeal Committee”.

Now, do you want this stationery?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. You can have it. Just keep it. Keep this, too, so you
will have it for your records.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me mark the “Appeal for Fair Play”
advertisement as “Washington, D.C., deposition of Hyman Rubenstein,
June 5, 1964, Exhibit No. 1,” and let me ask you if you will sign it.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Down here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. All right.

(Hyman Rubenstein Exhibit No. 1 was marked for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. And the next piece of paper, the letter on Jack Ruby
Appeal Committee stationery I am going to mark “Washington, D.C.,
deposition of Hyman Rubenstein, June 5, 1964, Exhibit No. 2,” and ask
you if you will sign this also.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Sure. I have got “Hy Rubenstein.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right.

(Hyman Rubenstein Exhibit No. 2 was marked for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Now, Exhibit No. 2 is a letter addressed to “Dear Friend” dated April
30, 1964, and signed by Michael Levin, Chairman of the Jack Ruby Appeal
Committee.

Members of the committee listed on the left-hand side are Michael
Levin, Chairman, Marty Eritt, Blanca Fortgang, Elmer Gertz, Ann
Osborne, Barney Ross.

Who is Blanca Fortgang?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know, probably a friend of Mike Levin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Elmer Gertz?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Also the fellow who got the letter up and the ad up, a
friend of Mike Levin.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who is Ann Osborne?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know who she is. I think she is the one who got
the letter out and got the list of names that was submitted to Mike
Levin, the 2,000 names that cost us $200.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now were Fortgang, Gertz, and Osborne friends of your
brother, did they know Jack?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No. I am almost positive that not one of those people
even know Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Mike, Michael Levin.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Mike is our family lawyer. Mike knew Jack ever since he
was a kid.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Marty Eritt?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Marty Eritt I told you they probably went to school
together and probably knew each other on the West Side.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Barney Ross?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Barney Ross he has known all his life.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your connection with the Jack Ruby Appeal
Committee?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It was hard to get members names. A lot of people,
business people, don’t want to put their names on this kind of a
committee. So I used my name, I said, “Mike, go ahead and use my name.”

I had nothing to hide and nothing to be ashamed of. We needed money.

Those trials are expensive, gentlemen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was handling the funds for the defense?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Earl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the money that was raised by the Jack Ruby
Appeal Committee? Did Earl have anything to do with that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Earl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have anything to do with the raising of funds
other than this letter and this advertisement?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Nothing outside of these two.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the first time that you talked with your brother
Jack after the shooting?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think it was down in Dallas. I believe it was down in
Dallas when I was down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That was December sometime?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes, sir, either the 22d or the 23d of December is as
close as I can get to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall seeing him on that occasion?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how long you talked to him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Quite a while. I think I was there with Eva, and who
else was down there, Sammy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what you said to him and what he said?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. What did we talk about: Something about, this is the
gist of it if I can remember right because I walked away thinking about
it to myself that he loved the President and something happened to him,
that he don’t remember exactly what it was, and all that I remembered
is the last time when he was down at the Western Union office when he
wired that dancer of his $25 that she needed for room rent and I says,
“What else, Jack?” And he said, “That is all I can remember.”

Then he mentioned something about the policemen down in Dallas. He said
they lied. He said, “I didn’t say any of those things.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been after the trial that he mentioned
that to you. I am talking about conversations he had before the trial.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, that is right, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that meeting?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, there wasn’t much to say. First of all they have
a little piece of glass that big that you can see him through.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating about 6 by 6.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It is hard to talk to people through a piece of glass
like that. You have got a barrier between you. He looked good. Jack
looked good, but he didn’t act right. He looked disturbed to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What about him, what did you see that----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He wasn’t our Jack 100 percent. There was something
bothering him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t know?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. I am not a psychiatrist. I can’t figure
the man out. We knew it wasn’t right. We thought it was the environment
in the jail, maybe he was mistreated.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you talking about the time you saw him before
the--before Christmas?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say or what indications did you see about his
face or mannerisms?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Something like “What are they keeping me here for, what
have they got me in here for?”

Half sentences. He asked me if I called certain people and here I
haven’t even known any people. He gave me a list of names to call and
I tried to write them down, you know, quick and I didn’t know nobody.
I didn’t want to argue with him. I didn’t want to aggravate his
situation. I didn’t want to disturb him any more than I had to and he
gave me names, called off names, I said I will get in touch with them.

Later on when I went out with Eva, I said, “Who are these people I am
supposed to call?” She says, “Forget about it. He gives me the same
thing, people I am supposed to see and call to help him.” I didn’t
know. And he wanted us to get every lawyer in the State of Texas. “Did
you call this guy? Did you call Percy Foreman and did you call him?” I
didn’t know anybody. We didn’t know who to call. We were strangers in
Texas. We were never in trouble before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ask you to call people other than lawyers?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. His personal friends, his personal friends. I think
some owed him some money, no names were mentioned that Eva didn’t
know. She knew all the names he mentioned. That is why she told me to
forget about it. She probably had already contacted them. Friends in
Dallas, personal people who were either very dear friends of his and
club members. And he was worried more about the dogs than he was about
anybody else.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the occasion that you went down to see him before
Christmas, was that at the time of the bail bond hearing? Do you
remember the hearings?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember what the hearing was but I was down
there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you go down there for a hearing in December?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember. I think it was a bail bond hearing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say he was more concerned about the dogs?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Than anything else?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes, sir; worried about his dogs. I figured that was
odd. Here is a man incarcerated, in prison for a shooting and here he
is worried about his dogs and that didn’t make any sense to me.

You know, there was no logic there. I can understand how a man can be
in love with a dog or dogs but why bring it up at a time like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicated to me that you saw him during the trial or
after the trial?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times did you see him in the course of the trial?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Wait a minute. In the course of the trial, I couldn’t
see him in the courtroom but we saw him in the evening, I think--I
think we were allowed to see him in the evening, I think. I am not
sure. I don’t want to make a statement I am going to be responsible for
because I can’t--I think we saw him in the evening. Yes; I think we saw
him in the evening, after the trial. I think the hours were from 7:30
to 8:30 and the sheriff was very nice. He let all of us go up one time,
the family.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you allowed in his jail cell?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, no; outside, through that little piece of glass
only.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you describe that cell? Is there any other, is it
possible to see out other than through that glass?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. See what out?

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you are inside were there any other windows, could you
look in through the glass and see windows or anything in that cell?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; it is inside. It is inside the center. It is one of
these rooms that are inside, see. It is a separate room. It is not his
room. It is like a visiting room that they bring him in from another
part of the building into this particular room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you didn’t see the cell that he was in?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. His own personal cell?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to see anything of the prisoner other than
through this glass, this 6-inch glass?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Just about up to here is all you can see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are indicating about the middle of your chest.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything you want to tell us about the
conversations you had with him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. In general, how he is feeling, how he is getting along.
How is the food. The sheriff told us that “Any time he doesn’t like
to eat the stuff we give him,” and this was also $20 left downstairs
for him someplace so that Jack could order what he wanted but nobody
was allowed to bring in any food or candy from the outside, only the
sheriff.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But there was money left downstairs for him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Oh, yes; we would do that for a stranger. It is our
brother.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has he been supplied, has money been made available to him
throughout his incarceration?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He received quite a bit of money from people who send
it in to him, you know voluntarily, telegrams, letters, money, money
orders. He got money from all over the country. One country in Europe
invited him to come over as a guest.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see the letter of the invitation?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think we have the letter home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What country was that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think Rhodesia.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has the family, however, provided sort of a weekly
allowance for Jack?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. We could always see that Jack would get whatever he
needs. They don’t allow too much in there in the first place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you indicated he was left, at least while you were
down there during the trial he was left, enough money so that he could
order meals from the outside.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. If he wanted it, naturally.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about before the trial, was he given money for that
purpose?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know. I think he had money because he was
getting donations all the time in letters.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Telegrams by the hundreds.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he feel about those letters and telegrams?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He felt pretty good that he didn’t fight the case
alone. He felt like he had help.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he think the cause was?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Of course, there was always cranks who didn’t agree
with what he did. We don’t agree with what he did, either. You don’t
avenge a wrong with another wrong but I told the television people
this, and I am going to tell it to you. Chances are this was a hundred
million people. If they were down in Dallas at the same time Jack was,
if they had a gun in their hand they probably would have done the
same thing. I don’t say they would have, probably. Just one of those
incidents. May I add something?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Jack left a Western Union office at 11:17, stamped by
his receipt from the money order that he mailed to Fort Worth. The maid
knocked on his door at 8 o’clock that morning to clean up his room.
Jack says, “Come back at 2 o’clock.” Which meant he wanted to sleep.
The girl called him at 10 o’clock from Fort Worth, about there, Jack
got up, took his dog, Sheba, drove down to the Western Union, wired $25
to this, I can’t think of her name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Little Lynn?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Little Lynn.

He saw the commotion about 450 feet down, and he wanted to know what
was going on and he just happened to be there, and it was figured
out 6 more seconds Jack would have missed the whole thing, if he had
hesitated, because they were walking Oswald from the station to the
wagon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to Jack at all about his activities prior to
the shooting and how he got in?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No, no; we didn’t even mention anything like that. We
weren’t concerned with what happened before. We were worried, we were
wondering and worried why, and the only answer I can give you is he
must have blacked out. You just black out and you do things like that.
It is like punching somebody in the nose and then you feel sorry for it
later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Perhaps this would be a good time for you, unless you want
to break for lunch now----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t care. Can I add something to this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like to ask you if we can go on here maybe we can
finish up.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. In an hour?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Less than that. Why don’t you take an opportunity now to
tell us what you would like to tell us that I haven’t covered in the
questioning.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. May I add how a person can possibly shoot a guy like
Oswald, may I give you an example?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Certainly.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. A player is sitting on the football bench, a sub. A man
on the opposite team is running with the ball. The player gets off the
bench and tackles the guy with the ball. What do you call the instinct,
compulsion. That is the same situation with Jack. How do you account
for it. You don’t know. He had no business getting off that bench. He
is not even playing in the game any more than Jack had any business
being in that station. That is my answer why Jack did it. May I add
this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That police department is using Jack as a scapegoat
for their mistakes. Anything--they have nobody else to blame it on,
Jack Ruby. “You were responsible for the whole deal.” They are blaming
everything on him, and that is one of the reasons why these policemen
lied to save their own skins.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which policemen?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. All five that testified. Jack never said those things.
He told me he never said those things about going to shoot him three
times. No man tells you he is going to shoot a person three times. And
then about him saying that the Jews are cowards and he stuck up for the
Jews.

Jack is not that type of a guy because he doesn’t talk about those
things. Sure he is a Jew but you don’t go out telling the world about
it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the things that Jack specifically denied
when he talked to you about those policemen’s testimony?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us which ones they were?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. All of them. He said--Jack did not talk to any of the
policemen at all. He said he didn’t say anything like that at all
to them. He don’t even recall mentioning anything that those five
policemen testified that he talked to them about, anything like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention those specific things or did he just talk
generally about it?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Just generally.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So when you mentioned, for example, you said something
about the Jewish motivation or whatever it was.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; I don’t think Jack would talk like that to a
businessman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack mention that particular topic to you?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No, no, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the shooting the three times, did he mention
that particular incident?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No: but he said he would never discuss those things in
general.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That television man who was downstairs taking movies of
the thing, he made--he was testifying on the stand that at 10:25 and at
10:35 Jack came over and asked him twice when they were going to bring
out Oswald. If he was 11:17 in the Western Union and got up to mail the
money to this Little Lynn what would he be doing down at the station at
10:25. And who would dare walk into a police station with 30 policemen
in front of television and radio reporters and shoot anybody unless you
blacked out. The man must be crazy to do that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This one episode about the police officers’ testimony is
apparently something that sticks in your mind. How many conversations
did you have with Jack about the policemen’s testimony?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Didn’t have hardly any. We don’t talk about those
things, what happened at the trial. We didn’t want to relive the trial.
We didn’t want to relive the shooting even.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first hear about, when did you first hear
Jack deny that he had said the things that the policemen testified to?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It either could have been in December or it could have
been right, at one of the nights of the trial. I don’t remember which.
I don’t know when those statements were made. It could have been after
the trial. Because that is when the FBI took the report, too, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was present?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Eva and Earl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sam?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Sam might have been present at another time but I don’t
think he was present at that particular time. It could have been. I
don’t remember, you know when you have got problems on your head that
are heavy, you don’t pick out, pinpoint different things. Nobody is
that good.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you recall, can you form a visual image in your
own mind of going up there and seeing Jack on the occasion that he
talked about the police officers’ testimony?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; because we saw him often. We saw him many times, we
saw him in the evening during the trial and after the trial we saw him
in the afternoon and evening both. So there was a lot of visits made
between myself and also other members of the family.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about anything else about Jack, that might have caused
Jack to do this. Do you have any other things you want to tell us about
that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I believe I have mentioned the most important things
and gave you gentlemen some good examples. Yes; you didn’t ask me what
led up to this thing, how come?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is what I am asking you now.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Did you know he went out at 3 o’clock in the morning
with George Senator and Larry Crafard, the kid that watched the
nightclub, at nighttime and took tickets for Jack, Jack charged $2 a
ticket to get into his club. It was no bums’ hangout. It was a classy
joint. So Larry used to take the tickets and also sleep there at
nighttime. Jack got up to go at 3 o’clock in the morning one time,
and this was told to me by both, George Senator and Larry, they went
out and they took a picture of a great big billboard, “Impeach Earl
Warren,” the pictures and camera were in the car that Jack was going to
use as evidence when the city policemen confiscated his car, you can
make a note of this, they took the camera, they took the pictures, they
took his adding machine, and they took his spare tire. What a bunch of
characters down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What has become of that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. We would like to know. They took his diamond ring, they
took a very good wristwatch.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you asked for that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. And his blue suit he wore when he shot Oswald, we would
like to have that all back, and his gun.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you asked for it?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I think they have but they haven’t had any success.
If Jack cannot have the gun, then we would like to submit it to the
Smithsonian Institution or in his library.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Kennedy’s Library?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is right. Because Jack bought the gun legitimately
in a Dallas store under his name. And also when he walked into that
newspaper office, and there was a big black border around, a full page
ad signed by somebody by the name of Weissman, Jack didn’t like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you hear about that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Eva told me this. Eva says, “You know, Jack came here
one day showing me all this thing and I couldn’t believe it.”

You know, when a person reads a paper you don’t always pay attention.
It was addressed not to the President of the United States. I
understand the ad was addressed to Mr. Kennedy with grievances, signed
by the committee. With a post office and box number in Dallas, with
a black border around a full-page ad. When Jack was changing the ad
of his closing dates of the club the minute the President got shot in
the newspapers, he got ahold of someone in the newspaper office, as I
understand it, and that man will have to testify, and Jack said to him,
“Do you have to accept an ad like this? Is business that bad? The other
newspapers in town didn’t take it.” Then he went over Saturday morning
to the post office and got ahold of one of the clerks and he says, “Can
you tell me who belongs to this post office box number,” and the clerk
says, “We can’t tell you that.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Hyman, what do you think is the significance of Jack’s
concern with the ad and with the “Impeach Earl Warren” sign?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. And the ad calling Mr. Kennedy instead of “Mr.
President,” with the grievance committee to----

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you think that signifies about Jack’s concern?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. He didn’t like the signature for one which was a Jewish
name. And he thought it was another organization disgracing the Jews.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you get that impression that that was his--how do
you get that impression?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is the way it would hit me. Why would an
organization like this put down the name Weissman and put down all
these grievances in the newspapers with a black border around it and
then--oh, when he couldn’t find--when Jack couldn’t find--the name of
the owner of the post office box so he asked the clerk, “Does this
ad belong to Oswald,” and the clerk says, “I can’t answer you that,
either.” He thought there was a connection between this and Oswald, and
Oswald was using a phoney name in the ad.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Has Jack told you any of that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Eva, because Eva spoke to Jack about it, and Jack told
Eva that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So it is your understanding that Eva learned this from
Jack?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. From Jack directly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And he thought Oswald was using a phoney name in the
advertisement and trying to disgrace the Jews?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. And also disgracing the President. You don’t call a
President Mr. Kennedy. You call him Mr. President with respect to his
title. And also trying to disgrace the name of Earl Warren, Supreme
Court Justice of the United States.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And he thought Oswald might have done the same thing?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right or his organization or somebody connected with
that group whoever it was. He couldn’t understand it, somebody was
doing it. There was the evidence and that bothered him. It kept boiling
in him and boiling in him and finally he blew up and when he saw Oswald
then he really blew up, and that is all I can tell you, gentlemen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know or have you heard of anything that happened in
Dallas between the time the President was shot and the time that Jack
shot Oswald----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have led Jack to think that other people
thought the Jews were behind the assassination of the President?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I did not hear anything like that. You see we
didn’t go down to Dallas--I didn’t go down there to Dallas--until
almost Christmas time. That was almost a whole month so I didn’t know
anything about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to make sure my question is clear because it is
possible that it can be misunderstood. I am not suggesting that the
Jews were--that the Jews were behind the assassination.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Of course not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I am suggesting is that there might have been that
kind of talk in Dallas which might have disturbed Jack and whether you
heard that there was, whether you heard that there was such kind of
talk going on in Dallas that did disturb him.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The only talk that I heard from people in Dallas that
there are a lot of anti-Semites who don’t like Jews. That is the only
talk I heard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where? Had you heard that before you went down to Dallas?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; after I got down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any personal experiences with Jack that would
shed some light on his sensitivity about his position as a person of
Jewish background in the community--personal experiences that you would
have?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Except what I heard from the Bund meetings in Chicago
from his friends. His own friends told me he used to go break them up,
and that takes a little guts to walk into a meeting and break it up, in
my opinion. How many guys would do that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to digress here a bit.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Good, go ahead.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you, when you were traveling in Michigan on your job,
did you have occasion to visit Earl, your brother Earl, at his home?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. At the plant?

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the plant.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Sure; several times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to use his telephone, make
calls from his plant?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I possibly could have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you--have you ever had any dealings with any people in
Massachusetts in the course of your business?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; the Necco Confectionery Co., 254 Massachusetts
Avenue, Cambridge 39, Mass.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were your dealings with them?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. If you give me an order for $100 or $150 for ribbons
or for novelties whatever you use in your florist business, I like
you. I like you. So I go to my car and I says, “Wait a minute, I have
got something for the wife, not for you,” tease you. I go over and I
get a can of imported English candy. “Take this home to the family.”
“Thank you, Hy, come back again, you are a nice guy.” That is how I had
business in Massachusetts.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you doing this now?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Always. I still do it. I got a half case home now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any other candy companies you deal with?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Flavor; same thing. I buy half pound bags of hard
candy, if the order is only $50, I can’t afford to give them a box of
candy, mints.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about the Welch Candy Co.?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Never, don’t even know them. But I think this Necco
bought out the Welch Co., but I am not sure. That Necco is a big outfit
now but I never done any business with Welch.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you ever had any occasion to communicate with any
people in Latin America?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes: I think I sent down one time a sample, somebody
gave them my name, how I got it, I don’t know, some ribbons. He wanted
me to quote them prices on ribbons. So I mailed them some sample
ribbons. I never heard from them no more.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was it?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t remember, this was years ago, 5, 6 years ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about--have you any occasion to communicate with
anybody in Havana?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know anybody in Havana. Jack had friends there.
Jack had a lot of friends there when the gambling was going good and
one of his friends from Dallas was a big shot down there and he invited
Jack down. Jack told me this himself. He invited Jack down to stay with
him for a week and Jack flew down, I think, I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this question directly.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall ever having sent a telegram to Havana, Cuba,
from your brother Earl’s telephone?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. A telegram? No. I would have no reason for it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anybody outside of Earl’s family or
employees who might have used his business phone?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Earl has got 110 employees, God bless him. You know
anybody can pick up a phone in an office with 110 employees and make a
call or call Western Union and charge it to the phone.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am asking you outside of that.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; I never did, no. Havana, Cuba, is as strange to
me as what was that word I gave you before, as Rhodesia. I think Jack
went down there one time and he had a connection for automobiles. This
was when Castro first went down there, I think it was in 1950. At that
time Castro was a friend of the United States. Jack was going to try to
sell them a lot of trucks or cars or something. Anyhow, the deal fell
through, whatever it was, with his friends from Dallas; may I add this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. If you are trying to infer that Jack had any
connections with Castro or communism, that is not our brother. First of
all, Jack couldn’t even spell communism. I mean it in the sense of the
word, the relationship, none.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me say I don’t want to infer anything. I am simply
asking you questions to clarify matters.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. You can clarify it right now. I will bet my life
that Jack wouldn’t have anything to do and never did with anybody.
Jack didn’t go for that kind of stuff. He wasn’t that kind of a man.
These Communists are supposed to be well read, beatniks, students
of universities. Jack doesn’t qualify for that kind of a deal. His
friends are showgirls, tavern owners, gamblers, other nightclub people,
promoters, manufacturers, that was his life, that is all. He opened two
nightclubs. What has he got to do with these other kinds of people?
What has he got to gain by it? He was doing good. He wore good clothes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any political interests?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t think so; not in Dallas, I don’t think in
Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any political interest in Chicago?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I was the only politician but we were all Democrats for
me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack get involved in politics at all in Chicago?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever discuss politics with him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I never even knew the incidents about the chair with
Roosevelt until this manager of the Zebra, the manager of the Zebra
Cafe on 63d Street, I have got to get you his name----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Told me about it. I never heard of it because he
doesn’t talk about those things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anything else that you want to bring to
the attention of the Commission?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Jack was a loyal 1,000 percent American, served in the
Army for 3 years with the best record of our family, of all the boys
who were in the service, and by the way, when my father went down with
Jack and Earl and Sammy to enlist in the service, my father says to the
recruiting officer, “Take me” and he must have been at least 65 years
old.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack didn’t go into the service until some time in 1943?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right. After I came out he went in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And Jack applied for deferment initially, didn’t he?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; because he was the only one home. We were all in.
My mother was alone. Earl was in, Earl was in the Seabees, Sammy was in
the Air Corps and I was in the Field Artillery.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There has been a rumor that Jack feigned a hearing
disability in order to avoid military service?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Not Jack. No; not Jack. No; he was a good soldier and
I told you before he had the best record of all of us on his discharge
papers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think maybe we can conclude here. I am asking you to
identify some interview reports that we have, and I will give you a
chance to read them over. I am going to mark for identification three
different exhibits.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. O.K.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The first one is an interview report prepared by Special
Agent George H. Parfet.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; I know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to start with these chronologically. The first one
is a copy of an interview report prepared by special agents of the FBI,
Maurice J. White and Robert B. Lee, of an interview that they had with
you on November 24, 1963, in Chicago.

I am going to mark this “Washington, D.C., deposition of Hyman
Rubenstein, June 5th, 1964, Exhibit No. 3.” This consists of two pages
numbered at the bottom 193 and 194, respectively.

I will hand you the exhibit and ask you to read it over and then I will
ask you some questions about it.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is about correct. Because I didn’t know anything
else.

(Hyman Rubenstein Exhibit No. 3 was marked for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have had a chance to examine Exhibit No. 3.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any corrections you feel ought to be made in
that report?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The only thing I am doubtful is this, “He then had Jack
as a salesman for several companies believed to be the Stanley Oliver
Company and the Spartan Company now defunct.” That I am sure about.
That is the only paragraph. The rest of it is 100 percent true. And
that is the way it was as I remember it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you not sure that he had jobs with both companies?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. The Spartan Co. there was such a company and Jack and
Harry Epstein was his partner at that time and they sold novelties and
premiums.

By the way, Harry Epstein was a business associate of Jack’s for a good
many years and knows him well. If there is anything that you might want
to find out about his impetuousness or his decisive manner, because
Harry and Jack always fought verbally, so Harry can give you a pretty
good reason or reasons of his personality in that respect.

I don’t know where you can find Harry. He could be in Chicago, he could
be anywhere.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The family has lost track of him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, look; when the partnership breaks up--normally
the partner comes over to the house and you meet him and see him and
you have lunch with him. But when it breaks up you lose all contact
with those people because he wasn’t my contact, he was Jack’s contact.
And Jack being in Dallas all these years we didn’t even see Harry.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Harry, would you say Harry, was one of the people who
knew him best when he lived in Chicago?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. One of the best.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who would you say, who else would you say, knew Jack best
when Jack lived in Chicago?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Benny Kay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his connection with Benny Kay.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Very dear friends.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any business associates?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I don’t know as any business associates but Benny Kay
is a well respected businessman in Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am not asking for important people who knew him.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Let’s say they bummed around together quite a bit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But if we were to go out and look for people who knew Jack
better than anybody else, outside of the family, who were the people
that you would name?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Put his name down, Benny Kay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else would you name?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Harry Epstein.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Hershey Colvin, and this Marty Gimpel that died, Marty
could have given you a better report than anybody. Because Marty lived
with him down in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am talking about Chicago.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Marty knew him from Chicago. Marty worked at the post
office in Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Alex Gruber?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Don’t know him. Never heard his name. Isn’t that odd?
Of all the names that are in Chicago I never heard of him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Sam Gordon?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Sam Gordon was a business associate of Jack, but not as
good as these others. Sam was in the highlight of the depression and
then moved to L.A.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So your idea was Benny Kay, Hershey Colvin and Harry
Epstein outside of Marty Gimpel who is now deceased?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Those would be three as far as I know. You see we all
had our own friends, so I didn’t know too many of Jack’s except when he
would bring them to the house or we would meet somewhere by accident,
downtown, somewhere, you know, run into each other in the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked--incidentally,
if you are satisfied with that----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Except for what I told you here the only incident was
this Stanley Oliver Corp., I don’t know whether Jack sold any stuff,
maybe he did. I don’t know about those things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you then sign on the first page, Exhibit No. 3?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Right here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sign it in some conspicuous place.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. How about down here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine. I will hand you now what I have marked for
identification as “Exhibit No. 4, Washington, D.C., June 5th, 1964,
deposition of Hyman Rubenstein.” This is a copy of the interview
report prepared by Special Agent George Parfet in connection with an
interview he had with you on November 27, 1963, in Chicago.

Take the time to read that, and tell us whether there are any
corrections that you would make in that.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. This is the part I forgot to tell you about, when Jack
called and told me about the newspaper, I forgot, I couldn’t exactly
remember. That is exactly what he said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was that?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. When he called about the newspaper with the ad with the
black border about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He called you?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I believe he did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You said before that he called Eva and that you learned
about this from Eva.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. It could have been. But according to this, according to
this, “The exact time of the shooting of the President of the United
States his brother Jack had been in the office of a newspaper.”

It could have been that Eva told me this. You are right. That is right.
Because he came over and had breakfast with Eva and he had tried to
explain to her about the ad, whether she had noticed it, Eva said,
“What do I notice about an ad?”

He said, “With the black border around it, and the, what was that word
I used before, the twenty, what is that word where you have----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Grievances?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Grievances. The grievances. It was Eva. Should I sign
this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would.

(Hyman Rubenstein Exhibit No. 4 was marked for identification.)

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. You are bringing back a lot of--what a deal.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you remember anything in the course of reading that we
haven’t covered, why let’s have it. Now is the time.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, I don’t know. It is hard, gentlemen, it isn’t
easy. It wasn’t a pleasant experience. It was a sad experience, and
your mind wants to block out those things that you don’t want to
remember. So, it is hard to remember every incident or every detail.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If things come to your mind.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Because the reason we have asked you to come here is so
that we can get----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. I know. Look, we had nothing to hide. Any member of
the family will cooperate 100 percent. Any of our friends and lawyers
will cooperate 100 percent or we want to know why. We don’t believe
in shooting Presidents. Let’s put it that way. We love this country,
and we make our living here, we all served in the army here. We were
brought up in this country, and it is our duty to cooperate with a law
enforcement agency or any agency that wants to investigate a thing of
this type.

It is unfortunate that our brother Jack had to be involved but many of
our friends feel that he is a hero because they felt they would have
done the same thing under similar circumstances.

How can a man premeditate, his dog Sheba was in the car, $2,000 in
cash, all that photographic equipment in the back trunk with the adding
machine and the tire, the dog is waiting for him, and Jack happened
to carry the gun because that was the night’s receipts in the car and
he happened to have it with him and if that girl in Fort Worth hadn’t
called him that morning at 10 o’clock, Jack would still have been
sleeping and forgotten all about it.

So, the man must have blacked out, nothing else could convince me,
and nothing else convinces any of my friends that I talked to. People
who don’t even know him they said that is what must have happened.
He blacked out. I understand that Jack cried like a baby when the
President was shot. He cried more than when his own father died. His
own father was 88 years old when he passed away in the year of 1958, I
believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Rubenstein, who did you hear about the crying from?
Who told you about the crying?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Eva; he made her sick. He came over there crying.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Also from the rabbi in Dallas. He went to synagogue
Saturday night, and he cried, and there is witnesses to prove it in the
synagogue.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there people in the synagogue who saw him?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. People in the synagogue that saw him crying when they
had a special, some services for the President and they saw him crying
and the rabbi saw him crying. They didn’t believe a guy like Jack would
ever cry. I don’t know the rabbi’s name but----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Silverman.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Silverman. He will testify to that and he will bring
witnesses who saw him cry. Jack never cried in his life. He is not that
kind of a guy to cry. Never complained about nothing. Never talked
about any heroic deeds that he ever did. He didn’t go for that stuff.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He wasn’t; you wouldn’t characterize him as somebody who
bragged?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Far from it. He was reticent in that respect. But to
help somebody in an emergency, the first one on the street to raise
money for any occasion. Any policeman or fireman got hurt or the
family needed something he is out there right away selling tickets,
and chances are there wasn’t enough, he paid the difference himself
whatever was needed.

Eva told me that, too. He didn’t tell me that. I heard it from people
down in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me hand you what I have marked as “Washington, D.C.
deposition of Hyman Rubenstein, June 5th, 1964, Exhibit No. 5.” This is
a copy of an interview report prepared by FBI Agent John Golden as a
result of an interview that he had with you in Chicago on December 9,
1963.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that interview?

(Hyman Rubenstein Exhibit No. 5 was marked for identification.)

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; that is the truth like I told you. I don’t
remember the dates. I know how I met John Paul Jones.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Paul Roland Jones.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No, John Paul.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The fellow in the trial at Laredo, is that it?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; how come it is John Paul Jones here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is apparently the name you gave. You understood the
man’s name to be John Paul Jones.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Well, you see I didn’t even know his right name then.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The Jones you met you recall as being named John Paul
Jones?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Yes; that is the name he gave me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any corrections or additions you would make to
that statement?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; this is the truth. Jack did not know Jones--Jack
wasn’t down there at the time when I went down there. Eva was alone
down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you say go down there do you mean----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Dallas. When I had to go down to Laredo I stopped off
in Dallas to see Eva.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the time you are referring to going to Texas is when
you went to the trial or was it another time?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. No; regarding this, Laredo.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; and you say when you went to the trial in Laredo it
is your understanding Jack was not living in Dallas?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Definitely. Do you want me to sign this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would, please. Very good. I say that because I
appreciate your coming here and talking with us and taking this time,
and I will ask you once again if there is anything else----

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. These two things I will get for you.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would we would appreciate that.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. That is all right. It is the least I can do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If there is anything else?

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. Anything also you might want to know drop me a note and
I will be glad to answer it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We appreciate your cooperation.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. We would like to get a new trial for Jack. Some of
my friends say Jack should have gotten the Congressional Medal of
Honor. They feel the same way I do about it. People say to me, why
didn’t he wait for the investigation? How stupid can people be? Then
it is premeditated. You don’t do things like that. Why wait for an
investigation? Sure, it would have been a wonderful thing to have done
but you can’t, you don’t know what is in the other man’s mind. I blame
everything on the stupid Dallas police from every angle, even from that
angle up there. They knew Oswald was in town, why didn’t they grab him.
That is my opinion. They blame everything on Jack, the scapegoat, the
poor guy has got to take it for the whole police department down there.
You know that is the truth and I mean it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, we certainly appreciate your frankness in this
matter and your willingness to express your opinion.

Mr. RUBENSTEIN. You can call me anytime, if you want me to come back
again I will be glad to come back, anytime. If I am out of town I will
have to wait to pick up my letter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I hope we won’t have to trouble you again and thank you
very much for coming.



TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM S. BIGGIO

The testimony of William S. Biggio was taken at 5 p.m., on April 2,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Robert T. Davis,
assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.


Mr. JENNER. Would you stand, please, and take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear in your testimony before this Commission that you
will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?

Mr. BIGGIO. I will.

Mr. JENNER. Would you state your full name, and spell it, please?

Mr. BIGGIO. William S. Biggio, [spelling] B-i-g-g-i-o.

Mr. JENNER. And you are a member of the Dallas City Police Force?

Mr. BIGGIO. That’s right.

Mr. JENNER. Are you in any particular division, do you have a
particular assignment?

Mr. BIGGIO. I am with the special service bureau, criminal intelligence
section.

Mr. JENNER. Now, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., one of the members of the
legal staff of the Warren Commission, with which you are familiar, and
this item has come to my attention recently through Mr. Davis of the
attorney general’s office of the Texas staff and while I appreciate the
fact that at the moment it is third hand or hearsay, as we lawyers call
it, I would just like to have your report on it--which we will seek to
run down--as I understand Mr. Davis and the FBI are undertaking the
investigation; is that right?

Mr. DAVIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BIGGIO. I have since talked to them also.

Mr. DAVIS. Since we talked?

Mr. BIGGIO. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. You appreciate the existence of the President’s Commission
and what the President’s Commission is engaged in, in the investigating
of the assassination of President Kennedy and many members of your
force have been very helpful to us and have been appearing these last
2 weeks by considerable number. Tell us about this whole incident from
the beginning--when it first came to your attention, who brought it to
your attention and what developed thereafter?

Mr. BIGGIO. There was a friend of mine--she is a woman who I know
through my wife. She formerly was employed at the same location that
my wife is, and she called me at work following Ruby’s killing of
Oswald. She said that a friend of hers had been into a restaurant in
the downtown area and a mechanic had come in and had made mention of
the fact that Oswald drove Ruby’s car for approximately a 2-week period
that he knew of, that Oswald had brought the car there for repairs to
his garage.

The friend did not know where the garage was, did not know the
mechanic’s name. The woman who called me didn’t want to give her
friend’s name and get his name involved if she could possibly help it.

Mr. JENNER. Who was it that called you?

Mr. BIGGIO. Is it necessary for me to give that name? I believe with
the information that was given me, it will not be necessary.

Mr. JENNER. Has the information been furnished the FBI?

Mr. BIGGIO. No; it has not. I believe with the information we get to
further on it will show that her name isn’t needed.

Mr. JENNER. All right.

Mr. BIGGIO. I don’t object to giving her name except that she asked me
not to give it.

Mr. JENNER. All right; she didn’t want any publicity, is that it?

Mr. BIGGIO. No; she doesn’t want any publicity on it. I don’t know why
people are so scared of things like this, but if they get into court or
before a panel or anything like that--at any rate, her friend doesn’t
want his name used either, but I talked to my lieutenant about it,
Lieutenant Revill, and he suggested that we go ahead and write it up on
the grounds that by searching through the material in Ruby’s apartment
and also through the material that had been taken from his automobile,
we could possibly find a garage where a mechanic had done some work on
his car. We would be able to contact the mechanic in that way without
involving the two people who had called the information in.

When we did get photostatic copies of the material that had been taken
out of Ruby’s car and his apartment, we found no evidence of any garage
work that had been done or any actual mechanical work that had been
done on his car recently. So, I called my friend back and asked her
again if she could contact the man who had given her the information
and see if he would be willing to talk to us about it. She called him
back and then she called me and she said she had made an error in
saying it was in the downtown area, that the place was out on Lovers
Lane, directly across from--I have the address in here----

Mr. JENNER. Is it 5060 W. Lovers Lane?

Mr. BIGGIO. Well; she didn’t have the address itself--it was directly
across from the Jungle Hut which is in the 5000 block of Lovers Lane.

Mr. JENNER. Lovers Lane is a street name?

Mr. BIGGIO. Yes; Lovers Lane is a street. We sent an officer out there,
Detective Hellinghousen, F. A.

Mr. JENNER. Francis A. Hellinghousen [spelling]
H-e-l-l-i-n-g-h-o-u-s-e-n?

Mr. BIGGIO. That is correct; yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. Of the Dallas City Police?

Mr. BIGGIO. Yes, sir. He went to that particular area--there are two
cafes across the street there in the 5000 block from the particular
location that the lady friend of mine said. One of them was the Cafe
Coffee Shop, was the name of it--the Cafe Coffee Shop. It was closed
up at that time. Now, this took place approximately 3 weeks after the
shooting. It was closed--ordinarily through our bureau we can find
out who the owner was of such a place, because we keep the records
of everyone through the beer licenses which we have to keep in our
particular bureau, but this particular place did not have a beer
license. It did not deal in beer.

It had been closed--we couldn’t find out who the owner was, so I
sent Officer Hellinghousen and requested him to go by and talk to
the woman who had originally given me that information and see if
she would be willing to give him the same thing--the man’s name.
Officer Hellinghousen went by and talked to her and she gave him the
man’s name and at that particular time the man was attending a real
estate convention which was here and being held here in Dallas and
the word was sent to him from the company that he works for, the Bill
Hardy Real Estate Co.--word was sent to the man, his name was Chesher
[spelling] C-h-e-s-h-e-r--Bill was his first name. I believe it is
correct--William R. He lives on Lupton Street.

Mr. JENNER. Is he still alive?

Mr. BIGGIO. No, sir. I tried to contact Hellinghousen today. Mr. Davis
had gone up to talk to Captain Gannaway in regard to that report. I
had understood that Hellinghousen had written a report from what he
had learned from Mr. Chesher and I tried to contact him and could not,
after Captain Gannaway had called me, so I went out to the Bill Hardy
Real Estate Co. where Chesher works, and I talked to the manager of
that company who is Wey, Jr. The location of the real estate company is
6340 E. Mockingbird Lane. Mr. Wey informed us that Bill Chesher died
night before last of a heart attack in the hospital here. We then asked
him if he had talked to Chesher any about hearing this mechanic talking
in the cafe and he said, “No, he had heard some talk of it, though
and he knew one man who had talked to him” and he called in another
employee of the company, Mr. John P. [spelling] S-c-h-n-i-t-z-i-u-s,
who is also an employee of the Bill Hardy Real Estate Co. and he told
us that Chesher told him the same thing, that the mechanic had came
in and sat by him and it was--that it took place at approximately 10
o’clock at night. He was leaving town--he was going out of town. He
stopped there to get coffee and a sandwich and the man came in while he
was there and he had given no description of the mechanic other than
that he was short and was dressed in work clothes and that the clothes
were greasy and that’s the information that he had, and I believe the
man was telling the truth when he said he was a mechanic and that’s as
far as we have been able to go.

Mr. JENNER. What is it that the mechanic is alleged to have said?

Mr. BIGGIO. He said that Oswald had been driving Ruby’s car for
approximately 2 weeks and that he had brought the car into his garage
for repairs, but he did not mention the name of the garage or the type
of repairs, the type of automobile or anything else.

Now, we, of course--just as soon as that came through, there were
checks made on the repairs on Ruby’s automobile. His automobile was
parked regularly, just a short distance up from the Carousel Club at
the old Adolphus Hotel parking garage and also mechanical work had been
done at that location, and the only other place we can find out where
it had been to any type of garage at all was from receipts in his car
and they were apparently for gas and oil and such things as that--no
mechanical work whatsoever, so we didn’t put much stock in the report,
since it was third hand to start off with.

Also, we made an error ourselves--Hellinghousen thought when we brought
that information back about Chesher that I would write up the report
and I thought he was preparing the report, since he was the one who
actually contacted the man and no report was made, but I’m sure the
report went to the FBI, but there is no name in the original report
connecting anybody with it and there was nothing in that that we could
check on except the way we thought was through the mechanical repair
bills and they would possibly be in the car.

Mr. JENNER. You have told me all the incidents from the beginning to
the present time?

Mr. BIGGIO. Yes, sir.

Mr. JENNER. And what you and your fellow officers have done with
respect to running this down?

Mr. BIGGIO. Yes, sir. I might add that the gentlemen out at Bill
Hardy’s Real Estate Co. were very cooperative and they said they would
be willing to talk to any one of you. This lady who called me was very
worried about being called herself or about Mr. Chesher possibly being
called and him not liking it.

Mr. JENNER. Now, the lady who reported it to you, she was not
present--it had been a report to her?

Mr. BIGGIO. She was not present. That’s the reason I say it was
third-hand information. It was written up in the report that way,
although I considered her reliable. The information was third-hand
and there is no way of actually telling. We have to evaluate all the
information that comes through and that generally is the reason we make
followup investigation prior to turning in a report. In this particular
case we were to turn in our information right on through and let the
FBI do it; but as you can see, the FBI would have nothing to go on.

Mr. JENNER. Well, they have got what you reported and we’ll see what
they turn up.

Mr. BIGGIO. Well, after Mr. Davis, I believe you called the FBI this
evening, after you called them, they called me then and I gave them the
exact date of the report and what other information we found out and
they are going to run it on that.

Mr. JENNER. But you have given me now all the information you gave them?

Mr. BIGGIO. Yes, sir; and from my own viewpoint--this is just my
personal viewpoint--I don’t think there’s much to it. I think it’s just
some man in a place talking. I think Mr. Chesher was telling the truth,
but I don’t think the man who said he was a mechanic was. There is no
way we have been able to verify that.

Mr. JENNER. Well, Officer Biggio, we very much appreciate your coming
in and part of our work is running down these rumors.

Mr. BIGGIO. I know--I don’t like to turn in a report like that to start
off with.

Mr. JENNER. I appreciate it very much and thanks for coming.

Mr. BIGGIO. Does that take care of me not giving out the lady’s name
again?

Mr. JENNER. Yes; that’s perfectly all right. We don’t want to probe
into that. You have a right to read your deposition here and sign it if
you want or you can waive that.

Mr. BIGGIO. I know exactly what I’ve said and I’m sure she has taken
down the right thing. I have said nothing except the events that
happened. I’m afraid there is nothing that will be of any help anyway.

Mr. JENNER. Thank you very much.



TESTIMONY OF CAPT. GLEN D. KING

The testimony of Capt. Glen D. King was taken at 11:20 a.m., on May 28,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.


Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Capt. Glen D. King.

Captain King, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission. Under the
provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and
the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure
adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with the Executive
order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn
deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of
the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon
the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as
to you, Mr. King, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine
what facts you know about the death of Oswald and the surrounding
circumstances, and any other pertinent facts you may know about the
general inquiry.

Now, Captain King, I believe that you appear here today by virtue of a
general request made to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of
the staff of the President’s Commission, addressed to your chief, Mr.
Curry, asking that you appear before it. Under the rules adopted by the
Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the
taking of this deposition, but such rules also provide that a witness
may waive this 3-day notice if he so wishes. Now, I will ask you to
state whether or not you are willing to waive the 3-day notice.

Captain KING. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Captain KING. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your name?

Captain KING. Glen D. King.

Mr. HUBERT. And your age?

Captain KING. I am 39.

Mr. HUBERT. Your address?

Captain KING. I live at 519 Goldwood, Dallas 32, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?

Captain KING. Police officer with the city of Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long have you been so employed?

Captain KING. I was first employed on August 2, 1948.

Mr. HUBERT. And have you been with the police department continuously
since then?

Captain KING. No; I have not. I left the department in, I think it was
1950, and was gone approximately 11 months, and returned in 1951; and I
have been with the department continuously since that date.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that a resignation from the department?

Captain KING. It was a resignation from the department and I entered
into private business.

Mr. HUBERT. It was voluntary?

Captain KING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And did you start at the bottom, as it were?

Captain KING. Yes; as a patrolman.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that in the report of the proceedings at which you
made a speech, I think, in Washington, there was a description of you
and your career given and I am going to read it into the record here
and ask you if it is correct.

You were introduced as follows: That you are an administrative
assistant to Chief Curry and that you are a former newspaperman,
that you were a police reporter on the Dallas Morning News when you
joined the police department in 1948; that you have served in every
division of the department until you have risen to the position you
now hold; that you had studied journalism in college at the University
of Texas and SMU; that you have attended a number of police institutes
and lectured at some of them; that you have written in the field of
political science and that you are the author of two books and numerous
magazine articles; is that all correct, sir?

Captain KING. Sir, this is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your specific assignment on November 22 and for
some months or weeks or whatever it was prior to that date, the year
being 1963?

Captain KING. As the administrative assistant to the chief, one of my
primary responsibilities is press relations and public relations also.
On the date of November 22 I was asked to remain in the administrative
offices while other members of the administrative staff were going
to be absent on their assignments, and I was asked to stay in the
administrative offices.

Mr. HUBERT. I would like for you to describe for the record just
under normal circumstances just what the functions and duties and
responsibilities of your position are.

Captain KING. There are, of course, a lot of rather dissimilar or
separated functions of the office.

Mr. HUBERT. I am particularly interested in the ones dealing with press
relations and public relations.

Captain KING. As I say, the office--our office is the unit of the
department that is charged with the efforts of the department for
public relations and it is the office to which the local newsmen know
they can come to receive any assistance that they need in their work.
It is one in which they can register complaints against the department
and procedures of the department and the treatment that they receive,
or it is one to which they can come to secure information on things
they are investigating.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, there is a setup--a central spot--where
every newsman can get the information and information will be gotten
for him?

Captain KING. This is true.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s your office and you are the head of that?

Captain KING. That’s true; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to November 22, were any standard operating
procedures set up for relationships with the press?

Captain KING. Yes; we had a general order in the department which in
very brief and very general terms set forth a policy of the department
so far as their relations with the press was concerned. We had
published prior to that time a memorandum from the chief setting forth
what the policy of the department would be. Briefly stated, it was the
policy that we would render any possible assistance to the press except
that assistance which would seriously interfere with any investigation
that we had underway. This policy made it the responsibility of each
officer of the department to do this.

My office is the press relations office, but my office is not the
only place in the department where a newsman could get information.
It was the responsibility of each member of the department to furnish
to the press information on incidents in which they, themselves, were
involved, except on matters which involved departmental personnel
policies of the department, or, as I said, unless it would obviously
interfere with an investigation underway.

Mr. HUBERT. In the latter case, if it would interfere with an
investigation underway, what was the policy then?

Captain KING. If it would interfere, then it was the policy that the
information would be withheld.

Mr. HUBERT. And the press then would simply not be told or be sent
away, as it were?

Captain KING. It would be withheld from the press; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And you say that that was the general policy, not merely
with respect to your relations with the press, but with every police
officer’s relations with the press?

Captain KING. That’s correct; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it your duty to enforce that policy in the event you
saw it was being disrupted; that is to say, in the event you observed
that press relationship was interfering with an investigation?

Captain KING. It would be--probably; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did you have any general system of registration of the
press--I’m not speaking now of November 22--but of normal conditions
whereby identification cards and so forth would be issued?

Captain KING. Yes, sir; we have.

Mr. HUBERT. What was that?

Captain KING. We have an identification card that we have prepared,
the department prepared, and newsmen who are employees of regular news
gathering agencies in town, upon identification as such or request of
their employer actually, are furnished with the press identification.

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose that would be given mostly to local press people,
would it not?

Captain KING. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, on the occasion of the President’s visit, is it
fair to state that more outside newsmen sought this accreditation or
identification card?

Captain KING. Some did seek it--yes. Very little of it actually was
done. We received a call from--at least these are the only ones
that I can recall, Mr. Hubert, that we gave the identification
to--out-of-State or newsmen who did not normally work here--we received
a call from channel 4, KRLD-TV and they said they had some people in
here from out of the city, of which I recall there were eight of these.
They were identified to us by Eddie Barker who is the news director of
KRLD, and they were furnished press cards. These are the only ones I
recall.

Mr. HUBERT. That was prior to the assassination?

Captain KING. No, this was subsequent to the assassination. These are
the only ones that I can recall that were given for newsmen who came
into town to cover this.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it your thought now that the newsmen who were not
local, who were not known to you and who did not have individual
identification cards should have not been admitted or spoken to unless
they had obtained clearance?

Captain KING. I don’t think it would have been possible from a
practical point of view--I don’t think it could have been done.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us why?

Captain KING. “Why” has to include the atmosphere that existed over
there, the tremendous pressures that existed, the fact that telephones
were ringing constantly, that there were droves of people in there;
it would also have to include the fact that the method by which you
positively identify someone--it doesn’t mean--it’s not easy. If someone
comes into us with a letter from the New York Times on their letterhead
stating that this man is an employee of the New York Times, “Will you
please furnish him with identification?”, we haven’t any way of knowing
that actually this letter did come from the New York Times and that it
was not on a forged or stolen letterhead.

Mr. HUBERT. Normally you would not issue a card to such an individual
without a checkout, as it were?

Captain KING. That’s true.

Mr. HUBERT. And your thought was that checkouts were just simply
impossible?

Captain KING. They were.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any attempt made to set up a system whereby only
positively identified news people would be admitted to the areas near
Oswald?

Captain KING. I’m not sure I understand your question, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. After the death of the President, when you say that this
atmosphere and this condition developed with the press where there were
mobs of people and so forth, was there any effort made by anyone to
clear out the place, as it were, and then readmit only those who were
known to be accredited or definitely identified?

Captain KING. There were officers assigned to the area there--primarily
the third floor where the homicide office is located and where most of
the newsmen were, and they did screen the newsmen and other people who
came in there. I was not the person who assigned them out there and I
don’t actually know what instructions they were given and I don’t know
actually the procedures by which they screened them. I was inside of my
office most of the time with telephones ringing.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it normally have been your duty to screen them or to
see that they had identification?

Captain KING. No, actually it wouldn’t--I think normally it would be
the duty of the officer who was working the incident to check the
identification.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if anyone suggested that something should be
done to correct the conditions which you have described?

Captain KING. I understand that Chief Batchelor on his arrival at the
station ordered some more men assigned up there and tightened up to a
certain extent the security that was up there, but I was not present
when this was done.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if anyone suggested that the whole place
be cleared out completely and then readmit only those definitely
accredited individuals?

Captain KING. I don’t know of anything like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of anyone who suggested that at all?

Captain KING. I don’t recall anyone having suggested that--no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you are telling me that the presence
of the press and under the conditions that they were present would
be considered by you at least as a serious disruption of the normal
methods of interrogation of a prisoner?

Captain KING. I would say that nothing really that was going on there
at that time was normal.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it your opinion that the presence of the press as
they were, particularly on the third floor, when Captain Fritz was
interrogating Oswald did interfere with the investigation?

Captain KING. I think it must have--yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us any examples of how it did?

Captain KING. Well, the hallways were full--actually with men and
officers. I was out on occasion in the hallway and officers tried
to keep an aisle or pathway cleared in the hall so people who had
business in the other bureaus on that end of the floor and people who
were working out of the homicide and robbery bureau could get in and
out, and this was a constant battle because of the number of newsmen
who were there. They would move back into the aisleway that had been
cleared. They interfered with the movement of people who had to be
there.

The door from the elevator, the jail elevator--the ones used for the
transportation of prisoners--is south of the doorway of the homicide
and robbery bureau where the interrogations were conducted, and
whenever Oswald was brought down from the jail or taken back from
homicide and robbery to the jail, he had to pass through this area.
There was noise out there--a considerable amount of noise out there,
and I think this must have been a disquieting thing.

Mr. HUBERT. And you mentioned that your general policy about the
cooperation of the press had an exception, and that is, when it would
interfere with an investigation, and you have, I think, demonstrated
now that in your opinion there was interference with the investigation?

Captain KING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any effort made by anyone to invoke the
exception to the general rule?

Captain KING. I think no effort was made. I think that the decision was
made without ever having been stated, actually, that this was certainly
not a normal circumstance; that the newsmen should be allowed to remain
in there.

The news cameramen first arrived--I don’t recall the time it was--it
was a short time after the death of the President or the shooting, and
Chief Lunday, as I recall, is our traffic division chief. He was the
only chief officer in the department who had returned. We checked--they
wanted to bring their cameras up to the third floor, and we checked
with Chief Lunday to see if it was permissible, and I was told it would
be.

Mr. HUBERT. You did that yourself?

Captain KING. Yes. I am thinking it was Chief Lunday--it was either
Chief Lunday or Chief Lumpkin, and did receive permission for them
to bring their cables through the windows. Of course, the number of
newsmen in the beginning was less than it later became, and more and
more came in.

Mr. HUBERT. At the time you checked the matter with Chief Lunday or
perhaps it was Lumpkin, your thought was that at that time the presence
of the press would not constitute interference?

Captain KING. We didn’t--I didn’t have any idea at that time that we
would have the number that we had.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did it occur to you at any later time that the number
had increased to the point that something ought to be done about it?

Captain KING. The obvious answer is “yes”, but it didn’t actually. The
newsmen out there, I guess you become accustomed to them out there,
or accustomed to the idea of them being out there, once you have
decided that they are going to be permitted to be there, and it was
the obvious policy of the department at that time that they would be
permitted to be there and so far as my ever mentioning to anyone else
or recommending to anyone else or suggesting to anyone else that they
should be removed--I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anyone else suggest that the situation was
getting out of hand, if it was, in fact, sir?

Captain KING. I don’t recall having done so.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, of course, a large part of that was due, I take it,
to the fact that Oswald was being interrogated on the third floor in
Captain Fritz’ office, which is the normal place where a person charged
with murder would be interrogated?

Captain KING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But, do you know if anyone thought of removing Oswald to
another place and thus avoid the press in the room?

Captain KING. That, I do not know, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You had not heard that discussed?

Captain KING. I don’t recall having heard it discussed.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that that might be one way to get
around this situation which you found?

Captain KING. No; actually it did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there other places available so it could actually have
been done?

Captain KING. I am sure that some place could have been found--I don’t
know whether a place could have been found that would have solved more
problems than it raised or not--I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, in what way?

Captain KING. Well, because this is the normal--this is the place where
these homicide officers are assigned. This is the place where their
equipment is, this is the place where they normally work and this is
something that had not even occurred to me--moving him to some other
location and moving the interrogation or the investigation of him to
some other place--this is something again in which I was not involved
in and in which I was not in.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I have read the transcript of the speech that you
made before the American Society of Newspaper Editors in Washington,
which I will introduce into this deposition in a little while.

Captain KING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And I gather from it that to a considerable extent the
police department was influenced to tolerate this condition to a large
extent by the fact that this was an extraordinary case and that any
effort to run the press away might be misconstrued in some manner.

Captain KING. I think that it very definitely might have. I think
probably that these are things that were put into words after the
conditions returned more to normal over there. They were not things
that were actually said. We didn’t sit down, frankly, we didn’t really
have much time to sit down to do anything, but we didn’t just sit down
and say, “We are going to let the press remain here for this reason,
for this reason, or for this reason,” even if they might have been the
reasons that we did in fact.

Mr. HUBERT. There were no staff meetings or anything of that sort to
consider and determine that problem--the problems?

Captain KING. No; there were meetings of the administrators of the
departments, certainly, but these were informal meetings.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, was this problem discussed at any of those meetings,
and by “this problem,” I mean the problem of the press conditions?

Captain KING. To my knowledge--that I remember--no; it probably was--it
would almost have had to have been mentioned over there about the fact
that there were these large number of newsmen there, but any discussion
of their removal or any consideration really, of their removal, I don’t
recall.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that you mentioned in your speech also that the
press were murmuring, I think, or voicing in some ways some possibly
discrediting remarks as to the Dallas Police Department, and that that
factor influenced somewhat the conditions.

Captain KING. It was my understanding that one of the newsmen--I heard
this, but I don’t know who he was--and I, of my own knowledge, don’t
know that this actually occurred, but that one of them had obtained a
picture of Oswald, that he had a picture of Oswald, and he held it up
before the cameras and said, “This is what the man who assassinated
or who shot President Kennedy looks like or at least this is what he
did look like.” He says, “He has been in the custody of the police
department for an hour and I don’t know what he looks like now.”

Mr. HUBERT. That was heard by you and others----

Captain KING. This was not heard by me. I said I was told this--I did
not hear it--I was not a witness to it.

Mr. HUBERT. But you were told that this occurred shortly after, in
fact, it had occurred or was supposed to have occurred?

Captain KING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, you heard it on the 22d of November?

Captain KING. I don’t remember whether it was on the 22d or the 23d--I
don’t remember when I heard it.

Mr. HUBERT. But it was before Oswald was shot?

Captain KING. I believe that’s correct--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that on the night of the 22d when Oswald
was brought to the assembly room at which he was displayed, as it were,
to the press?

Captain KING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you present at that time?

Captain KING. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us how that occasion came about, what brought
about this showing of Oswald to the press in the assembly room?

Captain KING. Actually, I was not a part of the discussions to bring
him down there, nor a part of the decision to bring him down there and
I don’t know. I was told--I was directed to go to the assembly room and
I don’t remember exactly what time it was--it was a short time before
he was brought down there.

Mr. HUBERT. Who directed you?

Captain KING. Chief Curry, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say what the purpose was?

Captain KING. He said that Oswald was going to be brought down to the
assembly room and the newsmen were going to be down there and he wanted
a policeman down there to maintain order.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he consult with you as to whether or not this was the
proper thing to do?

Captain KING. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been normal for him to consult with you in
your position as public relations officer?

Captain KING. Probably not--no.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not offer any objection to this proposal?

Captain KING. I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if anyone else did?

Captain KING. No, sir; I don’t--I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if there had been any release made by anyone in
the police department to the press that Oswald had not confessed?

Captain KING. No, I don’t. I don’t know whether there was or not--that
he had not confessed?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Captain KING. I think it probably was--I think it was mentioned that
there had not been a statement--I think it was mentioned too, that he
denied knowledge of the murder, so I’m sure the statement along this
line was made to the press.

Mr. HUBERT. Perhaps by inference and implication you have already
answered the following question but I want to ask it now--is it your
thought that in this particular case more information was given to the
press and more latitude was given than would normally be given in a
murder case which did not involve the President of the United States?

Captain KING. Probably--probably more, certainly there were more people
there that were more involved in it than there would have been, I
think, under any other circumstances.

Mr. HUBERT. I would think, then, that this would be considered to be a
wholly abnormal situation, that is to say, physical conditions and the
mass of people--the importance of the case and so forth?

Captain KING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the relationship between the police department and
the district attorney’s office in handling the press, was there any
coordination of effort?

Captain KING. Mr. Wade was at the police department most of the time,
or quite a lot of the time. I think Mr. Alexander was there some. There
was discussion made of what would be released to the press whether
there was any discussion with him on the actual physical handling of
the press and permission for them to be there or not, I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Who discussed with Mr. Wade or any other member of the
district attorney’s office, what would be released to the press?

Captain KING. I did on one occasion, or at least I was present on one
occasion when a discussion was had with Mr. Wade, and this was the only
occasion that I can recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us about it, please, sir?

Captain KING. I think it was--I’m not sure which night it was, whether
it was on Saturday night or on Sunday night--I don’t remember whether
it was before or after Oswald was killed--Chief Curry was not there,
but he had said to the press in my presence, and said to me that there
were elements of evidence that he was not going to comment on, and he
told me that the Federal Bureau of Investigation had requested that we
not comment on some of the evidence and that it was not his intention
to do so.

In Chief Curry’s absence there was a meeting in the chief’s office
at which I was present, Captain Fritz was there and Chief Stevenson
was there and I think Chief Lumpkin was there and Chief Batchelor was
there, and there was a discussion with Mr. Wade on the release of
certain information, and I don’t exactly remember what the evidence
was, but there was some evidence that Mr. Wade wanted to release to the
press.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it in relation to the prosecution of Oswald or the
prosecution of Ruby?

Captain KING. I don’t know whether--I don’t recall whether it was in
relation to the prosecution of anyone or not, or whether it was just
evidence--general evidence in the case. I don’t remember what the item
of the evidence was.

Mr. HUBERT. I asked that question in order to assist in fixing the date.

Captain KING. The date--yes; I know, but I do recall that we opposed
the release of the evidence or a statement on the evidence and that Mr.
Wade then sometime thereafter appeared before the newsmen and made some
comment regarding the evidence.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, it was at night, you say?

Captain KING. It was at night--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It could have been either the night of the 23d or the night
of the 24th?

Captain KING. It could have been and I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Could it have been the night of the 22d, too?

Captain KING. I don’t think it was, because I think Chief Curry was at
the police station until late on the night of the 22d. I’m thinking it
was the night of the 24th, which was Sunday night, wasn’t it?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Captain KING. I’m thinking it was that night, because I know he was not
there and I think he was there until the small hours of the morning on
actually both Friday and Saturday, and I think that this was Sunday
night, but I can’t say definitely that it was.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case it was the police department’s opinion that
the evidence should not be released?

Captain KING. It was the opinion of those members who were there that
it should not be released--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that prevailed?

Captain KING. So far as we were concerned in our release of it--so far
as that was concerned--yes, sir; but the district attorney did make
some comment to the press regarding it.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was over your objection?

Captain KING. Well, actually, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me put it this way: You had decided not to do it?

Captain KING. That’s correct--we did not do it.

Mr. HUBERT. And you expressed your view to him that it should not be
done?

Captain KING. We expressed to him the statement of the chief that the
department was not going to do it. I think the chief had indicated to
the FBI we would not, or at least, this was what he told us at any rate.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if any studies have been made or policies
changed since this incident in the police department with reference to
relations with the press?

Captain KING. There has not been any change in our written policy, only
I know the chief has said--I heard him say on more than one occasion
that if we were faced with the same circumstances again, he would
certainly restrict the presence of the newsmen there and we would act
differently from the manner in which we did this time, but so far as
any change having been made in the written policy of the department, I
don’t know anything about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, it is always easier in retrospect to know what
is the best thing to do, but part of a study after all is to see what
is the best thing to do.

Captain KING. Oh, yes; I think you could probably get an excellent
argument with a lot of points on both sides right now on a discussion
of what the proper treatment of the newsmen would be.

Mr. HUBERT. Given this same situation?

Captain KING. Given this same situation--yes; with the benefit of
hindsight and with the benefit of the experience you had--I think you
could raise many points--good points on both sides.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I have handed you previously two statements of
interviews with you by the FBI. I am marking a statement which is dated
January 25, 1964, by putting in the right margin the following: “May
28, 1964, Dallas, Tex., Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Capt. Glen D.
King, Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,” and then my signature, and I ask you if you
have read that report of the interview of you by FBI Agents Clements
and Sayres, and if you consider that to be a correct and proper report
of the interview?

Captain KING. Yes; sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I have also marked for identification an earlier interview
of you by FBI Agent Leo Robertson on December 9 and December 10, 1963,
and for the purpose of identification, I have marked that document as
follows: “May 28, 1964, Dallas, Tex., Exhibit No. 2, deposition of
Capt. Glen D. King,” and I have signed my name, and since it consists
of 2 pages, I have put my initials in the lower right-hand corner. I
think you have read that document, and I ask you if it is a correct and
fair statement of your interview with FBI Agent Robertson?

Captain KING. I think there is nothing in that that is incorrect. I
believe I told Agent Robertson at that time that I had in my memory
seen Jack Ruby one time prior. I had known him since 1955 or 1956, I
believe, and I think my statement to him was that I had first met him
at that time when I was in the vice squad, and I had seen him one time
since then and I had heard the name.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not see him at any time in the Dallas Police
Department building from November 22 until the shooting?

Captain KING. Not until the shooting--no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, there is a third document which is a letter dated
December 2, 1963, addressed to Chief Curry and apparently the original
was signed by you, and I have marked it for identification as follows:
to wit: “Dallas, Tex., May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 3, deposition of Capt.
Glen D. King,” and I have signed my name under that, all of which
appears in the right hand margin of the first page, and since that
document contains 2 pages, I have put my initials at the bottom on the
right hand corner of the first page, and I ask you if that is a correct
statement of the facts as you saw them and as you reported them?

Captain KING. Yes; sir.

Mr. HUBERT. With reference to the letter addressed to Chief Curry,
dated December 2, which I have just marked for identification as
Exhibit No. 3, with reference to the second paragraph, I invite your
attention to this paragraph and ask you if you know why the press had
congregated in the basement?

Captain KING. Yes; sir. On the evening of November 23, I don’t
recall the time, but on the evening of November 23, Chief Curry had
appeared before the newsmen and had told the newsmen--they had asked
him something about--I think--if they might be able to leave and get
something to eat or get some rest and not miss anything that was there,
and Chief Curry had told them that the transfer would not be made prior
to 10 o’clock the next morning--that was Sunday morning.

Mr. HUBERT. But was any announcement made as to what route would be
used to take him out of the building?

Captain KING. Not to my knowledge--no.

Mr. HUBERT. In fact, there were several other routes by which he could
be taken?

Captain KING. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you heard whether anyone told them that the route
would be via the basement?

Captain KING. I don’t know whether anyone--I don’t recall whether
anyone did or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why they all assembled there instead of in some
other spot?

Captain KING. No--in my thinking on it; and I don’t even know why I
thought it was going to be from the basement, but this was the only
thing that had occurred to me. There might have been something that I
heard and don’t recall, but my impression was that it was going to be
from the basement and out, and maybe because this is our normal method
of transfer, our normal way we transfer. We bring them down into the
jail office and out through the jail office and this might be why I was
thinking this about it, but this was the way I thought about it.

Mr. HUBERT. In this second paragraph of Exhibit No. 3 you say you went
to the basement because of the number of newsmen who were assembled
there. Do you mean by that that that was a matter of some concern to
you?

Captain KING. Actually no--not a matter particularly of concern--there
was not anything happening there that I thought was unusual or anything
that I was particularly concerned about. There were more newsmen going
down in there than there were up on the third floor and I went down
there actually to be available more than anything else.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the way that the letter reads--the way that
sentence reads--the fact that newsmen were there was what motivated you
to go there?

Captain KING. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Because otherwise you had no connection with the transfer?

Captain KING. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And you thought it was your duty to be there since you were
the press man?

Captain KING. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And where the press was, you would be?

Captain KING. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice in the fourth paragraph you state that you talked
briefly with Captain Jones, Captain Talbert, and Captain Arnett--do you
recall the nature of the conversation?

Captain KING. I don’t recall what was said only we spoke briefly, and
I don’t remember actually what any of us said. I remembered having
seen them down there. I don’t know whether it was anything more than a
greeting or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that the conditions you have described
concerning the press, that is to say, the number of them, the noise,
the commotion, the cameras and so forth, continued to be as bad after
Oswald was shot, as those conditions had been prior to the shooting?
You see, heretofore, you have described the conditions really on the
22d and the 23d.

Captain KING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And for the morning of the 24th. Then came the shooting
of Oswald, and what would you have to say about the conditions with
relation to the press after that incident as a comparison?

Captain KING. I don’t recall any noticeable change.

Mr. HUBERT. Ruby was not ever on the third floor, as I recall it, was
he?

Captain KING. I don’t know--I don’t remember ever having seen him on
the third floor--I don’t know whether he was there or not.

Mr. HUBERT. I have also shown you previously what appears to be a
galley proof of the purported publication of a speech made by you
before the meeting of the American Society of Newspaper Editors and
I have marked this document for identification as follows: “Dallas,
Texas, May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 4, deposition of Capt. Glen D. King,”
and I have signed my name in the right-hand margin.

The pages that I have shown you are marked with blue ink--this is page
7 and it is on that page that I have marked the identification data
which I have just dictated.

On page 8, marked in blue ink, I have put my name in the bottom
right-hand corner, the same with page 9, and the same with page 10, and
the same with page 11, where your speech ends at the top of page 11,
and also I have marked my name on the bottom of page 17, because there
is a comment by you there on that page, and the same with pages 18, 19,
and 20.

Now, I think you have read this galley proof?

Captain KING. I have--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Addressing ourselves now to pages 7, 8, 9, 10, and 11,
which is the body of your speech, would you say that this is a correct
report of what you said?

Captain KING. I’m sure it is--yes--as I said, I did not read this. I
had a prepared text there that I actually didn’t particularly follow.
I spoke more extemporaneously then, and I can’t remember exactly my
wordage on it, but there is nothing in there I think that I did not
say. There is nothing incorrect there.

Mr. HUBERT. Turning to page 17, it appears that a Mr. Black asked you
to comment on a point, and there is printed on this galley proof on
page 17 what purports to be your comment, and I think that you told me
that you wanted to make some correction as to that comment?

Captain KING. Only in one word only. My answer as listed on this----

Mr. HUBERT. On page 17?

Captain KING. On page 17--it is written here, “I think it probably
would be improper for me to comment on this even before the other
members of the panel,” and I think what I said there, and certainly
what I would have intended to say, is, “I think it probable that it
probably would be improper for me to comment on this even more than the
other members of the panel.”

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your thought was that nobody should comment
on it, and you least of all?

Captain KING. Me least of all--yes.

Mr. HUBERT. On other pages there are comments that appeared by you and
I understand from what you tell me that these--this galley proof fairly
represents what is correct as to what you said, as far as you can
remember?

Captain KING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like the record to show that this galley proof
shows some corrections made apparently by some editorial process, and
at other places there are some apparent typewriter corrections and some
words changed or added by pen and ink and that these various changes
and comments were not made by me or by Captain King but are in the
same condition as were received by me from the American Association of
Newspaper Editors in this way, that by letter dated May 26, 1964. Mr.
Gene Giancarlo, G-i-a-n-c-a-r-l-o [spelling], addressed a letter to Mr.
Barefoot Sanders, U.S. attorney, enclosing this galley proof, and that
Mr. Sanders handed this to me this morning.

Captain KING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All of these comments being relative to Exhibit No. 4.
Captain King, is there anything you would like to add to what has been
said?

Captain KING. I think not.

Mr. HUBERT. Immediately prior to the beginning of this deposition, I
had a short conversation with you in which I showed you the various
documents that were introduced. The rules of the Commission require
that I now ask you if there was any discussion between us concerning
those documents or anything else that is not covered in the deposition?

Captain KING. I recall nothing that was said before that was not
covered after the deposition was begun.

Mr. HUBERT. And there is nothing inconsistent between what we spoke of
before and what was covered in the deposition?

Captain KING. No inconsistencies.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, Captain.

Captain KING. Thank you. This is not of any particular value--this that
I have here--but this is what I had prepared.

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s get this in the record, Captain, that you have
referred to a prepared speech that you went to the American Society of
Newspapers conference with, as to what you have already testified, that
you used this as a basis but actually spoke largely extemporaneously.

Captain KING. That’s correct, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You have also indicated to me that I may introduce this
prepared copy of the text for whatever it is worth?

Captain KING. Yes; sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And I will do that and mark it for identification as
follows, to wit: I am placing in the right-hand margin the words,
“Dallas, Texas, the date May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 5, deposition of
Capt. Glen D. King,” and I am signing my name below that and I am
initialing the second, the third, the fourth, the fifth, the sixth,
the seventh and the eighth pages by placing my initials in the lower
right-hand corner.

I have not read this Exhibit No. 5--do you know if there is anything in
it that was omitted from the speech?

Captain KING. Not from the speech proper. Actually, I think there
are no inconsistencies between this and the speech. There might
have been some things said in the prepared text that I didn’t say
there, and I think there was, or vice versa, but I think there are no
inconsistencies.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, in any case, the contents of Exhibit No. 5, whether
or not spoken by you at the time you made your speech, represents your
views in any case?

Captain KING. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, I think that is all. Thank you very much,
Captain, and we appreciate it.

Captain KING. Thank you--I appreciate this opportunity to speak with
you.



TESTIMONY OF C. RAY HALL

The testimony of C. Ray Hall was taken at 2 p.m., on May 28, 1964, in
the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Byran and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant
counsel of the President’s Commission.


Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. C. Ray Hall.

Mr. Hall, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive
Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, issued by President Johnson, and
the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure
adopted by the President’s Commission in conformity with the Executive
order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn
deposition from you. I state to you now that the general nature of
the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon
the facts relevant to the assassination of President Kennedy and the
subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to
you, Mr. Hall, our inquiry today is to determine what facts you know
about the death of Oswald, the interviews of Ruby, and any other
pertinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry.

Mr. Hall, you appear today, I think, by virtue of a request made by
Mr. J. Lee Rankin, General Counsel of the staff of the President’s
Commission to Mr. Hoover, and I suppose through Mr. Shanklin that you
appear before me to take a deposition.

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, all witnesses
are entitled to 3 days’ written notice prior to the taking of their
deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive that
3-day written notice if he wishes to do so, and I ask you now--do you
desire to waive that 3-day written notice?

Mr. HALL. I will consent to waive the 3-day written notice for
appearance before the Commission’s representative.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you rise, please, so that I may administer the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give here
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?

Mr. HALL. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name?

Mr. HALL. C. Ray Hall.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, Mr. Hall?

Mr. HALL. 45.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?

Mr. HALL. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. HALL. I am a special agent with the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. HALL. Over 21 years.

Mr. HUBERT. And how long have you been stationed in the Dallas office
area?

Mr. HALL. Almost 8 years.

Mr. HUBERT. Did I ask you your house residence?

Mr. HALL. I live at 6542 Ellsworth in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Hall, were you in Dallas on the 24th of November 1963?

Mr. HALL. I was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion on that date to interview or speak to
a man by the name of Jack Ruby?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know him prior to that date?

Mr. HALL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us the circumstances under which you did
talk to him? That is to say, how you were assigned the place, time, and
so forth?

Mr. HALL. I was in the office of the chief of police in Dallas, Tex.,
at approximately 12:35 p.m. on November 24, 1963, when I received a
telephone call from the special agent in charge of the FBI in Dallas,
Tex., Mr. J. Gordon Shanklin, who instructed me to interview Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have to secure the permission of the chief to do
so, just tell us what happened after that?

Mr. HALL. I immediately contacted the chief of police, Jesse Curry, and
advised him that I would like to interview Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. You were in the same building at the time--you were in his
office, the chief of police’s office?

Mr. HALL. I was in his office at the time I received the telephone call.

Mr. HUBERT. And he was in there too?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So, you were able to talk to him immediately?

Mr. HALL. Yes; well, actually, I took the phone call outside of
his office, just outside of his office. I went into his office and
explained to him that I would like to talk to Jack Ruby. Chief Curry
stepped outside his office where a uniformed officer was and instructed
this officer to take me immediately to where Jack Ruby was, and
instructed the officers there on duty that I was to interview Jack Ruby
immediately.

Mr. HUBERT. And where was Jack Ruby, then, when you first saw him?

Mr. HALL. Jack Ruby was in a cell in the city jail at Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he interviewed in that cell or elsewhere?

Mr. HALL. He was in a cell block area, by that I mean, there was an
outer door and then a series of cells, with a hallway in between and
he was the only occupant in that cell block area, the only prisoner
being held in that area. There was a table and some chairs in the space
between the front of the cells.

Mr. HUBERT. In the hallways?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; Ruby came outside to the table and we sat at the
table during the time I interviewed him.

Mr. HUBERT. And your interview must have begun, then, about 5 minutes
later, you suppose?

Mr. HALL. My interview with Jack Ruby commenced at 12:40 p.m. on
November 24, 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know who else was present at the time you first
went in?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?

Mr. HALL. Detective T. D. McMillon [spelling] M-c-M-i-l-l-o-n, of
the auto theft bureau was seated in front of the cell where Ruby was
sitting at the time I walked in. Just a few minutes later another
detective named B. S. Clardy [spelling] C-l-a-r-d-y, from the auto
theft bureau of the Dallas Police Department came in. A uniformed
officer, K. H. Haake [spelling] H-a-a-k-e, Badge No. 1107, was on guard
duty at the outer door of the cell block.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, did those three persons you have mentioned remain
within the sight and hearing of your interviewing of Jack Ruby
throughout the whole time, from the beginning to the end?

Mr. HALL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, maybe we would be better to get the change of
personnel first before we get into the statement. Could you clarify
that--for instance--if McMillon left and someone else took his place
and Clardy left, if you have a notation of that it will be helpful.

Mr. HALL. Officer Haake was some distance away at the outer door.
He was present there but I doubt seriously if he heard the complete
interview.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he inside or outside the outer door?

Mr. HALL. He was outside.

Mr. HUBERT. Outside the outer door?

Mr. HALL. Yes; Detectives McMillon and Clardy were present up until
3:15 p.m. when Jack Ruby was taken to the office of Capt. Will Fritz,
the homicide and robbery bureau of the Dallas Police Department. After
Ruby came back upstairs to the jail from the interview with Captain
Fritz, apparently Detectives McMillon and Clardy had gone off duty
and from that time on I was alone with Ruby in that cell block area
interviewing him.

Mr. HUBERT. There was, then, sort of an interruption of your
interviewing?

Mr. HALL. Yes; there were interruptions.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did this interruption take, so that we might, for
instance, fix the time when the second part of this began, if you are
able to help us on that?

Mr. HALL. There was more than one interruption, yes, sir; and I first
entered the cell where Ruby was confined at 12:40 p.m. on November
24, 1963. Ruby conferred with Attorney Tom Howard from 1:58 p.m. to
2:02 p.m. He was then examined by Dr. Fred A. Bieberdorf (spelling)
B-i-e-b-e-r-d-o-r-f, at 2:06 p.m. and I interviewed Ruby again from
2:24 p.m. until 3:15 p.m. I then returned to interviewing Jack Ruby
from 4:30 until 5:30 p.m.

Mr. HUBERT. And at 5:30 p.m. your interviewing was over with?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And, as I understand it, then McMillon and Clardy were
there from the time you began at 12:40 until the time you first
stopped, that is, at 2:24, roughly?

Mr. HALL. McMillon and Clardy were actually with me from 12:40 until
3:15, because at the time Ruby was taken down to another floor to talk
with his attorney and be examined by the doctor, McMillon, Clardy and I
all went to the floor where he was taken, so we were all together all
during that time from 12:40 p.m. until 3:15 p.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Then, you reinterviewed him for another hour, from 4:30 to
5:30?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, from 3:15 to 4:30 he was being interviewed by Captain
Fritz?

Mr. HALL. He was interviewed by Captain Fritz and then he was arraigned
before Justice of the Peace Pierce McBride on a charge of shooting and
killing Lee Harvey Oswald. Then he was returned to the fifth floor of
the jail where he was searched by the jailers and given a white shirt
and trousers as jail clothing and then returned to his cell. That is
what occurred between 3:15 p.m. and 4:30 p.m.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you present during that period, 3:15 p.m. to 4:30 p.m.?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were with Ruby all the way through?

Mr. HALL. Yes; I was with Ruby from 12:40 p.m. until 5:30 p.m. I
did not participate in the interview by Captain Fritz, nor did I
participate in any search of Ruby’s things, but I was present.

Mr. HUBERT. But you were present?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When you first went there, you found McMillon and Clardy?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And Mr. Sorrels of the Secret Service was not there?

Mr. HALL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Dean was not there, I believe, of the Dallas Police
Department--P. T. Dean--only the two of them?

Mr. HALL. Those two officers were the only ones present, and Officer
Haake was at an outer door. Mr. Sorrels of the Secret Service was in
Captain Fritz’ office during the time that Ruby was being interviewed
down there.

Mr. HUBERT. But he was not present when you interviewed him?

Mr. HALL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you this general question: first of all, did you
or anyone in your presence, threaten Jack Ruby, offer him any promises
of help, take any action or do anything to affect the voluntary nature
of what he said?

Mr. HALL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it your opinion that what Jack Ruby told you was
completely voluntary?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir. At 12:45 p.m. on November 24 I advised Jack Ruby
at the beginning of the interview that he was not required to make any
statement, that he had a right to talk with an attorney before making
any statement and that any statements he made could be used against him
in a court of law.

Mr. HUBERT. And he indicated he understood what that meant?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he ask for any attorney?

Mr. HALL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How did Mr. Howard get into the matter; do you know?

Mr. HALL. I was interviewing Jack Ruby when one of the jailers, a
uniformed officer that I did not know, came in and said that an
attorney was downstairs and wanted to talk with Jack Ruby. I told him
that Jack was available immediately to go talk with his attorney. Jack
was wearing only a pair of shorts. The officers produced his clothing,
gave him a shirt, trousers, his shoes, and then after dressing, he went
downstairs and then talked to Mr. Howard.

Mr. HUBERT. You went with him too?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; I went with him too. Ruby did not know who the
attorney was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he recognize him when he saw him? I mean, did he say
anything or do anything to indicate he did?

Mr. HALL. I don’t know--Ruby walked over to a door where there was a
screen where people can confer with prisoners and I was at the back of
the room and I did not hear any of the conversation. They had a private
talk--Ruby and Mr. Howard had a private talk.

Mr. HUBERT. Through the usual accommodations for attorneys-clients?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. They are separated by a screen?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; and I stayed with the other officers and we were
back. I knew Mr. Howard personally, I knew who he was, but whether Jack
Ruby did or not, I do not know.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was, as I understand it, between 1:58 and 2:02?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Or just about 6 minutes?

Mr. HALL. Four minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Four minutes--and then he was brought back up?

Mr. HALL. The jail doctor, Dr. Fred A. Bieberdorf, was in the jail
area and had apparently been there on other business, and one of the
officers, I don’t recall whether it was McMillon or Clardy, asked the
doctor to look at Jack Ruby while he was there.

Mr. HUBERT. And when was that finished?

Mr. HALL. We returned to the floor above there, the fifth floor, and
they--the police officers removed the clothing that had been given Jack
and he was returned back to where he was wearing his shorts. Then, I
started interviewing him again.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, this has been clarified to some extent already, but I
would like to clarify it a bit further. Prior to doing so, let me mark
the documents--I’m going to refer to for identification. I have marked
the document which purports to be a report of an interview by you,
Mr. Hall, of Jack Ruby taken on November 24, 1963, appearing in the
Clements’ report of November 30, 1963, at pages 160, 161, 162, and 163.

We are identifying that document on the first page as follows: I have
written into the right-hand margin the words, “Dallas, Texas, May 28,
1964, Exhibit No. 1 of the deposition of C. Ray Hall,” and I have
signed it “Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,” and I have marked the next page of
that document, being page 161, with my initials in the lower right-hand
corner and the same with pages 162 and 163.

The other document also purports to be a report of an interview by
you of Jack Ruby, dated, on the face of it. November 25, 1963. I have
marked that document on the first page with the following: “Dallas,
Texas, May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 2 of the deposition of C. Ray Hall,
Leon D. Hubert.” This document with the successive pages also appears
in the Clements’ report of November 30, 1963, pages 13, 14, 15, 16,
17, and 18, and as to each of those pages, I have identified them for
the purpose of this deposition by marking my initials in the lower
right-hand corner.

Now, there has already been clarification, as you know, concerning
the date on this Exhibit No. 2, that this was really an interview of
November 24 rather than November 25.

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, they are both November 24?

Mr. HALL. Yes; that was a typographical error.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; that was a typographical error and that has been
clarified.

What I would like to have clarified now was whether or not these
two documents, and which actually appear in different places in the
Clements’ report, and to which I have given two exhibit numbers, really
are a composite of the same interview, or does one of them refer to the
first half, such as you have described it, and another to the other
half? In other words, your interview was interrupted, you see, and I
don’t know whether this is a composite of all of it or whether one of
them deals with that first half, which went from 12:40 or 12:44 to 3:15
p.m. and the other part from 4:30 to 5:30 p.m., just how it came to
be--that there were two separate documents?

Mr. HALL. These two documents are a composite of the entire interview.
The reason they were divided is for reporting purposes. By that, I
mean, that the first document relates to the events that happened.

Mr. HUBERT. And by that “the first document” would you use by
identification the exhibit numbers I have given them--which one do you
mean by “the first”? The first one in Clements’, of course, is Exhibit
No. 2, as far as physical position is concerned, because it runs from
page 13 to page 18 of the first volume of the Clements’ report of
November 30.

Mr. HALL. Your exhibit number here is wrong.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s Commission Document No. 4, you see?

Mr. HALL. And this is what [indicating]?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, this is Commission Document No. 4 too, but different
volumes.

Mr. HALL. Commission Document No. 4, vol. 1, relates primarily to the
event that happened involving Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. That has been identified by us as Exhibit No. 2 for this
deposition.

Mr. HALL. Yes; Exhibit No. 1, which is Commission Document No. 4, vol.
2, relates to background information. In this report we tried to set up
a section of the report dealing with the background of Ruby.

Another section dealing with the event surrounding the murder of Lee
Harvey Oswald was set up, and it was for that reason that there were
two separate reports of an interview here set out, but it was actually
a composite of the information obtained during this time between 12:40
p.m. and 5:30 p.m. on November 24, 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I notice from your report and principally, for
example, at the bottom of page 15 on Exhibit No. 2 that Ruby refused
to answer certain things and would not say, for instance, how he got
into the basement and why he brought his revolver and so forth. Do you
recall, or is there any way you can tell us whether that denial on
his part came before or after he was interviewed by his attorney, Mr.
Howard?

Mr. HALL. Well----

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that you are referring to some notes; are those
the notes that you took contemporaneously with the interviewing?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you a copy that will be available for introducing into
the record?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. These are your entire notes on the transactions?

Mr. HALL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You say there are two parts?

Mr. HALL. I have three copies of the same thing here for your benefit,
Mr. Hubert. There are 3 pages there.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand; is this your entire notes?

Mr. HALL. This is an interview log in which I set forth the
circumstances of the interview. These are not my notes on the actual
interview. I do not have my notes of that interview. I took my notes
and prepared these reports of the interview and I commenced the night
following the interview and after that was typed up, then I destroyed
the notes that I took at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. So, actually the running notes of the interviews themselves
do not exist?

Mr. HALL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. That is, as I understand it, standard practice and the
interview notes are destroyed after the report is made?

Mr. HALL. After the report of the interview has been prepared. In this
case it was a matter of hours following that, and this represents my
notes in effect because it was prepared from them.

Mr. HUBERT. It was prepared directly from them?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And immediately--the same day?

Mr. HALL. Immediately afterwards; it probably actually was extended
after midnight that night.

Mr. HUBERT. What you have handed me as being your notes is really a log?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir. It’s a log showing the times, the date, who was
present, and specifically the times and what happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I’m going to mark it for the purpose of
identification as follows: “Dallas, Texas, May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 4
of the deposition of C. Hay Hall.” On the first page I am signing my
name below that. There is a second page which I am initialing in the
lower right-hand corner and a third page which I am initialing in the
right hand corner, and Mr. Hall, you have been kind enough to supply
me with two extra copies which I thank you for, but I will just mark
the one for identification, and I think you have already testified
concerning what it is.

Mr. HALL. Back to your previous question as to whether this denial on
the part of Ruby was before or after his conference with an attorney,
Mr. Tom Howard, I believe his conference with Mr. Howard was after that
denial?

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, he had refused to tell you he got in, in
effect?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to having talked with Mr. Howard?

Mr. HALL. Yes; I based that on the time he went there, because his
conference with Mr. Howard was almost 2 o’clock and there was only--a
majority of the interview had been conducted before then.

Mr. HUBERT. Which was--an hour and 15 minutes it had been going on
already?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he speaking freely to you?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, if you will refer again to what I have marked as
Exhibit No. 2, I notice that Ruby at that time mentions a girl by the
name of Karen Bennett of Fort Worth and about sending her a telegram.
There is no mention in this report of having received a telephone call
from her. Am I correct, then, in my assumption that he did not tell you
that at that time?

Mr. HALL. He did not tell me that at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it also that he did not tell you that the girl had
called him at that time--he did not tell you at that time that the
girl had called him on the night before?

Mr. HALL. That’s true. He did not tell me at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Referring again to Exhibit No. 2 and page 15 thereof, in
the very last paragraph, I wonder if you could clarify for us just
what he meant there? You say that this is what Ruby advised you--“He
said that sometime after sending the telegram he entered the basement
building where the police department is located, entering from the Main
Street side. Ruby did not wish to say how he got into the basement or
at what time he entered.”

We were a bit confused about that and wanted to get some clarification,
because we don’t know if he admitted then that he did go down the ramp,
but didn’t want to say anything more about it, or left any question
open as to how he got in there. I mean, there is the possibility that
there was another Main Street entrance that he could get in. As I
understand it, really, he didn’t deny, from what you gather, he went in
through the ramp that goes down to the basement, but that is as far as
he would go?

Mr. HALL. Yes; he would not give any details as to how he got in or
what time--how he went about getting into the ramp to the basement from
the Main Street side, but he did admit entering the basement from the
Main Street side, and that ramp is the only way to get into it.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I would like to show you another document which
purports to be a report of an interview of Jack Ruby by you, Mr. Hall,
and Mr. Clements--Manning C. Clements on December 12, 1963. For the
purpose of identifying that document, as I understood your testimony
about it later, I have marked it on the first page as follows: “Dallas,
Texas, May 28, 1964, Exhibit No. 3, deposition of C. Ray Hall,” and
I have signed my name below that and I have marked each of the other
pages with my initials in the lower right-hand corner. That document is
the report of an interview of December 21, 1963, and runs from page 2
to the top of page 17 of the Clements’ report of January 8, 1964.

Now, I would like you to tell us the circumstances of that interview,
how it was arranged, who was present when it started and when it ended
and so forth.

Mr. HALL. We had arranged for this interview with Mr. Melvin Belli, the
attorney for Jack Ruby, who granted permission for this interview. The
interview was held in an interview room located on floor 6-M of the
Dallas County Jail in Dallas, Tex. Mr. Melvin Belli of San Francisco,
Calif., Mr. Joe Tonahill of Jasper, Tex., Mr. Sam Brody of Los Angeles,
Calif., and Mr. William Choulos, [spelling] C-h-o-u-l-o-s, of San
Francisco, Calif., were present at the time Special Agent Manning C.
Clements and I interviewed Jack Ruby.

Mr. Belli introduced Mr. Brody and Mr. Choulos as members of Mr.
Belli’s staff. This interview with Ruby commenced at 1:50 p.m. on
December 21, 1963, and concluded at 5 o’clock p.m. on December 21, 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. Were the attorneys present all through that period, sir?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; during the entire time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they take part in the interview at all in any active
way?

Mr. HALL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did they make any suggestions or make any objections?

Mr. HALL. I recall that at the beginning of the interview with Jack
Ruby I advised Mr. Ruby that he did not have to make any statements
and that he was represented by his attorneys who were present at the
time of the interview and that any statements he made during this
interview could be used against him in a court of law. At that time
Mr. Tonahill objected to that statement, that the statements could be
used against him in a court of law, and advised me under the Texas
law that Mr. Ruby was under arrest and that oral statements could not
be used against him in the court of law and that he would not waive
such rights, but he would consent to the interview and that Ruby would
answer any questions, and Mr. Belli told Ruby to go ahead and answer
any questions, and assured Mr. Ruby that he was present and would look
after his interests and would be awake during the entire time of the
interview.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you conduct this in sort of a question and answer form,
or did you more or less tell him to tell it in his own story?

Mr. HALL. It was primarily in a question and answer form. However, in
answering a question, sometimes Ruby would continue and answer the
question and continue furnishing other information and as long as he
talked I just made notes and then asked other questions.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Clements was present the whole time too?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he make notes also?

Mr. HALL. We actually divided up this interview. I asked the questions
during the first part, and in this Exhibit No. 3, page 12, at the
beginning of the last paragraph on that page, Mr. Clements asked the
questions and made the notes for the rest of this. That material
preceding that, I asked the questions and made the notes.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened to the notes that you made and that Mr.
Clements made?

Mr. HALL. As soon as I recorded this interview for my part of the
interview on December 23, 1963, I destroyed my notes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is in accordance with the standard procedure?

Mr. HALL. That is in accordance with the standard procedure.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what he did with his?

Mr. HALL. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. If he followed the standard practice, he would have done
the same thing too?

Mr. HALL. It is optional--he may have retained them, but it is not
necessary for him to do so.

Mr. HUBERT. But you were present when he was interviewing and he was
present when you were interviewing?

Mr. HALL. Yes; I was present--both of us were present during the entire
interview from 1:50 p.m. until 5 o’clock p.m., except for about a
minute--I stepped out to get a drink of water at the time Mr. Clements
commenced his interview--just outside--and returned immediately.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice on page 12, which I think would have been as you
described it, part of your interview, you have there what purports to
be a direct quote in the sense that the language is contained in that
middle paragraph in quotation marks?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that mean that you actually wrote those words down, or
is that a paraphrase too?

Mr. HALL. I wrote his exact words down there.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the fact that you put them in quotation
marks in the report means you actually wrote the words down, and that
is why you put quotation marks?

Mr. HALL. That’s right; that’s why I put the quotation marks.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was a paraphrase, in a sense of what he
is telling you?

Mr. HALL. It is in the third person and the others were in the first
person language; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When you put language in quotes that way, actually take it
down, did you or did you here read it back to him?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I guess he had to slow down or something so that you could
get it, or were you using shorthand?

Mr. HALL. I used some shorthand, yes, sir; but primarily I was making
actual notes. In something I thought was extremely pertinent, I took
down his exact words.

Mr. HUBERT. Was this report ever shown to him or to his attorneys later?

Mr. HALL. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. If you would refer to page 10 of Exhibit No. 3, that is to
say, the interview of December 21, in the middle paragraph you will
note that here Ruby does refer to a call from “Little Lynn,” who has
been identified as Karen Bennett, on the morning of November 24, and
following that, there is a statement that he told you on Friday night,
November 22, he had to give her $5 so she could get home--is that what
he told you?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What I’m getting at, that is not a typographical error?

Mr. HALL. No, sir; because--I said, “Friday night,” although that is
what he told me, but if you will notice on page 1 of this exhibit when
he is describing the incident where Little Lynn became sick, he said
it was either on November 20 or November 21, so the exact days--it’s
possible that he was not sure of the exact dates, but this is what he
told me.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s what he told you? That’s what I wanted to get
straight.

Mr. HALL. That’s what he told me because I had Friday, November 22, in
my notes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you appeared at the bond hearing in January and
at that time apparently you were asked a series of questions relating
to what Ruby had said to you about his activities on the morning of
November 24, and you were asked whether he told you that he got up
about 10, at least, ate breakfast, went downstairs and talked to his
next door neighbor about building a dog fence. And then you asked to
refer to your notes and they told you you could, but you said, “I
don’t have in my notes the time he got up.” On the next page they had
repeated that about the next door neighbor and the dog fence that they
were talking about and then you stated, “He told me he talked to a
next door neighbor. I don’t recall him telling me about a fence.” Now,
did he mention who that neighbor was--is that the one that is referred
to----

Mr. HALL. He referred to this next door neighbor as the father-in-law
of Police Officer Buddy Munster.

Mr. HUBERT. And he said that he had talked to him but he didn’t talk to
him about a dog fence?

Mr. HALL. That was my testimony.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. HALL. That was my testimony which is recorded on there.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s right; I just wanted to identify it with that.

Mr. HALL. With your exhibits here.

Mr. HUBERT. Your testimony when you said he did talk to you about a
next door neighbor but you didn’t recall him talking to you about a
fence or a dog fence is actually a part of your report on page 10 of
Exhibit No. 3, the very last paragraph?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And it is a fact that he didn’t say anything about a dog
fence or talking to this man about a dog fence, but merely talking to
him?

Mr. HALL. He just made this statement as he drove out of his driveway
he stopped and talked to his neighbor, name unknown, but who is the
father-in-law of Police Officer Buddy Munster.

Mr. HUBERT. And that’s what you referred to; is that it?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir. If you wish to know who that neighbor was--he is
Mr. J. Doyle Stokes or J. D. Stokes and he lives at 213 South Ewing.
Now, Mr. Ruby did not give me that information.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get a statement from him?

Mr. HALL. Yes; he was interviewed and you will find it in an interview
under the name of Doyle Stokes.

Mr. HUBERT. He lives at 213 South Ewing Street and his real name is
Jefferson D. Stokes; is that correct?

Mr. HALL. I’m not sure--his name is J. D. Stokes, I’m not sure whether
the J. stands for Jefferson, but the D. stands for Doyle.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you testify at the trial on the merits too; that is to
say, the main trial in February and March?

Mr. HALL. Of Ruby?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HALL. No, sir; I was not subpenaed.

Mr. HUBERT. They only called you for this bond hearing?

Mr. HALL. I was subpenaed at several of the hearings, but this bond
hearing is the only court hearing of any type that I actually testified
in.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Mr. Clements called to your knowledge?

Mr. HALL. During the trial?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. HALL. I’m not positive, but I don’t believe he testified during it
or at any of the hearings.

Mr. HUBERT. Did any of the State officials confer with you for the
purpose of using you as witnesses to what Ruby had told you?

Mr. HALL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the reason why?

Mr. HALL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that’s about all, Mr. Hall. Have you anything else
you would like to add?

Mr. HALL. No, sir; I’ll try to answer any questions you may have.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think I have any more. That clarifies it all. Thank
you, sir.

Mr. HALL. Thank you very much.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Hall, prior to the beginning of this deposition, you
and I had not met in fact nor had we conversed in any way at all?

Mr. HALL. That’s correct. As far as I know, I have never seen you
before I entered this room.

Mr. HUBERT. I think we did speak about some of the acquaintances I
knew many years ago in the FBI, but we did not speak about anything
concerning this deposition at all?

Mr. HALL. No, sir; we had no conversation concerning this matter that
you are connected with at anytime except during the time you were
taking this deposition.

Mr. HUBERT. And so that all of our contact as to this whole matter has
been a matter of record?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s all, and I thank you very much.

Mr. HALL. Thank you.



TESTIMONY OF SETH KANTOR

The testimony of Seth Kantor was taken at 9:15 a.m., on June 2, 1964,
at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs Burt W.
Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s
Commission.


Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Kantor, as you know, the Commission has been set
up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson, and a joint
resolution of Congress, which was enacted on November 29 of last
year. The Commission has been directed to inquire into and evaluate
the evidence with respect to the assassination of President Kennedy
and the murder of Lee Harvey Oswald. We have asked you to come here
today because, from the interview that you have provided to the FBI it
appears that you would have some information which would bear upon the
activities of Jack Ruby, and the events that transpired between the
time the President was assassinated and the time that Ruby shot Oswald.
I believe that you received a letter from us.

Mr. KANTOR. I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you state for the record when you received the letter?

Mr. KANTOR. I want to make sure. I am not sure whether it was Thursday
or Friday morning. The letter was dated May 28. I received it on the
29th.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to
receive a 3-day notice by mail, and I believe that has been complied
with.

Mr. KANTOR. There is something in the letter, though, I would like to
bring up. It says, “The Commission is authorized to pay you the same
fees as are paid to witnesses whose depositions are taken in connection
with”--et cetera. I want to waive any fee which would be connected with
this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. You are certainly entitled to it. It is
minimal, I can assure you. Do you have any other questions that you
want to ask before we get started?

Mr. KANTOR. No, none.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Raise your right hand, please.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. KANTOR. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes, my first name is Seth, last name is Kantor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live?

Mr. KANTOR. I live at 4325 Maple Avenue, Bethesda.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, can you give us your birth date, please?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes. January 9, 1926.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you married?

Mr. KANTOR. I am married.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation at present?

Mr. KANTOR. I am a newspaper writer. I am employed by Scripps-Howard
Newspapers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any particular paper, or by the chain itself?

Mr. KANTOR. I am correspondent for Texas papers, and write for all of
our papers as well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been employed with Scripps-Howard?

Mr. KANTOR. A total of 5 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what was your employment before that?

Mr. KANTOR. I was on the Dallas Times Herald, in Dallas, Tex.,
intermittently. I was on the Fort Worth Press, which is a
Scripps-Howard paper. And then went to the Dallas Times Herald. And
then came here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have been in Washington for 5 years, is that right?

Mr. KANTOR. No. I have been in Washington for 2 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. The 5-year period includes some time with the
Dallas Times Herald?

Mr. KANTOR. With the Fort Worth Press, and with the Denver Rocky
Mountain News, which are both Scripps-Howard papers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, when did you work for the Dallas Times Herald?

Mr. KANTOR. I worked for the Times Herald from September 1960 until May
1962.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do before September 1960?

Mr. KANTOR. I was with the Fort Worth Press.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it, then, the 5 years we have covered are the total
time you have been in the newspaper business.

Mr. KANTOR. Oh, no. I have been in the newspaper business about 18
years, but in the employ of Scripps-Howard for 5.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Can you just give us a general idea where you have
worked in those 18 years?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes. With the Associated Press in Detroit, and on the
Lamar, Colo., Daily News, and the Pueblo, Colo., Chieftain, the Denver
Rocky Mountain News. And I spent 5 years as a magazine writer for
magazines published in New York.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you live in Dallas at some time? Is that correct?

Mr. KANTOR. For a 2-year period.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what was that 2-year period? Can you tell us when it
began and when it ended?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes. September 1960 until May 1962.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During those months, did you have occasion to meet Jack
Ruby?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you met him before September 1960?

Mr. KANTOR. No; I had not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first meet Mr. Ruby?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, it was within a very few months after I joined the
Times Herald. I was a feature writer for the paper. I think by nature
of the stories that I wrote, I sort of attracted Jack Ruby. He came up
to my desk one day and introduced himself and said that he owned a club
or clubs in town, and that he thought he might have some stories for me
from time to time, and he did.

Over the next several months, he provided me with maybe as many as
half-a-dozen feature stories, on characters in town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what those stories are?

Mr. KANTOR. One was with an entertainer in his club, a lady who managed
to charm snakes while she was stripping. She was also a housewife in
the suburbs by day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that story published?

Mr. KANTOR. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you just go through these 6 stories, if you
would, and tell us what they were, and if they were or were not
published.

Mr. KANTOR. Well, each was published. I might have some difficulty
remembering them at this point.

I remember a limbo dancer who he brought up from the Caribbean and said
that he was helping in getting his citizenship. I did a story with
the limbo dancer. We got a picture of him at the U.S. Naturalization
Service office in Dallas passing under a low bar.

I did a lot of stories. I am really not sure off the top of my head. I
wish I could have gotten out some old clips and prepared for this, if I
had realized. But they were stories of that nature, anyway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And your best estimate is that there would have been about
half-a-dozen stories that you wrote?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did any of the stories that you wrote have to do with
Jack Ruby himself?

Mr. KANTOR. No. I never wrote about him. I never went into either of
his places.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever provide any publicity for Jack?

Mr. KANTOR. None, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say you never went into any of his clubs. I take it by
that you also did not know him on a social basis.

Mr. KANTOR. Did not know him on a social basis, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you would see him from time to time, about how long
would it be that you would talk with him?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, to begin with, it would vary. There was a
photographer on the paper, for instance, who was doing some outside
work for Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall his name?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes. His name is Pete Fisher.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall the work that he was doing for him?

Mr. KANTOR. I don’t know everything he was doing for him, but I believe
he was making some stock publicity shots of the dancers in the club,
the downtown club. And I well remember on one of the occasions that
Jack was in the office about 7 or 8 o’clock one night to see Pete
Fisher, and I was working late. I talked with Jack probably for more
than an hour or so.

I don’t know how many times I talked to him altogether, or how long
each time period was. But they ranged, I guess, from a few minutes to
about an hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to meet him outside of your
business?

Mr. KANTOR. No; I never did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did Mr. Ruby ever talk to you about himself, or about
his background, or his clubs?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes. This one occasion I mentioned, when he was in the
office late in the day, he had a young man with him who, I believe, he
said was a nephew. At any rate, it was a relative. And he said that
he was trying to help the boy and get him an education, and that he,
himself, had not had too much of an education, and he felt that--he was
sorry he wound up in the girlie show business. He wished that he had a
more substantial occupation.

And, at that time, I recall he told me about growing up in Chicago, and
that things were pretty hard for him, and that he had pulled himself up
by the bootstraps and still would prefer to be out of the business he
was in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Mr. Ruby have any characteristic speech pattern that
you recall? Anything unusual about his speech or noticeable?

Mr. KANTOR. I guess he had a very slight lisp, perhaps--not very
strong, I would say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about his choice of words? Was he a man who was given
to talking in grandiose terms or using profanity?

Mr. KANTOR. If he used profanity, it doesn’t register with me. He was
an effusive person. Obviously when he liked somebody or something,
he liked that person or that thing very much. And if he didn’t, he
portrayed it rather strongly, also. And his facial expressions would
change, depending on what he was talking about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any particular things that he expressed
great like or dislike for?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, I remember one time he told me that he had met a
movie star--and I honestly don’t remember her name, except that she was
sort of on the way down--out at Love Field, somewhere around 2 or 3
o’clock in the morning. He was out there, for whatever reason I don’t
know. And he talked to her for a period of time until her plane was
ready. She was just going through. And he had gotten a promise from her
to appear at his club. He was just ecstatic about this. He thought this
was the greatest thing in the world. He was full of praise for her,
because she stopped and talked with him, without knowing him at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you were in Dallas, were you not, at the time that
President Kennedy was shot?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us where you were at the approximate time
that the shots were fired?

Mr. KANTOR. I was in the motorcade. I was in the White House Press Bus
No. 2. This was about--I don’t know--11 vehicles back, or some such.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you in a position where you could hear the shots
or see any of the actions?

Mr. KANTOR. I heard the last two shots. I didn’t know there were three
shots until some time later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, after the shots were fired, what did you do?

Mr. KANTOR. We tried to get off the bus to see what had happened, but
we were not allowed to, and the bus went at a high rate of speed out to
the Dallas Trade Mart. There we were let out at a side entrance, and
we still had no word of anything. We raced up four flights to a press
office up there, and still could not find out what happened. So we
raced down the four flights again.

One of the reporters--I don’t know who--got on the phone and contacted
the Dallas police, and talked to Chief Stevenson and discovered that
the President had been shot and had been taken to Parkland Hospital.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you here just a minute. Do you recall
the route that you took from the scene of the shooting to the Parkland
Hospital?

Mr. KANTOR. We went on to the Stemmons Expressway immediately, and took
the expressway to a point immediately adjacent to the trade mart. I
don’t know what the little road is that goes off of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would you say that it took you to drive from the
scene of the shooting to the trade mart?

Mr. KANTOR. We were traveling at a speed of about 65–70 miles an hour.
I guess it would be 4 or 5 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And about how long did it take from the time you got out
of that bus and ran up and down your four flights of stairs until the
one press representative was able to make a telephone call?

Mr. KANTOR. I would guess about another 4 or 5 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, after he made the telephone call, what
happened--what did you do?

Mr. KANTOR. I shouted to a couple of the other reporters that I was
familiar enough with Dallas and would get a taxicab. And someone who
was there to attend the function for the President overheard me and
volunteered the service of his station wagon. He gave us his name, but
I didn’t write it down, and don’t remember it.

About eight of us got into the station wagon. And outside of the
reporters who were in the pool car behind the President, we were the
first group of reporters to arrive at the hospital.

This gentleman who drove us there in a station wagon broke an awful lot
of traffic rules, and even went against traffic at a couple of points,
driving on the wrong side of the street. He took us across a field, I
remember, at one point. We made it there very quickly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would this be a matter of 2 or 3 minutes, or 5 minutes?

Mr. KANTOR. I would guess 2 or 3 minutes, because Parkland Hospital,
especially if you take shortcuts like that, is very close.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, did this man park and let you out, or did the vehicle
just let you out and go on?

Mr. KANTOR. We were waved on to the emergency entrance side of Parkland
by a policeman, and the driver let us out of the car, I would guess, 25
yards from the entrance.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I wonder if you would do this. I am going to hand you a
pad of paper here and a pencil, and ask you if in a rough fashion you
can sketch out where you were in relationship to Parkland Hospital, and
draw on there a sufficient enough outline to indicate so that we can
talk from here on about the diagram and where you went from time to
time.

Mr. KANTOR. Well, now, you don’t mean where I was in relationship to
Parkland Hospital at the time of the shooting?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I mean once--we have arrived at the scene now, and
the man has let you out about 25 yards from the entrance. Why don’t
we start with the diagram that shows that area, and would have enough
detail in it to show the other areas you went to at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. KANTOR. All right. Well, roughly, at least as a start----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me. Let me mark this. I will put a notation down
here. I am going to mark this yellow sheet of legal size paper “Seth
Kantor Deposition, June 2, 1964, Exhibit No. 1.”

(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor Deposition, June 2,
1964, Exhibit No. 1, for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, referring to Exhibit No. 1, Mr. Kantor, why don’t you
go ahead and fill in the details and talk as you think is appropriate.

Mr. KANTOR. All right. We were waved in off of Harry Hines Boulevard,
by an officer, which led us on a path on the southern side of the
hospital to a point where the emergency entrance is on the western
side. We were let out of the station wagon about 25 yards, I would
guess, directly opposite the emergency entranceway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you have marked that--shall we call that
point 1 on the diagram. Mark that point 1, where you were let out.

Mr. KANTOR. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do from there?

Mr. KANTOR. I remember that I was one of the reporters who hollered
an assurance to the driver of the car that he could stay with us. He
was worried about what would happen to him and his car. And he wanted,
also, to know what was going on. But I left him cold. I ran as fast
as I could to the front of the emergency entranceway, where I saw the
President’s limousine. There I saw a great deposit of blood on the
ground next to it, on the right-hand side of the car.

Senator Ralph Yarborough, of Texas, was standing very close by,
probably 4 or 5 yards away. And I went up to him and asked him what had
happened, and he was reluctant to tell me what he had seen, although
subsequently he told me he had seen enough to know that the President
was dead, or in a dying condition. But he gave me several comments
which would lead me to believe that a horrible thing had happened. And
I told him that I absolutely had to get in.

He led me to a police officer standing in front of the emergency door
and told the officer that I was with the party, and I produced my White
House credentials. And the officer let me in.

I took up search for a telephone. I saw Merriman Smith of United Press
International using a phone at a desk in a hallway, and went past him,
down a hallway just a very short distance to where I found a phone in a
booth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This was a pay telephone?

Mr. KANTOR. No; to my best recollection it was not. I don’t really
remember for sure--but I don’t believe it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But the phone was on the first floor of Parkland Hospital?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; that is right. And I had difficulty reaching
Washington.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you here. Did you have to go through a
hospital operator?

Mr. KANTOR. I am just trying to remember. I don’t think it was a
pay phone, and I think my trouble was dialing and getting out. I
made several attempts at it, as I recall, and finally got a Dallas
long-distance operator, who put me through to Washington. I think that
is where the problem had been--just getting out. And I telephoned what
I could to the Scripps-Howard office in Washington--that is, the little
bit I had seen, and the comments I had gotten from Senator Yarborough.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time you made this telephone call, what was
your impression as to the condition of the President?

Mr. KANTOR. I had no idea, beyond the fact that I had seen the blood
and that Senator Yarborough had told me that something very terrible
had happened.

While on the phone, I discovered that I was immediately across the hall
from a door which led from the emergency area. I saw Mrs. Johnson being
led out, I believe, on the arm of a Secret Service man on one side and
on the arm of Representative Jack Brooks, of Texas, on the other. And I
saw a priest coming out of this area--out of this doorway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you able to describe what was behind that door, other
than it was an emergency door?

Mr. KANTOR. I attempted actually to go in before I got on the phone,
and the Secret Service man who was stationed there told me I couldn’t
go in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you later find out what was in that area?

Mr. KANTOR. Not exactly. A few days later I got a description of what
the emergency area was like inside. But I don’t know exactly which part
of it I was facing at the time I was on the telephone. I was dictating
a story in to Jim Lucas of Scripps-Howard, and just describing things
as I saw them unfold in the hallway at that point.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did this telephone conversation with Mr.
Lucas last?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, counting the time that it took me to get Washington,
and my story dictated, I would say about 20 to 25 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you make a long-distance telephone call to your home
office, do you use a credit card, or is there some other indication
used by the telephone company for billing purposes?

Mr. KANTOR. No; I just called direct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us the telephone number that you called in
Washington?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I called District 7-7750.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there other Scripps-Howard representatives at
Parkland Hospital at the time you made this call?

Mr. KANTOR. No; I was the only person on the trip for Scripps-Howard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ask for any particular person? Was it a
station-to-station call?

Mr. KANTOR. It was a station-to-station call, and the switchboard
operator gave me a man by the name of Charles Egger, who is managing
editor of Scripps-Howard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. After you had completed that telephone call, what did you
do?

Mr. KANTOR. I walked into the hall where I saw two Texas Congressmen
who were on the trip, Representatives Henry Gonzalez and Albert Thomas,
standing together. They were immobile, and they were standing against
a wall. I asked them for whatever they could tell me. Henry Gonzalez
appeared to be unable to speak. At least he did not speak. And Albert
Thomas told me that a brain surgeon had been brought in for the
President.

That was the first I knew that the President had been hit in the head.
It was at that point, when Malcolm Kilduff, who was in charge of press
arrangements for the White House on the trip, came behind me and just
touched my back as he passed by, and he said, “Come with me, I have an
announcement to make.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go?

Mr. KANTOR. I followed him out of the emergency door and on to the
grass. He was accompanied by Merriman Smith, who was incessantly asking
for whatever news there was without waiting to go where Kilduff was
going, and another man with him was--I am sorry, I have forgotten his
name----

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think it is actually in one of your earlier interviews.
We will get to that later.

Mr. KANTOR. All right. At any rate, I was directly behind Kilduff, who
was moving rapidly. And we went on to the grass and up a little hill
and around the corner of the hospital, moving from west to south.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Back up towards Harry Hines Boulevard?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; that is right. We went in an entranceway. I am not
sure whether it was the main entrance of the hospital or whether there
is a door near the main entrance of the hospital.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; would you mark on the diagram there where the main
entrance is?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes--No. 2?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Just write “Main Entrance.” We will use the numbers for
your position.

Mr. KANTOR. All right. I followed Mr. Kilduff up a flight of stairs to
the second floor, and down one or two hallways, until we came to the
room where he made the announcement that the President had died.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did the announcement take?

Mr. KANTOR. The announcement was very brief. I don’t know actually
where all the other reporters came from. There were quite a number of
reporters in the room already. And as best as I understand it, there
were a vast number of reporters who never got into the hospital in
the emergency area, and had moved into this second floor room for the
announcement.

At any rate, everybody seemed ready for an announcement at the time
that Mr. Kilduff got there. And so the announcement itself took a
minute.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, at the time the announcement was made, had you talked
with other reporters or other people in the area so that you were able
to tell whether there was any prevailing attitude or rumors circulating
around as to the condition of the President?

Mr. KANTOR. No; I had no opportunity. The only people I talked to were
the two Texas Congressmen, as I got off the phone, and that was the
only word I had with anyone until the announcement came from Malcolm.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that you didn’t, yourself, even have any firm
expectation as to what the announcement of Kilduff would be?

Mr. KANTOR. No; I knew it was a rather grim situation, but I didn’t
know how grim.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was a prepared statement handed out?

Mr. KANTOR. No; it was not. He made the statement under trying
circumstances. His voice was quivering. He was leaning on a table
which is used by a teacher in the classroom, which was being used as
an emergency press headquarters. With great difficulty he made the
announcement that the President had died at about 1 o’clock, which
would have been a half hour before he was making the announcement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you fix the time of the announcement at 1:30?

Mr. KANTOR. I was following my watch very closely because it was a
matter of newspaper deadlines, especially for our Texas papers. The
reason I had called Washington was because I felt that I could not
begin calling our three papers in Texas individually, and I felt that
from Washington the story could be related to all 18 of our papers. And
so I was watching the time closely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you report to your Washington office that the time
of the announcement had been 1:30?

Mr. KANTOR. I believe I did. And if I didn’t, the wire services were
doing that at the same time. But Mr. Kilduff said that he would have
further announcements to make in--I think he established the time as 10
minutes. And told us to make our phone calls or do what we had to do,
and return to this room.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make a phone call?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I went down the hall. There were no phones set up for
us, of course. We were going into whatever offices we could find with
available phones. I went into an office, a large office, which had
three nurses in it, and asked if I could use one of their phones. And,
again, I had trouble getting out.

After trying over and over, I managed to talk to Mr. Egger again and
tell him. And by now he was concerned with the Vice President, what was
going to happen there, and should the office send another man down to
start following Mr. Johnson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long did this telephone conversation last?

Mr. KANTOR. Probably took me 5 minutes to get out, and the conversation
was about 5 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then did you return to Mr. Kilduff for further
announcements?

Mr. KANTOR. I returned to the room, and Mr. Kilduff, to the best of my
recollection, was not there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long after you made your telephone call was it before
you walked outside of Parkland Hospital again?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, upon later recollection I thought that it was about
10 to 15 minutes, because we went back into the makeshift pressroom
and--I really am not sure whether Mr. Kilduff was there or not.

But Bill Stinson, who was--who is an aide to Governor John Connally,
came in dressed in a doctor’s uniform--he had just come from the
emergency room, and was mistaken for being a doctor. And I remember
Kilduff or someone talking to him before Stinson talked to us to tell
us about the Governor’s condition. I remember Kilduff saying, “1
o’clock, 1 o’clock, 1 o’clock.” I didn’t know what significance that
had. So I guess that Malcolm Kilduff was there when we returned.

Wayne Hawks, of the transportation staff of the White House,
interrupted and said that a pool was needed immediately, and about four
or five of us, perhaps as many as seven people altogether, followed
him and ran down a stairway towards the main entranceway. I didn’t
know what a pool was needed for, and I was very reluctant to leave the
hospital. But when I got outside in the main entrance area, I saw the
Texas congressional delegation----

Mr. GRIFFIN. About where was that? Put a number on the diagram, please.

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; the sidewalk curved, somehow, like this, and the cars
were stretched along this area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me indicate for the record that you have
placed a No. “2” on the diagram, and that you have made a curved line
that indicates a walk, and some marks alongside it to represent the
automobiles. Go ahead.

Mr. KANTOR. I spoke to Henry Gonzalez, who was holding a brown paper
bag in his hand. He told me that it was the effects of Governor
Connally. Mr. Gonzalez was still badly shaken.

And I talked to Senator Yarborough again. And he said that the group
was going to the airport immediately.

And I knew then that the pool was formed to go out to the airport.
However, I still didn’t want to leave the hospital, because I know that
my office was concerned with what was going to happen to Mr. Johnson.

At the same time, I saw Mr. and Mrs. Johnson closely guarded coming out
of the hospital, completely surrounded by men, and put into a car, and
they sped away.

I spoke to the mayor of Dallas, Earl Cabell. He was unable to furnish
me with any information as to what was going to happen. I turned then
and went back up to the second floor.

Now, as I had told the FBI, it was either at this point or it was at
a point originally when I went up behind Malcolm Kilduff that I spoke
with Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let me ask you to place on the map
approximately where you were the first time that you think you might
have seen Jack Ruby--if you would place a No. “3” on the map where you
were the first time when you think you might have seen Ruby.

Mr. KANTOR. All right. It was inside the building, but just barely
inside. It was just immediately inside the doorway. I am not sure, as I
said, whether there was a small door next to the main entrance itself,
or whether this occurred just inside the main entrance. But it seems to
me it was----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me suggest that maybe what you could do is use two
numbers, a 3-A and 3-B, to indicate the two places the first time you
think you might have seen Ruby.

Mr. KANTOR. Well, so far as I remember, it would--I mean I am talking
about the same place in both instances.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Let me----

Mr. KANTOR. I am just not sure in my memory of the physical makeup of
this entranceway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me get this straight, then. The first time you saw
Ruby, before you went up to Mr. Kilduff’s press conference----

Mr. KANTOR. No, sir; what I am saying is I only saw him once and talked
to him that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I understand. You are not sure whether you saw him before
or after the press conference?

Mr. KANTOR. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, if you saw him the first time, are you uncertain as
to whether--as to which door it was that you saw him by?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I am uncertain as to which door I went in. And as I
went in the door, that is where he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what I am asking you to do, then, is indicate by
the Nos. 3-A and 3-B where these two doors might have been that you
are uncertain about, having reference to the time you went into the
building just before the press conference.

Mr. KANTOR. Well, it was the same door both times. It is just that I am
unsure where that door is.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. KANTOR. But it is in this main entrance area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it----

Mr. KANTOR. I would have to just guess, really.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it from what you are saying that you feel that the
door was not on that portion of the entranceway towards Harry Hines
Boulevard, or am I mistaken about that? I want to try to limit this
somewhere as to what area you think this might have been in.

Mr. KANTOR. I don’t recall going past the main entranceway, going
towards Harry Hines Boulevard. It seems to me that it either was right
at the main entrance, or a door perhaps adjacent to the main entrance,
because it seems like it was a small entranceway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, let me ask you again then--why don’t you
place a 3-A where this small door before the main entranceway might
have been, and a 3-B generally indicating the main entranceway.

Mr. KANTOR. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is there anything in particular about the doorway
that you were in--that you were near at the time you thought you saw
Ruby that sticks out in your mind?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, three things. It was not a large doorway keeps
sticking in my mind--that is why I have doubts about it being right in
the main entrance. Also there were stairs within, a very few steps, 5
to 10 steps, probably, within the doorway there was a stairway going
up. And, thirdly, I recall that beside Jack Ruby there were nurses
and there were people who looked like interns--at any rate they were
doctors, dressed in white.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall if during the period you were at
Parkland Hospital, as you drove into Parkland Hospital and at the time
you left, if this entranceway to the hospital by Harry Hines Boulevard
was blocked or guarded in any way to prevent the entrance of normal
private vehicles?

Mr. KANTOR. It appeared to be that way as we came up. On the other
hand, the driver of our vehicle, at our urging, leaned out of his
window and hollered “Press.” Perhaps he said White House Press. At any
rate, the officer immediately in our way backed off and waved us in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, directing your attention to the main entranceway of
the hospital, where would parking facilities be in relationship to that
main entranceway for normal people visiting the hospital on regular
business?

Mr. KANTOR. Even when I was a newspaperman in Dallas, I always went to
the emergency area when I had to go to the hospital, because it was
relative to a story. I am not totally sure about this area. There is
a parking area--because I can remember buses coming in and out of this
area here. But it seems to me it would be set back on the opposite
side, and that this would be the throughway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you have drawn a line perpendicular to
Harry Hines Boulevard, paralleling the side of Parkland Hospital that
the main entrance is on, and then to--would that be the south of that
line?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have placed some more hashmarks, and you think there
is where the general parking area was.

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; it is very vague to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We can check this ourselves. I am trying to get some idea
where a man like Ruby would have parked his automobile to get to the
place where you think you saw him.

Well, now, what happened----

Mr. KANTOR. Well, excuse me. I am sorry. If that is what you are
getting at.

There is a parking area on the west side, also, as best I can remember,
because, it seems to me that there were a great number of cars in the
area where we were first let out of the station wagon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Now, would the parking area be in here where I am
placing this line?

Mr. KANTOR. I believe so, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will write “Parking” on there. And I will put parking
over there, just in front of the main entrance to the hospital.

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, can you tell us what happened when you saw Ruby--when
you encountered Ruby at Parkland Hospital, what the encounter consisted
of?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I apparently walked right past him, because the first
I was aware of Jack Ruby was that as I was walking, I was stopped
momentarily by a tug on the back of my jacket. And I turned and saw
Jack Ruby standing there. He had his hand extended. I very well
remember my first thought. I thought, well, there is Jack Ruby. I had
been away from Dallas 18 months and 1 day at that time, but it seemed
just perfectly normal to see Jack Ruby standing there, because he was a
known goer to events. And I had my mind full of many things.

My next reaction was to just turn and continue on my way. But he did
have his hand out. And I took his hand and shook hands with him. He
called me by name. And I said hello to him, I said, “Hello, Jack,” I
guess. And he said, “Isn’t this a terrible thing?” I said, “Yes”; but
I also knew it was no time for small talk, and I was most anxious to
continue on up the stairway, because I was standing right at the base
of the stairway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you inside the building or outside?

Mr. KANTOR. I was inside the building, just immediately inside the
building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were the doors guarded?

Mr. KANTOR. If there was a guard on the door, I don’t recall seeing one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you do recall, however, that there was a guard at the
entrance to the emergency area?

Mr. KANTOR. There was at least one guard, yes--when I first got there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. Go ahead.

Mr. KANTOR. A Dallas policeman. I am not sure how many Secret Service
men or other guards there were. But I do remember this one man, because
he let me in.

At any rate, Jack Ruby said, “Isn’t this a terrible thing,” or words to
that effect. I agreed with him that it was.

And he said--and he had quite a look of consternation on his face. He
looked emotional--which also seemed fitting enough for Jack Ruby.

But he asked me, curiously enough, he said, “Should I close my places
for the next 3 nights, do you think?”

And I said, “Yes, I think that is a good idea.”

And I excused myself. And he said he understood, and I went on.

And that was the sum total of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you this: At the time you were out at Parkland
Hospital, did you see any other press representatives whom you had
remembered from your days in Dallas, who worked in Dallas?

Mr. KANTOR. I didn’t see any outside. However, by the time Kilduff
made his announcement at 1:30, there were newsmen coming in from all
over whom I recognized. And because of this weird situation, unreal
situation, I didn’t speak to any then.

During the next hour or so that I was in the hospital I saw a number of
news people from both Dallas and Fort Worth who I at least said hello
to, who I know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember if there were any people from the Dallas
Morning News that you saw at Parkland Hospital, either reporters or
photographers?

Mr. KANTOR. I can tell you who I remember seeing, and I don’t think I
recall seeing a Dallas Morning News person at all until I got to the
police station later that afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are going to tell me who you remember seeing from the
Dallas papers at Parkland Hospital, or just who you generally remember
seeing during those 3 days.

Mr. KANTOR. I can tell you who I can remember seeing in the makeshift
press headquarters from Dallas and Fort Worth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At Parkland?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. But I take it you don’t remember anybody from
the Morning News?

Mr. KANTOR. I don’t recall anyone from the Dallas Morning News, no, as
a matter of fact.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. How far is the Morning News Building in Dallas
from the Times Herald Building?

Mr. KANTOR. The better part of a mile.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you saw Ruby, did you notice anybody with him? Did he
seem to be with anybody?

Mr. KANTOR. He didn’t seem to be with anybody. The only other people
I noticed in this area--as I say, it seemed like a small entranceway,
and it was just a very few steps to the stairway--were these people who
appeared to be hospital attendants.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall if at the time you were at Parkland
Hospital there were television cameras setup outside the main
entranceway?

Mr. KANTOR. No. I was told later on that various people around the
country who I know saw me on television as I came out to talk to the
Congressmen before they went out to Love Field, and I was not aware of
any cameras.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But it is your best impression that you were shown on TV?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, I have been told that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you any idea what TV networks you appeared on?

Mr. KANTOR. No, sir; none.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now----

Mr. KANTOR. This happened frequently, incidentally, over the weekend,
also, in the police station as well. I don’t know--I guess all the
networks were involved at one point or another, but I don’t know when
or where.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the first report that you made of this encounter with
Ruby, you reported that you saw him before you went to the press
conference.

Mr. KANTOR. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And now as I understand your testimony, you are not sure
whether it was before or after.

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; and the thing that gave me pause was that Jack Ruby
had specifically said to me, or asked me my opinion about closing
his places for three nights, and it occurred to me later on that no
announcement of the President’s death had been made, as I was following
Kilduff up the stairway, at 1:30, whereas at approximately 2 o’clock it
had been made.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you try to focus on your state of mind at the time
that you first wrote your newspaper article about this, and reported
that it was before the press conference. What was it at that time that
made you think that you saw Ruby before the press conference?

Mr. KANTOR. To be honest, with all the events crowded into that
weekend, I don’t think that I recalled the significance of my second
brief trip out of the hospital to the main entranceway in front of the
hospital, and then back in again. It was a very fast trip. And I think
it was just a failure on my part to remember the second incident.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. As you were going back into the hospital the
second time, where were you going?

Mr. KANTOR. I was returning to the makeshift press headquarters in the
classroom, on the second floor.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As you were entering that building, did you have any
expectation that there was something important going on at that
pressroom that you ought to get to right away?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, I didn’t know. I knew that I was not going with this
pool group, and that my people in Washington were interested in knowing
the logistics of the U.S. Government at that moment, where Lyndon
Johnson was going and what was going to happen, and were we remaining
in Dallas, and John Connally’s condition, and everything at once. And
this seemed to be the logical place to get whatever information there
was, because information was very scanty.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I want to get at is whether your concern or
apprehension about getting into the building was any greater as you
went in before the press conference than it was when you returned after
the press conference.

Mr. KANTOR. No; I would say this was a consistent feeling.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that your reluctance to stop and talk with Ruby when
you saw him wouldn’t have been any greater at one time than at another?

Mr. KANTOR. Oh, no. I saw really a number of close friends on the
second floor of the hospital, newspapermen who I had known intimately,
been to their house, and they had been to my house quite often. And we
still didn’t indulge in anything resembling small talk.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, do you have any question in your mind that you did
see Ruby out at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. KANTOR. If it was a matter of just seeing him, I would have long
ago been full of doubt. But I did talk to the man, and he did stop me,
and I just can’t have any doubt about that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now----

Mr. KANTOR. As a matter of fact, I didn’t give it much thought, or any
thought, perhaps, again, concrete thought at least, until the following
night, Saturday night, when things quieted down enough so that I could
take a walk in downtown Dallas, somewhere around 10 o’clock in the
evening. And I passed by Ruby’s place, the Carousel, and saw a sign
on the door stating that it was closed. And I recalled this weird
conversation I had had with him at the hospital.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now----

Mr. KANTOR. Excuse me--because a man named Barney Weinstein, who
operates a strip joint a couple of doors away, had his place open.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first think about this again after Saturday?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, I understood later on that Jack Ruby had been in
the assembly room in the basement of the Dallas Police Station after
midnight on Friday going into Saturday. I didn’t see him at that time.
I was in that room. It was a very crowded room. But I thought about
our conversation on Saturday when I passed by his place. And earlier
Saturday evening I thought of Jack Ruby because meat sandwiches, beef
sandwiches, I believe they were, had shown up in the pressroom of the
Dallas Police Station, and I heard someone remark that Jack Ruby had
brought them in. I didn’t see him then, either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You heard this while you were at the police station?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; Well, I was going in the room to get a sandwich, and
they were gone, they were gone very rapidly. I heard someone either
specifically say it to me or I heard someone specifically saying to
someone else that Jack Ruby was the person that brought these in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that Friday afternoon or late Friday evening, or in
the middle of Friday?

Mr. KANTOR. I am not sure now. It seems to me that it was Saturday. It
seems to me that it was Saturday, late afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, when, after you walked down Commerce Street on
Saturday night did you next think about your encounter with Ruby at
Parkland Hospital?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, having walked past his place, and having seen that it
was closed, I don’t know whether I gave it any more thought.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean after that, when was the next time you thought
about it?

Mr. KANTOR. The next time was just moments after 11:21 a.m., Sunday
morning, when I discovered that Jack Ruby had shot Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, what did you do immediately after Ruby shot Oswald?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, to begin with, I didn’t see anything more than a
hand and a gun as the shooting occurred. I was very close to where Lee
Harvey Oswald was walking. I was intently watching his face and was in
hopes I could ask him a question as he approached.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Let me ask you to do this. We have a diagram
here of the jail basement. You might take a look at it. I am going to
mark on the diagram “Seth Kantor Deposition, June 2, 1964, Exhibit No.
2.”

(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor, Exhibit No. 2, June
2, 1964, for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will try to explain the diagram to you.

Mr. KANTOR. I think I am beginning to understand. This is a rampway
here and a rampway here, is it not?

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have got the sides right. Here is the Main Street;
here is Commerce Street. Now, the ramp is at this point where it says
down ramp--that is the Main Street ramp. And at the base of the Main
Street ramp, there are some designations as to footage across the ramp.
And then in the portion of the map which is closest to you there is a
diagram of the jail office and the hallway that leads from the Harwood
Street side of the jail into the ramp area.

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I see.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And to refresh your recollection, the jail elevator which
is shown on the map is the elevator that Oswald was brought out of, and
he was led around in front of the dotted lines which are shown in the
diagram, and then over to a door which is also shown. Now, why don’t
you again take a pencil and indicate on the map where you were standing
at the time Oswald was shot. Why don’t you just cut a “K” there for
yourself.

Mr. KANTOR. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you indicated that you were standing right at what
would be the entranceway to the parking area of the garage on the west
side of the ramps that lead through the basement.

Mr. KANTOR. That is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you mention in your statement to the FBI that you saw
Detective Combest in the basement. Did you know Combest before----

Mr. KANTOR. No; the first time I talked to him was upstairs outside
Chief Curry’s office following the shooting.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you show us on the diagram here where Combest was
standing, to your recollection?

Mr. KANTOR. Right here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Marked with an X. Now, can you put a mark on the map where
Ruby was when you first saw him?

Mr. KANTOR. He was on the floor, having shot Lee Harvey Oswald, in
approximately the same place where I designated where Billy Combest was
standing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. So when you say all you saw was an arm and a gun,
you didn’t even notice him before the shooting?

Mr. KANTOR. No; I thought it was an officer who shot Oswald. That was
my first reaction.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Now, you indicated in your statement to the FBI
that you heard Combest say something. Did you actually hear that, or
did Combest tell you that?

Mr. KANTOR. No; I heard the words and did not know who uttered them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. And is it fair to say--well, let me ask you this:
The words that you heard, could you tell if they came from one person
or more than one person? Or was the confusion so great and things
moving so quickly you couldn’t really distinguish?

Mr. KANTOR. It was one man definitely saying, “You son of a bitch.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is your memory?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, I think you also indicated that you heard somebody
yell “Jack”. Do you have any recollection of that now? Somebody saying
“Jack”.

Mr. KANTOR. I am not as positive about that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. KANTOR. Upon talking with Combest upstairs, he told me, he told two
or three reporters there that that was what was said, and I used that
in my story.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, tell us what you saw happen after you saw Ruby down
on the floor.

Mr. KANTOR. Well, when the shot was fired, and I was still watching
Oswald, and heard him groan, and slump--watched him slump. For no good
reason at all, I moved in his direction. A man standing next to me from
the Dallas Times Herald, a reporter, moved with me. There was a car
located approximately right in front of us as we moved. Then we saw a
detective come bounding over the roof of the car and onto the hood and
landing here, just in front of this melee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where you marked the X on the map?

Mr. KANTOR. That is correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that officer?

Mr. KANTOR. I believe it was Detective Captain Jones.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And then what did you see happen?

Mr. KANTOR. I became painfully aware as I moved into this area which
was becoming very crowded and there was a lot of shoving and pushing
going on--there was a man down on the pavement, and I could not see who
it was. I heard one of the detectives, and I believe it was Captain
Jones, holler up to a police officer standing here something to the
effect that--shoot the first man who tries to move out, or something
like that. And I saw this officer swivel around, pointing his revolver
down into the ramp. And I became painfully aware that we were all
going to get shot and killed in another moment or two, and I tried
to back off this way. And the reporter from the Dallas Times Herald,
Bob Fenley, knew one of the detectives in this area, as Ruby was
being dragged off towards the jail office. The detective was weeping,
for one reason or another. And we were being pushed back. However,
Fenley crouched down low and moved towards his friend and asked him a
question, and came back and said to me very clearly, “The man who shot
Oswald is named Jack Ruby.” And I was surprised that Bob apparently
didn’t know Jack Ruby, because I thought everybody on the paper knew
Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do at that point?

Mr. KANTOR. I was mightily surprised and could not believe what I had
heard for a moment. And then I asked Bob if he knew Jack, and he said
no. I felt that--I guess my inclinations were as a newspaperman, and
I felt I wanted to get to Ruby as fast as possible and question him.
And I tried to get through to the jail office area, but there was no
chance. We were held there until Oswald was placed in the ambulance
right in front of where we were standing, and taken out. Then we were
allowed to proceed up to the third floor, and there we waited for close
to 2 hours outside of Curry’s office without any word of any sort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you interview anybody in the 2 hours that you were
standing outside of Curry’s office?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I spoke to Billy Combest.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anybody else?

Mr. KANTOR. I spoke to another police officer--I don’t recall his
name--who had been down there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you hear any rumors while you were standing outside of
Curry’s office as to how Ruby had gotten into the basement?

Mr. KANTOR. No; there was no speculation. I do recall some conversation
among reporters who had seen him on Friday night at the assembly room,
when I had not seen him. And I was surprised to learn that Ruby had
been there at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you remember the names of the reporters you talked to
who saw him in the assembly room Friday night?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, there was one reporter in particular whose name I
have in my notes at home. He was a radio reporter from New York City. I
am afraid that I just cannot recall his name at this moment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You have indicated that you do have some notes at home.
Have you retained all or substantially all of your notes from the 3
days that you were in Dallas?

Mr. KANTOR. I have kept all my written notes, and then everything was
so vivid when I returned that within about 3 weeks or so after I was
back I got a tape recorder and talked about 10,000 words into it, which
I had not written down, and which I then transcribed by typewriter, and
I have those, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do your notes reflect your activities at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do they show any times?

Mr. KANTOR. I believe they do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do your notes reflect your interview with Billy
Combest?

Mr. KANTOR. I believe that my handwritten notes would show that I
talked to Jack Combest, after the shooting of Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would they show what Combest said?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I believe so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would they reflect----

Mr. KANTOR. I am not sure about the detail. It may have been just a few
words.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I also understand that you interviewed George Senator on
November 24, is that right?

Mr. KANTOR. No; I was about to mention that while we were waiting for
Chief Curry to come out of his office, a man arrived just outside the
third floor elevator with--I am sorry, I am really going blank on
names--with the entertainment columnist for the Dallas Morning News.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Tony Zoppi?

Mr. KANTOR. Tony Zoppi--thank you. That is right. And then the first
reaction was sort of one of amusement because Zoppi looked like an
entrepreneur of a new event. And I went over. However, there was a
large circle of people around George Senator, and I listened to what I
could hear, and then moved back to my place which happened to be first
in line outside the chief’s office, and I didn’t want to give that up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you listen to Senator?

Mr. KANTOR. Perhaps 3 or 4 minutes. But I got there right at the tail
end, because a couple of plainclothes officers came out and removed
Senator, and insisted that he should not be talking to the press.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anybody else you interviewed on the 24th?

Mr. KANTOR. Zoppi came out with a pool report on Jack Ruby’s sister,
which a number of reporters listened to and took notes on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you were actually interviewing Zoppi at that point?

Mr. KANTOR. That is strictly what it amounted to. I spoke to Captain
Will Fritz. I spoke to Captain Glen King. But I might add that from the
moment that Oswald was shot, we were really cut off. We were getting
no more news--whereas we had gotten from our standpoint marvelous
cooperation before--we were finding out nothing all of a sudden.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear Senator say in the few minutes that you
did listen to him?

Mr. KANTOR. I heard George Senator say that Jack Ruby had been upset,
very much upset, and had gotten up, I believe, rather late Sunday
morning and said that he was going to take one of his dogs down to the
club. And I heard him say that he had--that Jack Ruby had placed a call
to a brother in Detroit. And I remember Senator stressing quite heavily
that Ruby had spent the weekend in an upset condition, had cried, had
wept quite a bit. I did ask Senator, only because I think I missed the
opening parts of the mass interview going on out there in the hall--I
asked him how long he had roomed with Ruby, a couple of particulars
like that, I think--just basic stuff. What he did for a living.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now----

Mr. KANTOR. I had never heard of him before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to go back a bit. About what time did you arrive in
the jail basement on Sunday, the 24th?

Mr. KANTOR. The transferral, as we understood it, was supposed to be
made at 10 o’clock. And I got up leisurely and was staying at the White
Plaza Hotel across the street, and made no effort to be there promptly
at 10 o’clock. The reason I did that is because Scripps-Howard wire to
its newspaper operates at night, and a morning event in itself is not
too awfully important.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you there before the shooting took place?

Mr. KANTOR. I got there about approximately a quarter to 11. I was
checked three times for identification upon getting down to the
basement.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you went down to the basement, did you remain the
entire time in that position “K” that you have marked there?

Mr. KANTOR. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you when you first went into the basement?

Mr. KANTOR. The regular bank of elevators, that is those going
upstairs----

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the Harwood side?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; are about here, are they not?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; the reporter, of course, can’t tell, but just let’s
refer to them as the Harwood elevators.

Mr. KANTOR. Well, I walked into the building and went up to the third
floor first, and then rode the elevator down to the basement--that
is the regular elevator. When I stepped out of the elevator, I was
stopped almost immediately by an officer, and he would not accept my
credentials at all, even though I had a White House card and my old
Dallas police card, Texas State Police card.

Some detective, I don’t know who, came over and looked at my
credentials and said that they were okay. And I went into the jail
office, and took up a position along the west wall. There is a
counter--there was a counter opposite me on which a camera was set up,
as I recall, and there were a handful of other reporters in there. And
Captain Jones at about 11:15 walked in briskly and said that we all
would have to leave.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then where did you go?

Mr. KANTOR. Fenley and I were together, and I told Fenley to delay
leaving as long as possible because it appeared that they were ready to
move Oswald, and maybe if we tarried long enough, we could still be in
there. But it didn’t work. And though we moved slowly--we moved down
the line of people who were along here, and took up a position about
here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, why don’t you mark a “1” there at your first position.

Mr. KANTOR. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did you remain at position 1?

Mr. KANTOR. We just walked into that position and they pulled out a
couple of police cars, one of which was directly behind where I was
standing, and, therefore, causing me to move over here, where it was
rather crowded, along the post.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did those police cars go that they moved out?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, as I recall--there may have been three, but I am not
sure--one went to the Commerce Street ramp side and one pulled in front
of us facing Main Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that car that was facing Main Street, did it stop,
or did you see it go up the Main Street ramp, or what, or don’t you
remember?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, I don’t remember how many cars were involved. There
was a car which pulled out and stopped directly in front of us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall a car driving up the Main Street ramp?

Mr. KANTOR. I don’t now; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you in the police building on Friday night?

Mr. KANTOR. Until approximately 2:30 in the morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what time did you arrive that evening or afternoon?

Mr. KANTOR. I went directly from Love Field after the President’s plane
took off, and got there about 4 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did you remain there continuously, from 4 until 2:30?

Mr. KANTOR. Without a break.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how much of that time was spent up on the third floor?

Mr. KANTOR. The entire time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you attend the press conference Henry Wade had with
Chief Curry in the assembly room?

Mr. KANTOR. I am sorry. I did go down there after midnight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you have notes of that press conference?

Mr. KANTOR. No; I had a lot of trouble hearing, first of all--a lot of
trouble hearing Oswald. I picked up a couple of words he was muttering.
I was standing on a table about halfway back in the room. And then
immediately following that, I guess Henry Wade had a conference. Is
that what you are referring to?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. KANTOR. I don’t know--I guess I have got a couple of notes on it. I
don’t know how extensive.

Mr. GRIFFIN. During the period you were in the city hall or the police
department building on Friday night, did you see Jack Ruby?

Mr. KANTOR. Never.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, were you in the police department building on
Saturday?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. For what period were you in there on Saturday?

Mr. KANTOR. I was in the building between 10 a.m., and about 9:15 p.m.,
or perhaps a little bit later in the evening. However, I did leave the
building a couple of times to go across the street for food.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember seeing Jack Ruby at all on Saturday?

Mr. KANTOR. No; I did not see him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you would like to
ask?

Mr. HUBERT. I think you better clarify about the second automobile that
pulled up. I got the impression, as you testified, that the front of
the second car was headed toward Main Street. Is that correct?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes, sir; to the best of my recollection it was, because I
had explained to Mr. Griffin that I remember an officer coming over the
top of the car and bounding down to the hood and then off.

Mr. HUBERT. But the first car that pulled up headed toward Commerce
Street?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, I wish I could be certain about it, but I am not sure
of the order. I was mostly aware at that moment that it was apparent
that Oswald was about to be moved, and that I was being shoved a little
bit to make room for these cars to get out, and that I wanted a good
vantage point. And I think that was my chief concern.

Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned that you were in the assembly room at the
time Oswald was brought down to see the press, and that you were
standing on a table, I think, at the rear, and that you did not see
Ruby in that room at all.

Mr. KANTOR. I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anyone make any comment to Wade concerning the
Fair Play for Cuba Committee, or correct a statement that Wade made in
connection with the Fair Play for Cuba Committee? Well, let me put it
this way: Did you hear Wade make any comment with respect to a Cuban
committee at all?

Mr. KANTOR. I believe that there was. I don’t think I took notes on
this. Our Latin American correspondent called from Miami early in the
evening and had talked about this matter to me. I do vaguely recall
some conversation involving Henry Wade on that matter, and I don’t
think----

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection at present that Henry Wade
made a comment about some Cuban committee?

Mr. KANTOR. I don’t remember whether he was asked specifically about
this, or whether he brought it up. But I do vaguely recall there was
some conversation about it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Then did you hear someone correct his
designation or, rather, the name of the committee?

Mr. KANTOR. It almost seems as though I did. I could not swear to it.

Mr. HUBERT. How many people were in that room?

Mr. KANTOR. It was very crowded. I would estimate about 60, perhaps.

Mr. HUBERT. And how large was the room?

Mr. KANTOR. I would say about 25 or 30 yards long, and about 10 to 12
yards wide, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you at the back of the room?

Mr. KANTOR. I was in approximately the middle of the room, standing on
a table, which did put me in a position of being more to the rear of
the group.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anyone else standing on a table?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes, sir; quite a few were standing on tables.
Photographers took up choice positions immediately in front of Oswald,
as he was led in. In order both to hear and see I think the majority of
people were standing on tables.

Mr. HUBERT. I have no further questions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first report to your newspaper that you had
seen Ruby at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. KANTOR. Again, I telephoned Charles Egger at about 1:30 Sunday
afternoon, told him that I was well acquainted with Jack Ruby, and had
seen him at the hospital. He said, “That sounds like a pretty good
story for tomorrow.” I waited until sometime during the evening to
write it simply because we didn’t know what was going to happen next.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notify any police department officials that you
had seen him at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. KANTOR. No; as a matter of fact, I wrote it in my story, and never
said a word to anybody beyond that.

An FBI man asked me about it about 5 days later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, Mr. Kantor, would you look over the two diagrams we
have been talking about, Exhibit No. 1 and Exhibit No. 2, and if those
are correct in terms of what we have been talking about, would you sign
them?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I would be happy to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And please date it, also.

Mr. KANTOR. Surely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let the record reflect that Mr. Kantor has signed
Deposition Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 and dated them.

The taking of the deposition is recessed until a time tomorrow
afternoon to be arranged to suit the convenience of Mr. Kantor.



TESTIMONY OF SETH KANTOR RESUMED

The testimony of Seth Kantor was taken at 5:10 p.m., on June 3, 1964,
at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W.
Griffin and Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President’s
Commission.


Mr. GRIFFIN. At the outset let me ask you if it is agreeable with you
that the oath and the formalities which we went through originally
yesterday will continue to prevail at this point in the deposition,
that you understand it is a continuation.

Mr. KANTOR. I understand I am still under oath.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, fine. When we recessed yesterday we had asked
you to check on certain notes and documents. I want to ask you before
we get into that, however, one final question in respect to what we did
cover yesterday, and I want to ask you to search your mind and tell
us what doubts, if you have any, that you might have that the man who
you have identified as Jack Ruby, Parkland Hospital on November 22 was
indeed Jack Ruby.

Mr. KANTOR. Well, I would like to say that a little more than 6 months
have passed and I think I have doubted almost anything in searching
my memory which has happened over a period of 6 months or more in my
lifetime. I think if you think about something a good deal you wonder
whether it actually happened.

However, I was indelibly sure at the time and have continued to be so
that the man who stopped me and with whom I talked was Jack Ruby. I
feel strongly about it because I had known Jack Ruby and he did call me
by my first name as he came up behind me, and at that moment under the
circumstances it was a fairly normal conversation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any acquaintances that you had in Dallas while
you were there, who you in the past had mistaken for Jack Ruby? Have
you ever had the experience of seeing somebody else and mistaking him
for Jack Ruby?

Mr. KANTOR. I see what you mean. No; that never occurred at any time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know people in Dallas who ran some of the other
nightclubs?

Mr. KANTOR. I had met Mr. Barney Weinstein who operates at least a
couple of strip joints that I know of, and that was on one occasion
when I was doing a story on a stripteaser named Candy Barr and that
occasion was when I was going down to the State prison where she was
living at the time to do a story on her for the paper and that was the
only time I had met Mr. Weinstein.

However, there is a booking agent in Dallas whose nickname is Pappy, I
have his name in my notes here somewhere.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Pappy Dolson?

Mr. KANTOR. D-o-l-s-o-n, that is right. I had done a story on him,
and he was well acquainted with Jack Ruby, I knew, and then I saw him
while I remained in Dallas after the assassination, spoke to him and
interviewed him for a story.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do either Weinstein or Dolson bear any resemblance to Jack
Ruby?

Mr. KANTOR. None. None, nothing that close that I would mistake them.
Neither one, I don’t believe, either, would stop me in the passageway
of the hospital after I had been gone for a year and a half and call me
by my first name. I don’t think they would remember me that easily or
have any special reason to call me by my first name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you have brought a series of papers and notebooks
with you. Can you work from these one at a time, can you tell us what
you have there?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes. Initially, I have the notebook I took down with me to
Texas from Washington while accompanying the President, and in it are
the notes of the trip.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me look at it a second.

Mr. KANTOR. Sure, I was just going to recommend you skip the first
page. Those were notes I made on the plane going down. From then on
anything you want to look at is fine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The notebook that you handed me is a notebook that is a
long stenographic type notebook. I would say it is 8 inches long and
perhaps 3 to 4 inches wide.

Mr. KANTOR. It sounds reasonable, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And it has the label “EFF-JAY Notebook” and it is put
out by Fox-Jones Co., Washington 5, D.C., and No. 1419 and there is
handwritten on the front of this in pencil “President Kennedy’s Trip to
Texas, November 21–22, 1963.”

Does anything in this notebook pertain to your activities at Parkland
Hospital?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; several pages in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could you indicate, can you find in here the pages that
pertain to that Parkland Hospital episode?

Mr. KANTOR. I am going to have to apologize for the writing here. Among
other things in addition to being a bad scribbler I did much of this on
the run, these pages.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you don’t mind I would like to look at them and see
again if I can ask some questions from them. Do the notes on the pages
which you have separated here follow in chronological order? Is there
any way you can tell from looking at these notes when, what time you
would have put it down?

Mr. KANTOR. Pretty well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Can you tell us what portion of those notes you
made before the actual press conference with Malcolm Kilduff, if any.

Mr. KANTOR. On this page there are written some idle notes as we moved
from Love Field into the downtown area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am talking about notes made at Parkland Hospital.

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; and then starting here, these notes were made
immediately outside the hospital as I stood outside talking with
Senator Yarborough, and these--from this point on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are talking about the bottom of the page of the “Yarb”
notes?

Mr. KANTOR. Correct. From that point on--the top of that page to
the bottom of the following page I made no notes--which would be
approximately a half hour while I was on the telephone and talking in
the hallway to the Texas Congressman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The notes which start on the page which said “JFK died at
approximately 1 p.m.” Where was that notation made?

Mr. KANTOR. It was made in the makeshift pressroom of the second floor
where Malcolm Kilduff led us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So there is one page you refer to here which starts out,
“Yarborough--third car back” and winds up with some notes at the bottom
of page--which I won’t attempt to read, not because your writing is any
worse than mine but just to save time here for the moment, those notes
were all made before the press conference but were made at Parkland
Hospital?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do they--do all of these notes represent things which
were told you while you were at Parkland Hospital or do they represent
things that you might have learned even before arriving at Parkland
Hospital?

Mr. KANTOR. No. I am reading this as you were talking, and everything
here was gained in conversation with Senator Yarborough standing
outside the emergency area of the hospital. That is true, that is right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Having had a chance to look at those notes again and
thinking about our conversation during the last couple of days--is
there any indication from those notes that you knew or had a strong
idea prior to the time Kilduff gave this press conference that
President Kennedy was not going to survive?

Mr. KANTOR. No. I don’t know whether it was a matter of not wanting
to accept the strong possibility, but really until I went into the
hospital and saw the priest in the hallway and the look on Lady Bird
Johnson’s face, I had no strong premonition about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But did you see the priest and Lady Bird Johnson before
the press conference?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I did, while I was on the telephone talking to my
office in Washington.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Right. By the time you got off the telephone what was
your--and having seen Lady Bird Johnson and the priest and so forth?

Mr. KANTOR. I still didn’t know that the President had been hit in the
head, and when Congressman Thomas told me that a brain surgeon had been
brought in, I knew then that he had been hit in the head but I didn’t
know until that point even where he had been hit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you have had a chance, I suppose, to talk with other
newspaper people and other people who were present at Parkland Hospital
since this event, have you not?

Mr. KANTOR. Not in depth. I have had some conversations with people who
were there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In your conversations with people who were there, have you
gained any information that those who were in the area around Parkland
Hospital attentive to what might be going on, had an idea or believed
that the President was dead before the announcement was made by Mr.
Kilduff?

Mr. KANTOR. Well, I am sure I have not asked anybody outside of a
couple of Congressmen I have talked to since then who were a lot
closer to the situation than I obviously was at that time, and they
really knew what was going on. And I haven’t asked anyone, I guess I
felt no reason to ask and I don’t recall anyone volunteering that they
specifically believed the President was moribund.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t want to push you into saying something----

Mr. KANTOR. I am not aware of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do your notes here--do you have any notes here which
reflect your observations in the Dallas Police Department from the time
you arrived there until the time you left Dallas?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you show us in here where those notes are?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes. Just any and all in the police station?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. KANTOR. Right. Where you have placed the marker here is the extent
of notes taken in the police station between Friday afternoon, November
22 and Sunday evening, November 24.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask a few questions about the notes. I notice that
you have made the notation and I will read it, “Ruby asked question
Friday night at press conference.” Do you remember making that notation?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember who told you that or how you came to learn
that?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes. I mentioned yesterday that there was a radio reporter
from New York City whose name escaped me and I believe I----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have that name now?

Mr. KANTOR. I believe I have it in my notes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. KANTOR. The name of the reporter as I have it in here in these
notes is Ike Pappas. And--do you want me to read to you what I have
here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. If that is the most accurate thing you can give us.

Mr. KANTOR. Yes. This is what I recalled from memory as soon as I got
back from Dallas and read into the tape recorder and this is the way
I wrote it down from that. This describes the meeting in the assembly
room, in the police assembly room, shortly after Friday night going
into Saturday.

“Sunday afternoon District Attorney Henry Wade was to say to the press
that Jack Ruby was present Friday night during that strange press
conference. I understand or I am told.

“A New York City radio reporter, Ike Pappas, corrected Henry and said
that he, Pappas, had been talking with Ruby in the assembly room and
Ruby had given him a card and had invited him to be his guest in the
Carousel when it reopened. Pappas still carried the card in his wallet;
said that he brought Ruby over to the District Attorney and that the
D.A. seemed to know Mr. Ruby. Henry smiled but gave no answer, after
first saying that Ruby was mistaken for being a reporter.”

The time which I referred to here that Mr. Wade smiled was when Ike
Pappas reminded Henry Wade on Sunday that he had talked to Ruby on
Friday night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, are you saying there that Pappas learned from Wade or
that you learned from Wade that Ruby had interrupted him, interrupted
Wade at the press conference?

Mr. KANTOR. It wasn’t so much that I learned it. This was an
announcement made by Wade Sunday afternoon or Sunday evening in that
same police assembly room to a gathering of reporters among whom I was
present in which he said that he understood that Ruby had been present
Friday night, and then Ike Pappas said, “You know that he was present
because the three of us were talking.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see. What is the reference that you had in there. I
thought I understood the reference in there that Ruby interrupted Wade
at some point in the press conference. Is that written in there or did
I hear it incorrectly?

Mr. KANTOR. I think that is something you asked me about yesterday,
wasn’t it, about an interruption of which I wasn’t sure?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t we do this: I am going to mark the pages that we
are going to photostat here with separate exhibit numbers on your book,
and then, if I may, have these pages photostated, and give you the
complete notebook back because we are going to take the full notebook.
In other words, I would like to write down at the bottom of the page a
number, if I could.

Mr. KANTOR. You mean you want to remove the page?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; we are not going to remove the page, but I would like
to put a notation on your notebook, with your permission.

Mr. KANTOR. All right; please go ahead.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark the cover of this notebook in the
following manner: “Seth Kantor, Deposition June 3, 1964, Exhibit No. 3.”

(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor Exhibit No. 3, June 3,
1964, for identification.)

Mr. KANTOR. May I say something off the record?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then on the page “Yarb-third car back,” I will cross out
where I have written the identification in full and I will write “3-A,”
so that we are correct here. Does this page which I am pointing my
finger to, is that a note that was taken at Parkland Hospital?

Mr. KANTOR. At approximately 1:30 during the afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would, could you find the first page in here that
you believe was made at the Dallas Police Station?

I am going to mark these pages at the bottom, subletter “3-B,” “3-C”
et cetera, the ones he has identified as having been made at the
Dallas Police Station, so that we will have subletters in here and in
the record a list of the pages which Mr. Kantor indicates were made
contemporaneously with his activities at the police station.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that correct, Mr. Kantor?

Mr. KANTOR. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. And you have picked out the ones that fit the definition
just given by Mr. Griffin?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The last page is where I have put the paper clip.

Mr. HUBERT. We want all of them between the paper clips. I have marked
all of the pages starting with 3-A, Mr. Kantor, and running through
the alphabet and then starting another series of 3 using double A and
double B and so forth through 3 double R, and I ask you if it is not a
fact that all of these pages so marked are in your handwriting.

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; they are.

Mr. HUBERT. They were notes made by you contemporaneously with the
events to which they relate?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; they were made contemporaneously.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. We will have these photostated and give the book
back to you.

Mr. KANTOR. All right.

(The documents referred to were marked Seth Kantor Exhibits Nos. 3-A
through 3-RR for identification.)

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Kantor, you have handed me a series of papers
which seem to be in order, that is to say, pages running from 1, I
think, through 19.

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Which I am marking for identification on the first page by
placing the following at the bottom: “Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964,
Exhibit No. 4, Deposition of Seth Kantor,” and I ask you what these
documents purport to be.

(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor Exhibit No. 4 for
identification.)

Mr. KANTOR. These documents are notes which I made upon my return
from Dallas after spending 16 days following the assassination of the
President. They are notes which, by and large, I hadn’t written down as
events occurred but which I wanted to put down on paper while I still
remembered everything in as great a detail as possible.

Mr. HUBERT. Were these notes which have been marked as Exhibit No. 4,
made all at one time?

Mr. KANTOR. No; they were not. They were made over a 1-week period.

Mr. HUBERT. What period was that, in point of calendar date?

Mr. KANTOR. They were in December 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. They were made by you?

Mr. KANTOR. They were made by me.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you make them in fact?

Mr. KANTOR. I rented a tape recorder and spoke all of this into the
tape recorder and then played the tape recorder back and wrote it down
by means of typewriter.

Mr. HUBERT. So that this typing on Exhibit No. 4 is actually your own
typing?

Mr. KANTOR. It is my own typing.

Mr. HUBERT. It is not a stenographer or typist?

Mr. KANTOR. No, sir; it is mine.

Mr. HUBERT. And it came from the tape, and you dictated into the tape
recorder over a week’s time all of this material?

Mr. KANTOR. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir. Have you read this recently?

Mr. KANTOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. But can you state to us that it represents your best
recollection of what occurred?

Mr. KANTOR. It would be a better recollection than I could give you now
on anything which transpired.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. With your permission, sir, then we will hold
these, have them photostated, and return the originals to you.

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; that is all right.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Kantor, you have handed us a small Penway brand
spiral-backed memo book in which there are 9 pages, each page, of
course, having a front and a back, and I ask you whether the notes
on those pages of this book that I have identified, and now further
identify as Exhibit No. 5 of the deposition of Seth Kantor, June 3,
1964, if those notes are in your handwriting.

(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor Exhibit No. 5 for
identification.)

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; they are.

Mr. HUBERT. Were they made contemporaneously with the events to which
they refer?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; they were made contemporaneously with the events.

Mr. HUBERT. I think the record shows that it has been identified as
Exhibit No. 5 of your deposition. And here, again, with reference to
Exhibit No. 5, we will have photostats made of the back and front of
all these pages, and then return the book to you.

I notice on the first page of Exhibit No. 5 that you have the name Mrs.
Michael R. Paine. Does that indicate that there was an interview with
her?

Mr. KANTOR. The interview took place at her residence on the outskirts
of Dallas late in the afternoon on a Thursday, one week after
Thanksgiving.

Mr. HUBERT. How many pages of Exhibit No. 5 relate to notes made of the
interview of Mrs. Paine?

Mr. KANTOR. Twelve pages.

Mr. HUBERT. I think, with your permission, we ought to number these
pages. I will start off by numbering the first page as it appears in
the book as “1” on the bottom, and then the reverse of that “2”, and
I am putting these numerals in a circle, up to 12. I understand your
testimony to be that the notes which appear on pages Exhibit No. 5
which have now been numbered 1 through 12 all relate to the interview
of Mrs. Paine taken on the Thursday after Thanksgiving of 1963.

Mr. KANTOR. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I am marking the rest of the pages as follows, by
putting the numbers in a circle at the bottom, beginning with 13 up to
and including 17 and ask you the relationship of those notes or those
pages to any particular event.

Mr. KANTOR. They relate to notes, they are notes, that I made regarding
Mrs. Tippit, the wife of the police officer in Dallas who was slain.

Mr. HUBERT. When were those notes made?

Mr. KANTOR. They were made the day after I spoke with Mrs. Paine,
Friday.

Mr. HUBERT. Friday of what----

Mr. KANTOR. This would be eight days after Thanksgiving, yes. I believe
it was December 6th.

Mr. HUBERT. I show you a calendar of 1963 and ask you if it is not a
fact that Thanksgiving was on the 28th of November, that Thursday after
Thanksgiving would have been December 5th, and the day after that
would have been December 6th.

Mr. KANTOR. That is correct, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have just referred to notes appearing on pages 12
through----

Mr. KANTOR. It is notes on pages 13 through 17.

Mr. HUBERT. 13 through 17. Are there any other notes in the book?

Mr. KANTOR. No; none.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, why don’t you go ahead and read those interview
reports that you have in your hands right now and then we can talk
about them.

Mr. HUBERT. Let the record show I am placing my initials on the lower
right-hand corner of the second and subsequent pages of Exhibit 4.

Let the record show, also, that I have placed my initials on the inside
cover of Exhibit No. 5 and at the bottom of each page of Exhibit No. 5.

Let the record also show that I am placing my initials on each of the
pages of Exhibit No. 3 at the bottom, Exhibit No. 3 consisting of a
series of pages numbering 3-A through the alphabet and again until 3-RR.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you, Mr. Kantor, what has been marked
for purposes of identification as “Washington, D.C., Seth Kantor
Deposition, June 3, 1964, Exhibit No. 6.”

(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor Exhibit No. 6 for
identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. This purports to be a copy of a report prepared by FBI
Agent Vincent E. Drain, of an interview he conducted with you on
December 3, 1963, in Dallas. I will hand it to you and ask you if you
have had a chance to read it and whether you have any additions or
corrections that you would make to that report from the standpoint of
accuracy of the report.

Mr. KANTOR. No; it is complete, to the best of my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am also going to hand you what has been marked as
“Exhibit No. 7, Washington, D.C., Seth Kantor Deposition, June 3, 1964.”

(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor Exhibit No. 7 for
identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. This purports to be a copy of an interview report prepared
by Mr. Drain in connection with an interview conducted with you in
Dallas also on December 3.

Have you had a chance to read this report?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I have just looked it over, and it is, to the best of
my knowledge, accurate.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark another document as “Exhibit No. 8,
Washington, D.C., June 3, 1964, Seth Kantor Deposition.”

(The document referred to was marked Seth Kantor Exhibit No. 8 for
identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. This document purports to be a copy of an interview report
prepared by Special Agents Kaiser and Miller, of the Federal Bureau of
Investigation, the interview taking place with you on January 2, 1964
here in Washington. Have you had a chance to look that over?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any changes that you would make in that?

Mr. KANTOR. There was something I thought I saw in here.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Take your time.

Mr. KANTOR. All right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Meanwhile, for the record, that Exhibit No. 7 is a
document which consists of 5 pages and it is numbered consecutively at
the bottom 431 through pages 435.

Mr. KANTOR. I have seen something in here which made me think of a
letter I have received since the occasion of this interview with the
FBI.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Go ahead and tell us about it.

Mr. KANTOR. The letter was from Jack Ruby, from the county jail in
Dallas. I wrote him approximately at the end of January from my office,
on Scripps-Howard stationery, telling him that I had made a couple of
attempts to see him in Dallas, both in the city jail and in the county
jail, and had failed, and asked him if I could ask him some questions.
A letter postmarked February 2, I believe it was, in San Francisco,
was received by me then from Melvin Belli, who was Ruby’s attorney at
the time, thanking me for writing to Jack and saying that he had told
Jack to forward on any mail that came from reporters, and that Jack had
done the right thing and that he was sure--he being Belli--that I would
understand that Ruby could not comment before the trial.

Then I received a letter postmarked the next day which would have been
February 3d, from Ruby, from his Dallas county jail cell, telling me
he had forwarded on my letter to Belli and apologizing for having done
so but he was told to do that. And in the letter he made an offhanded
personal remark that he had liked to follow my stories in the Fort
Worth Press, which is a Scripps-Howard paper, and was in hopes of
seeing me again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you in your letter to Ruby made any reference to the
fact that you had seen him at Parkland Hospital on the 22d?

Mr. KANTOR. No; I did not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Belli in his letter to you make any reference to your
newspaper article?

Mr. KANTOR. No; he did not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it Ruby didn’t make any reference to it to you in
his letter?

Mr. KANTOR. No; he did not, and one of the factors prompting my letter
to him was this interview with the two FBI agents here in Washington,
because one of them had told me that the FBI talked to Ruby in his
jail cell and he had denied being in the hospital on the afternoon of
November 22d. This is really what I was angling for, although I didn’t
want to write that question directly to Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it not a fact that in the story that you had seen Jack
at the Parkland Hospital, had been made public before you wrote to Jack
Ruby, I think you said on February----

Mr. KANTOR. Late in January.

Mr. HUBERT. Late in January?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That story had been in the press for some considerable
time, isn’t that correct?

Mr. KANTOR. It appeared in the press the day after Ruby killed Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. I think the record should show that Exhibit No.
8 consists of 4 pages, numbered in sequence 163 through 167.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you at least one question in connection
with these interviews generally. Did the FBI agent who originally
interviewed you on December 3 tell you how he happened to come to
interview you?

Mr. KANTOR. He had learned about my statement of Ruby being in the
hospital through reading my story or through hearing about the story.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, is this something that he told you or is this an
inference that you have drawn?

Mr. KANTOR. No; he told me that. I know the agent in question, Vince
Drain.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I believe you told us yesterday that you were the only
Scripps-Howard reporter at Parkland Hospital at the time that you saw
Ruby and made the phone calls.

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, how many other Scripps-Howard reporters were there
with the White House entourage that originally went down to Dallas?

Mr. KANTOR. There was none besides myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many Scripps-Howard reporters who reported back to the
Washington office ultimately were in Dallas on the 22d, 23d, and 24th?

Mr. KANTOR. There was none besides myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So the only--you were the only representative of the
Scripps-Howard chain as an entity?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And any other reporters who may have been connected
with Scripps-Howard there were from newspapers affiliated with the
Scripps-Howard chain?

Mr. KANTOR. Yes; that is right. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of coverage or distribution were the stories
that you wrote on the 22d and 23d given by the Scripps-Howard chain?

Mr. KANTOR. They were widely used, I believe; virtually every paper in
the chain used the stories.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions, Mr. Hubert?

Mr. HUBERT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I have none. Do you have anything further that you would
want to say?

Mr. KANTOR. Nothing further.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much.

Mr. HUBERT. We will have those photostated and if you could call in
some time tomorrow we will see if we can’t arrange to get them to you,
or mail them, or do something.

Mr. KANTOR. If you don’t mind, I would like to pick them up, but wonder
if I could pick them up Friday.



TESTIMONY OF WILLIAM D. CROWE, JR.

The testimony of William D. Crowe, Jr., was taken at 2:30 p.m., on
June 2, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs.
Leon D. Hubert, Jr., and Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the
President’s Commission.


Mr. HUBERT. This is a deposition of Mr. William D. Crowe, Jr., who also
uses the professional or stage name of Bill DeMar.

Mr. Crowe, my name is Leon D. Hubert and I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel on the President’s Commission under
the provisions of Executive Order 11130 issued by President Johnson
on November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and
the rules and procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in
conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have
been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death
of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Crowe, the nature
of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the death of
Oswald or the relationship that there might have been between Oswald
and Ruby and any other pertinent facts that you may know about the
general inquiry. Now, Mr. Crowe, you appear today, I believe, by virtue
of a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of
the staff of the President’s Commission, is that correct?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive it?

Mr. CROWE. Friday; Friday, I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have been the 29th of May, is that correct?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice you are looking at an envelope. Is that the
envelope?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That it came in?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the post date on it?

Mr. CROWE. That is what I am looking for. It has no post date. The
thing is blank.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the date of the letter itself?

Mr. CROWE. May 28; so it must have been the 29th.

Mr. HUBERT. You think you received it on the 29th, last Friday. Is that
correct?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. Now would you please stand, sir, so I may
administer the oath. Raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that
the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. CROWE. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your name for the record, please, sir?

Mr. CROWE. William D. Crowe, Jr.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Crowe, I understand that you also have a stage or
professional name that you have been using for some time and still do
use, is that correct?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. What is that name?

Mr. CROWE. Bill DeMar.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, you have never actually legally changed your name from
William Crowe to Bill DeMar, have you?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And by legally changed your name, I mean a court proceeding
to change your name officially from Crowe to DeMar?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. This is purely a stage name?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, Mr. DeMar?

Mr. CROWE. Right now at 90 West 34th Street, Bayonne, N.J.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you, sir?

Mr. CROWE. Thirty-two.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you married?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been married?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you divorced?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you mind stating for the record who you were married to
and when, and the date of the divorce?

Mr. CROWE. Her maiden name was Golden Thompson.

Mr. HUBERT. T-h-o-m-p-s-o-n; is that correct?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you marry this lady?

Mr. CROWE. November 22, 1959, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. And where were you married?

Mr. CROWE. In Evansville, Ind.

Mr. HUBERT. Evansville. Is your----

Mr. CROWE. Home town.

Mr. HUBERT. That is where you were born and educated and reared, is
that correct?

Mr. CROWE. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. When were you divorced?

Mr. CROWE. Around, I think it was around, February of 1962.

Mr. HUBERT. And where?

Mr. CROWE. In Evansville, Ind.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you been married to anyone other than this lady?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any children?

Mr. CROWE. One.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the name of that child and how old is he?

Mr. CROWE. William D. Crowe, the 3d, and he is four and a half
approximately.

Mr. HUBERT. Has your wife remarried?

Mr. CROWE. Yes; she has.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the name of her husband?

Mr. CROWE. Larry Kuence.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do they live?

Mr. CROWE. In Evansville, I don’t know the address for sure, on the
north side some place.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?

Mr. CROWE. Entertainer.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been in that line of endeavor?

Mr. CROWE. Off and on for 15 years.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you were 32.

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. So you have been in the entertainment field since you were
17 years old?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. What educational background do you have?

Mr. CROWE. High school graduate.

Mr. HUBERT. And immediately after leaving high school, I suppose you
got into the entertainment business?

Mr. CROWE. No; well, yes. I started during right before the senior
year, and then I went into the service for 3 years after high school.

Mr. HUBERT. I see.

Mr. CROWE. In 1951.

Mr. HUBERT. So it was after you left the service that you entered the
entertainment field?

Mr. CROWE. I continued with the entertainment field. I did it while I
was in the service also.

Mr. HUBERT. You did it there also; I see. Have you ever had a partner
in any of your acts or entertainment endeavors?

Mr. CROWE. No; not really.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you give us by way of description what sort of
entertainment act you have done in the past?

Mr. CROWE. Primarily a ventriloquist; also do a little standup comedy,
impressions.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you name for the record some of the places that you
have played in--is that the professional term--or appeared in?

Mr. CROWE. Well, I have been over a great part of most of the United
States and around Germany, and Western Canada and Eastern Canada. Like
the T-Bone Supper Club in Wichita. Let’s see, the Larue Supper Club
in Indianapolis, the Orchid Club in Tulsa. Club dates in Seattle,
Washington, Atlanta, Georgia, New York.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I suppose that you have an agent, don’t you, who does
your booking for you?

Mr. CROWE. Several agents. Depending on what part of the country.

Mr. HUBERT. You are also a member of the----

Mr. CROWE. American Guild of Variety Artists.

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose they have a record actually of every show or
place that you have been don’t they?

Mr. CROWE. I would imagine possibly they do.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, have you developed any particular specialty of late?

Mr. CROWE. Well, I have several gimmicks, I call them, that I feature
in my vent act. That would be about all.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I think you were playing at the Carousel Club in
Dallas shortly before the death of President Kennedy, isn’t that
correct?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you ever been there before?

Mr. CROWE. Three times before.

Mr. HUBERT. You have. Would you state the times that you have been
there, just roughly the approximate times, and the approximate length
of each stay?

Mr. CROWE. Let’s see, about April of 1962 I was there for 2 weeks, and
then I was gone for about 7 weeks, came back for 3 weeks, and was out
for maybe a month. Came back for 4 weeks, was gone for about a year,
and 2 months, and came back for 6 weeks.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you come back to the Carousel the last time?

Mr. CROWE. About the 1st of November.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that booking done by yourself or some agent of yours?

Mr. CROWE. Well, it was more by myself but it was a club that belonged
to an agent of mine so I paid him a commission to keep on the interest.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say the club belonged to an agent of yours you
don’t mean that he owned the club?

Mr. CROWE. No; the agent booked it.

Mr. HUBERT. He owned the right to book you there, is that it?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. So you paid him a normal fee for booking at that place even
though you arranged to go yourself?

Mr. CROWE. Between Jack Ruby and myself, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any particular reason why you wanted to go back
to Jack Ruby’s club?

Mr. CROWE. I didn’t, but Jack can be pretty persuasive at times, and
because I had been there so many times before, and the agent said that
I would possibly go up to Kansas City but it wouldn’t be for a week or
more.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was that agent?

Mr. CROWE. Wayne Keller in St. Louis.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is he located?

Mr. CROWE. St. Louis.

Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.

Mr. CROWE. A week’s out of work you know, is a couple of hundred
dollars, so----

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you at the time that he advised you of that?

Mr. CROWE. At the T-Bone in Wichita.

Mr. HUBERT. All right. So when he told you that he had another booking
for you elsewhere, but it would be a week, what happened next?

Mr. CROWE. I told Jack I would go ahead and come down to his place.

Mr. HUBERT. Jack had contacted you at the T-Bone?

Mr. CROWE. He had called me at the T-Bone.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before? How long before you actually went to
Jack’s Carousel Club had he called you inviting you to come?

Mr. CROWE. Four days.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it arranged then as to how long your booking would be
there?

Mr. CROWE. No; nothing definite. I said 4 or 5 weeks.

Mr. HUBERT. You had no written contract, did you?

Mr. CROWE. I don’t recall whether I wrote the contract before I went
down or after I got there.

Mr. HUBERT. But there was a written contract?

Mr. CROWE. There was a contract, yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who would have a copy of that? Would you?

Mr. CROWE. I would have a copy of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have it in fact?

Mr. CROWE. Yes; but not on me.

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose it is a standard contract?

Mr. CROWE. Standard AGVA.

Mr. HUBERT. What is it?

Mr. CROWE. American Guild of Variety Artists.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the word you used?

Mr. CROWE. Standard AGVA.

Mr. HUBERT. Standard AGVA form. What was the agreed price?

Mr. CROWE. $182.50.

Mr. HUBERT. Per week?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you begin?

Mr. CROWE. It was about 2 weeks before that eventful weekend. That was
on the 22d.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the day of the week that you began. Perhaps
it would help you if you would look at this calendar of 1963, which--do
you have a calendar of 1963?

Mr. CROWE. I am not sure, I think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what day of the week you would normally
begin?

Mr. CROWE. Monday would be, the 11th.

Mr. HUBERT. Your thought is that you began on Monday, November 11, is
that correct?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Does the fact that it was Armed Services Day or Armistice
Day, as it used to be called, assist your recollection that it was that
day? I mean, is there any doubt about the fact----

Mr. CROWE. Was that Armistice Day?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, November 11.

Mr. CROWE. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, let me put it this way, is there any doubt in your
mind that that is the day you started, on the 11th?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How many telephone calls do you suppose you got from Ruby
in connection with this last engagement?

Mr. CROWE. Oh, maybe three.

Mr. HUBERT. Those would have been to the T-Bone Hotel at Wichita?

Mr. CROWE. No; there was no T-Bone Hotel.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the place?

Mr. CROWE. The T-Bone Club. It was at the motel where I was staying.

Mr. HUBERT. What motel was that?

Mr. CROWE. I think it was “El” something, I don’t recall. Right around
the corner there. It began with an “E”.

Mr. HUBERT. It was near the T-Bone Club, is that correct?

Mr. CROWE. Right. El Morocco maybe, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. When did the engagement which began on November 11, end in
fact?

Mr. CROWE. Right before Christmas, which was about, let’s see--do you
have a calendar again?

Mr. HUBERT. Here is a calendar of 1963 again. Let me put it this way:
Did your engagement last for the entire period that you contracted for?

Mr. CROWE. Longer.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. And your thought is that you left on the 21st of
December?

Mr. CROWE. Twenty-first.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us in general what contacts you had with Jack Ruby
during the period of November 11 through the 22d or the 22d of
November, to the day that the President was shot?

Mr. CROWE. Well, outside of seeing him in the club when he was there,
and going to breakfast with him once in awhile after working hours,
that was about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live in Dallas?

Mr. CROWE. At that time I was at the Palomino Hotel on Fort Worth
Avenue.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you choose that place yourself?

Mr. CROWE. Yes; I had stayed there previously.

Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand from your statement that your contacts with
Ruby were limited to a few breakfasts that you had with him?

Mr. CROWE. That is about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Otherwise, I suppose it would have been simply business
conversations, or were there any business conversations?

Mr. CROWE. The only thing, about the only thing Jack ever spoke of was
the club, one club or the other.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, on these occasions when you went to breakfast, what
did he discuss, if you recall?

Mr. CROWE. Business, money, the show itself, the band, the girls.

Mr. HUBERT. By the way, when you say breakfast, I assume you mean
the meal that you took after the club closed about 2 o’clock in the
morning, is that correct.

Mr. CROWE. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you normally go?

Mr. CROWE. There was no normal, whatever suited his fancy.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he discuss with you the twistboard operation that he
was interested in?

Mr. CROWE. No; he mentioned, I know he had one there that he was giving
away as a prize.

Mr. HUBERT. You were not the master of ceremonies, were you?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You were. In addition to the act you had, you were also
master of ceremonies?

Mr. CROWE. I introduced the other acts, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And then you did some acting yourself?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the names of some of the other employees or
performers at the Carousel?

Mr. CROWE. You want the performers or the employees?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, both. If you remember their names.

Mr. CROWE. Let’s see, at that time--at the time----

Mr. HUBERT. Of this last engagement.

Mr. CROWE. At the assassination because they had changed. At the time I
came there and the time I left there were different ones.

Mr. HUBERT. They changed just within that 11-day period?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, can you tell us those who were there when you first
came and when they left and then which others came on afterwards?

Mr. CROWE. Tammi True.

Mr. HUBERT. Did she remain the entire time you were there?

Mr. CROWE. No, no; she left a week after I was there.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why?

Mr. CROWE. No; her and Jack got into it is all I know.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean by that she had some sort of an argument?

Mr. CROWE. Yes; I would say.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Jada there then?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was she at the T-Bone Club?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who I mean when I say Jada, do you know who
that person is?

Mr. CROWE. I met her once but I have never worked with her.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you meet her?

Mr. CROWE. In Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Was she then working for Ruby?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall when you met her?

Mr. CROWE. Around November 30, maybe.

Mr. HUBERT. Of what year?

Mr. CROWE. At the same time I was there.

Mr. HUBERT. 1963?

Mr. CROWE. 1963.

Mr. HUBERT. You met her after the death of the President and after the
death of Oswald?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you meet her?

Mr. CROWE. I don’t remember the name of the club. It begins with an
“M,” upstairs private club, about 3 blocks from the Carousel.

Mr. HUBERT. She was playing there?

Mr. CROWE. No; she was shooting a film there.

Mr. HUBERT. What sort of a film was that?

Mr. CROWE. A film that Diamond Pictures was making.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what the subject of it was?

Mr. CROWE. A stripper in Dallas, I think.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you part of that film?

Mr. CROWE. I did a relief, a comedy relief segment.

Mr. HUBERT. That was about the 30th of November, you say?

Mr. CROWE. Approximately, I don’t know for sure.

Mr. HUBERT. It lasted only a few days, I take it?

Mr. CROWE. A couple of days I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. You had not met her before?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, prior to the President’s visit to Dallas, do you
recall having either discussed with Ruby the forthcoming visit or heard
Ruby say anything concerning it?

Mr. CROWE. No; and the time I had known him I had never recalled ever
having heard him discuss politics or anybody in it.

Mr. HUBERT. That means over this 2 or 3 years you knew him?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Hubert, if I can ask a question here.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me finish this phase of the questioning. What was the
general format of the show during the period from November 11 until the
22d, I believe. Will you describe to us briefly just how it operated,
and what went on?

Mr. CROWE. Well, I came on stage and opened the show.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any kind of opening music, for instance?

Mr. CROWE. I think we tried a show tune song but I never could sing
so I didn’t do it. I always backed out every time I got on stage, I
wouldn’t do it. I would start into it maybe and then I would quit and
fade out or something, I would chicken out.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the band, did the band play any particular type
of music to start off the show or to end it?

Mr. CROWE. Particular? Just, you know, introduction music.

Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, did they play any type of patriotic music?

Mr. CROWE. Patriotic music?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. By patriotic I mean music like America or----

Mr. CROWE. No, no; it is a jazz combo. They wouldn’t play----

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear of the shooting of the President
and where were you?

Mr. CROWE. I was in the Palomino Hotel and I first heard of it about 4
or so, 4:30.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix the time?

Mr. CROWE. That is when I woke up.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you hear it, did someone tell you?

Mr. CROWE. On transistor radio.

Mr. HUBERT. No one had called you?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do after hearing it?

Mr. CROWE. I did what other people did, I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. And that is what?

Mr. CROWE. Cried.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to anyone?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anyone? Put it this way, who was the first
person you saw or spoke to after that?

Mr. CROWE. Well, let’s see. I woke up, turned on the radio, heard the
news. After composure, I think I went down to the shopping center, had
a bite to eat, came back, and got dressed to go down to the club and
then didn’t feel like working, I didn’t think I should, but nobody had
called me not to, and I got down there, and there was a sign on it, out
front, you know, says “closed.”

Mr. HUBERT. What time was that?

Mr. CROWE. Oh, about 9, I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. No one from the club had called you at all?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Andy Armstrong?

Mr. CROWE. Yes; Andrew Armstrong. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He did not call you?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Ruby did not?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. So you just went on your way, I take it?

Mr. CROWE. If they had called me I wouldn’t have gotten dressed and
went down there. No; I went down there and they had a sign on the front
that said closed and I was relieved and glad. I didn’t think they
should be open anyway. I drove around the block and the other two clubs
were closed. So I went back home.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do, go to bed?

Mr. CROWE. I think I sat and read maybe.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you see anyone or talk to anyone after returning
to your apartment?

Mr. CROWE. I don’t know whether it was that night or the night after
I called a friend of mine’s house, Tom Palmer. I spoke with his wife
about the incident.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Jack Ruby at any time between the
assassination of the President, and the time Oswald was shot?

Mr. CROWE. I never spoke to or seen Jack Ruby again from Thursday night.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did not talk to him by phone?

Mr. CROWE. No; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know George Senator?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Ralph Paul?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know a man by the name of Breck Wall----

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was staying at the Adolphus?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Joe Peterson?

Mr. CROWE. He was a musician, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. You said you knew Armstrong. Did you know Larry Crafard?

Mr. CROWE. I don’t recall the name.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a young man that seemed to be working
around the club there and sleeping on the premises?

Mr. CROWE. Yes; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you know him, by what name did you know him?

Mr. CROWE. I don’t recall, I believe his name was Larry. I didn’t know
what his last name was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see or speak to any one of those persons during the
period from the time the President was shot until the time Oswald was
shot?

Mr. CROWE. Who all did you call off again?

Mr. HUBERT. George Senator, Ralph Paul, Breck Wall, Joe Peterson, Andy
Armstrong, and Larry Crafard?

Mr. CROWE. Andrew Armstrong is about the only one I can think of.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you talk to him?

Mr. CROWE. Let’s see, I called--maybe that wasn’t--Saturday, Sunday
morning, there wasn’t much time, it must have been after Oswald was
shot before I even spoke to Andrew.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, as I understand it then, there was no contact of any
sort whatsoever between you and any of those persons I mentioned, and
I will mention them again so that the record can be straight: George
Senator, Ralph Paul, Breck Wall, Joe Peterson, and Larry Crafard, there
was no contact between you and Andrew Armstrong, no contact between you
whatsoever, between the time the President was shot and the time Oswald
was shot, of any sort whatsoever?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you learn that the show would not go on on Saturday?

Mr. CROWE. Well, I didn’t figure it would go on on Saturday. I wasn’t
going to go down there until they called me, or somebody called me, and
they knew where I was, and if I did not get a call, why I wasn’t going.

Mr. HUBERT. When was payday, when were you supposed to be paid?

Mr. CROWE. Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you make any inquiry Sunday about your pay?

Mr. CROWE. No; there was nobody to ask.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you mentioned that you did speak to Armstrong. When
did you do so?

Mr. CROWE. Monday; I believe Monday evening he called me on the phone
and told me to come to work.

Mr. HUBERT. Come to work on Monday evening?

Mr. CROWE. I didn’t figure I would go in until Tuesday, I figured they
would be out for a while. I think there was something in the Saturday
paper that Jack Ruby had put, stated immediately that the club would be
closed for 3 days.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see that yourself?

Mr. CROWE. Yes; I believe I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Eva Grant?

Mr. CROWE. The name sounds familiar.

Mr. HUBERT. Well----

Mr. CROWE. Isn’t that Jack Ruby’s sister?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; it is. Do you know her?

Mr. CROWE. Yes; in a way. I met her.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever been to the Vegas Club?

Mr. CROWE. Vegas Club; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you been there?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever play there?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. As an artist?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go there during the last engagement we have been
talking about which commenced on November 11?

Mr. CROWE. Yes, yes; I did. About the week before, I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go there on more than one occasion or just once?

Mr. CROWE. Maybe twice.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you go there with?

Mr. CROWE. Jack and a couple of girls from the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the girls’ names?

Mr. CROWE. Little Lynn and there was another one, it is a redhead. Very
good dancer, too. There was a joke about her name, something to do with
Christmas.

Mr. HUBERT. That would be one occasion. Do you remember who you went
with on the other?

Mr. CROWE. Well, I always went with Jack but I don’t know whether there
was anybody else--there probably was, but I don’t recall who was along
the second time.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when you first made any announcement
concerning the possibility, at least, that Oswald was in the Carousel?

Mr. CROWE. Sunday afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you make the observation to and how did it come
about?

Mr. CROWE. To a television reporter, I guess it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know his name?

Mr. CROWE. A newspaperman.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the names of these people?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you approach them or did they approach you?

Mr. CROWE. Both. I had just parked my car at the garage right aside of
the club because I went down there to see about my equipment which was
in the club and I had known, from things I had heard, Jack had done
what he did. I was concerned about my equipment, you know, whether I
would get it out.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was it that you went to the club?

Mr. CROWE. Around noon, I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it would be about a half hour after Oswald was
shot?

Mr. CROWE. About a half hour after Oswald was shot.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you hear that Oswald was shot?

Mr. CROWE. I was in the office of the motel and it was on television.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. Then you became concerned about your equipment and
you went immediately down?

Mr. CROWE. Down to the club.

Mr. HUBERT. And you think it was about noon when you got there. Did you
have a key to get in?

Mr. CROWE. No, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get in?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you expect to get in?

Mr. CROWE. Well, I don’t know. I had called down there, and the line
was busy, so I figured there was somebody there. But when I----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you knock when you went there?

Mr. CROWE. No; I never even got that far.

Mr. HUBERT. Tell us what happened?

Mr. CROWE. When I drove into the garage a newspaperman pulled up in
front.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the Nichols Garage, the garage right next to----

Mr. CROWE. Right next, I don’t know what the name is.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know a man by the name of Hugh Reed who ran the
place? All right, sir, you drove into the garage?

Mr. CROWE. And a newspaperman drove up front, and television drove up
across the street, and the newspaperman, I think, and somebody else,
and they started to ask the garage attendant if he knew where Jack
Ruby lived, and I came forward and I said I knew where he lived, at
least I thought I did, but I didn’t know he had moved, so I didn’t know
actually.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case you gave them an address?

Mr. CROWE. Well, I didn’t know the address but I knew how to get there.

Mr. HUBERT. I see.

Mr. CROWE. And I went out with some newspaper reporter in his
Volkswagen and drove out to the apartment out by the zoo where he used
to stay.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you found he was not there?

Mr. CROWE. Not there, he had moved.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened then?

Mr. CROWE. I went to the television station, the newspaperman drove me
by the television station, and the television man who followed us out,
wanted me to stop by and talk to them.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, what did the television man want to talk to you about,
do you know? Or what did you talk to him about?

Mr. CROWE. Well, they had asked me who I was, and what I had to do with
the club. I told them my name, what my job was, and I had mentioned
that it was quite a series of coincidences as far as I was concerned
because I had been in Washington during the inaugural of the President
and then being in Dallas during the assassination of the President,
and then having what I had thought or recalled, to have possibly seen
Oswald in the club the week before and then working for the man who
shot Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, who did you mention that series of coincidences to?

Mr. CROWE. The newspaperman and the television man.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention it to the newspaperman first when you were
driving out to what you thought was Ruby’s house?

Mr. CROWE. No. Another newspaperman, the one who drove up in the car, I
mean the radio man.

Mr. HUBERT. That was after you had left the place that you thought was
Ruby’s house. In other words, what I am trying to get is the time that
you first mentioned this series of coincidences, and the person to whom
you mentioned it?

Mr. CROWE. At the front door of the club.

Mr. HUBERT. That was before you left to go to the apartment?

Mr. CROWE. Before I left to go.

Mr. HUBERT. Did----

Mr. CROWE. To me it was just a series of coincidences, I never even
thought anything about it.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the reaction of the newspaperman when you told him
that you thought you had seen Ruby--I mean, Oswald in Ruby’s club?

Mr. CROWE. Well, they got all excited and picked that out and started
snow-balling it, and that was about it.

Mr. HUBERT. What are the facts concerning your possibly having seen
Oswald in that club?

Mr. CROWE. Well, I wouldn’t say there was any, just facts. Like I
stated before, the face seemed familiar as some faces do, and I had
associated him with a patron that I had seen in the club a week before.
That was about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t there some aspect of the story that had to do with
a memory act that was supposed to be your specialty or one of your
specialties?

Mr. CROWE. Well, it is one of the bits that I did to fill time, but----

Mr. HUBERT. What are the facts concerning that?

Mr. CROWE. They asked me in what--how I had seen him in the club, and
I said I thought I had used him as one of the people that was--that I
would use him in my memory bit.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your memory bit. Would you describe it, please,
sir?

Mr. CROWE. I have 20 people cross the front, those that I can see by
the stage there, and call out an object and then I have them raise
their hand at random and I call the object back to them. That was it.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there a gimmick to this or does it----

Mr. CROWE. Association.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it is a special form of training; do you
have to train yourself to associate?

Mr. CROWE. To a small degree.

Mr. HUBERT. What mental process do you actually go through actually to
accomplish this?

Mr. CROWE. What system do I use?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CROWE. Or how is it done?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes. I don’t want to get your professional secrets.

Mr. CROWE. That is what you are asking. [Laughter.]

Mr. HUBERT. On the other hand, what I am trying to get at is whether or
not your memory bit, as you call it, would enable you to recognize or
remember faces more than the ordinary person?

Mr. CROWE. No. No, my memory actually is no better, maybe it is as good
as the ordinary persons. I know the system which is Spencer Thornton’s
to use in this memory bit and I concentrate on using it, and after it
is over I have forgotten.

Mr. HUBERT. I am sure you recall that the press shortly after 24th
played up, snowballed, I think perhaps, as you called it, the fact
that your memory act or memory gimmick as you now call it, gave you
a special expertise, if it is called that, or special ability, in
remembering faces that you had seen. Is that a fact or not? I mean, is
it a fact that your act does give you that extra abnormal ability or
not?

Mr. CROWE. No; it does not give me anything special. Using a gimmick
or a method to do the memory stunt and that is it. They built up the
memory thing and they built up the bit of having seen Oswald in there,
and I never stated definitely, positively, and they said that I did,
and all in all, what they had in the paper was hardly even close to
what I told them.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you tell them?

Mr. CROWE. Exactly as I have just stated to you.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don’t know that I followed you about what exactly
you remembered about Oswald. I think perhaps we can better repeat it
then. What did you, in fact, irrespective of what you stated to them,
what did you, in fact, remember then about seeing Oswald in Ruby’s club?

Mr. CROWE. I had--it seemed to me that his face was familiar, and I
had possibly seen him in the club the week before and used him in
association with the memory routine that I did.

Mr. HUBERT. You told that to the press?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And you told it actually as one of four events which you
have described as a series of coincidences?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that later you were shown a picture of Oswald, were
you not?

Mr. CROWE. I don’t recall that. I had seen a picture in the newspaper.
But I don’t recall being shown a picture.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall being interviewed by the FBI and Secret
Service?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. At that time, didn’t they display a picture of Oswald to
you?

Mr. CROWE. They may have, I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what your recollection concerning the
identification of Oswald in Ruby’s club was when you spoke to the FBI
and the agents of the Secret Service?

Mr. CROWE. That I had thought possibly I had seen Oswald the week
before.

Mr. HUBERT. By the week before you mean the week commencing on the 11th?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you now or have you ever been able to fix the time of
that possible event more closely than just simply the week before?

Mr. CROWE. No, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Now when did it first occur to you that you had seen Oswald
in the club?

Mr. CROWE. When I saw his picture in the paper Saturday or Sunday
morning, I guess it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you convey your impression to anyone?

Mr. CROWE. Not before the radio newsman in front of the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there any reason why you did not?

Mr. CROWE. I had seen no one before then. Hardly anybody to speak to.

Mr. HUBERT. I am thinking from this point of view. You tell me that you
had on Saturday come to some tentative conclusion that possibly you had
seen this man in the Carousel Club the week before.

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did it occur to you that that information could be valuable
to the police?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. And you spoke to no one at all from the time you woke up on
the afternoon of the 22d at 4 o’clock, until you met these radio people
in front of the club?

Mr. CROWE. Oh, yes, I had been out at Tom Palmer’s house that Saturday
night.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that the only person you saw or conversed with?

Mr. CROWE. Actually, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you mention to him that you had thought you had seen or
it was possible that you had seen Oswald?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why not, because may I suggest to you that
it would have been quite a topic of conversation. Also the coincidences
that you mentioned were almost there at that time?

Mr. CROWE. I never drew up the series of coincidences until Sunday
morning, because the fourth coincidence didn’t happen until then.

Mr. HUBERT. But the third one had that is to say--I guess it is the
second one, the shooting of the President by Oswald.

Mr. CROWE. Yes; which was only two.

Mr. HUBERT. And your recognition that you had seen Oswald or thought
you had, or it was possible that you had, in the club the week before.

Mr. CROWE. And I never put them together until Sunday morning.

Mr. HUBERT. But you tell us now that you have a distinct recollection
of having thought to yourself when you saw Oswald, Oswald’s picture in
the paper that “I have seen this man and I saw him, I think, in the
Carousel Club last week.” Although you didn’t convey that to anybody?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. That actually occurred, that thought went through your mind?

Mr. CROWE. I would say so, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it at all possible that it first crystallized in your
mind as a conscious thought when you were speaking to the radio people?

Mr. CROWE. I thought of it the whole series of coincidences, and all of
it together when I was driving from my hotel to the club that Sunday
afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you mean to tell me then that prior to that time----

Mr. CROWE. I never gave it much thought.

Mr. HUBERT. You had not specifically thought that Oswald might have
been in the club?

Mr. CROWE. Specifically, I never gave it too much thought. The face was
familiar, and that was about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to say that if you had actually thought on
Saturday that you had seen the killer of the President in the Carousel
Club the week before that you would, might, have mentioned that fact to
Mr. Palmer whom you visited on Saturday night?

Mr. CROWE. Not necessarily. We discussed the assassination of the
President in brief, and then they taught me how to play poker and
we didn’t talk about it. I didn’t care to talk about it. It was too
unpleasant for me.

Mr. HUBERT. What I am trying to get at is whether or not this thought
that you ultimately expressed to the newspapermen shortly after noon,
I take it, on the 24th, whether that thought actually existed as a
conscious mental process prior to that time or not?

Mr. CROWE. Not strongly, no. Just as a passing thought on and off, only
after I had heard that Ruby had shot Oswald and I started summing up
the coincidences, you know, and thinking of Oswald’s picture in the
paper, and seeing it again, and putting it all together.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have occasion to call a man in Evansville, Ind., I
think, a friend of yours on a newspaper that day?

Mr. CROWE. David Hoy.

Mr. HUBERT. The day before?

Mr. CROWE. No; I said David Hoy.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that?

Mr. CROWE. Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that before or after you told the newspaper people
about the coincidences?

Mr. CROWE. Before.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you call from?

Mr. CROWE. The hotel, I mean the motel. The motel I had just moved into
that noon.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand you to say that you saw, actually witnessed
the television film of Ruby shooting Oswald?

Mr. CROWE. No; I never said that.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you find out?

Mr. CROWE. I was in the office checking into the motel when it came on
TV and I had heard it.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. When did you speak to Hoy?

Mr. CROWE. Oh, a couple minutes right after.

Mr. HUBERT. Why did you do so?

Mr. CROWE. Well, because he was in news and a friend of mine, you know,
and I figured he would be interested in knowing if he had heard over
the teletype or something.

Mr. HUBERT. So that actually the crystallization of these four
coincidences came sooner than the time that you met the radio people in
front of the club?

Mr. CROWE. That is what I said. From the time I was driving from the
motel to the club.

Mr. HUBERT. And you placed the call from the motel?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you called Hoy prior to?

Mr. CROWE. The crystallization of these ideas and coincidences.

Mr. HUBERT. Why did you call him then?

Mr. CROWE. Because Oswald had just been shot.

Mr. HUBERT. At that time you told me the series of coincidences had not
yet crystallized because they crystallized you said a moment ago after
this call?

Mr. CROWE. That is right.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, then what was the purpose of calling Hoy?

Mr. CROWE. Because Oswald had just been shot.

Mr. HUBERT. And solely for that purpose?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact though, you did mention to Hoy, didn’t
you, that you thought you had seen Oswald in the club?

Mr. CROWE. Not on that call.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not?

Mr. CROWE. Not until after. I called after that. I talked to him about
three or four times that day.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean you talked to him three or four times after the
shooting of Oswald?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. The first call, therefore, within a couple of minutes after
you heard the news on TV was simply to advise him that Oswald had been
shot?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did not at that time tell him that you thought you
might have seen Oswald in the club?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Your purpose, you stated, for calling Hoy the first time
then was simply to advise him of a fact, to wit, that Oswald had been
shot?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it to advise him of the fact or to converse with him
about it?

Mr. CROWE. Well, him being a newsman you know call him and tell him
about it if he hadn’t heard about it already.

Mr. HUBERT. Didn’t it occur to you that this news event was going all
over the country simultaneously?

Mr. CROWE. Well, I knew it was in Dallas but I didn’t know whether it
was in Evansville or not.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know Hoy?

Mr. CROWE. Whether he was watching it on television or whether he was
even watching television.

Mr. HUBERT. How well do you know Hoy?

Mr. CROWE. Very well.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever called him before to give him news of this
sort?

Mr. CROWE. No; I never had any news of this sort to give him.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you childhood friends or something of that sort?

Mr. CROWE. No; I met him--I knew of him and he knew of me but we
actually really first met about 1958, I suppose.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you quite certain that you did not speak to Hoy on the
first call about your impression that Oswald might have been in the
Carousel the week prior?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. So that it is possible that you may have told him that on
the very first call?

Mr. CROWE. No; I mean no, I had not mentioned that to him on the first
call. I have heard David Hoy state to others in front of me that I was
the one that called him to tell him about Jack Ruby and what he was
like and working with him. But that is all he has ever said. He has
never said that I had called him and told him that I had seen Oswald in
the club the week before, because I hadn’t. I hadn’t mentioned that to
him until later on in the afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to a man by the name of Dale Burgess on that
day who was with the radio station, I believe, or some news media in
Evansville?

Mr. CROWE. I don’t recall the name. I spoke to a newspaperman in
Evansville.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was that?

Mr. CROWE. I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. When?

Mr. CROWE. That same Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the time?

Mr. CROWE. No; I don’t. It would have had to have been, well, in the
late afternoon, I guess.

Mr. HUBERT. Is Evansville on central standard time or eastern time?

Mr. CROWE. Central.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the time of your second call to Mr. Hoy?

Mr. CROWE. I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, relative to the events which were taking place,
considering that I think you said it was about noon, well, it was about
11:30 when you first called him and then you went down to the club----

Mr. CROWE. And then went to the----

Mr. HUBERT. Were interviewed by the newsmen and went to what you
thought was Ruby’s house and came back.

Mr. CROWE. Yes; and then to the television station.

Mr. HUBERT. Television station and made a statement?

Mr. CROWE. Was interviewed there, and then went back to the motel I
guess, so that would be----

Mr. HUBERT. Was it at that time that you called Hoy?

Mr. CROWE. I guess it would be about maybe three.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the purpose of calling Hoy the second time?

Mr. CROWE. To--I don’t remember whether I did call him or he called
me. I know I spoke to him. Anyway, I told him about the series of
coincidences.

Mr. HUBERT. And that was the first time you had told him about that?

Mr. CROWE. That was the first time; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that before or after you spoke to the other newsman
from Evansville whose name you couldn’t remember?

Mr. CROWE. I would say before.

Mr. HUBERT. Then after you had talked to Hoy the second time is when
you spoke to the newsman from Evansville?

Mr. CROWE. Right. I think he had the newsman call me.

Mr. HUBERT. And you are not certain whether Hoy called you or you
called Hoy?

Mr. CROWE. No. There were about 3 or 4 calls going out----

Mr. HUBERT. Were you present, where did this second call take place
from, where were you when you made the second call?

Mr. CROWE. Right at the motel.

Mr. HUBERT. You say there were some more calls that day between you and
Hoy?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What were they about?

Mr. CROWE. He had called me once, and said that the American News, I
think, or the American Broadcasting, the word American comes to my
mind, had suggested that he tell me to make myself scarce or to hide
out or to move and let my whereabouts not be known.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why you should take such action?

Mr. CROWE. He said that it had been expressed to him that my life would
be in danger.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you why he thought or he had heard that your
life might be in danger?

Mr. CROWE. Because I had mentioned about seeing Oswald in the club.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say who would be interested at all in killing you
for that reason?

Mr. CROWE. He didn’t know. He was just expressing what he said he had
heard from another news media. And maybe they were thought friends of
Jack’s, you know, or I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Well now, you made, I think, a previous statement both to
the FBI and--I think you gave an affidavit in Dallas--to the Secret
Service attested by a notary public--no, by Mr. John Joe Howlett,
special agent of the Secret Service. For purposes of identification, I
am going to mark these two documents which I am going to show you in a
moment as follows to wit, first of all, the FBI report dated November
24, or rather which purports to be a report on an interview with you
on November 24th by FBI Agents Robert Lish and Emory Morton. For the
purpose of identification I am going to mark this document on the
right-hand margin as follows: “Washington, D.C., June 2, 1964, Exhibit
No. 1, deposition of William D. Crowe, Jr.”, signing my name below
that, the document consisting of one page only. And another document
which purports to be an affidavit given by you on November 25 at 1 p.m.
attested by John Joe Howlett, special agent of the U.S. Secret Service
with Pauline Churchill as a witness. For purposes of identification I
am marking that document as follows, to wit, “Washington, D.C., June
2, 1964, Exhibit No. 2, Deposition of William D. Crowe, Jr.”, and I am
signing my name below on that.

(The documents referred to were marked Crowe Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 for
identification.)

Mr. Crowe, I wish you would read both of these documents with this in
mind, that I am going to ask you in a moment whether these documents
represent the truth or whether there are any changes or corrections
that should be made in them, and so forth. So if you would look at them
and you can make notes, if you wish on this pad or just make little
check marks if you see anything that represents what is now considered
by you to be not true. We will go into those matters after you have had
a chance to read those documents.

Mr. CROWE. Those are it; no changes.

Mr. HUBERT. You have examined the two documents which have been
marked for identification as Exhibits Nos. 1 and 2 relating to your
deposition; and I understand you now to say that those documents
represent the truth as you know it, is that correct?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, Exhibit No. 2 is your own affidavit.

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I assume that you signed it--I mean you read it before you
signed it?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Exhibit No. 1 on the other hand is a report of an interview
which you have not seen before, I take it, and I specifically ask you
if such is a correct representation of the inquiry?

Mr. CROWE. Yes; these are the questions, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, will you tell us what is your present recollection
concerning whether Oswald was in the Carousel Club during the week
preceding the death of the President?

Mr. CROWE. Would you state the first part of the question again?

Mr. HUBERT. Would you give us your present recollection concerning
whether Lee Harvey Oswald was in the Carousel Club on the week
preceding the death of the President?

Mr. CROWE. From what I recall, the face appeared familiar and I
possibly saw Lee Harvey Oswald in the club the week before.

Mr. HUBERT. Were the lighting conditions in the club such that you
could have seen him?

Mr. CROWE. To some extent. If he was sitting right at the foot of the
stage.

Mr. HUBERT. If not, that is if he were not sitting right at the foot of
the stage, then what?

Mr. CROWE. Then I wouldn’t have used him and I wouldn’t have seen him.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your act required that you use the people
up front in the first place?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. And secondly, the lighting was such that you couldn’t have
seen him if he were not in the first row; right?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. So that whomever you saw you thought and think might have a
resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald must have been in the first row?

Mr. CROWE. Right. I might say this: Bill Willis, the drummer in the
band at the club, said he seemed to remember Lee Harvey Oswald sitting
in the front row on Thursday night right in the corner of the stage and
the runway.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get this from Willis himself?

Mr. CROWE. Right. But I wouldn’t make that statement myself. But then I
don’t recall the night or the exact spot.

Mr. HUBERT. I would like to show you a number of pictures which I am
not going to give identifying numbers for this deposition since they
have already been given identification numbers, but, for example, I now
hand to you four pictures, the first two that I am going to call out
being really a series of pictures--no, the first one, I am sorry, being
a series of pictures, and the other three being individual pictures.
These have previously been identified as Exhibits Nos. 5212, 5221,
5206, and 5205 in the deposition of C. L. Crafard, taken in Washington,
D.C., on April 10, 1964.

I am going to ask you to look at these pictures and see if in any of
them you see anybody that resembles the man that you may have seen
there and who might look like Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. CROWE. When were these taken?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I don’t know. I would just like to ask you to examine
them and see if there is anybody in there that looks like the man you
used in your memory act and who was in the front row, and who you think
looked like Lee Harvey Oswald. And whom you said may have been in the
Carousel Club during the week prior to the death of the President?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You have said no after examining the picture which has been
previously identified as No. 5212 of the deposition of Crafard. Now,
you are looking at the picture which has been identified as Exhibit
No. 5221 of the deposition of C. L. Crafard, and I ask you the same
question as to that picture?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, your answer no is in response to the question
relative to Exhibit No. 5221, deposition of Crafard. Would you look
at the next picture, please, which has been identified previously as
Exhibit No. 5206

Mr. CROWE. And all backs of heads.

Mr. HUBERT. In the deposition of Crafard. I am sorry, I didn’t get your
answer?

Mr. CROWE. I say all backs of heads. He kind of favors it.

Mr. HUBERT. You are saying “he” and pointing. To whom are you pointing
in the picture?

Mr. CROWE. I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean describe it by way of position.

Mr. CROWE. Well, he is standing on stage.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it correct to say he is almost in the middle of that
picture?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that the microphone is right behind him?

Mr. CROWE. Right behind him.

Mr. HUBERT. He seems to have his sleeves halfway rolled up his arm?

Mr. CROWE. Yes; got a cigarette in his right hand.

Mr. HUBERT. That he seems to be leaning over a bit?

Mr. CROWE. And leaning forward.

Mr. HUBERT. Does that person resemble the person that you think you saw
in the Carousel Club the week prior to the death of the President?

Mr. CROWE. No; I wouldn’t say that. I say he favors.

Mr. HUBERT. Favors whom?

Mr. CROWE. Oswald. But I don’t recall him as being the one that I saw.

Mr. HUBERT. You think the man you just talked about in Crafard Exhibit
No. 5206 is not the man that you have been referring to as possibly
Oswald in your previous statements to the FBI, to the press, and so
forth?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. But that he does bear some resemblance to him?

Mr. CROWE. Right. I could be wrong.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you look at----

Mr. CROWE. Oh----

Mr. HUBERT. Exhibit No. 5205 of the deposition of C. L. Crafard, and I
ask you to examine that picture with the same purpose in mind.

Mr. CROWE. Yes, the second person in the foreground has some similarity
to Oswald, doesn’t he?

Mr. HUBERT. You are talking about the man who is just left of center in
the lower quadrant of that photo?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. As to whom there is pointing a little pen written arrow; is
that correct?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your comment as to that man, with reference to the
possibility that he is the man you saw a week before the President was
shot, in the Carousel Club, and who took some part in your memory act?

Mr. CROWE. Well, I wouldn’t say that he was the man I saw.

Mr. HUBERT. What comment do you have to make about him then?

Mr. CROWE. He does favor Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather that your comment as to the man in the picture
identified as Exhibit No. 5205 is substantially the same as your
comment made with reference to the man in Crafard Exhibit No. 5206, is
that correct?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it stronger or weaker, that is to say, do you think the
resemblance to Oswald is stronger in one picture than it is in the
other?

Mr. CROWE. I would say stronger in Crafard Exhibit No. 5205. He is not
smiling.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, as to the man you have pointed out in Crafard Exhibits
Nos. 5205 and 5206, do you recall ever having seen him in the Carousel
before?

Mr. CROWE. As to him personally, I couldn’t say for sure. The clothes
are not familiar to me.

Mr. HUBERT. How was the man dressed who took part in your memory act
that you think might have been Oswald?

Mr. CROWE. I have no idea as to how he was dressed.

Mr. HUBERT. Your statements concerning the possibility it was Oswald
therefore was based entirely on the facial----

Mr. CROWE. The face alone.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course, you never saw Oswald in person, that is to say
unless it was Oswald in the club?

Mr. CROWE. Yes; I never met him.

Mr. HUBERT. Your identification of the man in the club and the
possibility he was Oswald is based, therefore, upon pictures which
appeared in the paper and which the police exhibited to you, or the
FBI, is that correct?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection now or have you ever had
any recollection at any time of the position of the person who might
have been Oswald in your memory act relative to other people. Do you
understand what I mean? You know he had to be in the first row. Have
you any recollection or have you ever had any, as to whether he was
center, the left, or the right or what?

Mr. CROWE. No; they have three runways running out from the stage, and
the customers are seated along and around the runways, and they can
either be alone or with somebody, you would never know, you had no way
of telling.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recollect whether the man who might have been
Oswald was alone or was with someone else?

Mr. CROWE. No; you can’t tell the way they are seated.

Mr. HUBERT. By the way, with reference to those four pictures
identified as Exhibits Nos. 5212, 5221, 5205, and 5206 in the
deposition of C. L. Crafard, are you able to state that you recognize
those pictures generally as being the interior of the Carousel Club?

Mr. CROWE. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your present thought as to the possibility that the
man that you had previously spoken about in the pictures identified as
Exhibits Nos. 5205 and 5206 of the deposition of Crafard, may have been
the man that you stated was a part of your memory act a week prior to
the death of the President?

Mr. CROWE. It is a possibility.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think it is a greater possibility that from the
pictures you have seen of Oswald that it was Oswald than that it was
the man in the pictures, Exhibits Nos. 5205 and 5206?

Mr. CROWE. No; I wouldn’t say it was greater or any less.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, having seen the pictures of Oswald and
having seen the pictures of the man in five, Exhibits Nos. 5206 and
5205, your thought is that it could have been either?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. That you do not favor the identification of one over the
other in terms of strength of identification?

Mr. CROWE. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any sums of money or any kind of recompense
for any story or appearance you may have made concerning this matter of
your having possibly seen Oswald in the Carousel?

Mr. CROWE. Definitely not.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you anything else, Mr. Crowe, that you would like to
add?

Mr. CROWE. I was just taking a breath to say that the only reason why
Oswald was mentioned and thought of was because of the possibility
of being or that I thought he was one of a part of a series of
coincidences. And the coincidences was the only thing that I had in
mind.

Mr. HUBERT. All right.

Now, Mr. Crowe, neither I nor Mr. Griffin have ever interviewed you
before the commencement of this deposition, is that correct?

Mr. CROWE. That is correct, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say all of the examination or conversation or
contact between us has been in this room and while the reporter was
recording it, is that correct?

Mr. CROWE. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, thank you very much.



TESTIMONY OF CHARLES BATCHELOR

The testimony of Charles Batchelor was taken at 1 p.m., on July 13,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant
attorney general of Texas, was present.


Mr. HUBERT. Chief Batchelor, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of
the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29,
1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with
that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you, among others.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Chief Batchelor, the nature of the inquiry
today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and
any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now Chief, I understand that you appeared today by virtue of a general
request made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of
the staff of the President’s Commission.

Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day
written notice prior to the taking of any deposition, but the rules
adopted by the Commission also provide that you may waive that if you
wish, and I ask you now if you are willing to waive the 3-day notice?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you then stand and raise your right hand? Do you
solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?

Chief BATCHELOR. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Chief Batchelor, your deposition has already been taken,
and therefore I will omit the usual questions identifying you and who
you are and so forth.

There are certain other areas which we wish to cover, or areas which we
wish to clarify, and hence the purpose of this subsequent deposition.

Do you recall what instructions, if any, you gave to Captain Talbert
with regard to any type of security measures set up or to be set up?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don’t recall that I gave Talbert any specific
instructions.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what security instructions, I mean security
measures were taken when you first arrived at the Dallas Police
Department relative to the transfer of Oswald on Sunday, November 24?

Chief BATCHELOR. Well, as I believe I stated in my previous deposition,
when I arrived there I parked my car in the basement and shortly, just
moments after I arrived, Chief Stevenson arrived. We walked into the
city hall from the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time that was, sir?

Chief BATCHELOR. Somewhere around 8 in the morning. We noticed a TV
camera in the hallway leading from the vestibule of the basement into
the garage of the basement, and we commented that this was going to
have to be moved. We went on upstairs to the office.

Mr. HUBERT. You commented?

Chief BATCHELOR. To Chief Stevenson. We went upstairs, and shortly
thereafter Chief Curry arrived, and he had noticed this camera too, and
we discussed it and said we would have to get it moved. There was no
one around it. It was just sitting there.

Mr. HUBERT. This was in what you call the jail corridor?

Chief BATCHELOR. Just outside the jail corridor.

Mr. HUBERT. On the ramp side of the swinging doors?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; we went back--we came, after discussing this with
Chief Curry, and he told us we better go down and take a look and see
what we were going to need in the way of security--we went downstairs
and gave instructions, I believe, to the jail supervisor that whoever
had that camera, when they showed up, to tell them they would have to
move it.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that before or after the decision was made that the
city police would move Oswald rather than the sheriff’s office?

Chief BATCHELOR. Well, Chief Stevenson and I went into the basement on
two occasions seeing about the layout down there. I believe that when I
told the jail supervisor to get that camera moved, that this was on the
first occasion and was before, I believe--I can’t be positive of that,
but I think it was before.

Mr. HUBERT. Had it been decided at that time that the route to be used
would be through the basement?

Chief BATCHELOR. Well, this is the normal way you take prisoners out of
the jail, and I don’t think any consideration had been given to doing
it any other way. It was just an assumption that this would be the way
he was taken out.

Mr. HUBERT. This was the way to be used and this camera was in the way?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; now if you wanted to avoid people by taking him
out, it would be possible to take him off the jail elevator on the
second floor or the first floor, but this is not the normal way you
take prisoners out of the jail.

There is a door off the jail elevator on the first floor for the
purpose of bringing prisoners down and arraigning them before the
corporation courts which are on the first floor.

There is also an entrance off of the second floor and third floor of
the jail elevator for the purpose of bringing prisoners down to the
various bureaus for interrogation, but I don’t recall that we discussed
bringing him off in this fashion.

Mr. HUBERT. Well now, I understand that at a later time you and Chief
Curry and Chief Stevenson also made a general inspection?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; at that time we went down and this camera had
been moved.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?

Chief BATCHELOR. I can’t recall exactly. I would say that it was some
time between 9 and 10 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you think that would have been after the decision had
been made that the city police department would transfer the prisoner?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; I believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, it was after the conversation of Chief
Curry with Sheriff Decker?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now were you present when Chief Curry spoke to Sheriff
Decker?

Chief BATCHELOR. I was in his office; yes, sir. I believe I was the
only one in the office with him at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Therefore you remember that it was then that the decision
was made that the police department would move him?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir; of course I could only understand one side
of the conversation, but from the way Chief Curry was talking to the
sheriff, I gathered that the sheriff had asked him if he would move
him. The general procedure is for the sheriff to move prisoners.

Mr. HUBERT. But as I understand it, it is not extraordinary for you all
to do it on certain occasions?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; we occasionally do it.

Mr. HUBERT. All right now, when that was learned, as I understand it,
it was then that plans began to be made for your transfer of Oswald?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. And I suppose it is correct to say then that previous to
that time there had been no consideration made of any transfer plans
since you didn’t know actually that you were going to do it?

Chief BATCHELOR. We hadn’t made any definite plans the night before,
if that is what you mean. It was on that morning around 6:30 in the
morning when I received a call at home to the effect that an anonymous
call had come in threatening to take the prisoner away from us. This
was when we really began to be concerned about some extraordinary
procedures in moving him.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it your thought that you all were better equipped to
handle it?

Chief BATCHELOR. We had more manpower than the sheriff would have.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, would you tell us just how the plans developed from
that time then after the Decker call about transferring him, that you
know of?

Chief BATCHELOR. This is when Chief Curry and I discussed the
possibility of getting an armored truck in which to move him, and we
discussed this between ourselves and decided this would probably be a
safe measure.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it just you and he, or was somebody else there?

Chief BATCHELOR. I believe Chief Lumpkin came in the office at the time
this discussion was going on, and I went into my office and called Mr.
Fleming at his home. I had to do a little search in the city directory
to see who was in charge of the Armored Motor Car Service. I called him
at his home.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what time that was?

Chief BATCHELOR. It must have been around 9 o’clock or shortly after.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him what time you wanted the equipment on hand?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; it was actually close to 10:30 when he finally
called me back and said he had the equipment ready and was bringing it
downtown, but I didn’t tell him any definite time, that I recall. In
other words, I didn’t say we are going to move him at a certain hour. I
told him we were ready to move.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you told him to get the equipment there and
would use it when you had occasion to use it?

Chief BATCHELOR. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. At that time when you called him, as a matter of fact, was
the time of the transfer set?

Chief BATCHELOR. There never was a definite time set for his transfer.
Even though the press announced that he would be moved at 10 o’clock,
there was never an announcement made that he would be moved at 10
o’clock, that I recall.

The thing that was said was that if the press were there by 10 o’clock,
we thought it would be ample, that they wouldn’t miss anything.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the fact, the controlling factor insofar as time
was concerned?

Chief BATCHELOR. When the homicide bureau finished their interrogation
of Oswald that morning.

Mr. HUBERT. So then when you first talked to Fleming, he was not able
to tell you whether he could get it?

Chief BATCHELOR. Well, he said he thought he could, but he was going to
have to call his people and get some drivers down there, because they
were closed up on Sunday, and he said, “As soon as I get hold of them,
I will call you.”

He called me twice. He called me back later and said he had the
drivers and he had two trucks, one a large Overland truck which would
accommodate people sitting on each side of the truck on benches, and
one a smaller truck.

He recommended the larger truck because the smaller truck would only
accommodate one person in the back, and of course there would be need
for guards.

So then the question arose as to whether or not this truck could be
backed into the basement in front of the door leading out of the jail,
because there is a low point in the ramp at that point.

So he asked me if I would check and see how high that was. And I
checked with Chief Lumpkin, and he told me that it was 7′5″. This was
not tall enough to accommodate the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what happened?

Chief BATCHELOR. Then I called Mr. Fleming and told him the height and
suggested that we would back the truck in on Commerce Street and not
take it clear to the bottom.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you ordered the larger one only?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; he sent two. He said, “I will send you both, and
you can make a determination when we get there; take the one you like.”

Mr. HUBERT. That second conversation was about 10:30 or so?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; as I recall, it must have been around 10:30. It
was actually after 11 before the trucks finally got there.

Mr. HUBERT. It was after what, sir?

Chief BATCHELOR. I believe it was a little after 11 when the trucks
finally got there; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any way of fixing that time as to when the
trucks actually got there?

Chief BATCHELOR. Well, the way I fix that in my mind is the lapse of
time from the time the trucks arrived until Oswald finally was brought
out in the basement, and this was not very long.

We backed the truck in, and I believe it was Lieutenant Smart and I got
in the truck and searched it, and got some bottles, a couple of Coke
bottles, and a bolt that we found laying there, and took that out of
the truck.

The truck had benches on each side with cushions on the benches. This
was all that was in the truck. And it was only a short time after that
until they actually brought him out. Probably not more than 20 or 30
minutes after the arrival of the trucks that they brought him down.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you advised of the arrival of the trucks?

Chief BATCHELOR. I was in the basement when they came, and somebody
came down the ramp and told me they were out there, and I went out
there and looked at them.

Mr. HUBERT. And you directed that they be backed in?

Chief BATCHELOR. That the big truck. And he backed it in and got the
back wheels over the sidewalk and down the ramp, and it is a fairly
steep ramp. The driver suggested that he not take it clear to the
bottom.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say why?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; he was afraid that he would stall the truck in
coming out. It was a heavy truck and they had just taken it off of
their lot. It had been sitting there all night and the motor was cold
and he was afraid if he got it down the ramp and started out that he
might stall, and he didn’t want to do that.

I looked the truck over. That is, I looked at the truck in relation to
the walls of the ramp and found that it was so wide that there was only
about a foot of space left on one side, and about 2 feet on the other.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember which had 1 foot and which had 2 feet?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir; the side of the truck next to the west
wall----

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the Harwood Street side?

Chief BATCHELOR. That’s right. Next to the Harwood Street side it had
about a foot of space, and next to the east wall, the other side, it
had about 2 feet of space, and we put one man in the space between the
west wall and the truck, and two men between the east wall and the
truck and completely blocked the area.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who those men were?

Chief BATCHELOR. The body of the truck was actually inside the building
on the ramp, and the engine and the front wheels were setting out on
the level portion of the sidewalk.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who the three men were that blocked the sides?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; I don’t recall who.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you actually see them being placed in position?

Chief BATCHELOR. I was standing at the foot of the ramp and saw them
standing there. They were put there at my direction, but I didn’t
personally direct these particular officers. I told the supervisor to
put the men there. I don’t remember who that was either, but they were
there.

Mr. HUBERT. And their orders were to remain there?

Chief BATCHELOR. They remained there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see them there at a later time?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir; they were there when I started to run up the
ramp and close the back door at the time they brought Oswald out.

Mr. HUBERT. The men were still there?

Chief BATCHELOR. They were still there.

Mr. HUBERT. But you don’t recall their names now?

Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. But it was the same men, the one man guarding the 1-foot
space on the Harwood Street side, and the other two guarding the 2-foot
space on the other side were there right after the truck backed in and
were still there just before Oswald was shot, and so far as you know,
they did not move?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. They were under orders to stay there?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; I didn’t give them their orders. They were placed
there, and they were there, so I assumed that they knew to stay there.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do after you left the truck, do you recall?

Chief BATCHELOR. Left the truck?

Mr. HUBERT. The armored car.

Chief BATCHELOR. I was standing in the basement after I left the truck,
and went down to the foot of the ramp. There was a time that Chief
Stevenson came down and whispered to me that they had a change of plans
and that they were going to use the truck as a decoy, and that Oswald
was to be taken in an automobile with detectives.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not go back up to the third floor then between the
time?

Chief BATCHELOR. Not after that truck got to the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave the basement area at all after the truck
backed in?

Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; I don’t recall that I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you then, just around in there?

Chief BATCHELOR. Around in there.

Mr. HUBERT. And Stevenson told you about the change after you had left
the truck. About how much time, roughly, before the shooting?

Chief BATCHELOR. Oh, just a very short time. From the time that he told
me that they had changed their plans and the time the shooting happened
couldn’t have been over 10 or 15 minutes at the most.

After he told me, Lieutenant Pierce and Sergeant Putnam got a squad car
and took it out the Main Street ramp to get around the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that movement part of the original movement?

Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; that was part of the changed plan.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Stevenson tell you about that too then?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; he didn’t actually tell me about that. I saw him
pulling out. I believe at that time he told me what they were doing,
and then immediately after they took their car out. Two homicide
detectives got two detective cars and started lining them up to go
behind this truck, and one of them got in place and pulled up to the
edge of the ramp, and then the other one backed his car in the place,
and he had hardly stopped when they brought Oswald out.

And I was standing up toward the front of the back car, the best I
remember, toward the front of the front fender, and they were still
sort of jockeying these cars.

And about that time someone shouted “Here he comes”, and I looked over
and saw them open the door and bring him out, and I turned and started
up the ramp to close the back door on the armored truck.

No one, nobody--the truck driver nor anyone up on the ramp knew of this
change of plans but the detectives involved in driving these cars.

Mr. HUBERT. And yourself and Stevenson?

Chief BATCHELOR. And myself, Stevenson and Chief Lumpkin. The rest of
the men in the basement were not aware of this change of plans. He
whispered this to me.

Mr. HUBERT. You realized the door had to be closed?

Chief BATCHELOR. I realized the door had to be closed and we hadn’t
told anybody to close it, so as soon as they brought him out and I saw
them bringing him out, I turned and started up the ramp to close the
door on the truck, and that is when the shooting happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember having any conversation or giving any
instructions with reference to the position of the press and other news
media on the west side of the railing that divided the ramp from the
basement?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the Harwood side of the railing?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don’t follow you. There is not any Harwood Street
side of the railing. The railing is on the other side of the driveway.

Mr. HUBERT. That’s right, but if you take the railing as a central
point--I will put it this way. The jail side of the ramp, does that
make sense to you?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Which I think is really the west side of the railing?

Chief BATCHELOR. West side of the ramp; yes, and it would also be west
of the railing.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any instructions or change of instructions with
reference to the position of the press relative to the railing?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes, sir; Chief Curry earlier, when we had come down
there and looked the situation over, had instructed that we keep all
the press on the inside of the railing of the ramp. That would be east
of the railing.

Mr. HUBERT. On the garage side?

Chief BATCHELOR. That’s right. We had also instructed that the TV
camera be moved out. I had instructed that.

Mr. HUBERT. Moved out of the vestibule or corridor? Chief Batchelor.
Between the time Chief Curry had come down with Stevenson and me and
the time I came to the basement the last time they had moved two TV
cameras in behind the railing where the press was to stand.

They also had one TV camera which was on the other side of the post at
the railing on the little ramp that goes down into the garage proper.
This camera, as I recall it, was inoperative.

Mr. HUBERT. Wasn’t connected up?

Chief BATCHELOR. Wasn’t connected up. So later when I came down there,
there actually was not room for the press behind that railing. It was
all taken up with TV cameras. And they were scattered out along the
driveway across the ramp that goes into the garage proper, the little
short ramp that runs east and west into the garage.

And there wasn’t enough room. Detectives were in the vestibule of the
jail office coming into the basement.

It was Captain Talbert, I believe, that asked me, in view of the fact
that there wasn’t enough room over there, if some of these fellows
could stand across there, if we kept them back and put some men to keep
them back, and I said, “Yes, this would be all right.” So they were
across this ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. That is to say, the ramp leading up to Main Street?

Chief BATCHELOR. That’s right. Across the ramp leading up to Main
Street. They stood from the wall over to the railing. Now there were
none standing on the west side of that railing itself. This would have
been in front of the cameras. They curved slightly from the wall, from
the west wall of the ramp over to the railing.

Mr. HUBERT. In sort of a slight curve, sets easterly?

Chief BATCHELOR. Slightly to the south. Easterly, and slightly to the
south in a very slight curve, and there were detectives standing there
all along, and they didn’t move out. They held their positions there,
and the press was instructed that they were not to move out or attempt
to talk to Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you instruct them yourself, or did you hear someone
instruct them?

Chief BATCHELOR. No, I didn’t instruct them myself, but I heard them
instructed, and I can’t recall who it was that told them, it was one of
the supervisors, they were to stay back and not move in when they came
out.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear anyone ask for permission to occupy that space
on the Main Street ramp as they did in a slightly curved line, as you
indicated a moment ago?

Chief BATCHELOR. Did I hear anyone ask for permission?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.

Chief BATCHELOR. The supervisor asked me if this would be all right. It
was Talbert, I believe, that asked me that.

Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t hear the press people ask?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; the press people didn’t ask me that.

Mr. HUBERT. Your instructions were that it would be all right if they
kept back and if the line of policemen were put in front of them, and
so far as you know, it was done?

Chief BATCHELOR. That was done. There were a number of policemen along
there with them, and there were not very many people along there. That
is not very wide across there. I imagine about maybe 12 feet. And
they were not over about two deep where one could look over another’s
shoulder.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time did that happen? Was it after the armored
truck arrived?

Chief BATCHELOR. They were lined up there at the time Lieutenant Pierce
and the sergeant took that car out the Main Street ramp, because they
had to part them to get the car through.

Mr. HUBERT. So that your conversation with Talbert about that would
have been after you left the armored truck, I would think?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; not necessarily. They were standing there for some
little time, because they didn’t know exactly when he was coming down.
No; it was before.

If you mean after the last time I walked down to the armored truck and
got down to the basement--well, it could have been, because it was some
little time after I searched that armored truck, and I didn’t go back
up there.

I say some little time, being probably 15 or 20 minutes, something like
that. I can’t recall definitely the exact time that Talbert asked me
this, but it was during the last period of time I was in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your understanding, Chief, as to who, if any
individual or group of individuals was responsible for carrying out the
transfer movement?

That is to say, considering that the decision had been made by Chief
Curry as to how it would be done, what route would be followed, what
automobiles would be used, what personnel would be used, who was
to implement that by carrying out the orders; if there was any one
individual or not, then who had responsibility for the various segments?

Chief BATCHELOR. The homicide bureau was responsible for actually
transferring the prisoner. This was supplemented, as far as the guards
in the basement were concerned, with a large number of detectives which
had been told by Chief Stevenson earlier to stand by in the bureaus for
assignment in the basement, and we came down to see about security and
learned that Talbert had anticipated this thing.

And Chief Stevenson talked to Talbert. They sat there in the jail
office and talked a while and found out what Talbert had assigned in
terms of men that he had called in to assign along the route on Main
Street.

And later he changed these men. He assumed that they were going down
Main Street, and he changed them, I believe, to Elm Street. Sent a
supervisor down the street to tell them to move over a block.

And I came down there and found security in the basement going into the
jail office. That is in the records bureau section. There were guards
in there. There was a guard on the stairway that leads up to the first
floor.

I came into the basement and found a large number of officers in the
basement. The cars were all gone. There were not over three or four
cars in the entire basement.

Chief Curry’s car had been pulled out and put on Commerce Street,
double parked to lead the group, and I pulled my car up and parked it
on Commerce Street west of the ramp.

His car was parked east of the ramp and mine was parked west of the
ramp. Now this was done prior to the time that we knew or that I knew
or I think even Chief Curry knew that there was going to be any change
of plans.

We had anticipated this in terms of using the armored truck to be
followed by cars of detectives and to be followed by myself and Chief
Stevenson in the rear car, but of course this never developed.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether Captain Fritz or anyone else made
any inquiry of you or of anyone else, to your knowledge, prior to the
movement as to whether things were ready to go in the basement area
before starting from the third floor?

Chief BATCHELOR. I am told that he called Lieutenant Wiggins in the
basement and asked him if he was ready. He called him, I think, from
the jail floor, not from his office. He called him when Oswald was up
in the jail.

Mr. HUBERT. Now when the transfer party did appear, you were actually
moving toward the armored car, as I recall it, then weren’t you, to
close the door?

Chief BATCHELOR. No; I actually saw Oswald come through the door.
Someone shouted “Here he comes.” I looked over and saw him come out
the door, and then I turned and started up the ramp. I didn’t see the
shooting. I turned before.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall if Captain Fritz or anyone else called to
find out if the situation was all right security wise?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don’t know, because I wasn’t in the jail office. I
was out. I am told that he called down and Lieutenant Wiggins said that
almost immediately the elevator came down. And he said, “Is everything
all right?” And started walking with the prisoner. And Wiggins said
that he doesn’t recall whether he answered him or whether--I mean it
just happened so quickly, or whether he went out ahead of him.

Mr. HUBERT. Were the armored car people told of the change of plans?

Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what was proposed to get the truck out of the
way?

Chief BATCHELOR. The driver was in the truck. I would have shouted to
him.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the plan, that you were to call to him?

Chief BATCHELOR. This wasn’t a plan. This is what I would have done.
He was there. I knew he was there. And as soon as I ran up to close
the thing, why I would have shouted. But after the shooting, I didn’t
shout, and the truck wasn’t even moved. We had to move it to let the
ambulance out.

Mr. HUBERT. But your thought was that since the plans had been changed,
the truck had to be gotten out of the way, and since you were the only
one down there who knew other than Stevenson, you would have gotten the
truck out of the way?

Chief BATCHELOR. I would have gotten the truck out, just like I would
have told him to close the door and let’s go.

Mr. HUBERT. Now do you recall whether immediately prior to the shooting
the detectives and other police officers in the basement had side arms,
pistols drawn? Did you see anybody with a drawn gun?

Chief BATCHELOR. The only person I saw with a drawn gun was after the
shooting. I looked up. There was a great deal of confusion and a lot of
shouting immediately after the shooting, and a group of these reporters
started to run up the Main Street ramp, and the officer at the top of
that ramp, I recall very vividly him pulling his gun and waving it
across this way and saying, “Get back down that ramp.”

Mr. HUBERT. That was Vaughn, was it not?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; and they turned around and came back down.

Mr. HUBERT. Did any of the police personnel in the basement area have
any shotguns?

Chief BATCHELOR. Not visible. The homicide cars had shotguns.

Mr. HUBERT. But they weren’t visible?

Chief BATCHELOR. No.

Mr. HUBERT. So far as you know, Sheriff Decker did not know that there
was a change of plan from the use of the armored car to the use of the
homicide car?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don’t know whether he was called after the change of
plans or not.

Mr. HUBERT. This was not announced?

Chief BATCHELOR. He knew he was to have some men at the gate to open
the gate to the jail driveways of the county to let this armored car
in, and the instructions were for Lieutenant Pierce, who drove the car
out, was to get out around in front, to take this truck on beyond and
not go in, drive right on down Houston Street with it. And whether
Sheriff Decker was ever told of the change of plans or not, I don’t
know, but I kind of doubt it.

Mr. HUBERT. Chief, do you know of any type of pressure of any sort
whatsoever which was put upon the police department or any member of it
to allow free press coverage of the transfer?

Chief BATCHELOR. If you mean that any individual or any press group
came and pressured anyone into that, I don’t know of any. Just the
general pressure of the whole press barging in there and being in there
was about the only thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any pressure put upon you or anyone else by
officers or officials of the city higher than you to allow the press to
be present in the way they were?

Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your estimate of what the number of press people
and the general condition created by their presence, contributed to the
failure of security? Of what the presence of the news media and the
number of them contributed to the failure of security?

Chief BATCHELOR. Of course if we had taken him out in secret without
anyone knowing about it, including the press, it is possible that this
might not have happened. But I can’t say that the press caused any
breakdown in security. From what we know now, believing that Oswald
came in the Main Street entrance----

Mr. HUBERT. You mean Ruby?

Chief BATCHELOR. I mean Ruby came in the Main Street entrance, our
weakness in security lay in allowing him to come down that ramp in the
first place.

Had the press not been in the basement at all, and assuming that Ruby
slipped into the basement, then he might have been detected more
readily.

If people had not been standing across the Main Street ramp, there
would have been no place for him to screen himself. But the actual fact
of the press being there is hard to say that this caused the breakdown
in the security, in my opinion.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, you were--when I say you, I mean
the police department and of course including you--you were aware
of threats being made or having been made toward Oswald, isn’t that
correct?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; I was aware of it.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it, the threats were in the nature of mass
action rather than single-man action?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; that was what the anonymous report was, and it
is my opinion that a hundred men, as suggested by the threats, could
not have gotten into the basement, whereas one person slipping in there
accomplished it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any conversation with Chief Curry or others
at which you were present or took part, in which the subject was raised
that the number of people there in the basement made single action, or
action by a single man more difficult to deal with than otherwise?

Chief BATCHELOR. I think it is logical to assume that.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, more specifically, do you remember a discussion of
the possibility that some member even of the police department who was
unsteady might, as a single-man action, take some such action?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don’t recall a discussion about that.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether you yourself or anyone else that
you know of adverted to the possibility that the number of people
involved increased the risk of single-man action, but that the plan
went ahead as a calculated risk?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don’t recall that that was discussed. I am sure that
we all assumed that there is a risk in such matters, because we could
have possibly taken him out in secret and avoided the press.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that considered at all, taking him out in secret?

Chief BATCHELOR. I don’t recall a discussion of it myself. I am sure
that Chief Curry and the rest of us possibly felt that the press had
been allowed in the quarters and they got in there quite by, or were in
there long before we got back from the President’s assassination. They
were there when we got there, when we returned to the office.

Mr. HUBERT. That is on November 22?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; and we had gone that far with them, and I suppose
it was a matter of tacit understanding that they had been allowed to
report the news as it developed, and in keeping the public aware,
perhaps it was felt that they should be allowed to complete, if that is
the word to use, their reporting on the actual transfer. This, however,
was never discussed. This is just a little mental browsing on my own.
I don’t know that that is the way everybody felt, but it is the way it
was done at any rate.

Mr. HUBERT. You were aware, of course, of, I think it is called General
Order No. 81 and a supplement concerning press releases?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes; I am aware of that.

Mr. HUBERT. I think that the general tenor of those directives is that
they shall cooperate with the press to the extent that such does not
interfere with police operations?

Chief BATCHELOR. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever consider that the chaotic condition, that I
understand existed from what I have learned, constituted interference,
or did you think so?

Chief BATCHELOR. It wasn’t for me to say, Mr. Hubert, whether they
should or should not be there. They were kept, as far as possible, out
of the bureaus in which the investigation was going on. They were in
the hallways.

We have never thought it wise to try to hide from the press the
course of investigation except as it might interfere with the further
investigation of a crime.

We have at the end of the hallway in the CID, the pressroom. When we
remodeled the city hall, we purposely had glass doors put in all the
bureaus and in the offices so that there could be no accusations that
underhanded things or unlawful force or intimidations were used against
these people.

We have always considered that the press was entitled to know the
news, and that as long as it didn’t interfere with the course of an
investigation, we have allowed them out at the scene of crimes, but
have kept them back from places where they might disturb evidence and
this sort of thing. But have never tried to exclude them from knowledge
of what was going on.

We make offense reports on every crime that is committed, and these
offense reports are subject to being looked at by the press. They go
over them nearly every morning looking for stories.

Sometimes they will find one that they want to ask someone about. We
have always tried to cooperate with the press.

Mr. HUBERT. It is your thought then that the mass confusion which has
been described, which existed in the hallway of the third floor at
least, did not actually interfere with Captain Fritz’ investigative
steps excepting insofar as it made it difficult to move Oswald?

Chief BATCHELOR. Well, it increased the difficulties; yes, but it
didn’t actually interfere with the investigation. It added to the
confusion, but as far as the press, some of the things that added to
the confusion were all of the various agencies that had an interest and
all trying to carry on a simultaneous investigation. This within itself
added to the confusion.

This was a highly unusual type of crime and we are really not set up
for procedures whereby you allow every other agency to come in and go
through all of your evidence in the fashion that it was here, because
of the press of time and so on.

It was a most difficult investigation, but I don’t think the press
materially interfered with the investigation itself. They made things
difficult by asking a lot of questions and taking up a lot of people’s
time and this sort of thing, but they were not allowed in the homicide
bureau.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, Chief Batchelor, I don’t believe that there has
been any conversation between us which has not become the subject of
the actual recorded transcript here, and the rules of the Commission
require that I get your concurrence in that.

That is to say, that we have not discussed anything, have we, off the
record that has not become a part of the record?

Chief BATCHELOR. No, sir; not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, have you anything else to comment upon or
add in any way?

Chief BATCHELOR. No, actually the things that we discussed today were
pretty much along the lines of the things that I gave a previous
deposition on. There may be some little variance in exact times or
exact sequence, but it is pretty hard to remember all those.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, thank you very much. I appreciate your coming in.

Chief BATCHELOR. Thank you, sir.



TESTIMONY OF JESSE E. CURRY

The testimony of Jesse E. Curry was taken at 11:15 a.m., on July 13,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant
attorney general of Texas and Dean Robert G. Storey, special counsel to
the attorney general of Texas were present.


Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Chief of Police Jesse E. Curry.
Chief Curry, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29,
1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with
that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you, among others.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Chief Curry, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry, and I
understand you have appeared here by virtue of a letter received from
Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the President’s
Commission, and I think that was received by you sometime last week?

Chief CURRY. Friday.

Mr. HUBERT. Friday. Do you remember what date it had on it?

Chief CURRY. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, as you know, every witness is entitled to a 3-day
written notice from the date of notice, which in this case is very
probably more than 3 days, but the rules also provide for a waiver of
that notice, and I take it you are willing to testify without it?

Chief CURRY. Sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Chief CURRY. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Chief Curry, your deposition has already been taken by me
some months ago, and also you have appeared before the Commission.

The purpose of this deposition is simply to clarify a few points that
have come up in studying those depositions and the statements.

We have information of which you are aware that Chief Talbert----

Chief CURRY. That is Captain Talbert.

Mr. HUBERT. Captain Talbert initiated certain security measures on the
morning of November 24. Is it your understanding that he was given any
specific instructions, or was he just following the normal security
precautions?

Chief CURRY. Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson went down for the
purpose of giving specific instructions, but when they arrived in the
basement, he had already begun to set up security, so they didn’t just
say “hold everything and let me give you this order.” They saw it was
being taken care of.

He had assumed command of the security and they just discussed with him
then what was being done, but no specific order was issued to Captain
Talbert “you go set up security in the basement.”

Mr. HUBERT. Do I understand from that, that you had a conversation with
Stevenson and Batchelor concerning the overall security problem?

Chief CURRY. Up in the office, in the administrative office we had been
talking, and Chief Batchelor or Chief Stevenson--one, I don’t recall
which, said “Let’s go check the basement”, which I took to mean check
the security of the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there a general discussion about the overall plan of
the transfer, or who was it that worked it out?

Chief CURRY. In general, it was worked out between myself, Chief
Stevenson, Chief Batchelor, and Captain Fritz. Now I mean all of us
discussed this. Not together, but I don’t recall who was present at
each time something was mentioned, but I think that Chief Stevenson and
Chief Batchelor were present, and I think in discussing it with Captain
Fritz I was alone--that is, no other chief was present.

Mr. HUBERT. When were the details of the transfer worked out? I mean
the plan of transfer, how did it come about?

Chief CURRY. What part exactly do you refer to?

Mr. HUBERT. For instance, a decision as to when and how and who would
be involved?

Chief CURRY. As to when, would be made by Captain Fritz, because he was
questioning the suspect and it was up to him to determine when he was
ready to transfer Oswald.

He had told me the day before that probably by 10 o’clock on this
morning he would finish questioning Oswald and would be ready for a
transfer.

However, as you know, he was not ready at 10 o’clock, and we didn’t
try to rush him or encourage him to speed it up. But on Sunday morning
after the threats against Oswald’s life had been received, Chief
Stevenson, Batchelor and myself decided that for security purposes it
would be advisable to transfer Oswald in an armored truck.

However, after these were obtained and provisions made to get, that
is to get the armored car, and discussing it with Captain Fritz, he
proposed to transfer him in a car with himself and some detectives for
the purpose of maneuverability in the event that someone did try to get
the prisoner from them.

It was then decided that the armored car would still be used, the same
route followed by the armored car and the escort vehicles, but that the
prisoner Oswald would be placed in a plain detective car with Captain
Fritz and two other detectives, and with a car of detectives following.

They would cut out of the group of vehicles as we crossed Main Street,
and would proceed west on Main to the county jail. They would proceed
west on Main to Houston Street, make a right turn and go into the
county jail.

The rest of the vehicles, including the armored cars, would proceed
west on Elm Street to Houston Street, and turn south, but they would
not go into the county jail building.

Mr. HUBERT. Were any of those plans such as the route that would be
used and the method discussed or formalized in any way at all prior to
Sunday morning?

Chief CURRY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you had a conversation with Sheriff Decker on
Sunday morning. Do you remember the time of that, approximately?

Chief CURRY. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. As I recall it, at that time it was not yet determined who
was going to move him, is that correct?

Chief CURRY. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. In the conversation with Decker, or during that
conversation, it was decided that it would be your responsibility to
move him, is that correct?

Chief CURRY. As I recall the conversation, I told Sheriff Decker that
we were ready for him to have the prisoner, that you can come after him
when you want to.

And at that time he said, “I thought you were going to bring him to me.”

And I said, “Well, either way you want it.” I said, “If you want us to
bring him, we will bring him to you.” This is not an unusual procedure
at all.

Mr. HUBERT. So it was after that then, and it could not have been
before that, that any plans of your own began to take shape?

Chief CURRY. Security of the basement could; yes, because regardless of
who took the man, the basement had to be secured. The particular route
that would be followed would not be decided upon until that time, but
this is no problem.

We knew we had to go west on Main Street or Elm Street to get to the
county jail, but we did, after it was decided that we would transfer
him, make that plan to place more men on the Elm Street route to be
sure that the convoy that would be en route would not in any way be
hindered.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you considered it your responsibility to
secure the basement, irrespective of who actually moved him, you or the
sheriff?

Chief CURRY. That is true; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was consideration ever given to any other route than
through the basement?

Chief CURRY. Not through the basement?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Chief CURRY. Not that I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember visiting the basement with Chief Batchelor
and Chief Stevenson?

Chief CURRY. I seem to recall that one time we were there together, but
as I remember they were in the basement as I drove in coming to work.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have been before you called Decker?

Chief CURRY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think at that time you or perhaps Chief Batchelor ordered
certain cameras to be removed that were in the hallway. Do you recall
that?

Chief CURRY. I told Chief Batchelor or Stevenson or someone that those
cameras will have to be moved.

Mr. HUBERT. They were in the hallway leading from the jail office down
into the basement?

Chief CURRY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you direct where they should be moved to?

Chief CURRY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Where was that?

Chief CURRY. Well, if you are familiar with the basement, there is a
driveway entering from Main Street. You would be traveling south. As
you near the end of the ramp where you would make a turn to the left
and go east to go into the parking area, there are some guardrails that
would protect people from stepping off of the ramp into the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. They separate the ramp from the basement?

Chief CURRY. From the parking area; yes, sir, and I instructed, I
believe it was Lieutenant Wiggins, who was standing there, to have a
patrol car and a patrol wagon, which might be referred to as a paddy
wagon, moved from the first two spaces, and have the television cameras
set up there. If they, the news media, wanted to set them up, they
would have to be set up there.

Mr. HUBERT. At that time it had not been decided whether Oswald would
be transferred by armored car or by your police car, or for that
matter, by the sheriff?

Chief CURRY. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether anyone gave any orders to the
effect that press media and all authorized persons there should be kept
on the east side of the rail that you just described, and not in the
ramp area?

Chief CURRY. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. That order was given, do you remember?

Chief CURRY. At the time, I instructed that all the press would be
behind the guardrail--all the news media.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any request made by anybody that they should be allowed
to stand on the west side of the rail?

Chief CURRY. Not to me.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it your thought all the way through that they were
being kept on the other side?

Chief CURRY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, as I understand it, of course, the plans were
formulated by yourself and Batchelor and perhaps Stevenson, and after
you learned that Sheriff Decker was agreeable to your bringing the
prisoner over, or it was agreed that you would, the plan of carrying
him there by armored truck was first discussed, and later that was
changed. That was the plan. Who was in charge of actually executing the
plan?

Chief CURRY. I don’t suppose any one particular man would have been
charged with the responsibility of the entire movement.

Chief Stevenson and Chief Batchelor and Chief Lumpkin, all of these
men went into the basement immediately prior to the transfer, and each
would have had responsibility to correct anything that was amiss.

Mr. HUBERT. All were aware of the plan?

Chief CURRY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. To use the armored truck which had meanwhile pulled up as a
decoy and carried out as you described a few moments ago?

Chief CURRY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think there has been some testimony by other people prior
that an attempt had been made to reach you early Sunday morning but
that the line was reported busy.

Chief CURRY. The FBI asked me about that a few days ago, and I recall
that the squad that came out, or that they actually called me and said
they had been trying to get me and the squad was on the way out there;
and discussing this with my wife, she said that she had taken the phone
off the hook sometime during the night, and that the telephone company
had made some kind of noise over the phone that woke her up and told
her that something was wrong with the line, and the phone was off the
hook, and she replaced it on the hook.

But when I was talking to the FBI Agent Vince Drain, about this, I
didn’t remember just what was wrong with the telephone.

At the time, I had been up for quite awhile, and it was not my
instructions to her to take it off the hook. She took it off sometime
on her own initiative, she said, so we could get some sleep. That was
the trouble with the phone.

Mr. HUBERT. Chief, is it possible to comment upon this? To what extent
was the failure of security caused by the presence of news media in the
basement?

Chief CURRY. Well, in my opinion, it afforded some concealment for Ruby
after he entered the basement, the presence of these news media people.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean by that, that it was difficult to distinguish him
from news people?

Chief CURRY. Yes; looking back now, I can see that, had they all been
excluded, that he would have immediately been seen as an unauthorized
person in the basement, and that some action would have been taken to
remove him.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any consideration given to the action of the single
individual in the security precautions discussed?

Chief CURRY. Was what?

Mr. HUBERT. Was any consideration given to the possible action of a
single man in setting up the security measures that you did, as opposed
to mob action, as I understand it?

Chief CURRY. Oh, no.

Mr. HUBERT. Your security was really directed toward mob action more
than to a single-man action?

Chief CURRY. That’s right. We felt that if an attempt was made on him,
that it would be made by a group of people. Some of the threats that
had been made during the night was, “this is a group of one hundred and
we will take the prisoner before you get him to the county jail,” so we
really expected trouble, if we had trouble, from a group of people and
not an individual.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it fair to state then that there was not any
consideration given to the probability of a one-man action?

Chief CURRY. It was not discussed at all, that I know of, in our
discussions of security. It was based on the fact that we thought a
group of people might try to take action.

Mr. HUBERT. What I wanted to get at is this. Actually, a single-man
action would, or rather protection or security against a single-man
action would be virtually impossible with a mass of people around even
if they were news media?

Chief CURRY. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it then that there was simply no consideration of
single-man action, or that it was a calculated risk?

Chief CURRY. Well, it would have been a calculated risk, because
actually we discussed the possibility of even some detective or some
police officer that might be so emotionally aroused that he might try
to take some action against the man, and we tried to be sure that the
men we put there were emotionally stable men.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you discuss that with?

Chief CURRY. I think it was with Chief Batchelor, and Chief Stevenson
perhaps. I don’t recall exactly who I discussed all of these things
with.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any pressures imposed upon you by anyone to
allow the press covering of the matter that did in fact occur?

Chief CURRY. Not any particular person, but by the news media that was
present.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember whether anyone advised against allowing the
news media in the basement?

Chief CURRY. Not that I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any reason, Chief, why the plans for the transfer
of Oswald were not made prior to Sunday morning?

Chief CURRY. Because we didn’t particularly know when he would be
transferred, and we knew that it wouldn’t take a great deal of time to
set up security, so we didn’t see any particular need for doing this
prior to the time that we did it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any conversation with Captain Fritz just
prior to the move as to whether the security precautions were set up?

Chief CURRY. I can’t recall. He tells me that he asked if everything
was ready in the basement, and I believe that is the words he used, and
he says that I said “Yes.” I am sure that I told him this if he says I
did, because prior to this, I had sent Chief Batchelor down to be sure
that everything was ready.

Mr. HUBERT. These various officers that you mentioned would be
responsible for carrying out the plan? I think you mentioned Stevenson
and Batchelor particularly? They were all briefed as to the overall
plan, were they not?

Chief CURRY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So everyone in control knew what was going to happen?

Chief CURRY. Yes; except I believe Lumpkin. Now he didn’t know until
Chief Batchelor and Stevenson came to the basement that the change had
been made, but Chief Batchelor and Chief Stevenson were aware of the
change and Chief Stevenson told Chief Lumpkin about the change when
he got to the basement. The only thing that would affect him was the
fact they were going to put the prisoner in a squad car instead of the
armored car, because that was the only change in the plans.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall the conversation with Fritz to the general
effect that he did not like the idea of all the news people being in
the basement?

Chief CURRY. I don’t recall it.

Mr. HUBERT. There was some indication, I guess from him, that there was
such a conversation, but you say you don’t remember it?

Chief CURRY. I don’t recall it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any written reports from Archer, Clardy and
McMillon in February prior to the Ruby trial, which were supplementary
to the original report given to you, do you remember?

Chief CURRY. I don’t recall. I would have to check my records on it.

Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you could do that?

Chief CURRY. If you will give me their names, write them down for me.

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir; my handwriting is reputed to be very bad. Let’s
see, it is A-r-c-h-e-r, C-l-a-r-d-y, and M-c-M-i-l-l-o-n.

Chief CURRY. Now if this is in regard to a conversation that they
overheard up in the jail between Ruby and a Secret Service agent, well,
I remember getting something about that. I know someone came back and
asked for some additional reports on this. Do you know what this is in
regard to, this supplemental report?

Mr. HUBERT. I think they were in regard to what Ruby told them.

Chief CURRY. Down in the basement?

Mr. HUBERT. Either that, or immediately after having been brought
upstairs.

Chief CURRY. Yes, sir; that is true. This was in the presence of Secret
Service Agent Sorrels; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. The statements we would like to have are any other written
statements made by them probably in February, but in any case prior
to the Ruby trial and after their original statements were made in
connection with the general order that everyone should make a statement
to you. Do you remember that that was done? Do you recall the message
from Mr. J. Edgar Hoover asking that the police not disclose the
results of the FBI investigation with reference to Oswald?

Chief CURRY. I don’t recall ever having received a direct communication
from Hoover.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember anything about any FBI request coming to
your attention indirectly that the FBI investigation would not be
revealed?

Chief CURRY. What part of the investigation?

Mr. HUBERT. Any part. I mean was there any such communication, that you
remember, at all from the FBI?

Chief CURRY. I had a lot of communications from local FBI who inferred
that these orders were coming out of Washington, or the questions
were coming out of Washington about various things, insisting that
the evidence be shipped up there immediately, and the fact that we
shouldn’t show anything on television.

Several things of that nature, but I don’t recall specifically saying
that the results of this investigation should not be revealed. They did
reveal a part of it, you know, about the rifle.

As you recall it, there was no evidence--pardon me. There was no part
of their investigation revealed until they revealed it as I recall. I
never had any contact with Hoover.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know yourself as to what food was made available to
Oswald during the time he was in the custody of the police department?

Chief CURRY. Not exactly. Our jail meals usually consist of breakfast
and dinner. They usually have a cooked cereal of some kind, some
stewed fruit, bread, and coffee for breakfast. For their other meal,
they usually have beans cooked with some kind of meat, some kind of
vegetables served, and bread and coffee.

Mr. HUBERT. Then at night?

Chief CURRY. They serve two meals a day.

Mr. HUBERT. He was treated, so far as you know, as every other prisoner?

Chief CURRY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Insofar as the physical comforts were concerned, there was
no distinction made between him and any other prisoner?

Chief CURRY. Except that he was placed in a cell alone, and in many
cases we are not able to do this for every prisoner.

Mr. HUBERT. For the record, what is the official name of the police
part of the building there? Is it called the city jail building?

Chief CURRY. The police and courts building.

Mr. HUBERT. The police and courts building?

Chief CURRY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And the other building that is adjacent to it?

Chief CURRY. It is referred to as the city hall or municipal building.

Mr. HUBERT. Municipal building?

Chief CURRY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Actually, they join together by a hallway?

Chief CURRY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That parking area is under the municipal building, whereas
the ramp is under the police building?

Chief CURRY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Under the municipal building also?

Chief CURRY. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, the way these buildings are, one is the
municipal building and the other is the police department building?

Chief CURRY. They refer to one as the municipal building and the other
as the police and courts building. Sometimes both are referred to as
“city hall.”

Mr. HUBERT. Police and courts building. Let me go off the record for a
moment.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. HUBERT. Chief, while we were off the record, I spoke to you about
the police department records concerning the log made of the time
when Oswald was taken from the custody of the jail personnel in your
department to, say, Captain Fritz’ office or somewhere else, and as
I understand it, a log is kept to record the transfers in custody of
prisoners, is that correct, sir?

And if a prisoner is turned over to another branch of the police
department, a document called a Tempo is issued which shows the time of
release, to whom released, and the time returned?

Chief CURRY. This is the procedure where the prisoner, generally
speaking, leaves the security of the jail area. A Tempo is made. As
long as he is in the custody of the jailers, perhaps for a visitor or
for perhaps into the identification bureau, which is a part of the
jail, there would be no Tempo made.

But when he leaves the jail in the custody of some other bureau, this
Tempo is made.

Mr. HUBERT. Let me ask you this then. Would a Tempo be made if he had a
visit with, say, his wife, his mother, or his brother?

Chief CURRY. No; but there should be a visitor’s record made of this.

Mr. HUBERT. However, under those circumstances as you have described,
he would still be in the custody of the jailer, and therefore there
would be no occasion to have a Tempo?

Chief CURRY. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Would that be true also when the identification bureau
people took fingernail scrapings and hair specimens?

Chief CURRY. True. It would not be necessary to get a Tempo.

Mr. HUBERT. He would still be in the custody of the jail people and no
Tempo would be necessary?

Chief CURRY. Right.

Mr. HUBERT. Also if Oswald made any telephone calls, would there be
occasion for a Tempo on that?

Chief CURRY. No.

Mr. HUBERT. That is because the phone is in the jail area and no
necessity for a Tempo?

Chief CURRY. That’s right. On his arrest card there would be a record
kept of any phone calls that were made. It would be entered on the
card, the fact that he did go in to use the phone, and it usually shows
on the card whether or not contact was made.

Mr. HUBERT. That card would also show any visits?

Chief CURRY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now if he were taken to a lineup or showup, would a Tempo
be made there?

Chief CURRY. No, sir; because let me put it this way. If he was brought
from the jail to go to the showup, a Tempo would be probably issued
then.

Mr. HUBERT. If custody were transferred?

Chief CURRY. Pardon me, let me restate this. In a general showup, the
bureau that wants a person shown up notifies the jail personnel. The
jail personnel gets the people together, the wanted person and two
or three others similarly dressed, or people of the same nature and
general build and so forth, out of the jail and takes them to the
showup and then returns them to the jail. All this time they are in the
custody of the jail personnel, so it would not be necessary to make out
a Tempo on it.

Now at other times the prisoner could be in custody of a certain
bureau and they could decide to show him up and they could have some
detectives stand in with him, and there would be no need for the jail
personnel to handle it at all on this basis, nor would it be necessary
to get a Tempo, because he would already be out on a Tempo.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall at any time that you told the news media that
the basement route would be used specifically?

Chief CURRY. Not specifically.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember that, I think it was late on the night of
the 22d or early on the morning of the 23d, there was a conversation
with the press and yourself and the district attorney and Oswald in the
assembly room?

As I recall it, the press had asked you “when can we see him” and so
forth, and there was some discussion of how it would be done, and there
was a great crowd around, and someone suggested another place. And I
think you conferred with Mr. Wade, and it was decided to comply with
this press request by using a larger room, to wit, the assembly room,
and they all went down to it and subsequently you all came in. Was
any kind of control or identification system used for entry into the
assembly room?

Chief CURRY. Not into that room; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, all those who were within the building or
within the third floor went in?

Chief CURRY. That is where this discussion was held or where the
announcement was made that there would be a showup in the police
assembly room. It was made up on the third floor.

Mr. HUBERT. That was made at the request of the press?

Chief CURRY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. It was held really at the request of the press?

Chief CURRY. Yes, sir; I remember that I asked Mr. Wade if he thought
it would be all right, and he said he didn’t see anything wrong with it.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand also that you told the press that----

Chief CURRY. They must not ask any questions and try to interview him
in any way.

Mr. HUBERT. Or you would terminate?

Chief CURRY. And I did terminate it very quickly, because when Oswald
was brought into the room, immediately they began to shoot questions at
him and shove microphones into his face, and we kept him there a very
short time, and I told them to take him away, take him back up to the
jail, and they did. Mr. Wade remained in the room with the reporters
after that. I left when the prisoner left.

Mr. HUBERT. Now do you know of the fact that a tape recording device
was placed on the telephone of Mayor Cabell to pick up really any
threatening calls that might be received by him? Are you aware of that?

Chief CURRY. I believe that we did that. I think our special services
bureau went to his house.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that tape recording of those calls still in existence?

Chief CURRY. I suppose it is, sure. It wouldn’t be destroyed.

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose we may assume also that had there been anything
of significance, it would have been reported?

Chief CURRY. Yes; I do think he had some threatening calls, but had
there been something that we thought we could probably take some action
on, we would have done it.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I understand that the police department got a long
distance call, or what was thought to be a long distance call, on
November 24, threatening Mayor Cabell, and that in fact you transmitted
that information to him when you talked to him on the morning before
the shooting of Oswald. Do you recall that?

Chief CURRY. I recall that there were several calls that came to our
attention, but I don’t remember each one of them.

Mr. HUBERT. What I was interested in, Mayor Cabell indicated that they
thought that it was a long distance call, and I think they got that
impression from you. Probably you got it from the operator, whoever got
the call. You didn’t get the call yourself? You say if it were a long
distance call, it might have been possible to trace it down?

Chief CURRY. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. But you didn’t get the call yourself?

Chief CURRY. No, sir; not that I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. I wonder if you could--who would have gotten it, do you
know?

Chief CURRY. I don’t know. Anyone that is in the administrative office
or any other part of the police department could have gotten it.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember who you got the information from?

Chief CURRY. No, sir; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any consideration, Chief, given to putting all the
press people out of the building or out of the basement altogether?

Chief CURRY. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any consideration given to moving Oswald by a route
other than the basement route?

Chief CURRY. I think you asked me that once, and I don’t recall it.
There may have been some discussion, but he could have been moved in
another way by getting off on another floor. As I recall it, there was
some brief discussion about it, but I think, as I recall it, Fritz
didn’t want to move him other than in a routine manner.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know why?

Chief CURRY. Because, as I recall it, he felt like this was the best
way to do it, because if he got off on another floor, he wouldn’t be
protected. He wouldn’t have much protection. You can’t take very many
men with you on a small jail elevator. I believe it was Fritz I was
discussing this with; I couldn’t be positive on that. As I recall it,
there was some mention made of perhaps taking him out on the first
floor and trying to get him outside that way, but it was decided that
the best way would be to handle him through the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the reason for the suggestion that he be taken
through another floor?

Chief CURRY. I don’t recall other than someone perhaps thought we could
slip him out and it might be better to slip him out rather than to move
him according to normal procedures.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did the fact that there were so many members of the
press present in the basement bear upon that question, or do you recall
whether that was the reasoning that Fritz suggested?

Chief CURRY. I don’t recall; no. I don’t believe it was Fritz that
suggested he be taken out through the first floor. I think he was
opposed to it. Anyway, it was not discussed in great detail.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand there was some discussion of not going through
the basement area, but using another way, and what I wanted to know was
what was the reason given for that, whoever gave it?

Chief CURRY. Because of the press, I am sure.

Mr. HUBERT. And the danger that would exist from a one-man attack?

Chief CURRY. Perhaps that was in the mind of whoever suggested this.
But their main thought was to avoid these reporters.

Mr. HUBERT. Chief, I don’t think we have discussed anything off the
record that has not been covered on the record, and it is necessary for
me to close this deposition by asking you if there has been anything
off the record that was not subsequently brought on the record? My
reaction is that there has not been, and I ask you if you agree with
that?

Chief CURRY. I agree with that.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, do you have anything else?

Chief CURRY. Not that I know of.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, Chief.

Chief CURRY. Yes, Sir.



TESTIMONY OF M. W. STEVENSON

The testimony of M. W. Stevenson was taken at 2:15 p.m., on July 13,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant
attorney general of Texas, was present.


Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Deputy Chief M. W. Stevenson.
Chief Stevenson, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29,
1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with
that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Chief Stevenson, the nature of the inquiry
today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and
any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now Chief Stevenson, you appeared today by virtue of a general request
made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff
of the President’s Commission. In fact, under the rules adopted by the
Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the
taking of this deposition, but the rules adopted by the Commission also
provide that a witness may waive this 3-day written notice if he so
wishes.

Since you have not received the actual individual 3-day written notice,
I ask you if you are now willing to waive that notice and proceed with
the taking of this deposition?

Chief STEVENSON. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you stand so I may administer the oath? Do you
solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the
truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Chief STEVENSON. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Chief Stevenson, you were here and previously deposed, in
fact by me, on the night of March 23, 1964, at which time your personal
identification and other matters of this sort were recorded, so that it
is not necessary to go into that at the present time.

I merely wish to clarify certain areas and perhaps develop others which
were found to need clarification or development.

Do you recall what time it was on the 24th of November, 1963, that you
reported for duty at the Dallas Police Department?

Chief STEVENSON. I believe around 8 to 8:30. I wouldn’t say exactly,
Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you at that time meet or see Chief Batchelor?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes, sir; I saw Chief Batchelor when I arrived. I
believe I was in the basement at that time. I had just driven in
shortly before, or he had driven in right behind me, one of the two.

Mr. HUBERT. What occurred then between the two of you and with respect
to others?

Chief STEVENSON. We looked the basement over at the time. Of course
that early in the morning, there was not much activity. There was some
officers in the basement. We went up to the administrative offices.

Mr. HUBERT. Why did you check the basement?

Chief STEVENSON. Because we observed the officers there in the basement
and knew that the prisoner would be transferred that particular morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether it had been decided at that time
whether the actual transfer would be the function and responsibility of
the police department or of the sheriff’s office?

Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; I don’t. I know it was later in the morning
when Chief Curry did call the sheriff’s office. As far as I know, at
that time no plans had been finalized that we would transfer him or
that the sheriff would transfer him.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, the security precautions or measures being
then set up, or which had been set up by Captain Talbert already, with
reference to the basement would be applicable whether the transfer took
place by you or by the sheriff, is that correct?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes, sir; as far as getting him out of the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you consider then that the decision had already been
made that the basement method of exit would be used irrespective of who
moved the prisoner?

Chief STEVENSON. To my knowledge, that was the only one that we had
considered.

Mr. HUBERT. Had there been consideration of the method of transfer
prior to Sunday morning at all?

Chief STEVENSON. Not to my knowledge; no, sir. Not as to the method.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall a visit to the basement subsequent to that
first visit when you arrived and reported for duty?

Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; I had not been in the basement prior to the
time I arrived, and of course we drive into the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. I really meant subsequent to that.

Chief STEVENSON. Oh, I am sorry. Yes, we made--Chief Batchelor and I
made--I would say, two trips after that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Chief Curry go with you at any time?

Chief STEVENSON. We met Chief Curry, I believe, one time as he drove in
the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any conversation that you or Chief Curry or
Chief Batchelor had with Captain Talbert regarding what had been done
securitywise to the basement or otherwise?

Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; not to my knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know what security plans had been instituted prior
to the time that Chief Curry spoke to Sheriff Decker?

Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; not to my knowledge. Nothing more than that I
had instructed my detectives to stand by for assignment.

Mr. HUBERT. What assignment was it contemplated that your detectives
would have?

Chief STEVENSON. That they would stand by for any assignment that might
be needed in the basement at the transfer of Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. That was irrespective of whether or not the sheriff moved
the prisoner or your department did?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now do you recall any instructions or orders with reference
to the position of the press in the basement?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes; I was----

Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead.

Chief STEVENSON. I was present in the basement when Chief Curry arrived
and said the doors would be kept clear across the driveway entering
into the basement of the city hall proper. Then all photographers and
pressmen would be kept back in the parking area proper, back behind the
driveway line.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, they were to be on the east side of the
ramp altogether, is that correct?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now was there any change in that?

Chief STEVENSON. Officially, Mr. Hubert, to my knowledge, there was
not. Now there may have been some changes made on the scene when the
decision was made to use a car instead of the truck. Since the truck
was parked up on the ramp and would not come down and clear, there was
possibly some changes made on the spot when we found the truck wouldn’t
come down the ramp and a car would be used for the transfer, to put
them as far back north of where the car would be as possible.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean to put the press, to allow them to be there?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes; in other words, behind the car, if possible, and
up the Main Street ramp on the Main Street side. I believe there was
some up there; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you don’t know who made that on-the-spot decision, as
you recall it?

Chief STEVENSON. I believe possibly Captain Jones, and he talked with,
I believe it was, Chief Batchelor. I am not sure as to what the last
minute changes were to get them away from the immediate area there.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, all the press people prior to the change
were on the east side of the railing and on the ramp down from the
east-west ramp leading into the garage parking area proper?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes, sir; they were all east of it, both the north and
the south ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Because of the change of plans which required the bringing
up of automobiles to get into the ramp leading up Commerce Street, it
is your thought it was necessary to alter that, and that someone did
alter them to allow some of the press to be on the ramp leading toward
Main Street?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes, sir; I believe that is right.

Mr. HUBERT. In fact, how many were there, do you recall?

Chief STEVENSON. No; I don’t. I would say there were possibly, when I
went down the last time immediately before the transfer, I would say
there was possibly 20 to 30 back up the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Were any police officers in front of them?

Chief STEVENSON. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now were you present during the conversation between Chief
Curry and Sheriff Decker regarding the matter of who would transfer the
prisoner?

Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; I don’t believe I was in the chief’s office
at the time he called Sheriff Decker, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. About when did you learn that the police department would
actually accomplish the transfer itself?

Chief STEVENSON. It was shortly after he had talked to him. When he
advised Chief Batchelor and I that he had called him, I believe Chief
Batchelor was with me. He had called the sheriff, and the sheriff had
told him that he understood we were to transfer the prisoner, and he
told him if that was his wish, we would. As to what time in the morning
that was, I would say that was somewhere around 9 o’clock, Mr. Hubert,
the best I recollect.

Mr. HUBERT. What makes you fix it at 9 o’clock?

Chief STEVENSON. Because I know between 9 and 10 after that
conversation had taken place, Chief Curry and Chief Batchelor and I was
in on a part of the discussion of using an armored truck. And Chief
Curry instructed Chief Batchelor to see if he could contact an armored
truck company who could furnish us one. That was between 9 and 10 when
that was done.

Mr. HUBERT. Your thought is that the conversation between Curry and
Batchelor was before that, of course?

Chief STEVENSON. Between Curry and Batchelor?

Mr. HUBERT. And Decker, was before that?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes; that was when he found out that we would make the
transfer, or when he had advised Chief Batchelor and I that we would.

Mr. HUBERT. Now there was a change of plans from that, and I would like
you to state, if you would, what you know about the change of plans,
when it occurred, and so forth. That is to say, the decision not to use
the armored car.

Chief STEVENSON. I would say that was made, the first of my knowledge,
Mr. Hubert, at approximately 11:10. I went up into the homicide bureau
on the third floor. Chief Curry and Lieutenant Pierce were in the
homicide bureau. Oswald was there in Captain Fritz’ office. They had
been interrogating him. I went into the office. Chief Curry advised
me they had decided to use an automobile for the transfer and use the
truck as a decoy. The automobile was more maneuverable.

I said, “O.K., sir.” I turned around and went back to the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you any reason other than the maneuverability?
That was the whole reason?

Chief STEVENSON. That’s right. In view of the threats that we had had,
they were going to use the truck as a decoy, and that if they did
encounter a group of people on the streets, they could maneuver the car
more easily and get around them. I left and went to the basement to
notify the men in the basement; Captain Jones, who was my captain.

I met Chief Lumpkin in the hall, and as we went down on the elevator
I advised him of the change. Reached the basement. I advised Captain
Jones and Chief Batchelor. Now, I didn’t advise Captain Talbert because
I don’t believe I saw Captain Talbert there immediately upon my arrival
in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. So that as far as you know, then the only people who knew
of the change of plans was yourself, Chief Curry, Chief Lumpkin, and
then you told Batchelor?

Chief STEVENSON. I told Captain Jones and Chief Batchelor and Chief
Lumpkin on the way to the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Now the two detectives, Dougherty and Brown, who were to
drive the two cars, were they told what their role was to be?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes; not of my own knowledge, but I understand they
had gotten their instructions before they left the homicide office that
Dougherty would drive the car containing Oswald and that Brown would be
in the car immediately preceding him.

Mr. HUBERT. Now Rio Pierce was told too, I suppose?

Chief STEVENSON. He was instructed to get his car and park it in front
of the armored truck as if he was leading the armored truck with the
prisoner.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he aware that the armored truck would not contain
Oswald?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes, sir; he was in Captain Fritz’ office at the time
I was instructed that the change had been decided on to take him in a
car and use the truck as a decoy. He was to lead the truck down Elm
Street as had been planned. The car bearing Oswald would cut down west
on Main.

Mr. HUBERT. Brown and Dougherty got their instructions on the third
floor in Fritz’ office?

Chief STEVENSON. In the homicide office; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. They went down before you did then?

Chief STEVENSON. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And their instructions were to get the two cars facing
Commerce on the ramp and behind the armored car?

Chief STEVENSON. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall what, if anything, Captain Fritz said when he
came out of the jail office immediately prior to the movement of Oswald
out of the jail office?

Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; I do not. I was not, oh, I would say I was
within 25 feet or that far away from Captain Fritz when they emerged
from the jail office door.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember whether he asked if things were clear or
made any comment?

Chief STEVENSON. To my own knowledge, I don’t. I was told that he did
make that inquiry of possibly Lieutenant Wiggins, I believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your thought, Chief, as to what extent the failure
of security which occurred was caused by the decision to allow news
media into the basement?

Chief STEVENSON. That would be a little difficult question to answer.
Of course looking back at it, Mr. Hubert, we can see. But we had, we
felt, sufficient officers in there to secure it. And of course looking
back on it now, we can say yes. It would have been better for us if we
had not had the press down there. What percent it figured, what percent
of the blame you could lay to the fact that the press was down there
would be very difficult.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any consideration, if any consideration
was given, to establishing some security measures with reference to
single-man action against the prisoner rather than mob action against
the prisoner?

Chief STEVENSON. Nothing more than that all the officers are instructed
that in handling any prisoner charged with a serious crime they should
watch for anyone and everyone, any act that might look or seem to be of
a suspicious nature.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I was thinking particularly with reference to the
security of Oswald on the 24th. I mean was any consideration given,
to your knowledge, of establishing some security measure against a
single-man action?

Chief STEVENSON. None in particular. Nothing more than is general
procedure on transfer of a prisoner of that nature, or one who has
committed a crime in which some relative or friend might want to take
vengeance.

Mr. HUBERT. What is that?

Chief STEVENSON. That would be that everyone be kept away from the
prisoner, not be permitted to get to the prisoner.

Mr. HUBERT. Were any security measures to that end taken, do you know?

Chief STEVENSON. Nothing more than that the press, and I didn’t hear
this, was informed in the basement that none of them would attempt to
move close to the prisoner for the purpose of talking to him or taking
photographs.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if any consideration was given to using an
entirely different route of transfer than through the basement for the
purpose of avoiding the crowded condition in the basement?

Chief STEVENSON. If there was, I have no knowledge of it, Mr. Hubert.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear any discussion among anybody that the crowded
condition in the basement might pose a greater threat by a single man
than if the basement were cleared of everybody whatsoever?

Chief STEVENSON. I didn’t hear that subject discussed, I don’t believe;
no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever hear of any suggestion made that the press be
bypassed, as it were, and the prisoner removed in some other fashion?

Chief STEVENSON. Not to my knowledge; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any officers immediately prior to the time
Oswald appeared who had drawn their side arms?

Chief STEVENSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I understand that the first homicide cars may have had
shotguns or riot guns in them but were not visible.

Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; none were visible, not to my knowledge. I
could not see any of them. All of the homicide cars are equipped with
rifles and shotguns.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do at all with the arrangements
for the obtaining of the armored cars?

Chief STEVENSON. No, sir; Chief Batchelor handled that by telephone. He
consulted with me on it, but he handled it by telephone.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you present in the basement when the armored car
arrived?

Chief STEVENSON. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long before the actual shooting did you go down to the
basement?

Chief STEVENSON. The last time, I would say some 5, between 5 and 10
minutes, not over that.

Mr. HUBERT. In the plan to transfer Oswald down the elevator to the
jail office and in the jail corridor into the automobile waiting on the
ramp, was there any arrangement made so that Captain Fritz or others
would give a signal or would be given a signal as to when to come
through?

Chief STEVENSON. I understand--I didn’t hear this--but they called down
from upstairs, notified the jail sergeant that they were leaving the
third floor, and that the jail elevator sergeant observed the elevator
on its downward journey when he was there in the jail office. When the
jail elevator door opened, Captain Fritz stepped out, followed by the
men with the prisoner.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say the man in the jail office followed the
elevator down, you mean he followed the lights to show the progress?

Chief STEVENSON. Observed it as it came down; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Chief Stevenson, has there been any discussion between you
and I today which has not been covered in this deposition? I mean, did
we have any conversation or any discussion today that has not become a
part of the recorded deposition?

Chief STEVENSON. You mean our previous deposition?

Mr. HUBERT. No; today.

Chief STEVENSON. Not to my knowledge; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That is my recollection, that we simply exchanged
greetings, but other than that we have not spoken except during the
time that your deposition was being taken?

Chief STEVENSON. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, sir. Do you have anything you want to
add or say?

Chief STEVENSON. Mr. Hubert, I don’t know what it would be. I hope I
have covered everything.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, sir.



TESTIMONY OF ELGIN ENGLISH CRULL

The testimony of Elgin English Crull was taken at 1:40 p.m., on July
14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant
attorney general of Texas, was present.


Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of City Manager Elgin E. Crull. Mr.
Crull, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of
the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29,
1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with
that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Crull, the nature of the inquiry today is
to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now I understand, sir, that you have appeared here today by virtue of a
letter requesting you to do so, addressed by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general
counsel of the staff of the President’s Commission, is that correct?

Mr. CRULL. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive that, sir?

Mr. CRULL. I would have to guess. He didn’t stamp it. The letter is
dated July the 8th.

Mr. HUBERT. Sometime last week?

Mr. CRULL. I received it about last Thursday.

Mr. HUBERT. That would be July 9?

Mr. CRULL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, would you stand and raise your right hand,
please? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mr. CRULL. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state your full name?

Mr. CRULL. My name is Elgin English Crull.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir?

Mr. CRULL. Dallas, Tex., at 9424 Hobart.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your office?

Mr. CRULL. City manager, city of Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you held that position?

Mr. CRULL. For 12 years.

Mr. HUBERT. How old a man are you, sir?

Mr. CRULL. I am 55. I shall be 56 on the 17th of this month.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you a native of Texas?

Mr. CRULL. No; I am a native of Louisville, Ky.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you had previous experience in the field of city
management?

Mr. CRULL. I have been in the city of Dallas for 25 years.

Mr. HUBERT. In what capacity, prior to becoming city manager?

Mr. CRULL. As an assistant.

Mr. HUBERT. Assistant city manager?

Mr. CRULL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now Mr. Crull, we would like you to state, first of all,
for the record, what are the duties and responsibilities, and so forth,
of the city manager of the city of Dallas, the position which you have
held and been associated with for some 25 years.

Mr. CRULL. The city manager, under the Dallas Charter, is the chief
administrator of the city government, being charged with the overall
supervision of most of the departments of the government. There are
a few exceptions. Being charged with the financial control and the
operation of the budget, and the operation of the different departments.

The city manager is charged with the responsibility of appointing and
removing department heads, and assistant department heads, the balance
of the organization being under civil service.

He is the responsible official to the city council, which is the
policymaking body.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you appoint Chief Jesse E. Curry to his position?

Mr. CRULL. I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that a political appointment, or just how was it made?

Mr. CRULL. We don’t have any political appointments. We are a
council-manager government. We have no political parties as such. The
national parties take no activity in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. If you make an appointment, does the mayor or the city
council have anything to do with it by way of suggestion or rejection?

Mr. CRULL. No, sir; the responsibility for the appointment and for the
performance of the appointee is with the city manager. The council does
set salaries for all appointees.

Mr. HUBERT. It is possible, I suppose then, for the city council to
veto your appointment by not appropriating the money for the salary, is
that possible?

Mr. CRULL. It is possible. It hasn’t happened in 30 years.

Mr. HUBERT. The selection of Chief Curry was your own selection?

Mr. CRULL. That is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it from what you have said then, it was based upon
merit?

Mr. CRULL. In my opinion; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you explain just what is the ordinary effect of your
relationship with your department heads, including and particularly
the head of the police department insofar as the administration and
policies of the police department are concerned?

Mr. CRULL. The general administration is left to the chief and his
staff. They are trained. The administrative policies, the general
personnel regulations, and things of that nature first come out of
our office to the department, and then are followed by the different
departments. We do check through the budget office on any deviation in
policies. Department heads request changes in policies, purchasing,
financing, personnel, and operating.

In addition to that, the chief, since a police department is a delicate
operation with a particularly difficult public relations problem, would
discuss things which might have a particular public application so far
as public acceptance.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it within your power to overrule any decision or action
taken by the police department or the head thereof?

Mr. CRULL. Not any action. It would be within my power to overrule on
a policy matter and on administrative matters, but of course not those
things which were covered by law. Do I make myself clear?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but except for those duties and functions of the
police department that are established by law, you would have the
authority to direct the chief to do or not to do any action that you
thought?

Mr. CRULL. That’s right, any department head.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, Mr. Crull, I have previously handed you a document
consisting of three pages, which is a report of an interview of you by
FBI Agents Calvin Rice and John J. Flanagan, dated December 12, 1963,
which for the purpose of identification I have marked on the first page
in the right-hand margin thereof as follows:

“Dallas, Texas, July 14, 1964, Exhibit 1, deposition of Elgin Crull.”
I have signed my name below that, and on the second and third page I
have placed my initials in the lower right-hand corner of each of those
pages.

I think you have had an opportunity to read that document, and I will
now ask you if that document is correct as to the nature and effect
stated in the course of that interview, and whether it reflects the
facts as you remember them?

Mr. CRULL. In general, it does, but there are some details which are
inaccurate.

Mr. HUBERT. Now with respect to the details, I notice that you have
marked on the very last line of the second paragraph on page 1, a
little mark indicating that you wish to comment on that last line.
Would you state what you wish to say about it, please, sir?

Mr. CRULL. I believe that says simply that I went to the lake, to a
cabin. The only change is that there is no cabin. I have a boat on the
lake.

Mr. HUBERT. Other than that?

Mr. CRULL. Other than that, it is accurate.

Mr. HUBERT. Now in the next paragraph, which is the third paragraph on
page 1, you have put a little mark next to the statement that you heard
over the radio of Oswald having been shot.

Mr. CRULL. I did not hear it over the radio. I was called by the
operator of the marina, or one of his people, I do not remember which,
who had heard it over the radio.

Mr. HUBERT. Now on the next paragraph on page 1, that is to say,
paragraph 4, you marked next to the fifth line and also next to the
sixth, seventh, and eighth lines of that paragraph; first of all, with
reference to the statement that you had selected the prior chief of
police. That is to say, the chief of police prior to Chief Curry. Do
you have any comments to make about that?

Mr. CRULL. Yes; I didn’t select Chief Curry’s predecessor. He was
selected by my predecessor or one of my predecessors.

Mr. HUBERT. The chief of police who was in office prior to Chief Curry
was in that office when you became the city manager?

Mr. CRULL. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. You kept him on?

Mr. CRULL. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Or perhaps it was thought that that was an appointment of
him? But nevertheless, we have a clarification on that.

Now that sentence continues and reads as follows: That you never
interfered with the operations of the police department, leaving it
entirely in the chief’s hands, as he did with other city departments. I
think you indicated you wished to address yourself to that thought?

Mr. CRULL. I think perhaps that gives the wrong impression, that
departments and department heads operate entirely on their own without
any supervision at all.

Our department heads are experienced, and they do operate with a great
deal of freedom, but not without control and not without consultation
with the central office or manager’s office.

Mr. HUBERT. Now turning to the second page in the last paragraph,
eight lines from the bottom of the page, there is a reference to an
individual in the report who quotes you as saying he was a yellow-sheet
journalist. I think you wanted to comment on that?

Mr. CRULL. I think that phrase should be stricken, because it is not
my phrase. I don’t recall it, and it is not one I would use normally.
I think someone has attempted to portray what I thought of the
individual, has injected his phrase.

Mr. HUBERT. I guess to get the story complete, since you wish to delete
the specific phrase, it might be a good idea for you to tell us what
was your impression of him, in your own words.

Mr. CRULL. The publisher of this local newspaper is careless with
facts, and is inclined toward the sensational. And quite frankly, says
he does it deliberately in order to sell newspapers.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that a little further down in this same paragraph
there is a statement attributed to you by virtue of the fact that it in
direct quotes says as follows: “I can’t sell newspapers by telling the
truth.” Which according to this report, the FBI says you stated with
regard to that interview.

Mr. CRULL. That is accurate.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I see no other marks indicating that you wish to
comment upon any other part of Exhibit No. 1, so is it a fact then,
that other than the corrections that have been made, it is your opinion
that Exhibit No. 1 represents a true and faithful record of the
interview?

Mr. CRULL. With the exceptions, I think it is accurate.

Mr. HUBERT. Now while we were on the subject of this statement which
had appeared in the Oak Cliff Tribune with reference to the pressure
being brought upon Chief Curry in regard to his relationship with the
press, I would like for you, if you wish, to comment upon what role you
played with reference to the matter of control of the press and the
whole situation involving the press?

Mr. CRULL. I need some explanation. Over what period of time?

Mr. HUBERT. I am talking about the period of time from November the
22d, after the President was shot, until the 24th or 25th of November.

Mr. CRULL. After the President was shot, for quite some time I was
at the control station at the site of the luncheon. When I finally
returned to the city hall, I believed I reached there before the chief
did--I went to my own office, and I can’t say how long, later went
across to the police department, which is in an adjoining building.

Mr. HUBERT. But there is a corridor?

Mr. CRULL. Yes; at that time the press had almost taken over. These
were the visiting press. Our local press had been pushed off to one
side, and the visitors who had made the trip here with the press, plus
the television people, had flooded the third-floor corridors.

The chief’s office--the television people had opened the switchboard on
the corridor and their technicians had attached their equipment to the
electrical system, and they were pretty well set up. I do not know, but
I assume that all this happened while all the top men in the department
were out on the job. There was no reason for top-level people being
in the police department headquarters during the time of the Kennedy
visit. They each had other assignments.

Mr. HUBERT. When you went there and saw the condition you just
described, what time was it, about?

Mr. CRULL. I guess I would say it was about 3:30 in the afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any of the top officers of the police
department there on the third floor when you arrived?

Mr. CRULL. I can’t remember specifically. Later that afternoon, I
talked to Chief Curry when he did return.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did that conversation take place?

Mr. CRULL. In his office in the police department.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after your return?

Mr. CRULL. I guess this was 30 or 40 minutes. About 4 o’clock in the
afternoon.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you left the building and gone back?

Mr. CRULL. I had gone back to my office and come back again. He had
been to the airport with the President’s body. At that time Chief Curry
discussed the condition of things with the press, and I agreed with
him that we would continue our policy of trying to cooperate with the
press.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a formal meeting with the press, or how did
that take place?

Mr. CRULL. No; but they were--the offices are small, and the corridor
is not too big, and when you move that many television men and cameras
and newspaper reporters into the corridor and into the offices, there
was practically no space for anybody to work.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, what I was thinking about was where this conference
that you mentioned took place which apparently you witnessed between
Curry and members of the press?

Mr. CRULL. No; I gave you the wrong impression. It was a conference
between me and the chief, and Chief Batchelor, his assistant.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of that conference?

Mr. CRULL. The general situation. This was the first time I had had a
chance to talk to Chief Curry, since he had left to go to the hospital
after the President was killed, and we looked at the situation, and I
agreed with the chief that we would continue to try to cooperate with
the press, that there would have to be some order brought into the
situation, but that it was important that the police department not be
put in a position in which later people could charge that this man had
been beaten, and had been kept under cover, and not been allowed to see
him.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any consideration given to moving the press out
completely?

Mr. CRULL. No; this could have been an alternative, but we did not
consider it.

Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned that there was some discussion about
controlling the situation?

Mr. CRULL. We had to get them out of the offices and pushed back out
into the corridor so people could work. They flooded into the chief’s
office and the surrounding offices too.

Mr. HUBERT. They had been in the offices of the various divisions?

Mr. CRULL. No; at the end of that particular corridor are the top
administrative offices, the office of the chief, the assistant chief,
and the deputy chief, the four deputy chiefs, and his clerical help,
and that is the office into which they had largely flooded.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Oswald in custody on the third floor at that time?

Mr. CRULL. He was--this is hearsay--I understand in custody in the
homicide bureau at the other end of the hall on the same floor.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any consideration given as to the effect of the
congregation of the press in that area?

Mr. CRULL. The press was not being allowed to go beyond the midpoint in
the building.

Mr. HUBERT. How was that controlled?

Mr. CRULL. There were officers there. The homicide bureau was north of
the midpoint in the bureau, and there was at that time and most of the
time, I understand--again I am relying on hearsay--that that part of
the corridor was kept comparatively free.

Now I was there at one time, and I can’t say when, when they moved
Oswald from homicide back up to the jail, I believe. At that time he
was brought out through the corridor and did walk with the detectives
holding him through the press, which was, or part of the press.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to any members of the press or otherwise gain
any impression as to their attitude about what their rights were, and
so forth?

Mr. CRULL. I gained an impression from talking to some of the local
newspapermen who came up to me and said, “Please don’t blame us for
what is going on. We don’t act this way.”

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us something about what those actions were
that the local press seemed to be apologizing for?

Mr. CRULL. This is something I don’t know of my own knowledge at all.

Mr. HUBERT. I was thinking of what you yourself observed.

Mr. CRULL. Crowding, pushing, and attempting to take over. The free and
easy use of the electrical system, which I think I noticed that most.

Mr. HUBERT. What was some example of that?

Mr. CRULL. I didn’t check the details, but the switchboxes had been
opened and the technicians pretty obviously had hooked on any place
they could find a wire which would support the use.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know if any fuses were blown?

Mr. CRULL. I was told that there were.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss with Chief Curry or any of the top
officials of the police department the problem of the safety of the
prisoner?

Mr. CRULL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you discuss with them the problem of the matter of the
ultimate transfer of the prisoner to the county jail when and if he
were charged?

Mr. CRULL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you leave the police department quarters on the
22d?

Mr. CRULL. On Saturday?

Mr. HUBERT. I was thinking on Friday after this conference thing.

Mr. CRULL. I am sorry, I can’t be too accurate. I imagine I finally
left the city hall and periodically I checked back with the police
department either by telephone or actually by walking over there. I
imagine it was about 7 o’clock before we left and went home.

Mr. HUBERT. You think that in the interval before 7 o’clock, between
that conference you just described and 7 o’clock, that you contacted
the top officials of the police department either by walking over again
or by telephone?

Mr. CRULL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any further discussion had about the condition of the
news media?

Mr. CRULL. No; the only thing I was interested in most then, of course
as everyone else, was the progress being made with Oswald making the
case. I was pretty well snowed in my own office by telegrams, telephone
calls, and things which had come in in great numbers.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you went home about 7 o’clock?

Mr. CRULL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you return to the municipal building or police
department any more that night?

Mr. CRULL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any further communication with them the night
of the 22d?

Mr. CRULL. I have to keep this straight by days of the week.

Mr. HUBERT. This is Friday the 22d.

Mr. CRULL. This is the day of the President’s death?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. CRULL. No; before I left the police department the last time, they
told me they thought the case was pretty well wrapped up, and that
there would be no particular new developments, so after I left that
night, I went home that night, and the following morning I went to the
lake, Saturday morning.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time did you go to the lake?

Mr. CRULL. About 10 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not then go back to the police department?

Mr. CRULL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. So that after 7 o’clock, on Friday, you didn’t have any
occasion to observe the conditions in the city hall at all?

Mr. CRULL. No; not till Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any communication with the police department
after you got to the lake?

Mr. CRULL. Not until Sunday morning.

Mr. HUBERT. At what time did you have communication, and in what way on
Sunday morning?

Mr. CRULL. On Sunday morning, the specific time I can’t say. A member
of the marina staff called me, and said that the radio said that Oswald
had been shot. So I went to the marina office and used the telephone to
call Dallas. I was calling from the marina, Lake Texoma, just out of
Denison, Tex. I did call the office and I talked with Chief Stevenson,
and he told me, his words were, “I guess you have heard that we have
lost our prisoner.”

Then he told me something of the details, although it was then confused.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Oswald dead then, or did he tell you so?

Mr. CRULL. They didn’t know at that time. I was talking to them at the
police department, and Oswald had been moved to Parkland Hospital.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time it was?

Mr. CRULL. No; I can’t say. I waited at Texoma then, a short time,
until my wife came back to the lake. She had been in to Denison to
church, and shortly after noon we came back to Dallas. I came to the
city hall after changing my clothes at home, to the police department
and talked to our mayor then and found that he had received some
telephone threats, and that the police had a guard on him, that he
wanted to go to Washington for the President’s funeral, and that there
was some concern about it. So I left the city hall and went to the home
of the mayor, discussed his trip with him, decided on my own that he
should have protection all the way, called Chief Curry, and suggested
that he assign Lieutenant Revill, who was the head of the chief
intelligence section, to make the trip to Washington with Mayor Cabell.

Over the telephone the chief did this, and I waited at the mayor’s home
until Revill went to his house and collected his clothes. Then, in a
squad car, I went to the airport to see the mayor off on the airplane.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was that, about?

Mr. CRULL. Between 5:30 and 6 o’clock, something in that area. It was
still daylight.

Mr. HUBERT. That was on Sunday, the 24th?

Mr. CRULL. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you informed by anyone of any fears that existed
concerning the safety of Oswald?

Mr. CRULL. I didn’t hear this report until several days later that
there had been some.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already stated that in your discussions
with the head of the chief of police, the head of the police department
on Friday afternoon between 4 and 7, that there had not been discussed
or mentioned any fear concerning his safety, is that right?

Mr. CRULL. That’s correct. The concern expressed was that with the
whole world looking on, the thing be kept in the open as much as it
could be, with a reasonable degree of security. Quarterbacking the game
on Monday, apparently we were stressing the wrong point.

Mr. HUBERT. Apparently from the last part of your answer there, you
mentioned that since the whole world was looking on, the press should
be given as much freedom as possible? I think you mentioned consistent
with security, or something of that sort?

Mr. CRULL. Consistent with the safety of the prisoner; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, is it fair to say then that the actual safety of the
prisoner was a matter of discussion?

Mr. CRULL. No; I don’t think it would be accurate to say that it was a
matter of discussion. It was mentioned, but I doubt very seriously that
the staff of personnel was very concerned about it, because he was at
that time safely in the homicide bureau surrounded by detectives.

Mr. HUBERT. But you say it was mentioned, the safety of the prisoner?

Mr. CRULL. I think so; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember by whom?

Mr. CRULL. No; I don’t remember exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already said, too, that there was no
discussion of the method of transfer or the danger or perils that might
exist for the safety of the prisoner when that would come about?

Mr. CRULL. The method of transfer I did not discuss at all at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. And of course since you left on Saturday morning and did
not communicate or have any communication with the police until after
the shooting of Oswald, you knew nothing about any developments or
about any threats, and so forth, that had been made to him?

Mr. CRULL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor did you know what plans for transfer had been developed
and were prepared to be carried out?

Mr. CRULL. No; quite frankly, I think this belongs in it. I never
thought seriously of the prisoner being killed. I don’t know whether
others did or not, but I was concerned primarily with the case being
wrapped up, and solid, so that there would be no question about who
killed the President.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; there is one statement I have noticed in
the FBI report identified as Exhibit No. 1, on page 2, that I would
like, if you would, to clarify, because it is not really clear to me.
It is the third sentence in the last paragraph on the second page
reading as follows, to wit: “He--that is you--stated on November 25
he issued instructions to his subordinates and to Chief Curry and the
police department to make no comments concerning these matters. Insofar
as he knows, these instructions have been followed.” I would just like
to get a clarification of what you had in mind. It is not clear to me.

Mr. CRULL. This may be inaccurate in my timing. This came immediately
after the shooting of Oswald and the delivery of Ruby to the county
jail. A problem for the district attorney’s office, and for the
Commission, and at that time the press had announced that President
Johnson had announced that he would name such a Commission. He had
actually named Chief Justice Warren to head it. I am not certain.

And my instructions were that no police officer make any comment, that
no evidence be released by any police officer, that it would all be
turned over to the district attorney for his control, and I talked to
the district attorney by telephone and told him my instructions. This
was on Monday. Later, whether it was the same day or the following
day, the district attorney told the chief of police that he preferred
that that responsibility go to the--what is now known as the Warren
Commission. I don’t believe any member of the police department, but
with one exception, has yet violated the instructions on statements.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Crull, as you know, there has been at least one
statement to the effect that Chief Curry was “taking the wrap for
higher-ups who insisted that Oswald be transferred in daylight hours in
order to accommodate the press and other news media.”

Do you know anything about that at all, sir?

Mr. CRULL. So far as I am concerned, the higher ups would have to be
either the city manager or the mayor. So far as the city manager is
concerned, Chief Curry was given no instructions whatsoever as to the
transfer, and I feel quite confident that Mayor Cabell didn’t.

For two reasons, One, he says he didn’t, and the other, that under the
charter, the city manager’s responsibility for the chief of police
and the mayor doesn’t give direct orders. I think the statement is
completely untrue.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of anything that would indicate that Mayor
Cabell or any of the members of the council did exercise any kind of
pressure whatsoever on Chief Curry?

Mr. CRULL. I know of nothing, and I feel certain that it didn’t occur.

Mr. HUBERT. And you did not at all?

Mr. CRULL. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; is there anything else you would like to
add?

Mr. CRULL. No; I guess not. Nearly all my knowledge is of course
hearsay. I have no direct knowledge.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; then let me close the deposition with the
usual question. Am I correct in stating that nothing has been discussed
between us at any time since we first met, which was today, that has
not become subsequently a part of this deposition by being reported?

Mr. CRULL. That’s correct.

Mr. HUBERT. I certainly thank you, sir.

Mr. CRULL. Thank you.

Mr. HUBERT. Glad you came by.



TESTIMONY OF J. W. FRITZ

The testimony of J. W. Fritz was taken at 9 a.m., on July 14, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan
and Ervay Streets Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant
counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant attorney
general of Texas, was present.


Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Capt. J. W. Fritz. Captain Fritz,
my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the
general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29,
1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with
that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you.

I say to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Captain Fritz, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Captain Fritz, I understand that you are appearing here today by virtue
of a request made by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of
the President’s Commission, to Chief Curry asking that certain members
of the police department, including yourself, be present here.

In fact, under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness is
entitled to a 3-day written notice before his deposition can be taken,
which you have not had, at least directly from the Commission.

On the other hand, the rules also provide that you may waive that 3-day
written notice, and I ask you now whether you are willing to have your
deposition taken now and therefore waive the notice?

Captain FRITZ. I could tell you what happened over there. Is there any
question that I need advice on before I answer these questions? As far
as I am personally concerned, I don’t know of anything that I need any
advice on, but if you think that it is proper that I have advice or
counsel, I would be glad to do what you think is necessary.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think so, sir. Of course it is difficult for me to
determine that question. Let me put it this way.

Captain FRITZ. I don’t know of anything that I am hesitant to talk
about, or anything that I wouldn’t care about telling you.

Mr. HUBERT. If there is any time in the course of the deposition that
you would rather have advice on before you proceed, just say so and we
will stop at that point and let you have advice.

Captain FRITZ. I can’t think of anything that I need advice on, but if
you know something I don’t know, just tell me.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know. I don’t believe there is either, but it is
hard for me to tell whether you do or not.

Captain FRITZ. I know nothing about this entire case that the truth
won’t fit better than anything else. I don’t know of anything to be
hesitant about, unless there is something I haven’t heard of.

Mr. HUBERT. To come back to the question, are you willing to waive the
3-day written notice that normally you are entitled to?

Captain FRITZ. Yes, sir; I am willing. If there is nothing other
than just the facts of what happened over here at the time of the
assassination, I don’t care for telling you anything about that.

Mr. HUBERT. That is all we are going to talk about.

Captain FRITZ. All right, then.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Captain FRITZ. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Captain Fritz, you are----

Captain FRITZ. You have my previous testimony before the Commission?

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t believe I do, but I was going to state this, that
you have appeared before the Commission and given testimony there, and
I think your qualifications and your position and various statistics
concerning yourself were included in that. Therefore, I don’t believe
it is necessary for us to include any of that material here.

You are a captain of the Dallas police force in charge of the homicide
division?

Captain FRITZ. Yes. Homicide and robbery.

Mr. HUBERT. And have been for how many years? Many years?

Captain FRITZ. Many years; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. There are a couple of matters that I would like to ask
if you know. It may be that you do not know at all. Can you tell us
either from your own knowledge or from what would be normal under the
circumstances, what food was afforded to Oswald from the time he was
arrested on through, if you know?

Captain FRITZ. What food was furnished him?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Captain FRITZ. Of course the food in the jail, I wouldn’t know anything
about. I don’t have anything to do with the food in the jail.

I didn’t remember in the beginning until someone reminded me that we
fed him what he would eat while he was there at the office while we
were talking to him.

Mr. HUBERT. That was Friday on November 22 in the afternoon?

Captain FRITZ. Yes, sir; in the afternoon. He didn’t want a great deal.
He didn’t eat very much, but we brought him what he would eat and
drink. I believe he drank coffee a couple of times. I didn’t remember
those things until the officers reminded me in the office. We do that
for almost all prisoners.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have supper at the usual hour that day?

Captain FRITZ. I am not sure about that.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything else about the other meals that he may
have had during the Saturday and Sunday?

Captain FRITZ. Saturday and Sunday, I don’t know. I wouldn’t know about
any food other than the things that were brought into the office.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, that would be strictly up to the jail
personnel?

Captain FRITZ. Yes, sir; that’s right. They take care of the food in
the jail.

Mr. HUBERT. He was returned, I think, and the records would show that,
to the jail at mealtimes? In other words, the interrogation was stopped?

Captain FRITZ. I am not sure. I am not even sure about what time their
mealtimes are in the jail, and they might not have been. They could
have been or could not, but I do know that after being reminded of it
by the officers, he was given anything he wanted to eat or drink while
he was there in my office in the way of milk or coffee or anything of
that nature.

Mr. HUBERT. We also note that an attorney, Mr. H. Louis Nichols,
connected with the Dallas Bar Association, came to see Oswald at some
time. Do you know anything about that as to when he came?

Captain FRITZ. I heard of that, of course, but he didn’t come to my
office. He went to the chief’s office.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, the interview between Oswald and Mr. Nichols
did not take place when the prisoner was in your custody?

Captain FRITZ. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand also that at all times when the prisoner was
in your custody, he was on what is called a “Tempo” in the police
department? That is to say, a release from the jail custody to the
division custody, and also showed the return of the prisoner?

Captain FRITZ. Well, I would have to look at the record to tell whether
that is true, but you know he was brought to my office when he was
arrested. It is entirely possible he had never been to jail when he was
in my office first, so he naturally wouldn’t be under a Tempo, and he
was there for some time before he went to jail.

Mr. HUBERT. But after he----

Captain FRITZ. Then every time we bring him out, he would be on a
Tempo; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. There was an assembly of the press held late at night
of the 22d or possibly early morning of the 23d to which Oswald was
brought. Chief Curry and Henry Wade were there, and there were a number
of press personnel there. It was held in the assembly room. Did you go
to that?

Captain FRITZ. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know anything about it at all?

Captain FRITZ. I knew about it. I know that the chief told me to have
him carried to the assembly room, to the showup room, and I directed
some of my officers to take him down there, but I didn’t attend the
discussion.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Jack Ruby at all, or did you know?

Captain FRITZ. Did I know him before; no, sir, I did not. I never knew
him before, to the best of my knowledge. That is the first time I ever
saw him, when he was arrested. In fact, when the shooting happened, I
thought some officer had lost his reasoning and shot that man, because
of so many officers being down there.

And I asked one of the officers quickly if that was an officer that
shot him, and he said it was “Jack Ruby.” And I said, “Who is Jack
Ruby?” And he said, “He owns a club downtown.”

Mr. HUBERT. What officer was that?

Captain FRITZ. I don’t know, some of my officers.

Mr. HUBERT. Of course you have seen pictures?

Captain FRITZ. Several of the officers knew him, but I didn’t know him.

Mr. HUBERT. You have seen pictures of Ruby and perhaps you have seen
him in person since?

Captain FRITZ. Oh, yes; I have questioned him since then.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you search your memory and tell us whether you saw that
same person in and about the police department, particularly the third
floor, on the 22d and 23d?

Captain FRITZ. No, sir; I did not. I was very busy at that time. It is
possible I could have seen him. If I did, I wouldn’t have known him,
because there was 200 or 300 people I didn’t know.

There was a mob scene, a terrible thing, and I would have uniformed
officers help me to get from my office to the chief’s office, to the
elevator, and back, to get through the crowd, so he could have been in
that crowd and I wouldn’t know it. I have heard since, he was in the
crowd, and he probably was. I wouldn’t have known. I would have thought
he was another one of those men from the same crowd.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do with the planning of the exact
transfer of Oswald to the county jail?

Captain FRITZ. I can’t say that there was a meeting of any kind
planning the transfer, but if there was, I wasn’t there. At the time of
the transfer, when the chief told me that an armored money truck had
been provided to transfer him, I know it was a surprise to me, because
I had never heard of that. I had never heard of that before, and I told
the chief I didn’t think it was a good thing to try to move him in a
money wagon, because we don’t know the driver or anything about the
wagon, and it would be clumsy and awkward, and I didn’t think it was a
good idea at all.

I had nothing to do with the setting up of the plan, until my talk with
the chief just before the transfer, nor with the setting up of the
security in the basement. None of that comes under my heading.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you become aware that it would be the
responsibility of the Dallas Police Department rather than the
sheriff’s office to transfer Oswald?

Captain FRITZ. The day before the transfer.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean on Saturday?

Captain FRITZ. That would have been on Saturday, I believe. I don’t
want to be too positive about an hour or time, but in one of my
conversations with the chief, I asked him if the sheriff intended to
transfer him or if we would transfer him, and he told me that he had
been talking to the sheriff and we would transfer him.

Mr. HUBERT. You are pretty sure that would have been on Saturday and
not Sunday morning?

Captain FRITZ. No, sir; it wouldn’t have been on Sunday morning. It
would have been before Sunday morning, because some reference was made
about the time of transfer.

Mr. HUBERT. What reference was made about the time of transfer?

Captain FRITZ. Well, in one of my conversations with the chief, you
will see from my testimony, the chief asked me about transferring him
at 4 o’clock the day before, and I told him I didn’t think we could be
through with our questioning at that time.

At that time he asked me about 10 o’clock the next morning, and I told
him we thought we could be ready by 10 o’clock the next morning. We
went, I believe, an hour overtime with the interrogation, but we tried
to finish up by 10 o’clock the next morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there anything that makes you certain that the decision
that the Dallas Police Department would be responsible for the transfer
rather than the sheriff’s office, was made on Saturday rather than
Sunday?

Captain FRITZ. On Saturday rather than Sunday, I am sure that it was,
because I had talked to the sheriff one time myself during one of those
previous days, and I made some remark to him, something about the
transfer, and he told me to bring him on when we were ready; so I can’t
tell you exactly what conversation that was, but it was pretty well
understood we were to do the transferring.

Mr. HUBERT. That was a departure from the usual system?

Captain FRITZ. We transferred a great many of the prisoners in major
cases. It is not a usual thing. We don’t do it every day, but we often
do it in major cases. It isn’t the sheriff’s duty to transfer the
prisoner. It is usually done by a constable.

Mr. HUBERT. You get a constable under the authority of the sheriff?

Captain FRITZ. No, sir; under the authority of the constable. That
is the usual procedure. But it is not unusual in major cases where
we think that certain precautions should be used, for us to make the
transfer. In fact, I transferred Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. Why is it that you do it rather than the sheriff?

Captain FRITZ. It is just a matter of safety. It wouldn’t make a bit of
difference with us who transferred him, just so that he was transferred
safely and carefully. We don’t care. The sheriff sometimes transfers
them. If I call him; when I think a man is a little bit unruly, the
sheriff often handles the transfer.

I started to tell you, after they are filed on, they become the
sheriff’s prisoner. I couldn’t tell you about the rules of transfer,
why the constable transfers the other prisoners instead of the sheriff,
but that is the usual thing.

Mr. HUBERT. Would it have been possible for you to have made the
investigation and the interrogation of Oswald that was made on Saturday
and Sunday morning at the county jail rather than in the homicide
office?

Captain FRITZ. No, sir; that wouldn’t have been good at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us why?

Captain FRITZ. Well, there are many reasons. First our records wouldn’t
be there, would be one thing, and we wouldn’t have the witnesses at the
county jail for the lineups and would be out of contact with the office
for incoming information. The city hall would be quite a distance
from us. There are certain other things that might interfere with
questioning at the county jail. It was bad enough where we were.

Mr. HUBERT. As a matter of fact, where you were was a pretty bad
situation for it?

Captain FRITZ. Ordinarily it wouldn’t be such a bad situation. It was a
bad situation because of all that news media that had turned into a mob.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what I was getting at, whether or not any
consideration was given to moving Oswald to the county jail actually
to get away from the crowd and conduct the investigation under the
conditions that wouldn’t involve the crowd?

Captain FRITZ. No, sir; I don’t think that would have been good at all.
That would be completely away from the office and the records and the
some 15 or 20 officers that were required to conduct the investigation,
and we would have to move our entire organization to the county jail,
which would have been impossible.

Mr. HUBERT. Now did you tell Chief Curry that you were concerned about
the mass of people on the third floor?

Captain FRITZ. No. I am not sure that I spoke to him about this. I did
speak to some of the officers about giving us some help in the hall,
because the people were crowding us. They did assign two uniform men
to my door. I didn’t have to ask for that. Some of the chiefs did that.
They could no doubt see what I could see. They assigned two men to my
door, and kept the door locked, and we only admitted the officers and
people who should come in. Then they supplied some other officers to
move the people down the hall so we could get back, because we had to
go back and forth to the chief’s office or to the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware on Sunday the 24th that there was quite a
crowd of people in the basement, which was a part of the transfer route
that was being planned?

Captain FRITZ. I hadn’t been down there in the basement. I had been, as
I told you before, real busy in my office, and we had been continuing
our questioning in company with some Federal officers from the Secret
Service, and FBI, and at one time the marshal was over there, and some
of the postal authorities, trying to finish up our investigation as
fast as we could, and I hadn’t been down in the basement. But I had
been down there either the early morning or the night before, and I
had seen all the big lights set up in the basement and in the basement
door, so when the chief told me about the transfer, I told him we ought
to get rid of the lights and get the people out of the door that would
interfere with our getting to the car for the transfer. After I was
late getting started the chief came back to my office and asked if we
were ready to transfer him, I told him “When the security downstairs
was ready, we were ready.” And he said, “The lights have been moved
back and the people have been moved back in the basement, back of the
rail, and the other people have been moved across the street.” Which
would have given us ample room to get into the car and get rolling with
him. Once we had gotten into the car, we would have been all right.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you kept advised as to the plan of transfer on Sunday
morning?

Captain FRITZ. On what part of the plan, please?

Mr. HUBERT. The route and the vehicles.

Captain FRITZ. No, sir; I was not until the chief came to my office. I
suggested we move him in an unmarked car instead of that money wagon,
and the chief agreed with me, but as far as setting up the protection
in the basement and getting the money wagon, I had nothing to do with
that. I don’t know where that arrangement was made.

Mr. HUBERT. Your suggestion in regard to the crowd in the basement was
really with reference to the lights and so forth?

Captain FRITZ. The lights and the people, of course. Those people were
in our way every time we moved that man from my office to the jail and
back. We had to push him and pull him through the crowd.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever make a suggestion that the people, the news
media in the basement just be removed altogether so that there would be
nobody there?

Captain FRITZ. I didn’t handle that. I had nothing to do with the
arrangement in the basement. I did ask that they be moved out of our
way, and I believe there was a number of officers down there to do that.

I want to say this in fairness to the chief. As we started to leave,
he told me that the people were moved across the street, and the other
people were back of the railing, and I think he thought they were. I
think someone must have changed his order down there. We first called
down and they told us everything was all right. One of my officers
called on the telephone, before we went down to the jail. I kept my
officers back in the jail until I asked two officers outside the jail
if the security was good, and they said it was all right. But when
we walked out, they climbed over my car and we met the crowd and the
officers coming forward.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that before the shooting?

Captain FRITZ. Almost simultaneous. We had already gotten out of the
jail door when the shooting happened. We were only a few feet out into
the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it then, after you came out of the jail
door and walked down the corridor to the car, there was a general surge?

Captain FRITZ. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Six or five feet?

Captain FRITZ. Probably as far as far as from here to that door.

Mr. HUBERT. That was about 8 or 9 feet?

Captain FRITZ. Well, I don’t think, any more than that, probably. We
probably have the measurements.

Mr. HUBERT. The fact is that as soon as you began to come out, the
whole crowd surged forward?

Captain FRITZ. I had turned toward my car to reach for the door to open
the rear door, and I just told the two officers to put him right here
in the rear of the car when I heard the shot. Mr. Dhority was sitting
at the wheel. He was backing my car back, and he was being hindered in
backing the car by people getting around and behind it--both officers
and other people. And as I started to reach for the door, the shot was
fired.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand it then, when you came down there, you met
a condition which you had not anticipated in this sense. That it was
your impression that although the news media would be down there, they
would be back of that rail?

Captain FRITZ. Had they been back there, everything would have been all
right.

Mr. HUBERT. It is your impression that there would be nobody on the
jail side of the rail and nobody on the main ramp, Main Street ramp?

Captain FRITZ. That is right; we thought we had clearance there.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you say that when you came outside you caused Oswald
and the two guards with him, Mr. Leavelle and Mr. Graves, to halt in
the jail office and you went out and called out as to whether it was
clear?

Captain FRITZ. A lieutenant was standing there in uniform, and I asked
him, and he told me that the security was OK. A detective also gave the
same answer.

Mr. HUBERT. That would be Captain Talbert?

Captain FRITZ. No; it wasn’t Captain Talbert. I thought it was Captain
Talbert at first but it was Lieutenant Wiggins from the jail office.

Mr. HUBERT. You said there was another officer that you asked?

Captain FRITZ. Two officers answered me. A detective answered with this
lieutenant.

Mr. HUBERT. The answer was that it was all right?

Captain FRITZ. That it was all right. I presume they had been told it
was all right, because of the way they answered.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have a conversation just prior to the move about
the security?

Captain FRITZ. With the chief; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what he said and what you said about it?

Captain FRITZ. Yes. As I told you, I told him--he asked me were we
ready for the transfer. Chief Stevenson and several were there. And
Mr. Holmes from the Postal Inspection Office; and I believe one of the
Secret Service men; and one of the FBI officers; and several of my
officers.

And I told him we were ready to transfer him any time the security was
ready in the basement, and he said everything is all right.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say he would check further, or he just told you?

Captain FRITZ. He just told me. He didn’t tell me how he checked.

Mr. HUBERT. But he didn’t go and check again?

Captain FRITZ. I don’t know. I can’t answer that because he left my
office. He told me that he and Chief Stevenson would meet me at the
county jail.

Mr. HUBERT. Who made the decision as to the actual moment of moving?

Captain FRITZ. Of course, the chief asked me if we were ready. We got
ready, because I had told him the night before we would try to be ready
at 10 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. So you gave the signal to go?

Captain FRITZ. To these officers; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think there was one officer ahead of you when you all
went down in the elevator?

Captain FRITZ. Lieutenant Swain went out ahead of me, and I was behind
Lieutenant Swain, and then my officers and Oswald back of me, one
officer on each side, and one behind him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that group come down from the third floor?

Captain FRITZ. We all came down the inside jail elevator to the jail
office, and through the jail office and around the back of the jail
office. This brought the prisoner out of a side door that would put us
near our car.

Had we gone out of the other door, we would have had to go through a
hallway.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your concern about the news media being on the
main ramp and not behind the rail?

Captain FRITZ. Well, they interfered with our movement upstairs each
time we took Oswald to and from the jail, they would holler at him and
ask questions and say things to him that would have a tendency to, I
thought, aggravate him. I think part of it he seemed to enjoy, and part
of it he seemed to be irritated about.

Mr. HUBERT. Was your concern about the news media?

Captain FRITZ. My concern was to do all I could to prevent a killing or
an escape.

Mr. HUBERT. Was your concern about the news media not being on the
outside of the rail, or was it concerned with fear of Oswald’s safety,
or simply that these people were in the way?

Captain FRITZ. Both. They were in the way, and anyone that hindered us
or held us up could cause something to happen there.

We wouldn’t have been taking all those precautions if we hadn’t been
afraid something might happen.

I had even thought of the possibility of someone trying to take the
prisoner. That was the reason we handcuffed him to an officer.

In a case as serious as that, we certainly didn’t want to lose him
after a thing as serious as having had the President shot.

Mr. HUBERT. What I had in mind was, whether your concern was that the
position and closeness and mass of the news media there presented a
threat insofar as single-man action was concerned?

Captain FRITZ. We didn’t know many of those people. We knew very
few. We knew the local people. Many people were there from foreign
countries, and some of them looked unkempt. We didn’t know anything
about who they were.

For that reason, we wouldn’t want them up there with us at all if we
could avoid it, plus the fact that the camera lights were blinding,
and if you couldn’t see where you were going or what you were doing,
anything could happen.

We didn’t think we would have lights in our eyes, but we were blinded
by lights. Just about the time we left the jail office, the lights came
on, and were blinding.

We got along all right with the press here in Dallas. They do what we
ask. These people didn’t act that way. These people were excited and
acted more like a mob.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you indicate to any other officer or the chief that
there were some people there that you didn’t know who were unkempt and
that you were concerned about who they were?

Captain FRITZ. We talked about it among ourselves; the officers. We
didn’t have much time for talking. Those were busy times.

We gathered all the evidence the first afternoon and the next day, and
we had ample evidence to try that man the next morning if it had been
necessary to try him, so the officers were busy and we were all busy,
and we didn’t have time for that crowd or time to make a good appraisal
of them.

But I am just giving you a rough idea of how they looked. They didn’t
look like our local people.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you convey that information to any superior officer of
yours?

Captain FRITZ. I don’t suppose that I did. We remarked about them, but
I wouldn’t remember what the remarks were or who they were to.

It was well known to all officers. You didn’t have to tell anyone on
the third floor. They could see from the front office as well as they
could from my office because of the large crowd located outside my
office and in the entire hallway.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that a suggestion had been made that Oswald be
moved at night, possibly Friday night or Saturday night.

Captain FRITZ. Who made the suggestion? By whom, please, sir?

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t know. I think it was passed on to you, and I
understand that you recommended against it.

Captain FRITZ. A call at home--no, sir; I didn’t exactly recommend
against it. If you would ask me now, I really don’t favor nighttime
moves, because I can’t see any further at night than I can in the
daytime, and if a man shoots a man, you can see him just as far in
daylight as at night, and with proper security, you should be able to
move anyone through town without waiting for nightfall.

We don’t go to court at night, and we take prisoners back and forth
to court all the time during the daylight, so I wouldn’t see any
particular need to wait for nighttime.

I did have a call out to my home from a uniformed captain who told me
they had had a threat which sounded very much like a trick, the FBI got
a call, I believe, near the same time saying we had better transfer
him, that 200 or 300 men are going to take him away from us.

I certainly wouldn’t send a man out with two or three officers. Two or
three hundred men could be just as bad at night as during the day.

I told him he had better talk to the chief, because he was making some
preparations. And I found out later that he did. He called the chief,
but I don’t think he could reach him, and he decided not to transfer
him, I was told.

That call came after my call from the chief asking me about the 10
o’clock transfer.

Mr. HUBERT. There have been some reports that have reached us that
at the very moment of transfer, that is to say, when you were coming
out, and until the shooting, that the various police officers who were
lining the wall had their sidearms drawn and in their hands. Did you
see anything like that?

Captain FRITZ. I didn’t see anything like that as I came out. I think
probably what they are telling you about, is that some of the officers
drew their sidearms after the shot was fired.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any----

Captain FRITZ. I didn’t see anyone with a pistol in their hand as we
came out. If we had seen that, we probably would have gone back to the
jail, because we wouldn’t have known what an officer was doing with a
gun drawn. He had no need to have a gun out at that time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any shotguns visible or riot guns?

Captain FRITZ. No, sir; I didn’t. We had shotguns and rifles in my car
for this transfer. I had already put them on the floor of the car where
we could pick them up easily.

Mr. HUBERT. Were they visible?

Captain FRITZ. No, sir; they weren’t visible. There was an officer with
them.

Mr. HUBERT. Captain, I believe that is all I have. Is there anything
else you can say?

Captain FRITZ. I don’t know of anything other than one thing that the
chief mentioned to me. He said something about someone recommended
someone taking him off on the first floor of the elevator.

Mr. HUBERT. I don’t think there has been any discussion this morning
between us that has not been made a part of this deposition?

Captain FRITZ. I don’t believe so. I think all of this is in my
testimony in Washington. I feel sure that it is.

Anything else that you want to ask me about, feel free to do so.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much, Captain. That is all there is to it.



TESTIMONY OF SGT. ROLAND A. COX

The testimony of Sgt. Roland A. Cox was taken at 8:15 p.m., on July 13,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant
attorney general of Texas, was present.


Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Sgt. Roland A. Cox. Mr. Cox, my
name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general
counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29,
1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with
that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Cox, the nature of the inquiry is to
determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other
pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now, Mr. Cox, I think you appeared here tonight by virtue of a request
made to you to come by letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin,
general counsel on the staff of the President’s Commission, is that
correct?

Mr. COX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you appear here, I suppose, because Chief----

Mr. COX. Chief Batchelor.

Mr. HUBERT. Asked you to come?

Mr. COX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You are a reserve officer, I think?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Under the rules of the Commission, every person who appears
to have his deposition taken, as you are here tonight, has a right to
a 3-day written notice to appear. But those rules also provide that
you may waive that notice if you wish to do so. In view of the fact
that you have not received the 3-day notice, I ask you whether you are
willing to waive the notice and proceed to testify here tonight?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Then I ask you to rise and I will administer the oath to
you. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in
this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the
truth, so help you God?

Mr. COX. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name?

Mr. COX. Roland A. Cox.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live, sir?

Mr. COX. De Soto, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What street address?

Mr. COX. 311 Bob White.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation?

Mr. COX. Service department, Sears Roebuck.

Mr. HUBERT. In the city of Dallas?

Mr. COX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so employed?

Mr. COX. Since 1946.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on November 24, 1963?

Mr. COX. November 24, that Sunday? Wasn’t November 24 that Sunday?

Mr. HUBERT. Let me put the question to you this way. Were you, during
the period November 22 through 24, 1963, a member of the reserve force
of the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. What rank did you hold then?

Mr. COX. Sergeant.

Mr. HUBERT. And you still do?

Mr. COX. Yes; D-11.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been with the reserves?

Mr. COX. Got my 10-year pin about 3 months ago, I imagine.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you called to duty during the weekend of the
President’s assassination?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. What day were you called to duty?

Mr. COX. I believe I worked on that Friday night and again on Sunday.

Mr. HUBERT. That was by special call, or was that your regular reserve
night?

Mr. COX. No; that was a request by Barney Merle. That was what, Friday?

Mr. HUBERT. The 22d of November, and Saturday was the 23d.

Mr. COX. That would be--the third Friday is a regular night, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. I am looking at a calendar, and it seems that the 22d of
November of 1963 was the fourth Friday.

Mr. COX. No; it was not a regular night, I don’t believe. I believe
mine is the second Tuesday and third Friday.

Mr. HUBERT. So this was a special duty?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you arrive on Friday the 22d?

Mr. COX. Approximately 7.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in uniform?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you report to?

Mr. COX. Lieutenant Merle.

Mr. HUBERT. Is he a member of the reserve, or regular?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Member of the reserve?

Mr. COX. He is a lieutenant in the reserve.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you report to him?

Mr. COX. In the basement assembly room.

Mr. HUBERT. Then that was about 7 o’clock?

Mr. COX. Around 7; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive any assignment at that time?

Mr. COX. I went out with the traffic investigator about 8 or a little
after 8 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Between 7 and 8, that is, the time before you went out with
the traffic investigator, where were you and what were you doing?

Mr. COX. Well, I was in, I guess you would call it, I don’t know what
you would call it, the basement where they bring all the prisoners in.

Mr. HUBERT. In the jail office?

Mr. COX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever go up to the third floor?

Mr. COX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How long were you out on this assignment which began at 8
o’clock?

Mr. COX. We investigated one wreck, and I believe that was all, by the
city car barn, and then we picked up--well, a newspaperman, I can’t
think of where he was from, and we went down to the records building.
Well, that was a special assignment. The investigator has got to take
him around with him also on the investigation of the wreck. We took him
down to this records building and showed him that building, and I got
in about, well, 10 something. I had a call to call home, and I got in
about 10 something and made that call, and my wife wanted me to come
home, so I went on home.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Jack Ruby that night?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You were never up on the third floor at all that night?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you knew Ruby, didn’t you?

Mr. COX. I knew Ruby by working in a night club of his about 8 or 9
years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the Vegas?

Mr. COX. Vegas Club on Oak Lawn, I believe.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first meet him?

Mr. COX. First night I was out there.

Mr. HUBERT. You went out to get employment?

Mr. COX. No; I was sent by the city, special officer to the city’s
night club officers.

Mr. HUBERT. You were sent out there for what purpose?

Mr. COX. Keep those drunks quiet.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you come to be employed by Ruby?

Mr. COX. Special officer. They get a night club officer assigned by the
city to certain clubs to keep the trouble down.

Mr. HUBERT. So your employment by Ruby was really by way of an
assignment by the city?

Mr. COX. By the city’s special services.

Mr. HUBERT. By the city?

Mr. COX. Right. He pays them, and they pay us.

Mr. HUBERT. So you didn’t receive a check or money from Ruby?

Mr. COX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you work every night?

Mr. COX. No; Friday and Saturday most of the time. That is big nights.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you be in uniform then?

Mr. COX. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you so work for Ruby? Over what period?

Mr. COX. Oh, I don’t know how long I worked for Ruby. It wasn’t too
long. Not too long. They sent me different places.

Mr. HUBERT. You say the first time you worked there was about 8 years
ago?

Mr. COX. Eight or nine. It’s been a long time.

Mr. HUBERT. When was the last time?

Mr. COX. I didn’t work for him long. Maybe 3 months.

Mr. HUBERT. Just 3 months, and that was back 8 or 9 years ago?

Mr. COX. Eight or nine years ago.

Mr. HUBERT. And you haven’t seen him since, or you had not seen him
until----

Mr. COX. I have not seen him yet.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether other members of the Dallas police
force went to Ruby’s place during the period you are talking about when
you were employed by him?

Mr. COX. The only police that ever came there were individual squadmen
and liquor control boardmen. They come in, all of them.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any incidents where he served liquor to
them free?

Mr. COX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he seem to be particularly friendly with any of them?

Mr. COX. They didn’t talk to him too much. They always come to the
officer in charge.

Mr. HUBERT. They came to you?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I think you said that the last time you worked out
there at Ruby’s place would have been----

Mr. COX. It was around Christmas, or possibly--yes; about Christmas
time. Probably New Year’s, the last I worked, about 8 or 9 years ago. I
tell you, it is on record at the city hall. It’s just been too long.

Mr. HUBERT. You hadn’t seen him at all in the time since?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see him when you were on duty on Sunday morning?

Mr. COX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were you on duty then?

Mr. COX. Commerce Street, south side.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you come on duty?

Mr. COX. Around 10.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you in uniform?

Mr. COX. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your duty, and who placed you on it?

Mr. COX. Lieutenant Ben McCoy.

Mr. HUBERT. What was your specific duty at that point?

Mr. COX. Keep pedestrians back on the sidewalk and traffic moving.

Mr. HUBERT. So you were placed then on the opposite side of Commerce
Street from the Commerce Street exit?

Mr. COX. Yes; south side.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did you go on that duty?

Mr. COX. Must have been about 10 or 15 after 10.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay?

Mr. COX. Till after 11, I imagine.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, did you stay until after the shooting?

Mr. COX. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you there when the armored car came up?

Mr. COX. Yes; I held up traffic while that big one backed in.

Mr. HUBERT. What about the little one, where was it at that time?

Mr. COX. I believe the little one was parked against the curb; I
believe it was.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it on the same side of the street?

Mr. COX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it past the Commerce Street entrance?

Mr. COX. Yes; it was past the Commerce Street entrance, because there
was TV trucks sitting directly in front of the city hall on Commerce.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what time you actually left your post of
duty?

Mr. COX. I wouldn’t say.

Mr. HUBERT. About how long after the shooting did you leave?

Mr. COX. Maybe 20 minutes, until the crowd kind of dispersed.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you relieved by someone?

Mr. COX. No, sir; I mean there wasn’t anything else to do when the
crowd left.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Jack Ruby around that Commerce Street entrance
at anytime?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. On that day?

Mr. COX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now there was a publication by a man named Joe Sherman of
the Dallas Times Herald on November the 25th which indicated that you
had seen him, which of course is contrary to what you have just told
us. Could you explain anything about that?

Mr. COX. Yes; I will explain it to you. I was talking to a reserve
captain in the basement. Let me think of his name. Captain Kris, I
believe. We were talking about the thing happening, and also what
people had said, and this news reporter went from there. In other
words, that is the way he got it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to this man, Joe Sherman?

Mr. COX. Yes. He came into the conversation. Asked me if I knew Jack
Ruby, and I said I once worked for him at that night club, the Vegas
Club, and that is how that thing got in the paper. As far as me saying
he had been in the basement, or how he had been in there, that was just
strictly his say.

Mr. HUBERT. For the record so we get it straight, let me read to you
what he said, and then I am going to ask you if that is the truth or
not.

Police Sgt. R. A. Cox said he once worked for Jack Ruby as a special
officer in the night club he once operated on Oak Lawn. He said that
Ruby had a camera with him or when he entered the basement in the
Dallas police station Sunday morning. Did you tell that to Joe Sherman?

Mr. COX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I think you were about to explain.

Mr. COX. I told Kris somebody said “he even had a camera.” That is how
that happened. I didn’t say that he had one. I said “someone said he
had one.”

Mr. HUBERT. Now at what time did this conversation with Kris occur
which was overheard by Mr. Sherman?

Mr. COX. Well, it was after I came in out of the street.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said you came in out of the street about 20
minutes after?

Mr. COX. About 20 minutes after; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. You were standing where?

Mr. COX. In the basement. In fact, in that hall where it goes into
the----

Mr. HUBERT. So that your point is, you did not say this to Kris, but
this reporter just picked it up?

Mr. COX. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. The police reporter just heard you saying something about a
camera, but did not hear you say that the people or somebody was saying
that he had a camera?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. You had heard some people say he had a camera?

Mr. COX. Said he came in with the newsman.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you hear that from?

Mr. COX. Just conversation. There was a lot of talk after that happened.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t recall any particular person that you got that
from?

Mr. COX. No; sure don’t. I told Captain Solomon about it after it
happened, after that statement came out. I told him it wasn’t true,
right away.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first learn that it was Ruby involved?

Mr. COX. When I was in the street. It was on the radio. I was still
in the street when it came over the radio that someone had shot him,
and then when I walked down into the basement after I left the street,
someone said that Jack Ruby had shot Oswald. That is when I first knew
it.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you first hear anything about a camera.

Mr. COX. In the basement. There were a lot of people gathered talking,
a lot of officers. You know what I mean.

Mr. HUBERT. So in other words, the picture as I see it was that you
picked up from somebody that there was a story that Ruby had come in as
a newsman?

Mr. COX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. And that statement was made to Kris?

Mr. COX. I was talking to Kris.

Mr. HUBERT. And this reporter overheard it and painted it in that way?

Mr. COX. That is exactly right.

Mr. HUBERT. When this came out, did you notice the incorrectness of it?

Mr. COX. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do anything about it?

Mr. COX. I called Captain Solomon about it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Mr. Sherman, the reporter?

Mr. COX. No, sir; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Now in this same story, which is a story dated November
25, appearing in the Times Herald by Joe Sherman, there is a further
statement attributed to you which is actually a direct quote, according
to Mr. Sherman, and reads as follows: “He must have had a press card
with him, said Sergeant Cox. Otherwise, he wouldn’t have been allowed
in the basement at all. Our instructions were to keep everybody away
but pressmen with proper identification.” Now did you make that
statement?

Mr. COX. Yes, sir; that’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were simply then not stating a fact,
but an assumption that he must have?

Mr. COX. That’s right, because I couldn’t see how he got in the
basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any security measures used to prevent entry
into the basement?

Mr. COX. Yes, sir. I observed policemen on every door at the--when I
say the basement entrance, plus the entrance to the building through
the basement. There was an entrance on Commerce Street where you walk
down into a little hall.

Mr. HUBERT. There was a policeman stationed there?

Mr. COX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who he was?

Mr. COX. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he a reserve officer?

Mr. COX. No; a regular.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was stationed at the Commerce Street ramp entrance?

Mr. COX. I know one sergeant. His name is Mayo.

Mr. HUBERT. He is a reserve officer?

Mr. COX. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he there throughout the morning?

Mr. COX. He was there when I got there. I believe his name is L. W.
Mayo.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe any other policemen at other entrances such
as Main Street?

Mr. COX. Not on the Main Street side.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know anything about the security within the
basement?

Mr. COX. No; I was taken directly to the street to control traffic and
pedestrians out there.

Mr. HUBERT. Specifically, you did not see Ruby enter that building on
that day?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In fact, I repeat, or you repeat you haven’t seen him in
some 8 or 9 years?

Mr. COX. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t see him anywhere that day?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. On this story which appeared in the Dallas Times Herald
on Monday, November 25, on page A-35, which also, I don’t believe it
is a continuation of the previous story, because that previous story
appears on page A-9, and the previous story by Joe Sherman seems to
be concluded on that page. The reference to you in that same edition
of the Dallas Times Herald on page A-35 seems to be a continuation of
another story, and it refers to you in the same way, actually, that the
previous story referred to you. I am unable to tell whether it is a
story by Mr. Sherman or not, or whether it is a story by anyone else,
but I ask you whether or not you know of any way other than through
Sherman that the story on page A-35 could have been carried regarding
you, to wit, that you had worked for him and that you said Ruby had a
camera with him when he entered?

Mr. COX. You mean that would be in the Sunday paper, right?

Mr. HUBERT. No; that was the Monday paper.

Mr. COX. That would be the only way.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you never made any kind of statement
concerning Ruby except the one you have referred to already and
explained? That is, the one made to, or which was overheard by Sherman?

Mr. COX. That’s right; definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. This may be repeating the point, but this second apparent
interview which is on page A-35, makes the flat statement that one
police sergeant who worked for Ruby, and you are later identified as
being that one, said that Ruby had a camera with him, indicating that
you had seen him, and is it your opinion that this could only have come
from the overhearing of your conversation with Kris by this writer
called Sherman?

Mr. COX. Definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, to get the record straight on it, you never
saw Ruby enter with a camera?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor did you in fact say that he did?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, Sergeant Cox, anything else you want to comment?

Mr. COX. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. There has been no conversation between us, I think, tonight
other than that which was recorded, is that correct?

Mr. COX. That’s right.



TESTIMONY OF HAROLD J. FLEMING

The testimony of Harold J. Fleming was taken at 3:45 p.m., on July 13,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant
attorney general of Texas, was present.


Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Harold Fleming. Mr. Fleming,
my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the
general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29,
1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with
that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Fleming, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now, Mr. Fleming, you appear today by virtue of a letter request made
to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the staff of the
President’s Commission, which I understand you received as late as last
Friday?

Mr. FLEMING. July 10.

Mr. HUBERT. I ask you if you would take the oath, please?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to
give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?

Mr. FLEMING. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name, please, sir?

Mr. FLEMING. Harold J. Fleming.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?

Mr. FLEMING. 10611 Lennox Lane in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?

Mr. FLEMING. I am a corporate counsel and general operations manager of
Armored Motor Service, Inc.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is that company located?

Mr. FLEMING. Home offices are in Fort Worth, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have a branch of that operation in the city of
Dallas?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes; we do.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your connection with the Dallas operation?

Mr. FLEMING. I am general operations manager for the company, and the
Dallas office is one of our branches. By virtue of my position, I have
worked on operational problems and legal problems arising in the Dallas
city branch.

Mr. HUBERT. You are a lawyer?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state for the record, please, sir, the occupation
of Harold Fleming and Don Goin and Edward Dietrich?

Mr. FLEMING. Did you say Harold Fleming?

Mr. HUBERT. Bert Hall. I think his name is Marvin Hall.

Mr. FLEMING. Yes; Marvin E. Hall is vice president and branch manager
for our Dallas branch of Armored Motor Service, Inc. Both Goin and Ed
Dietrich are employees classified as guards or drivers. Mr. Don Goin
also has a title of assistant vault manager.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it that all three of these gentlemen work under your
authority?

Mr. FLEMING. In a broad sense, yes. However, just for the record, the
city branches are to a very large extent autonomous.

Mr. HUBERT. Well then, who was in charge actually of the Dallas city
branch here on November the 24th?

Mr. FLEMING. Mr. Hall is in charge of the Dallas city branch as such
when it functions in that capacity. This particular thing was a rather
unusual situation.

Mr. HUBERT. Now Mr. Fleming, I think I have heretofore shown you a
document which purports to be a report of an interview of you on June
26, 1964, by FBI Agent W. James Wood, which I have marked for the
purpose of identification on the first page as follows, to wit: On
the right-hand margin “Dallas, Texas, July 13, 1964, Exhibit No. 1,
Deposition of Harold Fleming,” under which I have signed my name. The
document actually consists of five pages, and on the succeeding second,
third, fourth, and fifth pages I have placed my initials on the lower
right-hand corner, and also the fifth page only of five lines on it.
I think you have had an opportunity, sir, to read this document now
identified as Exhibit No. 1, is that a fact?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I ask you now whether or not this document is a fair and
correct report of the interview had between you and FBI Agent Wood?

Mr. FLEMING. Substantially that portrays the interview with some very
minor qualifications.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you have indicated to me that there are some minor
qualifications that you would like to note, and I turn now to page 2,
the first full paragraph. I notice that you have made a small notation
next to the sentence reading as follows: “Hall told me they were in
possession of employees Donald Goin and Ed Dietrich.” Do you have any
comment to make on that?

Mr. FLEMING. Just to state that the name of Donald Goin was not
mentioned in the conversation I had with Mr. Hall. The name of Ed
Dietrich was discussed.

Mr. HUBERT. I notice that in the last sentence of that same paragraph,
the sentence reading as follows: “Fleming said Donald Goin was
telephonically contacted by Hall and given similar instructions.” Do
you wish to comment on that?

Mr. FLEMING. I would say that I said Goin was apparently telephonically
contacted.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you don’t know?

Mr. FLEMING. I was not aware that Goin had been contacted at the time.

Mr. HUBERT. Then I notice that on the first sentence of the last
paragraph on page 2 you also had a mark indicating that you wished to
comment upon it. I think your comment was with reference to a phrase
there about a conference breaking up. What was the comment you had?

Mr. FLEMING. Well, it was actually a conversation that we had at the
terminal. It was merely a matter of getting organized, and there was no
time for conferring. It was just decided what we were going to do. That
gives the inference that we may have had a long pow-wow. This was an
instantaneous decision.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I turn to page 3 and I notice that in the second or
middle paragraph of that page you have two lines, one I think with
reference to the first sentence which begins with the words “Hall
backed the truck ...” and ends with the words “... with the motor
running.” Was that the sentence? My question is, what comment do you
have to make with reference to that sentence?

Mr. FLEMING. It was not a question of being able to get the truck
further into the driveway. It was the fact that had it gone down the
ramp further, it would have been parked on an incline completely, and
fearing that the truck could possibly stall, by reason of letting out
the clutch too quickly. If we stalled, there might be a problem of
getting the truck started again, because we had a small problem at the
terminal in getting this truck to start initially. Just for the record,
a new battery had been placed in that truck on Saturday and was one of
these where the liquid has to be mixed up in the battery itself before
it is fully charged, and it hadn’t been moved enough and would not
fully charge. We were afraid the truck might stall on the ramp.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any difficulty, in fact, in starting the truck
when you left the terminal?

Mr. FLEMING. At the terminal we had to use a jump booster to get it
started there.

Mr. HUBERT. You left the same battery in the car?

Mr. FLEMING. Oh, yes; and that is why we had the second truck with us
also.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from that, that the truck could have actually gone
down further into the basement insofar as its clearance is concerned?

Mr. FLEMING. That’s right; it could have gone in possibly 10 to 15 feet
further.

Mr. HUBERT. It is a fact, though, that it could not have gone all the
way down?

Mr. FLEMING. No; it could not, because of the pipes overhead at the
lowest point of the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I notice in that same paragraph, which is the third
or middle paragraph, you have made a little mark next to a sentence
reading as follows: “He was not part of the Oswald guard force, but
was merely on duty to prevent unauthorized persons from entering and
leaving the garage.” Do you have a comment to make with reference to
that?

Mr. FLEMING. My comment is that I was not aware of what force this
officer belonged, and I am not in position to state whether he was part
of the Oswald guard force. I do know that he was on the outside of the
building at the entrance of the drive. This inferred that I assumed he
was not part of the guard force.

Mr. HUBERT. He was in uniform?

Mr. FLEMING. He was in uniform.

Mr. HUBERT. What was his position relative to the truck?

Mr. FLEMING. He was on the passenger’s side of the truck facing, with
the truck facing Commerce Street, that was parked in the driveway.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he in front of the truck, or by the side of the cab, or
where was he with reference to the truck?

Mr. FLEMING. He was at the side of the truck, opposite or near the cab
door. But he was stationed there at the time we drove the truck in.

Mr. HUBERT. So that when you backed the truck in, that policeman was
there, but you did not see him there thereafter?

Mr. FLEMING. Oh yes; he was there the whole time.

Mr. HUBERT. He was there the entire time?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. He would have been rather close then to Mr. Hall sitting in
the cab?

Mr. FLEMING. He was not sitting in the cab. He was standing on the
outside.

Mr. HUBERT. No; the policeman was standing on the outside?

Mr. FLEMING. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. But I say, that policeman would have been rather close to
Mr. Hall?

Mr. FLEMING. No. Mr. Hall was on the driver’s side of the cab rather.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, this was the passenger’s side?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I see. You observed he was there from the moment you all
arrived until after the shooting?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How much space was there between the truck and the wall on
the passenger’s side?

Mr. FLEMING. On the passenger’s side, there was not enough space for
anyone to get through into the building, because as I got out of the
passenger’s side, I had to go around to the driver’s side.

Mr. HUBERT. On the driver’s side, how much room?

Mr. FLEMING. There was room for a person to walk between the wall and
the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. I suppose we better put those dimensions in terms of feet.
Take the passenger’s side first.

Mr. FLEMING. I would estimate on the passenger’s side the clearance was
less than 6 inches. On the driver’s side, I would estimate it to be
around 2 feet.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know the width of the truck?

Mr. FLEMING. Not offhand.

Mr. HUBERT. Returning for the moment to the document which has been
marked Exhibit No. 1, I take it then that other than the corrections
that you made, that this document represents a fair statement of the
interview and represents therefore the truth, so far as you know it?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I would like, if possible, for you to tell us how you
fix the time of the call received by you from Chief Batchelor?

Mr. FLEMING. Well, I was in the process of shaving in order to go to
church at 10 o’clock. My wife answered the telephone, and I had to come
to the phone with lather on my face. And by reason of the timing, it
was between 9:30 and 9:40.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Chief Batchelor?

Mr. FLEMING. I had met Chief Batchelor within 30 days of this date.

Mr. HUBERT. Socially or----

Mr. FLEMING. No. I went to see Chief Batchelor on official business in
that at the time we had been apprised of a city ordinance concerning
the licensing of our people in Dallas. The company had operated in
Dallas since 1928 without a permit to carry firearms, and being aware
of that statute, I made an inquiry to determine if we had to be so
licensed. And having determined that we did, we then had the wheels in
motion to process our company’s license, and I conferred with Chief
Batchelor in an effort to clarify insurance and bond problems.

Mr. HUBERT. How long was your telephone conversation with Chief
Batchelor?

Mr. FLEMING. I would estimate 3 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. It was of course concerning the availability of your
armored trucks?

Mr. FLEMING. Chief Batchelor asked if I had been the person, or rather
if I were the person who had contacted him with reference to Armored
Motor Service, and I stated I had. And he said, “We would like to
borrow a truck from you people for the purpose of transporting this
prisoner.”

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him that the truck would be available?

Mr. FLEMING. I told him that the truck, we would be very happy to
oblige, but that it would take me sometime to make it available,
because I had the problem of determining who had keys and how we could
get it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you indicate to him how long it would be before the
truck would be available?

Mr. FLEMING. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you leave the matter then with him on that occasion?

Mr. FLEMING. I told him that I would get started immediately to locate
the people who had the keys, and parenthetically I might explain that
for security reasons the same person doesn’t have the keys all the
time. And I think neither the manager nor the assistant manager had it.
In other words, to save time, I told Chief Batchelor we had several
sizes of trucks, and asked that he take the measurements of the door
and have them ready so that I could call him when I arrived at the
terminal, to determine what size truck we should bring to transport the
prisoner. And I told him I would call him as soon as I learned how soon
we could be there.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do next?

Mr. FLEMING. I then attempted to call Mr. Hall by telephone, and Mr.
Paul Leonard, who is our operations manager for Dallas, by telephone.
Neither was in. Then I called Mr. Tom Mastin, Jr., president of Armored
Motor Service in Fort Worth, explained the commitment that I had made,
and asked if he had any suggestion as to whom I might call to find
out who had the keys. He suggested that Mr. Tom James, who is vice
president of Armored Motor Service in semiretirement, lived next door
to the church that Mr. Hall and Mr. James attended, and suggested that
I call Mr. James to get Mr. Hall personally and proceed from there,
which I subsequently did.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you call Mr. James and ask him to go over and get Mr.
Hall from the church?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes; and he had Mr. Hall call me from the church.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall about how long after that Mr. Hall called you
in fact?

Mr. FLEMING. It would have been within 5 minutes of my call to Mr.
James.

Mr. HUBERT. Then what did you tell Mr. Hall?

Mr. FLEMING. I asked if he knew where the keys were, and he said he did
not know. He thought Mr. Ed Dietrich had one set, and he would try to
make some calls to find out where the other set was. I suggested that
rather he give me Dietrich’s telephone number, and I suggested that I
would call Mr. Dietrich, and for him to get on the phone and try to
locate the other keys so that we could find somebody and move quickly.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you give us an estimate of the time of your
conversation with Mr. Hall relative to the time that you first spoke to
Batchelor?

Mr. FLEMING. I would estimate between 8 and 10 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. After you spoke to Batchelor?

Mr. FLEMING. After I finished talking with Mr. Batchelor.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you then call anyone else?

Mr. FLEMING. I called Mr. Dietrich. He was not in. I left a message for
him to call me as soon as he got into his house.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he call?

Mr. FLEMING. He called me again within about 5 minutes, and I asked him
to come directly. Asked him if he had keys, and he said, “Yes,” and
asked him to come directly to the Armored Motor Service terminal and
meet me there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he indicate that he had already received a call from
Mr. Hall to the same effect?

Mr. FLEMING. No; he did not. We didn’t discuss it. I assumed that he
had not.

Mr. HUBERT. I am not saying that he did.

Mr. FLEMING. He may have received a call after. I think Mr. Hall had
called the home, though, because he did indicate that he was not home.

Mr. HUBERT. Then I take it you finished dressing and went about the
accomplishment of the job?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time then did you get to the terminal?

Mr. FLEMING. I frankly can’t state what time I got there, because in
the haste I forgot my wrist watch and did not know. Judging from the
route I took, however, I would estimate it took me at least 20 to 25
minutes to reach there from my house. That could put it 10:25 to 10:30,
and this is strictly an estimate.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, after you had made the several calls that
you have talked about, it took you, I gather, another 15 to 20 minutes
to finish dressing?

Mr. FLEMING. No. I finished shaving in the meantime, and was gone as
soon as I got the call from Mr. Dietrich. It was a matter of 2 or 3
minutes before I left the house.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got to the terminal, was anyone there?

Mr. FLEMING. When I got to the terminal, Mr. Hall and Mr. Goin and Mr.
Dietrich all three were there.

Mr. HUBERT. Just relate in narrative form, if you wish, what happened
from the time you got there, on forward, if possible, giving us time
intervals, because one of the purposes of this deposition is to fix the
time.

Mr. FLEMING. Let me just meditate a minute. When I arrived, they were
preparing to take a small truck on the mission, because Mr. Dietrich
said that he had been in the basement of the city hall before and knew
that even a small truck would not clear the overhead pipes in the
basement. Based on that, Mr. Hall apparently had made a decision that
we would take the small truck rather than the large one.

Mr. HUBERT. Now was it Mr. Goin, you say, or Mr. Hall?

Mr. FLEMING. I said Mr. Hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Hall didn’t indicate to you that he had been to the
jail on that morning, but on some previous occasion?

Mr. FLEMING. No; it was Mr. Dietrich in an armored truck. We serviced
the city hall and numerous places.

Mr. HUBERT. But it wasn’t on this day? It was on a different occasion?

Mr. FLEMING. No; at a time previous.

Mr. HUBERT. Go ahead then.

Mr. FLEMING. But I indicated that the small truck would not be
satisfactory, having had a little experience in police work. I said
we need the large truck, and suggested they look it over, clean it
out, get bottles out of it, and so on. They indicated it would not
start, and I suggested that we attempt to start it. Mr. Goin then
got a battery and he and I, mostly he, got the thing connected, and
we started the motor. In the meantime, I called Chief Batchelor and
told him that we were at the terminal and we would be down shortly,
and I used that term, because we had not yet got the truck started. I
explained that there was no need to give me the dimensions because our
truck would not go all the way down the ramp anyhow, but we would bring
a large truck that would accommodate a larger force and would be down
within, I said within 10 to 15 minutes, this would have taken.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Batchelor indicate to you at that time which truck
would be used?

Mr. FLEMING. No; he did not indicate to me. We were telling him what
facilities we had.

Mr. HUBERT. You did in fact take both of them ultimately?

Mr. FLEMING. We took both trucks, because as I said, after we had
difficulty starting this one, we were afraid that the large truck might
for some reason stall, and we wanted a standby truck in the event that
should happen. I would estimate that we were at the terminal from 10 to
15 minutes prior to departing for the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. Now when you departed, what route did you take from the
terminal to the city hall?

Mr. FLEMING. I can’t tell you verbatim without referring to what was
stated there.

Mr. HUBERT. Is it stated in there?

Mr. FLEMING. It is stated there, and we went over that on the map. That
is the accurate route.

Mr. HUBERT. You are referring to page 3 of Exhibit No. 1 of your
deposition, the first paragraph in which the exact route is stated?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You were riding, I think, in the passenger’s seat with Mr.
Hall driving?

Mr. FLEMING. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now did you notice whether there was a shotgun in the usual
bracket for that purpose in the car?

Mr. FLEMING. No; there was no shotgun.

Mr. HUBERT. There was no shotgun?

Mr. FLEMING. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You would have seen it had it been there, because you were
seated in the passenger’s seat where it would normally be, next to
where it would be?

Mr. FLEMING. There were no guns in the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got to the Commerce Street entrance, what did you
do?

Mr. FLEMING. The truck was backed into----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get out?

Mr. FLEMING. Not until the truck was backed into the spot where it was,
where it stopped. I then got out of the passenger’s side, walked around
the front, and went into the basement of the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said it was on that occasion that you noticed
that it was impossible for you to go down between the truck and the
Harwood Street side of the ramp wall?

Mr. FLEMING. On the passenger’s side.

Mr. HUBERT. Because there simply wasn’t enough space?

Mr. FLEMING. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. So you had to go around in front of the truck and down the
driver’s side?

Mr. FLEMING. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did you meet there?

Mr. FLEMING. I don’t know who challenged me, but somebody in plain
clothes asked me who I was, and I told him, and within a matter of
seconds, Chief Batchelor and I met. I don’t know whether this gentleman
took me to him, or he was there waiting for me.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, before we go on from there, would you care to
estimate the time of arrival in front of the building and before you
started to back in?

Mr. FLEMING. As I stated, I have no idea what the time was. It took us;
it wouldn’t have taken us more than 5 minutes to get from the terminal
to the city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. You had no traffic problem?

Mr. FLEMING. No traffic problems at all.

Mr. HUBERT. Goin and Dietrich were in the other car?

Mr. FLEMING. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did they park?

Mr. FLEMING. They parked initially on the south side of Commerce Street
facing east diagonally from the entrance, diagonally to the left from
the entrance.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do between the time that you first arrived
until the firing of the shot? Perhaps I should ask you first, did you
hear the shot?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes; I heard the shot.

Mr. HUBERT. Then from the time you arrived until you heard the shot,
would you tell us what you did?

Mr. FLEMING. After I met Chief Batchelor, we both got into the back
end of the truck, and Chief lifted the mattresses from the bunks and
inspected the rear and asked about a mechanism we had there which was
a hydrovac brake, and I explained to him that was a brake for the back
end so that the men from the rear could control the brake system of the
car in the event of a holdup, and he commented, “We don’t want him to
sit over here, and we will put him on the other side.” I had the keys
and I couldn’t unlock the door to what we call the money compartment or
the center compartment of the truck. I have been speaking previously of
the rear compartment where the men stay.

I then left Chief Batchelor and went around to the outside, opened
the door to the center compartment, and then opened the door from
the center compartment to the rear from that side so that it could
be opened in the event that they wished to have a guard force in the
center compartment of the car. I then went to the street and talked to
Mr. Goin and explained that I thought that their car possibly should go
first, not having had any instructions from anybody, and sort of watch
the police car and determine where to go. I went back inside, again
went in the truck for some reason, I don’t know, and again came to the
outside. At that point there was a squad car in front of our parked
armored truck, and I asked the officer if his was going to be the lead
car, and he said, “So far as I know; yes.” Well, I was going to ask
this other armored car to go ahead, so I then went to Mr. Goin and
suggested that he follow the larger truck.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Goin was at that time seated or standing by the smaller
truck?

Mr. FLEMING. He was standing by his truck. From that point, I don’t
know why, I went over to the front of our truck toward the passenger’s
side, and it was at that point that I heard the noise that sounded like
a cap pistol.

Mr. HUBERT. When you first noticed the police car in front of the truck
in the street, was it just coming up, or was it already in place?

Mr. FLEMING. It was parked in front of our armored truck.

Mr. HUBERT. You were standing in front of your armored truck?

Mr. FLEMING. I was standing over on the passenger’s side of the armored
truck after I had talked with Goin about his relative position to our
truck once we started to move.

Mr. HUBERT. What I was thinking about is, that prior to talking to
Goin, you had seen the police car parking, you said, that you spoke to
the driver?

Mr. FLEMING. I came out. When I came out, the car was parked in front
of our truck, and I asked the officer driving if he was going to be the
lead car.

Mr. HUBERT. So that you walked from across the sidewalk to the car?

Mr. FLEMING. No, no. The police car was backed into the driveway.

Mr. HUBERT. Parked in the driveway and headed out?

Mr. FLEMING. The back end of the car was up against the front bumper of
our truck, so to speak.

Mr. HUBERT. So you simply walked to the driver’s seat and asked him
what he was going to do, and he told you what he said?

Mr. FLEMING. Then I crossed the street diagonally to talk to Goin, who
was standing on the outside of his car.

Mr. HUBERT. How far was Goin from you when you were standing talking to
the officer?

Mr. FLEMING. Well, the width of the street. Place it diagonal, and he
would be about three car lengths.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the car was on the other side of the street?

Mr. FLEMING. About three car lengths forward of our position, so it
would be the width of the street, plus whatever it would be.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you walked back?

Mr. FLEMING. I walked back.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, during all the time that you were at the Dallas police
jail, from the moment when you first arrived, did you see anyone going
down the driver’s side of the space between the armored car and the
wall?

Mr. FLEMING. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you in a position to say that had anyone walked down
that space, you would have seen him?

Mr. FLEMING. Most likely. There were no people at all on that side
of the street, save one colored lady at one point, and I don’t know
whether this was before or after the shooting, but everyone else was on
the sidewalk on the opposite side of the street.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. FLEMING. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. You have, of course, since that time seen pictures of him,
I suppose?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Movies perhaps, or television?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether you saw Jack Ruby or any person
resembling him at any time around there on that date?

Mr. FLEMING. I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware on that morning, or does your memory serve
you now in that regard as to whether there was one or more TV mobile
unit vans parked on the same side of Commerce Street as you were, but
in the Harwood Street direction?

Mr. FLEMING. As I recall, I observed one.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any people walk up to that car?

Mr. FLEMING. No; I did not. After I heard the shot, an individual came
up to me and asked me what happened. And I don’t know, he was a little
excited, and I was not in position to know, and subsequently I went
inside. He could have been from the mobile TV group, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you give some sort of description of that individual?

Mr. FLEMING. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any police guard or guards in the space or
protecting the space in any way between the driver’s side of the
armored car and the wall?

Mr. FLEMING. Not on the outside of the building.

Mr. HUBERT. There was some on the inside?

Mr. FLEMING. When I went in, someone challenged me as to my identity.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know whether that person stayed there?

Mr. FLEMING. I don’t know. I just know when I went in three times, I
was questioned.

Mr. HUBERT. You have mentioned that you went in and out a couple or
three times, and you now state to me that each time you went in or out,
you were questioned?

Mr. FLEMING. Yes; I was challenged.

Mr. HUBERT. That were on the driver’s side of the van?

Mr. FLEMING. On the inside of the quarters. Not on the outside.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it the same person that challenged you each time?

Mr. FLEMING. No.

Mr. HUBERT. What did the challenge consist of?

Mr. FLEMING. “Who are you? What do you want?” And I merely explained
that I was with the armored car. Of course the officer, whoever was
there, had seen me visiting with Chief Batchelor, and they knew as soon
as I mentioned that as to my identity, I presume.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I believe that is all. Do you have anything else you
want to say that you think is either pertinent or of interest to the
general inquiry?

Mr. FLEMING. I can’t think of anything.

Mr. HUBERT. I am sure we have not met before today?

Mr. FLEMING. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. We did have a short conversation off the record prior
to beginning the recordation of your testimony, but I ask you if it
is not a fact that everything that was discussed off the record was
subsequently discussed on the record?

Mr. FLEMING. It was.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir, thank you very much.



TESTIMONY OF DON EDWARD GOIN

The testimony of Don Edward Goin was taken at 7:10 p.m., on July 13,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant
attorney general of Texas, was present.


Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Donald Goin.

Mr. GOIN. Don E. Goin.

Mr. HUBERT. Don? It is not Donald?

Mr. GOIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Don E. Goin [spelling] G-o-i-n.

Mr. Goin, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory
staff of the general counsel of the President’s Commission. Under
the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and
the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure
adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with that
Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to
take a sworn deposition from you, among others.

I say to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Goin, the nature of the inquiry today is
to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

Now Mr. Goin, you appear today by virtue of a letter request made
to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel on the staff of the
President’s Commission. You received such notice?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When did you receive it?

Mr. GOIN. I received it Thursday.

Mr. HUBERT. That would have been the 9th?

Mr. GOIN. I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have it in your hand there?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Does it bear a stamp that indicates the date?

Mr. GOIN. Mailed the 8th.

Mr. HUBERT. From Washington, D.C.?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now will you stand and raise your hand and take the oath?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this
matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth,
so help you God?

Mr. GOIN. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you state your full name?

Mr. GOIN. Don Edward Goin.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside, sir?

Mr. GOIN. 1510 Crockett Circle.

Mr. HUBERT. Dallas?

Mr. GOIN. Carrollton, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. You just moved there, I think, today?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Your former address is 1800 Leonard Avenue?

Mr. GOIN. No; that is my business address.

Mr. HUBERT. Oh, that is your business address. That is where you
received the letter?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; that is right.

Mr. HUBERT. But your home address is as you just gave it?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation, sir?

Mr. GOIN. Armored car operator.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been so occupied?

Mr. GOIN. Approximately 3 years.

Mr. HUBERT. What organization?

Mr. GOIN. Armored Motor Service Co.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is your immediate superior with that organization?

Mr. GOIN. Bert Hall.

Mr. HUBERT. That is, Marvin E. Hall is the actual name?

Mr. GOIN. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know Mr. Harold Fleming?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who is he?

Mr. GOIN. The position with the company, one of the personal
administrators. He has another position as general operations manager,
I believe, something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. I was inquiring about your activities in connection with
the use of armored cars on November 24, 1963, in an anticipated plan
and movement of Lee Harvey Oswald from the Dallas city jail to the
county jail. In the first place, let me ask you, had you been to the
police department at all on November 24 until you went with the armored
car later?

Mr. GOIN. This was the Sunday morning in question?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. GOIN. No; I had not.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you first learn that your services would be needed
on that Sunday, November 24?

Mr. GOIN. Telephone call.

Mr. HUBERT. From whom?

Mr. GOIN. From Hall.

Mr. HUBERT. At what time?

Mr. GOIN. I don’t remember exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. What, approximately?

Mr. GOIN. I think it was 9 or 10 o’clock in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you at home?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; at home.

Mr. HUBERT. What did Mr. Hall ask or direct you to do?

Mr. GOIN. Asked if I would come to the office; meet him at the office.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what it was about on the phone?

Mr. GOIN. No; he didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he express to you the necessity for being there quickly?

Mr. GOIN. I honestly don’t recall. I just told him that I would be able
to meet him there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you immediately leave your home?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; in a matter of minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Is there any way at all you can think of of fixing the time
you left your home?

Mr. GOIN. No; I don’t believe so, not exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you say that it was within 5 minutes after you
finished your telephone conversation with Mr. Hall that you did leave
your home?

Mr. GOIN. I believe it would be about closer to 20 minutes after. As
I recall, I was in the process of shaving and I finished shaving and
dressing.

Mr. HUBERT. Where did you live at that time?

Mr. GOIN. 6329 Denham Court, Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you drive your own automobile down to the terminal?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; I did.

Mr. HUBERT. The terminal is located where?

Mr. GOIN. 1800 Leonard Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what route you followed in going from your
home to the terminal?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you state what it is, please?

Mr. GOIN. The expressway into town across Good-Latimer.

Mr. HUBERT. What expressway?

Mr. GOIN. South Central. Followed the freeway to South Central.

Mr. HUBERT. Then South Central to what?

Mr. GOIN. To Good-Latimer.

Mr. HUBERT. Good-Latimer?

Mr. GOIN. Good-Latimer.

Mr. HUBERT. Good-Latimer to what?

Mr. GOIN. Let’s see, Bryan to Fairmount, and to the office.

Mr. HUBERT. Fairmount to Leonard?

Mr. GOIN. No; Fairmount goes by the office, on the other side of the
office.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you estimate it took you to drive from your
home to the terminal?

Mr. GOIN. Approximately 15 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember about what time you got there at the
terminal?

Mr. GOIN. No; I don’t, offhand.

Mr. HUBERT. Was anyone there? Were you the first to get there?

Mr. GOIN. No; Mr. Dietrich was there, and I believe Mr. Hall also.

Mr. HUBERT. So was Mr. Fleming there?

Mr. GOIN. I can’t truthfully say.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, two people were there before you?

Mr. GOIN. I believe so.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you proceed to do then after you arrived? What
happened?

Mr. GOIN. I talked with Mr. Hall and was advised what we were going to
do. I had guessed what we would do, but I had not been advised before
then what we would do.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after you got there did Mr. Fleming arrive, do you
know?

Mr. GOIN. I can’t advise you there.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened next?

Mr. GOIN. We got keys to the armored trucks.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were the keys?

Mr. GOIN. In the office.

Mr. HUBERT. They weren’t kept on your person or the person of Mr.
Dietrich?

Mr. GOIN. No; I don’t believe so. They are kept in the office itself.

Mr. HUBERT. In a safe?

Mr. GOIN. In security; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You had keys to the office, though?

Mr. GOIN. No; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Who had the keys to the office?

Mr. GOIN. I imagine Mr. Hall.

Mr. HUBERT. In any case, the office was opened and the keys to the
truck or trucks were obtained?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who actually obtained those keys?

Mr. GOIN. I don’t recall that.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t do it yourself then?

Mr. GOIN. I don’t believe so. I may have. I don’t recall distinctly, I
am sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. Were the keys in a safe with a combination?

Mr. GOIN. No. Our office is a security lock.

Mr. HUBERT. So the keys were in a box on a string or something?

Mr. GOIN. On a keyboard in the office.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you all enter the office prior to the arrival of Mr.
Fleming, or after?

Mr. GOIN. I can’t really tell you that.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do, or what did the others do then? First of
all, you got the keys, and the next thing that happened was what?

Mr. GOIN. I believe we got the trucks and prepared to leave. There
was a little delay in some phone calls, I don’t remember, by Mr. Hall
or Mr. Fleming. I can’t really say what was involved. I remember Mr.
Dietrich now waiting a while.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you give us an estimate of how much time elapsed
between the time you arrived at the terminal and the time you began to
move to the city jail?

Mr. GOIN. Probably a half hour, I should say, possibly. I don’t recall.
I haven’t put any thought on this, I am sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any difficulty in starting either of the two
trucks?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; there was. Let’s see, I believe truck No. 46 had a new
battery and consequently hadn’t been serviced properly or serviced with
water and had to be used, what we call service cabled from another
battery.

Mr. HUBERT. To get the motor started?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that truck No. 46 the larger or the smaller of the two
trucks?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; it is our largest truck at present.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have anything to do with the starting up of the
truck, larger truck No. 46?

Mr. GOIN. I don’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do recall that it was necessary to use another
battery with cables to get it started?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; it was.

Mr. HUBERT. But who did the actual work of putting the other battery on
to the necessary parts of the truck to get the truck started?

Mr. GOIN. I really can’t give you an honest answer there.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know whether you did it yourself?

Mr. GOIN. I may have been a part of it, but I don’t distinctly remember
doing it, I am sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. But you do remember that the front hood was opened so that
the battery could be started?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How much of a delay did that occasion, do you know?

Mr. GOIN. Not exactly. Probably 15 minutes. It would be an estimate, I
am sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you travel from the terminal to the city jail?

Mr. GOIN. In--I was trying to think what truck number--in the other
truck.

Mr. HUBERT. In the smaller truck?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you driving?

Mr. GOIN. I believe I did.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was with you?

Mr. GOIN. Mr. Dietrich.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you precede the larger truck, or follow it?

Mr. GOIN. I don’t remember exactly.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the route that was used to go from the
terminal?

Mr. GOIN. Ross Avenue to Harwood, down Harwood to the Commerce Street
parking on Commerce.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got to Commerce Street, where did you park?

Mr. GOIN. I parked past the city jail, back exit.

Mr. HUBERT. There is an exit from the city jail coming up from the
basement which comes out on Commerce Street?

Mr. GOIN. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. You say you had come down Harwood and turned left onto
Commerce?

Mr. GOIN. I parked past the exit.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you park on the Main Street side of Commerce or the
opposite side?

Mr. GOIN. I parked on the north side of Commerce.

Mr. HUBERT. Now the north side of Commerce would be to the right of
Commerce or to the left, as you were going?

Mr. GOIN. As I were going, it would be to the left.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you park ahead or in back of the larger truck?

Mr. GOIN. The larger truck backed into the dock.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, was it ahead of you at that point, or
behind you?

Mr. GOIN. I don’t remember exactly whether I followed him or whether he
followed me.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you parked on the same side of the street of Commerce
Street as the exit, is that correct?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; that is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not park on the opposite side of the street where
the people were congregating, or did you?

Mr. GOIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Well now, when you parked there, did you ever move again
until ultimately you moved away after the shooting?

Mr. GOIN. No; not that I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, your car was parked then past the Commerce
Street exit from Harwood Street and on the side of the Commerce Street
to your left, rather than the opposite side of Commerce Street, is that
correct?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How far past the entrance were you parked, or exit rather?

Mr. GOIN. The exit, a couple of car lengths, I believe. I believe there
was a city or county car sitting behind us for a long time.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that a city or county car that was parked across the
exit and therefore immediately in front of the larger truck?

Mr. GOIN. I believe it was the car that backed in front of the armored
car.

Mr. HUBERT. That was the larger truck?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. About when, relative to the time you arrived, did this
other car park in front of the armored car?

Mr. GOIN. I can’t really give you an answer there, I am sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember when the shot was fired? Did you hear any
shot?

Mr. GOIN. No; I did not.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave your car at all at any time?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; left the armored truck.

Mr. HUBERT. The small one?

Mr. GOIN. The small armored truck on, I think, a couple of occasions
and walked back to the back of the truck standing for a moment or for a
few minutes, and walking back and getting back in.

Mr. HUBERT. But you never left the immediate vicinity of the small
armored truck?

Mr. GOIN. No; I didn’t get other than just a few feet at the most from
the armored truck.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you first learn of the shooting?

Mr. GOIN. I don’t remember exactly. The commotion began with someone
trying to get the Ford sedan in front of our big armored truck out of
the way, and I don’t recall exactly from what source I learned the
actual shooting, or maybe just overheard loud conversations, because I
didn’t have any direct conversation with anyone there.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember seeing yourself, the police car coming from
around Harwood onto Commerce and backing so that it was placed in front
of the large armored car? Did you see that yourself?

Mr. GOIN. Would you explain again?

Mr. HUBERT. You have stated to us that after the large armored truck
was backed partially into the ramp, that a police car, which I think
you said was a Ford, came around and backed up in front of the armored
truck, isn’t that correct?

Mr. GOIN. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you observed that yourself? Did you see it happen?

Mr. GOIN. Partially; if not all the way. I don’t recall exactly if I
was in the armored truck when this happened, or standing beside it.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, do I understand you to say that you are not sure
whether you actually saw it, but that you ultimately saw it in that
position?

Mr. GOIN. I am sure I saw it moving either in a rear view mirror or was
standing beside the truck and saw it, because I was observing as much
as I could.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after you had arrived at the parking position
originally did this Ford police car back up in front of the large truck?

Mr. GOIN. I can’t give you an answer to that, I am sorry.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been there some considerable time?

Mr. GOIN. I can’t really say.

Mr. HUBERT. How far were you--I think you have already stated you were
two car lengths from the exit?

Mr. GOIN. If I remember, approximately a couple car lengths.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there another police car in front of you, or back of
you parked in the same manner as you?

Mr. GOIN. I think before we left there was another police car that
moved in front of us, I believe, as a lead position. Because as I
recall us leaving, he was in front of us, or at least we started out
moving and he was in front of us.

Mr. HUBERT. Well now, I understand then that there was another police
car in addition to the Ford that backed up in front of the large truck,
that came and placed itself in front of you, is that correct?

Mr. GOIN. I believe there was.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that car come before or after the first police car came?

Mr. GOIN. I can’t be sure.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you double parked? I mean, were there cars parked on
your left along the curbing?

Mr. GOIN. I believe there were.

Mr. HUBERT. When you first drove up, who gave you instructions as to
where to stop?

Mr. GOIN. There was policemen on duty in the street.

Mr. HUBERT. And they told you where to stop?

Mr. GOIN. Yes. I am sure that we were double parked and there were
other cars on the side.

Mr. HUBERT. On your left?

Mr. GOIN. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there another car double parked in front of you when
you first drove up?

Mr. GOIN. I don’t think so.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, you say that the larger truck backed in into the
exit. You must have been ahead of it, isn’t that so? Otherwise it would
have had to back around you if it had been ahead of you, isn’t that so?

Mr. GOIN. I believe I followed the larger car. In the trend of thinking
back, I believe that I followed the larger car.

Mr. HUBERT. When your larger truck backed into the Commerce Street
exit, was it in front of you or in back of you?

Mr. GOIN. Well, if I followed it to the office, it must have been in
front, though I can’t remember distinctly that part of it.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Dietrich ever leave the smaller truck that you were
in with him?

Mr. GOIN. I believe he walked down beside the truck with me.

Mr. HUBERT. But no more than that?

Mr. GOIN. No; not that I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall Mr. Fleming coming out and giving you
instructions at any time as to what to do?

Mr. GOIN. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall Mr. Hall doing so?

Mr. GOIN. Mr. Hall?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. GOIN. It seems, I believe, Mr. Hall come out and spoke at one time.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what he said to you?

Mr. GOIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember what instructions you had as to what to do?

Mr. GOIN. I was in question as to what would actually take place most
of the time, as I recall.

Mr. HUBERT. You what?

Mr. GOIN. I was more or less uninformed as to what to do and was
waiting instructions.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever receive them?

Mr. GOIN. No. The commotion began.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the beginning of the commotion, did you get any
instructions as to what to do?

Mr. GOIN. I believe we talked. Mr. Hall had said something about
traveling down Main Street, and I do not remember if we had agreed
that there would be some other men probably want to ride in our truck,
security men. I don’t remember if that was discussed with some of the
officers there, or with just Mr. Dietrich and myself.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. GOIN. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen pictures of him in the press or on TV or
anything of that sort since?

Mr. GOIN. Yes; I have seen pictures in the paper.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody around there that day that either was
Ruby or looked like him?

Mr. GOIN. At that time, I certainly didn’t know him.

Mr. HUBERT. But now that you do know what he looks like, can you tell
us whether or not you saw anybody?

Mr. GOIN. I am sorry, I wouldn’t know him if I were to see him.

Mr. HUBERT. Now there was no conversation between us this afternoon? I
mean tonight, other than what has been recorded by the stenographer,
isn’t that correct?

Mr. GOIN. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you, Mr. Goin. I appreciate your coming down.

Mr. GOIN. Yes.



TESTIMONY OF MARVIN E. HALL

The testimony of Marvin E. Hall was taken at 3:10 p.m., on July 13,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant
attorney general of Texas, was present.


Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Marvin E. Hall. Mr. Hall,
my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the
general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29,
1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with
that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you. I say to you now that the general
nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and
report upon the facts relevant to the assassination of President
Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Hall, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald, and
any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.
Now Mr. Hall, you appear today, I believe, by virtue of a specific
request made by a letter addressed to you by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general
counsel, of the staff of the President’s Commission. I understand that
you received that letter last Friday, July 10, is that correct?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. HALL. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you please state your full name, please, sir?

Mr. HALL. Marvin E. Hall.

Mr. HUBERT. I understand that while that is your full name, you are
generally known by the name of Bert Hall, B-e-r-t?

Mr. HALL. That’s right; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Which is sort of an official nickname?

Mr. HALL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you live?

Mr. HALL. 4112 Sun Valley.

Mr. HUBERT. How old are you?

Mr. HALL. Forty-three.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your occupation now?

Mr. HALL. City manager of Armored Motor Service in Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that the same occupation that you had on November 24,
1963?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been connected with that company?

Mr. HALL. Seven years. The reason I hesitate, I am also vice president
of the company, but that is not really the main function here in Dallas.

Mr. HUBERT. As manager of the company, do you have occasion to actually
drive the vehicles that are used by the company? Did you often do so
prior to November 24? Had you done so frequently?

Mr. HALL. Not frequently; as manager of the company, it is our
obligation to make sure all our vehicles are in running order. We test
drive them, periodically, because we go out on trips with the men. The
capacity of driving a vehicle is part of knowing what is going on.

Mr. HUBERT. Prior to the time you became manager, were you connected
with the company as a driver?

Mr. HALL. No; as a salesman.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you were interviewed by the FBI on June 24, 1964,
the FBI agents interviewing you being Mr. W. James Wood and Manning
Clements. I have, heretofore, a few minutes ago, handed to you a report
by those two FBI agents of their interview with you. For the purpose
of identification, I have marked the document, which consists of four
pages, on the first page as follows, to wit: “Dallas, Texas, July 13,
1964, Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Bert Hall.” Under which I have
signed my name, and I have placed my initials on the succeeding three
pages in the lower right-hand corner of each page. I think you have had
an opportunity, have you not, sir, to read this 4-page document now
marked as Exhibit No. 1?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. I ask you if this document is correct, or whether you
desire to make any corrections or modifications or additions to this
document?

Mr. HALL. There are minor adjustments to it; sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you have called my attention to the fourth paragraph on
page 1 of that document, which describes Ed Dietrich as assistant crew
chief. What comment have you to make as to that statement?

Mr. HALL. Only that he is crew chief; and I may have been misunderstood
by the two men on that.

Mr. HUBERT. Was he crew chief on November 24?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So that actually the word “Assistant” should be deleted?

Mr. HALL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I see no marks on page 2, and I assume that you have no
comment to make other than that it is correct?

Mr. HALL. Correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I turn to page 3, and in the second paragraph you have
a mark with reference to the first sentence. I ask you what comment you
have to make about that first sentence, which begins with the words
“Shortly after” and ends with the words “with a shotgun”?

Mr. HALL. Only that the sentence is worded “A police officer who at
this time Hall never knew ...”, and I merely point out that I met the
man that morning, and knew his name at that moment, but have forgotten
what it was as of this time.

Mr. HUBERT. But you have no doubt about his identity as a police
officer?

Mr. HALL. Definitely not.

Mr. HUBERT. He was in uniform?

Mr. HALL. Definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any other comments to make about that sentence?

Mr. HALL. I remember seeing he was armed with a shotgun, and I am not
positive whether the shotgun was his or was a part of the equipment in
the truck, since we do have a shotgun in a bracket alongside the seat
he occupied.

Mr. HUBERT. On which side of the seat he occupied is that gun bracket
placed?

Mr. HALL. Right side.

Mr. HUBERT. On his right side, so that when getting into the seat he
was sitting in, he would have to cross over or climb over the bracket,
as it were?

Mr. HALL. Not really.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you say he had a shotgun in his hand. You used the
words “armed with a shotgun” and you said you weren’t sure it was the
shotgun that normally comes with the truck or one which he brought
himself. I take it, therefore, that you saw him with the shotgun in his
hand?

Mr. HALL. I believe so; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t know whether the normal or regular shotgun that
normally goes along with the truck was in the bracket as well as the
one that he had in his hand?

Mr. HALL. I am not real sure. That is the normal thing to do. If you
and I were to crawl into that seat with the purpose intended that we
were sitting there for, we would have unbuckled the shotgun and sat
there with it. It is in that handy a place.

Mr. HUBERT. But he did have a shotgun?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I notice that on page 3, also, you have a mark next to
the third paragraph, and I think that your comment was with reference
to the first sentence of that third paragraph beginning with the words
“Hall said,” and ending with the words “parked there.” What comment
have you to say there about that, sir?

Mr. HALL. The statement says that Hall recalls that Fleming and the
patrolman with the shotgun were the only persons to enter or leave the
garage through the Commerce Street entrance. I am a little vague, but I
think Chief Batchelor also passed by my line of vision at that time. I
do remember seeing Chief Batchelor and nodding to him.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, other than that, is the statement correct?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, to put it affirmatively then, other than the
possibility that Chief Batchelor passed by, you do not think that
anyone else did?

Mr. HALL. No, sir; that is correct.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I see no further marks, and I take it, therefore, that
the rest of the statement which has been identified, or the report
which has been identified as statement 1, is correct as modified?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now do you recall when you first got any notice whatsoever
about this function that you ultimately performed on November 24?

Mr. HALL. Approximately 9:45 in the morning.

Mr. HUBERT. You fix that in what way; sir?

Mr. HALL. I fixed that because our Sunday school class was just
commencing. I was going into the classroom that I normally would teach,
when I received a call from the church office that I was wanted on the
telephone.

Mr. HUBERT. What time was your school scheduled to begin?

Mr. HALL. 9:50.

Mr. HUBERT. 9:50?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Then you were going in at approximately 5 minutes before
that?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you actually reached the class yet?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; I was in the classroom itself.

Mr. HUBERT. But the class had not yet begun?

Mr. HALL. That’s right.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you normally start on time?

Mr. HALL. Normally; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. This call came about how long before you would normally
have started?

Mr. HALL. Five minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was the call from, did you say?

Mr. HALL. Mr. Fleming.

Mr. HUBERT. What is his first name?

Mr. HALL. Harold.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the nature of the call?

Mr. HALL. We were asked to provide a truck for Chief Batchelor as soon
as possible.

Mr. HUBERT. That is Fleming told you that on the phone, is that correct?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he tell you what the purpose for the use of the car
would be?

Mr. HALL. Of this I am not real certain, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How long was your telephone conversation with Fleming?

Mr. HALL. Approximately a minute.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do then?

Mr. HALL. I sat for a moment trying to reconstruct the previous
evenings arrangement to remember who would have keys to the terminal,
since there are only two sets in existence. The most logical choice
seemed to be Ed Dietrich and Don Goin. I called Ed Dietrich’s home. He
had just gone down to the corner. So I called Don Goin’s home and told
him to meet me down at the terminal.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you tell him what you wanted to meet him about?

Mr. HALL. I am not positive; sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he have a set of keys?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; he would have come anyway. It is fairly usual to
call one of our people and say, “I will meet you at the terminal in a
few minutes, we have a problem.”

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you speak to Goin?

Mr. HALL. Approximately a minute. Then I called Ed Dietrich’s home back
and asked him to join us.

Mr. HUBERT. You got him on the second time?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that?

Mr. HALL. Approximately 10 o’clock.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you then immediately leave the church?

Mr. HALL. I think I called Harold Fleming back, and I assured him that
we could produce and agreed to meet down at the terminal. When his call
first came in, there was a little bit of doubt in my mind that I could
reach anybody on a moment’s notice, afraid that every man we have would
be out of pocket as of Sunday morning.

Mr. HUBERT. So that after speaking to Dietrich, you then made a third
phone call?

Mr. HALL. I talked to Fleming twice; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time did you leave the church then?

Mr. HALL. There is a period of time of 30 minutes that I am not
real positive. The time that the first call came in at 9:45--I feel
reasonably sure that I was down at the terminal by 10:30. Exactly the
time I left the church would be close to 10:05, because my wife had
just started her Sunday school class.

Mr. HUBERT. What time did that begin?

Mr. HALL. 9:50; and I peeked into her room to quietly tell her to get
home as best she could, that I had to go to work.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is the church located?

Mr. HALL. At the corner of Colorado and Turner in Oak Cliff.

Mr. HUBERT. Where is the terminal?

Mr. HALL. 1800 Leonard.

Mr. HUBERT. How did you drive?

Mr. HALL. About a 10-minute drive?

Mr. HUBERT. How did you go down?

Mr. HALL. In the car assigned to me.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean what route did you take?

Mr. HALL. Turner north to Greenbrier; Greenbrier east on Sylvan; Sylvan
north to the Fort Worth cutoff; Fort Worth cutoff east on into town,
proceeding up Commerce Street to Field; turning north on Field to Ross;
and east to Ross to Leonard; north on Leonard to Flora. This is the
corner the terminal is located. The reason that I feel fairly sure of
that route is we are all creatures of habit, and that would be the way
to go, especially in a hurry.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you driving faster than normal?

Mr. HALL. Not really.

Mr. HUBERT. So you think the trip took you about 10 minutes, you said?

Mr. HALL. Approximately; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. That would make the time of arrival at the terminal then
about 10:15 or 10:20?

Mr. HALL. This could be so; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When you got there, was anyone else there?

Mr. HALL. I believe I was the first.

Mr. HUBERT. Who got there next?

Mr. HALL. I think the order of arrival was me, Dietrich, Goin, Fleming.

Mr. HUBERT. Can you tell us anything about the time intervals between
their arrival after yours?

Mr. HALL. Not really; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have stated that all four of you were there at
the terminal, however, at 10:30?

Mr. HALL. Approximately so; yes, sir. I remember feeling quite proud of
the quick assembly time on a normally off-duty time.

Mr. HUBERT. What occurred after the four of you were there? Do you
remember whether there were any telephone calls to Chief Batchelor?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; I believe there were. I think Fleming called Chief
Batchelor at least once.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the nature of that call?

Mr. HALL. I am not sure whether Fleming got a hold of Chief Batchelor
or not. I think it was to determine if one of the smaller trucks would
be acceptable.

Mr. HUBERT. What was decided upon. What actually happened?

Mr. HALL. The impression we received was that the larger truck would
have to be the one used.

Mr. HUBERT. Did more than one truck go?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; I decided to have the smaller truck accompany
the larger truck as a standby. This procedure we use in all cases of
tension for double protection. We frequently send two vehicles when one
would be sufficient to handle the load.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know when you left the terminal with the two trucks?

Mr. HALL. Approximately 10:50--10:45 or 10:50.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you estimate that between 15 and 20 minutes between
the time all four of you were there until the two-vehicle convoy
proceeded to the Dallas Police Department?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now who was driving the larger truck?

Mr. HALL. I was, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was anyone with you?

Mr. HALL. Mr. Fleming.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was driving the other truck, the small one?

Mr. HALL. Don Goin, I believe; sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was Dietrich with him?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I gather from what you said, it was either Dietrich or Goin
driving the other car?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; I feel pretty sure it was Goin.

Mr. HUBERT. Now how did you proceed from the terminal to the Dallas
Police Department building?

Mr. HALL. We, in convoy fashion, the large truck leading the small
truck, went south on Leonard to Ross, west on Ross to Pearl, south on
Pearl to Main, west on Main to Harwood, south on Harwood to Commerce,
east on Commerce just past the city hall basement entrance, and I then
backed the large truck into the entranceway and indicated to the small
truck to park just ahead of the passageway in reserve.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been given any instructions to back in prior to
leaving the terminal?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; we had. We had had that understanding.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, when you got to the Dallas Police, Commerce
Street entrance, you did not wait for any further instructions, but
immediately proceeded to back in?

Mr. HALL. That’s right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Fleming or anyone else assist you in backing in by
way of directions and signal, and so forth?

Mr. HALL. Yes; Mr. Fleming helped with the traffic control, and then
remained at the rear of the truck for further instructions.

Mr. HUBERT. Now was that the first time that day you had been to the
police department?

Mr. HALL. Oh, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did anyone of you, including yourself, have on a grayish or
any other type of overcoat when you were at the police department?

Mr. HALL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you ever seen any pictures of Jack Ruby?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I can tell by looking at you that you do not resemble Jack
Ruby.

Mr. HALL. Thank you.

Mr. HUBERT. But I wanted you to express an opinion as to the other
gentleman.

Mr. HALL. Definitely not. Goin and Dietrich were in uniform. Our
standard uniform is khaki color, with .38 pistols at their side. Mr.
Fleming was in a suit, and he is tall and rather thin. I would guess at
least 6 inches taller than Mr. Ruby. There seems to be no resemblance.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice any TV mobile van units nearby there?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you or Mr. Fleming or Mr. Goin or Mr. Dietrich ever
approach any of those units, do you know?

Mr. HALL. For no reason; no, sir. There was one parked in the way.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, just describe it.

Mr. HALL. One parked at the entrance to my right. As I pulled past the
entrance and backed in, there was a TV camera stationed on top of a
truck approximately here.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, between you and Harwood Street?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Almost up to the Commerce entrance?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; there were a number of people, onlookers. All of
them had been regimented over on the other side of the street, not any
closer to the city hall than the sidewalk, to the far side of Commerce.
There were approximately 50 or so people over there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody on the Main Street side of Commerce?
That is to say, in the area of the sidewalk between the mobile units
and the building itself?

Mr. HALL. No; as we passed the Main Street side of the city hall, we
were quite intent in watching the traffic and people and in getting our
truck into proper position on the other side of the building, so we
didn’t observe anything.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe anyone at all go up to the window of any of
the TV mobile units?

Mr. HALL. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. When your truck was placed on the ramp and arrived at a
stationary position, would you describe what that position was relative
to what part of the truck was inside the building and what part was
outside the building?

Mr. HALL. My cab was even with the outside wall of the building, which
would indicate that over half of the truck was indented into the
building on a downward slant. The rear door of the truck would be 6 or
8 feet inside of the line formed by the outside wall of the building.
Is that the answer?

Mr. HUBERT. Now you said that your cab, and therefore, you sitting in
the driver’s seat of the cab, was on a line even with the outside wall
of the building?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How far were you personally from the wall on your left? In
other words, how much space was there between you and the wall?

Mr. HALL. Total of about 4 feet, I would imagine; sir. There is a
little parapet there. You allow for the runningboard of my truck and
the open door. Between my open door and the wall would be approximately
2 feet left over.

I haven’t mentioned this; I think it is probably immaterial; a newsman
walked up to my cab during this interval of waiting for something
to happen and attempted to interview me, asking questions about the
operation of the company, and due to the stress of the situation, I
shut the door to avoid discussion.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, does that have a window?

Mr. HALL. It is a bulletproof glass and it is sealed.

Mr. HUBERT. What I am getting at is----

Mr. HALL. This is a minor thing, but they were quite annoying.

Mr. HUBERT. What did he do? Did he just go on after that?

Mr. HALL. He went on about his business.

Mr. HUBERT. He did not go into the building?

Mr. HALL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you know he was a newspaperman?

Mr. HALL. He had a pad and a pencil and said he was.

Mr. HUBERT. Have you seen pictures of Jack Ruby?

Mr. HALL. This wasn’t Jack Ruby.

Mr. HUBERT. It was not?

Mr. HALL. No; definitely not. This was a young kid.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see anybody else pass by going into the building to
your left?

Mr. HALL. No.

Mr. HUBERT. You are quite certain that no one did?

Mr. HALL. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Are you willing to state that no one could have without
your seeing them?

Mr. HALL. It is so very unlikely.

Mr. HUBERT. I take it from the interval of hesitation that although
your answer has been it is very unlikely, you are not willing to make
the positive statement that nobody did?

Mr. HALL. No; due to one thing. There was approximately 20 minutes of
tension. There was quite a bit of activity in the area. I feel very
sure that only the people designated passed my long vantage point.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say people designated, who do you mean?

Mr. HALL. Harold Fleming and the police officer and probably Chief
Batchelor.

Mr. HUBERT. Now did you hear the shot fired?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. From the time that you backed your truck in until the time
the shot was fired, did you move out of the van at all?

Mr. HALL. No; the reason is that it was parked on a slant and I wanted
to make darn sure we didn’t roll or have any problem.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you keep your engine running?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir; definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the reason why you didn’t go down all the way?

Mr. HALL. The height of the truck. The height of the passageway
wouldn’t permit our truck down in there.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any question raised as to whether the truck had
sufficient power to climb up that ramp if it went all the way down?

Mr. HALL. Oh, no; it is a heavy Chevrolet truck. Strictly a matter of
height.

Mr. HUBERT. How much space was there between the right-hand side of
your truck and the wall on the Harwood Street side of the Commerce
entrance?

Mr. HALL. Just enough for one man to pass.

Mr. HUBERT. That would be how much, a foot, or 2 feet?

Mr. HALL. Approximately 2 feet, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now were there any police guards that you saw on either
side of your truck during the time it was parked?

Mr. HALL. Sitting in the driver’s seat looking out the left door to
the rear, I could observe a police guard beyond the rear of the truck
on the left side. I assumed there were police guards on the right side
also, even though from my vantage point I couldn’t see him.

Mr. HUBERT. But you did see a police guard to your left?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. In the space between the truck and the wall?

Mr. HALL. Behind the--further back down, sir, not standing directly
between the truck and the building; no.

Mr. HUBERT. Nor was there any, I take it then, at the very entrance
between your truck and the wall?

Mr. HALL. Not stationed permanently at that spot to stand still; no,
sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, were there some moving?

Mr. HALL. I have to explain this hesitation. I am trying to recall. At
the time, there was quite a bit of activity there. There were policemen
moving, patrol type situation. Two on the corner, two out in the street
directing traffic, one up at the door to the new part of the city hall,
and one out on the sidewalk.

Mr. HUBERT. That was in front of your truck more or less?

Mr. HALL. Front and to the left; yes, sir. I am not just real positive,
but one policeman may have gone through that passageway.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not see anybody in civilian clothes?

Mr. HALL. Oh, no; gosh, no. There is another reason for this. The
concentration of newsmen was apparently already at their posts down in
the basement when we got there.

Mr. HUBERT. How could you tell that?

Mr. HALL. When you back into an opening and look through your rear-view
mirror, or also turn around and look down the left side of your truck,
you see a concentration of people down in a rather dark basement area.
There was excitement down there. We were on the outside.

Mr. HUBERT. How could you tell there was excitement? By movement, or
sound?

Mr. HALL. By movement and noise. Am I being direct enough?

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any conversation with Mr. Fleming during any
of this period?

Mr. HALL. Very minimal. “What is going on? Are they ready?”

Mr. HUBERT. Had any signal arrangement been made between you as to when
to start off, and so forth?

Mr. HALL. Oh, no.

Mr. HUBERT. You were simply waiting instructions then as to what to do?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been told as to what route to follow?

Mr. HALL. The policeman got into the cab and briefly said his
understanding was that we would turn left and have an escort and would
probably go on up to Central Express, over to Main, and down to the
county courthouse by the most direct route. I feel that this was a
little conjecture on his part and mine both.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after you had stopped in the final position of the
truck did this policeman come and sit next to you?

Mr. HALL. Three to five minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. How do you fix that?

Mr. HALL. Strict estimate; it wasn’t immediately. It wasn’t toward the
latter part of the waiting period. It was in the early part of the
waiting period, and I feel that 3 to 5 minutes was a fairly accurate
estimate.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you converse with this gentleman?

Mr. HALL. Briefly; we shook hands, smiled at each other, and sat there.

Mr. HUBERT. He stayed there until after the shot was fired?

Mr. HALL. He stayed in the truck until we pulled over across the street
and until after the ambulance had gone by.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said he was in uniform?

Mr. HALL. Yes; definitely.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there any kind of records kept by your company
concerning the movement of the trucks?

Mr. HALL. Normally; yes, sir. This Sunday morning adventure was such an
unusual thing and participated in by two administrators of the company,
that we made no formal truck report as you normally would when you
come in off a run. We made an informal memo report, I did, and mailed
it to our home office in Fort Worth, Monday morning, describing the
situation, just for the file.

Mr. HUBERT. Did that report contain any reference to the various times
that we have discussed? For example, today, and particularly the time
of leaving the terminal and returning to the terminal?

Mr. HALL. No; it was just a rough informal memo to Mr. Mastin, the
president of the organization, putting on paper what we had done.

Mr. HUBERT. Was any charge made to the city for this service?

Mr. HALL. No, sir; we were available to the city for emergency use.
Couldn’t very well charge when we don’t accomplish our mission.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, I think that is all I have; sir. I now would like
to ask you this question so the record may be clear. There has been
some informal discussion between you and me since you came in, but I
believe, and I ask you whether you concur in this, that all that we
discussed informally has been again discussed formally in the sense
that it has been recorded?

Mr. HALL. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; I think that is all, and thank you very
much indeed.



TESTIMONY OF CECIL E. TALBERT

The testimony of Cecil E. Talbert was taken at 10:45 a.m., on July 13,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant
attorney general of Texas, and Dean Robert G. Storey, special counsel
to the attorney general of Texas, were present.


Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Captain Cecil E. Talbert. Captain
Talbert, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff
of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29,
1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with
that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you, among others.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Captain Talbert, the nature of the inquiry
today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and
any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

I understand, Captain, that you appear today by virtue of a general
request made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of
the staff of the President’s Commission.

Under the rules adopted by the Commission, every witness has the right
to have a 3-day written notice personally directed to him prior to the
taking of his deposition, but the rules also provide that any witness
may waive that 3-day written notice if they wish.

Captain TALBERT. I wish to waive.

Mr. HUBERT. I will ask you now if you are willing.

Captain TALBERT. Please.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you stand and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Captain TALBERT. I do.

Mr. HUBERT. Captain Talbert, you have previously given a deposition in
this matter, which I think was on March 24, 1964, isn’t that correct?

Captain TALBERT. I gave a previous deposition; yes, sir. The date is
correct.

Mr. HUBERT. For that reason, I will not make any attempt to take any
information concerning who you are and so forth. I take it you are
still with the police department in the capacity you were when your
deposition was last taken?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now, I want to inquire about a number of matters that
were touched upon, I think, last time concerning which we need some
elaboration, and that is the reason for calling you back. As I recall
the matter, you came on duty on November 24 early in the morning to
relieve Captain Frazier, is that not so?

Captain TALBERT. That is true.

Mr. HUBERT. What time, do you remember, did you come on duty?

Captain TALBERT. I would have to give you an approximation, sir,
between 6 and 6:15 a.m.

Mr. HUBERT. What shift was it that you were coming on?

Captain TALBERT. It is referred to as the second platoon, working days,
as it operates from 7 to 3.

Mr. HUBERT. But you came on sometime before the actual beginning?

Captain TALBERT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Captain Frazier was there when you came?

Captain TALBERT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now I understand also that you proceeded to set up certain
security measures in the entire building?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not? What security measures did you begin to set up
in the morning when you got there?

Captain TALBERT. Later in the morning at approximately 9 o’clock I
instructed Lieutenant Pierce to get squads in to set up security
measures in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. The basement being referred to as the automotive drive
area and the area where the prisoner, if he were transferred, would be
exposed? That is to say, the basement would be the two ramps and the
parking area, is that correct?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; and the approach to the jail.

Mr. HUBERT. It is actually below the first floor?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You had not taken any kind of security precautions prior to
that?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Now what security precautions did you initiate at about 9
o’clock, you say, on November 24?

Captain TALBERT. I instructed Lieutenant Pierce to----

Mr. HUBERT. That is Rio Pierce?

Captain TALBERT. Yes; Rio Sam Pierce. I instructed him to go over the
detail and pull three squads from each of the three outlying stations
and four from central stations to acquire as many men as possible by
utilizing two-man squads, and search the basement area, clear it, and
then keep it cleared of everything but authorized personnel.

Mr. HUBERT. Now did you do that----

Captain TALBERT. By basement area, let me refer back again to the area
that we previously defined.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you do that on your own initiative, or were you
directed or requested to do that by anyone?

Captain TALBERT. I did it on my own due to the buildup of public
curiosity seekers around the building, as well as the buildup around
the city jail, and traffic conditions in the downtown area on Sunday
were extraordinarily heavy due to the situation that had just occurred.
And I thought that if a transfer were made, then we should have some
precautions to safeguard it, and also to keep from having chaos in
attempting to do it immediately.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware then that the transfer of Oswald would be
made by utilizing some part of the basement area, or were you just
assuming that it would?

Captain TALBERT. Strictly an assumption, sir, and from the fact that he
might not. Transfer was strictly an assumption from the press, what had
been released in the press the day before.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you did not know at that time that Oswald
would be transferred on Sunday?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you been in contact with any superior prior to the
institution of these security precautions you have just described?

Captain TALBERT. I had talked to Chief Curry on the telephone in the
early morning hours just prior to 7, somewhere along there.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you have already covered that in your previous
deposition.

Captain TALBERT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he at that time direct you to institute any security
precautions?

Captain TALBERT. No.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you institute any security precautions other than the
ones that you just described concerning the basement?

Captain TALBERT. That I described in the previous deposition, or
presently?

Mr. HUBERT. No; in the present one.

Captain TALBERT. You mean further along in the morning, sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Well, no. I was thinking about security precautions in
other areas than the basement at that time.

Captain TALBERT. No, sir. I didn’t have the personnel.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you take any steps to initiate security precautions as
to other areas than the basement at any time on Sunday?

Captain TALBERT. When the crowd began to get heavy, began to gather
on Commerce Street, then on the Commerce Street side we had had the
previous warning from the FBI and an anonymous caller of a possible
mob action, so we moved the civilians from the north side of Commerce
to the south side of Commerce and stationed, or had Sergeant Steele
station some reserve officers out there to maintain the free sidewalk
as well as the surveillance of the ground.

Mr. HUBERT. Was that done at your direction and order?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you receive instructions from some person higher in
command than you to do it, or did you do it on your own initiative?

Captain TALBERT. I just saw the necessity of doing it, so I did it on
my own initiative.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever receive from anyone any specific instructions
concerning security precautions other than what you have mentioned?

Captain TALBERT. In reference to the original deposition, I pointed
out in there about the receiving of instructions and transferring the
prisoner from the city jail to the county jail. I received instructions
on this.

Mr. HUBERT. From whom?

Captain TALBERT. From Chief Lumpkin and Chief Stevenson at the time
they told me about the prisoner being transferred, that he would be
transferred in an armored car.

Mr. HUBERT. About what time was that, do you know? I mean the time that
you received that information and these instructions?

Captain TALBERT. I was trying to refer to something for a time. 10:30
to 10:45, somewhere in that vicinity. It would have been in the
vicinity of 10:30 or 10:45.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ever receive any other instructions concerning
security from anyone?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir. Well, may I qualify that. You mean prior to
Oswald’s shooting?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes, sir.

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall whether there were any conversations
concerning the transfer of Oswald?

Captain TALBERT. I am sure there were many, but not in my presence.

Mr. HUBERT. What were your instructions to Lieutenant Pierce regarding
the security measures he should take with reference to the basement
area?

Captain TALBERT. Clear it and seal it off, or seal it off rather and
then clear it, and search it.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you describe what “seal it off” means?

Captain TALBERT. Station officers at the entrances or exits and insure
unauthorized personnel not entering the area.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go down to the basement yourself?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you examine to see all possible entrances and direct
that the sealing off process cover those possible entrances?

Captain TALBERT. May I qualify again, or ask a question? Do you mean
did I direct the actual sealing off?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I did not. I examined it after it had been
sealed off to see if it had been properly done, and in my opinion it
had been.

Mr. HUBERT. Now the clearing process consisted of what? The clearing
out or checking whether the building had been sealed, the basement had
been sealed?

Captain TALBERT. Clearing all of the civilian employees out. They
had a check. This was done before I went to the basement. But I was
instructed, or not instructed, I mean informed after I went down to
examine it, of the step by step process that had been taken in checking
the news personnel back in, or checking them in the jail office that
were in there.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, as I understand it, it was not all cleared out of
everybody and then accredited personnel let in, but rather those that
were in there were checked out to see if they were accredited?

Captain TALBERT. Right, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I think the accreditation consisted of their being
authentic news media people?

Captain TALBERT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Now were you given any instructions to the effect that news
media were to be permitted to remain in the basement?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was it then your own initiative that news media were not to
be removed from the basement?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. How did that come about?

Captain TALBERT. I qualify that in that Sergeant Putnam--as I recall,
Sergeant Putnam--it possibly could have been Sergeant Dean was present
at the time when Chief Curry told the newsmen there was no point in
their setting up their TV cameras and equipment on the third floor,
that the man would come through the jail office of the basement. I
didn’t personally hear it. It was told by him or one of the other of
my superiors that Chief Curry had given them that information, or
permission, if you wish.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you did not clear the basement of news
media because you understood from Sergeant Putnam or someone else that
he had heard Chief Curry say to the news media that there was no use in
their setting up their equipment on the third floor since the transfer
would be made through the basement?

Captain TALBERT. Yes. They were in the process of setting up their
live television cameras and what-have-you, when he gave them this
information.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you check with anyone to see if the news media would be
permitted to remain in the basement?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir. May I say----

Mr. HUBERT. Sure; go ahead.

Captain TALBERT. Could we hold this up just a moment?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; but let me say this, whatever we say off the record----

Captain TALBERT. I can go back on the record. I just want to know if
you want something.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, let’s go off the record, with the understanding
that we must put the contents of what you tell me off the record into
it, you see.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. HUBERT. Let’s go on the record. Why don’t you just state that?
Let’s put it this way. There was a short conversation, the substance of
which will now be covered by Captain Talbert.

Captain TALBERT. On my previous deposition it was apparently stated
as a fact that we utilized the existing general order in following
our usual procedure in handling news personnel, and that is general
order No. 81. I have since checked it to make sure that is the correct
general order number, and that general order was supplemented in 1963
after two incidents in which news personnel felt they had been held
away from their story because of unnecessary precautions by police
officers, and it was quite adequate as far as assisting them in
obtaining their story.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you were operating under the provisions of
that order No. 81, as amended?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. I have the amendment. I mean I have No. 81,
and I have the additional amendment with me, but I would rather you get
it from the department rather than me.

Mr. HUBERT. If you have a copy that could be available, I would just as
soon get it.

Captain TALBERT. I was curious enough to make a copy after I was here
before. No. 81 is the top figure, and the bottom is the amendment.
Not the amendment; actually it is an emphasis of No. 81 where it was
emphasized it was to be followed, with punitive measures to be taken if
it were not.

Mr. HUBERT. In connection with your present deposition, Captain
Talbert, I am going to mark as an exhibit the documents you have just
referred to, as follows: “Dallas Police Department General Order No.
81 entitled ‘Press Releases’, dated June 15, 1958.” I am marking that
for the purpose of identification as “Dallas, Texas, July 13, 1964,
Exhibit No. 1, deposition of Captain C. E. Talbert,” signing my name
below that, consisting of really about a third of the page. And the
second document you have handed me is a photostatic copy of a long memo
dated February 7, 1963, addressed to all members of the department,
apparently signed by Chief of Police J. E. Curry, that I am marking as
follows, for identification: “Dallas, Texas, July 13, 1964, Exhibit
No. 2, deposition of Captain C. E. Talbert”, and I am signing my name
below that exhibit. Now Exhibit No. 1 and Exhibit No. 2 are the police
directives or orders that you were referring to a moment ago?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall any conversations you had with Chief
Batchelor or Chief Curry or Deputy Chief Stevenson?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir; to some extent.

Mr. HUBERT. Will you tell us about what they were?

Captain TALBERT. Chief Stevenson and Chief Lumpkin wanted to go to the
third floor for a cup of coffee, ostensibly. I assume that the true
purpose was to tell me about the armored car transfer. And instead,
I took them to the second floor to my sergeant’s room, or conference
room where we had a pot of coffee made, and while we were drinking
coffee there they told me that the transfer would be made, that it
would be made in an armored car, and wanted me to have a man or two
men available on the Commerce Street side to assist the driver of the
armored car in backing in. At that time they were concerned about the
height of the armored car.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know about what time that was, sir?

Captain TALBERT. Again, I am going to give you an approximation of
10:30 to 10:45.

Mr. HUBERT. That conversation on the second floor was with Chief
Batchelor?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; Chief Stevenson and Chief Lumpkin.

Mr. HUBERT. And Lumpkin?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any conversations with Chief Batchelor or
Chief Curry at that time?

Captain TALBERT. Not with Chief Curry. When Chief Batchelor came to the
basement, we had quite a few commentaries on various parts of security,
but verbatim, I can’t recall what they were.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the general nature?

Captain TALBERT. He was checking what we had done there. Chief
Batchelor came into the basement parking area, the one we had sealed
off, and had checked it, or was checking it, in the process of checking
it, and in checking it we had some brief conversation. We moved two
cars out on the Commerce Street side prior to the arrival of the
armored car, and he moved his car, and I believe Chief Curry’s car; had
them moved out, I should say. I didn’t move them myself.

Mr. HUBERT. Where were they?

Captain TALBERT. They were parked in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Where?

Captain TALBERT. I don’t recall, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Weren’t they by the railing?

Captain TALBERT. Oh, I am sorry, they were always parked in the same
place, so I am sure they were there. As you turn into the drive, or
rather from the drive into the parking area, the chief’s car is always
parked to the right or on the south side of the drive.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, the cars were removed from the space that
the cameras were ultimately placed?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; they would have been on the opposite side.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember the removal of the cars that were in the
spaces ultimately and later occupied by the TV cameras?

Captain TALBERT. The TV cameras were the ones that were set up as
permanent installations. They were already set up, and there were no
cars there when I arrived in the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. That was at what time?

Captain TALBERT. Again an approximation of 10 o’clock; in the vicinity
of 10.

Mr. HUBERT. You did not give orders for the clearing of that space of
automobiles so that the cameras could occupy that space?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know who did give such orders?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I don’t know that they were given.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know of any orders to the effect that the news media
were to be kept behind the railing? That is to say, on the east side of
the railing that divided the ramp from the garage area?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir. Although I was in and out of the basement, it
might have occurred, but it didn’t occur while I was in the basement.
Now Chief Batchelor did rearrange the news media, I think, on two
different times. He was trying to arrange them in a better situation
for us.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you observe that?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I wasn’t in the basement when either move was
made. May I inject here that I was operating a patrol platoon, and this
was extracurricular.

Mr. HUBERT. What you say is that you believe, or have learned that
Chief Batchelor made two efforts, to your knowledge, to change the
press position?

Captain TALBERT. I have been told that; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a conversation by telephone that you had
with Lieutenant Pierce at Parkland Hospital after the shooting of
Oswald?

Captain TALBERT. Not with Lieutenant Pierce; no, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you have any with anyone else?

Captain TALBERT. I had several conversations from Parkland Hospital on
the telephone after the shooting of Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. Would you tell us about them, please?

Captain TALBERT. Well, I was at Parkland to clear the hospital and make
sure that the chaos or confusion didn’t transmit into the hospital
itself, and also secure the area where the prisoner was being operated
on. And the Governor was there. There was a peculiar situation in that
he was on the same floor in close proximity to the operating room where
Oswald was being operated on. I was trying to get all the confusion
away from the room he was in. He was in the intensive care room. As
soon as personnel was placed, I started making telephone calls trying
to check to find out how the fellow got in the basement, the fellow
being referred to, of course, as Ruby. And I don’t recall a specific
conversation with Lieutenant Pierce, although I am sure I did talk to
him.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you recall anyone else you spoke to?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Who would that be?

Captain TALBERT. I spoke to R. E. Vaughn. I spoke to Nelson. I spoke
to, I believe, now let me see, I think I got a hold of Jez who was on
the Commerce Street entrance. I was contacting the men on the various
entrances to see how it could have happened, how he could have got in
there. Is there such a thing as my correcting an error I made in my
first deposition here?

Mr. HUBERT. Certainly; absolutely.

Captain TALBERT. I said in my first deposition, and I recall that after
leaving, after my conversation with Chief Curry on the telephone that
morning, I didn’t talk to him again that day. And for some reason or
other, I overlooked the fact that I did talk to him from the hospital.
I talked to him twice, possibly three times. I called him, or rather
was called by him at the hospital to find out what the condition of
Oswald, the existing condition was, and then I called him back sometime
during the middle of the operation when I got a report on it, and
called back again to tell him the time of Oswald’s death immediately
after his death.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him about how the security had broken down
during any of those three conversations?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see Patrick Dean, Sergeant Dean at Parkland?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you speak to him?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. As a matter of fact, he had assigned some of
the men out there.

Mr. HUBERT. Did he say anything to you about what Ruby had told him as
to how he had gotten into the basement?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. That was the first information that I had
received on how Ruby said he got into the basement, was from Dean.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said that you spoke to Vaughn and Jez who were
respectively at the Main Street and Commerce Street entrances?

Captain TALBERT. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. When you spoke to Dean, was that before or after you had
spoken to Vaughn?

Captain TALBERT. As I recall my contact--I had many contacts with
Vaughn regarding, as you may well know, and as I recall that contact,
it was after, because I was being rather dogmatic about who was around
that entrance with Vaughn at the time. As I recall it, I may be in
error here, it might have been after. I mean, it might have been prior
to my contact with Dean, and then subsequent contact with Vaughn.

Mr. HUBERT. When you first talked to Vaughn, let’s put it this way,
did you know that Ruby claimed to have come through the entrance that
Vaughn was guarding?

Captain TALBERT. I would like to answer you positively, Mr. Hubert,
but I can’t. It was the first or second contact. It possibly was the
second, but I think it was the first. I believe it was the first.

Mr. HUBERT. Well, the conversation you had with Dean where he told you
what Ruby had said about how he entered, was at the hospital site?

Captain TALBERT. Verbatim, you mean?

Mr. HUBERT. No. I mean when you talked to Dean and he told you about
what Ruby had said, as to Dean, as to how he got in, that conversation
with Dean was at the hospital?

Captain TALBERT. At the hospital; yes, sir. I am sorry, I thought you
meant what was my conversation.

Mr. HUBERT. Had you talked to Vaughn prior to that time?

Captain TALBERT. I can’t recall. I really can’t recall, Mr. Hubert.
I don’t believe I had been able to get in touch with him. You see,
getting into telephone contact with these people took a little time,
and it also didn’t occur until after I had cleared the lobby of the
hospital and posted guards at the doors. But I can’t recall. I mean I
can’t remember to give you a definite answer on that.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you talk to Pierce, Lieutenant Pierce about how Ruby
came into the basement, if you recall?

Captain TALBERT. Many times.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean the first time that you talked to him, do you
remember?

Captain TALBERT. I can’t recall the first time. I can’t recall actually
getting in touch with Pierce from the hospital. Now I possibly did, but
I was a busy man, and I can’t recall.

Mr. HUBERT. When you did talk to Pierce about how Ruby claimed he
entered into the basement, did he seem to know about it?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir. He was quite vociferous, in fact.

Mr. HUBERT. Vociferous in what way?

Captain TALBERT. Language. We wouldn’t want to put it in this
deposition, sir. By that I mean he was alleging that he had entered
that Main Street entrance. Lieutenant Pierce said he couldn’t have. And
then the vociferousness.

Mr. HUBERT. It was a matter of emphasis on that point?

Captain TALBERT. Was an emphasis on Ruby’s character, actually.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, Pierce’s reaction was that it was not true,
so far as he knew?

Captain TALBERT. His reaction was startled, and that he even alleged
that he came in that way, and that it couldn’t possibly have been true.

Mr. HUBERT. By that you mean that the information conveyed to you by
Pierce was that Ruby claimed to have entered through the Main Street
entrance as Pierce went out, and Pierce’s reaction was negative on
that, and of a vociferous nature?

Captain TALBERT. And startled, as I recall. Sam can be rather positive
in his views. He is positive in his views, not can be. And he was very
positive in that.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware at anytime on the morning of the 24th that
threats had come through concerning the harm to Oswald during the
transfer?

Captain TALBERT. I am sorry?

Mr. HUBERT. Were you aware at anytime prior to Oswald’s shooting that
threats had come to the attention of the police department concerning
the safety of Oswald?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir. That is the reason I took the action of--if
you will analyze what I did with assigning the total personnel that
I had assigned that day, and that included myself, including all the
patrolmen and supervisors, I took all the precautions possible against
mob action, and took elementary precautions against an individual
action. And needless to say, from the subsequent events, it was
unsuccessful.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you in fact address your consideration of security
measures to both types of threats? That is, to the mob action and
single action by one man?

Captain TALBERT. Right, sir. The individual officer on Main Street,
for instance, we had the buildup of the crowd on the opposite side of
the building on Commerce where the people obviously knew was an exit
ramp, so the individual officer on Main Street was one of, if not the
best patrolmen I have. He is the type person that you can depend on
thoroughly, and quite sizable physically. I don’t know whether you
have met Vaughn or not, but if we went into physical combat, I would
want an edge on him of some sort. And if an individual had tried to
attack him to get in, we had adequate personnel in the basement to
take care of him if they got past. In my opinion, they would never
have gotten past. If a mob had tried to attack him, we still had
adequate personnel. We had a total of four--let me correct that. I
know positively that we had three tear gas cases down there as well as
numerous shotguns or side arms, and we could have taken care of mob
action with the short notification we would have had after they go past
Vaughn.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you said earlier that you took elaborate
precautions against a mob, but I think you used the word elementary.
What do you mean by that? What contrast do you mean to point out?

Captain TALBERT. Really, you can erase it. With the normal procedure,
the precautions taken were adequate either way, with normal procedure.
But capricious, if as this investigation has developed, the entry of
Ruby occurred at the time and place in which he said it was, and which
apparently is true, capricious fate entered into it on the time element
for sure at the exit of a vehicle on an entrance ramp, which is the
first time that occurred in a number of years. Something I certainly
didn’t foresee, and that is what I was referring to when I said
elementary.

Mr. HUBERT. In your opinion, what would have been completely adequate
security against one-man action?

Captain TALBERT. Secret transfer.

Mr. HUBERT. By secret, you mean done in such a way and in such a manner
that there would not have been a crowd around? Transferred at night?

Captain TALBERT. No announcement. We know that now. It is quite obvious
now.

Mr. HUBERT. What you are saying is, to guard against one-man action
you have to do it in such a way that there are not a great many people
around?

Captain TALBERT. Anybody can be murdered by an individual who is
willing to give up his life to do so. I don’t care who it is or where
it is, he can be murdered if he wants to give up his life to do it
and has adequate time, and the only way to prevent it is to keep him
completely away from him and to do it effectively, it has to be a
surreptitious action. It can’t be an open action.

Mr. HUBERT. It can’t be, in other words, where there are lots of people
milling around?

Captain TALBERT. That’s right, or where a lot of people have knowledge
of it. If a lot of people have knowledge of the action, in itself that
constitutes a danger.

Mr. HUBERT. Captain Talbert, in your deposition on March 24, 1964, you
identified an exhibit which was given Exhibit No. 5066 then, which
contains at the very bottom of that page the following sentence, to
wit: “He stated in the rush to get into the basement where the loading
ramp was located and Oswald was being brought down from the jail, it
is highly possible that Jack Ruby may have walked down the ramp with
the newspapermen unnoticed.” Now two questions I would like to explore
there. What was the rush to get into the basement?

Captain TALBERT. I made an exception to that.

Mr. HUBERT. What was the exception?

Captain TALBERT. It either was through my semantics or their shorthand.
It just isn’t true. There was no rush.

Mr. HUBERT. Is that comment true about the second thought contained in
that sentence, and that is, “it is highly possible that Ruby may have
come along with the newspapermen unnoticed”?

Captain TALBERT. At first we were contemplating--I am sorry, wrong
word--we had information, and this was by some unknown person, that
Channel 5 camera coming through the door late, the last camera that
come down, started in with a two-man crew and ended up with a three-man
crew, and that is what I was referring to there. That was proved to be
untrue. One of the newsmen who was already in there stepped up to help
steady the camera as it come around the threshold.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what you had reference to?

Captain TALBERT. That is what I had reference to; yes, sir. And
this rushing newspaperman, I am sure it is probably my poor English
semantics.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how the press knew that the route would be
through the basement area there?

Captain TALBERT. Sorry, sir; I didn’t hear your question.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you know how the news people knew that the route would
be through the basement area?

Captain TALBERT. No, sir. May I back up? When you say how the route
would be, you mean whether it would be from the jail office elevator,
or from the other elevator?

Mr. HUBERT. Or from any other way.

Captain TALBERT. No, sir; I have no idea.

Mr. HUBERT. It was apparent, though, that it would be that way, from
the general setup of things?

Captain TALBERT. The normal procedure would have been that way; yes,
sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You mean on that morning, the fact of the arrangement of
the cameras and bringing up of the armored truck and so forth would
have indicated that?

Captain TALBERT. Yes; it would have indicated it.

Mr. HUBERT. I believe that is all, Captain Talbert, unless there is
something you wish to say.

Captain TALBERT. Can we get off the record and ask you a question?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; we have to put it back on the record.

(Discussion off the record.)

Mr. HUBERT. You have brought up a point that you said you wished
clarified, and it was to this effect. You stated to me during the
off-the-record discussion that while you were at the hospital, Captain
Fritz came to you and asked you whether or not you had told him to come
ahead, at which time you said to him, “Yes.” You say to me now that
what you had in mind when you told him “Yes,” that you had said to him
“Come on ahead” was an earlier conversation or telephone call that you
had had with Captain Fritz, and not the come-ahead signal just prior to
the Oswald movement.

Captain TALBERT. Actually, the earlier call was to Fritz’ office, and
I talked to a Detective Beck. Captain Fritz was interrogating the
prisoner and couldn’t answer the phone, so I told Detective Beck to
pass on the information to him that the basement had been searched.
Whether he ever received that information or not, I don’t know.

Mr. HUBERT. It is your understanding now that Captain Fritz thought
when you told him “Yes” at the hospital, that you had given the
all-clear signal, you thought he was referring to the telephone call?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. But apparently he thought you were referring to an
all-clear signal just prior to the exit of Oswald from the jail?

Captain TALBERT. From the jail elevator; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. To get the whole matter straight, your point is you did
not give an all-clear signal to Captain Fritz just before Oswald was
brought out of the jail, is that correct?

Captain TALBERT. That is quite true. I was out in the driveway and
didn’t know Oswald was down myself. Lieutenant Wiggins has given a
deposition clarifying his asking about it coming off of the elevator,
but I thought if a conflict arose in Captain Fritz’ deposition, this
possibly would clear it up.

Mr. HUBERT. What you have told us just now, does it cover everything
you told me off the record?

Captain TALBERT. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; is there anything else?

Captain TALBERT. It’s been a pleasure talking to you.

Mr. HUBERT. Then I will just ask you this general question. Has
everything that we have talked about this morning been covered in the
record in one way or another?

Captain TALBERT. Yes; it has.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, sir; thank you very much. I appreciate your
coming down again.



TESTIMONY OF MARJORIE R. RICHEY

The testimony of Marjorie R. Richey was taken at 2:40 p.m., on July
21, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NW., Washington, D.C., by Mr. Burt W.
Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Mr. Harold
Richey also was present.


Mr. GRIFFIN. It is customary in starting these depositions for the
interrogator to introduce himself. My name is Burt Griffin. I am a
member of the staff of the general counsel’s office of the President’s
Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. The Commission
has been authorized as a result of an Executive order issued by
President Johnson November 29 and as a result of a joint resolution of
Congress to investigate into and to report back to the President on all
the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and the
death of Lee Harvey Oswald. We have a set of procedures which have been
set up by the Commission acting under the authority of the Executive
order and the joint resolution, and under the procedures I have been
given authority to take your deposition.

Now the general area of inquiry that we are going to be dealing with in
particular this afternoon has to do with the death of Lee Harvey Oswald
and most particularly what you, Mrs. Richey, know about Jack Ruby and
any contacts you had with him in particular in the few days just before
Oswald was killed. However, if you have any information that might be
of use to the Commission in any other area that we are investigating,
why of course, we would like very much to hear about it.

Did you receive a letter from the Commission requesting you to come
here? Would you state for the record when you received that letter?

Mrs. RICHEY. I got two.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the most recent?

Mrs. RICHEY. The first one was sent to Dallas. This was before Harold
and I were married. You had better stop because I am wrong. Hal and I
were married in December and I talked to the FBI before this, and they
had my name Ethier, that was before I was married. They had my address
in Dallas. So Hal and I moved up here. They sent the letter to my home
in Texas and my sister signed for the letter, and then she called me
and she sent it to me airmail special delivery. So I could read it
myself, and it took 3 days.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What we are concerned about, of course, is the most recent
letter that you got in connection with this appearance.

Mrs. RICHEY. This is it, and I got it yesterday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are entitled under the rules of the Commission to have
written notice 3 days in advance of your appearing here.

Mrs. RICHEY. I wished I had known that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will ask you if, nonetheless, you are willing to go
ahead.

Mrs. RICHEY. Oh; let’s go ahead.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And give us the testimony. Do you have any questions
before we start about the nature of the investigation?

Mrs. RICHEY. No; I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know if there is anything that I could clarify for
you. I think it fairly obvious from what I have said the general areas
we are going to cover. Let me ask you to raise your right hand then and
I will administer the oath to you. Do you solemnly swear the testimony
you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but
the truth; so help you God?

Mrs. RICHEY. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give us your full name, please?

Mrs. RICHEY. Marjorie Ruth Richey.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell your last name?

Mrs. RICHEY. R-i-c-h-e-y.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where are you presently living, Mrs. Richey?

Mrs. RICHEY. In Mentor, Ohio.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mrs. RICHEY. 1944.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you lived in Mentor, Ohio?

Mrs. RICHEY. About 6 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was your home before that?

Mrs. RICHEY. Irving, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you a native of Texas?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you live in Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. RICHEY. The previous address, the last one that we lived at was
134 West Lively.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you living on November 22, 1963?

Mrs. RICHEY. 2215 Cunningham.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that also Irving, Tex.?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At that time were you employed by Jack Ruby?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the nature of your employment with him?

Mrs. RICHEY. I was a waitress.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What club did you work at?

Mrs. RICHEY. Carousel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had you worked for Mr. Ruby?

Mrs. RICHEY. Since June of the same year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever worked for him before?

Mrs. RICHEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work for him continuously from June until November
22?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you work every night of the week or did you have
some nights off?

Mrs. RICHEY. Sometimes I worked every night and sometimes I got a night
off. Never a regular day off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you on a salary?

Mrs. RICHEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How were you paid?

Mrs. RICHEY. Tips. That is what we earned our money by, tips.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many other waitresses were there normally at the
Carousel Club?

Mrs. RICHEY. Before this happened?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before the 22d of November; yes.

Mrs. RICHEY. Generally three or four.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were they all paid on a tip basis?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us any idea of what your normal amount of
tips would be that you would get in a week?

Mrs. RICHEY. In a week?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. RICHEY. It varied so much.

Mr. RICHEY. May I ask a question, please?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.

Mr. RICHEY. This testimony she is giving to you now on the amount of
money that she earned, can this be used by Internal Revenue?

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would rather not talk about it, it is all going to
be a matter of record, and if this is an area that you would rather not
go into----

Mr. RICHEY. It is not that. It is just as you know none of these girls
pay taxes and they can come back on this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s not go into this then. What I am trying to get at is
to get some idea of what the people who worked for Ruby were making.

Mrs. RICHEY. I was telling the truth though. It really varies. Some
nights you may make a dollar and the next night you may make $50. It
just depends.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think there were nights when you made as much as
$50?

Mrs. RICHEY. I never did but I mean there were waitresses that did, but
they had been, you know, working as waitresses a lot longer than I had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were your hours at the Carousel Club?

Mrs. RICHEY. 7:30 to about 1:30.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did the shows start at the club?

Mrs. RICHEY. 9 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you come to work on the night of Thursday, November
21? That is the night before President Kennedy arrived in town.

Mrs. RICHEY. Oh, gosh, I don’t know really.

Mr. GRIFFIN. President Kennedy was assassinated on Friday. Do you have
any present recollection of having been there?

Mrs. RICHEY. I must have probably.

Mr. RICHEY. Yes; you worked there a week before I left. I worked on the
20th.

Mrs. RICHEY. Then I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it from what you said though that November 21 was
not a night when you remembered anything in particular about what
happened?

Mrs. RICHEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where you aware before the President arrived in Dallas
that he was coming to Dallas?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t even really know that for sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of having talked with Jack
Ruby or Jack Ruby ever having mentioned anything about the President’s
coming to Dallas?

Mrs. RICHEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you familiar with a dancer by the name of Tammi True?

Mrs. RICHEY. I knew her as a speaking acquaintance, but as far as
really being friendly with her, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall that during the week before the President
was assassinated, that Tammi quit her job or left her employment with
Mr. Ruby?

Mrs. RICHEY. I know she quit; but I can’t say that it was right there
in that week. I can’t remember these things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what you remember about the circumstances
under which she quit?

Mrs. RICHEY. Under which she quit?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Did she have an argument with Mr. Ruby or what was
the reason that you know about?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t know really. I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Directing your attention to the day that the President was
killed which is Friday, November 22, do you remember where you were at
the time that you first learned President Kennedy had been shot?

Mrs. RICHEY. I was in bed asleep.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how did it come to your attention?

Mrs. RICHEY. My mother was watching “As the World Turns” and she woke
me and she says, “The President’s been shot” and I said, “huh.” And she
said, “Yea.” I said, “You are kidding” and she said, “come here and see
it. It is on the TV.” I had just got in there and then they were down
there, the reporters and all were down there, and that is where I was
at.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the first contact you had that day on the 22d
with anybody associated with the Carousel Club?

Mrs. RICHEY. With Andrew I guess. I am not real sure. Now I can’t
be positive about these things. I remember more after he was killed
because I was asked questions about it, you know, about the days
afterwards. But before they didn’t ask me and they don’t stick in my
mind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe my question isn’t clear. I am asking you after you
heard that the President had been shot----

Mrs. RICHEY. The President had been shot?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; when did you next hear from or talk to somebody
connected with the club?

Mrs. RICHEY. I must have talked to the man that kept bar, because I
think that I called him and asked him if we were going to be open that
night because it was saying that the rest of the clubs were going to be
closed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that man?

Mrs. RICHEY. Andrew Armstrong.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you telephoned him at?

Mrs. RICHEY. At his home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he--you have any clear recollection of this?

Mrs. RICHEY. I remember that I talked to Andrew but I don’t remember if
I talked to someone else before. Okay.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you first learn that the clubs were going to be
closed?

Mrs. RICHEY. Well, I must have talked to Andrew two or three times that
day because he didn’t know for sure or not. No, that wasn’t right; or
was it. Wait, I’ve got to think a minute.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Take your time.

Mrs. RICHEY. I talked to Jack the night before he killed Lee Harvey
Oswald. I talked to Jack over the phone, and he told me that the clubs
were going to be closed, but I thought it was on a Saturday night.
Didn’t he kill Oswald on a Sunday?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right.

Mrs. RICHEY. Well, I can’t remember now. I told the FBI and they know
the real date and I can’t even remember right now if it was Friday
night or Saturday night that I talked to him?

Mr. GRIFFIN. You indicate on the 26th of November when you talked with
the FBI that you talked to Ruby around noon on Saturday, the 23d.

Mrs. RICHEY. That is the day after the President was shot, so that was
Saturday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. RICHEY. So that is right. I talked to him the day before. But I
don’t think it was noon and I don’t think I told him it was noon. It
seems like it was later in the evening. It may not have been. I can’t
really remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s think about Friday. I am trying to get at what you
might have learned about the clubs on Friday. Did you go to work on
Friday?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t remember that either.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do the evening that the President was shot?

Mrs. RICHEY. No, we were closed; yes, because we were closed on Friday,
Saturday, and Sunday.

Mr. RICHEY. If I can help, you called me. You had called me.

Mrs. RICHEY. On the Friday? I am sure now. I almost positive that we
were closed on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, because everything else
was closed. I am pretty sure that they were closed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your husband suggested that you called him sometime?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On Friday. What do you remember about that telephone
conversation?

Mrs. RICHEY. Nothing. I mean he was watching television. No, did I call
you then? Are you sure?

Mr. RICHEY. You called me late Friday afternoon.

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t remember that either. I remember talking to you
when Jack shot Lee Oswald. I am sorry.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection whether on Friday you knew
that the clubs were going to be closed for all 3 days?

Mrs. RICHEY. I am pretty sure. No, our club was going to be closed. If
I am not mistaken they were closed on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first learn that it was going to be closed
for 3 days?

Mrs. RICHEY. I think Andrew must have called me Friday and told me that
we were going to close that night, and then the next day I called him
to find out. It seems like that is the way it was, that I called him
to find out if we were going to work and he told me to call Jack and I
called Jack and Jack told me that we were going to be closed Saturday
and Sunday. If I am not mistaken that is the way it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you call Jack?

Mrs. RICHEY. At his apartment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you have indicated that you think it was sometime
other than noon?

Mrs. RICHEY. I can’t be real sure. To me right now it seems like that
it was later than noon. It may not have been. I am not real sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think your recollection on the 26th of November
about it would have been better than it is now?

Mrs. RICHEY. Oh, definitely; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you. Some people I think perhaps who knew Jack
were upset and nervous and perhaps didn’t really remember accurately,
weren’t able to accurately state what did happen when they were first
interviewed. Were you so nervous and upset about it that you wouldn’t
have remembered accurately on the 26th of November what you had done on
Saturday? What was your state of mind?

Mrs. RICHEY. I was pretty shaken up, I know that. It is a pretty
terrible thing to have happened, so close to you, you just don’t think
it can.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me mark for identification here what is a report of
an interview which two agents of the FBI, Peggs and Zimmerman, had
with you on November 26. I am going to mark that Marjorie R. Richey
Deposition Exhibit No. 1, July 21, 1964, Washington, D.C.

(The document referred to was marked Marjorie R. Richey Deposition
Exhibit No. 1 for identification.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. I will give you a chance to read it. Look that over and
see if that interview report refreshes your recollection in any way.

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t believe I said “several years ago.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you read the sentence that you are referring to?

Mrs. RICHEY. It says:

“Mrs. Ethier has been working at the Carousel since”--no, that is
wrong. “She first met Jack Ruby several years ago through her sister.”

I don’t think I said several years ago, because I know now I might have
said that but I know that it wasn’t several years, I am sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before the 22d of November, 1963, did you think
you met Jack?

Mrs. RICHEY. About a year before that, because Janice, we call her Nice
and Janice--had been working there for about a year I think. Now these
aren’t accurate dates, but about a year. I don’t believe I said several
years. I may have. I mean like you said I might have been upset and I
was nervous. As far as I know except for that “several years” that is
right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then is it your best recollection at this time that it is
accurate that you called Jack Ruby about noon on Saturday?

Mrs. RICHEY. That is something else I can’t be sure about. It may have
been noon. I just don’t remember. To me it seemed later than that, but
it may not have been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now how long did you talk with Jack on that occasion?

Mrs. RICHEY. Not but just a few minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything he said to you?

Mrs. RICHEY. I remember I called him and I said, “Jack, this is
Margie.” He said, “Yes.” and I said, “Could you tell me if we are going
to be open tonight?” and he said, “No, isn’t it terrible?” and I said,
“Do you mean about the President?” and he said, “Yes.” and his voice
was shaking and this isn’t like him.

I mean it really was. And then I said, “Well, we are not going to
be open.” because I didn’t want to go into it because that is what
everybody was talking about, and I, you know. So then he said, “No, we
won’t be open tonight or tomorrow night.”

“Sunday night” I believe is what he said. We were always open 7 days a
week and this was unusual to me because Jack very seldom ever closed
the club. So I mean this is why I can pretty well remember this. I
could see him staying closed one night, but the other two clubs in
Dallas were opening, so I figured you know that he would.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know that they were?

Mrs. RICHEY. It was in the paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you checked the newspaper before you called him?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t remember that. I must have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In Irving do you get a Dallas paper?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you subscribe to a Dallas paper at that time?

Mrs. RICHEY. I can’t remember that. I lived with my parents at the
time that this happened, and if there was a Dallas morning newspaper
there, well then it could have been before noon. But if there wasn’t a
morning newspaper there it had to be a Times Herald and that comes in
the afternoon, and I don’t remember which paper I read.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now on Friday or Saturday did you talk with any other
people connected with the Carousel Club except for Andy Armstrong and
Jack Ruby?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Little Lynn?

Mrs. RICHEY. No. I don’t know any of the showgirls. I mean the only
girls that I was friendly with at all was the other waitresses. I mean
I would talk to them, you know, like that, but as far as really you
know, knowing them or anything like that, well I didn’t. It was just
the other waitresses. And I may have talked to Bonny or Becky, I don’t
remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk to or see Jack Ruby again after----

Mrs. RICHEY. After I talked to him on Saturday?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. RICHEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Since then have you talked with anyone or learned anything
about when Jack first got the idea about shooting Lee Oswald?

Mrs. RICHEY. We talked this at the club. I mean everybody was talking
about it. But as far as anybody saying that--when he was going to shoot
Oswald or anything like this, I don’t recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with Kathy Kay at all?

Mrs. RICHEY. No. In fact I think I just saw Kathy Kay one time after
the club was reopened--was all that I saw her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Didn’t she come back to work?

Mrs. RICHEY. No; she didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long had she been working there?

Mrs. RICHEY. Longer than I had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think it was unusual that she didn’t come back to
work?

Mrs. RICHEY. Well, not really. She went with a policeman in Dallas, so
to me I think this, you know, he would have probably felt that this
would look bad on him for Kathy working there. This was my impression,
I mean.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know this policeman that she was going with?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t know his name and I doubt if I’d know him if I saw
him today, but I mean he had come in the club and I remember he was a
real tall guy, nice built, but I don’t even remember his name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your understanding that she was living with this
policeman before the 22d of November?

Mrs. RICHEY. That was my impression.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you get that impression?

Mrs. RICHEY. Other girls talking.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know where they were living?

Mrs. RICHEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you heard anything to the effect that they were living
near Jack?

Mrs. RICHEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she come to work at all after, Kathy Kay? Did she come
to work at all to your recollection after Jack shot Oswald?

Mrs. RICHEY. I quit work the day before New Year’s, wasn’t it, because
I wouldn’t work New Year’s night--yes, and from the time that Oswald
was killed--the time I quit--she hadn’t worked again, but I had seen
her one time, and I believe that she had come after her costumes, but
I can’t even be real sure about that but it seems like that is why she
was there and she was crying. I remember that. I don’t know why she was
crying. Now she talked to some of the other waitresses but I never did
find out why she was crying.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us the names of the other waitresses who
talked with her?

Mrs. RICHEY. Was Dianna a waitress? Let me clarify myself. Dianna is a
waitress; but she also was a showgirl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Dianna Hunter?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes; he knows them better than I do. She also worked as
a waitress and a showgirl too. Now this is the only one that I know
anything about, but like I say only the waitresses. And I believe she
talked to her. It seems like there was two, but I don’t remember the
other one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually see Kathy Kay crying or did you hear that
she was?

Mrs. RICHEY. I sat down at the table that they were sitting at. It
seems like there was three girls sitting there and I sat down and
somebody came in the door and I got up. She had a Kleenex and a cup of
coffee or tea or something in a cup and she was wiping tears away.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that after Oswald was shot; how many days?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t remember that; not even approximately. It couldn’t
have been too long though. I don’t even know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first go to work after Oswald was shot?

Mrs. RICHEY. I can’t remember if I went to work Monday or Tuesday. The
same night the club opened I went back to work, and I can’t remember
now if that was the following Monday. It seems like it was, but it may
have been Tuesday. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By the following Monday you mean the very next day?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or the day after.

Mrs. RICHEY. The same week that it happened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see this boy friend that Kathy Kay was going with
at all after Oswald was shot?

Mrs. RICHEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Little Lynn continue to work at the club after Oswald
was shot?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she work there until you left in January?

Mrs. RICHEY. No; she quit before I quit. Now I don’t know when she
quit, but she quit before I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know why she quit?

Mrs. RICHEY. Well, I don’t know why she quit; but that was the same
day--something was in the newspapers about her and right now I don’t
remember what it was, because there was quite a bit about her in the
newspaper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the time she carried the gun into the courtroom?

Mrs. RICHEY. That might have been it. I don’t remember really, because
there was one time that she was kidnaped or lost or ran away or
something and they get confused in my mind and I am not real sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you talk with her, Little Lynn that is, at all after
Oswald was shot?

Mrs. RICHEY. If I did I don’t remember what was said or if I even did
talk to her. I am not real sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard anything which would indicate what
information she may have had that Ruby was going to shoot Oswald?

Mrs. RICHEY. No; I hadn’t even heard anything to that effect.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you heard anything about how she happened to make the
telephone call to Ruby? Did you know that she made a telephone call to
Ruby early Sunday morning?

Mrs. RICHEY. For rent?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. RICHEY. Isn’t that why she called him? I read that in the paper?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with her about it?

Mrs. RICHEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear any of her story about why she called
him?

Mrs. RICHEY. No; that was the only reason I knew was that she needed
some rent, and the way it went in the paper was that Jack went down to
the telegraph office before he went to shoot Oswald to send her the
money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This is a repetitive question. I ask you again do you
recall on Friday or Saturday seeing anybody else from the Carousel Club
besides Jack Ruby?

Mrs. RICHEY. I didn’t see anybody.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or talking. You didn’t see anybody and you didn’t talk to
anybody besides----

Mrs. RICHEY. Not unless it was Bonny or Becky and I may have talked to
them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who are Bonny or Becky?

Mrs. RICHEY. They are waitresses at the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is Bonny’s last name?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t know. Becky’s is Jones.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So at the time on the 22d there were four waitresses at
the club, Dianna Hunter, Becky Jones, Bonny and yourself?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t remember if Dianna was dancing or if she was
waitressing. I am not real sure about that even right now. She was
doing one or the other. She was there. I just can’t remember which one
it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well now did the girls, while they were employed as
dancers, also serve as waitresses to some extent?

Mrs. RICHEY. There was one girl that did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t remember her name. The first time I ever met her,
she was an amateur dancer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack employing her as an amateur?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes; but then sometimes she’d work as waitress and then
one night one of the girls didn’t show up or something. I think this
was on a Sunday night. This was before this happened I mean, and one
of the girls didn’t show up and Jack asked her if she would dance, and
I think she danced, and we had three shows, I mean you know, it was
continuous, but it was three shows, and she danced. And then--you will
have to pardon me, I have to recollect this in my mind.

Then it seems like she come back down after she got through dancing and
was waitressing some more, and she did I think until her next number,
and then Jack told her that I could handle the floor by myself. And I
can’t remember if Dianna ever waitressed and danced at the same time.
I don’t remember that. She might have. Just right now I can’t remember
but that girl I happen to know because I was working by myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the dancers mix with the customers in between their
acts?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And am I correct in assuming that the purpose of this was
to induce the customers to buy drinks and so forth?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And did the customers buy drinks for the girls as well as
for themselves?

Mrs. RICHEY. The only thing you can buy in Texas, I don’t know if you
know this, is setups and champagne. You can’t buy liquor across the
bar. And so if they were drinking, well you know they had a bottle, and
if not they had bought, you know, drinks for the girls, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember an incident that occurred with Jack’s
stripper Jada? Can you tell us about that?

Mrs. RICHEY. I can’t give you details on it. I can tell you what I know
about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us what you observed, not what you heard from other
people but what you actually saw take place.

Mrs. RICHEY. What I saw Jada do?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. RICHEY. She was from New Orleans, and she kind of danced a little
bit different from what I was used to seeing. I don’t know how you
would explain it. A G-string, is that what you call it, she popped it,
if I can make you understand what I am talking about, and I saw her
do this one time, and Jack would cut the lights out on her and she’d
get mad. Now this is what they had the fight about, because Jack would
shut the lights out on her when she got too dirty for him. I mean he’d
just shut the lights out. And so if I am not mistaken this is what they
kept arguing about. Finally they went to court one night. But this was
because that she had popped her G-string again. But I didn’t see it
that night. Becky did, and she went down to court with him and they
were gone quite awhile. But Jada won and he had to pay her and then she
left. And that was Jada.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack threaten her or hit her in any way?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t know if he hit her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he threaten her in any way?

Mrs. RICHEY. You have got to understand I’m working there while all
this is going and I can’t recall him saying anything. I don’t even
know if he hit her, because her dressing room was like this and then
back down, and so it was, you know, you couldn’t see it from where we
worked. And I know they were hollering. But now I can’t tell you what
they were saying. I just know they were kind of raising their voices.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you seen her snap this G-string on more than one
occasion?

Mrs. RICHEY. No; I just happened to see her this one time and that was
the first night she was ever there that she did this, and then she was
wearing less than what the other girls were wearing, and Jack made her
get a different little dohickey more.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now she started work there in the middle of the summer,
didn’t she?

Mrs. RICHEY. She couldn’t have started in the middle of the summer. She
didn’t come until after I was working there, and I know it was after I
was working there but I don’t remember the date.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You started in June?

Mrs. RICHEY. I started in June.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall if Jada was there by Labor Day?

Mrs. RICHEY. Labor Day is in September; isn’t it?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mrs. RICHEY. I can’t remember. I remember she was a big draw card. I
mean you know people really came to see her for awhile there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This incident with the G-string though, you saw it in the
very first act?

Mrs. RICHEY. The very first time she was ever up there, I mean you know
we’d heard so much about the big great Jada and we were really thinking
boy this is going to be different; and it was. But here--Jack told her
that she couldn’t do that, that she’d have to get more clothes on than
what she had on. She couldn’t do that in Texas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she then put on more clothes?

Mrs. RICHEY. I can’t remember if she did the same night or not but I
know finally she did get some little other things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have troubles with her though after the first night?

Mrs. RICHEY. They were generally fussing about a lot of things. I mean
I don’t remember what they are, but that was the one thing that I know
was the big thing as far as I know. But the rest of the things I don’t
know. I mean he’d fuss at her because she’s late and it seems like she
went to New Orleans one time for her son or something like this, and
she didn’t get back, and he kind of got mad about this. But that is
all I remember them fussing about is just those two incidents, and her
being late.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you notice anything about Jack in the 2 or 3 months
before he shot Oswald that would indicate that he was more or less
disturbed about things in general than he had been on other occasions?

Mrs. RICHEY. No; I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack’s behavior in the month, would you say that Jack’s
behavior in the month or so before the President arrived was typical of
his behavior at other times?

Mrs. RICHEY. I didn’t pay particular attention, but I mean to me it
seems like that this wasn’t any change at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall any arguments or differences of opinion that
he had with any of his MC’s, masters of ceremony?

Mrs. RICHEY. Wally Weston.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was that?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t know what it was. I just remember that Wally was a
good MC. I mean he was the best that they had ever had, and something
happened and I don’t know what it was, but Wally either quit or got
fired, and I was there the night that he quit, but they were hollering,
and when Jack hollers you don’t understand what he is saying because he
has got a little bit of an accent and it kind of goes, you know, all
together. To me he has an accent. To somebody else he might not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did this occur?

Mrs. RICHEY. You ask dates and I can’t tell you dates.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long before the President was shot?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t know. I don’t have any idea.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it as much as 3 months?

Mrs. RICHEY. I can tell you the MC’s we had after him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, who were the MC’s?

Mrs. RICHEY. Sal Vincent. Remember the guy that sang----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that Johnny Turner?

Mrs. RICHEY. I believe it was. Yes; he is the one that had it, what do
you call it, dummies, ventriloquist. There was one that was there--now,
that was after.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Bill DeMar come in? Do you remember Bill DeMar?

Mrs. RICHEY. Yes; he was there before. Yes; Bill DeMar, but he was
there before and after. I mean he was there when this happened. Was Sal
there before? Come to think of it----

Mr. GRIFFIN. The short fat man you are talking about?

Mrs. RICHEY. The one with the toupee, the stupid man. He wasn’t there
before? Oh, I thought he was. He knows about as much as I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anyhow----

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t remember the date though.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Wally Weston leave as a result of this argument?

Mrs. RICHEY. I don’t know if it was this argument. Maybe it was
because he wouldn’t let Shari, his wife, come back. She was a dancer
there. Shari Angel. I don’t know, it seems like that was why they were
arguing, because he wouldn’t let Shari come back, but I am not even
real sure about that, but I remember that was an argument between them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever express in your presence any opinions about
Earl Norman?

Mrs. RICHEY. No. Earl worked there one week, but he never said anything
to me about Earl.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see anybody at the Carousel Club who in any
way resembled Lee Oswald?

Mrs. RICHEY. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I haven’t got any further questions at this point, so if
there is anything that you would like to tell us, is there anything
that I haven’t covered that you think we should know about?

Mrs. RICHEY. No, you have covered about all of it. I am afraid I
haven’t been much help because I have tried to put this out of my mind.
I want to try to forget it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think you have been very helpful to us and I want to
thank you for coming all this distance for a short period of time like
this. I hope you enjoy your stay in Washington.

Mrs. RICHEY. We are leaving right away. Could you tell me if I will be
called again?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No. Yes; I can tell you the answer is that you won’t be
called. I don’t expect that there will be any reason to call you.
Excuse me; there is one thing I want to do before we finish here. I
have marked Exhibit 1 for identification as previously indicated in the
record, and I want to ask you if you have read it over and if you have
any other changes to make other than the ones that you mentioned as you
read it.

Mrs. RICHEY. Let me read it again. This says here that Janice was just
a cocktail waitress, and she was just a waitress. “Several years,” I
can’t remember, I haven’t known him that long.

I didn’t know him that long at that time. I may have said that then. I
won’t say that I didn’t. And the noon; to me it seems like that it was
later and it may have been or it may not have been. I am not really
sure about that either. And that is about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, if that is satisfactory then I would like you
to take this pencil and sign it down there by my name.

Mrs. RICHEY. Where is your name?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I haven’t put my name on. Just sign it right where I have
marked it.

Mrs. RICHEY. These things won’t matter then that is in here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No, we have corrected it in the record and the record will
reflect it.

Mrs. RICHEY. Do you want me to sign it Margie?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any way you ordinarily sign it is all right.

Mrs. RICHEY. Margie.

Mr. RICHEY. How do you go about getting a copy of the record?

Mr. GRIFFIN. We have some provision for giving it to you at whatever
expense it is. I don’t know what it is, but you are entitled to a copy
of it. We will send a copy of this out to you people in Cleveland,
probably to the U.S. attorney’s office in Cleveland, and ask you to
come in and read it.

Mrs. RICHEY. Again?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Read the transcript that we are making here.

Mrs. RICHEY. And then I sign it just like I have signed this?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is right. If there are any mistakes.

Mrs. RICHEY. It won’t be this long so it will be a little bit clear in
my mind.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t think you will have any trouble but every once
in a while there is some mistake that creeps into the record. Not too
many. So we would like you to come in and read it over and then sign it
and return it to us. Then you can get a copy of that and arrangements
can be made to purchase it through us, or the testimony is going to be
printed and memorialized and there will be many thousands of copies of
this made.

Mrs. RICHEY. This will be?

Mr. GRIFFIN. This will be sent all around the country. All the
libraries in the major cities will certainly have them, but if you want
a personal copy, why we can have one made up.

Mr. RICHEY. The town I come from the people aren’t very broadminded.

Mrs. RICHEY. There is not very many Richeys around.

Mr. GRIFFIN. There will be volumes and volumes of this testimony. I
might ask your husband just one question. You are here and you are not
under oath and you aren’t obliged to answer it, but since you are here
I will ask you if there is anything that you would like to contribute
as a result of having heard this deposition?

Mr. RICHEY. As you could gather, I knew Jack Ruby myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. RICHEY. I spoke with him the night before I left for home, which is
the night before President Kennedy was killed, and he seemed normal.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you see him?

Mr. RICHEY. At the club. I was sitting there at the club waiting for
Margie to finish work. He come up, sat alongside me, asked what I
thought of the job. And to me of course in my own opinion he was always
off somewhere in his mind. He asked me a question but he didn’t listen
to my answer. He was thinking of something else completely, which is
just talking. This is the impression the man gave me in the first place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you at the club Thursday night?

Mr. RICHEY. Oh, I worked at a liquor store in Dallas.

Mrs. RICHEY. No.

Mr. RICHEY. I got out of the Army that Thursday and I spent that whole
evening----

Mrs. RICHEY. No, Wednesday, the 20th, and you left Thursday morning so
you didn’t see Jack.

Mr. RICHEY. Wednesday night I spent the night at the club. This is the
night that I talked to Jack Ruby. That is right; I am sorry. And the
President was shot the following day.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You spent Wednesday night at the club. About how long were
you there?

Mr. RICHEY. Most of the whole night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you talk with Jack on that occasion?

Mr. RICHEY. Oh, just a couple minutes. It wasn’t very busy if I can
remember, and he come up and sat alongside of me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention anything to you about the fact that the
President was coming to town?

Mr. RICHEY. No. I was aware myself that the President was coming, but I
didn’t know he was coming to Dallas because they were expecting him at
Fort Hood, Tex. They kind of had a feeling he might stop in. They were
getting ready for this big inspection, but I didn’t know he was coming
to Dallas. This was a surprise to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have anything else that you can think of?

Mr. RICHEY. No, I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to thank you both again, and I hope you have a
pleasant trip back.



TESTIMONY OF JAMES THOMAS AYCOX

The testimony of James Thomas Aycox was taken at 10 a.m., on July 24,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.


Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself. My name is Burt Griffin. I am a
member of the general counsel’s staff on the President’s Commission on
the Assassination of President Kennedy.

I want to tell you a little bit about the procedure that we are going
to follow here and what we are trying to do, and then I will administer
the oath to you.

The Commission, as you may or may not know, was set up pursuant to an
Executive order which was issued by President Johnson in November of
last year, and also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress.

Under this joint resolution, the Commission has been given authority
to promulgate various rules and regulations. Under those rules and
regulations I have been designated to take your testimony here today.

The Commission was directed by President Johnson to inquire into and
to evaluate and report back to President Johnson about all the facts
relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee
Oswald.

In calling you here today, we are particularly interested in finding
out what you know about Jack Ruby and, if anything, about the murder
of Lee Oswald, and also if you have any information in other areas, we
would like to get that, too. Let me ask you a preliminary question.

Mr. AYCOX. Is it all right if I smoke?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.

Did you receive a letter from the Commission?

Mr. AYCOX. Yes. Here is the letter.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you receive that?

Mr. AYCOX. Sunday morning. See, I used to live at this address, but I
moved to the 2800 block, just a half block, and I still go up there
sometimes to get my mail. So the lady accepted it and brought it to my
house Sunday morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The reason I ask is, you are entitled to receive notice of
an appearance 3 days before you actually are supposed to arrive here,
but I see that you have had the 3 days’ notice; so we are in good shape
there.

Before I administer the oath, do you have any questions that you want
to ask me about the proceedings that will take place in the next half
hour.

Mr. AYCOX. No, not at the present, I don’t. I will wait and if there is
anything I want to ask, I will stop you and ask you later.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Fine. Feel free to. If you will raise your right hand, I
would like to administer the oath.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. AYCOX. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state for the reporter here your full name.

Mr. AYCOX. James Thomas Aycox.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your address?

Mr. AYCOX. 2819 Hibernia.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. AYCOX. I know him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you first happen to meet Jack Ruby?

Mr. AYCOX. Well, I went out to his club and played. The first night we
went out there to play, his sister was running the place.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the Vegas Club?

Mr. AYCOX. Vegas Club, and she had to have an operation the first night
I played with another band. We just played one night.

The next night, about a week later, we got a steady job there, and she
had to have an operation, and she told us he would be taking over and
handling both clubs until she got out of the hospital, and for us to
follow his orders, and that is how I met him.

One night he came out before she went to the hospital, and she
introduced me to him, and then he came out and emceed the show.

We had a show on Friday and Saturday nights at the Vegas Club and he
come out and emceed the show.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of shows did he have at the Vegas Club on Friday
and Saturdays?

Mr. AYCOX. Just a rock-and-roll. Different artists come from other
clubs, recording artists around town come out and did three or four
numbers, tap dance and sing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have any stripteasers at the Vegas Club?

Mr. AYCOX. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work at the Vegas Club?

Mr. AYCOX. Let me see, it was 2 or 3 weeks before this came up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember when you quit working at the Vegas?

Mr. AYCOX. Well, it was in the wintertime. It was kind of cold. I don’t
recall the date, but I think it was in November, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it before or after President Kennedy was shot?

Mr. AYCOX. It was before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before President Kennedy was shot?

Mr. AYCOX. Well, it was about, maybe 3 or 4 days, or a week, or
something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to quit?

Mr. AYCOX. Well, things weren’t going right out there. I couldn’t get
along with the band. He had told me to do one thing, and the guy that
was playing there before I was, but we were playing mechanical all
night. He would never say anything to the artists and tell them we will
be here again and what time we would open. Mr. Ruby came out on Sunday
and would drill us, and he wouldn’t want us to play mechanical all
night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you mean by mechanical?

Mr. AYCOX. That is playing and not singing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. He wanted you to put on a little performance?

Mr. AYCOX. That’s right, and tell some kind of jokes, plug for the
club. So this guy was the pianoplayer with the band before I started,
and when the other band left, he stayed and taken over the band.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you replace the Joe Johnson band?

Mr. AYCOX. That’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of the band that you were in?

Mr. AYCOX. I don’t really know what the name of this band was. I played
with Leonard Wood. He was the band leader.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you play in the band called the Players?

Mr. AYCOX. That is the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Leonard Wood then replaced Joe Johnson?

Mr. AYCOX. But he was working with Joe first. Then after Joe left, he
stayed to take over.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is Leonard the pianoplayer?

Mr. AYCOX. Leonard is the pianoplayer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you play?

Mr. AYCOX. I played drums.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many other pieces were in the band?

Mr. AYCOX. We had a bass player and a saxophone and guitar. Four other
pieces besides the piano. Five all together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had any of your four people, not including Leonard Wood,
had you four people played together before?

Mr. AYCOX. Not exactly. I played, sat in some jobs, but I never worked
steady. Nobody but the guitar player.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this a group that Leonard Wood arranged?

Mr. AYCOX. It was a group that he organized.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you people belong to a union or have any agent or
anything like that?

Mr. AYCOX. Well, I belonged to the union myself, and I guess some of
the other fellows belonged to the union, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have agents?

Mr. AYCOX. No; not for this particular job. We have agents, but this
particular job, I just got it accidentally.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Leonard Wood stay on with the band?

Mr. AYCOX. After I left?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, was he there all the time you were there?

Mr. AYCOX. He was there all the time; but he started replacing Leonard
and got another pianoplayer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack tried to replace Leonard?

Mr. AYCOX. Leonard didn’t want to follow out the orders, and he told
him, “You either do like I say or you have to leave.” So Leonard said
he spent his time running around to get the fellows together and
picking up people to get there to rehearse, but he still didn’t want
to do what Ruby said, so Leonard stayed on, and we got to where we
couldn’t get along, so on a Wednesday night, I believe I told him I
decided to quit and go with another band, because I did what Mr. Ruby
said, but still I wasn’t pleasing Leonard, so I didn’t call him or tell
him nothing.

I didn’t get a chance to see him because every time I called him at the
club the line was busy. And this Wednesday night I decided to leave, so
they got another drummer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before you left did Jack start to try to replace
Leonard Wood?

Mr. AYCOX. He just told me that, once or twice. One night after we
finished playing, he would come from the other club over here and see
how things were, and then I guess one of the waitresses, she must have
told him that he asked me to sing three or four numbers and Leonard
didn’t want me to sing those numbers. Leonard wanted to be the whole
show and he didn’t have what it takes to compete with everybody else
on the show, so he just got cross, and he was the band leader. I had a
chance to take over the band out at the club out there, but he didn’t
want to follow out the orders, so I decided to leave.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Eva Grant work at the club at all during the last week
that you were there?

Mr. AYCOX. She hadn’t gotten out of the hospital yet, I don’t think,
because we sent her a card out to the hospital. She hadn’t came out of
the hospital yet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she work there at all when you were employed there?

Mr. AYCOX. She worked there about a week after I started playing there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The first week that you were there, she was at the club?

Mr. AYCOX. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then the next week, you didn’t see her?

Mr. AYCOX. I don’t think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of clientele did they have at the Vegas Club?

Mr. AYCOX. What kind of what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Patrons.

Mr. AYCOX. Well, they were pretty nice; you know. They came out some
nights. Quite naturally on Friday and Saturday there would be more
people than through the week. Some nights through the week we had a
pretty nice crowd.

But here is the point. After Joe left, Leonard had been playing with
Joe--Joe had a style of his own, so Leonard wanted to play behind
Joe’s style. So Mr. Ruby tried to point out to Leonard to pick up a
style of his own, because Joe was gone and he got another job, and to
try to pick up a style and quit trying to sell Joe, because he would be
just helping Joe.

Joe left, and then people come out, and Leonard kept trying to play
Joe’s pattern, but we didn’t have the band, because we didn’t know
how Joe played and everybody had a different style, and Leonard kept
wanting to play behind Joe, because he had been working with Joe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Joe happen to quit?

Mr. AYCOX. I don’t know why he quit or nothing like that, but I just
heard he was going to quit, and maybe he got a job paying more money.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On how many Sundays during the time you were with Ruby did
Mr. Ruby come out to the club and give you instructions?

Mr. AYCOX. I think about 3. I don’t think I stayed there over 3 weeks,
maybe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come out every Sunday?

Mr. AYCOX. He come out every Sunday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you rehearse on Sundays?

Mr. AYCOX. Well, suppose to rehearse from about 1 o’clock to 3.
Sometimes from 1:30 to 2:30, something like that. Sometimes we
rehearsed to 3.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come out and stay the entire time?

Mr. AYCOX. Yes; he came out. Sometimes he might be there a little
earlier than the band, or maybe the band might get there a little
early, but he would be out there to open up, and then we were
rehearsing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked for the purpose of
identification as James Aycox Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit No.
1. This is a document that consists of two pages, and it purports to
be a copy of an interview report prepared by FBI Agent Hughes, who had
this interview with you on December 14, 1963. Take your time and read
it over. I want to know whether that is an accurate report of what you
told him on December 14.

Mr. AYCOX (reading report). This was not the fellow. There was another
fellow here that was a member of the band. There were five of us.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was the fifth fellow?

Mr. AYCOX. Milton Thomas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that Brother Bear?

Mr. AYCOX. This is right [returning document].

Mr. GRIFFIN. If that is all right, then if you would sign it on the
first page where I have marked.

Mr. AYCOX. Right here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is all right; yes.

Mr. AYCOX. This is where you want me to sign?

Mr. GRIFFIN. You can sign it near the top where I put the marks on the
page.

Mr. AYCOX (signing). Both pages?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why don’t you initial the second page?

Mr. AYCOX. Initial this one?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; just put your initials there.

(Mr. Aycox initials.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much. I appreciate your coming in this
morning.



TESTIMONY OF THOMAS STEWART PALMER

The testimony of Thomas Stewart Palmer, was taken at 10:25 a.m., on
July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W.
Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.


Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me start by introducing myself again. I am Burt
Griffin, and I am a member of the general counsel staff of the
President’s Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

I want to tell you a little bit about the Commission and what we expect
to do here today before I administer the oath and ask you to testify.
The Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order issued by
President Johnson on November 29, 1963, and also pursuant to a joint
resolution of Congress. Under these two official acts, the Commission
has been directed to inquire into, evaluate, and report back to
President Johnson on all the facts that relate to the assassination of
President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald. We have asked you
to come here today, Mr. Palmer, particularly because you have had some
past dealings with Jack Ruby, and we are hopeful that you can shed some
light on the kind of person that Jack Ruby was.

Now, under the rules and regulations of the Commission, I have been
designated to take your deposition here today. Before we ask anybody to
be sworn, the rules of the Commission provide that you are entitled to
a 3-day written notice of your presence here, and I will ask you first
of all if you have received a letter from the Commission 3 days before?

Mr. PALMER. I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions about the testimony that is
about to be taken?

Mr. PALMER. None.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you will raise your right hand, I will administer the
oath.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give, will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PALMER. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name?

Mr. PALMER. Thomas Stewart Palmer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you now live?

Mr. PALMER. 2728 West Davis.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How are you employed?

Mr. PALMER. I am self-employed, an entertainer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of entertaining do you do?

Mr. PALMER. Magician and comedian.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the Dallas area?

Mr. PALMER. Primarily.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you employed in any particular place?

Mr. PALMER. Not at the present time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you formerly an official of the AGVA?

Mr. PALMER. I was branch manager.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was that?

Mr. PALMER. Here in Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were you branch manager for AGVA?

Mr. PALMER. About a year and a half.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did your employment begin and when did it end?

Mr. PALMER. It ended in February of this year and began--when would it
be, a year and a half prior to that?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sometime in 1963?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, during the period that you were branch manager of
AGVA, did you have occasion to have some dealings with Jack Ruby?

Mr. PALMER. Frequently.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you known Ruby before you became branch manager?

Mr. PALMER. Slightly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How had you happened to know him?

Mr. PALMER. Well, he had employed me as a fill-in entertainer on, I
believe, about two occasions. Other than that, I had never met him
before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In what clubs did you work for him?

Mr. PALMER. At the Carousel.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time you were working for him, what was your
relationship with him as an employee, how did you find him as an
employer?

Mr. PALMER. No different than most. Perhaps he felt he was doing a lot
for the entertainers, but this is not uncommon. Most entrepreneurs feel
they are impresarios or something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you became branch manager of AGVA, you had occasion,
I take it, to deal with him on a number of times?

Mr. PALMER. Yes, sir.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us, try to reconstruct chronologically how
your relationship with him as an AGVA representative proceeded.

Mr. PALMER. Well, it was quite amicable in all instances. The single
element that certainly perturbed me most, from the standpoint of being
a branch manager of AGVA, was that Jack was reluctant and hesitant to
meet all of the obligations of a union house as that is, and it was
constantly necessary for me to visit him and prod him.

With the advent of the McClellan investigation, AGVA became quite
sensitive to certain practices that Jack and other clubs freely
subscribed to, and in the latter months of our association, I had been
collecting data that indicated Jack was continuing to violate certain
rules of AGVA that could have been awkward for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the rules that you felt he was violating?

Mr. PALMER. Well, AGVA has no jurisdiction over what is called a B-girl
or a girl who is primarily in a club to promote consumption of liquor
and services. However, they do not want their members, AGVA members
to engage in this practice. Jack very frequently made it clear to
our members whom he engaged that it was expected of them, and those
who were not in great demand found they could stay at his club for a
long time if they were to sit down and have a convivial drink with a
customer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you go about collecting this information on it?

Mr. PALMER. Jack was impulsive and he would make an instant enemy as
quickly as he would win him back as a friend, and it was not difficult
to find a girl who had had a slight altercation with him who would sign
an affidavit indicating that Jack had demanded that she associate with
the customers in the capacity of a B-drinker only.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does AGVA have such affidavits, or did they have such
affidavits?

Mr. PALMER. They do not at the present time. I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have those with you?

Mr. PALMER. I don’t have them with me. I can get them for you within
the hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If you would, I would appreciate that very much. Do you
remember right now some of the names of the people who swore out
affidavits against him?

Mr. PALMER. I collected only three, because that was sufficient proof.
However, in conversation with all of them, they indicated that this was
the truth, but they were hesitant to put it in writing. Little Lynn,
I believe, was one of the girls. I don’t know her full name. I would
have to look it up in the AGVA files. There was an exotic girl from New
Orleans.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jada?

Mr. PALMER. Jada.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other rules that Jack was violating?

Mr. PALMER. Not knowingly. He was hesitant in his payment of welfare
to AGVA for his personnel. He was not the only one. This is a common
shortcoming of most club owners.

His affiliation with the Vegas Club, was an affiliation he should not
have been affiliated with, since the club was theoretically in his
sister’s name, and I had been given to believe that his operation here
was separate. It could be a point of contention with AGVA.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why shouldn’t he have been associated with the Vegas Club,
under your rules?

Mr. PALMER. Well, our rules are that an owner who cannot subscribe
but only partially to our union, if his business is all entertainment
business, then he must have been either entirely AGVA, or not at all.
I am quite sure this was why the Vegas was presented as being in his
sister’s name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. From your experience with Jack, were you able to form any
impression of the extent of employee turnover that he had?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did his turnover compare to that of other employers in
the business?

Mr. PALMER. Well, it was great, the rate of turnover, until he would
eventually hire an entertainer who was either capable of standing the
pace that he set in his club, or until he hired someone who wanted to
settle down in Dallas and was willing to work for a little less and
perhaps a little more frequently per night.

Another of Jack’s possible infringements on AGVA rules and regulations,
and it was never clarified in AGVA, was his continuous show policy.
This made his finding a new master of ceremonies, whenever it was
necessary, virtually impossible, because there are few emcees who can
go on and on all evening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did AGVA have a policy against continuous shows?

Mr. PALMER. Not at the outset. There was confusion in this respect
between the New York office and the west coast office. I remember
Mazzie’s office and Jackie Bright’s office--Bright was ousted and Bobby
Faye made several directives that were countermanded by the west coast,
and the union became rather decentralized in its authority.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But eventually did somebody who had jurisdiction over
Dallas issue a rule of some sort that there should be no continuous
shows?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was that?

Mr. PALMER. I issued it at the direction of Bobby Faye of New York
City, who was the executive administrator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that before or after the President was assassinated?

Mr. PALMER. Before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before?

Mr. PALMER. Probably about 6 months before.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack Ruby’s response to that rule?

Mr. PALMER. Jack liked to pretend and let me know he was pretending to
comply fully. Agreeably, I should say. His mode of compliance again
was only a halfhearted thing, and he did take breaks which then split
the show into four shows a night. But I informed him that the breaks
weren’t adequate; they should be longer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long were the breaks?

Mr. PALMER. They were supposed to be 40 minutes. He was taking a 20-
to 30-minute break. I had to rely almost entirely on the emcees to
clock this, other than sit in the club myself. When I sat in the club
myself, they occurred. When I didn’t, I knew they weren’t occurring,
so I had to rely on the emcees. And the emcees relied on Jack Ruby for
employment, and often were not too stringent in clocking the breaks. So
this, with the affidavits of B-drinking could be considered as creating
a little pressure on Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mentioned before that some of the employees couldn’t
take the pace that Jack set. What did you have in mind when you
referred to pace?

Mr. PALMER. I meant strictly from a legal standpoint. The continuous
show policy; the idea of being on the premises at all times; plus
Jack’s personality was not constantly one way or the other. It was a
highly fluctuating thing and often led to misunderstandings.

Many masters of ceremony quit because they felt Jack was directing from
the floor, which he has a right to do, but not to the embarrassment of
an entertainer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would he direct, from the floor?

Mr. PALMER. He would indicate on occasion that a dancer midway through
her dance should cut it short, or the master of ceremonies should cut a
specific routine of his short, often while he was doing the routine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever told, or did you ever observe any kind of
performances that Jack Ruby didn’t approve of?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let’s focus strictly on the kind of joke that would be
told in the club. Were there any kind of jokes you learned he didn’t
permit to be told?

Mr. PALMER. He wouldn’t permit racial or religious jokes of obvious
dirty nature. It was not uncommon for one master of ceremonies to
tell several of his routine in colored dialect, Negro dialect, or
Jewish dialect, but this was screened carefully, and he was very
careful to see that it was not--it could have been risque, but not
filthy. In other words, he ran a very close check on certain types of
profanity. On the other hand, he was very free in permitting a master
of ceremonies his choice of material.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to learn about this?

Mr. PALMER. Well, now, not myself first hand. It was by Earl Norman who
complained to me one day that he had been telling this joke in Jack’s
establishment for several weeks, and apparently Jack had not heard it,
and asked him to delete it from his routine. Of course, this was a blow
to Earl in two ways. First of all, being told what material to choose,
and secondly, that he hadn’t been heard for 2 weeks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what the joke was?

Mr. PALMER. I cannot. I have been trying to think what it was. It was
an innocuous thing to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it a religious joke or a racial joke? Or was it a
sexual joke?

Mr. PALMER. I cannot honestly recall. It was an unimportant thing at
the time to me. I talked to Jack about his censoring Earl in this
particular instance, but as I recall, the joke wasn’t mentioned.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever or did anybody ever tell you prior to the
time that President Kennedy was assassinated that Jack didn’t permit
them to tell jokes about the Kennedy family?

Mr. PALMER. On the contrary, I heard jokes about the Kennedy family
and most other political figures in his establishment by Wally Weston.
I don’t know whether--it was not a large part of his routine, but I
believe I did hear him use them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did any of his employees ever complain to you about Jack
having physically abused them?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which employees, or which employee?

Mr. PALMER. Well, it was not what would constitute a complaint against
the employer, so I couldn’t follow it up from an AGVA or union
standpoint. But I know that he did strike Earl Norman on occasion and
call him a drunk and was detrimental to his career by calling other
establishments where Earl was employed, and indicating that he was an
inebriate.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Earl tell you this?

Mr. PALMER. Earl told me this, and our booking agent, Pappy Dolson,
indicated that he was having difficulty booking Earl because of things
that were being said, and he didn’t say that Jack had said them. Later
Jack admitted to me that he was the one that had said these things, and
he said he was sorry for them. And I believe at later date he did take
Earl back to work for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was this instance sometime before the President came to
Dallas?

Mr. PALMER. Yes. I think he struck Jada on occasion, or as she put it,
“shoved me around.”

Several of the other girls had been manhandled by Jack for various
reasons. I am not certain what they all are. Jack has a tendency to be
frugal to a point of not always being honest on occasion. The girls
would draw money in advance, and sometimes his bookkeeping was too much
in his favor for a very small amount. On the other hand, he was quick
to give them money if they needed it for anything. To buy a radio, he
would give them $40, but come payday, it might be $42 he thought he
gave, and it would take moments of understanding before he coughed up
the other $2.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the circumstances under which Jada quit
working for Jack?

Mr. PALMER. Partially.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she tell you about them, or did Jack?

Mr. PALMER. Yes; as a matter of fact, she filed a complaint with me
and he filed a complaint with me. Evidently, I believe the police were
called in by an agent to get it straightened out. Jack maintained,
after she had been there quite some time, that her act which originally
was not suitable for Dallas--however, it did pass the vice squad
critic--or claimed that she had reverted back to a New Orleans type of
dancing, which included front bumps and a couple of other things they
don’t like here--and was more suggestive than it should be.

Jack rushed to the light pillar and turned the lights out on her.
This was after he had thought that her contract was going to expire.
However, he failed to negotiate renewal of her contract subsequently. I
indicated to him her contract would have to run, despite his failure,
which I am sure was on purpose, to endorse renewal--would have to run
until the completion of the week. He had anticipated getting some new
talent in which would double him up on his budget, and he wanted Jada
out of there right away. I think this is what prompted his criticism of
her dance that evening. I had been in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you. Had he mentioned to you that he
wanted to get rid of Jada before he turned the lights out on her?

Mr. PALMER. He came into my office about a day and a half prior to
that to ask my thinking on the contract, and the contract that I had
on file in the office indicated that he was not obligated to keep
her. However, the contract that she had that had been signed on one
occasion indicated that it was to continue on past this date. He had
not notified my office of the renewal. This was not uncommon in most
offices. Renewals are by mutual consent, and very frequently the only
signed copy is the entertainer’s. Jada knew the rules, and she should
have had them signed. She did on one occasion.

However, being the artist’s representative primarily, termination had
to comply with our AGVA rules which assured her of at least the end of
the week, and if she were agreeable, that is fine. If she weren’t, she
should have held it for another week. So with this in mind, I told this
to Jack: “I will see what can be done about getting you off the hook at
the end of the week.” And he said, “Great”. Then I discussed with Jada
and she was quite adamant. She was going to complete her engagement.
And there was a little hard feeling because she said nobody is going
to shove me around. Then later, 2 days later or so, approximately, the
incident of the light.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did Jack want to replace her with another act?

Mr. PALMER. First of all, her salary was unusual for his establishment.
It was much higher than he was accustomed to paying. I was surprised
that he kept her as long as he had. With the advent of the affidavit,
I realized that her value to him was other than just simply as an
entertainer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she file the affidavit against him before he came in
and told you he wanted to fire her?

Mr. PALMER. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack come to AGVA with any problems about his
competitors?

Mr. PALMER. Frequently.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of complaints did he have about his competitors?

Mr. PALMER. That they were scheming to put him out of business, and
that they were practicing unfair tactics both from a civil standpoint
as well as union standpoint.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you be specific about the scheming that they did, that
he complained they did?

Mr. PALMER. Well, he claimed that the amateur night, which Mr. Barney
Weinstein originated, I think, many years ago, in Dallas, was taken
up by his brother Abe at the Colony, not because Abe needed it, but
because it blocked him out of using that same night as an amateur night
for his own draw, Jack Ruby’s, and this was a consolidated effort
between the two brothers to put him out of business, the Carousel. He
was constantly critical of their contribution to the AGVA welfare,
while he himself was decidedly delinquent.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he think they were more delinquent than he was?

Mr. PALMER. No; he just thought they were delinquent, and he was
bringing that to my attention while trying to keep his own delinquency
out of the topic of conversation. Frequently people he had let go
at his club might go to work for Barney. I don’t believe Abe would
ever use them. I think he did on one or two occasions, but Jack was
then always convinced that these people were, to use his terminology,
bad-mouthing him or talking unfairly about him behind his back.
Actually, his club was rated by AGVA at a lesser rate than the other
two, which permitted him to employ exotics and masters of ceremonies
and specialty acts at a lower rate, and I often pointed this out to
him. He then complained it should be even lower but it could not
possibly be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why was he permitted to pay them at a lesser rate?

Mr. PALMER. Clubs are rated deluxe, A, B, C, and D and his was far from
being deluxe, which allowed about a $10 a week less minimum.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember what his rating was?

Mr. PALMER. I think it was a B house.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The rating is deluxe, and below that is A and B?

Mr. PALMER. Yes. The other two houses, I believe the Theatre Lounge
is an A and the Colony Club is a B, but it never, he never practiced
minimum rate.

See, we only guaranteed the minimum rate. The artist could negotiate
for anything above that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What factor did you take into account in determining what
rate?

Mr. PALMER. These houses had already been rated prior to my coming
into office here, and I didn’t feel that there was any necessity of
reevaluating them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I didn’t mean you in particular, but what are the
standards of giving new ratings in AGVA?

Mr. PALMER. There is controversy. I rate them primarily on seating
capacity, cover charge, and type of show budget. It has not been
delineated clearly in any of the offices.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby complain to you about the amateur nights
that the Weinsteins were running?

Mr. PALMER. Continuously. He stated that he didn’t like to run them
himself, but he had to in order to meet the competition. The other two
brothers, the same thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack ask you to do?

Mr. PALMER. He was constantly trying to have them disallowed by AGVA.
According to the first directive I received in office, they were to be
immediately discontinued.

However, I believe it was Abe Weinstein’s conversation, either in
person or by phone--I have forgotten which--I had both with Irving
Mazzie, that they were allowed to continue until clarification of
the amateur shows could be had. I was instructed to allow them to
continue. It was not indicated that it should be just simply for the
Weinsteins, but also for Jack Ruby, and any other club that might be
in my territory. I believe there was a club in Oklahoma that was also
contemplating it. At that time there became an upset in our executive
offices, and it was not clear to the people taking over whether they
should adhere to the previous policies.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did this first order come out that there was to be no
amateur nights?

Mr. PALMER. In October, I believe it was, originally.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of 1963 or 1962?

Mr. PALMER. 1962.

Mr. GRIFFIN. 1962?

Mr. PALMER. I believe that is when I first received the letter
indicating it was to all club owners.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby discontinue amateur night at any time, to
your knowledge?

Mr. PALMER. Yes; prior to my, well, unpleasantness, he began a series
of dishes, giving away dishes Thursday and hi-fi’s and everything else,
and had discontinued his amateur nights, and made quite a thing that he
was complying wholeheartedly. But it took him almost 4 or 5 months to
get around to complying.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he still complying in November of 1963?

Mr. PALMER. Yes; I believe, to the best of my knowledge, he was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall in November of 1963 that Jack was attempting
to persuade AGVA to terminate the amateur shows at the Weinstein club?

Mr. PALMER. Oh, yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us about what he did?

Mr. PALMER. He called Irving Mazzie on several occasions, and without
my receiving any confirmation either from Irving or from New York as to
what these conversations embodied, he instructed me that he was right,
Jack Ruby, and I agreed. However, I had a request to have the other
clubs shut down because of their noncompliance disregarded by New York.
So it became my policy, and probably the reason for my termination with
AGVA was that one or the other of the officers either the west coast or
the east coast, would have to come in and straighten this out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were getting conflicting orders, I take it?

Mr. PALMER. Yes; I was. My New York office and my regional office were
giving me conflicting orders.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Irving Mazzie, I remember, was telling you to shut them
down; is that right?

Mr. PALMER. He did not at first. The New York office told me to shut
them down, and Irving Mazzie said give them time. And there was this
banter back and forth on the west coast. They had, I think, the Pink
Pussy Cat and the Body Shop, were continuing their amateur nights and
Irving said to permit the clubs here to continue until they ceased on
the west coast. Eventually they ceased on the west coast, but there was
still this complete uncertainty, in my mind, about here, because he
continued to permit me to permit them to have their amateur nights.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any information that the Weinsteins were
talking to Mr. Mazzie or Mr. Faye?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So that while Jack Ruby was trying to persuade AGVA to
shut the Weinsteins down as far as amateur night was concerned, the
Weinsteins were talking to other people?

Mr. PALMER. Yes. As a matter of fact, perhaps it is my suggestion in
fact, I forwarded a letter from Barney Weinstein to, I believe it
was, Bobby Faye at that time. Yes, it was--concerning his part in
the establishment of the amateur nights and that it was definitely a
necessary thing for him to remain in business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that on or about the 13th of November of
1963 after Ruby had contacted Bobby Faye, you sent out a letter to
people in your district advising them that amateur nights were not
permitted?

Mr. PALMER. That is correct.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after that letter was sent out, what did the
Weinsteins do?

Mr. PALMER. I think Abe Weinstein suspended the thing, the amateur
nights for 2 weeks. I am not sure. I know that Jack was subscribing
wholeheartedly to the memo. And Barney indicated that he was going to
relinquish his affiliation with AGVA.

It became necessary then for me to indicate to our membership that
while it was legal for them to accept employment wherever they wished,
if it were in violation of our rules as a union, we were obligated to
exercise a fine on them. And this, I believe, right up to the minute of
the show, Barney indicated an indifference. Then he realized that this
would do two things.

First of all, put several of his people he liked out of business, or
in jeopardy, let us say, to the amount of $100, I believe, per person.
He decided to withdraw himself that evening and try to negotiate again
with New York. And again, there was much confusion.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby ever accuse you of showing favoritism?

Mr. PALMER. Frequently. On the other hand, I had to point out to him
that I exercised extreme leniency in his welfare, to which he agreed,
and was placated with this sort of thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. To your knowledge, were there other people in the business
who were also trying to get these amateur nights stopped?

Mr. PALMER. Yes. In fact, Irving Mazzie on the west coast, I believe,
came into civil court with the, I think it was, Body Shop, and received
several threats on his life.

The same thing occurred, I believe, in the State of Washington in
Seattle. There were three areas that seemed to subscribe more strongly
than the others to that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack Ruby the only nightclub operator who was trying
to get the amateur nights stopped, or were there others?

Mr. PALMER. Those who were not subscribing to it were not the least bit
interested, in my area.

On the west coast, yes, there were other nightclub owners who were
interested in having it stopped. I think this was essentially the time
of the entire movement, but Jack was the only nightclub operator who
was virtually trying to stop it.

Abe wanted, in his own words, to cease, but felt from a business
standpoint that he had to continue. He said it was a burden. I can see
where it would be to your regular show.

The Colony Club was situated so that it did not require this gimmick at
anytime really to pep up business.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you about some of Ruby’s employees in
particular. Was Tammi True an AGVA member?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Kathy Kay?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Little Lynn?

Mr. PALMER. Not exactly. She had placed a down payment, and I don’t
believe she ever finished payment.

However, AGVA permits, as long as you are making a conscientious effort
to pay your initiation dues, a 60-day period. During that 60 days, they
can work on a temporary card type basis.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know why Kathy Kay did not return to work for Jack
Ruby’s club after Jack was arrested?

Mr. PALMER. No. I know only that she said she was afraid to and wanted
to get out of town. I understood that she was leaving town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was she afraid about?

Mr. PALMER. I don’t know. She was terribly upset, of course, about the
assassination, as everyone was, and she did not confide in me as to the
reason for this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But she did talk to you about it?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did she first come in and talk to you about it?

Mr. PALMER. It was a Tuesday after the murder.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she come to your office?

Mr. PALMER. I think she called. I remember seeing her in person but
I can’t recall whether it was in the office or in the coffee shop
downstairs. No, it was in the office, because she had been into the
office of Pappy Dolson’s booking agent on the same floor with AGVA in
the Interurban Building, and I believe, again I am not sure, I know it
was in the Interurban Building or the immediate surroundings and she
was inquiring as to her pay status because of this.

And of course, this being a new thing, I wanted to check it out. Mr.
Paul, I was not aware, would take over the club at that time. So only
after talking to him did I discover that yes, her contract would
continue to be valid and there would be a club operating, and I advised
her of this.

She said, “I don’t care, I just want to get out of town. I don’t like
it.”

This particular club clientele may not have been as selective as some
of the other clubs in town, and there could have been many reasons.
I know from her own verbal statements, that she had been requested
to be convivial, which is above and beyond the requirements of an
entertainer. However, she would not sign an affidavit to that effect,
and frequently associations were continued independent of the club that
would make her continuing there awkward to her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether at that time she had a relationship of
some sort with a Dallas police officer?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she mention that as any reason for not wanting to
continue to work?

Mr. PALMER. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information that that was the reason?

Mr. PALMER. I don’t know. No, I haven’t. I gave it no importance. I
assigned no importance to it at all at that time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you give us any suggestions as to what might have
motivated her to leave so abruptly? Has anything come to your attention
that might suggest consideration?

Mr. PALMER. She had frequently wanted to leave prior to that--she
stated this to me--and she couldn’t. As a matter of fact, at one time
she had discontinued exotic dancing entirely for a period of a month or
so, and evidently came back to work at Jack Ruby’s.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why had she wanted to leave?

Mr. PALMER. She said she had a child and she wanted to get into some
other business at that time. This was quite sometime prior to that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. As long as 6 months or a year before?

Mr. PALMER. Six months at least. She had indicated that out of respect
for her association with a member of the Dallas police force, that she
would probably cease dancing, or that she wanted to.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In other words, when she talked with you--I want to see if
I understand this correctly--when she talked with you 6 months or more
before Oswald was shot, she indicated that because at that time she had
a relationship with this Dallas police officer, she thought it would be
best that she get out of the business?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You smile. Why do you smile and say yes? Is there anything
more?

Mr. PALMER. No more than I gained the impression that this was not a
business that she felt would be compatible with his position, and for
no reason other than that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it known to members of the police department that
she was dating this fellow, living with this fellow even before the
President was shot?

Mr. PALMER. It was of such common knowledge to all entertainers,
and his presence in the club with her and after in places where
entertainers usually went at 1 or 2 o’clock to have breakfast, that I
doubt that their association could have escaped the attention of some
of the other members of the force.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information about how friendly Jack Ruby
was with the police officer that she was dating?

Mr. PALMER. Quite friendly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us how you know that?

Mr. PALMER. Well, I saw no outward signs of any friendship other than
that of an acquaintance between the two, but he did introduce me to
him, and on occasion, the three of us were at a table briefly when I
would drop in late just prior to closing time.

His presence was honored, as mine was, without cover charge. And
frequently Jack would buy us a beer or coke or whatever we were having.

But I didn’t feel that there was any animosity. Or let me say, I
was not aware that there was or had been or possibly would be any
animosity. Knowing Jack, I feel that he was perhaps nurturing this
acquaintanceship to strengthen any position that a person in his
business might sooner or later need.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information that this police officer might
have helped Jack Ruby get into the basement of the police department on
Sunday?

Mr. PALMER. No. As a matter of fact, this is the first time that I have
even thought of that. I would not know. I could give you no idea at all
on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Little Lynn have any occasion to talk to you about her
relationship with Jack Ruby after Oswald was shot?

Mr. PALMER. No. As a matter of fact, I didn’t see Little Lynn after
that. Actually, I knew she was employed sporadically there because of
what I assume was slightly neurotic reasons. I didn’t see her for a
period of maybe a week before that happened in the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have some reason to think that she was a mentally
disturbed person?

Mr. PALMER. I was certain of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us why it is you feel that way, and what do
you think her problem was?

I don’t want you to be a psychiatrist, but in lay terms, what was the
difficulty?

Mr. PALMER. Well, she was associated with a young gentleman more nearly
her age who was eager to have her accumulate wealth. What he did to
achieve this, I don’t know. I can only assume.

I believe she thought herself pregnant, or was. I had no proof whether
she was or not. I did see her have convulsions and spasms that I had
seen before and realized that this was more a nervous condition that
often precedes pregnancy, but this seemed to be to me, again, as I say,
a little more of an emotional thing rather than a physiological thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t have any indication that she was taking
narcotics?

Mr. PALMER. I had none. I have none at the present time. By narcotics,
I don’t know what you mean.

Some of the entertainers, the girls have weight problems and often
they are on a, I don’t know what the pill is, it is a black thing that
doctors prescribe. I have seen several eating them, that I know of them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. They are habit forming?

Mr. PALMER. I don’t know. I believe they are. I don’t know what they
are. A friend of mine in a different business is the one that described
them to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Little Lynn’s boy friend or husband or whatever
he is attempting to do for her?

Mr. PALMER. I had that feeling. I had no proof of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Anything else that you think he was attempting to do?

Mr. PALMER. Not that I am aware of, no. I thought that was what it
was, plus having her in a club where he could call as her manager and
probably circulate and pander for her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you happen to know why Tammi True quit working for Jack
Ruby shortly before the President was assassinated?

Mr. PALMER. She quit several times before. Again, Tammi was quite
critical of Jack’s bookkeeping and frequently overstepped her
boundaries as an employee because of her association with Mr. Paul, I
believe, at that time. She was living with him off and on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to visit any of the nightclubs on
November 22 or November 23?

Mr. PALMER. Could you give me the days of the week?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, this would be the Friday night after the President
was assassinated, and the Saturday night.

Mr. PALMER. I would have to look at the records at AGVA. I believe I
did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether you were in Abe’s Colony Club or the
Theatre Lounge on one of those nights?

Mr. PALMER. I probably was. I usually made those clubs as I came
downtown. I don’t recall specifically though.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Specifically, do you have any specific recollection as to
whether those clubs were open on any one of those nights?

Mr. PALMER. Let’s see, President was assassinated on what?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Friday.

Mr. PALMER. Friday. All the clubs were closed on Friday night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Saturday?

Mr. PALMER. There was some--actually, the two clubs, Colony Club and
the Theatre Lounge closed, and I think there was some doubt as to
whether Ruby’s would close, and I had to determine that. I believe Ruby
was closed until the following Monday. I am not certain.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection of being in the Colony Club
or Theatre Lounge on Saturday night?

Mr. PALMER. No, I don’t; I am sorry.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t believe I have any more questions. Is there
anything that you can think of that the Commission ought to know either
about Ruby or about the murder of Oswald, or about the assassination
of the President, that you might want to offer independently of any
questions that I have asked you?

Mr. PALMER. I suppose my other statements are available to you?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. It is customary that we give you these to look at
to sign, but I am afraid that it didn’t get included in the group of
things that I brought with me from Washington, so I don’t have them to
hand to you. I have one short statement that you made on November 26,
but it has simply to do with Buddy King.

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like to have you look at it, but I don’t think it
is germane to what we have talked about today.

Mr. PALMER. I was thinking about my perhaps excitement over the phone
call from Chicago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you want to tell us about that?

Mr. PALMER. Well, if it is not redundant or repetitious.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now this is the call that Wilma Hughes received?

Mr. PALMER. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you tell us about that?

Mr. PALMER. Well, I recognized immediately on television, Jack. Prior
to that, well Wilma called me stating that she had talked to Conrad
Brown who she called Jack, who also is known professionally as Alton
Sharp.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did Wilma call you?

Mr. PALMER. Early Sunday morning. And she said will you be seeing Jack
today. The reason I assumed at the time the she asked me was that she
did not herself frequent the clubs as a representative. I said, “It is
doubtful.”

She said “Jackie (meaning Alton Sharp) said to tell Jack Ruby not to
send a letter, it would do no good now.” And I said, “That is cryptic,
what does it mean?”

And she said. “I don’t know, but be sure and tell Jack today.” With no
particular emphasis on the word today.

I said, “I hadn’t planned on seeing Jack Ruby, but if I do, I would
relay the message.” And then later the murder, and I could not quite
correlate any reason why Chicago was indicating to people in my office,
in my jurisdiction, anything that would pertain to AGVA, so I simply
relayed this, and perhaps became over-concerned with it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you since learned of anything which would indicate
what that telephone call was?

Mr. PALMER. The reason was given to me, but I don’t accept it,
actually. The story was that the pressure he was putting on Jack to
have him conform more closely to AGVA and rules and regulations that
prompted him to talk to Alton Sharp in Chicago about writing a letter
to New York concerning me. Jack had.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Concerning you? Meaning Tom Palmer?

Mr. PALMER. Right. Jack Ruby had also asked me if he could. I said yes.
But I couldn’t understand his sending any pertinent data to Chicago,
which was not a regional office and had no jurisdiction over this area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of friendship did Jack have with Conrad Brown or
Alton Sharp?

Mr. PALMER. Alton was at one time branch manager here just preceding me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack particularly friendly with this man?

Mr. PALMER. Alton Sharp indicated to me that he would bear watching
and require much work to keep him current. And other than that I felt
that Alton Sharp’s friendship was no more than it is with any other
nightclub operator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, you say that you felt that the explanation that was
given to you wasn’t satisfactory. I take it you must have something in
mind as to what really was taking place.

Mr. PALMER. I didn’t know what importance this phone call was at
that time, and of course, now, with time having dulled the image of
it somewhat, I still cannot understand what was of importance, of
such importance that would require a weekend transaction of AGVA
business, which is not common on Sunday. However, we are on duty as
representatives every day of the week, but this request not to send a
letter seemed urgent for some reason when Wilma told me that Alton had
relayed this to her in his conversation to her that morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if Alton Sharp was discharged from his job
about that same time?

Mr. PALMER. Shortly thereafter, I believe. I am not sure
chronologically.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been before?

Mr. PALMER. I couldn’t say. I would have to check with some information
that I have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information that Jack Ruby may have been
attempting to help Alton Sharp in Sharp’s relationship with AGVA?

Mr. PALMER. I would assume; yes. He did try to do that. His feeling was
that if he helped anyone, and as a matter of fact, he helped me, or he
thought he had, on several occasions, in any relationship with AGVA, I
am sure he felt that this was beneficial to his own dealings with AGVA.
And when I say he helped me, he spoke laudatory of me in the presence
of officials from New York. Anyway, that was it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t believe I have any other questions then.

Mr. PALMER. Fine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to thank you very much for taking your time to come
here today. You have been very helpful to us today.

Mr. PALMER. Bye.



TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH WELDON JOHNSON, JR.

The testimony of Joseph Weldon Johnson, Jr. was taken at 5 p.m., on
July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney. 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets. Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W.
Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.


Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself again. I am Burt Griffin, and I am
a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission
on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Before we ask anybody to testify, we give you a preliminary spiel on
what this hearing is all about.

I will start out by telling you that the Commission was set up pursuant
to an Executive order of President Johnson and the joint resolution of
Congress, and we have been directed to investigate into and evaluate
and report back to President Johnson on all the facts that we can find
that bear upon the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.

We have asked you to come here today particularly because of your past
employment with Jack Ruby’s sister, Eva Grant.

Now I have been directed under the rules and regulations that have been
promulgated by the Commission, to take your testimony, and under these
rules and regulations, you are entitled to receive a 3-day written
notice to come here to testify.

The first thing I will ask you is when did you receive a letter from
us, if you did?

Mr. JOHNSON. When did I receive the letter?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. JOHNSON. Let’s see. This date here, it is July 19.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So you received it in plenty of time, and we can go ahead
and take your testimony. Do you have any questions that you want to ask
me about this before we start?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, not especially, because I talked with the FBI
several times before, and I told them everything I knew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is good. We want to now get it in the testimony
formally. Let me ask you to raise your right hand and I will administer
the oath to you.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give here
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?

Mr. JOHNSON. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you give the reporter your full name, please?

Mr. JOHNSON. My name is Joseph Weldon Johnson, Jr.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell the middle name?

Mr. JOHNSON. W-e-l-d-o-n.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now?

Mr. JOHNSON. 12130 Willowdell Drive, Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mr. JOHNSON. July 16, 1926.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your regular occupation?

Mr. JOHNSON. I am a musician; bandleader.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been a bandleader?

Mr. JOHNSON. Since, well, I have been a professional bandleader since
1950.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to work for Jack Ruby?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you work for him?

Mr. JOHNSON. Vegas Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you start working for him?

Mr. JOHNSON. I don’t remember the exact month. I believe it was March
1956--1957, that is when it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you work continuously for him from that time on?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many people were in your band?

Mr. JOHNSON. Five, including myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What kind of music did you provide?

Mr. JOHNSON. Variety of music. We have a very--well, I would say we
played progressive jazz, rock and roll, and ballads.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now you eventually left Ruby’s employment, didn’t you?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. JOHNSON. Second of November of last year.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say that date with a great deal of conviction. Is that
a date you are sure of?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to leave Ruby?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I just wanted to change, just wanted to change
places. I had been there so long, and a fellow came and talked to me
about playing in another club, and I just decided I felt the change
would be good for my group and myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you take your whole group with you?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any of the members of the band who stayed on
with Ruby?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, the pianoplayer, Leonard Wood, stayed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did that happen?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, he felt that he could continue to stay there and
keep the place going. I had a pretty good following there--but I
understand it didn’t work out too well.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s reaction to your leaving the Vegas Club?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, actually, Jack hadn’t been at the Vegas Club. He was
downtown here, you know, and, well, he was kind of hurt. He didn’t like
it too well, but I had no contract at the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he feel that your band had been stolen from him?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, I don’t think so, because this was my decision.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk to you about his attitude toward your
leaving?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say to you that you recall?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, he wanted to know if I was leaving him for good, and
if there would be a possibility, if anything else would come up in the
future, would I be interested in coming back with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you tell him?

Mr. JOHNSON. I told him if it would be to the benefit of my group, I
would be glad to, but I had a family to support and further, I have to
look out for things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you able to get more money at this new club?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; more consideration also.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the name of the club?

Mr. JOHNSON. Castaway Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you playing there now?

Mr. JOHNSON. I am at Louann’s now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You said more consideration.

Mr. JOHNSON. I had a chance to use some of my ideas. They more or less
had things fixed where I couldn’t use my imagination, how I wanted to
sell and so forth publicitywise, and I got better publicity and so
forth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How was it that you were restricted at the Vegas Club?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, more or less they won’t do anything to make the club
look decent, where I would invite people out that I felt were special
guests, and I just felt like this other club was better equipped, but
I wouldn’t mind inviting anyone out there. And I had been at the Vegas
Club, and he continued to say, “We are going to do this,” and they
never would get around to it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things?

Mr. JOHNSON. I mean like fixing up the club and making it look decent.
In fact, it looked the same way it did when I first moved there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much of your dealings were with Jack Ruby, and how
much of them were with his sister, Eva Grant?

Mr. JOHNSON. Let’s see; I believe since 1959, all of my dealings were
with his sister and not with him. Before then, it was all with him,
because she wasn’t in town. She came in from, I don’t know, California,
I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you know that his sister was operated on in
November?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did that operation take place while you were still working
for her?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby get in any fights while you worked
for him?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us about some of those?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, it was just about some of the people that would come
to the club that would get in trouble, and he just, you know, wouldn’t
hardly stand for that in his club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know George Senator?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Ralph Paul?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Tammi True?

Mr. JOHNSON. Not personally, but I mean I had worked on shows with
them. They used to have shows at the Vegas Club, and she had worked
some of the shows over there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jack put on a striptease show at the Vegas Club?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How often would he have those shows?

Mr. JOHNSON. They used to have them every Friday night, but some time
last year, maybe around August or something like that, something
happened that they discontinued them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did he start having the striptease shows?

Mr. JOHNSON. I don’t remember, but several years ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have striptease shows at the Vegas Club before he
opened the Carousel Club?

Mr. JOHNSON. I don’t think so. I don’t remember for sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know another of his striptease dancers, Kathy Kay?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; I have heard the name. It is familiar; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a policeman named Harry Olsen?

Mr. JOHNSON. Not by name. I don’t remember that name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know Ruby’s dancer, Little Lynn?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; that name doesn’t register.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jack Ruby at all on November 22 or 23, the
Friday that the President was shot, and the Saturday afterward?

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any of his friends or employees over that
weekend?

Mr. JOHNSON. Not that I recall; nobody that would be close to him, I
would say. Maybe some of his friends, but offhand, I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But not Ralph Paul or George Senator or Tammi True?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; I don’t remember seeing any of those.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby attempt to promote any records for you?

Mr. JOHNSON. He had talked about it. He never did promote any records
for me. He talked about it, what he could do, but he never did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why did it never get beyond the talking stage?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, because he never did do anything about it. He just
talked about it, and he said that was from some friends he knew over
the country that he felt would do a favor for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have a master of ceremonies at the Vegas Club?

Mr. JOHNSON. You mean when we had shows, or nightly?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Nightly.

Mr. JOHNSON. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When he had shows?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have shows every Saturday night?

Mr. JOHNSON. No; the shows were Friday night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have them every Friday night?

Mr. JOHNSON. For a while; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a professional master of ceremonies, or did he
do his own master of ceremonies?

Mr. JOHNSON. Occasionally he would, and sometimes he would have others.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever aware of any restrictions that Jack put on
as to the kind of jokes that the master of ceremonies could tell?

Mr. JOHNSON. You mean did he limit them?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that you know of?

Mr. JOHNSON. I am sure--well, they never got, you know, where the
average person wouldn’t accept them, but sometimes they got a little
rough, because they were all adults and I guess they felt they could go
OK.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you find Jack Ruby an easy man or difficult man to
work for?

Mr. JOHNSON. Well, for the average person, I don’t guess too many
people could have worked for him, but I knew personally that Jack liked
me and his sister liked me. But we would get into arguments, but it
wouldn’t last long, and they were very good to me, as far as that is
concerned.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack show you kindnesses?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; he showed everyone kindness. As far as I am
concerned, he was a very fine friend. He was a hot-tempered fellow.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of kindnesses?

Mr. JOHNSON. Oh, if I ever needed any good word or something or someone
he knew, he would never mind, he liked me, I know, personally. He liked
me, but he was just, I say, high-tempered person. And you might run
into him one time and he might be one way, and the next time he might
be upset, but he would never leave until he would shake your hand if
you had had an argument with him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean on a nightly basis if you had had an argument
that night, you would still walk out having shaken hands on that? Is
that what you mean?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or did you mean that if you had an argument that resulted
in termination of employment you would still shake hands with him and
go away?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That also?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But he was the kind of fellow who quickly made up after he
had an argument with you?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he make up? Did he apologize for his own conduct?

Mr. JOHNSON. Yes; he would.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of any specific episode that you had with
him?

Mr. JOHNSON. I had so many, I don’t remember. For instance, maybe
sometimes his sister would get angry with me, and it might be a night
that I should be paid and she wouldn’t pay me. Well, he wouldn’t take
sides with her. He would get the money from somewhere and pay me, even
if he had to bring it to my house, and he would apologize for her. Or
even if anything should occur with him, he would apologize.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there anything else that you can think of that you
would want to tell us that might shed some light on Jack Ruby on why he
committed the crime that he committed.

Mr. JOHNSON. I haven’t the slightest idea, because the only time that I
have known Jack--I have known him to shoot in the club when there was
some trouble--shoot at the ceiling. We would have heated arguments, but
never at any time where he put a pistol on me. I wasn’t afraid to argue
with him, because I didn’t think he was that kind of a person.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The time that he shot the pistol off in the club, what was
he doing it for?

Mr. JOHNSON. They maybe were having a fight in the club, and to scare
them he would shoot at the ceiling. I can’t think of anything other
than what I have told you. Other than, as far as I am concerned, he was
all right.

After leaving, he wasn’t angry with me, and he didn’t appear to be
angry with me. We had a heart-to-heart talk, and I just explained to
him I thought it would be better for me. I was getting in a rut at the
club, and I just wanted to change. We had no angry words or anything.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much for coming here and waiting as you had
to a bit longer than we expected.

Mr. JOHNSON. Like I say, even if it meant to give up a job, I wanted to
do whatever I could.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This has been helpful to us because we are trying to get
an insight from the experiences other people had with him, and you
have helped us today to fill in some gaps that we didn’t have, and I
appreciate that very much.

Mr. JOHNSON. I certainly hope I have been some help. Thank you very
much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Bye, bye.



TESTIMONY OF EDWARD J. PULLMAN

The testimony of Edward J. Pullman was taken at 7:05 p.m., on July 24,
1964; in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.


Mr. GRIFFIN. I am Burt Griffin, and a member of the general counsel’s
staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President
Kennedy. We have a few preliminaries that we always go through to
acquaint you with what we are trying to do here. I might state to you
at the outset that the President’s Commission was established pursuant
to an Executive order by President Johnson and a joint resolution of
Congress and under that set of official acts the Commission has been
directed to investigate into and evaluate and report back to President
Johnson all the facts relating to the assassination of President
Kennedy and Lee Harvey Oswald. We have asked you to come here today
in particular because you have been friendly over the years with Jack
Ruby and we are hopeful that you can perhaps provide us with some
information and insight into Jack Ruby that we wouldn’t have had
otherwise. Under the rules promulgated by the Commission, I have been
directed specifically to take your deposition. I might tell you that
the rules of the Commission provide that you are entitled to receive 3
days’ written notice before being obliged to testify, and I now ask you
at the outset if you received a letter from the Commission and when it
was that you did receive it?

Mr. PULLMAN. I received the letter last Sunday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then, the 3 days’ provision is complied with. There is
another formal question that I will simply ask you and that is if you
have any questions about the nature of what will take place in the next
half hour or so?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, I just wanted to get a little idea of what type of
information you are looking for--just what you are concerned with?

Mr. GRIFFIN. In calling you, we are particularly interested in any
information that you might have about the activities of Jack Ruby
on November 22, 1963, and November 23 and 24, including various
other people that we know who were in contact with him and also some
background information of Jack Ruby in terms of the various enterprises
of his in at least one or two of which I understand you were associated
in with him.

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; that’s right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And also, perhaps, some general insights to the kind of
person Mr. Ruby was.

Mr. PULLMAN. How did you happen to get my name--I know I spoke to the
FBI at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; you were interviewed by the FBI, and other people
that we have talked to have indicated that you, perhaps more so than
any others, knew Jack pretty well?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, I knew him pretty well; he used to be at my house
occasionally and I had an insight to his personal character.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then, let me ask you at this point if you will raise your
right hand and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you
are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but
the truth, so help you God?

Mr. PULLMAN. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your full name for the record, please?

Mr. PULLMAN. Edward J. Pullman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Pullman?

Mr. PULLMAN. 5454 Anita.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mr. PULLMAN. July 12, 1928--no; that’s July 28, 1912.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What is your occupation?

Mr. PULLMAN. I am a furniture designer and consultant--games, ideas,
promotions--anything for the public; creative ideas for games and so
forth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in that business?

Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, about 30 years.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any formal training in that?

Mr. PULLMAN. No; I just learned it all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you self-employed?

Mr. PULLMAN. I am working for a company right now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And whom do you work for?

Mr. PULLMAN. I’m working for Freed Furniture Co.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you working for them at the time I have mentioned?

Mr. PULLMAN. No; I just started with them. I was just working for
myself--I have just started with them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a family?

Mr. PULLMAN. My wife and daughter and children.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When, approximately, did you first meet Jack Ruby?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, I met Jack--oh, I’d say several years ago, but I
never had any real contact with him, but I had heard a lot about Jack,
but I never had any contact with him until 1963, and that was in the
summer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did Jack happen to make contact with you at that time?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, my wife was the one that I got in contact with him
on, because she went to help in the night club. She used to be the
manager of the Theatre Lounge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Your wife was the manager of the Theatre Lounge?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did she meet Jack as a result of that?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, no; she had left the Theatre Lounge and she wanted
to get something to do and she was told that Jack was looking for
someone to help him and she was up there and he got her started
working. She actually wasn’t working in a true sense of the word
because he was never sure of what he wanted. What she could do for
him--he couldn’t put anything right down on the line and say, “Yes; I
want you to do this or that.” He was very erratic. Every night he ran
the place on a different basis.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did she start to work for him?

Mr. PULLMAN. I think it was--I’m not sure, but I believe it was in July.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In 1953?

Mr. PULLMAN. 1963.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how long did she continue to work for him?

Mr. PULLMAN. I think--about 6 or 8 weeks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how did she happen to leave?

Mr. PULLMAN. She didn’t happen to leave--it was just too confusing--the
confusion was constant and she couldn’t do things the way they should
be run because she had a pretty good idea of how to run a club and she
would try to help him and it seemed like he didn’t want to accept any
help as far as his operations were concerned and he wanted to do it all
himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, what actually, did she wind up doing for him?

Mr. PULLMAN. Just being a general hostess and seating people and
trying to be of service to whoever came in--that was all; and I used
to come up there evenings and spend a couple of hours and we got real
close--real friendly. And I watched the way he operated and I knew his
personality very quickly--he was very hot tempered and I was there
one night when he personally threw someone out because he had said
something derogatory about Kennedy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. PULLMAN. It was during the time my wife worked there and I also
found in talking to him that he couldn’t take anybody who was going to
talk against Kennedy or the administration or the Government. Later I
learned from other people that he felt the same way about Roosevelt.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On this one instance, what specifically was said on the
occasion when he threw somebody out?

Mr. PULLMAN. It was about--the MC was making some remark about Barry
Goldwater and some other things like that, and someone made some
derogatory remarks about Kennedy--I don’t remember the exact words--and
he didn’t like what he said about Kennedy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the person use profanity?

Mr. PULLMAN. No profanity--just the fact that he didn’t have
respect--he didn’t respect the President. That was one of the
incidents. Then, there was an incident pretty close to the time--it was
in November and we had a Texas Product Show and, of course, I hadn’t
seen him in some time up until that particular time and he called
me--he had come up with this twistboard and I was showing a bunch of
inventions that I had at this Texas Product Show that I had on display
there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where was the Texas Product Show set up?

Mr. PULLMAN. At the Exhibit Hall out on Stemmons Expressway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that out at the Trade Mart?

Mr. PULLMAN. No; but it’s pretty close--about a block up from the Trade
Mart.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What month was this?

Mr. PULLMAN. That was in November--the early part of November--I think
it was the first week in November, and that’s when he contacted me.
It seemed very coincidental--I hadn’t heard from him in months and he
called me and he told me he had this twistboard and he needed some idea
as to how to merchandise it or what to do with it, and he was always
running into various things. He had this English razor blade that he
was even trying to sell some of them in his club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Wilkenson blades?

Mr. PULLMAN. Wilkenson blades; and when he called me about the
twistboard, I had just been ready to go in to show him all my new
ideas--products--at the show, and he thought it might be a good idea to
tie the two together and that’s how I got closely associated with him
for a week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he do with his twistboard at the Texas Product
Show?

Mr. PULLMAN. I showed it in my space and he would even come down
and demonstrate it himself and sell it. I asked him to send some
of the girls down and demonstrate it--this twistboard that he had
there--exotic dancers down there and he did bring some of them down.
As a matter of fact, you will find photographic records of it from
the Dallas Times Herald--they took a picture, and he may be in some
of those pictures with one of the girls on the twistboard, and I also
mentioned the fact that pictures were taken by the Dallas Times Herald
newspaper, I believe, and they were actually publicity shots that were
taken. Now, he used to come in with this friend, George Senator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did the show run?

Mr. PULLMAN. It ran for a week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what week did it run?

Mr. PULLMAN. I believe it was from November 1st through the 7th.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how often did Jack come?

Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, he tried to get down there almost every night if he
could, but he did come down one night; he made a tour of the place
and he ran across the H. L. Hunt display, and during that time they
were giving out a shopping bag with food and a lot of this Lifeline
literature that they inserted into the bags and I heard somebody
calling my name--I was away up towards the middle of the display and I
heard somebody call my name and it was Jack way down below calling me
and he was walking at a very fast clip and he had a bunch of papers in
his hand and he comes up to me breathless with Senator trailing behind
him and showing me all this Lifeline material, and I couldn’t stop to
read it because there were people all around the place, and he said,
“I’m going to send this stuff to Kennedy--I want to send this stuff to
Kennedy.” He said, “Nobody has any right to talk like this about our
Government.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Senator was present at the time?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; George Senator was there. He got real excited and I
said, “Well, you just know about it now, but Lifeline has been out for
some time,” and that’s what he does and that’s how he gets his material
around. He said, “I’m going to do something about this, I’m going to
see that this is taken up in Washington,” and that was the incident
that I recall. I think I even mentioned that to the FBI.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall what this literature was; do you recall any
of the specific pieces of literature?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, I know it was anti-administration, anti-Government
type of literature that he has always been giving out. I don’t know if
you have ever listened to his Lifeline program on the radio or not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of literature was this--was there a radio script
or pamphlets?

Mr. PULLMAN. Pamphlets--just pamphlets and sheets talking about the
Government. I didn’t stop to read them, but I know about them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you actually look at these sheets?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; I looked at the sheets.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any advertising on it?

Mr. PULLMAN. No; you see, actually, I don’t know whether this ought
to be in the record--that was one of the reasons, I understand, that
he wasn’t allowed to have his display at the New York Fair because he
gives out this type of literature, and they broke his lease on that
basis.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember the names of any of the pamphlets that
were put out?

Mr. PULLMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recall them if some were suggested to you?

Mr. PULLMAN. No; I couldn’t say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did Jack talk about this literature?

Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, it was just a few minutes and then took off. He was
all excited and red faced, livid, and that’s the way he got--hot and
cold like that and I have seen that so many times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he complain to anybody at the H. L. Hunt booth?

Mr. PULLMAN. No, there was no one there--there was nobody there at the
time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who else was present besides you and George Senator?

Mr. PULLMAN. That’s all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever sell any twistboards for Jack?

Mr. PULLMAN. I sold some, I’m sure, and he sold most of them. Any time
he came down there, he sold some.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many did you sell?

Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, I sold about a dozen--as a matter of fact, he didn’t
know how to go about handling the thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In what way?

Mr. PULLMAN. I suggested to him to try to set up a mail order program
on them, and that’s where he got that box number.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That’s where he got what?

Mr. PULLMAN. That’s where he got that box number that they are all
talking about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You suggested it?

Mr. PULLMAN. That he try to sell them mail order, you see, and he asked
me about using the name of Earl, Earl Products before we went into the
show, because I wanted to have some sort of sign at the display by who
was showing the twistboards, so we discussed that at first and he said,
“Earl Products,” and he didn’t have an address except his home address
and I suggested he should use his name and then get a box number and do
a mail order business that way and get started.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was your promotion at the Texas Product Show a mail-order
type of promotion?

Mr. PULLMAN. No, no; just an exhibit. It was just an exhibit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But, in there in that exhibit was there a reference to
mail orders?

Mr. PULLMAN. No, it was just an exhibit of ideas--an exhibit of all new
kinds of new inventions, and this was a new idea that come up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In the advertising you did for it at the Texas Product
Show, was there a reference made to a post office box number?

Mr. PULLMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And, the post office box did not come up until after the
Texas Product Show was over?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, it was--I don’t recall whether it was after
or before. He was trying to figure out how to handle the sale of
them--whether he would go direct to the stores and sell them because
some of the stores already had some similar ones, and that’s why, I
believe, he decided to go on a mail order.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How was he going to promote it through the mail--through
somebody’s catalog or through direct mail solicitation?

Mr. PULLMAN. Through direct; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if he made any efforts to do it?

Mr. PULLMAN. I don’t know. I didn’t know anything about that afterward.
You see, I hadn’t seen him. After the show closed he came in and picked
up his things and that was the last time I actually saw him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever tell you about plans for manufacturing the
twistboard himself?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that.

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, it was just when he was trying to get some idea from
me since I was a furniture man, or was, because the twistboard has some
kind of a swivel device in there that we use in swivel chairs, and he
wanted to get some ideas about it, whether it would be better off for
him to manufacture them or let someone else make them and contract
them, but he never went any further than that with me. He wanted my
ideas about actually making it, fabricating the whole thing, and buying
and getting the parts and assembling it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you suggest to him?

Mr. PULLMAN. I just would let them stay where they are--with the people
that were making them, really running them, and see how they go over
first, and then eventually go on his own.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you make that suggestion before the Texas Products
Show, during, or after?

Mr. PULLMAN. It was during the show. You see, I didn’t know about
this--I hadn’t seen him up until the Texas Product Show.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then, this would have been about late October that you
first learned about it, or were you actually set up at the show?

Mr. PULLMAN. No, at the show--this all happened within the week of the
show.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, the first day that you opened out there at the Texas
Product Show, you didn’t have the twistboards?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; he already had them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you didn’t have them out there?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh, you had them for the first full day?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes, he called me just before the show opened, about a day
before the show opened, and that following night he brought them over.
As a matter of fact, we tried to get them there at the time because
they were going to have a big to-do with the opening--the publicity and
all--for the exhibits, which come about anyway, but that was one of the
things I recall. I know it was on the same day--he came across with
them on the same day--he brought over about three dozen, and that’s all
he had, and we sold about a dozen and I paid him whatever I got for
them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was he charging for each one?

Mr. PULLMAN. $2.95.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of commission did he plan to provide for the
distributor?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, he didn’t know for sure what he was going to pay--he
had no idea--40 percent off or 50 percent off or, if he didn’t have a
distributor, he was going to be the distributor. He would have hired
salesmen.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know if he made any efforts to inquire into
producing the thing himself?

Mr. PULLMAN. No, but as far as that, that’s about all I know that was
closest to the time of the actual happening. Prior to that I knew him
just while my wife had worked there those few weeks and I realized
that he was a very erratic person and not a very easy person to talk
to, to know, also the fact that he became upset very easily and cooled
off just as quickly, but I have seen him just haul off and lambast or
hit someone without thinking twice, because--his club was run very
well--considering.

I mean, he tried to keep it clean. He didn’t try to let any rowdiness
come into it like some of the other places of that type, so that he was
kind of proud of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any of his employees?

Mr. PULLMAN. Just as manager--Andrew.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Andrew Armstrong?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Tammi True?

Mr. PULLMAN. I knew of the girls.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Kathy Kay?

Mr. PULLMAN. Wait just a minute; was Tammi True the one he brought--the
name rings a bell--I think he brought her out to the product show to
demonstrate--she demonstrated the board. They got her picture.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Kathy Kay?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; I knew most of the girls that were there. We
knew--what’s her name--that New Orleans girl?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Jada?

Mr. PULLMAN. Jada or something like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you at the night club?

Mr. PULLMAN. I was there at the time when she was brought in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you there when Jack turned out the lights on her?

Mr. PULLMAN. He never turned the lights out on her.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At least not in your presence?

Mr. PULLMAN. No; he wouldn’t never do that. He would give her an awful
lot of hell, he would almost hit her--I’ll tell you that, but he
wouldn’t turn the lights out.

Are you talking about on stage?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; if she got a little bit too risque, he would turn the
lights out on her. He was very much concerned about the law.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he argue with her about it?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, she was just getting too raw--that was most of the
argument, and as a matter of fact, he called the vice squad the first
night she was there and he wanted them to see what she was doing--he
wanted to know he was not doing wrong.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you present there then?

Mr. PULLMAN. I was present that night and I stood right with the head
man on the vice squad and watched the show, because Jack kind of leaned
on me because I acted as more of a host for him at the door, and I knew
I saw all of these cops in there most of the time and they were all
very nice--they were all served coffee--they were very nice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Harry Olsen, Officer Olsen?

Mr. PULLMAN. I didn’t know too many of them by name, but I knew they
were law men.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know the fellow that Kathy Kay was dating, the
officer she was dating?

Mr. PULLMAN. Was that Kathy Kay or Kathy King?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Kathy Kay.

Mr. PULLMAN. A blonde?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t really know.

Mr. PULLMAN. An English girl?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, she’s English.

Mr. PULLMAN. And she was going with an officer?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know him?

Mr. PULLMAN. She was engaged to him; yes, I had seen him up there. He
used to come up there every night to take her home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of relationship did Jack have with this officer?

Mr. PULLMAN. Very nice--very well--he never had any trouble with him.
He got along very well then with the officers. They would come up there
and he had coffee. He was proud of the fact that he was able to have
them in there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where you were when you learned that
President Kennedy had been shot?

Mr. PULLMAN. Where I was?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. PULLMAN. I was in bed. I had just gotten up and turned the TV on
and I saw Jack shooting Oswald as the picture came on, that’s all I saw.

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I asked you--when President Kennedy was shot, where
were you?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, we were watching at home--my wife and myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to go out of your house at that time
at all?

Mr. PULLMAN. I didn’t go out for 3 days--I didn’t budge out of the
house for 3 days. I was very much shook up over it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was the last time you saw Jack Ruby before the
President was shot?

Mr. PULLMAN. That was at the Texas Product Show, was the last time I
saw him, the first week in November.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say he had been over to your house?

Mr. PULLMAN. He was over a few times--it was on the twistboard that he
came over the first--well, that was just the last--when I saw him, but
he would come over just to talk to my wife and get some ideas and what
to do about the club, but he would never do it, no matter what you told
him. He wouldn’t do anything, but he was looking for friends--he was
looking for friends. He would come in on a Sunday with sweetrolls and
spend an hour or two, with his dogs, and I never saw anybody so crazy
about animals. I mean, his own dogs, but as a whole, I think that my
own honest opinion of the man--the man has been insane. He was psycho.
I’m not talking about at the time--I’m talking before--I mean, he was
not right, because when you talked to him, you think he is listening
and you would look up and he would say, “I wasn’t listening, what were
you saying?” He was off somewhere--he would hear what he wanted to
hear, unless you asked him a question to get a direct answer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, let’s go back to the H. L. Hunt literature--was H. L.
Hunt distributing food as well as literature?

Mr. PULLMAN. They were giving away samples and they gave away shopping
bags and this stuff was already stuffed into the bags.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, when you would pick up the literature----

Mr. PULLMAN. It was in there already. That’s what Jack told me when
he come by, he said, “Look what I found in this bag.” He was looking
to see what was in there, and I immediately recognized that Life Line
material.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to be familiar with Life Line?

Mr. PULLMAN. Just by accidentally listening on the radio at home. They
had it on the radio around 6 or 7 o’clock on Saturday and we were
listening to--what is the name of that program--you don’t know that
local radio program that’s on every Saturday night?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it on the same station that Life Line is on?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it a music program?

Mr. PULLMAN. No, it’s sort of a comment thing.

The REPORTER. Is it “comment”?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes, comment, I believe that is the name of it. It is
an interview program that comes on right in there somewhere and it’s
news and goes on all the time, but this comes in there somewhere, and
I never want to hear it, but when you do hear it, you sort of get
interested in listening to find out what they are saying.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get the impression that Jack had read this
literature?

Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, he must have read some of it to get so excited. He
must have, and I said, “I’m sure that Kennedy knows all about this, and
Washington knows all about this.”

He said, “Maybe they don’t.” He said, “I’m going to send it in.” And I
said, “Well, you do what you want.” And that’s the last I heard about
it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you think that it was unusual for Jack to be sensitive
to that wording?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, I was a little bit surprised that he would take the
initiative that he did, never thinking that he thought like that. I
didn’t think he had that much intellect.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever campaign for anybody, has he ever been
interested in any sort of politics?

Mr. PULLMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know anything about any literature that was found
in his possession endorsing the conservative Democratic slate; did he
ever tell you he was campaigning for anybody?

Mr. PULLMAN. No, he never discussed politics. The only thing he talked
with me about was when he was working for the union back in Chicago
days and how he lost his finger in a fight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he tell you he lost his finger?

Mr. PULLMAN. That it was shot off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear it was bitten off?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes, I did hear about that too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack tell you--that it was shot off?

Mr. PULLMAN. Shot off.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you hear about it being bitten off?

Mr. PULLMAN. Then I heard later--later on somebody made the remark that
it was actually bitten off in a fight and then I didn’t know what to
believe, and knowing the type and coming from the East, I am originally
from New York and I have known lots of fellows like that--there are a
lot of people who were involved with unions and who were always in that
element.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any other things that Jack ever mentioned to
you that he was sensitive about?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes, he didn’t like any vulgarity in his place. That was
another surprise to me. Of course, he always bragged that he was a very
rough fellow when he had the Silver Spur place on Ervay, I believe it
was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know him then?

Mr. PULLMAN. No, but he would brag about the fact that he was so rough
people would walk on the other side of the street because they were so
afraid of him at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, from the time your wife started to work for him until
you last saw him at the Texas Product Show, about how much time would
you say you spent with him?

Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, practically almost every evening around the club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. For what period of time?

Mr. PULLMAN. I think it was about 2 months--I just can’t remember
exactly--how long it was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long would that be each evening, would you be there
the entire evening?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes, I would spend the whole evening down there and he
trusted everyone. I tried to show him a lot of mistakes that were
going on there but he didn’t care. He just didn’t care. Everyone had
their finger in his till. Everybody went to the cash register, which
was a very unusual thing, knowing what was going on in the other
clubs--everything was accounted for every night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. By that, do you mean people were taking out money for
their own use or something that they used it for down there, or did
anybody and everybody have access to the cash register?

Mr. PULLMAN. They all had access, and he was always short every
night--he was short, and that was another reason why my wife didn’t
want to stay, and I didn’t think she should stay, because of all that
going on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have his waitresses on a salary?

Mr. PULLMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he pay them?

Mr. PULLMAN. They worked on tips--they worked on tips--that’s how it
was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How much money could those girls make in a night?

Mr. PULLMAN. I don’t know--that varied--I never could tell what that
was--that varied.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever tell you about his plans to open a new
nightclub.

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes, he has had plans for other places--sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What specifically did he tell you about that?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, he had one particular location that he kept talking
about, and he wanted to open a real high class place and as a matter of
fact he offered me the proposition to take it over, manage it and host
it, and my wife didn’t want any part of it, knowing the type of person
he was, and I didn’t want to be involved with anything like that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever engaged in any other business with him
besides the twistboard?

Mr. PULLMAN. That was the only thing--that’s all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were never involved in the sale of any vitamin pills
or any other products with him?

Mr. PULLMAN. No; the only reason I thought that the twistboard had
merit was because it was a new idea and it fitted in with the new
products show, and I discussed it with the promoters of the show before
I even took it in and they thought it wouldn’t hurt to put it in there
at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you encourage Jack in the idea that that might be a
profitable venture?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; I did, because I thought possibilities, but he had to
know how to go about doing it. He had no market set up for it, but I
felt we may find out what appeal it really had, and which would be the
best way to sell it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was his response to the appeal that was demonstrated
at the Texas Products Show?

Mr. PULLMAN. Well, he learned one thing--that you have to demonstrate
it to sell it. If it was just lying on a counter, you couldn’t sell
them. You could probably sell it mail order, where they don’t see
it--you just describe it like any other mail-order product, but to
really sell it, you have to see it. Every time it was demonstrated,
it was sold, and when he would come down, he put on a real pitch with
it too and he could sell it. I didn’t bother selling them--I was just
showing them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack get on it and demonstrate it himself?

Mr. PULLMAN. Yes; he got on it and demonstrated it. Took his jacket
off and would stand there and he would be having a ball and eventually
he would sell two or three of them to the crowd standing around seeing
him standing on the board there, you know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would he have any music or anything to twist with?

Mr. PULLMAN. No; he would just talk and twist and show it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was sort of like a sideshow barker?

Mr. PULLMAN. That’s right--well, he didn’t bark--he just explained
what was happening--all the muscles were working and how it tightened
up their stomach muscles. I came out with one formal effort. I got one
at home and I gave it away--a couple of friends wanted one and the
grandkids got them. So, that one thing, I believe I can honestly say
that down deep he was good natured--a good-natured guy, but he was
always just trying to prove something; I don’t know what, but he was
trying to prove something all the time--that he belonged.

This is another thing I recall--he would tell the MC what jokes to
tell, what stories he should work on, and he would promote them,
because he ran the lights and all from the board and prompted them in
their stories. He would naturally talk loud enough so everybody would
turn around and see who was talking, you see, to get the attention to
himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did the MC react?

Mr. PULLMAN. Oh, he was fine--this was Wally Weston--he didn’t mind.
Have you ever talked to Wally?

Mr. GRIFFIN. No; I haven’t.

Mr. PULLMAN. He could give you an awful lot of testimony on Jack’s
background. He was with Jack for over 2 years and he helped make that
club. Wally Weston was formerly with Abe Weinstein’s Colony Club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I hand you what I have marked for the purposes of
identification as Edward J. Pullman’s deposition, July 24, 1964,
Exhibit No. 1. This document consists of two pages that are numbered at
the bottom, consecutively numbers 208 and 209, and it purports to be a
copy of an interview report that FBI Agent Jack K. Peden prepared after
talking with you on December 13, 1963. I would like you to read it over
and tell us if the report that you have there accurately reflects what
you said to him on December 13.

Mr. PULLMAN. It’s practically as near as possible the same thing I said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any corrections to make in that, do you?

Mr. PULLMAN. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, if that is satisfactory, let me ask you to sign
your name to it on the first page and then initial the second page up
near the top.

Mr. PULLMAN. You mean right around here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. PULLMAN (signed and initialed instrument referred to). That’s where
you wanted my initials?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes; that’s all right. Thank you very much for coming up.
I have no more questions.

Mr. PULLMAN. I just hope that I was of some help to you anyway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think you have been, and we appreciate it very much, you
taking out this time to come up.

Mr. PULLMAN. I didn’t mind doing that. My grandkids will have a nice
letter there. That’s something they will have--a memento from getting a
letter from Washington.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, thank you very much.

Mr. PULLMAN. All right.



TESTIMONY OF HERBERT B. KRAVITZ

The testimony of Herbert B. Kravitz was taken at 7:45 p.m., on July
24th, 3964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office
Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W.
Griffin, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.


Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Kravitz, my name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of
the general counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the
Assassination of President Kennedy. We have a few preliminary matters
that we always go through with the witnesses to explain to them a
little bit about the Commission and what we are doing. The Commission
was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson and a
joint resolution of Congress. Under that Executive order and the joint
resolution, the Commission has been directed to investigate into and
evaluate and report back to President Johnson upon all the facts that
relate to the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee
Harvey Oswald. We have asked you to come here tonight in particular
because you have been acquainted with Jack Ruby, and particularly
because you saw him shortly before President Kennedy was assassinated.

Now, the Commission has a set of rules and regulations which are
promulgated and under those rules and regulations I have been
specifically designated to take your testimony. There is a provision
in the rules that a witness is entitled to have 3 days’ written notice
before he appears before the Commission and I will ask you at this
point if you have received a letter from us and when you received it?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Yes; I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it 3 days ago or more?

Mr. KRAVITZ. I’ll tell you in this case that I have just moved
recently, and the letter was lost in the mail and I just got the letter
yesterday, but I was notified by telephone, which I think was more than
3 days ago.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you have no objection to going forward at this point?

Mr. KRAVITZ. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any particular questions you want to ask
before I start to question you?

Mr. KRAVITZ. No; none whatsoever.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. If you would raise your right hand and be
sworn. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give
will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help
you God?

Mr. KRAVITZ. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state your name for the record?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Herbert B. Kravitz.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you spell your last name?

Mr. KRAVITZ. K-r-a-v-i-t-z [spelling].

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now?

Mr. KRAVITZ. In Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whereabouts in Dallas?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Bachman Boulevard; 2631.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mr. KRAVITZ. On March 12, 1938.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And are you employed?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Self-employed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you do?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Publishing business; I am with 20th Century Publishers,
Inc.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of publication do you have?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Well, our first book will be out the end of August. It’s a
fairly new enterprise--it’s approximately 4 months old.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do before that?

Mr. KRAVITZ. I was on the road with a clothing outfit and traveled part
of the country. That’s how I first got to Dallas.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You know Jack Ruby, don’t you?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first happen to meet him?

Mr. KRAVITZ. I was with an entertainer friend of mine--I really can’t
give you specific dates, but the entertainer was a comedian, Fred
Barber, [spelling] B-a-r-b-e-r.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That’s Barber?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Yes; and Fred and I were in a Chinese
restaurant--Yee’s--and Jack Ruby, I presume, saw Fred’s act and came
over to the table and introduced himself to Fred and myself. I did not
know him prior to that and asked Fred and myself to come to his club,
which we did the next evening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that before the President was assassinated?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Oh, that was quite some time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Several months?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Oh, I really can’t say--it was just 4 or 5 or 6 months, I
suppose, and then I saw Mr. Ruby. After that I went to his club a few
times. I saw Mr. Ruby approximately a week before the assassination.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, when you talked with two FBI agents, Joseph Peggs
and Alvin Zimmerman, you indicated that the last time you saw Ruby at
the Carousel Club was on November 20; that would be 2 days before the
assassination?

Mr. KRAVITZ. It’s very possible.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would your memory have been more accurate at that time
than it is now?

Mr. KRAVITZ. I said a week--it could have been 2 or 3 days. It was very
near to the assassination of the President.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time did you arrive at the club that night?

Mr. KRAVITZ. I had a date, so I would say it was in the evening, I’m
not sure, but about 9 o’clock or after.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how much time did you spend with Ruby that night?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Well, he came over to the table and talked with my date
and myself--I didn’t spend a lot of time with him, really, I didn’t
spend a lot of time with him--Jack knew me and we were acquaintances.
We weren’t what you would call close friends.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention anything at that time about President
Kennedy?

Mr. KRAVITZ. No; nothing at all. I never discussed politics, I never
got into anything with Mr. Ruby about politics, and probably I said
something about the time of day and how are you and so forth and so on.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you discuss with him, though, aside from the time
of day--what seemed to be Ruby’s particular interest?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Well, I never discussed much with Mr. Ruby. At one
time--when all this happened, it was in the Jewish holidays, and one
incident I had with Mr. Ruby, he called me up once and wanted me to go
with him to the synagogue, but I didn’t know Mr. Ruby well and I didn’t
really want to go to the synagogue with Mr. Ruby--he is a character and
so on and so forth, and I think he got a little aggravated with me, and
I didn’t see him after that until the night which you are talking about.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was this telephone request before you saw him?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Oh, God, I would say months--I didn’t go back to that
place until this young lady I was out with that night wanted to go
there, and I said to her, “Well, I really don’t want to go there,” and
said that I had had words with Jack Ruby, and I don’t know how she
interpreted that, but anyway, I did go back and I shook hands with him
that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he call you in connection with any high holiday?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Yes; there was one of the high holidays--it was either,
if you are familiar with them, it was either Rosh Hashanah, or Yom
Kippur--it was one of those; but I can’t be sure which.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to call you?

Mr. KRAVITZ. That’s a good question; I don’t know. The night that we
were out with Freddie Barber, we talked until 3, 4, or 5 o’clock in the
morning--Freddie Barber and myself--we went out after, for breakfast,
and I think he might have been impressed with me: I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he know what business you were in at that time?

Mr. KRAVITZ. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the clothing business at that time?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have any reason to think that you might have had a
connection with Barber that he wanted to use?

Mr. KRAVITZ. There is a possibility, I don’t know, he might have
thought that I was Freddie’s agent, or something, but I don’t think
that came up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he talked to you about his religious beliefs?

Mr. KRAVITZ. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Or his synagogue attendance before that?

Mr. KRAVITZ. No; not really. I knew he was Jewish. He mentioned to me
going to the rabbi, not the synagogue, but at other times, that he went
to the rabbi for counsel or something like that, but we never got into
any discussions on religion.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Barber Jewish?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would Jack have realized that?

Mr. KRAVITZ. I think so; but our religion per se.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he ever suggested to you that he would like you to
work for him or anything like that?

Mr. KRAVITZ. No; that evening, he suggested the possibility of our
rooming together. This is the first time we met and I just, you know,
laughed; I didn’t say anything. I had no intention of ever rooming with
Mr. Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did he happen to mention that?

Mr. KRAVITZ. I really don’t know; that’s the first time I was with
him--this was the evening that Freddie and I were together with him and
the first time I ever met the man and I guess that he was interested
in moving into an apartment. In fact, he was interested in moving into
this Spa, this new building over here, and was looking for a roommate.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that the one on Turtle Creek?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate to you that he had made any application to
move in there?

Mr. KRAVITZ. The building wasn’t completed; I think he possibly
had checked into it, but I really don’t know about filling out an
application for it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would that have been back in the summer of 1963?

Mr. KRAVITZ. If we could find when Freddie Barber played in Dallas, I
could tell you exactly; he’s a friend of mine and he plays for 2 weeks
at Club Village, which is a club here in town. It possibly could have
been last summer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think there was any homosexual interest on Jack’s
part?

Mr. KRAVITZ. No; that question was raised to me before. I really have
no idea as to Jack’s sexual prowess, I certainly don’t think the man
was homosexual, but then, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This must have been a rather lengthy conversation you had
with him?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Yes; his club closed at 12 or 1 o’clock, and Freddie and
myself and Jack and George Senator, his roommate went to a restaurant,
and we sat and talked until--it must have been 4 o’clock in the morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have occasion to see George Senator at any time
after Oswald was shot?

Mr. KRAVITZ. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you had occasion to see any of the people who are
associated with the Carousel Club since Oswald was shot?

Mr. KRAVITZ. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The night that you saw Ruby shortly before the
assassination, did you notice anything unusual about his behavior?

Mr. KRAVITZ. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever tell you anything about any interest he had
in Cuba?

Mr. KRAVITZ. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of anything else that might be of interest
to us we haven’t covered?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Not to my knowledge; now.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, I am going to mark for identification what
is a one-page document prepared by FBI Agents Peggs and Zimmerman
as a result of an interview they had with you on November 27, 1963.
I’m going to mark this exhibit as Herbert B. Kravitz, July 24, 1963,
Exhibit 1, and I will hand it to you and ask you to look at it and tell
me if that is an accurate report of what you said to Zimmerman and
Peggs on November 27?

Mr. KRAVITZ. Well, this is an error here; Parker--that name is
wrong--it should be Fred Barber, otherwise that’s pretty accurate.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, let me ask you to sign it in a conspicuous spot
not far from where it has been marked.

(Mr. Kravitz signed instrument referred to.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; thank you very much. I have no more questions.
I appreciate your coming here tonight.

Mr. KRAVITZ. All right; I was glad to come.



TESTIMONY OF JOSEPH ROSSI

The testimony of Joseph Rossi was taken at 8:05 p.m., on July 24, 1964,
in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and
Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel
of the President’s Commission.


Mr. GRIFFIN. I am Burt Griffin and I am a member of the general
counsel’s staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of
President Kennedy.

We have a routine procedure of giving a little information before we
start to take testimony, about what we are doing here. I should say
first of all, that I should tell you that the President’s Commission
was set up by Executive order of President Johnson and a joint
resolution of Congress. The Commission has been directed to investigate
the assassination of President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey
Oswald and to report back to the President on the facts that we are
able to determine in that connection. We have asked you to come here
this evening in particular because you have known Jack Ruby and you saw
him not too long before President Kennedy came to town.

I have been specifically designated under the rules of the Commission
to take your testimony. You have indicated that you didn’t get your
letter until a day or so ago. The rules provide that you are entitled
to 3 days’ notice before appearing here, and I might ask you if you are
willing to go ahead now without the 3 days’ notice?

Mr. ROSSI. Well, what would the notice be in effect for?

Mr. GRIFFIN. It would just give you 3 days to get ready for it.

Mr. ROSSI. Well, I wouldn’t be any readier, I don’t know, if perhaps
talking to a counselor or something like that; but it wouldn’t
necessarily gain anything--I’m just wondering why they waited this long
to get to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, we have had a lot of work to do and we all wish
we could have gotten around a little sooner than we did. If you are
willing to go ahead, let me ask you to raise your right hand and be
sworn.

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be
the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. ROSSI. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state your full name to the court reporter?

Mr. ROSSI. Joseph Rossi.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how do you spell your last name?

Mr. ROSSI. R-o-s-s-i [spelling].

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where do you live now, Mr. Rossi?

Mr. ROSSI. At the present I reside at 4433 Purdue Street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is that in Dallas?

Mr. ROSSI. Dallas, Tex.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mr. ROSSI. October 24, 1914.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you married?

Mr. ROSSI. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What business are you in?

Mr. ROSSI. Well, at present I am primarily in real estate; or I
should say, back into the food or restaurant business and various
enterprises. I conduct and am interested in two or three different
things; investments, and small little businesses, and what have you;
but basically always handling some real estate.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you a real estate broker?

Mr. ROSSI. Yes; I am.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you run a brokerage agency of any sort?

Mr. ROSSI. Yes, I am an agent on my own. I operate singly and cooperate
with other brokers. I deal mostly in commercial or resort type
properties and primarily representing the South Padre Island Investment
Company.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you happen to know Jack Ruby?

Mr. ROSSI. Well, for one thing, we came from the same town and the same
neighborhood. I met Jack Ruby when he was here in Dallas and I had
been in the entertainment business, in a sense, and worked around with
shows and clubs and expositions, and naturally knew quite a few of the
club operators around town, or restaurant men and one way or another,
ran into Jack Ruby, who was operating a club, and, because of our same
birthplace, or growing up in the same town, in the same neighborhood,
gave us something in common to talk about. I actually didn’t know him
in Chicago and our paths never crossed there. I am surprised, they
didn’t because we resided pretty close in the same area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long ago was it that you first met Jack?

Mr. ROSSI. Oh, I would say about 12 or 15 years ago, something like
that, and maybe longer now. These months go by now--but I don’t really
know that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Over the years, how often did you see him?

Mr. ROSSI. Well, I might see him possibly every day for weeks or so at
a time, and then it might be I would not see the man for a year, so to
speak.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would it come about that you would happen to see him
every day for a period of time?

Mr. ROSSI. Well, in the latter years I had a coffee shop in the
Mercantile Security Building and Jack had his attorney--who officed
there in that building.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Which attorney was that?

Mr. ROSSI. Stanley Kaufman; and Jack would have occasion to see him
on business or one thing or another. Now, during that period of time
I saw Jack, you might say, fairly often--once every couple of weeks
or sometimes two or three times a week, but sometimes possibly for
not a month. Prior to that time, in his different club enterprise or
what have you, because my group--myself and my wife would like to
dance or occasionally I go out and look for something in the way of
various ideas and call on different people, and possibly stop into a
club or two, and I would run into Jack Ruby, or possibly meet him out
in a bowling alley or something of that nature. I’m not Jewish, but I
patronize them because I like Jewish food and I would occasionally run
into Jack in a kosher restaurant or somewhere, or anywhere in town, and
I am fairly well known in the downtown area of Dallas and so we would
always have a little something to say.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the fall of 1963, were you ever involved in any
business enterprise with him?

Mr. ROSSI. With Jack?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ROSSI. I never really was involved in any business enterprise with
him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to discuss with Jack the
opening of a new nightclub?

Mr. ROSSI. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did Jack first talk to you about that?

Mr. ROSSI. That was a day or two before the assassination--that must
have been about the 20th of November.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did that discussion take place?

Mr. ROSSI. Now, I’m going to just take a guess at the dates when I say
the 20th--it may have been the 19th. I would have to go back and check
some of these things, but I would say roughly somewhere about the 20th,
or the day before I left for Brownsville. I was going to a brokers
meeting on South Padre Island.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Maybe this would refresh your recollection. When you were
interviewed by the FBI on November 25, they have reported that you
told them you thought it was the 20th that you saw him; would your
recollection at that time have been accurate?

Mr. ROSSI. I think that’s about correct, because I believe the
President was assassinated on the 22d.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That’s right.

Mr. ROSSI. That’s when I arrived in Brownsville. I left the previous
evening, and I believe it was just the day before, when I spoke to
Jack, so I would say it was the 20th--that’s--the 20th is about
correct, and at that time he discussed two things with me. He had with
him a novelty item--a twistboard. It was not very large, about a foot
or so square and on a swivel base or a bearing base, and he was quite
enthused about it. I go in for some of those little promotional deals
of one nature or another, and Jack knew it so he asked my opinion of it
and told me it looked like it was going to be a hot item. His brother
or relative or some friend, I forget whether it was locally or in
Chicago, manufactured them so he had the exclusive or the complete deal
on it. The object was to get on the board and twist and that exercised
you. In other words, it would be an entertaining or amusement type of
exercise--both at the same time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you express any opinion to him?

Mr. ROSSI. Yes; I thought it had good possibilities, and had pretty
good appeal, and there were various other things that we spoke of
regarding it. He was looking for a little financing or possibly wasn’t
looking for financing. I am trying to recollect whether he wanted some
financing on it or not, and how much it would take to go into it on a
big scale. He asked if I was interested and I told him at the time I
wasn’t. I was pretty well tied up and involved with the South Padre
Island resort properties and we were doing some promotional work on the
sales of the island, so I told him I would take a raincheck on it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the other business you talked about?

Mr. ROSSI. The other business he also discussed with me was regarding
a new type of club--a new type of nightclub, and that it was going to
be better, or upgraded from what he had, and I think it was going to be
somewhat of a girlie club--swankier and all that--I don’t know whether
it was going to be a burlesque or not--I don’t quite recall.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him mention anything about a Playboy
Club?

Mr. ROSSI. No; at least he didn’t mention that to me in regards to
this, or, he may have been thinking something about that--that may have
been the reference to the girls or something of that nature, because it
wasn’t going to be just a burlesque type of club. It was going to be a
lot on the higher scale and he wanted to know if I would be interested
in it. I told him that, again at the present time I wasn’t interested
but not to exclude me, if things changed or time permitted, that I
would consider looking into it further, and if it was worthwhile I
would, or if I could afford to, I would participate in it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he want you to invest some money in it?

Mr. ROSSI. Not necessarily; Jack was always pretty nice to me. He had
made me offers a number of times to locate my brokerage office up in
his club area--he had some spare office space there--and he says, “You
are welcome to the space anytime you want it, desk, or equipment.” Then
at the time I had been looking around for one or two other coffee or
snackbar locations, and he informed me that he had equipment up there
in his club--kitchen equipment and so forth--and he would be more than
glad to give it to me. He was very generous; he said, “If you want it,
just take what you need.” He said, “Anything I’ve got you can have.”
I have never really done anything special for, or given Jack anything
of any nature--it’s just that possibly I understood him a little bit
better than the average person. We have something in common, as I say,
from our childhood days.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What exactly did he want you to do with this club?

Mr. ROSSI. Oh, nothing; he knows I’m pretty good as a manager or as an
operator--my background has been with food and entertainment. He knew
I understood that end of the business. I’m not a drinker or anything
like it, and I am pretty steady and dependable.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did this conversation take place?

Mr. ROSSI. This took place in the arcade or the lobby of the Mercantile
Security Building in front of where, and also in, what used to be my
snackbar or coffeeshop.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Jack arranged to meet you there?

Mr. ROSSI. No, no. It was one of those chance meetings where he saw me
and then just stopped and started talking about the twistboard. I had
no idea of even being there at the coffeeshop, let alone that I would
see Jack there. My time was limited, because I was making preparations
to leave town that night, and I was talking about this the day
before--that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What time of the day was it when you saw him?

Mr. ROSSI. Oh, I would say it was in the a.m., about, somewhere around
10--possibly 11 o’clock.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack indicate to you what his business was at the
Mercantile Security Building?

Mr. ROSSI. Well, he was going up on the assumption also--I don’t recall
positively if he mentioned that particular fact, I think he did say
something in regards to going up and seeing Mr. Kaufman, his attorney,
and looking into this twistboard--I don’t recall whether it was in
regards to possibly setting up a corporation, or whether it had to do
with getting the patent rights or the exclusiveness or something of
that sort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And he specifically mentioned that he was going up to see
somebody about the legal aspects of the twistboard.

Mr. ROSSI. Well, as I say, I don’t recall just why he was going up to
see him, whether it was about the legal aspects of the board or what,
but he did mention he was going up to see Mr. Kaufman in regards to
something on the twistboard.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could it have been that he mentioned he was going up to
see another attorney about the twistboard?

Mr. ROSSI. I believe he mentioned a tax problem, or at least I
mentioned it--there was something or a discussion about a tax problem,
inasmuch as he had been involved with a tax problem with the Internal
Revenue Department and during the discussion of the club deal. Of
course I was aware of his tax problem, and I wasn’t going to especially
participate in any venture with Jack because I knew that he did have
problems of this nature and I didn’t want to become involved. But at
the same time I did bring up the fact that, “Well, won’t this interfere
with this business venture or anything like that, that you have?” And
he made mention then that he had accumulated or gotten some money or
was in the process of getting this all taken care of. That he had the
tax problem settled or finalized, and that they would meet with some
agreement as to how much or just what amount they would settle for. He
was going to get that all squared off, and I believe he made mention of
the fact that he had some money set aside for that required settlement.
I don’t know the exact amount of money, but I think it ran up a fair
size sum.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did this conversation last, approximately?

Mr. ROSSI. Oh, I would say 20 or 30 minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody else present?

Mr. ROSSI. Well, yes; one of my former employees was there--well two
of them--actually, one is still managing the coffeeshop and the other
happened to be in the coffeeshop at the time, and I believe he was
there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What are their names?

Mr. ROSSI. One of them is Joseph Di Gangi and the other is John Trace,
and I believe at the time I was talking to Mr. Di Gangi when Jack came
walking down the hall and came in. That’s how I got to talking to Jack,
and I believe Mr. Di Gangi became engrossed in talking to somebody else
and Jack and I stepped, out in the hall in order to make a little more
room for the customers in the snackbar and we did our talking out there.

Is that phone hooked up all right; could I call my present business and
let them know where I am at?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Certainly.

(At this point the witness, Mr. Rossi, made a telephone call which
lasted approximately 3 minutes.)

Mr. ROSSI. Now, before we continue, let me say this--you led me into
this deposition without any preliminary discussion. I noticed though
in the request to appear that it made mention of the fact that my
testimony would be taken and then allowed for me to read and correct
and approve--right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ROSSI. So, that answers that question there, because inasmuch
as this took place--when the incident took place I was down in the
valley in Brownsville and talked to the news reporter there--they
have--I guess because of space and one thing or another taken it out
of context--your conversation and they use what they want and at times
when you are expanding on something which you don’t necessarily feel
like that that is what he is going to print, or, you are just voicing a
casual opinion, he might pick that up and make that the important part
of his text, and the part that you wanted to say he didn’t, and as much
as one of the things I did mention to him, and they took this writeup
and it didn’t appear, was to me important in the sense that I said,
“I’m sure that the people of Dallas were more and even greater shocked
than anybody else anywhere and that the Dallas people for the many
years that I have lived there have all been fine, good people, and all,
and this is a thing that happened in my estimation just out of a clear
blue sky.”

The reason I mentioned it to them--at this point, was the fact that
already I could see the attitudes and the feeling of the people all
around, but he made no mention of that fact in the paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did that appear--in the Brownsville paper?

Mr. ROSSI. Yes. Another thing I want to get in here, and I want to set
this in the record before any other testimony that I give, and that
is, that what I say is without prejudice against Dallas or anybody or
anything. There is a certain attitude that I feel was wrong and has
been somewhat corrected as this all took place. Emotionally everybody
was pretty well upset and all and what I am describing here, took place
before anybody else in the country, or anyone had interviewed Ruby,
and, important thing that I want to state now is that I knew Ruby--that
Jack Ruby was capable of doing what he did regarding Oswald, even prior
to my knowing that Jack Ruby actually did it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you know that?

Mr. ROSSI. Well, to clarify it, let me say this: We had just broken
up or finished a meeting that the real estate brokers on the island
were having regarding the Padre Island development and promotion, when
someone came in from the hotel lobby--we were at the Island Hotel or
Motel, and said that they had just shot Harvey or Lee Oswald--somebody
had just shot him. One thing led to another--they were going to reshow
it, at least we didn’t see the actual first film of the shooting, so to
speak, but they were going to reshow it, so a number of us went out to
the lobby of the motel to see the TV showing of it, and while standing
there we saw the event take place and then the announcement came
through that the one who murdered or shot Harvey Lee Oswald was Jack
Ludi. There was a Jack Lodi or Ludi or something like that and standing
next to me was Mr. John O’Sorio, who is an attorney, and also the
counsel for the company down there, and one of the participants and he
turned to me and he asked me--he says, “Joe, you are pretty well known
in Dallas, at least you know quite a number of people in Dallas, do you
know Jack Lodi,” and I replied, “No, I don’t know any Jack Lodi or Jack
Luby or Jack Lucas”--whatever it might have been that he said, but I
said, “If they had said or made mention of the fact that it was Jack
Ruby who had shot Oswald,” I says, “I wouldn’t be too much surprised.”

Then, he asked me why and I says, “Well, he just happens to be that
type of a person. He is impulsive and emotional and everything and he
probably felt like he was doing something that--a favor or something.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. What experiences had you had with Jack Ruby before then
that led you to that conclusion?

Mr. ROSSI. Well, now, before I answer that question, let me
continue--it was not but a minute or so that they got down to the
correction on the name and made mention of the fact that it wasn’t Lodi
or whoever it was but a Jack Ruby, a nightclub operator in Dallas. Mr.
Osorio turned to me and said, “By golly, you were right.” I said, “I
was right, but I was shocked also. I knew that Jack is impulsive, but I
didn’t think he would do a thing like that just offhand.”

The things that led me to feel this way about Jack is that I had seen
him or I had stopped off into his club or had seen him in a number of
discussions and had occasion to see him argue about certain points and
things and knew that he got quite emotional and quite upset. He would
be right in his own way and would have no way of possibly explaining
it to anybody and couldn’t get his point across--it would just get him
that much more excited.

I have seen him get pretty worked up over the fact that one of the
burlesque dancers was 5 minutes late in her performance and he would
just work himself up into a dither, with, “Now, where is she, why isn’t
she here on time, it’s show time and she isn’t here,” and he would
work himself up and all, and saying that he ought to bop her on the
head or something like that, and that he was paying them a salary and
he couldn’t depend on them, and I mentioned to him--I said, “Jack,
you act like this is a big George White production or something like
that.” I said, “After all, your customers are enjoying themselves, they
are listening to the emcee and he is popping off jokes and they are
drinking their drinks. They don’t even know what time it is, let alone,
that the girl is supposed to be on.”

He said, “But that’s beside the point. They pay to come up here and we
schedule a show at a certain time and some of these people, even if
they don’t know the time, are entitled to see it when we specify it.”

Now, he was that type of a person. When I mention this, I mean that he
was pretty well overwrought and quite angry over little things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear him get violent over any of these things?

Mr. ROSSI. I never really saw Jack get violent but I saw him get pretty
angry, or I say he could be violent, if somebody didn’t cool him off.
So, let’s say, that Jack, as I knew him, didn’t drink or smoke and
always dressed well, and was in as clean appearance as anybody and
kept himself clean and wanted to make a good appearance, and wanted
to be somebody socially. As I stated, here in this news article and
to the Secret Service men who questioned me, and as I mention in the
article here (showing newspaper) that because of the lack of education
and one thing or another, he was limited. He wanted to become somebody
socially or somebody important, and yet, he wasn’t accepted quite on
that status, and I wouldn’t say that the man was frustrated about this,
but I know that everything he did, basically he would try to do on an
upgrade or try to become somebody more important or better socially or
a better man.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What do you know about his friendships with people who are
engaged in gambling or other illegal activities?

Mr. ROSSI. Whether he had any of those or not, or whether he was
engaged in any activities of that type, I’m not the least bit aware of,
because I never did talk to him about anything or at least he never
spoke to me about any of that, if he was, and I didn’t know too many of
his other acquaintances outside of by sight or by seeing them around
town and so forth, but just general people and all that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have a reputation among other people of your
friends who knew him as being somebody who was on the shady side?

Mr. ROSSI. Well, I wouldn’t say that the reputation would be on the
shady side, but they knew Jack was a manipulator and had been involved
in these clubs and there had been some after-hour talk and so forth,
but they knew that his background--just like because of mine--where I
grew up--you see, it was mentioned even in the article here, it was
known as the Bloody 24th Ward, so everything in the way of shades of
different colors and hues--that all took place there. Now, whether Jack
did any of that here or participated in any of it here, I’m not aware
of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t have any information at all that people thought
he was a professional criminal of any sort?

Mr. ROSSI. Oh, there may have been one or two people and I couldn’t
no more tell you who they were or what, that possibly mentioned in my
presence that Jack Ruby--I wouldn’t say was a criminal, but knew him
as an operator and possibly had reference to him as a little bit of a
shady operator or something like that or that he might be capable of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that before he shot Oswald or after he shot Oswald?

Mr. ROSSI. Oh--yes, yes; that was before. Well, I might say, if you put
it that way--I heard comments afterwards, but I didn’t participate in
any of the discussions afterwards.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack Ruby ever tell you any of his political
attitudes--did he ever discuss any of them with you?

Mr. ROSSI. No, not especially; not to me personally, but I would say
publicly in a sense, and this goes back a little bit of time, I knew
definitely that he leaned towards the Democratic party or at least he
had a high respect for President Roosevelt.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you find that out?

Mr. ROSSI. Well, just in his talk about him and everything. Of course,
I was against Roosevelt and his policies and all, and any time anybody
would mention anything about social security or various doles and so
forth and other ways of increasing the expenses, or what have you, or
any of the things that Roosevelt reforms, I would expound against them,
and I know that Jack took Mr. Roosevelt pretty seriously, and would
defend him and his policies. He thought he was a great man and a great
President, and I thought Roosevelt was a wonderful salesman and orator
myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many of these expressions did you discuss with Jack?

Mr. ROSSI. I--oh, I would say--I didn’t especially discuss them with
him, but I would say in general discussions when perhaps he happened to
be in a group and somebody was making some comment on the issue of the
day and you know how you have a little political talk involved in it
usually.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to mark for identification a document which
consists of two pages. It is a copy of a report that two FBI Agents,
Thomas W. Crawford and Clay Zachry had with you on November 25 down at
Brownsville. I am going to mark this document on the first page, which
is actually No. 112, Joseph Rossi Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit
No. 1, and the second page of this two-page document is numbered page
113, and I am going to hand both pages to you and ask you to read them
and tell us whether or not that is an accurate report of what you told
the FBI agents in November 1963?

Mr. ROSSI. This is all correct with the exception of the last sentence,
in regards to Ruby’s hat--it wasn’t Ruby’s friends that kidded him,
but more or less just people that knew him. When Ruby might stop into
my place at the coffeeshop or something like that, or any of the old
Chicago hoodlums--now, my brother, he won’t appreciate this--he will
just about kill me, but we called everybody from our area Chicago
hoodlums--where we had grown up around there together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Mr. Rossi, let me ask you if you would sign this on the
first page and initial it on the second page, and sign it as near the
top line and mark it for identification.

Mr. ROSSI. Up here?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. ROSSI. (Signed instrument referred to.)

Mr. GRIFFIN. Thank you very much for coming here. I am sorry we have
had so many mixups, but that could not be helped, and you have been
very helpful to us.

Mr. ROSSI. Well, that’s all right. Do you want any other opinions?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any others to make?

Mr. ROSSI. I think so.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, will you state them--I thought we had exhausted
about everything, but I will be glad to hear them.

What else do you have that you think will be useful to us?

Mr. ROSSI. Well, in my own personal opinion--I think it was an
impulsive thing all the way around. I wouldn’t say the Dallas people
are guilty. It is just one of those things that gets started, you
might say, as a joke and becomes an actuality, and then it’s all busted
up.

I believe Oswald himself possibly had no intention in the beginning
of killing the President or assassinating him, and if I go along with
the Morning News I may as well classify it as being suspected of
the assassination, and I believe possibly he was more interested in
Governor Connally than in the President, but the number of incidents
that had taken place prior to Mr. Kennedy’s coming to Dallas showed the
somewhat emotional feeling of the people here.

Now, Mr. Johnson was pretty well liked but also pretty well disliked,
and he also had a reputation of missing ballot boxes or what have you.
The incident that took place while he was here was not a reflection
of all the Dallas people here. It was just a group of sort of people
that were there and somebody impulsively did something, because I think
basically you don’t go there with the idea of spitting at the President
or anything like that, or the Senator, at the time.

The same way, when Mr. Stevenson visited Dallas. I believe the woman
that was there was just worked up into a pitch along with many in the
crowd and why anybody would go to any place and meet any of these
people or form a group, I guess it’s all right, but I have seen too
much of it, and waving flags and carrying banners, and then you stand
there in the front of the line and the next thing you know--she got the
urge to pop him on the head, maybe, and she did, but this just built up
talk around the Dallas area.

Now, I’ll give you some of the coffeeshop talk that goes on when you
are sitting down having a cup of coffee and people are discussing the
events and politics of the day and prior to Mr. Kennedy’s arriving
here, the general talk then was, “You know what happened to Johnson.
You saw what happened to Stevenson, boy, when Jack comes, it’s going to
be murder. They are just liable to kill him.”

Now, this was said in a number of times--I would say--without a
doubt I heard the remark a hundred times, but just publicly in
general--somebody popping off and of course I know that it was all said
but nothing meant by it, but still in all we have a certain amount of
people who, I won’t say they are not literate enough, but their minds
are a little bit warped or they are a little bit more impulsive and
we have different institutions that took care of a lot of sick-minded
people, but this caused them to think and do a lot of things. I say
that subconsciously they are hypnotized with something.

I’m trying to bring out a point here that Ruby and Oswald themselves
were in the middle of all this talk, and I would say that Oswald on his
job heard quite a bit of this type of talk going on and everything.
Ruby knew that in his business dealings during the day and all that,
discussed it with friends, either sitting over a cup of coffee, heard
the same type of comments--they were just general.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you: You were not in Dallas on November 22, 23,
or 24?

Mr. ROSSI. No, I was not.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, you don’t know what kind of talk there was around here
after Oswald was shot or after Oswald was alleged to have shot the
President?

Mr. ROSSI. Yes, I do, because it may have been a day or two
afterwards--a day or so afterwards that I spoke to my wife and she told
me what the general conditions of the Dallas area was, or at least
things--but now I know for a fact that down in the valley, even they
were talking about this disliking Dallas people, and if you crossed
over to the Mexican side, even the Mexicans over there didn’t like
Dallas tags and they seemed to know who was out of the country, too.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So, it is your suggestion that this kind of talk had
something to do with it?

Mr. ROSSI. People had a fixed idea in their mind about this--that this
was all planned, premeditated, and communistic inspired.

After the border was opened between Mexico and the United States, when
I crossed over to the Mexican side at Matamoris, I know one or two of
the merchants there and in discussing the fact or the incident with
this particular merchant, I told him that I knew Jack and I didn’t
think that it was Communist inspired or through Cuba or anything and
I spoke to him for about 20 minutes, generally speaking, but I could
not make that man believe it. The man’s comments to me were, “I don’t
care if you slept with the man or anything, as far as I am concerned,
I know this was all brought about through Cuba and the Communists and
everything.”

He says, “You might know the man, but you may not know him close
enough. He may have been a Communist all of his life.”

I says, “Well, he could have been, but just from what I know and when
I knew him, I never would have suspected or even thought of it and I
still don’t.”

Now, in the newspapers here locally, when I came back to Dallas, there
was quite a bit of feeling of animosity about Jack Ruby, so I never
made any comments to anybody about my knowing anything or knowing him
personally. In other words, I just kept it to myself, and when the
trial was going on, I could have gone ahead and offered some testimony
on Ruby’s behalf, or on just the general behalf of what I knew, but I
stayed away, then, because just as Judge Sarah Hughes said, there is a
lot more behind all of this and Dallas was guilty of part of it, but
that I didn’t want to stick my neck out and have the people jumping on
me, because it would have hurt me businesswise, and what have you.

Emotionally, they were all still quite upset and it wasn’t because
of what Jack did. I believe it was because Jack had denied them the
privilege of knowing just why Harvey Lee Oswald did it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, this, of course, is something that is not within our
province to speculate about here.

Mr. ROSSI. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Our job is to find out what the facts are, and as to who
did what and where and when, and then try to arrive at some conclusions.

Mr. ROSSI. Well, Ruby was very well known by the police. He was a
friend to them. Whenever he had the opportunity to be he was a friend
to them, because he tried to be ingratiated in their field or area.

I know of one or two little incidents where he would contribute to
their welfare funds or what have you and I think then when they had him
there at the city hall and they caught him after the shooting, and the
remark was made, “You know me, I’m Jack Ruby”; it wasn’t that he wasn’t
an important man, but I believe he was trying to say, “You know me, I
am Jack Ruby. I am your friend, I don’t hate cops. I was doing this to
help you because your hands were tied.”

And I had heard comments made to the effect that many more people said
if they had a chance they would get Oswald. I had even heard this
comment made in the coffee shops and down in the valley there, that the
assassination was set up by Johnson.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, as I say, this speculation which we really can’t
indulge in but I appreciate your wanting to offer this to us.

Mr. ROSSI. Well, I am offering it because I think I have studied it and
looked at it and I know it and I feel like I know about it, but I don’t
know---I may be completely 100 percent all wet.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we will all be able to form a lot better
impression of this after we have gathered all the facts and we are able
to sit down and inform the people after we have evaluated it, and I
know that from what you have said you will probably be very interested
in knowing that we are developing these facts and we are going to
publish it in--650 pages--we are working toward, but I want to thank
you very much for coming here tonight, Mr. Rossi.

Mr. ROSSI. All right. I feel it is a privilege and if I have been of
any help--fine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It has been a pleasure to have you, and again, we
appreciate your cooperation in this matter.

Mr. ROSSI. I guess everybody is sorry it happened--and I am not a
Democrat.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I know there are a lot of people who are, are sorry
that it happened.

Mr. ROSSI. Well, if I could go back and go three times and bring him
back, because I think he was one of the finest young men we have had,
at least, I felt that way, and I felt most of us felt that way and I
think Ruby wanted to be somebody and he felt that way--he looked up to
the President and thought that he was a fine President, and at any rate
that’s all changed.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, thank you very much, Mr. Rossi, for coming down.

Mr. ROSSI. Thank you.



TESTIMONY OF NORMAN EARL WRIGHT

The testimony of Norman Earl Wright was taken at 9:10 a.m., on July
24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission.


Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me introduce myself. My name is Burt Griffin. I am a
member of the staff of the general counsel’s office of the President’s
Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

I want to tell you a little bit before I administer the oath and start
to ask you questions about the nature of the proceedings that we are
going to have here for the next few minutes.

The Commission that I work for was set up by President Johnson under an
Executive order which he issued on November 29 of last year, and also
pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress.

We have been directed to investigate into and evaluate and report back
to the President on all the facts that relate to the assassination of
President Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

Under this Executive order and joint resolution, the Commission has
been given authority to promulgate certain rules and regulations.
Pursuant to those rules and regulations I have been designated to take
your deposition. Our particular purpose in calling you here today, as
you probably well would imagine, is to find out what you know about
Jack Ruby. But if you have any information about the assassination of
President Kennedy or any other matters that we are inquiring into, we
would like to have any of that that you can give us.

Let me ask you if you received a letter from the Commission.

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, the letter is in St. Louis, but I didn’t receive it
while I was there. I was on my way when it came to East St. Louis.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I should tell you under the rules of the Commission you
are entitled to receive written notice from us 3 days before you appear
here, and I would ask you at this point if you are willing to go
forward without actually having received the letter.

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes. I spent a lot of money on this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions about this proceeding before I
administer the oath?

Mr. WRIGHT. None whatsoever, because I have been through this with the
FBI quite a few times on the west coast, and I imagine it is along
similar lines.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me ask you to raise your right hand. Do you solemnly
swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. WRIGHT. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state to the reporter your full name?

Mr. WRIGHT. My full name is Norman Earl Wright. My stage name is Earl
Norman.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you presently live?

Mr. WRIGHT. I live at 8820 Bermuda Street, Caseyville, Ill.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you living in Dallas in the fall of 1963?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes. My family was here. I will explain that. I lived here,
but the week of the Friday the President was killed, I opened at the
Largo Club in California the night he was killed, on that day, which
would be November 22.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where had you been working in Dallas previous to that?

Mr. WRIGHT. Previously I worked for Jack for over a year. I worked for
Abe at the Colony Club. I don’t remember exactly how long. I worked for
Barney at the Theatre Lounge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Immediately before you went to California, who were you
working for?

Mr. WRIGHT. Barney Weinstein.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Theatre Lounge?

Mr. WRIGHT. Theatre Lounge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You ceased working for Barney when?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, it was the Sunday. I don’t know the date, but it was
the Sunday before I opened the following Friday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would have been the 17th of November? Friday was the
22d.

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; I closed on a Sunday and opened out there on a Friday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have then 4 days in which you were unemployed
before Sunday to Friday?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, I had left here. I stayed here until Tuesday and left
Tuesday and arrived in California Wednesday afternoon, because I was
directed by my agent to be there by Wednesday night, which the club
only requested that I be in 2 days before opening.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to go back somewhat in time and ask you when it was
that you first met Jack Ruby.

Mr. WRIGHT. It was in June of 1961 when I came to work for him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to become employed by him?

Mr. WRIGHT. I was employed by an agent out of St. Louis. I got a
contract from an agent, Mike Riaff in St. Louis, to come to work for
Jack Ruby at the Carousel Club, and it was the first time I had met
Jack, or the first time I had been in Dallas in about 11 years, I
imagine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What actually is it that you do?

Mr. WRIGHT. I am a comic, MC, and I sing and do comedy, and run the
show.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in that line of business?

Mr. WRIGHT. Since 1950.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How old are you now?

Mr. WRIGHT. Thirty-nine.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for Jack when you started in June of
1961?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, it was approximately about 13 or 14 months. I don’t
really remember the exact length of time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did you happen to terminate your employment with him?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, the first time I got very ill because I was working
7 days a week consistently, for approximately 6 months, and I lost the
hearing in one of my ears and practically lost my voice. He didn’t want
to let me go, so I just quit and went back to St. Louis.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then did you work for him again?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes. I went to Biloxi, Miss., and Jack called me down there
and asked me to come back to work for him, and I came back again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was it approximately that you came back to work for
him?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, it was, I would say, approximately 8 weeks after I
left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Still would have been the latter part of 1962?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for him on that occasion?

Mr. WRIGHT. About 5 or 6 months. I don’t remember exactly.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever work for him again after that?

Mr. WRIGHT. Off and on. Sometimes as a relief for the MC there, or
maybe a week at a time, or 2 weeks at a time, but no more than 2 weeks
at a time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I would like you to tell us something about Jack Ruby’s
attitude toward the kind of jokes that he permitted to be told in his
club.

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, Jack--first of all, the first thing he told any MC,
including myself or anyone else, was that he did not want anyone to
tell any Jewish stories. Later on I realized the fact that he was very
self-conscious about many things about him personally, and I imagine
that is why I came to this conclusion. But most of the material would
be standard material for burlesque houses.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us what sort of personal things Jack was
sensitive about?

Mr. WRIGHT. His hair. His speech.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was there about his speech?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, he had a small impediment in his speech that he was
quite conscious of.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it a lisp?

Mr. WRIGHT. Sort of a lisp, and he wore a hat practically all the
time outside of the club. He was very conscious of that. And he was
very conscious of his weight. He was always going on a diet, or
weightlifting, or something, and he was always conscious of the fact
that a lot of people thought he was sort of a gay boy. Whether he was,
I don’t know personally.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was there--I take it by “gay boy,” you mean that he
was a homosexual?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was there about him that gave that impression?

Mr. WRIGHT. I don’t know. He never impressed me that way, but he
himself thought that people thought he was that way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you ever heard anyone say that they thought he was a
homosexual?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; not personally.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would Jack mention this to you?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, in a joking manner. As I remember, one time someone
gave him a cigar or something, and he put it in his mouth and lit it
and said to me, “I don’t look gay now, do I?” It was Jack’s attitude
toward people that I imagine some people might have thought he was that
way.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you be more explicit about his attitude toward people?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, he seemed, and I imagine in the eyes of most people,
to go out generally with more men than women. But there were more women
that came to the club to see Jack than men. George Senator is about the
only guy that I know that he ran around with who was his roommate, and
Ralph Paul, who was one of his partners. But other than that----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was the Carousel Club frequented, to your knowledge, by
homosexuals?

Mr. WRIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there clubs in Dallas which are hangouts for
homosexuals?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack object to any sort of religious jokes other than
Jewish jokes?

Mr. WRIGHT. Not to my knowledge. He specifically made a statement that
he didn’t want any Jewish stories at all told, whether or not they were
jokes or just stories or anything about Jewish people.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there anything else in his conversation with you or
his behavior that suggested other things concerning his attitude about
being a Jew?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; not to my knowledge, because I worked for just about
every club. He was a typical club owner, but an odd one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you had worked for the two Weinsteins, and I take it
they are both Jewish?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they have the same attitude toward Jewish jokes?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; very few Jewish people do have. In fact, I worked for
a lot of Jewish people, and Jack is the only Jewish owner of any club
that ever told me that or has ever told any MC that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you every been in Jack’s apartment?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; I was over there once. George fixed dinner, and I
don’t know, there were a bunch of kids from the club, and we all went
over one night after closing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever recall seeing any books in Jack’s apartment?

Mr. WRIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you ever recall talking with him about any books that
he had been reading?

Mr. WRIGHT. Never.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Specifically, did he ever mention to you that he was
reading any books about the Jewish people such as Exodus by Uris?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; not to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack ever indicate that he didn’t approve of Catholic
jokes?

Mr. WRIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any limitation on the sexual jokes that might
be told?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, yes. There is a standard that I think all MC’s with
quality carry, and Jack, operating as an operator here in Dallas,
realized that you can only go so far, and if you go over further, you
only end up hurting yourself anyway. He maintained as good an operation
as anyone else in town, as far as I am concerned.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever express any views on the political jokes that
you might have told?

Mr. WRIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Specifically, did you have any occasion to talk with him
about President Kennedy?

Mr. WRIGHT. I imagine once or twice he mentioned the fact that
he admired President Kennedy quite a bit and had a great deal of
admiration for him and what he was trying to do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any specific recollection of such a
conversation?

Mr. WRIGHT. Not specifically; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of relationships did he have with his employees?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, with Jack, it was an off and on relationship.
He could be smiling and joking with you one moment, and then be
mad and ready to throw you out of his club the next. He was a very
unpredictable man when it came to relationship between employees and
boss.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How was his employee turnover? What success did he have in
keeping people?

Mr. WRIGHT. He had very good success in keeping people. Jack was the
type of person that you liked and disliked, and how you can analyze
this, I don’t know. But with all his faults, the way he did things, you
still liked the man, and at the same time he could make you dislike him
just like that [snapping fingers], you know, on the spur of the moment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it your experience that once he hired somebody, that
that person stayed with him?

Mr. WRIGHT. Pretty much so. I know the length of time I worked with
Jack, and even after I left Jack, most of the employees that were there
when I came there and came there after I was there, were still there
when I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did this include the dancers?

Mr. WRIGHT. Most of the dancers, and the band was there for the year
and a half after I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was Jack’s attitude toward his competitors, the
Weinsteins?

Mr. WRIGHT. He thought they were out to close him up. Neither Abe nor
Barney were worried too much about Jack, but Jack worried all the time
about them. He tried to outdo them or capitalize on any publicity that
might bring people from their club to his club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was it that they did which indicated to Jack that
they were trying to close him up?

Mr. WRIGHT. Nothing. Just Jack’s own mind and the way he thought.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things did he attempt to do to attract people
from their club to his club?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, trying to put in different ads. In fact, he had a
billboard made about his club and some of the pictures of the acts in
the club put in the cleaners underneath Abe’s club and things of that
sort.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That is the Enquire Shine & Press Shop?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; it is right below Abe’s club and each night the guy
would stick it in the window and it advertised Jack’s club, which was
down on the other side of the parking lot from Abe’s club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack use amateur strippers in his shows?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; they all do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, do you recall that there came a time when Jack felt
that he wasn’t being permitted to use the amateurs and the Weinsteins
were?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, Jack fought the battle. First of all, Jack didn’t
like to put out the money that Abe and Barney were putting out, because
Abe and Barney would use on their amateur shows, which is held once
a week in each club, they would use on the average, if they had the
girls, maybe five or six girls, which would cost them anywhere from $10
to $15 a girl. Jack felt that that was too much money to put out, so he
would, therefore, use three or four girls. But in the meantime, he was
trying to get the union to stop amateur shows altogether.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the union have any sort of rule against amateur shows?

Mr. WRIGHT. They did and they didn’t. We never actually found out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was ambiguous about the rules which they had in this
respect?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, our constitution says that no professional
entertainer is to work with an amateur entertainer. This was the
primary rule that Jack was basing his complaint on, which I and most
of the entertainers at the time agreed upon. But you must work in this
business, and therefore, Barney and Abe, well, especially Barney,
started the amateur shows, I think about 13 years ago, and he has put a
lot of people in business as far as dancers go, and he has put a lot of
people to work. I was on the local board at the time, and we had memos
from the west coast and New York.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me, was this the local board of the American Guild
of Variety Artists?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; it is the local executive board. We were sent memos to
the branch managers that at one time the amateur shows were to cease,
or these people were to join the union and then they could work. Well,
this was complied with, and then not long after that, the people that
were head of the various regional offices were fired and we had new
memos. So actually, we never found out whether the whole thing is still
legal or illegal, but a lot of the kids that were amateurs joined the
union, and some of them still belong to the union.

But I imagine some of them don’t. I don’t know for sure, because I quit
the board because of the fact that we got one memo that said one thing,
and another memo that would contradict the memo before, so it got to be
a confusing situation altogether. When I got out in California, I went
to see Mazzie, who, when I left Dallas, was the west coast regional
director of AGVA.

Mr. GRIFFIN. M-a-z-z-i-e?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; well he was west regional director. But when I got to
California, I went up to see him to talk to him about what was going on
in Dallas. He had been fired and Bobby Faye in New York had been fired.
They went into an interim committee that took care of the union until
recently. I understand they had elections, and I forget the gentleman,
I don’t even know the guy that is head of the thing. I haven’t bothered
to look to see.

See, our union is not run like most unions. AGVA is run by the
secretary of the union, and then you take people like Joey Adams
who was president. It is an honorary thing. Then you have the vice
presidents and so forth. But the main part of the union is run by the
members of the national board.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you quit the local board here in Dallas?

Mr. WRIGHT. It was about a month before I left town, I believe.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were on the local board, did Jack come to you
about his problems with the Weinsteins?

Mr. WRIGHT. He went to everybody on the board about his problems.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he come to you?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he feel that you were helping him or not?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, when I left town--in fact, the main reason, one of
the reasons that I resigned from the board was the fact Jack thought
after I had gone to work for Barney and Abe after leaving him, that I
was against him, and whatever happened to the board, I was doing for
the benefit of Barney and Abe. In fact, last time I saw Jack before I
left town, he refused to let me in his club because he said I was with
his competitors against him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to ask you some specific questions about that
particular incident. How did you happen to go to Jack’s club that night?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, I was working at the Theatre Lounge, and the Theatre
Lounge only does three shows a night, and Jack was doing a continuous
show. I had about a 20- or 25-minute break, so I walked over to see
Wally Weston, who was working there at the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You didn’t come over to see Jack?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, I went over to see Jack or Wally, whoever was there.
No one specifically. All three clubs are within half a block of each
other, and you walk around between shows.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far did you get into the club?

Mr. WRIGHT. I got to the door.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, he asked me to leave.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether or not he had a gun with him?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether he asked anybody to go get a gun when
you came up, or when he saw you coming up?

Mr. WRIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he threaten you in any way?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; he just asked me to leave.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have an argument with him there?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; he just said, “I don’t want you in my club. You are
against me.” I said, “Fine.” So I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he ever asked you to do anything for him in connection
with his complaint about the amateur strippers?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, he had asked to bring up at board meetings the
reason why it hadn’t been cut out, because of his complaint. In fact,
I believe he called Bobby Faye in New York several times, and called
Mazzie in California several times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was any effort made by the people who were in charge of
AGVA to get the Weinsteins to stop using the amateurs in their shows?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, like I said, we got memos to one effect that they
were either to stop or the kids were to join the union, and then most
of the kids joined the union, and in that way it went from $10 or $15
per girl to $35; which is our minimum that any act can receive as long
as they are carrying a card. $35 per performance or per show, which
would be one performance of the amateurs.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Jack continuing to use amateur dancers during this
period that he was complaining about the Weinsteins?

Mr. WRIGHT. Oh, yes; he wasn’t about to cut it out. Sometimes he would
use one or two girls instead of using four or five on something.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he advertise also that he was using amateurs?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear Jack Ruby discuss any political idea or
political movements?

Mr. WRIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Specifically, did you ever hear him talk about H. L. Hunt?

Mr. WRIGHT. Not to me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever see Ruby with any political literature of any
sort?

Mr. WRIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever talk with Jack about what his aspirations
were?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; never.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Some people have mentioned that Jack sort of admired what
he called “class.” Do you ever recall that?

Mr. WRIGHT. Jack always wanted to be Mr. Big. He felt that he should
be the top nightclub owner and the top boss in town, and he tried to
capitalize on any type of publicity he could to promote his club.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you consider it unusual that Jack Ruby should not have
attended the Presidential motorcade, and yet at the same time was very
upset over the assassination?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, like I said before, Jack was a peculiar man. To
analyze his thinking within a period of an hour, would take a mass of
brains to do so, because he never actually--Jack did things like this,
where other people would think them out [snapping fingers].

I have seen him argue and get mad with somebody for no reason at all,
just because of what they said or the way they acted just hit him the
wrong way. And to say why he would do this and not do this, I couldn’t
say. As long as I knew him, he still mystified me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you ever with Jack when he had a gun with him?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; he carried a gun in a bank bag on the seat of his car
when he went to the bank.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was it his custom to carry the gun in his pocket?

Mr. WRIGHT. Not to my knowledge.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever have occasion to drive Jack’s automobile?

Mr. WRIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know whether Jack had any particular practice
concerning where he kept his car keys?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; I imagine in his pocket because I know he kept a lot
of his money from the night’s receipts. He put his money--a lot of the
time I have seen him put his money in the trunk of his car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Kathy Kay working for Jack Ruby when you worked for
him?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; in fact, we started her off as a professional
entertainer when I was there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was that the first time that you worked for him that she
started?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; well, she did a couple of amateur shows, and then he
put her to work as a regular dancer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But she had worked for him then, I take it, since sometime
in 1961?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about Tammi True, was she working for Jack when you
worked for him?

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, she came later on. I worked with Tammi, I don’t know
exactly what month, but I have worked with her. I worked there with
Millie Perelle, and worked there with Lee Sharon. I was trying to think
of the girl that was there when I first came there. She is quite a good
dancer. I can’t remember her name. But Kathy Kay, Jack put into the
business, as far as a professional dancer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At the time the President was shot, was Kathy Kay a dancer
who had worked for Jack the longest of any of the ones he had?

Mr. WRIGHT. I believe so, to my best knowledge, because you got to
understand I was in and out of town a lot of times, too, and I don’t
know whether the girls were there. I know she was there most of the
time when I came back into Dallas, so I just assumed that she had been
there all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how Little Lynn happened to leave the employ
of the Weinsteins and go to work for Jack?

Mr. WRIGHT. I have no idea; because I was not working for Jack at the
time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Little Lynn working for the Weinsteins?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes; I was working for Barney when she came to work for
Barney, and I believe, I am not quite sure, I know she didn’t show up
for 2 or 3 nights or something, or didn’t come to work, and didn’t call
or anything, and Barney fired her. I assume that is the reason she went
to work for Jack.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to hand you what I have marked for
identification as Norman E. Wright Deposition, July 24, 1964, Exhibit
No. 1. This is a document that consists of three pages numbered at the
bottom as 556, 557, and 558. It purports to be a copy of an interview
report which was prepared by FBI Agent Lloyd D. Johnson, and Agent Aldo
A. Giannechhini, after they had an interview with you on November 26.

Look this over and read it carefully and tell me if it accurately
records what you told them on the 26th of November.

Mr. WRIGHT (after reading). I think that is pretty much what I said.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You are satisfied that this is an accurate report of what
you said?

Mr. WRIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then let me ask you to sign it on the first page near
where I have marked it.

Mr. WRIGHT (initials).

Mr. GRIFFIN. As a final question, let me ask you, Mr. Wright, is there
anything that you can think of that you know about Jack Ruby or know
about the activities of November 22, 23, and 24, that might be helpful
to the Commission that we haven’t covered?

Mr. WRIGHT. If I did, I would be glad to tell you, but being in Los
Angeles during the whole time and not getting back to Dallas until
after the middle of January, I have no more knowledge than what I have
already stated.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Have you any information or heard anything which you think
might be reliable about how Jack Ruby got into the basement of the
police department on the 24th?

Mr. WRIGHT. No; I don’t. But I do believe that the way the--where the
source came from, I have no idea, but I did hear that Sheriff Decker
sent a car and a wagon, I believe, to pick Oswald up at 2 o’clock in
the morning, and Chief Curry said that he had promised the news media
that he would bring Oswald down at 11 that morning. Actually, this is
hearsay, as far as I am concerned, but I have heard that.

The only other thing that I believe, in my own opinion, the police
department is just as much to blame as Jack in a roundabout way,
because there was no reason in the world, with all the police they had,
for Jack to walk directly straight through that many people and walk up
to a man and shoot him. I personally believe that they shared at least
50 percent of the blame.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, I appreciate your frankness.

Mr. WRIGHT. Well, that’s the only way I can be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That’s right and I appreciate your coming here today. You
have indicated previously that this did interfere with a prospect for a
job that you had, so the Commission appreciates anybody who is willing
to give us the time under circumstances like that. I have no more
questions, and if you have no more questions----

Mr. WRIGHT. I have no more questions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right, thank you very much.



TESTIMONY OF RUSSELL LEE MOORE (KNIGHT)

The testimony of Russell Lee Moore was taken on July 23, 1964, at the
U.S. Courthouse, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant
counsel of the President’s Commission.


Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me start by introducing myself. I am Burt Griffin,
and I am a member of the general counsel’s staff of the President’s
Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy.

Generally our practice, before we swear the witness in and begin to
take testimony, is to give you a little explanation of what we are
trying to do here, give you some background on the investigation.

The Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President
Johnson, issued on November 29, and a subsequent joint resolution of
Congress.

Now, under this Executive order and joint resolution, the Commission
is instructed to investigate into and evaluate and report back to the
President all the facts surrounding the assassination of President
Kennedy and the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.

We are particularly interested in your testimony today because of your
acquaintanceship with Jack Ruby. My questions will be directed along
that line.

If you have any information at all that would bear on the assassination
of President Kennedy, why, we would like to have that also.

Now, the Commission has promulgated a series of rules and regulations,
and under the rules and regulations of the Commission, I am designated
to take your testimony.

There is also a provision in the rules that a witness is entitled to
have a 3-day written notice before he appears for testimony. I think
the first thing I will ask you, you did get a letter from us 3 days
before you showed up here?

Mr. MOORE. Well, it was Tuesday.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then I will ask you if you are willing to waive the
written notice of the deposition.

Mr. MOORE. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any questions about the general nature of the
testimony that will be taken here this afternoon before I get started?

Mr. MOORE. No. I have some things that I can add after your questions.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Very good. Let me ask you then if you will raise your
right hand and I will administer the oath to you. Do you solemnly swear
that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole
truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mr. MOORE. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Will you state for the record your full name?

Mr. MOORE. Russell Moore, known as Russ Knight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have a middle name?

Mr. MOORE. Lee, Russell Lee Moore.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you prefer to have this deposition designated?
Shall I address you as Mr. Moore or shall I call you Mr. Knight?

Mr. MOORE. I think Mr. Knight because this is my air name, Russ Knight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live, Mr. Knight?

Mr. KNIGHT. Auburn Heights, Mich.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And will you give us your full address?

Mr. KNIGHT. 645 Auburn Heights, Mich.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long have you been in Michigan?

Mr. KNIGHT. Just about a month.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And were you in Dallas before that?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you married?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And do you have a family?

Mr. KNIGHT. Two boys.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When did you first begin to work in Dallas?

Mr. KNIGHT. Let’s see. The last of February 1960.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what was your occupation then?

Mr. KNIGHT. Radio announcer.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who did you work for?

Mr. KNIGHT. KLIF.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you work for KLIF?

Mr. KNIGHT. From that time until about a month ago which would be 1964,
first of June.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you now employed as a radio announcer?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes, in Detroit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who are you with in Detroit?

Mr. KNIGHT. WXYZ, ABC.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us in a general way what your duties were as
a radio announcer at KLIF?

Mr. KNIGHT. Personality and playing records. In other words, a
personality radio show.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you in the news department?

Mr. KNIGHT. I helped out occasionally in the news department.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a staff of reporters employed by KLIF?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Who was in charge of the news department?

Mr. KNIGHT. Joe Long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how many reporters did he have under him?

Mr. KNIGHT. Let’s see. Sometimes four but at the present time three.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Do you recall who those people were on November
22?

Mr. KNIGHT. November 22? One was Glenn Duncan, Gary DeLaune, and Roy
Nichols.

Mr. GRIFFIN. While you were working in Dallas, did you have occasion to
meet Jack Ruby before November 22, 1963?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Give us your best recollection of when it was that you
first met Ruby.

Mr. KNIGHT. I would say, I can’t pinpoint the date, but about, I guess
about a year or so before the assassination. I met him at a place
called the Cotton Bowling Palace. It’s a place where people congregate
that work late, and I worked till midnight. I would stop there on the
way home for a cup of coffee.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us about that episode.

Mr. KNIGHT. We were just all sitting around the table as far as I
remember, and somebody mentioned Jack Ruby’s name, the owner of the
Carousel. And there were other friends of Ruby with him at the time but
I don’t recall their names.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any conversation with him at that time?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. But it was of such a menial nature I wouldn’t----

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you see him from time to time after that?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. I saw him at this establishment.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How many times would you say you saw him between the time
you first met him and November 22?

Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, no way again of being sure. I would say probably 7, 8,
9, 10 times.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever visit any of his clubs?

Mr. KNIGHT. I was down at his Carousel Club with my wife.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long was that before the assassination?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, let’s see. At least 9, 8 months; 8 or 9 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any occasion to talk with him in connection
with your duties at KLIF?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; he had, he was up at the station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Prior to the time of the assassination?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how many times did you see him at the station?

Mr. KNIGHT. Only about twice. He had some commercials advertising his
club that run on my show.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did he run these commercials to your recollection?

Mr. KNIGHT. About a week; just about a week.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About how long was that before the assassination?

Mr. KNIGHT. It was in that same area, about 9 or 10 months.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And what kind of conversation did you have with him?

Mr. KNIGHT. Nothing other than he had the usual pitch, do a good job on
these commercials, so forth and so on, and he at times would call me at
the station at night, asking how we are coming along, to add this or
put this in here. Of course, I couldn’t do that but he did call.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he advertise on any other radio stations that you know
of?

Mr. KNIGHT. I am sure he did but not at that particular time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it unusual for a nightclub operator such as Ruby who is
running a striptease club to be advertising on the radio?

Mr. KNIGHT. No, not if it’s--no. No. Because several other places of
the same nature advertise.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk to you about promoting his twistboards
over the radio?

Mr. KNIGHT. Twistboards?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you ever hear of that?

Mr. KNIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he ever talk to you about any promotion other than his
clubs?

Mr. KNIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he give you at any time a membership card or say that
he was going to make you a member of the Carousel Club?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; because it was an open club anyway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where were you at the time that President Kennedy was
killed?

Mr. KNIGHT. I was home, asleep, at my address on Barnsbridge Road in
Dallas, taking a nap that afternoon, and my wife was in Corpus Christi.
And she heard about it before I did and she called me on the phone and
told me the original news. That’s the way I heard about it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you heard that the President had
been shot?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, the first thing I did was turn on the radio. Then I
finished with--what would you do? I paced the floor and so forth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am trying to trace where you went.

Mr. KNIGHT. I didn’t go to any place at that time because I didn’t have
to go to work till 7. My shift was 7 till midnight. My wife and kids
were down in Corpus Christi visiting her mother. I was there by myself.
So I just stayed there at my home on Barnsbridge until I went to work
that night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What were the hours that you were to work that particular
night?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, as every night, 7 to midnight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any contact with Jack Ruby between 7 and
midnight?

Mr. KNIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have some occasion to have contact with him
afterward?

Mr. KNIGHT. I talked to him after midnight; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Tell us how you first had occasion to talk with him.

Mr. KNIGHT. Okay. May I do it my own----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.

Mr. KNIGHT. All right. I got through my shift at midnight. We were
trying to get an interview with District Attorney Wade for the
following morning’s newscast. By that time the newsmen had been up all
day and it was 1 a.m. in the morning and they had gone home with the
exception of Glenn Duncan who was covering the news from the post at
the station and could not leave the radio station. So he told me to go
to the courthouse and if I could get a hold of Wade--Wade had called
and said he had granted his last interview of the evening--but he said
if you get over there right fast you might get him. And the courthouse
was only three blocks from our radio station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Duncan told you a call had been made?

Mr. KNIGHT. Duncan I think had actually talked to Wade on the air about
20 minutes or so but didn’t get what he wanted and didn’t get it on
tape for the early morning newscast. In other words, he wanted me to go
over and get another interview with a special little tape recorder for
the early morning newscast.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Before you went over there, did Duncan tell you anything
about having talked to Jack Ruby?

Mr. KNIGHT. No, no. Ruby had called but this is later on in the story.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Go ahead. Then tell us what happened.

Mr. KNIGHT. I went over to the courthouse, arriving there approximately
1 a.m. It could be 10 before, 10 after, 15 after. I didn’t get to see
Wade. I looked for him and I couldn’t find him, went to the second
floor, came back, down to the main floor. There on the main floor I
encountered Jack Ruby.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Whereabouts was he on the main floor?

Mr. KNIGHT. He was near the entrance and I was getting ready to leave
and he was hanging around the entrance talking to other people, and he
saw me and recognized me. And I----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me interrupt you and ask you, by the main floor do you
mean the floor on which the assembly room and records room are located,
or do you mean the floor above that?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; I mean the main entrance, right near the entrance right
off the street.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Oh. As you walk in off the street you can either walk up
or down but you can’t walk straight into the police department?

Mr. KNIGHT. Where you walk up the steps and walk in. And he was about
10 feet up, 10 feet back up the steps or so, talking to some people
just generally milling around that I didn’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I see.

Mr. KNIGHT. I think, I am sure this is it. He overheard me ask where
Wade was and then he said, “I’ll show you.” So I said, “Okay.” Then we
went down in the basement. Now, I had never met Henry Wade before. Of
course, I had heard of him. We went to the basement. Jack Ruby pointed
out Henry Wade. Wade at that time was standing by himself, had just
got through with an interview with another reporter. Wade pointed out,
or Ruby pointed out Wade, and he told Henry Wade who I was and Wade’s
reaction was, “Oh, the Weird Beard,” which I am known on radio. “The
Weird Beard, my kids listen to you,” or something to that effect all
the time. Ruby again spoke up before I had a chance to say anything and
asked if he would grant an interview with me. Wade said, “Of course.”
Now, a point that I don’t think I--on the phone they told me to make
some notes, from Washington.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. KNIGHT. And I don’t think I have told this point to the FBI or
anybody before. I don’t think. I’m not sure. Ruby was insistent that I
ask Wade if Oswald were insane. And he asked that, he told me to ask
him that question at least twice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did he tell you this? When you were up on the main
floor or----

Mr. KNIGHT. On the way down. On the way down because I told him I
wanted an interview and so forth and this slipped out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your response to Ruby?

Mr. KNIGHT. At the time?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. KNIGHT. Negative. I wondered what he was doing there but it wasn’t,
I couldn’t question, I mean I didn’t know because there were a lot of
people milling around.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What I had in mind, when Ruby said to you “Ask him if
Oswald is insane,” did you have any response to Ruby?

Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, yes. “Okay,” I said, “That’s a point well taken,” or
something to that effect.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ruby have any other things he wanted you to ask?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; that was the thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Up to the time that you saw Wade, had Ruby said anything
to you about the assassination?

Mr. KNIGHT. Not at that time; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you had any discussion with him about anything other
than the interview with Henry Wade up to that point?

Mr. KNIGHT. Nothing of significance; no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he tell you that he had closed his clubs at that
point, that you recall?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; he didn’t mention his clubs at all.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you first saw Ruby up on the main floor, do you
recall who he was with?

Mr. KNIGHT. He was by himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Standing, actually standing alone some place?

Mr. KNIGHT. As I say, I had the impression he had been talking because
there were other people around, but at the time I did see him, on the
first visual contact, he was standing by himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall how he was dressed on that day?

Mr. KNIGHT. No. I--it’s silly. It’s either a brown suit or a blue coat
and I couldn’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Go ahead then, pick it up from where you were.

Mr. KNIGHT. All right. I did interview Wade. I did ask him a question
about insanity and he said--I have the tape some place but I don’t know
where it is. I looked for it, the interview itself, and I couldn’t find
it. But the essence of the interview, he said that Oswald, he was a,
he was not insane, something like it was premeditated or so forth and
so on. That was the gist of the interview.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ruby stand by while that interview took place?

Mr. KNIGHT. That I don’t know, if he were in listening distance or not,
because I wasn’t paying any attention to Ruby while Wade and I had the
interview. But when I got through with the interview he was over say
15, 20 feet. He must have been talking to other reporters and so forth
in the vicinity.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did your interview with Wade last?

Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, about 30 seconds.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do after you finished interviewing Wade?

Mr. KNIGHT. It took, the interview, either 30 seconds or a minute. I
took the interview on the tape recorder, started out of the courthouse
building. As I say, Ruby cornered me again, saying that he--and we
walked up to the best of my knowledge, we walked up back to the main
entrance. He said he had sandwiches and soft drinks for the personnel
over at our station, KLIF, and offered me a ride back to the station.
But since it was so close I did not ride back to the station with him.
And I walked back to the station and evidently he went to his car from
this point.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How far is the station?

Mr. KNIGHT. As I say, three or four blocks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In what direction?

Mr. KNIGHT. As you go out of the courthouse, the station would be to
the left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. That would be south?

Mr. KNIGHT. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Across Commerce Street?

Mr. KNIGHT. It would be toward the Central Expressway.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. KNIGHT. Away from downtown.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What intersection would it be?

Mr. KNIGHT. Jackson at Central Expressway. Now, I guess Ruby’s car
was down this way or some place because he went over in a different
direction.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When you point that way you can’t tell.

Mr. KNIGHT. Let’s see. I went left and he went right. Is that all right?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. That would be--you walked off onto Commerce Street
and you turned left towards Central Expressway, and your recollection
is that Ruby turned right toward the center of town?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Okay.

Mr. KNIGHT. I got back to the station. I was there giving the interview
to Duncan who listened to it, we decided to use it on the morning’s
newscast, when Ruby--I guess this must have been, by this time, a
quarter till two, approximately--showed up again at the radio station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did it take you to walk to the radio station?

Mr. KNIGHT. Four minutes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And how much later did you next hear from Ruby?

Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, I guess 20 minutes, time elapsed, 15, 20 minutes. It
wasn’t too long but at least that long.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And where were you when you first heard from Ruby?

Mr. KNIGHT. I was again, to the best of my knowledge it was out in the
hall from the newsroom. I was standing with Glenn Duncan.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody walk back with you to the radio station?

Mr. KNIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you receive a telephone call from Ruby?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; I didn’t. But Ruby had called Duncan earlier asking if
it would be all right if he did deliver sandwiches and soft drinks to
the radio station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean you say the next thing you heard from Ruby. Now,
how did you hear from him? Did he proceed to walk right in?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, the door was evidently open and it had been open
because we had newsmen going in and out. We had, there was a guy from
New York City that phoned in his reports from the radio station, a
station called WNEW.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ike Pappas?

Mr. KNIGHT. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had you known Pappas before that?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; but Pappas met Ruby there at that same time period.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Ruby came up to the newsroom where you were talking with
Duncan?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he have the sandwiches with him?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall whether he was carrying them in a box of
some sort?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; it was in a sack. And the drinks, I thought it was
unusual, he had celery juice or some kind of soft drinks with celery in
it and it was an unusual drink.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember anything about the bottle that was unusual?

Mr. KNIGHT. The bottle? It wasn’t the normal soda pop bottle. I mean I
couldn’t describe it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember that it was a bottle that had a gold
covering on it?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; that sounds to be it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. And did you have some conversation with him
while Duncan was present at that point?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What happened?

Mr. KNIGHT. We talked about generalities which I, if I remembered I
would say it. But evidently at this time he had seen Oswald in person
because he said Oswald was a goodlooking guy, said he looked like Paul
Newman. These were his words. Paul Newman, the movie star. At the time
I didn’t question where he had seen Oswald. I am sure that same day at
the police station because he had been hanging around and I think he
was there when they brought him in, on the outside looking in.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When they brought him in where? The police station?

Mr. KNIGHT. This is a surmise on my part.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You don’t have any evidence of this?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; no. But he said he did look like, and Ruby’s face,
there was no bitterness against the man. Of course, there was, but I
mean he said it kind of, “Why, he looks like a movie star.” That’s
about the only thing that I can remember other than just how sad the
situation was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember Ruby commenting on how sad the situation
was?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did your conversation up there last while Ruby
was present?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, as I say, this was 1:45 approximately, it could
have been 1:50. We had--or 1:45 I’ll say. We had a newscast at 1:50.
Actually on the hour at 2 o’clock. So I guess about 10 minutes before
the newscast. And I went on the newscast. Not with the tape I did over
at the courthouse with Mr. Wade, but I went on with my reactions to the
interview with Wade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember mentioning Ruby’s name in that newscast?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; and I said, “Through a tip from a local nightclub
owner I asked Mr. Wade the question of Oswald’s insanity.” And that’s
the way I had phrased it. I didn’t mention his name on the newscast.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long did you remain at the studio after the newscast?

Mr. KNIGHT. Okay. The newscast lasted 5 minutes, maybe a little longer,
and we stayed around and talked for I guess 10, 15 minutes. And some
time in this period this Pappas showed up at the station and asked if
he could use our facilities and call New York City.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was Ruby there when Pappas arrived?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any recollection whether Pappas arrived before
your newscast or after your newscast?

Mr. KNIGHT. It was after the newscast. In fact, I think--again this is
all so hazy--I started out when Pappas was coming up the stairs, and he
asked if he could use the facilities, and where could he get a phone.
Since he was a fellow newsman, I pointed out the phone where he could
use it and walked out. Ruby, of course, was still around.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Pappas come back in and talk with you later?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; again, Pappas ate one of Ruby’s sandwiches and drank
one of his soft drinks.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember discussing Pappas’ radio market, the
advertising market in New York?

Mr. KNIGHT. I don’t think I did. I maybe asked him how he was doing and
how a certain personality, Pete Myers, was doing, that worked for NEW,
New York City rather, and that. I don’t think I discussed advertising.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you get any indication that Pappas recognized Ruby at
that time or that Ruby recognized Pappas?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; as far as I know they were complete strangers.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did they talk? Was Ruby present during your conversation
with Pappas?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did Ruby give Pappas a card for his club at
that point?

Mr. KNIGHT. Not at this point, but I think Pappas had a card but he had
gotten it earlier.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you say that you think that happened?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, I don’t remember Ruby giving him a card actually up
there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But you learned somewhere along the line that Pappas did
have a card?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; I vaguely remember Pappas having the card.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am really trying to again probe your recollection as
to whether you actually have a recollection that the card was made
known to you at that time, that Pappas had a card, or whether you
subsequently learned that Pappas got a card and sort of inferred it was
earlier?

Mr. KNIGHT. I think that Pappas mentioned that he had gotten the card
earlier in the day. Maybe Ruby at the time offered him one but I don’t,
that’s still hazy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did Ruby at the time he was up there at the
radio station do anything which to you would indicate that he was
trying to promote his clubs at that time?

Mr. KNIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any pushing in that area?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; a comment since you made that. I guess in my
subconscious I didn’t think of that because he had always pushed
before, but this seemed to be a complete--no talk about his business
at all. In fact I didn’t even know, he didn’t even tell me that he had
closed the clubs. He might have but I don’t remember.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you remember any conversation that he might have had
concerning the Bernard Weissman ad which appeared in the Dallas Morning
News on the 22d of November? Do you know what ad I am talking about?

Mr. KNIGHT. To impeach Earl Warren?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Not impeach Earl Warren. It was a black-bordered
advertisement that addressed a series of questions to President Kennedy.

Mr. KNIGHT. No; he did mention this, but at the time I wasn’t familiar
with it myself and he didn’t mention any names. In fact, the point I
remember, in the back of my mind, but how he brought it up or the names
I don’t remember. Now, I have a question for you, or not a question
but another thing along this line that happened. He happened to call
me--Ruby--Saturday night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me--I want to take this chronologically.

Mr. KNIGHT. That’s what I mean.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I’m glad you mentioned it. Did he say anything to you
Friday night or through Saturday morning which would indicate that
he had some idea that there was an effort being made to discredit
the Jews, that the assassination was somehow a part of an effort to
discredit the Jews?

Mr. KNIGHT. No, no; no mention was made of that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What makes you think that he did mention this unfortunate
advertisement in the Dallas Morning News?

Mr. KNIGHT. I might be mixed up on the time, but it might have been
that night or it might have been that brief 15-, 20-second call that I
had with him on Saturday night.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How did--your group up there I take it broke up, your
session broke up, and you and Jack or some of the other people decided
to leave--how did that happen?

Mr. KNIGHT. Okay. Now, to me this is the most important part. Jack Ruby
and I walked out of the station, actually not out but say out on the
landing in front of the steps, still in the station but down the hall.
I remember him saying like, “Russ, you are a pretty square guy. I want
to give you something.” So we, now again, either he had them in his
pocket or he walked out to his car, but he had his car parked right at
the steps of the station where it would be no problem to get this, a
speech called Heroism from H. L. Hunt’s Life Line. Now, may I read this
to you?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes, you may.

Mr. KNIGHT. This time segment, I left about 2:15 to 2:30 after the
newscast at 2. Ruby gave me a speech from Life Line called Heroism.
To my knowledge he talked about radicals in Dallas at that time but
he didn’t mention any names. He said he looked like Paul Newman,
good-looking guy. Gave me entire speech of Life Line. Here’s something
I didn’t realize until just the last week or so. The speech he gave me
of Life Line was the speech in its entirety, the speech, the body of
the speech plus the commercials.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Why is that significant to you?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, okay. I just realized the speech--the speech itself
is what I told the FBI. I didn’t tell them about the entire body of the
content. I didn’t realize that. I just thought it was all together. The
question in my mind, if you would write, and I’m supposing this from
being in the broadcasting business, if you would write to a commercial
broadcast house for the contents of a speech, which you could do, I
doubt very seriously they would send you the entire thing plus the
commercials and two pages of Hunt products, which was all included. It
was strictly like it, and again this is my observation, like it had
been taken from a stations’ files that had Life Line. And what he had
was not sent out by Life Line if he wrote in to order the speech. Why
would they send the commercials and et cetera?

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right. Did you bring that copy with you?

Mr. KNIGHT. Now, again, in our moving to Detroit, we have looked and
looked and turned our house upside down. That was something I wanted to
keep. But I can’t find it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We ask you if you do come across it some time, we would
very much like to see it. And, of course, all we would want to do is
make a copy of it ourselves.

Mr. KNIGHT. You could get a copy of it yourself from the Hunt
organization.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Perhaps we can’t get the commercials. I would like to see
the item you described. Are you under the impression that this is not
the thing that would be sent out by Life Line?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. I wouldn’t see why they would send the commercials
out. Maybe they do, but again I don’t know. And another point that hit
my mind along these lines, maybe, where would he obtain such a copy of
this? Who would give it to him?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, are you familiar with the Dallas State Fair? Did you
attend the Dallas State Fair?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall at the Dallas State Fair that H. L. Hunt had
a booth?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see any of the literature that was distributed at
that booth?

Mr. KNIGHT. No, no. The copy that he gave me of this was rather soiled,
but I don’t know if it was soiled with use or maybe somebody could
have given it to him just lately.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Soiled in a manner that indicated that somebody had read
it, or that it had just been neglected?

Mr. KNIGHT. No, that it had been folded up and read. It was a new piece
of paper. It had been folded and unfolded and folded and unfolded and
read.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Ruby say about Life Line?

Mr. KNIGHT. Again this is strange, and I don’t know why he should pick
me to give this to but he said, “You seem like a square guy, why don’t
you look this over and read it?”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate any opinion as to his approval or
disapproval as to the contents of that?

Mr. KNIGHT. No, no. At the time--it struck me as kind of odd when I
look back on it--at the time I couldn’t care less. But when I look
back on it it did strike me as rather odd because he seemed to have no
opinion, and I couldn’t figure why he gave me the copy of the speech if
he believed it. I thought, my first impression was that he thought this
was the form of radicalism that was sort of mumbled and talked about a
little bit.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did he say about radicalism?

Mr. KNIGHT. This is a word I use. I don’t think he even mentioned
radical. But he did mention along with it a word which I can’t recall
in this Saturday night conversation. I don’t think he used the word
radical but I can’t think what he used, but we did discuss that area.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was he talking about people who were of the John Birch
Society character, the rightwing radicals, or was he talking about the
Lee Harvey Oswald type radicals?

Mr. KNIGHT. That I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he indicate approval or disapproval of radicals?

Mr. KNIGHT. Disapproval.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did the conversation indicate in any way that he thought
there might be any connection between what you are calling radicalism
in Dallas and the assassination?

Mr. KNIGHT. No, he didn’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, can you be a little more explicit on what you think,
what you recall of this discussion about radicalism, what it consisted
of?

Mr. KNIGHT. Ruby seemed, he had the speech but he didn’t seem to be
cognizant fully of what the speech was or actually what side that he
stood on. Again he just mentioned, and I know this is rather ambiguous,
I’m just kind of confused.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. KNIGHT. But he did mention a group in Dallas that hated President
Kennedy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention this group by name?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; just mentioned like there is an element here that
hates, that hated Mr. Kennedy.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; did he indicate that he had any specific people
in mind?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; in fact I asked him. I saw the copy of Hunt and his
Life Line called Heroism, and myself, I have always thought, I think
Hunt is a definite radical. I think he’s about halfway out of it in
common terms. And I mentioned to him, I said, I think now again, I
think I said, “Do you mean the Hunts?” And he didn’t reply either yes
or no, just kind of, because I don’t know if he even knew the term,
Hunt or not. I’m sure he did but he didn’t seem to recollect it, the
name, or any more about it when I brought it up. That was late at night
and I was tired.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he mention any other names?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; Hunt was the name that came to my mind, Life Line,
especially after he gave me the speech.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What radio station in Dallas has a Life Line broadcast?

Mr. KNIGHT. KLRD; I think, KLRD.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know the people in the news department of KLRD?

Mr. KNIGHT. Not on a personal basis. I have talked with them maybe
twice.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you recall some of the names of the people in that
department?

Mr. KNIGHT. Frank Gleiber in sports. He doubles up in sports and news.
There’s a guy that was the head of the “After” Union down there. He was
head of the news department. Ray somebody; I think.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Does anything in your experience suggest anything to you
about why Ruby would have picked up such an advertisement in the first
place?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; one more comment on my part. I mentioned to the FBI and
too, I was actually subpenaed for the trial by Belli, Ruby’s lawyer,
which I didn’t understand, which to me, the speech “Heroism,” the
people I told about it just seemed to kind of, OK, but no point was, I
mean I was not asked to recall anything or really talk about it. They
seemed to not think it was a very important part. And I thought it was.
It seemed to me very important. But I did mention it, mentioned as much
as I recall, but they didn’t seem to be interested in it and I thought
they knew more about----

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ruby say anything to you which would indicate whether
or not he had actually read the radio script?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; but he told me to read it, and evidently he had read it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything to you which would indicate what his
feeling was about the substance of that radio script?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; there again is the hazy part. He seemed to be giving it
to me for me to read it just to get my impressions of it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you have any impression that he was looking for you to
tell him whether he should agree or disagree with the content?

Mr. KNIGHT. That is a possibility.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was said that might indicate that to you?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, for the simple matter of him not being yes or no
about it. He just like, here’s the speech, read it. He didn’t seem to
have any, although at the time I assumed that--I feel like I’m talking
in circles--I assume that he did or had read it and did not agree with
this theory that was portrayed in the copy of “Heroism” but wanted to
see what my reaction to it would be.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What made you think he didn’t agree with it?

Mr. KNIGHT. See, I’m speculating; I don’t know. That was my first
reaction. And then we just broke up after that. I went my way and in
fact I think I went back up to the station and he went out to his car.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Ike Pappas left at the time you walked out?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; I think Pappas was still there when I left. I’m sure he
was.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right; did anybody else come up to the station with
Pappas?

Mr. KNIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you do anything else that night?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; I went straight home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did you do the next day?

Mr. KNIGHT. The next day? Well, let me see. I think I slept; I went
home and took myself something to eat, it must have been 4:30 or 5 that
morning, and went to bed and didn’t get up until--I had received a
call at 9 o’clock that morning from a news friend of mine from Kansas
City, and I was up, maybe just about a minute; I went back to sleep and
didn’t wake up until 3 or 4 that afternoon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Then what did you do?

Mr. KNIGHT. Turned on television; laid around the house. I have to go
in at 6 on Saturday night, 6 to midnight.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Ruby called you by the time you went to the station?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; he didn’t call me at the house. I guess he didn’t even
know my number. So I got to the station about 6. And, of course, we
had, had gone, we were top 40 so to speak, play the hit records. We
were playing albums. And I didn’t have anything to do except cut in
with the station breaks and news items that pertained to the situation.
And I guess it was between 6 and 8 sometime, I didn’t pinpoint it. Ruby
called and wanted to talk to me. He called the newsroom and wanted to
talk to me. So I talked to him and I got on the phone, right when I got
on the phone a break was coming after the record, and I said, “I have
to go, I can’t talk.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Station break was coming?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Excuse me; I’m trying to pinpoint the time here before you
get into it. Is it a quarter-hour station break or hour?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; half-hour, on the hour.

Mr. GRIFFIN. This would have been approximately on the half-hour or
hour when he called you?

Mr. KNIGHT. Approximately; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You had already been there some time?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. So it would have had, it couldn’t have been before the
6:30 station break?

Mr. KNIGHT. Probably between the 7 and 8:30. But now I couldn’t, I have
no way, I couldn’t even make, I’m not even going to make a statement of
that. I wouldn’t even know because I forgot all about it right after I
hung up.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You say probably because it seems to you a substantial
amount of time had elapsed, or do you have some other particular
reference?

Mr. KNIGHT. A 6-hour shift is a long shift to go on the air. It seems
I’d been there listening to the music about an hour. It seems like I
had just gotten into the shift. Not quite the halfway point. About a
third into it when he called. I only remember two things. Once again,
“Russ, you are a square guy.” I don’t know why he would say that.
This is the way he talked. He seemed to be impressed by anybody who
did something like in radio, movies, television, so forth and so on.
He mentioned, he asked me one question. Again we only talked 20, 30
seconds because at the end of that 20, 30 seconds, I said, “Jack, I’ve
got to go because” so forth and so on. I didn’t particularly want to
talk anyway. So he said, which seems to me now, and again this is
just--I didn’t recollect this until lately. I should have--he asked me
who Earl Warren was, which seemed funny. You would think a man would
know who Earl Warren was. But that was his question.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he say anything about having any photographs?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; not to me, although I did read in the paper later where
it said that, but not to me personally. But I thought it was funny he
asked me.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there any possibility that this telephone call could
have been made to you at home rather than at the radio station?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; none whatsoever.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack call you on a private line of any sort, or did he
have to go through a switchboard to get you?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, no. Well, the switchboard would have been closed.
We have two news lines which are supposed to be private but everybody
knows them. Even kids call on them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was anybody at your home during--at that time?

Mr. KNIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could Jack have known you were at the radio station by
reading the newspaper? Was your program listed?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. Well, everybody by being there 3½ years--everybody
knew what time segment I had. I was the kid diskjockey, so to speak. I
had the top rating and so forth.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think Jack knew enough about your program so he
knew you had arrived at the station?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; he listened.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had he called you on other radio programs?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; as I say, when he has his commercials on he would call
from time to time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was KLIF running commercials for Jack during this week
that the President arrived and so forth?

Mr. KNIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Had Jack advertised on the Saturday night shows?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; that was during that week 9 to 10 months prior.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any personal information that Jack listened to
KLIF much more often that he listened to any other radio station?

Mr. KNIGHT. So he said; and by talking to him from time to time like at
the Cotton Bowling Palace, he seemed to be a great admirer of our owner
again, who put the editorials out, Gordon McLendon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were these political editorials?

Mr. KNIGHT. Sometimes; not all the time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was McLendon a person that Ruby would have put in the
radical group?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; he greatly admired McLendon.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was the basis of his admiration if you have any
information?

Mr. KNIGHT. I would imagine because of his outspoken editorials that he
did and the guy stood for a lot of good things.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was McLendon substantially more outspoken than other
radio-station owners?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, he was the only one in Dallas radio that did any
editorializing; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What did Jack say to you that would indicate that he
admired McLendon?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, again I guess--see, Ruby had evidently listened to
McLendon for years before I ever came in there, but just an overall, an
overall thing. Just admired the way the guy took stands on things and
the way he talked about them.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he actually mention these things?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; he didn’t have to. It was known. He didn’t, if you
are getting to a point, he didn’t mention any specific editorial that
Gordon did that he admired. He seemed to admire the man as a whole.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Could his admiration for McLendon be in part affected by
personal consideration that McLendon might have given Jack in plugging
his Carousel Club, something like that?

Mr. KNIGHT. I don’t think so because I think he paid for that because
they were commercial spots.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What sort of things did McLendon speak out against?

Mr. KNIGHT. Take for instance after the assassination, he came to the
defense of the Dallas Police Department.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, how about before the assassination?

Mr. KNIGHT. Before? Of course, you know he ran for senator.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. KNIGHT. And he thought there was waste in Government so to speak,
but he never, never said anything against the Kennedy administration in
his editorials. He always seemed to be a supporter of them. In fact he
ran on the Democratic ticket himself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were there any civic projects that he came out strongly in
favor of?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. There was a point they were going to tear down Love
Field. It was trying to be decided to have one solid airport between
Fort Worth and Dallas, or keep Love Field, which is in Dallas. He came
out strongly, instead of having an airport between, he said Dallas
needed her airport. That was one thing. There was feeling on that.

Mr. GRIFFIN. On the weekend of the 22d, and 23d, and 24th, were any
special efforts made by the KLIF news staff to cover the events that
were taking place in the police department?

Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, yes. We had a reporter on standby over there all the
time.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, where were you on Sunday morning when Oswald was shot?

Mr. KNIGHT. Okay. I went home after my shift to midnight Saturday night
and went to bed because I was supposed to drive down and pick up my
wife Sunday morning in Corpus Christi. I debated what to do. I called
her. She said, “Come ahead.” She wanted to come home. I was driving to
Corpus Christi, I guess on the outskirts of Waco, which is about 99
miles from Dallas. I was listening to the radio and I heard what Ruby
did to Oswald.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, after you saw Ike Pappas on Friday night, did you
ever see him again up until the time that Oswald was shot?

Mr. KNIGHT. During that time period; no. I saw him later at the trial
of Ruby. I didn’t see him again.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was there a man from KLIF down in the basement at the time
Ruby shot Oswald?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know who he was?

Mr. KNIGHT. Gary DeLaune. In fact he had a tape of it that KLIF still
has.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Was a man by the name of Ken Dowe a member of the KLIF
staff?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. He was the afternoon diskjockey. Ruby I think had
called him Saturday afternoon a couple of times; yes. By the way, this
just hit me. Ruby wanted McLendon to do an editorial about this whole
thing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. About the assassination?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When. Did he mention this to you?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When was that?

Mr. KNIGHT. Saturday night when we were all talking together.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean early Saturday morning?

Mr. KNIGHT. Saturday morning.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did he make this statement upstairs in the newsroom or
when you were down on the landing talking to him?

Mr. KNIGHT. I think it was when we were out in the hall walking down to
the landing. But he wanted Gordon McLendon to do an editorial, again I
don’t remember the exact words used, but I think against the elements
in Dallas that would bring something about; yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Of course, what you are suggesting from the things you
said here is that Ruby or at least the inference one can draw is
that Ruby had the idea that radical elements in Dallas were somehow
responsible. I take it by this we are talking about the rightwing
radicals. Or were there leftwing radicals in Dallas also?

Mr. KNIGHT. Well, I’m not too familiar with the terms.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, the H. L. Hunt?

Mr. KNIGHT. Would be the rightwing.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are these the people that Ruby had in mind?

Mr. KNIGHT. I would say so. Now, again, I----

Mr. GRIFFIN. I mean you got the impression when he was talking about
the people in Dallas that had brought this about or that he had people
in mind who were of H. L. Hunt’s political persuasion?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, that we have been talking about it----

Mr. KNIGHT. The same people for instance that spat on Stevenson and hit
him with a sign, the same element.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Ruby mention that?

Mr. KNIGHT. I wouldn’t make a good detective, but it’s in my--the back
of my brain that he might have and he might not have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Remember, it’s a long time. And I don’t want to put you
in a position of saying something that is not accurate. I would much
rather have you say that you don’t remember.

Mr. KNIGHT. But I mean looking back on it, it’s hard to figure what
he actually told you and what you read about him after it happened
because, naturally, you would read all these things and it’s hard to
piece out when at the time who would guess that he would do something
like this.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well----

Mr. KNIGHT. May I make a statement?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Sure.

Mr. KNIGHT. It’s--again it’s speculation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. All right.

Mr. KNIGHT. But my wife and I both were talking about this, about
Ruby’s conduct, like he didn’t really come out and say this or this
just seemed to be sort of mixed up about the situation and the speech
“Heroism” had been soiled and evidently had been used, and it wasn’t
the average commercial content and so forth and so on that you would
get through the mail by sending off. There’s a possibility somebody
could have given him that speech, planting the seeds of heroism in
his mind, knowing that he was of an excitable nature and a very
impressionable type person and did like to be on the side of right
people, the people in the front, show people, et cetera.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any idea who such a person might be?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; but it seemed to me like too much of a coincidence
that he should be carrying a speech called “Heroism” and then for him
to shoot Oswald on Sunday morning, and for this point, maybe it is a
coincidence, but it’s been overlooked.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you think of any other places he could have got this
heroism ad except from Station KRLD or a person affiliated with it, the
H. L. Hunt booth down at Dallas State Fair perhaps, or from writing in
to wherever it is centrally produced? Those would be the three places?

Mr. KNIGHT. I can’t, but again, with his seemingly handing this speech
to me and wanting, maybe wanting a reaction from me, saying “Russ, you
are a square guy,” like maybe you know more about these things than I
do, “Who is Earl Warren,” denotes a confused attitude in his mind about
the whole situation. If somebody did know him--of course, that’s a
pretty farfetched idea.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, now, did you know George Senator?

Mr. KNIGHT. I met George at the Cotton Bowling Palace I think about
twice and I didn’t even recall his name until I read it in the paper,
or heard it over the radio, rather.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know Ralph Paul?

Mr. KNIGHT. The name is familiar; yes. I don’t know if I would know him
if I’d see him or not. I think I would but I’m not sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know a police officer by the name of Harry Olsen?

Mr. KNIGHT. Again I might but I don’t recall the name.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know any of Jack’s strippers?

Mr. KNIGHT. Let’s see. I met one called Jada up there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you see Jada’s act?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Jack have any comments on her act?

Mr. KNIGHT. Oh, he thought she was great. He said, if I remember, on
this situation, he said, “She’s very good but she’s tough to handle.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you know an entertainer named Breck Wall?

Mr. KNIGHT. Not personally. I had read about him in the Dallas paper.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I take it that you did not see any of these people or hear
about any of these people that I have just mentioned on the 22d or 23d
or 24th?

Mr. KNIGHT. No.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information at all as to how Ruby got into
that basement when he shot Oswald?

Mr. KNIGHT. None whatsoever; I just know that they weren’t checking
very closely.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How do you know that?

Mr. KNIGHT. Because I walked in there Friday night myself.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did anybody attempt to check you?

Mr. KNIGHT. No. Let me see. This was right before I went on my air
shift at 7. I walked in with some sandwiches for our reporter over
there, Gary De Laune. I walked around the scene and so forth. I
couldn’t find him. So I just took the sandwiches back to the station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did you go just before 7 o’clock? Where did you
walk? Did you walk up on the third floor?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did you walk on any other floors?

Mr. KNIGHT. No. I think the third floor--is that where Oswald was being
held now?

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. KNIGHT. Okay. I went up to there and stood around with the battery
of camera and press photographers waiting, trying to find our reporter.
Then I went down in the basement, couldn’t find him, then I left.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How long before 7 o’clock was that?

Mr. KNIGHT. I was supposed to go on at 7. I guess I was about maybe 20
minutes late. About 5 minutes till 7.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You were up at the police department till 5 minutes of 7?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. We had continuous news coverage. I actually didn’t go
on my own camera.

Mr. GRIFFIN. If Jack Ruby had been up in the hallway at that time,
would you have seen him as a result of your walking around?

Mr. KNIGHT. I’m sure I would have.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you think you would have remembered it now?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes, but I did not see him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know a fellow by the name of Jenkins from KBOX?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes, not personally but I have met him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you recognize him?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes and no. I met so many. I think he was a short fellow
but I’m not quite sure.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you have any information that Ruby received any
assistance from anybody in connection with the shooting of Oswald?

Mr. KNIGHT. No, no. I have another little item here you might be
interested in. His sister, Eva Grant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. Tell us about that.

Mr. KNIGHT. She wouldn’t make a statement through the press until,
she wanted to contact me, or Joe Long or Gordon McLendon or somebody
with KLIF. So she did get a hold of me through the station and they
gave me or gave her, and I don’t know, this was a bonehead play on our
receptionist’s part, the receptionist gave her my home number, and
since I didn’t get back in town, naturally after the killing, until
Monday night, I didn’t get it until I went in to work at 7 o’clock
Monday night. And I had a little message on the phone, “Eva Grant is
trying to get hold of you, would you please call this number” and so
forth. So evidently our receptionist at the station didn’t know who
Eva Grant was. And I had met Eva Grant with Jack. I think she was out
at the Cotton Bowling Palace a couple of times. And I had been in the
place that she had. She had another nightclub. It was just a dance
place, male and female clientele. I had been in there with two other
diskjockeys one night we met her originally. I can’t think of the name
of it.

But anyway, she wanted to make a statement so I called this number on
the spindle that she had given me. Somebody answered and said “She’s
not here” and hung up. So I tried it again and the same thing. The
voice seemed very distraught. “She’s not here” and hung up.

So I did my shift that night and the next morning I tried again because
I thought this might be a very important news item. I called my boss,
Gordon McLendon, about it. But I did get through to her and talked to
her. And she wanted me to come over or somebody to come over. Actually
didn’t want us to come over because she didn’t realize what she was
talking about at that time or how she wanted to do it. But she wanted
to make a press release over KLIF because reporters from all over the
world had tried to get in touch with her and she didn’t want to talk
to any of them. At this point I said we would send somebody over.
I remember her saying that Jack didn’t know what he was doing. She
believed it because it was a sincere thing. She was out of her mind,
hysterical. She said the same thing on our interview tape that we have
in our file, “Jack didn’t know what he was doing.” And she also said,
“Please come down, the Dallas police are coming.” So, “And bring Joe
Long.” And he took Gary DeLaune over and they both went over and got
the interview through Eva Grant.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I want to hand you what I have marked as Russell Knight
deposition July 24, 1964, Exhibit No. 1--this purports to be a copy
of an interview report prepared by two FBI agents, Alfred D. Neeley
and J. Calvin Rice. The interview took place with you on November 29,
1963. I would like you to look it over, read it carefully, and then
tell me whether or not there are any corrections that you would make
in that, any inaccuracies in there. Let me clarify this for you. What
I am really directing your attention to is whether that is an accurate
report of what you told them at that time, not if as a result of
further reflection you think there are things wrong in it.

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; I saw it.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Let me try to clear up then by one or two questions what
appears to be a discrepancy between what the FBI have reported and
what we have been talking about here today. The FBI says in here that
you stated that Glenn Duncan told you “he received a telephone call
from Jack Ruby who asked him if he was interested in an interview with
District Attorney Henry Wade and indicated that he was calling from the
police department * * * Moore stated he immediately departed for the
police department in an effort to contact Henry Wade.”

I believe when we were talking earlier it was your recollection you
went over independently. Do you recall I asked you?

Mr. KNIGHT. No. I meant to say Duncan had told me to go over. This is
right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Did Duncan tell you that he received a call from Jack Ruby?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes; and I mentioned it in our interview, but I mentioned
it with the sandwiches that he received a call asking to bring
sandwiches up to the station, but he did mention “How would you like to
have an interview with Henry Wade.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Duncan said that to you?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. At that point do you know that Ruby had made a telephone
call to set this thing up?

Mr. KNIGHT. Let’s get the time straight. Duncan didn’t mention before I
left for the courthouse. He mentioned the fact that a guy by the name
of Jack Ruby called about an interview. And I don’t think Duncan ever
met Ruby before. And he said, “Go over there and get the interview at
the courthouse.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, then, when you went to the courthouse you were
actually looking for Ruby, weren’t you?

Mr. KNIGHT. No, no. Why would I be? No. Wade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. But Ruby was going to set the interview up?

Mr. KNIGHT. No, no.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What was your understanding?

Mr. KNIGHT. Here’s your confusing point. Ruby had called Duncan about
the telephone interview that I told you that Wade had given Duncan
earlier, in which, well, it was all right, but it wasn’t what they
really wanted. That was with the telephone interview and I didn’t know
Ruby would even be at the police station when I was going over there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is it your understanding that you went over to the police
station after Duncan had tape-recorded the telephone interview?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. Well, that’s a fact.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is this something that you have a clear recollection of,
that Duncan said he had already tried to record the telephone interview?

Mr. KNIGHT. It had to be because I was--I didn’t get back to the
station till about 1:45. He had already had, he might have got it in
the meantime but he already had the other on tape.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Is there, possibly there was a sequence something like
that, that Ruby called Duncan and said “How would you like an interview
with Henry Wade,” that Duncan told you “Go over there and get an
interview with Henry Wade,” in the meantime Ruby himself got Wade to
the phone and while you were in transit to the police station Duncan
recorded the interview?

Mr. KNIGHT. That could have been.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are there any facts that you can think of which would
indicate one way or another that that happened or did not happen?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; all I know is that Duncan had the interview with Wade
but he wanted me to get another one.

Mr. GRIFFIN. It was your understanding when you left, or was it your
understanding when you left the radio station that Duncan had already
tape-recorded an interview of Wade?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; he told me to get an interview with Wade and it wasn’t
until I got back that he said he had tried earlier and got an interview
but it wasn’t satisfactory. Now, another point about Ruby pointing out
Henry Wade to me, I had never seen Henry Wade before because I usually
didn’t do news. I was on the personality and record playing. Wade said
that he didn’t know Ruby but I guess Ruby could have seen him other
places. But he did point him out. He said, “This is Henry Wade. This is
the Weird Beard.” But he seemed to know Wade.

Mr. GRIFFIN. In your interview here, Agents Neeley and Rice report that
after you interviewed Wade “when he got through Ruby was gone.” You
testified here today, you recall, that you actually walked out with
Ruby, that you saw Ruby a few feet away. Now, which would be the most
accurate?

Mr. KNIGHT. As I say, this is what probably happened on that. When I
got through with the interview he wasn’t around but when I started to
walk out I encountered him again so this would be more accurate.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Now, you also mentioned in your interview report or the
FBI mentions that you recalled Ruby was grieving for the Kennedy
family. Do you have any recollection that he mentioned the Kennedy
family in any way?

Mr. KNIGHT. Yes. I’m almost sure that he said “That poor family.”

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall where that would have taken place?

Mr. KNIGHT. That would have been around the radio station.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would it have been downstairs or upstairs?

Mr. KNIGHT. No; that would have been with everybody around there.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I haven’t any more questions and I will just throw in one
general one. Is there anything else that you can think of we haven’t
covered that you think we ought to know?

Mr. KNIGHT. No. I’m trying to go back in my mind, too, and think of the
insanity thing. I don’t think I mentioned before, that is, Oswald’s
sanity, and the Heroism thing. And I can’t think of anything that would
be significant except my own again speculation about the whole thing
which I am sure you don’t want to hear.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I think we have probably speculated on everything that
could be based on facts here. You have speculated some and it’s been
helpful. Of course, we are interested in speculations only to the
extent that they might suggest some facts.

Mr. KNIGHT. One big speculation that I told you, who could have given
Ruby the speech of Heroism. That’s it. How could he, where did he
obtain a copy. And again, well, go ahead.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t know if it’s reassuring to you, but we speculated
about this, too, and we made an effort to find out.

Mr. KNIGHT. In the trial that Ruby just sort of said, “This is it, we
have had it,” it was just a very fast job and ended the trial like they
just wanted to get him in there and convict him.

Mr. GRIFFIN. You mean the defense was conducted that way or that the
prosecution----

Mr. KNIGHT. No; the prosecution--don’t use the word railroad. Strike
that out.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes.

Mr. KNIGHT. But it seemed like they just put the poor guy in there and
nobody would listen to anything. They just wanted to get him convicted
for it and maybe ease the conscience or something like that. It really
wasn’t an example of American justice. That’s not fact. That’s my
speculation.

Mr. GRIFFIN. We thank you for coming here all the way from Detroit
and we appreciate people who cooperate as fully as you have here and
realize it’s a sacrifice for you to do this. I don’t know whether my
secretary indicated over the phone but the Commission, of course, pays
mileage and out-of-pocket expenses. And the way we have been handling
this with people who haven’t come to Washington is that we have asked
them to send to us in Washington a list of expenses they have had
in connection with this, and we will see that the proper people in
Washington check it out.

Mr. KNIGHT. Should I send like the gas receipts and hotel bills?

Mr. GRIFFIN. They won’t pay you the gas receipts. They will pay you
mileage, so many cents a mile, and will pay your out-of-pocket hotel
expenses.

Mr. KNIGHT. Will they pay for my wife?

Mr. GRIFFIN. I don’t think so.



TESTIMONY OF EDWARD C. DIETRICH

The testimony of Edward C. Dietrich was taken at 7:45 p.m., on July 13,
1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building,
Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr.,
assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Sam Kelley, assistant
attorney general of Texas, was present.


Mr. HUBERT. This is the deposition of Mr. Edward C. Dietrich. Mr.
Dietrich, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff
of the general counsel of the President’s Commission.

Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130 dated November 29,
1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, and the rules of
procedure adopted by the President’s Commission in conformance with
that Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized
to take a sworn deposition from you, among others.

I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry
is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relevant to the
assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of
Lee Harvey Oswald.

In particular as to you, Mr. Dietrich, the nature of the inquiry today
is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any
other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry.

I understand, Mr. Dietrich, that you are appearing here tonight by
virtue of a request made of you by letter by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, general
counsel on the staff of the President’s Commission, which you have
stated to me that you received on July 9, 1964, is that right?

Mr. DIETRICH. On or about that date; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. All right, will you stand and raise your hand, please?

Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give us in
this matter will be the truth, the whole, and nothing but the truth, so
help you God?

Mr. DIETRICH. I do, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. State your full name for the record, please.

Mr. DIETRICH. Edward C. Dietrich.

Mr. HUBERT. Where do you reside?

Mr. DIETRICH. 668 Harter Road, Dallas, Tex.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your employment?

Mr. DIETRICH. I am a guard with the Armored Motor Service.

Mr. HUBERT. How long have you been employed by them, sir?

Mr. DIETRICH. About 8 years, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. What is your position as a guard?

Mr. DIETRICH. We are referred to as an armored motor operator. Guard or
driver. I don’t think we have any official title.

Mr. HUBERT. You work under Mr. Bert Hall?

Mr. DIETRICH. Marvin Bert Hall; yes, sir. Bert being----

Mr. HUBERT. A nickname?

Mr. DIETRICH. Nickname; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Were you on duty on Sunday, November 24?

Mr. DIETRICH. I was off duty up until about 10 o’clock when my mother
received a call from Mr. Harold Fleming, who is one of our executives.
He works out of the Fort Worth office, which is our main headquarters.

He called my mother asking if I were there, and she told him I had
stepped out of the house for a few minutes.

I was dressed at the time, because we were going to dinner about 11:30.

Upon returning to my home about 10:30, my mother informed me of the
telephone call. And since Mr. Fleming had left his number, I called
him, and he advised me that he had something for me to do, that if I
could, he would appreciate it if I would meet he and Mr. Hall at the
Armored Motor Service terminal as soon as possible.

Mr. HUBERT. That is 1800 Leonard Avenue?

Mr. DIETRICH. Leonard Street.

Mr. HUBERT. Leonard Street?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes, sir. He asked me about how long it would take me to
arrive at that destination. I told him I would be there in about 15
minutes.

He said, “Well, if it takes 30 minutes, it is all right.”

I was in civilian clothes at the time. However, I carried my weapon
with me. On arriving at the terminal, I saw Mr. Hall and Mr. Goin, and
a few minutes upon arrival Mr. Fleming arrived on the scene.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you change into your uniform?

Mr. DIETRICH. No, sir. I had arrived in civilian clothes, and I had no
other attire to put on since my uniform was at home.

Mr. HUBERT. Did Mr. Goin change or anyone else change into uniform?

Mr. DIETRICH. If I remember correctly, Mr. Goin was in uniform when
I saw him. Mr. Hall, of course, was not, because he never wears a
uniform, nor does Mr. Fleming.

Mr. HUBERT. Now you stated that you received this call from Mr.----

Mr. DIETRICH. Harold Fleming.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you also receive a call from Mr. Hall?

Mr. DIETRICH. I can’t recall right offhand whether I did or not.
Actually, I didn’t receive any call myself. My mother, if I remember
correctly, received--she might have received a call from Mr. Hall, as
well as Mr. Fleming. I am not quite sure.

Mr. HUBERT. But in any case, you called Mr. Fleming at his home?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. You fixed that at 10:30. Are you sure that is correct?

Mr. DIETRICH. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. You fixed the time of your calling Mr. Fleming at 10:30. I
asked you to reexamine that and see if that is correct?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, if I remember correctly, my mother received a call
from Mr. Fleming on or about 9:45. As to my calling him at 10:30, I
can’t truthfully say whether it was 10:30 or not. It was on or about
that time.

Mr. HUBERT. What time had you left your home?

Mr. DIETRICH. I left home to visit the drugstore, to have a cup of
coffee, I would say about 9:30.

Mr. HUBERT. How far is the drugstore from your home?

Mr. DIETRICH. Oh, about 2 miles.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you go by automobile?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. You had a cup of coffee?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did you stay in the drugstore?

Mr. DIETRICH. Oh, I imagine I stayed there about 10 minutes; not too
long.

Mr. HUBERT. What is the name of the drugstore, and where is it located?

Mr. DIETRICH. Let’s see; well, I go to various drugstores on Sunday. I
go to Skillern’s sometimes, and Dobbs House.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you have any recollection of which one you went to on
this particular Sunday?

Mr. DIETRICH. No, I just can’t remember, because I don’t go to the same
one each Sunday. I really don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. When you left there, you came right back home?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How far, in point of driving time, was that drugstore?

Mr. DIETRICH. I would say about 5 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. You mentioned the drugstore as being 2 miles away and
taking 5 minutes. Does that help you in any way in fixing what
drugstore it was?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, there are four different drugstores I visit off and
on from Sunday to Sunday, and they are all approximately 2 miles, I
would say.

Mr. HUBERT. So that either the distance, the way you mentioned on the
time it takes to get there would not have----

Mr. DIETRICH. Would not have an effect on the time. I would say 5
minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. I think you were gone from your home about an hour?

Mr. DIETRICH. Sir?

Mr. HUBERT. Were you gone from your home about an hour?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I wasn’t gone. If I remember correctly, I left at
9:30. It took me 5 minutes to get to the drugstore. I spent, I guess,
about 10 minutes in the drugstore. That is 15 minutes.

And 5 minutes back, was 20 minutes. I told you I arrived back at a
quarter to 10, on or about a quarter to 10. It might have been 10
minutes till 10.

Mr. HUBERT. It was at that time that you received the message from your
mother that Mr. Fleming had called and wanted you to call him?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. My recollection was, and correct me if I am wrong, that
earlier you said you called Mr. Fleming at about 10:30. Now it appears
you say that it might have been considerably earlier?

Mr. DIETRICH. I was thinking I had arrived at the terminal at 10:30. I
think I called Mr. Fleming--well, I may have said that, but I really
believe that I arrived at the terminal about 10:30. I called him on or
about a quarter to 10.

Mr. HUBERT. Called at a quarter to 10?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes. To tell you the truth, I don’t recall when I called
him.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you leave right after you called?

Mr. DIETRICH. After I talked to Mr. Fleming?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. DIETRICH. I left, I imagine, in about 5 or 10 minutes. Let’s see,
it was about--oh, I brushed my hair and I had to get my revolver, or I
cleaned it, just wiped it off.

I didn’t want to get my clothes dirty, because it was a little on the
greasy side.

I guess I left about 10 minutes after he called, or after I talked with
him, rather.

Mr. HUBERT. How long did it take you to go from your home to the
terminal?

Mr. DIETRICH. Oh, I would say about 20 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. What route did you follow?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, I left my home on Harter Road, entered North Cliff,
took a right on North Cliff on Buckner, Buckner to Loop 12, Loop 12 to
Central Expressway, and then I made an exit to Ross, took a right on
Ross to the terminal, which is about six blocks from Ross and Central
Expressway.

Mr. HUBERT. You think you left your home about 10 or 15 minutes after?

Mr. DIETRICH. After I talked to Mr. Fleming.

Mr. HUBERT. So you would have left your home about 5 minutes after 10,
or 10?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes.

Mr. HUBERT. So you arrived at the terminal at 10:20 or 10:25?

Mr. DIETRICH. Along about 10:30.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened to you when you got to the terminal?

Mr. DIETRICH. On arriving at the terminal, the first two people I met
were Don Goin and Bert Hall. I referred to him as Bert Hall. His name
is Marvin.

Mr. HUBERT. They were both there?

Mr. DIETRICH. They were in the parking area of the terminal.

Mr. HUBERT. How long after your arrival did Mr. Fleming arrive?

Mr. DIETRICH. Mr. Fleming arrived approximately 5 minutes after I did.

Mr. HUBERT. What did you do? What did the four of you do?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, at the time, the company officials weren’t too sure
as to what their plan was, as to what they were supposed to do.

I think Mr. Fleming used the outside phone. There is a phone on the
outside of the building which remains locked. We had a key to it. He
opened it and called, I think, Captain Batchelor, or someone by that
name, and I walked away. I didn’t overhear the conversation.

Mr. HUBERT. Who opened the door to the company building, to the
terminal? Did you have a key yourself?

Mr. DIETRICH. I sure did. That is why I was called down there. Yes, I
had the keys.

Mr. HUBERT. Not the keys to the truck, but the keys----

Mr. DIETRICH. No, the key to the terminal. Of course, I didn’t enter
the terminal until Mr. Fleming had talked with this captain. I think
his name is Batchelor, or something like that.

Mr. HUBERT. He is with the police department?

Mr. DIETRICH. We think he is assistant to chief of police.

Mr. HUBERT. What happened after that?

Mr. DIETRICH. After Mr. Fleming talked to him?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, he received instructions from him. There was a
question as to which truck was going to be used, and they decided they
wanted to use the larger truck, which is No. 46. It is, I guess, one of
the largest armored cars in the world.

And he also found out from the captain as to when they were supposed to
arrive. And then there was a question----

Mr. HUBERT. Did you get any information as to when he was supposed to
arrive?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I didn’t, because I didn’t want Mr. Fleming to think
I was eavesdropping.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean; did he tell you what time?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; he didn’t. I think he talked with Mr. Hall as to what
time.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you hear?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I didn’t hear that.

Mr. HUBERT. All right; go on.

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, after he talked with this captain at the police
department, there was a question of whether we should take shotguns and
as to how many shotguns we were to take, and so forth, and so on. And
Mr. Fleming and Mr. Hall decided not to take shotguns, that revolvers
would be enough. Mr. Fleming’s contention was that actually we were
only going to transport Oswald from the city jail to the county jail,
and that it was up to the police to provide the necessary protection.
All we were going to do was to provide the transportation.

Mr. HUBERT. So you had your sidearm, but you did not put the shotgun on
the shoulder as usual?

Mr. DIETRICH. That’s right; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Was there any delay in getting away?

Mr. DIETRICH. None; other than the time consumed discussing whether we
would take shotguns or not.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember any difficulty in starting the larger car
due to battery difficulty?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes; we had difficulty starting it.

Mr. HUBERT. What kind of difficulty, and how long did it take to cure
it?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, I think about 10 minutes to start the truck; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. How was it started?

Mr. DIETRICH. If I remember correctly, they backed another truck up
to it, and I think they used a hotshot. They brought a cable out and
connected up one battery to the other.

Mr. HUBERT. Who did that?

Mr. DIETRICH. I didn’t participate in it because I was dressed up and I
didn’t feel like getting dirty. It was Mr. Hall and Don Goin were the
ones participating in getting the truck started.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you ride from the terminal to the city jail?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes; with Don Goin. Don drove.

Mr. HUBERT. What truck were you in?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, that I can’t remember. I asked Don Goin prior to my
coming in here, actually, as to which truck it was. He can’t remember
and I can’t either. I think it was 49. I am not sure.

Mr. HUBERT. But it was not the larger truck?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; Mr. Fleming and Mr. Hall were in 46, which is the
larger truck.

Mr. HUBERT. When you say you can’t remember which truck you rode in,
you were talking about what number it had, but you do remember that you
rode in the smaller of the two?

Mr. DIETRICH. The smaller of the two; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Who was driving the smaller of the two?

Mr. DIETRICH. Don Goin.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you actually follow the larger truck; or did it follow
you?

Mr. DIETRICH. We followed the large truck.

Mr. HUBERT. What route did you take from the terminal to the city jail?

Mr. DIETRICH. If I remember correctly, we entered Ross Avenue, took a
left on Harwood, drove up Harwood to Commerce, and took a left and
proceeded about one-half block and parked on the left side of the
street, I would say, about 5 feet beyond the ramp that goes into the
basement of the city jail or city hall.

Mr. HUBERT. In other words, you passed the exit on Commerce Street from
the city hall?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes, sir; we did. We had to.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you pass the larger truck and get in front of it; or
did you wait until it backed in before you proceeded further?

Mr. DIETRICH. If I remember correctly; we passed the larger truck.

Mr. HUBERT. And got in front of it?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes; we got in front of it, and if I remember correctly,
the larger truck had difficulty maneuvering into position in order to
back into the--I started to say cellar--basement. Actually, it was too
large to go into the basement.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you tell us how long it was between the time you
first arrived at the terminal, considering the various things you have
said happened, until you left starting off to go to the city jail?

Mr. DIETRICH. You mean from the time I arrived at the terminal?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes; until the time you left the terminal.

Mr. DIETRICH. How much time was consumed?

Mr. HUBERT. Yes.

Mr. DIETRICH. I would say 20 to 25 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. Could you give us an estimate of how long it took to make
the drive from the terminal to the jail?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, it was a Sunday morning. Traffic wasn’t very heavy.
We knew the route. We knew how to get there, and we knew the fastest
route. I would say 6 or 7 minutes.

Mr. HUBERT. After you parked, as you say you did, about 5 feet beyond
the Commerce Street entrance, and until you ultimately left, did you
ever leave the immediate vicinity of the armored truck that you had
gone in?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes, sir; I got out several times, if I remember
correctly.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, did you walk away from it?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; well, just a few feet, yes.

Mr. HUBERT. That is what I said, the immediate vicinity. You didn’t go,
say, 10 feet from it?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I don’t think so. I think I walked to the rear of the
truck, but not beyond it. One reason why I didn’t was because I was
in civilian clothes and I didn’t want to be questioned by any of the
officers in the vicinity as to why I was there.

Had I been in uniform, I would have perhaps walked around a little
more. But I stayed in the cab of the truck.

Mr. HUBERT. When did it first come to your attention there had been a
shooting in the basement? How did you learn that?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, I didn’t know about it until after I had left the
terminal.

Mr. HUBERT. Until after you left what?

Mr. DIETRICH. After we left the city hall and went back to the terminal
and then started for home.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know there was a shooting?

Mr. DIETRICH. I didn’t know there was a shooting. I remained in the cab
most of the time, other than the few times I stepped out to look around
and observe the crowd, et cetera. We were sitting in the cab of the
truck, and Mr. Hall walked up and told us, he said, “It’s all off. It’s
been called off.” We didn’t question him. He didn’t elaborate in any
way.

Mr. HUBERT. And you didn’t find out that Oswald had been shot?

Mr. DIETRICH. Nor did I hear any shot fired.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t know he had been shot until after you got back
to the terminal?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, I didn’t even know that anything had happened after
we returned to the terminal, because if I remember correctly, Mr. Hall
and Mr. Fleming, we never did see them upon returning to the terminal.
And Don Goin and I parked the truck, got in our cars, and we had plans
to meet at a coffeeshop on Ross Avenue and have a cup of coffee before
we departed for our respective homes. While we were in this cafe we
heard the radio playing, or heard the announcer on the news, and one of
the waitresses informed us that Jack Ruby had killed Lee Harvey Oswald.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you know Jack Ruby?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. You didn’t notice any commotion around the jail prior to
leaving?

Mr. DIETRICH. I heard a siren and perhaps it was the ambulance arriving
to take Oswald from the city jail to Parkland Hospital, I think it was.

Mr. HUBERT. You left, however, before the big truck pulled out of the
entrance?

Mr. DIETRICH. Yes; I heard some confusion, and I thought perhaps
something had happened, I wasn’t sure, but I didn’t know really what
had happened.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember seeing any police cars come up to the
Commerce Street exit after the big truck had backed into that exit?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I don’t remember any.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember a police car coming along and it backing in
front of the big truck?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I don’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Do you remember seeing a police car come and park in front
of your car at any time?

Mr. DIETRICH. I think I faintly remember one, maybe, moving in front
of us. As to how long he stayed there; I don’t know. If I remember
correctly; he didn’t remain in front of us very long.

Mr. HUBERT. You don’t remember seeing any police car back up so that
its rear was almost touching the front of the big truck parked in the
exit?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I don’t, because there is no way that you can--we
don’t have a mirror in front--we can’t see to our rear by looking in a
mirror in the front like a conventional automobile. Our only means of
vision would be our side mirrors, and I don’t remember any police car
backing back that was blocking the rear of the big truck.

Mr. HUBERT. Blocking the front?

Mr. DIETRICH. The front; I meant, because he backed in. May I smoke?

Mr. HUBERT. Surely; were you or Mr. Goin and Mr. Hall or Mr. Fleming
wearing any kind of overcoat on that day?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I don’t think so. It was a rather cool day and windy.
An overcoat would have felt good.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any TV mobile unit vans parked on the same side
of the street as you were, but closer to----

Mr. DIETRICH. They were right across the street; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any parked on the same side of the street as
you, but back of you toward Harwood?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, I couldn’t swear to it. Could have been. Might have
been. I don’t remember.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you notice whether there were any people moving in and
out of the Commerce Street exit where the large truck was parked during
the time that you were there?

Mr. DIETRICH. I think I noticed a few policemen moving in and out; yes.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any people in civilian clothes moving in and
out other than Mr. Fleming?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I didn’t.

Mr. HUBERT. Were there police about the big truck?

Mr. DIETRICH. I didn’t see too many policemen near the big truck; no,
sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Did you see any policemen on either side of the truck?

Mr. DIETRICH. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. As I understand from what you said, you had no opportunity
to look down the Commerce Street ramp at all, did you?

Mr. DIETRICH. Well, about the only thing I was able to observe was when
I left the truck a few minutes to walk a few feet to the rear of it.

Mr. HUBERT. But since you were 5 feet beyond the Commerce Street
entrance, you only walked at the most 10 feet from it? You never did
get at an angle so you could look down?

Mr. DIETRICH. No; I never did. I was rather reluctant to do that,
because I didn’t want to be questioned by the police since I wasn’t in
uniform.

Mr. HUBERT. Mr. Dietrich, I don’t think that we have had any
conversation or there has been any questions or answers between you and
me other than what has been recorded this evening, is that correct?

Mr. DIETRICH. No, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. I mean, that is correct? You agree with it?

Mr. DIETRICH. That is correct; yes, sir.

Mr. HUBERT. Thank you very much.

Mr. DIETRICH. I am sorry my memory was rather hazy.

Mr. HUBERT. That is all right. You did your best.



TESTIMONY OF EILEEN KAMINSKY

The testimony of Eileen Kaminsky was taken on July 23, 1964, at the
U.S. courthouse, Chicago, Ill., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant
counsel of the President’s Commission.


Mr. GRIFFIN. Our normal procedure, Mrs. Kaminsky, is for me to say
a few words at the beginning by way of introduction and then to
administer the oath to you. Then, we will go on with the questioning
at that point. Now, so that the record is clear, I will state again
that my name is Burt Griffin and I am a member of the general counsel’s
staff of the President’s Commission on the Assassination of President
Kennedy.

This Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President
Johnson which was issued in late November, and also pursuant to a
joint resolution of Congress. The Commission has been directed to
investigate and to evaluate and to report back to the President all the
facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy and the death
of Lee Harvey Oswald. Under this resolution and Executive order, the
Commission has authority to take testimony and to designate various
members of its staff for the purpose of taking that testimony, and I
have been designated to take your testimony here today. Our particular
reason for calling you, of course, is to obtain what information we can
in particular about your brother, Jack Ruby, and about the death of Lee
Oswald, although if you have any information you can provide us on any
of the subjects that we are concerned with, concerning the death of
President Kennedy, we also would like any of that information.

I might first ask you if you received a letter from the Commission
asking you to appear here?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; I did.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you recall when you received that letter?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; Sunday--well, we picked it up at the post office.
We weren’t home.

Mr. GRIFFIN. The reason I mentioned it is that under the rules of the
Commission, you are entitled to receive 3 days’ notice before you
appear for your testimony, and I take it from what you have said that
that provision has been complied with. Do you have any questions before
we start--before I start asking you questions?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Any questions about what the proceeding is about?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Well, if you have any as we go along, just feel free to
ask me. Would you raise your right hand then and I will administer the
oath to you. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the
whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I do.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Would you state for the record your full name?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Mrs. Eileen Kaminsky, E-i-l-e-e-n K-a-m-i-n-s-k-y.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where do you live now, Mrs. Kaminsky?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. 6724 North Talman, T-a-l-m-a-n, Chicago 45, Ill.

Mr. GRIFFIN. When were you born?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. July 11, 1917.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Were you born here in Chicago?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Are you the youngest child in the family?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Right.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And you have seven brothers and sisters; is that correct?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; four brothers and three sisters.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Can you tell us when you were married?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; October 26, 1947.

Mr. GRIFFIN. And have you lived in Chicago all your life?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. All my life.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I am going to ask you a few questions at the outset about
your family, and I don’t know how much information you have on the
subject since you are the youngest in the family, but you may----

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Yes; I found that out. I didn’t know so much.

Mr. GRIFFIN. I presume that as a child and as an adult, you had
occasion to talk to your mother and father about their background. Do
you know, or have you heard in that fashion where your mother was born?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. You know, I--it is a town in either Poland or Russia but
I can’t think of it. My mother has been gone 20 years, and we never
really did talk that much, although I know I have heard the town.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Do you know how many brothers or sisters your mother had?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. No; I don’t--I really don’t.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How about your father; do you know how many brothers or
sisters he had?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, he had one brother who passed away a few years
ago. That was the only one I knew of, and my mother had--she did have a
brother who just passed away a couple years ago, too; however, I don’t
know--I know she had a half- or step-sister at one time. As a matter of
fact, she is still--one of the daughters of that half-sister is still
living.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Yes. What was the half-sister’s name?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, in Jewish--I didn’t even know the English.

Mr. GRIFFIN. What would that be in Jewish?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Hysura.

Mr. GRIFFIN. How would you spell that?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. I don’t know.

Mr. GRIFFIN. Where did they live?

Mrs. KAMINSKY. Well, when I--I don’t even rememb